The core theme is the re-imagining of Zakat, moving beyond a mere individual charitable act to a structured, community-based system for social welfare and civilization building, drawing inspiration from the historical model of Medina.
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So the whole system of Sharia is the
system of Medina. Cuz what makes Medina
Medina there's not geographical
location. It's not sand. It's not palm
trees. It's a set of systems that the
prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam
brought into the world and then a set of
roles which he empowered people to
embody. And the prophet said sallallahu
alaihi wasallam if you're kind to any
living creature there's a reward. So
charity continues. But zakat is a
particular institution. Most of the
planet has the same problem which is
rising cost of living, insufficient
public services and an increasing gap
between the very small elite and
everybody else. And to say that that way
forwards is just carrying on the same
model. Let's keep paying taxes. Let
government keep failing to look after
people but one day it will fix it. I
don't feel that's a convincing answer
anymore for most people. That's why most
people are feeling disengaged through
political systems. And so I feel we have
a duty to chart a new way forwards. And
the new way forwards taken from the
spirit of zakat is as follows.
Asalam everybody. Welcome back to the
podcast. We've been joined by Dr. Sahil
Hanife. He is a British Islamic scholar
and chief executive officer of the
National Zakat Foundation. Trained in
classical Islamic scholarship and
holding a doctorate from the University
of Oxford in Islamic legal thought. His
work focuses on reviving zakat as a
structured community-based system of
social welfare rather than simply an
annual charitable obligation on
individuals. Through the National Zakat
Foundation, he has been working to
institutionalize zagat within the UK,
aiming to build transparent, locally
grounded mechanisms that strengthen
Muslim communities and address poverty
in a sustainable fashion. Dr. Sab, as
you can obviously see, is a British
Pakistani. Dr. Sab, how are you doing?
and welcome to the show.
>> Uh it's an absolute pleasure to be here.
Thank you very much,
>> Dr. I mean we have to get to the thick
of it. Obviously when people are
watching this right now uh we're
shooting this and recording this much
earlier but by the time you're watching
this probably it is Ramadan maybe one or
day ahead or behind wherever you are in
the world. And this is the time when
people reflect, you know, annually on
how much zakat they owe and who do they
owe to and so on and so forth. But every
Ramsan I remember you know in and around
the Muslim world wherever I've met
Muslims in and around Ramadan the
conversation of zakat comes up and it
becomes a conversation about is it the
system is it a collective culture and
are we just going to keep doing this
seasonal sort of you know because right
now as we speak in the office there's
big bags of ration that we're gathering
up so because you know near Ramadan a
lot of hoarding happens so a lot of
zakat money is collected and spent you
by communal leaders, by elders, for the
family, for the neighborhood to maybe
buy rations of wheat and rice and sugar
and and and dal and spices in advance. A
lot of it is kept aside as cash and a
lot of it is done this and a lot of it
is that a lot of this is given to NOS's
and and public institutions that are
known to do good works. And the
conversation I've noticed especially
peaks around the last uh 10 days of
Ramadan is that what's the point of this
all? Is it just an individual thing? Is
it a system? Is it a culture? Is it like
saddakat and karat or is it something
more? What have you observed as a
minority community in the UK where you
want to instit institutionalize it even
as a minority community and what do you
see it for the wider Muslim world?
>> Okay. Uh thank you very much for that question.
question. Alhamdulillah.
Um, so I spent a period of time uh
researching and lecturing uh on Islamic
law. My specialtity is in Hanafi uh
Jewish Prudence.
And what made me almost leave the
classroom and join this project National
Zakat Foundation is just the the very
deepening uh realization I gained that
Islamic law at its core or Islamic
sacred law at its core is really a
social vision of vision you could say
social political vision and we've sort
of reduced it to just an individual
code. What can I do? What can I not do?
uh but that's not really what it means
to serve this vision because to serve
this vision I'd realize that there's
there's a sort of activism which is
required how can we nudge the world into
a better place if we don't start moving
the world into a better place then I
don't think we've been faithful to this
sacred heritage
uh and Islamic law or Islamic sacred law
or we can call it Sharia law
unfortunately Sharia's got a very bad
name I'm trying a lot now to rebrand it
because it's just you never understand a
law through some penal measures on the
side. You want to look at it as a
system. So it's got a very unfortunate
the name is not positive here in you
know certainly in where where I'm
sitting. So, I'm going to use Islamic
sacred law for the duration of this
conversation for now. And
what I've started believing and started
saying, and I apologize if this a
slightly long-winded answer, but just to
lay the framework for the rest of the
conversation, is that Islamic sacred
law, if you zoom out, it's what I call a
map of Medina. That's that's what I say.
And what do I mean by a map of Medina is
that the thing we call Sharia or Islamic
sacred law was all basically revealed
after the migration to Medina. There was
a lot of emphasis on charity in the
whole first uh 13 years of the
revelation in Mecca and very stern
messaging about care for the needy like
lots lots of messaging that if you are
not there for the downtrodden and the
needy uh God will ask you about that on
the day of judgment. So there's no doubt
that right from the beginning this
revelation was challenging its society
in what we'd call today social economic
justice. But there's no rules like zakat
or 2.5% or gold or cows, none of that.
So the whole system of Sharia is the
system of Medina. Cuz what makes Medina
Medina? Medina is the dar of Islam. It's
the dar of hij it's. It's the model of
the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam.
It's the way to live in the world. What
makes Medina Medina is not geographical
location. It's not sand. It's not palm
trees. It's a set of systems that the
prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam
brought into the world and then a set of
roles which he empowered people to
embody. So the thing we call Sharia is
the map of Medina. It's the it's it's
the set of systems which come together
to create this prophetic civilization.
And unfortunately we have wronged it by
not speaking like this about it and by
allowing Sharia to be associated with
backwardness. And that's our mistake in
not really understanding what is this
system uh that the prophet brought
sallallahu alaihi wasallam. So that's my
long-winded intro of what brought me
into this space and why I felt zakat was
so important
because zakat is not charity in general
because charity was emphasized
throughout the revelation and the
prophet said sallallahu alaihi wasallam
if you're kind to any living creature
there's a reward. The charity continues
but Zakat's a particular institution
and with this particular institution has
a few features in it. One of the feature
and I always like to introduce it
through two constraints. So one
constraint which is by the vast majority
of scholars zakat is paid to Muslims.
Charity is for everybody but zakat is
something specific. So what does that
mean? At its core, zakat is building a
tie of ummah, which maybe I'd like to
explore with you what that means and why
that's important. But it's really making
um real. It makes faith like family.
Just like we have a duty of care to
family, we have a special duty of care
to the faith family. There's another
constraint in zakat that all the
classical schools agreed to, which is
that the sunnah of zakat is that it's
localized. Meaning the zakat of lahor on
the sunnah is spent in Lahore. The zakat
of karach is spent in karach. The zakat
of London is spent in London. What what
does that create? It creates a real
responsibility wherever we live that we
need to know who are the Muslims here,
what are their needs, are their needs
being met. In order to do that, we have
to build roles and systems. We have to
build trust. We have to build records.
We need to build uh systems of diligence
and transparency so we can start pooling
funds and so it really creates a sense
of communal responsibility. We are me
and like you feel responsible as a
pillar of your faith for the well-being
of the Muslims in Lahore. I should feel
as a pillar of faith a responsibility
for the well-being of the Muslims of
London. If you just start with that
mentality and forget all the other rules
of zakat, it starts a very particular
journey in community building, community
responsibility, community leadership.
This is zakat as a system. And when you
take zakat out of the system and you say
it's just a personal thing I do because
I should, which is fine as an
individual, then you get into these
questions like what's the point and what
are we building and where is this taking
us? Uh so I'll stop my initial answer
here and there's a lot of themes here
that we could uh uh explore further.
>> No, I think it's I think you hit the
hammer in the nail on the head um in
that that Sharia is something that has
been equivocated to like sort of a
barbarism or a backwardness and again
penal clauses are something that have
been highlighted. A lot of it is our
failure. A lot of it was done during the
war on terror era as a design. The
failing on our end is something that we
can control. And as my father always
insists that you know I don't care about
things outside of myself. I have to he's
very stoic in that sense. Um you know
you could have done better and you could
have and that's one aspect. I mean just
when you said that there has to be a
centralized well-managed documented
system like a community or a town hall
situation where everybody gets together
they vote on the affairs there's a
committee there's ama there there's
recordkeeping and because when I think
about the Muslim community at home in
the Muslim world quote unquote or in in
in Europe or in America or elsewhere
they still have people brothers and
sisters who will be living under the
quote unquote poverty line right or
living in conditions of scholar and the
zakat never gets to them. It's not that
people aren't paying the zakat. It's not
that people aren't intending to help
them. It's because it's a disorganized
individual sort of charity obligation
that's seen as a spiritual obligation.
But because it is a legalized tax post
the Islamic State, post any sort of
centralized Islamic governance, the
question arises, what are we going to do
with it? And it's beautiful that you've,
you know, you've you you've eliminated
half of the questions I have on my thing
by telling us that zakat is Muslim
primarily uh except for the the shaz and
other sort of you know opinions that
exist and that zakat is localized
completely and uh I I was very shocked
by this that you can't pay super PACs
zakat. Did you say that or was that
>> you can't pay super you can't pay zakat
to super PACs right to lobby groups and politicians?
So, I just wanted to make you smile. I
just I just I didn't didn't intend it as
a real question and and there's clearly a
a
>> come back to this joke right at the end.
>> Inshallah. Inshallah. I just I'll give
my answer.
>> I just wanted to make you smile.
>> But the question that arises, there's
clearly a gap in the in in both the in
in the sort of there's an
informationational asymmetry between the
people being supplied the zakat and the
people providing the zakat. And then the
ideas of how that zakat would function.
I'll give you one example and then you
can take the floor which is when I was a
teenager I figured out my grandfather
came from the other city to visit us one
particular Ramadan and there was a
discussion of zakat going on and one of
the things they said is oh make sure you
go to the jails and I was like what
what's going on because you know you
have to release the necks of uh of
bonded labor and bonded men and that's a
big community in Pakistan which is just
in absolute destitution is living in
jails because they can't pay the bail
bond They've they've they've paid their
dues for their crimes, 8, 10, nine,
however many years, and they're just
sitting there. An earning member of the
family is just sitting there in bonded
labor or in in bondage in just general
jail or labor jail because they can't
pay the bomb the bail bond. And that's a
big section of the zakat that the
government and and community organizers
and nos have been unable to identify.
It's one of individuals who will some
uncle you know one particular Ramadan
will feel really bad maybe had to go to
the courts or something and then you
know he'll he he'll go free up a jail.
So that is alarming to me in the Muslim
world. I can't even imagine what it's
like outside the Muslim world.
>> Your question is interesting and it just
reminds of also a fact as we explore the
the system better. What I what I say to
people is that I feel it's a duty for us
to build this system wherever we live.
As for individuals,
they can choose where their zakat is
best spent. And so it's a sort of it's a
system which still has agency for the
givers because uh we're told for
example, our relatives are the best
people to give us zakat to. Our
relatives their needs might not be known
as well to a public but they might be
known to you in which case you can
choose to give directly and so it's just
this uh feature in the examples that
you've given is that we have to build as
we build systems we can build
identification of of big needs in
society like the ones you mentioned with
the prisons and jails and find actual
solutions for them but to retain the
agency of individual giving
along with the system is what allows
people to plug gaps in through social
relationships that otherwise might not
be known like like like hidden needs. Uh
so I just want to say I'm I don't believe
believe
uh it's 100% centralization is also the
the full end game but it's systems that
work and it's still giving people agency through
through
>> I just got a call from the the his
people they want me to end the podcast
the HT people just called me you know
his they want to end the podcast because
you're not talking about gold or silver
and centralized decentralized zakat.
What is this business? It's a real it's
a real question of agency, right? I find
that really fascinating that in the
modern era, traditionally trained
scholars like yourself are are are
taking into consideration individual
agency when we would be taught in a
classical sense that you know the
example immediately pops up in
everyone's head is S Abu Bakr and his
war on the rejectors of zakat. So how
does it work? And Pakistan has had a
very strange history of trying to
implement zakat at the time of za and
we've never really figured it out. There
was much backlash at that time as well
and to this day there's a lot of
trepidation about the ideas around
zakat. So you want a centralized
decentralized system which allows for
agency which is independent of quote
unquote the state and provides a
scholarship ambit to declare the the the
domain of the zakat but to allow for
individuals to both access that and
choose not to access it when they have
you know I know it's very convoluted but
does that make no
>> it's great summary just a few things I
want to plug into here
>> first of all about the past and
something about the theory when it comes
to the past you mentioned Abu Bakr may
Allah be pleased with him. So our
scholars of say in the time of the
prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam and succ
it's it's a taxation system within the
community. So there's a lot of roles
that started in the prophet's life
sallallahu alaihi wasallam around zakat
collection. Like zakat transformed
society because
a a society that were new new into
writing like the prophet sallallahu
alaihi wasallam spread reading and
writing and literacy in Medina. He in
short people were teaching others how to
write. So this was brought into zakat.
There were companions whose only job
whose main jobs around zakat was
recording. Land was being measured. Uh
amounts of dates were being estimated on
trees. Uh it was a full written system.
There were collectors. There were
guards. They were guardians. They were
transporters. It's an entire system. And
the collectors were collecting
everything. The gold, the silver, the
animals, the agriculture going to
people, taking stock, centralizing and
distributing. At the time of Sman, our
scholars say that a a small shift was
introduced and that was a distinction
between what's called private and public wealth.
wealth.
So private wealth which is gold, silver
which is money basically and trade items
like my my own stock of business. This
was called private wealth and I was
responsible to calculate and pay it. I
had the choice to pay it to the central
collector. I had the choice to pay
directly to someone I felt was in need.
As for the public wealth which was
basically animal livestock and
agriculture, this had public central
collectors to collect. One of the
reasons for this distinction was to
protect people from their privacy being invaded
invaded
by governments in the name of zakat
because people might otherwise say I'm
coming into your house I'm counting your
money cuz I have to fulfill this pillar
of zakad and from time of sman onwards
governments and public institutions were
told you have no agency you have no
right to enter people's privacy and
count their money. They will count
themselves. They will take stock
themselves and they'll pay themselves
and they might pay centrally to the
central collectors or they might pay
directly. So this bifocation is
interesting but there's this this
concern in the sacred law of protecting
privacy and always managing that power
play between central power and between people.
people.
That's something in the past if you want
to speak to that. But if I can just say
one last thing I wanted to come to about theory.
theory.
One last thing to say about theory cuz
you uh and central government it's very
delicate. So zakat through the time of
all the the rightly guided califfs the
prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam and
after zakat is taxation. It's managed by
it's it's and tax is the is the role of
a political authority to collect and
distribute tax. If you don't pay tax,
you're doing a criminal act in that
society. That's that's the rule today.
And that's what it was why Abu Bakr
fought his the campaign against the the
deniers or the withholders of zakat
because it's like you're breaking away
from that community if you withhold the
zakat from it. Now
the the the question we have to ask
today is how do you accurately map
traditional classical political theory
into the modern world
and that's not an easy question and the
reason for that is that modern political theory
theory
all modern states are based on a western
model of uh nation states they
centralize powers centrally. ally and
they take power away from communal infrastructure.
infrastructure.
The Islamic sacred law actually had a
very small central power
whose role was only to maintain
a thin layer of public law of protecting
wealth and property and rather it was
communal authorities. So if you're a
Christian community, you are meant to
self-govern as a Christian community. If
you're a Jewish community, you're
expected to self-govern as a Jewish
community. You're a Muslim community,
then the Sharia code is for you. It's
not enforced on all other communities.
And public law is just to maintain that.
And so I'm only adding this point of
theory, which is that zakat in its most
traditional form is taxation with
central power. But central power was
meant to be diffused in community. And I
think that's what we have to work
through as we build systems today. And
maybe that's this whole idea of civil
society that we have to talk about,
>> right? The idea that civil society
because in the modern day and age as
people have moved from the rural to the
urban have lost tribal and ethnic groups
and lineages and sort of extended
families. Uh the family unit is more
atomized than ever before. you have the
single family you know unit housing in
the modern city states and or city
states just city limits. Um so civil
society sort of juxtaposes itself as the
as the communal you know uh authority
and uh that has manifested in the
western liberal order as NGO culture and
of course there's a very negative sort
of connotation to it but what I mean is
that you know charitable organizations
made by people
uh both in for secular endeavors as well
as religious ones um on both sides of
the aisle. And those things have been
surprisingly more effective at social
change at upward mobility for
individuals than actual government
taxation programs generally. This has
been observed and um again because zakat
started as a taxation policy and like
you mentioned it it evolved
over time as the laws do obviously to
delineate between private wealth and
public wealth and to not harass the
people and harang the people obviously
with the rise of currency privacy issues
have always been there in a banking and
digital age there's a lot of people who
would suggest that uh in a modern
economy that other taxes paid such as a
wealth tax or income tax or general
sales taxes direct and indirect all of
these taxes amount to amount to you and
submit to amounts larger than what we
pay an average as zakat in the UK I
suspect it's upward of 40% 30% in
Pakistan if you
>> it depends on the bracket and slab
you're in
>> and in Pakistan it's upwards of 60 70%
if you account for inflation as well
which is taxation without representation
it's a kind of backs.
>> Uh given that consideration, people's
backs are already the average citizen's
back is already sort of broken. Uh and
you know, you're bending over backwards
to satisfy this this annual
um uh taxpaying.
Some people argue that the zakat is
paid. Where where do you stand on that?
And why does civil society answer?
There's the technical answer and then
there's maybe we can answer through um
purpose and philosophy. In terms of the
technical answer, obviously it's not
paid unless it's handled according to
the rules of zakat, which means
uh you know zakat is paid on particular
kinds of wealth of a particular amount
and goes to particular recipients. If
it's handled like that and it's
understood to be zakat then yes this is
possible. Uh otherwise not. So that's
that's the basic technical answer. So
zakat's not paid unless you followed
this set of rules. That's on the
technical side. If you go to the
purposeful side, uh if we say that zakat
is about developing our culture of we
could say social responsibility,
uh within strengthening the ties of
faith in a faith community, building a
notion of um in the place where we live,
there's a particular
purposefulness that zakat is meant to uh
bring out in all of us that government
taxation in its current form doesn't do.
That's one thing. Then there's the last
part. This last part is something I've
been saying a lot recently. Most of the
planet has the same problem, which is
rising cost of living, uh, insufficient
public services and an increasing gap
between the very small elite and
everybody else. And it's very unclear
what the best solution is to fill this
problem. And it's this fundamental
systemic problem that is fueling in
countries like the one where I'm living,
it's fueling a lot of the hate. And in
in most countries, you know, when when
there's such a collapse in people's
basic social expectations,
uh people always try to, you know,
populist leaders take advantage of that
to blame migrants, blame minorities,
blame this, blame that. And so over here
where I'm sitting, blaming Muslims is a
very popular thing. It starts from
blaming migrants and it goes to blaming
Muslims as a reason why everything is backwards.
backwards.
And what I'm saying to people is we need
to find a new way forwards for society.
And to say that that way forwards is
just carrying on the same model. Let's
keep paying taxes. Let government keep
failing to look after people. But one
day it will fix it. I don't feel that's
a convincing answer anymore for most
people. That's why most people are
playing disengaged through political
systems. And if you were to say, okay,
that's not the solution. Let's start
hating people and let's drive minorities
out. No one really feels that's going to
solve an economic problem. And so I feel
we have a duty to chart a new way forwards.
forwards.
And the new way forwards taking from the
spirit of zakat is as follows. What I'm
saying to people in England is we have
to remind people of a new ethos which is
the old ethos is that we are responsible
for each other's welfare and wellkeeping
because we've been taught everything is
the government's problem not my problem
government's problem and we've forgotten
an Islamic ethos and an ethos of all of
humanity that no it's my problem I have
to take responsibility I have to take
control so what I tell people in England
is if Muslims can organize
and coordinate our welfare through
zakat. We not only lessen a great burden
on public systems that can't keep up,
but we actually show a new model of
community-led systems of welfare. And I
don't think anything else can save
Britain and many of these countries
other than a public citizenry taking
responsibility and building systems. And
zakat is a system. And so I feel zakat
has a key role to play zakata system for
the future of saving a lot of you could
say the modern world western world uh
modern civilization I think it's got a
big lesson for us. No, but here's the
thing. It's kind of a circular sort of
logic, right? Because on the one hand,
we see that the nation state in the form
of the welfare state, a very Keynesian
sort of model that they have within the
UK where, you know, all economic slump
is is is challenged by, you know,
development projects and big, you know,
welfare reliefs and that sort of thing
to drum up both economic activity as
well as to have a safety net for the
average public. On the one hand,
taxation policies keep going up, taxes
keep going up, inflation keeps going up
and the problem is like it has an
inverse relationship with the problem.
The the number of dependents keep
increasing and in that in that sort of
very basic binary calculus,
>> the rhetoric coming out of Tommy
Robinson, one of these characters makes
sense immediately on face value to the
average Brit. And they're like, "Yeah,
it's the it's the Browns. Why have they
come in? They're taking all these
things. These are our things. These are
our jobs. These are welfare
schemes. These are our uh uh public
welfare projects. And on the other hand,
you're recommending this but more
essentially just welfare stuff, but also
organized by the community. So not only
people are paying the taxes, but they're
also paying zakat to take out a full
segment of British society, which is the
Muslim community to create less people
dependent on public welfare
institutions. Is that does that because
if the first time around when the
government was dispersing the money
didn't work, why would it work if
aunties and uncles on masjid committees
and ama and the individual discretion of
people was going on? It's it's as if the
people if you factor out the fact that
UK people send a lot of zakat back home.
If we take that out, that is an angle I
get. If it were to be localized just on
the Muslims within the UK,
it would just be more of public welfare
except it's within the community. That's
the only major difference. Does it
actually address the problem of
non-working people of people being
unable to get up on their feet and
organize their families and organize
their sort of you know problems or is it
simply just another way to approach
public welfare through a decentralized model.
>> So there's quite a few things here and I
don't have the absolute answers but
there's a few things I I'd like to share
on this. So first of all
if people find solutions in community
then there's no limit to what those
solutions can be. If you think about
family there's no limit to what family
can offer a person because you know
let's say it's an it's it's an alien to
that individual. You give a fund and you
leave them alone. You give a program
then you leave them alone. Family
there's no limit. Family is there for
you for the rest of your life. They will
tell you off. They will insult you. They
will look after you. They'll make sure
you're never hungry. Do you get the
idea? Community is the thing that nurtures.
nurtures.
No alien program nurtures like a
community can. But what we've forgotten
in modern living is the meaning of
community and the responsibility of
community, which is at the heart of what
I'm calling Medina or a Sharia model of
living. It's really communal power.
That's just one thing to bear in mind.
It's not more handouts, but it's another
form of responsibility.
And this other form, there's no limit to
what it can actually achieve. This is
the the first thing. The second thing I
think that's really important is that
zakat is not the be all and end all of
uh an economic or social or welfare
vision. Zakat was a foundation for a new
way of living in the world. Most of the
stories of zakat and the the wonderful
transformations of zakat and the
importance of zakat in our history
normally is the first 100 years of
Islam. You hear a lot of stories about
zakat. Zakat in terms of a source of
wonderful stories. Uh you don't hear it
that much in Islamic history. Why not?
Because it gets drowned out by another
set of stories. That other set of
stories is the stories of the or the
public endowments. So what's the
relationship between the two? It says
zakat sets a foundation for a new way of
living in the world. It says just a
little bit from a very particular form
of wealth when it's centralized and
managed starts a foundation for let's
just say social good for now and it
unlocks in a person the idea
my value is how much I can give back.
Islamic history is a history of an ever
richer public space and that's one of
the key features of all of Islamic
civilization. You go into old Delhi, old
Lahore, old Koala Lumpur, old Damascus,
old Istanbul. It might be different
ruling parties but society is the same.
free schools, free hospitals, built
roads, free waterways, not paid by
taxation, not paid by government,
but created by an ever richer public
space because a new kind of human being
has been fashioned who's been told that
the best thing you can do is leave
behind something for the public. So, I'm
saying that yes, zakat is not the be all
and end all, but think of zakat as
clearing out the arteries so that a lot
of other stuff can flow. And so I think
yes, a community-based revolution is not
just replacing tax. It's actually
another way, another form of solidarity
that I think modern nations, I don't
think they will thrive without. And and
as you build it, I think it shifts power
balance. I think naturally power comes
back to community. It shifts power. It
shifts the nature of this of what power
is in society and that will affect
taxation and other things. see in the
future you know >> pardon
>> pardon
>> I say Allah knows best of course but that's
that's
>> and you know in this is sort of a very
libertarian sort of you know a very
different perspective on Islam because
I'll give you the example of most of the
Muslim world where where I am is that uh
there is a sort of a default Keynesian
welfare style sometimes even Islamic
socialism in the case of baism or
Pakistan in the 80s and '90s we describe
ourselves as such. We weren't actually.
But whatever that means, government is
always big. In the Muslim world, there
is no style of governance offered either
in the democracies or semi-democracies
or monarchies that we have where
government is small. In the monarchies,
it's simply it's family rule. It's it's
a company rule, right? It's like a it's
a company of uh it's like a family
business at best. In the semi or quasi
democracies, you like Turkey, Pakistan
and Malaysia and the like, the
government is still a big deal. It's not
a lot of because that's the beast the
the way the nation state beast is that
it wants to centralize all and most
economic power.
this kind of decentralization is it
simply a reaction to the problem at hand
which if it is fair enough because the
the the economic inequality problem is a
a big problem and if it's simply a
reaction from the the organic mechanisms
of the Sharia I'm fine with it but
beyond that is there any DNA within the
faith tradition that allows the room for
this kind of reaction is it just a
standoff reaction one-off reaction into
the 20th 21st century and the kind of
inequality it's produced or is it
something within our DA like you
mentioned with the okaf systems that
rose up and I've had the privilege to do
Hajj and and and see the the the wak of
sman in action you know different of
sman whether that be tasting the date
from his uh wak
gardens or seeing hotels that are being
run in his name and I've even seen slips
of bank accounts being run in his name which
which
It's unimaginable right in this day and
age. Uh
>> is there something in our DNA within the
legacy of the and the tradition and the
legal code that allows for this kind of
decentralization and community- based uh welfare?
welfare?
So what I'd say in short is that this is
in to the best of my understanding and
reading this is the DNA of the Islamic
sacred law. meaning the idea of big
state in the way that we think of it
today. I do not to the best of my
knowledge I don't think this has ever
come indigenously from the Islamic
world. Uh there's an important modern
author you don't have to agree with
everything that he writes but his most
recent book is radical separation of
powers. his name is W Halak and he does
this contrast and and so he just in his
most recent book he's really spelt out
in quite a bit of detail how an Islamic
governance in its most indigenous
traditional form is the most radical one
that separates the powers that holds
government to task it because it puts
much more power into communal infrastructure
infrastructure
like law is made by scholars who are
nothing to do with the government anyway
he spells it out a great length. So my
what I would suggest this is the only
classical DNA that's faithful and
indigenous and really comes out of the classical
classical
uh and it's the closest to our theory
our theory of of morality and ethics
that human beings are responsible not
systems you know the modern world uh is
very impersonal
it's the corporation you know Tesco did
something or Exxon Mobile not me I was
just the CEO. I'm no longer the CEO.
This impersonalization which is the
whole modern world is completely
antithetical to a system which believes
in human moral responsibility. So I'd
say that quite emphatically. Now I'm not
saying this as a fatwa meaning that in
today's world big state is bad. I'm I'm
not saying that. I'm just saying that if
you were talking on a blank canvas, is
this something which comes out of our
sacred tradition? It isn't what we would
associate big central. It's not that
it's it's this uh system of uh the
system, you know, it's this general
pattern we've been uh describing. I'm
not so it's not a fatwa for today. Uh
and it's not talking about what's the
best way to govern today. But
today's experiment which is what we can
call modern western nation states which
centralize power and control by
weakening other locacies of power. Uh
whereby separation of power is not as
strong as it is in the Islamic ideal. Uh
this modern experiment is cracking its
economic systems are cracking. Its
welfare is cracking. Its inequality is
going crazy. People are looking for
solutions. The international order is
failing. I mean, everyone realizes it.
We're at this moment of seismic shifts.
No one can tell what the future is. And
so, at a time like this,
I think there's an opportunity for us to
be creative.
And what is the most creative thing?
It's just going back to a blank canvas.
and thinking well what are ways for
humans to live in society and as Muslims
who believe in a sacred tradition and a
sacred law and the beautiful prophetic
example of civilization building in the
enlightened city of Medina upon whose
resident be abundant blessings and peace
I think there's something for us to
learn and I don't think our job is to
break I think our job is to save so even
in our conversation within the United
Kingdom I say it's clear that there's
fragmentation. It's clear that there's
people being left behind and we as a
bearers of a sacred message and sacred
law, we have to see our role as healers.
And so, zakat, like salat, like the rest
of the sacred law shouldn't be seen in
isolation. It's part of a sacred code of
civilization building. And wherever
Muslims live as a minority or a
majority, we really have to go back to
our roots. Understand that our role is
to be crossgeneriz
crossgenerational civilization builders
and we have to be healers. That's all.
So I'm not saying break big states. I'm
not saying in today's world big states
are bad. But I'm saying we have a model
and it gives a lot of power to
individuals and communities. And I think
we have to seize the moment and heal.
That's that's what I feel. Um, I think
there is a a breath of fresh air in the
sense of I had this conversation many
years ago with my brother and he scoffed
at me at the idea of uh I how zakat is
is a methods of of decentralizing and
that it's simply a charity tax and it's
not a wealth tax and those are two
different you know and then I said Islam
was was very small government and he was
just he was completely um
uh he was completely uh struck by the
idea that oh that's that's the complete
opposite of what it is. we were having
this sort of conversation like a very
casual dinner table kind of like afterar
or something like that and it was like
oh most people in the Muslim world sort
of conceptualize especially in the
modernist sort of movement in different
you know jamaats I don't want to name
them but uh they sort of conceptualize a
sort of socialist model of Islamic
welfare and it's always rubbed me the
wrong way because all the all the worst
things in the name of the modern nation
state are in that structure all the
worst things about the modernation state
about how controlling it is about how it
sort of engineers society you know
making policies incentivizing and
disincentivizing behaviors uh
micromanaging the the the minutia of
people's lives in the with the
culmination of the smart city which I
hate I hate that word by the way
>> it's word
>> the smart city you know like the smart
sort of surveillance city basically
that's what it is
>> um and now we see it in complet this
whole system in complete chaos and
disarray with all of its arms and
felanges and fingers and everything.
It's all sort of crumbling down from the
center. Um and uh there is room for sort
of reimagining again very
unimaginatively in just the image of our
old tradition an idea of decentralized
systems. You immediately you know
dispelled any any notion or confusion
that I had about but it is a centralized
you know taxation collection scheme. You
explained to the private and the public
and that much is clear and when because
you localized it and tied it up with the
modern tribal system which is a sort of
civil society and them organizing you
know along city lines, town lines you
know we have all these kinds of uh
logistical divisions that we can devise
up to to to to do to to make it function
smoothly and then you added the
superructure of the okaf and or system
which is pretty much dead in Pakistan by
the way which is very like it's not dead
in the sense that it doesn't exist but
it's dead in the sense it's not an active
active
uh it's not an active character in
society. People don't actively think
about the idea of a wak establishing
okah or you know uh even even if they do
it in the form of a modern style
endowment as opposed to an Islamic style
wak and that's not me just being you
know uh
uh very overly scrutinizing. I mean in
that they're both different. They're not
the same as far as I've understood the w
and you can clarify that as well.
If it's a thing about redistribution, if
the central thrust of our argument is
redistribution of wealth and in in a way
that we can manage inequality,
is the point to set up some sort of
universal basic income as libertarian
economists would say? Is the point to
have safety nets? Is the point to punish
the rich or the productive? These are
different questions that come to mind.
Uh what's the I studied economics. So
I'm going to ask you the
>> that's brilliant. I I'll share some
thoughts on that and maybe I'll circle
back to some of the broader political
structures as well. So I agree with
maybe we've gone too political but I
will come back to something you all said
right at the beginning of your comment
but just where you've ended it now. So
zakat is really fascinating because it's
only on particular forms of wealth and
it's only a little bit actually. It's on
the forms of wealth that we call growing
wealth or the Arabic phrase was alami.
It's not wealth tax in its basic form.
So it's really in our economy what acts
like money. What's more liquid of your
holdings? That that's at the heart of
it. So let's say I'm a rich person with
uh 20 Mercedes although I just have one
kid and one wife and let's say I've got
a summer house and a winter house
somewhere and so on. In the most
traditional rules of zakat, I don't pay
zakat on any of these items. These are
my fixed holdings. They're not my trade
items. They're not my money items.
They're not part of my growing economy.
They're my fixed assets. And so, zakat
is not anti-rich. It's not saying
everyone should have one house or why do
you have more cars than you need? At
least zakat is not. And so, it's far
from being anti- rich. All it is is
saying you have a responsibility
to the needy where you are. So it's it's
it's it it's a narrative of responsibility.
responsibility.
It doesn't come after any of your fixed
assets, however big they are. But what
I'm calling your more liquid assets,
which is your money, your gold, your
silver, or your trading items. Then it's
this very small percentage. 2 and a
half% is not anything. You know, it's
not a a big tax rate by any standards of
that. You know, you mentioned 60%, 40%,
this is nothing. And that's part of why
zakat gets belittled as well because,
you know, we always want to complain. If
it was a lot, we'd say it's too much. If
it's a little, we're like, what's the
point? I already give to this and the
mosque and that and the tax. Like, it's
nothing. But that's
the the power of zakat is this. It's
designed to be easy on the giver. It's
not anti-giver and it's not anti-rich.
It's telling the rich person, your
wealth is blessed if you keep in your
mind that the poor also have a right and
it's not a difficult right. It's never
going to feel like losing an arm and a
leg. It's just like a haircut. The part
of your wealth that you're growing all
year long, just trim a little bit of it.
Uh so it's not equal. I used to avoid
the word inequality for the longest time
because I thought inequality means there
must be equality
as an ideal which is not the ideal of
the sacred law or the zakat. People are
capable of being riched, encouraged to
be rich. Their fixed assets aren't going
to be taken in zakat. But it's the
circulation. This is the the first thing
the but but but but the baraka of zakat
is it's one of the biggest global
movements of philanthropy today. They
estimate the global zakat today annually
anywhere between 400 billion and one
trillion dollars. The UN agencies are
trying to tap into zakat. Oxfam is
trying to tap into zakat. Everyone who's
doing big global work wants a piece of
zakat. Why? Because it's such a
substantial movement of wealth. Although
it's such a small band of payment and
that's the baraka of if you make
something easy, you actually can get
wide participation.
>> We call it the left of
In economics, we call it the LER curve.
We call it the LER curve in economics.
The LER curve. We have curves for
everything. By the way, we have numbers
and math and curves for everything. See
how see how good the world is. See how
good we've done.
>> Uh so as an economist, I have to say I
can say that I'm an economist.
>> Uh although only technically on paper,
I've never really done any real research
work. Uh the LER curve is a curve which
basically demonstrates how if you lower
the tax brackets and make taxation
easier the higher the people who would
pay them and this is observably true. So
the burka that you're mentioning is a
genuine mechanism of human behavior
100%. It's it's it's quantified in uh
>> You're so patient. No, it's excellent.
I'm I'm going to message you afterwards
to give you the spelling of that.
>> L A F E R L
E R. Okay, perfect.
>> Hilarious. Yeah. Yeah.
>> And uh so this is the first thing. So
you can't call it anti- rich and it's
not promoting the thing that we might
but it's promoting communal responsibility.
responsibility.
And it promotes an ethos that you are
responsible for the wellkeep of the
people who are in need who are around
you. And that's why it doesn't translate
necessarily as to basic universal
income. What it translates as is a duty
of care. That's all. Zakat is that
minimum thing. And then we have other
rules like if your neighbor is starving,
you have a duty to look after that
person. Zakat or no zakat from your
surplus. That's why I said think of
zakata as just clearing the arteries
for a movement of social responsibility
which you do as a moral individual.
That's how you should uh how I think we
should think about it. Uh
>> that's beautiful.
>> I'll go back to the political point
later because you made the point ahead.
Yeah. So I'll just stop here for on your
on your question.
>> Yeah. So there there is a there's a
bigger question that comes to mind in
today's day and age when we speak about
zakat. It is the month of Ramadan right
now probably when people are watching uh
is the question of Gaza and in the
digital age and the post 7th of October
age both questions of technology and
transparency come up because of the
situation that people might people
aren't as comfortable with government
and public organizations. So they're
like what do we do with our zakat when
it comes to Gaza or generally? So how
does technology play a role in creating
that transparency? And there's been a
lot of complaints about people donating
to Gaza or the Palestinian cause and not
feeling like anything comes of it.
So thirdly, is there room for a global
unified front for a place like
Palestine, for a Gaza, for a Kashmir,
for a Burma, for the most affected parts
of the um like you said, you've
localized zakat and fair enough, but is
that within the ambit of zakat to also
have global bodies or are those the
other systems that come down the
arteries once you've cleared up the clogs?
clogs?
>> What's the what's the take? And so I was
very careful to call it the sunnah of
zakat is localized and I think that's
that's a useful word for for a few reasons.
reasons.
>> First of all the sunnah is the proper
way of practice. This is the first
thing. So that's why I said I believe we
have a duty to create these local
systems because it's the the the vision
of the of the of the sacred law is a
community that is built in places and
zakat is is an important part of that.
So I think we need to crack what it
means to create lorei zakat and karachi
zakat and London zakat. We have to crack
that puzzle as a system. And I also said
to you individuals themselves have a
choice and an agency of how they spend
into that system or to relatives. Now
our scholars on the question of
localization while they all agreed on
the essential what I'm calling sunnah
they did disagree on the boundaries and
the most um flexible actually are the
hanafies on this so some of the scholars
of law said it's obligatory to pay zakat
in your locality you shouldn't take it
out even for relatives and people in
greater need this vision really builds
out strength you know you really build
that lore and then lore starts
supporting karach then lore and karach
you start it's really a vision of
building out power but you really invest
locally but other scholars said no our
hanfi scholars they were the most
flexible on this question what they said
was it is disliked or makru to take
zakat out of your locality unless it's
to your relatives or people in greater
need and so an idea of giving zakat
globally to is fine on this because you
might make a reasonable statement to say
people in karate are still surviving.
People in Gaza have nobody to help them.
So, we have a duty and that's perfectly
fine. And as we build out our systems
and our administrators, we can have
reliable decision-m around this as well.
You know, data on how we can do this
better because currently we're very
emotional. We're being driven by very uh
emotional movements on not always the
most effective. Now, so there's no harm
in global bodies and and there's a prem
there's a a basis for this and it
doesn't rule out the duty of building
our local systems as well. This is the
this is the I think the most important
thing to state here. And then finally,
the problem with situations like like as
everybody saw is that without a
political solution, your aid isn't
always going to be aid. A lot of zakat
was just in pucks. It wasn't able to go
anywhere really. And then a lot of
charities suffered from this. Meaning
they did a lot of fundraising and they
raised a lot of money but then they
didn't know how to get it in actually.
And they weren't it wasn't difficult for
them to know how to spend this money.
And so you can't solve these big
problems without a
political engagement theory practice.
And that's where we shouldn't belittle
what otherwise sounds very
insignificant. You know, building out
systems where you live, but that's the
basis of building power. And so all I'll
say is we need to have a more
sophisticated theory of influence,
not just international aid. Cuz you
know, if you're focusing on lore, let's
say you're focusing on lore, you really
can see if it's working. You really can
address bottlenecks. But if you're
helping, you can't see all the intermediaries.
intermediaries.
And so when it comes to international
aid, we do need a much more intelligent
system of really understanding what is
real aid, what is what are political
barriers, what are the best way to
address political barriers so we can be
effective. I think that that's just one
thing to keep in mind.
>> That was very well put. Thank you very
much. Uh you know because um people try
to give more precise answers to this
because of the sensitivity of the matter
but it is not a black and white issue.
It's not a black and white issue. It's
very unfortunate that you have to tell
people this that we haven't built the
systems that allow for the power for us
to effectively enact any political, you
know, and it's not it's a Jew obviously,
but it's not a small one of uh of that
collective system to have localized ones
and we never built them. It's it's not
like you're the first person and
mashallah you've done innovative and
great work but you're not the first
people to come along and be like we need
to develop local systems. We just never
did. We never bothered to. in the Muslim
world especially it's particularly
embarrassing and um you know all the
criticisms that we have you western
Muslims and the western dawa scene and
western academics and Islam this is one
of the great works that could come out
potentially and be revolutionary for the
Muslim world quote unquote uh back home
essentially because I don't see a lot of
conversation about zakat centered around
decentralization the last uh public
intellectual figure around zakat was Dr.
Prasad Ahmed Rah he talked a lot about
zakat and again it was always
centralized with the state there was no
imagination there and I suspect it was
because of the lack and even though I
was completely enamored with him and
obsessed with Dr. seem as one of my
great teachers of the Quran as a lay
person. But because of the lack of the
understanding of our tradition in the
classical sense, a lot of the public
speakers, intellectuals, people who are
moving, you know, ideas within society,
moving discourse are unable to imagine
this very sort of simple decentralized
model. It just isn't in the
conversation. Even recently uh a friend
of mine uh you know a gentleman scholar
like yourself who is not trained
classically but is wellversed in the
fields of economics and accounts and
finance has made it his life's mission
to centralize the zakat system as state
policy. Again, we've talked about it on
and off camera with him and Udu
obviously, but the decentralization
element simply is not there in the
public consciousness. Even though the
ama the traditionally trained are aware
of this, but the conversation between
the ama and the more secular trained
Muslim mind is not it's not happening
and hopefully this will be a bridge to
that. What about are you looking at your
smiling spec skeptically? Could I just
comment just so that also I'm clear on
what I'm thinking as well. Just this is
the that that political point but I can
just be clear as well on this.
>> So zakat in its most classical practice
and as expressed through our uh books is
one of the roles of government. Like I
said earlier it's a taxation. The only
thing is that government was small
uh and it was uh you know when we talk
about Islam you know we said right at
the beginning of our call today that
Sharia has become a scary word for
people the reason why it's scary they
take the most
hard to grasp parts of Sharia and then
they mix it with big government and they
think oh Sharia wants to impose things
on everybody whereas Sharia came to
protect the autonomy of communities. If
you study our classical
Sharia came to say Muslims who believe
in this follow this and Christians who
believe in what they believe they'll be
protected to self-govern. So Sharia was
a plurality of faith communities protected
protected
by Sharia to be dignified followers of
their faith tradition. And so there's a
plurality of faith and governance that
modern states cannot offer because of
their centralizing ethos. And so it's
not that zakat in its classical form is
not handled by government, but it's just
that it's a it's another view of
government that we have to figure out in
today's world what's the best way to
approximate to it. Now I'm coming I live
in a minority setting. National Zakat
Foundation start in the UK. Now we we're
growing. to win in Canada, Australia,
New Zealand, Netherlands, Germany right
now. And we're interested in seeing how
we can help more and more Muslim
communities start in a minority setting.
There's also a political theory. Our
classical Fukah Fukah had so our Hanafi
scholars say Iban Abin and others of
Fukah they said if Muslims live as a
minority, they should still self-organize
self-organize
uh to have Friday prayers. They should
self-organize to have a kadi to dispute
in their affairs and then they should
ask the non-Muslim ruler can we have a
Muslim governor under whom we can live
this sacred code and so there's a
political theory even in for the
minorities which is how do you
self-organize how do you create a
leadership how can you create all of
these systems to work because that's
what I said Sharia is a civilizational
code you have to organize for it now
what's interesting as I'm thinking
through this is what I'm interested I
said to you um uh when it came to uh Pakistan
uh when it came to uh Pakistan was um I understand that Pakistan is you
was um I understand that Pakistan is you know the Arab world is very much
know the Arab world is very much centralized religious authority
centralized religious authority my understanding of Pakistan it's
my understanding of Pakistan it's somewhere in the w in the middle and
somewhere in the w in the middle and maybe there's a lot of scope for
maybe there's a lot of scope for developing these theories and models and
developing these theories and models and practice in Pakistan as a Muslim
practice in Pakistan as a Muslim majority country which might not be in
majority country which might not be in many other Muslim uh majority countries.
many other Muslim uh majority countries. I don't know what you uh think about
I don't know what you uh think about this.
this. >> So Dr. S just asked me the question that
>> So Dr. S just asked me the question that uh do I think Pakistan is particularly
uh do I think Pakistan is particularly poised to strike the balance between
poised to strike the balance between centralized and decentralized when it
centralized and decentralized when it comes to religious affairs. And the
comes to religious affairs. And the fascinating element is that this is just
fascinating element is that this is just part one of the episode.
part one of the episode. part two will come out soon because
part two will come out soon because we're short on time and that's a very
we're short on time and that's a very detailed answer that that question
detailed answer that that question requires. Uh but up till now I think
requires. Uh but up till now I think it's a fascinating idea because we've
it's a fascinating idea because we've just introduced something very new to
just introduced something very new to the very Muslim mind of the the modern
the very Muslim mind of the the modern the English medium education educated
the English medium education educated Muslim mind in Pakistan because they do
Muslim mind in Pakistan because they do see zakat and and and and and and these
see zakat and and and and and and these kinds of efforts as a centralized
kinds of efforts as a centralized government effort and uh a lot of
government effort and uh a lot of questions will be coming from the
questions will be coming from the audience. So we'll be able to address
audience. So we'll be able to address them much better in the second sitting.
them much better in the second sitting. Might be a bit of a disappointment for
Might be a bit of a disappointment for some of the audience, but this is all
some of the audience, but this is all the time we had for today. Dr. Sab, is
the time we had for today. Dr. Sab, is that quite all right?
that quite all right? >> Yep, absolutely. As you see fit.
>> Yep, absolutely. As you see fit. >> Inshallah. Thank you for joining us and
>> Inshallah. Thank you for joining us and uh we hope Ramadan will be going well
uh we hope Ramadan will be going well for everybody. Inshallah, we'll see you
for everybody. Inshallah, we'll see you in part two of the zakat conversation.
in part two of the zakat conversation. But I have a sneaking suspicion because
But I have a sneaking suspicion because of my own personal interest, I don't
of my own personal interest, I don't think there's going to be just two
think there's going to be just two parts. I have a lot of questions and I
parts. I have a lot of questions and I think every time I'm going to take more
think every time I'm going to take more than a couple of hours. I'm serious.
than a couple of hours. I'm serious. This is uh because you because every
This is uh because you because every time you answer a question it raises
time you answer a question it raises more questions. Alhamdulillah. It's very
more questions. Alhamdulillah. It's very beautiful in that sense that uh uh you
beautiful in that sense that uh uh you don't close the door for any curiosity
don't close the door for any curiosity and and growth. Um
and and growth. Um >> I just say from my point of view I would
>> I just say from my point of view I would be very honored to continue the
be very honored to continue the conversation with you because obviously
conversation with you because obviously I'm originally from uh Pakistan and to
I'm originally from uh Pakistan and to be able to understand better
be able to understand better this lens you know that we both bring
this lens you know that we both bring east west in very similar questions and
east west in very similar questions and problems I think it would be very
problems I think it would be very meaningful to me personally and also
meaningful to me personally and also that even the organization I'm with
that even the organization I'm with national zakat foundation we are trying
national zakat foundation we are trying to understand how we can support more
to understand how we can support more global community. So even just this
global community. So even just this conversation could lead to actual we
conversation could lead to actual we actually can do some actual things
actually can do some actual things together which is quite interesting to
together which is quite interesting to me.
me. >> I immediately just the idea that you
>> I immediately just the idea that you guys have found so much success outside
guys have found so much success outside it's uh it's an exciting prospect for me
it's uh it's an exciting prospect for me >> because I've always seen as a child it's
>> because I've always seen as a child it's been very keen on the collection and
been very keen on the collection and spending of zakat. I've always been very
spending of zakat. I've always been very curious about it. I've read so many of
curious about it. I've read so many of scholarly of modern scholarly work.
scholarly of modern scholarly work. Obviously I'm not uh not you know I'm
Obviously I'm not uh not you know I'm not like a madrasagrad or anything. So,
not like a madrasagrad or anything. So, and um and I've been seeing it being
and um and I've been seeing it being collected and participated with my
collected and participated with my father and my family and I've always
father and my family and I've always been in the center of it and I see it as
been in the center of it and I see it as I've always found it to be lackluster in
I've always found it to be lackluster in its delivery. There's always something
its delivery. There's always something like something inside me tells me
like something inside me tells me there's so much room for innovation in
there's so much room for innovation in the positive sense not in the bida sense
the positive sense not in the bida sense uh in the modern context you know uh and
uh in the modern context you know uh and uh it's it's exciting for me this
uh it's it's exciting for me this prospect. So, Dr. sub so much. Uh, thank
prospect. So, Dr. sub so much. Uh, thank you so much for your time and I'll see
you so much for your time and I'll see you soon inshallah.
you soon inshallah. >> Thank you so much.
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