This content is a deep dive into the creative process, inspirations, and life philosophy of filmmaker James Cameron, exploring the journey from childhood imagination to groundbreaking cinematic achievements, emphasizing the importance of passion, resilience, and connection.
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Do you remember the first character or
world that you ever imagined, even if it
wasn't for a movie or a film or a idea,
but just a world that you lived in when
you were younger.
>> Well, I was totally enamored as a kid
with anything
fantastic or science fiction, anything I
saw on television that was fantasy and
science fiction. But I remember one one
sort I think there's a moment where
something inspires you to to take your
own action to do your own art and I
remember and this may not have been the
first but this is what pops to mind. So
seeing mysterious island which was a Ray
Harryhausen film I probably would have
been seven or eight and coming home and
wanting to do my own version of
mysterious island. So I started to draw
essentially a comic book and but it was
my own story. The animals were
different. They wound up cast away on a
raft as opposed to in the movie it was a
balloon and I just started telling my
own story. So technically that would be
the first case I can remember of world
building inspired by something else but
not copying that thing. And of course,
Ray Harryhausen was always inspiring to
me as a kid, you know. I mean, the
technique that he used of stopotion
animation is considered quite quaint
now, you know, and and we can do things
that are far more realistic, but at the
time there was nothing like that terms
of of his art, his craft. And it that
blew my mind uh at the time. And you
know, look, it doesn't take much to
inspire. Kids are imaginative, you know,
and and when you get something that
impacts your imagination and and
triggers it, and then you start to draw,
all of a sudden, my hand's going, you
know what I mean? I'm drawing. I'm I'm
choosing colors. What What color do I
want the giant turtle to be? I picked
green. No big surprise there.
>> Did you ever get to share that with the
director or anyone in the cast?
>> I did talk I talked to Ry uh later in
his life. He was pretty retired. He
hadn't he hadn't done any uh stop motion
for some time. But you know, I shared
with him some of these early stories and
the impact he had on me and so many
other filmmakers. He was absolutely the
most fantastic of the fantasy filmmakers
that were out there for many, many years.
years.
>> I can't imagine what that felt like to
him to hear that something of his had
inspired you to go on to see what you
did. I think he was just kind of dazzled
by where we where the next generation
and the one after that had sort of taken
it into CG and so on and things that he
couldn't have imagined the technology,
but he certainly could have imagined the
design and the storytelling, you know,
that were possible with those those new tools.
tools.
>> Yeah. No, I think that's the power of
art. As I'm listening to you, I'm
thinking just how many young kids are
going to go and watch Fire and Ash, and
that becomes their version of that movie
that then inspires them to go and bring
their art into the world, whether it's
film and TV or poetry or music or
whatever it may be. And how how
important it is because I he probably
didn't imagine that, you know, James
Cameron as a seven or eightyear-old was
watching his film. Oh, how could he
have, you know? I mean, he was just
following his muse and and we all do,
>> you know, but I I'd love to think that
stuff that I've done has inspired
inspired um you know, I I want to say
kids, but you know, it could be anybody
that wants to be an artist at at any
age. And you know, I have this art show
that's touring around in in Europe. It's
in actually in Istanbul right now. And
it's a lot of drawings that I did and
paintings that I did when I was in high
school and in college. I didn't know I
was going to be a big shot filmmaker
someday. You know, how could you
possibly know that? You know, I was just
the ideas in my head. I just had to draw
them. I mean, I had to draw them. And I
always say artists artists are the
people that can't not draw or can't not
create. It's like it's not like you
force yourself to create. You have to
force yourself not to,
>> you know? And if it that's flowing from
you, if it's flowing from your
fingertips or if it's voice or if it's
music or whatever it is, if if it's
flowing from you and you can't stop it,
guess what? You're stuck. You're an
artist and
>> you feel compelled.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And and you don't question
it. That's the crazy thing. At least I
never did. You know, I' I'd sit on the
the quad at at college and I'd just have
my math notebook or whatever and I'd be
sketching some girl sitting under a tree
or some guy or my own hand or, you know,
I mean, it was just always drawing. Uh,
I couldn't imagine not drawing.
>> Was Was there a part of you that felt
out of place as a kid, but now that same
skill is essential to who you are now,
or did you always feel that you
>> I think so. Yeah. Uh I mean look it can
get very solitary the the creative act
especially when you write because you
really have to just you know isolate and
you need to be in your own headsp space
and be comfortable there for long
periods of time. So it can be isolating.
I I remember and and you know I mean our
memory of our childhood is always
tainted by the stories that we tell
ourselves and we don't remember the
event we remember the story. Yes.
>> Right. Very true.
>> Cuz memory is an interesting thing. We
don't really, we're not video cameras.
There isn't enough storage in this 3 12
lb meat computer to last a lifetime. It'
be million pabytes of data and we just
don't have room for that. Right? So, we
don't remember the event like a
videotape. We remember the story we tell ourselves.
ourselves.
>> The story I tell myself is that I spent
a lot of time on my own in my
imagination in the woods connecting with
nature, finding animals, finding bugs,
collecting butterflies, tadpoles,
whatever it was. a lot of time on my own
drawing and just thinking and creating
and a lot of time with other kids
organizing and doing fun collective
projects. You know, the one in the
neighborhood that always said, "Hey
guys, let's build a fort." You know,
"Hey guys, let's build a go-kart. Hey
guys, let's make an airplane out of wood
and hang it from a tree and fly." And
which we did until the rope broke and
you know, it crashed. But you know so
there was an alpha social component
which is now critical but there was also
a quiet creative and introspective
component to it and I think it was if I
look at my life now it's my comfort in
both of those zones
>> that allows me to do what I do because a
lot of people are good writers are good
creators good artists but they don't
have the social organizational component
to motivate people to do things you know
and to leverage their creativity and so
that's a big part of it that sort of
alpha component if you will.
>> Yeah, absolutely. It's it's fascinating
because you hear about this passion in
your childhood, the flow to draw and
create and to be fascinated with nature
and it almost makes sense but then you
become a truck driver. And so walk me
through that arc of your life because I
feel so many people kind of up until 10
11 years old may even have these
passions and dreams and ideas and
creatives but then their life takes a different
different
>> I never went to university per se. I
went to the Fletcher and Junior College
which is part of the junior college
system. I was intensely curious. It was
the first time in my life where I was
surrounded by people who actually wanted
to to be there you know as opposed to
high school where people didn't want to
be there. just had to be there and you
know and and most of them sort of
rejected the learning process. I was
always hungry to learn not necessarily
what they were what they were teaching
but but you know lots of new things. I
got to college and I was surrounded by
people that actually wanted to be there
uh and wanted to learn and and there was
people were having arguments about
philosophy and and and English and
storytelling and and art and it was very
exciting but it was unsustainable for
me. I couldn't afford to do it
continuously or or endlessly. And um so
I had to work and I worked various jobs,
all blue collar jobs, right? And I
didn't mind working. I didn't mind just
sort of being, you know, and I I got
married at a very early age. I had a
little a little pink house with a white
picket fence and a dog, you know, and it
was kind of, you know, kind of
comforting. I was very very limited and
and simple but at the same time in my
after hours as a truck driver cuz it was
a you know 9 to 5 or an 8 to 5 job I was
painting I was drawing I was
storytelling for myself my wife didn't
understand that she was a waitress and
she she liked the me that was social and
with her but not the me that was off you
know creating all these these worlds and
so I was still trying to reconcile you
know that kind of social facing versus
the you know uh landscape of my own
imagination But I've always been
comfortable in my own head that way. Uh
dreams are a big part of it. Dreams are
a big part of my creativity. Source of
imagery, source of little um bits and
pieces of narrative, you know, because
it could be quite chaotic and jumbled,
but still within that there could be
some interesting ideas and uh so I I
think it was all just building up
building up a pressure to the point
where I had to do something about it.
Um, and that was in my my mid20s.
>> And so I was kind of a late starter. I
never went to film school. You know, my
film school was the drive-in movie
theaters of Orange County, you know, so
no formal training in film aesthetics or
or film history or or any of that stuff.
But it was just kind of building up that
all right, you know, it's that urge to
when you can't not draw, when you start
thinking filmically and in terms of
storytelling, it's like, well, you can't
not tell a story. you've got to tell
somebody the damn story,
>> you know. And I think anybody out there
that that hears this that feels that
way, you're stuck. You don't have a
choice. You're probably going to be a
filmmaker or a writer or whatever it is,
you know, just accept it. You know, you
might never be rich because, you know,
it's it's a difficult task and and uh
there's a lot of luck, I think, involved
in getting to be a a successful
storyteller, but um I just followed it.
I didn't I didn't question it, you know.
I just quit my job one day. No ranker.
Just guys, I got stuff to do. I'll see
you to my other the other drivers and
they're like, "What? Where are you going?"
going?"
>> You know, it I mean, it feels like a
bold step looking back because without
film school, without having made a film,
>> without any of that background to watch
Star Wars, I believe in 1977,
>> and for you to then go,
>> I need to go and become a filmmaker even
though you love drawing. And it it feels
like a bold step. And I think about all
of our listeners in our community who
>> are all thinking something similar. I
think a lot of people in my generation
and the generations after me studied
something at school that wasn't the
thing they wanted to be. They have a
dream inside of them. They have a story
>> and they feel a pull, but they're scared
to take that final step.
>> What gave you that conviction? Did was
it conviction or what was it? Was it
>> I think it was a conviction. Star Wars
helped. And I've talked to George Lucas
about this. I said I there untold people
that that you've inspired, George, but
I'm one of them because but in a way I
don't I don't think he was quite wanted
the answer that I that I gave, which was
I was already seeing all that stuff in
my head. And when I saw Star Wars, I
thought if that could be the highest
grossing film in history, then the stuff
that I'm seeing in my mind when I listen
to fast electronic music and imagine
space battles and all this crazy stuff,
it's like I should be doing that. You
know, there will be there will be a
market for it. There's a market for my
imagination. And that's maybe the
boldest step is the step you take internally,
internally,
>> you know, where you give yourself
permission to at least go try it, you
know, and and you and when you make that
commitment, you have to go in
wholeheartedly. You can't say, "Okay,
I'm going to be a filmmaker part-time,
but I'm going to sort of keep a foot in
like medical school." It's not going to
work. You got to go. You just got to
jump out of the plane and and and hope
you're wearing a parachute. Um, you
know, so I always tell people that
opportunities come along and they're
fleeting and that door will open for a
moment and then it'll slide closed and
and you got to be fortune favors the
prepared mind. If it's really something
you love, read as much as you can.
Prepare your mind ahead of time. Be
ready because when that door opens, but
the critical thing is to understand it's
not an example of an opportunity.
>> It is the opportunity. You either take
it or you don't. You don't use it as a
as a time to think about well when the
next one comes along I may or may not
you know what I mean that's not how it
works. You go you launch you know and
that opportunity for me was that a guy
that I was working with on learning to
sculpt and make molds who was a little
bit ahead of me in the sort of fan curve
of actually knowing how to do rubber
armatures for stop motion and I was
pretty fascinated by that. his sister
was dating a guy who was a carpenter on
a super lowbudget Roger Corman science
fiction film and and I just said,
"Introduce us." And so she talked to
him, he talked to them. We got an
appointment and we went in and showed
our little models and our little things
that we had and I had this film that I
had made with some friends and we both
got jobs on a Roger Corman film and we
thought we'd died and gone to heaven cuz
now we were getting a paycheck on a real
movie. No, it was a total piece of crap
movie. It was a little tiny movie, you
know. It was actually the biggest movie
Roger Corman had ever had ever made. It
was like a million dollars or something
like that which was huge for him. He
usually made movies for like $200,000.
>> But um and then all of a sudden I'm on a movie
movie
>> and then the rest just sort of made
sense after that. It's it's that
prepared mind thing, you know. I had
read everything I could possibly read. I
had I had schooled myself on how visual
effects were done. All for no money. All
not at university. Just u just you know
over the that sort of two or three years
that I was driving trucks and working
blue collar jobs. So, I guess in the
back of my mind, I must have thought,
I'm going to do this for real at some point
point
>> cuz I was clearly preparing myself. But
I had no entree. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I didn't know anybody that knew anybody
that knew anybody that worked on a film.
Even though I was in Orange County, it's
not that far from here, not that far
from the center of the film industry,
but it might as well have been Montana,
you know, at that time. Certainly.
>> Yeah. Did you do you record your dreams?
How do you note them down? How do you
capture them?
>> Yeah. Sometimes I'll wake up and I'll
just write it down, you know, or I'll
I'll I'll type it out on my laptop, whatever.
whatever.
>> How long have you recorded them for?
Like when did you start?
>> It's sporadic. I mean, you know, I mean,
it's a constant sort of streaming
channel that's running all the time, and
I they're not all necessarily worthy of,
but every once in a while, I'll get a
corker. It's like, oh man, I got to
write this one down. You won't believe this.
this.
>> Did you ever follow the curiosity of
where they come from or how they
originate or,
>> you know,
>> what have you where have you found where
do you think you get them from? I look,
I've I've read a lot on the theories of
consciousness and and dreams and what
purpose they serve and and uh there are
some researchers that think they have
deep psychological meaning and others
that think they're really just the brain
just kind of uh resetting itself and and
reshuffleling memory and and you know
kind of cleaning house and it doesn't
really have any meaning. I happen to
think that they have they have meaning
to you. Now, my wife Susie believes that
she has and and I I believe she's right,
has received promontory dreams um about
events in her life, and she's documented
this in a way that I find quite
compelling. I'm not 100% convinced.
Sorry, baby. Uh if you're listening, not
100% convinced, but she's given me
evidence that gives me pause.
>> And I'm a pretty hardcore empiricist.
I'm not a mystic. I don't I don't follow
all of the the the various winds of the
uh spirituality fads and things like
that. That's not how I roll. I'm very
scienceoriented. You got to show me. You
got to prove it. It's got to be peer
reviewed, you know, and that sort of
thing. It's got to be the subject of
double blind studies and it's got to be
falsifiable and all the, you know,
empirical stuff. But I've seen some
things I don't I can't explain. and
she's demonstrated some things to me
that can't be explained. >> Wow.
>> Wow.
>> By my know my understanding of science,
you know, I mean, I'm not a scientist,
but I did study physics. I studied
astronomy, and I I keep pretty current
in the sciences. So, there's clearly
stuff out there that's not well
explained or explained at all right now.
Doesn't mean it won't be someday using
empirical methodology. I don't know
quite how I got off on that, but we were
talking about dreams and dreams are not
well understood
>> um even by neuroscientists and so on.
What what is what is the brain doing,
you know? Um I personally think that
that we're kind of we're like um large
language models, you know. So all the
training data of our life, it just goes
into a kind of diffusion state, which is
how generative AI works. it goes into a
kind of a very noisy state and then out
of that coaleses new things and I think
the brain is just constantly creating in
the way that a generative AI works and
but who's creating it and who is it
being created for
>> so you're simultaneously the creator and
the watcher which is kind of amazing
>> I'm creating a simulated experience for
myself one part of my brain is and
another part of my brain let's call it
the ego locus or whatever ever the the
the person taking the ride, the kid the
the kid in the roller coaster is going
on the ride, which is kind of the film
making process.
>> That's fascinating
>> because I'm making a story. I'm making
up a story for my kind of simulation of
the audience mind, the group mind,
>> right? So part of my brain is making up
a story for another part of my brain.
that part of my brain is sitting in a
movie theater with hundreds of other
people and receiving it and judging it
like, "Okay, this is cool. I like that."
You know, and you know, you try to drill
down on the creative process. I'm a
writer. I'm sitting there. I'm looking
at a blank screen. Where do you start? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, um, and a lot of writers do it
in very different ways. Some start, you
know, page one, you know, Bob walks down
the street, you know, and then it just
goes from there in a linear fashion. For
me it coaleses probably almost in a
diffusion model kind of way. I start
writing notes and little images come to
me and I start putting the notes
together and for the Avatar sequels for example
example
um I wrote over a thousand pages of
notes just little fragments. Oh,
>> dreams and images.
>> And sometimes dreams play a part in that
and sometimes just the daydreaming
process that that creative engine
because I think that same creative
engine that runs at night out of control
nonlinear chaotic
montage style is actually more
functional during the day and can be
kind of directed to stay on a topic and
follow it through. um you know so maybe
I'll be thinking about a character and
then something will pop into my mind you
know and then I'll start writing about
that and it does I'm not trying to tell
a linear narrative at that point you
know I'll and it becomes a bit of a
dialogue so I I remember the time I was
sitting there in my writing office and I
said well what if there was a kid that
was you know a kid that was born on the
base and what if he was out in the the
forest with his Na'vi little kid friends
and his mask got messed up And you know,
they had to save him. He was running out
of running out of air and it became a
whole thing. And so I imagined this
whole thing about a race against time to
get him get him back to the base. And I
thought, okay, that's a pretty good
story. Now, what if what if that kid was
Cor's son?
>> And then I wrote literally wrote, "Nah,
nobody would believe that, you know."
And then I'm going on writing more notes
and about three or four pages later,
it's like, "Yeah, but wait a minute, it
would be really cool."
>> Yeah. you know, and then I just started
to riff on that and then it became, all
right, well, what if he was Cor's son
and the human dies in the first film,
now he's orphaned. His mother maybe dies
as well if she was part of the military
group that, you know, Jake was opposed to
to
>> and now he's an orphan and he's he's
being raised on Pandora and he's got
Na'vi friends. What if his Na'vi friends
were Jake's kids? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> What if what if what if what if what if?
Right. That's how the writing process
works. And then it just and then all of
a sudden ideas just you can't turn away
from them.
>> Do those creative ideas do you find a
set of systems or rituals or processes
that help you access that or is it more
organic? And
>> I know all every writer's got their own
process. Some, you know, I'm up at 5:00
a.m. I run I run two miles. I have a cup
of coffee. I sit down. I write 18 pages
and then I call it a day. For me, it's a
slow boil. I noodle around for most of
the day. get to the point toward the end
of the day, maybe 4 or 5:00 in the
afternoon, where I've been playing,
maybe I've been doing notes,
and then I'll just say, "Okay, time to
write some pages."
>> And then usually for about 3 hours, I'll
write pages. And I'll I'll get four or
five pages. It'll it'll come fast
>> at that point, you know, and that's when
you hit your stride in screenwriting.
>> Yeah. You you can see that the way
you're describing the scene with Caj's
son because there's almost like three
different story lines kind of
>> uh connecting in that moment around that
one thing that you just pointed out.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> But there's so many other things going
on at the same time.
>> Oh, I usually come up with way more
ideas than I could conceivably pack into
a movie and then I'll I'll winnow that
down. I'll winnow that down to a big old
fat screenplay that's unshootable. And
then I'll winnow that down. And then
I'll make a movie that's four hours
long. And then I'll winnow that down.
And then what you get is the end result
is the distillation of the distillation
of the best ideas. And then that's what
winds up in the lean little tight indie
film that I like to call Fire and Ash.
It's only only 3 hours and 7 minutes
long. One thing I've been reflecting on
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incredible about it when I watched it,
and I was so grateful that you allowed
me to go see it last week, and as I
said, when I was there, the uh gentleman
in the theater who was playing it for
me, he told me which seat you'd like me
to watch it from, which I thought was a
beautiful experience to have. So, I said
I said, "Yes, I want to sit in the exact
seat." And then
>> well no it's good that you moved back though.
though.
>> I did that. He told me I had that
option. He said
>> I did that to uh uh today actually uh
for the first time. I watched from the
seat behind. Now normally that's my
working seat when I'm reviewing because
you can see that there's a desk there
with an avid and so on. Um, but I
thought, well, let me see. Let me see
what it's like from there where I it
doesn't fill my peripheral field and
I've got a little bit more of that sense
of control that you have when it's a
proenium, you know, and I thought, "Oh,
this is actually pretty good."
>> It was spectacular, but more
importantly, 3 hours and 7 minutes flew
by. There was never a moment. I didn't I
was I didn't look at my phone once in 3
hours and 7 minutes. To me, that's the
test today of having your engagement,
attention, and awareness.
>> Right. So, we passed the most critical test
test
>> and Yeah. And the most magnificent thing
is that so much happens. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Like you're just on the edge of your
seat wondering what's going to happen
next and so much is happening, >> right?
>> right?
>> And to do that for 3 hours and 7 minutes
in your indie movie is uh is pretty it's
just an incredible feast for the eyes
and ears and like I felt like all my
senses are engaged all the time which is
such a beautiful experience to have
where just every time a new scene opens
you just totally captivated and it's
well thanks. It's it's so hard to do
that for that long, especially with I I
consider myself to have good presence
and attention, but even then I can turn
off something in 30 minutes when you you
know, and so to have your engagement not
just on a story level, but on a sensory
level and uh
>> I think yeah, I think you're on to
something there in describing as you're
saying it, I'm thinking, well, what are
my goals creatively? I want to tell a
great story with good characters that I
care about and I I care about how they
interact with each other and how their
relationships evolve and and how they
resolve their own conflicts, you know,
in a in a way that moves me, you know,
because if I can't move myself in a
story, how do I expect to to move move
an audience emotionally, right? But then
the layer on top of that is the sensory
layer which is color, composition, all
of those artistic things, you know,
because I also started as a an artist,
you know, figuratively, but I I could
draw, I could paint, I knew the rules of
of composition. I knew all, you know, I
I learned all the art history,
Renaissance, lighting, composition, all
that sort of thing. So, there's a
aesthetic level to it that I like.
There's the world building level where
every plant,
you know, either looks real and or has a purpose,
purpose,
>> you know, and we spend an awful lot of
time, fortunately, you know, we're we're
blessed with good budgets and good good
time to sort of let these ideas marinate
and and justate, right? And I've got
great designers. It doesn't all flow
from my consciousness. It comes out very
out of focus, if you will. And it's an
act of working with other people to
bring it more and more into finite
detail. Right? I've got the I call I
call it uh my role is to create the
grand provocation for the other creative
people. And I got that term from my wife
Susie who's an educator and she says the
the school provides the provocation. The
kids provide the investigation and the
curiosity and the passion to that's brilliant.
brilliant.
>> Right. And I think it's very it's very
good. It's the basis of her school. She
can do all that stuff better than I can.
I'm just a bystander to that part of it.
But I think about what I do. I come in
and I say, "Guys, we're going to do the
coolest woven tropical village,
overwater village." Now, what is that?
And you'd think that they could create
that in a week or two weeks. No, it took
a year. And because because part of the
provocation was, and it all has to be
intention. Nothing is built with rigid
cut lumber the way we would do it where
we create posts that are that are in um
um compression, right? Everything's in
tension. It's like a spiderweb. It's all
woven between these big structures like
the mangrove roots. And so they were
actually sculpting with panty hose
>> to get the right degree of elasticity.
To put it all in tension, they sculpted
the village with panty hose. This is
this is absolutely true. And then they
they wo these little structures that
later became the the homes and the
walkways and all that. And then they
developed it from there. And then
eventually we started building full
scale not full scale but say quarter
scale models of these woven structures.
And so when you walk through it, you
don't really get a chance. I always want
to give a little more than you can p
fully perceive cuz isn't that what daily
life is like? There's always more going
by than you can fully perceive, you
know? And so the brain becomes
selective. Okay. What what's narratively
important to me? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> In the moment.
>> No. And the talking about the emotional
nature of the characters and the story.
My wife always says my wife always says
I think James Cameron and his team have
been to other planets. That's what she
always says whenever she watches one of
your she's like he's been to other
planets in other lifetimes. Like that's
what she'll say. should be like how how
is it that you know you could and and
you feel that because you feel the depth
of the relationship the characters have
for each other. You feel that you you
fully believe this is real. It must
exist somewhere.
>> Yeah. Right.
>> Because how can you feel so deeply for
people who look different to you and
feel different to you and have different
experience? But we we feel
>> that's a goal, right? So the goal is all
right these people look different.
They're physiologically different. They
live in a different place. But doesn't
that give us permission to step outside
ourselves with our petty little
differences between race and culture and
religion and and politics and all that
stuff. Step well outside ourselves and
see kind of universals of human behavior
and the things we care about whether
that's a sense of uh duty and love that
a parent has for their for their child.
And that's why these films travel, I
think, you know, why they they resonate
in in China, in India, in Europe, in
Africa, wherever they go, because I'm
trying to deal with universal stuff, but
but I'm not trying to make stuff up,
right? So, with the sequels, um, uh, Way
of Water and Fire, Fire and Ash, and
beyond that, if we get to make some
more, I don't know if we will or not. We
have to make some money, you I mean,
it's a business also, but um if we do
get to make some more, the stories are
about a family
>> and so I couldn't pro not only couldn't
but probably wouldn't have even tried to
write them if I hadn't been in a large
family and gone through all that teen
angst and that issue, the father issues
and not being seen and all those things
and then having been a father of teens.
We've got uh Susie and I have five kids
and uh so I mean artists are just
working out their stuff,
>> you know, their lived experience and
project and and but taking that to
another world and putting it in another
context allows everybody to share in it
andor recognize themselves in it either
in a aspirational way like wow I wish I
was part of a family like that. my
family not so great or maybe I don't
have a lot of siblings or maybe I wonder
what that would be like or maybe it's
like I'm in exactly that kind of family
>> and I wish I wasn't sometimes you know
>> uh I I I've been repeating to my wife
I'm saying this in reaction in response
to what you just said now I've been
saying to my wife all week we need to
have we don't have kids yet but we plan
on having them one day and I said when
we have kids we need to have u mantras
and affirmations as a family so I keep
saying to her sull's never quit like I'm like
like
>> there you keep saying that to us. I'm
like, I love that statement. It stuck
with me. And I was like to see
>> the little child's like courage in that moment
moment
>> where they're in so much danger, in so
much pain, but they remember that their
dad told them that Sully's never quit,
>> right? And then when she says it,
>> when she says it later, she basically
saves the world
>> with one thing where she says, you know,
come on, we can do this. Sully's never
quit. And you're like, go to
>> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, that's that feeling
of I'm like to see that courage in a
young person and how these simple
universal me messages are things they
hold on to in a child's mind. And then
even the storyline with Pyon like for me that
that
>> oh my I mean from the second to the
third because when I watched um the
second movie for me that fully just made
me fall in sea life in a way that I
hadn't before >> right
>> right
>> and and and got a I was like wow this is
genius in how you're sharing a message
around you know uh water wildlife that
we just don't treat well anymore. we
won't protect what we don't love and
care about. Right? And so this I'm I'm
working at a very small part of a much
bigger project that's being run by a
marine biologist named David Gruber. And
he's he's working with people who are
are in AI and machine learning kind of
more side of AI and but they're using
some large language model technology as
well to decode
um whale whale vocalizations. So,
they've got thousands of hours of sperm
whale vocalizations, and they've got
some context footage of what socially
they're doing, and they're decoding
their their uh clicks, which are called
kodas, and their click sequences. And
they're finding that they have verbs,
they have syntax, they have complex
language, at least as complex as human
language, which is kind of amazing. Wow.
But it all sounds like if you could
that's like a whole paragraph in in
sperm whale,
>> you know, and it's taken years and years
and AI tools. So, yeah, nature is far
more complex than we understand.
Consciousness is clearly shared by some
of the higher uh mammals, even some
birds, you know, um that that have true
consciousness, you know, that they
recognize themselves in a mirror. And
that's one of the key signs that there
is a a higher form of consciousness.
Like a dog doesn't recognize itself as
an individual in a mirror. And we think
of dogs as conscious and of course they
are uh and they're they're emotive and
they're empathetic and they're very much
like us emotionally, but they don't have
a consciousness high enough to recognize
their individual selves in a mirror. But
an elephant can, a chimpanzeee can, and
a dolphin can. >> Wow.
>> Wow.
>> And uh I don't know if they've done
that. I think they've proven that a
beluga whale can as well, but I don't
think they've done it with the great
whales. It's just a little difficult to
do because you can't put them in a tank
and study them like some of the smaller
tooth whales like dolphins and and
belugas. But anyway, there's even a
parrot species in New Zealand that is
intelligent enough to recognize itself
as an individual. Um, most birds can't.
So, you know, you've got these glimmers
of emergent uh consciousness besides us,
you know, and now we're going to have
machine consciousness emerging in the
next decade or whatever it's going to
be. And that's going to be a whole new
set of challenges for us as well. We
don't even understand consciousness yet
in ourselves. And now we're going to
have to to start relating to this alien
consciousness that we that we create.
>> Yeah, absolutely. And and it's almost
like I was I was speaking at a
conference about AI and consciousness
recently and someone asked me if I ever
believed AI would ever have a soul and
my response was I'm not qualified to
answer whether AI will ever have a soul but
but
>> I really hope the people building AI
have a soul because it's so much of
>> bingo or conscience more that's what I
meant. Yeah. I think you can have a if
you if you believe in some kind of
animus or spirit or soul or whatever it
is that's persistent beyond the
biological framework. I personally don't
just saying that up front. But if you
but I also I I won't u bet completely
against something that just hasn't
simply been proven yet. Um but but I but
I also only I believe in believing in
things that have been empirically
demonstrated and being kind of agnostic
or fluid about everything else. Right.
But but if if you do believe in that,
then um a machine couldn't possibly have
that, now could it? Because we didn't
create that in the first place. And if
we think we can create a machine that
that can have it, then we can't. So now
you get the sort of the soulless uh the
soulless Frankenstein kind of mythology
around that. On the other hand, if you
believe that consciousness is this kind
of field of of of operations that is
almost infinitely complex but but um can
be understood as a real a real world
thing based in matter. Um then
theoretically a machine intelligence
could be as soulful as empathetic as
emotional as us although it might be
very very very different. And then you
get into the quantum physics of
consciousness where you've got observer
effect and things like that where there
seems to be some link at a quantum level
with consciousness and then all bets are off,
off,
you know. And I've had I've had some
strange experiences with one one
practitioner in particular that believed
in quantum consciousness and could do
things I can't explain
>> to me to my mind. What do you mean? And
I'm well could actually actually create
a state of consciousness in my mind by
sitting across from me just like you are
right now.
>> And I am not I'm not hypnotizable.
Nobody's ever been able to hypnotize me.
I'm pretty resistant to any kind of suggestability,
suggestability,
but this particular individual was able
to do something.
>> What were you What were you
experimenting with that you even sat
across someone like that? My wife Susie
had met this guy and worked with him and
workshopped with him a lot many many
years earlier and said, "You really need
to meet this guy." His name was Carl
Wolf. And I was very skeptical. Like I
said, I'm I'm an empiricist. You got to,
you know, and I said, "All right, I'm
skeptical, but I'll but I'll I'll do it
for you, baby."
And something happened, and I can't
explain it. >> Wow.
>> Wow.
>> Something happened. Now, what was it? I
don't know. Carl had hypothesis. I don't
know if his own hypothesis were
accurate. I'd love to ask him, but
unfortunately, he he died tragically in
a in a car accident. And cuz I wanted to
like, can I just spend millions of
dollars studying your mind, please?
>> That's fascinating. I mean, what's
beautiful about all these worlds you
create and when I was researching your
story and learning about just how many
failures and moments you've had to quit
and give up and again I think about our
listeners and I think about them
>> S's never quit.
>> Sy's never quit. There you go. And and
even what you just mentioned right now
about your own experience with your
father and then becoming a father and
what that looks like
>> was are the worlds you create worlds
that you didn't have or did have for
you? I think both right things. I mean,
the thing that I've tried to do in the
Avatar films is create a dynamic range
of experience from ecstatic to
terrifying to heart-wrenching,
from despair to to joy, all of those all
of those things. I think movies are
pretty good at creating a state, maybe a
state of dread or something like that,
but I don't think they're good at taking
you on that roller coaster ride that
more is the way our our real existence
is. So, I wanted to have amazing moments
of beauty. I think beauty gets forgotten
in movies these days. You know,
everything is about threat and conflict
and all that. Um, but I also wanted to
take you on an emotional journey where
you get to places that are that are that
are either terrifying or or
heart-wrenching through loss or or
whatever. Um, and that's all dependent
on performance, you know, that's all
dependent on the actors. The actors are
are our our path through this our
conduit. We we see it all through
through their eyes, you know. So, for
me, the the real act of creation,
everybody is quite enamored of the world
building because that's what they see.
they see the end result. But for me,
it's about getting those characters down
on the page, bringing it in with my
actors, and and the beauty of the of the
two sequels is that I was writing for
for actors I knew,
>> and I could hear the way they'd say it.
And I didn't feel the dialogue is right
until I knew that Slang, Steven Lang,
who plays Cage, would say it that way,
you know, or Sam would say it that way,
or or Zoe would say it that way. And
then of course I threw a new element in
which is Una Chaplain who you know who
plays Vang who's you know pretty pretty
terrifying character at times and uh I
wasn't making her up out of whole cloth
obviously I didn't know who the actor
was that was going to going to play her
>> but that's the part where I think that
engagement that you were talking about
it's not just sensory and visual it's
also heartfelt >> right
>> right
and uh we bring our own human experience
to it every time we walk into a movie
theater. And I also think a critical
part of the engagement is the theatrical
experience. So a lot was made, you know,
dur when during the rise of of like DVD
and Blu-ray and all that.
A lot was made about the fact that, oh
well, you don't have a screen that big,
your sound isn't that good, the theater
is a better experience. But we're at the
point now where you're probably your
home TV set and your home soundbar and
everything is as good as what what
you're going to see in a movie theater.
Um, so that goes away. So what's left?
What's left is in our day-to-day life,
we're very fragmented and scattered and
and distracted and and multitasking and
we're we're we're scrolling and and you
know and we're typing and we're
connected and um uh you know multi-
channeling all simultaneously.
Very rarely do we just sit in a
meditative state and just focus. You
know, people who practice mindfulness
and yoga and things like that, they know
how to do that. Um, and they do it to
clear their mind. But what how often do
we do it where we focus on a received
experience? You know, some people will
sit and read a novel for hours and
hours. I think they're a dying breed,
unfortunately. Um, but the movie theater
is one of the last bastions of of a
focused entertainment where we make a
deal with ourselves before we go there,
before we leave our homes. We make a
deal with ourselves that for 2 or 3
hours we're going to be undistracted
and then all of a sudden it's like the
world goes away and you're on that
journey and nothing else matters for
that brief period of time. And I think
that's the the real magic of the
theatrical experience. And it boils down
to one simple thing.
>> You don't have a remote.
>> It's that simple. You can't pause it.
>> You can't go order a pizza. You can't
pause it, go to the bathroom. You can't
be in a room with other family members
who are talking and you pause it so you
>> Absolutely.
>> I'm kidding. The kids don't make lame
comments, but they do comment during the
movie and I'll pause it and I'm like,
"Yes, you were saying.
>> That's so funny. Do they Do the kids
ever look at the movies and go, "Dad,
you just made a character out of me."
Like, is there ever that?
>> I think they see that there was a moment
in time 10 years ago where who I
believed they were influenced the
creation of a character. But they but I
think for them it's all a big laugh
because they say two things. One is that
was 10 years ago and two even then you
didn't really know who I was.
>> That's brilliant. I want to come back to
depth of character but I wanted to talk
about failure because you've told this
story before but the part I wanted to
ask about was before you made Terminator
you actually lost a job. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And we won't we won't mention the film
because I heard you didn't mention it.
But but like for anyone who's finally
found their way, you went from truck
driver, starting to make films, made
this small movie,
>> you get fired off a job. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> That almost feels like, all right, well,
this is the end of the road. You You
said you felt that way.
>> It felt that way. And it felt like there
was going into my first directing gig
that I did get fired off of after I
think six or seven days of shooting and
not for incompetence, it turns out. It
turns out that I was being set up the
whole time. And when I found that out
later, it sort of put it in perspective.
But I believed at the time, I
internalized that I was not doing it
well, you know, and I thought, "Oh crap,
now I'm worse off than if I hadn't taken
the job in the first place. Now I'm at
-10. I could have just been at zero. Now
I have to dig out of a hole to get to zero,
zero,
>> you know. Um, and so then I knew I had
to do something extraordinary or
something different. I couldn't wait for
a directing gig to come to me. I had to
create it for myself. And that's when I
wrote The Terminator. I thought, I have
to write something original, something
that I could plausibly make that
wouldn't have an enormous budget. And it
was scaled to, you know, conventional
locations, present day city streets,
that sort of thing, so that we could do
it relatively cheaply. But I but I also
thought, all right, but I've got to
inject into it. It can't just be, you
know, uh, a simple drama. I've got to
inject into it something that I bring my
as expertise. So my expertise was in
design and in visual effects. I thought
all right so I've got to create a
careful balance here. The visual effects
have to be very limited but they have to
be powerful so that there so that it's
not a ridiculous budget like a Star Wars
movie that I knew we couldn't afford or
nobody would hire me for. So then I came
up with the idea of a futuristic
technology that gets injected into the
present day time travel, right? So there
was a a logic to the the story elements
that I was playing with that was based
entirely on being practical and trying
to get a gig. So would I have come up
with that story if I didn't have those
constraints? I don't know. Maybe not,
you know, but it all worked out. Um, so
I thought, all right, I want this
extraordinary thing that requires, you
know, animation and and design, this
Terminator, but I'll have it come from
the future, which I don't have to see,
and I'll just see present day. You know,
we could just use available light,
street lighting, and and that that sort
of thing, which is kind of how we did it.
it.
>> That that's such a fascinating point you
just made though, that constraints
actually led
>> to brilliant creativity.
>> It wasn't the other way around. And
often we get lost in the trap of when I
have resources, right?
>> I'll make a masterpiece and you made
something that's timeless.
>> Yeah, that's really good. I mean, you
know, the resources will come eventually
and that brings its own curse because
now you can do anything.
>> And when you have infinite choice, you
could get paralyzed, right? And and an
Avatar movie is an exercise in limiting
choice because when you work with
performance capture, I get a great
performance, but then I can put the
camera anywhere I want. I could cut it
anywhere I want. I'm not constrained by
just the footage that we were able to
grab that day before the sun set. It
becomes a kind of a problem of infinite
choice. I think it makes makes you a
better filmmaker cuz now why is the
camera going right here? Not because
that's the farthest back I can move
before my ass hits the wall and that's
the widest shot I can do. Why is it here
and not back there or not over there,
you know? And so you it it forces you to
become quite rigorous about your
aesthetic. You know, that's a separate
problem from getting great performance,
by the way. And the weird thing about an
Avatar movie, it's a little weird, is we
separate performance from
cinematography. We do all the
cinematography later.
>> I don't even think about it. I don't
think about the camera angles when I'm
working with the actors. I know I'll be
able to shoot it. I don't know exactly
how I'll shoot it, but I'm just I just
care about the heart and soul and the
authenticity of the moment
>> with the actors. Now I'm done with them.
Now they're all working on another
movie. Now it's like, okay, am I on a
wide shot, close shot? Am I on a long
lens, short lens? Is the camera moving?
Is it still? Is it raining? Is it not?
You know, is it night? Is it day? You
can make all those decisions later with
that nucleus, that sort of beating heart
of the performance, but you can
interpret it many many different ways.
So that that idea of, you know, infinite
choice, it can be paralyzing or it can
make you more rigorous and and it forces
you to define to yourself and to the
others you're working with, other
editors, other designers, um, why you're
doing it that way. And sometimes I just
I just talk. It's like, "Okay, good."
You know, it's like I'll talk while I'm
working. It's like, "Okay, I can be
here. I can be there. I can put the
camera here. What do you guys think?"
You know, and they're like, "Well, I
like the water shot." It's like, "Okay,
let's do the water shot." It gets more
inclusive in a way. Not that I'm
doubting myself, but it's like, why not?
Why wouldn't you be inclusive?
>> Yeah, absolutely. And and you were so
committed to that that you sold it for
$1 and rejected all of these amazing
studio budgets because they wouldn't let
you direct it. This is going back to the
Terminator and you're talking about the
fact that I I made a right deal with
Gail Anne Herurd who was another
upandcomer in the same super low tier as
I was. And uh you know she had the eye
of the tiger and I recognized in her the
same thing she recognized in me, which
is that we could we could get this done.
We could make something happen together.
And so I sold her the rights for a
dollar in exchange for a promise. And
that promise was worth a lot more than a
dollar to me, which was you will never
proceed with this movie. I mean, I could
have written a 20page contract to do it.
Uh, but it was like a blood oath almost
literally. I don't think we actually cut
our hands, but it was pretty much that.
And uh, and this is before we were
romantically involved. This was just us,
you know, a nent producer and a nent
director. I said, 'You will never make
this movie without me as a director, and
I will never make this movie without you
as the producer. And man, they tried to
split that team. They tried to get her
in the rights and and not and get
another director, you know, and there
were times when when Gail was beating
them up so much on the budget, they took
me aside and said, "Look, we'll make the
movie with you, but we got to get rid of
her." And I'm like, "Nope, that ain't
going to happen." And she said, "Nope,
that ain't going to happen." So, in a
way, everything else flowed from that
that first film. And so that was, you
know, that was a dollar well spent.
>> Yeah, that's that's I love that story.
It just every time I hear you tell it
from when I was doing research and
listening to you tell it and even
hearing it now, I'm just like there's
such a today there's such a fixation on
getting what you deserve. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And demanding what you deserve. And I
think sometimes it sets you up for
failure because you could be waiting a
long time for someone to give you what
you deserve. your career is this
constant, well, I'll build what I
deserve or I'll I'll take it myself.
>> The simple answer is you don't deserve
anything. It's just a question of what
you can negotiate for yourself and what
you can prove prove to the world, you
know, that you're you're capable of,
right? And then and then all then the
money will flow from that and the you
know, all of those things will flow from
that. I never was in it for the money in
a sense. I'm still not, you know, uh
it's a consequence of doing the job well
and reaching people and communicating,
you know. Um I am a commercial
filmmaker. I don't try to do something
that's intentionally obscure or
intentionally so kind of uh intellectual
that you know that it doesn't connect
for the majority of the audience. I'm a
bell curve guy. You know, it's like I
want to I want to hit that sweet spot in
the middle of the bell curve where the
where I'm communicating with the
greatest number of people. And there
will be some people for whom it is it is
beneath them to even consider enjoying
an an Avatar movie. And there are some
people that just don't get it on the on
the other end. You know what I mean? But
I'm I'm I'm looking at that bell curve.
And I think there are some filmmakers
that that want to indicate that they're
smarter than the audience and challenge
them to try to keep up and piouette
their intelligence. Um, not to say
they're not intelligent, but
>> come on guys, that's entertainment. You
know, it can have deeper meaning. I
mean, I I like to have thematic
layering, you know, and I like to have
things that mean something to me, and if
people pick up on it, great. But I won't
make the story hinge on that,
>> you know. Um, so I don't know. I may
maybe it's that drive-in movie, you
know, college of cinematic knowledge
that the drive-in movie theaters of
Orange County paying off, you know.
>> I I feel like everyone looks at you and
even these examples you're talking
about, there's such a people would say,
you know, James Cameron's a risk taker.
He takes big risks and but do you see
yourself that way? How do how do you I
feel like it's something more than that.
Well, I think I think it's not a
question of taking risk for risk's sake,
but I do think the biggest risk as an
artist is to not take risks because then
you're just doing what you've done and
what you know and andor what other
people have done, which is even worse,
you know, just in being in a in a kind
of a comfort zone of mediocrity. Um, so
yeah, I think I think you do take risks,
but having taken that risk, you then do
everything within your power to make
sure that you are communicating that it
is working. Um, that you're not
jeopardizing large amounts of other
people's money by doing something
foolish. You know, Titanic was a risk.
you know, it was a uh very very
expensive film in which basically
everybody dies, you know, and it was a
period piece and it was three hours
long. The only successful film
previously that had been 3 hours long
that was a commercial film was uh a best
picture winner which was Dances with Wolves.
Wolves.
>> I always pronounce it Dances with Wolves
because it was a name, you know. So
yeah, I always imagine it hyphenated,
not Dances with Wolves, which is what
most people say. Um but um and I don't
know if that's accurate. I I you know I
never asked anybody but probably is. Uh
but um and so we were in uncharted
territory. I mean we went in knowing it
was going to be a long film and that
it's a tragic film and that it's a
tragic love story. Um pretty risky in a
sense. You know it certainly didn't
follow any of the commercial paradigms
of the time. And we reached a point
after we went over budget. Even though
the film was looking pretty good in the
dailies and in the rough cuts, we
reached a point where the studio was
utterly convinced it was only a question
of whether they were going to lose $50
million or $150 million. And they were
so dead set on an outcome. They almost
manifested the outcome they dreaded
because of their lack of faith in the
film. I even almost in a way lost faith
in the film being commercial, but I
never lost faith in it being
artistically correct.
>> And that's when I it's the story's been
told, but it's actually true. I
literally had a razor blade taped to my
Avid screen with a little sign that
said, "Use in case film sucks." Cuz I
knew that the only way out of this was
through. And the only way through was to
make the best possible movie you could
make. Even if I didn't make a dime off
it, even if it failed commercially, it
had to be good and it had to deliver on
on those artistic principles that we
went in with. I knew I had a great cast.
I had great performances, you know, and
it turned out uh from from the moment
James her played the first he had he
wrote three themes and just reiterated
them throughout the score. He wrote
three themes and he played them for me
on his piano in March of 1997. And
that's when I knew I had a movie because
I cried on all three themes.
>> First one, it was just like, "Holy
dude. It's amazing." You know, and I
said, "We've got a score." He said, "I
haven't written the score yet." I said,
"We've got a score." And I wasn't wrong.
Uh I knew from that moment that it was
going to be great. And yeah, sure. He he
he wrote it. He orchestrated it. He went
out, he recorded it with a 100 piece
orchestra. But I knew from that simple
piano melody that we were good. And uh
and I think at that point I started to
have some faith that the movie itself
would deliver on what I intended it to
deliver. You know, there's a funny point
in movies. It's okay if I just kind of
>> I love it. Please. That's my favorite
bit of podcast.
>> There's a certain point in making a
movie where it's not your movie anymore.
I think it's my movie when I write it. I
think the second I cast it, it's not my
movie anymore. And the second I'm
working with designers and we're
building sets and all that, now it's got
its own momentum. It's got its own life.
And there's a point in post-prouction
where it's being received. And I don't
mean that necessarily in a mystical way,
although it might be. I don't know. Um
but um it's being received from the
group's creative energy, what the actors
did, what the designers did, what the
camera operator did, um you know, what
the DP did. And it's just up to me to to
to see it and see it emerging and then
help assist, you know, clear clear the
debris out of the way, get it to to kind
of emerge. And and I felt that more so,
especially on these last two Avatar
films, than I've ever felt before. You
got a long film, it's half an hour
longer than it could be. You've got to
take stuff out. So, you're pairing away
and and themes are emerging and getting
stronger. And it even got quite snaky on
this last one because I felt the themes
emerging so strongly that I actually
wrote new scenes and asked the actress
to come back and reshaped the whole
thing. For example, there was a scene in
the script which we captured where Jake
teaches all the Na'vi how to fire
machine guns. I was wrong. I didn't want
that's not what the movie was supposed
to be saying. And so the power, the dark
grim power that comes from when Coror
arms the Ash people
>> and you see them lift those weapons up
and you say, "Oh my god, this whole
thing's going wrong."
>> I can't have Jake be doing the same
thing. But I somehow I didn't see that
in the writing, but I saw it as it was
unveiling itself to me. And I called
everybody back in. I said, "Guys, you
got to come back." Um, and the beauty of
performance capture is you can recreate
the set almost instantly in like an hour.
hour.
>> So, we just were able to go back into
it. And I did something else instead,
which is I had Jake go get the the touk,
which was also not in the script. >> Ah,
>> Ah,
>> but when you see it, you think, how
could that not
that's one of the most epic moments of
the whole
>> Exactly. Well, I had put that in movie
four, but I realized I was playing too
long a game, you know, and you know, the
scene with with him and Spider, which I
won't go into the details of, but after that,
that,
>> you know, when Nikki says, "Then we will
find another way." That's the only way
he's got left is to do the thing
>> that he dreads the most.
>> Yes. Yes.
>> That he absolutely knows will take
something out of his soul.
>> Uh but he has to do it. It's the only
other way. And so, you know, sacrifice
is a theme that I deal with a lot. Duty,
cuz you can't have love without the fear
of death, the fear of loss, uh without the need for sacrifice, without a sense
the need for sacrifice, without a sense of duty. What will you do to to prove
of duty. What will you do to to prove yourself in a loving relationship, you
yourself in a loving relationship, you know, played with that on Titanic,
know, played with that on Titanic, played with that on Aliens, you know,
played with that on Aliens, you know, played with that on Terminator 2, right?
played with that on Terminator 2, right? And so these the these last two Avatar
And so these the these last two Avatar films are the the same thing. What would
films are the the same thing. What would Jake and Niri do for their children? Uh
Jake and Niri do for their children? Uh what would they do for their people? And
what would they do for their people? And what happens when what is right for the
what happens when what is right for the children is not right for the people? If
children is not right for the people? If you're if the right thing is to go to
you're if the right thing is to go to war and I know that you you're you're
war and I know that you you're you're all about peace and and purpose and all
all about peace and and purpose and all of that. And I agree with all of those
of that. And I agree with all of those things cuz I think empathy is our great
things cuz I think empathy is our great human superpower which will get us
human superpower which will get us through this somehow. Um but I do
through this somehow. Um but I do believe there are times when you do have
believe there are times when you do have to fight. I'm not a total pacifist. And
to fight. I'm not a total pacifist. And I think
I think >> uh in my lifetime there has not been a
>> uh in my lifetime there has not been a righteous war that the US has been
righteous war that the US has been involved in. But World War II when you
involved in. But World War II when you have a predator that's destroying
have a predator that's destroying everything that that is of value to
everything that that is of value to people. Yeah. You have to fight. You
people. Yeah. You have to fight. You have to fight for your survival. So, and
have to fight for your survival. So, and we could have a whole conversation just
we could have a whole conversation just about this.
about this. >> I know. I was just about to say that the
>> I know. I was just about to say that the uh Well, I was about to say that
uh Well, I was about to say that >> I'm flipping the script here, by the
>> I'm flipping the script here, by the way, in case you didn't notice.
way, in case you didn't notice. >> No, I was about to say that the
>> No, I was about to say that the spiritual text that I practice and teach
spiritual text that I practice and teach and follow is based on a battlefield.
and follow is based on a battlefield. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And it's God or the divine telling the
>> And it's God or the divine telling the greatest archer of his time to pick up
greatest archer of his time to pick up his bow and fight. Yeah.
his bow and fight. Yeah. >> For righteousness and duty.
>> For righteousness and duty. >> For righteousness and duty. It's it
>> For righteousness and duty. It's it makes a lot of it it definitely
makes a lot of it it definitely resonates what you're saying that there
resonates what you're saying that there is a need.
is a need. >> Yeah. So I'm an action filmmaker. So I'm
>> Yeah. So I'm an action filmmaker. So I'm you know action I mean if you think
you know action I mean if you think about it action is just a candycoded
about it action is just a candycoded term for violence right when it's
term for violence right when it's righteous violence practiced by the good
righteous violence practiced by the good guy in in defense of good people and so
guy in in defense of good people and so on. You know we spend a lot of time
on. You know we spend a lot of time justifying it to ourselves. And I think
justifying it to ourselves. And I think a lot of the classic cinematic
a lot of the classic cinematic justifications aren't really sufficient.
justifications aren't really sufficient. Um, which is why I went down the road of
Um, which is why I went down the road of having the Tulkun
having the Tulkun >> be utter pacifists where they have
>> be utter pacifists where they have rejected any kind of violent um
rejected any kind of violent um confrontation up to and almost including
confrontation up to and almost including their own final destruction.
their own final destruction. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> But they at the very brink they decide
>> But they at the very brink they decide that there are there is something that
that there are there is something that they that they have to rise up for. And
they that they have to rise up for. And when they see the horror of what's
when they see the horror of what's what's happened to Tanuk and Pyakon's
what's happened to Tanuk and Pyakon's clan and all that, which I think is
clan and all that, which I think is quite a heart-wrenching scene, even
quite a heart-wrenching scene, even though
though >> Oh, that's like Yeah. When you make me
>> Oh, that's like Yeah. When you make me feel for Pyon, I'm like, that's like,
feel for Pyon, I'm like, that's like, >> you know, because now you're not even
>> you know, because now you're not even >> feeling for something that looks
>> feeling for something that looks remotely human,
remotely human, >> right? Exactly. But but we're able to
>> right? Exactly. But but we're able to see consciousness in in others, in the
see consciousness in in others, in the eyes, you know, in dogs and
eyes, you know, in dogs and >> in in the great apes, you know. I think
>> in in the great apes, you know. I think it's a little harder in birds, even
it's a little harder in birds, even though they're pretty damn smart. M
though they're pretty damn smart. M >> um whales though have a soulfulness and
>> um whales though have a soulfulness and maybe maybe to some extent we project it
maybe maybe to some extent we project it on to them but I don't think so there's
on to them but I don't think so there's something very calm
something very calm >> about whales you know and they they've
>> about whales you know and they they've they've been greatly injured on our
they've been greatly injured on our planet so I think you know what I was
planet so I think you know what I was trying to express there is look what
trying to express there is look what we've done to them
we've done to them >> and they don't seem to hate us
>> and they don't seem to hate us >> as much as we would if that was done to
>> as much as we would if that was done to us. Um although there are pods of orcas
us. Um although there are pods of orcas near Gibralar and off the Azorus that
near Gibralar and off the Azorus that are attacking sailboats now and ripping
are attacking sailboats now and ripping the rudders off and leaving them a
the rudders off and leaving them a drift.
drift. >> Um
>> Um >> Wow.
>> Wow. >> So it's like are they learning are they
>> So it's like are they learning are they learning that we're actually not so
learning that we're actually not so great for them. Yeah. Workers have a
great for them. Yeah. Workers have a matriarchal society and the mothers
matriarchal society and the mothers teach the sons
teach the sons >> behaviors and so the question is is this
>> behaviors and so the question is is this being handed down? because it's been
being handed down? because it's been happening a lot in the last few years
happening a lot in the last few years and it's the same group, the territorial
and it's the same group, the territorial territorial group. So maybe
territorial group. So maybe >> all of this you're talking about you
>> all of this you're talking about you spent around 10 years just studying the
spent around 10 years just studying the ocean, right? Like if
ocean, right? Like if >> while you weren't making films at that
>> while you weren't making films at that time, you literally went deep into
time, you literally went deep into >> literally
>> literally >> everything that you're sharing right
>> everything that you're sharing right now. It's
now. It's >> I went as deep as you can go.
>> I went as deep as you can go. >> Mind blown. Like you did you just put
>> Mind blown. Like you did you just put everything else away like
everything else away like >> Not really. I kind of kept my hand in.
>> Not really. I kind of kept my hand in. So, so after Titanic was a big hit and I
So, so after Titanic was a big hit and I was questioning, you know, is this even
was questioning, you know, is this even important? Is Hollywood even important?
important? Is Hollywood even important? It seems like such a glitzy game and it
It seems like such a glitzy game and it and and it seems kind of quite fatuous
and and it seems kind of quite fatuous and and at about that time I I wound up
and and at about that time I I wound up on the NASA advisory council, believe it
on the NASA advisory council, believe it or not. And I looked around a room full
or not. And I looked around a room full of people who were very uh intelligent,
of people who were very uh intelligent, most of them, all of them really, better
most of them, all of them really, better educated than me, with a strong sense of
educated than me, with a strong sense of purpose, right? that they were doing
purpose, right? that they were doing something extraordinary. They were
something extraordinary. They were exploring space and none of them cared
exploring space and none of them cared about Hollywood. They didn't even know
about Hollywood. They didn't even know what was happening. They Oh, the Oscars.
what was happening. They Oh, the Oscars. What's that? Oh, yeah. You know, it's
What's that? Oh, yeah. You know, it's what they And I could name a movie star
what they And I could name a movie star they wouldn't even recognize. I mean,
they wouldn't even recognize. I mean, sure, there's always little, you know,
sure, there's always little, you know, movie fans here and there, but it just
movie fans here and there, but it just mattered to them. It didn't matter to
mattered to them. It didn't matter to them at all. They were doing something
them at all. They were doing something far more important. And that was a real
far more important. And that was a real bucket of cold water. It's like, oh, all
bucket of cold water. It's like, oh, all these things we live in this little
these things we live in this little self-reerential bubble that we think is
self-reerential bubble that we think is so important and it just isn't. And uh
so important and it just isn't. And uh so I thought, you know, maybe I'll just
so I thought, you know, maybe I'll just explore around a little bit um just in
explore around a little bit um just in life, you know, and and because I had
life, you know, and and because I had gotten to do an expedition to the rec
gotten to do an expedition to the rec site where I was really now becoming
site where I was really now becoming conversant with real deep ocean
conversant with real deep ocean technology, I thought, why don't I just
technology, I thought, why don't I just go down that road? I know everybody, you
go down that road? I know everybody, you know, I know all the scientists and
know, I know all the scientists and researchers and submersible people and
researchers and submersible people and everything. So, I just started creating
everything. So, I just started creating expeditions and building new technical
expeditions and building new technical systems, cameras, and lighting systems
systems, cameras, and lighting systems and exploratory vehicles. And and the
and exploratory vehicles. And and the other thing I liked about it is the
other thing I liked about it is the ocean is unforgiving. Either your math
ocean is unforgiving. Either your math is right or your equipment fails. It'll
is right or your equipment fails. It'll implode or or the electronics will flood
implode or or the electronics will flood and it won't work and you'll come back
and it won't work and you'll come back with nothing. And that's not a critic's
with nothing. And that's not a critic's opinion. You know, that's one I I came
opinion. You know, that's one I I came up with this idea, this principle that,
up with this idea, this principle that, you know, the second law of
you know, the second law of thermodynamics is not an opinion. It's a
thermodynamics is not an opinion. It's a law. It's not some critic's opinion.
law. It's not some critic's opinion. It's not some journalist's opinion. It's
It's not some journalist's opinion. It's not even a fickle audience member's
not even a fickle audience member's opinion or some some, you know, uh some
opinion or some some, you know, uh some blogger's trolling opinion, you know. Um
blogger's trolling opinion, you know. Um it either works or it doesn't. And I I
it either works or it doesn't. And I I really enjoyed immersing myself in a
really enjoyed immersing myself in a world of hard rules. You succeed or you
world of hard rules. You succeed or you fail, not based on on your art or your
fail, not based on on your art or your creativity or somebody else's subjective
creativity or somebody else's subjective opinion of your art because the two
opinion of your art because the two don't exist without each other. That's
don't exist without each other. That's the crazy thing. So as an artist, you
the crazy thing. So as an artist, you bury your soul and you can be utterly
bury your soul and you can be utterly rejected, you know, but ultimately the
rejected, you know, but ultimately the point of art is to communicate with
point of art is to communicate with other humans. They may hate it, you
other humans. They may hate it, you know, so you you you put yourself at
know, so you you you put yourself at risk. I thought, you know what? I'm just
risk. I thought, you know what? I'm just going to go into an empirical world, a
going to go into an empirical world, a cartisian world where it either works or
cartisian world where it either works or it doesn't based on good engineering.
it doesn't based on good engineering. And that was good. And I learned some
And that was good. And I learned some really important human lessons in that
really important human lessons in that world as well. Cuz when you're offshore
world as well. Cuz when you're offshore with a small team, it's all about
with a small team, it's all about respect and cohesion and and that bond.
respect and cohesion and and that bond. And when you come back to shore, you
And when you come back to shore, you can't even explain to people how hard it
can't even explain to people how hard it was or why it worked or what it took,
was or why it worked or what it took, you know, but that bond exists between
you know, but that bond exists between those people. Then I realized, okay,
those people. Then I realized, okay, we're only as good as our team. And when
we're only as good as our team. And when I after Titanic, I put together a team
I after Titanic, I put together a team to do The Impossible, which was Avatar.
to do The Impossible, which was Avatar. Nobody had ever made a film like that.
Nobody had ever made a film like that. It was a new form of cinema. And I
It was a new form of cinema. And I remember we we we fell on our ass. Some
remember we we we fell on our ass. Some of the first things we tried, we were
of the first things we tried, we were face down on the ground, and I we'd stop
face down on the ground, and I we'd stop in the middle of a production day and
in the middle of a production day and pull out a table and sit around it, and
pull out a table and sit around it, and there'd be a bunch of glum faces because
there'd be a bunch of glum faces because it wasn't working. And I say, "Guys,
it wasn't working. And I say, "Guys, this may seem like the hardest day of
this may seem like the hardest day of the production. This is going to be the
the production. This is going to be the day you remember because this is the day
day you remember because this is the day we write page 38 of the manual that
we write page 38 of the manual that tells the rest of the world how this
tells the rest of the world how this stuff works and we're going to do it and
stuff works and we're going to do it and we're going to figure it out." It was
we're going to figure it out." It was like, you know, Sully's never quit,
like, you know, Sully's never quit, right? But and then we did and we
right? But and then we did and we figured it out. And then there's such a
figured it out. And then there's such a feeling of pride and cohesiveness in the
feeling of pride and cohesiveness in the group after that and you start to feel
group after that and you start to feel like, "Okay, bring the next challenge.
like, "Okay, bring the next challenge. we'll figure it out. And the team spirit
we'll figure it out. And the team spirit and the team morale is so high now. This
and the team morale is so high now. This was 19 years ago in 2006.
was 19 years ago in 2006. The team spirit and the and the
The team spirit and the and the cohesiveness is so high now. People
cohesiveness is so high now. People really they they hated when it all came
really they they hated when it all came to an end here a few months ago as
to an end here a few months ago as people dropped off one by one as the
people dropped off one by one as the project was winding down and everybody
project was winding down and everybody just can't wait to get back to the next
just can't wait to get back to the next one. Now, I don't know artistically as a
one. Now, I don't know artistically as a director if that's something I want to
director if that's something I want to do right away next. there's a pretty
do right away next. there's a pretty strong I feel a strong pressure on my
strong I feel a strong pressure on my shoulders
shoulders to do it to bring that team back
to do it to bring that team back together because it's so important for
together because it's so important for them, you know, and that's not a bad
them, you know, and that's not a bad reason to do something at all, you know,
reason to do something at all, you know, to make other people happy is not a bad
to make other people happy is not a bad reason to do something or to make other
reason to do something or to make other people feel fulfilled. Um, but I also
people feel fulfilled. Um, but I also have other things I want to do as well.
have other things I want to do as well. So, it's a little bit of a it's a little
So, it's a little bit of a it's a little bit of going off a cliff. I I I've I've
bit of going off a cliff. I I I've I've told Susie, my wife, that um I feel like
told Susie, my wife, that um I feel like I'm Wy Coyote in a Roadrunner cartoon
I'm Wy Coyote in a Roadrunner cartoon and I just ran off the cliff and I
and I just ran off the cliff and I haven't hit the ground yet. There's that
haven't hit the ground yet. There's that moment where my legs are pinwheeling in
moment where my legs are pinwheeling in the air, you know?
the air, you know? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> But that's okay. That's okay. The
>> But that's okay. That's okay. The scariest moments are always the moments
scariest moments are always the moments of the greatest opportunity, I think.
of the greatest opportunity, I think. How how do you like when you're building
How how do you like when you're building a universe with people, you're building
a universe with people, you're building lives and hearts and worlds that connect
lives and hearts and worlds that connect on such a deep level? You I feel like
on such a deep level? You I feel like when I'm listening to you, I'm like
when I'm listening to you, I'm like everything you do is highly emotional
everything you do is highly emotional and emotive and heartfelt and deep and
and emotive and heartfelt and deep and you can't help but cry when you're
you can't help but cry when you're watching your work, you know. Maybe not
watching your work, you know. Maybe not Terminator, but but what follows. Or
Terminator, but but what follows. Or maybe maybe
maybe maybe >> Terminator 2 when the Terminator go on.
>> Terminator 2 when the Terminator go on. when he goes down when he goes down into
when he goes down when he goes down into the steel and his POV goes to nothing.
the steel and his POV goes to nothing. Come on. People People tear up.
Come on. People People tear up. >> Yes. Yes. No. And so you see that and
>> Yes. Yes. No. And so you see that and I'm like it feels like the emotion of
I'm like it feels like the emotion of creating it,
creating it, >> whatever we're getting out of it is
>> whatever we're getting out of it is because the emotion that's creating it
because the emotion that's creating it is going into it. And this team that you
is going into it. And this team that you are
are >> curating is bringing all of that
>> curating is bringing all of that emotion. as you said, whether it was the
emotion. as you said, whether it was the pantios that are building the physical
pantios that are building the physical buildings in the movie or whether it's
buildings in the movie or whether it's the emotion that the characters are
the emotion that the characters are feeling and Tuk is feeling and etc.
feeling and Tuk is feeling and etc. How do you even start to detach from
How do you even start to detach from that as a team when you've been immersed
that as a team when you've been immersed in it for decades at this point?
in it for decades at this point? >> Maybe you don't,
>> Maybe you don't, maybe you just keep going. I don't know.
maybe you just keep going. I don't know. Well, look, I mean, there are there are
Well, look, I mean, there are there are a number of milestones here that have to
a number of milestones here that have to be met. First of all, the film has to
be met. First of all, the film has to succeed financially, and that's not a
succeed financially, and that's not a given. Everybody just assumes it's a
given. Everybody just assumes it's a no-brainer, but the theatrical
no-brainer, but the theatrical marketplace has been dwindling and and
marketplace has been dwindling and and collapsing about 35%. It hasn't
collapsing about 35%. It hasn't rebounded, and people's habit patterns
rebounded, and people's habit patterns have changed. And so, the thing that I
have changed. And so, the thing that I grew up and and and love and and feel
grew up and and and love and and feel such um uh strong sense of passion for
such um uh strong sense of passion for may be becoming obsolete.
may be becoming obsolete. maybe and the cost of making movies is
maybe and the cost of making movies is continuously going up and this and the
continuously going up and this and the demand is falling. So that's a little
demand is falling. So that's a little bit of a death spiral right there, you
bit of a death spiral right there, you know, and so maybe it's maybe it's going
know, and so maybe it's maybe it's going to be okay. We were sort of successful
to be okay. We were sort of successful if we can do the next one cheaper, we
if we can do the next one cheaper, we can continue, right? And then there's
can continue, right? And then there's also that wild card. You know, there are
also that wild card. You know, there are other projects that I have that I've
other projects that I have that I've been sort of sitting on in the in the
been sort of sitting on in the in the background. And there's a thing that I
background. And there's a thing that I want to do about Hiroshima. I bought a
want to do about Hiroshima. I bought a book recently, but it's a story I've
book recently, but it's a story I've been following and and you know,
been following and and you know, excavating and researching for really my
excavating and researching for really my whole adult life. It's something that I
whole adult life. It's something that I really feel strongly I need to do at
really feel strongly I need to do at some point. It's not a big film. Sounds
some point. It's not a big film. Sounds like it would be, but it's not a big
like it would be, but it's not a big film in the sense of an Avatar film.
film in the sense of an Avatar film. It's not a four-year commitment. It
It's not a four-year commitment. It might be a one-year commitment. Um, so I
might be a one-year commitment. Um, so I need to do that. And so, you know,
need to do that. And so, you know, >> why why is that so meaningful to you?
>> why why is that so meaningful to you? What about it?
What about it? >> I just think that we live in this world.
>> I just think that we live in this world. I mean, I think Katherine Bigalow's film
I mean, I think Katherine Bigalow's film title is it's kind of growing on me. The
title is it's kind of growing on me. The House of Dynamite. It's like we live in
House of Dynamite. It's like we live in a house. Imagine you live in a house and
a house. Imagine you live in a house and you feel perfectly normal and you go
you feel perfectly normal and you go about your business and you're chopping
about your business and you're chopping onions for the guacamole and you're
onions for the guacamole and you're going to watch your favorite show, but
going to watch your favorite show, but the basement is filled with dynamite and
the basement is filled with dynamite and it could go off at any moment. That's
it could go off at any moment. That's the world that we live in, you know, and
the world that we live in, you know, and that it hits that metaphor. And so, uh,
that it hits that metaphor. And so, uh, it's not a metaphor. It's it's our
it's not a metaphor. It's it's our world. So I I I feel that we have a a
world. So I I I feel that we have a a kind of a systematic forgetting of
kind of a systematic forgetting of history, you know, just at at that
history, you know, just at at that remove. And we're enough removed from
remove. And we're enough removed from the event of of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
the event of of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I think people need to be reminded what
I think people need to be reminded what these weapons really are and what they
these weapons really are and what they really do. Of course, the the punchline
really do. Of course, the the punchline of the movie is going to be the card at
of the movie is going to be the card at the end that says there are 12,000
the end that says there are 12,000 nuclear warheads deployed in the world
nuclear warheads deployed in the world today. Each one is 100 to 500 times more
today. Each one is 100 to 500 times more powerful than the one that destroyed
powerful than the one that destroyed Hiroshima. And you're going to witness
Hiroshima. And you're going to witness it and you're going to go through it
it and you're going to go through it with the main characters and it's not
with the main characters and it's not gonna be pretty. It might be a hard film
gonna be pretty. It might be a hard film to watch. In fact, it might be my least
to watch. In fact, it might be my least successful film. But I just feel it's
successful film. But I just feel it's it's that that's that thing of duty. You
it's that that's that thing of duty. You know, you're all about purpose. We
know, you're all about purpose. We define our own purpose.
define our own purpose. >> You know, we choose purpose for
>> You know, we choose purpose for ourselves. And it doesn't all have to
ourselves. And it doesn't all have to be, you know, obviously uh benevolent
be, you know, obviously uh benevolent like, you know, maybe helping out a soup
like, you know, maybe helping out a soup kitchen and and and easing the pain of
kitchen and and and easing the pain of others. It might be something that's
others. It might be something that's more of a warning that helps helps guide
more of a warning that helps helps guide us away from the rocks of of destruction
us away from the rocks of of destruction of civilization. As an artist,
of civilization. As an artist, >> I think it's important to consider these
>> I think it's important to consider these things, you know, and not feel
things, you know, and not feel powerless,
powerless, >> cuz it's easy in a in a world of 8
>> cuz it's easy in a in a world of 8 billion people to feel powerless. And
billion people to feel powerless. And yet empirically I can look at it, oh I'm
yet empirically I can look at it, oh I'm reaching millions of people. I'm
reaching millions of people. I'm reaching hundreds of millions of people
reaching hundreds of millions of people with a movie like Avatar, you know,
with a movie like Avatar, you know, maybe I won't reach as many people with
maybe I won't reach as many people with a movie like Ghost of Hiroshima, but
a movie like Ghost of Hiroshima, but I'll reach some,
I'll reach some, >> you know, and you never know. You you
>> you know, and you never know. You you never know the the causal chain that
never know the the causal chain that that puts a person at a moment where
that puts a person at a moment where they've been influenced by something.
they've been influenced by something. >> But you have it even in Fire and Ash. I
>> But you have it even in Fire and Ash. I mean that that scene that you were
mean that that scene that you were referencing without giving too much away
referencing without giving too much away of Quaridge actually arming you know and
of Quaridge actually arming you know and there all of a sudden you see the
there all of a sudden you see the becoming of terrorists like that idea of
becoming of terrorists like that idea of the government you know all these
the government you know all these messages are just I I feel like there
messages are just I I feel like there are so many deep layers to the movie you
are so many deep layers to the movie you could keep going whether it's
could keep going whether it's >> family whether it's racism whether it's
equality whether it's equity whether it's you know whether it goes down all
it's you know whether it goes down all the way through to absolutely
the way through to absolutely >> governmental politics that we're seeing
>> governmental politics that we're seeing today I mean the the movie is filled
today I mean the the movie is filled with so many powerful messages
with so many powerful messages >> and just seeing each other, you know, it
>> and just seeing each other, you know, it all ultimately it all goes back to
all ultimately it all goes back to connection and
connection and >> is that the root?
>> is that the root? >> Yeah, I think so. You know, there are
>> Yeah, I think so. You know, there are two moments in the film where people say
two moments in the film where people say they see each other and they understand
they see each other and they understand each other and one gives you this
each other and one gives you this feeling of vast dread when when Verog
feeling of vast dread when when Verog says she sees Cage and she sees this
says she sees Cage and she sees this vision of destruction and for herself,
vision of destruction and for herself, you know, she's she's like uh you know,
you know, she's she's like uh you know, Kie.
Kie. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Right. Uh and then when Nati sees
>> Right. Uh and then when Nati sees spider, you know, um
spider, you know, um >> finally
>> finally >> and there's a bridge across the two
>> and there's a bridge across the two species, across that divide, across that
species, across that divide, across that because she becomes quite a racist in
because she becomes quite a racist in the film and that's by design.
the film and that's by design. >> Uh it's like we take our most beloved
>> Uh it's like we take our most beloved character and we challenge you to really
character and we challenge you to really walk in her shoes and go the hard yards
walk in her shoes and go the hard yards of what loss and grief can do. And I
of what loss and grief can do. And I think about all these people and
think about all these people and everything that they've lost in the
everything that they've lost in the world, whether it's in Gaza or Sudan or
world, whether it's in Gaza or Sudan or Ukraine or wherever. And how does that
Ukraine or wherever. And how does that not generate just a hatred that will
not generate just a hatred that will span generations? Well, that's the cycle
span generations? Well, that's the cycle that we have to break, right? You know,
that we have to break, right? You know, Lo Lok says something at the beginning
Lo Lok says something at the beginning and it's kind of like a little cheeky to
and it's kind of like a little cheeky to actually say your theme out loud, you
actually say your theme out loud, you know, in the voice over here. I'm going
know, in the voice over here. I'm going to tell you what the movie's about.
to tell you what the movie's about. Okay.
Okay. uh you know and he says the the fire of
uh you know and he says the the fire of ash leaves uh the fire of hate bring
ash leaves uh the fire of hate bring leaves only the ash of grief but he
leaves only the ash of grief but he doesn't complete it which is from that
doesn't complete it which is from that ash of grief comes that fire of hate
ash of grief comes that fire of hate again and the cycle perpetuates
again and the cycle perpetuates indefinitely so how do you break it
indefinitely so how do you break it right that's the challenge I think
right that's the challenge I think that's presented in the movie you know
that's presented in the movie you know how do you break it and how you how do
how do you break it and how you how do you know when it's not about about
you know when it's not about about hatred and revenge and when you fight
hatred and revenge and when you fight defensively for the things that you
defensively for the things that you value, you know, as opposed to
value, you know, as opposed to offensively going out after somebody to
offensively going out after somebody to punish them for revenge, to take what's
punish them for revenge, to take what's theirs, you know. Um, and you see all of
theirs, you know. Um, and you see all of that happening in in the world right now
that happening in in the world right now all over the place. And, uh, you know,
all over the place. And, uh, you know, you wonder this is I'm going to circle
you wonder this is I'm going to circle this back to AI for a second. The thing
this back to AI for a second. The thing that will the thing that the the the
that will the thing that the the the proponents of artificial super
proponents of artificial super intelligence always say is, well, we'll
intelligence always say is, well, we'll we'll manage the alignment problem. will
we'll manage the alignment problem. will align AI to our common good as human
align AI to our common good as human beings. But we can't agree on a damn
beings. But we can't agree on a damn thing. We can't agree on what's right
thing. We can't agree on what's right and wrong, what's ethical, what's moral.
and wrong, what's ethical, what's moral. You know, Republicans's idea of that is
You know, Republicans's idea of that is very different from a Democrats, uh, a
very different from a Democrats, uh, a Muslim, a Christian, a Hindu, you know,
Muslim, a Christian, a Hindu, you know, a Shintoist, whatever it is, everybody's
a Shintoist, whatever it is, everybody's got a different opinion and we can't
got a different opinion and we can't agree on anything. So, how are we going
agree on anything. So, how are we going to suddenly form this wonderful moral
to suddenly form this wonderful moral consensus so we can teach it to
consensus so we can teach it to something smarter than us that we can't
something smarter than us that we can't control? I mean, if that's not the the
control? I mean, if that's not the the the biggest recipe for disaster I've
the biggest recipe for disaster I've ever heard in my life, what is, you
ever heard in my life, what is, you know, now I am a science fiction fan and
know, now I am a science fiction fan and it always goes into the darkest
it always goes into the darkest possible, you know, scenario because
possible, you know, scenario because that's where science fiction goes
that's where science fiction goes because it's meant to be a warning to us
because it's meant to be a warning to us about possible futures. But, okay, I
about possible futures. But, okay, I we're living in a science fiction world
we're living in a science fiction world right now, you know. So I look I look at
right now, you know. So I look I look at you. I look into your eyes. I see your
you. I look into your eyes. I see your kind of soulfulness and your
kind of soulfulness and your enlightenment and what all the things
enlightenment and what all the things that you do and why you do it. And I
that you do and why you do it. And I think all right that's why we're going
think all right that's why we're going to make it because there are people who
to make it because there are people who are practitioners of empathy and
are practitioners of empathy and connection and they're out there and
connection and they're out there and they are legion. They just don't ever
they are legion. They just don't ever seem to get into positions of power and
seem to get into positions of power and and and you know that where it really
and and you know that where it really makes a big makes a big difference. It
makes a big makes a big difference. It just seems like all the wrong people
just seems like all the wrong people elevate. I don't know how you feel about
elevate. I don't know how you feel about that and I don't know if that keeps you
that and I don't know if that keeps you up at night.
up at night. >> Yeah. Well, I I think that's partly why
>> Yeah. Well, I I think that's partly why I try and do what I do because I think I
I try and do what I do because I think I saw that for a long time. And of course,
saw that for a long time. And of course, what I love about the way you build
what I love about the way you build character, which is true of me or
character, which is true of me or anyone, is that no one's perfect.
anyone, is that no one's perfect. Everyone's flawed and has
Everyone's flawed and has >> multiple, you know, when you look at all
>> multiple, you know, when you look at all of the characters in Fire and Ash, like
of the characters in Fire and Ash, like they're not just good and bad. Like that
they're not just good and bad. Like that would be and the hence the scene we were
would be and the hence the scene we were just talking about with spider like that
just talking about with spider like that moment is so I mean I can't believe you
moment is so I mean I can't believe you went there. I was like wow this is like
went there. I was like wow this is like >> really testing. Yeah,
>> really testing. Yeah, >> you know, everything that I believe to
>> you know, everything that I believe to be true about this family, and I'm not
be true about this family, and I'm not giving it away, hence speaking in broad
giving it away, hence speaking in broad terms, but so, so to be really clear,
terms, but so, so to be really clear, there's no one who's perfect or flawless
there's no one who's perfect or flawless or, you know, and and of course, I have
or, you know, and and of course, I have all of those challenges myself, but
all of those challenges myself, but >> I find that what I try and do by having
>> I find that what I try and do by having this platform and by having these types
this platform and by having these types of conversations with people like
of conversations with people like yourself and allow for these we've like
yourself and allow for these we've like my vision and I think you'll relate to
my vision and I think you'll relate to this based on what you were saying, I
this based on what you were saying, I love the bell curve, too. So when I
love the bell curve, too. So when I started this, my vision was to make
started this, my vision was to make wisdom go viral.
wisdom go viral. >> I said I wanted to find a way that
>> I said I wanted to find a way that hundreds of millions or billions of
hundreds of millions or billions of people would engage with themes.
people would engage with themes. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> That were at one point saved for the
>> That were at one point saved for the elite or niches.
elite or niches. >> Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. >> And we do that. We use 750 million views
>> And we do that. We use 750 million views a month.
a month. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> About conversations like this, which is
>> About conversations like this, which is proof to me
proof to me >> that people want this. And so I think we
>> that people want this. And so I think we may I agree with you. I don't think
may I agree with you. I don't think we'll do it through the traditional
we'll do it through the traditional means.
means. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> But art and creativity and now the
>> But art and creativity and now the microphone belongs to everyone. There is
microphone belongs to everyone. There is an opportunity to to galvanize community
an opportunity to to galvanize community and connect to these higher
and connect to these higher >> parts. We we have to do what we can do.
>> parts. We we have to do what we can do. Our voice may carry not very far or it
Our voice may carry not very far or it may ripple outward very very far. We
may ripple outward very very far. We have to do what we can do. And for me,
have to do what we can do. And for me, what drives me is being a parent, you
what drives me is being a parent, you know, and knowing that there's there's a
know, and knowing that there's there's a a legacy that's being handed to my kids
a legacy that's being handed to my kids by my generation.
by my generation. And I just want it to be the best that
And I just want it to be the best that it can be. It's not going to be perfect.
it can be. It's not going to be perfect. It's not even might not even be that
It's not even might not even be that great, but everything that people like
great, but everything that people like yourself and and hopefully I do can
yourself and and hopefully I do can improve it incrementally,
improve it incrementally, you know. Um,
you know. Um, and so anyway, you just you just keep
and so anyway, you just you just keep banging away at it, right?
banging away at it, right? >> Yeah. Well, I think I think the stories
>> Yeah. Well, I think I think the stories you tell do that in the most profound
you tell do that in the most profound way. And I think I do think that art
way. And I think I do think that art transcends so many things in the world
transcends so many things in the world as you said and anyone can sit in that
as you said and anyone can sit in that room, forget their designation or their
room, forget their designation or their seat or their status and watch a movie
seat or their status and watch a movie about humanity and connection. But
about humanity and connection. But >> well, you you're using the term
>> well, you you're using the term connection and I think of that as an
connection and I think of that as an extension of our our impulse to empathy.
extension of our our impulse to empathy. We have a natural human impulse toward
We have a natural human impulse toward empathy.
empathy. >> Yeah. I think we all have it unless
>> Yeah. I think we all have it unless you're a psychopath and that's 1% of the
you're a psychopath and that's 1% of the population. So 99% of the population has
population. So 99% of the population has an impulse toward empathy. I think where
an impulse toward empathy. I think where empathy goes ary is that it it's narrow
empathy goes ary is that it it's narrow and powerful as opposed to diff more
and powerful as opposed to diff more diffuse. Right? So when we have uh an
diffuse. Right? So when we have uh an empathy for our family, for our
empathy for our family, for our children, for our friends, then
children, for our friends, then everybody else starts to look like an
everybody else starts to look like an enemy. Mhm.
enemy. Mhm. >> And I think it's that narrow spotlight
>> And I think it's that narrow spotlight of empathy where where it breaks down.
of empathy where where it breaks down. On the other hand, we can hear a story
On the other hand, we can hear a story about somebody in another state or
about somebody in another state or another country and all of a sudden
another country and all of a sudden we're weeping for that person because
we're weeping for that person because our mirror on allows us to feel their
our mirror on allows us to feel their pain.
pain. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Right. But we can't feel the pain of the
>> Right. But we can't feel the pain of the world. And but we have to we have to we
world. And but we have to we have to we have to be able to expand it. Not where
have to be able to expand it. Not where it crushes us, but to where we don't see
it crushes us, but to where we don't see the the other as an enemy.
the the other as an enemy. >> Yes. But somebody who's maybe an equal
>> Yes. But somebody who's maybe an equal victim with us of you know a a kind of
victim with us of you know a a kind of um a world that uh can go can go against
um a world that uh can go can go against you and you know medically and any any
you and you know medically and any any kind of moment you know things can go
kind of moment you know things can go against you and there are people that
against you and there are people that are less fortunate people that are more
are less fortunate people that are more fortunate. Um but never people never
fortunate. Um but never people never feel like they have enough. That's the
feel like they have enough. That's the problem. They never it's not that
problem. They never it's not that they're greedy. It's that they never
they're greedy. It's that they never have enough to feel completely secure
have enough to feel completely secure and safe for their family.
and safe for their family. >> So there's a certain point where you
>> So there's a certain point where you have to be willing to risk your own
have to be willing to risk your own family and risk your own comfort for the
family and risk your own comfort for the good of a of a greater group. And that's
good of a of a greater group. And that's a very very hard place for for most
a very very hard place for for most people to go.
people to go. >> Absolutely.
>> Absolutely. >> You know, but there's an image that I
>> You know, but there's an image that I always wanted in one of the Avatar
always wanted in one of the Avatar movies, which is seeing that world from
movies, which is seeing that world from orbit at night where you see everything
orbit at night where you see everything connected. you know that those little
connected. you know that those little glowing,
glowing, you know, you you basically see the mind
you know, you you basically see the mind or the heart of Awa of that connected
or the heart of Awa of that connected connectedness. And so I managed to
connectedness. And so I managed to squeeze it in. I managed to squeeze it
squeeze it in. I managed to squeeze it into this this film and hopefully people
into this this film and hopefully people will resonate, you know, for what it
will resonate, you know, for what it what it means, what it's meant to mean.
what it means, what it's meant to mean. Anyway,
Anyway, >> James, uh I have a warning from your
>> James, uh I have a warning from your team because you have to get after. So I
team because you have to get after. So I want to uh end with a final five that we
want to uh end with a final five that we do with every guest. Uh I could talk to
do with every guest. Uh I could talk to you for hours and I hope we do get to
you for hours and I hope we do get to talk more offline but uh we end every
talk more offline but uh we end every interview with these final five. They
interview with these final five. They have to be answered in one word to one
have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.
sentence maximum. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> So James Cameron
>> So James Cameron >> I can do a six paragraph long sentence
>> I can do a six paragraph long sentence but
but >> Okay. So we asked these to every guest.
>> Okay. So we asked these to every guest. James Cameron these are your final five.
James Cameron these are your final five. Question one. What is the best advice
Question one. What is the best advice you've ever heard or received?
you've ever heard or received? >> I had a teacher that said
>> I had a teacher that said you have unlimited potential.
and he meant it >> and it it changed a lot for me.
>> and it it changed a lot for me. >> It's a great answer.
>> It's a great answer. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Uh question number two, what is the
>> Uh question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or
worst advice you've ever heard or received?
>> Roger Corman told me to always sit down on set.
on set. >> You stand up a lot.
>> You stand up a lot. >> I never sit down.
>> I never sit down. >> That's a great answer. Uh question
>> That's a great answer. Uh question number three. What's the hardest thing
number three. What's the hardest thing you've learned about yourself that
you've learned about yourself that shaped your art?
shaped your art? >> The movie is not more important than the
>> The movie is not more important than the process of working with people to make
process of working with people to make the movie.
the movie. >> Wow.
>> Wow. >> That took 40 years. No, maybe 30.
>> That took 40 years. No, maybe 30. >> The people are more important.
>> The people are more important. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Well, it's beautiful. Uh, question
>> Well, it's beautiful. Uh, question number four.
number four. Tell us the real reason why Jack
Tell us the real reason why Jack couldn't fit on the door. Ah, you went
couldn't fit on the door. Ah, you went there. I had to
there. I had to >> Okay, this interview's over.
>> Okay, this interview's over. Um
Um because his chivalry demanded it.
because his chivalry demanded it. >> It's a great answer.
>> It's a great answer. >> He loved her and he would not take a
>> He loved her and he would not take a chance that they could both survive if
chance that they could both survive if they could both die.
they could both die. >> That's a great answer.
>> That's a great answer. >> Yeah. And by the way, Romeo and Juliet
>> Yeah. And by the way, Romeo and Juliet had to die. But there sacrifice, duty in
had to die. But there sacrifice, duty in your themes. Just there's so
your themes. Just there's so >> love, love, death, sacrifice, duty.
>> love, love, death, sacrifice, duty. They're all related and they're all
They're all related and they're all thematic in all of my films.
thematic in all of my films. >> Why do you think that is?
>> Why do you think that is? >> I don't know.
>> I don't know. >> You still discovering that? Still
>> You still discovering that? Still curious about that where that comes
curious about that where that comes from.
from. >> Can I speak in longer?
>> Can I speak in longer? >> Yeah, please. Yeah. Yeah, that's a big
>> Yeah, please. Yeah. Yeah, that's a big question. I don't know because I these
question. I don't know because I these are things that I'm finding later in
are things that I'm finding later in life I actually am confronting and
life I actually am confronting and having to deal with but in but in early
having to deal with but in but in early life they just made sense to me.
life they just made sense to me. >> You know uh I always say all my movies
>> You know uh I always say all my movies are love stories but they're not
are love stories but they're not necessarily conventional love stories.
necessarily conventional love stories. >> Duty and sacrifice are things that I I
>> Duty and sacrifice are things that I I don't even know if it's incultterated.
don't even know if it's incultterated. It might even be just biological. It
It might even be just biological. It might just be innate.
might just be innate. >> I don't know or some combination. I
>> I don't know or some combination. I think Canadians in general tend to be
think Canadians in general tend to be less selfish. Um, but you know, you
less selfish. Um, but you know, you can't generalize about an entire
can't generalize about an entire population and there were some real
population and there were some real in the town I grew up in. So,
in the town I grew up in. So, you know,
you know, um, I don't know where that comes from,
um, I don't know where that comes from, >> but it's a belief system. Definitely a
>> but it's a belief system. Definitely a belief system.
belief system. >> I'm glad I asked you that question now
>> I'm glad I asked you that question now because we got a got an answer that just
because we got a got an answer that just Yeah. show shares so much more of your
Yeah. show shares so much more of your heart and and where it all comes from.
heart and and where it all comes from. Uh, fifth and final question. And we ask
Uh, fifth and final question. And we ask this to every guest who's ever been on
this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law
the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to
that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?
A law. Wow. Legislating morality. That's a hard
Wow. Legislating morality. That's a hard thing.
See the person in front of you. I don't know how you'd enforce that. Just see
know how you'd enforce that. Just see them.
them. What does it mean to see?
What does it mean to see? >> Uh see who they are. See
>> Uh see who they are. See see see who they are on the inside.
see see who they are on the inside. You know in in the avatar universe I see
You know in in the avatar universe I see you can mean I understand you. It can
you can mean I understand you. It can mean very simply I see you. You're here.
mean very simply I see you. You're here. Hello. It's like hello. It can be I see
Hello. It's like hello. It can be I see something about you I never saw before.
something about you I never saw before. I understand you. It can mean I love
I understand you. It can mean I love you. meaning that fullness of
you. meaning that fullness of understanding another person that goes
understanding another person that goes to a to a higher level. It's got many
to a to a higher level. It's got many layers of meaning in in Na'vi lore. It's
layers of meaning in in Na'vi lore. It's it's very deceptively simple, you know,
it's very deceptively simple, you know, but it goes back to that empathy thing.
but it goes back to that empathy thing. It goes back to the mirror neuron. It
It goes back to the mirror neuron. It goes back to projecting yourself into
goes back to projecting yourself into their situation. I also find that
their situation. I also find that there's a little thing I do where it
there's a little thing I do where it doesn't matter where I am, especially if
doesn't matter where I am, especially if I'm in a car or I'm just meeting some
I'm in a car or I'm just meeting some driver that's driving me from the
driver that's driving me from the airport or I'm on the street or I'm
airport or I'm on the street or I'm killing time someplace. I just start
killing time someplace. I just start talking to people and I want to hear
talking to people and I want to hear their story, you know, people that
their story, you know, people that people that the average person would
people that the average person would think that a person like me would never
think that a person like me would never talk to. you know, the the janitor, the
talk to. you know, the the janitor, the the the guy at selling the churro, the
the the guy at selling the churro, the you know, I just want to talk to them.
you know, I just want to talk to them. Maybe it's a writer's instinct, you
Maybe it's a writer's instinct, you know, to want to hear stories because I
know, to want to hear stories because I think everybody is a universe. And you
think everybody is a universe. And you know, that sort of Trump idea that
know, that sort of Trump idea that they're all a bunch of losers and
they're all a bunch of losers and they're not worth worth anything drives
they're not worth worth anything drives me insane,
me insane, >> you know, cuz it's not about social
>> you know, cuz it's not about social standing or status or having a PhD or or
standing or status or having a PhD or or the argument from authority. Oh, his
the argument from authority. Oh, his argument may, you know, his opinion is
argument may, you know, his opinion is more important than than that person.
more important than than that person. >> You know, I just want to hear
>> You know, I just want to hear everybody's stories. I find them all
everybody's stories. I find them all fascinating because we all are on this
fascinating because we all are on this unique path and we're all our camera is
unique path and we're all our camera is viewing the world from a unique
viewing the world from a unique position.
position. >> I felt that most in uh watching Sully
>> I felt that most in uh watching Sully and Courage's relationship through fire
and Courage's relationship through fire and ash.
and ash. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> There's a lot of seeing each other.
>> There's a lot of seeing each other. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> In different moments which in moments
>> In different moments which in moments you don't expect it.
you don't expect it. >> Yeah. And you it it the story definitely
>> Yeah. And you it it the story definitely teases to to a potential.
teases to to a potential. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> You know.
>> You know. >> Yeah. Well, we can't give everything
>> Yeah. Well, we can't give everything away.
away. >> Well, I can't wait to watch it again.
>> Well, I can't wait to watch it again. I'm going to take my family when I get
I'm going to take my family when I get back to London for Christmas. I'm so
back to London for Christmas. I'm so excited. James, I hope we do see four
excited. James, I hope we do see four and five happen. I can't wait to watch
and five happen. I can't wait to watch them.
them. >> We'll see. We'll see. We'll
>> We'll see. We'll see. We'll >> see them. But uh such a pleasure sitting
>> see them. But uh such a pleasure sitting with you. Thank you for your energy,
with you. Thank you for your energy, your presence, your connection with me
your presence, your connection with me today and uh I hope for many more. So,
today and uh I hope for many more. So, thank you so much.
thank you so much. >> Well, thanks. Thanks, Jay. Uh really
>> Well, thanks. Thanks, Jay. Uh really really a wonderful interview, you know,
really a wonderful interview, you know, and I'm glad we got to go to important
and I'm glad we got to go to important meaningful things instead of all the
meaningful things instead of all the stupid stuff I normally get asked.
stupid stuff I normally get asked. >> I only asked you one.
>> I only asked you one. >> You did. You You definitely went there
>> You did. You You definitely went there on that one. But you know what? At this
on that one. But you know what? At this point, it's like there are worse
point, it's like there are worse problems to have than people still
problems to have than people still arguing about the demise of a character
arguing about the demise of a character from 28 years ago.
from 28 years ago. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> You know, as a filmmaker, it's kind of
>> You know, as a filmmaker, it's kind of like, great, thank you. Thank you for
like, great, thank you. Thank you for that.
that. >> Well, thank you. If you love this
>> Well, thank you. If you love this episode, I need you to listen to one of
episode, I need you to listen to one of my favorite conversations ever. It's
my favorite conversations ever. It's with the one and only Tom Holland on how
with the one and only Tom Holland on how to overcome your social anxiety,
to overcome your social anxiety, especially in situations where you're
especially in situations where you're not drinking and everyone else is. We
not drinking and everyone else is. We talk about his sobriety journey and so
talk about his sobriety journey and so much more. He gets really personal. I
much more. He gets really personal. I can't wait for you to hear it. It's
can't wait for you to hear it. It's going to blow your mind. The quote is,
going to blow your mind. The quote is, "If you have a problem with me, text me.
"If you have a problem with me, text me. And if you don't have my number, you
And if you don't have my number, you don't know me well enough to have a
don't know me well enough to have a problem with
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