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10 Life-changing Lessons From The Longest Ever Study On Human Happiness! Dr. Robert Waldinger | E246 | The Diary Of A CEO | YouTubeToText
YouTube Transcript: 10 Life-changing Lessons From The Longest Ever Study On Human Happiness! Dr. Robert Waldinger | E246
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Core Theme
The central theme is that strong, positive relationships are the most significant predictor of long-term happiness and health, far outweighing material wealth, fame, or achievement. The content emphasizes the importance of human connection and intentionality in cultivating these relationships amidst a world that often pulls us towards isolation and superficial pursuits.
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saw a video that you made it punched me
in the face the reason why my TED Talks
went viral was because Dr Robert
waldinger a Harvard psychiatrist and
director of the longest study ever done
on what makes humans live happy or
unhappy lives is Ted Talk is one of the
most viewed of all time for 85 years
we've tracked the lives of 724 families
through their entire adult lives looking
at mental health physical health to see
what really keeps people happy and
healthy some of the participants donated
their brains they have we know so much
about them in life and now we get to
examine their brains most surprising
finding in the study was that it's our
relationships that keep us healthier and
happier there is research that shows
that actually people who are married men
live 12 years longer and women live
seven years longer that said it's it's
not the marriage license it's about
starting in the 1950s we stopped
investing in other people being lonely
is as dangerous to your health as
smoking half a pack of cigarettes a day
isolation can break down your coronary
arteries your joints the brain declines
sooner my mission now is going to be to
bring this science that we've worked so
hard to develop and bring it to people
in ways that they can use looking at
that research what are the factors that
made those relationships most successful
well most surprising finding in the
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very soon [Music]
who are you and
what is the mission that you're on
I am a psychiatrist I'm uh a married
father of two grown sons I'm a Zen
priest and I'm a researcher and the
mission that I'm on
is to relieve the suffering that's
optional in the world that's the vow I
took as a Zen priest
what is that optional suffering you're
referring to well there's some suffering
that's not optional right there's pain
there's there's so many things that we
can't control that hurt that that we
suffer from but then there's optional
suffering there are all the the stories
we tell ourselves about
things that turn out not to be true
things that I worry about that turn out
to amount to nothing um
um
Mark Twain had a wonderful quote that I
love he said some of the worst things in
my life never happened and and that's
the optional suffering that we're
talking about the all the ways that we
imagine things that make us suffer a
great deal
so let's go down those two paths
psychiatrist and Zen priest what does it
mean to be a psychiatrist what does that
mean practically in terms of your work
it means working with people who are
struggling with
mental illnesses with conditions for
which we have help and some of the help
is medication some of the help it's talk therapy
therapy um
um
I became fascinated by how the mind
works that was what was most exciting
for me when I was a medical student
and I realized that it was going to keep
me interested most of my career and it
has because everybody's so different I
mean I realized that if you treat one
case of high blood pressure you sort of
know what the next one's going to look
like but when you talk to a new person
it's never the same as the person you
talked to last week so being a
psychiatrist for me is getting to take
deep Dives
into people's life experience
there's a there's a through line here to
the third pillar of um
um
what I find so absolutely fascinating
about you and it's also the thing that
introduced me to you many years ago I
was a young man who was incredibly I
would say
I would say addicted to some degree to
work I was pursuing money at all costs
um I was that sort of typical Millennial
I think you've referenced in the book
that had his priorities and all the
wrong orders particularly at that point
I'd sacrificed so many things the stuff
that you write about that makes life so
meaningful presence I you know my
happiness was off somewhere in the
future behind some future imaginary goal
and I was sat in a room in Manchester
I think I was in a region of
I'm gonna say somewhere between 18 and
20 years old
and then I saw a video that you had made
a TED Talk you had done it's one of the
most watched TED talks of all time and
it was about it was the longest study on
happiness ever done it was the Harvard
study of adult development I think it's
called and it
it punched me in the face
and it punched me in the face because
I've never forgotten it and I've talked
about it frequently you know every
quarter or every couple of months since
then but it punched me in the face
because it made me confront something
that I think
I knew at some deeper level
I was maybe getting wrong and that was
the nature of what really makes us happy
as humans yeah um
um
can you tell me about the Harvard study
of adult development what what the aim
of it was and how you in particular got
involved with it sure
um the study is the longest study of
human life that's ever been done as far
as we know of the same people going
through their entire adult lives that's
what's so rare about it most research is
snapshots in the moment or over two
weeks or a month so this is over 85 years
years
724 families it was started in 1938 it
started as two studies that actually
didn't know about each other one was a
study of Harvard college students 19
year olds young men who were thought by
the Deans to be fine upstanding
specimens and this was going to be a
study of normal development from
adolescents into young adulthood I mean
now we smile because you know if you
want to study normal development you
study all white males from Harvard you
don't do that it's so Politically
Incorrect but at that time that's what
they were doing and the other study was
started at Harvard Law School by a law
professor and his wife a social worker
who were interested in juvenile
delinquency and they were particularly
interested in how some children from
really troubled backgrounds managed to
stay out of trouble and stay on good
developmental paths like how how could
that be what were the conditions that
allowed these young people to thrive
so they chose boys from the city of
Boston in 1938 whose families were known
to on average five social service
agencies for domestic violence parental
mental illness physical illness
and they studied all those boys again
looking at what makes people thrive and
so both of these studies
were studies of good normal development
instead of studies of what goes wrong
most of what we study is what goes wrong
so that we can help people
so these were Radical in that sense and
then nobody expected the studies to last
more than five or the most ten years
and the founders of the study would
never have dreamed that you and I would
be talking about this study today and
the fact that we're still collecting
data even as we speak
from the children of all of these
you're still collecting data from the
children of the participants yes and are
the founders of the studies still alive
oh no they're long gone
um I'm the fourth director
um wow
and the third director was my teacher
when I was a medical student he lectured
to my class about this study of men who
were then in their 50s and I thought
this is amazing and then about 15 years
later he took me out to lunch one day
and said how would you like to inherit
this study and I was flabbergasted but
very excited to be able to do it what
was the study aiming to to answer
it was looking at the big domains of
life it was looking at mental health
physical health work life and
relationships and
what the study has done is looked at all
of those same domains over and over
again year after year for 85 years
what's exciting for me about it is that
we've changed our methods so initially
there were interviews and medical exams
and people went to their homes and
talked to their parents well now we draw
blood for DNA I mean DNA wasn't even
imagined in 1938 we put people into MRI
scanners and watch their brains light up
when we show them different kinds of
images and you know that was that would
have been science fiction to scientists
in 1938 so what I love is we're studying
the same subjects but we're studying
them using very different methods over time
time
I read that some of the participants of
the study that have passed away
have donated their brains
they have we have about 30 brains
sitting on shelves in a laboratory at
Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston
and and what's rare about them most
brains are collected because there was a
big problem in life for example Dementia
or a brain tumor or something these are
normal brains and so
what's rare is that these are brains
about which we know what their life was
like when they were 20 years old when
they were 30 years old
we know so much about them in life and
now we get to examine their brains
so this study you became the director of it
it
um let's start top level then how did
this study sets out to answer some of
the big questions in life the most
important things about what makes us
happy what keeps us healthy socially
healthy physically healthy you've got
the longest study of of humans that
anyone thinks has ever been done you've
been studying them for decades upon
decades looking at that research and
being a first party to all of that
it's very much made me take care of my
own relationships so because the biggest
most surprising finding in the study was
that it's our relationships that keep us
healthier and happier
you know I'm a Harvard Professor I could
work non-stop until I drop dead I mean
that's just the way Academia works
and what I realized was particularly
once my kids weren't there pulling me
away to go take them somewhere or do
something with them that I could just
work all the time and so what I've
started doing is to be much more
intentional about calling my friends
about saying let's go for a walk let's
go out to dinner let's make sure we get
together I never would have done that
before particularly as a man I think
women are much better my wife is much
better at calling friends on the phone
at making sure they get together I had
to teach myself to do that I had to make
myself do it I had to take my own
medicine if you will based on what I was
studying in my work life
what do we what do we get wrong about
the the subject matter of Happiness like
if you were to ask those participants
what they thought would cause happiness
in their lives or you were to ask I
don't know a millennial what are the
answers that we say and how wrong are we
and are we good at knowing
someone asked me this yesterday at an
event they put their hand up and they said
said
we're talking about remote working and
this whole change disruption that's
happened in the workplace and they put
the hand up I think they're a CEO and
they said do my employees actually know
what they want
and it was a really curious question I
ended up answering and this is maybe a
little bit controversial but I ended up
answering that most of us don't know
what we want in most facets of our life
yes and we're bad at knowing what's
going to make us happy I'll give you an
example and it's in the book
um there was a study in the city of Chicago
Chicago where
where
they were studying commuters people who
were about to get on the train and take
the train to work like they did every day
day
and so they they took a random sample of
people in one group and they were
assigned to do what they always do on
the train it could have been listening
to music or reading the news on their
phone whatever they did the other group
randomly was assigned to talk to a
stranger on the train which none of them
had ever done
and they asked them beforehand how much
do you think you're going to like this
assignment we've just given you and the
people who were assigned to talk to
strangers said I'm not going to enjoy
this afterwards after they completed
their assignments the people who had
talked to strangers were much happier
than the people who had done their usual
staying on their phones or reading the
newspaper so it's an example of how
we're not so good at knowing what's
going to make us happy and particularly
when it comes to connecting with each
other that there's something about these
kind of small conversations that we can
have with strangers or even with someone
we barely know that turn out to be very
energizing more of the time than not but
we're always afraid we're afraid
someone's going to think we're strange
if we strike up a conversation or we're
gonna get stuck talking to someone who
who we don't like
but what we find is that that the
culture gives us these messages about
what will make us happy that turn out
not to be the truth
um a lot of the messages are about
consumerism you know we're told if you
buy this car you're going to be happy if
you you know if you serve this brand of
pasta you're going to have Blissful
family dinners you know and even though
we sort of know that this isn't the
truth the the advertisements really do
inculcate this sense that if we consume
the right things that will will be happy
and what we know from from our research
and many other studies is that's just
not so
um and that these these connections with
each other actually do make us happy
I mean for example you and I are talking
now and your questions and your interest
in my work is actually energizing for me
it's actually making me happier than
when I walked in the door today why
I think there's something about
wanting to be seen like you're actually
saying I want to know you I want to know
what's going on with you and and that
there's something about that that that
makes us feel like we belong that makes
us feel like we're connected and so what
we notice and and what we talk about
in the book is this idea that
uh that when when we actually are
curious about another person it's giving
them a gift it's giving them a way to be
seen a way to tell about themselves that
we all really yearn for at some level or
almost all of us do
and so it's something we can give to
each other every day
when you
compare and contrast the two lists list
a which says what we think we want and B
what your study on happiness has shown
that actually leads to
happiness however we Define it what are
the things just in order that we're most
probably the three big ones we're most
wrong about fame fame and wealth yeah
and badges of achievement if I win this
prize right uh if I if I get to be CEO
that kind of thing
um and because the culture tells us all
day long that these will make us happy
and because they're measurable I think
one of the things you know if you think
about Fame I mean it's likes it's how
many downloads of a podcast it's how
many people read a book right
and it's measurable it's quantifiable
wealth of course is quantifiable and
achievement but what we know is that
those things don't do it now meaningful
work can make us happy can be fulfilling
that's different from getting the prize
getting the badge foreign
foreign
by contrast you can't measure
relationships they're they're kind of
messy and you know complicated and and
and they're often full of ups and downs
and conflicts
um and so so you you can't quantify it
you can't hold on to it it's always
changing and so by contrast these these
relationships that actually turn out to
make us happy are not you can't get your
hands around them as easily as you can
you can get your hands around these
these these things you can kind of grab
for these shiny brass objects you can go for
for
so why do we why do we you know outside
of the media influence why are we do we
have or sort of proclivity to strive for
things like Fame is there like an
evolutionary basis for wanting to be
famous or rich or
High status I guess
can I get into zen a little bit of
course you can please okay there's a
writer named David Loy Loy who writes
about this and and I think he's really
on to something that
in Zen philosophy that if you really
look for the self if you sit down on a
meditation cushion and you look and I
look for Bob like who's Bob I can't find
him I can't find a me anywhere I can
find a swirl of thoughts and
ever-changing Sensations coming from my
body and but I can't really find a fixed
thing that I call Bob and that if at
that what David Lloyd argues is that all
of us at some level know this that there
isn't really a fixed self that's going
to go on through time and it's going to
last after I die and that it's at some
level scary
to know that right and what David Lloyd
argues is that many of us are grabbing
for things like wealth and fame and
dominating the Earth and dominating each
other in this kind of wish to make
ourselves feel more real more permanent
more fixed like we really exist
and I think he's right I think it's
something think about all the ways you
know I think about all the ways I've
been preoccupied with you know am I
going to be remembered when I'm gone
well I'm probably not you know 50 years
from now nobody's gonna really remember
who I was
and if I really let that sink into my
bones that's scary and so I'd I'd rather
write a book with my name on it I'd
rather you know endow a building that'll
keep my name on it for a while until the
building falls down do something that
makes me last longer that makes the the
Bob self feel more real so that's the
that's the Deep Zen dive that I didn't
mean to take you on but but that's I
think for me the most helpful
explanation at why we all myself
included get preoccupied why these buy
these Badges of achievement if you will
with that comes a ton of suffering right
the desire to be permanent yeah and
significant and to compare ourselves
because with that comes comparison and
we know that when we compare ourselves
to others more frequently during the day
we are less happy even if it's a
positive comparison I.E we're doing a
downward comparison even it's a even if
it's a positive comparison
because there's always the threat of
falling short you're deciding to play a
game which is
yeah it's like a psychological decision
to play a game which sometimes you'll
win but sometimes you'll
you'll lose exactly it's better not to
play the game of comparison altogether
well what I find is when I put the
comparisons aside which I can sometimes
I'm so much more at peace
um you know when someone says to me do
you know that so and so got this many
views or so and so you know had this
many likes on social media I can feel a
little part of myself get anxious or
close off or or start making that that
comparison that that
almost physically hurts a little bit and
when I let that go if I can just sit and
and look at a tree for five minutes I
get a sense of equanimity that I can't
get when I'm doing these small
comparisons the brain engages in these comparisons
comparisons
um quite naturally you know it's trying
to make
snap decisions so it doesn't have to
expend too much energy about the value
of things and what things mean so it
kind of Compares One thing to another
I've read about the studies in
restaurants where they add an expensive
stake to the menu and now because
there's a really expensive one people
will assume that the low price stake is
not good and they'll avoid that one
they'll go for the middle one yeah their
decision changes based on the the frame
in which they see the options or the
choice and it's the same with humans
we're trying to figure out the value of
ourselves by snap comparisons when you
hear about these things that the brain
is doing these like comparisons you go
why does the brain hate me
exactly exactly the other thing is when
I look at the animal world I think you
know think about all the ways that we
get preoccupied with do I look right or
you know do am I dressed right or have I
achieved enough right and then I look at
birds and I think I bet they're not
showing up worrying about those things
and what a what a relief what a what a
wonderful thing not to be worried about
those things and I do find that this
practice of mine can get me there some
of the time not all the time but some of
the time I used to you know I used to
wonder on that point of like why why
does the brain hate me I know the brain
doesn't hate you like I used to wonder
with weight loss for example until I sat
here with dietary experts why when I
have some sugar
I then get sugar Cravings yeah and they
explain to me that your brain is
actually on your side it's trying to
help you to survive once upon a time
when we didn't have fridges and
supermarkets and ubereats and whatever else
else
coming across some sugar was a would
Advance your chances of survival it
would give you energy Etc and even with
the comparison it's a tool that helps me
make quick decisions my brain doesn't
hate me but the world we live in was not
designed for my brain exactly I wasn't
supposed to be able to look at a billion
people on a glass screen and so the
suffering is really a byproduct of a
changing world not a not a brain that
hates you and I see that throughout your
work is the world has changed to make us
unhappy in several ways yes what do we
do about that we can't leave the world
no we can't leave the world and and the
world is always going to keep changing
and so for example if we sometimes we
can we can demonize screens and we can
demonize the digital Revolution that's
not going away you know and so really
it's about being as adaptable as we can
but I think for me the question is how
can we be as intentional as possible
that that our brains evolved as you're
saying they don't hate us but they
evolved in certain ways and so they need correctives
correctives
similarly the digital world has evolved
in certain ways and so
the digital software
is designed digital media is designed to
grab our attention and hold it to
exploit that right to exploit that brain
so then how can we be intentional enough
to turn away from that software when we
need to right when we need to turn
toward each other it'll need to have
real time
contact with each other that's so
nourishing emotionally and
psychologically how can we keep from
going down the rabbit hole that social
media has evolved to keep us hooked on
not because social media is evil just because
because
that's how they've developed in order
for people to make a living
it is quite exhausting I think sometimes
I think because you're right industry and
and
um business and even the High Street if
you walk down the High Street you know
outside everything is designed to
exploit the brain you like the shops are
selling sugar and carbs and or you can
go to the gambling shop and that will
exploit your brain and you know it's
dopamine response to flashing lights and
pulling that lever on the um
um
it's difficult it is difficult and and
that's where suffering comes in you know
one of the things I see as a
psychiatrist but we all see this is that
people often want to change their state
they just want to change how they feel
there's this great cartoon I like this
is there's this meditator sitting on a
cushion and there's a thought bubble
over his head and what he's thinking is
I really do want to be in the moment
just not this moment and if you think
about all the ways in which we want to
change our state by gambling the
excitement of gambling or the the sugar
high we get when I when I get some
delicious ice cream or you know that
it's a way of changing that kind of
sense of malaise that comes over us
moment to moment
and I think one of the things we can do
instead is simply be present for that
malaise and then watch it pass which it
does eventually right so basically by
and large we're trying to get rid of
some of the Less Pleasant experiences of
our momentary life but they'll pass all
by themselves if you just pay attention
does that require this thing called
discipline yeah it does if we come to
watching and not grabbing on for the
next thing to make my feeling go away
I was um I was reading through the
chapter in your book about time and
attention and death
um cheery right yeah it's one of the
subject matters that I'm really
compelled by and I I've actually been
writing a lot in my upcoming book about
the topic of death and the order in
which I wrote was
um I started by talking about time and
and death because I think they're sort
of intrinsically linked to understand
the importance of time you need to
understand that you are gonna die which
I don't think many humans really
understand and then I was going to
deliver some time management techniques
in my book because I thought right I've
I've set up the conversation that time
is important so now give the reader some
time management techniques I've
researched all the time management
techniques I looked at the ones that I
use and I realized there were thousands
of them now there's thousands of them
for the same reasons that there are
thousands of fad diets
because none of them work
unless you have this thing called
discipline yeah and this is what you
know as a Zen priest you know it's all
well and good knowing the techniques
about meditation but if you can't have
the restraint to not get on ubereats at
1am in the morning and order that KitKat
right because you don't have the
discipline it doesn't matter I can know
it but doing it is another thing right
my question is about discipline
how how does one
even if you're looking at your own life
where does one find that discipline
you know often it's it's not the Nancy
Reagan strategy of just saying no right
you know if you think about that that discipline
discipline
can't just involve saying no it has to
involve having something to turn toward
and I think that's where we may be able
to help each other find things so you
know if you if you don't want to order
the KitKat on ubereats right what could
you do instead that that might help that
might feel okay
um and I think it's that you know if if
we think about Alcoholics Anonymous
the one of the reasons why it works is
it doesn't just say don't drink
it gives you a whole social network of
people to support you and it gives you
activities to do and people to be with
every hour of the day right and so what
it does is it gives you something to put
in place of that drink that you want to
reach for and even so it's really hard
and so I think what what we need to say
is let's put in place some things to
help us manage so that we don't reach
for the candy when we're trying to lose
weight right but when our body is just
saying I gotta have it and one of those
things which you write about and you've
seen I've seen in the study is as you
said earlier is connections and
relationships yeah how important can you
quantify to me the importance of having
a romantic partner in your life
as it relates to health outcomes well
unfortunately I can and because I I just
want to say that you do not need a
romantic partner to get these benefits
because some people have said to me well
if I don't have a romantic partner
should I just walk in from the bus now
and end it all right no no it's fine
it's fine not to have a romantic partner
but there is research that shows that
actually people who are married
uh men live 12 years longer on average
if they're married and women live seven
years longer on average if they're
married this is some studies in the
United States
um that said it's it's not the marriage
license it's about an intimate
connection and you can have an intimate
connection with somebody who's not a
romantic partner could be a good friend
could be a sibling could be a an adult
child uh so many things you know so many
ways to have this
what we think is that everybody needs at
least one person to whom they feel securely
securely attached
attached
um our original participants in our
research at one point we asked them
who could you call in the middle of the
night if you were sick or scared list
everybody and most people could list
several people that they could call but
some people couldn't list anyone and
some of those people who couldn't list
anyone had romantic partners
yeah so you can be lonely in a romantic
partnership right you can be isolated
uh in an intimate relationship
so all that is to say that it is really
the quality of a secure connection that
we're talking about that we think
everybody needs at least one of in the
world to get these kinds of benefits
what is the physiological or spiritual
or Zen reason why
um having a intimate relationship with
at least one individual is causing us to
live longer yeah
so there are a lot of theories about
this but the best theory for which
there's some good data has to do with
stress the idea that good relationships
actually help us manage stress and help
us manage negative emotion
so you know stress happens all day long
right and like if I if I leave here in
something upsetting happens my body will
literally change my blood pressure will
go up my heart rate will increase I
might start to sweat right that's normal
the body goes into something called
fight or flight mode we're supposed to
be able to do that because we want to
prepare to meet a challenge you know
evolutionarily it's a good thing but
then when the stressor is removed the
body's meant to return to equilibrium
you know so if I have something
upsetting happen and I go home and
complain to my wife I can literally feel
my body calm down you know if you have a
friend you can call and you can talk
about what was upsetting you can
literally feel that return to
equilibrium what we know happens is that
people who are lonely people who are
socially isolated don't have that and
what we have been able to demonstrate is
that they stay in a kind of fight or
flight mode so higher levels of stress
hormones circulating like cortisol
higher levels of inflammation
and and that's how
um we think we're pretty sure that
isolation loneliness or toxic relationships
relationships
through stress can break down your
coronary arteries can break down your
joints can make it more likely that
you'll get type 2 diabetes so that's how
the same mechanism can affect lots of
different body systems
and stress is really intrinsically
linked to poor nutrition right
so if I'm stressed I'm more likely to
reach for the KitKat exactly exactly
you're more you're more likely to go to
the casino or to place that bet or buy
short-term decisions and not delay
maybe explains why
men live less long as well because they
are less likely to
open up according to the data and be
vulnerable and
and therefore that stress is not
um reduced by the insulating effect of
having supportive relationships
that's right they are less likely to
open up in fact when they've done
studies of how couples argue with each
other they videotape them what they see
is that men are more likely to withdraw
during an argument and women are more
likely to pursue to say look I want to
talk about this and the man is likely to
kind of clam up and literally sink back
in his chair and and so we feel attacked
yeah exactly exactly exactly yeah yeah
yeah and so so it literally involves a
process of learning sometimes for many
men to to learn to to say it's okay and
one of the things we know is that men
often have an aversive physiologic
reaction during arguments that make them
want to withdraw
um so that so that the same kind of
fight-or-flight mode for men make them
want to may make them wanna
hang back and for women may make them
want to engage
and that that's a little bit trickier
the science is a little trickier in that
regard but there's some idea that that's
part of what's what goes on
for us gender wise I understand how men
might end up in that situation from
maybe watching movies or I don't know
stereotypes that are portrayed in media
of what a man is right but are we also
inheriting that from our parents oh yes
absolutely we get socialized all the time
time
um in fact there's some research
on adolescent boys
and the research suggests that younger boys
boys
have close friends and they they
emotionally confide in each other and
then as those teenage boys get older
they stop doing that
and there's some idea that it's not
considered manly to do that so the boys
stop doing it the girls continue to do
it because they've been socialized that
it's okay that it's feminine it's
perfectly reasonable for a girl and a
woman to confide in other people whereas
manly men don't do that and that's
that's one of the stereotypes of the in
the ways that we're raised that
hopefully is subsiding
that there are more ways to feel like a
real boy a real man that include
emotional engagement with other people
what is the cost then on the other side
of the coin what is the cost of um of
being lonely I was reading some studies
I think maybe similar to the ones you
described about the
gradual decay of connection that's going
on in the world so we're getting
lonelier and lonelier as a as a species yes
yes
um have you seen that in your studies
over the years you've seen as you ask
these participants how many people
they've got to turn to in that moment of
Crisis are you seeing a decay in the
amount of people they think they can
call it to him in the morning
we haven't seen that decay but there are
many other studies that have and in fact
there's a sociologist named Robert
Putnam in at Harvard actually who wrote
a book in the 80s called bowling alone
in which he studied what he called our
investment in Social Capital like how
much do we join clubs go to churches and
mosques and synagogues how much do we
invite people over to our homes and what
he found was that starting in the 1950s
all of those indices dropped off we
stopped investing in other people and it
seemed to coincide in the U.S with the
introduction of Television into the
American home and then he went back in
the early 2000s and did the same survey again
again
all of those parameters had dropped off
further so what he's shown is that we're
becoming much more isolated certainly in
the United States but also in the UK and
in the developed World particularly and
it seems to have a lot to do with social
Mobility it seems to have a lot to do
with digital media and forms of
entertainment many different causes but
the the net effect is that we are
becoming more isolated and to your
question there's an investigator
Julianne Holt lundstad who who studies
loneliness and what she has estimated
is that being lonely is as dangerous to
your health as smoking half a pack of
cigarettes a day or of being obese
and so what we know is that there are
these very real concrete effects of
social isolation and loneliness that
that damage us as we go through adult
life I've read that there was a I read a
new book that there was a link without
simers as well yes there is that the
brain declines sooner
and the onset of Alzheimer's is earlier
in people who are lonely
you're twice is more likely to develop I
believe that that was in the um
marmalade trust study said you're twice
as likely to develop Alzheimer's if
you're lonely
it could be and we think that has to do
with stimulation of brain Pathways so
the thing that that makes relationships
a little scary and risky because people
are unpredictable it's also the thing
that stimulates our brains so when I
came in here you and I had never met so
I was going to talk to you I didn't know
what you'd be like right I didn't know
what the questions would be like but
that's good for my brain because you've
got my brain running on a lot of
different circuits and that's
stimulating my brain circuits that's a
good thing you I think are preventing me
from becoming demented earlier so thank
you very much you're welcome yeah
are we are we good at understanding you know
know
I think I think back to that kid me sat
in that room in Manchester just
absolutely focused on building a
business and becoming a CEO and all of
those things the monetary upside
I was particularly bad at if you'd asked
me what the value of a relationship was
I would have
I would have said I probably would have
just pointed to the costs I would have
said it's gonna have time and arguments
and yeah in the research that you've
done are people good at understanding
the value of a relationship
no they're not they're not
um partly because relationships are the
background I mean if you think about it
we've we've never known the world
without relationships most of us most of
us do not live in solitude and so we've
all there have always been people around
which means we tend to take
relationships for granted and it's only
when you pull back and you look at you
know thousands of lives that we saw
these powerful effects the differences
between people who had good
relationships and people who didn't most
of us are you know it's like that old
joke about the the two fish swimming
along and the older fish swims by and
says hey boys how's the water and one
fish turns to the other and says what's
water and you know we're in this swirl
of relationships all the time that we
take for granted and so it's it's
particularly difficult for us to
understand that
this is something that we need to pay
attention to nurture cultivate
throughout life what if I'm in a toxic
relationship what if my partner is an
[ __ ] is it do I stay because of these
physiological benefits insulation from
stress or whatever it might be
um or do I dump them and go out alone in life
life
well as with so many things one size
does not fit all there's a huge amount
of discernment involved so if you think
about it one question for a toxic
relationship is how much is at stake how
much do I have invested so let's say
you're married and you have children
together then
the idea is to work really hard to see
is there a way to salvage this relationship
relationship
if only for the children but also
because the partnership could have benefits
benefits
and so what we what we would say is if
there's a lot invested then we work
harder to see is there any way we can
find ways to work out our differences
sometimes there isn't and those
relationships need to be ended but but I
want to point out that most
relationships of any consequence have
conflict and so the real issue is not
are there conflicts the real issue is
can we work out conflicts regularly in
ways that make us both feel okay about
ourselves and about each other if we
can't do that then those relationships
often need to be stepped away from when
you looked at all of the relationships
that are beneficial
um and are successful as a relationship
what are the factors that made those
relationships most successful if there
are any
one of the things people talk about a
lot is being able to be themselves to be
authentic meaning not to have to hide
important aspects of who I am in a
relationship and it's not that we're
bearing our souls all the time but but
do I have to pretend that I'm someone
I'm not that's exhausting and depleting
and so the idea is to be able to be
yourself in a relationship of any consequence
consequence
um I think the other thing we find in
good relationships is that people allow
each other to change over time I mean
we're all constantly changing we're all
moving targets and so if we can allow
each other to change and maybe even
celebrate that change the relationship
is stable and is likely to last I mean I
think about you know my wife and I are
about to celebrate our 37th anniversary
we are so different than we were 37
years ago I mean I I I had never heard
of Zen 37 years ago and now it's a big
part of my life my wife had to figure
out what do I do with this guy now who
practices Zen my wife has has developed
in ways I never expected what we've had
to do is learn about each other as we
change and and and accept those changes
and hopefully support each other in
changing which I think mostly my wife
and I have been able to do but it's part
of its luck I mean it's not like we're
such wonderful people we've just been
lucky to be able to support each other
in those changes but part of it is
intentional and and so I think that the
best relationships involve being able to
support each other in exploring new
things taking risks
um one of the things that inhibits all
of that is we have these expectations on
our partner we have an expectation of
the role they'll play of who they'll be Etc
Etc
how does that impact our chances of
being successful in relationships yes I
mean I don't know if you remember this
old Billy Joel song I love you just the
way you are in which the lyrics are
saying don't ever change don't ever I
just want you to be exactly the way you
are right now and that's completely unrealistic
unrealistic
um and so we do we have these
expectations of
who our partner is going to be parents
have this of children I mean sometimes
sometimes I'll catch myself telling one
of my sons who's in his 30s are you sure
you don't want to wear a warmer coat
when you're going outside and he looks
at me and says Dad you know I mean he
lives on his own he's lived on his own
for years it's like come on but I have
to get out of this mode of being his
parent in this in this helicoptering way
right so we're always having to readjust
our expectations of each other in order
to make relationships work
if I was your one of your kids and I
said Dad give me one piece of
relationship advice for how you and Mum
have managed to stay together for those
37 odd years but just I just want one
catch each other being good instead of
catching each other at doing the things
that annoy you right right I'm really
good at noticing when my wife does
things that annoy me and I I'm not good
at remembering oh my gosh you know she
just made this great meal uh she just
made sure that I was on time to this
meeting she just reminded me to take my
medication you know it's like all these
things that oh my God if she weren't
here I would be a mess right and so what
I would say is
it's it's really practicing gratitude
gratitude practice is really just
flipping flipping our negatively biased
Minds on their heads and and essentially
uh finding what's good what's going
right with the partnership and when we
do that there's there's usually so much
to find that's that's not wrong that's
right about the relationship and if you
do that you you find that I find that
I'm happier in the relationship even
though there are plenty of times when
it's boring it's predictable it's
annoying as any long relationship is
there's so much to be grateful for
the the other thing you talk about a lot
in this book is about the use of our
time and how we spend our Time chapter
five kind of goes back to what we're
talking about a second ago about time
management and discipline and all these things
things um
um
one of the alarming things I got from
chapter five was just how much time we
waste unknowingly
and I think maybe this is something
that's quite pertinent your Zen practice
but I think you said that we spend half
of our time in waking moments thinking
about something other than the thing
we're currently doing yes yes
and and that people that do that are
more unhappy so people that spend more
time ruminating about um
um
or with a Wandering mind as you called
it are the most unhappy yes there's
actually good research on this from a
different research group where they they
would actually ping people throughout
the day at random times and say are you
thinking about what's right in front of
you now are you thinking about what's
current and that's where they get this
uh data that says most people will
respond no I was thinking about
something else the the future of the
past whatever and and then they would
also ask at the same time how's your
mood right now how happy are you and
they found that the people who spent
more time thinking about what's right in
front of them
Were Far and Away happier so a Wandering
mind is a less happy mind
in that chapter you talk about
multitasking as well
we all think I mean I'm
you know this is one of the problems I
had when I was writing my book as I like
to play music yeah with that has lyrics
in it so it'll be I don't know like r b
music or something yeah and I want to
write at the same time and I eventually
come to learn that my brain is incapable
of doing two things so it's not actually
listening to the music
um I can't listen to music and write at
the same time in chapter five you talk
about this there's research that shows
our brain is not capable of doing one
more more than one thing at a time
that's right you're you're really
switching back and forth really quickly
and it's super inefficient it's
incredible it's an incredible waste of
energy because your brain takes a moment
to get back into gear in the thing
you've switched back to and then it's
and then it's switching off again to
something else and so what we this idea
of multitasking oh I can do so many
things at once is a Fool's errand basically
basically
Flow State kind of link to that yeah is
is it a thing it is a thing is it a good
thing yeah it is a good thing prove it
well I don't know if I can prove it but
uh well actually there's been some good
work by uh chicks at me high he's a
that's his that's his name and I can't
spell it it's this long name he's since
passed away but a very brilliant
psychologist who did research on Flow States
States
you know so I'm a meditator and many
people say to me when they find that out
say oh I should meditate and I often say
no you shouldn't you should see if
meditation feels good to you and if it
does do it if it doesn't feel good find
another state a flow state if you will
find another Pastime that for you makes
the time just fly by so
my wife is not a meditator she has no
interest in it but she loves music and
she's a an avid pianist she can sit for
an hour and just be transported playing
the piano that's her Flow State for some
people it's skiing down a ski slope for
some people it's working in a garden
for some people it's being on a soccer
pitch it's you know
um so what I My Hope for people is that
they find a flow state or maybe more
than one and that they allow themselves
those experiences of flow from time to
time where they're just in so in the
activity that time passes by
effortlessly without noticing that's so
nice to hear I'm refreshing for people
who have struggled with meditation which
I imagine is most people lots of people
and you know even on this podcast when I
have guests on they often talk about the
um positive upside of doing meditative
practice there must be so many people
that listen and go I've tried it I can't
I can't it doesn't work for me but to
know that like your hobby that thing
that just as you said that makes the
time fly by is is an equally
effective potentially form of meditation
exactly making music or painting or
whatever it might be running really
nourishing I mean it and it gives us
energy it gives us a sense of peace and
Equanimity to be in that kind of state
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get on over the last couple of how long
maybe four months I've been changing my
diet shall I say many of you have really
been paying attention to this podcast
will know why I've sat here with some
incredible Health experts and one of the
things that's really come through for me
which has caused a big change in my life
is the need for us to have these
superfoods these green Foods these
vegetables and then a company I love so
much and a company I'm an investor in
and then a company that sponsors this
podcast and I'm on the board of recently
announced a new product which absolutely
spoke to exactly where I was in my life
and that is huel and they announced
Daily Greens daily greens is a product
that contains 91 superfoods nutrients
and plant-based ingredients which helps
me meet that dietary requirement with
the convenience that hewell always
offers unfortunately it's only currently
available in the US but I hope
pray that it'll be with you guys in the
UK too so if you're in the US check it
out it's an incredible product I've been
having it here in La for the last couple
of weeks and it's a game changer on the
subject of work um
um
what did you notice in the study about
the type of work that leads to the most
happiness I've really tried to distill I
think over the last couple of years what
are the like fundamentals of what we
need in work to be happy and obviously
because of this like real tectonic shift
in how we work in digital screens and
remote working things are changing and I
sometimes wonder if we're kind of
sleepwalking into a a world of work that
we haven't properly considered just
because we can
do something doesn't mean necessarily we
should yes again that that path of least
resistance you know that um
um
so we do know some things about this from
from
um some good research coming out of
business schools they do a lot of this
kind of research on on the conditions of
work but also the Gallup organization
they did a survey of 15 million workers
all over the world
all ages all cultures
all ranks in the in a workplace
and their main question was do you have
a best friend at work
only 30 percent of those 15 million
workers had said yes I have a best
friend what that meant was I have
someone who I talked to about my life
about my personal life you know it might
be my my child is struggling with math
or it could be anything you know but
just to talk about what's going on in
your life
those 30 percent then they they did all
kinds of Assessments of those people and
talked to their bosses
they were better workers they earned
more money they were better with
customers they were less likely to leave
their jobs for a better offer because
they had people they wanted to show up
for every day
and so what many uh leaders in the
workplace think of as a distraction
socializing at work turns out to be a
hugely powerful factor for increasing
productivity and increasing wellness and
happiness at work those 70 of people who
said no I don't have a friend at work
11 out of 12 of those people said I'm
pretty much disengaged from my job
11 out of 12. 11 out of 12.
so maybe all of them nearly all of them
whereas the 30 were much more engaged in
their jobs so if you have friends you're
also more engaged in your work
there's something about those
connections that is energizing and
livening and it spills over into the
work itself
it's so interesting I sat with our head
of culture at um my marketing company
flight story and we were talking about
the kpis that a head of culture and
people should be tracking in the modern
era um and one of the kpis which I had
in my last company and we've introduced
into flight story is the amount of
communities that exist outside of the office
office
so how many football team you know do we
have a women's football team do we have
a reading club yes do we have a an are
they active communities because it's
really clear to me that like in terms of
retention satisfaction engagement in the
work if people are bound by this
community in various different ways
everything is going to be better exactly
and you people don't necessarily think
about that in the modern world of work
that you should be as an employer doing
everything you can to create a
got a new flight story football club or
a Diary of a CEO a reading club or
running club it will have huge positive
impact for of course health and all of
those things physical health and all
those things but psychological Health
and Social Fitness as you call it in the
book will go up um
um
as employees we don't think that's our
business right right we don't think it's
our business and it turns out to be so
much our business the other thing is we
most of us spend more waking hours at
work than we spend doing anything else
in our lives for most of our adult life
I mean so if you're not going to
get the benefits of good connections
with other people at work you are
missing a huge part of your life experience
experience
but it didn't used to need to be our
business so much either if you know what
I mean like we used to have
other things within Society like
even pubs have started shutting down
because the economics don't work out in
churches and these sort of social
institutions outside of the office and
then you you look at what's going on
with this kind of remote working
situation post pandemic where
the the in social institution of the
office or working around people is also
in Decline what's your view then on
remote working and what would your
message be to a CEO or leader or employer
employer
that's has this maybe potential social
pressure coming from wherever to say
everyone should be able to work from
home at all times that's a really good thing
thing
versus the research you've done that
shows the importance of
in real life human connection yeah yeah
well we don't know enough yet about the difference between remote work and
difference between remote work and in-person work we don't know for example
in-person work we don't know for example what gets filtered out on Zoom you know
what gets filtered out on Zoom you know what what aspects of emotional
what what aspects of emotional communication get filtered out we don't
communication get filtered out we don't know
know um and so we're going to learn more in
um and so we're going to learn more in the next few years because people are
the next few years because people are studying this but then the question is
studying this but then the question is what do we do and and what do we know I
what do we do and and what do we know I think we well what we know right and
think we well what we know right and what do we know well we we know that
what do we know well we we know that some things are filtered out and if you
some things are filtered out and if you think about it when when you were locked
think about it when when you were locked down and you were just on screens with
down and you were just on screens with people and then you saw people again in
people and then you saw people again in person you I felt this upsurge of like
person you I felt this upsurge of like whoa this is so great it's so good to
whoa this is so great it's so good to see you in real life right and so we
see you in real life right and so we know that there's some there's some
know that there's some there's some truncation of the interpersonal
truncation of the interpersonal experience we just don't know all the
experience we just don't know all the elements of it
elements of it um by contrast so I'm a psychiatrist and
um by contrast so I'm a psychiatrist and I do Psychotherapy that's my specialty
I do Psychotherapy that's my specialty so every day I see people in talk
so every day I see people in talk therapy if you had told me I could do
therapy if you had told me I could do talk therapy remotely that was
talk therapy remotely that was meaningful I would have said you were
meaningful I would have said you were crazy Well turns out you can and most of
crazy Well turns out you can and most of my colleagues are doing it so there are
my colleagues are doing it so there are aspects of remote work of remote
aspects of remote work of remote connection that are much better than we
connection that are much better than we thought we're having to learn about this
thought we're having to learn about this but to your question of what advice
but to your question of what advice would I give to CEOs first I would say
would I give to CEOs first I would say that the culture of of fostering social
that the culture of of fostering social connection needs to start with the CEO
connection needs to start with the CEO it needs to start with leadership it
it needs to start with leadership it can't just be something you delegate to
can't just be something you delegate to your human resources department
your human resources department um
um but then I would say also be intentional
but then I would say also be intentional structure it and that can be structured
structure it and that can be structured even on Zoom so
even on Zoom so the Surgeon General in the United States
the Surgeon General in the United States that's the kind of head doctor he's like
that's the kind of head doctor he's like the the figurehead of Medicine of Public
the the figurehead of Medicine of Public Health Vivek Murthy is his name his
Health Vivek Murthy is his name his platform has been emotional well-being
platform has been emotional well-being and decreasing loneliness particularly
and decreasing loneliness particularly in the workplace so what Vivek does is
in the workplace so what Vivek does is he has a staff meeting every week where
he has a staff meeting every week where the first five or ten minutes are
the first five or ten minutes are devoted to one staff member
devoted to one staff member talking about something in their
talking about something in their personal life that they'd like everybody
personal life that they'd like everybody else on the staff to know
else on the staff to know and people love this meeting it's their
and people love this meeting it's their favorite and it's their favorite part of
favorite and it's their favorite part of the meeting right
the meeting right they again to they get to know about
they again to they get to know about each other I didn't realize you were
each other I didn't realize you were into fencing or you were you were into
into fencing or you were you were into magic tricks or you know whatever it was
magic tricks or you know whatever it was you know people just talk about their
you know people just talk about their lives
lives and so I think what we can do even with
and so I think what we can do even with remote work is structure ways of knowing
remote work is structure ways of knowing each other better the ways that we used
each other better the ways that we used to be able to take for granted you know
to be able to take for granted you know like you come to a meeting in an office
like you come to a meeting in an office and you spend a moment or two chatting
and you spend a moment or two chatting with the person you happen to sit next
with the person you happen to sit next to and you might find out something
to and you might find out something about their life how do you do that
about their life how do you do that remotely how do you do that on zoom and
remotely how do you do that on zoom and that's what I think we have to figure
that's what I think we have to figure out in some way if we're going to have
out in some way if we're going to have any hope of having meaningful
any hope of having meaningful Connections in the workplace one of the
Connections in the workplace one of the things that has been
things that has been um really really positive about the
um really really positive about the shift we've seen in the worlds of work
shift we've seen in the worlds of work over the last two years it feels like
over the last two years it feels like people have more control on autonomy and
people have more control on autonomy and controlling autonomy is quite clearly a
controlling autonomy is quite clearly a predictor of Happiness right yes huge
predictor of Happiness right yes huge predictor in fact in the UK they did the
predictor in fact in the UK they did the first study of this Michael Marmot you
first study of this Michael Marmot you know who did this amazing study the
know who did this amazing study the white hole studies where he found found
white hole studies where he found found that the people who had more control and
that the people who had more control and more autonomy stayed healthier they were
more autonomy stayed healthier they were under less stress and they stayed
under less stress and they stayed healthier
healthier that always really really stood out to
that always really really stood out to me that this physiological Health
me that this physiological Health implications you're less likely to get
implications you're less likely to get things like heart disease if you feel
things like heart disease if you feel like you have a greater control over
like you have a greater control over your life and work absolutely and people
your life and work absolutely and people that are working in jobs that where they
that are working in jobs that where they don't feel like they have autonomy have
don't feel like they have autonomy have physiological
physiological um consequences they're more likely to
um consequences they're more likely to get disease
get disease feels very very Stark well and it it
feels very very Stark well and it it goes back I think to the stress
goes back I think to the stress hypothesis that there's something about
hypothesis that there's something about having no autonomy being confined and
having no autonomy being confined and constantly frustrated that keeps I
constantly frustrated that keeps I suspect keeps the body revved up in a
suspect keeps the body revved up in a kind of chronic stress mode
kind of chronic stress mode that then breaks it down in your work as
that then breaks it down in your work as a psychiatrist
a psychiatrist what is the like reoccurring thing that
what is the like reoccurring thing that us as humans just seem to struggle with
us as humans just seem to struggle with on an ongoing basis you talked about at
on an ongoing basis you talked about at the start it was
the start it was um
um things to do with like you know
things to do with like you know permanence or our identity whatever else
permanence or our identity whatever else are there other things I remember
are there other things I remember sitting here with Marissa peer
sitting here with Marissa peer um and she talked to me about how we
um and she talked to me about how we like fundamentally live with the
like fundamentally live with the patients she sees suffer with a feeling
patients she sees suffer with a feeling like they're not enough yeah that seems
like they're not enough yeah that seems to be a consistent theme for her what
to be a consistent theme for her what are the consistent themes in your in
are the consistent themes in your in your practice as a psychiatrist well I
your practice as a psychiatrist well I would say that sense of not being enough
would say that sense of not being enough is is a very important very common one
is is a very important very common one um and and it it
um and and it it speaks to a sort of larger problem of
speaks to a sort of larger problem of self-criticism that many of us are quite
self-criticism that many of us are quite critical of ourselves for just any
critical of ourselves for just any number of things all of us have a
number of things all of us have a different set of things we're critical
different set of things we're critical about but a lot of what I work with with
about but a lot of what I work with with people is first showing them the
people is first showing them the self-criticism because often it's like
self-criticism because often it's like the air they breathe so I come into your
the air they breathe so I come into your practice
practice and
and what is a typical symptom of someone
what is a typical symptom of someone that might come and see you and why
that might come and see you and why would they have come to see you
would they have come to see you they might come with depression okay
they might come with depression okay they might come with anxiety they might
they might come with anxiety they might come with a sense that uh life is
come with a sense that uh life is meaningless and they're not getting any
meaningless and they're not getting any joy in life they might have come because
joy in life they might have come because a spouse has died or a child has died
a spouse has died or a child has died and they're not able to cope they are
and they're not able to cope they are just finding life life isn't doesn't
just finding life life isn't doesn't seem worth living anymore and what's
seem worth living anymore and what's your process from there once they say
your process from there once they say their symptom I'm depressed let's say we
their symptom I'm depressed let's say we talk yeah um so I'm I am a psychiatrist
talk yeah um so I'm I am a psychiatrist but I tend not to reach for my
but I tend not to reach for my prescription pad right away I do use
prescription pad right away I do use medication when we need it but
medication when we need it but first we talk and often if I can help
first we talk and often if I can help somebody just to tell me what's wrong
somebody just to tell me what's wrong um a lot of the symptoms will ease
um a lot of the symptoms will ease um and yeah I mean you can if somebody
um and yeah I mean you can if somebody is is a is if it's life and death I will
is is a is if it's life and death I will often use medication right away to make
often use medication right away to make sure somebody stays safe
sure somebody stays safe but many times people will come and
but many times people will come and after two or three meetings they will
after two or three meetings they will feel less depressed because they've been
feel less depressed because they've been able to unburden themselves and to talk
able to unburden themselves and to talk about
about um something they feel is so horrible or
um something they feel is so horrible or so shameful and
so shameful and I can help them understand it and often
I can help them understand it and often normalize it a lot of what I do and a
normalize it a lot of what I do and a lot of what my research does is
lot of what my research does is normalize things and say yeah this is
normalize things and say yeah this is part of Being Human
part of Being Human um and for many people you know a lot of
um and for many people you know a lot of times one of my teachers used a phrase
times one of my teachers used a phrase that I find so helpful he said we're
that I find so helpful he said we're always comparing our insides to other
always comparing our insides to other people's outsides
people's outsides you know I'm always comparing the me
you know I'm always comparing the me that some mornings wakes up feeling kind
that some mornings wakes up feeling kind of lost and
of lost and you know like I don't know what I'm
you know like I don't know what I'm doing with my life or down with the the
doing with my life or down with the the curated lives that we see on social
curated lives that we see on social media or the game faces that we put on
media or the game faces that we put on for each other I mean you know we're you
for each other I mean you know we're you and I are trying to look okay for each
and I are trying to look okay for each other you know I'm not we're not telling
other you know I'm not we're not telling each other about our miseries right now
each other about our miseries right now because we have a job to do we're doing
because we have a job to do we're doing this interview and that's fine that's
this interview and that's fine that's good we need to do that but it can leave
good we need to do that but it can leave each of us with the impression that
each of us with the impression that other people are always fine they've got
other people are always fine they've got it figured out and I don't
it figured out and I don't so a lot of my work as a psychiatrist is
so a lot of my work as a psychiatrist is to help people see oh you know no this
to help people see oh you know no this is actually part of being human that you
is actually part of being human that you know yes when you lose a loved one this
know yes when you lose a loved one this is a trauma and that yes many people
is a trauma and that yes many people feel like they don't want to get out of
feel like they don't want to get out of bed in the morning many people feel like
bed in the morning many people feel like they can't go to work and
they can't go to work and let's talk about that let's talk about
let's talk about that let's talk about your loved one let's talk about what the
your loved one let's talk about what the loss is like and when you really take
loss is like and when you really take people through that and take through
people through that and take through people through what's hurting so much A
people through what's hurting so much A lot of times the pain will ease
lot of times the pain will ease tremendously
tremendously sometimes we use medication to help and
sometimes we use medication to help and that that's good but many times it's not
that that's good but many times it's not needed
needed what are the factors of somebody that
what are the factors of somebody that can be helped from from all you've seen
can be helped from from all you've seen in your work what are what are the
in your work what are what are the things you go well if they exhibit this
things you go well if they exhibit this this and this then I think we can work
this and this then I think we can work with them
with them and I'm saying this it's worth saying
and I'm saying this it's worth saying because I want to build the bridge we
because I want to build the bridge we all have people in our lives that we
all have people in our lives that we want to help you're right someone that's
want to help you're right someone that's struggling with something I'm not saying
struggling with something I'm not saying it's our job to help them or to be a
it's our job to help them or to be a fixer assignments and it taught me not
fixer assignments and it taught me not to be
to be um
um but it I do find it useful to know
but it I do find it useful to know um that's kind of the question I'm
um that's kind of the question I'm trying to answer here is like that
trying to answer here is like that person we all have in our lives you know
person we all have in our lives you know maybe they're struggling with something
maybe they're struggling with something maybe it's a recurring issue
maybe it's a recurring issue which ones of those can be helped what
which ones of those can be helped what are the cool factors
are the cool factors the ones who can be helped are the ones
the ones who can be helped are the ones who are willing to look inward so some
who are willing to look inward so some people
people will never go for help right they'll
will never go for help right they'll never want to be curious about
never want to be curious about themselves often because it's scary at
themselves often because it's scary at the deepest level
the deepest level who who are saying this is my story and
who who are saying this is my story and I'm sticking to it this is my world view
I'm sticking to it this is my world view and I am not going to inquire about my
and I am not going to inquire about my own role in my difficulties right
own role in my difficulties right the people who can be helped are the
the people who can be helped are the people who sooner or later get to a
people who sooner or later get to a point where they say
point where they say okay maybe I'm making some contribution
okay maybe I'm making some contribution to my troubles and if so what is that
to my troubles and if so what is that responsibility there is some
responsibility there is some responsibility some responsibility for
responsibility some responsibility for some people it's humiliating it's
some people it's humiliating it's impossible to even imagine that I am the
impossible to even imagine that I am the architect of some of my own misery
architect of some of my own misery actually many times a couple will come
actually many times a couple will come for couples therapy and if one person
for couples therapy and if one person says the only thing you have to do is
says the only thing you have to do is fix the other person you know that it's
fix the other person you know that it's not going to work because the any couple
not going to work because the any couple is has learned a set of dance steps
is has learned a set of dance steps they've developed and well you have to
they've developed and well you have to help the couple to do is look at their
help the couple to do is look at their dance steps and then modify them and
dance steps and then modify them and it's always two ways it's always both
it's always two ways it's always both people contributing to difficulties in
people contributing to difficulties in the couple just as both people
the couple just as both people contribute to what goes right it's the
contribute to what goes right it's the person who says no way am I any part of
person who says no way am I any part of the problem here that's the person who
the problem here that's the person who can't really be helped by these means is
can't really be helped by these means is the reason why sometimes we don't want
the reason why sometimes we don't want to take responsibility because
to take responsibility because confronting
confronting what the
what the inward perspective might show us as you
inward perspective might show us as you said is really uncomfortable for a
said is really uncomfortable for a self-esteem which is already on the
self-esteem which is already on the floor yes yes that's it I mean so I'm
floor yes yes that's it I mean so I'm playing defense I'm playing defense and
playing defense I'm playing defense and the defense has to be so complete so
the defense has to be so complete so think about the people who are so
think about the people who are so self-aggrandizing and have to tell you
self-aggrandizing and have to tell you with every sentence how wonderful they
with every sentence how wonderful they are who can never apologize who can
are who can never apologize who can never admit doing anything wrong those
never admit doing anything wrong those are often the people who feel the most
are often the people who feel the most vulnerable and who put up this this
vulnerable and who put up this this rigid defense because to entertain that
rigid defense because to entertain that they're fallible that they can make a
they're fallible that they can make a mistake that they can do something wrong
mistake that they can do something wrong is is is
is is is threatens a total collapse of the self
threatens a total collapse of the self and so those at many times are the
and so those at many times are the people who just can't can't at all
people who just can't can't at all entertain that question of what could I
entertain that question of what could I be doing that I might be able to change
be doing that I might be able to change to make things better
to make things better do you have a framework for how I've
do you have a framework for how I've heard you talk about how precious time
heard you talk about how precious time is in your book and about attention do
is in your book and about attention do you have some kind of framework that you
you have some kind of framework that you use to decide how to invest your time
use to decide how to invest your time like why to come why did you come here
like why to come why did you come here today versus being somewhere else you
today versus being somewhere else you know you live in Boston right yes so
know you live in Boston right yes so you've flown over to the the UK to
you've flown over to the the UK to Europe you've been doing some you know
Europe you've been doing some you know appointments in Europe
appointments in Europe how are you deciding to deploy your time
how are you deciding to deploy your time is there a framework
is there a framework there's definitely a framework
there's definitely a framework um
um for me it goes back to that vow of
for me it goes back to that vow of service so this study
service so this study I've been going for 85 years we've
I've been going for 85 years we've published hundreds of scientific papers
published hundreds of scientific papers but we published them in academic
but we published them in academic journals very technical no one reads
journals very technical no one reads those journals literally almost no one
those journals literally almost no one and so what we found was that people
and so what we found was that people were hungry for this kind of information
were hungry for this kind of information I mean the reason why my TED Talk went
I mean the reason why my TED Talk went viral was because I was speaking about
viral was because I was speaking about things that we know from science that we
things that we know from science that we haven't told anybody in the wider world
haven't told anybody in the wider world so my mission I said look I don't have
so my mission I said look I don't have that many years left in my career
that many years left in my career my mission now is going to be to bring
my mission now is going to be to bring this science that we've worked so hard
this science that we've worked so hard to develop and bring it to people in
to develop and bring it to people in ways that they can use to bring it in
ways that they can use to bring it in understandable form rather than highly
understandable form rather than highly technical geeky form which is what most
technical geeky form which is what most of my scientific papers are why
of my scientific papers are why not do something else I
because relieving suffering is one of the most meaningful things I can do with
the most meaningful things I can do with my life and given that I'm not going to
my life and given that I'm not going to be remembered 50 years from now
be remembered 50 years from now uh easing some suffering right now is
uh easing some suffering right now is the best thing I can think of to do
the best thing I can think of to do what's it doing for you
what's it doing for you it makes me feel like my life has some
it makes me feel like my life has some purpose
purpose um that and being with my family you
um that and being with my family you know my my wife and my kids and my
know my my wife and my kids and my friends
friends those are because the the question that
those are because the the question that Zen keeps asking and making me ask is
Zen keeps asking and making me ask is well what's being human about
well what's being human about I mean it's so unlikely to to be born
I mean it's so unlikely to to be born first of all right and then to live a
first of all right and then to live a life and so what why am I doing this and
life and so what why am I doing this and so that's that's the answer I have given
so that's that's the answer I have given myself it's not by any means the right
myself it's not by any means the right answer God knows it's not the only
answer God knows it's not the only answer it's just my answer and it's my
answer it's just my answer and it's my answer for now
answer for now is is life
is is life is there a point to life in your view
is there a point to life in your view the point is what we make
the point is what we make of it there there is you know this is
of it there there is you know this is the evolving of the universe the
the evolving of the universe the universe is constantly changing it's
universe is constantly changing it's morphing and changing our species is
morphing and changing our species is gonna morph and change probably be
gonna morph and change probably be extinct right every species eventually
extinct right every species eventually becomes extinct so do we matter then if
becomes extinct so do we matter then if we're going to be extinct
we're going to be extinct I don't know we matter for the moment
I don't know we matter for the moment and we matter to each other I mean
and we matter to each other I mean that's another reason why I've spent so
that's another reason why I've spent so much of my adult life prioritizing
much of my adult life prioritizing relationships and studying relationships
relationships and studying relationships because I think what do what can we do
because I think what do what can we do well we can matter to each other
well we can matter to each other what have you gotten wrong and what do
what have you gotten wrong and what do you calling I've gotten so much wrong
you calling I've gotten so much wrong where do I start but okay okay top of
where do I start but okay okay top of the list top of the list is I've worried
the list top of the list is I've worried too much about what other people thought
too much about what other people thought so one of the things I've done is I've
so one of the things I've done is I've for example I was in a job that was very
for example I was in a job that was very prestigious when I was young I was
prestigious when I was young I was director of a training program at a
director of a training program at a prestigious program for for
prestigious program for for psychiatrists
psychiatrists and I hated it I realized I and I was on
and I hated it I realized I and I was on a track to to be the chair of a
a track to to be the chair of a Psychiatry department at a fancy
Psychiatry department at a fancy academic institution and I realized I
academic institution and I realized I just hated the work I just hated being
just hated the work I just hated being an administrator
an administrator to me it was like washing dishes the
to me it was like washing dishes the same problems came up over and over
same problems came up over and over again and I would sit in these meetings
again and I would sit in these meetings with people who were obviously very
with people who were obviously very engaged and I'm glad they were engaged
engaged and I'm glad they were engaged but I just didn't care about it and I
but I just didn't care about it and I finally had to say to myself first and
finally had to say to myself first and then to everybody else
then to everybody else I don't want to do this this is not my
I don't want to do this this is not my path and it took me longer than I wish
path and it took me longer than I wish it had but I'm glad I did it and I had
it had but I'm glad I did it and I had to learn that lesson in order to you
to learn that lesson in order to you know that was one of those badges of
know that was one of those badges of achievement right and so I've so for me
achievement right and so I've so for me what I've gotten wrong
what I've gotten wrong is is thinking that the badges of
is is thinking that the badges of achievement were going to be satisfying
achievement were going to be satisfying and realizing that they're not I mean
and realizing that they're not I mean for me a conversation like this is
for me a conversation like this is actually satisfying I'd rather do this
actually satisfying I'd rather do this um and I don't even care how many people
um and I don't even care how many people listen to your podcast although I'm I'm
listen to your podcast although I'm I'm sure it's a lot of people I understand
sure it's a lot of people I understand it is right but but I don't care what I
it is right but but I don't care what I really care about is having this
really care about is having this conversation with you that that feels
conversation with you that that feels like a really good use of my time I if I
like a really good use of my time I if I make you um if I made you prime minister
make you um if I made you prime minister or president of the world no please no
or president of the world no please no no we need you okay Robert
no we need you okay Robert um and I told you to
um and I told you to redesign Society in a way that would
redesign Society in a way that would lead us all to having greater
lead us all to having greater levels of fulfillment and happiness what
levels of fulfillment and happiness what are some of the this the first things
are some of the this the first things you would do in terms of the design of
you would do in terms of the design of the way Society operates at the moment
the way Society operates at the moment what would you ban what would you
what would you ban what would you introduce and enforce
what I would introduce is massive support for children and the people who
support for children and the people who take care of children
take care of children because it's the best long-term
because it's the best long-term investment that actually they've done
investment that actually they've done some studies of this there's a James
some studies of this there's a James Heckman is a an economist at the
Heckman is a an economist at the University of Chicago who who published
University of Chicago who who published a paper in science where he
a paper in science where he analyzed hundreds of studies of when we
analyzed hundreds of studies of when we invest in in an age group where do we
invest in in an age group where do we get the biggest bang for the buck right
get the biggest bang for the buck right if we invest in zero to four years old
if we invest in zero to four years old or five to eight or all the way up what
or five to eight or all the way up what what happens when people get into
what happens when people get into adulthood who's
adulthood who's the most self-sufficient
the most self-sufficient you know who's the healthiest and what
you know who's the healthiest and what he found was that for every dollar we
he found was that for every dollar we invest in age zero to four
invest in age zero to four that we get a huge payoff compared to
that we get a huge payoff compared to every other age group that doesn't mean
every other age group that doesn't mean we shouldn't support people in other age
we shouldn't support people in other age groups but it means if we could invest
groups but it means if we could invest in children in young children and child
in children in young children and child care ah so much uh so much less poverty
care ah so much uh so much less poverty substance abuse misery down 20 years 30
substance abuse misery down 20 years 30 years down the line it's a long-term
years down the line it's a long-term investment
investment and what about on an individual level so
and what about on an individual level so if you were to give me advice then on an
if you were to give me advice then on an individual level maybe we'll put this in
individual level maybe we'll put this in the frame of one of your children
the frame of one of your children turning to you and saying again Dad I'm
turning to you and saying again Dad I'm off to live my life what is the the way
off to live my life what is the the way you would recommend I design my life at
you would recommend I design my life at a very fundamental level for it to be a
a very fundamental level for it to be a fulfilling life what do I need to know
fulfilling life what do I need to know Robert dad invest in people really
Robert dad invest in people really invest in all kinds of relationships
invest in all kinds of relationships including casual peripheral ones uh
including casual peripheral ones uh which is what you've had to do following
which is what you've had to do following your involvement in the study right yeah
your involvement in the study right yeah that intentionality of like pouring into
that intentionality of like pouring into relationships even though it doesn't
relationships even though it doesn't feel natural yeah yeah because so many
feel natural yeah yeah because so many benefits come back it's not you know
benefits come back it's not you know they see us through hard times they you
they see us through hard times they you know what they what they find for
know what they what they find for example is that
example is that um your most peripheral relationships
um your most peripheral relationships are the people who are most likely to
are the people who are most likely to find you your next job not your closest
find you your next job not your closest friends right so even these peripheral
friends right so even these peripheral relationships are of Great Value to us
relationships are of Great Value to us and that happens to be because they're
and that happens to be because they're not in your social network they know
not in your social network they know many people who you've never heard of
many people who you've never heard of and can connect you with people you
and can connect you with people you would have no other connection with
would have no other connection with I'm definitely one of those people that
I'm definitely one of those people that like has a bias towards being on my own
like has a bias towards being on my own being isolated just working on my own
being isolated just working on my own and I'm not good at watering my
and I'm not good at watering my peripheral relationships I'm like you
peripheral relationships I'm like you know five out of five at nurturing my
know five out of five at nurturing my like close relationships but outside of
like close relationships but outside of that it's like
that it's like it's like a concrete wall
it's like a concrete wall um
um I think a lot of people are like that I
I think a lot of people are like that I think a lot of people really struggle I
think a lot of people really struggle I I don't know like struggle with
I don't know like struggle with especially again we talk to everyone
especially again we talk to everyone about men struggling with
about men struggling with um social interaction because of their
um social interaction because of their inability to be vulnerable and open
does it really matter like does it really matter for me that I you know I'm
really matter for me that I you know I'm 30 years old now do I start hitting
30 years old now do I start hitting people up that I've not spoken to in a
people up that I've not spoken to in a couple of years and start asking them to
couple of years and start asking them to go for coffee it doesn't matter if you
go for coffee it doesn't matter if you don't feel a lack how do I know if I
don't feel a lack how do I know if I feel a lack
feel a lack uh just check in with yourself okay I
uh just check in with yourself okay I mean seriously the reason I say that you
mean seriously the reason I say that you know it gets to this kind of introverts
know it gets to this kind of introverts versus extroverts spectrum that you know
versus extroverts spectrum that you know some people have said well if you're shy
some people have said well if you're shy does that mean you're screwed that
does that mean you're screwed that you're you know you're not supposed to
you're you know you're not supposed to be shy and no it doesn't what it means
be shy and no it doesn't what it means is that all of us are on on some kind of
is that all of us are on on some kind of spectrum temperamentally from shyness to
spectrum temperamentally from shyness to extroversion and that some people don't
extroversion and that some people don't need many people in their life at all
need many people in their life at all and in fact having a lot of people
and in fact having a lot of people around is stressful other people get
around is stressful other people get their energy from lots of people and
their energy from lots of people and they want they want more people in their
they want they want more people in their life so there is a way that you really
life so there is a way that you really can check in and say what what do I need
can check in and say what what do I need more of what do I have enough of maybe
more of what do I have enough of maybe what do I need less of right now
what do I need less of right now and people thought a neurodivergent have
and people thought a neurodivergent have sometimes different social needs
sometimes different social needs to those that are sort of neurotypical I
to those that are sort of neurotypical I think the phrases
think the phrases um
um which goes to show that there's not a
which goes to show that there's not a one-size-fits-all approach to I say this
one-size-fits-all approach to I say this in part because I was I've hit my
in part because I was I've hit my friends up the other week and I said
friends up the other week and I said after reading your work and reflecting
after reading your work and reflecting over the years and the importance of
over the years and the importance of social connections I was like why don't
social connections I was like why don't I try and get all of my friends to live
I try and get all of my friends to live in the same place
in the same place you know yeah worth a try some of them
you know yeah worth a try some of them live one like of my five six best
live one like of my five six best friends one of them lives in Dubai one
friends one of them lives in Dubai one of them is traveling around the world
of them is traveling around the world with this baby from Tulum to wherever a
with this baby from Tulum to wherever a couple of them live up north in the UK
couple of them live up north in the UK if connection and social connections and
if connection and social connections and social ties are the insulating for my
social ties are the insulating for my health if they are you know the number
health if they are you know the number one cause of Happiness why don't we make
one cause of Happiness why don't we make an effort to try and organize our lives
an effort to try and organize our lives as communities I hit them all up I said
as communities I hit them all up I said hey guys let's all move to London [ __ ]
hey guys let's all move to London [ __ ] off Steve and I'm joking no it was like
off Steve and I'm joking no it was like you know
you know life happens they get one of my work
life happens they get one of my work over here and I yeah yeah
over here and I yeah yeah well that's what you know we're seeing
well that's what you know we're seeing this that that actually these social
this that that actually these social Fabrics are breaking down in more
Fabrics are breaking down in more traditional societies where people did
traditional societies where people did stay in the place they were born so
stay in the place they were born so India people are really worried about
India people are really worried about this in India now certainly in China
this in India now certainly in China where people are leaving their Villages
where people are leaving their Villages so in a typical family
so in a typical family there would be the grandparents and
there would be the grandparents and maybe even great-grandparents and the
maybe even great-grandparents and the the parents and the children right and
the parents and the children right and the grandparents job was to take care of
the grandparents job was to take care of the grandkids while the parents went off
the grandkids while the parents went off and worked now what's happening is that
and worked now what's happening is that people are leaving their villages to
people are leaving their villages to seek Economic Opportunity elsewhere like
seek Economic Opportunity elsewhere like in Dubai or in the big cities and in
in Dubai or in the big cities and in China and and everybody's losing their
China and and everybody's losing their social Fabric and their social role
social Fabric and their social role and so I think there's a great deal of
and so I think there's a great deal of worry about this you're noticing this
worry about this you're noticing this and you're saying wait I want I want to
and you're saying wait I want I want to knit this fabric back together I want my
knit this fabric back together I want my friends to come together and let's all
friends to come together and let's all hang out together and support each other
hang out together and support each other my wife and I are saying you know we
my wife and I are saying you know we should like like develop this old
should like like develop this old people's home as we get older and we
people's home as we get older and we should get all of our friends who are
should get all of our friends who are getting old to get together and live
getting old to get together and live together but it never kind of works out
together but it never kind of works out that way because everybody's kids are
that way because everybody's kids are moving to a different place and you know
moving to a different place and you know and so it's this question of how do we
and so it's this question of how do we how do we manage these social Fabrics
how do we manage these social Fabrics that are fragile that once they're torn
that are fragile that once they're torn it's really hard to put them back
it's really hard to put them back together but they provide so much
together but they provide so much benefit
benefit are you hopeful
are you hopeful you know are you
you know are you your reaction then told me you weren't
your reaction then told me you weren't hopeful you're right I wasn't in that
hopeful you're right I wasn't in that moment you weren't I could say just the
moment you weren't I could say just the I wanted to tell you I was hopeful I
I wanted to tell you I was hopeful I could see exactly that but I'm not
could see exactly that but I'm not um about the social fabric stuff I'm not
um about the social fabric stuff I'm not hopeful either I mean
hopeful either I mean there is evidence that sometimes we need
there is evidence that sometimes we need to feel the pain before we change but I
to feel the pain before we change but I I think there is so much influence that
I think there is so much influence that is driving us towards
is driving us towards prioritizing other things and not the
prioritizing other things and not the social fabric stuff that we've talked
social fabric stuff that we've talked about that will probably win out over
about that will probably win out over the long term I think so
the long term I think so I think so and the problem is you know
I think so and the problem is you know we evolved we think to be social animals
we evolved we think to be social animals that it was safer to be in groups and
that it was safer to be in groups and that's why you know we passed on our
that's why you know we passed on our genes more often if we hung together in
genes more often if we hung together in groups and so the problem is that the
groups and so the problem is that the way we evolved it's a stressor to be
way we evolved it's a stressor to be alone it's a stressor to be more
alone it's a stressor to be more isolated but life is taking us in these
isolated but life is taking us in these directions of Greater isolation so I'm
directions of Greater isolation so I'm not hopeful
not hopeful um and you called me out on it you could
um and you called me out on it you could see it flicker across my face and then I
see it flicker across my face and then I think I was trying to hide it
okay I'm gonna ask you the question the diary this is the question left by Our
diary this is the question left by Our Last guest for you but then I am going
Last guest for you but then I am going to
to ask for a call of optimism okay so the
ask for a call of optimism okay so the question left for you is
question left for you is if you could go back to one era in
if you could go back to one era in Civilization what era would you pick why
Civilization what era would you pick why and what
and what would your job be
would your job be oh interesting
I would go back to
to 9th century China
9th century China and I would be a Zen Monk
why because it it was the way to know about
because it it was the way to know about life in a radically different way than
life in a radically different way than uh Society was going at the time and I
uh Society was going at the time and I would just like to know I just just
would just like to know I just just because I've studied Koons and I've
because I've studied Koons and I've studied ancient Zen literature and I'd
studied ancient Zen literature and I'd just like to know what it really feel
just like to know what it really feel would feel like to be one of those monks
would feel like to be one of those monks in one of those monasteries
in one of those monasteries with a teacher and I can Envision it in
with a teacher and I can Envision it in my mind but but I'd really love to
my mind but but I'd really love to experience it so if I could time travel
experience it so if I could time travel that's where I'd go
that's where I'd go if you could only say one last thing to
if you could only say one last thing to everybody that was listening if this was
everybody that was listening if this was maybe your last day on the earth and you
maybe your last day on the earth and you know you you've got this mission that
know you you've got this mission that you've been on for the last couple of
you've been on for the last couple of decades to serve others and to help them
decades to serve others and to help them with their suffering
with their suffering if you only had 60 seconds to leave a
if you only had 60 seconds to leave a message with them based on your work as
message with them based on your work as a Zen priest and a psychiatrist in the
a Zen priest and a psychiatrist in the studies that you've done
studies that you've done what would that message be
it would be make your default setting kindness
make your default setting kindness just go back to that whenever you have a
just go back to that whenever you have a choice whenever you're at a point where
choice whenever you're at a point where you're trying to decide how to take the
you're trying to decide how to take the next step
next step make that
make that your choice why
it's what tiknot Han the zen teacher used to call nourishing healthy seeds
used to call nourishing healthy seeds that if you nourish those seeds that's
that if you nourish those seeds that's what grows if you nourish other seeds
what grows if you nourish other seeds like the seeds of power or dominance or
like the seeds of power or dominance or anger that's what'll grow
foreign thank you thank you for giving me your
thank you thank you for giving me your time today thank you for doing this
time today thank you for doing this interview I know you've done many of
interview I know you've done many of them but this one
them but this one um was except this was really a
um was except this was really a wonderful conversation thank and you
wonderful conversation thank and you know I really mean what I said where you
know I really mean what I said where you talked about seeds there you your Ted
talked about seeds there you your Ted Talk plan to the seed in my mind that
Talk plan to the seed in my mind that just grew slowly over time and it I was
just grew slowly over time and it I was never able to shake it and it's funny
never able to shake it and it's funny because I was I was a young man who
because I was I was a young man who would
would I think that was probably the thing that
I think that was probably the thing that had the biggest impact on me reassessing
had the biggest impact on me reassessing my priorities in life because you
my priorities in life because you provided irrefutable evidence from a
provided irrefutable evidence from a huge group of people with the with the
huge group of people with the with the study that you're you're the director of
study that you're you're the director of um over a long period of time that as I
um over a long period of time that as I said at the start of this conversation
said at the start of this conversation just like stared in the face of the way
just like stared in the face of the way I was living my life and because of that
I was living my life and because of that because that seed was planted in my mind
because that seed was planted in my mind I gradually nothing happens overnight
I gradually nothing happens overnight once I think through confirmation bias
once I think through confirmation bias once the seed's been planted you then
once the seed's been planted you then find things as you go on that confirm
find things as you go on that confirm that seed and kind of water it and mean
that seed and kind of water it and mean that it flourishes into being a tree or
that it flourishes into being a tree or a plant or a flower and that's what
a plant or a flower and that's what happened I realized that relationships
happened I realized that relationships and connections and investing there
and connections and investing there having a partner
having a partner um would be profoundly valuable and
um would be profoundly valuable and beneficial to my life and my work and
beneficial to my life and my work and most importantly of all my North Star
most importantly of all my North Star which is happiness and that just nudged
which is happiness and that just nudged my life in a slightly different
my life in a slightly different direction but then think about it Robert
direction but then think about it Robert I then have this podcast I then write
I then have this podcast I then write quotes I then speak to people on the
quotes I then speak to people on the internet and social media and on the
internet and social media and on the Telly and that slight nudging and that
Telly and that slight nudging and that new Direction has made me nudge other
new Direction has made me nudge other people in that direction and that
people in that direction and that started with that video for me so thank
started with that video for me so thank you because
you because um you know that's I'm sure you know I'm
um you know that's I'm sure you know I'm sure the The Dominoes falling has caused
sure the The Dominoes falling has caused other people to be nudged slightly in
other people to be nudged slightly in that direction as well and that starts
that direction as well and that starts with you so thank you so much well what
with you so thank you so much well what you've just told me is a real gift
you've just told me is a real gift because that's what I would hope that's
because that's what I would hope that's you know when we talked about what what
you know when we talked about what what my mission is right now it's it's hoping
my mission is right now it's it's hoping that this this kind of information and
that this this kind of information and these ideas move people to to to shape
these ideas move people to to to shape their lives differently and so it means
their lives differently and so it means a lot
a lot thank you so much thank you
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