This content is an interview with a former CIA officer, John Kuryaku, discussing his career, the CIA's operations, recruitment tactics, and significant events like 9/11 and the hunt for al-Qaeda operatives. It also touches upon the influence of foreign intelligence agencies, particularly Mossad, on US policy and the complexities of international relations.
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spell your name.
So I spell it which made me angry and
then he says to me like this, you are
Jewish. The Israelis are the best
intelligence service in the world.
>> Are they better than the CIA?
>> I think they are. Yeah, they're
certainly deadlier.
I'm from the CIA in Washington. I know
exactly who you are and what you're
doing here.
>> Most were involved. The CIA was the
guilty party here because the CIA did
know that the hijackers were in the
United States.
>> What do you mean by very rich?
>> To work with the CIA 95% of the time
it's money. And so the CIA can kill
anybody that it wants to kill. And they
have a meeting every Tuesday on that.
>> The the teams go all around the world.
They kill the targets and then they meet
again the next Tuesday and come up with
the next list of people to kill. It's sick.
sick.
>> Do the CIA work with the with Hollywood?
Oh, he is. In fact, there's an office in
the CIA's Office of Public Affairs whose
job it is just to work with Hollywood
Studios, nothing else.
>> So, [music] you went to Pakistan and
your objective was to find Abua.
>> Like, that's al-Qaeda. That's what we're
so afraid of. They're children.
>> Once you start torturing someone,
they're going to admit to stuff that
they haven't done. And you could see the
exact moment when he said, "Oh my god,
the Americans have me." Because he
John Kyako, welcome to Thank you so much
for having me. Thank you for coming. Um,
so there's a lot of things we'd like to
talk about today and a lot of stuff that
I've been reading. Um, especially I've
read your book, The Reluctant Spy.
>> Thank you for So now I know what [music]
your career the 15ear career in the CIA
and there are so many questions I want
to ask about. Um but if we were thinking
maybe what's the best place to start
from um you being someone who worked 15
years you have 10 honorary medals is it
that you've gotten one of the biggest
one the the biggest one of them is you
got the counterterrorism medal >> right
>> right
>> um and having a lot of experience in the
CIA if we were to understand for us to
kickstart our discussion today what's
the main job of the CIA why is it there
>> um actually you can boil it down to its
basic tenants. It's to recruit spies, to
steal secrets, and then to analyze those
secrets so that the American policy
maker can make the best informed policy.
So, we're specifically talking about the
president, the vice president, the
national security adviser, and the
secretaries of state and defense. Those
are the customers.
>> So, those are those are your main audience.
audience.
>> That's right.
>> So, you provide the best information
through recruiting spies. When you say
recruiting spies, do you is it spies in
in different countries? So So the CIA
focuses on what's happening outside the US.
US.
>> Yeah, this is this is an important point
actually that most Americans don't
understand. It is that the CIA is
focused overseas. The FBI is focused
domestically. The CIA doesn't care what
Americans are doing on a day-to-day
basis. That's the FBI's jurisdiction.
The CIA focuses only on recruiting
foreign spies to steal foreign
intelligence and to give it back to them.
them.
>> But there are controversies about the
CIA being involved in domestic stuff.
>> Yeah. And and there are credible
allegations that the CIA has been
involved in domestic operations mostly pre975.
pre975.
The CIA was just an outof control
organization until 1975. It was
experimenting on American citizens. It
was recruiting Americans. It was dosing
Americans with LSD just to see how they
responded. It was um following and
bugging the homes of uh civil rights
activists and political activists,
especially people who opposed the
Vietnam War. That all changed in 1975
with what we call the Church Committee
and the Pike Committee. They became the
Senate Intelligence Committee and the
House Intelligence Committee. and they
passed a law saying that the CIA was not
permitted to operate domestically.
>> Okay. So, let's focus on what on on on
your experience in the in the CIA and
then throughout your experience uh we're
going to talk about important stuff that
happened that changed the Middle East
and changed the world world frankly.
>> Um but before we lead up to September 11th
11th
>> Mhm. uh which was one of the biggest
pivots as um you were working in Greece
before that.
State Department language services. Okay.
Okay.
And you even stayed in in Bahrain for a
bit for three years.
>> I spent two years in Bahrain. Two of the
happiest years of my life.
>> I served in Kuwait and I served in Saudi
Arabia. It's uh
>> we're going to dedicate um a full
episode um about what about your service
in Kuwait
>> and especially the invasion and you've
we've we've had so many episodes about
what has happened in 1990. Um but we had
it from a Kuwaiti perspective. it would
be nice to to to talk to you about it
because you were the main guy basically
the CIA guy in 1990.
>> Um so yeah we we'll do that uh on a
later stage but um so you were in Athens
and you were before going to Athens you
were an analyst. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> And then you switched to ops. Yes.
>> So let's what's the what's the
difference between being an analyst in
the CIA and and being an an operations
guy? analysts are are stationed in the
CIA's directorate of intelligence and
operations people in the directorate of
operations. And back then, you know,
never the two shall meet. So, as an
analyst, your job is to sit in a cubicle
about this size and think the big
thoughts. So, you're reading CIA cables,
State Department reporting cables, NSA
telephone intercepts, uh, cables from
the Pentagon and from the Pentagon's
people overseas, and foreign press. So,
you become an expert on the country that
you're covering. That's all you're
reading all day long, five or six days a
week. And then you write papers that
mostly nobody reads
>> or you respond to questions from the
president. Most importantly, you write
for something called the president's
daily brief. This is a 16page
um report that's written for the
president six days a week on everything
that has happened overnight and it's
briefed to the president, the vice
president, the national security
adviser, the secretaries and deputy
secretaries of state and defense, the
chairman and joint chairman of the g of
the chiefs of staff and uh and a handful
of people at the White House and the
National Security Council. So it's like
um it's like a newspaper a foreign
policy newspaper comes to the president
and the main people
>> and it's very very highly classified.
It's the most sensitive report.
>> What would be typically in government?
>> What would be typically on let's say
>> I'll give you an example. Yeah.
>> And it's it's safe to say this now that
so many years have passed. I noticed in
late 1990
that Saddam Hussein was very quietly
moving milit senior military officers
out of their positions and he was making
them ambassadors in weird places like
Philippines or Burma, Myanmar, you just
getting them out and he was replacing
them with people from his Tigriti clan.
Saddam was from Alja, this village in
Tit. And so he was mostly taking people
from Aja and putting them in these
senior positions. They were
inexperienced, but he knew he could
trust them because they were relatively
close relatives. So I noticed this and I
said it to my boss
um and I said, "These these are barely
being announced in the Iraqi press and
nobody's even commenting about them." He
said, "Well, what does it mean?" I said,
"He's worried about an uprising, and so
he's replacing people with his closest
relatives, but they don't have any
military experience, so it's good for
him, but it's better for us."
>> So he said, "You have to tell the
president that."
>> So I wrote the whole thing for the
president. They gave me the first page
in the book that next day. And then in
the margin, the president wrote,
"Thanks. I appreciate it." And sent it
back to me.
was present at
>> uh that was George HW Bush.
>> George HW
>> I'll tell you a funny story about that
morning if if I could.
>> Um the morning actually no you know what
I'll save it for tomorrow.
>> All right great.
>> Yeah [laughter] it's more appropriate
for tomorrow
>> please note just just so we don't forget
the that story it's
just want to make sure the OCD in me
>> um you transferred from being an analyst
to an operations guy and for you to do
the transfer. So we spoke about what an
anal an analyst does right what's what's
what what does operation do
>> right in operations it's very simple
it's to recruit spies to steal those
secrets and then you implement
operations there was a CIA psychiatrist
that I worked with a couple of times on
a couple very sensitive operations
because sometimes you're recruiting
somebody who might be crazy or almost
crazy and you need to make sure that you
can get the information from them
>> before they go crazy.
So she paid me a great compliment one
time. She told my promotion panel, "John
Kuryaku will think of 30 different ideas
for an operation. 28 of them are crazy,
but two of them are really good." And
everybody laughed. That was actually a
very big compliment because you have to
come up with these ideas that nobody's
ever thought of. I'm not going to
recruit Saddam Hussein to tell me what
his plans are. So, I need to recruit
somebody who has access to Saddam. How
do I get to somebody with access to
Saddam when he's completely surrounded
by his own people who never leave the
country? Well, you come up with an idea
where you start with the Kurds or maybe
there's some Shia guy from Basra or some
Jordanian general or and you work your
way into that circle. That's what
operations is all about.
>> So, how would you typically work your
way into that circle? Like if if you
recruit someone who's on the in the
third circle, how would you be able to
get into his closest circle?
>> It's all about what is called targeting.
So, you need to figure out before you
say anything at all, you need to figure
out who has the access that you're
looking for. And then once you identify
the per the hard part is identifying the person.
person.
>> The easy part is actually making the
recruitment. You have to look for
something called a vulnerability. Now, a
vulnerability may be obvious. Maybe
you're a gambler and you're in debt. I
can pay your debts
>> if you give me what I'm looking for.
Maybe you're not a gambler.
Maybe you don't drink. You don't do
drugs. You don't gamble. You don't do
anything. You're just a good man. Well,
maybe that's the vulnerability. Maybe
you love your family so much that you
want the best for your children and you
want your children to go to
Harvard, Stanford, University of Texas.
I can take care of that for you and it
won't cost you anything if you give me
what I want. Um, in training.
>> So, so training. So, you before you
moved to be being an op guy, you went to
the farm, >> right?
>> right?
>> Which is where the training happened, right?
right?
>> That's right. So what happens in the in
the farm and what kind of training do
you usually get there?
>> Oh, the easier question is what kind of
training don't you get?
>> Uh so the analytic training was was
easy. They just teach you the CIA
writing style. It takes six weeks and
then you go back to headquarters and
live happily ever after.
>> In operations, you're in training
constantly. So it started off with what
we called crash and bang. They teach you
how to crash cars through roadblocks
100 kilometers an hour backwards while
you're shooting out the window at
another car. Movie stuff.
>> Movie stuff. Legitimately.
>> Um, and if you have car sickness, you're
going to have a seriously hard time.
People throwing up all the time. Uh,
then you go to the actual operations
training where they teach you how to
recruit spies to steal secrets. And you
start in a mock uh diplomatic cocktail
party, right? So all the instructors are
pretending to be diplomats from other
countries. And in mine, [snorts] I spoke
Arabic and I spoke Greek. So I went up
and I said, "Hi, how are you? I'm John
Kiryaku. I'm the new first secretary at
the American Embassy."
>> So you come and you pose as a person who
works in the embassy. >> Okay?
>> Okay?
>> Or in the military or in the commerce
department or in some company. It could
be anything. Anything at all. And this
guy says to me, um, um, Buenos Diaz.
>> Yeah, I don't speak Spanish.
And he says, Bahada de Kuba from the
Cuban embassy. And I said, okay, nice to
meet you. And I walked away because
clearly that wasn't my target. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So I went to another guy and he was a
Russian and we exchanged business cards. And
And
>> that's all a mock.
>> Yeah. All mock. All for pretend. And
then I I come upon this short guy and I
said, "Hi, John Kiryaku from the
American Embassy. How are you?" And he
says, "Um, I dinkro in Greek. I'm from
Cyprus." And I thought, "Okay, here's my
target that they created for me." [laughter]
[laughter]
I said, "What do you do for a living?"
He said, "I work at the port." Okay, I
don't I don't care about that. I don't
know anything about ports. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And I said, "Oh, that sounds so interesting."
interesting."
>> Which it didn't. I said, 'What do you do
at the port?' And he said, 'Oh, you
know, when the ships come in, I'm in
charge of the the lading and then when
they go out, I make sure all the
paperwork is right. Also not interesting
to me. And I said, that's fascinating.
It it it's so international things
constantly coming in and I'm just trying
to make make conversation. And he said,
yes, like for example, tomorrow we have
a shipment coming in full of hydrochloro thorioide.
thorioide.
I don't know what that is. And I said,
"Oh, that sounds so interesting.
Would you do me the honor of letting me
take you to lunch?" And I gave him my
business card, which is exactly what I
was supposed to do. So, we went to lunch
and I said, "So, tell me about this
hydrochloro floral."
>> So, the mock continues.
>> Oh, yeah. It continues for weeks. For
weeks. Okay. Six weeks, as a matter of fact.
fact.
>> Wow. Okay.
>> So, we're at lunch and he says, "Yeah, I
don't know what this stuff is." So, I
send a mock cable to headquarters and I
say, "I'm I'm here in the Republic of
Victoria and I met this criate and
here's his name and here's his age and
here's his height and eye color and hair
color. Please tell me if you have
anything in the files on him with his
name." He told me he's expecting a
shipment of hydrochloroioide.
I don't know what that is. So, they send
me back. They said yes in our files.
He's a nice guy. He works for the port
just like he said. Hydrochlorofluioide
is the precursor chemical to cocaine.
So now I'm interested.
>> You're interested. Yeah.
>> I would be writing for the analyst. So I
would say there's a shipment of hydrochlorazide
hydrochlorazide
coming in to the port of Victoria, which
is of course a madeup country, and uh
the ship is coming from North Korea.
Well, now the analysts are going to say,
"Oh my gosh, the North Koreans are
involved in cocaine production." >> Okay?
>> Okay?
>> And so they write that for the
president. That's the the system. Okay?
The way it works. But anyway, that
operational thing went six weeks and
then we did bomb training. We we learned
how to make bombs and then we learned
how to diffuse bombs. And then in the
final exam, you can build any bomb you
want. And uh the the final is it has to
explode and destroy whatever it is
you're trying to destroy. So, I built a
it's called an anfo bomb. It's ammonium
nitrate and I put it under a van. And
so, we all got in the bunker. We looked
through the slit that's just barely
above ground.
We pushed the plunger. Actually, it was
a button, not really a plunger.
>> And it blew up and they found the
transmission 300 meters away. >> Wow.
>> Wow.
>> I got an A. So, um,
then we went to because I was going to
Athens, I actually went out to Athens
and then they sent me back for another
six weeks for something called advanced
counterterrorist operations training. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And then advanced counterterrorist
driving, which is, you know, in the
desert in Nevada and over sand dunes
while you're shooting out the window
trying to drive. And
>> it was all very, very theatrical
>> and demanding as well. and demanding.
The pressure is ridiculous.
>> You're one of the few people who were
able to do the transition from being an
analyst to
>> It was exceedingly rare to move from
analysis to operations. But I'll tell
you how that happened. I got so bored in
analysis. It's Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, Iraq,
24 hours a day. For years, I said, I'm
going to go crazy because Bill Clinton
is not going to overthrow Saddam
Hussein. I got to do something
different. So, I saw a job listing and
it was looking for a counterterrorism
operations officer in Greece and it
said, "Successful candidate will have
either Greek or Arabic."
>> Tailored for you.
>> As it turned out, I was the only person
in the entire CIA who spoke both Greek
and Arabic.
>> But for you to work in the CIA, do you
have to be obviously you have to be born
in the US, a US citizen?
>> You have to be US citizen. But does your
mom and dad also have to be born in the
US or that doesn't matter?
>> No, it doesn't matter. They're going to
investigate you just like they
investigate everybody. My investigation
actually took very long. It was 18
months because not only were were many
of my relatives still in Greece and
Greek citizens, but one cousin of my
grandmother was a member of the Pulit
bureau of the Greek Communist Party,
which caused me no end of trouble. And I
never met the man. So, it took 18 months
to investigate him and they just decided
he was just some old man who loves
communism and so they gave me the job.
>> So, they'll investigate all of your
family and just see.
>> They sure do.
>> Okay. So, they just they need to clear
all all of your family before you become
someone who works in the CIA.
>> That's right.
>> Okay. So, um you you saw the the thing
that said they needed someone,
>> right? So I went down to talk to the
hiring officer who was a very senior
officer and I said, "Listen, I have no
operational experience whatsoever, but I
speak Greek and Arabic." And he said,
"What? Are you willing to be tested?"
And I said, "Yeah." I said, "I just
tested three weeks ago in Arabic, but
I'll test again if you want." It turned
out that his secretary was Greek. And
not only was she Greek, she was from the
same island and same village that my
grandparents were from. >> Roads.
>> Roads.
>> Roads. the village of Yalisos. So she
comes out of the office and she starts
speaking speaking to me in Greek. I
respond in Greek and she says, "Um, he
gets a thumbs up from me, Dave." And and
then this Dave says, "Well, your Arabic
scores are excellent." He said, "It's
going to take some convincing for up the
chain of command, but it's a lot easier
and a lot cheaper to take a linguist and
teach him operations than it is to take
an operations officer and teach him to
speak Greek and Arabic."
>> Fair enough.
>> So, it took, I'm going to say, a couple
of months, but he convinced people up
the chain that I was the guy. And so, I
got the job and I went to Athens as a
counterterrorism operations officer. So,
so back to the farm, you were you had
this u Gibbro. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> The criate guy.
>> That's right.
>> Um to um to to convince over the period
of 6 weeks. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> So you you you you met you sent them a
cable. They said, "Oh, this is um raw
material for cocaine." >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> So for you to pass, you need to you need
to recruit him.
>> Yes. So I recruited him.
>> You recruited him? How would you
typically recruit someone? Because we're
going to speak about this a lot. And you
you recruited in in Greece five people
over a period of 18 months.
>> I had success and you had that comp in
comparison to everyone else uh was was
was more than just good. It was really
good. It was outstanding if I may say
>> it was.
>> So you had a special thing for
recruiting people. So now I would like
to learn from you. How would you
typically go about in terms of
recruiting? Maybe take me to a real case
that has happened.
>> Sure. Well, even before you you meet the
person that you want to recruit, there
have to be some things about you that
have to be consistent.
You have to really love people, right? I
would so much rather go to a party where
I know nobody than to sit at home and
watch a movie.
>> Oh, so you are a social person.
>> Very much so. And you have to be to be
successful. There are no introverts in
CIA operations. You have to be an extrovert.
extrovert.
And so, um,
>> because I just love doing things like
that, I would go out I I'm not
exaggerating when I tell you I would go
out five or six nights a week overseas
to um parties, dinners, receptions,
events. Hi, how are you? Here's my card.
Let's get to know each other.
>> So, when you were in in in Greece, um
you you recruited someone from the
Middle East.
>> Yeah. See, in Greece, our targets were
the Abu Nidal Organization. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> The Libyans, the Iraqis,
uh the Popular Front for the Liberation
of Palestine and PFLP, General Command,
and the Democratic Front for the
Liberation of Palestine.
>> Do you have any information about the
Abu Nidal operations because that's very
popular here in the Middle East? Just to
know more about Abu Nidal and his type
of operations that he did.
>> Yeah, the reason the reason that Abu
Nidal was in the end unsuccessful is
because his organization was based on
his personality alone.
and his personality was such that he was
very conspiratorial.
And so
what we were able to do was to plant a
seed in his ear that his people were
talking to the CIA. So listen, if you're
a member of Abonal organization, your
name is Muhammad. I can't recruit you.
You hate me. You want to kill me.
>> Yeah. So
I know that there's this other guy
Abdullah in Abu Nidal and I say Abdullah
I'm from the CIA. Muhammad told me to
talk to you. Well, he's going to kill
you. And then I tell Rashid, I said,
"Hey, did you hear Abdullah killed
Muhammad, which is crazy because
Abdullah is one of our sources and and
Muhammad was one of the true believers
of Abu Nidal and then Rashid kills
Abdullah and next thing you know >> chaos.
>> chaos.
>> They've all killed each other and the
only one left is Abu Nidal and then
Saddam kills him."
>> So that's what happened with Abdullah.
>> You know, I think in the end they said
he had a heart attack. He didn't have
any heart attack,
>> but there was chaos around the
>> Oh, yeah.
>> from the CIA.
>> Oh, yeah. We We created that chaos
because we knew he was crazy in the
first place and that if we just planted
a seed, he would do the rest himself.
Very interesting.
See, this is what you do. If you can't
get to that innermost circle, you get
others to do your dirty work.
And there's another component to this,
too. Mhm. It's what motivates people to
work with the CIA. 95% of the time it's
money. The CIA has literally an
unlimited supply of money. If you are
wellplaced, we can make you very rich.
>> What do you mean by very rich? Well, we
gave out 25 million in cash for
Khalichek Muhammad, 10 million in cash
for Abu Zuba, 50 million for Nicholas
Maduro. If you have the access and you
help us and we'll give it to you any way
you want it. Cash, gold, diamonds, land,
Bitcoin, name it, we'll pay it on the
first day.
>> And they usually do pay that.
>> Oh, they always pay it. Otherwise, what
kind of reputation would the
organization have if they made a promise
and didn't fulfill it?
>> They gave out a lot of money in Iraq.
>> A lot of money.
>> So, he never had an heart attack cuz
that's the that's the theory.
>> I I never believed he had a heart
attack. No, I believed he was snuffed
out because he wasn't any use to the
Iraqis anymore. He was just a pain
yelling about this and that. And, you
know, Saddam was weird about control and
this was somebody he couldn't control.
So when you were in in Greece, there was
I stopped you when you said there was an
Abunadala organization. There was
another one the November 17th is it as well?
well?
>> Well, and then the Greek groups that we
were going against were 17 November and
uh Popular Revolutionary Struggle, Ella,
two domestic Greek groups. That's where
I spent almost all of my time working
against the uh the Greeks.
>> And they were all anti-Americans. This
is why you were
>> Oh, yeah. They murdered well they
murdered 27 people including the CIA
station chief, two American defense
attaches, the minister of
communications, the minister of finance,
uh the Turkish ambassador, the deputy
ambassador, uh the British defense
attache. They were very very murderous.
And so we knew that they were constantly
casing the American embassy. They were
constantly planning attacks on American
embassy personnel. And so the job was to
to capture them.
>> But you're an analyst guy. And then you
went we moved to ops. Were you not shook
by the circumstances? You were you were
a guy who were just behind the office in Langley.
Langley.
>> And then
>> I learned a lot
>> when you moved to Greece and
>> it's a different life.
>> You being an American. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> You would by default be targeted and you
were targeted. Yeah, I was.
>> But were you not like were you not
scared um to be in that uh environment?
>> That's a good question. Athens was
literally the only place where I was
scared. And it was it was because it was
for a couple of reasons. First of all,
my family was there and I had two young
sons at the time. And um and my wife was
Greek American and she just loved being
there. She just could not see it as a
dangerous place, which it very much was.
In fact, we spent more money on security
in Athens then than we spent in Beirut.
That's how dangerous it was. >> So,
>> So,
>> so that was one of the reasons why I was
scared. The other reason was I knew that
they were actively targeting me.
>> I drove a fully armored car. It was a
level four armored BMW 540. I carried a
9mm on my waist and a 38 revolver on my
ankle. And just in case things really
went bad, I kept a knife in my back pocket.
pocket.
>> And you had two security guards. And I
had two security guards on the house all
the time. Yeah. In the meantime, I'm out
there provoking them, you know, actively
trying to recruit them. And so it was it
was a hot war between us.
>> There was a story that you mentioned in
your book where where there was a Middle
Eastern intelligence guy that you went
to his house.
>> That story.
>> I am so proud of that operation and I
wish that it had been my idea. It was
not my idea.
I had a mentor at the CIA. He was an old
man. He was a retiree. His name was Gus
Avricatus. He became famous and they
even made a movie about him, Charlie
Wilson's War, in which he's played by
Philip Seymour Hoffman. So, I told Gust,
I said, "Listen,
this this enemy country, the CIA won't
allow me to say what country it is, but
it's kind of obvious. this enemy
country. They're getting a new
intelligence service uh representative
and I want to bump into him, but this is
not a guy who's going to be at a
diplomatic cocktail party.
>> How do I get to him? So Gus gave me this
idea. I I was much younger at the time.
I was 35 years old. My hair was darker.
My my I grew a beard and it was dark.
Now I'm all gray. But I put some books
in a book bag. I went to his house. I
saw his car was on the street. And with
my book bag, I broke the side view
mirror off of his car. So I picked it
up. I went to the next door neighbor
just to provide cover for myself. And I
said to the woman, "Is this your car?"
She said, "No, it's the man next door.
He doesn't speak Greek." So I went to
his house. I knocked on the door and I saidto,
"I'm so sorry, sir, but the lady next
door told me that this is your car." And
I broke the I said, "I'm so clumsy." He
says, "Wait, wait a minute. Wait a
minute. I don't speak I don't speak
Greek." I said, "Oh, you speak English?"
"I speak English." I said, "I'm so
sorry. I I I was clumsy and I wasn't
paying attention to where I was going
and and I broke the mirror off your car
and the lady next door told me that it
was your car and I want to say I'm sorry
and I want to pay for it. He's like,
"Oh, you're so clumsy. What's wrong with
you? You could you couldn't see how
close you were." I said, "I I'm so
sorry. I was just not paying attention.
It's all my fault. I want to pay for
it." In the meantime,
well, I said to him, I said, "Uh, I
said, "Your English, you have an accent.
can you tell me where you're from? And
he told me from this Middle East
country. And I said, I'm from the United
States. I said, oh, I wish our countries
could be friends again. Maybe someday.
And he's just like,
and I see his little daughter. She
looked to be about four years old. She's
playing on the floor of the living room.
And I I said to him, "May I have a glass
of water?" Knowing that culturally he
had to give it to me.
>> Yeah. and he says, "Wait right here."
So, uh, I walked into the house and I
said to his daughter, I got down on my
knee and I said, "Uh, uh,"
and she tells me her name and I said,
"How old are you?" And she says, "She's
four." And he comes in, he's holding the
water and he says, "What exactly do you
want from me?"
>> He knows that, you know.
>> Oh, 100%. He's a professional. He's not
an idiot. So I said, 'L
I'm from the CIA in Washington. I know
exactly who you are and what you're
doing here. You have one chance to be on
the side of the good guys. And I took
out my business card and I said, "This
is my real name. The phone rings on my
desk at the American embassy. You have
until 10:00 tomorrow morning to call me.
You can be on the side of the good guys
or you can go down with your leader."
and I put it down on it the table and he
said to me, "I admire your courage in
approaching me. Very inventive."
He said, "But I hate that you did it in
my own home. You can leave now." So I
said, "10 tomorrow morning." And I
walked out. The next morning,
everybody's gathered around my desk
>> waiting for the phone call.
>> Waiting everybody. [laughter]
And then the phone rings.
>> Does it?
>> Uhhuh. And he said, "What do you want
from me?" And I said, "Meet me in the
Hilton Hotel coffee shop in two hours
and don't bring a weapon."
So we had we our security people were
literally at every table. >> Wow.
>> Wow.
>> Of the Hilton coffee shop. Everybody's
armed. I have a bulletproof vest on
under my suit. And he comes and I tell
him, "Have a seat." And he said, "So,
how does this play out?" And I said,
"I want access to your code room and I
want all your weapons."
And he said, "Do you know how hard that
is?" And I said, "Yes, I also know how
important you are and I know that of
anybody in the embassy besides the
ambassador, you have the access." And he
said, "What do I get in return?" I said,
"Well, number one, you get to live.
Number two, I can make you rich beyond
your wildest dreams.
So, what is it? What do you want? And we
negotiated a deal. And we made a plan.
We took the codes. The weapons were
buried in a bunker outside the embassy
underground. We went in the middle of
the night, six guys with shovels. We
took all the weapons
and then he disappeared.
Is there a witness protection program in
gender? Is that is that a is that a really
really
>> Yes. The last time I heard about him, it
was it was several years after I left
the uh left the CIA and I ran into a
former colleague and I said, "How's
Steve?" Steve was what we just called
him. We didn't use his Arabic name. We
just made up a name. I said, "How's
Steve?" He said, "Believe it or not,
Steve owns seven restaurants."
>> Oh, good for Steve.
>> And I said, "Really?" He said, "We set
him up with one restaurant. He just had
a knack for it and now he has seven
restaurants. He's rich. I said, "Good
for him." So, he made a life for
himself. He said, "Yeah, his kids are in
college. Everything's good." I said,
"Great. That's what it's all about."
>> So, the witness protection thing is is
is a real thing.
>> Oh, it's a real thing.
>> And then he just gets vanishes. And
>> you you get American citizenship.
>> Your family gets American citizenship.
Uh you get the seed money to start
whatever it is you want. I mean, you've
provided us with a great service. And
whatever we negotiated, I'm going to
give him a hundred,000. I'm going to
give him a million or five million or
whatever it's going to be. That's what
he used to get started in life.
>> But those people and that's where the
real talk gets gets in is those people
are are informants against their country
at the end of the day. They've committed espionage
espionage
>> or treason some treason, right? >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> So in that sense, how are they viewed in
the CIA? Are those are they're viewed as people?
people?
>> Yeah, that's a good question. So,
you would think that they would be held
at arms length because they they're traitors.
traitors. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But there is such an overwhelming
sense in the CIA that we are the good
guys that we consider them to be the
good guys, too. I'll give you another example.
example.
When I was in Greece,
I got a cable.
I have to be careful how I say this. I
okay in in a in a Middle Eastern country
there was a person who had been the head
of that country's intelligence service
and he decided to flip and work for us
and somehow
the leader of that country learned that
he was working for us. He escaped
All three of his sons were executed. He
only had three sons.
>> They were all executed.
He was relocated to the United States,
but he was destroyed.
>> Yeah, it must be >> destroyed.
>> destroyed.
I got a cable in Washington saying that
his brother had just arrived in
Washington. I'm sorry, had just arrived
in Athens. He had been hiding on a
Libyan oil tanker and he jumped over the
side when it came into the port in Beir
Pereas, Greece. And they said, "He's not
a source of ours, but we we owe it to
his brother to take care of him. So meet
him. Here's the number the brother had
given to us, and give him $5,000."
So I called him. I told him, "I'm a
friend of your brother and let's meet at
this cafe." So, we met at the cafe and I
said, "Your brother is a hero and it's
sickening what happened to to his sons.
We're very sorry, but he told us that
you were on this oil tanker. I wanted to
give you this to just tide you over. Get
yourself a hotel or something." I ended
up meeting with him three times. And
again, because his brother had done this
great service to the CIA, we decided
we're just going to give him a green
card and let him relocate to the United
States. Okay. I resigned in 2004,
effective in early 2005. In 2007,
I happened to be in Dulles airport. I
don't work for the CIA anymore. I'm
going on a business trip and I hear this
voice say, "John." And I looked and I
said, Muhammad.
I said, "You're in Washington."
And he says, "Yeah, I got a job at the
airport. I'm a baggage handler." And I
said, "You speak English?" [laughter]
And he said, "Yeah, I'm an American
now." I said, "Mashallah, I can't
believe it." He said, "Yeah, I got the
green card. You helped me out." And it
was just so good to see him. I said,
"How's your brother?" And he said, "Uh,
my brother and I don't talk anymore. We
had a falling out and but everybody's
good. Everybody's healthy. I was so
happy to see him. I never saw him again,
but I was glad that he landed on his feet.
feet.
>> Are those moments and you've had many of
those kind of moments. Are those moments
special to you?
>> They really are. I mentioned to you
before we started recording that that in
a different life, I would be friends
easily with 90% of the people that I had
recruited. Easily. You know, there's
this conventional wisdom that if you're
if you're recruited by the CIA, it's
because you have some kind of flaw.
There's some flaw in your personality or
in your mind, something wrong. Why would
you do this?
>> These are usually really great people.
They just find themselves in some situation.
situation.
Oh, which was something that I was going
to tell you. 95% of them do it for the money.
money.
>> Okay. And I can understand that. You
know, life is expensive.
The other 5% though that were
fascinating um they'll do it for
revenge. They hate their government.
Maybe they've it's maybe it's as simple
as they've been passed over for promotion.
promotion.
Maybe it's that they hate their
government's leader or they hate a
policy that the government has
implemented. But some of them do it for
the revenge. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Others do it because they love love love
the United States. They've seen these
movies and it's incredible and Top Gun
and you know whatever and they just they
want to be as close to being an American
as possible.
>> So with these movies and media,
>> do the CIA work with the with Hollywood
and work with with news agencies?
>> Oh yes. Yes. And they've finally come
clean about that in the last 10 years.
>> So it's propaganda.
>> Absolutely. Yes. >> And
>> And >> 100%.
>> 100%.
In fact, there's an office in the CIA's
Office of Public Affairs whose job it is
just to work with Hollywood Studios,
nothing else. That's why every movie
that comes out about the CIA is pro-CIA.
Every one of them. That they do that on
purpose. And and the rest of the 95% is
some people just do it for the
excitement. They see these James Bond
movies or, you know, John Wick or
whatever the other ones are and they
think, "Oh my god, that's so exciting. I
want to do that." And so they just volunteer.
volunteer.
>> Interesting. So, but the company thing
is not real, is it? The company one they
call the CIA.
>> That one's especially bad. Listen,
there's one that's worse. It It was on
the CBS network in the United States and
it was called um Covert Affairs. stupid
name for a stupid show. I watched one episode.
episode.
>> So, this analyst just walks into the
Oval Office. First of all, you would be
arrested if you did that. >> Okay?
>> Okay?
>> You don't even have access to the Oval
Office. And you just walk in like you
own the building and she says, "Madame
President," the president, of course, is
a black woman. >> Okay?
>> Okay?
>> She says, "Madame President, I need to
take a hit out on someone." It's like,
"What? First of all, you're under arrest
for for conspiracy to commit murder. You
can't just go walk like you own the
White House. You walk into the
president's office. I watched one
episode on I said I'll never watch it
again. And then it was cancelled. But
I've been an adviser on oh four or five
Hollywood movies and several different
series where they'll send me the script
six months in advance and I go through
the script line by line and I say,
"Nope, that would never happen." Yes,
good point. There was one uh I was
consulting on a on a TV series called uh
True Lies based on the Arnold
Schwarzenegger movie and um they told me
read the script carefully and tell us if
all of it is true to life if it would
really happen. Well, in the very opening
scene there's this clandestine operation
in London and I said no no no this would
never ever happen in London. we are so
close to the British that we would have
to inform the British in advance that we
were going to do this operation. Can't
do it. And I said, "You have to move it
to another country."
>> And so when it came out six months
later, I was so excited to watch it. So
I'm watching it. And then the whole
scene was in Brussels. And I said, "They
listen to me." [laughter] >> Great.
>> Great.
>> Another one was they're in a mosque and
everybody's praying and they all have
shoes on. And I said, "No, no, no. You
can't have everybody praying with their
shoes on. Have none of you ever been in
a mosque? Like, there's not one Muslim
in all of Hollywood to tell them you
take your shoes off before you walk into
the mosque.
>> Do you think Do you think that
represents the disconnect between the
American American culture and the Muslim culture?
culture?
>> 100%. People just don't know. I'll tell
you what they do know now is they know
Dubai and they think Dubai is the Middle
East. And it's like, no, Dubai is New
York with better weather. That's it.
That's not the Middle East. You got to
actually go to the Middle East. You
know, this is why this is why I wanted
to live and work in the Middle East.
I don't know if you've heard me tell
this story, but when I was 9 years old,
I told my parents that I wanted to be a
spy when I grew up.
>> No, I didn't.
>> And they thought that was cute. I was a
little kid. They bought me
walkie-talkies. My seven-year-old
brother and I used to play on the
walkie-talkies. And disappearing ink. I
could write messages and it would
disappear and then you put it underwater
and the message reappears. Very cool.
>> So when I was 16,
my father and I were driving down the I
still remember we were driving down Old
Plank Road past Frasier's Pond and I
said, "Dad, I decided that I want to be
a spy in the Middle East." And he said,
"Oh my goodness, still with this spy
business. You can't be like a dentist or
a doctor or something.
>> You have to be a spy." I said, "I'm
serious. I want to be a spy, but I want
to live in the Middle East." And he
said, "Why? we've never been to the
Middle East. I said, "Dad, I love the
culture and the history and the the
poetry and I just I love everything
about it." He was
he was upset because he was worried.
>> He wasn't really sure what that meant at
the end of the day. And so I only
applied to George Washington University
for two reasons. One, because it was two
blocks from the White House, right in
the center of the action. And two,
because it was one of only three
universities in all of the United States
that offered a Middle Eastern studies
degree. So I majored in Middle Eastern
studies. My focus was Islam.
And um then I stayed for a master's
degree in legislative affairs thinking
I'll go to Capitol Hill. I'll go to the
State Department. And then I was
recruited into the CIA. And I became a
spy in the Middle East just like I said
I wanted.
>> By Dr. What's his name? Dr.
>> Dr. Post. Gerald Post. That's a really
nice story.
>> He's a good man. A good man.
>> Advice everyone listening to this is to
read your book. It's it's a fascinating
story honestly and um just explains a
lot of details that we might not have
time to explain today.
>> Um but we're trying to build a layer on
top of that uh today which is is equally
important. And so we let's go back to to
Greece and and and recruitment for us to
finish with the recruitment question is
um once you recruit someone um it takes
you a lot of time to recruit him. You
the the story you told us is not the typ
it's not a typical story.
>> It's not at all a typical story.
>> Usually you'll work with someone they
call it developing, right?
>> Yes. There's a there's something called
the asset acquisition cycle. Okay.
>> This is the cycle whereby you make a
recruitment. Spot, assess, develop, recruit.
recruit.
>> So, I spot you somewhere and I say, "He
might be interesting to talk to and I
assess you." I say, "Hi, how are you?"
"Oh, your name is Fisel. What do you do
for a living?" "Oh, you're a you're a
general in the Ministry of Defense."
"Okay, now I'm interested." Then I
develop you. That's the long period
where I take you to lunch, I take you to
dinner, I introduce you to my wife, you
introduce me to your wife, we become
friends, we go on vacation together, we
become best friends.
>> And then I say, "Yeah, fel. Um,
you know that new Russian tank that just
came out? I would really appreciate it
if you could give me the plans to that
tank. I I know that you guys are buying
this tank. I would really love to see a
copy of the plans and you do that for me
because we're best friends. And then in
the end I say, "Listen, Fisel, there's
something I haven't really been honest
with you about." And I I'm not really in
the State Department. I'm actually a CIA
officer. I hope you're okay with that.
>> Breaking cover.
>> Breaking cover. That's what it's called.
And you say, because we're best friends,
you say, "Yeah, I kind of suspected
something was up when you asked me for
the plans to the Russian tank." And I
say, "Yeah, I mean, you're a good guy.
I'm a good guy. We're friends. Um, but
listen, you've been really good to me.
And um,
and I know that, you know, you love your
family so much. You don't make as much
money as, you know, some other people
might. So,
if you would agree to be a consultant
for me, the word consultant often
softens the blow. if I could hire you as
a consultant, I can give you $10,000,
$20,000 a month. And it's easy. We meet
once a month for an hour or two hours in
a hotel someplace. And uh I give it to
you in cash and um you just I'll ask you
questions and you answer my questions.
That's it.
>> They always say yes.
>> Always say yes.
>> Always. You never make a pitch unless
you're certain they're going to say yes.
So that's a lot of time after developing
and then
>> a lot of time and it's usually a year
sometimes two years it takes.
>> Would they negotiate with you and just
say on top of the the money I'd like to
re relocate myself to the US when I'm done.
done.
>> A lot of times they say that and and I
say of course and that's a conversation
we can have at some point in the future.
No problem. Because once you move to the
United States, you're no good to me. You
don't have access to the information
anymore. So, I need for you to stay in
place as long as you can. It's not
uncommon to relocate people to the
United States.
>> Which country would you think is the
toughest to recruit? Which which people
do you think were the toughest? Because
you've dealt with a lot of people.
>> Was there a specific nationality that
you think they were the toughest or they
were the longest for me to recruit?
>> A lot of them are tough. In my own
personal experience, the Iraqis were the
toughest because they were so afraid of
their own government. They just didn't
trust that I was actually an American.
They were afraid that I was an Iraqi
putting on an American accent to trap
them. And so, cuz they would do
something like that.
>> Yeah. And then what? If they say yes and
I'm an Iraqi, they're going to be
executed. If they say no, the
government's going to say, "Why did the
CIA approach you?" Because you're weak,
so they're going to get executed anyway.
Then if they say yes and they get
caught, they're going to get executed.
So there's no there's no upside.
>> Yeah. No upside.
>> Mhm. So you finished with Greece and
then you moved back to the US and you
stayed there for a bit.
>> Mhm. And then September 11th happened, >> right?
>> right?
>> Um, so what happened? Where were you in
September 11th?
>> I was at the at the uh CIA's
headquarters. Um, I had a meeting at the
White House that morning. Um, Kofheer
Black, who was the director of CIA
counterterrorism operations, and I had a
meeting with Condisa Rice that morning.
She was the national security adviser on
a very what what in historical
retrospect was a very stupid reason.
There's a there's a minor
almost unknown government office in
Washington called the um government
printing office. Okay.
>> It's its own little tiny agency and what
it does is it prints all of the
government reports. okay,
>> for the whole American government. And
[snorts] they were going to print a book
of declassified State Department cables
and it was called Foreign Relations of
the United States, Greece, Turkey, Cyprus,
Cyprus,
1949 to 1967.
Nobody is going to read that book. But
But
in the thousand pages,
there were three names
of people who had been CIA informants
who were still alive.
And there's a law in the United States
that if the US government exposes your
name, we have to offer you American citizenship.
citizenship.
>> These people are like a hundred years
old. They were recruited in in the in
the 50s.
So, we thought it would be easier and
faster if we asked Condisa Rice to pause
the publication of the book just so we
could pull the pages out. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So, at 8:50 that morning, the driver
called me to say he was at the the east
entrance to the building to take us to
the White House. I walked over to
Kofheer Black's office to tell him the
car was ready. And
these were the days before you could
watch TV on a computer. So Kofheer's
secretary had a small TV on her desk and
it was on the news. It had the news
playing. And I looked at the desk and I
said I said, "What happened to the World
Trade Center?" And she said, "A plane
flew into it." And I said, because I'm
stupid sometimes,
>> I said, "You know what? That happened
once before in 1931. A plane flew into
the Empire State Building, but it was
very foggy and rainy, heavy rain that
day. It's so clear today. How can you
not see that you're flying into the
World Trade Center? And just as I said
it, the second plane hit the North Tower.
Tower.
And she turned to me and she said, "Did
you see that or did I imagine it?" I ran
back to my office and I said, "Guys, two
planes just hit both towers of the World
Trade Center. I think we're under attack.
attack.
Everybody ran back up to the front to
Kofheer's office." Now, we had we had
TVs hanging from the the ceiling. By
then, they were all on, you know, CNN,
MSNBC, BBC, Kal, Russia Today,
everything, you know, from around the
world, the big stations. And they were
all showing the same thing.
By then like 150 people had gathered. It
was a very very large office. 150 people
had gathered. And somebody behind me
shouted, "Will somebody please lead
and Kofheer, it was like a slap in his
face. Yes." He says, "You go to the
director's office and tell him this. You
go to security. You go to operations."
And we just stood there. We watched the
World Trade Center burn. And then a
third plane hit the Pentagon and
somebody quietly said, "There's still a
plane in the air. We should probably
assume that it's headed here."
And just then a CIA police officer came
in. The CIA has its own police force
called the Special Protective Office.
And um he came in and he said,
"Everybody evacuate."
Nobody moved.
>> So that third plane hit the Pentagon.
And then the the policeman came back in
and he said, "If you don't evacuate,
you'll be arrested."
We were like, "Now, what do we do?"
Kofheer said, "Everybody go. Just go."
>> I got in my car. It took me two hours to
just get out of my parking space. This
was unprecedented. Nothing like this had
ever happened before in American history.
history.
So you have tens of thousands of people
all trying to evacuate it at the same
time through just two exits. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Two hours to get out of my parking
space. I only live 10 kilometers from
the CIA's headquarters. I got halfway
and I abandoned my car. I just pulled
over to the side of the road, turned it
off, and just started walking because I
couldn't move.
>> Yeah. It was just stopped. I got to the
Teddy Roosevelt bridge that connects
Arlington, Virginia with Washington DC
and I saw the deputy national security
adviser and he had no shoes.
And I remember thinking, my god, this is
a catastrophe.
>> Why did he have no shoes?
>> He ran away so fast from the White House
that he left his shoes.
>> Oh wow.
>> And I thought this this is how bad this
is. He's supposed to be at the White
House protecting us and he ran away with
no shoes.
So, I went back to my apartment. My
girlfriend, who later became my wife,
she was also a senior CIA officer, um
she she called me and she said, "I'll
meet you at your place." So, we climbed
to the roof of the building and we
watched the Pentagon burn for a couple
of hours and I said, "This is
ridiculous. we should give blood or
something. So, we went downstairs. We
found a Red Cross blood mobile, the big
bus where they take your blood. But the
line was so long, they told us it would
be 24 hours before we could give blood.
And I said, "I'm going back to the
office. This is ridiculous." So, I
walked back to my car on the highway,
got in, I drove across the grass, went
back to CIA, and I didn't leave for the
next four days. when I got tired, I just
went underneath my desk and I slept for
an hour, two hours and um just got up
and started working again. Everybody did that.
that.
>> Before we get to January 2002 is when
you flew to Pakistan. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> You mentioned call for black. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> And flashback before before what has
happened in a few months, right?
>> You had people visiting from the Middle
East, an intelligence uh agency, an ally
>> coming in to get some training.
>> Yes. And then you tried to get Co for
Black to come and say hello to them.
>> I actually didn't. Um that was July the
6th, 2001. I remember the date clearly
because it became so important in my own
personal story. You're right. That
morning we had a delegation of um Arab
intelligence officers.
>> So you're not allowed to say which
>> they won't they won't let me say which one.
one. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> It's one that you know quite well. And um
um
this was a completely normal thing. We
would do it literally every day where we
would have delegations of foreign
intelligence services. We come, we give
them a day full of briefings and then we
take them to meet the director of the
CIA and they take a picture together
shaking hands. Then we exchange gifts
and that night we take them to a very
expensive restaurant and the next day we
do it all over again with somebody else.
That day we had these Arabs, close
friends, and I scheduled the day of
briefings, including at 10 o'clock that
morning, a briefing on al-Qaeda.
But I scheduled it with a very young
junior analyst, 25 years old, young kid.
Instead of the kid coming, Kofheer Black
came in with the director of operations
from the Osama bin Laden group called
Alex Station. And I was so surprised. I
I stood up and I said, "Oh," I said,
"Gentlemen, gentlemen, this is this is
Kofheer Black. He's the director of
counterterrorism for the CIA." And I
introduced them. They were all majors
and colonels in their service. And
Kofheer sat down and he was very, very
serious. He said, "Something terrible is
going to happen. We don't know where and
we don't know when, but we know it's
going to be an attack on a huge scale.
We're hearing
chatter from the al-Qaeda camps.
[snorts] We're hearing camp commanders
speaking to their students and crying on
the phone and saying, "I'll see you in paradise."
paradise."
We're hearing code words for a massive
attack. The honey salesman is coming
with vast quantities of honey. there's
going to be a great football match.
There's going to be a huge wedding. He
said, "We know what this means. We just
don't know when and where." And then he
said these words that still stick with
me. He said, "I'm begging you if you
have any sources inside Akaida.
Please help us."
And they just sat there and looked at
him. And then he stood up and he shook
their hands and he walked out.
That afternoon at five o'clock we
finished the briefings. So they went
back to the hotel. I'm going to pick
them up two, three hours later for
dinner. But I went back to Kofer's
office to thank him. And I said, "Kofer,
I wanted to thank you for spending the
time speaking to those guys, but I have
to ask you." I said, "I don't work on al-Qaeda.
al-Qaeda.
Were you saying that just for them, like
to be dramatic,
>> or were you serious?" And he said, "Oh,
I'm deadly serious. Something terrible
is going to happen." And then it did.
>> So you need So the CIA had like knew
something's going to happen. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> There are so many conspiracies floating
out there, John. As as you know, um some
say it's an inside job. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Some say the CIA knew they had all of
these indicators that Osama bin Laden
had his people come to the US and
>> that is true.
>> He people from the had came to the US
and started doing training. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> Uh on flying um >> correct airplanes. So those were those
>> correct airplanes. So those were those indicators were there, huh?
indicators were there, huh? >> Yeah. Let me start by saying it was not
>> Yeah. Let me start by saying it was not an inside job. It was not the Bush
an inside job. It was not the Bush family. It was not the also family. It
family. It was not the also family. It was not the space aliens or the lizard
was not the space aliens or the lizard people or the Jews. It was al-Qaeda.
people or the Jews. It was al-Qaeda. Number one,
Number one, >> were they capable of that?
>> were they capable of that? >> Absolutely. Yes.
>> Absolutely. Yes. >> Okay. Number two,
>> Okay. Number two, the CIA was the guilty party here
the CIA was the guilty party here because the CIA did know that the
because the CIA did know that the hijackers were in the United States.
hijackers were in the United States. The CIA didn't tell the FBI. Now
The CIA didn't tell the FBI. Now remember, the CIA can only operate
remember, the CIA can only operate overseas. The FBI can only operate in
overseas. The FBI can only operate in the United States. The CIA is not
the United States. The CIA is not permitted to make a recruitment inside
permitted to make a recruitment inside the United States. The FBI has to make
the United States. The FBI has to make the recruitment. But the CIA and the FBI
the recruitment. But the CIA and the FBI hated each other so much that the CIA
hated each other so much that the CIA never told the FBI
never told the FBI that the hijackers were in the United
that the hijackers were in the United States. And the FBI never told the CIA
States. And the FBI never told the CIA that they had intelligence that the
that they had intelligence that the hijackers were going to use the
hijackers were going to use the airplanes as the weapons.
airplanes as the weapons. Do you understand what I mean?
Do you understand what I mean? >> Yeah, of course I understand what you
>> Yeah, of course I understand what you mean. So that information was already
mean. So that information was already there.
there. >> It was there. It's that it wasn't
>> It was there. It's that it wasn't shared.
shared. >> Wasn't connected. It wasn't shared.
>> Wasn't connected. It wasn't shared. >> Right. And in fact, it wasn't until 2009
>> Right. And in fact, it wasn't until 2009 that the CIA and the FBI had compatible
that the CIA and the FBI had compatible computer systems. Before that they just
computer systems. Before that they just had to manually share.
had to manually share. >> Exactly. But they hated each other. So
>> Exactly. But they hated each other. So they didn't even do that. In 2002 when I
they didn't even do that. In 2002 when I was in Pakistan just
was in Pakistan just >> pushing ahead for a minute. If I wanted
>> pushing ahead for a minute. If I wanted to write a cable, I wrote cables all day
to write a cable, I wrote cables all day every day. You have to inform
every day. You have to inform headquarters what you're doing. But if I
headquarters what you're doing. But if I had to write a cable, I would say to CIA
had to write a cable, I would say to CIA headquarters, to this office, that
headquarters, to this office, that office, and the other office, add CC to
office, and the other office, add CC to the White House, to the State
the White House, to the State Department, to the Defense Department. I
Department, to the Defense Department. I could not send a cable to the FBI. The
could not send a cable to the FBI. The system just couldn't handle it.
system just couldn't handle it. >> It would be like me saying CC to Fisel.
>> It would be like me saying CC to Fisel. You don't have a CIA computer. You can't
You don't have a CIA computer. You can't receive this cable. The FBI couldn't
receive this cable. The FBI couldn't receive the cable. And similarly, the
receive the cable. And similarly, the FBI could only send cables to other FBI
FBI could only send cables to other FBI offices. They couldn't send it to
offices. They couldn't send it to anybody else.
anybody else. >> So, there was a gap in communications.
>> So, there was a gap in communications. >> A terrible one. A deadly one. A deadly
>> A terrible one. A deadly one. A deadly one that resulted in in the murder of
one that resulted in in the murder of 3,000 Americans in one day.
3,000 Americans in one day. Mosad, were they involved?
Mosad, were they involved? [sighs]
[sighs] >> My own personal belief is yes, not
>> My own personal belief is yes, not necessarily in a direct way.
necessarily in a direct way. We've all heard the story of the dancing
We've all heard the story of the dancing Israelis. Yeah,
Israelis. Yeah, >> they were arrested and they were held
>> they were arrested and they were held for
for >> so for context for the listener.
>> so for context for the listener. >> Yeah. So there were there were there was
>> Yeah. So there were there were there was a vanload of Israeli citizens that were
a vanload of Israeli citizens that were arrested in New York City several days
arrested in New York City several days before 9/11. They were taking pictures
before 9/11. They were taking pictures of the World Trade Center, but they were
of the World Trade Center, but they were doing it in this odd way and and taking
doing it in this odd way and and taking pictures of other sensitive targets in
pictures of other sensitive targets in lower Manhattan.
lower Manhattan. It's not a crime to take pictures in the
It's not a crime to take pictures in the United States. And so they were
United States. And so they were eventually released. They were all
eventually released. They were all Israeli citizens and they kept saying,
Israeli citizens and they kept saying, "We're the good guys. We're the good
"We're the good guys. We're the good guys. We're Israelis. We're with you."
guys. We're Israelis. We're with you." They were released.
They were released. But then on 911, there was a larger
But then on 911, there was a larger group of Israeli citizens who were
group of Israeli citizens who were dancing in the streets, right? Because
dancing in the streets, right? Because we had been attacked. Now, they knew the
we had been attacked. Now, they knew the the reason why they were dancing is
the reason why they were dancing is because they knew how the United States
because they knew how the United States would react.
would react. >> So, they were celebrating the reaction.
>> So, they were celebrating the reaction. >> They were celebrating the reaction.
>> They were celebrating the reaction. We're going to go out and we're going to
We're going to go out and we're going to kill a million Muslims, which is exactly
kill a million Muslims, which is exactly what happened. the number may be two
what happened. the number may be two million if you count in Afghanistan.
million if you count in Afghanistan. I'm sorry, if you count in Iraq.
I'm sorry, if you count in Iraq. >> And so, um, they were arrested and they
>> And so, um, they were arrested and they were held for a 100 days. Now, many of
were held for a 100 days. Now, many of them had direct ties to the Israeli
them had direct ties to the Israeli government.
government. That has led me to believe that the
That has led me to believe that the Israelis I the Israelis were not
Israelis I the Israelis were not involved with al-Qaeda and the planning,
involved with al-Qaeda and the planning, but I believe the Israelis had
but I believe the Israelis had infiltrated al-Qaeda. They knew that the
infiltrated al-Qaeda. They knew that the attack was coming. They knew that would
attack was coming. They knew that would be good for Israel and so they allowed
be good for Israel and so they allowed the attack to happen. And every time we
the attack to happen. And every time we would ask the Israelis, "Do you know
would ask the Israelis, "Do you know anything about this group?" They would
anything about this group?" They would say, "No, we don't know anything." Of
say, "No, we don't know anything." Of course they knew. The Israelis are the
course they knew. The Israelis are the best intelligence service in the world.
best intelligence service in the world. >> Are they better than the CIA?
>> Are they better than the CIA? >> I think they are. Yeah, they're
>> I think they are. Yeah, they're certainly deadlier.
certainly deadlier. >> What do you mean?
>> What do you mean? You know, in the CIA, we have we have
You know, in the CIA, we have we have laws that are not always respected, but
laws that are not always respected, but we have pretty clear laws on um
we have pretty clear laws on um assassinations.
assassinations. Between 1975 and September 11th, 2001,
Between 1975 and September 11th, 2001, it was illegal for the CIA to
it was illegal for the CIA to assassinate anybody. And it's because
assassinate anybody. And it's because the CIA used to assassinate all kinds of
the CIA used to assassinate all kinds of people before 1975, killing world
people before 1975, killing world leaders, overthrowing governments. We
leaders, overthrowing governments. We had to stop that. And so 1975, President
had to stop that. And so 1975, President Gerald Ford signed Executive Order 12333
Gerald Ford signed Executive Order 12333 and it said, "You cannot kill people.
and it said, "You cannot kill people. Period."
Period." A couple of days after September 11th,
A couple of days after September 11th, President Bush amended 1233 to allow
President Bush amended 1233 to allow political assassinations if the if the
political assassinations if the if the target of the assassination poses what
target of the assassination poses what is called a clear and present danger to
is called a clear and present danger to the United States. Now, what's that
the United States. Now, what's that mean?
mean? >> That's subjective.
>> That's subjective. >> Very much so. And that has been amended
>> Very much so. And that has been amended to this day.
to this day. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> And so the CIA can kill anybody that it
>> And so the CIA can kill anybody that it wants to kill.
wants to kill. >> And they have a meeting every Tuesday on
>> And they have a meeting every Tuesday on that.
that. >> They have a meeting every Tuesday
>> They have a meeting every Tuesday morning at the White House and they come
morning at the White House and they come up with what's called the Tuesday
up with what's called the Tuesday morning kill list. And it's it's mostly
morning kill list. And it's it's mostly lawyers who are in this meeting plus CIA
lawyers who are in this meeting plus CIA operations people. And they come up with
operations people. And they come up with a list of people they want to kill that
a list of people they want to kill that week. The the teams go all around the
week. The the teams go all around the world. They kill the targets and then
world. They kill the targets and then they meet again the next Tuesday and
they meet again the next Tuesday and come up with the next list of people to
come up with the next list of people to kill. It's sick.
kill. It's sick. >> Very.
>> Very. >> So, Mossad is deadlier.
>> So, Mossad is deadlier. >> Oh, Msad, they'll kill you if you look
>> Oh, Msad, they'll kill you if you look at them. Funny.
at them. Funny. >> Sure.
>> Sure. And um you know what you mentioned when
And um you know what you mentioned when you had the Arab intelligence agents
you had the Arab intelligence agents that came and then after he said you
that came and then after he said you just mentioned how you said how the the
just mentioned how you said how the the protocol is at the end you'll shake
protocol is at the end you'll shake hands, you'll exchange gifts. I've heard
hands, you'll exchange gifts. I've heard stories about the gifts that uh the
stories about the gifts that uh the Mossad used to give the
Mossad used to give the >> Yeah, we we don't uh we don't accept
>> Yeah, we we don't uh we don't accept gifts anymore from the Mossad. Um
gifts anymore from the Mossad. Um because every gift they gave us had
because every gift they gave us had listening devices built in inside and we
listening devices built in inside and we x-ray everything and we we would say
x-ray everything and we we would say guys you have to stop trying to bug our
guys you have to stop trying to bug our conference rooms. We hate it and we
conference rooms. We hate it and we catch you every single time. So Mossad
catch you every single time. So Mossad for the last 40 years now, Mossad has
for the last 40 years now, Mossad has not been allowed inside CIA
not been allowed inside CIA headquarters. We meet with them outside
headquarters. We meet with them outside in a private office because we can't
in a private office because we can't trust them. They're constantly trying to
trust them. They're constantly trying to bug us, constantly trying to recruit our
bug us, constantly trying to recruit our people. In my very first briefing as a
people. In my very first briefing as a CIA officer, I'd been at the CIA for
CIA officer, I'd been at the CIA for about
about six weeks
six weeks and uh my boss said, "Listen, you're
and uh my boss said, "Listen, you're going to do your first briefing and it's
going to do your first briefing and it's going to be for Mossad and Shinbet." and
going to be for Mossad and Shinbet." and he told me, "We we can't trust them, so
he told me, "We we can't trust them, so they're not allowed in the building. We
they're not allowed in the building. We meet with them over here at this safe
meet with them over here at this safe house."
house." >> So Shinet is like the FBI.
>> So Shinet is like the FBI. >> Shinet is like the FBI. The Israeli is
>> Shinet is like the FBI. The Israeli is like the
like the >> Yes. And and they're both working in the
>> Yes. And and they're both working in the Israeli embassy in Washington.
Israeli embassy in Washington. >> So I was one of like
>> So I was one of like 8, 10, 12 analysts. It was a whole bunch
8, 10, 12 analysts. It was a whole bunch of analysts.
of analysts. And we're all sitting around this
And we're all sitting around this conference room table and the Mossad and
conference room table and the Mossad and Shinbet people are sitting across the
Shinbet people are sitting across the table from us. And so the senior analyst
table from us. And so the senior analyst starts and she says,"I the senior
starts and she says,"I the senior analyst and then the political analyst
analyst and then the political analyst and the economics analyst and the
and the economics analyst and the military analyst and the oil analyst and
military analyst and the oil analyst and this one and that one. I'm the last one
this one and that one. I'm the last one because I'm the most junior."
because I'm the most junior." So I said, I'm going to back up so I can
So I said, I'm going to back up so I can show you how how this went. I said, "My
show you how how this went. I said, "My name is John Kuryaku." I was overt, not
name is John Kuryaku." I was overt, not undercover. So I said, "My name is John
undercover. So I said, "My name is John Kuryaku and I'm going to brief you on
Kuryaku and I'm going to brief you on Saddam Hussein's psychology."
Saddam Hussein's psychology." And the Shinbetk guy, he has his glasses
And the Shinbetk guy, he has his glasses like this and he says, "Spell your
like this and he says, "Spell your name."
name." So I spell it, which made me angry. And
So I spell it, which made me angry. And then he says to me like this, "You are
then he says to me like this, "You are Jewish."
Jewish." And I said, "I am not recruitable. Don't
And I said, "I am not recruitable. Don't even think about trying to recruit me."
even think about trying to recruit me." I was enraged.
I was enraged. >> So afterwards,
>> So afterwards, everybody was laughing and they said,
everybody was laughing and they said, "They've done that to all of us. Every
"They've done that to all of us. Every one of us."
one of us." >> They tried to talk
>> They tried to talk >> right to your face, right in front of
>> right to your face, right in front of everybody. They tried to recruit you. I
everybody. They tried to recruit you. I got back to the office. He said, "My
got back to the office. He said, "My boss said, "How did it go?" And I said,
boss said, "How did it go?" And I said, "I'm so mad right now." And he said,
"I'm so mad right now." And he said, "Mossad tried to recruit you, didn't
"Mossad tried to recruit you, didn't they?" And I said, "Yes." He said, "They
they?" And I said, "Yes." He said, "They do that to everybody. They're just crude
do that to everybody. They're just crude about it. just like a punch in the face.
about it. just like a punch in the face. >> So where does that come from there? The
>> So where does that come from there? The that courage that was it courage would I
that courage that was it courage would I say courage or that um you know
when someone doesn't have uh right there's no filter. No filter. Yeah. I
there's no filter. No filter. Yeah. I think it's because they really truly
think it's because they really truly believe that they are alone in the
believe that they are alone in the world. For example, on my very first day
world. For example, on my very first day at the CIA, we had a series of
at the CIA, we had a series of briefings. The director came, "Welcome
briefings. The director came, "Welcome to the CIA. Congratulations.
to the CIA. Congratulations. And then the director of personnel, the
And then the director of personnel, the director of health insurance, the
director of health insurance, the director of whatever, the director of
director of whatever, the director of security.
security. So he told us things like, "There's a
So he told us things like, "There's a restaurant right down the street, a
restaurant right down the street, a steakhouse. Don't ever go there." He
steakhouse. Don't ever go there." He says,
says, >> "Because it's the restaurant that's
>> "Because it's the restaurant that's closest to the CIA. The KGB thinks that
closest to the CIA. The KGB thinks that we all go there. So they all go there.
we all go there. So they all go there. So the place is only KGB.
So the place is only KGB. So we never go inside. I've never been
So we never go inside. I've never been in there still to this day. So
in there still to this day. So he said the Israeli embassy has a
he said the Israeli embassy has a representative from Mossad and a
representative from Mossad and a representative from Shinbet, right? And
representative from Shinbet, right? And they conduct liaison with us. But the
they conduct liaison with us. But the FBI has identified
FBI has identified 187 Mossad agents in the United States
187 Mossad agents in the United States not declared to the US government spread
not declared to the US government spread all around the country to steal our
all around the country to steal our defense secrets. And I raised my hand. I
defense secrets. And I raised my hand. I said, "Why? We give them 99% of our
said, "Why? We give them 99% of our defense secrets." And he said, "Exactly.
defense secrets." And he said, "Exactly. They're here to steal the last 1%."
They're here to steal the last 1%." And that's what they do. The Israelis
And that's what they do. The Israelis are not friends of the United States.
are not friends of the United States. >> If the KGB did that, what would be what
>> If the KGB did that, what would be what would be the reaction of the United
would be the reaction of the United States?
States? >> We would arrest those sources and
>> We would arrest those sources and prosecute them just like we did with
prosecute them just like we did with Jonathan Pard, right? Jonathan Pard was
Jonathan Pard, right? Jonathan Pard was an American um Navy
an American um Navy uh analyst, Navy intelligence analyst.
uh analyst, Navy intelligence analyst. He was also Jewish and the Israelis
He was also Jewish and the Israelis recruited him to give them top secret
recruited him to give them top secret information on
information on uh the Soviet Union. But the Israelis
uh the Soviet Union. But the Israelis gave the information to the KGB and in
gave the information to the KGB and in exchange the KGB allowed the Russian
exchange the KGB allowed the Russian Jews to immigrate to Israel. So Pard was
Jews to immigrate to Israel. So Pard was arrested. He was charged with espionage,
arrested. He was charged with espionage, convicted.
convicted. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And spent 30 years in prison. He did the
>> And spent 30 years in prison. He did the the whole 30 years and then when he got
the whole 30 years and then when he got out
out uh Sheldon Adlesen, a rich American uh
uh Sheldon Adlesen, a rich American uh Jew,
Jew, provided his private jet,
provided his private jet, flew Pard back to Israel. He was met at
flew Pard back to Israel. He was met at the airport by Benjamin Netanyahu. When
the airport by Benjamin Netanyahu. When he got off the plane, he kissed the
he got off the plane, he kissed the ground in Israel and Netanyahu gave him
ground in Israel and Netanyahu gave him Israeli citizenship and now he's running
Israeli citizenship and now he's running for the Knesset.
for the Knesset. >> Wow.
>> Wow. anybody else would have died in prison
anybody else would have died in prison or eventually would have been the
or eventually would have been the subject of a prisoner exchange.
subject of a prisoner exchange. Him, he was one of the most damaging
Him, he was one of the most damaging spies in American history and now he's
spies in American history and now he's seen as some kind of a hero which makes
seen as some kind of a hero which makes me so angry. So this brings us to
me so angry. So this brings us to confronting the whole situation of the
confronting the whole situation of the Israeli involvement in the US. And
Israeli involvement in the US. And that's something I think is very
that's something I think is very critical to talk about now, especially
critical to talk about now, especially with what's happening in the world. And
with what's happening in the world. And we're not here to talk about taking
we're not here to talk about taking sides as much as laying down the facts
sides as much as laying down the facts and take and being on the right side of
and take and being on the right side of history
history >> in terms of where what's our take
>> in terms of where what's our take position in terms of how much Israel has
position in terms of how much Israel has influence in the United States
influence in the United States >> and how do they have that much influence
>> and how do they have that much influence and they're able to get away with a lot
and they're able to get away with a lot of things and a lot has to do with um
of things and a lot has to do with um their influence, right? Um, and so if we
their influence, right? Um, and so if we were to talk about this a little bit,
were to talk about this a little bit, um, how is Israel why how does Israel
um, how is Israel why how does Israel have that much influence in the US?
have that much influence in the US? Where does it come from? And and why
Where does it come from? And and why can't anyone do anything about it? Let
can't anyone do anything about it? Let me preface my answer by telling you that
me preface my answer by telling you that a few weeks ago,
a few weeks ago, an obscure
an obscure pro-Israel
pro-Israel journal, scholarly journal, published an
journal, scholarly journal, published an article written by the Israeli foreign
article written by the Israeli foreign minister's political director in which
minister's political director in which he said that I was a noted anti-semite.
he said that I was a noted anti-semite. >> You,
>> You, >> me,
>> me, >> because he criticizes
>> because he criticizes >> because I'm pro-Arab and I I criticize
>> because I'm pro-Arab and I I criticize Israel's u uh operations in the West
Israel's u uh operations in the West Bank and Gaza. Okay.
Bank and Gaza. Okay. noted anti-semite. Now, this is
noted anti-semite. Now, this is something they do on purpose. If you
something they do on purpose. If you don't tow the Israeli line, you're
don't tow the Israeli line, you're anti-Semitic
anti-Semitic even though you're not.
even though you're not. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Or in the case of any Arab, actually
>> Or in the case of any Arab, actually very Semitic because you're Arab.
very Semitic because you're Arab. >> So, um, [snorts] people like Tucker
>> So, um, [snorts] people like Tucker Carlson. Tucker Carlson was named a
Carlson. Tucker Carlson was named a couple of weeks ago as the anti-semite
couple of weeks ago as the anti-semite of the year. I know Tucker. He's a
of the year. I know Tucker. He's a friend of mine. There's not an
friend of mine. There's not an anti-semitic bone in his body.
anti-semitic bone in his body. >> Yeah, I met Tucker as well.
>> Yeah, I met Tucker as well. >> He supports Palestinian human rights.
>> He supports Palestinian human rights. That's it.
That's it. >> He's a guy who wants to put American
>> He's a guy who wants to put American America first. Exactly. He's he's asking
America first. Exactly. He's he's asking the same questions that I'm asking now.
the same questions that I'm asking now. >> Exactly. Right.
>> Exactly. Right. >> And I just want to know why.
>> And I just want to know why. >> It is. This is this pro-Israel thing has
>> It is. This is this pro-Israel thing has been going on for so long that most
been going on for so long that most Americans, I think, have fallen into its
Americans, I think, have fallen into its propaganda.
propaganda. And it's led by
And it's led by it. It's led by wealthy, in most cases,
it. It's led by wealthy, in most cases, Jewish voters who have donated money to
Jewish voters who have donated money to Apac, the um the American Israel Public
Apac, the um the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, which is essentially
Affairs Committee, which is essentially the Israel lobby.
the Israel lobby. >> And they spend millions, tens of
>> And they spend millions, tens of millions of dollars every single year on
millions of dollars every single year on political races across the country at
political races across the country at every level. It's not just Congress,
every level. It's not just Congress, it's the state races and even the local
it's the state races and even the local races. Oh, so they from from the
races. Oh, so they from from the grassroots
grassroots >> from the grassroots. And I'll get back
>> from the grassroots. And I'll get back to that in a second. If you are not 100%
to that in a second. If you are not 100% pro-Israel, they will run a candidate
pro-Israel, they will run a candidate against you and they'll spend millions
against you and they'll spend millions of dollars to beat you and they're
of dollars to beat you and they're successful.
successful. >> So, they're playing the system.
>> So, they're playing the system. >> Yeah. And they've they've spread this
>> Yeah. And they've they've spread this idea around the United States that has
idea around the United States that has taken hold that if you're not pro-
taken hold that if you're not pro- Israel, like somebody asked me this the
Israel, like somebody asked me this the the other day, are you pro- Israel? And
the other day, are you pro- Israel? And I said, "No, you're with the Iranians."
I said, "No, you're with the Iranians." It's like, "What? No,
It's like, "What? No, >> no, I'm not with Iranians." Like,
>> no, I'm not with Iranians." Like, "What's wrong with you?"
"What's wrong with you?" Or,
Or, "You're with al-Qaeda."
"You're with al-Qaeda." No, I'm not with al-Qaeda. Are you
No, I'm not with al-Qaeda. Are you crazy? I just don't think that the
crazy? I just don't think that the Israeli policy of killing everybody is a
Israeli policy of killing everybody is a viable policy. You know, you can't under
viable policy. You know, you can't under you can't have undergone a terrorist
you can't have undergone a terrorist attack and then have your policy as to
attack and then have your policy as to kill every man, woman, and child who
kill every man, woman, and child who breathes in Gaza. That's not a policy.
breathes in Gaza. That's not a policy. That's a genocide. There are very clear
That's a genocide. There are very clear laws about this to which the Israelis,
laws about this to which the Israelis, by the way, happen to be signitories.
by the way, happen to be signitories. You cannot kill civilians. And they do
You cannot kill civilians. And they do it every single day. Literally every
it every single day. Literally every single day. with what you've said, I
single day. with what you've said, I think it's very relevant to speak about
think it's very relevant to speak about the about Iran and the relationship
the about Iran and the relationship between Mossad
between Mossad >> and you have a book uh about it as well,
>> and you have a book uh about it as well, right?
right? >> Um it was released in 2000 uh about
>> Um it was released in 2000 uh about about Iran in specific. Oh, no. That
about Iran in specific. Oh, no. That that one was released in 20
that one was released in 20 >> sorry 2020 2020. Was it
>> sorry 2020 2020. Was it >> 2020?
>> 2020? >> Sorry. 2020. Sorry.
>> Sorry. 2020. Sorry. >> In 2020. Um that book was released and
>> In 2020. Um that book was released and because America was very close to going
because America was very close to going to war um during the Trump presidency,
to war um during the Trump presidency, the first term.
the first term. >> That's right.
>> That's right. >> With Iran. So you wrote a book about it
>> With Iran. So you wrote a book about it and you wrote it with with with another
and you wrote it with with with another person,
person, >> Gareth Porter.
>> Gareth Porter. >> Gareth Porter. and um you explained the
>> Gareth Porter. and um you explained the history of of of the relationship
history of of of the relationship between Iran and the United States. And
between Iran and the United States. And there was one thing that I'm going to
there was one thing that I'm going to quote from the book that's going to set
quote from the book that's going to set this conversation is you said that you
this conversation is you said that you argue that one of the reasons US policy
argue that one of the reasons US policy had repeatedly failed according to the
had repeatedly failed according to the book is a deep ignorance of Iranian
book is a deep ignorance of Iranian history.
history. Um, and you've you've also produced
Um, and you've you've also produced other layers and and since you've
other layers and and since you've already mentioned Israel, how would we
already mentioned Israel, how would we look at the Iranian US relationship? And
look at the Iranian US relationship? And is it inevitable that they're going to
is it inevitable that they're going to go to war?
That's the one of the toughest questions. It doesn't have to be
questions. It doesn't have to be inevitable. But I will say that
inevitable. But I will say that that I think the United States is to is
that I think the United States is to is more to blame than the Iranian side for
more to blame than the Iranian side for the the current
the the current status quo.
status quo. Americans just simply don't understand.
Americans just simply don't understand. Americans as a people don't understand
Americans as a people don't understand what happened in 1953. They don't
what happened in 1953. They don't understand that Iran had democratic
understand that Iran had democratic elections. They chose a democratically
elections. They chose a democratically elected prime minister, Muhammad
elected prime minister, Muhammad Masadek, and the UK and the US overthrew
Masadek, and the UK and the US overthrew him and installed a dictator, uh,
him and installed a dictator, uh, Muhammad Resa.
Muhammad Resa. Americans don't have any idea that that
Americans don't have any idea that that happened. It's not something that's
happened. It's not something that's that's discussed in the United States.
that's discussed in the United States. It's not something that's taught in the
It's not something that's taught in the schools. It's just ignored.
schools. It's just ignored. But one of the other things that the
But one of the other things that the that the American people don't
that the American people don't understand is the scar that this has
understand is the scar that this has left in modern day Iran.
left in modern day Iran. >> In Iran, it's as though it happened
>> In Iran, it's as though it happened yesterday. That's how fresh it is. This
yesterday. That's how fresh it is. This this outside uh uh interference.
this outside uh uh interference. Um, in in 1979, November 4th, 1979, uh,
Um, in in 1979, November 4th, 1979, uh, Iranian students overran the American
Iranian students overran the American embassy, what was left of the American
embassy, what was left of the American embassy in Tehran, and took hostages
embassy in Tehran, and took hostages that they held for 444 days. They didn't
that they held for 444 days. They didn't do that in a vacuum. They had reasons
do that in a vacuum. They had reasons for doing that. I disagree with those
for doing that. I disagree with those reasons. There are international laws
reasons. There are international laws that govern this kind of thing. Um, but
that govern this kind of thing. Um, but the Americans
the Americans are only taught the American side.
are only taught the American side. They're not taught the reason why this
They're not taught the reason why this happened. They're not taught about Sabak
happened. They're not taught about Sabak and the horrors that Saddak, you know,
and the horrors that Saddak, you know, inflicted on the Iranian people. They're
inflicted on the Iranian people. They're not taught about why we have so many
not taught about why we have so many Iranians in the United States that they
Iranians in the United States that they were forced to flee their country in
were forced to flee their country in 1978 and 1979 or subsequently. And so I
1978 and 1979 or subsequently. And so I think part of the problem is this
think part of the problem is this ignorance
ignorance >> of recent history, this ignorance of
>> of recent history, this ignorance of Iran and Iranian society.
Iran and Iranian society. And instead, you know, it's it's very
And instead, you know, it's it's very easy to just demonize a person. That way
easy to just demonize a person. That way you don't have to understand the
you don't have to understand the background. You can say
background. You can say you can say Muslims are terrorists,
you can say Muslims are terrorists, right? Muslims are in ISIS. They're in
right? Muslims are in ISIS. They're in al-Qaeda. They're in Hezbollah. So that
al-Qaeda. They're in Hezbollah. So that means Muslims are terrorists. Well,
means Muslims are terrorists. Well, that's ridiculous and it's wrong. But
that's ridiculous and it's wrong. But it's hard to educate yourself on the
it's hard to educate yourself on the history. It takes time. It takes
history. It takes time. It takes sensitivity. You have to have an eye for
sensitivity. You have to have an eye for nuance. You know, that would be like
nuance. You know, that would be like like me saying, "Well, we have these uh
like me saying, "Well, we have these uh militias in the Western United States.
militias in the Western United States. They're all conservative Christians, so
They're all conservative Christians, so Christians are terrorists." Well, that's
Christians are terrorists." Well, that's ridiculous, too.
ridiculous, too. >> It is.
>> It is. But most Americans don't have the desire
But most Americans don't have the desire >> to understand the nuance. So what made
>> to understand the nuance. So what made see even we're going to speak about 2001
see even we're going to speak about 2001 and what happened that the stereotypes
and what happened that the stereotypes of of of Muslims but Sean why was there
of of of Muslims but Sean why was there a almost like a deliberate and you
a almost like a deliberate and you mentioned also in the book that there
mentioned also in the book that there has been for nearly three decades over
has been for nearly three decades over five different administrations
five different administrations US Iran policy had been enveloped in a
US Iran policy had been enveloped in a political narrative.
political narrative. >> Yes. that portrayed the Islamic Republic
>> Yes. that portrayed the Islamic Republic as a secretly as secretly working on the
as a secretly as secretly working on the ultimate goal of obtaining nuclear
ultimate goal of obtaining nuclear weapons.
weapons. >> Right?
>> Right? >> So there's there's
>> So there's there's there's a people working in the United
there's a people working in the United States wanting the administrations to
States wanting the administrations to believe that Iran's working towards a
believe that Iran's working towards a nuclear weapon that's going to blow up
nuclear weapon that's going to blow up the West and and the US and that's
the West and and the US and that's dangerous for them. Um so so why is that
dangerous for them. Um so so why is that happening? Why is there a deliberate
happening? Why is there a deliberate push in a way where you think that is
push in a way where you think that is does not represent the reality of Iran?
does not represent the reality of Iran? >> I might argue sometimes a little bit
>> I might argue sometimes a little bit different because we know throughout his
different because we know throughout his history history Persia as an empire
history history Persia as an empire always wanted to
always wanted to >> take over the the Middle East. Um
>> take over the the Middle East. Um >> so from when we look at Iran and we look
>> so from when we look at Iran and we look at Persia, we know whether it's an
at Persia, we know whether it's an Islamic republic or a liberal republic
Islamic republic or a liberal republic or whatever it is
or whatever it is >> at the at the core of it is Persia and
>> at the at the core of it is Persia and they want to
they want to >> which could be a hegemon. Yeah.
>> which could be a hegemon. Yeah. >> Yeah. I listen I lived in Bahrain for
>> Yeah. I listen I lived in Bahrain for two years and they were obsessed with
two years and they were obsessed with the Iranians and the Iranians were
the Iranians and the Iranians were genuinely a threat to the Bahraini
genuinely a threat to the Bahraini government. So yeah, I I get it. I
government. So yeah, I I get it. I understand it. Um,
understand it. Um, at the same time, looking specifically
at the same time, looking specifically at the Iranian nuclear issue, the CIA
at the Iranian nuclear issue, the CIA has repeatedly released national
has repeatedly released national intelligence estimates or special
intelligence estimates or special national intelligence estimates saying
national intelligence estimates saying that they do not have any intelligence
that they do not have any intelligence showing that the Iranians are attempting
showing that the Iranians are attempting to make a weapon, a nuclear weapon.
to make a weapon, a nuclear weapon. >> What doesn't why doesn't it translate
>> What doesn't why doesn't it translate into the the into the White House? Why
into the the into the White House? Why is there a disconnect between those
is there a disconnect between those reports and the White House? because at
reports and the White House? because at the CIA they're not subject to political
the CIA they're not subject to political pressure from Apac or from Jewish
pressure from Apac or from Jewish voters. At the White House they are. And
voters. At the White House they are. And so, you know, the intelligence may say
so, you know, the intelligence may say one thing, policy is going to say
one thing, policy is going to say something that's different. That's how
something that's different. That's how you get elected.
you get elected. >> So, the the CIA, if you go to the CIA
>> So, the the CIA, if you go to the CIA today, they know that Iran
today, they know that Iran >> isn't a nuclear threat.
>> isn't a nuclear threat. >> Correct. And they release those reports.
>> Correct. And they release those reports. They're released to the public. They're
They're released to the public. They're declassified.
declassified. Mhm.
Mhm. >> Wow.
>> Wow. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a real disconnect.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's a real disconnect. >> I don't even know how to reply to this.
>> I don't even know how to reply to this. So,
So, >> see, but the thing is the the Israel for
>> see, but the thing is the the Israel for the Israelis, Iran is an existential
the Israelis, Iran is an existential threat, right? Iran has what 92 million
threat, right? Iran has what 92 million people. It's a gigantic country in terms
people. It's a gigantic country in terms of land mass. It has a history of
of land mass. It has a history of threatening its close neighbors,
threatening its close neighbors, including Kuwait. We all know this as a
including Kuwait. We all know this as a historical fact. There used to be an
historical fact. There used to be an active cell here in Kuwait that was
active cell here in Kuwait that was financed by
financed by seriously threatened the Kuwaiti
seriously threatened the Kuwaiti government. Uh so the the Iranians are
government. Uh so the the Iranians are not nifes in this thing. They're not
not nifes in this thing. They're not innocents in in this uh in this thing.
innocents in in this uh in this thing. At the same time,
At the same time, I get that the Israelis are afraid of
I get that the Israelis are afraid of Iran. I get it. But that doesn't mean
Iran. I get it. But that doesn't mean then that the United States has to
then that the United States has to attack Iran and overthrow its government
attack Iran and overthrow its government at all costs just to protect what may or
at all costs just to protect what may or may not be a real threat to Israel.
may not be a real threat to Israel. >> Right.
>> Right. >> Are like I don't even have the words.
>> Are like I don't even have the words. I'm struggling to get words out.
I'm struggling to get words out. Is it up to Benjamin Netanyahu to come
Is it up to Benjamin Netanyahu to come to Washington and to look the American
to Washington and to look the American people in the eye on television and say,
people in the eye on television and say, "I want you to send your children to the
"I want you to send your children to the Middle East to potentially die to
Middle East to potentially die to protect Israel."
protect Israel." >> Yeah, he did that in Congress.
>> Yeah, he did that in Congress. >> Yeah, I'm not doing that. I have five
>> Yeah, I'm not doing that. I have five children, four sons. I'm not sending
children, four sons. I'm not sending them to die for Israel. No. No. You need
them to die for Israel. No. No. You need to fix your foreign policy. Maybe start
to fix your foreign policy. Maybe start murder start stop Let me do that again.
murder start stop Let me do that again. maybe stop murdering Palestinians and
maybe stop murdering Palestinians and you won't have these constant political
you won't have these constant political pressures.
pressures. >> Yeah. So the the the Lud party and the
>> Yeah. So the the the Lud party and the farright party of um
farright party of um >> Smotri and
>> Smotri and >> Yeah. And and and even though the far
>> Yeah. And and and even though the far right party even throughout history
right party even throughout history before Smidge and Benavir and their
before Smidge and Benavir and their influence Yes. on on on the
influence Yes. on on on the administration and um speak to me about
administration and um speak to me about that. So how does that work in the US?
that. So how does that work in the US? Um, and I've I've seen old speeches for
Um, and I've I've seen old speeches for Netanyahu be while he was prime minister
Netanyahu be while he was prime minister and the times when he wasn't when we
and the times when he wasn't when we calculated his the time he is a prime
calculated his the time he is a prime minister, it's almost 20 years. So
minister, it's almost 20 years. So that's more
that's more >> he's the longest serving prime minister
>> he's the longest serving prime minister in Israeli history.
in Israeli history. >> And now he's the longest serving prime
>> And now he's the longest serving prime minister in the Middle East.
minister in the Middle East. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> And he says and and when they say that
>> And he says and and when they say that they have democracy, I I I look at this
they have democracy, I I I look at this fact as well. So that aside, how are we
fact as well. So that aside, how are we supposed to how do we see why is there
supposed to how do we see why is there so much influence or is there so much
so much influence or is there so much influence by the liquid party as you
influence by the liquid party as you state in your book specifically the
state in your book specifically the party or the farright movement of Israel
party or the farright movement of Israel on US policy or is it just Apac is just
on US policy or is it just Apac is just the whole Israel thing? I want I want to
the whole Israel thing? I want I want to differentiate.
differentiate. >> Yeah, I think it's I think it's a
>> Yeah, I think it's I think it's a combination of the two. But don't
combination of the two. But don't underestimate Netanyahu and his and his
underestimate Netanyahu and his and his political prowess. He's a brilliant
political prowess. He's a brilliant politician. Plus, he's born and raised
politician. Plus, he's born and raised in the United States. He speaks English
in the United States. He speaks English like an American. Um, and he's been
like an American. Um, and he's been around for so long that he's established
around for so long that he's established these relationships on Capitol Hill that
these relationships on Capitol Hill that others just don't have. Couple that with
others just don't have. Couple that with the money and the political pressure
the money and the political pressure coming from Apac and and you have a
coming from Apac and and you have a juggernaut. You can't lose. There's
juggernaut. You can't lose. There's there's another thing too
there's another thing too there. There was something there was a
there. There was something there was a nent movement in the United States
nent movement in the United States called the BDS movement uh boycott
called the BDS movement uh boycott devest and sanction and states
devest and sanction and states immediately at Apex urging immediately
immediately at Apex urging immediately began working against BDS.
began working against BDS. So that 35 of the maybe 38 now of the 50
So that 35 of the maybe 38 now of the 50 states have anti-BDS legislation. So for
states have anti-BDS legislation. So for example,
example, if I gave a speech in any one of these
if I gave a speech in any one of these 38 states and I said I believe that we
38 states and I said I believe that we should boycott Israeli goods and we
should boycott Israeli goods and we should devest in from investments in
should devest in from investments in Israeli companies and we should sanction
Israeli companies and we should sanction Israel until they start to respect human
Israel until they start to respect human rights. I can be arrested for saying
rights. I can be arrested for saying that.
that. >> Wow. In the US.
>> Wow. In the US. >> In the US.
>> In the US. >> But don't you have amend it first
>> But don't you have amend it first amendment rights? Oh, don't we have
amendment rights? Oh, don't we have first amendment rights to freedom of
first amendment rights to freedom of speech? Yes. So, how is it that these
speech? Yes. So, how is it that these laws can can run in parallel with the
laws can can run in parallel with the American Constitution? Hasn't been
American Constitution? Hasn't been decided by the Supreme Court yet, but
decided by the Supreme Court yet, but it's coming to that. I'll give you
it's coming to that. I'll give you another example. A good friend of mine
another example. A good friend of mine who is pro Palestinian was invited to
who is pro Palestinian was invited to give a speech at the University of
give a speech at the University of Georgia. So, when she went, she was
Georgia. So, when she went, she was told, "In order to be paid, you have to
told, "In order to be paid, you have to sign this pledge." And it was a pledge
sign this pledge." And it was a pledge where she was pledging [snorts]
where she was pledging [snorts] support for Israel.
support for Israel. It's like, "Wait a minute. I'm giving a
It's like, "Wait a minute. I'm giving a speech at the University of Georgia. Why
speech at the University of Georgia. Why would I pledge my support for Israel? I
would I pledge my support for Israel? I don't support Israel." They said, "Then
don't support Israel." They said, "Then you can't you can't speak at the
you can't you can't speak at the university. This is part of the BDS law.
university. This is part of the BDS law. You have to say in writing, I support
You have to say in writing, I support Israel or you can't work." And she said,
Israel or you can't work." And she said, "Forget it." So she sued.
"Forget it." So she sued. >> Yeah. And she won at the federal
>> Yeah. And she won at the federal district court level and then at the
district court level and then at the circuit court level she lost.
circuit court level she lost. >> Why?
>> Why? >> Because they said that the state
>> Because they said that the state governments had passed this law saying
governments had passed this law saying that you are not allowed to take any
that you are not allowed to take any state money unless you pledge your
state money unless you pledge your support for Israel. The reason they did
support for Israel. The reason they did that was to just allow the Supreme Court
that was to just allow the Supreme Court to make the final decision.
to make the final decision. So that's what we're waiting for now.
So that's what we're waiting for now. >> That's crazy, huh?
>> That's crazy, huh? >> It's crazy. There was a there was an
>> It's crazy. There was a there was an article I was in Miami just a couple of
article I was in Miami just a couple of days ago and there was an article about
days ago and there was an article about a woman in Miami Beach. Miami Beach is
a woman in Miami Beach. Miami Beach is very heavily Jewish. So she lives in
very heavily Jewish. So she lives in Miami Beach and she wrote a Facebook
Miami Beach and she wrote a Facebook post saying that she supported
post saying that she supported Palestinian human rights. Next thing you
Palestinian human rights. Next thing you know, the very next day,
know, the very next day, police, we want to talk to you about
police, we want to talk to you about that Facebook post. And she just closed
that Facebook post. And she just closed the door, talked to my lawyer. So, is
the door, talked to my lawyer. So, is that where we are now? Where if you say
that where we are now? Where if you say you support Palestinian human rights,
you support Palestinian human rights, the police come to your house to
the police come to your house to investigate you?
investigate you? I'm willing to fight for that.
I'm willing to fight for that. >> Yeah. I think any what I think fighting
>> Yeah. I think any what I think fighting for that is today it's human rights.
for that is today it's human rights. It's it's Palestinian rights. Tomorrow
It's it's Palestinian rights. Tomorrow it can be your rights. The next day you
it can be your rights. The next day you can't speak for Greek Greek rights.
>> okay, >> for this big crime. Then they open all
>> for this big crime. Then they open all the drawers and they take a picture of
the drawers and they take a picture of everything. Everything. Hundreds and
everything. Everything. Hundreds and hundreds of pictures of everything. The
hundreds of pictures of everything. The CIA doesn't care about any of that
CIA doesn't care about any of that stuff. They just want to go grab the guy
stuff. They just want to go grab the guy and take him to the jail. That's it.
and take him to the jail. That's it. >> Yeah. You know, no. The FBI, they lose
>> Yeah. You know, no. The FBI, they lose their minds like, "Oh, no, no, you can't
their minds like, "Oh, no, no, you can't talk to him. He hasn't been read his
talk to him. He hasn't been read his rights." What rights?
rights." What rights? So this was a big big fight. I'll give
So this was a big big fight. I'll give you an example.
you an example. >> They're not they're not even in the US.
>> They're not they're not even in the US. They're not US citizens. No,
They're not US citizens. No, >> they're not in the US. What rights are
>> they're not in the US. What rights are they obligated to?
they obligated to? >> The right to remain silent. Everything
>> The right to remain silent. Everything you say can and will be used against you
you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to
in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney. If you cannot afford an
an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will will be provided uh
attorney, one will will be provided uh for you at no cost. Do you understand
for you at no cost. Do you understand these rights as I have spoken them to
these rights as I have spoken them to you? because they're going to be trial
you? because they're going to be trial in the US jurisdiction.
in the US jurisdiction. >> That was the idea. So,
>> That was the idea. So, I'm on the roof of the Fisabad safe
I'm on the roof of the Fisabad safe house and I said to my colleague, I
house and I said to my colleague, I said, "Oh, 200,
said, "Oh, 200, here we go." And as soon as I said it,
here we go." And as soon as I said it, we could hear this noise in the
we could hear this noise in the distance. Boink, boink, like metal
distance. Boink, boink, like metal against metal. And I said, "That's not
against metal. And I said, "That's not good." At 2:00 in the morning, nobody in
good." At 2:00 in the morning, nobody in Pakistan is awake. the whole country is
Pakistan is awake. the whole country is sleeping. It's complete silence at
sleeping. It's complete silence at night. So this noise at 2 o'clock in the
night. So this noise at 2 o'clock in the morning, we were near the site 13, the
morning, we were near the site 13, the final site. I said, "That's not good."
final site. I said, "That's not good." And as soon as I said that, we hear
And as soon as I said that, we hear shots fired. I said, "Oh my god, that's
shots fired. I said, "Oh my god, that's really not good." So I got on the
really not good." So I got on the walkie-talkie. I said, "Sight 13, come
walkie-talkie. I said, "Sight 13, come in. Site 13, what's going on over
in. Site 13, what's going on over there?"
there?" Rule Rule number one of intelligence
Rule Rule number one of intelligence operations, the batteries never work. I
operations, the batteries never work. I complained later when I went back to
complained later when I went back to headquarters. I went with the deputy
headquarters. I went with the deputy director of the CIA to NSA and they
director of the CIA to NSA and they wanted to hear about the operation and
wanted to hear about the operation and what they could do to make things
what they could do to make things better. And I said, "People, we put a
better. And I said, "People, we put a man on the moon and you can't make a
man on the moon and you can't make a battery that lives more than 2 hours."
battery that lives more than 2 hours." Like, seriously.
Like, seriously. >> So, communication was out
>> So, communication was out >> out
>> out >> at the very at the most important
>> at the very at the most important >> at the point where I needed it the most.
>> at the point where I needed it the most. So, I picked up my phone. I called the
So, I picked up my phone. I called the guy on site 13. I said, "What's going on
guy on site 13. I said, "What's going on over there?" He said, "Shots fired.
over there?" He said, "Shots fired. Shots fired." I said, 'I know. I hear
Shots fired." I said, 'I know. I hear the shots. I'm asking you what's going
the shots. I'm asking you what's going on.
We jumped in the car. We speed over to site 13. It's a scene of chaos.
site 13. It's a scene of chaos. One guy is clearly and obviously dead
One guy is clearly and obviously dead laying in the laying in the street.
laying in the laying in the street. And so, um,
I didn't I I wasn't sure what to do to tell you the truth. I'm trying to find
tell you the truth. I'm trying to find the pictures from that night.
the pictures from that night. >> Okay. So,
>> Okay. So, >> that that's the one that
>> that that's the one that when we got to the site, it was chaos
when we got to the site, it was chaos there. The first thing we saw, there
there. The first thing we saw, there were three men laying in the street. One
were three men laying in the street. One was clearly dead. He was a bomb maker
was clearly dead. He was a bomb maker from Syria.
from Syria. The other one looked like he was almost
The other one looked like he was almost dead. And then there was a third who was
dead. And then there was a third who was just screaming.
just screaming. This was the one that was almost dead.
This was the one that was almost dead. This was Abu Zuba.
This was Abu Zuba. >> That's Abu Zuba.
>> That's Abu Zuba. >> That's Abu Zuba.
>> That's Abu Zuba. So
I said, "What happened here?" >> Yeah. The last thing I said in the safe
>> Yeah. The last thing I said in the safe house before we kicked off, I said the
house before we kicked off, I said the orders are to take them alive.
orders are to take them alive. No shooting. And I was looking at the
No shooting. And I was looking at the Pakistanis when I said this. No
Pakistanis when I said this. No shooting.
shooting. Of course, they just opened fire.
Of course, they just opened fire. You you're clearly annoyed with that.
You you're clearly annoyed with that. >> Very even after all these years, like
>> Very even after all these years, like there was just one thing that I was very
there was just one thing that I was very specific about. Do not shoot him.
specific about. Do not shoot him. Shot him three times with an AK-47
Shot him three times with an AK-47 in the thigh, the groin, and the
in the thigh, the groin, and the stomach.
stomach. So when I got there, I said, "What
So when I got there, I said, "What happened?" And this Pakistani says, "We
happened?" And this Pakistani says, "We got him. We got your man." I said,
got him. We got your man." I said, "Where is he? Right there." I said,
"Where is he? Right there." I said, "That doesn't look anything like the
"That doesn't look anything like the pictures." I said, "Are you sure it's
pictures." I said, "Are you sure it's him?"
him?" No.
No. I said, "Well, now what do I do?" I
I said, "Well, now what do I do?" I called the analyst. I said, ' Listen,
called the analyst. I said, ' Listen, the Pakistanis shot three guys. They say
the Pakistanis shot three guys. They say one of them is him. I don't know what to
one of them is him. I don't know what to do. How do we identify him? He says,
do. How do we identify him? He says, "Get me a picture of his of his eye and
"Get me a picture of his of his eye and I'll run a retinal scan." So, I sat or I
I'll run a retinal scan." So, I sat or I knelt down above him above him and I
knelt down above him above him and I said, "Uh, if
said, "Uh, if nothing."
nothing." So, I pull his eyelids back and his eyes
So, I pull his eyelids back and his eyes were just white. I couldn't see
were just white. I couldn't see anything. They were rolled back in his
anything. They were rolled back in his head. I said, "Listen, this guy is
head. I said, "Listen, this guy is bleeding to death. I I can't get his
bleeding to death. I I can't get his eyes."
eyes." >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> I was going to kill the Pakistanis. I
>> I was going to kill the Pakistanis. I was so mad.
was so mad. So he said, "Get me a picture of his
So he said, "Get me a picture of his ear." I said, "His ear?" He said, "Yeah,
ear." I said, "His ear?" He said, "Yeah, ears are like fingerprints. No two
ears are like fingerprints. No two people on earth have the same ears."
people on earth have the same ears." >> Okay. I didn't know that.
>> Okay. I didn't know that. >> I didn't know that. So I took a picture
>> I didn't know that. So I took a picture of his ear. I had to plug it into my
of his ear. I had to plug it into my phone, the camera, because phones didn't
phone, the camera, because phones didn't have cameras in those days.
have cameras in those days. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> I sent it to the analyst. He sent it to
>> I sent it to the analyst. He sent it to CIA headquarters. They came back a
CIA headquarters. They came back a minute later. They said, "It's him."
minute later. They said, "It's him." >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> We pick him up. We throw him in the back
>> We pick him up. We throw him in the back of this filthy pickup truck that you
of this filthy pickup truck that you see, this filthy Toyota pickup truck.
see, this filthy Toyota pickup truck. This poor guy was just driving through
This poor guy was just driving through this the neighborhood when the CIA is
this the neighborhood when the CIA is doing this operation. We pull the guy
doing this operation. We pull the guy out of his truck. We steal the truck. We
out of his truck. We steal the truck. We gave him some money later, but we throw
gave him some money later, but we throw Abu Zuba in the back and then we drive
Abu Zuba in the back and then we drive to Fisabad Hospital, one of the worst
to Fisabad Hospital, one of the worst places on earth.
places on earth. >> The windows are open, the doors are
>> The windows are open, the doors are open. Dogs and cats are just walking up
open. Dogs and cats are just walking up and down the halls of the hospital.
and down the halls of the hospital. Swarms, clouds of mosquitoes are just
Swarms, clouds of mosquitoes are just drinking people's blood on open wounds.
drinking people's blood on open wounds. It was frightening.
It was frightening. >> It was a local poor hospital.
>> It was a local poor hospital. >> Mhm. I'd rather be dead than to have to
>> Mhm. I'd rather be dead than to have to be treated in a place like that.
be treated in a place like that. By now it's like 3:20 in the morning
By now it's like 3:20 in the morning and
and all these Americans come in dressed as
all these Americans come in dressed as Pakistanis with an Arab
Pakistanis with an Arab and I said to the doctor,
and I said to the doctor, "You have to save him. My orders were to
"You have to save him. My orders were to take him alive." And the doctor's like,
take him alive." And the doctor's like, I said, "Go take him." So they took him
I said, "Go take him." So they took him into the emergency room.
into the emergency room. I sat down with one of my colleagues,
I sat down with one of my colleagues, with two of my colleagues, and with two
with two of my colleagues, and with two Pakistanis.
Word got around the al-Qaeda community that we had gotten him.
that we had gotten him. >> And so they started driving by the
>> And so they started driving by the hospital and just opening fire on the
hospital and just opening fire on the hospital. We were diving down to save
hospital. We were diving down to save ourselves. I said to Major Khaled, "If
ourselves. I said to Major Khaled, "If they realize how lightly armed we are,
they realize how lightly armed we are, we're dead. Can you get a helicopter in
we're dead. Can you get a helicopter in here?" And he said, "I think so." So, he
here?" And he said, "I think so." So, he makes a call. 20 minutes later, this
makes a call. 20 minutes later, this helicopter lands in the parking lot. I
helicopter lands in the parking lot. I walked into the the operating room like
walked into the the operating room like this. I said, "Doc, wrap it up. We have
this. I said, "Doc, wrap it up. We have to go." They sew him closed as quickly
to go." They sew him closed as quickly as they could. We put them on the
as they could. We put them on the helicopter and we fly away. And we land
helicopter and we fly away. And we land oh about 75 or 80 kilometers away uh at
oh about 75 or 80 kilometers away uh at a Pakistani military base. It had a
a Pakistani military base. It had a hospital. Not even a hospital. It was a
hospital. Not even a hospital. It was a clinic.
clinic. >> It it was round with a nurses station in
>> It it was round with a nurses station in the center and it had eight like bays.
the center and it had eight like bays. Um but they had an operating room. So we
Um but they had an operating room. So we landed there. They were waiting for us.
landed there. They were waiting for us. They rushed him into the operating room.
They rushed him into the operating room. And as they're getting him prepared, the
And as they're getting him prepared, the doctor comes out and he says, "I should
doctor comes out and he says, "I should tell you, I've never seen injuries this
tell you, I've never seen injuries this severe where the patient lives."
severe where the patient lives." >> So, we're prepared for him to die.
>> So, we're prepared for him to die. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> And I said, "Okay." So, I called the
>> And I said, "Okay." So, I called the analyst. I said, "Listen, they think
analyst. I said, "Listen, they think he's going to die. These these wounds
he's going to die. These these wounds are too severe. That dog on Pakistanis,
are too severe. That dog on Pakistanis, the way they shot him like they did." It
the way they shot him like they did." It turned out that Abu Zubeda, the Syrian
turned out that Abu Zubeda, the Syrian bomb maker, and Abu Zuba's bodyguard,
bomb maker, and Abu Zuba's bodyguard, who was also Syria, climbed to the roof
who was also Syria, climbed to the roof of the house when we started to break
of the house when we started to break the door down
the door down >> cuz it wasn't really breaking at the
>> cuz it wasn't really breaking at the beginning, right? So, they
beginning, right? So, they >> was reinforced with steel, which is why
>> was reinforced with steel, which is why it was making that sound, that metalon
it was making that sound, that metalon metal sound. So, while we're trying to
metal sound. So, while we're trying to break the door down, they climbed to the
break the door down, they climbed to the roof and they were jumping to the next
roof and they were jumping to the next door roof to escape.
door roof to escape. And this Pakistani bang bang bang bang
And this Pakistani bang bang bang bang bang like that shot them all.
bang like that shot them all. >> So two What about the other two? They
>> So two What about the other two? They died.
died. >> The If you could go to the next picture,
>> The If you could go to the next picture, that's the bodyguard. He lived.
that's the bodyguard. He lived. >> Oh, he lived.
>> Oh, he lived. >> And believe it or not, he kept his leg.
>> And believe it or not, he kept his leg. >> Oh, wow.
>> Oh, wow. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> No, the other one. Okay.
>> No, the other one. Okay. >> The the the leg that you see there, he's
>> The the the leg that you see there, he's dead.
dead. >> Okay. That's that's
>> Okay. That's that's >> the guy on the left lived. The guy on
>> the guy on the left lived. The guy on the right died.
the right died. >> He kept his leg because he's wounded in
>> He kept his leg because he's wounded in his leg.
his leg. >> He's wounded right through the center of
>> He's wounded right through the center of his of his leg. Upper leg.
his of his leg. Upper leg. >> They're all very young. They're young
>> They're all very young. They're young boys, huh?
boys, huh? >> They're all young. All in their 20s.
>> They're all young. All in their 20s. Yeah. They were all young. Can you go to
Yeah. They were all young. Can you go to the next picture?
the next picture? >> That's the bomb maker.
>> That's the bomb maker. >> Uh that's the Syrian guy.
>> Uh that's the Syrian guy. >> The Syrian guy.
>> The Syrian guy. >> He's dead.
>> He's dead. >> He was dead before he hit the ground.
>> He was dead before he hit the ground. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> The Pakistani killed him instantly.
>> The Pakistani killed him instantly. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> We found Was there evidence or stuff?
>> We found Was there evidence or stuff? Other are the other photos or no? Oh,
Other are the other photos or no? Oh, there's a lot.
there's a lot. >> What? Okay,
>> What? Okay, >> this was I was on the phone. This is
>> this was I was on the phone. This is right after the Abu Zabeta operation. I
right after the Abu Zabeta operation. I was on the phone with my girlfriend and
was on the phone with my girlfriend and we heard this
we heard this like that. She said, "What was that?" I
like that. She said, "What was that?" I said, "I don't know. It sounded like an
said, "I don't know. It sounded like an explosion." And then we heard
explosion." And then we heard and she said, "Oh my god." I said, "I
and she said, "Oh my god." I said, "I have to go." And I hung up. Then the
have to go." And I hung up. Then the embassy uh sirens went on. Take cover.
embassy uh sirens went on. Take cover. Take cover. Take cover. What that means
Take cover. Take cover. What that means is all the State Department people take
is all the State Department people take cover. All the CIA people grab their
cover. All the CIA people grab their guns and run outside to see what the
guns and run outside to see what the problem is. So we ran outside with our
problem is. So we ran outside with our guns. The American embassy was right
guns. The American embassy was right next door to a church, a
next door to a church, a multi-denominational church open to
multi-denominational church open to everybody. Three al-Qaeda terrorists
everybody. Three al-Qaeda terrorists went inside the church during a church
went inside the church during a church service.
service. Two of them started throwing hand
Two of them started throwing hand grenades into the
grenades into the >> the the people. One of them just opened
>> the the people. One of them just opened fire. They killed seven. They wounded
fire. They killed seven. They wounded 27, but they killed several of our
27, but they killed several of our colleagues. And it's funny, you know,
colleagues. And it's funny, you know, that morning I got to the office and one
that morning I got to the office and one of the old men said, "Hey, you want to
of the old men said, "Hey, you want to go to church?" And I said, "You know,
go to church?" And I said, "You know, I'd love to, but I have so much work
I'd love to, but I have so much work today. I I just can't. I'll go with you
today. I I just can't. I'll go with you next week." So, he went to church, they
next week." So, he went to church, they attacked the church,
attacked the church, and they killed him.
and they killed him. >> Oh.
>> Oh. >> So, if you can go to the next one, it
>> So, if you can go to the next one, it was a scene of chaos. No, that's that
was a scene of chaos. No, that's that we'll come back. These don't seem to be
we'll come back. These don't seem to be in any kind of weird order. I don't know
in any kind of weird order. I don't know why.
why. >> No, let's go to on the left. Just put a
>> No, let's go to on the left. Just put a mouse on the left.
mouse on the left. >> Yeah, they didn't arrive in order.
>> Yeah, they didn't arrive in order. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Go keep going down.
>> Go keep going down. >> Keep going down.
>> Keep going down. >> Okay. Go to
>> Okay. Go to >> which number?
>> which number? >> Uh go to number
>> Uh go to number eight.
eight. And And
And And the church was in chaos.
the church was in chaos. What a grenade can do. It's It's
What a grenade can do. It's It's incredible the damage something so small
incredible the damage something so small can do. Go to the next one.
can do. Go to the next one. >> As you can see, it was just chaos. And
>> As you can see, it was just chaos. And you see the walls are speckled with
you see the walls are speckled with blood and with brain matter.
blood and with brain matter. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> These are FBI colleagues of mine.
>> These are FBI colleagues of mine. >> Yeah. Oh, wow.
>> Yeah. Oh, wow. >> Go to the next one.
Oh, >> the last
>> the last >> terrorist
>> terrorist saved a grenade for himself and when he
saved a grenade for himself and when he ran out of ammunition and ran out of
ran out of ammunition and ran out of grenades, he pulled the pin and he put
grenades, he pulled the pin and he put it against his neck. You can see the
it against his neck. You can see the chaos that it caused and there's blood
chaos that it caused and there's blood everywhere.
everywhere. >> Crazy people, huh?
>> Crazy people, huh? >> Go to the next one.
>> Go to the next one. >> That's my goodness.
>> That's my goodness. >> That's his brain on the ceiling.
>> That's his brain on the ceiling. >> He didn't want to feel pain. No. And I'm
>> He didn't want to feel pain. No. And I'm sure he didn't.
sure he didn't. He didn't live long enough to feel pain.
He didn't live long enough to feel pain. >> Oh my goodness.
>> Oh my goodness. >> We tried to piece him together.
>> We tried to piece him together. >> That one.
>> That one. >> That one.
>> That one. >> We tried to
>> We tried to >> You don't You don't have to look at it.
>> You don't You don't have to look at it. Man, press on it. Okay. Yeah.
Man, press on it. Okay. Yeah. >> We tried to piece him together, but we
>> We tried to piece him together, but we didn't have very much luck.
didn't have very much luck. >> Oh my goodness, man. You
>> Oh my goodness, man. You >> You were You were exposed to those
>> You were You were exposed to those scenes first time, huh? How were you
scenes first time, huh? How were you able to deal with the trauma of seeing
able to deal with the trauma of seeing all of these things?
all of these things? >> You know, it's funny
>> You know, it's funny there's a large psychology staff
there's a large psychology staff >> at the CIA. [clears throat]
>> at the CIA. [clears throat] You have to constantly go through
You have to constantly go through psychological evaluation
psychological evaluation and um I got back after this and I had
and um I got back after this and I had to go, you know, see the psychologist
to go, you know, see the psychologist like everybody does. And I went through
like everybody does. And I went through these tests and they interviewed me over
these tests and they interviewed me over several of the course of several days
several of the course of several days and the psychologist said, "I find it
and the psychologist said, "I find it incredible that you don't have PTSD from
incredible that you don't have PTSD from Pakistan."
Pakistan." And I said, you know, I don't know why I
And I said, you know, I don't know why I don't have PTSD. I think I was so busy
don't have PTSD. I think I was so busy and I felt so strongly about the goals
and I felt so strongly about the goals of the operation that I just didn't like
of the operation that I just didn't like in my mind I convinced myself that bad
in my mind I convinced myself that bad things happened to other people and I
things happened to other people and I was going to be fine. And she said, "But
was going to be fine. And she said, "But you have crippling PTSD from your
you have crippling PTSD from your divorce."
divorce." >> And I said, "You know what? I'll let you
>> And I said, "You know what? I'll let you guys figure that out.
guys figure that out. Yeah.
Yeah. >> So it was it was an ugly day.
>> So it was it was an ugly day. >> So back to the story of he went but they
>> So back to the story of he went but they took him to this military clinic.
took him to this military clinic. >> So he he went through surgery and then
>> So he he went through surgery and then the analyst called me back and he said
the analyst called me back and he said that the director of the CIA George
that the director of the CIA George Tennant had just called and wanted the
Tennant had just called and wanted the analyst to relay a message to me and the
analyst to relay a message to me and the message was 247
message was 247 CIA eyes on do not leave his bedside. I
CIA eyes on do not leave his bedside. I said, "I've been I've been sitting here.
said, "I've been I've been sitting here. I mean, not sitting here. I've been I've
I mean, not sitting here. I've been I've been awake for 24 hours. I'm I'm tired."
been awake for 24 hours. I'm I'm tired." And he said, "You can't leave his bed."
And he said, "You can't leave his bed." I said, "Okay."
I said, "Okay." So, they brought him out of surgery. He
So, they brought him out of surgery. He was in a coma.
was in a coma. And I thought,
And I thought, "Maybe he's gonna I'm gonna fall asleep
"Maybe he's gonna I'm gonna fall asleep and he's gonna get up and run away. I
and he's gonna get up and run away. I don't know. Maybe the doctor is
don't know. Maybe the doctor is al-Qaeda."
al-Qaeda." So, I tore up a sheet and I tied his
So, I tore up a sheet and I tied his wrists and his ankles to the bed. And
wrists and his ankles to the bed. And then I put the ceiling fan on high to
then I put the ceiling fan on high to make it just a little bit too cold.
make it just a little bit too cold. >> So, he can't sleep.
>> So, he can't sleep. >> So, I couldn't sleep.
>> So, I couldn't sleep. So,
So, >> I sat at the foot of his bed in a chair
>> I sat at the foot of his bed in a chair like this and I just stared at him.
like this and I just stared at him. He was bleeding so profusely
He was bleeding so profusely that the blood soaked through the sheets
that the blood soaked through the sheets of the bed and was in a pool on the
of the bed and was in a pool on the floor like it was like a scene from a
floor like it was like a scene from a horror movie.
horror movie. At the end of it we we were all covered
At the end of it we we were all covered in his blood.
in his blood. >> So
>> So finally I called a colleague of mine at
finally I called a colleague of mine at the safe house. I said I said buddy do
the safe house. I said I said buddy do me a favor. I said I smell so bad that
me a favor. I said I smell so bad that I'm grossing myself out. I have clean
I'm grossing myself out. I have clean underwear, socks, and shirt at the safe
underwear, socks, and shirt at the safe house. Can you bring them to me? And I'm
house. Can you bring them to me? And I'm starving. Bring me something to eat.
starving. Bring me something to eat. So, an hour later, he comes.
So, an hour later, he comes. I had only a red t-shirt that was clean
I had only a red t-shirt that was clean with Spongebob Squarepants on the front.
with Spongebob Squarepants on the front. My sons had given it to me for
My sons had given it to me for Christmas, and I sleep in it. Okay.
Christmas, and I sleep in it. Okay. >> I still have it.
>> I still have it. >> So, I got changed. I'm still wearing my
>> So, I got changed. I'm still wearing my Shelwar Kamsey pants.
Shelwar Kamsey pants. >> Yeah. And I have the Spongebob t-shirt
>> Yeah. And I have the Spongebob t-shirt and new underwear and socks. Thank god
and new underwear and socks. Thank god they were clean.
they were clean. So
So I sat back down at the bed and I'm just
I sat back down at the bed and I'm just staring at him. And finally he starts
staring at him. And finally he starts like this like he's starting to wake up.
like this like he's starting to wake up. So, I stood up next to the bed and I put
So, I stood up next to the bed and I put my hands on my hips and I'm staring at
my hands on my hips and I'm staring at him. And then he opens one eye and you
him. And then he opens one eye and you could see the exact moment when he said,
could see the exact moment when he said, "Oh my god, the Americans have me."
"Oh my god, the Americans have me." Because he looked at Spongebob.
Because he looked at Spongebob. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And his heart rate, it went from 110 to
>> And his heart rate, it went from 110 to 220. And the machine started going beep.
220. And the machine started going beep. And then I hear this announcement.
And then I hear this announcement. >> Code blue. Code blue, bay three, code
>> Code blue. Code blue, bay three, code blue. And then they rush in and they
blue. And then they rush in and they have the paddles and they say clear.
have the paddles and they say clear. Choo choo. Like that. And then they give
Choo choo. Like that. And then they give him a shot of demoral and he's out.
him a shot of demoral and he's out. >> Sleep. Yeah.
>> Sleep. Yeah. >> He was so upset it almost killed him.
>> He was so upset it almost killed him. >> Yeah. And so he slept for another I
>> Yeah. And so he slept for another I don't know six hours and then he finally
don't know six hours and then he finally woke up and he's laying there tied to
woke up and he's laying there tied to the bed and he's looking at me and I'm
the bed and he's looking at me and I'm looking at him and then he goes like
looking at him and then he goes like this for me to come next to him.
this for me to come next to him. So I moved his oxygen mask over to the
So I moved his oxygen mask over to the side and I said
side and I said and he goes like this. So I said again
and he goes like this. So I said again and then he says I will not speak to you
and then he says I will not speak to you in God's language.
in God's language. >> Oh we spoke to you in English
>> Oh we spoke to you in English >> and I said that's okay Abu Zuba we know
>> and I said that's okay Abu Zuba we know who you are and then he started crying
who you are and then he started crying and he said please brother kill me take
and he said please brother kill me take the pillow and kill me. And I said oh
the pillow and kill me. And I said oh nobody's going to kill you. We've been
nobody's going to kill you. We've been looking for you for a long time.
looking for you for a long time. He said what's going to happen to me?
He said what's going to happen to me? And I said, "Honestly, I don't know. I
And I said, "Honestly, I don't know. I will tell you that you are going to get
will tell you that you are going to get the best medical care that the American
the best medical care that the American government can provide." And he did.
government can provide." And he did. But I said, "I'm also going to tell you
But I said, "I'm also going to tell you something else. I am the nicest man that
something else. I am the nicest man that you're going to meet in this experience.
you're going to meet in this experience. My colleagues are not nice like I am.
My colleagues are not nice like I am. So, if there's one thing that you do,
So, if there's one thing that you do, you have to cooperate.
you have to cooperate. and he said, "You seem like a nice man,
and he said, "You seem like a nice man, but you're the enemy and I'll never
but you're the enemy and I'll never cooperate."
cooperate." I said, "Suit yourself."
I said, "Suit yourself." So, I sat back down again.
So, I sat back down again. As he got stronger, I should say I was I
As he got stronger, I should say I was I was physically with him alone in the
was physically with him alone in the room for 56 hours.
room for 56 hours. >> As he got a little bit stronger, he
>> As he got a little bit stronger, he wanted to talk. He cried a lot.
wanted to talk. He cried a lot. He said he would never know the touch of
He said he would never know the touch of a woman. He would never know the joy of
a woman. He would never know the joy of fatherhood. I said, "You're not the
fatherhood. I said, "You're not the victim here. There were 50,000 people in
victim here. There were 50,000 people in those towers. Did you think we weren't
those towers. Did you think we weren't going to look for you? Look for Bin
going to look for you? Look for Bin Laden, try to kill him. What did you
Laden, try to kill him. What did you think was going to happen?" And he said,
think was going to happen?" And he said, "I didn't want to attack the United
"I didn't want to attack the United States." He wanted to attack Israel, but
States." He wanted to attack Israel, but he said, "There were others who were
he said, "There were others who were more important than me."
more important than me." I said, "Well, I'm going to tell you
I said, "Well, I'm going to tell you again. Your life is over. What remains
again. Your life is over. What remains of it can be easy or it can be terrible.
of it can be easy or it can be terrible. Make it easy. You have to cooperate.
Make it easy. You have to cooperate. One of the things that we took that
One of the things that we took that night that we got him was his diary.
night that we got him was his diary. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> It was sitting on a table next to his
>> It was sitting on a table next to his bed. So, while he was unconscious, I
bed. So, while he was unconscious, I started leafing through it and I
started leafing through it and I realized immediately this is really
realized immediately this is really important.
important. Why wasn't it with FBI?
>> It ended up being with the FBI. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> This was the cause of a major split
>> This was the cause of a major split between the CIA and the FBI. The FBI
between the CIA and the FBI. The FBI said, "We want that thing." I said,
said, "We want that thing." I said, "Fine, take it. I already read it."
"Fine, take it. I already read it." It was more than a diary, though.
It was more than a diary, though. Yeah, it was a diary in part, but he was
Yeah, it was a diary in part, but he was writing poetry. He was a very
writing poetry. He was a very accomplished artist. Like I would pay
accomplished artist. Like I would pay money in an art gallery for what he was
money in an art gallery for what he was drawing.
drawing. Most interestingly though, he was
Most interestingly though, he was writing letters to himself as a young
writing letters to himself as a young man. So here's the 30-year-old Abu Zuba.
man. So here's the 30-year-old Abu Zuba. He's writing a letter to the 14-year-old
He's writing a letter to the 14-year-old Abu Zuba. and he's saying, "Treat our
Abu Zuba. and he's saying, "Treat our mother with respect. You were
mother with respect. You were disrespectful when you did this."
disrespectful when you did this." >> Or, "Don't whistle at the girls in the
>> Or, "Don't whistle at the girls in the neighborhood. That was very rude and it
neighborhood. That was very rude and it was unkind." You know, things like that.
was unkind." You know, things like that. Pay attention in school. Don't uh play
Pay attention in school. Don't uh play around and uh you know, make trouble in
around and uh you know, make trouble in school. Pay attention and learn what
school. Pay attention and learn what you're supposed to learn.
you're supposed to learn. >> Why do you think he was writing on
>> Why do you think he was writing on those?
those? >> I think he was deeply insightful. I
>> I think he was deeply insightful. I think he was very very intelligent and
think he was very very intelligent and talented and I think that like many
talented and I think that like many intelligent people they constantly
intelligent people they constantly reflect on their own lives
reflect on their own lives >> just to make them to make to make
>> just to make them to make to make themselves better.
themselves better. >> Exactly. Plus he had nobody to talk to.
>> Exactly. Plus he had nobody to talk to. >> He's going to tell Khalik Muhammad that
>> He's going to tell Khalik Muhammad that oh I whistled at this girl when I was 14
oh I whistled at this girl when I was 14 now I feel guilty. He's going to smack
now I feel guilty. He's going to smack him in the head and say get with the
him in the head and say get with the program. We have work to do. Yeah.
program. We have work to do. Yeah. >> So,
>> So, I got a call from the analyst. He said,
I got a call from the analyst. He said, "Listen, a plane's going to arrive
"Listen, a plane's going to arrive tonight at 3:00 in the morning, and
tonight at 3:00 in the morning, and you're going to put him on the plane." I
you're going to put him on the plane." I said, "Okay." So, I said, "Uh, Zayn," I
said, "Okay." So, I said, "Uh, Zayn," I said, "Listen." His name was Zay Albadin
said, "Listen." His name was Zay Albadin Muhammad Hussein.
Muhammad Hussein. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> I said, "Zay, listen. The plane is going
>> I said, "Zay, listen. The plane is going to come and it's going to take you."
to come and it's going to take you." And he said, "Where am I going?" I said,
And he said, "Where am I going?" I said, "I have no idea, but I'm going to tell
"I have no idea, but I'm going to tell you again. You have to cooperate. You
you again. You have to cooperate. You have to.
So the plane landed. We could hear it land. It landed right there next to the
land. It landed right there next to the room.
room. And um he started crying again. And uh
And um he started crying again. And uh it came time for us to take him out. So
it came time for us to take him out. So three FBI agents and I picked up his
three FBI agents and I picked up his gurnie. It was like from the 50s. It was
gurnie. It was like from the 50s. It was made out of steel. It was really heavy.
made out of steel. It was really heavy. So we picked him up. were covered in his
So we picked him up. were covered in his blood. He's just as as quickly as they
blood. He's just as as quickly as they could pump blood into him, it was just
could pump blood into him, it was just leaking out of him. And it wasn't just a
leaking out of him. And it wasn't just a drip with the blood. It was actually a
drip with the blood. It was actually a pump.
pump. >> Oh, wow.
>> Oh, wow. >> So, it's forcing the blood into him
>> So, it's forcing the blood into him because he was losing it so quickly.
because he was losing it so quickly. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> So, it's just everywhere.
>> So, it's just everywhere. And um
And um we had to he was strapped down and we
we had to he was strapped down and we had to lift the gurnie up so it's in a
had to lift the gurnie up so it's in a standing position. so we could maneuver
standing position. so we could maneuver him onto the plane. We took him to the
him onto the plane. We took him to the back of the plane and laid him across
back of the plane and laid him across the luggage rack.
the luggage rack. >> And there was the best doctor there.
>> And there was the best doctor there. What he
What he >> he was from He was the head of trauma at
>> he was from He was the head of trauma at John's Hopkins University Medical Center
John's Hopkins University Medical Center in Baltimore, Maryland. One of the top
in Baltimore, Maryland. One of the top trauma hospitals in the world.
trauma hospitals in the world. >> They say they made they wanted to make
>> They say they made they wanted to make sure that he recovers and survives. Huh.
sure that he recovers and survives. Huh. >> Yes. He had to survive.
>> Yes. He had to survive. >> So he flew They flew him in.
>> So he flew They flew him in. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> And that's where you that's where you
>> And that's where you that's where you took him. handed him over
took him. handed him over >> and that's the last time you saw.
>> and that's the last time you saw. >> Yeah, we strapped him to the luggage
>> Yeah, we strapped him to the luggage rack and I leaned over. He was squeezing
rack and I leaned over. He was squeezing my hand and I said, "Good luck.
my hand and I said, "Good luck. Remember, you have to cooperate." And
Remember, you have to cooperate." And that was the last time I saw him.
that was the last time I saw him. >> Why were you very adamant for him to
>> Why were you very adamant for him to cooperate?
cooperate? >> Because I I had a feeling. I didn't
>> Because I I had a feeling. I didn't really know what was going to happen,
really know what was going to happen, but I I know how these guys are,
but I I know how these guys are, >> my colleagues. A lot of them were
>> my colleagues. A lot of them were monsters. A lot of them a lot of them
monsters. A lot of them a lot of them enjoyed that part of the job. You know,
enjoyed that part of the job. You know, I actively avoided that part of the job.
I actively avoided that part of the job. But I knew like when I said to him that
But I knew like when I said to him that I'm the nicest guy you're going to meet,
I'm the nicest guy you're going to meet, I was being honest.
I was being honest. He was not going to have an easy time of
He was not going to have an easy time of it
it >> if he was going to,
>> if he was going to, >> you know, stand up to them.
>> you know, stand up to them. >> So they took him to Guantanamo or they
>> So they took him to Guantanamo or they took him to a a black site before
took him to a a black site before Guantanamo.
Guantanamo. When he asked me where he was going and
When he asked me where he was going and I said, "I I don't know." That was the
I said, "I I don't know." That was the honest to God's truth. I had no idea.
honest to God's truth. I had no idea. They took him to a black site.
They took him to a black site. >> A black site is basically for for
>> A black site is basically for for listeners context is a prison.
listeners context is a prison. >> It's a secret prison.
>> It's a secret prison. >> Usually they're just one or two rooms
>> Usually they're just one or two rooms and they're in isolated countries. In
and they're in isolated countries. In many cases, the leaders of those
many cases, the leaders of those countries, the the presidents, the prime
countries, the the presidents, the prime ministers had no idea that there was a
ministers had no idea that there was a CIA black site in their in their
CIA black site in their in their country. These were handshake deals
country. These were handshake deals between the CIA director and the
between the CIA director and the intelligence director of those
intelligence director of those countries.
countries. >> Okay.
>> I am not allowed to say where the locations of the black sites were. What
locations of the black sites were. What I am allowed to say is that the press
I am allowed to say is that the press has reported extensively on the
has reported extensively on the locations of the black sites. So Google
locations of the black sites. So Google it.
it. Um they flew him to the black site. He
Um they flew him to the black site. He recovered over the course of six weeks
recovered over the course of six weeks and then in six weeks he began to be
and then in six weeks he began to be interrogated by the FBI. An FBI agent
interrogated by the FBI. An FBI agent named uh Ali Sufan
named uh Ali Sufan >> Arab.
>> Arab. >> Uhhuh. Uh originally Egyptian born in
>> Uhhuh. Uh originally Egyptian born in Egypt, raised in Egypt, naturalized
Egypt, raised in Egypt, naturalized American became a terrific FBI agent.
American became a terrific FBI agent. So Ali Ali is very was very very good at
So Ali Ali is very was very very good at interrogations. The whole FBI is very
interrogations. The whole FBI is very good at interrogations. I hate
good at interrogations. I hate complimenting the FBI. I really do.
complimenting the FBI. I really do. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> I don't like them.
>> I don't like them. >> I don't
>> I don't >> And they don't like me
>> And they don't like me >> with with your story as
>> with with your story as >> well.
>> well. >> Yeah. No, they're they're monsters, most
>> Yeah. No, they're they're monsters, most of them.
of them. >> But if there's one thing they're really
>> But if there's one thing they're really good at, it's interrogations. And
good at, it's interrogations. And they're good at it because they've been
they're good at it because they've been doing it since 1945. And
doing it since 1945. And >> so, a lot of experience with them. And
>> so, a lot of experience with them. And the way they do it is they treat you
the way they do it is they treat you with respect and you just have a
with respect and you just have a conversation and they offer you a cup of
conversation and they offer you a cup of tea or coffee or an orange or if you're
tea or coffee or an orange or if you're cooperative a piece of paper and a pen
cooperative a piece of paper and a pen you can write to your family or you know
you can write to your family or you know whatever.
whatever. And so it took a while, but Abu Zubeda
And so it took a while, but Abu Zubeda really began to open up
really began to open up >> and he and Ali would have these like
>> and he and Ali would have these like real conversations.
real conversations. Abu Zuba gave us actionable intelligence
Abu Zuba gave us actionable intelligence that saved American lives. He told us a
that saved American lives. He told us a couple things very specifically.
couple things very specifically. One was we had no idea what the al-Qaeda
One was we had no idea what the al-Qaeda wiring diagram looked like. We knew it
wiring diagram looked like. We knew it was Bin Laden and then Vaheri and then
was Bin Laden and then Vaheri and then the number three had been Muhammad Ataf,
the number three had been Muhammad Ataf, >> but we killed him in Tora Bora
>> but we killed him in Tora Bora >> and then that was it. That's all we
>> and then that was it. That's all we knew. We didn't we knew that there were
knew. We didn't we knew that there were these cells spread around all over the
these cells spread around all over the world.
world. >> We didn't know are they in touch with
>> We didn't know are they in touch with each other? Is there's one supercell
each other? Is there's one supercell that's in charge of the other cells? We
that's in charge of the other cells? We had no idea. And so Abu Zubeda showed us
had no idea. And so Abu Zubeda showed us on a paper how they're all arranged.
>> Al-Qaeda's leadership was very very smart in the way they set the
smart in the way they set the organization up. And that was so no cell
organization up. And that was so no cell had any contact with any other cell.
had any contact with any other cell. Everything went through.
Everything went through. >> Okay?
>> Okay? >> Or the next person down who we learned
>> Or the next person down who we learned was named Mkhtar. I'll get to that in a
was named Mkhtar. I'll get to that in a minute.
minute. So Ali said as an example if you wanted
So Ali said as an example if you wanted to do an attack in let's say Dusseldorf
to do an attack in let's say Dusseldorf how would you do that and he said oh
how would you do that and he said oh well I know this guy Muhammad and
well I know this guy Muhammad and Muhammad here's his phone number and he
Muhammad here's his phone number and he has a friend Abdullah and Abdullah has
has a friend Abdullah and Abdullah has access to weapons but Abdullah's cousin
access to weapons but Abdullah's cousin Rashid
Rashid has explosives
has explosives and here's his email and here's his
and here's his email and here's his address and here's his phone number. So
address and here's his phone number. So we call the Germans and we say, "Listen,
we call the Germans and we say, "Listen, you have a serious problem in Dusseldorf
you have a serious problem in Dusseldorf and here's the information." And so they
and here's the information." And so they break down the door and they grab
break down the door and they grab Muhammad Abdullah and Rashid and that's
Muhammad Abdullah and Rashid and that's it. It's done.
it. It's done. >> So he starts giving you all these
>> So he starts giving you all these information from everywhere.
information from everywhere. >> And then he told us about this guy
>> And then he told us about this guy Mkhtar.
Mkhtar. So we knew that there was this very bad
So we knew that there was this very bad man out there somewhere who went by the
man out there somewhere who went by the name Mkhtar.
name Mkhtar. Mhtar was implicated in something called
Mhtar was implicated in something called the Bjinka operation in Manila in 1996.
the Bjinka operation in Manila in 1996. So the Bjinka operation
So the Bjinka operation was a plan to hijack 14 Boeing 747s
was a plan to hijack 14 Boeing 747s >> all at once
>> all at once >> from Manila airport and to fly them into
>> from Manila airport and to fly them into buildings all up and down the west coast
buildings all up and down the west coast of the United States.
of the United States. >> Okay. One day, Mkhtar has this whole
>> Okay. One day, Mkhtar has this whole thing laid out on a table
thing laid out on a table and he decides to go out for lunch. So,
and he decides to go out for lunch. So, he leaves.
he leaves. The cleaning lady happens to come in to
The cleaning lady happens to come in to clean the apartment. She sees all this.
clean the apartment. She sees all this. She says, "This looks like a terrorist
She says, "This looks like a terrorist attack. I better call the police."
attack. I better call the police." >> Oh, wow.
>> Oh, wow. >> So, she calls the Manila police. They
>> So, she calls the Manila police. They come in. They say, "This looks like a
come in. They say, "This looks like a terrorist attack. We better call the
terrorist attack. We better call the Philippine Intelligence Service." They
Philippine Intelligence Service." They come in and they said, "Oh, this is a
come in and they said, "Oh, this is a terrorist attack. We better call the
terrorist attack. We better call the CIA." By then, Mkhtar had run. So, we
CIA." By then, Mkhtar had run. So, we knew there was this guy. We knew that he
knew there was this guy. We knew that he was the mastermind of the Bojinka
was the mastermind of the Bojinka operation. We knew that he intended to
operation. We knew that he intended to use airplanes as missiles.
use airplanes as missiles. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> But we didn't know who he was or where
>> But we didn't know who he was or where he was. Abu Zuba laughed and he said,
he was. Abu Zuba laughed and he said, "You don't know who Mkhtar is?" And Ali
"You don't know who Mkhtar is?" And Ali said, "No."
said, "No." And Abu Za said, "His name is Khaled
And Abu Za said, "His name is Khaled Sheh Muhammad."
Sheh Muhammad." We had never heard that name before.
We had never heard that name before. >> Oh, that was the first time.
>> Oh, that was the first time. >> Mhm. So, he could have been in the US
>> Mhm. So, he could have been in the US and nobody would would have known.
and nobody would would have known. >> He actually was in the US.
>> He actually was in the US. He went to college at the university or
He went to college at the university or uh North Carolina State University
uh North Carolina State University and he lived with an American family
and he lived with an American family while he was in college and then just
while he was in college and then just decided at the end of his time in the US
decided at the end of his time in the US he hated Americans and wanted to destroy
he hated Americans and wanted to destroy the country. We had nothing in the files
the country. We had nothing in the files of anybody named Khalik Muhammad. So we
of anybody named Khalik Muhammad. So we attached the Mktar files to him and then
attached the Mktar files to him and then we started the hunt.
we started the hunt. It took us another whatever it was year
It took us another whatever it was year and and two months.
and and two months. >> So you caught him or you killed him?
>> So you caught him or you killed him? >> We caught him. We caught him in a safe
>> We caught him. We caught him in a safe house in Rahul Pindi and uh
house in Rahul Pindi and uh >> where is that?
>> where is that? >> Uh it's a large city that's attached to
>> Uh it's a large city that's attached to Islamabad.
Islamabad. >> Oh Pakistan.
>> Oh Pakistan. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Um you know he spoke about he's the guy.
>> Um you know he spoke about he's the guy. Huh?
Huh? >> That's him.
>> That's him. >> My good. So he's the guy who articulated
>> My good. So he's the guy who articulated 911. He was the mastermind of 911.
911. He was the mastermind of 911. >> This guy.
>> This guy. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Huh? Born in Kuwait.
>> Huh? Born in Kuwait. >> Born in Kuwait.
>> Born in Kuwait. >> Pakistani. Born in Kuwait.
>> Pakistani. Born in Kuwait. >> Yep.
>> Yep. >> Wow. So, a lot of talent come comes from
>> Wow. So, a lot of talent come comes from Kuwait. [laughter]
Kuwait. [laughter] >> Yeah. And the food's not bad either.
>> Yeah. And the food's not bad either. >> Not bad at all. Um, so but but we were
>> Not bad at all. Um, so but but we were speaking when um during when when we
speaking when um during when when we were having coffee before we recorded
were having coffee before we recorded and he said the way was killed um they
and he said the way was killed um they shot a drone missile into him that
shot a drone missile into him that didn't have a
didn't have a >> no warhead.
>> no warhead. >> No warhead. So it didn't blow anything
>> No warhead. So it didn't blow anything around him.
around him. >> Correct.
>> Correct. >> It just gone
>> It just gone >> right through
>> right through >> right through him.
>> right through him. >> Right through him.
>> Right through him. >> And 111 was that?
>> And 111 was that? >> Oh 2 3 years ago.
>> Oh 2 3 years ago. >> Oh really?
>> Oh really? >> Oh it's recent. See now recently.
>> Oh it's recent. See now recently. >> Isn't that interesting?
>> Isn't that interesting? >> Like people have forgotten about him.
>> Like people have forgotten about him. >> Yeah. I thought it was done way
>> Yeah. I thought it was done way >> Did you mind googling that?
>> Did you mind googling that? >> 22
>> 22 almost four years ago. Yeah. It's almost
almost four years ago. Yeah. It's almost like was
like was >> Oh, so he to get away almost, huh?
>> Oh, so he to get away almost, huh? >> Yeah. Yeah. They found him living in an
>> Yeah. Yeah. They found him living in an apartment in Kbble.
apartment in Kbble. He would come out onto the balcony uh
He would come out onto the balcony uh for fresh air and we decided to
for fresh air and we decided to shoot him with a missile
shoot him with a missile uh but with no warhead on it so that
uh but with no warhead on it so that nobody in the apartment would be
nobody in the apartment would be injured.
injured. Now the Israelis would blow up the
Now the Israelis would blow up the entire city block and take out every
entire city block and take out every apartment building. But we were very
apartment building. But we were very specific about that and
specific about that and >> that's that's what I was going to get to
>> that's that's what I was going to get to like the you can do that. You can kill
like the you can do that. You can kill specific people and go after specific
specific people and go after specific people.
people. >> You don't have to kill the whole
>> You don't have to kill the whole children in the neighborhood
children in the neighborhood >> to send another another message that you
>> to send another another message that you clearly want to send.
clearly want to send. >> Even with Bin Laden, when we killed Bin
>> Even with Bin Laden, when we killed Bin Laden, he was in his house with all of
Laden, he was in his house with all of his wives and a bunch of his children
his wives and a bunch of his children and uh two of his bodyguards were shot.
and uh two of his bodyguards were shot. I don't remember if anybody was killed,
I don't remember if anybody was killed, but uh he's like shielding himself with
but uh he's like shielding himself with one of the women. He was the only one
one of the women. He was the only one that that was killed. You You don't have
that that was killed. You You don't have to just kill everybody that's out there
to just kill everybody that's out there to achieve your goal.
to achieve your goal. >> Be a little patient.
>> Be a little patient. >> But why was his body
>> But why was his body thrown in the in the ocean?
thrown in the in the ocean? >> We didn't want it to become a sight of
>> We didn't want it to become a sight of veneration. We didn't want to make him
veneration. We didn't want to make him like a saint or a martyr of some sort
like a saint or a martyr of some sort where people would go to his grave and,
where people would go to his grave and, you know, make him something that he
you know, make him something that he wasn't.
wasn't. >> Make him an icon.
>> Make him an icon. >> Mhm. It was better to just throw him
>> Mhm. It was better to just throw him overboard. So to wrap up our uh
overboard. So to wrap up our uh conversation today um why was there a
conversation today um why was there a patch on
patch on >> that's a good that's a good question you
>> that's a good that's a good question you know recently because we want to speak
know recently because we want to speak about the torture
about the torture >> but why or
obviously you've seen the patch but that's for the watcher and the listener
that's for the watcher and the listener there there's a patch when when you
there there's a patch when when you Google Abu Zuba now
Google Abu Zuba now >> uh there is a patch on his eye
>> uh there is a patch on his eye >> yes
>> yes >> like the pirate a pirates's patch
>> like the pirate a pirates's patch >> was that there when when when was that
>> was that there when when when was that developed?
developed? >> Yeah,
>> Yeah, >> honestly I have to rearch I I was
>> honestly I have to rearch I I was supposed to research this before I I
supposed to research this before I I speak to you but I didn't have time to
speak to you but I didn't have time to research. So whatever you're going to
research. So whatever you're going to say now
say now >> that's a very important question. You
>> that's a very important question. You see the passport photo on the bottom
see the passport photo on the bottom left which is the one that I was using.
left which is the one that I was using. >> Yeah. He um he sees just fine.
>> Yeah. He um he sees just fine. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Right. When I saw him in the hospital
>> Right. When I saw him in the hospital and he opened his eyes, one of his eyes
and he opened his eyes, one of his eyes was very, very pale blue. He was clearly
was very, very pale blue. He was clearly blind in the eye. So I said, uh, I said,
blind in the eye. So I said, uh, I said, "What happened to his eye?" And it
"What happened to his eye?" And it turned out that he had been hit with a
turned out that he had been hit with a piece of shrapnel in uh in Afghanistan
piece of shrapnel in uh in Afghanistan >> in the '9s.
>> in the '9s. >> So there that wasn't during the raid.
>> So there that wasn't during the raid. >> No, no, no. It was years before. And he
>> No, no, no. It was years before. And he had gone blind in that eye. and it
had gone blind in that eye. and it turned very pale, very light blue. Well,
turned very pale, very light blue. Well, the reason he wears the patch is because
the reason he wears the patch is because when he was at Guantanamo,
when he was at Guantanamo, without ever saying a word to him, and
without ever saying a word to him, and this is a war crime,
the Americans at Guantanamo um gave him a shot and knocked him out
um gave him a shot and knocked him out and then took him into surgery and they
and then took him into surgery and they took his eye out. You're not allowed to
took his eye out. You're not allowed to do that.
do that. You can't maim someone and take their
You can't maim someone and take their their eye out whether it's blind or not.
their eye out whether it's blind or not. >> Oh wow.
>> Oh wow. >> And they gave him a fake eye, a glass
>> And they gave him a fake eye, a glass eye. He refuses to wear the glass eye.
eye. He refuses to wear the glass eye. >> So that's why he's wearing the patch.
>> So that's why he's wearing the patch. >> So now he has the patch.
>> So now he has the patch. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> You know
>> You know the BBC there was something that was uh
the BBC there was something that was uh there was a report
and they just gave him money. >> Yeah. The Guardian broke the story. He
>> Yeah. The Guardian broke the story. He sued the British government.
sued the British government. >> Actually, BBC English,
>> Actually, BBC English, >> he sued the American government as well.
>> he sued the American government as well. And in the United States, it's look
And in the United States, it's look Britain pays substantial compensation to
Britain pays substantial compensation to Saudi born Guantanamoini for life,
Saudi born Guantanamoini for life, >> but that's translated from the website.
>> but that's translated from the website. So that's not the actual in in English,
So that's not the actual in in English, but you can see. So
but you can see. So >> that that context is important to your
>> that that context is important to your case and you whistleblowing the whole
case and you whistleblowing the whole thing. So, oh, I've been in close touch
thing. So, oh, I've been in close touch with his attorneys. I should say that I
with his attorneys. I should say that I am on the record. I've said publicly and
am on the record. I've said publicly and I've said it to the BBC and to the
I've said it to the BBC and to the Guardian. Abu Zuba should be released
Guardian. Abu Zuba should be released and he should be paid for what the
and he should be paid for what the American government did to him.
American government did to him. >> Why Why should he be released if he's in
>> Why Why should he be released if he's in all of that?
all of that? >> Because he was innocent of what we
>> Because he was innocent of what we accused him of doing.
accused him of doing. >> What did you What were you What did you
>> What did you What were you What did you accuse him of doing as
accuse him of doing as >> We accused him of being one of the
>> We accused him of being one of the masterminds of 9/11.
masterminds of 9/11. >> And what was he? Uh
>> And what was he? Uh >> he wasn't he was a peripheral figure. He
>> he wasn't he was a peripheral figure. He was not the number three in al-Qaeda.
was not the number three in al-Qaeda. And even if he had done things, like I
And even if he had done things, like I said, he was a bad guy.
said, he was a bad guy. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> But even if he had done the things that
>> But even if he had done the things that we accuse him of doing, he's been in
we accuse him of doing, he's been in prison for 24
prison for 24 years.
years. 24 years. And he's never been charged
24 years. And he's never been charged with a crime.
with a crime. >> Oh, still.
>> Oh, still. >> Never.
>> Never. >> So they took him to after the black
>> So they took him to after the black site, they took him to Guantanamo.
site, they took him to Guantanamo. That's where he that's where he was
That's where he that's where he was tortured, right?
tortured, right? >> Yeah. Well, he was tortured at the black
>> Yeah. Well, he was tortured at the black sites. So the black sites when he was
sites. So the black sites when he was there he was tortured and that's how he
there he was tortured and that's how he gave the information or okay so he
gave the information or okay so he wasn't willing to give information then
wasn't willing to give information then he was tortured and then he gave
he was tortured and then he gave information.
information. >> No it's the opposite. He gave the
>> No it's the opposite. He gave the information to Ali. The CIA was furious
information to Ali. The CIA was furious that the FBI was the one getting the
that the FBI was the one getting the information. So the FBI was thrown out
information. So the FBI was thrown out of the secret site and the CIA took over
of the secret site and the CIA took over and they began torturing him and he
and they began torturing him and he immediately went silent. So the
immediately went silent. So the interrogation that was given at the
interrogation that was given at the beginning was the FBI interrogation was
beginning was the FBI interrogation was did not involve torture.
did not involve torture. >> No, never. It was just a conversation.
>> No, never. It was just a conversation. >> Okay. And that's how he gave all the
>> Okay. And that's how he gave all the information and then when it when and
information and then when it when and because of the a CIA FBI thing, he had
because of the a CIA FBI thing, he had to pay the price for it.
to pay the price for it. But when you were at the CIA and that's
But when you were at the CIA and that's just giving context, you were asked if
just giving context, you were asked if you wanted to be trained for the
you wanted to be trained for the enhanced interrogation program which and
enhanced interrogation program which and then you referred to one of your uh
then you referred to one of your uh seniors and he told you not to go there
seniors and he told you not to go there cuz it's a slippery slope and you can be
cuz it's a slippery slope and you can be doing something that's illegal.
doing something that's illegal. >> That's right.
>> That's right. >> Um and that was done in the CIA and
>> Um and that was done in the CIA and there was a guide book for it. That was
there was a guide book for it. That was a policy and that was signed off by the
a policy and that was signed off by the by the White House as well. So by the
by the White House as well. So by the time he CIA got him, they started using
time he CIA got him, they started using those enhanced interrogation techniques
those enhanced interrogation techniques on him.
on him. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> Uh [clears throat]
>> Uh [clears throat] one of the most let's say the worst ones
one of the most let's say the worst ones that you can do is sleep deprivation.
that you can do is sleep deprivation. Yes.
Yes. >> Water boarding. And there was one more
>> Water boarding. And there was one more that was really bad.
that was really bad. >> The cold cell.
>> The cold cell. >> The cold cell.
>> The cold cell. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> So they would they would put you in a
>> So they would they would put you in a cold cell.
cold cell. >> Killed people with all three of those
>> Killed people with all three of those techniques.
techniques. >> Oh, no way.
>> Oh, no way. >> Water boarding as well. People can die
>> Water boarding as well. People can die from huh.
from huh. >> Actually, Abu Zubed's heart stopped
>> Actually, Abu Zubed's heart stopped during a water boarding session. He he
during a water boarding session. He he was drowning and his heart stopped
was drowning and his heart stopped beating and they revived him. They
beating and they revived him. They brought him back to life just so they
brought him back to life just so they could torture him more.
could torture him more. It's sick. And And why were they doing
It's sick. And And why were they doing that? The CIA since he was speaking
that? The CIA since he was speaking without enhanced interrogation
without enhanced interrogation techniques.
techniques. >> This was a a bureaucratic pissing match
>> This was a a bureaucratic pissing match between the FBI and the CIA. The CIA was
between the FBI and the CIA. The CIA was furious that the FBI was taking the
furious that the FBI was taking the lead. And so, and here's what made it
lead. And so, and here's what made it even worse.
even worse. Alis fun, remember when I said that the
Alis fun, remember when I said that the CIA and FBI computer systems were not
CIA and FBI computer systems were not compatible?
compatible? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> So the FBI gets thrown out. The CIA
>> So the FBI gets thrown out. The CIA takes over. They start waterboarding
takes over. They start waterboarding Obseta immediately on August the 2nd.
Obseta immediately on August the 2nd. Kind of a famous date, August the 2nd uh
Kind of a famous date, August the 2nd uh 2002.
2002. And um he went silent. He couldn't
And um he went silent. He couldn't believe that they were torturing him and
believe that they were torturing him and he went silent.
he went silent. So what they did is they went into the
So what they did is they went into the FBI computers. They pulled all of Ali
FBI computers. They pulled all of Ali Kufuan's reports out. They retyped them
Kufuan's reports out. They retyped them in the CIA computer and they said, "Look
in the CIA computer and they said, "Look what he gave us. Somebody should call
what he gave us. Somebody should call Dusseldorf.
Dusseldorf. He gave us all this intelligence. Mhtar.
He gave us all this intelligence. Mhtar. He's Khalik Muhammad. We got all of this
He's Khalik Muhammad. We got all of this today from the waterboarding."
today from the waterboarding." That was all a lie. Ali Sufan had
That was all a lie. Ali Sufan had collected that over the course of six
collected that over the course of six weeks. A very low IQ lie as well.
weeks. A very low IQ lie as well. >> A very low IQ lie. But nobody at CI
>> A very low IQ lie. But nobody at CI headquarters knew it was a lie. Because
headquarters knew it was a lie. Because the computer systems were not
the computer systems were not compatible.
compatible. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> So he was tortured and then
>> So he was tortured and then why is he getting paid for it now?
why is he getting paid for it now? Because he was illegally tor tortured or
Because he was illegally tor tortured or >> he he's being paid for it. Well, first
>> he he's being paid for it. Well, first of all, he his attorneys filed a lawsuit
of all, he his attorneys filed a lawsuit against the US government as well, and
against the US government as well, and it's been thrown out twice because
it's been thrown out twice because literally all the CIA has to do is when
literally all the CIA has to do is when they go into court, they say, "Your
they go into court, they say, "Your honor, we would love to defend
honor, we would love to defend ourselves, but we can't. National
ourselves, but we can't. National security."
security." >> Okay? So, they can pull that card
>> Okay? So, they can pull that card >> and they say, "Case dismissed."
>> and they say, "Case dismissed." >> National security.
>> National security. >> National security. It's different in the
>> National security. It's different in the UK. M
UK. M >> and so there were many times during the
>> and so there were many times during the course of his his uh movement from one
course of his his uh movement from one secret uh uh prison to another during
secret uh uh prison to another during the course of his torture that the
the course of his torture that the British helped the CIA
British helped the CIA and so he did the next best thing and he
and so he did the next best thing and he sued the British and they were found
sued the British and they were found guilty and they had to pay.
guilty and they had to pay. >> So with the with the torture program um
>> So with the with the torture program um the enhanced interrogation technique
the enhanced interrogation technique which is a torture program
which is a torture program Um just for the listeners context and
Um just for the listeners context and they can go and and look for many other
they can go and and look for many other podcasts which you speak about this in
podcasts which you speak about this in full detail.
full detail. >> You went out in 2007 on a show in ABC
>> You went out in 2007 on a show in ABC News
News >> and you blew the whistle.
>> and you blew the whistle. >> I did. Um, and you said that this is
>> I did. Um, and you said that this is happening. And then when they asked you
happening. And then when they asked you what would did you do the
what would did you do the interrogations, you said no. And when
interrogations, you said no. And when they asked you why and you gave the best
they asked you why and you gave the best answer I could have thought about while
answer I could have thought about while I was watching it, you said because you
I was watching it, you said because you you didn't like it and they said why do
you didn't like it and they said why do you disagree with it? Something along
you disagree with it? Something along those lines. And then you turned around
those lines. And then you turned around and you said because we're Americans and
and you said because we're Americans and we're better than that. And I think you
we're better than that. And I think you gave the perfect answer. I think that
gave the perfect answer. I think that answer made them very angry because
answer made them very angry because >> it made them very very angry.
>> it made them very very angry. >> Yeah. Because that was the the answer
>> Yeah. Because that was the the answer that you given was a very strong answer
that you given was a very strong answer because once you start torturing
because once you start torturing someone, they're going to admit to stuff
someone, they're going to admit to stuff that they haven't done.
that they haven't done. >> Exactly.
>> Exactly. >> And and you wouldn't know because And
>> And and you wouldn't know because And that's the thing that people fear the
that's the thing that people fear the most is being tortured. Um because
most is being tortured. Um because they'll just admit to everything and
they'll just admit to everything and then they just need to face the
then they just need to face the consequences of admitting to everything
consequences of admitting to everything that even though they haven't done
that even though they haven't done And we see those we me being from the
And we see those we me being from the Middle East I listen to those stories
Middle East I listen to those stories from the Assad's regime or the Iraqi
from the Assad's regime or the Iraqi regime Saddam's regime and I always
regime Saddam's regime and I always thought that the United States are
thought that the United States are different.
different. >> Mhm. And when us when we found out about
>> Mhm. And when us when we found out about what we're going to talk come to to Iraq
what we're going to talk come to to Iraq tomorrow as well when we speak not just
tomorrow as well when we speak not just about the invasion but we're going to
about the invasion but we're going to speak about the what happened in 2003
speak about the what happened in 2003 and what was happening in the in the CIA
and what was happening in the in the CIA about the weapons of mass destruction.
about the weapons of mass destruction. But those little things
But those little things make [clears throat] us today look at
make [clears throat] us today look at the US with a lot of scrutiny
the US with a lot of scrutiny >> and not believe that the the things that
>> and not believe that the the things that the US give us face value because
the US give us face value because they've portrayed themselves as the good
they've portrayed themselves as the good guys for a very long time.
guys for a very long time. >> But after 2001, all of these policies
>> But after 2001, all of these policies were set aside because they wanted
were set aside because they wanted short-term wins and now long-term
short-term wins and now long-term they're paying for all of the the wrong
they're paying for all of the the wrong decisions they took. and you're one of
decisions they took. and you're one of the few people who came out very early
the few people who came out very early and said what you're doing is unamerican
and said what you're doing is unamerican >> and they didn't like that at the time
>> and they didn't like that at the time because everyone was very angry with
because everyone was very angry with what has happened with with 911 and I
what has happened with with 911 and I congratulate you for being very
congratulate you for being very honorable and um you know
honorable and um you know having
having there's a word for it I'm going to
there's a word for it I'm going to search the word now um you stood up for
search the word now um you stood up for what's right and you stood up for what
what's right and you stood up for what the American values you grew up around
the American values you grew up around uh really are. And you paid the price.
uh really are. And you paid the price. You went to prison for 2 and a half
You went to prison for 2 and a half years.
years. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> Um and and you came out stronger.
>> Um and and you came out stronger. >> I did.
>> I did. >> Yeah. And and and that's very admirable.
>> Yeah. And and and that's very admirable. >> Thank you.
>> Thank you. >> And that's very inspirational.
>> And that's very inspirational. And that's really why
And that's really why when we learned about your story, we
when we learned about your story, we said we need to get this guy into
said we need to get this guy into honestly.
honestly. >> My pleasure.
>> My pleasure. >> The values that you stand for is human
>> The values that you stand for is human values before anything else. And listen,
values before anything else. And listen, the US isn't an enemy to me and not an
the US isn't an enemy to me and not an enemy to the listeners, but the
enemy to the listeners, but the policies, a lot of the policies are
policies, a lot of the policies are >> wrong, wrong, wrong.
>> wrong, wrong, wrong. >> And that's really where where we come in
>> And that's really where where we come in as a podcast. And that's really the
as a podcast. And that's really the bridge that we're trying to build. And
bridge that we're trying to build. And we're not here to say, listen, Americans
we're not here to say, listen, Americans are bad people, cuz I don't think they
are bad people, cuz I don't think they are. And I think and I told you that
are. And I think and I told you that before a a lot of American most American
before a a lot of American most American people are good people
people are good people >> but the sometimes people in in power and
>> but the sometimes people in in power and when we spoke about the Mossad influence
when we spoke about the Mossad influence and he spoke about the apex influence
and he spoke about the apex influence and he spoke about all of these bad
and he spoke about all of these bad guys' influence they make America look
guys' influence they make America look bad in a lot of a lot of times and that
bad in a lot of a lot of times and that doesn't present good Americans like you
doesn't present good Americans like you John and and
John and and >> I'm going to stop the the conversation
>> I'm going to stop the the conversation here
here huh no no
huh no no >> oh no nobility Nobility. There's another
>> oh no nobility Nobility. There's another word for it as well.
word for it as well. >> Spelling.
>> Spelling. >> Really?
>> Really? >> G E N E R.
>> G E N E R. >> No, it's not generous. Generosity.
>> No, it's not generous. Generosity. >> Not generosity. Um.
>> Okay. Fine. Well, I I'll give you the Anyway. Um, we're going to continue the
Anyway. Um, we're going to continue the convers. Huh?
convers. Huh? >> Okay. We're going to chivalry. That's
>> Okay. We're going to chivalry. That's the word.
the word. >> Chivalry. Excuse me. Thank you for that.
>> Chivalry. Excuse me. Thank you for that. And I think that's that sets that's what
And I think that's that sets that's what makes humans different than animals.
makes humans different than animals. >> Um is they're not driven by fear.
>> Um is they're not driven by fear. They're driven by values and morals.
They're driven by values and morals. >> So thank you for for accepting the
>> So thank you for for accepting the invitation.
invitation. >> Thank you for
>> Thank you for >> people can go and people can go and
>> people can go and people can go and listen to your story. Um you've you've
listen to your story. Um you've you've been on Tucker Carlson. You've been on
been on Tucker Carlson. You've been on Joe Rogan. You've been on many other
Joe Rogan. You've been on many other podcasts and you have the a book. But
podcasts and you have the a book. But have you have you spoken about the story
have you have you spoken about the story on a in a book or have you not?
on a in a book or have you not? Yeah, I I I
Yeah, I I I touch on it in my first book, which I'm
touch on it in my first book, which I'm sorry to say is out of print now. Uh but
sorry to say is out of print now. Uh but I published another book with one of the
I published another book with one of the Guantanamo guards. We each wrote half
Guantanamo guards. We each wrote half called uh The Convenient Terrorist.
called uh The Convenient Terrorist. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Uh but I'm I'm going to I'm going to do
>> Uh but I'm I'm going to I'm going to do it right in my next book.
it right in my next book. >> What's the slogan of this book? I
>> What's the slogan of this book? I remember the slogan. It was a cool,
remember the slogan. It was a cool, >> you know, at at first it was u Abu Zuba
>> you know, at at first it was u Abu Zuba and the weird wonderland of America's
and the weird wonderland of America's secret wars and they changed it to two
secret wars and they changed it to two officers
officers stories of
stories of CIA lies
CIA lies >> something something.
>> something something. >> No, there was a different book. I
>> No, there was a different book. I thought they were talking about the one
thought they were talking about the one that um how you used your CI that was
that um how you used your CI that was the second one that was doing time like
the second one that was doing time like a spy. How the CIA taught me to survive
a spy. How the CIA taught me to survive and thrive in prison.
and thrive in prison. >> Yeah, I think that I think the the title
>> Yeah, I think that I think the the title of this book is really good. Thank you.
of this book is really good. Thank you. >> And I want to read this book. Uh but
>> And I want to read this book. Uh but it's not relevant for our Middle Eastern
it's not relevant for our Middle Eastern listeners right now. But uh I'm going to
listeners right now. But uh I'm going to have a conversation with you at some
have a conversation with you at some point about that. Thank you again. We'll
point about that. Thank you again. We'll go to Schum now to eat some
go to Schum now to eat some >> Thank you.
>> Thank you. >> rice and uh fish if you like fish.
>> rice and uh fish if you like fish. >> Wonderful.
>> Wonderful. >> Uh and yeah, see you tomorrow.
>> Uh and yeah, see you tomorrow. >> See you tomorrow.
>> See you tomorrow. >> All right.
>> All right. >> Thank you. Forgot to thank you. [music]
>> Thank you. Forgot to thank you. [music] Thank you.
Thank you. >> Shout out to uh NR's brother um [music]
>> Shout out to uh NR's brother um [music] Barak for recommending this episode.
Barak for recommending this episode. >> Oh, how nice.
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