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077 - Deep History & the Control System

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This discussion explores the profound implications of potential disclosure regarding non-human intelligence (NHI) and its impact on humanity's understanding of reality, particularly concerning religious beliefs, ancient history, and the nature of consciousness.

Welcome back everyone to another episode

of Liinal Frames. I'm your host Nathan

and I'm joined by my friend, colleague

and co-host Darren King, also known as

Exo Academian. It's great to be back

with all of you. The seasons are

changing. Darren, it's my favorite time

of the year uh when it gets a little bit

cooler. Saw a bear this morning. He was

kind of hanging out by the trash cans.

Uh just waiting to see what he could

find there. A tasty treat. Uh, but I've

been enjoying lots of morning walks and

the air is getting a little bit cooler

each morning and that that's good news

as far as I'm concerned. It's also

really been nice for me as a kind of as

a source of meditation. I've been very

busy with work. Uh, it's uh it's kind of

crazy in my neck of the woods when it

comes to work right now. Um, busier than

it normally would be this time of the

year. And so that's keeping things uh

hectic. The energy is a little bit

frantic sometimes. uh but also certainly

makes the days go by quickly. So I I

can't complain too much in that regard.

Uh but I've been looking forward to this

conversation. You and I have been

talking about what the show is going to

be focused on and I think it's going to

be really interesting uh as we dive into

this topic tonight. But before we get to

that, I absolutely of course want to

check in with you, see how you're doing.

I know there's been a lot happening in

your world lately and uh maybe you can

give us a quick uh preview or or summary

of what of what uh has been happening.

>> Yeah, it's always interesting and

exciting in my neck of the woods and

that's kind of ironic to say that

because I do live as you know in a cabin

in the woods and 99% of my conversations

are had through Zoom and whatnot with

people all around the world. So I kind

of get the best of both worlds in that

sense. really amazing, you know,

paradigm stretching conversations and I

feel this juxtaposition between how

fortunate I feel to be able to have the

conversations I'm having and do them

regularly with many people who tell me

I'm the one person they can have that

kind of conversation with and yet in

reflection I'm having nothing but those

kinds of conversations for the most

part. I know I've said that before, but

I I don't take that for granted. And the

juxtaposition I'm feeling recently, and

you and I talked about this in our

check-in, is just how increasingly

incoherent the world feels. So, that to

me ties in with today's topic because

we're going to be talking about

subsuming metaphysical forces that may

be influencing, controlling, watching

over, depending on how you want to frame

it, humanity and the future of our

civilization. And I think because things

have become increasingly incoherent,

crazy, almost dystopian in many people's

eyes, I think many people inevitably

start asking those big picture

questions. Where is this all going? What

does it all mean? Is the incoherence

being driven by some factors that are

beyond what we can see with our physical

eyes? These are important questions. And

what's fascinating is that while all of

that's happening, we are also at the

same time having in parallel this

ongoing societal conversation around

disclosure. Who are these beings? As you

and I pointed out before, we've got

Congress people literally calling them

interdimensional beings rather than

extraterrestrials. What does that really

mean? And how does this factor into some

of the old gods, some of the ancient

traditions, and how they framed

prehistory for humanity? And most

fascinatingly, even those Congress

people are referencing those stories and

saying somehow it's all part of the same

thing. So this is the world we live in,

Nathan. It's a bizarre juosition of

forces, and I'm ready to dive in deep

and go to the deepest levels today to

get us all to ask some of the deepest

questions to make sense of it all. All

right. Well, I'm gonna take off my

little weighty floaties and uh put them

on the side of the pool here and stretch

a little bit as we get ready to dive

into this topic. So, um, we're going to

cover a lot of territory here. Uh, we're

going to cover, you know, religion, uh,

the control system, uh, what we've been

hearing from, uh, repeatedly from folks

like Matthew Brown and David Grush and,

uh, most recently Dylan Borland, you

know, all reinforcing similar, uh, kinds

of of messages that there there is

perhaps some sort of control happening

within the world that we find ourselves.

and and examine, well, what what is

that? How does it impact our society?

How does it impact our history? And if

that control system were to be revealed,

and we colloquially call that

disclosure, how does that change our

perception, understanding of everything

that we've come to know as quote unquote

normal in human society? So, it's a lot

of territory to cover here, and I don't

know that we have any easy answers, per

se. Some of this, Darren, quite frankly,

is disturbing. So, I don't know where

you want to start uh specifically, but

that that's kind of the the overview there.

there.

>> Indeed. And I would say that one thing

we could address initially is how

religious people themselves will be

impacted because in the big picture, we

all need to address this and think about

these things and the consequences and

how we want to live our lives and which

forces we want to either consciously or

unconsciously through our actions align with.

with.

But I think we want to begin by talking

about how religious people will be

impacted specifically. I had a

conversation with Jeff Karriel about

this a week ago. And he was pretty clear

in his mind that this will be pretty

catastrophic for religion if it reveals

the full depth of what this is. Of

course, that's an ongoing question. What

degree of disclosure will we get? But

before we go there, I think it might be

worthwhile checking in on something you

mentioned, which was Dylan Borland in

terms of recent events and how what he

was talking about was striking in terms

of the current picture. But he also said

some things that cast a much deeper

frame into the deep past. Talking about,

for instance, craft that have been

discovered in archaeological digs or

artifacts from the deep past, suggesting

some sort of beings might be

cross-temporal. And on top of that, he

mentioned being a Catholic. We also

think about people like Carl Nell and

Diana Basulka that also take that sort

of metaphysical position in terms of how

they frame this. But he said some to use

the word that you used a minute ago

disturbing things about the nature of

reality. And Matthew Brown said some

things that were disturbing.

I also want to as I like to always

encourage people that there are ways to

make sense of that and still to gain

some sense of sovereignty and agency and

we're going to be talking about some

heavy things right so I would really

encourage everyone be aware of your

energy don't let yourself get small and

shrink away when you hear about these

really impacting powerful forces which

are in the scene but the X factor in it

all as I often like to say is we are

much more powerful than we realize and

in fact part of The control system that

we will discuss today is designed to

shroud from your awareness that very

fact. So, let's keep that in mind as we

proceed. But let me turn it to you

first. When you heard Dylan Borland

being interviewed on Weaponized podcast,

what was your takeaway?

>> Yeah. Well, I I mean I the biggest thing

for me was just the courage that that

he's uh exhibiting coming forward and

and you know putting his face out there,

his name out there, his testimony

obviously in in the house was really a

big deal. Um but you know, he's he

doesn't really hold a whole lot back

here. That said, I I see I saw a lot of

uh sort of carefully worded statements

that he made alluding to the fact that

there there was a great deal more that

he can't say. But behind all of that was

a conviction that he exhibited in that

interview uh conversation with Jeremy

and George. I mean this is a this is a

man just like we've seen before with

other other whistleblowers full of

conviction that what he has experienced

uh points to the clear reality of this

NHI presence among us and strange things

that that have happened in the world uh

have a deeper explanation than we might

uh maybe have been conventionally taught

and and that has taken a toll on him as

I think it would on anyone And so it

it's uh it was very powerful. You know,

it it there are times where you're

listening to it and you're just kind of

like I mean it it hits you in waves and

this is you know my my own personal

experience with with this conversation

broadly since we started having it many

years ago is that there there is a

certain level for me of intellectually

understanding hey this could be a

reality. you know, there's a lot of

evidence, there's a lot of anecdote.

This could be a reality. And then you

continue to have these punctuated

moments. you you know your David Gush

moments, your uh your your Schumer

legislation moments, your uh Matthew

Brown, your Dylan Borland's, you know,

you all these separate incidents and

whistleblowers coming forward repeatedly

saying similar things and and and you

you revisit that intellectual conviction

and it be starts to become a more

visceral conviction like I really am

starting to feel this as being a reality

as being true and and that that is you

know quite different particularly

someone like myself who's not had a a

classic experience uh that that some

have had of seeing a craft or seeing a

being of interacting with either of

those. I've not had that. And so I'm

just sort of a in many ways an average

Joe who just happens to find this

information fascinating and and deeply

compelling. And and it hits you, man. It

hits you more and more as we go through

this process that there is a a a real deep

deep

reality here that is uh unsettling. And

it's not unsettling in the sense that

oh, I'm not going to be able to

understand it. I mean, I I always will

say there are elements of this that we

will never understand. But it's

unsettling in the sense that so much

could be different than what we've been

taught, what we've been led to believe

uh is true about the world, about our

our social structures, about our

frameworks. Um, we we've kind of been

given a path uh given a guide in in a

way. We've stayed within those bounds.

You know, sort of the image I like here

is like you you take your kids to the

bowling alley and they inflate the uh

the lanes and you just the ball goes

straight down the lane. There's no it

never gets in the gutter. Everything is

hitting hitting pins every time. It

feels in many ways like we live in a

world that that that functions like

that. uh and and chaos and destruction

the the the striking of those pins is

almost the inevitable outcome uh in the

world that we find ourselves. So yeah,

it's it was very powerful and for me

leaves a lot of remaining questions but

also deeper conviction in in the truth

of this entire situation.

>> Yeah, I felt that as well. And I think

the other takeaway for me was what we're

up against in terms of the control

structure even within the human system

which might bleed into a more

metaphysical control structure. And

we'll get into some of that. But I think

we have to be sober in our analysis. And

I know you feel the same way when we

look at the characters, the cast of

characters involved in trying to force

disclosure, the people who be considered

the heroes on UFO Twitter and what

they're actually up against, the shadow

forces behind the scenes and what

they're up against. Is it as simple as

exposing the head shot and the contact

information of the gatekeepers or is

that kind of a farcical way of actually

addressing this? Because what was clear

was that Dylan Borland has been under

psychological attack basically ever

since he began talking about these

things. And it's pretty horrendous, I

think, for any of us who believe in

treating people with basic human decency

to see what's happened to him and

knowing as Americans that our taxpayer

dollars are paying for that system that

does that and it turns on its own so

quickly. And I said something on social

media I want to quote here because I

think it succinctly describes how I was

feeling after that interview. I said

Dylan Borland's disconcerting testimony

makes clear that corruption,

malfeasants, and psychological terrorism

are entrenched main stays within a

closed loop self-serving system. So far,

that loop has shown far more resolve in

preserving the status quo than

politicians andor the public have shown

in uprooting it. Until that balance of

will shifts, nothing else will.

That's what I came away feeling that we

are kind of fooling ourselves if we

think we're on the verge of disclosure.

As much as we all like to talk about

that I think we have to be serious about

what it's going to really take. You have

mentioned before in previous podcast

episodes it might take someone who goes

for broke and says NDA be damned. I'm

going to expose it all. I'm going to

leak it to all these different news

sources at the same time and give them

such overwhelming evidence that they

can't help but report on it. It may take

something like that. It's hard to

imagine as much as we have been

encouraged by three congressional

committees over the last few years and

everything that that sounds impressive

compared to the history of the few

decades before that. But when we think

about what we're up against though that

still feels like uh David and Goliath

kind of battle here. And again the

deeper question is what forces behind

the scenes for good or for ill might be

involved here. The other thing I want to

say quickly about this whole recent

development where not only are Congress

people talking about the old gods and

talking about this notion that this goes

back to the very beginning, the Anunnaki

and things like that, but even people

like Dylan Borland are saying that like

you pointed to in his testimony that

this is ancient. He said that right this

goes way way back. This is about the

beginning of humankind. And what's

interesting is you think back to Jacqu

Valet and how he was kind of on the

forefront of this. He was a pioneer in

making us look back at deep history and

say there's a lot of parallel here. This

might not be a recent phenomenon. It's

one thing for someone like Jacqu Valet,

a cutting edge pioneer eupfologist to

say that. But when your congress people

and your military aligned whistleblowers

are telling you that, you really have to

stop and check yourself because you

realize this is all pointing to

something like a vast metaphysical

playground is what this really truly is.

physicalism be damned. That's what it

seems to be. What are the implications

and how shall we respond in light of

that? That's what made me think this

would be a great topic for us to tackle.

You know, we both have a background in

religious studies. We both have a

background as being in different parts

of our life, part of communities of

faith. I just want to ask you personally

before we dive into some of the

implications here for religious people.

When you think about the kind of

environment you were in growing up as a

minister's son and what you were taught

about the world then followed by your

leaving the church and leaving behind

that worldview only to encounter the UFO

phenomenon and somehow end up

transcending all of it in this deeper

metaphysical equation. Reflect on that

deep experience. Yeah, it's been quite a

journey and I would have never ever

conceived that this subject would have

harmonized that entire experience, but

it certainly has. Uh yeah, I I I was

going to church before I was born

basically and I was always in the

building uh you know there three times a

week uh deeply involved in the church

community. I was uh baptized at a young

age that that was just kind of normal.

That was that that was life. That that

was how the world was. Uh that that

there was a deep truth uh to uh the

teachings of Jesus and and the books of

the Bible. And and you know, I'm really

grateful for for my dad, my parents.

They they created a very loving home to

and to grow up in. And I had two awesome

siblings still do who kind of went

through that journey with me. And and

questions were welcome. We were

encouraged to to try to understand the

uh the stories of the Bible, the history

of those books in the Bible, the

writers, the perspectives, the

historical context. Uh that was the

education that I was given uh as a

youngster just going through the church.

I was not taught Christianity from a

dogmatic point of view. Um I was taught

Christianity from a

you know, this is how we can live. this

is how we should treat one another. That

this that that God is a God of love and

and that dictates uh that is the most

important thing that dictates all these

interactions and all these other

principles. Um I also you know certainly

felt convicted that I could have a

personal relationship with God. You know

that that's something that I could pray

I could you know have a have a direct

connection to the divine. um that uh

there was also a sense in which the the

spirit of God was still alive in the

world. Um so I didn't necessarily grow

up with a I didn't at all grow up with a

fundamentalist perspective of of the

Bible. I was not taught that it was the

literal word of God and that you know

sort of once that last chapter was

written there was nothing new uh you

know ever to come after that from from

God but that that the text was a living

thing and the spirit of God was living

and acting in the world today which

means that uh as we as humanity grows

and changes we maybe encounter God in

new ways and then that we interpret that

uh relationship in new ways. So it was

kind of a dynamic changing faith. Um and

so you know that was kind of my general

journey and going to seminary and and

going through that experience was very

much a um even having all of that kind

of progressive quote unquote progressive

exposure. Going through seminary for me

was very much a uh pulling back the

curtain uh situation. And here I mean

mainly that it made very clear to me the

degree to which uh human beings have had

such an active hand in the theological

frameworks of belief and and you know I

can I could then I learned and could

then afterward look at people's belief

structures and say oh this is why they

believe this. This is where it came

from. this was the influence on this

belief structure and and it really took

the fire out of everything. It was just

kind of a very analytical cold

perspective on on belief and faith and

it stripped me my of my own personal uh

relationship with that because it kind

of anesthetized all of it into this you

know very clean uh you know intellectual

exercise. And so quite quite a different

turnaround for me. So much so that I

left the church even though I had been a

minister during my seminary days uh for

a period of time. So left all that

behind and it took a number of years

really Darren where I just had to uh

process that you know had to process

that change and and come to

understanding that that experience and

putting it in a healthy context and and

still appreciating it. Uh you know I

think I saw a lot of colleagues in

seminary who also left the church have

have a lot of anger issues with that

experience. Uh, but I was grateful for

it. I would, you know, love the

conversations. I would do it again. And,

uh, you know, I'm incredibly grateful

for this experience now because it's

really changed the way that I look at

all of that and is allowing me to

reexamine it, reinterpret it, and place

it in a even larger framework of

understanding that uh, for me has been

incredibly meaningful.

Yeah, it's amazing to think back and to

also recognize as I know both you and I

have reflected on in many of our

conversations that that's not all just

happenstantial. It's not just a crazy

flux of experiences that just happened

to come together by chance. You look

back and you recognize a meandering

trail that seemed very meandering at the

time and yet in retrospect it makes a

lot of sense. And we both see how that

background, while it's framed in a very

interesting way in light of what we know

now, it still plays a major role in

helping us to frame this better than I

think some people can.

Now, you mentioned not being raised in

fundamentalist circles and what a

difference that makes and that you were

actually in a millure that encouraged

inquiry and open questions. I think

that's beautiful because many people

talk about actually being recovering

fundamentalists that this is something

that you you have to face. Even Donald

Hoffman has said that about his

background that he was raised in a very

fundamentalist Christian home. He felt

like he was turning his back on his

family, his history, perhaps even

jeopardizing his eternal soul when he

dared to study science. And now we think

about what he was doing. Again, I think

that's a very interesting story more

than meets the eye there. I think again

that's part of some sort of overarching

metaphysical design which is what we're

talking about today. But when we address

how religious people will be impacted,

we of course have to break that down

into some different categories. We could

break it down into numerous

subcategories in terms of different

Christian denominations and different

sects within those denominations. But

let's at least discuss some major

categories here and how it will be

impacting for these people. I'd like to

begin actually with evangelicals that

are, you know, numerous in the United

States where you and I live and how they

will be impacted.

As part of this, I actually had a

conversation with a good friend of mine

this week and I want to quote something

I wrote to her when I was reflecting on

the consequences in terms of how the

Bible frames things and what it's

actually talking about rather than what

it looks like it's talking about,

especially when you read an English translation.

translation.

I said one of the most consequential

adjustments that evangelicals

specifically will have to make is

recognizing that the entity/ entities

that have hinged their metaphysical

hopes upon via biblical texts

specifically from the Old Testament are

intermediate beings not the ultimate

creator. Furthermore, they will have to

contend with the fact that much of the

capriccious behavior and demands made by

such entities can no longer be explained

or explained away by saying, "Who can

know the ways of God? For his ways are

above ours." As someone who once counted

myself among those ranks, I understand

the degree to which blinders are in

place there, almost like a pervasive

optical illusion. Once you see the NHI

connection, you can't unsee it. But

prior to then, one can read those

relevant texts hundreds of times and

still fall under the mass hypnotic

effect of group think. That too is

suspicious, by the way. I think more

than meets the eye goes on there and

speaks to the degree of influence

subsuming forces have on humanity. To

say this revelation will be paradigm

shattering is actually an

understatement. And then I followed that

up by saying for evangelicals

specifically the Bible is sacrosan and

it serves as the major hinge assumption

of the belief structure. If that falls

much of the rest does as well. If that

happens in one fell swoop we may very

well see large swaths of our society

cracking under the strain. Of course a

key question is will this be revealed in

a way that is undeniable?

Probably not. not anytime soon anyway.

And even if that does happen, it will be

over time. Nevertheless, the

consequences are profound. And I think

this is the crowd that Jeff Krele was

referring to when he thought about the

catastrophic implications.

But I want to get you to check in here

as well because you've heard me even do

some different POC episodes and I know

that you've entertained some of these

ideas yourself where we recognize the

cast of characters in the Old Testament

might not be what they seem to be at

least from a Christian point of view. So

when you think about again growing up in

the church and the way that those

characters were framed and how you were

taught to understand them even in a more

open context compared to what you

understand now about this notion of NHI

and metaphysical forces and the notion

of interdimensionality and all of that,

how do you make sense of how those

people specifically will make sense of

this all if it comes to light? Yeah,

it's it's a it's a great question, a

challenging uh question to to really

examine here. And and evangelicalism

today is certainly changing. It's not

necessarily what it even look l looked

like a few decades ago. Um it's becoming

more and more synonymous with the

fundamentalist movement. Um, you know,

the classic evangelical in American

history would be somebody like Billy

Graham, uh, who was, uh, you know, kind

of closer to being a fundamentalist, but

not necessarily maybe quite as strict in

that way. Uh, but the fundamentalist

movement, which is treating the Bible,

like you said, the primacy of the Bible

in the faith as the literal words of

God, no metaphor, no ambiguity, like

this is just exactly as it was given to

us in the King James version or what

have you. like that that interpretation

is becoming the dominant interpretation.

Now, what's interesting about it from my

perspective is that there's been this uh increasing

increasing

pairing of of this faith structure with

the the political power structures of of

at least in the west of of the United

States, there's been a a closer

alignment of those two um to where the

the line between them feels much more

ambiguous and blurry and gray than it

ever used to be. uh the the degree of

tribalism within that uh sort of faith

group is is very extreme. Um it's uh

they they certainly protect the borders

of their faith very rigorously. Um but

but at the same time it's it's it's

becoming even more difficult I think to

understand what the true beliefs

actually are when it comes to the the

the faith components because they are

more so uh the faith aspects of it. The

ethical aspects of of the belief system

are taking a second uh sort of seat to

the political aspirations of of the

group. And uh that is deeply disturbing

to me because it it and when you look at

statements that are being made by some

of our politicians now who are uh you

know kind of figureheads within both

politics and the Christian faith. When

people think about Christians, they

think about some of these political

voices and the statements they're making

about uh the Bible or their or their

faith or what have you. They make them

as if they are literally like the only interpretation

interpretation

of that of that belief. And and and so

if you're a non-Christian looking at

that, you're like, well, I guess that's

what they believe. Well, it is one

narrow slice, you know, of of belief

there. And so, um, it's an interesting

trend. Certainly in history, we've had a

lot of similar trends where we've had

consolidation of belief into political

power. uh you know you can think of the

monarchies of old and how they aligned

themselves with you know the divine

right of kings and all this kind of

thing and then you had a reaction to

that alignment you had a reaction with

the protestant revolution you had a

reaction with uh you know different

religious groups trying to flee to

America to pursue religious freedom you

know the irony of that now you know that

that seems to be increasingly less uh

common uh to have different beliefs so

it's um it's going to be a a big deal.

Um because you have the this this power

alignment and I think it's going to

really create a confrontation moment for

evangelicals in terms of what is it that

they truly believe? Are they are they

are they more aligned with the classic

power structures, political structures

of the world, or are they more aligned

with with their beliefs? And and and

whichever way that wind blows, I think

we're going to see how how that how this

reality impacts them. Um, theology

though I will say has an amazing ability

to morph and and be very pliable uh to

to changes that happen in culture. And

so even though immediately there might

be a lot of um tectonic impact on on the

on that particular religious group, I

think you will see over time a an

adoption or a transition into a modified

theology that makes space for uh the the

non-human intelligence. the other

aspects of disclosure that we have been

talking about, it will end up looking

nothing like the faith that you see now

or that we would call classic

evangelicalism. Um, but it it it uh it

will still be there. I don't think it's

going to get tossed out entirely. At

least I would be surprised if it will at

least in the near term, maybe the next

hundred years or so, it's still going to

be around.

>> Yeah, agreed. And actually, I have

something else I want to quote that I

wrote to this friend of mine that is

related to that. But I just want to

touch on some of what you addressed

there because yes, when we hear about

open conversation from the halls of

power about project 2025,

we do see this really unfortunate

marrying of a very specific Christian

framing of reality and notion of what

Americana should be versus a much

broader and multi-dimensional kind of

background. And to your point, I know

for me, I have to resist cringing

whenever someone says the Christian view

is such and such because there are many

different Christian perspectives

depending on your background. And even

when you and I both as Americans

describe our background and I hear you

talk about your background, it sounds

remarkably unlike mine. Even though

we're both Americans, both I wasn't

raised in the church, but I became a

Christian for a period of time in my

late teens into about the age of 30. And

yet even our experience was quite

different. And what you were taught was

different than what I was taught.

And we're literally to the point you

made, we're having people from the halls

of power basically trying to erase

slowly but surely this notion of

separation of church and state. Well,

they didn't really mean that. The

founding fathers didn't really mean

that. And what we're noticing there

that's particularly perplexing and

disconcerting about modern society is a

desire, a willingness to brazantly be

completely untethered from history,

whether it's relevant to religious

history or national history. And now

we're seeing terms thrown around,

historical terms thrown around like

sloganizing where it really has no need

to actually connect to history. And

that's one of the caveats I actually

wanted to give because while on the one

hand you would think that if Christians

and evangelicals specifically learned

that some of these references to what

they thought was God in the Old

Testament for instance was actually

these intermediate interdimensional

beings that were powerful but not

ultimately deities in the way that they

were framed. For many that will be

disconcerting and perhaps even

discombobulating and worldview crushing.

But for others, I think they'll just

carry on as if nothing has changed

because some forms of modern

fundamentalist culture that, like you

say, is now kind of crude bed fellows

with politicians

doesn't seem concerned about how it

connects to history or the Bible.

Anyway, much of, let's be honest here,

much of what passes as Christianity in

the halls of power is so far removed

from the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth

where again, just like people throw

around the term Nazi and it becomes a

slogan and a slur rather than something

based in history, this notion of Jesus

and Christian, same thing there, right?

It's not really tethered to history, nor

does there seem to even be a felt sense

that they need to for that subset of

people. It takes on a vortex of energy

of its own, becomes its own thing with

certain movements that are now steering

policy on a national level. It's a

really bizarre circumstance we find

ourselves in. And this is another reason

why I think it's important for us to

have this conversation about how

disclosure will impact religion because

what impacts religion, especially in our

country, impacts the entire state of the nation.

nation.

But in light of what you were saying

about how Christianity and religion in

general actually responds to cultural

shifts, it doesn't just stand apart from

them. I think that's a great point and

that's the very point I made to this

friend of mine. So I just want to quote

something I said here. I said on the one

hand, counter to popular opinion,

religion has always been an evolving

enterprise. When people ask, "Will

religion survive such and such a shift?"

they tend to preface that question on

the assumption that up until now,

religion has largely been one static

monolith. It's never been that. It's

always been an interactive, reflective,

and sometimes deconstructive mirror to

the society it's embedded within. That

said, this revelation goes to the

foundation itself. So once again, much

of this comes down to how farreaching

the public revelations prove to be. And

even then, of course, many will just

tune out those sources. That's one of

the biggest X- factors in the current

disclosure conversation, by the way. The

public no longer looks to one source or

authority for truth statements. That's

always been the case to some degree, but

now with the decline of mainstream media

and the rise of quote unquote

alternative facts, that element is

starker than it's ever been. So, love to

get you to chime in on that. That in the

midst of this conversation about

disclosure, which everyone gets excited

about, we sometimes look past the fact

that we don't have a coherent way of

passing on information anyway. Even if a

president were to make a statement from

a podium, what percentage of the

population would even believe that? How

would QAnon frame that depending on who

was president at the time? What's your

thoughts on those kind of matters? Yeah,

I'm glad you went there because I I

definitely wanted to uh amend some of my

statement with this aspect and that with

even within evangelicalism and

fundamentalist evangelicalism,

there is a strong current of questioning

reality or or uh using Satan or the

deceiver or Lucifer. All these kinds of

names that they will use as a foil for

whatever it is they don't like. Um, and

so if if disclosure introduces these

uncomfortable uh truths, you know, let

let's say there's a document or there's

even a video that shows, you know,

there's been some clear manipulation of

of the Bible, of religious text, of

ancient history, uh, by these beings.

Um, that particularly in today's day and

age would be met with many by by many of

these with incredul like there's no way

that that that's do possible. This is

just, you know, this is just Satan doing

his thing again, trying to trying to

trick us all into believing this is

true. My faith is still the same. I

still believe in this one uh text as it

was written. You know, I cannot be it

cannot be shaken this that or the other,

right? So, I think you're you're

absolutely going to see that kind of

reaction and and it'll persist for for

quite a while. um you know it does come

back in many ways to uh I think the the

sort of tribalistic tendencies and

in-group outgroup uh sort of dynamic uh

because if if the leadership of that

tribal group tends to start shifting

more towards being open-minded uh to

this reality then then I think you will

see some begin kind of reluctantly

coming along with that and then you

might have a splintering or a factioning

of of that what used to be kind of a

monoculture. it'll splinter into

separate things. A believing kind of

traditional culture where they they

stick to the their their guns with the

belief in the Bible as it always was and

a new sort of offshoot of that that

makes space for and room for the the

nuance that might have been introduced

by disclosure as long as their person or

their faction is able to leverage that

narrative for their benefit. Um, and so,

you know, it'll be very interesting, but

but I I do think that particularly in

our day and age where reality is so

pliable, uh, that you can't really

believe any video that you see. You're

soon not going to be able to believe any

audio that you hear, anything that that

you read, the historical record when it

comes to video proved documentation can

all be manipulated. Uh, it's it's going

to be a house of mirrors in many ways as

far as pick your own adventure about

what you want to believe.

>> Yeah. And you make a good point there as

well when you talked about leveraging

different elements of our society for a

political end. We do have to realize

that much of this is transactional,

right? It's politicians, people in power

largely manipulating the masses while

telling them that they're one of them.

So, we're definitely seeing that. We've

always seen that. It's very Mavian in

many ways.

Something else I wanted to address here

about the biblical text and then I want

to get into something that I think is

fascinating and disconcerting and

startling all at the same time when we

talk about this strange marriage between

church and state and it will have to do

with how some elements of our government

actually may be trying to enact some

sort of notion of what the biblical end

times will look like. But before we get

there, let me give a bit more context on

what I had said earlier about the

different religious texts and how that

will impact people when they recognize

the players are not who they thought

they were perhaps. So regarding my first

point about evangelicals and the Old

Testament texts, something else they

will have to come to grips with, I mean

by that evangelicals, is the

interpretive biases involved in the

Christian reframing of more ancient

texts. It's very clear when one reads

the text in the original Hebrew, which I

got to do when I was in college, with

cultural context considered, that later

redactors basically forced an awkward

and largely indefensible translation

into English of some of those original

texts. And thus, the belief that the

Bible floated to earth from heaven also

comes crashing to earth for

evangelicals. you can have reference

that their belief structure hinges not

just on a particular reading of the

biblical texts but also on a rather

naive idea as to how those texts came to

be to begin with. No mention for

instance of church councils and things

like that. This is known as verbal

plenary inspiration or inherency giving

you a flash from the past to your days

in seminary there Nathan. One point of

clarification, the Christian redactive

process, and these are basically editors

when we say redactors that I referenced

is particularly pertinent to the

disclosure conversation because that

process specifically obscured the fact

that numerous entities with seeming

god-like powers, often with different

apparent agendas, are referenced in the

Old Testament. that monotheistic

revision forced on the text just doesn't

hold under closer scrutiny and it keeps

from public knowledge the fact that

humankind's interaction with and

influence from NHI goes back to the very

beginning. So what's your response to

all of that?

>> I I love this. It's uh it's narrative

management and it's it's always been a

part of the belief structure of of

really any religion. I mean, we tend to

think when you're born in the 21st

century, 20th, 21st century, that oh,

the religion that you that you've

discovered in school is the religion

that's always been that way since since

the founder of that particular uh belief

system roamed the earth, right? And it's

certainly not the case. It has

transformed many many many times. And

that it's it's a classic example of

those who are in power uh get to write

history, literally rewrite history. And

that has been a part of the Christian

tradition from the very start. Um a very

selective uh process of of choosing

what's what's tossed out, what's kept

in, what's emphasized, what's deemphasized,

deemphasized,

uh what what's uncomfortable, what's un

what what is comfortable. All these

things are are, you know, sort of

controlled. It's not like there's some

sort of backroom council necessarily

crafting this, although I'm sure that's

happened to some degree with some of the

councils that that chose the canon of

the of the scripture. But through

consensus, cultural uh agreement and and

you know, time there there there emerges

a a a felt uh sort of sense of what the

faith means. And you know there's a a

shocking degree quite frankly of hubris

that we have in in that believers have

today where they see exhibit so much

conviction about whatever this passage

means or that passage means when we are

so far removed from the context of that

uh insight of that scripture that it's

it's it's nearly impossible for us to

glean the the the true meaning behind

it. And so it it it very much is a

dynamic kind of living belief system.

And so, you know, the it's it's really

interesting that these faith traditions

have practiced narrative control,

narrative management, because that's

exactly the stuff that we're talking

about now with uh the the narrative

control of our history um of our of our

the history of the 20th of the 20th

century of of you know, what really took

place of disclosure itself, you know,

all the all the shady shadowy secrets.

Um, reality has been controlled for

quite a long time. Um, and some of that

has been to the benefit of those in

power. Some of it has been just a

byproduct of of the way that humans

interact with each other. And we we have

to have a kind of as the world has

gotten to be a smaller place. We have to

have we need this uh sort of common

cultural currency that we can navigate

within. Otherwise, we're just going to

constantly bump heads against each

other. And you and you still see that

with conflicts in the world, but less

conflict than we used to have

historically where we, you know, my

worldview was always better than yours,

etc., etc., and we would constantly come

to blows.

>> Yeah. And it's interesting. I want to

reflect here as we sort of get halfway

through because I think some people will

be saying to themselves, okay, so these

guys are talking about religion in this

episode, but we're not really. We're

talking about metaphysics. We're talking

about the ultimate nature of reality.

We're talking about what are the actual

forces on the scene, whether we can see

them literally with our eyes or not,

that are the most consequential forces.

And not only should we pay attention to

the religious question, because in our

society, for instance, it plays a huge

role in what's happening in terms of

public policy, but also because

underlying religion is just one way of

talking about this metaphysical reality.

And it's absolutely in play like it has

never been before. even when Congress

people and some whistleblowers for the

military are saying these things. Now,

in reference to what I said a minute

ago, I just want to give a shout out to

a book, an author that has written a lot

about, for those who are interested, how

you can reframe with cultural context

and a better reading of the original

Hebrew, of some of those ancient texts.

I would point people to Paul Wallace's

books. For instance, he wrote a book

called Escaping from Eden. He has a

series of books around that kind of

theme. But the subtitle of this book

says it all. Does Genesis teach that the

human race was created by God or

engineered by ET? That is literally the

subtitle. And in his experience,

speaking of really interesting

synchronistic experience, I think he

ended up having some sort of injury. He

broke his leg or something and had to

pause from his work as a minister. And

in his time off, when he couldn't move,

he began to do a deep dive into the

history. And when he looked closely at

the history, when he looked closely at

the original Hebrew, when he looked at

the original cultural context as best as

can be understood, he realized that

what's been framed and reframed for

modern audiences is a real

bastardization of the original texts. So

his books do a great job of pointing to

some of those. I covered some of his

work in one of my POC episodes. So for

those of you who are wondering, I think

this is the most interesting thing to

pull away from this one aspect. This is

not speculation. When you read the texts

in the original Hebrew, you clearly see

that there are more than one of these

actors on the stage. And that sometimes

the parts of the Bible that maybe to you

always felt a bit strange. How a certain

God seem to have one kind of belief or

activity or behavior pattern and then

suddenly shifted. And like I referenced

in the beginning there, sometimes we'll

say, well, who are we to know God's

ways? He's above us. But sometimes

that's a kind of handwaving gesture to

say we don't know and it doesn't make

any sense. But it's dangerous to even

ask those questions, right? That's part

of the fundamentalist pull on people is

that it threatens their eternal

existence. When you're told either

explicitly or implicitly that your

eternal soul could be tortured in a

hellscape for eternity if you even dare

to ask certain questions, then that's

going to make you easily controlled,

right? It's going to make you shut down.

It's going to make you stay in your

lane. Now again, I want to ask people,

might that itself be part of the control

structure? because then you stay small.

You don't recognize your power. You

don't dare to ask dangerous questions.

And I've also pointed to how even the

story of Eden and who the characters are

there might be completely a

misrepresentation almost upside down

representation of the history because

for certain Christian groups usually

considered heretical. Now the sense

there is that the snake the serpent is

actually the hero that it's not God the

creator God ultimate source

consciousness that's giving these

commands. It's some sort of intermediary

interdimensional being some kind of NHI

that's saying we want you to know so

much but not too much. If you know too

much then you could actually take us on.

That's dangerous. If that were truly a

monotheistic god does that even make any

sense from that perspective? It doesn't.

Clearly, these are beings that are in

some way not so different than us, but

just have more impressive technology and

capabilities. So, in that sense, the

snake is trying to equip human beings

with the capacity to wake up to their

true power and to their true nature as

source consciousness itself, I would

argue. So, look at the text and do a

deep dive into what the texts are

actually saying. I mentioned in that

episode that there are times where for

instance the term being used is actually

Yahweh which is the name for a specific

god. Now in modern evangelicalism as you

and I both know those are kind of

interchangeable. Elohim you know Yahweh

whatever Jehovah these are all different

terms for the same being. That's the

part that's being forced on the text by

the redactors. And there are times just

to be clear this is not just about

interpretation. There are times where a

word, a term has been added to try to

make it seem more clear. And what it

actually does is lead you to a

conclusion that's opposite of what the

text is actually saying. So sometimes

Yahweh and Elohim will be inserted so

that they are next to each other so as

to make it clear that it's still the

same one God. Why would they do that?

Because they know darn well it looks

like something else going on there. So

when you think about the numbers of

people in our society, Nathan, that are

running around believing this is an

accurate telling of history and our

ultimate beginnings, knowing what's

actually going on is a bizarre

interaction over time and sometimes a

waring kind of factionism between

different NHI elements. It's truly

striking that we now actually have

people in positions of power in the

halls of power wanting to move us more

in the direction of that kind of framing

of reality knowing that that itself

might be a framing that is arising out

of a control structure. The very control

structure that people like Jacqu Le have

talked about. We just never thought it

was this kind of control structure. But

this is kind of where the evidence

leads. And speaking of that, something I

want to bring up now that I referenced a

minute ago in case your take on

just to make it clear to people how

influential this element is. These are

not just people living in backwoods

somewhere believing these things. People

in the most consequential halls of power

believe these things. Even to the point

where, for instance, the Collins elite

that you and I have talked about before,

this group within the intelligence

community deeply embedded in the

military and different halls of power in

government who hold to a fundamentalist

Christian perspective. And they have

always seen UFOs and the coming of UFOs

and the modern phenomenon as actually a

demonic kind of presence in the world.

And they are seeking to resist that.

Even as we heard from Lu Alzando being

told that you should not even

investigate this cuz that puts a foot in

the door for these satanic forces to

come in. So look the other way basically

Lu Alzando is what he was told. Now,

since then, I've also come across other

information suggesting that it goes

beyond that, that there are some

elements within the government. I've

heard this from numerous sources now,

just to be clear, who actually believe

their role is to try to manifest the end

times, even usher in the apocalypse with

their behavior, with specific actions

they are taking, not just a preference

they have, but actions they are taking.

And they think in doing that they are

doing God's will. It's fascinating

because again whose will is being done

in that particular case and again how

does the control structure if it exists

and I think it does benefit from that

kind of perspective.

Uh yeah that's disturbing um but I

certainly think it is true and you see

elements of that everywhere. Um the

degree to which some of these ancient

uh religious control systems and and and

uh and and beefs basically uh still

persist in the world because you have

many religious systems which have wedded

themselves directly into the state power

and because of that because of that

intermingling you now have the states in

the world who are vying for control over

resources and territories and etc.

They're they're the sort of the uh the

swordand of this religious belief

structure. And you see that happening

everywhere. You see it happening in the

Middle East. Um you see it happening uh

in Eastern Europe. You see it happening

to some degree in the US uh with the

empire, the US empire that that has been

around for quite a while now. um the way

that it it kind of moves in and tries to

be this shining light on a hill versus

all these other um states, you know,

it's it's it's intertwined. That belief

system is intertwined. And so it it's

it's certainly clear to me that there

would be people in that structure who

have have adopted a certain narrative uh

mainly from the book of Revelation in

the Bible, maybe from the book of Daniel

here and there as well. they've adopted

this storyline and when they've been

exposed to the reality of NHI, they're

just slotting that in to to this story

and they're saying, "Oh, well, this this

is exactly what I read about in Sunday

school." You know, this is so so now I'm

in this position and I understand that

this is real and what would be better

than ushering in the apocalypse because

there's this new heaven and new earth

that awaits on the other end of it. And

isn't that where we want to be? We want

to be uh back to where Christ has

returned and and you know, heaven is has

is has been restored, all this kind of

stuff. So, uh it makes perfect sense to

me that that would be a big part of it.

And and one other thing I want to

mention, too, is that, you know, it

frustrates me that the the primary

whistleblowers we hear from are people

who have uh a military slant. um you

know you you don't really have

you have I guess you could say Danna

Pulka as a theologian and Jeffrey Kriel

as a certain kind of theologian who

represent maybe a different take on it

but they're neither of them have been

close enough to uh the legacy programs.

So they're they're just kind of giving

speculative outsiders, you know,

perspective. And at least in one of

those situations, you know, I think

Diana is still very much a believer um

in her Catholic tradition. So it it it

colors her perspective on on her

interpretation. Um, so I guess where I'm

going with that is we have a long ways

to go where we need more people from

different backgrounds, different

perspectives to have genuine exposure to

the legacy programs, to the the the deep

secrets to to then offer up additional

alternative perspectives, right? Um, so

we're kind of at a at a poverty of

perspective in many ways at at the

moment. So, I do think to your larger

point, there absolutely is a control

structure happening here. The forces are

clearly at work. Um, why are we having

so much turmoil still today? You know,

where does that come from? Examine the

source of some of that conflict. It it

often comes right back to these deeply

held religious convictions more so than

than any anything else.

>> Yeah, absolutely. And something else I

want to add in here as a counterpoint

because I can imagine some people

thinking that we are being too

dismissive of a certain religious

perspective. I want to make it clear

that I have shifted in my perspective on

this over the last couple of years based

on the data that I have seen. And I

would say that some of this is a kind of

metaphysical force that's coming from

beyond our notion of spacetime. That

doesn't mean, however, that it slots

into a really traditional understanding

of demonic forces arising from some sort

of dogma set in the deep past. We've

covered that before in other episodes,

so I don't need to go there again. Other

than to say we shouldn't make primary or

more important or more consequential a

notion or a perspective just because

it's older. So just because an older

tradition that was part of Christian

history for instance learned to frame

this a certain way or for that matter

even Islamic history with the jin right

just because it was called that term to

describe phenomena that doesn't make it

more able to really capture what's going

on here and how to engage with it. Those

are just terms and people trying to

wrestle with complex metaphysical forces

just like we're doing today. Again, I

want to remind people this is not

ultimately a religious question anymore

than it's a nation state conversation.

This is about the biggest picture of

all. What is really going on here? What

is in play? I do think some of what is

involved is dark and nefarious. People

may have recognized over time I've more

readily said that we are seeing all of

the above. The very same experiencers

and abductees will have sometimes really

amazing, ecstatic, sensational,

supernatural, life-changing experiences

of beauty and light and love. And those

same experiencers with different

elements that are also arising from some

sort of metaphysical subsuming frame

that are torturous, tormenting,

horrifying, dark, nefarious, and out to

basically fracture the human psyche for

their benefit. That honestly exists

here. It's happening. It's happening

now. and in some cases more than than I

think people will be comfortable knowing

that have both of those experiences.

So, we're not trying to dismiss the fact

that some of this might be dark and

nefarious and antihuman. It may be in

some way, but what we are saying is that

let's not resort to slotting it into

pre-existing religious categories that

are themselves just dogmatic statements

made from people who are trying to

wrestle with the same root phenomena

that we're trying to wrestle with now.

And you brought up Vanna Basulka being

Catholic and undoubtedly framing how she

looks at this. James Latsky is another

one who's a Catholic who when he shares

things, we have to remember this. We've

brought up Chris Bledsoe before and he

obviously grew up in fairly conservative

Christian traditions. We're not trying

to dismiss these people because they

have these influences. We're just saying

acknowledge the influences and recognize

that there's going to be a preference

for framing this through those

influences because nobody wants to crash

their worldview. Sometimes it happens

them inevitably that you have the

discombobulation and you have to

transcend to some more overarching

perspective. But until that happens,

every human being has a vested interest

because of their own cognitive comfort

to try to slot it into their existing

worldview. Just something to be aware

of. Yeah. And I want to make a quick

point here is that I'm so glad you you

mentioned this and that's that

disclosure I think really the the the

the jarring aspect of it is that it's

going to challenge all of our

frameworks. It's it, you know, here

we're talking about religion because

it's kind of a it's an easy one to pick

on to a certain degree. Uh it's clear to

you and I how the religious framework

has dictated this conversation and it's

often used as a as a way to try to

explain what this might be and it's just

it's all this stuff is slotted into

these old religious contexts and we're

we're we're kind of challenging folks to

say is that really the right

interpretation and and let's examine

that kind of belief to begin with.

But but make no mistake about it,

disclosure is going to break all the

frameworks that we have about

understanding our reality. It's going to

challenge us in so many ways and make

it's going to make us uncomfortable and

and you know you've talked about this

quite a lot that there's a uh an

agreement an unspoken agreement that we

have all entered into as sort of

citizens of the earth in this day and

age as we're moving through our lives

that we're going to live in a certain

certain fashion and and even things that

we might identify as outside the box

thinking or unconventional ways of

living, they're still within a generally

accepted framework of what is okay. And

I think the reality is disclosure is

going to break all of that down. And the

ones who will have the hardest time are

going to be those not just in religious

paradigms that they cling to very

heavily now, but also to those in in secular paradigms where you know you're

secular paradigms where you know you're telling me it's not just science and

telling me it's not just science and it's not just go to work and get a you

it's not just go to work and get a you know a retirement and then you know it's

know a retirement and then you know it's not just like reality is not just kinds

not just like reality is not just kinds of the these things that I've that I've

of the these things that I've that I've traded my life for you know it's not

traded my life for you know it's not that. So this this is the really

that. So this this is the really disturbing aspect of it is that it's

disturbing aspect of it is that it's going to shake all of us down to a

going to shake all of us down to a certain degree. And I think, you know,

certain degree. And I think, you know, to sort of play the game of who's going

to sort of play the game of who's going to have it worst is is a little bit, you

to have it worst is is a little bit, you know, kind of trying to one one up

know, kind of trying to one one up somebody when you're also on the same

somebody when you're also on the same chopping block, right? You're you're

chopping block, right? You're you're going to have the same fate. So it's

going to have the same fate. So it's going to be a very challenging uh

going to be a very challenging uh revelation uh for our society and and

revelation uh for our society and and it's not going to not going to change

it's not going to not going to change overnight. It's going to be something

overnight. It's going to be something that we have to wrestle with for

that we have to wrestle with for generations as as the fallout of

generations as as the fallout of disclosure comes to fruition.

disclosure comes to fruition. >> Yeah, absolutely. Now, before we get to

>> Yeah, absolutely. Now, before we get to I think where this inevitably goes,

I think where this inevitably goes, which is the beginnings of humankind and

which is the beginnings of humankind and who were these characters in the play,

who were these characters in the play, if you will, that were acting in act

if you will, that were acting in act one. Before we go there, let's also

one. Before we go there, let's also discuss some other religious traditions

discuss some other religious traditions and how they will be impacted because

and how they will be impacted because they're not all going to be impacted the

they're not all going to be impacted the same way. And I wouldn't want to be

same way. And I wouldn't want to be accused of being evangelical centric or

accused of being evangelical centric or American centric. Of course, you and I

American centric. Of course, you and I are both going to reflect on our

are both going to reflect on our personal experience because it's the one

personal experience because it's the one most familiar to us. But let's touch on

most familiar to us. But let's touch on some other traditions as well. So we

some other traditions as well. So we mentioned a minute ago various

mentioned a minute ago various characters who are Catholic in their

characters who are Catholic in their perspective. So how will Catholics which

perspective. So how will Catholics which just to clarify for people yes that's

just to clarify for people yes that's still Christian but Catholics believe

still Christian but Catholics believe some different blend some different

some different blend some different version of Christianity than do

version of Christianity than do evangelicals for instance but obviously

evangelicals for instance but obviously coming from the same root tradition.

coming from the same root tradition. Now, even though they early on kind of

Now, even though they early on kind of sometimes put to death or made life

sometimes put to death or made life difficult for people who were daring to

difficult for people who were daring to say that the earth was not the center of

say that the earth was not the center of the universe, over time they've learned

the universe, over time they've learned from those mistakes and they've embraced

from those mistakes and they've embraced it and they actually have an

it and they actually have an astronomical aspect of the Vatican, for

astronomical aspect of the Vatican, for instance, that is doing some really

instance, that is doing some really cutting edge work and different

cutting edge work and different astronomers around the world will go and

astronomers around the world will go and visit the Vatican to engage with their

visit the Vatican to engage with their astronomers around some deep questions.

astronomers around some deep questions. Now, you and I both know that over

Now, you and I both know that over recent years, and people have talked

recent years, and people have talked about this on UFO Twitter, different

about this on UFO Twitter, different Catholic figures of power have come out

Catholic figures of power have come out and said it's very likely that God is so

and said it's very likely that God is so creative that there are other beings,

creative that there are other beings, that ETSs probably do exist, which is in

that ETSs probably do exist, which is in stark contrast to many evangelicals,

stark contrast to many evangelicals, especially fundamentalist evangelicals,

especially fundamentalist evangelicals, who tend to say, "I don't see ETSs in

who tend to say, "I don't see ETSs in the Bible, so they can't exist." Right?

the Bible, so they can't exist." Right? Same thing with dinosaurs, by the way.

Same thing with dinosaurs, by the way. We all know how that goes. So on the one

We all know how that goes. So on the one hand they are positioning themselves

hand they are positioning themselves speaking of narrative control for what

speaking of narrative control for what they may see as an inevitable

they may see as an inevitable confirmation that we are not alone that

confirmation that we are not alone that there are ETSs out there maybe even

there are ETSs out there maybe even interacting with us. That said they will

interacting with us. That said they will say also and Jesus can save them too. So

say also and Jesus can save them too. So it's still being framed within this

it's still being framed within this perspective of aliens and human beings

perspective of aliens and human beings are creation under this monotheistic

are creation under this monotheistic God. Everything is still very dualistic.

God. Everything is still very dualistic. There's a heavenly realm, a spiritual

There's a heavenly realm, a spiritual realm and then the physical plane and

realm and then the physical plane and the ETSs would fall in the physical

the ETSs would fall in the physical plane along with animals and humankind.

plane along with animals and humankind. So that's one particular blend of

So that's one particular blend of Christianity, one strain of Christianity

Christianity, one strain of Christianity that's different than evangelicalism

that's different than evangelicalism that will handle this better. But let's

that will handle this better. But let's not underell this. It would still be

not underell this. It would still be incredibly discombobulating and

incredibly discombobulating and worldview challenging for people of a

worldview challenging for people of a Catholic faith as well.

Catholic faith as well. >> Yeah. I mean the great thing the

>> Yeah. I mean the great thing the Catholic Church has going forward it is

Catholic Church has going forward it is that it is a very institutionalized

that it is a very institutionalized structure. It's it's a strong system

structure. It's it's a strong system that has persisted over centuries. Um a

that has persisted over centuries. Um a clear kind of identity. The great

clear kind of identity. The great example that you just gave about

example that you just gave about astronomy. Uh a church that literally

astronomy. Uh a church that literally killed people for those beliefs is now

killed people for those beliefs is now embracing of them. Um so it's not a

embracing of them. Um so it's not a church that's going to say, "Oh well you

church that's going to say, "Oh well you got me. Let's uh let's pack up the uh

got me. Let's uh let's pack up the uh you know all the the nice things that we

you know all the the nice things that we have. Let's sell the properties and

have. Let's sell the properties and we're just going to we're going to call

we're just going to we're going to call it a day. we're done here. It's got an

it a day. we're done here. It's got an inertia that I think is really difficult

inertia that I think is really difficult to stop and and that's why you see it

to stop and and that's why you see it being um in many times like a leader in

being um in many times like a leader in how it it sort of revises and transforms

how it it sort of revises and transforms uh its perspective of its faith even

uh its perspective of its faith even though sometimes it it comes to that

though sometimes it it comes to that transformation kicking and screaming uh

transformation kicking and screaming uh you know certain examples. So yeah, I

you know certain examples. So yeah, I think I agree with you there. It's going

think I agree with you there. It's going to persist more easily. And speaking of

to persist more easily. And speaking of Catholics, another sister element of

Catholics, another sister element of Catholicism is Eastern Orthodoxy. They

Catholicism is Eastern Orthodoxy. They were one of the early splits in

were one of the early splits in Christianity. And part of my history

Christianity. And part of my history involved being in the Eastern Orthodox

involved being in the Eastern Orthodox church. And I had many friends that were

church. And I had many friends that were in that church. And I really enjoyed the

in that church. And I really enjoyed the mystical aspects of the experience of

mystical aspects of the experience of going to church and that kind of

going to church and that kind of tradition. It was much less leftrain,

tradition. It was much less leftrain, much more rightrain. And I think while I

much more rightrain. And I think while I wouldn't have used those terms then to

wouldn't have used those terms then to describe it, that's what I really

describe it, that's what I really embraced. there's much more of an

embraced. there's much more of an experiential mystical component to it

experiential mystical component to it that I really resonated with. And it's

that I really resonated with. And it's not just in practice that's different.

not just in practice that's different. They do frame things differently. And in

They do frame things differently. And in some ways they are a little bit less

some ways they are a little bit less dualistic than western versions of

dualistic than western versions of Christianity because for instance in

Christianity because for instance in evangelical circles, Satan is seen again

evangelical circles, Satan is seen again in this binary kind of framing as the

in this binary kind of framing as the always has been, always will be enemy of

always has been, always will be enemy of God. So you have this very clear

God. So you have this very clear distinction between good and evil.

distinction between good and evil. Darkness and light. God represents the

Darkness and light. God represents the good forces. Satan or Lucifer represents

good forces. Satan or Lucifer represents the evil forces and it's always going to

the evil forces and it's always going to be that way. And furthermore, to our

be that way. And furthermore, to our point earlier about American society and

point earlier about American society and how people tend to want simple formulas,

how people tend to want simple formulas, people tend to paint their political

people tend to paint their political opponents as being, you know, the

opponents as being, you know, the servants of Satan or whatever. There's

servants of Satan or whatever. There's very little honest reckoning about how

very little honest reckoning about how every human being is complex and nuanced

every human being is complex and nuanced and we all have things we're wrestling

and we all have things we're wrestling with, some things we're doing well with.

with, some things we're doing well with. As the famous saying goes, the line

As the famous saying goes, the line between good and evil goes right through

between good and evil goes right through every human heart. But what I found

every human heart. But what I found interesting, speaking of having less of

interesting, speaking of having less of a dualistic perspective, and I found

a dualistic perspective, and I found this shocking when I was in those

this shocking when I was in those circles, these is Orthodox circles, is

circles, these is Orthodox circles, is that they will pray for the conversion

that they will pray for the conversion of Satan. So rather than seeing it as

of Satan. So rather than seeing it as this always has been, always will be

this always has been, always will be alter ego of God in this dualistic

alter ego of God in this dualistic binary framing, they actually see Satan

binary framing, they actually see Satan as another creature, which of course is

as another creature, which of course is what the Bible actually describes that

what the Bible actually describes that could change his mind. Why could he not,

could change his mind. Why could he not, right? And yet it's interesting that

right? And yet it's interesting that that option is never considered in

that option is never considered in evangelical circles and sometimes even

evangelical circles and sometimes even in Catholic circles. So Eastern Orthodox

in Catholic circles. So Eastern Orthodox will still have a massive difficulty

will still have a massive difficulty with this. We're still within a

with this. We're still within a monotheistic framing. Of course, we

monotheistic framing. Of course, we still have duality and I think that will

still have duality and I think that will not fit well with this notion but again

not fit well with this notion but again it will be more flexible than

it will be more flexible than evangelicals although that might not be

evangelicals although that might not be saying much. Now let's leave behind the

saying much. Now let's leave behind the monotheistic traditions. Obviously I

monotheistic traditions. Obviously I haven't touched on Islam and Judaism.

haven't touched on Islam and Judaism. Let me briefly say that of course in

Let me briefly say that of course in Islam you have this notion of the jin. I

Islam you have this notion of the jin. I read a really interesting book from an

read a really interesting book from an Islamic scholar a few months ago about

Islamic scholar a few months ago about this that this might actually describe

this that this might actually describe some of what's going on. Now, again, the

some of what's going on. Now, again, the key there is not to dial in on that name

key there is not to dial in on that name and think, well, we've got a name, so

and think, well, we've got a name, so now we know what it is. But there's

now we know what it is. But there's certainly a reference to a kind of being

certainly a reference to a kind of being that's not human, that is on the scene,

that's not human, that is on the scene, that is one of the players that doesn't

that is one of the players that doesn't fit with either a kind of heavenly

fit with either a kind of heavenly hierarchy or heavenly frame and an

hierarchy or heavenly frame and an earthly frame. It's like a coexisting

earthly frame. It's like a coexisting alongside humankind kind of species. So

alongside humankind kind of species. So that at least speaks to something more

that at least speaks to something more like what we're seeing here. As with

like what we're seeing here. As with Christianity, we could denote a thousand

Christianity, we could denote a thousand different kinds of Islam as well. And we

different kinds of Islam as well. And we could do the same thing for Judaism. We

could do the same thing for Judaism. We don't have enough time in one episode.

don't have enough time in one episode. But let's move off the monotheistic

But let's move off the monotheistic train and get on to non-dual circles.

train and get on to non-dual circles. So I would say that Buddhists will

So I would say that Buddhists will adjust quite well to this. many

adjust quite well to this. many Buddhists. Now, just like Christians and

Buddhists. Now, just like Christians and Muslims and Jews, there's different

Muslims and Jews, there's different schools of thought within Buddhism.

schools of thought within Buddhism. Sometimes they're pretty opposed to each

Sometimes they're pretty opposed to each other, actually. Inevitably, over time,

other, actually. Inevitably, over time, people through their experience and

people through their experience and different traditions interpret the

different traditions interpret the Buddha differently. But one of the core

Buddha differently. But one of the core beliefs in Buddhism is that ultimately

beliefs in Buddhism is that ultimately our goal is to just be with whatever

our goal is to just be with whatever actually is. That it's a rejection of

actually is. That it's a rejection of dogma. It's saying whatever reality is,

dogma. It's saying whatever reality is, that's what you should pursue. And you

that's what you should pursue. And you should be dogged in your pursuit.

should be dogged in your pursuit. Relentless. Clear the distortion so you

Relentless. Clear the distortion so you can see that. And furthermore, don't let

can see that. And furthermore, don't let anyone tell you that. Find it for

anyone tell you that. Find it for yourself. The Buddha himself said that.

yourself. The Buddha himself said that. So, because this inevitably is a reality

So, because this inevitably is a reality that does involve these other beings,

that does involve these other beings, that will be embraced as just what is.

that will be embraced as just what is. So, that will be better embraced there,

So, that will be better embraced there, I think, than in some monotheistic

I think, than in some monotheistic traditions. Finally, let me just say,

traditions. Finally, let me just say, and I might get you chime in, too. For

and I might get you chime in, too. For Hindus, they will be the most welcoming

Hindus, they will be the most welcoming of this because basically this is

of this because basically this is already embedded within their worldview.

already embedded within their worldview. Many of these different figures,

Many of these different figures, including bluekinned beings, are flying

including bluekinned beings, are flying around in craft in ancient texts that

around in craft in ancient texts that certainly seem to look a lot like what

certainly seem to look a lot like what we hear referenced today. So in their

we hear referenced today. So in their perspective, there's an embrace of many,

perspective, there's an embrace of many, many different kinds of beings and many

many different kinds of beings and many different layers of reality even. So I

different layers of reality even. So I think they will embrace it and they will

think they will embrace it and they will be the most prepared for this. But

be the most prepared for this. But before I go into the ancient history in

before I go into the ancient history in the very beginning and who was on the

the very beginning and who was on the scene then and who also might be on the

scene then and who also might be on the scene now behind the scenes controlling

scene now behind the scenes controlling things from a metaphysical point of

things from a metaphysical point of view, any thoughts from you on some of

view, any thoughts from you on some of these other religions and how they will

these other religions and how they will interact with this information?

interact with this information? >> Yeah, know I tend to agree and I find it

>> Yeah, know I tend to agree and I find it interesting. I'll just say this that of

interesting. I'll just say this that of the ones you mentioned, the Hindu is the

the ones you mentioned, the Hindu is the oldest. Um, and so, uh, as a as a great

oldest. Um, and so, uh, as a as a great segue into what you're about to talk

segue into what you're about to talk about with this ancient history and

about with this ancient history and prehistory and commonalities, uh, it

prehistory and commonalities, uh, it doesn't surprise me, I should say, that

doesn't surprise me, I should say, that the Hindu uh, perspective on reality

the Hindu uh, perspective on reality includes more of these elements than it

includes more of these elements than it doesn't. So, they're a little bit closer

doesn't. So, they're a little bit closer to perhaps uh, what what the truth may

to perhaps uh, what what the truth may have been there. Um, so yeah, I I think

have been there. Um, so yeah, I I think that they're going to handle it fairly

that they're going to handle it fairly well. Um, but I also want to point out

well. Um, but I also want to point out that there is certainly a difference

that there is certainly a difference between uh the the true belief system

between uh the the true belief system and and and and the more secularized

and and and and the more secularized version of these systems that has

version of these systems that has aligned itself with uh the culture at

aligned itself with uh the culture at large. So there is certainly a

large. So there is certainly a distinction to be made there. But I

distinction to be made there. But I think in terms of the beliefs

think in terms of the beliefs themselves, it's certainly more

themselves, it's certainly more accommodating.

accommodating. >> Absolutely agree. Just like we see in

>> Absolutely agree. Just like we see in our own culture, right, where we see

our own culture, right, where we see basically an Americana Christianity that

basically an Americana Christianity that evolves that has little to do with the

evolves that has little to do with the original traditions. Absolutely.

original traditions. Absolutely. All right. So, let's go back to the very

All right. So, let's go back to the very beginning, Nathan, because what I have

beginning, Nathan, because what I have found in my research, and I think anyone

found in my research, and I think anyone who does deep research into the past and

who does deep research into the past and how this might all fit together comes to

how this might all fit together comes to similar, perhaps disconcerting

similar, perhaps disconcerting conclusions, and that is that remarkably

conclusions, and that is that remarkably so across different traditions, and

so across different traditions, and we're talking about our most ancient

we're talking about our most ancient traditions going back into vague

traditions going back into vague memories and perhaps recording of

memories and perhaps recording of prehistory,

prehistory, we see remarkably similar themes and

we see remarkably similar themes and even potentially similar players. is on

even potentially similar players. is on the scene even though they are obviously

the scene even though they are obviously inevitably given different names. But

inevitably given different names. But let's talk about some of the key

let's talk about some of the key patterns across traditions. What are the

patterns across traditions. What are the motifs that show up again and again?

motifs that show up again and again? First of all, we have this notion of

First of all, we have this notion of humans attaining godlike knowledge. I

humans attaining godlike knowledge. I mentioned the garden of Eden earlier.

mentioned the garden of Eden earlier. That's referenced there, but in many

That's referenced there, but in many other traditions, it's referenced. And

other traditions, it's referenced. And in fact, the Christian tradition there

in fact, the Christian tradition there or the Judeo-Christian tradition is

or the Judeo-Christian tradition is actually borrowing from much older

actually borrowing from much older traditions going back ultimately to

traditions going back ultimately to Samaria. So we have this notion of

Samaria. So we have this notion of humans attaining god-like knowledge and

humans attaining god-like knowledge and also that the humans numbers or their

also that the humans numbers or their power, their capabilities begin to alarm

power, their capabilities begin to alarm these godlike beings. Not gods in the

these godlike beings. Not gods in the ultimate sense, but more like a demigod.

ultimate sense, but more like a demigod. These beings that have god-like powers

These beings that have god-like powers in comparison to human beings. We think

in comparison to human beings. We think again about cargo cults that was

again about cargo cults that was referenced by Tom Dong and Peter Levenda

referenced by Tom Dong and Peter Levenda in that series. Similar notion here. So,

in that series. Similar notion here. So, not only do we have references to humans

not only do we have references to humans attaining almost god-like knowledge and

attaining almost god-like knowledge and beings of a different kind that are more

beings of a different kind that are more powerful, being uncomfortable with that,

powerful, being uncomfortable with that, but we also have hybridization and

but we also have hybridization and interbreeding. Where have I heard that

interbreeding. Where have I heard that before? That's right, the modern UFO

before? That's right, the modern UFO phenomenon. That's front and center. And

phenomenon. That's front and center. And we have also some sort of reaction from

we have also some sort of reaction from these higher beings, these more powerful

these higher beings, these more powerful beings. And I want to clarify when I say

beings. And I want to clarify when I say higher, I don't necessarily mean morally

higher, I don't necessarily mean morally or ethically superior. Because as I said

or ethically superior. Because as I said earlier on in the very beginning of our

earlier on in the very beginning of our episode, some of the actions recorded

episode, some of the actions recorded even in scripture point to capriccious

even in scripture point to capriccious behavior, almost ego-driven behavior

behavior, almost ego-driven behavior from some of these beings. So it's not

from some of these beings. So it's not that they're ethically or morally higher

that they're ethically or morally higher than humans. They just have greater

than humans. They just have greater capacities technologically and that kind

capacities technologically and that kind of thing.

of thing. So we have these shared themes across

So we have these shared themes across Sumerian, Babylonian, and Hebrew texts.

Sumerian, Babylonian, and Hebrew texts. There's a recurring motif. Humans or

There's a recurring motif. Humans or lesser beings, if you will, risk

lesser beings, if you will, risk transcending natural or cosmic limits

transcending natural or cosmic limits that have been set. And this prompts

that have been set. And this prompts some sort of divine or overarching

some sort of divine or overarching metaphysical corrective.

metaphysical corrective. The mechanisms of this often are

The mechanisms of this often are restriction, punishment, or controlled

restriction, punishment, or controlled destruction. expulsion from the garden

destruction. expulsion from the garden for instance, floods. We often hear

for instance, floods. We often hear about global floods across different

about global floods across different traditions, even traditions, Nathan,

traditions, even traditions, Nathan, that wouldn't have had access to each

that wouldn't have had access to each other because of geographical distances

other because of geographical distances and that kind of thing. The moral and

and that kind of thing. The moral and cosmological implications,

cosmological implications, knowledge, power, and hybridization are

knowledge, power, and hybridization are thresholds.

thresholds. Once crossed, the hierarchy between

Once crossed, the hierarchy between humans and gods or if you want to say

humans and gods or if you want to say junior gods and senior gods must be

junior gods and senior gods must be restored according to this metaphysical

restored according to this metaphysical superructure.

superructure. So what I have found when I've looked

So what I have found when I've looked into this is that if you try to draw a

into this is that if you try to draw a parallel across these different

parallel across these different traditions, these really ancient

traditions, these really ancient traditions, and you look past some of

traditions, and you look past some of the surface facades in terms of

the surface facades in terms of different names and things like that,

different names and things like that, the puzzle fits surprisingly well,

the puzzle fits surprisingly well, especially at the mythological pattern

especially at the mythological pattern level, more speculatively at the

level, more speculatively at the historical event level. That gets

historical event level. That gets difficult to piece together. But when

difficult to piece together. But when you think about all this and you think

you think about all this and you think about the fact that this might be not

about the fact that this might be not just pointing to similar madeup stories

just pointing to similar madeup stories that maybe got passed down or somehow

that maybe got passed down or somehow crossed different thresholds of

crossed different thresholds of geographic distance, but something that

geographic distance, but something that we were not taught so much as an option

we were not taught so much as an option when we were studying this in religious

when we were studying this in religious studies and that is that it actually

studies and that is that it actually points to a shared history of reality

points to a shared history of reality that points to the very beginning and

that points to the very beginning and also opens up the frame. So, it's not

also opens up the frame. So, it's not just beings on the earth, but

just beings on the earth, but potentially beings coming from beyond.

potentially beings coming from beyond. Something we might even call

Something we might even call interdimensional, even though that was a

interdimensional, even though that was a term that was never introduced to us in

term that was never introduced to us in our religious studies.

our religious studies. Yeah, I think it's these motifs, these

Yeah, I think it's these motifs, these exact motifs that are going to give more

exact motifs that are going to give more power to disclosure. Uh because we'll

power to disclosure. Uh because we'll see

see in disclosure, we'll see the echoes of

in disclosure, we'll see the echoes of these motifs and we'll say, "Ah, well,

these motifs and we'll say, "Ah, well, well, this makes sense now." I mean to

well, this makes sense now." I mean to some degree we've not been able to make

some degree we've not been able to make sense of the things that you just

sense of the things that you just mentioned and we've struggled with these

mentioned and we've struggled with these enigmas of the human uh past the human

enigmas of the human uh past the human ancient human past from architecture to

ancient human past from architecture to uh belief systems behaviors

uh belief systems behaviors uh you know art all these kinds of

uh you know art all these kinds of things that that you know we could we

things that that you know we could we could kind of come up with and we and

could kind of come up with and we and modern you know culture certainly has a

modern you know culture certainly has a lot of handwaving you know so like well

lot of handwaving you know so like well they were all just sort developmentally

they were all just sort developmentally along the same trajectory even though

along the same trajectory even though they were on these, you know,

they were on these, you know, geographically separate continents or

geographically separate continents or whatever. Um, that seems awfully

whatever. Um, that seems awfully convenient to me. uh whereas I think

convenient to me. uh whereas I think what we're going to find is that if if

what we're going to find is that if if if we see in disclosure

if we see in disclosure a mirror of what we see with these

a mirror of what we see with these ancient motifs, it's going to create a

ancient motifs, it's going to create a conviction moment, an aha moment where

conviction moment, an aha moment where we're going to say, "Yeah, actually now

we're going to say, "Yeah, actually now I feel like we understand our history

I feel like we understand our history better than before." It'll be in a way

better than before." It'll be in a way hopefully like awaking from an amnesia,

hopefully like awaking from an amnesia, uh you know, a great awakening. And so

uh you know, a great awakening. And so I'm hopeful and and and that that this

I'm hopeful and and and that that this will be the case. Uh and I think

will be the case. Uh and I think you know I think people are are eager to

you know I think people are are eager to understand that I think that there is a

understand that I think that there is a thirst in the human family for

thirst in the human family for understanding our story in the face of

understanding our story in the face of so much strangeness. You know h how is

so much strangeness. You know h how is it that we are here on this planet? How

it that we are here on this planet? How is it that we are seemingly alone in

is it that we are seemingly alone in this universe? How is it that we have

this universe? How is it that we have these commonalities but we seemingly got

these commonalities but we seemingly got separated uh over all these years? These

separated uh over all these years? These will provide some answers to those

will provide some answers to those questions and I think hopefully unite us

questions and I think hopefully unite us as a species, as a people.

as a species, as a people. Indeed, that would be a beautiful

Indeed, that would be a beautiful arising if that were to happen. Let's

arising if that were to happen. Let's just paint the picture really plainly

just paint the picture really plainly here so we can all reference what we're

here so we can all reference what we're really talking about. We're saying that

really talking about. We're saying that while you can argue that some traditions

while you can argue that some traditions inevitably are basically re-representing

inevitably are basically re-representing an older tradition that they came into

an older tradition that they came into contact with, there are other times

contact with, there are other times where even across continents you see a

where even across continents you see a very similar prehistory described

very similar prehistory described and some of the same figures might be

and some of the same figures might be given different names. So in some

given different names. So in some traditions they might be called the

traditions they might be called the watchers in others the titans in other

watchers in others the titans in other one the usuras in others the anunnaki

one the usuras in others the anunnaki they might be called the nephilim in one

they might be called the nephilim in one tradition and the gigante in another

tradition and the gigante in another tradition but these are all different

tradition but these are all different levels of players that show up over and

levels of players that show up over and over again and the overall theme and

over again and the overall theme and this might sound a bit like Star Wars

this might sound a bit like Star Wars and I might have some people that are

and I might have some people that are either physicists or tend to believe in

either physicists or tend to believe in a conventional framing that is to say a

a conventional framing that is to say a natural istic non-religious framing of

natural istic non-religious framing of reality might b at this. But what we see

reality might b at this. But what we see is a narrative structure involving a

is a narrative structure involving a high older order, a rebellion or war

high older order, a rebellion or war from the underlings, if you will,

from the underlings, if you will, interbreeding or contact with humans,

interbreeding or contact with humans, which both happens and is frowned upon

which both happens and is frowned upon by some of that overarching structure.

by some of that overarching structure. And then ultimately, unlike many of the

And then ultimately, unlike many of the stories we all grew up on, there's the

stories we all grew up on, there's the fall of the rebels and the rise of the

fall of the rebels and the rise of the new order. In other words, the old

new order. In other words, the old control structure resumes its power and

control structure resumes its power and it perhaps operates from behind the

it perhaps operates from behind the scenes. Now, you referenced earlier

scenes. Now, you referenced earlier secular people and how they will have to

secular people and how they will have to deal with this, make sense of it,

deal with this, make sense of it, reconcile it, and it will be deeply

reconcile it, and it will be deeply discombobulating for reasons you just

discombobulating for reasons you just pointed to. Not only have they tended to

pointed to. Not only have they tended to believe that, but their entire life's

believe that, but their entire life's work largely is based on a reality that

work largely is based on a reality that does not depict this, which if this

does not depict this, which if this turns out to be the actual reality, that

turns out to be the actual reality, that will be incredibly shocking and

will be incredibly shocking and concerning and discouraging, I think.

concerning and discouraging, I think. So, the key though is that this is

So, the key though is that this is exactly what you'd expect if multiple

exactly what you'd expect if multiple cultures preserved a distorted memory of

cultures preserved a distorted memory of one original prehistorical encounter or

one original prehistorical encounter or epoch. Epoch in human history. Now,

epoch. Epoch in human history. Now, speaking of history and even potentially

speaking of history and even potentially cycles of history, something else that

cycles of history, something else that you and I have heard talked about in our

you and I have heard talked about in our UFO Twitter circles going back for

UFO Twitter circles going back for several years now is this notion that we

several years now is this notion that we might be approaching an apocalypse. And

might be approaching an apocalypse. And we already referenced how some people

we already referenced how some people within the US government might be trying

within the US government might be trying to usher it in on top of that. But the

to usher it in on top of that. But the furthermore, that might be part of a

furthermore, that might be part of a cyclical apocalypse, a resetting of

cyclical apocalypse, a resetting of humanity.

humanity. So this is interesting because for me I

So this is interesting because for me I think about my experiences outside the

think about my experiences outside the construct where I come back in it's very

construct where I come back in it's very clear to me this is a virtual reality.

clear to me this is a virtual reality. Something I was saying to some people I

Something I was saying to some people I was speaking with yesterday when I was

was speaking with yesterday when I was speaking with the visible college. I

speaking with the visible college. I pointed out that this might not be as

pointed out that this might not be as dark as it might seem because if you

dark as it might seem because if you think about our reality more as an

think about our reality more as an iteration like you have source code and

iteration like you have source code and you iterate it, you let it run out. You

you iterate it, you let it run out. You let the players play out, the characters

let the players play out, the characters play out, but it's all virtual. All of

play out, but it's all virtual. All of us actually maintain a consciousness

us actually maintain a consciousness that's non-local. You could run an

that's non-local. You could run an iteration, see what happens when you

iteration, see what happens when you change the variables. And when you get

change the variables. And when you get to a point where you realize it's not

to a point where you realize it's not turning out so well, it doesn't look

turning out so well, it doesn't look like this is going to be a successful

like this is going to be a successful fruitful enterprise, you might just end

fruitful enterprise, you might just end that branch, reset the code, and start

that branch, reset the code, and start over again. So when we talk about the

over again. So when we talk about the notion that some of these super powerful

notion that some of these super powerful beings, these metaphysical players from

beings, these metaphysical players from outside the construct come in and say,

outside the construct come in and say, "This is a failed experiment. We're

"This is a failed experiment. We're going to reset and through something

going to reset and through something like a global flood, we're going to

like a global flood, we're going to bring them back to cave people."

bring them back to cave people." basically and they start all over again.

basically and they start all over again. We'll see what happens this time. That

We'll see what happens this time. That might not be as dark and nefarious and

might not be as dark and nefarious and discouraging as it might seem at first

discouraging as it might seem at first blush only because I think we have to

blush only because I think we have to ask even deeper questions about not just

ask even deeper questions about not just are who are these beings, but who are

are who are these beings, but who are we? Are we really just these small

we? Are we really just these small players on the scene that have been bred

players on the scene that have been bred like an experiment, like a bacteria we

like an experiment, like a bacteria we might grow in our science lab in high

might grow in our science lab in high school? Or are these just the suits that

school? Or are these just the suits that we're wearing and that ultimately we too

we're wearing and that ultimately we too just like them are source consciousness

just like them are source consciousness and perhaps even and this speaks to

and perhaps even and this speaks to something you and I were talking about

something you and I were talking about before we started recording perhaps we

before we started recording perhaps we even chose to take this role of the

even chose to take this role of the underling because of what we would learn

underling because of what we would learn from the experience. So that switches

from the experience. So that switches things around in terms of the ultimate

things around in terms of the ultimate power structure even though we still

power structure even though we still have to come to grips with what might be

have to come to grips with what might be happening on the ground. What are your

happening on the ground. What are your thoughts on that?

thoughts on that? Yeah, I think that the um the

Yeah, I think that the um the physicalists, the dualists, they're

physicalists, the dualists, they're struggling with this the most that that

struggling with this the most that that uh you know, they're the ones that are

uh you know, they're the ones that are kind of creating the posts that are

kind of creating the posts that are like, you know, what if we're just

like, you know, what if we're just slaves? What if we're just, you know,

slaves? What if we're just, you know, going to be reset and and we're just

going to be reset and and we're just somebody's experiment? We're just rats

somebody's experiment? We're just rats in the maze. I mean, that that's taking

in the maze. I mean, that that's taking a a very scientific worldview 20th 21st

a a very scientific worldview 20th 21st century perspective on the entire

century perspective on the entire enterprise. is it's not looking at it

enterprise. is it's not looking at it from that meta level, that non-dual

from that meta level, that non-dual perspective that we all are the same.

perspective that we all are the same. But I but I think regardless of of

But I but I think regardless of of really one's perspective,

really one's perspective, there is a a a uh a destabilizing,

there is a a a uh a destabilizing, you know, aspect of the of the

you know, aspect of the of the enterprise. And and that is

enterprise. And and that is it's true of of all life really, right?

it's true of of all life really, right? So, you know, we can think about being

So, you know, we can think about being in the womb and it's it's very

in the womb and it's it's very comforting. It's it's very predictable.

comforting. It's it's very predictable. And then there's a destabilizing moment

And then there's a destabilizing moment of birth where we emerge into a whole

of birth where we emerge into a whole new reality. You can think about the egg

new reality. You can think about the egg and and the the chick inside of that egg

and and the the chick inside of that egg as it grows and expands, it eventually

as it grows and expands, it eventually can't live in that shell anymore, breaks

can't live in that shell anymore, breaks the shell and enters into a whole new

the shell and enters into a whole new reality. Or the caterpillar that becomes

reality. Or the caterpillar that becomes the butt butterfly. So, you have all

the butt butterfly. So, you have all these different metaphors for something

these different metaphors for something very similar.

very similar. all of which have moments of extreme

all of which have moments of extreme discomfort. So I think that that's

discomfort. So I think that that's something that we need to take a clue

something that we need to take a clue from, hint from that this is just part

from, hint from that this is just part of the process. And um from a certain

of the process. And um from a certain vantage point, you know, you we talk a

vantage point, you know, you we talk a lot about vantage points and

lot about vantage points and perspectives. And from a certain vantage

perspectives. And from a certain vantage point, it looks like control, right? It

point, it looks like control, right? It looks it appears like I'm caging this

looks it appears like I'm caging this in. I'm controlling this. I'm setting

in. I'm controlling this. I'm setting boundaries. But but from another

boundaries. But but from another perspective, it's an incubation. It's a

perspective, it's an incubation. It's a development. It's a it's a uh a

development. It's a it's a uh a prompting to growth. So all of these

prompting to growth. So all of these things are true. It's not to diminish

things are true. It's not to diminish the trauma that that is experienced at

the trauma that that is experienced at birth. It's not to diminish that at all.

birth. It's not to diminish that at all. It's also not to exalt one aspect of

It's also not to exalt one aspect of that process over another. So it it is

that process over another. So it it is so much more complicated than I think we

so much more complicated than I think we are willing to admit. And that that's

are willing to admit. And that that's because we often in our own lives, we

because we often in our own lives, we flatten our lived experience and we try

flatten our lived experience and we try to push our discomfort, our grief, our

to push our discomfort, our grief, our trauma, our sorrow, our loss. We push

trauma, our sorrow, our loss. We push all of that away. We sweep it under the

all of that away. We sweep it under the rug and we say, "No, everything's fine.

rug and we say, "No, everything's fine. How are you? I'm great." So, we're we're

How are you? I'm great." So, we're we're unwilling to confront this very real

unwilling to confront this very real aspect of ourselves. And that is very

aspect of ourselves. And that is very much present in this entire uh

much present in this entire uh conversation.

conversation. Absolutely. And I think what I would

Absolutely. And I think what I would want to end with here as we get to the

want to end with here as we get to the end of this really vast episode where we

end of this really vast episode where we covered a lot of territory both recent

covered a lot of territory both recent and ancient is to say that I think

and ancient is to say that I think something that people coming from

something that people coming from monotheistic traditions specifically

monotheistic traditions specifically will have to wrestle with and

will have to wrestle with and uncomfortably so is the recognition that

uncomfortably so is the recognition that there is no order being enforced upon

there is no order being enforced upon them. Now, on the one hand, that will be

them. Now, on the one hand, that will be liberating in the sense that you're not

liberating in the sense that you're not in fear of going to some eternal hell

in fear of going to some eternal hell because of something you've done wrong,

because of something you've done wrong, other than the hell that you create in

other than the hell that you create in your own psyche based on the way that

your own psyche based on the way that you make sense of yourself in

you make sense of yourself in relationship to reality. But in truth,

relationship to reality. But in truth, because these are all virtual realities,

because these are all virtual realities, every manifestation, every

every manifestation, every manifestational world is ultimately a

manifestational world is ultimately a virtual reality. Not only is our ancient

virtual reality. Not only is our ancient tradition saying this, but also physics

tradition saying this, but also physics is pointing to this. Astronomy points to

is pointing to this. Astronomy points to the fact that this is likely a hologram.

the fact that this is likely a hologram. Donald Hoffman, who I mentioned earlier,

Donald Hoffman, who I mentioned earlier, his work in terms of neuroscience is

his work in terms of neuroscience is pointing to the fact that consciousness

pointing to the fact that consciousness is primary. The brain doesn't cause

is primary. The brain doesn't cause consciousness. It just attunes it, if

consciousness. It just attunes it, if you will, and largely limits it while

you will, and largely limits it while it's doing that. So, the bottom line is

it's doing that. So, the bottom line is if this is a virtual reality, which I'm

if this is a virtual reality, which I'm thoroughly convinced viscerally so that

thoroughly convinced viscerally so that it is, then you recognize that what you

it is, then you recognize that what you bring to play might be different with

bring to play might be different with that perspective. If nothing is

that perspective. If nothing is ultimately in jeopardy, what might you

ultimately in jeopardy, what might you do? How might you increase the intensity

do? How might you increase the intensity of the game so as to really push the

of the game so as to really push the boundaries to ultimately learn? I would

boundaries to ultimately learn? I would say that in this reality and these kinds

say that in this reality and these kinds of realities, everything that can happen

of realities, everything that can happen does happen in one of these quadrillion

does happen in one of these quadrillion different kinds of reality scapes, some

different kinds of reality scapes, some of which I've actually encountered. But

of which I've actually encountered. But we have to remember that what ultimately

we have to remember that what ultimately drives consciousness development is

drives consciousness development is polarity. We see that in our society

polarity. We see that in our society right now, Nathan. It's easy to be

right now, Nathan. It's easy to be overwhelmed by it. I'm not saying that

overwhelmed by it. I'm not saying that at a certain level we shouldn't be, but

at a certain level we shouldn't be, but we have to remember that it's pressure

we have to remember that it's pressure cookers that create diamonds, not

cookers that create diamonds, not stability and comfort. We are in the

stability and comfort. We are in the midst of that. And if you actually from

midst of that. And if you actually from outside the construct as non-local

outside the construct as non-local consciousness want to see what an

consciousness want to see what an iteration will do when you push these

iteration will do when you push these things to the max, this is the kind of

things to the max, this is the kind of setup you would make. I want to finish

setup you would make. I want to finish with one saying that is often said in

with one saying that is often said in Buddhist circles that I think again some

Buddhist circles that I think again some people from some traditions will wrestle

people from some traditions will wrestle with because it kind of gets to the

with because it kind of gets to the paradoxical nature of what I'm saying

paradoxical nature of what I'm saying here. And the saying goes as follows.

here. And the saying goes as follows. The bad news is that you're falling

The bad news is that you're falling through the air. No parachute.

through the air. No parachute. The good news is that there is no

The good news is that there is no ground.

ground. Really sit with that. And when you think

Really sit with that. And when you think about what you referenced, Nathan, where

about what you referenced, Nathan, where you say some people are saying, "What if

you say some people are saying, "What if we're just an experiment? We're

we're just an experiment? We're property. We're cattle." We hear these

property. We're cattle." We hear these things a lot. I will say this realm is

things a lot. I will say this realm is simultaneously a farm, an experiment, a

simultaneously a farm, an experiment, a school. It's all of the above. Depending

school. It's all of the above. Depending on how you relate to reality,

on how you relate to reality, this is both a huge opportunity and a

this is both a huge opportunity and a huge responsibility. The focus shifts

huge responsibility. The focus shifts when we think about not just them as

when we think about not just them as metaphysical players, but ourselves as

metaphysical players, but ourselves as metaphysical players. We're all going to

metaphysical players. We're all going to have to shift our perspectives, deepen

have to shift our perspectives, deepen our perspectives, and ultimately expand

our perspectives, and ultimately expand our worldview to try to make sense of

our worldview to try to make sense of what is going to be revealed.

what is going to be revealed. >> May some of our questions lead us to

>> May some of our questions lead us to discomfort. May some of our questions

discomfort. May some of our questions create confusion. For the journey is not

create confusion. For the journey is not without peril. May we be willing to be

without peril. May we be willing to be challenged and even disturbed as some of

challenged and even disturbed as some of our greatest growth comes from our

our greatest growth comes from our deepest struggle. We'll see you next

deepest struggle. We'll see you next time on Liinal Frames.

time on Liinal Frames. [Music]

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YouTube Transcript:077 - Deep History & the Control System