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Jordan B Peterson: You Need To Listen To Your Wife! We've Built A Lonely & Sexless Society!

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The discussion centers on the challenges of modern life, particularly the erosion of meaning, the importance of confronting hardship, and the necessity of strong social bonds and personal responsibility, as articulated by Jordan Peterson.

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we know the couples have lived together

before the marriage actually increases

the probability that the relationship

will fail and the reason for that is

very straightforward and talking of

things that risk harming relationships

subject we've never spoke about before

is oh yeah and that's a huge reason sex

has disappeared people need to stop

doing that Jordan Peterson the

psychology Professor people love or love

to hate he's undeniably one of the

greatest intellectual phenomenons on the

planet and many view him as the ultimate

Father Figure welcome back Mr Peterson

we're built for maximal Challenge and

that isn't the way we view ourselves in

the modern world we view ourselves as

built for consumption and pleasure for

example watching pornography but what

are the downstream consequences of that

well first of all it's easy to get what

sexual gratification but does it matter

oh it's a catastrophe you're not

desperate anymore and if you're going to

have the true adventure of your life

you're going to need love shame guilt

desperation and pain like it's hard but

now people take the easy Road like

avoiding Conflict for example and I

spent a lot of time studying evil it

arises when good men hold their tongue

now you may suffer some consequences of

speaking but retreating one step at a

time defensively that it makes you sick

of yourself there's nothing worse that

can happen to you you want your life to

be unbearably entertaining and maybe all

the sorrow and catastrophe has to be

part of it because otherwise

there's there's nothing about it that's

glorious this has always blown my mind a

little bit 53% of you that listen to the

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much your book comes at a really

interesting time in my life personally

your book is called we who wrestle with

God and it's my belief and suspicion

that there's a lot of people wrestling

with God at the moment and when I say

the word God I don't necessarily mean

some man in the sky with a beard what I

really mean is a greater meaning a

greater sense of meaning um the world

feels like and you speak to this in the

book that it's gotten more and more

individualistic and there's consequence

to that fractionated is another way of

thinking about it right because you can

think about it as individualistic and

that's a positive spin so to speak but

alienated isolated and fractionated is

the what would you say is the

accompaniment to that see I think I

think I think the case is is that the liberal

liberal

experiment in individualism only works

when the conservative Foundation is in

place right if you aggregate people

together and they share enough

fundamental values especially of a

particular sort then you can concentrate

on the individual and individual freedom

but there's a lot of preconditions for

that and you know the Scottish liberals

so the ones who really established

Western liberalism as a philosophical

and political movement they knew that

you know it

was individual

liberty judeo-christian substructure and

that was an assumption now the problem

with modern liberalism is that that

underlying Foundation has become

extremely shaky and everyone feels it

that's what the culture wars about

fundamentally and that fact is

invalidating the fractionated liberal

experiment partly see it's partly

because we have the wrong conception of

identity fundamentally identity is a

hierarchical structure

so we kind of think that you end at your

boundaries as an IND individual but you don't

don't

because well you're probably not not

going to want to be alone so then let's

say you're married okay so

now your identity as a husband that's a

social identity and then you're you have

an identity as a father that's a social

identity then you have an identity as a

member of your community and a member of

your city and a member of your state and

a member of your nation and

then you're involved in a metaphysical

Endeavor that constitutes the foundation

for the nation let's say that's would be

one nation under God that's one way of

thinking about it or you could think

about it as the self-evident truths that

underly the state your identity exists

at all those levels and then your mental

health isn't something you carry around

in your head it's the harmony that

exists or doesn't exist between all

those levels and that isn't how liberal

individualists think about identity at

all and that's because they were for a

long time fortunate enough so all those

other strata were in place so where do

we find ourselves now if we don't have

that hierarchy and we aren't held in

place by all those layers and sort of

Social and I guess family

identities a drift in a storm

alone so look here's here's an

interesting fact

so Psych ologists who are statistically

minded they're called psychometricians

they're psychologists who are obsessed

research psychologists who are obsessed

with measurement and concept

definition spent a lot of time

aggregating Concepts these were in some

ways what they were doing was equivalent

to the development of early large

language models so psychologists were at

the Forefront of

that on the statistical side

words that we use to describe people Clump

Clump

together so for example if you're

extroverted you're social and you're

happy you're

enthusiastic okay so those Clump

together if

you're anxious you're also you also tend

to be frustrated disappointed grief

stricken and in pain all the negative emotions

emotions

Clump words associated with your empathy

aggregate words associated with your

dutifulness Aggregate and so do words

associated with creativity those are the

five fundamental dimensions of

temperament one of the words that clumps

with negative emotion is

self-consciousness which means that

self-consciousness is so tightly

associated with suffering that they're

not conceptually

distinguishable which means literally

the more you think about yourself the

more miserable you

are and it it it makes sense when you

understand how social people are we're so

social that you can take the most

antisocial human beings imaginable so Psychopathic

Psychopathic

criminals and you can punish them by

putting them in solitary confinement

that's how social human beings are and

so your mental health is way more

dependent on your nesting within a

social structure than than on your say

the internal coherence of your belief

systems in fact I think it's hardly at

all dependent on the internal

consistency of your coherence of your

belief systems it's more like does

anyone like you do you have any friends

do you have anyone that loves you or

more or maybe even more profoundly are

there people for whom you make

sacrifices right that's a very that's

it's relevant to the topic of this book

obviously because the relationship with

the Divine in the stories that I'm

detailing in this book most of them are

Old Testament Stories the relationship

with the Divine is a sacrificial

relationship the Divine is that to which

sacrifice is directed well if you get

married it's a

sacrificial offering because you

sacrifice your potential relationship

with all other women to that

woman what does one dra an individual

level if they find themselves in such a

society where individualism has taken

hold um and they can't necessarily

easily change the society are there

daytoday week to week choices that I'm

making that are pushing me away from

that meaning and purpose and sort of uh

Collective I guess sense of

responsibility like the individual

listening to this now that completely

agrees with you finds himself as being a

lonely person and goes what do I do

about this Jordan well one of the things

you do with disagreeable people who are

more inclined by temperament to be

competitive and attain victory for

themselves is one of the exercises you

can do with disagreeable people if

you're a disagreeable extrovert you tend

to be narcissistic and the problem with

that technically is that you alienate

people and the problem with that is

no doubt learned this more as you become

successful it's like you need a team and

right and the more and the more tightly

knit it is and the more you're all

working in the same direction the better

everything works well you it's not

useful to be a narcissist because maybe

you get what you want right now this

time but as a propagating strategy

across time it's a degenerating game

okay so what do you do well instead of

thinking about what you want or even

thinking about how to strategize in

relationship to your goals you might

think about what you could do to for

other people or you could think about

what you would do if you only did what

was true and right those are very

different orientations right and the

religious orientation fundamentally is

the orientation towards what is true and

right and you might say well I don't

know what's true and right it's like

yeah kind of because our knowledge is

bounded and we're ignorant so do we

understand the nature of the highest

good well no but it's a very rare person

who doesn't know some of the time when

they're doing something

wrong and it's also a non-existent

person who doesn't have some concept of

the good because you can't act without a

concept of the good because you act

towards a goal you deem desirable so

that's up I mean unless you're trying to

make your life worse and people do do

that from time to time but believe that

as an exception I mean you have

to you have to have descended into Hell

in a way before you're in a situation

where you're actively working to make

your own life worse that can happen but

assuming that

you're relatively well embedded in the

realm of the normal then you're moving

towards something better always because

otherwise there's no motivation we we

know this technically this isn't even disputable

disputable

so the positive emotion systems that

make you enthusiastic so that fill you

with the desire to move towards a

goal independent of fear say you know

because you could move towards a safety

goal because you're afraid but imagine

you're trying to accomplish something

you have a goal the positive emotion

systems operate to track progress to the

goal positive emotion is a consequence

of evidence of movement towards the

desired goal okay so now you have a

proximal goal you know like our proximal

goal right now might be just to like in

the most micro level possible might be

to display facial signs of interest in

the conversation right it's very micro

goal but then that's nested in our

desire to have an interest in

conversation on the topic we're having

right now and then inside the podcast as

a whole and then as part of the podcast

Enterprise that you're involved in as

part of the book Enterprise let's say

that I'm involved in that's nested

inside our view of the world right so

you see there there are nestings of the

good that have no upper limit that's

Jacob's Ladder by the way and at the top

of that is the good

itself which is the Divine for all

intents and purposes Divine what do you

mean by that that's a

definition that that's what I mean is

that in the hierarchy of what's

good the Divine is the peak the top okay

right now you don't know what that

is that's also an insistence in the

biblical texts by the way in the final

analysis the Divine is ineffable it's not

not

definable and it's beyond you and that's

partly because it's there's a practical

reason for that even you know this as

well as you move towards a goal let's

say you attain a goal okay now you've

accomplished well are you done it's like

no a new potential goal emerges a new

Pinnacle and then maybe you'll

accomplish that but then a new one

exists and so you could say that the the

domain of the the domain of opportunity is

Limitless right because the thing that's

at the Pinnacle recedes as you approach

it and that's a you could say that's a

technical definition of God which is

accurate that is a technical definition

of God God is the good towards which all Goods

Goods

Point these are definitions again

remember they're not proclamations of

Faith they're definitions so we

obviously all believe that all good

things share something in common because

otherwise we wouldn't have the category

good and then we all believe that there

are rank orders of good because

otherwise everything good would be

equally worth pursuing No One Believes

that so there's a rank order well if

there's a rank orders towards some end

or some Pinnacle you can also think

about it as a

foundation depends on which metaphorical

landscape you want to

inhabit then the question becomes well

how do you characterize that which is

the ultimate aim that which is is and

should be the ultimate aim well the

the stories on which our culture is

predicated characterize that in story do

you think many people have an ultimate

aim in their mind they they do whether

they know it or not how what do you mean

by that so like the average person

listening to this now do they are they

conscious at all of what they're no but

it's implicit okay one of the things the

psychoanalytic thinkers insisted on Carl

Young in particular was that everybody

acts out a

story sometimes it's a tragic story

sometimes it's the story of hell like

you're trapped in a story one way or

another now do you know the Contours of your

your

story not necessarily I mean people are

often very bad at describing themselves

they don't know what they're up to that

doesn't mean they're not up to something

and you could also think about them as

the Battleground between Waring stories

that also happens that just means they're

they're

fractionated in their psyche you know

they're being pulled in many directions

at the same time someone said to me

actually yesterday they said an

interesting way to understand your self

narrative or your self story is to

answer the question if you were a

character a fictional character who

would you be and in that you figure out

whether you have this sort of heroized

story or if you're a victim so I ask you

that question yeah right absolutely

bu Bugs Bunny's a trickster

character right

answer do you ever read the idiot

no yeah well I'm probably half idiot and

half rol

nikov that's another way of looking at

the um character of the idiot in dov's

novel is a holy fool it's a strange

combination a person who's doing things

right in a manner that's I suppose not

with naivity or foolishness

playfulness even I

suppose is that how you characterize

yourself someone that's doing things

right but in a way that others perceive

as foolishness or naivity or or even

malevolence at

times you know I mean that's partly why

people have gone after my

reputation does it does it ever bother

you people going after your reputation

or them P sure I mean sometimes it's

like it's been very distressing very

distressing the battles I've had with

the College of psychologists in Ontario

those are no joke it's very very

stressful and

unconscionable so expensive hundreds of

thousands of dollars years it's been 10

years of legal battles um calumny in the

Press they're they're attempting to

undermine my professional credibility

with some degree of success you know

because when you're professional profal

College goes after

you people have to make a choice it's

either the professional colleg is

corrupt and wrong or the individual

being targeted is corrupt and wrong it's

way easier to draw the second conclusion

and under most circumstances in a valid

State that's the correct

conclusion so and it was very stressful

to find myself embattled at the

university University of Toronto I liked

working there that place had its

problems but it was pretty functional

and and I likeed being there I I I

enjoyed my career as a professor I had

great relationships with the

undergraduates and my graduate students

I love doing my research which has also

disappeared um so

now those are the

serious disputes that I've had

reputationally let's say um there's a

lot of casual reputation savaging that I

don't really care about from journalists

and so forth although sometimes that's

been pretty brutal because whenever that happened

happened

especially when things just started to

be developing around me let's say on the public

public

stage when it when I encountered a

particularly Psychopathic journalist

which happened quite often particularly

in the UK um it was completely a toss up

which way it was going to go like it

could have just finished me and my

family that that was definitely the case

three or four five times maybe more than

that so yes it's very bothersome now now

and really for a long

time all of that takes place within a

much broader context all the

interactions I have with people in my

actual life are ridiculously positive

and what would you say positive and

gratifying you know so that's a form of

suffering in a way and everybody goes

through suffering and because you've

been through that have you been able to

develop a a strategy or a some kind of

anchoring that helps you when the wind

blows like that well yeah oh definitely I

mean uh I had very strong

relationships when all of this started

to develop around me and that's just

become more the case a very tightly knit

family and a very tightly knit group of

friends now I lost some more peripheral friends

friends

but you know that's unfortunate but s so

there's that now is that a strategy um

well it's not exactly a strategy because

I didn't design it towards an end it was

more like an end in itself right I mean

I had kids not as a strategic move but

because I like kids so and I

particularly like my kids so

that's not a strategy and I really have

a great relationship with my wife and

like I've known her for 52 years it's a

very long time and uh she's definitely

my best friend and probably has been for

52 years and so that's really helpful

that that and that refers back to this

issue of identity that we were

discussing you know my identity is well

structured in in the social sense

and then in terms of strategy yeah I

mean I have a meta strategy I suppose I

just say what I

think right now is that a

strategy it depends on how you define

strategy it's not a strategy that's

designed to serve my ends not not in a individualistic

individualistic

way so I'm just trying to see what

happens if I say what I think that's a

way of navigating in the world right

it's an adventurous way of navigating in

the world because you don't know what's

going to happen you have to let go of

that and then there's a element of faith

in that right there's faith in

everything you do you know the the

empiricist types the scientific

reductionists they say well you can move

forward in the world without faith

that's complete bloody rubbish there

isn't anything you ever do that's

important that you don't do in light of

Faith it's like if you get married you

do that on the basis of the evidence do

you what bloody evidence do you have

you're 23 years old you don't know a

damn thing you know maybe you're in love

with the person that you want to marry

but you have no evidence whatsoever

about how your life is going to go none

you have to LEAP into the unknown like

you do with everything that's important

that's all Faith predicated now the

question is Faith in what well if you

decide that you're just going to say

what you think

then you have faith in the

truth at least in so far as you have

access to the truth is it true to say

that if you hadn't have said what you

think publicly then you would have

experienced less suffering than you have

no really I don't think so so if you had

said if you had stayed in your practice

you know as a clinicaly because I would

have had to not I would have had to bite

my tongue and you think that's more I

know it it's not a matter of thinking I

know it I know it

uh absolutely 100% I spent a lot of time

studying evil a lot of time and I know

how it arises it arises when good men

hold their tongue you don't want that

there's nothing worse that can happen to

you now you may suffer some consequences of

speaking for sure but all things

considered which is the right attitude

if you're wise

there's nothing worse that can happen to

you than to falsify your

speech is saying nothing a form of

falsifying spee it is when you have

something to say yeah definitely because

there's a lot of people probably

listening now that have a lot they want

to say yeah but if they say it they're

going to lose their job or they're

there's going to be immediate

consequences which might mean they can't

feed their family yeah it might mean

that but it also might mean that if they

bite their tongue and pretend to be

something other than they are they'll be

a weak model for

children and you know is that better

than having some Financial

instability Maybe here's a counter

proposition if your job requires you to

lie maybe you should find another

job now look I also understand that

there are strategic considerations in

such a decision there's no sense

martyring yourself stupidly and if

you're going

to say what you believe to be the case

then you need to put yourself in a

position where doing so won't be

instantly catastrophic in a way you

can't fix because that's not a good

that's not

wise now when things blew up around me I

had three sources of

income that wasn't

accidental now you know people say well

you are fortunate it's like

yeah and careful mhm so I didn't want

have all my eggs in one basket and that

turned out well I knew that it's like

you have no autonomy if you have all

your eggs in one basket so if you're

going to think strategically if you're

going to think like someone who's at war

let's say then you don't leave your you

don't leave

a mortal flank

exposed and so if you know here's a rule

if you find yourself in a position where

you're unable to speak you haven't

fortified your territory

properly right so then you have to think

about that it's like you think okay why

can't I say what I believe to be the

case where am I

vulnerable and you can say well that's

inevitable it's like no it's not it's not

not

inevitable that doesn't mean it isn't

difficult to to fortify and to put

yourself in a position

where you're on the offense successfully

that's hard but retreating One Step at a

Time defensively for your whole life and

shrinking while you do it that's also

not very that's also difficult it's just

the kind of difficult that wears you

down and makes you sick of

yourself that's not a good that's not a

good plan that's a bad

plan and did you see this when you were

in your clinical practice did you see it

in people oh constantly how does it show

up on the surface what are the words

that they say to articulate that this

sort of slow diminishing retraction oh

you see that in people's marriages all

the time when marriages

deteriorate a marriage ends in divorce

when there's 10,000 fights that haven't been

been

had and I really I'm I'm not just

guessing at that number it's like let's

say your marriage isn't going very well

and so you have five

five

uncomfortable quasi disputes a day mhm

just to pick a number maybe it's 50

maybe it's three whatever five will do

well that's 1500 a year okay now you

just aggregate that

over let's say the 10 years it takes

your marriage to

collapse well you've got something

approximating 10,000 fights you didn't

have that's 10,000 times you remain

silent when you had something to say and

they all Aggregate and then every time

once you've collected the first

5,000 then every time you have a dispute

all 5,000 are lurking behind that

dispute and the fact of their existence

makes it much less likely that you'll

say what you have to say that's the

reemergence of the Dragon of chaos as a

consequence of fleeing from your fate

that's exactly right last time we spoke

you said something which stayed with me

and I've actually forwarded it to a few

of my friends on this particular subject

you said to me you're going to have to

sit and spend 90 minutes a week speaking

to your partner yeah so annoying it's so

annoying it's so annoying but it's so

important and so many of my friends that

are in have relationship difficulties I

send them just a little four minute clip

I have on my phone of you saying that

because the 90 minute no it might be 95

minutes it might be 85 minutes but the

concept of you need to sit down and

create a space where she or he or

whatever can tell you what they've

noticed why they don't like you exactly

yeah yeah yeah well it's especially I think

think

I don't think that you can really

establish the kind of relationship with

a woman that you want with anything in the

the

road like it's hard for women to give

themselves to men and no wonder it's

amazing they ever do it they have a lot

on the

line what are the preconditions for that offering

offering

uh peace and

security you can tell if if it's if the

territory is being cleared because play

emerges right right play emerges and

play is a very fragile motivational

state it can be disrupted by almost

anything so if there are impediments to

understanding play will not arise and

then you don't have the romantic

adventure that you want it's

grudging right you don't have a

voluntary partner and that's a very hard

thing to attain right that full

voluntary partnership that means that

you're in sync with each other MH you

can't expect that to be easy you can't

even be in sync with yourself like it's

hard and you need to keep each other up

to date you need to know what's going on

you need to iron out the sources of

discomfort or distrust and that there's

a lot of Dante's Inferno what's that

that well Dante's

Inferno is a characterization of Hell by

by Dante by it's one of the most famous

poems ever written and it's it's you

could think about it as what you have to

do to get to the bottom of things so

let's say that you have a dispute with

your wife and it's a recurring

dispute right it's an issue you have an

issue well do you want to address the

issue it's like do you want want to do

surgery without anesthetic like it's the

same question addressing an issue is a

journey into the

abyss Dante placed Satan at the bottom

of hell right so that's the figure of

malevolence itself encased in ice and

Frozen so immobile surrounded by those

who betray that's the lowest level of

hell why well it's often the case that

if you journey into an issue spiral down

to the bottom you'll find

betrayal right cuz maybe your partner

doesn't trust you because she was

betrayed highly probable highly probable

or her grandmother was betrayed like you

know there's bad blood between men and

women can you have a solve for that so

if I'm in a situation where my partner

doesn't trust me because she was

betrayed whether it's something I did or

whatever how do you ever get rid of the

devil at the bottom of the Spiral well

you have to you have to find out that

it's there okay that's a hard question

you both have to want

to that's the first thing because that's

the setting of the aim what do we

want we want to play Forever in God's

Heavenly Garden how about that that's a

metaphorical representation right but

that's a wall Garden that's the human

environment the walls are the walls of

your house the garden is

nature displaying itself in its beauty

within boundaries that's a place that

play can take place that's what you want

you got to think about it what do you

want okay so now we might ask what do

you mean want okay if you were taking

care of yourself and you could have what

was good for you what would that be now

that's a hard question right you're

going to have to think about that for a

long time what would satisfy something

as someone as miserable and resentful

and useless as me

right if I could have it now people will

they don't even want

to address that issue be because part of

the problem with making your aim clear

is you know when you're failing and

people would rather keep the evidence of

their failure obscured from themselves

even if it meant continued failure but

now let's say you decide not to do that

you're going to think okay I'm going to

aim high I'm going to take care of

myself okay now your wife's on Lord with

that now that's a hell of that's a

that's really what the marital vow is in

the final analysis most deeply is that

willingness to participate in that

game now you have to tell each other the

truth what the hell do you want well she

doesn't know and neither do you not

really so you got to start digging

finding out and you and noticing it's

like now and then you'll see that you're

happy with each other and maybe it'll

happen kind of randomly you'll be out in

some I don't know maybe you're at a

restaurant or you're gone for a walk or

who knows and you'll notice oh this is

going well it's like oh yeah this is

going well what are we doing right could

we take that little episode and could we

start to expand it you know because one

of the things you can do in our marriage

is you can notice when things are going

well and then you can have a chat with

each other and say look I don't know

what we did during this period of time

but let's see if we can figure it out

see if we could do like 10% more of that

next week or one % more and then just

make that expand you can do that too by

you know hypothetically at some point if

you're married at some point you were in

love with your wife you can remember

that you have to remember that you have

to practice remembering that you have to

practice bringing it to mind and

occupying that because when you first

fall in love it kind of happens to you

right that's a gift but you have to in

order for that to last you have

to become an expert at you have to

become an expert at it you have to take

it on as a responsibility it's offered

as a gift but then you have to take it

on as a responsibility then you have to

practice it's like oh yes I love this

person and if you don't at the moment

you have to think well I did and I could

so why don't I is it

me that's probably it's

you might be them too but you might as

well start with you I mean you got lots

of flaws you could start with those what

if you just made a bad decision as in

like the person you picked you think

they're not

compatible well you stand a tough one a

because you're not really compatible

with anyone you know people think well

I'll find the right person it's like

first of all no you won't second if you

found the right person and they ever saw

you they just run away screaming so it's

just the whole conceptual scheme is

wrong I when I was on tour there was one

three-day period where the same question

emerged from the audience because I do a

Q&A three nights in a row how do I find

the person that's right for me and I I

tried answering it and by the third

night I thought oh I know why I can't

answer this question it's because it's a

stupid question it's badly formulated

like profoundly badly formulated fatally

badly formulated it's not the right

question the right question

is how could I learn to offer something

to someone else that would make me

eminently desirable that's a way

different question like it's so they're

not even in the same conceptual universe

and it's the right question because you

can build yourself into a person that

people would line up to be with how

how well have you done

it to some well you told me not you're

very successful right you you're

increasingly successful your book warns

against narcissism Jordan so yeah

there's there's a difference between

narcissism and giving the devil is Du

you've look okay let let's pull back a

little bit what have you done right I

have focused on myself for a long time

and okay what does that mean it means I

fortified myself financially okay so

that I'm I'm you know I can support

others I can support a family so that's

not exactly focusing on yourself right

okay that's focusing on getting your act

together and I'm being very picky about

the words because focus on yourself that

has a

narcissistic connotation but that that

isn't what you're talking about you said

you fortified yourself financially okay

so now you're you you you you have

Foundation under your feet financially

okay okay good what else

I go to the gym so I'm strong physically

strong okay um which is useful um I've

learned a lot okay a lot of learning

about myself about how I show up in the

world right so you're trying to learn

yes I've learned skills so well so

there's three things that are pretty

good yeah you've got a firm Financial

Foundation you've you're work you're

you're maintaining yourself physically

or even improving yourself and you're

doing the same thing say spiritually and

and intellectually okay well that

attract a fair number of people just

those three right and maybe you're

increasing the probability that will

attract the sort of person that you

would like to attract that is very much

the story of my life like I think don't

think people realize this but I've

actually been on I think four dates in

my entire life I'm 32 and I took this

really counter sort of seems

counterintuitive approach to myself

which was as an 18-year-old I basically

couldn't attract anybody I was also not

on dating apps I wasn't doing so my for

10 years I basically focused on myself

and you know 27 years old someone

messaged me and I went on it and this is

how I am like if I'm going to go on a

date it's going to be I'm going to go

all in it was a three-day date that I

planned in an Excel document I've been

with that person for six years so I feel

like I didn't date I didn't go to bars

and try and like you know that's worth

taking apart I'm I like I like to do

arithmetic with my clients like people

hate arithmetic and it's no wonder

because it's so sad aage so I'll give

you an example so 15 years

ago I counted the number of times I

would see my

parents it's like 20 times so then I knew

knew

that right 20 isn't very

many right how many people do you get to

try on in your

life five if you're lucky if you're

attractive and fortunate you get five

cracks at the p

five isn't very many and people think

well it's a there's plenty of fish in

the sea it's like that doesn't mean

they're going to swarm around you buddy

right it's and maybe it's even worse for

women because their time frame is is

very short you know like if a woman

isn't in a

relationship family relationship by 30

then it's starting to get pretty damn

rough and that's almost independent of

how attractive she is it's like you

don't have much time better get yourself

prepared when you say pretty damn rough

what you mean well to find a mate or to

have a child or both both well we know

now that at the present time in the west

half of women 30 and younger don't have a

child okay now we also know that couples

30 one in three couples at 30 already

have trouble conceiving and that

definition of trouble is one year of

attempt with no success okay so

fertility goes off a cliff at 35 so 30

you're pushing your luck at 30 at 35 you

are seriously pushing your luck I worked

for 10 years with a strata of the

highest achieving women likely in Canada

I had as part of my clinical practice

a offering that we made to consulting

firms and law firms and the offer was

send us your best people

and we'll work for them but the

consequence of that is that they'll be

even more productive so in the typical

Law Firm for example there's people who

don't do well then there's people who

are good lawyers then there are people

who are good lawyers that bring in

business there's like none of them

they're super valuable and if a law firm

has someone like that they want to keep

them and they're often women half the

time let's say um and those were the

women I worked with a bunch of men too

but all concentrated on the women here

those were the women I was working with

and they

were generally extremely attractive

extremely intelligent very hardworking

and very focused on Career Development

and they were they' done very well in

junior high school and high school then

they you know aced college and their

lsats and then when they were articling

the firms snapped them up quickly and

then they rocketed up towards

partnership and then then they were 30

and they all thought what the hell am I

doing working 70 hours a week with a

bunch of insanely competitive

men right and that is the question it's

like what are you doing

exactly and then even if you're

radically successful let's say in your

law school career if you get run over by

a bus on the way to

work the waters just close over you at

the firm and the firm continues on it's

not like anyone

cares not really so now I'm I'm not

saying that people shouldn't pursue a

career I'm not saying that but I would

say even in my case and I'm male so that

makes a big difference because men are

also oriented towards status competition

victory in a way that women just aren't

not at least not in the career domain

and the reason for that it's very

straightforward and the the thing that

makes men

by default most attractive to women is

their comparative success in the

hierarchy of men it's a walloping

predictor and it's irrelevant to men

like men don't care at all whether women

are successful in their career it's not

a determinant of their attractiveness in

fact it's

often the

contrary well these women that I'm

talking about they were often alone why

well they're beautiful so that like

intimidated 90% of men right there

they're smart so that's another 90% of

the remaining 10% they're accomplished and

and

Wealthy well like first of all who's

going to approach them and second who

are they going to accept because women

are hypergamous right is that does that

mean that men are insecure

and sort of emasculated by a strong

successful woman

sure yeah well but there's reason for

it's not weakness on the part of men

exactly it's the desire of the woman to

find someone who brings a benefit to the

relationship and why well she because a

woman will make herself vulnerable when

she has a child and so she's looking for

a man who be helpful compared to

her okay so if the woman is like full of

ability well then her standards for a

guy who's going to be helpful get very

high and that's hard on her because it

decreases the pool of available candidates

candidates

radically so like there's a negative

relationship between IQ and women and

the probability of being

married so it's harsh now is it are men

intimidated well yes obviously are men

intimidated by beautiful women well you

can answer

that especially if you're young why the

probability that any given beautiful

woman is going to reject you when you're

a young man is like it's basically 100%

now it's not exactly 100% And there are

exceptions but the default response is

rejection and beautiful women get hit

on you know a fair bit some of the it's

interesting because there's a bunch of

stats which I find quite interesting one

of them is that sexlessness is increas

is increasing people having less and

less yeah that's fascinating it's that's

fascinating does it matter

oh it's a catastrophe and and why are we

having less sex what is the complex web

of factors that have brought us to this

place I know something like well one of

them I would say is that me in a in a

free and easy mating environment women

don't trust men and no wonder well here

so imagine that there are men who are

oriented towards short-term

relationships and there are men who are

oriented towards long-term relationships

committed relationships right okay so

that would be the men who want love long

with sex let's say love and commitment

then there's the party today because

we're all dead tomorrow sort of guys and

there's some women like that too

although few are women because they pay

a much higher price for sexual

impropriety so the pool of short-term

maters has more men in it okay what do

they like well the personality Studies

have already been done they're aelan

which means they use their language to

manipulate they're narcissistic which

means they want unearned social status

they're Psychopathic which makes them

predatory parasites and they're sadistic

okay so now you open up the mating

market so that shortterm deanes are

acceptable you throw all the women into

the hands of the

Psychopaths well that's a bad strategy

and it's no wonder that it decimates the

mating Market because women are thinking

well are those men trustworthy and the

answer is

no and sex is costly like we have this

immature delusion that we can free sex

from like the grip of the oppressive

patriarchy let's say it's like no you

can't obviously you can't there's it

emotional entanglements are an

inevitable consequence of intimate

physical relationships there's that then

there's the issue of abortion and

pregnancy that actually con dutes a

problem and then there's sexually

transmitted disease and that's just like

the first of a very long list of

potential problems with sex so there's

no simple sexual landscape and there are

diluted people who think they're there

is a simple landscape and that there

should be but most they tilt hard in the

psychopathic Direction because they're

manipulative do you believe in no sex

before marriage as a

concept as an ideal yeah

yeah yeah that's

right and and why would that result in

better relationships and a better

Society more broadly well here's one way

of looking at it so let's say you take

the alternative approach okay um you're

going to try your partner on for size so

you live together well first of all we

know that couples who live together are

more likely to get divorced rather than

less we know that the probability of

cheating is

proportionate to the number of Partners

before the marriage or the committed

relationship well well partly that's

just self-evidence like the best

predictor of future behavior is past

Behavior right so if you had a lot of

Partners you're the sort of person who's

likely to have a lot of Partners and

then the there's also a conceptual

problem it's like is are you shopping

for a car it's like you're going to take

it out for a test drive and see how it

goes okay that's not the right

metaphor and

then here's another problem I'm going to

see what it's like to be married by

living with this person it's like no

you're not because you don't know what

it's like to be married until you're

married whatever you're doing when you

live together that's not a model for

what you're going to do when you're

married because being married is

different it's permanent so you're

saying don't live together before you

well I know the stats on living together

it's like you live with someone and and

then you marry them you're more likely

to get divorced it doesn't work like the

the the theory was you try it out and if

it works you go ahead with it yeah yeah

well the theory was wrong because that

isn't that isn't what happens it

actually increases the probability that

the relationship will fail it's also

partly you got to ask yourself what the

message is I know what the message is

when you live with someone it's pretty

straightforward you'll do unless someone

better comes along and I'll Grant you

the same opportunity but Jesus that

that's a hell of a foundation for a mar

for a like long-term relationship so you

saying go go from single to married and

living together straight away without

the like Tri on period Well I don't know

exactly what the trial period should be

I mean people have

dated and I'm also not saying that this

is simple it's not simp why would it be

simple it's not there isn't anything

more difficult that you do in your

entire life than find a partner and

establish a family it's like it's going

to hard how to do it optimally well I

can tell you in my own experience you

know like I I've known my wife since she

was eight and we were friends good

friends and we kind of departed from

each other during adolescence um I was a

year younger than everyone in my class

and she matured faster women do anyways

and so that kind of split us apart and

we didn't get married till I think we

were about 27 something like that 28 but

it would have been better to do it

earlier so get married Al you yeah it's

just time I didn't have with

her what case would you make to me for

marriage versus because I'm I'll be

honest I'm wrestling with marriage not

just God um I'm trying to understand

what the what the point of marriage is

versus the relationship we have now is

but I can have children in the

yeah the general rule of thumb for life

is that you should do what other people

have done forever unless you have a

really good reason not to don't deviate

from the straight narrow path like you

are already deviating in all sorts of

ways you're very entrepreneurial MH

right so your life has a variety of

adventurous Pathways you're going to want

want

to put Firm Foundation wherever you can

that'll actually free you up to do more adventurous

adventurous

things children are a multigenerational

commitment because it's children and grandchildren

grandchildren

and so the the marriage is a signifier

of that and in order to stay with

someone optimally over the longest

period of time possible it has to be

serious and for something to be serious

you have to throw everything at it you

know and you might say well love is

enough it's

like that's a very naive view of the

world because there'll be

times because that's kind of like saying

well as long as we love each other and

we're happy we'll be together it's like

well if you're talking 40 years there's

going to be plenty of years in there

where you're not happy and you probably

don't love each other so what then

you're going to just is it just going to

dissolve or are you going to say we're

in this you know come hell or high water

which is the vow come hell or high and

hell in high water they're coming and

then you got to ask yourself you know is

this the person you want in the boat

with you when hell and high water come

and that's not going to be fun that's

for sure you want to do it alone or you

think that when everything falls apart

around you you're going to be in a

better position to find someone better I

don't think so it's a long and then you

know you you take the marital vow in a

religious sense and you do it in front

of a community right so it's it

signifies commitment and you need that

because like you think you can maintain

all that commitment on your own maybe

you can I doubt it generally people

can't like no one we need to fortify

ourselves in all sorts of ways to get

through the things in life that are most

difficult but the traditional marriage

agreement one that's a legal agreement

yeah does it need to be can can I not

take my partner have a wedding in front

of our friends and family sign a

contract maybe even do it in a sort of

relig religious context without having

it to be a Rel like a legal document

that the government are involved in well

you could but is it not the same bond to

you there you're talking about a

multitude of different bonds right

fundamentally right you're the the one

that you're prioritizing is the bond

that's voluntary and predicated on what

the love of the moment I mean we want to

be precise here right that so I think

that's a reasonably reasonable way of

conceptualizing it and it is a romantic

view that that should Prevail and it's a

romantic view that that should be

sufficient I don't think it there's it's

often the case that it doesn't Prevail

and it's generally the the case that

it's not sufficient and so then you

might say well maybe you want to add a

legal element to that and you want to

add a metaphysical element to it because

those are all fortifications MH and

they're indications even to yourself

that you're serious it's not like we

understand ourselves you know like

people are just as mysterious to

themselves as someone else is mysterious

to them you go ask yourself it's like

okay well what

what

processes what do I have to put in place

to sure that

I'm doing the right thing well when

you're embarking on something difficult

like marriage then you better have

everything necessary in place if you and

Tammy hadn't got married yeah and you

were just in a relationship like I am

with my

partner how do you think your life would

be different and do you think you I

don't think it would have lasted you

don't think your life would have lasted

oh well relation that's that that's

undoubtedly true

I mean both of us just about died in the

last 5 years and I don't mean by a

little bit I mean like it

was touch and go for a long time

so it was a good thing everything was in

place through that I mean the the waters

were pretty high for the last three

years four years socially professionally

physically the what are you wrestling

with exactly like in this issue you know

I mean you're it seems like you're

trying to sort out the relationship

between the emotional attachment and the

personal attachment and the social

structures that say surround marriage

it's it's complicated because even any

answer I might give you is if you go

down that spiral you might find

something at the bottom of it that's not

what I'm saying so what I mean by that

is definitely just as you asked that

question I just got a glimpse of I just

had a bit of a flash toct my issues with

commitment and how I watched okay so

what you fantasy no I just I just

remember recalling feeling like my dad

was in prison when he was in in his

relationship so I think that's still so

now I can tell you what to do with that

so you bring those images to mind right

so you've got this question in mind you

just you just found out something you

said that there's something at the

bottom of this okay now if you watch

your fantasies they'll shed light on

this descent into the abyss so to speak

now you had a flash of memory okay that

memory is associated with all sorts of

things you can bring that to mind and

let it play itself out right and it'll

explore the Contours of the problem that

you're now you put your finger on a very

important problem you said that you saw

in your father someone who's trapped in

his marriage yeah well it's no bloody

wonder you're leery of that right so now

you okay so now the question would be

what was the nature of that entrapment

what evidence did you have that that was

in fact the case how much of that was

him how much of that was her and what is

it that they did wrong and right you

need to know all of that and you need to

know how it affected you that's a great

obser see that's so cool because that

very frequently happens to people when

they ask a question that's like a

revelation so you ask a question that's

like a prayer the question is is there

something at the bottom of my the

trouble I'm having conceptualizing

marriage okay now you want to know

that's the first precondition okay then

you'll get memory images like that and

then people shy away it's like I don't

want to go there it's like yeah that's

for sure you bloody well don't want to

go there but you do because if it's

there you will go there right it'll

plague you and it'll plague your life

it'll it'll show its head continually in

your relationship or you can get to the

bottom of it which is people will fight

their whole life with their partner to

avoid getting to the bottom of something

that's how terrifying it is to get to

the bottom of something right

but if you do get to the bottom of it

then you don't have to fight for 30

years so that's very much worthwhile and

it'll Enlighten you as

well you know because you're you have a

real issue it's like how can marriage

not be a trap Yeah well yeah right

definitely that's a very good question

and and an important one how can

marriage be a trap how can not being

married be a trap how can being alone

being a trap be a trap how can being

deluded Ed about what holds people

together be a trap there's traps everywhere man there's traps everywhere

everywhere man there's traps everywhere and so there's no risk-free mo pathway

and so there's no risk-free mo pathway forward there's just risk everywhere

forward there's just risk everywhere okay so that's a really useful thing to

okay so that's a really useful thing to know then the question would shift to

know then the question would shift to something like well if I wanted to

something like well if I wanted to construct a relationship that had that

construct a relationship that had that was

was optimized that's what you have to ask

optimized that's what you have to ask yourself it's like and your and your and

yourself it's like and your and your and your partner it's like what we doing

your partner it's like what we doing here what do we want Tammy and I decided

here what do we want Tammy and I decided for example when we first got married we

for example when we first got married we I well I mentioned this to her right

I well I mentioned this to her right away when we decided that we were going

away when we decided that we were going to take things seriously it was like

to take things seriously it was like we're going to tell each other the

we're going to tell each other the truth so that was part of the vision

truth so that was part of the vision like no matter what no matter what yeah

like no matter what no matter what yeah no matter what she's been very good at

no matter what she's been very good at that I would say better than me I've

that I would say better than me I've been good at it but she's been really

been good at it but she's been really quite remarkably good at it she really

quite remarkably good at it she really threw herself into it and I mean

threw herself into it and I mean that's that causes an complete

that's that causes an complete transformation but there's plenty of

transformation but there's plenty of skeletons in the closet to be revealed

skeletons in the closet to be revealed God that's for sure talking of things

God that's for sure talking of things that risk harming relationships one of

that risk harming relationships one of the things I wanted to ask you about

the things I wanted to ask you about subject we've never spoke about before

subject we've never spoke about before but it ties into the themes of

but it ties into the themes of relationships marriage and um and sex is

relationships marriage and um and sex is pornography and generally oh another

pornography and generally oh another reason that sex has disappeared yeah

reason that sex has disappeared yeah right right you talk about headism in

right right you talk about headism in your book um we who wrestle with God

your book um we who wrestle with God pornography is this a bad thing is a

pornography is this a bad thing is a terrible thing yeah it's a terrible

terrible thing yeah it's a terrible thing everything about it is terrible

thing everything about it is terrible really well first of all it's addictive

really well first of all it's addictive and no wonder I mean any 13-year-old

and no wonder I mean any 13-year-old boy can now look at more

boy can now look at more beautiful naked women in one day

beautiful naked women in one day than the greatest King who ever lived

than the greatest King who ever lived managed in his whole

life right so it's like wow that's not and talk me through the downstream

and talk me through the downstream consequences of such a possibility easy

consequences of such a possibility easy it's easy yeah it's easy to get what

it's easy yeah it's easy to get what sexual gratification that's not good

sexual gratification that's not good it's not supposed to be easy and it's

it's not supposed to be easy and it's easy

easy so how desperate do you have to be to

so how desperate do you have to be to get married

get married not desperate at all it's like yeah

not desperate at all it's like yeah right what do you know you don't know

right what do you know you don't know anything I'm married just because I'm in

anything I'm married just because I'm in love you're an idiot God to to to to put

love you're an idiot God to to to to put you in a position

you in a position where you're going to have the romantic

where you're going to have the romantic adventure of your life the true romantic

adventure of your life the true romantic adventure of your life you're going to

adventure of your life you're going to need love and Desperation buddy you're

need love and Desperation buddy you're going to need everything working on your

going to need everything working on your side love desperation Terror shame guilt

side love desperation Terror shame guilt everything working for you and so you

everything working for you and so you take the easy

take the easy Road pornography sure you're not

Road pornography sure you're not desperate

desperate anymore so people that consume

anymore so people that consume pornography do you think they're less

pornography do you think they're less motivated to attack life and to well

motivated to attack life and to well they're definitely less motivated to

they're definitely less motivated to pursue sexual relationships with women

pursue sexual relationships with women by way of that are they then less likely

by way of that are they then less likely to then want to go to the gym or have a

to then want to go to the gym or have a career definitely it's an interesting

career definitely it's an interesting idea how much how much of what men do do

idea how much how much of what men do do they do to impress women a lot like yeah

they do to impress women a lot like yeah like all of it

like all of it all of it I mean the status battles that

all of it I mean the status battles that men back to the law firms for example so

men back to the law firms for example so the the men I worked with they're very

the the men I worked with they're very concerned with their bonuses and their

concerned with their bonuses and their and their you know their end of the year

and their you know their end of the year performance reports why well part of it

performance reports why well part of it was the money most of them had lots of

was the money most of them had lots of money it's like I'd asked them they say

money it's like I'd asked them they say well that's the money is how we keep

well that's the money is how we keep score well what does that mean well it's

score well what does that mean well it's money is the way that men in those

money is the way that men in those competitive Enterprises say they they

competitive Enterprises say they they compare themselves to one another and

compare themselves to one another and why do they want to be at the top cuz

why do they want to be at the top cuz women peel from the top so men are

women peel from the top so men are trying to impress women all the time and

trying to impress women all the time and they'll do it in positive ways and in

they'll do it in positive ways and in pathological ways the window for sexual

pathological ways the window for sexual representation started to open in the

representation started to open in the 1920s let's say but it really got going

1920s let's say but it really got going with Playboy then Penthouse came out

with Playboy then Penthouse came out right after that and Penthouse was like

right after that and Penthouse was like full frontal nudity display and then

full frontal nudity display and then Hustler came out and Hustler was sort of

Hustler came out and Hustler was sort of well whatever Penthouse didn't show you

well whatever Penthouse didn't show you Hustler will show and it got pretty low

Hustler will show and it got pretty low brow like it was a rough low class

brow like it was a rough low class magazine it didn't it just shed all the

magazine it didn't it just shed all the pretentions that Playboy and Penthouse

pretentions that Playboy and Penthouse had and then the net came along it's

had and then the net came along it's like all those Engineers who couldn't

like all those Engineers who couldn't establish a relationship with an actual

establish a relationship with an actual woman exchanging pornography what 25% of

woman exchanging pornography what 25% of internet traffic something like that

internet traffic something like that that desire to exchange pornography was

that desire to exchange pornography was that what created the

that what created the net

net yeah was a huge part of it what's that

yeah was a huge part of it what's that done well as you pointed out I think 30%

done well as you pointed out I think 30% now of Japanese men and women under 30

now of Japanese men and women under 30 are virgins it's about the same in Korea

are virgins it's about the same in Korea relationships between men and women are

relationships between men and women are falling apart in the in the rest of the

falling apart in the in the rest of the West in the same sort of

way now can you attribute that to pornography

pornography certainly part like if I was a young

certainly part like if I was a young woman and I was looking at the

woman and I was looking at the pornography World online I'd think yeah

pornography World online I'd think yeah maybe not one of the interesting things

maybe not one of the interesting things we noticed when we're doing some

we noticed when we're doing some research on this was what the top Google

research on this was what the top Google search around this subject matter is how

search around this subject matter is how do I quit and I think like the third one

do I quit and I think like the third one is how do I quit and and that it's in

is how do I quit and and that it's in such high quantity of people searching

such high quantity of people searching Google for how to quit pornography that

Google for how to quit pornography that it feels desperate like it feels

it feels desperate like it feels desperate well why wouldn't it it be

desperate well why wouldn't it it be addictive like and why doesn't

addictive like and why doesn't pornography feel good to people that's a

pornography feel good to people that's a good question that's a good question

good question that's a good question well there's nothing heroic about it

well there's nothing heroic about it that's for sure it's like it's it's

that's for sure it's like it's it's obviously nothing to be proud of that's

obviously nothing to be proud of that's a different issue than whether or not

a different issue than whether or not it's wrong right it's certainly not an

it's wrong right it's certainly not an accomplishment yeah I mean I don't think

accomplishment yeah I mean I don't think anyone would disagree about that it's

anyone would disagree about that it's not an accomplishment well maybe sex is

not an accomplishment well maybe sex is supposed to be an

supposed to be an accomplishment maybe you violate the

accomplishment maybe you violate the spirit of sex uality itself when it's

spirit of sex uality itself when it's not an accomplishment you certainly do

not an accomplishment you certainly do that if you rape mhm

that if you rape mhm right so is it an

right so is it an accomplishment

accomplishment probably so what if your accomplishment

probably so what if your accomplishment is false well then are what are you

is false well then are what are you betraying well if it's associated with

betraying well if it's associated with sex maybe you're betraying the most

sex maybe you're betraying the most fundamental possible thing certainly

fundamental possible thing certainly Poss like what there's life and sex

Poss like what there's life and sex that's pretty much that right

that's pretty much that right you're alive and you reproduce from a

you're alive and you reproduce from a biological perspective and so you're

biological perspective and so you're violating the spirit of what you're

violating the spirit of what you're maybe you're violating the spirit of

maybe you're violating the spirit of relationship maybe you're violating the

relationship maybe you're violating the spirit of Adventure the spirit of

spirit of Adventure the spirit of Romance the spirit of reproduction the

Romance the spirit of reproduction the spirit of

spirit of Life

Life likely it's it's so interesting that

likely it's it's so interesting that people seem to be a lot of people seem

people seem to be a lot of people seem to be angry at it they they seem to be

to be angry at it they they seem to be angry with what it's done to should

angry with what it's done to should angry they should be angry even on an

angry they should be angry even on an individual level people seem in the

individual level people seem in the comment section of these episodes that

comment section of these episodes that we've done about the subject matter

we've done about the subject matter people seem to be angry about its

people seem to be angry about its existence and what it's done to them

existence and what it's done to them they should be angry they should be

they should be angry they should be outraged it's outrageous it's outrageous

outraged it's outrageous it's outrageous would you ban it if you were in charge

would you ban it if you were in charge of the

world I don't know how to answer that I think any policy that policies that

think any policy that policies that require Force rather than voluntary

require Force rather than voluntary compliance are generally bad

compliance are generally bad policies there are restrictions that

policies there are restrictions that should be placed on its

should be placed on its distribution but I would have to spend a

distribution but I would have to spend a lot of time thinking through what those

lot of time thinking through what those were from a policy

were from a policy perspective I think it's wrong no I

perspective I think it's wrong no I don't think I know it's wrong that

don't think I know it's wrong that doesn't mean I know how that should be

doesn't mean I know how that should be dealt with at the level of policy it's

dealt with at the level of policy it's complicated I do understand why young

complicated I do understand why young men and young women are angry about it

men and young women are angry about it it's like where are the adults where are

it's like where are the adults where are the adults where have they gone they're

the adults where have they gone they're not protecting like 11-year-old kids

not protecting like 11-year-old kids from what you can see on the

from what you can see on the net you know I remember when I was a kid

net you know I remember when I was a kid I I I got a hold of some of these

I I I got a hold of some of these underground comics from the 1960s and a

underground comics from the 1960s and a lot of the underground com comic artists

lot of the underground com comic artists were they are pretty pathological

were they are pretty pathological creatures like Robert crumb's a good

creatures like Robert crumb's a good example Crum led a pretty good life for

example Crum led a pretty good life for someone as demented as he is and there's

someone as demented as he is and there's a very famous documentary made about the

a very famous documentary made about the crumb brothers and Robert crumb was the

crumb brothers and Robert crumb was the establisher he was one of the people who

establisher he was one of the people who established the genre of graphic novel

established the genre of graphic novel really back in the 60s in heid Ashbury

really back in the 60s in heid Ashbury in San Francisco and his imagination

in San Francisco and his imagination goes places that you don't want to you

goes places that you don't want to you don't want to be along for the ride

don't want to be along for the ride seriously like seriously and I read some

seriously like seriously and I read some of that material when I was like 11 you

of that material when I was like 11 you know I never forgot it it was shocking

know I never forgot it it was shocking as hell and like typical 11-year-old now

as hell and like typical 11-year-old now it's

it's like there are things that he is going

like there are things that he is going to see that he'll never forget it's not

to see that he'll never forget it's not good and the brain is still forming at

good and the brain is still forming at that age isn't it so it's oh definitely

that age isn't it so it's oh definitely interesting way to shock the bra well we

interesting way to shock the bra well we also don't know well that's right we

also don't know well that's right we have no idea whatsoever what a diet of

have no idea whatsoever what a diet of pornography exposure does to somebody

pornography exposure does to somebody who's you know making their way through

who's you know making their way through puberty what would you say to the those

puberty what would you say to the those individuals then that have been Googling

individuals then that have been Googling that like how to quit because I imagine

that like how to quit because I imagine if we thought about percentages I'd say

if we thought about percentages I'd say what 90% of people that are listening

what 90% of people that are listening right now watch pornography at least I

right now watch pornography at least I don't know what the numbers are but but

don't know what the numbers are but but it's a lot of lot of people it's the

it's a lot of lot of people it's the vast majority write down write down what

vast majority write down write down what it's doing to you write down what it's

it's doing to you write down what it's doing to write down every exhaustively

doing to write down every exhaustively everything you think it might be doing

everything you think it might be doing to you write it down everything don't

to you write it down everything don't don't worry about whether you're right

don't worry about whether you're right or not like maybe it's not doing some of

or not like maybe it's not doing some of the things you think it might be doing

the things you think it might be doing but make an exhaustive list

but make an exhaustive list then start thinking through is like is

then start thinking through is like is that what you want is that what you want

that what you want is that what you want and then write down what you want

and then write down what you want instead that'll help because if you're

instead that'll help because if you're going to

going to look any hedonistic Endeavor is

look any hedonistic Endeavor is rewarding in the moment obviously the

rewarding in the moment obviously the problem is is the price you pay for it

problem is is the price you pay for it in the medium to long run right that's

in the medium to long run right that's the problem it's the contradiction

the problem it's the contradiction between those two things that's the

between those two things that's the problem okay now if you want to quit

problem okay now if you want to quit doing something that's gratifying in the

doing something that's gratifying in the short term you need to know why right

short term you need to know why right because otherwise you won't have the

because otherwise you won't have the willpower you won't have

willpower you won't have the the part of you that thinks well

the the part of you that thinks well what the hell will win what the hell

what the hell will win what the hell which is what people think when they do

which is what people think when they do something they shouldn't do and they

something they shouldn't do and they should notice what they say to

should notice what they say to themselves when when they're making that

themselves when when they're making that rationalization because what the hell

rationalization because what the hell refers to

refers to hell and you the reason to stop doing

hell and you the reason to stop doing things that are self-destructive is

things that are self-destructive is because they're self destructive I mean

because they're self destructive I mean is that the sort of person you want to

is that the sort of person you want to be is that the model you'd like to have

be is that the model you'd like to have for your son for example is that the way

for your son for example is that the way you would imagine that someone you

you would imagine that someone you admire would act these are good

admire would act these are good questions to ask

questions to ask yourself no are you the sort of person

yourself no are you the sort of person that is acting out a pattern that you

that is acting out a pattern that you think is admirable I don't think

think is admirable I don't think pornography masturbation fits into the

pornography masturbation fits into the ideal of heroic

ideal of heroic masculinity I don't think anybody thinks

masculinity I don't think anybody thinks that it's there's something furtive

that it's there's something furtive about it and second rate obviously like

about it and second rate obviously like OB it's ridiculous in a sense that we

OB it's ridiculous in a sense that we even have to have this discussion

even have to have this discussion because

because obviously well these things creep in

obviously well these things creep in don't they to society and they

don't they to society and they become first they creep then they

become first they creep then they Rampage we almost can't remember a time

Rampage we almost can't remember a time if you're a young person when there

if you're a young person when there wasn't pornography you you definitely

wasn't pornography you you definitely can't remember you open up an app and

can't remember you open up an app and you get absolutely 100% oh and it's

you get absolutely 100% oh and it's going to get way worse wait till there

going to get way worse wait till there are AI equipped adjustable

are AI equipped adjustable pornographic succu by then we're really

pornographic succu by then we're really going to have fun cuz we're already at a

going to have fun cuz we're already at a at the point now where with a decent

at the point now where with a decent chatbot a really alienated young man can

chatbot a really alienated young man can have a better conversation with a decent

have a better conversation with a decent chatbot than with anybody he's ever

chatbot than with anybody he's ever talked to in his entire

talked to in his entire life right now they're going to get a

life right now they're going to get a lot smarter and soon they're going to

lot smarter and soon they're going to have like well you can all there's

have like well you can all there's already Services of this sort available

already Services of this sort available they'll be fully

they'll be fully fleshed out two-dimensional women

fleshed out two-dimensional women they're not women simulacra of

they're not women simulacra of women right so yeah it's interesting

women right so yeah it's interesting because with my head in design your own

because with my head in design your own girlfriend she w't call she give you she

girlfriend she w't call she give you she don't argue with you she won't do the 90

don't argue with you she won't do the 90 minutes a week yeah right right she'll

minutes a week yeah right right she'll give you everything you want but that's

give you everything you want but that's not true she'll give the worst part of

not true she'll give the worst part of you everything it wants Jesus that's not

you everything it wants Jesus that's not good the worst weakest part of you will

good the worst weakest part of you will get get exactly what it wants that's not

get get exactly what it wants that's not good that's Ser that's seriously not

good that's Ser that's seriously not good I mean that's what pornography is

good I mean that's what pornography is kind of doing right definitely yeah well

kind of doing right definitely yeah well and there's an edge to it too right

and there's an edge to it too right because one of

because one of the pleasure is enhanced by

novelty right so so that that brings up an issue with regards to marriage you

an issue with regards to marriage you know I talked to Bill Maher Bill's

know I talked to Bill Maher Bill's alone and he's my age

alone and he's my age you know and that's painful but he said

you know and that's painful but he said to me you know in his Hollywood

to me you know in his Hollywood hedonistic manner that he really

hedonistic manner that he really couldn't imagine being with the same

couldn't imagine being with the same woman you know for any length of time

woman you know for any length of time it's a novelty issue it's like

it's a novelty issue it's like well are you restricted by the woman or

well are you restricted by the woman or are you restricted by the limits of your

are you restricted by the limits of your own

own imagination this is an important

imagination this is an important question like I would

say if you establish the optimized relationship with someone you they're

relationship with someone you they're inexhaustible that doesn't mean novelty

inexhaustible that doesn't mean novelty isn't important it's important that's

isn't important it's important that's part of

part of play so yeah a lot of people struggle

play so yeah a lot of people struggle with that got a lot of friends that

with that got a lot of friends that struggle with this idea of being with

struggle with this idea of being with the same person forever um the same

the same person forever um the same person the problem well but that's

person the problem well but that's really no look I I understand like I

really no look I I understand like I know that novelty enhances pleasure so

know that novelty enhances pleasure so the question is how do you keep your

the question is how do you keep your relationship alive that means novel you

relationship alive that means novel you play it's interesting because actually

play it's interesting because actually what I actually think is happening there

what I actually think is happening there is it's not that they are miserable with

is it's not that they are miserable with the same person forever it's actually

the same person forever it's actually the thought that's kind of what I said

the thought that's kind of what I said the thought of being with the same

the thought of being with the same that's part that trap yeah well okay so

that's part that trap yeah well okay so that's very good observation because

that's very good observation because what see because that thought is going

what see because that thought is going to have a story attached to it the story

to have a story attached to it the story is going to be something like well I'm

is going to be something like well I'm with this person we both become

with this person we both become unattractive quite rapidly we get

unattractive quite rapidly we get alienated from one another there's no

alienated from one another there's no sexual dynamism or romance or excitement

sexual dynamism or romance or excitement and then we just sit you know and eat

and then we just sit you know and eat like cold eggs while looking at each

like cold eggs while looking at each other harshly over the table at

other harshly over the table at breakfast for 40 years yeah well yeah

breakfast for 40 years yeah well yeah that's

that's dismal so you know maybe don't do that

dismal so you know maybe don't do that yeah yeah there's an element of control

yeah yeah there's an element of control to it on this point of headism as well I

to it on this point of headism as well I was thinking because we're talk about

was thinking because we're talk about pornography but there's many types of

pornography but there's many types of headism in my life whether it's you know

headism in my life whether it's you know eating the

eating the the cookie this is a I don't actually do

the cookie this is a I don't actually do this but it's a metaphor of eating the

this but it's a metaphor of eating the cookie from the mini bar in my hotel

cookie from the mini bar in my hotel room here in New York at 1:00 a.m. in

room here in New York at 1:00 a.m. in the morning when I know tomorrow I'm

the morning when I know tomorrow I'm going to regret it there's all these

going to regret it there's all these forms of headism like scrolling on Tik

forms of headism like scrolling on Tik Tok or whatever it might be and headism

Tok or whatever it might be and headism shows up in my life in these little

shows up in my life in these little uncontrolled like oh gosh [ __ ] made a

uncontrolled like oh gosh [ __ ] made a mistake of course and it sometimes shows

mistake of course and it sometimes shows up when I'm disabled in some way

up when I'm disabled in some way emotionally disabled and so it's almost

emotionally disabled and so it's almost it feels like it's a form of medicine

it feels like it's a form of medicine now I I could write down on this page

now I I could write down on this page who I want to be I could say I don't

who I want to be I could say I don't want to be the person eats the cookie I

want to be the person eats the cookie I don't want to be on Tik Tok I don't want

don't want to be on Tik Tok I don't want to watch pornography all those kinds of

to watch pornography all those kinds of things but then staving off that moment

things but then staving off that moment where you know you're you're weakened in

where you know you're you're weakened in some way and I use that word maybe

some way and I use that word maybe you're weakened in some way by something

you're weakened in some way by something tired or

tired or whatever sticking to those principles

whatever sticking to those principles when in that moment when it's hard is

when in that moment when it's hard is that just again a case of just being

that just again a case of just being clear on what I want in the long ter

clear on what I want in the long ter well that helps it helps practice helps

well that helps it helps practice helps um surrounding yourself with people who

um surrounding yourself with people who have the same aim and that keep

have the same aim and that keep you um responsible MH accountable that

you um responsible MH accountable that helps oh yeah you need all of that

helps oh yeah you need all of that because that battle the battle between

because that battle the battle between immediate gratification and medium to

immediate gratification and medium to long-term investment that's a real

long-term investment that's a real battle you know like the the right

battle you know like the the right amount of pleasure in the moment isn't

amount of pleasure in the moment isn't zero yeah okay I want to live a life of

zero yeah okay I want to live a life of misery so well right right and you can't

misery so well right right and you can't you don't want to be the joy grind for

you don't want to be the joy grind for whom everything is

whom everything is tomorrow yeah right it's very hard to

tomorrow yeah right it's very hard to because what you're trying to do is

because what you're trying to do is you're trying to optimize emotion and

you're trying to optimize emotion and strategy over all time frames and you

strategy over all time frames and you don't know how long that time frame is

don't know how long that time frame is well that that's also a problem exactly

well that that's also a problem exactly exactly might have one day left or right

exactly might have one day left or right so I don't need to well we also know you

so I don't need to well we also know you know when people are say off to a battle

know when people are say off to a battle in Wartime they party like there's no

in Wartime they party like there's no tomorrow well

tomorrow well because maybe there isn't so

because maybe there isn't so definitely the the religious insistence

definitely the the religious insistence is that you should live in the light of

is that you should live in the light of Eternity right is that you should

Eternity right is that you should attempt to conduct yourself in a manner

attempt to conduct yourself in a manner that is best All Things Considered over

that is best All Things Considered over the longest possible conceivable span of

the longest possible conceivable span of time now does that mean don't have the

desert no no because no it doesn't mean that because look in the biblical text

that because look in the biblical text for example there is an insistence that

for example there is an insistence that uh the spirit of the Divine wants the

uh the spirit of the Divine wants the provision of life more abundant that's

provision of life more abundant that's the language the the idea of a fruitful

the language the the idea of a fruitful Garden an Earthly Garden of delights

Garden an Earthly Garden of delights even that's part and parcel of a vision

even that's part and parcel of a vision of paradise it's not joyless it's it's

of paradise it's not joyless it's it's harmoniously balanced I think best way

harmoniously balanced I think best way to think about it is likely musically

to think about it is likely musically you know in in a musical piece that's

you know in in a musical piece that's great every know has its place every

great every know has its place every note has its proper place in

note has its proper place in relationship to the whole right but

relationship to the whole right but every note is also worthwhile well

every note is also worthwhile well that's what you want is you want to

that's what you want is you want to balance your concentration on the

balance your concentration on the present with your apprehension of the

present with your apprehension of the medium to long run so I'll give you an

medium to long run so I'll give you an example that so I did I did a course for

example that so I did I did a course for Peterson Academy called It's On The

Peterson Academy called It's On The Sermon on the Mount And The Sermon on

Sermon on the Mount And The Sermon on the Mount is the longest record we have

the Mount is the longest record we have of Christ's Direct utterances let's say

of Christ's Direct utterances let's say and it constitutes the core of Christian

and it constitutes the core of Christian ethics it's a set of instructions and

ethics it's a set of instructions and the instructions are very

the instructions are very specific so essentially the instruction

specific so essentially the instruction is to aim at every moment at what's

is to aim at every moment at what's highest okay so this something you have

highest okay so this something you have to practice okay so the idea is that at

to practice okay so the idea is that at each moment you're bringing to Bear a

each moment you're bringing to Bear a certain attitude and the attitude is I'm

certain attitude and the attitude is I'm going to do what's best

okay all things considered for me now for me now in a way that works tomorrow

for me now in a way that works tomorrow for me now in a way that works tomorrow

for me now in a way that works tomorrow and next week and next month and next

and next week and next month and next year and five years from now and 10

year and five years from now and 10 years from now in relationship to my

years from now in relationship to my wife in relationship to my kids to my

wife in relationship to my kids to my parents to my community right it's that

parents to my community right it's that whole identity you're optimizing that

whole identity you're optimizing that now you might not know how but that's

now you might not know how but that's your aim okay so that's that's the

your aim okay so that's that's the injunction to put the love of God above

injunction to put the love of God above all else to aim at what's highest now

all else to aim at what's highest now you don't exactly know how to do that

you don't exactly know how to do that but that doesn't matter you can specify

but that doesn't matter you can specify your aim right now no doubt you do

your aim right now no doubt you do something like that with your

something like that with your podcast right that's why it's successful

podcast right that's why it's successful yeah okay you agree with that yeah why

yeah okay you agree with that yeah why because it's it's difficult isn't it

because it's it's difficult isn't it there's just immense pressure when

there's just immense pressure when you're a podcaster um to aim at

you're a podcaster um to aim at something else and you have to me and

something else and you have to me and Jack talk about this a lot you have to

Jack talk about this a lot you have to have like a certain set of principles

have like a certain set of principles that are unnegotiable but whatever

that are unnegotiable but whatever principles you choose and believe in

principles you choose and believe in they come at a great cost okay what are

they come at a great cost okay what are the principles so see this is worth

the principles so see this is worth delving into because You' be very

delving into because You' be very successful as aast one of my principles

successful as aast one of my principles is I will I try not to judge the people

is I will I try not to judge the people I'm speaking to and I try not to come in

I'm speaking to and I try not to come in with um preconceptions I take them as I

with um preconceptions I take them as I meet them I I try not to I'm in such of

meet them I I try not to I'm in such of genuine curiosity in them or some kind

genuine curiosity in them or some kind of answer or truth

of answer or truth right so there's a surch in it yeah it's

right so there's a surch in it yeah it's that's a quest so you know an adventure

that's a quest so you know an adventure story is a quest did I answer that

story is a quest did I answer that question yeah yeah yeah there there's

question yeah yeah yeah there there's only one thing I would take issue with

only one thing I would take issue with you said that you don't judge see I

you said that you don't judge see I would say probably you don't condemn you

would say probably you don't condemn you have to judge because you have to listen

have to judge because you have to listen and you have to separate wheat from

and you have to separate wheat from chaff you have to evaluate but you can

chaff you have to evaluate but you can do that without careless condemn

do that without careless condemn condemnation or a priori what would you

condemnation or a priori what would you say like a tyrannical is insistence that

say like a tyrannical is insistence that what you know now is sufficient okay

what you know now is sufficient okay exactly yeah yeah you want to not people

exactly yeah yeah you want to not people say I'm not judgmental it's like that's

say I'm not judgmental it's like that's not a virtue you want to be you want to

not a virtue you want to be you want to use judgment all the time but that's not

use judgment all the time but that's not to con like I could judge you so I don't

to con like I could judge you so I don't ever have to listen to you about

ever have to listen to you about anything yeah judgment might happen in

anything yeah judgment might happen in my head but it's then about how I treat

my head but it's then about how I treat the person based on that judgment I

the person based on that judgment I don't want to treat them based I don't

don't want to treat them based I don't want to have some like higher um

want to have some like higher um egotistical values I'm I'm correct and

egotistical values I'm I'm correct and that yeah yeah that's that's right

that yeah yeah that's that's right that's exactly it that's a hypocritical

that's exactly it that's a hypocritical moralizing it's the moralizing it's like

moralizing it's the moralizing it's like I think I'm better than you because

I think I'm better than you because that's exactly exactly that's right you

that's exactly exactly that's right you don't want to you definitely don't want

don't want to you definitely don't want to do that in the podcast journalists

to do that in the podcast journalists the pathological journalists they that's

the pathological journalists they that's all they do all they're doing is

all they do all they're doing is establishing moral

establishing moral superiority on the flimsiest possible

superiority on the flimsiest possible grounds at the least possible cost in

grounds at the least possible cost in the most spectacular way yeah it's

the most spectacular way yeah it's really not it's hard being a podcaster

really not it's hard being a podcaster especially in this particular moment

especially in this particular moment where there's been such a

where there's been such a focus on podcasting because of what's

focus on podcasting because of what's happened in this election cycle yeah you

happened in this election cycle yeah you really have to be clear on what you

really have to be clear on what you believe in because the winds are going

believe in because the winds are going to blow like that the world is going to

to blow like that the world is going to try and sway you they're going to say

try and sway you they're going to say you can't speak to this person you have

you can't speak to this person you have to speak to this person don't do that

to speak to this person don't do that don't do this this is wrong and you go

don't do this this is wrong and you go okay so how do I weather such a storm

okay so how do I weather such a storm when when I know the storm is coming I

when when I know the storm is coming I have to look to Rogan to go yeah look at

have to look to Rogan to go yeah look at what you know Rogan The Arc of Rogan and

what you know Rogan The Arc of Rogan and if I'm if I'm also a podcaster just keep

if I'm if I'm also a podcaster just keep asking stupid

asking stupid questions yeah well that but you know

questions yeah well that but you know that is that Quest that and and what

that is that Quest that and and what people want in a discussion is a quest

people want in a discussion is a quest they want to see blood hounds on the

they want to see blood hounds on the trail towards some truth that's what

trail towards some truth that's what they're after they want to participate

they're after they want to participate in that same with the public lectures I

in that same with the public lectures I do I'm always trying to answer a

do I'm always trying to answer a question I don't know what the answer is

question I don't know what the answer is when I go on stage it's a real question

when I go on stage it's a real question do you think Joe has Joe Rogan I've

do you think Joe has Joe Rogan I've never actually met him but do you think

never actually met him but do you think he's just has great faith in humans and

he's just has great faith in humans and there because there's obviously been a

there because there's obviously been a lot of pressure on on him so how he

lot of pressure on on him so how he survived that is he just has faith in

survived that is he just has faith in who he is he has faith in his own

who he is he has faith in his own ignorance okay and that those watching

ignorance okay and that those watching which is a lot of people watching Rogan

which is a lot of people watching Rogan will understand yeah yeah yeah yeah

will understand yeah yeah yeah yeah Joe's on a quest he's trying to be

Joe's on a quest he's trying to be smarter than he is that's what Joe does

smarter than he is that's what Joe does it's curiosity that's driving him this

it's curiosity that's driving him this is what musk said too about himself and

is what musk said too about himself and he said that's to me when I interviewed

he said that's to me when I interviewed him he said that was how he reconciled

him he said that was how he reconciled he had a terrible existential crisis

he had a terrible existential crisis when he was like 13 you know and he

when he was like 13 you know and he reconciled that essentially with the

reconciled that essentially with the quest he decided that he could just

quest he decided that he could just pursue truth pursue knowledge pursue

pursue truth pursue knowledge pursue understanding and that that would that's

understanding and that that would that's meaningful intrinsically and valuable

meaningful intrinsically and valuable intrinsically and that's the beginnings

intrinsically and that's the beginnings of a religious orientation or more than

of a religious orientation or more than the beginnings even because the quest is

the beginnings even because the quest is a religious Pursuit it's pursuit of the

a religious Pursuit it's pursuit of the truth it's pursuit of the treasure that

truth it's pursuit of the treasure that the dragon guards right and so treasures

the dragon guards right and so treasures and Dragons they're always in the same

and Dragons they're always in the same place it's very annoying it's a good

place it's very annoying it's a good thing to know though because if a dragon

thing to know though because if a dragon shows up you can always ask yourself

shows up you can always ask yourself where the treasure is might be close

where the treasure is might be close it's

it's there so okay so back to The Sermon on

there so okay so back to The Sermon on the Mount because we're talking about

the Mount because we're talking about orientation so aim

orientation so aim up assume that other people have the

up assume that other people have the same value as you do and that that value

same value as you do and that that value is associated with whatever is divine

is associated with whatever is divine and and then concentrate on the moment

and and then concentrate on the moment mhm right so it's the the most distant

mhm right so it's the the most distant possible upward aim with the most

possible upward aim with the most intense possible concentration on the

intense possible concentration on the moment right you're good at

moment right you're good at that that's what that's I can't say

that that's what that's I can't say that's what's made you successful but

that's what's made you successful but it's certainly part of it

it's certainly part of it because you pay attention see that's

because you pay attention see that's that's what paying attention means

that's what paying attention means because you want your your your intent

because you want your your your intent to be focused because otherwise your

to be focused because otherwise your attention is fragmented so you want your

attention is fragmented so you want your attention to be focused now your

attention to be focused now your attention is focused on something now we

attention is focused on something now we we we pulled it apart a little bit you

we we pulled it apart a little bit you said that you're you know you have these

said that you're you know you have these principles and that you're trying to

principles and that you're trying to learn and so your attention is pretty

learn and so your attention is pretty focused and then you bring all that to

focused and then you bring all that to bear in the moment right and then people

bear in the moment right and then people find that compelling because they're on

find that compelling because they're on they're they're along for the ride

they're they're along for the ride they're long for the adventure and that

they're long for the adventure and that is Meaningful it's the essence of

is Meaningful it's the essence of meaningful and so so so what we were

meaningful and so so so what we were trying to address was the relationship

trying to address was the relationship between Hedonism and and say intelligent

between Hedonism and and say intelligent long-term pro-social strategy you can

long-term pro-social strategy you can you want the both you want you want

you want the both you want you want there's a

there's a optimized solution that delivers both

optimized solution that delivers both far better than any other solution this

far better than any other solution this is the pearl of great price that Christ

is the pearl of great price that Christ speaks about that anyone wise and

speaks about that anyone wise and Wealthy would sell everything they own

Wealthy would sell everything they own to purchase there isn't anything better

to purchase there isn't anything better than that for the for the person

than that for the for the person listening right now that is struggling

listening right now that is struggling with this concept of like we talked

with this concept of like we talked about headism discipline like they're

about headism discipline like they're just so far from it because there's a

just so far from it because there's a scale of people that are you know able

scale of people that are you know able to stay focused on the long term for the

to stay focused on the long term for the people at the very other end of the

people at the very other end of the scale who just look at their lives and

scale who just look at their lives and go I just I hear what he's

go I just I hear what he's saying for some reason it's not working

saying for some reason it's not working like I can't get out of this situation y

like I can't get out of this situation y you meet maybe you can't start on the

you meet maybe you can't start on the porn side then you know like my this

porn side then you know like my this is how a good behavior analyst

is how a good behavior analyst approaches problems of that sort it's

approaches problems of that sort it's like

like okay is there something in your life

okay is there something in your life that you know is not right that you

that you know is not right that you could improve that you would

could improve that you would improve any step

improve any step whatsoever well generally you can just

whatsoever well generally you can just ask yourself that question it's like

ask yourself that question it's like it's a contemplative exercise sit on the

it's a contemplative exercise sit on the edge of your bed and think okay where is

edge of your bed and think okay where is my life off-kilter

my life off-kilter is so then then you have a variety of

is so then then you have a variety of ideas about how yeah okay okay I'm on my

ideas about how yeah okay okay I'm on my mom's bed I'm me I've got no

mom's bed I'm me I've got no relationship my job's crap I hate it

relationship my job's crap I hate it okay then I'd say zero in on one of

okay then I'd say zero in on one of those yeah and find some small thing

those yeah and find some small thing that you could fix that you would fix

that you could fix that you would fix why a small thing well because look at

why a small thing well because look at you you're completely godamn useless you

you you're completely godamn useless you you better find something small that you

you better find something small that you can do now if you can find a big thing

can do now if you can find a big thing good but obviously you haven't been able

good but obviously you haven't been able to CU all these problems exist so

to CU all these problems exist so see one of the emphasis in the religious

see one of the emphasis in the religious realm let's say is humility one of the

realm let's say is humility one of the things that's emphasized well what's

things that's emphasized well what's humility what's the opposite of Pride

humility what's the opposite of Pride well humility is starting where you

well humility is starting where you are that's what humility is and it's

are that's what humility is and it's annoying because you know like if your

annoying because you know like if your life is a mess then you have to see that

life is a mess then you have to see that you're the person in that mess then you

you're the person in that mess then you have to understand that your

have to understand that your first attempt to redress the mess might

first attempt to redress the mess might not be something you're particularly

not be something you're particularly proud of you know I mean I saw this Lots

proud of you know I mean I saw this Lots in my clinical practice where people

in my clinical practice where people would the first steps they had to take

would the first steps they had to take to put things in order were pretty

to put things in order were pretty embarrassing it's like really that's all

embarrassing it's like really that's all I can

I can do hey man uphill is better than

do hey man uphill is better than downhill and there's a Doctrine in the

downhill and there's a Doctrine in the gospels that Christ puts forward which

gospels that Christ puts forward which is very interesting he says uh it's the

is very interesting he says uh it's the Matthew principle it's called to those

Matthew principle it's called to those who have everything more will be given

who have everything more will be given from those who have nothing everything

from those who have nothing everything will be

will be taken okay so it it lays out a view of

taken okay so it it lays out a view of the world

the world progress regression that's one model

progress regression that's one model here's another one

here's another one progress

progress regression this is the right model so

regression this is the right model so even if you have to start small you

even if you have to start small you incre you ACR success in um

incre you ACR success in um exponentially you acre defeat

exponentially you acre defeat exponentially too that's the abyss that

exponentially too that's the abyss that is hell you start going downhill you go

is hell you start going downhill you go downhill faster and faster start going

downhill faster and faster start going uphill you go uphill faster and faster

uphill you go uphill faster and faster so even if you have to start small or

so even if you have to start small or even painfully small which is highly

even painfully small which is highly probable especially if you're trying to

probable especially if you're trying to tackle something that's really plagued

tackle something that's really plagued you doesn't really matter house

you doesn't really matter house small take I would say take the step

small take I would say take the step that you can take that you will take

that you can take that you will take that actually feels like some

that actually feels like some accomplishment imagine you're dealing

accomplishment imagine you're dealing with a three-year-old kid and you want

with a three-year-old kid and you want to encourage him okay you want to set

to encourage him okay you want to set him a task that he you don't want him to

him a task that he you don't want him to say Dad I could do that when I was

say Dad I could do that when I was two right but you don't want to set him

two right but you don't want to set him a task that there's not a chance he'll

a task that there's not a chance he'll manage you want to set him a task that

manage you want to set him a task that will stretch him Beyond where he is that

will stretch him Beyond where he is that has a reasonable probability of success

has a reasonable probability of success right why why stretch him from where he

right why why stretch him from where he is well because you want to grow I mean

is well because you want to grow I mean look if you love a child you love the

look if you love a child you love the child for who he is and who he could be

child for who he is and who he could be and you want

and you want to indicate your love for both of

to indicate your love for both of those I think if you're a father you

those I think if you're a father you tilt even more towards love for who the

tilt even more towards love for who the child could be what is self-belief in

child could be what is self-belief in this context because people people

this context because people people everyone's looking so many people are in

everyone's looking so many people are in search of two words I think that's three

search of two words I think that's three words but self-belief and confidence

words but self-belief and confidence idence yeah and in this context of that

idence yeah and in this context of that small task how is that building my

small task how is that building my self-belief or confidence yeah because

self-belief or confidence yeah because you watch yourself do it and that does

you watch yourself do it and that does work to well well look if you see

work to well well look if you see someone a friend who is continually

someone a friend who is continually incrementally improving you're going to

incrementally improving you're going to well maybe you'll be jealous and

well maybe you'll be jealous and resentful and bitter and miserable and

resentful and bitter and miserable and try to undermine them but assuming

try to undermine them but assuming you're not like completely encapsulated

you're not like completely encapsulated by dark Forces you'll think oh that's

by dark Forces you'll think oh that's admirable well you you see the same

admirable well you you see the same thing in yourself you have to

thing in yourself you have to act you have to develop an opinion of

act you have to develop an opinion of yourself the same way you would develop

yourself the same way you would develop an opinion of someone else so now and

an opinion of someone else so now and I'm not hypothesizing about this by the

I'm not hypothesizing about this by the way we know this clinically if I want to

way we know this clinically if I want to truly help you build your

truly help you build your confidence rather than

confidence rather than merely readjusting the words you say

merely readjusting the words you say about yourself which which would be

about yourself which which would be something like self-esteem which is

something like self-esteem which is something that doesn't even exist by the

something that doesn't even exist by the way it's just a pathological concept

way it's just a pathological concept altogether you want confidence okay more

altogether you want confidence okay more to the point you want the confidence

to the point you want the confidence that's based in competence otherwise

that's based in competence otherwise it's narcissistic okay so how do you

it's narcissistic okay so how do you develop that well you watch yourself

develop that well you watch yourself exceed your

exceed your limits and then you think oh look at

limits and then you think oh look at that there's something in me that can

that there's something in me that can exceed my limits that's your true self

exceed my limits that's your true self that's a good way of thinking about it

that's a good way of thinking about it and in doing so you actually realize

and in doing so you actually realize that limits exist and you imposed one on

that limits exist and you imposed one on yourself in the first place well you

yourself in the first place well you that's one of the things you can realize

that's one of the things you can realize certainly that that also you don't

certainly that that also you don't exactly know where the limits are it's

exactly know where the limits are it's like oh I exceeded that it's like okay

like oh I exceeded that it's like okay well now what what's the upward limit to

well now what what's the upward limit to exceed what's the upward Arc of

exceed what's the upward Arc of exceeding limits that's Jacob's lad I

exceeding limits that's Jacob's lad I would say this is the promise of the

would say this is the promise of the kingdom of God that's one way of

kingdom of God that's one way of thinking about it there's no upward

thinking about it there's no upward limit there's no limit how bad things

limit there's no limit how bad things can get no one would deny that who has

can get no one would deny that who has any

any sense so that means in a way that hell

sense so that means in a way that hell exists you can find your way there with

exists you can find your way there with no problem in terms of energy there are

no problem in terms of energy there are so many reasons why I'm a big matcha fan

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recommend and if you do it please tag me send me a message online it's

send me a message online it's interesting what's going on with young

interesting what's going on with young men in particular at the moment because

men in particular at the moment because it does appear and I don't have the

it does appear and I don't have the stats on this in front of me but it does

stats on this in front of me but it does appear that young men are more and more

appear that young men are more and more in search of some type of religion yeah

in search of some type of religion yeah definitely I think I think Islam I think

definitely I think I think Islam I think I read Islam's On The Rise amongst young

I read Islam's On The Rise amongst young men or it's the the dominant religion

men or it's the the dominant religion that young men are being drawn to but in

that young men are being drawn to but in the context of what we've described that

the context of what we've described that person who sat on the edge of their bed

person who sat on the edge of their bed do they need religion and I'm being

do they need religion and I'm being intentional not to say God I'm saying

intentional not to say God I'm saying religion well it's these are hard things

religion well it's these are hard things to do on your own right I mean you only

to do on your own right I mean you only have the span of your life and the

have the span of your life and the probability that you can figure out how

probability that you can figure out how to live merely as a consequence of

to live merely as a consequence of Consulting your own limited experience

Consulting your own limited experience is zero it's too complicated so the

is zero it's too complicated so the religion might be your societ it might

religion might be your societ it might be your friends your family in in this

be your friends your family in in this context is that's part of it that that

context is that's part of it that that would be the more structured part the

would be the more structured part the more traditional part you need the

more traditional part you need the traditional

stories that's why I wrote this book is to indicate well at least in part well

to indicate well at least in part well what the stories are and also what what

what the stories are and also what what they mean it's not only that it's not

they mean it's not only that it's not only what they mean it's how knowing

only what they mean it's how knowing what they mean changes your life so for

what they mean changes your life so for example in the story of

example in the story of Abraham God comes to AB Abraham okay

Abraham God comes to AB Abraham okay now questions emerge from that

now questions emerge from that statement what do you mean God and how

statement what do you mean God and how does he come to Abraham what the hell

does he come to Abraham what the hell does that mean well the story lays that

does that mean well the story lays that out the god that comes to Abraham is the

out the god that comes to Abraham is the voice of

voice of Adventure it's a

Adventure it's a definition this is a good thing to

definition this is a good thing to know God is the voice of

know God is the voice of Adventure okay so now think let's think

Adventure okay so now think let's think about this a little bit so the god

about this a little bit so the god that's the voice of Adventure is the god

that's the voice of Adventure is the god of the forefathers of Abraham the father

of the forefathers of Abraham the father he's a patriarchal Spirit okay if you're

he's a patriarchal Spirit okay if you're a good father you speak with the voice

a good father you speak with the voice of Adventure to your

of Adventure to your sons obviously you know you're

sons obviously you know you're encouraging them it's like get the hell

encouraging them it's like get the hell out there you know make something of

out there you know make something of yourself why do you do that because you

yourself why do you do that because you have this little kid and you think get

have this little kid and you think get at it man let's see what you can be and

at it man let's see what you can be and so that's that voice of the benevolent

so that's that voice of the benevolent father and that's the spirit of the

father and that's the spirit of the ancestors and behind that there's the

ancestors and behind that there's the god who's the voice of Adventure if you

god who's the voice of Adventure if you pursue the spirit of

pursue the spirit of Adventure there will be things you have

Adventure there will be things you have to give

to give up right you know that I mean you know

up right you know that I mean you know you you're taking steps we'd even stay

you you're taking steps we'd even stay that steps forward in your life what do

that steps forward in your life what do you mean forward what do you mean steps

you mean forward what do you mean steps well there are Little Adventures you

well there are Little Adventures you have that transform you and transform

have that transform you and transform your circumstances okay you have that

your circumstances okay you have that adventure and you have to change

adventure and you have to change as a consequence of it you have to give

as a consequence of it you have to give up your immaturity so that you can take

up your immaturity so that you can take advantage of this new

advantage of this new opportunity okay and that changes you

opportunity okay and that changes you now you're a slightly different person

now you're a slightly different person now A New Horizon of opportunity opens

now A New Horizon of opportunity opens up you have to make a sacrifice it's

up you have to make a sacrifice it's like okay looks like if I'm going to do

like okay looks like if I'm going to do this I can no longer afford this well

this I can no longer afford this well Abraham changes so dramatically that he

Abraham changes so dramatically that he gets a new name he starts as Abraham and

gets a new name he starts as Abraham and he ends is Abraham Abraham is the father

he ends is Abraham Abraham is the father of Nations so what's the moral if you

of Nations so what's the moral if you pursue the spirit of Adventure and make

pursue the spirit of Adventure and make the proper sacrifices you become the

the proper sacrifices you become the father of

father of Nations right that's

Nations right that's true there's a really interesting I I

true there's a really interesting I I grew up as religious until I was 18 I

grew up as religious until I was 18 I say religious because terms difficult to

say religious because terms difficult to Define to me but um my my mother's was

Define to me but um my my mother's was believed in God she was Christian my

believed in God she was Christian my father's Christian and at about 18 I

father's Christian and at about 18 I started reading of Richard Dawkins books

started reading of Richard Dawkins books and other people's books and I got to

and other people's books and I got to this place where I think I was atheist

this place where I think I was atheist by the definition of I didn't think

by the definition of I didn't think there was necessarily a God and now I

there was necessarily a God and now I find myself in this place of being

find myself in this place of being agnostic now when I think about the

agnostic now when I think about the Bible as a compass or as a as a guide

Bible as a compass or as a as a guide the the part of my brain that's like

the the part of my brain that's like rooted in this like I need evidence for

rooted in this like I need evidence for everything goes is this just a book that

everything goes is this just a book that a bunch of men wrote thousands of years

a bunch of men wrote thousands of years ago when they were sat around a campfire

ago when they were sat around a campfire or whatever and if if it is then it's

or whatever and if if it is then it's just one person's opinion as much as any

just one person's opinion as much as any as much much as any self-help book on a

as much much as any self-help book on a shelf is one person's opinion well okay

shelf is one person's opinion well okay let's take that claim apart I mean yes

let's take that claim apart I mean yes it is stories that people came up with

it is stories that people came up with thousands of years ago but no definitely

thousands of years ago but no definitely not one person's opinion definitely 100%

not one person's opinion definitely 100% not because these stories have been

not because these stories have been transmitted over Millennia and organized

transmitted over Millennia and organized and edited and transformed by a very

and edited and transformed by a very large number of people so it's at

large number of people so it's at minimum it's a massive Collective effort

minimum it's a massive Collective effort and it's a collective under effort

and it's a collective under effort undertak by arguably the most literate

undertak by arguably the most literate and intelligent people there are and

and intelligent people there are and that'd be the Jews why would I listen to

that'd be the Jews why would I listen to the Bible more than I'd listen to

the Bible more than I'd listen to something Socrates wrote or any

something Socrates wrote or any philosopher oh there's a huge overlap

philosopher oh there's a huge overlap between the the Greco the Greek

between the the Greco the Greek philosophical tradition and and the

philosophical tradition and and the Christian tradition I

Christian tradition I mean Western culture is the amalgamation

mean Western culture is the amalgamation of Greece Jerusalem and Rome so and the

of Greece Jerusalem and Rome so and the early Christians saw tremendous

early Christians saw tremendous parallels between Christian Theology and

parallels between Christian Theology and Greek philosophy where do you think we

Greek philosophy where do you think we we come from you know you've got the

we come from you know you've got the like Darwinism evolutionary theory of

like Darwinism evolutionary theory of we've evolved Etc then there's the more

we've evolved Etc then there's the more religious view that you know if you

religious view that you know if you really think about the the first

really think about the the first testament and um the early Testament and

testament and um the early Testament and the stories of the you know

the stories of the you know creation people think you know maybe we

creation people think you know maybe we were just popped out of nowhere but

were just popped out of nowhere but where do where do we youth believe that

where do where do we youth believe that we come from do you believe a God put us

we come from do you believe a God put us here or do you believe that do you

here or do you believe that do you believe evolution is true do you believe

believe evolution is true do you believe both are true you have to read the book

both are true you have to read the book but I want I want to I know and fair but

but I want I want to I know and fair but but I I'm not trying to be a a smart

but I I'm not trying to be a a smart alic in in that response it's a

alic in in that response it's a complicated answer yeah right it's a

complicated answer yeah right it's a complicated answer I think that we're

complicated answer I think that we're Guided by the spirit of

Guided by the spirit of meaning okay I think that's also our

meaning okay I think that's also our deepest Instinct that's somewhat D wiium

deepest Instinct that's somewhat D wiium well I had a rule for this book is I

well I had a rule for this book is I didn't make any claims about the

didn't make any claims about the biblical stories that I couldn't justify

biblical stories that I couldn't justify scientifically I don't think there's a

scientifically I don't think there's a conflict I I think that viewing the

conflict I I think that viewing the biblical stories as an amalgam of

biblical stories as an amalgam of superstitious protos scientific theories

superstitious protos scientific theories is absurd I don't think there's any

is absurd I don't think there's any evidence for that at all these are

evidence for that at all these are stories So Stories and scientific

stories So Stories and scientific hypotheses aren't the same thing the

hypotheses aren't the same thing the Lord of the Rings is not a scientific

Lord of the Rings is not a scientific hypothesis but that doesn't mean it's

hypothesis but that doesn't mean it's not true do you believe my great great

not true do you believe my great great great great Granddad was a an

great great Granddad was a an amoeba well if you go you were a sperm

amoeba well if you go you were a sperm at one point I mean it's not that

at one point I mean it's not that implausible we all come from single

implausible we all come from single celled organisms this is I'm asking

celled organisms this is I'm asking these questions because I'm genuinely

these questions because I'm genuinely it's like I'm genuinely wrestling with a

it's like I'm genuinely wrestling with a bunch of big existential questions that

bunch of big existential questions that I've actually only been wrestling with

I've actually only been wrestling with maybe for like I'd say a year yeah so

maybe for like I'd say a year yeah so it's very fresh for me and it's funny my

it's very fresh for me and it's funny my arc here is religious Christian up until

arc here is religious Christian up until maybe 18 yeah like staunch atheist for

maybe 18 yeah like staunch atheist for two years to the point that it was like

two years to the point that it was like my identity yeah and then like yeah let

my identity yeah and then like yeah let go of that drifted for a couple of years

go of that drifted for a couple of years and find myself it's really interesting

and find myself it's really interesting point where I'm like back at the door of

point where I'm like back at the door of like okay let's re look at some of these

like okay let's re look at some of these answers again yeah well that's exactly

answers again yeah well that's exactly why I wrote this book because I know

why I wrote this book because I know that that's the time and it's not just

that that's the time and it's not just the time for you that's the time that

the time for you that's the time that we're in yeah it's the time we're in

we're in yeah it's the time we're in 100% oh definitely definitely well it's

100% oh definitely definitely well it's partly

partly because the enlightenment has exhausted

because the enlightenment has exhausted itself partly because it was wrong it's

itself partly because it was wrong it's failed us the individual I think

failed us the individual I think exhausted is a better word because it

exhausted is a better word because it wasn't like the enlightenment was

wasn't like the enlightenment was without its

without its benefits technological progress the the

benefits technological progress the the hypothet the materialist reductionism

hypothet the materialist reductionism of the atheist scientist okay it's not

of the atheist scientist okay it's not right factually they were wrong their

right factually they were wrong their theory of perception was wrong they're

theory of perception was wrong they're wrong we see the world through a story

wrong we see the world through a story we do not see the world as a collection

we do not see the world as a collection of facts they're wrong you see the

of facts they're wrong you see the postmodernists figured this out and

postmodernists figured this out and that's why the postmodernist had a

that's why the postmodernist had a walloping influence on culture now I'm

walloping influence on culture now I'm no fan of the postmodernist for a

no fan of the postmodernist for a variety of reasons but their insistence

variety of reasons but their insistence that we see the world through a story

that we see the world through a story that they're right that's right I agree

that they're right that's right I agree I mean if you if you obviously read the

I mean if you if you obviously read the book sapiens um by novel Harari and his

book sapiens um by novel Harari and his central point is that what bound us as

central point is that what bound us as humans and stop us being these scattered

humans and stop us being these scattered chimps with stories they bind us

chimps with stories they bind us together so I completely understand that

together so I completely understand that we need a story it's how everything

we need a story it's how everything money governments Etc function but what

money governments Etc function but what that story is now I can I can agree that

that story is now I can I can agree that a story of voluntary

a story of voluntary sacrifice 100% agree that humans need

sacrifice 100% agree that humans need that there's no chance that we'd be here

that there's no chance that we'd be here otherwise and it's a set of values and

otherwise and it's a set of values and principles now those values and

principles now those values and principles are often found in religion

principles are often found in religion but do they and and a belief in a God

but do they and and a belief in a God but do they have to be could they be

but do they have to be could they be found in could I theoretically make a

found in could I theoretically make a new religion where me and my friends

new religion where me and my friends all unite against a set of values

all unite against a set of values sacrifice give that's a great question

sacrifice give that's a great question well this is what n basically

well this is what n basically presupposed in some ways so when when n

presupposed in some ways so when when n observed that God had died say in 1850

observed that God had died say in 1850 or

or thereabouts his medication for that his

thereabouts his medication for that his warning was we'll descend into nihilism

warning was we'll descend into nihilism and communist

totalitarianism and that was exactly right maybe a Mindless Hedonism in there

right maybe a Mindless Hedonism in there too dovi concentrated more on that nche

too dovi concentrated more on that nche said we'll have to create our own values

said we'll have to create our own values we'll have to become that's what the

we'll have to become that's what the Superman is the nian Superman the man

Superman is the nian Superman the man who creates his own values mhm

who creates his own values mhm try see what happens you can't do it you

try see what happens you can't do it you can't create your own values because

can't create your own values because values are

values are real they're not arbitrary they're not

real they're not arbitrary they're not relativistic so imagine this imagine

relativistic so imagine this imagine there's a very large number of games

there's a very large number of games that could be played like an infinitely

that could be played like an infinitely large number but there's a very small

large number but there's a very small number of games that people want to play

number of games that people want to play then there's even a smaller number of

then there's even a smaller number of games that sustain themselves and

games that sustain themselves and improve as you play them okay so that's

improve as you play them okay so that's like a landscape you could think about

like a landscape you could think about it as a landscape of potential patterns

it as a landscape of potential patterns of interaction you could even think

of interaction you could even think about it as a landscape of potential

about it as a landscape of potential tribal

tribal affiliations right the rules of those

affiliations right the rules of those games would be the principles of the

games would be the principles of the society okay now the question your

society okay now the question your question is could we come up with our

question is could we come up with our own set of rules and the answer to that

own set of rules and the answer to that is no why

is no why because the sustainable abundant

because the sustainable abundant playability of a game

playability of a game is not arbitrary so for example if you

is not arbitrary so for example if you want to get along with your

want to get along with your wife she has to want to play the game

wife she has to want to play the game you're playing mhm okay now there's lots

you're playing mhm okay now there's lots of games you could play that aren't

of games you could play that aren't going to fit that criteria yeah now then

going to fit that criteria yeah now then imagine it's even worse though because

imagine it's even worse though because to get along with your wife you she has

to get along with your wife you she has to want to play the game you want to

to want to play the game you want to play but both of you have to play a game

play but both of you have to play a game that works today and tomorrow and next

that works today and tomorrow and next week next month next year right and then

week next month next year right and then you have to play it with your kids and

you have to play it with your kids and your parents and a bunch of other people

your parents and a bunch of other people so can I ask then so is it the case that

so can I ask then so is it the case that humans are designed in such a way where

humans are designed in such a way where there's a certain set of values and

there's a certain set of values and stories that are most conducive with

stories that are most conducive with their reproductive survival and so if

their reproductive survival and so if that's true and I completely agree

that's true and I completely agree understand why that would be true

understand why that would be true because this true true for all species

because this true true for all species like there's a set of stories and

like there's a set of stories and narratives probably in my dog if you go

narratives probably in my dog if you go back to a 100 years from when his

back to a 100 years from when his ancestors were in the wild that he

ancestors were in the wild that he needed to subscribe to to reproduce to

needed to subscribe to to reproduce to be a dog and to survive as a dog but so

be a dog and to survive as a dog but so the question then becomes where do those

the question then becomes where do those values come from are they innate within

values come from are they innate within us because of our environmental factors

us because of our environmental factors so I need to be this way because of the

so I need to be this way because of the environment I live in so that I can have

environment I live in so that I can have sex with somebody and reproduce because

sex with somebody and reproduce because of I have two arms two legs Etc I'm this

of I have two arms two legs Etc I'm this Advanced chimp or do they come from

Advanced chimp or do they come from above somewhere and they're granted down

above somewhere and they're granted down to me because if I look at every animal

to me because if I look at every animal not or and oh and okay yeah yeah it's

not or and oh and okay yeah yeah it's the same thing it it's you're looking at

the same thing it it's you're looking at the same problem from two different

the same problem from two different perspectives it's and yes they're handed

perspectives it's and yes they're handed down from on high yes their instincts so

down from on high yes their instincts so who they handed down

from well the the the religious do you struggle with this question well it's a

struggle with this question well it's a complicated question question but you

complicated question question but you struggle with the

struggle with the answer I I struggle with making the

answer I I struggle with making the answer simple enough to offer rapidly

answer simple enough to offer rapidly are you clear yourself on

are you clear yourself on it not as clear as I could be what is it

it not as clear as I could be what is it you wrestle

with I've said well Clarity is part of it I mean we we want to make things as

it I mean we we want to make things as clear as possible breadth of Co coverage

clear as possible breadth of Co coverage right I mean I'm people ask me what I

right I mean I'm people ask me what I believe and say well I'm not hiding what

believe and say well I'm not hiding what I believe I'm like I lecture about it I

I believe I'm like I lecture about it I podcast about it I write about it it's

podcast about it I write about it it's like that's what I believe there it is

like that's what I believe there it is is there obfuscation in that well some

is there obfuscation in that well some partly things are complicated so it's

partly things are complicated so it's it's very difficult to give short

it's very difficult to give short answers to complex questions they you

answers to complex questions they you tend to give if you give short answers

tend to give if you give short answers to complex questions the answers tend to

to complex questions the answers tend to be symbolic yeah you have to say

be symbolic yeah you have to say something like where do they come from

something like where do they come from it's like well they come from

it's like well they come from God now is that a useful answer well

God now is that a useful answer well it's a short answer so it's useful in

it's a short answer so it's useful in that it's short it begs the question

that it's short it begs the question what do you mean by God we could return

what do you mean by God we could return to that in the story of Abraham these

to that in the story of Abraham these are

are definitions because if you're going to

definitions because if you're going to talk about what's properly put in the

talk about what's properly put in the highest place you have to know what

highest place you have to know what you're talking about okay in the story

you're talking about okay in the story of Abraham the voice of Adventure is to

of Abraham the voice of Adventure is to be put in the highest place and if you

be put in the highest place and if you follow that then you become the father

follow that then you become the father of Nations that's reproductive success

of Nations that's reproductive success UC mhm right so that means the idea is

UC mhm right so that means the idea is that there's an alignment between the

that there's an alignment between the Instinct that calls you to Adventure and

Instinct that calls you to Adventure and the probability that you'll be

the probability that you'll be attractive to women in the manner that

attractive to women in the manner that ensures the survival of your descendants

ensures the survival of your descendants and is that environmental it's both is

and is that environmental it's both is it's both it's both it's emerges as a

it's both it's both it's emerges as a consequence of the constraints of social

consequence of the constraints of social interaction let's say like there's

interaction let's say like there's constraints for example on what makes a

constraints for example on what makes a man desirable to a woman yeah right that

man desirable to a woman yeah right that has nothing to do with you those

has nothing to do with you those constraints those are there right

constraints those are there right they're there in

they're there in the Society of women they're Eternal

the Society of women they're Eternal they're not no woman she might vary in

they're not no woman she might vary in her opinion to some degree but she

her opinion to some degree but she partakes of the pattern so it's there

partakes of the pattern so it's there now it's also built into you because

now it's also built into you because you're a social creature and so your

you're a social creature and so your physiology

physiology indicates to you the nature of that

indicates to you the nature of that pattern so does my dog have a different

pattern so does my dog have a different religion to me does he have a different

religion to me does he have a different God to some

God to some degree it's it's there's an overlap

degree it's it's there's an overlap because you can communic the dog your

because you can communic the dog your dog understands you and vice versa so

dog understands you and vice versa so there's there's that's a good

there's there's that's a good question social mammals understand each

question social mammals understand each other right so there's an overlap in

other right so there's an overlap in their deepest instincts or their highest

their deepest instincts or their highest impulses you can think about that both

impulses you can think about that both ways I was I was going through my head

ways I was I was going through my head and thinking about like the Venus fly

and thinking about like the Venus fly trap and my my do my French Bulldog

trap and my my do my French Bulldog Pablo and they all need a different set

Pablo and they all need a different set of behaviors and principles and values

of behaviors and principles and values to Survive and Thrive and be happy well

to Survive and Thrive and be happy well you you could think about that as sure

you you could think about that as sure sure I was thinking then does that mean

sure I was thinking then does that mean that they all have a

that they all have a different yeah they have a different

different yeah they have a different intrinsic nature that's another way of

intrinsic nature that's another way of thinking about it yeah because of the

thinking about it yeah because of the environment and the factors that they

environment and the factors that they face as that species so then Pablo's God

face as that species so then Pablo's God might be slightly different to my God if

might be slightly different to my God if we're talking about cuz I'm trying to

we're talking about cuz I'm trying to understand if like this idea of God is a

understand if like this idea of God is a set of evolutionary

set of evolutionary motivations yes that it is and it is

motivations yes that it is and it is that you can think about it as rising up

that you can think about it as rising up from the material world or descending

from the material world or descending from on Heaven it doesn't matter it

from on Heaven it doesn't matter it doesn't matter fundamentally it's the

doesn't matter fundamentally it's the same it doesn't matter there those are

same it doesn't matter there those are different ways of looking at the same

different ways of looking at the same problem when I say evolutionary

problem when I say evolutionary motivations it doesn't feel so Divine it

motivations it doesn't feel so Divine it doesn't feel like a place a reason to

doesn't feel like a place a reason to gather in a church it feels like like

gather in a church it feels like like I'm just kind of a a robot that's being

I'm just kind of a a robot that's being steered by these motivations of don't do

steered by these motivations of don't do that do this this feels good if you're

that do this this feels good if you're with your friends and family you feel

with your friends and family you feel good so do that more and if you're with

good so do that more and if you're with your friends and family you're safer so

your friends and family you're safer so you're more likely to have kids or is it

you're more likely to have kids or is it this sort of divine thing that we we

this sort of divine thing that we we Society have told us God is where we

Society have told us God is where we should worship and we should thank you

should worship and we should thank you so much and go to a church and get on

so much and go to a church and get on our knees and pray because if there have

our knees and pray because if there have two very different things one is like

two very different things one is like practical and pragmatic and the other

practical and pragmatic and the other one is this divine

okay here's one way of thinking about it so I mentioned that in the story of

so I mentioned that in the story of Abraham God is the Call to Adventure

Abraham God is the Call to Adventure okay so that's a definition now the the

okay so that's a definition now the the the Divine that's put forward in these

the Divine that's put forward in these library of stories has multiple

library of stories has multiple characteristics he's characterized in

characteristics he's characterized in many ways but there's an insistence that

many ways but there's an insistence that that reflects an underlying Unity now

that reflects an underlying Unity now the unity is incomprehensible in its

the unity is incomprehensible in its essence

essence okay so you have to accept that as the

okay so you have to accept that as the initial starting point you're you're not

initial starting point you're you're not going to get the answer yeah okay you

going to get the answer yeah okay you can you can see something complex from a

can you can see something complex from a variety of different perspectives okay

variety of different perspectives okay in the story of Noah God is the impulse

in the story of Noah God is the impulse that comes to the wise to

that comes to the wise to prepare when trouble's Brewing yeah okay

prepare when trouble's Brewing yeah okay now now okay so now you can think of

now now okay so now you can think of that as an instinct you can think about

that as an instinct you can think about it as got Instinct intuition negative

it as got Instinct intuition negative emot

emot anxiety but but it's more than that

anxiety but but it's more than that because it's you can be afraid of

because it's you can be afraid of something that isn't real yeah okay now

something that isn't real yeah okay now you might have to ask yourself okay what

you might have to ask yourself okay what are the preconditions for your fear what

are the preconditions for your fear what are the

are the preconditions to the validity of your

preconditions to the validity of your fear so you're afraid and you should be

fear so you're afraid and you should be well let's say that's a characteristic

well let's say that's a characteristic of someone who's

of someone who's wise okay so then the question is well

wise okay so then the question is well what's the essence of the wisdom that

what's the essence of the wisdom that makes your fear valid

makes your fear valid Noah is described in the story of Noah

Noah is described in the story of Noah as a man wise in his

as a man wise in his Generations so that means that by the

Generations so that means that by the moral standards of his time he's an

moral standards of his time he's an upstanding human being okay so now you

upstanding human being okay so now you can imagine that means he exists in

can imagine that means he exists in harmonious relationship with his present

harmonious relationship with his present self and his future self okay that makes

self and his future self okay that makes him mature but then he also does that in

him mature but then he also does that in a way that serves his wife and his

a way that serves his wife and his family and his community MH so his self

family and his community MH so his self is is balanced and optimized across

is is balanced and optimized across those parameters that makes

those parameters that makes him secure in his foundation and

him secure in his foundation and properly oriented if you're secure in

properly oriented if you're secure in your foundation and properly oriented

your foundation and properly oriented upward then there's no difference

upward then there's no difference between the voice of the Divine and the

between the voice of the Divine and the Instinct for the Instinct that preserves

Instinct for the Instinct that preserves you in times of trouble but you see you

you in times of trouble but you see you can't exactly get there by the mere

can't exactly get there by the mere bottomup materialistic notion because

bottomup materialistic notion because you could think of about the fear that

you could think of about the fear that guides Noah as an instinct but the

guides Noah as an instinct but the instinct is pathological unless it

instinct is pathological unless it exists in this wider moral

exists in this wider moral framework because then you could have

framework because then you could have the fear of a coward well that's not

the fear of a coward well that's not helpful The Wider moral framework could

helpful The Wider moral framework could that wider moral framework just

that wider moral framework just be I'm in My DNA I'm hardwired to want

be I'm in My DNA I'm hardwired to want to

to reproduce because yeah but rep even

reproduce because yeah but rep even reproduction isn't see this is I think

reproduction isn't see this is I think where Dawkins went dreadfully wrong sex

where Dawkins went dreadfully wrong sex and reproduction aren't the same thing

and reproduction aren't the same thing for people not anymore certainly well

for people not anymore certainly well not at all because we're High investment

not at all because we're High investment reproducers sex just gets the ball

reproducers sex just gets the ball rolling so so here's a question how

rolling so so here's a question how would you have to act to maximally

would you have to act to maximally ensure the survival of your Offspring

ensure the survival of your Offspring okay so

okay so now what do you mean survival do you

now what do you mean survival do you mean that your son lives do you mean

mean that your son lives do you mean that your grandson lives do you mean

that your grandson lives do you mean that 20 Generations down the road from

that 20 Generations down the road from you the pattern that you represented is

you the pattern that you represented is still propagating itself successfully

still propagating itself successfully does it mean that the people that you

does it mean that the people that you produce are able to take on all

produce are able to take on all Challengers because of the manner in

Challengers because of the manner in which they conduct themselves that's a

which they conduct themselves that's a lot more complicated than just sex like

lot more complicated than just sex like way more complicated so the pattern that

way more complicated so the pattern that Abraham so Abraham is the father of

Abraham so Abraham is the father of Nations

Nations right the

right the there's an insistence in the story that

there's an insistence in the story that the manner in which he conducts

the manner in which he conducts himself as a hero establishes the

himself as a hero establishes the pattern that makes his

pattern that makes his descendants successful

descendants successful eternally I I just can't figure out

eternally I I just can't figure out whether this is um whether like what

whether this is um whether like what what order things happened in in terms

what order things happened in in terms of is the Bible just a consequence of

of is the Bible just a consequence of people trying to figure out our

people trying to figure out our evolutionary motivations and turn them

evolutionary motivations and turn them into these stories that guide us why

into these stories that guide us why just okay we can remove the word just

just okay we can remove the word just well but that's an important removal

well but that's an important removal it's an important removal because it's

it's an important removal because it's you know because it's it has bound is

you know because it's it has bound is the Bible in part the story of human

the Bible in part the story of human beings coming to Consciousness yes yeah

beings coming to Consciousness yes yeah yes okay yeah does it reflect a deeper

yes okay yeah does it reflect a deeper underlying reality yes yeah how deep is

underlying reality yes yeah how deep is that underlying well let's say okay it's

that underlying well let's say okay it's a story about the

a story about the psyche and then that say well no it's a

psyche and then that say well no it's a story about the psyche in Society okay

story about the psyche in Society okay so well no it's a story about the psyche

so well no it's a story about the psyche in society in the natural world mhm okay

in society in the natural world mhm okay well what's underneath that the source

well what's underneath that the source of nature society and the psyche this is

of nature society and the psyche this is an an interesting question it's very

an an interesting question it's very direct one but I would love just an

direct one but I would love just an answer that I because I haven't got

answer that I because I haven't got Clarity on this what is it you believe

Clarity on this what is it you believe what what God is it that you believe in

what what God is it that you believe in I've I heard you talk about this sort of

I've I heard you talk about this sort of substrate idea and such but in a simple

substrate idea and such but in a simple way that I can understand do you believe

way that I can understand do you believe in man in the sky God do you believe in

in man in the sky God do you believe in it's a well that's not as that's not as

it's a well that's not as that's not as primitive a conceptualization as the

primitive a conceptualization as the atheists would have you believe what is

atheists would have you believe what is it you believe well there isn't anything

it you believe well there isn't anything more complex in the known universe than

more complex in the known universe than a human brain MH so if you want a model

a human brain MH so if you want a model for reality as such like proclaiming

for reality as such like proclaiming that it has something akin to the

that it has something akin to the structure of the human psyche is not an

structure of the human psyche is not an absurd claim given that that is the most

absurd claim given that that is the most complex Thing by far that we know of by

complex Thing by far that we know of by far so what is it you

far so what is it you believe well I've been explaining it but

believe well I've been explaining it but I mean I I did say I mentioned something

I mean I I did say I mentioned something which we skipped over very quickly

which we skipped over very quickly because I introduced it too

because I introduced it too rapidly the postmodernists figured out

rapidly the postmodernists figured out that we live in a story but then they Le

that we live in a story but then they Le to a faulty conclusion of two forms well

to a faulty conclusion of two forms well three there's no uniting story that was

three there's no uniting story that was one of their conclusions in fact the

one of their conclusions in fact the definition of postmodernism is

definition of postmodernism is skepticism of meta narratives there's no

skepticism of meta narratives there's no uniting story it's like well that's a

uniting story it's like well that's a stupid Theory because it there's no

stupid Theory because it there's no Union so what there's just diversity

Union so what there's just diversity well we worship diversity now in this

well we worship diversity now in this utterly foolish manner there's no

utterly foolish manner there's no difference between diversity and

difference between diversity and War without a uniting narrative there's

War without a uniting narrative there's nothing but War so no that's not going

nothing but War so no that's not going to work wrong

to work wrong hedonistic self-gratification there's

hedonistic self-gratification there's Michelle Fuko for you to a T it's like

Michelle Fuko for you to a T it's like why is that wrong why can't people just

why is that wrong why can't people just do what they want with whoever they want

do what they want with whoever they want all the time because it defeats itself

all the time because it defeats itself and quickly it's not a sustainable game

and quickly it's not a sustainable game if it's all about you and your whims I

if it's all about you and your whims I don't want to be anywhere near you and

don't want to be anywhere near you and that won't be so good for you that's not

that won't be so good for you that's not going to work

going to work power that's really where the

power that's really where the postmodernists landed with their what

postmodernists landed with their what would you say temptation to turn towards

would you say temptation to turn towards marks it's all about power it's like

marks it's all about power it's like first of all that's probably a

first of all that's probably a confession if that's what you believe

confession if that's what you believe and second no it's not try tyrannizing

and second no it's not try tyrannizing your wife and see how well that works

your wife and see how well that works for you try tyrannizing yourself and see

for you try tyrannizing yourself and see how successful you are power is not the

how successful you are power is not the game okay what's the game what's the

game okay what's the game what's the story I mentioned earlier it's voluntary

self-sacrifice right you offer yourself up in the service of something higher

up in the service of something higher That's the basis of society That's the

That's the basis of society That's the basis of psychological stability the

basis of psychological stability the Christian insistence is that That's the

Christian insistence is that That's the basis of the world I'm gonna ask you

basis of the world I'm gonna ask you again because I I want to be I want to

again because I I want to be I want to be clear is what what is what is it you

be clear is what what is what is it you what is the god you believe in I think

what is the god you believe in I think that the claim that Christ is the

that the claim that Christ is the embodiment of the prophet and the laws I

embodiment of the prophet and the laws I think that's true okay

think that's true okay yeah that that's complicated it's very

yeah that that's complicated it's very very complicated but I think it's true

very complicated but I think it's true so you believe that Jesus was God God

yeah I I think I think if you understand what that means that it's

what that means that it's indisputable I I'll give you I'll give

indisputable I I'll give you I'll give you a brief explanation of why

Christ takes the sins of the world onto himself so that means all the problems

himself so that means all the problems that there are are his

that there are are his problems right okay

so the the idea there is that there's no difference between making that

difference between making that assumption and then actually beginning

assumption and then actually beginning to address those problems and there's no

to address those problems and there's no difference between that which best

difference between that which best addresses the problems of

addresses the problems of mankind that and the Divine those are

mankind that and the Divine those are the same thing and I can't see how that

the same thing and I can't see how that can be otherwise because the contrary

can be otherwise because the contrary hypothesis would be that you would adapt

hypothesis would be that you would adapt best to your life by avoiding things

best to your life by avoiding things that are difficult and terrifying and No

that are difficult and terrifying and No One Believes that and so the pattern of

One Believes that and so the pattern of the passion this is the voluntary

the passion this is the voluntary self-sacrifice issue taken to its

self-sacrifice issue taken to its extreme the pattern of the passion is

extreme the pattern of the passion is the decision to voluntarily confront and

the decision to voluntarily confront and welcome anything that happens to

welcome anything that happens to you no matter what it is

you no matter what it is and that's a terrible thing to ask or

and that's a terrible thing to ask or Endeavor

Endeavor to undertake

to undertake but well the alternative is to shrink

but well the alternative is to shrink away well the spirit of shrinking away

away well the spirit of shrinking away is the Divine it's like I don't think so

is the Divine it's like I don't think so that that's

that that's preposterous the spirit of unlimited

preposterous the spirit of unlimited courage well that's not a bad start for

courage well that's not a bad start for a definition of what constitutes the

a definition of what constitutes the Divine the highest possible

Divine the highest possible value has your belief in God religion

value has your belief in God religion been shaken at all oh

been shaken at all oh yes

yes definitely because you've been

definitely because you've been constantly over the last year and a half

constantly over the last year and a half two years you've been through a

two years you've been through a particularly difficult time with losing

particularly difficult time with losing people in your life that are um were

people in your life that are um were foundational to you Tammy as well oh

foundational to you Tammy as well oh yeah well and I was in extreme pain for

yeah well and I was in extreme pain for three

three years right I went through three years

years right I went through three years where every minute of my life was worse

where every minute of my life was worse than any minute I had ever had previous

than any minute I had ever had previous to that it was

to that it was terrible and did I lose

faith was it questioned challenged absolutely

absolutely absolutely um it it just became

absolutely um it it just became absurd it was absurd so many things had

absurd it was absurd so many things had gone off the rails in my wife was dying

gone off the rails in my wife was dying my daughter was ill I

my daughter was ill I was things had blown up around me in 50

was things had blown up around me in 50 different ways and I was like seriously

different ways and I was like seriously in pain was terrible I was walking like

in pain was terrible I was walking like 12 miles a day because I couldn't sit I

12 miles a day because I couldn't sit I did that for

did that for months winter rain whenever I had a

months winter rain whenever I had a friend who walked with me was terrible

friend who walked with me was terrible and yeah I mean I thought what was the

and yeah I mean I thought what was the desperation it wasn't even the pain it

desperation it wasn't even the pain it was the fact that I was in such terrible

was the fact that I was in such terrible shape that I felt that I was a felt I

shape that I felt that I was a felt I believed that I was a burden to everyone

believed that I was a burden to everyone around me and that that was only likely

around me and that that was only likely to get get

to get get worse and I thought what's the sense in

worse and I thought what's the sense in this what's the possible significance of

this what's the possible significance of this so yes everyone's faith is

this so yes everyone's faith is challenged I mean Christ

challenged I mean Christ himself cries in despair out to God on

himself cries in despair out to God on the cross and the story wouldn't be

the cross and the story wouldn't be believable without

believable without that like if you're going to live you're

that like if you're going to live you're going to be pushed past your

going to be pushed past your limit right if you're going to

limit right if you're going to live so

live so so but who knows what you discover when

so but who knows what you discover when you're pushed past your limit in that

you're pushed past your limit in that moment you know I've been in my

moment you know I've been in my relationship for some time now and I

relationship for some time now and I genuinely think I'd

genuinely think I'd rather I'd rather die myself than my

rather I'd rather die myself than my partner die

partner die uhuh and you were there as Tammy was

uhuh and you were there as Tammy was struggling with her health yeah which is

struggling with her health yeah which is not something I've heard you actually

not something I've heard you actually talk about before in what I've observed

talk about before in what I've observed she was she was dying

is that harder to take for you than your own pain and struggle I think generally

own pain and struggle I think generally if you love someone it's worse to see

if you love someone it's worse to see them suffer than to suffer yourself you

them suffer than to suffer yourself you certainly figure that out when you have

certainly figure that out when you have kids and this all happens at the same

kids and this all happens at the same moment the same couple of years of your

moment the same couple of years of your life is there anything to you know

life is there anything to you know people always search for Silver Linings

people always search for Silver Linings and

and things is there anything we're both

things is there anything we're both alive my family is thriving the my

alive my family is thriving the my adventure is

adventure is expanding life isn't fair is it doesn't

expanding life isn't fair is it doesn't appear to be very fair because I mean

appear to be very fair because I mean this is how your story ended it in that

this is how your story ended it in that regard but it could I don't know if an

regard but it could I don't know if an adventure is

adventure is fair I don't even know if that's what we

fair I don't even know if that's what we want like this is something I really

want like this is something I really came to understand more deeply when

came to understand more deeply when writing this book what are we built

writing this book what are we built for we're built for maximal

for we're built for maximal Challenge and that isn't the way we view

Challenge and that isn't the way we view ourselves in the modern world we we view

ourselves in the modern world we we view ourselves as built for pleasure you know

ourselves as built for pleasure you know pornography we we view ourselves as

pornography we we view ourselves as built for

built for consumption or for safety or

consumption or for safety or for or for for maybe for egotistical

for or for for maybe for egotistical self-aggrandisement and

self-aggrandisement and fame those

fame those are look many all of those things are

are look many all of those things are better than their absence let's say you

better than their absence let's say you know I think part of the reason that

know I think part of the reason that Andrew Tate is so popular among young

Andrew Tate is so popular among young men because it it's better to be a

men because it it's better to be a successful reprobate than a useless

scer seriously I mean seriously well that's why the villain in stories is

that's why the villain in stories is often admirable compared to the coward

often admirable compared to the coward right at least the villain is out there

right at least the villain is out there like doing villain things you know but

like doing villain things you know but at least he has meaning well and he he's

at least he has meaning well and he he's not he's not the villain at least the

not he's not the villain at least the villain villain has meaning the the

villain villain has meaning the the villain's on a quest of sorts you know a

villain's on a quest of sorts you know a committed and a committed villain can

committed and a committed villain can learn that's another thing

too what are we built for I think we're built for maximal

for I think we're built for maximal Challenge and that's that's way more

Challenge and that's that's way more interesting I mean one of the things

interesting I mean one of the things that see I figured out that

that see I figured out that lies that totalitarian states were a

lies that totalitarian states were a consequence of lies in about 1985

consequence of lies in about 1985 I I really figured it out I'd been

I I really figured it out I'd been reading Sol nits and and Carl Yung i'

reading Sol nits and and Carl Yung i' been reading I was reading a lot I was

been reading I was reading a lot I was really obsessed by it I thought oh I see

really obsessed by it I thought oh I see so hell is the Dominion of the

so hell is the Dominion of the LIE okay so what do you do about that

LIE okay so what do you do about that while you stop

while you stop lying that's how you fight it and that

lying that's how you fight it and that means you do that in your own life you

means you do that in your own life you just stop just you practice stopping you

just stop just you practice stopping you practice not doing the things you know

practice not doing the things you know you shouldn't do you practice

you shouldn't do you practice paying attention to your words to see if

paying attention to your words to see if they're landing solidly and they make

they're landing solidly and they make you confident instead of weak right you

you confident instead of weak right you abandon

abandon your

your shortterm desire for control and power

shortterm desire for control and power understanding that there isn't anything

understanding that there isn't anything better that can happen to you than what

better that can happen to you than what happens if you tell the truth right no

happens if you tell the truth right no matter what it looks like to you in the

matter what it looks like to you in the moment it's a strange thing but I can't

moment it's a strange thing but I can't see how it could be otherwise because

see how it could be otherwise because you'd have to hypothesize that you're

you'd have to hypothesize that you're going to align yourself with life with

going to align yourself with life with nature with Society with god with

nature with Society with god with yourself by lying No One Believes that

yourself by lying No One Believes that you might think you can get away with it

you might think you can get away with it that's way different right but no one

that's way different right but no one believes that

so well so then what happens in consequence of that well I think what

consequence of that well I think what happens in consequence of that is what

happens in consequence of that is what happened to

happened to Abraham your life just goes like

Abraham your life just goes like this just opens and opens and opens and

this just opens and opens and opens and opens and I don't think there's any

opens and I don't think there's any limit to

limit to that and that's

that and that's ridiculously

ridiculously entertaining like unbearably

entertaining like unbearably entertaining there's what you want in

entertaining there's what you want in your life you want it to be unbearably

your life you want it to be unbearably entertaining and it's funny you know

entertaining and it's funny you know when you watch people go to movies I

when you watch people go to movies I mean James

mean James Bond right that's an unbearably

Bond right that's an unbearably entertaining life and that's what people

entertaining life and that's what people want to see when they go to a theater

want to see when they go to a theater because that's what they want that's

because that's what they want that's what they

what they want and maybe all the sorrow and

want and maybe all the sorrow and catastrophe that's part of that has to

catastrophe that's part of that has to be part of it because otherwise

because life is very wide you know

wide you know there's the the Peaks and bellies

there's the the Peaks and bellies are very distant from one

are very distant from one another and I I don't know maybe as you

another and I I don't know maybe as you ascend uphill

ascend uphill your understanding of

your understanding of the chasm between the Peaks and valys

the chasm between the Peaks and valys also

also increases you know cuz you think maybe

increases you know cuz you think maybe as you're successful you're happier well

as you're successful you're happier well first of all I'm not sure that success

first of all I'm not sure that success and happiness are the same thing I'm not

and happiness are the same thing I'm not sure that we want them to be the same

sure that we want them to be the same thing I don't even know what people mean

thing I don't even know what people mean when they say they want to be happy if

when they say they want to be happy if you investigate it technically you find

you investigate it technically you find out that really what people mean when

out that really what people mean when they say they want to be happy is that

they say they want to be happy is that they don't want to

they don't want to suffer that's different than the

suffer that's different than the enthusiastic joy that you might think

enthusiastic joy that you might think about you know that's part and parsel of

about you know that's part and parsel of a child's laughter you want to be happy

a child's laughter you want to be happy what do you want to be laugh laughing

what do you want to be laugh laughing all the time is that what you're saying

all the time is that what you're saying well no that's not what I mean well what

well no that's not what I mean well what do you mean do you mean the

do you mean do you mean the gratification that comes along with the

gratification that comes along with the cookie at 1: in the morning no that's

cookie at 1: in the morning no that's not what I mean well okay what do you

not what I mean well okay what do you mean well I don't know it's like yeah

mean well I don't know it's like yeah you don't know partly what you mean is

you don't know partly what you mean is you don't want pointless suffering fair

you don't want pointless suffering fair enough you know fair fair enough but

enough you know fair fair enough but that doesn't mean it's happiness that's

that doesn't mean it's happiness that's your goal there's no I don't think

your goal there's no I don't think that's your goal I don't think your

that's your goal I don't think your podcast would be successful if that was

podcast would be successful if that was your goal I think you would have washed

your goal I think you would have washed up on the shs of triviality long ago I

up on the shs of triviality long ago I do well there's something you're doing

do well there's something you're doing that's working there's something about

that's working there's something about the way you're approaching the situation

the way you're approaching the situation that's of broad appeal there's some

that's of broad appeal there's some archetypal pattern that's you're acting

archetypal pattern that's you're acting out in your conduct in your podcast

out in your conduct in your podcast because otherwise it wouldn't have the

because otherwise it wouldn't have the effect it

has it's true I I I agree I don't know what it is but I but well you know some

what it is but I but well you know some of it we talked about some of it you

of it we talked about some of it you know you said that you you can you

know you said that you you can you can you can apprehend the outline of

can you can apprehend the outline of some of the principles some of that you

some of the principles some of that you probably discovered as you went along

probably discovered as you went along rather than you know putting them in

rather than you know putting them in place to begin with this seems to work

place to begin with this seems to work yeah you know so that's a discovery of

yeah you know so that's a discovery of of a pathway well as a podcaster as well

of a pathway well as a podcaster as well I don't think you really truly

I don't think you really truly understand your principles until they're

understand your principles until they're tested so and especially when they're

tested so and especially when they're tested from both sides so th you know

tested from both sides so th you know this side's telling you to be more like

this side's telling you to be more like this and this side's screaming at you to

this and this side's screaming at you to be more like this and you you're faced

be more like this and you you're faced with a decision when you're you know

with a decision when you're you know when I started out as a podcaster there

when I started out as a podcaster there was no one screaming there was no one

was no one screaming there was no one there right right but at some point in

there right right but at some point in the journey you get immense pressure

the journey you get immense pressure yeah yeah well then you're also that

yeah yeah well then you're also that forces a decision out of you yeah well

forces a decision out of you yeah well you're also in a situation then when you

you're also in a situation then when you have to start worrying about your

have to start worrying about your reputation which is something you don't

reputation which is something you don't have to worry about when no one knows

have to worry about when no one knows who you are yeah and it's very dangerous

who you are yeah and it's very dangerous to worry about your reputation as soon

to worry about your reputation as soon as you start worrying about your

as you start worrying about your reputation as a part you're going to

reputation as a part you're going to fail yeah cuz you're not interesting

fail yeah cuz you're not interesting then you'll stop taking risks yeah so

then you'll stop taking risks yeah so then you know another question emerges

then you know another question emerges you got people yelling at you from this

you got people yelling at you from this side and this side well how do you know

side and this side well how do you know what's right well it

what's right well it isn't partly it's by listening because

isn't partly it's by listening because you want to pay attention to your

you want to pay attention to your audience but there's something guiding

audience but there's something guiding you if you do what you're doing properly

you if you do what you're doing properly that has nothing to do with the clamor

that has nothing to do with the clamor yeah yeah it's funny because actually it

yeah yeah it's funny because actually it links back to some of the other

links back to some of the other principles we talked about today it's

principles we talked about today it's one of one of the things I've learned is

one of one of the things I've learned is having a good relationship like good

having a good relationship like good friendships and a good part relationship

friendships and a good part relationship with my wife is actually the foundation

with my wife is actually the foundation for me to be able to navigate the scream

for me to be able to navigate the scream people screaming at me from both sides

people screaming at me from both sides yeah why because it just anchors me

in it's like an anchor of like knowing who I actually am irrespective of the

who I actually am irrespective of the the like the crowd telling you who you

the like the crowd telling you who you are yeah yeah well that's a good that's

are yeah yeah well that's a good that's a very good illustration of distributed

a very good illustration of distributed identity yeah yeah yeah it's like you

identity yeah yeah yeah it's like you are your wife and your friends and your

are your wife and your friends and your family yeah right there's no

family yeah right there's no fundamentally there's there cannot be

fundamentally there's there cannot be any separation there that's yeah and and

any separation there that's yeah and and well you you said you've you experienced

well you you said you've you experienced that it's like that's what gives you

that it's like that's what gives you that's part of what gives you a

that's part of what gives you a foundation it's like yeah that's not a

foundation it's like yeah that's not a losery and it's nice because as you said

losery and it's nice because as you said like when I go out into the world

like when I go out into the world everyone is very nice to me it's just if

everyone is very nice to me it's just if you spend too long on the internet

you spend too long on the internet people scream at you from both sides

people scream at you from both sides they say do it more like this do it like

they say do it more like this do it like this where are the CEOs this is called D

this where are the CEOs this is called D we want more of these kind of guess you

we want more of these kind of guess you should talk about this politics Trump

should talk about this politics Trump Cala Trump and the middle of that you

Cala Trump and the middle of that you going [ __ ] hell and that's where you

going [ __ ] hell and that's where you have to take some time to really like

have to take some time to really like tune into yourself and go who am I and

tune into yourself and go who am I and why am I doing this and what are my

why am I doing this and what are my principles and irrespective of the

principles and irrespective of the principles I Choose Or I believe in that

principles I Choose Or I believe in that there's going to be suffering and

there's going to be suffering and there's going to be sacrifice and

there's going to be sacrifice and there's going to be great Advent as well

there's going to be great Advent as well MH and the good one thing I really like

MH and the good one thing I really like that helps me for some bizarre reason is

that helps me for some bizarre reason is the knowledge that I will die

the knowledge that I will die someday why does that help it just it's

someday why does that help it just it's a good question why does it help it

a good question why does it help it helps

helps because if I think it's focusing in me

because if I think it's focusing in me on what actually matters yeah in a way

on what actually matters yeah in a way that I wouldn't be it wouldn't be as

that I wouldn't be it wouldn't be as easy to otherwise what it saying is it's

easy to otherwise what it saying is it's just a reminder of okay if I'm going to

just a reminder of okay if I'm going to die someday then actually this person's

die someday then actually this person's screaming at me to be more like

screaming at me to be more like this is obviously doesn't matter like it

this is obviously doesn't matter like it obviously doesn't matter in the in the

obviously doesn't matter in the in the context of my other priorities well it

context of my other priorities well it might be that death is what makes things

might be that death is what makes things matter scarcity always makes the value

matter scarcity always makes the value something well right but but then we're

something well right but but then we're talking about a kind of ultimate

talking about a kind of ultimate scarcity and like you can ask yourself

scarcity and like you can ask yourself one of the fundamental questions you can

one of the fundamental questions you can ask yourself is what is the nature of

ask yourself is what is the nature of the real right and I think death makes

the real right and I think death makes things real I agree yeah that's why it's

things real I agree yeah that's why it's an important I don't know seems like a

an important I don't know seems like a weird thing to say but it reminds me

weird thing to say but it reminds me that what's trivial and what's

that what's trivial and what's not um in the context of a finite amount

not um in the context of a finite amount of resources time attention that I can

of resources time attention that I can commit it's it's foolish to commit some

commit it's it's foolish to commit some of them to some of the things that I

of them to some of the things that I find myself committing them to sometimes

find myself committing them to sometimes when I remind myself of that death how

when I remind myself of that death how do you pick your guests curiosity yeah

do you pick your guests curiosity yeah that's I pick people I want to talk to

that's I pick people I want to talk to yeah it's like I'd like to hear what

yeah it's like I'd like to hear what that person has to say yeah and it's

that person has to say yeah and it's something that I'm trying to alert so

something that I'm trying to alert so it's typically when I when I'd seen you

it's typically when I when I'd seen you wrote a book called who we who wrestle

wrote a book called who we who wrestle with God that's the word Israel hey

with God that's the word Israel hey that's what Israel means uhhuh yeah yeah

that's what Israel means uhhuh yeah yeah and that's the chosen people of God

and that's the chosen people of God Israel I didn't know that yeah but I

Israel I didn't know that yeah but I thought this is a subject that I'm

thought this is a subject that I'm curious about so I would like to talk to

curious about so I would like to talk to Jordan to see if he can help me you know

Jordan to see if he can help me you know fill in this sort of jigsaw puzzle in my

fill in this sort of jigsaw puzzle in my brain of subject matters that relate to

brain of subject matters that relate to this and I evolve I'm probably going to

this and I evolve I'm probably going to have kids soon and when I have my kids

have kids soon and when I have my kids I'm going to be curious about Parenthood

I'm going to be curious about Parenthood and I'm going to speak to you know

and I'm going to speak to you know guests that can help me with that that's

guests that can help me with that that's been my framework and it's worked in

been my framework and it's worked in terms of I still like doing this well

terms of I still like doing this well there's no reason so when I'm on stage

there's no reason so when I'm on stage lecturing I'm on a

lecturing I'm on a journey it's a real journey yeah it's

journey it's a real journey yeah it's not an act like I pose a question to

not an act like I pose a question to myself before I go on stage it's a

myself before I go on stage it's a question I want the answer to and I

question I want the answer to and I don't have and I go on stage and I try

don't have and I go on stage and I try to move towards the answer and people

to move towards the answer and people come along and I want to go there and

come along and I want to go there and they want to come along it's a good deal

they want to come along it's a good deal and the podcasts are like that if you're

and the podcasts are like that if you're doing them honestly it's like I want to

doing them honestly it's like I want to talk to this person that's a really nice

talk to this person that's a really nice way of thinking about it moving towards

way of thinking about it moving towards an answer yeah not even sure what the

an answer yeah not even sure what the answer is but well and it'll change as

answer is but well and it'll change as you approach it move towards the answer

you approach it move towards the answer right the questions and the answers

right the questions and the answers change as you move towards it that's

change as you move towards it that's okay that's fine we touched on this

okay that's fine we touched on this earlier but it's something that I wanted

earlier but it's something that I wanted to touch on because one of the themes of

to touch on because one of the themes of this podcast is often the subject of

this podcast is often the subject of grief and I read that you lost both your

grief and I read that you lost both your parents within sort of six months of

parents within sort of six months of each

each other what do what does that moment

other what do what does that moment teach you about priorities about life

teach you about priorities about life about what matters about anything that

about what matters about anything that you could pass down to me that's

you could pass down to me that's important things last way less Long than

important things last way less Long than you

you think so you should be aware of that and

think so you should be aware of that and not take things for

not take things for granted no and so and I don't think I

granted no and so and I don't think I took my parents for granted now did I do

took my parents for granted now did I do that perfectly well we don't do things

that perfectly well we don't do things perfectly

perfectly but it was pretty good it was pretty

but it was pretty good it was pretty good I learned when my I watched my

good I learned when my I watched my wife's family go through the death of

wife's family go through the death of their mother and one of the consequences

their mother and one of the consequences of that was

of that was that my wife and her siblings and her

that my wife and her siblings and her father pulled closer together in during

father pulled closer together in during that time and that really it was like a

that time and that really it was like a wound healing you know mhm and so I saw

wound healing you know mhm and so I saw that and I saw that that worked so for

that and I saw that that worked so for example

example Tammy has a stronger relationship with

Tammy has a stronger relationship with her older brother than she did

her older brother than she did before her father also died so we lost

before her father also died so we lost her father and my father and my mother

her father and my father and my mother this year

this year basically it isn't that her brother

basically it isn't that her brother substituted for her father but it was

substituted for her father but it was that there was more there than she had

that there was more there than she had made use of and so when her father

made use of and so when her father father

father Departed the possibility of expanding

Departed the possibility of expanding that relationship with her brother was

that relationship with her brother was on the table and I did the same thing

on the table and I did the same thing with my sister and my

with my sister and my brother

brother and that's helpful it's

and that's helpful it's helpful

helpful so there's opportunity everywhere even

so there's opportunity everywhere even in grief there's

in grief there's opportunity is that one lesson that your

opportunity is that one lesson that your father taught you that stay pay

father taught you that stay pay attention

he was good at that he was good at he taught that very well and it wasn't a

taught that very well and it wasn't a good idea to not pay attention on my

good idea to not pay attention on my father he uh he had a he wasn't he

father he uh he had a he wasn't he wasn't I wouldn't describe him as an

wasn't I wouldn't describe him as an easy

easy person he had high standards and he was

person he had high standards and he was rather

rather unforgiving and

that's I don't know do you forgive the people that you love for not being

people that you love for not being everything they they could be that's a

everything they they could be that's a hard question it's okay dear it's like

hard question it's okay dear it's like is it

is it now I think we have a lot of that in our

now I think we have a lot of that in our culture it's okay I like you just like

culture it's okay I like you just like you

you are do you forgive

they're my dad and I sorted out our differences a long time ago you know

differences a long time ago you know when I left home

when I left home our relationship was somewhat fractious

our relationship was somewhat fractious from the time I was 13 till the time I

from the time I was 13 till the time I left

left home he developed quite a severe

home he developed quite a severe depression which ran in my family and

depression which ran in my family and that made

that made him harder to understand than had been

him harder to understand than had been the case previously it also made the

the case previously it also made the probability that if there

probability that if there were events in the household that they

were events in the household that they would be they'd have

would be they'd have more reverberation than they would have

more reverberation than they would have otherwise and that was confusing to

me I understood why that happened later not much later and it wasn't very long

not much later and it wasn't very long after I left home that whatever

after I left home that whatever differences I had with my father were

differences I had with my father were irrelevant so we didn't really

irrelevant so we didn't really have unresolved issues I wouldn't say

have unresolved issues I wouldn't say what about your mother what's the one

what about your mother what's the one lesson my mom was great what's the

lesson my mom was great what's the lesson if any she left with you my

lesson if any she left with you my mother was a very hospitable

mother was a very hospitable person and in the in the Old Testament

person and in the in the Old Testament accounts hospitality is a cardinal

accounts hospitality is a cardinal virtue and she was very good at making

virtue and she was very good at making people welcome when my the day my mother

people welcome when my the day my mother died I I I I thought about her most of

died I I I I thought about her most of the day that day memories came to mind

the day that day memories came to mind and one of the things I realized about

and one of the things I realized about my mother was that uh I don't have a

my mother was that uh I don't have a single negative memory of my

single negative memory of my mother it's really quite something to

mother it's really quite something to know someone for 62

know someone for 62 years and really I really don't have a

years and really I really don't have a negative memory of my mother I don't

negative memory of my mother I don't remember

remember any time where she

I could always make her laugh she had a very good sense of humor I appreciated

very good sense of humor I appreciated that a

that a lot and she although she was a very

lot and she although she was a very agreeable person and a very feminine

agreeable person and a very feminine person she was tough too and she wasn't

person she was tough too and she wasn't a edle

a edle type you know she had strong protective

type you know she had strong protective instincts but her desire to help her

instincts but her desire to help her children become independent Trump that

children become independent Trump that for sure

for sure Jordan we have a closing tradition on

Jordan we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves

this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next not knowing who

a question for the next not knowing who they're leaving it for and the question

they're leaving it for and the question left for you is how do you feel most

misunderstood I don't know if I am misunderstood I think the people who

misunderstood I think the people who don't like me some of them have me

don't like me some of them have me confused with some figment of their

confused with some figment of their imagination some of the people who don't

imagination some of the people who don't like me they understand

like me they understand me they just don't like what they

me they just don't like what they understand they don't like what it

understand they don't like what it implies and so that's okay with

implies and so that's okay with me I I don't feel misunderstood I

me I I don't feel misunderstood I wouldn't say I I've got nothing to

wouldn't say I I've got nothing to complain

complain about

um people who've been listening to me they understand me and as far as I can

they understand me and as far as I can tell that's been very good for them and

tell that's been very good for them and that's unbelievably gratifying for me

that's unbelievably gratifying for me it's you must experience that I mean

it's you must experience that I mean your podcast has had a broad effect and

your podcast has had a broad effect and I presume a positive effect on people

I presume a positive effect on people there isn't anything better than that to

there isn't anything better than that to see that what you're doing has that

see that what you're doing has that broadly salutary effect that's great

broadly salutary effect that's great that's another indication of our

that's another indication of our essentially I would say religious nature

essentially I would say religious nature you know Jo willing told me this you

you know Jo willing told me this you know Joo said that he could he could

know Joo said that he could he could have easily been like a gang leader

have easily been like a gang leader criminal type he's a tough Warrior

criminal type he's a tough Warrior character you know and he said when he

character you know and he said when he went into the military he discovered

went into the military he discovered that being the leader of a team and

that being the leader of a team and moving people in a positive direction

moving people in a positive direction there wasn't anything better than that

there wasn't anything better than that and so that just straightened him out

and so that just straightened him out you know and I feel exactly the same way

you know and I feel exactly the same way there isn't anything better than that

there isn't anything better than that and so I'm able to do that and I see the

and so I'm able to do that and I see the evidence of that all the time and

evidence of that all the time and whatever misunderstandings there might

whatever misunderstandings there might be about me necessary or unnecessary are

be about me necessary or unnecessary are so trivial compared to that that they're

so trivial compared to that that they're not they don't even really register what

not they don't even really register what a privilege Jord that's for sure Jordan

a privilege Jord that's for sure Jordan thank you so much it's a privilege we

thank you so much it's a privilege we share because doing this for me is a

share because doing this for me is a great privilege and the fact that it

great privilege and the fact that it positively impacts anyone is everything

positively impacts anyone is everything you've just said and I see that in your

you've just said and I see that in your work but also I see it when we have

work but also I see it when we have these conversations in the immense

these conversations in the immense Avalanche of people who profess that

Avalanche of people who profess that you've changed their life in some

you've changed their life in some positive way and moved them in a better

positive way and moved them in a better Direction and that's a refutable and no

Direction and that's a refutable and no one can you know I mean there's as I say

one can you know I mean there's as I say there's no greater privilege so Jordan

there's no greater privilege so Jordan thank you so much for your time I

thank you so much for your time I appreciate it thank you thanks for the

appreciate it thank you thanks for the invitation again it's always a pleasure

invitation again it's always a pleasure talking to you thank you isn't this cool

talking to you thank you isn't this cool every single conversation I have here on

every single conversation I have here on the D of a CE at the very end of it

the D of a CE at the very end of it you'll know I asked the guest to leave a

you'll know I asked the guest to leave a question in the Diary of a CEO and what

question in the Diary of a CEO and what we've done is we've turned every single

we've done is we've turned every single question written in the Diary of a CEO

question written in the Diary of a CEO into these conversation cards that you

into these conversation cards that you can play at home so you've got every

can play at home so you've got every guest we've ever had their question and

guest we've ever had their question and on the back of it if you scan that QR

on the back of it if you scan that QR code you get to watch the person who

code you get to watch the person who answered that question we're finally

answered that question we're finally revealing all of the questions and the

revealing all of the questions and the people that answered the question the

people that answered the question the brand new version 2 updated conversation

brand new version 2 updated conversation cards are out right now at Theon

cards are out right now at Theon conversation cards.com they've sold out

conversation cards.com they've sold out twice instantaneously so if you are

twice instantaneously so if you are interested getting hold of some limited

interested getting hold of some limited edition conversation cards I really

edition conversation cards I really really recommend acting quickly

really recommend acting quickly [Music]

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