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Jordan Peterson: STOP LYING TO YOURSELF! How To Turn Your Life Around In 2024!

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Summary

Core Theme

This content explores strategies for overcoming personal struggles and achieving success by breaking down overwhelming challenges into manageable steps, emphasizing the importance of honesty, self-awareness, and structured problem-solving in both individual growth and interpersonal relationships.

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sometimes it can feel like men and women

in relationships want entirely different

things like they're struggling to

communicate and connect on the same

level about the same set of priorities

Jordan will now explain exactly why that

is but outside of the context of a

relationship all of us struggle in our

lives for a variety of different reasons

and what Jordan's particularly good at

is telling anybody who's right now

listening to this that is struggling in

some way or finds themselves in a

situation where they're struggling to

get out and climb out of that

situation step by step how to do that

how to turn that situation into the

greatest success of your life and that's

why I loved this conversation and why I

think you're going to love it too and

before this episode starts I've got a

10-second favor to ask you that are

listening to this right now 62% roughly

of people that listen to this podcast

haven't yet hit the Subscribe button if

you could do me any favor at all it

would be just to hit that subscribe

button helps this channel immensely and

if you do that for me I promise with my

team to do everything we can to make

this show better and better and better

for you do we have a deal enjoy the [Music]

[Music] episode

episode

Jordan we had a conversation before and

it reached tens of millions of people

and as I went through the feedback and

the comments of that conversation I

found one that really stood out to

me someone said I had just days of will

left in my

body I felt like a

failure I hadn't reached the potential I

knew I had in me despite effort I

couldn't become the person I was so

desperate to

become and then I found

Jordan and his unfiltered words pulled

me from my darkest moment just in time

now my life is in my hands once again

and I've built a career and a life I'm

proud of so thank you Jordan we may

never meet but you've saved my life and

my children still have their father

because of

you it is one hell of an

impact that you've had on just that

single person's life how do you receive

such incredible

feedback from a stranger you've never

met well when when you were reading that

you know I mean it it's obviously a very

positive thing to hear but my mind

immediately went to why that's the case

see I've been in the fortunate position

of being able to

synthesize and then communicate a

centuries worth of clinical research and

experience gathered by very many

extremely intelligent and careful people

and then on top of that whatever I've

managed to gather being reasonably

educated in the broader sphere of the

humanities and Sciences let's say and

the effect that this individual is

attributing to me as a consequence of

that right I've been successful because

I've been a conduit of good ideas and I

have the ability to synthesize a lot of

information and to communicate that to

people in a way that's understandable

the the person who made that comment you

know they were struggling for one reason

or another and one of the things you do

with people who are struggling is you

make the simple even simpler because

then they can get a toe hold you know

like if if they're really barely able to

move I had one client you know he was H

he had a hard life man he was like 85

he'd fallen off a ladder and broken his

neck and they had permanently Fus it so

he was basically like this he could

hardly move he was so depressed he

literally couldn't get out of bed you

know it was awful and he was in chronic

pain because of his broken neck and so

you know the first thing I did with him

was get him to sit up for like 30

seconds that was it that's where he had

to start you know and after I I worked

with him when he was in the hospital

after two weeks he was walking down the

hall and able to sit up and read for you

know five or six minutes and he got out

of the hospital he went home and but he

had to

start with the simplest possible steps

and hey man you start this is the

definition of humility in some ways is

that you start progressing where you can

start I think about this a lot because

there's a lot of people that are

objectively or subjectively down and out

in their lives that's how they feel and

it's often too intimidating to present

them with the idea of climbing Mount

Everest today a proverbial M Everest

like just pick yourself up can go to the

gym and work out be healthy right and

that yeah no that's not going to happen

it's like putting them at the foot of

Mount Everest but the small commitments

we keep to ourself are often really

undervalued because they seem so trivial

like you saying well that's the Casual

contempt that's another aspect of that

well one of the really difficult things

to learn when you're down and out is how

far you're down because it's humiliating

you know I was Ill recently and when I

started to recover I couldn't really I

couldn't really button my shirts I had

to learn to do that again I did I had

forgotten how to put my hands on

keyboard I didn't know where to put my

hands I had to learn to type again now I

hadn't lost all the knowledge and it

came back quite quickly but and the

reason I'm saying that is because one of

the impediments to people who've really

taken a blow in their life is that

things have fallen apart around them so

badly that where they have to start is

humiliating even to consider the rule

it's a pretty straightforward rule when

you want to get back on your feet and

the rule is you have to make the task small

small

enough so that you'll do it no matter

how small that is you know and that can

I I've worked with people I mean one of

the things I've become well known for is

my advice to start by cleaning up your

room but I had plenty of clients who

couldn't they couldn't go home and clean

up their room they hadn't cleaned up

their room for like 20 years for all

sorts of reasons maybe because every

time they did try to do anything

positive in their family no matter what

it was they were immediately punished and

and

undermined and so if they even went home

and dared to start cleaning up the room

they'd face resistance within the family

that was just a manifestation of the

50,000 times they'd been discouraged in

the past but also a move that would

upset the insanity that characterized

the pattern of familial interaction and

so actually when if they even made a

move to clean up their room what they

were doing simultaneously was

confronting the dragon in the family

that had made every single person in

that household insane for like five

generations right so it looks simple

it's not bloody simple and so in a

situation like that you cut it down so

that maybe the first thing they do is

clean up like maybe they look inside one

drawer and see the mess that's there and

just look at it for a minute and think

about how they might reorganize it if

they were going to when people are very

down and out and they decide to make a

move forward in some ways they're facing

the whole panoply of problems that

confront them in in the guise of that

single problem right it's all lurking

behind it right it's like you know they

see the tip of a reptile's tail outside

a gigantic closet let's say and they

look and they think well that's just the

tip of a tail how what harm can it do me

but it's connected to the whole damn

Beast and the advantage to that is that

if you make that first step forward

you're actually advancing in the form of

in the face of all that opposition the

disadvantage is that the first task

seems so small that you literally have

to be on your knees to be humble enough

to lower yourself to take that first

step you know God is that all I can do

I'm so

useless you might even be more useless

than that because you might fail out it

I had lots of clients who would come

back you know we'd make a deal that they

would do something simple I remember one

client is such a comical story in a

terrible dark way you know he was an

overgrown infant and he was 30 he was

still living at home in his messy you

know High School room under the thumb of

his mother conveniently for him CU then

he never had to do anything and he had

managed to entice some girl into

sleeping with him and she got pregnant

now he's going to have a son and had

enough sense to come to me and say you

know I'm kind of a wasil and I've mucked

up my life but maybe I'd like not to

destroy this kid so is there something I

could do to put myself together so you

know we talked that through we

negotiated which is what you do with a

client if you're sensible you know you

lay out the problem first okay what the

hell's wrong with you do you think you

have to listen and listen and listen

while the person unfolds everything that

might be wrong they put all their cards

on the table and then you sort through

and you think well some of that even

they'll figure this out themselves some

of that's not really the central issue

and so you imagine they lay all the

cards on the table and then you kind of

get rid of 90% of them it's a symptom

it's a symptom yeah yeah it's it's it's

it's it doesn't really bother me now

that I've talked about it that doesn't

seem key I think I'm really done with

that that isn't interesting to me but

they'll still have to lay it all out and

then you focus on the problem and then

the next thing you think is ask them is

something this is great General problem

solving strategy is okay

if this could be better as far as you're

concerned what would better look like

and then they have to lay their cards on

the table about that so you do the same

thing and now you have the diagnosis

that's the problem statement and now you

have a

hypothetical uh cure let's say and now

you need a strategy right and that would

be the steps in between the problem and

the final destination then you break

down the steps until you find a step

that they that the person will take you

have to do that experimentally so the

first step for him was to vacuum the

carpet in his in his room and so this is

literally what he did he brought the

vacuum it was a standup vacuum he

brought that into his room but he only

got it to the threshold and then he left

it 45° across the door L leaning and he

walked over it for a whole week and so

then he had to come back and tell me you

know and he was embarrassed he said you

know I got the vacuum cleaner

just to the doorway and I left it there

and then instead of bringing it into my

bedroom I just you know I put an

obstacle in my own path and stepped over

it for a whole week it's a very

humiliating thing CU he knew that his

life was on the line and he knew that

his son's life was on the line and he

knew that he was one useless bastard for

not being able to bring that vacuum

cleaner into the room you know but the

proper interpretation of that in part is

well you got the bloody thing out of the

closet didn't

you you know so what we did was

renegotiate this is called technically

this is called collaborative empiricism

it's a behavioral approach for

clinicians and the the collaboration is

well as I said what's the problem

diagnosis what's the potential solution

the person has to be on board with all

this right I mean they have to be the

people who decide that's the problem you

can't enforce that on them they have to

discover it for themselves and the same

with the solution and the same with the

strategies it's like I don't know what's

right for you I'll listen we can jointly

explore what might be the right vision

for you and then we can break that down

into a strategy but you you have to be

on board with the strategy you have to

feel that this is right for you it's

absolutely 100% crucial that it's

voluntary and then we'll say okay well

maybe this is a solution why don't you

go implement come back next week after

having attempted this let's see how it

went you know and sometimes people come

back and say well you know that went

great and it started me and I did three

other things and you know what we seem

to be on the right track and sometimes

they come back and say nope that didn't

work at all like with the vacuum cleaner

and so then you have to think what you

do in that situation is make the task

smaller if you make the task small

enough I've never seen

anyone not be able to progress if they

made the task small enough but you know

that can be pretty humiliating now the

upside is that once you've take that

first step you've look the beast in the

face and you'll start progressing not

linearly but exponentially in speed so

what's cool is that doesn't really

matter how small that first step is

because it'll start doubling and

anything that d bues grows unbelievably

quickly and so that's a very useful

thing to know too and that that's true

when you're learning anything new it's

like you you'll feel like an impostor

you'll feel like a fool cuz you are and

you'll think I'll never get there and

and it might the destination might look

very distant but if you take a

sufficiently small first step and get

the ball rolling you can be cruising

along at a pretty good rate generally

faster than you'll think what's going on

in one's psychology there is it build

evidence of your own capabilities and

capacity definitely what seems to happen

when you expose people to small but

challenging tasks it does two things it

makes them more skilled because now

they're actually dealing with the

problem and so they're acquiring the new

perceptions and the new behaviors that

are Mastery so they're actually

expanding their domain of conceptual

structures and actions that's that's

both conception and skill but at the

same time they're seeing themselves as

the actors that can change the direction

of their life for example when you do

exposure therapy with people who have

phobias agrop phobia is probably the

best example so agobia is a condition

where people will become so terrified

generally of life that they they often

literally can't go outside their house

if they go outside their house their

anxiety levels climb to the point where

they have a panic attack which is like

the complete disinhibition of the fight

ORF flight system very overwhelming

experience people will go out and

they'll have a panic attack and then

they'll avoid where they had the panic

attack but then the probability of the

panic attack starts to spread so that

wherever they go they have a panic

attack and then they end up stuck at

home and it's quite a common condition

now the people who develop that are

generally women and that's because women

are more sensitive to anxiety than men

they're generally women who had an

over-dependent relationship with their

parents Maybe particularly their father

they're generally women who went from

their father to an to a boyfriend who

was either overbearing and

overprotective or who was enticed into

becoming that by the dependency of the

person of the sufferer and then so

imagine you're dependent young woman you

haven't learned to stand on your two

feet every time you had a problem you

were taught to seek Authority you

sheltered behind the protective walls

that someone else had established for

you you married someone like that now

he's he died or you're getting a divorce

or or so that wall is starting to come

down okay so all that existential Panic

starts to rise you start panicking when

you go out and you end up at home unable

to move also thinking you're the only

person in the world who's suffering that

way and so what you do is you find out

you you you do a problem analysis and

you find out their core fears and what

agrh bics are often afraid of elevators

and that's quite convenient because

you know there are elevators everywhere

so you can start having them confront

Their Fear of elevators so how do you do

that well if they're really

terrified you say well let's look why

don't you come sit by me and and uh

let's look at some pictures of some

elevators and you say look at the

elevator okay now imagine being 20 ft

from it how are you feeling they'll tell

you they're nervous you know they're

afraid they're going to get trapped in

the elevator they're afraid they'll have

a heart attack they'll they're afraid

that they'll be in there with other

people who are watching them panic and

have a heart attack and being humiliated

so the the two big categories of fears

for people are like painful death and

then public humiliation and if you have

a really good anxiety fantasy it's that

you're going to undergo a painful death

in a very humiliating way and so that's

what they imagine happening in the

elevator so it's not exactly that

they're afraid of the elevator right

they're afraid of death and humiliation

and the elevator is a moral to the realm

of death and humiliation it's like I'm

afraid of an elevator okay how afraid

can you could you look at an elevator

from a 100 yards down the hall well like

if it isn't 100 yards then 125 yards

like you'll find some threshold that the

person can tolerate okay so now you're

at the threshold where their the

magnitude of their confidence is

precisely matched with the size of the

apparent Dragon right so and you they

feel that it's like there's a place

where their fear will they'll say that's

close enough it's like okay now you're

on the edge you're on the edge so now

we'll dance on the edge we'll move your

foot forward okay so let's move a foot

forward okay anything NE negative

happening well I'm feeling a little

nervous okay well let's just stand here

for a bit keep your eye on the elevator

don't don't hide because you can avoid

by just not looking and we do this all

the time we look away and the bigger the

dragon the more we're likely to look

away you know people don't people don't

like to look

at and you can understand why people

will avert their eyes from

atrocity right and they'll certainly

avert their eyes from the thought that

they could participate in atrocity and

you could think of that as the Heart of

Darkness it's it isn't because you could

look at the fact that you could take

Glee in the commission of atrocity and

and no one wants to look at that while

you start and you have to look at that

you have to look at that in the final

analysis but one step at a time you know

and and you can do that with any problem

literally any problem break it down

break it down break it down public

speaking anything going to the gym

anything anything a small dose you know

a small dose and it's it's it's so fun

to do this with people it's the same

thing you do when you're when you're

when you're encouraging your your young

child and that's a primary source of

gratification for human beings is

putting someone on the edge and

encouraging them and so you do that as a

clinician so I loved being a clinician

because you know people say well how can

you you know how how do you tolerate

listening to people's problems well

first of all they're not your problems

you have to understand that because if

they're your problems you're still in

that person's problems from them you

know because you could come to me

especially people who are you know very

unsophisticated they can come and talk

to somebody like a a well experienced

clinician someone whose breadth of

knowledge exceeds theirs by a

substantial margin and that person can

just give them advice but then they go

act out that advice and then that's not

them they have to come to it themselves

this brings me to a point about trying

to help people in your life because we

all have people in our lives that are

struggling in some way and our kneejerk

response is to get in there and fix

solve the well this is a problem that

men often have when they're dealing with

women yeah yeah they they leap to the

problem solution phase and they also do

that in some ways to avoid and this is

what annoys women because what the women

want and they don't even know this but

this is what the women want women are

more sensitive to threat than

men okay so they're looking for

Predators now predation detection is a

it's an intuition anxiety is an

intuition something's wrong okay what

well then you guess right so imagine the

threat system has sort of got something

in its sights but it it's a a sense that

something's not right but it's not fully

fleshed out the picture because serpents

are camouflaged right so the threat is

hidden well what the woman wants is to

lay out all the things that might be

wrong okay well the guy doesn't want

that cuz first of all you know maybe

your wife is upset about something in

relationship to your children and she

doesn't know what it is so now she has

to go through everything she thinks that

might be wrong well even for you to

listen that's going to be rough because

some of those things are going to be

about you and so you just have to shut

up and you have to let her put her cards

on the table understanding now she has

to do it in good faith right she can't

be using that opportunity to skewer you

and so these things are tricky to manage

but you want to listen to her lay all

the cards on the table now the advantage

to that is now you know where all the

hidden snakes are now if you do that

what you'll find out and so will she is

that most of the things that she's

worried about she's not actually worried

about she won't know that until she lays

them out on the table and can see them

and then both of you can triangulate to

the actual problem and then you can

negotiate a solution and off offer help

but if you jump right to help the reason

you can't do that is cuz you you

probably have the problem wrong so so

then back to your question about helping

one of the most effective things you can

do to help people is to listen and there

are Technologies of listening and so the

first one is don't assume that either

you or the person who's talking knows

what the problem is it's so hard once

you have the problem specified you've

solved like 95% of the problem it's re

that diagnostic move is really hard are

we sure we're addressing the most

crucial issue you have to have your

sites focused right on the center point

of the Cross right like in a in a Gun

Site it's like are we aiming at the

right Target and then you can start

negotiating problem solution and so so

it's but you can develop the patients to

do that once you understand that that

initial active listening is in itself

the most helpful thing you can do just

listen and then how do you listen Okay

so if I'm listening to you there'll be

times when what you're saying doesn't

make sense and so then I'll just say

well you're saying this now but you said

this five minutes ago and if you listen

a lot you can learn to track

conversations across a very long span of

time and that's quite fun you said this

but then you said this and they don't

like they seem contradictory to to me

you're not accusing the person you're

saying I see an inconsistency in the way

you're formulating the problem and

they'll sort of startle a little bit and

then try to rectify that they'll check

you out to see if you're insulting them

or trying to play a game of moral

superiority first but if it's just an

honest question then you're actually

helping them lay out a description of

the situation that's not internally

contradictory okay so and the great

podcasters do this you see this with

Rogan you know all Rogan does is ask

stupid questions m and the way he does

that is by Consulting with his own

ignorance in humility Rogan is listening

he's thinking I'm a stupid lunkad and I

don't understand this what do you mean

and the what's that's brave because he's

exposing his own ignorance but it's it's

honest because he doesn't understand but

it also unites him with his audience

because especially with someone like

Rogan the probability at this time that

if Rogan doesn't understand the gist of

the conversation that 95% of his

audience doesn't understand is it's like

100% the importance of listening can't

possibly be overstated listen ask

questions until you understand and by

doing that you also help the other

person clarify the situation it is so

hard to do and I I think we have to just

pause it that step because it is as you

said you said like that's 95% of the

challenge it is so hard to do in

relationships in work I've sat literally

at this table with a colleague of mine

about a year ago and she was telling me

she works in one of my compan she was

telling me that she's unhappy in her

role and I remember sitting here and she

gave me a bunch of reasons why and I

kept asking and asking questions and

after just 30 minutes of asking the

questions she had decided that in fact

everything she had just said was not the

issue and then it related back to a much

more fundamental issue of just meaning

in her work well see see okay well

that's very important that's very

important Yung called that a

circumambulation okay so now imagine the

threat system is going off right saying

something's wrong something's wrong

wrong but it it's just it's an it's a

primordial predator predator detection

Instinct that's what's being triggered

it isn't High resol it isn't capable of

high resolution conceptual formulation

not to begin with something's wrong

something's wrong something's wrong okay

what maybe this maybe this maybe this

maybe this maybe this maybe okay now

what happens is the the maybe Circle and

spiral right and as you lay them out you

spiral inward to the gist of the matter

but you have to see because you could

imagine while this woman is explaining

her problems to you she's talking about

things about the company and her

relationship with the company that might

be unsettling to you so you're sitting

there thinking well she's laying out her

problems maybe you're getting defensive

well that's not true the company's

better than that that's an unfair

accusation so you're feeling on the spot

plus you want to jump in with your you

know with your solution because you want

to show that you're bigger than the

problem that she showing her maybe

you're secretly attracted to her and you

want to be a white knight I mean there

can be 50 things you're sitting there

thinking about what you're going to say

next cuz you want to play dominance or

maybe you think that's what you should

do because you're a boss and it's like

there's a lot of things that'll

interfere with listening But but so you

learn you say just shut up ask stupid

questions until really until the person

that you're listening to has specified

the problem now if you're very fortunate

both of you will converge on that it'll

just become clear think oh you and you

pointed this out this is what that's

really all about now the person may be

discovering too that they were resistant

to that conclusion they you know because

the fundamental threat is more key to

their self-esteem that they to their

conception of themsel then allowed them

to be comfortable before they get to the

actual point which is where they're

going to be most vulnerable they're

going to throw out a bunch of screen

concerns just to see if you can be

trusted with something that will reveal

their vulnerability and they're even

doing that to themselves it's like dare

I tell the truth about this situation

because I betrayed myself before so

maybe not you're so right they they test

you to the on the way to the truth to

see if how you'll respond yes and

they're testing themselves too and you

know and you can facilitate that see if

you facilitate that by calm listening

then you're modeling the fact that

whatever the hell they have as a problem

isn't so terrifying that you have to

avoid it and run away yeah right right

it's so interesting what what was

actually revealed because this person

that works one of my marketing teams in

a different company where there's a CEO

said to me um it's the work she they

were doing that was causing them the the

iies and that's the reason they wanted

to leave Etc and I asked them the

question after about 30 minutes when was

the time you were most happy in in the

business they revealed to me that the

time they were most happy was when they

were with me overseas at the very

beginning and what that really revealed

at at its Essence was there had been a

change in the proximity to me and the

real meaning of the work and they now

felt like they were doing trivial things

their happiest time was when they were

right next to me doing the most

important stuff right the so the most

difficult problems they were solving the

most difficult problems when they were

most challenged and they were they were

so really the fix wasn't what they

thought it was the fix and they're now

they actually text me I sent the message

to one of my team members last night

saying I just don't want keep keep their

identities so let's say they were with

me in Canada they text me when they were

most happy they text me last night

saying I feel like Canada Jenny again

right and all the adjustment that had to

be made was getting them back close to

bigger challenges so they wanted to be

closer to the front line as it turned

out when Freud first developed

Psychotherapy he developed this

technique of free

association okay so all free association

is and this is what Freud this is why

people put Freud put people on the couch

and sat be behind them see if I'm face

to face with you and I'm laying out the problem

problem

space just what you're signaling to me

by your face might stop me from fully

revealing the truth because maybe you'll

raise an eyebrow or you there'll be a

micro um expression of disgust or

contempt or you'll look away or because

I'm going to be evaluating you to see

how you're reacting morally to my

Revelations so Freud just hit himself he

and and I I don't think that's strictly necessary

necessary

but but but it's a very wise intuition

and you can imagine how it would be

helpful so now I think the counter to

that is you can signal to someone who

you're talking to like open reception of

the message they're receiving right it's

just that and kids love this right one

of the things kids are doing all the

time is testing you to see if you're

paying attention and they will modify

their behavior in any way imaginable to

get attention there's no it's because

there's no difference between attention

and love by the way like there's no

difference and so I don't think you have

to hide yourself from your client but

that's why Freud did it now what Freud

noticed and the psychoanalysts noticed

is that if you let people free

associate the the topics that they

picked would be linked to one another

that reminds me of this that reminds me

of this that reminds me of this now

obviously because people aren't just

emitting random noises there's a reason

the things they're revealing are linked

there's some implicit similarity that

they're striving toward now often

what'll happen if you listen to your

wife for example she's laying out a

bunch of problems and it'll spiral it'll

remind her of something this off this

happened with Freud if you got to the

gist of it it would remind people of

something that happened to them much

earlier in their life and often

something that was traumatic

that so A trauma is a problem you

encounter in your life that's quite deep

so that it unsettles you that you do not

resolve so it's like it imagine that in

your bedroom there were holes that you

could fall through into you know into

trouble and so you want to make a map of

where all the holes are so that you can

walk through the landscape without

falling into the pit now it' be better

if you just fixed the holes but but at

least you have the landscape mapped out

well a trauma is a a trauma is a hole

that hasn't been filled in and so maybe

you if you had a trauma when you were

four you hit a wall and be you couldn't

resolve the trauma that's no different

than not maturing in relationship to

that problem so what you have at hand

there are the only the tools that you

develop by the time you were four now

then you might encounter a situation

where that's reminiscent of that so for example

example

someone might say I had a problem with

my boss I have a recurring problem with

my boss and so you listen to he says

that that reminds me exactly of what my

father did when I you know in this

situation when I was a kid and so the

reason the person is reacting to their

boss in a negative way is because

they're using the same conceptual

structure that they used to construe

their father when they were four you'll

see this in marriages all the time like

if you have a recurring problem with

your partner that's that that that you

really can't understand now it might be

your fixation at some developmental

stage that's the problem like she's

interacting with you in a way that

elicits your 13-year-old self

consistently but she also might be

reacting to you in a way that elicits

her 13-year-old self and so then but if

you listen to her she'll get to that and

then she'll tell you the story and

then sometimes she'll be able to f

figure out what to do about that herself

or sometimes you'll have to discuss it

but it almost always results in tears

almost always and I think the reason for

that is think that what happens is when

people break down in tears so children

cry quite often and they cry when they

encounter an impediment that they can't

surmount and I think what tears do is

dissolve you to the state of

neurological plasticity that

characterizes Early Childhood so that

you can learn now people don't like that

right that reversion it's humiliating

but you know you have to break that's

the crying the the crying is an

indication that the current conceptual s

structure is insufficient it has to die

then the tears come right and then now

you're prepared neurologically to learn

something new and that'll be whatever

comes out of the discussion and that'll

replace that old conceptual structure

that's outdated and immature with a new

somewhat fragile conceptual structure

right and then the person will try that

out a couple of times like maybe you

this is something where you have it's

like something that's just come out of a

cocoon you have to be very careful when

you negotiate with your partner because

you know maybe they'll decide that

they'll try a new tactic that you you

have both agreed on but the first 30

times they Implement that new tactic

first of all they won't do it very well

because it's new and second if you

punish it it'll kill it right away yeah

so you're describing my relationship

very accurately because I am someone who

in the mid so what's my my sort of

attachment style

I grew up in a household where my

parents were very were at each other a

lot it was fighting arguing so I learned

very early on that relationships are

like prison right so I wanted to

Commitment I I ran from commitment my

whole life I met someone who had an

opposite attachment style where whenever

things get a little bit Rocky she wants

to like latch on in a sense like she

really wants to make sure that I she's

got my attention yeah for example I

could come home and say one word that

shows that I'm focused on my work and

then suddenly she's like fighing for my

attention that makes me want to run and

that makes her want to chase right right

and so then she'll you know she'll get

triggered and then she'll kind of

retreat and be it's quote unquote like

the word sulking is often used um so we

came up with a system where I said to

her when you feel triggered by me not

giving you the attention you want and we

you end up spiraling can you just try

and tell me as soon as possible yeah

instead of like the 7our silence yeah um

so that was the mechanism we came up

with and then the first time she did

that I was as you said very conscious of

making sure I didn't react badly to it

or get triggered by it right so you're

you're describing the process I've been

through entirely yeah well this happens

this happens to everyone and those those

suks let's say that's that's a

non-verbal threat response right right

and and you want to replace that with a

more differential

practical and more immediate strategy

you know and so you know one of the

things that I've seen for example with

my wife is that um the periods of time

where she gets upset shrink and shrink

and shrink and shrink because she can

get from the problem to the verbalizable

statement of the problem and the

solution way way faster but that that

takes just from continual practice

continual attention it's like oh I'm

upset okay well what am I upset about

here's a bunch of things that I might be

upset about okay which of those are

focal like this is something you can

learn you know but you have to you have

to admit you're upset and you also have

to understand that you don't know why

because one of the things that'll happen

in a marriage with any close

relationship with any relationship is

like well if you and I talk and we hit a

pit it's I would rather that it's your

fault right because then you have to

take the conceptual structure and you

have to allow it to die and you have to

cry and you have something to learn and

it's you and it's an indication that

you're insufficient it's way more

convenient for me if it's you plus I get

to feel moral Superior and like I have

myself under control and that I've you

know mastered the universe and also

women also in some ways want that from

men because they want the men to be

competent and so men will pretend to be

more competent than they are it's like

you want to find out what the problem is

because then you can solve it and one of

the things you have to consider is that

you're you're the problem maybe you're

not but maybe you are now you might say

well why should you undergo the

cataclysmic Revelation that you're the

problem and the answer is cuz you could

stop being the problem like that's the

payoff because you might say well why

why attend to your wife why fight and

the answer is so you don't have to fight

again see I know this so I'm a very

agreeable person I don't like conflict

like I'll do almost anything to

not to paper it over though that's the

thing to to fix it but the reason that

I'll engage in conflict is because I

know it isn't a theory I know that

conflict delayed is conflict multiplied

and so if I do have a problem with

someone I want to note it get it on the

table fight it through to the bloody

bottom fix it and move on and there's a

you know that's that's a lot of emotional

emotional

stress and complex reconceptualization

and retooling and people would rather

avoid that you know because you know you

come home from work and your mind is on

something whatever the hell it is and

then this like snake pops up and you

think do we really have to deal with

this now it's like well

maybe and if not now win and that's

something you can also negotiate you

know like I can give you an example of

that so there was a time a very long

time where my daughter was insanely ill

and suffering brutally and deteriorating

at the same time and that's overwhelming

by definition because a problem you

can't solve is overwhelming and then so

the question arises well how do you deal

with the problem that's overwhelming

that you can't

solve without making it worse so one of

the things that Tammy and I did was we

made rules it's like we didn't talk

about Michaela after 8:00 at night it

was just off the table because we knew

well are are you going to are you going

to go to sleep are you going to need

some sleep tonight like if we're going

to battle this for like decades we

better not wear ourselves out okay how

not to well let's make some rules

they're like negotiating rules and you

you can do this this is good advice to

the degree you can give people advice

about a relationship here's something to

understand about your marriage okay you

are going to have to listen to your wife

90 minutes a week okay and you might as

well just get that through your thick

skull now why if you listen to her

enough you can make peace and you can

play so there's a huge benefit if you

don't listen to her that will

accumulate and you'll listen to her in

divorce court like you will eventually

listen and at some point you'll pay for

the privilege of doing so right because

there'll be other people involved and

then the backlog will be so high that

you might never escape from it why don't

men like to

listen well well often because the

insufficiencies are pointed at

them you know and and and sometimes

especially if the woman let's say and

this can go both ways let's be sure

about this but we'll we might as well re

revoke revert to the stereotypes and I

think it's fair because women are more

threat sensitive so they're more likely

to bring up problems now that's the

disadvantage is they bring up problems

that don't exist because that's a false

positive but the advantage is they bring

up problems before you're sensitive

enough to see them and so this is very

important if you think about the role of

women is the woman is closer to the

infant than

you okay so you're you know doing

whatever the hell you're doing you're

concentrating on your career you know

you're not especially when the infant's

under a year old you're a step removed

now and good you can be dealing with the

external world but she's concentrating

on the little kids and one of the things

you want to hear from her is what the

hell's wrong with the kids before you're

wise enough to see it now the price you

pay for that is she might be short out

about things that don't exist so you

know and this is especially true if your

wife is high in neuroticism and it could

be true if the husband is too but as I

said that's the more stereotypical

situation so why listen to get to the

signal now will she get to the signal

yes although she might not be very good

at that and it might take a lot of

listening but if you listen long enough

she'll get better and better at it until

she'll get like really good at it and

then the time between the emergence of

the problem and the solution will just

it'll collapse to the point where it's

virtually immediate now that can take

that's a very high level of Mastery that

can take a very long time but then you

know you also want to put forward to

your wife and yourself the proposition

that you're better than you are which is

well I can okay I get the problem I can

solve it it's like no you probably don't

get the problem and even if you did it

isn't necessarily the case that you

could solve it and so you have to put up

with the fact that you're going to have

to be dragged through the mud uh because

she's going to point to you know maybe

her kid's upset because you're a Tyrant

and you probably are a tyrant to some

degree you know clomping around

overconfident and all that and so she's

going to poke you well maybe you're this

is how you're stupid and maybe this is

how you're stupid and maybe this is how

you're long list of potential ways and

actual ways you could be stupid so you

have to listen to that

now your wife has to act in good faith

you know one of the things that Tammy

and I did when we first got married

because I i' thought a lot of this

through before we got married I said

look you know if we're going to do this

you you have to tell me the truth I

don't care what it is you I'll tell you

the truth but you have to tell me the

truth I don't care what the truth is but

it has to be true right and so that's

without that you get nowhere and you

can't trust your partner either and so

your partner has to be all in that's why

you have a marriage vow because the

marriage vow is basically this this is The

The

Vow no matter what you tell tell me I

won't run

away and that's a of a vow man

because when when someone unveils their

whole heart they unveil themselves all

the way down to hell it's not pleasant

it's awful and so they need to know that

you will not run away and that's a vow

because what do you know look the

person's always going to be thinking

always if you really knew who I was you

wouldn't love me you wouldn't be with me

and you know

hey fair enough cuz people are full of

snakes and if all those snakes were

revealed perhaps the logical thing to do

would run would be to run and so then

you might not you might say well why not

run it's like well you want to run from

everyone for the rest of your life you

want to forgo the advantages of a

permanent relationship and you're full

of snakes too so you're both making a Bad

Bad

Bet and so you make the Bad Bet based

based on the idea that if you are

faithful and you are truthful that you

can resolve the issues and you can it's

a good deal resolving

issues much of what you've talked about

stems back to Childhood trauma and

things that happen in our our formative

years I often wonder those holes in the

bedroom floor you describe the early

traumas can we they're often in the

bedroom floor by the way yeah you bet

can we ever fill those or can we just

put planks of wood over oh no no no you

you can't put planks of wood over them

you have to fill them and what you do oh

and and you can do this you know let's

say you were bullied repeatedly when you

were a kid okay you're probably still

being bullied because if you

didn't being a bully victim is a stable

trait so the great analysis of bullies

that have been done Dan olis in Sweden

did this he was a great psychologist he

analyzed bullying behavior and Bully

victim Behavior so he defined bullying

very carefully you're a bully if you use power

power

disproportionately so like if I'm 12 and

I'm picking on someone my own size I'm

not a bully right because there's a the

risk to me is commensurate to the risk

to them that's just aggression that's

just competition and even if it's

violent it's not bullying a bully is

when I'm 12 and you're eight or when

there's two of us and one of you or when

I get you in a position where you're

completely vulnerable and can't defend

yourself disproportionate use of force

right bully victim is someone the

bullies will check out imagine a bully

comes into a room full of kids he'll

poke at all the kids and one of the kids

will manifest a disproportionate

emotional response well then it's like

he just zeros in on that and those are

often kids who are higher in neuroticism

or who are fragile for other reasons and

then that can become permanent and both

the bullies and the bully victims have a

negative long-term developmental

trajectory the bullies tend to become

criminal and alienated on that front

especially as they move into high school

and the bully victims tend to become

depressed anxious and dependent if you

have a partner who's been a bully victim

for example that's going to be brought

into your marriage and then one of the

things that's going to happen is every

time you try to have a dispute which is

to actually think and solve a problem

they're going to see you through the

bully template they're going to treat

you like you're a bully they're going to

accuse you of being a bully they're

going to bring up all the times before

when you acted like a bully and then

you're going to have to defend yourself

and part of the reason that people can't

listen is because they also don't know

how to defend themselves it's like

especially if you're here's 15 pieces of

evidence that you're a bully it's like

can you counter those maybe what if

you're not very articulate you know it

might take you two weeks to think up how

to argue yourself out of that plus

you're going to be doubtful about it you

know so those are very complicated

things to work through but you can

listen if you listen the person will

dispense with some of their accusations

by themselves the accusations that can't

be dispensed with though now those are

questions you know maybe your kid's

upset when they he or she's interacting

with you and your wife says well you're

too hard on him it's like well are you

well it's time for you to go away for

like a week and meditate on that right

and that's that's soul searching right

you're going to go down to the bottom of

your hearts like well are you a bully

are you a bully like your father was a

bully you know are you a bully like a

friend was a reprobate that you admired

and tried to copy was a bully you know

you have to see because maybe you are

maybe you should stop but then you also

have to figure out how you would be if

you weren't being a bully then your wife

can help you you know and this is

another good rule for couple conflict

like let's say I'm unhappy with you say

so I come and tell you that you can ask

me okay what do you

want if I could give you what you

wanted what would it be well I don't

know it's like no sorry I cannot hit a

Target you won't specify let's discuss

it at least we got to have a Target here

and so this is also if you're an

employee you got to know this if you're

an employee you're going to your boss

with a problem why do you go with a

solution too you know and if you're the

sort of employee who goes to your boss

with a solution you'll racket yourself

up the hierarchy if you're in a halfways

decent business you will ratchet

yourself up the hierarchy so fast you

can't believe it cuz you'll get a

reputation as the person who can solve

the problem so and you know and you can

actually play with this in in in your

marriage because one of the things that

you can do for example is well let's say

you say something that irritated your

wife okay and then you can say okay

she'll say well that really bothered me

it's like okay it's an open question why

maybe she's too goddamn sensitive and

maybe you're too much of a son of a

it's like who knows right but you

can ask her okay if I had said what you

wanted me to say in that situation what

would have I said now that's a hard

question she has to think about that

it's like well what would what would

have worked and then she'll say you know

well maybe you could have said this and

then you can say okay let me say it now

then she asked and but it's sort of like

let me say it it'll be sort of

fake it'll be a first pass

approximation you're putting words in my

mouth but let's assume that I'm trying

to do something better stupidly and

badly to begin with you know with an eye

to mastering it over 50 repetitions so

but I'll start by just saying it so

she'll tell you what to say and you can

say it now if you're absolutely 100%

unwilling to say it because you think it

violates your conscience that's a whole

different issue that means there's a

deeper discussion to be had but maybe

you could try it you know you could try

it out for size and maybe she could see

if that sort of satisfied her and now

you've got a rubric for for how that

interaction might go in the future let's

make it

concrete you come home at the end of a

workday okay there should be there's a

right way of doing that that you have to

negotiate with your wife you know maybe

she rushes to the door and meets you

with all the problems of the day okay

that's probably not a great strategy you

know cuz you're already up to here

you're tired so is she likely from

whatever she was doing maybe maybe she

was at work too you can't meet each

other when you're both tired every

single day for the rest of your life

with nothing but a ball of problems

partly because if you do that 50 times

you're going to view the person as just

a a bunch of snakes that are coming at

you that's not good even if the problems

that are being pointed to are real you

know you might think okay so you come

home after

work what would be the best way for that

to unfold and you have to negotiate that

and I would say we you know let's

parameterize that a bit you're probably

hungry well you don't want to talk to

someone this is another great rule don't

talk to your partner about something

complicated when they're hungry it's not

going to work so maybe you come home you

have something to eat you kick off your

shoes maybe you take 10 minutes for

yourself and then you can talk but you

you want to get that right or maybe you

come home you meet each other at the

door she gives you a hug you have

something to eat you relax for a minute

maybe you have a shower but then you've

already negotiated about when you're

going to have a conversation and you're

going to be prepared for it now people

do this in their business

you don't just randomly discuss a bunch

of problems at your business if it's

running reasonably well you have a

meeting it's parameterized you kind of

have an agenda you have to do that at

home you have your your home is also a

small business and it has to be run like

that and you have to spend 90 minutes at

least 90 minutes a week with your wife

just running the damn business and I can

tell you if you don't do that you'll

never get to the play ever cuz maybe

you'll you know you'll be Roman Al

interested in each other and you you

want to spend some time together but

there's a bunch of problems brewing and

your wife will definitely do this will

absolutely happen is that when you're

trying to be interested in each other

these things will come into her mind and

distract her and she'll bring them up

and then you'll get pissed off because

it's like well we're supposed to be

having fun at we're supposed to be

attending to each other why are you

bringing that up and the answer

is well we're together and these are

problems we haven't set aside time to

deal with them the reason you should

listen to your wife is because if you

listen to her enough she'll tell you

what's wrong and what she wants and then

you can fix what's wrong and you can

give her what she

wants in your practice have you ever

encountered those holes in the bedroom

those childhood traumas that you

realized at some point when you stared

into the patient's eyes they could never solve

solve yes

yes

yes yeah a bottomless

Abyss yeah it's

awful yeah I was in situations where you

know I I get to the bottom of it I

thought and

then it was like Dante's so Dante's

Inferno for everyone who is reading

listening you you should read that book

Dante's Inferno is a Topography of

hell so underneath every problem is

layers of problems right right to the

bottom for Dante the worst problem was

betrayal right and the reason betrayals

the worst problem is like if you and I

want to have a relationship we have to

trust each other and betrayal is the

violation of the trust upon which

relationships are predicated so it blows

apart everything so the lowest level of

hell for Dante the bottom of hell was

filled with betrayers and that's right

that's childhood sexual abuse like it's

the ultimate betrayal right it's the

it's the a child sexual predator is

someone who takes the role of Guardian

to be the wolf right it's the worst form

of betrayal and so it just devastates

children and because they're actually

faced with the problem of malevolence at

a very early age and they what they it's

like you're four and now you see the

bottom of Hell well that's trauma and

the only the way you treat that by the

way is you walk people through a

Topography of hell that's what you do

and and you can do that well let's say

you were abused when you were a kid okay

so what's your problem well your problem

is you've seen Into the Heart of

Darkness that's your problem and just

blew you into pieces could people really

be like that is that my

father right is that my uncle how could

he do that well that's you're gazing

into the face of malevolence itself you

have to develop a philosophy of Good and

Evil it's a religious philosophy

essentially because a philosophy of Good

and Evil is a religious philosophy those

are the same thing you have to you have

to develop a philosophy of evil and then

you have to understand how you combat

that and that's very complicated now how

do you combat evil with truth with love

with beauty you have to start to embody

that you know or maybe it's even worse

you're traumatized because you did

something like brutal seriously brutal

and maybe you enjoyed it that's a very

common Pathway to post-traumatic stress

disorder for people and that

posttraumatic stress disorder occurs

when you have a very large hole that you

know gapes large enough to swallow virtu

virtually everything that hasn't been

fixed or papered over you do that by

finding your way out of hell and that's

what happens in in The Inferno too Dante

is guided through Hell by Virgil who's

the spirit that guides you through hell

that's a good way of thinking about it

so and every problem if the problems

your wife brings to you especially if

they repeat there are levels underneath

that and at the bottom there's a

betrayal something like that there's

some bit of Hell in there somewhere and

so and sometimes you know if you go all

the way to the bottom and you solve that

bottom problem you'll solve a whole

bunch of peripheral

problems so in there's a movie

Apocalypse Now that's about a journey to

the Heart of Darkness and that's what

the book is about con Joseph Conrad's

book and there's a documentary called

Heart of Darkness that describes the

making of Apocalypse Now and the people

who made Apocalypse Now which was a

movie about a journey to the Heart of

Darkness it had an effect on them while

they were making the movie and all of

the people that were acting in the movie

and directing and producing and

financing all went on a journey to the

Heart of Darkness inside and it

virtually killed them one of them had a

heart attack ATT one of them went

completely broke like they just had a

catastrophe when they were making this

movie they fell into its archetypal

clutches Heart of Darkness is the name

of the documentary it's fascinating have

you been on that Journey yourself yeah yeah

yeah

yeah sort of I would say in some ways

permanently when I when back when I was

20 something like that 20 I started

studying atrocity right and so I was

I've always been interested in

the Holocaust osz in particular but it's

a very particular

interest like

evil Nazi Germany

Germany

owitz prison guard prison guard who

enjoyed his work right because my my

question was how could you be an owitz

prison guard who enjoyed his work now

one answer is well you're just like a

demon from another planet who's so

unlike me that I don't even have to

worry about it

and that's a very convenient answer but

it's not

true many many many many of the people

not all many of the people who were

involved in the Nazi atrocities were

perfectly Ordinary People they were just

like you and you think no I wouldn't do

that it's like that's not what the evidence

evidence

suggests the evidence suggests that the

vast majority of people in Nazi Germany

went along with it now not all of them

were dragged into the abyss itself but

plenty were and if you think you

wouldn't have been one of them that just

means it's highly likely that you would

have because you have no idea what

you're capable of there's a great book

about that it's terrifying book called

Ordinary men and it's about the

initiation of a police Battalion from

Germany who went to Poland after the

Germans marched into Poland now these

were ordinary men they were policemen

middle-aged who had grown up before the

Nazi propaganda Mill got going okay so

so they weren't indoctrinated Nazis from

like the time they were four they're just ordinary middle class guys plus

just ordinary middle class guys plus their Commander told them in Poland when

their Commander told them in Poland when they were starting to do military work

they were starting to do military work even though they were civilian policemen

even though they were civilian policemen that they could go home that they didn't

that they could go home that they didn't have to do this job and that there would

have to do this job and that there would be no repercussions and in fact out of

be no repercussions and in fact out of the Battalion a number of men right at

the Battalion a number of men right at the beginning said I'm not doing this

the beginning said I'm not doing this and they went home Mo the vast majority

and they went home Mo the vast majority went along now why okay so now these

went along now why okay so now these policemen are in Poland and they've been

policemen are in Poland and they've been told a story which is that you know

told a story which is that you know Germany's at War and the reason for that

Germany's at War and the reason for that is that evil Jews have conspired up a

is that evil Jews have conspired up a you know a conspiracy and they've United

you know a conspiracy and they've United the Western World against us and they're

the Western World against us and they're a fifth column within the country and

a fifth column within the country and your patriotic duty is to root them out

your patriotic duty is to root them out now that we're in Poland and you're

now that we're in Poland and you're saving the Fatherland and there's going

saving the Fatherland and there's going to be Dirty Work associated with it and

to be Dirty Work associated with it and do you really want to leave all that to

do you really want to leave all that to your compatriots you know your

your compatriots you know your companions your your guys cuz like if if

companions your your guys cuz like if if you and I are together and someone that

you and I are together and someone that we're working for presents us with a

we're working for presents us with a dirty job and I say well I'm not doing

dirty job and I say well I'm not doing that well then I leave it to you so

that well then I leave it to you so there's a kind of betrayal that's built

there's a kind of betrayal that's built into that now the guys that left thought

into that now the guys that left thought I don't care I'm not doing this but most

I don't care I'm not doing this but most people didn't and part of the reason

people didn't and part of the reason they didn't do it is because they were

they didn't do it is because they were loyal to their to their peers by the end

loyal to their to their peers by the end of this which took months these guys

of this which took months these guys were taking n naked pregnant women out

were taking n naked pregnant women out into the middle of fields and shooting

into the middle of fields and shooting them in the back of the head like and be

them in the back of the head like and be becoming violently ill because of doing

becoming violently ill because of doing so and tearing themselves into shreds

so and tearing themselves into shreds internally like sick sick at

internally like sick sick at heart but doing it and that's a it's a

heart but doing it and that's a it's a terrible thing to look at and I started

terrible thing to look at and I started looking at that like it's 40 years ago

looking at that like it's 40 years ago now you know was

now you know was shocking and so what did I discover well

shocking and so what did I discover well I discovered a lot of things I

I discovered a lot of things I discovered that the ro road to

discovered that the ro road to totalitarian hell and atrocity is paved

totalitarian hell and atrocity is paved with lies like lies are the pathway to

with lies like lies are the pathway to hell

hell really like practically and

really like practically and metaphysically and so one of the things

metaphysically and so one of the things I decided this was in 1985 was that I

I decided this was in 1985 was that I was not I was going to stop lying what

was not I was going to stop lying what does that mean

does that mean practically lies ruin your

practically lies ruin your life there's so you will not accept a

life there's so you will not accept a white lie you won't C well look a white

white lie you won't C well look a white lie is worse than better than a black

lie is worse than better than a black lie but

lie but look if you're really telling the truth

look if you're really telling the truth you're serving Truth at every level of

you're serving Truth at every level of analysis simultan ously it's right so if

analysis simultan ously it's right so if if my words are landing properly they're

if my words are landing properly they're going to be the words that work right

going to be the words that work right now and tomorrow and a week from now and

now and tomorrow and a week from now and a month from now and they're going to

a month from now and they're going to work for me and they're going to work

work for me and they're going to work for you so a true statement has levels

for you so a true statement has levels of application and a white lie is a

of application and a white lie is a statement that's true at one level and

statement that's true at one level and false at another now you might not be

false at another now you might not be able to maybe you don't have the

able to maybe you don't have the wherewithal at that moment to come up

wherewithal at that moment to come up with the statement that satisfies all

with the statement that satisfies all the truth conditions at every level and

the truth conditions at every level and so you default to the best you can

so you default to the best you can manage you know your wife says do I look

manage you know your wife says do I look fat in this dress you know or or maybe

fat in this dress you know or or maybe she says how do I look in this dress and

she says how do I look in this dress and you think you don't like that dress and

you think you don't like that dress and you know the easy thing to do is to say

you know the easy thing to do is to say I love it dear whatever you want or you

I love it dear whatever you want or you know of course not but that's and that's

know of course not but that's and that's a white lie but that's not the optimal

a white lie but that's not the optimal answer like a better answer to that is

answer like a better answer to that is um don't ask me questions like

um don't ask me questions like that and then you can have a discussion

that and then you can have a discussion about it see the thing is I've done I've

about it see the thing is I've done I've bought a lot of clothes for my wife I

bought a lot of clothes for my wife I like clothes shopping for my wife and I

like clothes shopping for my wife and I tell her how I think she looks and the

tell her how I think she looks and the advantage to that is that if I tell her

advantage to that is that if I tell her that she looks good she knows I mean it

that she looks good she knows I mean it right I'm not muddying up the water and

right I'm not muddying up the water and if I have to say something I mean I it's

if I have to say something I mean I it's not like I the number of times that I've

not like I the number of times that I've told her that I'm not happy with the way

told her that I'm not happy with the way she's presenting it like it's it's

she's presenting it like it's it's virtually that virtually never happen

virtually that virtually never happen she actually has extremely good taste

she actually has extremely good taste and so it's just an example but if

and so it's just an example but if you're forced into a situation where you

you're forced into a situation where you have to tell a white lie there's snakes

have to tell a white lie there's snakes somewhere that you haven't dealt with

somewhere that you haven't dealt with and maybe the best you can do and that's

and maybe the best you can do and that's Leonard Cohen the poet said there's no

Leonard Cohen the poet said there's no decent place to stand in a massacre you

decent place to stand in a massacre you may have already compromised yourself to

may have already compromised yourself to the point where in that situation the

the point where in that situation the best you can do is a lie but that means

best you can do is a lie but that means that you shouldn't have Bloody well

that you shouldn't have Bloody well being there to begin with and the

being there to begin with and the antidote in many respects is honesty

antidote in many respects is honesty further Upstream honesty with yourself

further Upstream honesty with yourself and others further Upstream you can get

and others further Upstream you can get yourself in positions where all of your

yourself in positions where all of your options are bad and what that means is

options are bad and what that means is exactly as you pointed out you did

exactly as you pointed out you did something Upstream man now one of the

something Upstream man now one of the things you do in therapy is you find out

things you do in therapy is you find out what people did Upstream you know and

what people did Upstream you know and you'll find this in your discussions

you'll find this in your discussions with your wife there'll be a problem and

with your wife there'll be a problem and as you Circle towards it you'll see

as you Circle towards it you'll see oh this is where I made a mistake right

oh this is where I made a mistake right this is what's wrong with me and then

this is what's wrong with me and then you can even you can even find out if

you can even you can even find out if you look you can you can go back into

you look you can you can go back into your past and you can think oh yeah

your past and you can think oh yeah that's when I made that decision I knew

that's when I made that decision I knew when I made it it was bad decision you

when I made it it was bad decision you know and your life is full of the

know and your life is full of the consequences of decisions you took in

consequences of decisions you took in the past that put you on the wrong

the past that put you on the wrong path and you said we were talking about

path and you said we were talking about repairing things what you do is you go

repairing things what you do is you go back to where you made the mistake you

back to where you made the mistake you figure out what the mistake

figure out what the mistake was you know there's this cartoon trope

was you know there's this cartoon trope that there's an angel on one shoulder

that there's an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other well you come

and a devil on the other well you come to a crossroad that's also where you

to a crossroad that's also where you meet the devil go this way or that way

meet the devil go this way or that way if you go the wrong direction your life

if you go the wrong direction your life will be then the consequences of that

will be then the consequences of that bad choice and then that will tangle you

bad choice and then that will tangle you up and then you'll suffer for it then

up and then you'll suffer for it then you have to figure out okay what's the

you have to figure out okay what's the suffering what's the problem when did I

suffering what's the problem when did I make the bad choice which road should

make the bad choice which road should have I taken that's how you fix a trauma

have I taken that's how you fix a trauma you you replace the road you did take

you you replace the road you did take with the road you you should have taken

with the road you you should have taken and now you have a road forward and once

and now you have a road forward and once you have a road forward the trauma is no

you have a road forward the trauma is no longer traumatic because you have a road

longer traumatic because you have a road your brain brings up the

your brain brings up the past because you have not specified the

past because you have not specified the proper Road forward you go back into the

proper Road forward you go back into the road you took that was the wrong road

road you took that was the wrong road you find out what the right Road was now

you find out what the right Road was now you've you've atoned you've

you've you've atoned you've confessed you've repented and you have

confessed you've repented and you have specified the proper pathway forward and

specified the proper pathway forward and that's what you do when you negotiate a

that's what you do when you negotiate a solution to a problem with your wife too

solution to a problem with your wife too here's what we're do here's the problem

here's what we're do here's the problem here's what we did wrong here's what

here's what we did wrong here's what we'll try to do in the future and if

we'll try to do in the future and if that new future Map works that past

that new future Map works that past trauma will be rendered

trauma will be rendered irrelevant as you know because I've been

irrelevant as you know because I've been sent thousands of messages these

sent thousands of messages these conversation cards sell out

conversation cards sell out exceptionally quick so here's the deal

exceptionally quick so here's the deal I'm going to make with you if you join

I'm going to make with you if you join the waiting list which is in the

the waiting list which is in the description below you will get sent

description below you will get sent access to buy these conversation cards

access to buy these conversation cards one hour before anybody else they're in

one hour before anybody else they're in limited Supply so if you really do want

limited Supply so if you really do want to get your hands on them please do add

to get your hands on them please do add your name to the waiting list in the

your name to the waiting list in the description below and you can find that

description below and you can find that waiting list at theconversation

waiting list at theconversation cards.com but I'll also include it in

cards.com but I'll also include it in the description below wherever you're

the description below wherever you're listening to this episode how much do

listening to this episode how much do you really know about your health for me

you really know about your health for me the answer was simple the answer was

the answer was simple the answer was very little until whoop came along as

very little until whoop came along as you guys know they sponsored the this

you guys know they sponsored the this podcast but even before then whoop was

podcast but even before then whoop was integral for me to know what's going on

integral for me to know what's going on inside my body most of my friends my

inside my body most of my friends my family and my team now use whoop but I

family and my team now use whoop but I still have a few friends that are on the

still have a few friends that are on the fence about getting on board and what I

fence about getting on board and what I hear from some of those friends is that

hear from some of those friends is that they're a little bit worried about what

they're a little bit worried about what they might see in the data and they

they might see in the data and they might feel uncomfortable about knowing

might feel uncomfortable about knowing what's going on inside their body if I

what's going on inside their body if I have learned anything it is that

have learned anything it is that knowledge is power and once I finally

knowledge is power and once I finally started to look at the data and

started to look at the data and understand how getting less sleep was

understand how getting less sleep was affecting my body and how my old

affecting my body and how my old lifestyle was actually hurting my

lifestyle was actually hurting my long-term Health everything changed for

long-term Health everything changed for the better so if this is something that

the better so if this is something that you'd like to try out head over to join.

you'd like to try out head over to join. whoop.com

whoop.com CEO and you'll get to try whoop for 30

CEO and you'll get to try whoop for 30 days risk-free with zero commitment try

days risk-free with zero commitment try it and let me know how you get on I was

it and let me know how you get on I was looking at our past conversation and I

looking at our past conversation and I thought it would be interesting to see

thought it would be interesting to see who the audience were that their

who the audience were that their demographic and the the age group were

demographic and the the age group were 20 to 40 year olds really 18 to 40 year

20 to 40 year olds really 18 to 40 year olds my question to you is in their

olds my question to you is in their lives in that demographics lives what do

lives in that demographics lives what do you think the biggest challenge is

you think the biggest challenge is because your both your kids Julian and

because your both your kids Julian and Michaela both fit into that that

Michaela both fit into that that category as well what is the greatest

category as well what is the greatest challenge that that demographic face

challenge that that demographic face well the biggest challenges we had with

well the biggest challenges we had with our kids was see I think the big biggest

our kids was see I think the big biggest challenge I had in my generation was

challenge I had in my generation was negotiating the years between 13 and 15

negotiating the years between 13 and 15 something like that but my sense is now

something like that but my sense is now the biggest challenge to young people is

the biggest challenge to young people is negotiating the transition into

negotiating the transition into adulthood into adulthood identity and I

adulthood into adulthood identity and I think that's partly why we

think that's partly why we have this terrible war in our culture

have this terrible war in our culture about what constitutes identity and I

about what constitutes identity and I think the reason that identity has

think the reason that identity has become such a problem is that our

become such a problem is that our concepts of identity are unbelievably

concepts of identity are unbelievably unsophisticated narrow hedonistic and

unsophisticated narrow hedonistic and self-serving so the identity groups that

self-serving so the identity groups that have popped up are all you could say

have popped up are all you could say whim based identity groups they're

whim based identity groups they're sexual identity say or something

sexual identity say or something arbitrary like sex like SE sex or race

arbitrary like sex like SE sex or race or ethnicity something arbitrary but the

or ethnicity something arbitrary but the sexual identity groups are particularly

sexual identity groups are particularly interesting because the idea that that's

interesting because the idea that that's your identity is predicated on the

your identity is predicated on the notion that there isn't anything more

notion that there isn't anything more vital to you than your than the

vital to you than your than the immediacy of your sexual behavior well

immediacy of your sexual behavior well you're not a sex machine you're not a

you're not a sex machine you're not a short-term sex machine that's not what a

short-term sex machine that's not what a human being is so if you revert to that

human being is so if you revert to that all you're going to do is produce like

all you're going to do is produce like anxiety hopelessness and misery it's not

anxiety hopelessness and misery it's not a good solution so then you might say

a good solution so then you might say well what's the solution and the

well what's the solution and the solution is something called a

solution is something called a subsidiary solution it's like so what's

subsidiary solution it's like so what's your identity well you should get your

your identity well you should get your act together and take care of yourself

act together and take care of yourself so you have to integrate yourself you

so you have to integrate yourself you have to integrate across anxiety and

have to integrate across anxiety and hatred and pain and jealousy and fear

hatred and pain and jealousy and fear and hunger and lust and all the that

and hunger and lust and all the that that plethora of spirits that wage war

that plethora of spirits that wage war within you it's a lot it's a lot you

within you it's a lot it's a lot you have to bring that into a Unity okay and

have to bring that into a Unity okay and one of the things n said the famous

one of the things n said the famous German philosopher was that every Drive

German philosopher was that every Drive attempts to philosophize in its spirit

attempts to philosophize in its spirit so all those subsidiar sub subordinate

so all those subsidiar sub subordinate spirits that war inside you will try to

spirits that war inside you will try to dominate I'm only my anger I'm or rage

dominate I'm only my anger I'm or rage that's the protester type you know I'm

that's the protester type you know I'm only my sexuality I'm only my my my

only my sexuality I'm only my my my appetite that's the consumer model but

appetite that's the consumer model but all that has to be integrated and then

all that has to be integrated and then you might say well integrated into what

you might say well integrated into what well integrated into a structure that

well integrated into a structure that serves all of those Spirits

serves all of those Spirits simultaneously and harmoniously across a

simultaneously and harmoniously across a long time that's maturity okay but that

long time that's maturity okay but that doesn't happen in

doesn't happen in isolation so then the next there's

isolation so then the next there's stages above that okay so the next is

stages above that okay so the next is maybe you've got your act together

maybe you've got your act together enough so that someone can tolerate

enough so that someone can tolerate being around you so that so there's

being around you so that so there's enough left over from you so you can

enough left over from you so you can play with someone else so you establish

play with someone else so you establish a relationship marriage let's say you

a relationship marriage let's say you invite someone else to join forces with

invite someone else to join forces with you you produce a United Vision okay so

you you produce a United Vision okay so now there's you and there's you as

now there's you and there's you as husband and it's the

husband and it's the joint interplay of those that's now your

joint interplay of those that's now your identity okay and so now you have a role

identity okay and so now you have a role and you have obl ation and

and you have obl ation and responsibilities and opportunities you

responsibilities and opportunities you know you say well I'm constrained by my

know you say well I'm constrained by my marriage you know there's all sorts of

marriage you know there's all sorts of things I can't do which really means I

things I can't do which really means I can no longer in the most primitive way

can no longer in the most primitive way it means I can no longer immediately

it means I can no longer immediately gratify my short-term whims although it

gratify my short-term whims although it could also be more complex in that I

could also be more complex in that I don't get to pursue the things that I

don't get to pursue the things that I need to pursue which means you haven't

need to pursue which means you haven't negotiated with your wife very well like

negotiated with your wife very well like if your marriage is a prison you have

if your marriage is a prison you have you're either very immature in what you

you're either very immature in what you want or you haven't negotiated properly

want or you haven't negotiated properly if you've done it well you've got your

if you've done it well you've got your individual Unity established and then

individual Unity established and then there's a Unity within the marriage

there's a Unity within the marriage that's better and why would it be better

that's better and why would it be better well you could learn to love someone and

well you could learn to love someone and that would be better because getting

that would be better because getting outside yourself decreases your anxiety

outside yourself decreases your anxiety so we know as psychologists one of the

so we know as psychologists one of the things that was learned 20 years ago is

things that was learned 20 years ago is that there's no difference between

that there's no difference between thinking about

thinking about yourself and what you want and being

yourself and what you want and being miserable those are

miserable those are self-consciousness and negative emotion

self-consciousness and negative emotion are so tightly tied together that

are so tightly tied together that they're statistically indistinguishable

they're statistically indistinguishable does that not raise the question about

does that not raise the question about the decline of religion absolutely well

the decline of religion absolutely well that's the next level it's like okay so

that's the next level it's like okay so there's you now you're a husband right

there's you now you're a husband right and so your identity is those two things

and so your identity is those two things in lockstep but that's not enough now

in lockstep but that's not enough now maybe you're a father now you have kids

maybe you're a father now you have kids now you have a whole another level of

now you have a whole another level of responsibility and opportunity to flesh

responsibility and opportunity to flesh yourself out and support support and

yourself out and support support and love right so now and then well you so

love right so now and then well you so you've got your family together that's

you've got your family together that's not enough you've got the community to

not enough you've got the community to serve so you want to serve the community

serve so you want to serve the community and then Community scale you know maybe

and then Community scale you know maybe you're good in your local business and

you're good in your local business and you have a local business organization

you have a local business organization and you're good in that and then well

and you're good in that and then well then there's the town level and the city

then there's the town level and the city level and the state level and the

level and the state level and the country level and then you know America

country level and then you know America is one nation under God that's the

is one nation under God that's the ultimate level of this hierarchy of

ultimate level of this hierarchy of identity and that's what should be

identity and that's what should be served most fundamentally that's a

served most fundamentally that's a definition

definition okay God is that which should be served

okay God is that which should be served most fundamentally it's a definition so

most fundamentally it's a definition so when you're thinking that b is better

when you're thinking that b is better than a what you're saying even if you

than a what you're saying even if you don't know it is that b is a step from a

don't know it is that b is a step from a on the road to God that's what you're

on the road to God that's what you're saying the the medieval definition a

saying the the medieval definition a medieval definition of God was something

medieval definition of God was something like the sum of all that is good or the

like the sum of all that is good or the essence of what is good and so if you

essence of what is good and so if you believe that there is a

believe that there is a good then lurking behind that is the

good then lurking behind that is the spirit of all that which all which all

spirit of all that which all which all of that which is good that's God by

of that which is good that's God by definition now you can debate forever

definition now you can debate forever about what that is but it is something

about what that is but it is something you live in relationship to like that's

you live in relationship to like that's in escap that's absolutely inescapable

in escap that's absolutely inescapable and you might say well I don't believe

and you might say well I don't believe in God and then I would say well do you

in God and then I would say well do you believe in good and you'll say no I say

believe in good and you'll say no I say well then you can't act because you act

well then you can't act because you act towards a good or you're not

towards a good or you're not motivated I called Simon gunning who's

motivated I called Simon gunning who's the CEO of campaign of living miserably

the CEO of campaign of living miserably it's a big man's health charity here and

it's a big man's health charity here and I said give me the updated stats he said

I said give me the updated stats he said to me 19 to 35 year olds which is that

to me 19 to 35 year olds which is that demographic that are listening to this

demographic that are listening to this predominantly um are twice as likely to

predominantly um are twice as likely to report being in crisis than any other

report being in crisis than any other group right and the there's a reason

group right and the there's a reason it's a very straightforward reason it's

it's a very straightforward reason it's it's literally this the more you are

it's literally this the more you are focused on your s the more miserable you

focused on your s the more miserable you are it's it's as simple as that but

are it's it's as simple as that but that's society now these days we're very

that's society now these days we're very I know well we're in Cur well and there

I know well we're in Cur well and there are terrible forces pushing Us in that

are terrible forces pushing Us in that direction you know like I could

direction you know like I could attribute this to the idiocies of a

attribute this to the idiocies of a degenerate Protestant liberalism driven

degenerate Protestant liberalism driven by postmodernism but you could also just

by postmodernism but you could also just as easily point to consumerist

as easily point to consumerist capitalism it's like it's all about you

capitalism it's like it's all about you it's all about what you want worse it's

it's all about what you want worse it's all about what you want right now worse

all about what you want right now worse it's all about what your basist

it's all about what your basist appetites want regardless of cost right

appetites want regardless of cost right now well that that's the same as being 2

now well that that's the same as being 2 years old it's there's nothing about

years old it's there's nothing about that that's and why do you think that's

that that's and why do you think that's you anyways it's like since when did

you anyways it's like since when did what you are become what the most

what you are become what the most idiotic part of you who cares nothing

idiotic part of you who cares nothing about anything else and any other people

about anything else and any other people wants right now why is that you how

wants right now why is that you how about this though so this is where I'm

about this though so this is where I'm trying to make a distinction is

trying to make a distinction is responsibility is a good thing but but

responsibility is a good thing but but with responsibility sometimes comes this

with responsibility sometimes comes this idea that it's about me my outcomes are

idea that it's about me my outcomes are about me it's all about me my success

about me it's all about me my success and failure are a consequence of me me

and failure are a consequence of me me me me yeah well that right right

me me yeah well that right right absolutely absolutely well that's why

absolutely absolutely well that's why the classical Christian philosophy has

the classical Christian philosophy has always been that you cannot infer

always been that you cannot infer someone's moral worth by the level of

someone's moral worth by the level of accomplishment so the aristocrats would

accomplishment so the aristocrats would have said the Roman Aristocrats would

have said the Roman Aristocrats would have said well look at me

have said well look at me like it's pretty obvious speaking to a

like it's pretty obvious speaking to a slave say it's pretty obvious that I'm

slave say it's pretty obvious that I'm better than you first of all I can slap

better than you first of all I can slap you and there's not a goddamn thing you

you and there's not a goddamn thing you can do about it and you have to do what

can do about it and you have to do what I tell you to do and I've got all the

I tell you to do and I've got all the money and all the stuff and I can make

money and all the stuff and I can make all the decisions and I have all the

all the decisions and I have all the power clearly that's evidence that I'm

power clearly that's evidence that I'm morally Superior to you but didn't they

morally Superior to you but didn't they believe that a God had granted them that

believe that a God had granted them that superiority to some degree so didn't

superiority to some degree so didn't they often believe in Fortune as the

they often believe in Fortune as the sure sure of course they did that just

sure sure of course they did that just made it even better it's like it's a the

made it even better it's like it's a the fact that I've got the power is a

fact that I've got the power is a reflection of the fact that the cosmic

reflection of the fact that the cosmic order is clearly on my side and we

order is clearly on my side and we believe that less now because of the

believe that less now because of the decline of religion so we now think that

decline of religion so we now think that our outcomes are more determined by our

our outcomes are more determined by our own actions yes but lurking underneath

own actions yes but lurking underneath that is is there's a hidden God lurking

that is is there's a hidden God lurking underneath all that too it's just that

underneath all that too it's just that the God has become subjectivity it's

the God has become subjectivity it's something like that when God talks to

something like that when God talks to Moses out of the depths of the burning

Moses out of the depths of the burning bush he says I am what I am and that's

bush he says I am what I am and that's what every degenerate Protestant liberal

what every degenerate Protestant liberal says now I am what I am and they also

says now I am what I am and they also say and if you don't go along with it

say and if you don't go along with it the consequences for you are going to be

the consequences for you are going to be pretty damn dismal use my pronouns adopt

pretty damn dismal use my pronouns adopt my identity play the game that the worst

my identity play the game that the worst part of me insists on or else and it is

part of me insists on or else and it is a consequence I I said Protestant

a consequence I I said Protestant liberalism for a reason like as we've

liberalism for a reason like as we've moved away from

moved away from God we've moved into a radical

God we've moved into a radical subjectivity now the problem with that

subjectivity now the problem with that is that a radical subjectivity

is that a radical subjectivity especially one of impulse is

especially one of impulse is unbelievably immature and

unbelievably immature and counterproductive it just doesn't work

counterproductive it just doesn't work any more than a room full of

any more than a room full of two-year-olds Works what's the better

two-year-olds Works what's the better idea this subsidiary structure it's the

idea this subsidiary structure it's the adoption of voluntary

adoption of voluntary responsibility May way more complex

responsibility May way more complex identity it's like you know take on the

identity it's like you know take on the load pick take someone in your life make

load pick take someone in your life make a permanent relationship work it out

a permanent relationship work it out have some kids serve

have some kids serve your Society at all these different

your Society at all these different levels strive upward what's up okay

levels strive upward what's up okay here's the definition of

here's the definition of up a better

up a better solution unites more situations and

solution unites more situations and people across broader spans of time is

people across broader spans of time is this why this brings me to you're doing

this why this brings me to you're doing Peterson's Academy which is an online

Peterson's Academy which is an online sort of Interactive Learning platform

sort of Interactive Learning platform you've designed which is kind of seems

you've designed which is kind of seems like it's taking on the this typical

like it's taking on the this typical University structure I've I was on there

University structure I've I was on there I see people can sign up right now but

I see people can sign up right now but why are you doing Peterson's Academy

why are you doing Peterson's Academy well um

well um curiosity

curiosity um I'm curious about virtually

um I'm curious about virtually everything I started putting my lectures

everything I started putting my lectures on YouTube because I was curious what'll

on YouTube because I was curious what'll happen if I use this you know so

happen if I use this you know so curiosity but then the more deliberative

curiosity but then the more deliberative answer is I'm in a very fortunate

answer is I'm in a very fortunate position because I can meet pretty much

position because I can meet pretty much anyone I want to meet and the people I

anyone I want to meet and the people I want to meet are almost always

want to meet are almost always interesting thinkers let's say or people

interesting thinkers let's say or people who have done interesting things

who have done interesting things repeatedly in their lives and so I can

repeatedly in their lives and so I can find those people and some of them are

find those people and some of them are very charismatic and they have lots to

very charismatic and they have lots to say and they I am providing them with a

say and they I am providing them with a platform to say those things and we can

platform to say those things and we can do it at extremely high quality and very

do it at extremely high quality and very very low cost and we can distribute that

very low cost and we can distribute that to everyone and I am an educator I'm a

to everyone and I am an educator I'm a professor or at least I was I'm still a

professor or at least I was I'm still a professor emitis and I it's time for the

professor emitis and I it's time for the for what we've been doing in

for what we've been doing in universities for all these centuries to

universities for all these centuries to be made available on a mass scale

be made available on a mass scale because it can be done very well and it

because it can be done very well and it can be done and it's entertaining to do

can be done and it's entertaining to do and there's no reason not to do it okay

and there's no reason not to do it okay so that's all on the positive side and

so that's all on the positive side and then there's a sense of humor aspect to

then there's a sense of humor aspect to it too because it became impossible for

it too because it became impossible for me to work in a university and so I

me to work in a university and so I thought fine I'll go build my own

thought fine I'll go build my own university cuz I thought and maybe

university cuz I thought and maybe there's something arrogant about this

there's something arrogant about this when the university came after me there

when the university came after me there was part of me that thought you think I

was part of me that thought you think I need you it's like I don't think so I

need you it's like I don't think so I think you need me and if you don't want

think you need me and if you don't want me around anymore we'll see who needs

me around anymore we'll see who needs who now like I said you know I was

who now like I said you know I was irritated and peeved and maybe there's

irritated and peeved and maybe there's something arrogant about that but let's

something arrogant about that but let's reconfigure it so here's one of the

reconfigure it so here's one of the experiences I've had bringing these

experiences I've had bringing these professors down to Miami this is

professors down to Miami this is especially true with the professors from

especially true with the professors from Cambridge and Oxford like some of these

Cambridge and Oxford like some of these people man they are deadly you're lucky

people man they are deadly you're lucky to have a conversation with them they've

to have a conversation with them they've been thinking a long time they're super

been thinking a long time they're super smart they're wise they know their field

smart they're wise they know their field they're great communicators these are

they're great communicators these are Stellar people and their universities

Stellar people and their universities treat them terribly no respect they let

treat them terribly no respect they let their students walk all over them they

their students walk all over them they pay them abysmally they treat them as if

pay them abysmally they treat them as if they're Pawns of the administration it's

they're Pawns of the administration it's sickening and so I invite them down to

sickening and so I invite them down to Miami and we we make them a good Good

Miami and we we make them a good Good Financial offer and we treat them like

Financial offer and we treat them like people we're very pleased to have there

people we're very pleased to have there and that we hope they'll come back and

and that we hope they'll come back and they have a really good time and they

they have a really good time and they deliver and we say look they say well

deliver and we say look they say well what what H what function do you want

what what H what function do you want this course to serve you know because

this course to serve you know because maybe they're worried that there's a

maybe they're worried that there's a political agenda or something like that

political agenda or something like that and our rule is we picked you for a

and our rule is we picked you for a reason you know what we're doing you

reason you know what we're doing you tell us how to get the hell out of your

tell us how to get the hell out of your way so that we can enable you to teach

way so that we can enable you to teach the course you've always dreamed of of

the course you've always dreamed of of teaching we will provide you with the

teaching we will provide you with the audience you've always wanted which will

audience you've always wanted which will be people because they have a live

be people because they have a live audience the live audience members we

audience the live audience members we select are selected because they want to

select are selected because they want to come and listen which is what you want

come and listen which is what you want for students and so we want to have the

for students and so we want to have the dream experience for the professor come

dream experience for the professor come talk about what you love to people who

talk about what you love to people who want to listen plus we'll provide you

want to listen plus we'll provide you with maybe enough financial security so

with maybe enough financial security so you don't have to be concerned about

you don't have to be concerned about your damn University anymore which is

your damn University anymore which is also something I'm quite pleased

also something I'm quite pleased now I don't know if we can deliver on

now I don't know if we can deliver on that but even the initial we give them

that but even the initial we give them an advance like like with a book deal

an advance like like with a book deal and even the initial Advance generally

and even the initial Advance generally is a sizable sum it depends to some

is a sizable sum it depends to some degree on their following right because

degree on their following right because we do some economic calibration but I

we do some economic calibration but I would love to be in a position where I

would love to be in a position where I could take like the best thousand

could take like the best thousand lectures in the world bring them on to

lectures in the world bring them on to Peterson Academy give them Financial

Peterson Academy give them Financial Independence because that would be

Independence because that would be really amusing and then to bring what

really amusing and then to bring what they have to say to to everyone for like

they have to say to to everyone for like for almost no cost you first you've

for almost no cost you first you've taken a first principal approach to

taken a first principal approach to trying to build a university um bringing

trying to build a university um bringing the best professors together giving them

the best professors together giving them the freedom making sure they're not

the freedom making sure they're not they're not sensored in any way giving

they're not sensored in any way giving them the audience and the remuneration

them the audience and the remuneration and appreciation they deserve when does

and appreciation they deserve when does this University Peterson Academy launch

this University Peterson Academy launch early 2024 we already have 30 courses uh

early 2024 we already have 30 courses uh recorded something like that I'll put

recorded something like that I'll put the link to the university in the

the link to the university in the description below on on this episode but

description below on on this episode but also you can just search Peterson's

also you can just search Peterson's University online and it comes up the

University online and it comes up the first

first thing we usually have a closing

thing we usually have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last

tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next

guest leaves a question for the next guest in the diary but um I wanted to

guest in the diary but um I wanted to ask you my own question because it was

ask you my own question because it was quite pivotal to our it was really

quite pivotal to our it was really informative and the honesty you brought

informative and the honesty you brought with it in our last conversation really

with it in our last conversation really changed my life in a number of ways how

changed my life in a number of ways how I'll tell you after I ask you a question

I'll tell you after I ask you a question okay okay the question

is how are you doing good good you know I I still have a lot

good good you know I I still have a lot of pain so that's annoying but not

of pain so that's annoying but not anywhere near as much as I did have when

anywhere near as much as I did have when I was really sick so like I almost

I was really sick so like I almost always feel like I have a relatively

always feel like I have a relatively serious flu achy it's some neurological

serious flu achy it's some neurological problem and I have no idea what it is

problem and I have no idea what it is and neither does anyone else but but I'm

and neither does anyone else but but I'm not anxious at all and my head is very

not anxious at all and my head is very clear and I have such a ridicul ully

clear and I have such a ridicul ully interesting life

that the the the leftover trouble is basically irrelevant you know I wish it

basically irrelevant you know I wish it would go away but whatever it's not that

would go away but whatever it's not that big a problem so and I I mean I just

big a problem so and I I mean I just have an

have an absolutely miraculous realm of

absolutely miraculous realm of opportunity in front of me it's crazy

opportunity in front of me it's crazy every day I have is so interesting that

every day I have is so interesting that it's almost unbearable and I would tell

it's almost unbearable and I would tell people who are listening you know you

people who are listening you know you might want that for yourself let's say

might want that for yourself let's say you might want to have that and I can

you might want to have that and I can tell you you can one way to increase the

tell you you can one way to increase the probability that things will unfold for

probability that things will unfold for you properly is to is to not lie it's

you properly is to is to not lie it's just stop lying

just stop lying period stop saying things you believe to

period stop saying things you believe to be untrue stop doing things you know to

be untrue stop doing things you know to be wrong just start with that you'll get

be wrong just start with that you'll get closer and closer to the truth and the

closer and closer to the truth and the truth is the truth is the adventure of

truth is the truth is the adventure of life that's the advantage to the truth

life that's the advantage to the truth you have the world on your side

you have the world on your side but obviously because if you're lying

but obviously because if you're lying about things you're opposing reality who

about things you're opposing reality who are you who are you to oppose reality

are you who are you to oppose reality good luck unbearable it's almost

good luck unbearable it's almost unbearable your life is

unbearable your life is so exciting and so full of opportunities

so exciting and so full of opportunities that it's almost

that it's almost unbearable yeah yeah it's like an action

unbearable yeah yeah it's like an action adventure movie all the time it's crazy

adventure movie all the time it's crazy it's crazy you know wherever I go I can

it's crazy you know wherever I go I can talk to whoever I want essentially you

talk to whoever I want essentially you know I'm going from country to country

know I'm going from country to country people stop me on the streets they're

people stop me on the streets they're happy to see me it's like I have friends

happy to see me it's like I have friends wherever I go really it's crazy and

wherever I go really it's crazy and people you know they feel they know me

people you know they feel they know me because they've been watching hours

because they've been watching hours often and they do know me you know I

often and they do know me you know I don't know them but they certainly

don't know them but they certainly approach me on good terms you know and

approach me on good terms you know and so and I go I just was in nine different

so and I go I just was in nine different countries and I have a team of people

countries and I have a team of people who set up meetings for me like dinner

who set up meetings for me like dinner meetings and so on in these countries

meetings and so on in these countries and they're always people they're

and they're always people they're well-placed people in the political

well-placed people in the political realm in the cultural realm they're

realm in the cultural realm they're hyper interesting people and you know so

hyper interesting people and you know so I meet 30 people like that every second

I meet 30 people like that every second day in in different countries all over

day in in different countries all over the world and so and then I have these

the world and so and then I have these podcasts and I can basically phone

podcasts and I can basically phone anyone I want who I would like to talk

anyone I want who I would like to talk to and they'll talk to me and so you

to and they'll talk to me and so you know three times a week I get to sit

know three times a week I get to sit down with someone who's like a bloody

down with someone who's like a bloody genius and for 90 minutes they'll tell

genius and for 90 minutes they'll tell me a whole bunch of things I don't know

me a whole bunch of things I don't know so that's superbly interesting and so

so that's superbly interesting and so and you know my books are selling like

and you know my books are selling like mad and I'm writing another one which

mad and I'm writing another one which I'm really interested in and yeah it's

I'm really interested in and yeah it's great it's ridiculously interesting and

great it's ridiculously interesting and you

you can I truly believe that people have

can I truly believe that people have that at hand they have you have that at

that at hand they have you have that at hand that's there for

hand that's there for you Jordan thank you my pleasure it's

you Jordan thank you my pleasure it's always good to talk with you it's always

always good to talk with you it's always good to talk with you too and it's

good to talk with you too and it's you've given me a gift as you did last

you've given me a gift as you did last time in so many ways so thank you so

time in so many ways so thank you so much for making the decision cuz I you

much for making the decision cuz I you could be anywhere so if you to come here

could be anywhere so if you to come here that that that honor and that that

that that that honor and that that decision is not lost on me so it means a

decision is not lost on me so it means a lot to me thank you so much for the work

lot to me thank you so much for the work that you do yeah well I'll tell you just

that you do yeah well I'll tell you just so you know too it's like there's a

so you know too it's like there's a reason I'm here you know I have a team

reason I'm here you know I have a team that because I do have a lot of requests

that because I do have a lot of requests and when you have more requests than you

and when you have more requests than you can possibly fulfill there's a certain

can possibly fulfill there's a certain pain in that because there's the

pain in that because there's the requests are almost always of some

requests are almost always of some quality you know so we triage and we're

quality you know so we triage and we're looking for people whose podast CS have

looking for people whose podast CS have reach and who have been successful and

reach and who have been successful and who will conduct a straightforward and

who will conduct a straightforward and honest interview and that will you know

honest interview and that will you know that are aiming up and that won't play

that are aiming up and that won't play games and there's a reason I'm here and

games and there's a reason I'm here and the reason I'm here is because of the

the reason I'm here is because of the work that you've done so right it's no

work that you've done so right it's no favor I'm glad to be here but I'm I'm

favor I'm glad to be here but I'm I'm here because this is the right place to

here because this is the right place to be right now so congratulations on that

be right now so congratulations on that thank you so much

thank you so much [Music]

[Music] a quick word on hu as you know they're a

a quick word on hu as you know they're a sponsor of this podcast and I'm an

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been done and it tastes so godamn good often these snack bars these like high

often these snack bars these like high protein snack bars taste like you're

protein snack bars taste like you're eating Play-Doh or cardboard or

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tastes good and ladies and gentlemen here we have it I'm going to put the

here we have it I'm going to put the link in the description to get your bar

link in the description to get your bar below try it out and tag me and let me

below try it out and tag me and let me know exactly how you get on because it's

know exactly how you get on because it's so nice to finally have a bar that is

so nice to finally have a bar that is nutritionally complete and that actually

nutritionally complete and that actually doesn't taste like cardboard and that

doesn't taste like cardboard and that tastes

tastes delicious The Impossible has been

delicious The Impossible has been accomplished

[Music] ah

ah [Music]

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YouTube Transcript:Jordan Peterson: STOP LYING TO YOURSELF! How To Turn Your Life Around In 2024!