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Joe Rogan Experience #2401 - Avi Loeb

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This discussion explores the potential existence of extraterrestrial intelligence and technology, arguing for a more open-minded and data-driven scientific approach to investigating anomalous interstellar objects and phenomena, rather than dismissing them based on conventional thinking.

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Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> Train by day. Joe Rogan podcast by

>> All right. Good to see you, sir.

>> Great to be with you, Joe.

>> It's a perfect time to bring you on

because uh things are getting very wild.

>> Yeah, there is a lot of misinformation.

You know, some people said I invented

three Atlas, this object uh in order to

distract attention from the Epstein

files. Is that what people were saying?

>> Yeah. And I said, "Look, this object is

the size of Manhattan Island. It's at 4

and a half times the Earth sun

separation. Um, if I was able to put it

out there, you know, I would be more

powerful than the Pope. And because

we're talking about a giant object that

you can see from any place on Earth, you

know, you can buy online

a telescope that will allow you half a

meter in size that will allow you to see

it. It's out there. It cannot be faked.

>> Well, those people are fools. You can't

listen to those people.

>> I don't listen to those. I I don't

listen to many people, you know.

>> Uh, initially a lot of people were

dismissing your concerns and they were

saying that this object is nothing but a

comet and it's very normal. Uh, but then

as it got closer and as we got more

data, it seems like you're correct. >> Well,

>> Well,

>> this is a very unusual object. There is

something really important to recognize

here that usually when you deal with

scientific matters they have very little

impact on the future of humanity very

little you know if the nutrino has a

little bit of a mass doesn't really

matter you know when we discovered the

Higs boson the biggest impact was to

confirm some idea we had back in the 60s

and you know obviously that affected you

know those people who got the Nobel

Prize but most of has continued as if

nothing happened. However, here if we

ever encounter alien technology,

everything will change. It will affect

the financial markets, it will affect

politics in a major way. So my point is

simple. This is different than other

scientific matters. And the intelligence

agencies know very well that events with

very small probability have to be

considered seriously because they have

they could have major implications. Just

think about October 7th. The Israeli

intelligence agencies had a theory that

the Hamas will do nothing.

And they got data that indicated

something is going on out there, but

they dismissed it because of their

theory. Now, because as a result of

their mistake, which was clearly a

blunder, a lot of people died on both

sides for that. This could have been

avoided if they were to consider a black

swan event. An event that you put a

small probability for it happening. But

you look at anomalies in the data and

say look the implications are so huge.

We have to consider it. And you know

this idea was already considered by the

philosopher mathematician bless Pascal.

He talked about God and he said look of

course you might think that God doesn't

exist. The probability for that is small

but the implications if God exists the

implications are so huge that we have to

discuss it. That was the argument

Pascal's wager and the intelligence

agencies know that. Believe me the

Israeli intelligence agencies will not

make that mistake again. Now here comes

an object from outside the solar system

and it shows anomalies.

The scientists would say we should be as

careful as possible at talking about

anything other than a rock. Now they say

that when they know that we launched,

humanity launched a lot of space junk.

You know, a lot of technological objects

to space and we also know that there are

100 billion stars like the sun in the

Milky Way galaxy alone. Most of them

formed billions of years before the sun.

And there are billions of earth sun

analoges. Now we all believe that we

came out of a soup of chemicals. You

know that's the scientific narrative of

how human intelligence came on this

earth. And so it's quite likely that you

know we are not the first one. Sorry to

break the news. Uh Elon Musk was

probably not the most accomplished space

entrepreneur since the big bang 13.8

billion years ago. And therefore we

should consider the possibility that

things like us existed long before us.

And you can ask the question, how long

does it take our own technology, the

Voyager spacecraft that we launched out

of the solar system, how long does it

take it to move to the opposite side of

the Milky Way galaxy, you know,

thousands of light years away takes less

than a billion years. And that means

that all these civilizations that had

their history initiated billions of

years before ours could have done it.

And all we need to do as responsible

scientists is to check if among all the

rocks that come from outside of our

backyard are really rocks. Or maybe one

of these objects might be a tennis ball

that was thrown by a neighbor. And the

reason I say that is, you know, we live

at our home at our at the on earth next

to the sun. We look around us in the

cosmic street and we see a lot of houses

just like ours. There are billions of

them probably. Now, my colleagues, those

scientists who think traditionally, they

say, well, you know, microbes came to

Earth very early, therefore they must be

everywhere. So, let's define our highest

priority, searching for microbes

on other houses in our cosmic street.

And I say, good. You can do that from

the vantage point of your home. You can

look through the window and search for

microbes in your neighbor's yards, but

you would need to put $10 billion to

develop a big enough instrument that

would be able to detect the chemical

fingerprints of microbes, you know, on exoplanets.

exoplanets.

uh and think about the possibility that

there was actually there is a resident

in one of those houses. You know, that

resident might show up in your front

door at some point or you might see

an object that arrives to your backyard

or your mailbox from that res.

>> Black swan event,

>> a black swan event. Or you might see

some construction project in from a

distance that might be easier to detect

than microbes. So we should hedge our

bets. You know, we should uh invest

billions of dollars on both fronts. At

the moment, the scientific community is

willing to allocate more than $10

billion to searching for microbes,

but no recommendation is made to

allocate any federal funding to the

search for intelligence. And I say that

that is an oversight.

>> Now, they have found evidence of

microbes on Mars. Correct.

>> Well, it's not conclusive. We need to

bring materials back. It's called sample

return. And NASA has plans. We need to

bring a sample back to Earth so that in

our laboratories, we can do isotope

analysis and make sure that whatever

signatures we see on the rocks there

that do look as if they were made by

microbes because we know that Mars had

an atmosphere like the Earth. By the

way, Mars may have had life before the

Earth because it's a smaller body. So it

has a bigger surface area for its mass.

The mass of the object tells you how

much heat it can retain from the

formation process. And then the surface

area tells you how fast it can cool. And

Mars could have cooled faster than the

Earth. So life may have started on Mars

actually cuz it had rivers, lakes,

oceans of water and it could have been

actually delivered to Earth. uh you know

we might be all Martians and when Elon Musk

Musk

you know considers going to Mars um it

might be the second trip around we might

be going back to our childhood home uh

because there were tiny astronauts

inside rocks that were chipped off the

surface of Mars that arrived to Earth

and seeded the earth with life as we

know it >> pansermia

>> pansermia

>> pans yeah and and in fact you know we

can find out if we get this material

back to Earth as NASA is planning to do

hopefully within a decade. Uh then we

can make sure that these were microbes

and perhaps we can infer whether the

building blocks of these microbes are

similar to the ones we have here on

Earth. Whether the DNA RNA kind of

process took place in both places.

>> Have you ever done any research on the

structural anomalies that are on Mars,

particularly the right angles that

appear to be a square, this enormous structure?

structure?

Yeah, I've I've seen the data. It's not

conclusive, but it's intriguing because

both Mars and the moon have no

atmosphere right now. So, what happens

on Earth is that when a an object

roughly the size of a person, you know,

or smaller goes through the atmosphere,

it burns up uh creates a fireball uh

just like an atomic explosion, you know,

and actually you have an object of order

a meter colliding with Earth every year.

Every year there is an atomic explosion

size fireball in our atmosphere. It's

not reported in the news because it

happens pretty high at an altitude of 50

kilometers. So it doesn't do anything.

And you know 71% of the earth is covered

by oceans. But um uh yes uh so um these

um meteors and you know they are quite

important. Obviously, we know that the

dinosaurs 66 million years ago were

extinguished by a giant impact by an

asteroid the size of Manhattan Island.

And we are aware, by the way, that such

an impact could endanger us. And that's

why um the US Congress tasked NASA to

find all

objects that come close to earth uh with

a size bigger than a football field

about 140 m so that we avoid the fate of

the dinosaurs. So we think we are smart

we can see these rocks coming but just

imagine alien technology. It will not

follow a path that you expect if it has

some intelligence in it and that's a

risk that was never attended to. And I

wrote a white paper to the United

Nations and to the International

Astronomical Union to uh develop a

strategy for monitoring interstellar

objects, objects that come from outside

the solar system like three Atlas that

um could that show anomalies that could

potentially be technological in origin.

>> The the structures on Mars like what

what do you think when you look at them

when you see that one that looks

>> I think it's very intriguing. Both Mars

and the moon have no atmosphere. So the

objects that come into them do not burn

up as I mentioned before about Earth and

um therefore they serve as museums.

Okay. So any

uh you know space junk that might have

landed on Mars over the past two billion

years would not have burned in the

atmosphere. it would have landed and and

and we can we need to check the surface

even if we know that you know there

wasn't any civilization out there over

the past 2 billion years cuz conditions

are really harsh.

>> Um the Mars may have collected uh

technological debris from other

civilizations because it would stay on

the surface. It's just like a museum.

>> This this is an enormous structure. It's

at least they think I think they think

300 m but

>> yeah but that's not enormous because

>> quite a bit longer

>> threei Atlas the size of three atlas is

at least 5 km the in diameter and I

derived it in a paper a couple of weeks

ago because

>> we know that it's losing mass so and

from it's mostly from the side that is

facing the sun

>> and you would have gotten some recoil as

a result of that in the opposite

direction just like a rocket.

>> Mhm. And I used together with two

colleagues u 4,000 data points from 227

observatories around the earth of 3

atlas that monitored its motion across

the sky and and uh we were able to say

that the trajectory is sculpted only by

gravity. There is no evidence for this

recoil and that means that the object is

very massive and I derived a value of 33

billion tons a huge thing which if you

take solid density it means it's more

than 5 km in diameter so when you

mention a few hundred meters that's nothing

nothing >> right

>> right

>> and this object by the way was

discovered just over the past decade of

of surveying the sky you know so who

knows how much debris collected on the

surface of Mars or the moon because they

are good museums you know for and by the

way I see that as their most important

value let me just say one thing about my

um fundamental point of view >> okay

>> okay

>> you know each of us would live for about

100 years if we are lucky right that's

the kind of

>> it's pretty depressing right because

there is so much we we would like to

know and we have only

So, and you know that already tells you

that you need to be modest and humble

cuz you don't have a lot of time, right?

So, why engage in conflicts? Why reduce

the the lifespan of other people, you

know, in wars? It makes no sense all of this.

this.

>> You have limited time. Let's just use it

for something constructive. Anyway, we

are born on this rock which is just 3

millions of the mass of the sun. It's

leftover material from the formation

process of the sun. Some debris was left

over in a disc and the earth was made

out of that. That's it. And it's just a

speck of material. Nothing significant.

And this earth was moving around the sun 4.54

4.54

billion times before the Vatican even

existed. And why do I say the Vatican?

Because the Vatican put Galileo Galileo

in house arrest when he said I don't

think everything moves around the earth.

I see some moons through my telescope.

You know I see some moons uh around

Jupiter and they don't seem to revolve

around the earth. They revolve around

Jupiter. Therefore the earth is not at

the center. So they put him in house

arrest. Today they would have you know

canceled him on social media. And and my

point is

that's the first sign that you know

humans are they want to think that it's

all about them you know like and it's

not surprising but the Vatican admitted

their mistake in 1992 they issued an

official letter saying Galileo was right

>> that was 350 years after he died and you

know it's the worst public relations

affair that you can have to admit that

you were wrong for for you know like 350

years. And how could they have avoided

that? Very simply, if they said, "We

have more money than Galileo, we will be

build an even bigger telescope to figure

out the truth and we would prove him

wrong." And then they would have found

that he was right. And so then they

would have corrected course shortly after.

after.

>> They would have put more people under

house arrest. That's probably what they

would have done.

>> Yeah. So, so my point is it's really

important in cases like this or 3II

Atlas, it's really important to get as

much data as possible because once you

reach a certain threshold, you can't

shove anomalies under the carpet of

traditional thinking the way that my

colleagues do. Just to give you an

example, the first interstellar object

was oma,

okay? And

it was discovered 2017 and it was really

strange cuz uh you know the it was uh

shaped like a pancake based on the all

the data we have and um and it was

pushed away from the sun by some

mysterious force without showing any

evaporation no gas or dust around it.

What did these conservative comet

experts say? Most recently, just just in

December 2024, there was a paper of them saying

saying

it's a comet. It's a dark comet. In

other words, a comet where you can't see

the cometary tail around it. So, it's

just like experts, you know,

specializing in zebras and they go to

the zoo and they see an elephant. So

then they say, "Oh, the elephant is a

zebra without stripes." And I say, "No,

it's a completely different animal." You

know, a spacecraft would appear

differently than a rock, than a comet

because it will not have a a a cometary

tail. It could be propelled by something

else. So, so let me go back to the big

picture that I mentioned before. So we

live on this earth moving around the sun

and my colleagues in academia you know

one thing I often say is common sense is

not common in academia

because my colleagues in academia know

very well about the story of Galileo.

They know very well about the

possibility of black swans

and they say it's an extraordinary claim

to imagine something like us as smart as

we are near another star and I say no

it's an ordinary claim why would you

think it's extraordinary and by the way

if you decide not to collect evidence

not to look for it then you will not

find it so I say and you know I say

extraordinary evidence requires

extraordinary funding.

>> Um, you really need to put resources to

find the evidence. By not attending to

to this possibility, you will by not

imagining this. And by the way, I much

prefer to listen to imaginative science

fiction writers, you know, first class

>> because they're much more interesting

than secondass scientists who don't have

an imagination. And they don't they not

only have a problem with discussing

alien intelligence, they also have a

problem with whoever discusses it and

they would try to suppress that voice.

And I think it makes no sense whatsoever

because the public really cares about

it. You know, my essays on medium.com,

they get a few million readers a month.

Now, the public cares about it. The

public funds science. Therefore,

scientists should attend to this

question. Are we alone? It's the most

romantic question in science. You know,

it's like so. So, just to finish my big

picture before we get to to more.

>> So, then um you know, we live on this

planet. Everyone says, "Okay, we are not

at the center of the universe, but we

might be the only intelligent species

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need the next Copernican revolution, the

next Galilean revolution to realize that

there is a smarter kid on the block.

Okay? And it's just like the experience

of my daughters on the first day to the

kindergarten. They at home they thought

that they're at the center of the of the

universe because they had a you know

their um uh learning uh was based on a a

data set that was limited to home. It's

just like LLMs, you know, artificial

intelligence systems that learn from

their uh data sets and they had limited

environment and then when they went to

the kindergarten they realized our kids

just like them. Some are smarter. So we

are yet to mature in that sense and

that's the big picture. Now why is it so

important for the future of humanity?

Because you know the earth is not would

not exist forever. By the way, when

people talk about climate, global

climate change and so forth, they don't

realize, you know, the issue is not the

earth. The issue is humanity, the future

of humanity. And you know, the earth

itself would be very likely based on

detailed calculations, it will be

engulfed by the sun in 7.6 billion

years. And here is something that you

won't find much discussed. The moon

because of the friction on the envelope

of the sun will crash back to earth and

then the earth will move all the way to

the center of the sun. Nothing will be

left. No monument will survive

7.6 billion years ago h into the future.

Um and we have an obligation if we want

to be remembered on cosmic in cosmic

history. You know, we have an obligation

not to go to Mars. That's not really a a

great vision. You know, going to Mars is

just like, you know, you have a a group

of chimpanzees

uh living in in the jungle, you know, in

a you know, on some trees and they have

some bananas and so forth. And then one

of the chimpanzees looks far far away

into the horizon and says, "Oh, look up

there. There is another region that that

we can go to." And and it actually it's

clear that there are no bananas there.

So the same is about Mars, you know,

like Elon says, "Let's go to Mars to

save humanity." But it's actually not a

great place to be on there.

>> You have to start somewhere.

>> You have to start somewhere a planet.

>> So here is my point.

>> Okay, here's your point.

>> It makes much more sense for us to

invest in building a platform in space

that can accommodate humans, not rely on

another rock that happens to be near us

with much worse conditions. It's a

desert, no atmosphere. So, let's build a

space platform, go on it, and make sure

that it's safe for humans to live for

long periods of time. We can produce

artificial gravity by rotation. Now, you

say, well, it will cost a lot of money,

but we are spending $2.4 trillion every

year on military budgets. If we were

just to change our priorities and say we

want to build Noak's spaceship in

analogy to No Arc to save humanity

>> from the great flood or catastrophe that

will happen on Earth. You build such you

you put a fraction of this $2.4 $4

trillion a year. And I'm willing to bet

that within this century, our engineers,

architects, scientists, if you put a

level of funding of a trillion dollars a

year for the next dec several decades,

we will come up with a concept that can

accommodate humans in space much better

than Mars can.

>> Okay. Um, I want to get back to Mars

because the structures on Mars, what why

would you think that they came from

space debris rather than a prior civilization?

civilization?

>> Because uh, well, Mars,

>> let's take a look at it first. Jamie,

will you pull up those images? So,

what's fascinating about the images is

the right angles, right? Like that one

that you Yeah, that's good. Like, that's

kind of crazy, isn't it?

>> It is. And that doesn't strike me as

something that landed there from space.

It looks like a structure. It's just

it's too even.

>> Yeah. Well, it could be. It could be if

um the evolution of intelligence on Mars

was accelerated by a factor of two. You

know, that's not a big factor. Factor

two, right?

>> Meaning that intelligence arose on Mars, right?

right?

>> Uh two billion years after it formed

rather than in the case of the Earth 4.5

or so, right? And um you know one thing

I really want to do is if I ever

have a say or or go to Mars, I would

like to visit those caves

uh the lava tubes in Mars because they

are protected from the surface uh you

know bombardment by cosmic rays and all

kinds of things happening the

ultraviolet radiation. So in those caves

I want to check if there are any

prehistoric paintings or any

technological objects there. I

completely agree with you. A factor of

two is not a big deal. And you can ask

also whether on earth there was a

sophisticated technological civilization

before us that somehow, you know, either

through self-inflicted wounds or because

of a natural catastrophe disappeared.

Well, there's a lot of people that think

that, especially now that they're

looking at the pyramids and these

structures that appear to be underneath

the pyramids that they're examining.

those uh Italian scientists that have

found these structures that are up to

two kilometers deep, >> right?

>> right?

>> There's some wild stuff in Egypt.

>> Well, I want to see that data. I haven't

seen the paper itself. I just saw

reports about it. But um definitely on

Earth as well. And the problem of Earth

is that documented human history is only

8,000 years old, >> right?

>> right?

>> And 8,000 years, you know, is just a

millionth of the age of the Milky Way

galaxy. But are are you um including

things like Gobeclete in that cuz that's

11,000 plus.

>> So that Yeah. But it's not really

documented in written form, you know,

like so I'm talking about Yeah.

>> But you are correct that um our

knowledge of what happened on Earth is

really limited cuz the human species

existed for a few million years and we

have documentation at the level of

10,000 year. If you go back to that it

would be 11,000 a lot.

>> Not much more but Well, the the issue is

actual evidence, right? There's just not

a lot of evidence because a lot lot of

evidence just

>> gets swallowed by the Earth. >> Exactly.

>> Exactly.

>> Especially over long periods of time,

which is why so fascinating looking at

that thing on Mars because if there was

any kind of life that was capable of

building structures on Mars, it had to

be a long time ago. Like when was Mars

uh there was a a a bunch of theories.

Maybe you could help me. Like what do

you think is the predominant theory that

explains the lack of atmosphere on Mars?

Do you think it was an impact?

>> No. Mars is a less massive planet than

the Earth and therefore it has less

gravitational grip on its atmosphere and

as to why the atmosphere was lost. There

are various ideas. Um, you know, it may

have to do with an eruption on the sun

that removed it. Uh, or the magnetic

field, the lack of a strong enough

magnetic field to retain the atmosphere.

Um, we don't know for sure, but we know

it happened about 2 to 2 and a half

billion years ago at the middle of its life.

life.

>> Can I ask you this? At 2 and a half

billion years, uh, was it closer to the sun?

sun?

>> No, no, no. It was roughly at the same place.

place.

>> The same distance. Yeah. Okay.

>> Yeah. And um

>> and then so two and a half billion years

ago it lost its atmosphere. Yes. So if

it did have life that life would have to

so we would have to be looking at

something that's literally two plus

billion years old. The remnants of a

structure which also seems kind of

unlikely, right? It also seems like

there probably wouldn't be much there.

>> I actually did a calculation. The

biggest risk for anything on the surface

is all these impacts by asteroids. And I calculated

calculated

>> and micrometeors everything, right?

Because there's nothing stopping.

>> That's right. That's right. And I

calculate the amount of energy over a

few billion years that was deposited on

the surface of Mars is equivalent to uh

you know hundreds of Hiroshima

type nuclear explosions per square

kilometer. It's really huge

>> and because you're integrating over

billions of years. So that square

probably wouldn't be there anymore.

>> Well, there could be some relics um that

somehow stick, you know, like it depends

what it was originally, you know, the

Empire State Building, you know, even after

after

>> it was enormous and made completely out

of stone like the pyramids. Maybe that's

what would be left of it.

>> Maybe. I think we should be definitely

open-minded and guided by evidence.

That's the key.

>> Well, that's what's interesting is

because that is evidence.

>> That is evidence. We should go there,

>> you know, clear the dust and see if it's

just a rock that happened to be shaped

like that. I mean, you could have rocks

that are shaped like that.

>> Let's bring it back to this. Is it three

AI atlas? Is that

>> three eye atlas?

>> Three eye atlas.

>> So three means it's the third object

identified by survey telescopes over the

past 8 years. Uh we didn't have the

technology before that. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm.

>> And so we just don't know how much

traffic there is of interest.

>> We missed a lot. So we had you know the

first survey telescope that found Mua

was panar in Hawaii and the reason it

was constructed is because the US

Congress tasked NASA to find 90% of all

objects bigger than a football field

passing close to earth. These are

potential killer asteroids that can

destroy a region on earth. We want to

protect the earth. So we want to know

about them. and they asked NASA and the

National Science Foundation to search

you know to build observatories that

will search for such objects and that's

why pan stars was established and then

it saw a nearear object so they flagged

it for that reason and they realized

it's moving too fast to be bound by

gravity to the sun and that was um MUA

and then it looks looked weird now I had

no agenda I was working on cosmology at

the time you I was working on black

holes. I was a founding director of the

black hole initiative at Harvard and

Steven Hawking head Passover at my home

in 2016 and this object was discovered a

year later. And um um I said well okay

that's interesting but it has anomalies

you know the amount of brightness coming

from it by reflecting sunlight changes

by a factor of 10 as it's tumbling.

That's really strange. Uh, and I started

getting more and more into the anomalies

and I

>> So you had no pre previous to that you

had no real connection to the UAP

phenomenon and nothing zero. So you're

just basing entirely on the data that

you were getting from

>> Yeah. And

>> how do you say it? Omua. >> Omoa.

>> Omoa.

>> Amua Mua.

>> And you know I am driven by curiosity.

I'm no different than the the kid that I

was. You know, I grew up on a farm and

people who knew me back then say I

didn't change. I'm not willing to change

what I say just for political benefit or

for just to be liked. But I don't have

any social media accounts. I don't care

about that. But when something

>> Thank God, >> somebody.

>> somebody.

>> Well, it's thanks to my wife, not God.

My wife said you should not have any

footprint on. So, she's really wise.

>> She's wise.

>> And that was a decade ago.

>> Wow. She She spotted the problem real early.

early.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> This episode is brought to you by

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>> And now with AI, we're talking about

social media on steroids. Yeah, it's

really bad. By the way, the main problem

with social with um AI that I see

>> is not so much that,

you know, they will bring calamity on

their own. It's that they would drive

people to do crazy stuff. So they will

manipulate the human mind in ways that

will make us the robots. You know, it

will not need access to the physical

world. It will control the minds of

people in a way that will create a lot

of damage. And we see that already

happening with with AI

on social media

>> and nobody is attending to that. And the

question is, how do we suppress the

amazing polarization that we see in

society where, you know, bullets are

being shot? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh, and I I really worry about it cuz

and and so humans may actually bring

their own doom by self-inflicted wounds

because AI manipulates their mind.

>> I think you're right. I think in that

regard, I think people need to stop

using it. I really do. I just think it's

not good for them.

>> That's what I'm doing.

>> I just think

>> I'm not using AI at all. use it

sometimes, but I I I

treat it like a glass of wine. Like

don't drink wine all day.

>> You know, I'm I'm working with students

and every now and then a student

delivers a paper to me to look at and I

realize some of the references do not

exist because I know the literature. You

know that I ask the student, "What is

this? I've never heard about this

paper." And the student says, "Oh,

sorry." And it turns out the AI just

took names of authors and fake

reference. And the same thing within the

paper itself. There are statements that

are clearly because the student was

using AI. I'm really worried about that

because the young people are not reading.

reading.

>> They don't read history. So they go to

protests that make no sense, >> right?

>> right?

>> They don't and people say, "Oh, that

that is always the useful thing to do."

But no, no, no. This one is triggered by

misinformation. It's triggered lack and

it's organized. Exactly. And so

>> that's one thing but then

>> they don't go to primary sources to

figure out the truth. They don't have

critical thinking. And I really feel

that this is a big risk because you know

AI is getting more intelligent but but

humans that use AI are getting dumber >> right

>> right

>> they don't think. So I think that the

you know the AI would supersede the

cognitive abilities of humans sooner

than expected because humans are getting

dumber. I mean I see that

>> I I I don't think people are necessarily

getting dumber but I think they're

getting lazy because of this. I think

the humanity is exactly the same. I

think they need to be taught how to use it.

it.

>> Well I get a lot of emails saying I

collaborated with my favorite AI app.

>> Mhm. and here is what it said and

>> yeah but I think we need to teach people

how to use it because it's a new thing

and that that I think that's where a lot

of the problem comes from that people

are using it in in a substitution for learning

learning

>> you know and but you instead can learn

from it

>> but you've got to use it in that way so

there are two existential risk in our

future one is artificial intelligence AI

the second one is alien and intelligence

also AI.

>> And the question is which one would

arrive first?

>> Let's let's go back to I don't want one

more time. Amua.

>> Okay, I don't want to screw it up.

>> Um how large was that?

>> That was was the size of a football field

field

>> of all the 100 meters.

>> Small in comparison to three eye atlas.

>> Oh yeah, that's my point. That three eye

atlas is a million times more massive at

least a million times more massive than

Mua. And I immediately as it was

discovered, you know, it was July 1st

and my wife asked me to go on vacation

to Aruba 2 days later. And as I was

going on the plane and as I arrived

there, I realized, wait, that doesn't

make sense cuz we should have seen

millions of omuamas before we saw this

one, you know, it's so big. And I also

realized there is not enough rocky

material per unit volume in interstellar

space to deliver such a giant rock into

the inner solar system within a period

of a decade. You would expect it at the

very optimistic scenario where you

package all the material into objects

that are 5 km in diameter. You would

imagine once per 10,000 years. So I

wrote immediately a scientific paper. My

wife was not happy that you know on our

vacation I was sitting on my computer

but I just couldn't resist it. And by

the way this paper I submitted for

publication that was July 3rd or

something. Um and um then the editor

said, "Oh, the paper is fine, but you

have a concluding sentence at the end

where you say, well, unless the object

is smaller than estimated,

maybe it was targeting the inner

source." That was my solution to say you

know one way out of this dilemma of why

is it so big is if it was targeting the

inner solar system by design and indeed

the trajectory is aligned with the plane

of the planets around the sun to within

5° the chance for that at random is 1 in

500 okay and it's moving in a retrograde

trajectory opposite to the motion of the

planets which is ideal for it to release

mini probes that will get into the

planets it gets close to Mars it gets

close to Jupiter. It goes on the

opposite side of the sun uh relative to

Earth when it's closest to the sun. And

that's the time when a spacecraft could

do a maneuver to take advantage of the

sun's gravitational assist. You know,

all of these are interesting indications

that may imply that some intelligence

designed the trajectory. So I had one

sentence at the end of the paper saying

maybe the trajectory was designed and

the editor said no no no the paper will

not get published unless you remove that sentence.

sentence. >> Wow.

>> Wow.

>> So now when you when you listen to comet

experts that say well this claim or that

claim was never published in a

peer-review journal. Guess what? they

are the editors or the reviewers who are blocking

blocking

the discussion on possibilities and I

think it's inappropriate especially in

the case of alien technology because

it's could be a black swan event. It

could be something that affects the

future of humanity and we if we behave

you know very conservatively we might

not last very long.

>> Well, it's also arrogant. It's

>> it's arrogant.

>> Yeah. This object is

how it shows that there's no iron.

>> Oh no. So yeah. So then the composition

of the plume of gas.

>> So this is this is before you knew about

the composition that you wrote this paper.

paper. >> Exactly.

>> Exactly.

>> So as time is going on, you are being

shown to be correct.

>> Well, we found more more anomalies.

>> More anomalies. But this is not a normal thing.

thing.

>> Not a normal thing. So, for one thing,

uh there was a glow that looks like an

extended feature and everyone said, "Oh,

that's a tail. That's the signature of a

comet." And I said, "Wait a minute. It

it's pointing towards the sun. It's not

pointing away from the sun." Usually,

cometary tails are made of dust and gas,

which is pushed back away from the sun

by the radiation and the solar wind, you

know. Um, and so this one was pointed

towards the sun, not away from the sun.

And the question is why? And um actually

I calculated that you know it appeared

very clearly in the sharpest image we

had from the Hubble Space Telescope

which showed an elongation by a factor

of two towards the sun but we were

looking at it like a cigar. We were

looking almost along the cigar long axis

uh within 10° of the object sun axis. So

we were looking almost edge on

>> and I calculate if you were to correct

for that this would be a feature that is

10 times longer than it is wide you know

and and that means it's like a jet so

the object was had a jet in front of it

towards the sun. The question is why?

And you know the comet experts ignored

it and just said well you know comets

are strange you know the who knows. Um

but my point is this is a blind date of

in interstellar proportions. And my

advice on blind dates is not to

speak or say what you think this is but

to observe the other side. You know the

best way to respond to a blind date is

to observe the other side. Don't speak.

Just observe the other side because it

may be different than what you think.

And maybe you know on one of the dates

you will have a serial killer

>> on the other side.

>> Oh boy. Now um explain if you could how

we know the composition of this thing.

So we can figure out composition of a

plume of gas uh by um taking a spectrum

of it which means you basically have

some kind of a prism that breaks you

know that light with different

wavelengths is bent at different angles

and so you spread the light into the

different colors and if you do that you

you can find the uh fingerprints the

spectral fingerprints of specific atoms

or molecules because each atom or

molecule has transitions. I I actually

teach I taught it just two days ago in a

class that I teach uh that is mandatory

obligatory at the Harvard astronomy

department where I was chair for a

decade you know like between 2011 2020.

So this is the mandatory class and I I

just taught how you know spectral lines

emitted by atoms and molecules just two

days ago. So this is a very well-known

thing and we know the the wavelengths of

those and and we use them to identify

the composition uh you know we know

which atoms produced these spectral

lines the fingerprints it's just like

fingerprints okay and and so what was

found you know and that's by multiple

teams there are three papers on that we found

found

nickel a lot of nickel but no very

little iron at first no iron whatsoever

Now usually in all the comets in the

past from the solar system and also from

interstellar space there is one comet

Borisov that was found. It's the second

interstellar object which looked just

like a familiar comet. I had nothing to

say about that one. It looked like a

comet behaved like a comet. It was a

comet but it had similar abundances of

nickel and iron. The only place where we

found before much more nickel than iron

is in alloys that we produce

industrially. For example, uh for

aerospace applications, uh nickel alloys

have a lot of nickel, no iron. So maybe

the skin of this object is is

industrially produced. That's that was

my suggestion. But what the authors of

these papers said is maybe nature is

capable of going through the same

chemical pathway of producing nickel

without iron as we do in our industries.

So they made a conjecture that this

carbonil pathway which is well known in

the industry world uh carbonil is the

pathway the name of the pathway they

said well maybe this carbon pathway

happens in nature uh we have never seen

it before but that is their explanation.

>> H um is it possible that nature could

construct some sort of a nickel alloy?

>> No it's not an alloy it's just that some

somehow the nickel gets released the

iron gets suppressed. Nobody would argue

that, you know, you could sort of

separate nickel from iron because

they're produced together in exploding

stars, right? And in fact, the

composition of the sun has more iron

than nickel, 10 times more by by mass.

And so, um, we just don't know as in the

case of this jet that I was mentioning,

which recently turned into a tail now,

uh, over the month of September. And

also you know why was it changing

structure is not clear. There are lots

of anomalies. There was also a very

negative polarization of the light. And

also two weeks ago I realized the

arrival direction of 3 Atlas was within

nine degrees of the WOW signal that was

detected in 1977

>> which was an enigmatic powerful radio

signal that definitely came from outside

of this earth. We don't know from where

it was coming from a source that was

approaching the sun and the chance of it

aligning with the arrival direction of

three Atlas is 0.6%.

And I just said well that's interesting

because three Atlas was at the distance

of three light days uh from the earth at

that time you know and um uh you just

need about the output of a nuclear

reactor on earth a gigawatt or so to

produce such a radio signal. By the way

Voyager right as of now is one light day

away from earth. Just think about it.

One light day our

>> you know the farthest spacecraft we ever

launched is one light day away and the

size of the Milky Way galaxy we are

talking about tens of thousands of light

years. So one day out of tens of

thousands of years, that's the

difference between the distance that we

managed to breach so far compared to

another civilization that may have sent

something to our backyard.

>> Right now, have we ever observed things

in the past that have changed their tail

like this?

>> So there are

>> from a jet to a tail. This is called an

anti-ale when it's pointing towards the

sun. There were optical illusions in a

situation where you know the there is a

tail which is pushed away from the sun

by radiation and the solar wind. Mhm.

>> But you are observing it as the Earth

goes through the orbital plane of of of

this uh object of this comet and you are

seeing it from a perspective that it

looks as if the tail is pointed at the

sun but in fact it's it's just a

perspective thing. It's a optical

illusion and there were cases like that

that that was seen but as far as I know

none seen in a situation where it's

clear and in three Atlas it was very far

from the sun and earth and we saw it

towards the sun there cannot be an

optical illusion under the circumstances

because it was approaching both the

earth and the sun roughly at the same

direction so I'm not aware of another

but most importantly you should look at

the response of the comet expert

community to that anomaly. They say,

"Well, comets are strange. We don't

know. Maybe it's um these are dust

particles that are very big, so they

don't get pushed back much." But then

how do you scatter sunlight? Usually you

need particles that have a size of the

order of the wavelength of the light

that is being scattered. That's the most

efficient process. And when you have

dust particles, the ones that have you

know sub micrometer uh dimensions are

dominating the scattering of sunlight.

So why in this case you will have only

big ones that are not getting pushed back.

back.

It could be fragments of ice that are

scattering the sunlight that have

nothing to do with dust. But those

fragments of ice get evaporated and so

they don't have enough time to turn

back. You know, I wrote two papers on

that trying to explain it. But my point

is many scientists are not curious. You

you would find it surprising. Why are

they not curious? Why are they not

willing to consider alternative

explanations to what is commonly

thought? And it's because they're afraid

of taking any risk, you know, and uh I

came from a background where I worked in

cosmology trying to figure out puzzles

like most of the matter in the universe

is of a substance that we don't know

what it is. You know, we we call it dark

matter. It's just to to reflect our

ignorance. You know, Nobel prizes were

awarded for people who quantified how

much dark matter there is, how much dark

energy there is. These are constituents

whose nature is unknown. And just think

about it, giving a Nobel Prize to people

who just said how ignorant we are. We

don't know what these things are.

Ordinary matter makes just 5% of all the

matter in the universe. And in this

culture of cosmology when you know I

worked in for three decades

um it was you know completely common to

propose ideas to explain anomalies. I

mean the dark matter is an anomaly you

don't know what it is

>> and people were rewarded for coming up

with ideas imaginative ideas that can be

tested experimentally. That's the way

you make progress. You don't know

something. you are putting on the table

possibilities and then you motivate

observers or experimentalists to figure

out which one is the correct one and

that was the culture and I think of it

as a culture of chess players. >> Okay.

>> Okay.

>> Okay. trying to figure out things when I

get to work on comets, you know,

asteroids, these objects, and consider

imaginative possibilities to explain

their anomalies the way I did in the

context of cosmology. I encounter,

you know, a a a culture of mud wrestlers.

wrestlers.

>> Mud wrestlers.

>> It's different from chess players,

>> right? Um, and you know, I don't want to

mud wrestle. I don't want to get dirty.

I don't respond to I learned my lesson

with Omua Mua. I don't respond to those

people because once we collect I just

want as much evidence as possible so

that they would not be able to shove the

anomalies under the carpet of

traditional thinking. That's my

motivation. So I'm inspiring a debate

right now and there is a huge interest

in that debate

so that we will collect as much data as

possible so that by the end of the day

we'll figure out what our dating partner

is. If it happens to be a rock you know

on the other side of the table you go on

a date and you see a rock so be it. If

it's something else that has huge implications,

implications, >> right?

>> right?

>> And therefore, we should consider that

possibility seriously and just collect

as much data as possible. What is it

about your field in particular that you

think motivates mudslinging?

like why why are they averse to risk and

why do they not just why are they not

just averse to risk but why are they

attacking you for proposing what seems

to me to be a reasonable alternative

considering the possibilities given all

the planets and stars that we know are

out there

>> well I got a hint uh for the answer to

your question when I wrote the first

paper on MUA >> right

>> right

>> I suggested it might be technological

>> right and the paper got accepted for

publication within three days record.

The reviewer said this is a great idea

because it's consistent with all the

data we have. It's it's most likely a

flat object and therefore it could be

pushed by reflecting sunlight which was

my proposal.

Then the media came to my door

and people started asking me a lot of

questions. I got you know I I got well

known at that point the attacks the

personal attacks started. So it's

jealousy. Yeah it's um and you know but

I can tell you that I learned my lesson.

>> You can't respond.

>> I just ignore it.

>> And let me give you a few anecdotes of

what happened to me this week. Just this week.

week.

>> Okay. Okay. >> Please.

>> Please.

>> Tomorrow I'm supposed to go to

California. There is a NASCAR car race

where one of the racers decided to put

my image with three Atlas with the

Galileo project that I'm leading on his

car. So, let me show you some images.

>> Yeah, show me the image cuz what is the

current best image of three Atlas?

>> Oh, we will get to that. So, here you

see the car and he promised to let me

drive it during the just before the race.

race.

>> Who is this guy? Uh, Alex

>> Kevin Harvick.

>> No, Kevin Harvick. That's the name of

the driver's name.

>> Alex Malik.

>> Yeah. And he contacted me.

>> Yeah. He's just a big fan.

>> Oh, that's cool.

>> Uh, and I will go there.

>> Smart of him, right? Cuz that's

definitely going to get you a lot of attention.

attention.

>> Yeah. So, he just sent it to me this

morning that they This is in the shop

where they put all these things on it.

And tomorrow I'm going to drive it.

>> What is Comet Lemon in the back?

>> Oh, that's just another Comet. So he

>> So he's like a comet fan in this guy.

>> By the way, I told him that um the

fastest moving race car is 600 times

slower than 3 Atlas 600 times. So you

know it's a compliment to me to be

featured on his car, but 3A Atlas

doesn't care much cuz it's already

moving 600 times faster than his car can

move, you know. But let's uh move.

>> That is cool, though. So this is tomorrow.

tomorrow.

>> That image though, that's you with a

spinning world, right? That's the globe

>> and my name. So the car is called Avi

now. Um >> nice.

>> nice.

>> Yeah. Uh can we move to the next image?

I'll show you another.

>> Very excited about this. I like it.

>> Yeah. Um so this is an image taken two

days ago in my office at Harvard. I

again I was contacted out of the blue by

an artist, a very distinguished artist,

accomplished named Greg Wyatt uh in New

York City who donated two sculptures

made of bronze of Galileo. You see them

in the front. They were delivered to my

office just a few days ago. And in the

background, you see watercolors that he

made. Each of them, there are 51 of them

that he don all of these he donated to

me at no cost. He wants it to be

displayed on in my office because these

watercolors display uh famous scientists

p that pioneered new frontiers. and uh

he includes a statement from each of

these scientists which are really

educational for the students and postocs

that work with me. I should tell you I

got an email from a US Air Force pilot.

Uh his daughter Ariana

said to him, he he wrote me an email and

said, "Because of you, my daughter wants

to become a scientist now. She saw you

on television and now she only speaks

about aliens."

You know, two days later, I speak with a

reporter from the London Times and he

puts out his report and says, "I read

the report for half an hour to my kids

and they told me they want to become scientists."

scientists."

And you know, this is a another thing

that there are two things that are

missed by my colleagues. One, it's an

opportunity to excite the the kids to

get into science. You know that's an

amazing I mean when we discovered the

Higs boson you know it was an important

confirmation of an idea that came in the

60s the Nobel Prize was awarded but I

bet you that the daughter Ariana the

daughter of the US Air Force pilot

>> would not be inspired to become a

scientist because it's very abstract

here the there is a connection. So

that's one thing that is missed and of

course the second one is here is a

subject that the public cares about and

the public funds science so we should

attend to that

>> of course

>> it's our obligation as scientists course

why you know I always since I started

science which was by chance by the way I

wanted always to become a philosopher

but circumstances led me because I led a

project that was funded by the Star Wars

initiative of President Rean it was the

first international project and then

that brought me into astrophysics

because I was offered a position at

Princeton at the Institute for Advanced

Study where Einstein was a faculty a few

decades earlier. So it all it was an

arranged marriage

and but I felt that it's even though

it's an arranged marriage, I'm I'm

married to my true love because I can

address philosophical questions using

the scientific method and I recognize

things that my colleagues do not because

I'm different. You know, I'm I'm just But

But

>> well, you're willing to take chances.

>> It's not just that.

>> Not even chances. You're willing to

propose things that might be ridiculed.

>> Well, I think about the big picture. You

know, the one thing that I mentioned in

my book, Extraterrestrial, is on the

first day of school, I showed up to the

class and I saw the kids jumping up and

down on the tables in the classroom and

I looked at them and I said, "Does it

does it really make sense to jump up and

down? like what are they trying to

accomplish by doing that? Like and then

the teacher came in uh and looked at

everyone jumping and said, "Quiet down.

Look at Avi. He's so well behaved. You

should all behave like him." And I

wanted to tell her I'm not well behaved.

You know, this was not the reason why I

didn't jump up and down. I was just

trying to figure out why they are

jumping up and down. And if it made

sense, I would jump up and down. I don't

care about your rules. And that pretty

much defines me, you know, I I'm thinking

thinking

>> about the big picture and if my

colleagues are doing something that

doesn't make sense,

>> I don't give a damn.

>> So, let me ask you this. Once the

understanding of the composition of

three Atlas, once that was out and

people recognized that this is a very

unusual object, have more people started

to consider what you're saying?

>> Yeah, I get a lot of people sending me

in the academic world. also in the

academic world. Those are people that

keep that that say we are inspired by

what you're doing. You know, they keep

sending me emails saying keep doing it.

It's an inspiration to all of us.

>> But this is privately. Has anybody

publicly supported you?

>> So the young you have to understand the

biggest damage of this harassment or

scrutiny or ridicule or personal

attacks. I don't care about it. You

know, my my skin is by now titanium. I I

don't really feel much. The issue is

really that it and that's the purpose of

these attacks is they want to discourage

>> others young people from deviating from

the beaten path. So they keep the herd

in a tight configuration. And the risk

from that is you know one suggestion that was very popular when I started

that was very popular when I started astrophysics you know like um half a

astrophysics you know like um half a century ago. By the way I lived

century ago. By the way I lived throughout half of modern physics

throughout half of modern physics roughly half of modern physics. So half

roughly half of modern physics. So half a century ago it was thought that there

a century ago it was thought that there is a symmetry of nature called super

is a symmetry of nature called super symmetry and that the dark matter is the

symmetry and that the dark matter is the lightest particle associated with that

lightest particle associated with that symmetry because it's stable

symmetry because it's stable >> and everyone said that must be right and

>> and everyone said that must be right and lots of castles were built on this

lots of castles were built on this foundation including string theory uh

foundation including string theory uh that was assuming this to be true and

that was assuming this to be true and then the large hadron collider at CERN

then the large hadron collider at CERN was built for $10 billion

was built for $10 billion search for super symmetry and didn't

search for super symmetry and didn't find it. Now what is the lesson? Yes, it

find it. Now what is the lesson? Yes, it was a beautiful idea

was a beautiful idea and sometimes nature is not what we

and sometimes nature is not what we think it is. Okay, so we should not uh

think it is. Okay, so we should not uh ridicule ideas that are different than

ridicule ideas that are different than what the mainstream is doing because the

what the mainstream is doing because the mainstream makes mistakes. This was a I

mainstream makes mistakes. This was a I mean a lot of money and effort went to

mean a lot of money and effort went to that that thousands of papers basing

that that thousands of papers basing their analysis or or mathematical

their analysis or or mathematical constructions on super symmetry

constructions on super symmetry >> and a lot of people are unwilling to

>> and a lot of people are unwilling to abandon that as well. Right.

abandon that as well. Right. >> Yeah. But the point is if you allow

>> Yeah. But the point is if you allow people to follow not just the beaten

people to follow not just the beaten path but other paths you have a better

path but other paths you have a better chance of discovering something new

chance of discovering something new because we cannot

because we cannot >> I mean Einstein made you know three

>> I mean Einstein made you know three mistakes between 1935 and 1940. He said

mistakes between 1935 and 1940. He said black holes probably do not exist. He

black holes probably do not exist. He said gravitational waves probably do not

said gravitational waves probably do not exist. And he said quantum mechanics

exist. And he said quantum mechanics doesn't have spooky action at a

doesn't have spooky action at a distance. And all three received Nobel

distance. And all three received Nobel prizes for the teams that proved him

prizes for the teams that proved him wrong.

wrong. Those are Nobel prizes from the past

Those are Nobel prizes from the past decade. Three teams, you know, doing

decade. Three teams, you know, doing different types of experiments and

different types of experiments and observations. And but did Einstein was

observations. And but did Einstein was wrong to assume

wrong to assume uh to make assumptions or or claims that

uh to make assumptions or or claims that turned out to be wrong? No. Because

turned out to be wrong? No. Because that's the nature of working at the

that's the nature of working at the frontier. You make mistakes every now

frontier. You make mistakes every now and then. You know, you might be right

and then. You know, you might be right and that will be a breakthrough. But you

and that will be a breakthrough. But you cannot have breakthroughs without taking

cannot have breakthroughs without taking risks. And it's really I mean the whole

risks. And it's really I mean the whole idea of tenure in academia was based on

idea of tenure in academia was based on on on the proposition that you want

on on the proposition that you want people to take risks so that they don't

people to take risks so that they don't have job insecurity. don't worry about

have job insecurity. don't worry about their so what these zealots I call them

their so what these zealots I call them say is you know we don't want people to

say is you know we don't want people to deviate from the beaten path because we

deviate from the beaten path because we base our stature we base our honors

base our stature we base our honors awards and so forth on past knowledge we

awards and so forth on past knowledge we don't want new knowledge unless it's

don't want new knowledge unless it's proven beyond any doubt but how would it

proven beyond any doubt but how would it be proven if you keep ridiculing

be proven if you keep ridiculing anything different you know we those

anything different you know we those expert most of the scientific community

expert most of the scientific community thought that rocks cannot fall from the

thought that rocks cannot fall from the sky. And then in 1803 there was a meteor

sky. And then in 1803 there was a meteor shower in Leazge and Bio a French

shower in Leazge and Bio a French physicist realized it's real. There are

physicist realized it's real. There are rocks falling from the sky. Now all my

rocks falling from the sky. Now all my colleagues say there could be only rocks

colleagues say there could be only rocks in the sky. You know we know that we

in the sky. You know we know that we launched some spacecraft but you know

launched some spacecraft but you know we're probably alone. Uh and it doesn't

we're probably alone. Uh and it doesn't make sense. Um, but let me just mention

make sense. Um, but let me just mention a few other uh anecdotes from the past

a few other uh anecdotes from the past week because I didn't really finish. So,

week because I didn't really finish. So, Jamie, can you uh show the next one?

>> What is it? >> This one is about Sphere in Las Vegas.

>> This one is about Sphere in Las Vegas. As you know, it's the uh the most

As you know, it's the uh the most impressive uh venue for entertainment in

impressive uh venue for entertainment in the world.

the world. >> Have you been there? Have you seen a

>> Have you been there? Have you seen a show there?

show there? >> I'll tell you. I not only I've been I've

>> I'll tell you. I not only I've been I've been to the top of the sphere which is

been to the top of the sphere which is like 120 m high. Here you see me from

like 120 m high. Here you see me from inside the sphere. This is the exosphere

inside the sphere. This is the exosphere by the way. It's covered with LED

by the way. It's covered with LED displays. We went all the way to the

displays. We went all the way to the top. Why? Because a year ago

top. Why? Because a year ago um two very distinguished visitors came

um two very distinguished visitors came to the front door of my home. By the

to the front door of my home. By the way, lots of interesting people show up

way, lots of interesting people show up at my uh front door. This was Jim Dolan.

at my uh front door. This was Jim Dolan. uh who owns the Medicine Square Garden

uh who owns the Medicine Square Garden as you know and also the Sphere um and

as you know and also the Sphere um and Jane Rosental the CEO of Tribeca

Jane Rosental the CEO of Tribeca Enterprises and they made me an offer

Enterprises and they made me an offer that I cannot refuse and they said would

that I cannot refuse and they said would you be able to put a Galileo project

you be able to put a Galileo project observatory I'm leading the Galileo

observatory I'm leading the Galileo project to look for unusual objects

project to look for unusual objects around the earth and they said could you

around the earth and they said could you build an observatory on top of the

build an observatory on top of the sphere because you know Jim Dolan really

sphere because you know Jim Dolan really is interested in science and especially

is interested in science and especially in finding you know whether there is

in finding you know whether there is some alien intelligence out there. Uh

some alien intelligence out there. Uh and I said of course I will be

and I said of course I will be delighted. So that was September 2024

delighted. So that was September 2024 one year after the sphere was opened

one year after the sphere was opened with a U2 concert as you may know. I

with a U2 concert as you may know. I don't know if you've been there.

don't know if you've been there. >> I've been there for the UFC.

>> I've been there for the UFC. >> Oh yeah. UFC. Exactly.

>> Oh yeah. UFC. Exactly. >> So anyway,

>> So anyway, >> I was there just a few months ago with

>> I was there just a few months ago with my research team. We went all the way to

my research team. We went all the way to the top and installed, as you can see

the top and installed, as you can see here, an array of infrared cameras that

here, an array of infrared cameras that monitors the entire sky above Vegas at

monitors the entire sky above Vegas at all times. So, you can see some of these

all times. So, you can see some of these images show the landscape of Vegas in

images show the landscape of Vegas in the background. It's like a freckle,

the background. It's like a freckle, >> you know, on top of the sphere, the

>> you know, on top of the sphere, the exosphere, which is the biggest display

exosphere, which is the biggest display on Earth, you know, but we measured that

on Earth, you know, but we measured that there is not much light pollution

there is not much light pollution actually and we can operate this

actually and we can operate this observatory. We also put a an array of

observatory. We also put a an array of uh visible light cameras there and it's

uh visible light cameras there and it's operating. Okay. And we hope to see a

operating. Okay. And we hope to see a few million objects over the sky of

few million objects over the sky of Vegas and decide whether any of them has

Vegas and decide whether any of them has a performance that deviates from the

a performance that deviates from the envelope of humanmade technologies. How

envelope of humanmade technologies. How do we do that? We we have the sphere as

do we do that? We we have the sphere as one point but then we put two copies of

one point but then we put two copies of that that observatory uh 10 km away on a

that that observatory uh 10 km away on a triangle and um uh that allows us to

triangle and um uh that allows us to look at objects in the sky from

look at objects in the sky from different directions just like we have

different directions just like we have two eyes so we can gauge the distance.

two eyes so we can gauge the distance. So here we have three eyes looking at

So here we have three eyes looking at the sky above Vegas and we can tell the

the sky above Vegas and we can tell the distance, the velocity, the acceleration

distance, the velocity, the acceleration of objects and ask whether they are

of objects and ask whether they are lying within the performance envelopes

lying within the performance envelopes of humanmade objects and that would be

of humanmade objects and that would be amazing. It's very exciting. I see that

amazing. It's very exciting. I see that also as an opportunity to communicate to

also as an opportunity to communicate to the public the excitement about science.

the public the excitement about science. That's what Jim Dolan and Jane Rosenal

That's what Jim Dolan and Jane Rosenal really wanted to deliver. And u I'm

really wanted to deliver. And u I'm hoping uh that we will find something

hoping uh that we will find something really anomalous you know because as we

really anomalous you know because as we know the uh intelligence agencies are

know the uh intelligence agencies are reporting to the US Congress about

reporting to the US Congress about objects they cannot identify and you

objects they cannot identify and you know that could be two things they're

know that could be two things they're getting you know the defense budget for

getting you know the defense budget for 2026 is a trillion dollars. Okay if they

2026 is a trillion dollars. Okay if they tell us that with a trillion dollars

tell us that with a trillion dollars there are still objects they cannot

there are still objects they cannot identify above the US they're not doing

identify above the US they're not doing their job. they're not doing their job

their job. they're not doing their job and we should be worried who sent these

and we should be worried who sent these objects. Could it be adversarial

objects. Could it be adversarial nations? Okay, that's one possibility

nations? Okay, that's one possibility which has to do with national security.

which has to do with national security. The second possibility is that it's

The second possibility is that it's maybe something from outside of this

maybe something from outside of this earth

earth which would be even more significant.

which would be even more significant. So either way, we need to figure this

So either way, we need to figure this out. And I don't think I'm wasting my

out. And I don't think I'm wasting my time leading the Galileo project to

time leading the Galileo project to figure out whether there are anomalies,

figure out whether there are anomalies, you know, that go beyond humanmade

you know, that go beyond humanmade technologies because if it turns out

technologies because if it turns out that all the objects are humanmade, I

that all the objects are humanmade, I will be happy to deliver the set of

will be happy to deliver the set of sensors we developed with the machine

sensors we developed with the machine learning software that we developed to

learning software that we developed to the department of war so that they can

the department of war so that they can employ it for national security

employ it for national security purposes. So my time was not wasted as a

purposes. So my time was not wasted as a scientist. I'm doing something useful to

scientist. I'm doing something useful to society. The department of war can use

society. The department of war can use it. Have no problem. Everything made by

it. Have no problem. Everything made by humans, by the way, is boring as far as

humans, by the way, is boring as far as I'm concerned. I want to see something

I'm concerned. I want to see something from outside the solar system, which is

from outside the solar system, which is not what the government should be about.

not what the government should be about. The government should worry about

The government should worry about national security, not about what lies

national security, not about what lies outside the solar system. That's my job

outside the solar system. That's my job definition as an astrophysicist. Okay.

definition as an astrophysicist. Okay. And um so uh I feel that this is worthy

And um so uh I feel that this is worthy pursuing. But the Galileo project is

pursuing. But the Galileo project is really the first organized project that

really the first organized project that constructed a reliable set of sensors in

constructed a reliable set of sensors in an observatory configuration that does

an observatory configuration that does systematic study of the sky to collect

systematic study of the sky to collect millions of objects in the sky per year.

millions of objects in the sky per year. We have three observatories. One in Las

We have three observatories. One in Las Vegas as I mentioned and by the way this

Vegas as I mentioned and by the way this is the first time it's mentioned

is the first time it's mentioned publicly. So uh

publicly. So uh >> that's amazing. and another one at um in

>> that's amazing. and another one at um in Massachusetts and a third one in

Massachusetts and a third one in Pennsylvania. They were all funded by

Pennsylvania. They were all funded by people who approached me and said, "Here

people who approached me and said, "Here is the money."

is the money." >> Let me ask you this. If it wasn't for

>> Let me ask you this. If it wasn't for those, how many observatories are

those, how many observatories are looking for objects that are not from

looking for objects that are not from this earth? Like is is that very rare?

this earth? Like is is that very rare? None.

None. >> Well, there are some teams that are, you

>> Well, there are some teams that are, you know, doing it making a trip to to

know, doing it making a trip to to collect some data. There is of course

collect some data. There is of course >> there's not constant observation

>> there's not constant observation >> of scientific quality data. No,

>> of scientific quality data. No, >> that's crazy.

>> that's crazy. >> That's crazy. That's what I'm saying.

>> That's crazy. That's what I'm saying. >> That's craziness.

>> That's craziness. >> And by the way, by the way, um I gave a

>> And by the way, by the way, um I gave a briefing to the US Congress on May 1st

briefing to the US Congress on May 1st uh 2025 and uh Congresswoman Anna

uh 2025 and uh Congresswoman Anna Paulina Luna was there and um and she

Paulina Luna was there and um and she was very excited about the work we're

was very excited about the work we're doing. Uh but the day before that um I

doing. Uh but the day before that um I visited um an office in the Pentagon

visited um an office in the Pentagon that is called the old domain anomaly

that is called the old domain anomaly resolution office and I asked them you

resolution office and I asked them you know you looked into an uh all these

know you looked into an uh all these unidentified objects reported in the

unidentified objects reported in the past by military personnel

past by military personnel did anything trigger your attention as

did anything trigger your attention as something truly anomalous

something truly anomalous and they said not really. There are some

and they said not really. There are some uh you know there are some reports uh by

uh you know there are some reports uh by FBI agents that s really crazy stuff but

FBI agents that s really crazy stuff but we don't have any data from instruments

we don't have any data from instruments and this is an office within the

and this is an office within the Pentagon

Pentagon which is funded to figure out things and

which is funded to figure out things and so obviously what they might want to do

so obviously what they might want to do is imitate the Galileo project that I'm

is imitate the Galileo project that I'm leading but you would think that it

leading but you would think that it would be sort of the vested interest of

would be sort of the vested interest of government you know to invest in

government you know to invest in research related to that, which is what

research related to that, which is what the Galo project is doing.

the Galo project is doing. >> Well, here's the thing. I would have

>> Well, here's the thing. I would have thought it was already done.

thought it was already done. >> I don't like that.

>> I don't like that. >> Until we're having this conversation, I

>> Until we're having this conversation, I can't believe that they're not

can't believe that they're not monitoring the sky constantly for

monitoring the sky constantly for anomalous objects.

anomalous objects. >> Well, they you remember the the Chinese

>> Well, they you remember the the Chinese spy balloon that was missed, right, and

spy balloon that was missed, right, and shut down.

shut down. >> Yeah. But that's that was

>> Yeah. But that's that was >> so the thing to keep in mind they are

>> so the thing to keep in mind they are getting data on things in the sky.

getting data on things in the sky. >> But if you don't have the right software

>> But if you don't have the right software now with AI,

now with AI, >> right?

>> right? >> If you don't have highquality scientists

>> If you don't have highquality scientists the way that the Manhattan project

the way that the Manhattan project employed, you might not figure out

employed, you might not figure out things. There is a reason why the

things. There is a reason why the Manhattan project recruited the very

Manhattan project recruited the very best scientists. So I say put a billion

best scientists. So I say put a billion dollars on this or more. Bring in the

dollars on this or more. Bring in the best scientists in the world to figure

best scientists in the world to figure it out. I'm funded at the level of

it out. I'm funded at the level of millions of dollars through the Galo

millions of dollars through the Galo project. The government can do a bit

project. The government can do a bit what is a billion dollars is is a drop

what is a billion dollars is is a drop in the bucket for the Pentagon. But if

in the bucket for the Pentagon. But if you know you you should think about the

you know you you should think about the the the

the the potential risk from drones that are used

potential risk from drones that are used by adversarial nations and you want to

by adversarial nations and you want to have the very best sensors using the

have the very best sensors using the very best of course AI.

very best of course AI. >> I just can't believe that that's not

>> I just can't believe that that's not already being done. That's what's so

already being done. That's what's so confusing. I would have thought that

confusing. I would have thought that there was some sort of very

there was some sort of very sophisticated monitoring of the skies

sophisticated monitoring of the skies already.

already. >> Well, that's

>> Well, that's >> especially when you take in all these

>> especially when you take in all these anecdotal stories, all these different

anecdotal stories, all these different stories of people spotting air, some

stories of people spotting air, some sort of a ship, something something that

sort of a ship, something something that moves in a very strange way. I I would

moves in a very strange way. I I would think that they're monitoring this stuff

think that they're monitoring this stuff all the time and not just with radar.

all the time and not just with radar. >> You see, there is an approach which is

>> You see, there is an approach which is to wait for the government to figure out

to wait for the government to figure out things or to release declassify them. So

things or to release declassify them. So a lot of people want the government to

a lot of people want the government to declassify.

declassify. >> I think it's just like waiting for God.

>> I think it's just like waiting for God. >> You can wait forever,

>> You can wait forever, >> right?

>> right? >> And it will never happen. So I say, you

>> And it will never happen. So I say, you know, we don't need the government to

know, we don't need the government to tell us what is up there in the sky

tell us what is up there in the sky because astronomy is all about that. We

because astronomy is all about that. We can build observatories, look at the

can build observatories, look at the sky. Anything that is humanmade is not

sky. Anything that is humanmade is not of interest to me. It's boring. I don't

of interest to me. It's boring. I don't care, you know. I uh I just want to see

care, you know. I uh I just want to see if there's anything that

if there's anything that >> Well, it's boring up to a point. If

>> Well, it's boring up to a point. If China has something that moves at, you

China has something that moves at, you know, Mach 30. Yeah. And can go

know, Mach 30. Yeah. And can go underwater. Yeah. It's get things get

underwater. Yeah. It's get things get very interesting.

very interesting. >> So my my methodology can definitely be

>> So my my methodology can definitely be used by the Department of War.

used by the Department of War. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> To figure out risks of the nature that

>> To figure out risks of the nature that you mentioned, but and by the way, um

you mentioned, but and by the way, um speaking about my colleagues, you know,

speaking about my colleagues, you know, so so there are people who said, "Oh,

so so there are people who said, "Oh, you're doing it to to to to win the

you're doing it to to to to win the Nobel Prize." like that's what you're or

Nobel Prize." like that's what you're or you're trying to sell books.

you're trying to sell books. You know, I don't charge a penny for my

You know, I don't charge a penny for my essays on medium.com. Money is not at

essays on medium.com. Money is not at all what motivates me. With respect to

all what motivates me. With respect to the Nobel Committee, you know, I have

the Nobel Committee, you know, I have the same attitude as Jean Paul Sarter

the same attitude as Jean Paul Sarter had and and Bob Dylan had. Uh if if I

had and and Bob Dylan had. Uh if if I find evidence for alien intelligence,

find evidence for alien intelligence, alien technology, I would not waste my

alien technology, I would not waste my time in a tuxedo in Stockholm. I will

time in a tuxedo in Stockholm. I will try to figure it out. That's much more

try to figure it out. That's much more important than an award given by a human

important than an award given by a human to a human. We're dealing with something

to a human. We're dealing with something really consequential.

really consequential. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And for the scientific community to

>> And for the scientific community to ignore that is irresponsible. Why is it

ignore that is irresponsible. Why is it irresponsible? Because it could affect

irresponsible? Because it could affect the future of humanity.

the future of humanity. >> Well, I think the problem with the

>> Well, I think the problem with the scientific community is the problem with

scientific community is the problem with all communities. They're overrun with

all communities. They're overrun with ego.

ego. >> I agree. And as I explained at the

>> I agree. And as I explained at the beginning,

beginning, >> it's just human beings when they get to

>> it's just human beings when they get to a position of any kind of authority, any

a position of any kind of authority, any any sort of a position of respect and

any sort of a position of respect and prestige, they want to protect that at

prestige, they want to protect that at all costs. And they they want to keep

all costs. And they they want to keep everyone down who they think is getting

everyone down who they think is getting unwarranted attention above them, like

unwarranted attention above them, like yourself. But given the fundamental

yourself. But given the fundamental landscape that we live in, as I

landscape that we live in, as I mentioned at the beginning, we live for

mentioned at the beginning, we live for a short time. We're not at the center of

a short time. We're not at the center of the universe.

the universe. >> We arrived late

>> We arrived late >> to cosmic history. You know, we just

>> to cosmic history. You know, we just arrived in the last few million years

arrived in the last few million years out of a 13.8 billion history, billion

out of a 13.8 billion history, billion years history.

years history. >> You know, the cosmic play is not about

>> You know, the cosmic play is not about us. If you arrive late to the play, at

us. If you arrive late to the play, at the end of the play, you are not at the

the end of the play, you are not at the center of stage. It's not about you.

center of stage. It's not about you. Okay? And our uh responsibility needs to

Okay? And our uh responsibility needs to be, you know, to find other actors that

be, you know, to find other actors that were around for much longer because they

were around for much longer because they know what the play is about.

know what the play is about. >> Yes. And let me ask you this. Have you

>> Yes. And let me ask you this. Have you seen any compelling information, any

seen any compelling information, any data that leads you to believe that we

data that leads you to believe that we have been visited?

have been visited? The only data I'm aware of that is worth

The only data I'm aware of that is worth attending to is the anomalies of Omua

attending to is the anomalies of Omua Mua of three Atlas which are very

Mua of three Atlas which are very different anomalies. Right?

different anomalies. Right? >> And there was also uh a meteor that I

>> And there was also uh a meteor that I discovered with my former undergraduate

discovered with my former undergraduate student Amir Shiraj. Uh a meteor that

student Amir Shiraj. Uh a meteor that was identified by US government

was identified by US government satellites back in 2014.

satellites back in 2014. and it was moving so fast that it

and it was moving so fast that it definitely came from outside the solar

definitely came from outside the solar system and my colleagues were very

system and my colleagues were very concerned and they said we don't believe

concerned and they said we don't believe the US government so maybe um Jamie can

the US government so maybe um Jamie can show us I said okay at the time I was

show us I said okay at the time I was chairing the board on physics and

chairing the board on physics and astronomy of the nationalmies

astronomy of the nationalmies >> why didn't they believe the US

>> why didn't they believe the US government about this

government about this >> because all the previous meteors they

>> because all the previous meteors they thought must have been from the solar

thought must have been from the solar system and therefore You know and the US

system and therefore You know and the US government also makes mistakes every now

government also makes mistakes every now and then they say

and then they say >> so the US government what department was

>> so the US government what department was observing

observing >> this is the space force the the US space

>> this is the space force the the US space command so what I what I did is at

command so what I what I did is at dinner as I was

dinner as I was >> what year was this

>> what year was this >> this was around 2020

>> this was around 2020 >> okay

>> okay >> and um I expressed my frustration at

>> and um I expressed my frustration at dinner with as chair of the board on

dinner with as chair of the board on physics and astronomy of the

physics and astronomy of the nationalmies and there was a member

nationalmies and there was a member there from Los Alamos national

there from Los Alamos national laboratory and he said, "Let me help

laboratory and he said, "Let me help you." We we managed to reach out to the

you." We we managed to reach out to the US Space Command through the White House

US Space Command through the White House at the time. And um we got an official

at the time. And um we got an official letter from the US Space Command saying

letter from the US Space Command saying we looked at the data and we can verify

we looked at the data and we can verify the 99.999%

the 99.999% that this object, this meteor, which was

that this object, this meteor, which was roughly half a meter in size, came from

roughly half a meter in size, came from outside the solar system. That's what

outside the solar system. That's what they said. At that point, I decided to

they said. At that point, I decided to lead an expedition to the Pacific Ocean

lead an expedition to the Pacific Ocean where the explosion was identified from

where the explosion was identified from the fireball. There was a huge amount of

the fireball. There was a huge amount of light to go there and search for the

light to go there and search for the materials from that object because it

materials from that object because it was moving fast. It was moving at 60

was moving fast. It was moving at 60 km/s relative to the solar system. Very

km/s relative to the solar system. Very similar to three three Atlas. So, it was

similar to three three Atlas. So, it was fast and moreover the object maintained

fast and moreover the object maintained its integrity down to the lower

its integrity down to the lower atmosphere. It didn't explode until it

atmosphere. It didn't explode until it got within 20 km of the surface of the

got within 20 km of the surface of the ocean. So, it must have been extremely

ocean. So, it must have been extremely tough, much tougher than all the

tough, much tougher than all the previous meteors cataloged uh by NASA.

previous meteors cataloged uh by NASA. Okay. So, I can show you some images

Okay. So, I can show you some images from that trip to the Pacific Ocean.

from that trip to the Pacific Ocean. Actually, it was documented by Netflix.

Actually, it was documented by Netflix. Uh and there will be a documentary

Uh and there will be a documentary coming out um within a year next year,

coming out um within a year next year, 2026. This this was the team of

2026. This this was the team of researchers that came with me on the

researchers that came with me on the deck of the ship and we collected

deck of the ship and we collected materials with a magnetic sled. This is

materials with a magnetic sled. This is a sled made with magnets on top of it.

a sled made with magnets on top of it. You can see the Netflix team at the

You can see the Netflix team at the lower left here. Um and um then I

lower left here. Um and um then I brought the materials in this suitcase

brought the materials in this suitcase that you see here. I shipped it by FedEx

that you see here. I shipped it by FedEx to my home. Uh this was a $1.5 million

to my home. Uh this was a $1.5 million expedition. So

expedition. So >> why would you ship it by FedEx? Why

>> why would you ship it by FedEx? Why wouldn't you just carry it with you?

wouldn't you just carry it with you? because I was worried that some

because I was worried that some somewhere in the airport they would say

somewhere in the airport they would say no we have to confiscate that

no we have to confiscate that >> but don't they know who you are? Can't

>> but don't they know who you are? Can't you like get somebody to call in?

you like get somebody to call in? >> I don't want to uh take any

>> I don't want to uh take any >> risk. So it's just a bunch of metal.

>> risk. So it's just a bunch of metal. >> No here you can see the material. So

>> No here you can see the material. So it's mostly sand from the bottom of the

it's mostly sand from the bottom of the ocean 2 km deep you know one mile or so

ocean 2 km deep you know one mile or so a little more than a mile. And then we I

a little more than a mile. And then we I I found these you know we found these

I found these you know we found these molten droplets you see that are very

molten droplets you see that are very distinct relative to grains of sand. and

distinct relative to grains of sand. and we isolated them. I had a you can go to

we isolated them. I had a you can go to the you can see here the these molten

the you can see here the these molten droplets and turns out that 10% of them

droplets and turns out that 10% of them uh did not have the composition of

uh did not have the composition of materials from the solar system and so

materials from the solar system and so we studied them in the laboratory of my

we studied them in the laboratory of my colleague at Harvard Stein Jacobson and

colleague at Harvard Stein Jacobson and uh I had a summer intern Sophie Burks

uh I had a summer intern Sophie Burks that found 850 of those molten droplets

that found 850 of those molten droplets that allowed us to do the analysis. How

that allowed us to do the analysis. How did my colleagues respond to that? They

did my colleagues respond to that? They said, "Oh, he went to the wrong place

said, "Oh, he went to the wrong place because there was a seismic signal that

because there was a seismic signal that could have been misidentified and could

could have been misidentified and could have been a truck passing nearby." And

have been a truck passing nearby." And so a reporter from the New York Times

so a reporter from the New York Times said, "Oh, they went to the wrong place

said, "Oh, they went to the wrong place because there it could have it was not a

because there it could have it was not a meteor. It was a truck." And I wrote to

meteor. It was a truck." And I wrote to the reporter and I said, "How

the reporter and I said, "How irresponsible are you? You didn't even

irresponsible are you? You didn't even ask me. The data that led us to this

ask me. The data that led us to this place was based on the fireball on the

place was based on the fireball on the light that was detected by US government

light that was detected by US government satellites and the US space command

satellites and the US space command confirmed the location. It was not based

confirmed the location. It was not based on the seismic detection of the signal.

on the seismic detection of the signal. We just you we just looked and found

We just you we just looked and found this.

this. >> So it seems like your colleagues are

>> So it seems like your colleagues are contacting New York Times to try to

contacting New York Times to try to dismiss you.

dismiss you. >> I wrote to the editor at the time and

>> I wrote to the editor at the time and said, "Look, if this is what you write

said, "Look, if this is what you write about science, how can we trust what you

about science, how can we trust what you write about politics?"

write about politics?" >> Right?

>> Right? Yeah. So these objects, these very small

Yeah. So these objects, these very small molten droplets, right, what did you

molten droplets, right, what did you determine from them?

determine from them? >> We found that 10% of them had a compos

>> We found that 10% of them had a compos chemical composition different than

chemical composition different than solar system materials that were found

solar system materials that were found before. And again, my colleagues, some

before. And again, my colleagues, some of them said, oh, they found coal ash,

of them said, oh, they found coal ash, you know, the burnt uh material from

you know, the burnt uh material from coal.

coal. So we said, okay, well, let's check. we

So we said, okay, well, let's check. we uh identified 61 elements from the

uh identified 61 elements from the periodic table and showed that it's

periodic table and showed that it's definitely not coash and then they said

definitely not coash and then they said it's something else from the crust of

it's something else from the crust of the earth. We check that it's not from

the earth. We check that it's not from the crust of the earth. It's a a an

the crust of the earth. It's a a an endless battle to basically I mean they

endless battle to basically I mean they can throw mud without having access to

can throw mud without having access to the

the >> I don't understand this is a known

>> I don't understand this is a known meteorite. It it hit Earth. You

meteorite. It it hit Earth. You collected pieces of material from the

collected pieces of material from the scene where it hit, right? And they

scene where it hit, right? And they still want to dismiss it.

still want to dismiss it. >> Yeah. They say the government cannot be

>> Yeah. They say the government cannot be trusted. They raise a lot of dust. If

trusted. They raise a lot of dust. If you raise a lot of dust, you can say I

you raise a lot of dust, you can say I don't see anything.

don't see anything. >> Well, you get the New York Times

>> Well, you get the New York Times involved, too, which is even stupider.

involved, too, which is even stupider. >> Well,

>> Well, >> it's so crazy that the New York Times

>> it's so crazy that the New York Times jumped in without contact.

jumped in without contact. >> But this is the landscape I have to

>> But this is the landscape I have to operate in. And the one thread through

operate in. And the one thread through this landscape is that common sense is

this landscape is that common sense is not common.

not common. >> Right. Well, it's it seems more than

>> Right. Well, it's it seems more than that. It seems like a coordinated

that. It seems like a coordinated attack. It seems like a bunch of people

attack. It seems like a bunch of people have a personal vendetta. Yes.

have a personal vendetta. Yes. >> Which is probably based on some petty

>> Which is probably based on some petty jealousy and also they just don't like

jealousy and also they just don't like people stepping ahead of them. You know,

people stepping ahead of them. You know, >> you know, I I told my uh students in the

>> you know, I I told my uh students in the class, I said on the first class, I

class, I said on the first class, I said, "What is the strongest force in

said, "What is the strongest force in academia?

academia? It's not gravity. It's not

It's not gravity. It's not electromagnetism.

electromagnetism. It's jealousy."

It's jealousy." >> I would hope it's curiosity. That's what

>> I would hope it's curiosity. That's what sucks. That's what brought me into

sucks. That's what brought me into science.

science. >> Well, that's what you describe,

>> Well, that's what you describe, >> you know, and I'm naive, you know. I

>> you know, and I'm naive, you know. I don't change my uh my reason for doing

don't change my uh my reason for doing something just because other people

something just because other people misbehave, you know. It's I feel like

misbehave, you know. It's I feel like I'm attending a party where the the the

I'm attending a party where the the the the attendees are misbehaving. And all I

the attendees are misbehaving. And all I can hope for is for a guest to show up

can hope for is for a guest to show up and change the situation. You know, one

and change the situation. You know, one reason I'm seeking intelligence in

reason I'm seeking intelligence in interstellar space is I don't often find

interstellar space is I don't often find it in academia.

it in academia. >> Well, I think addressing it helps. I I

>> Well, I think addressing it helps. I I think what you're doing helps. I think

think what you're doing helps. I think uh these kind of conversations do help

uh these kind of conversations do help because I don't think a lot of people

because I don't think a lot of people are aware of the kind of resistance that

are aware of the kind of resistance that you face. And I know it's a lot of what

you face. And I know it's a lot of what you discussed and I I wish it was less,

you discussed and I I wish it was less, but uh it's important for people to know

but uh it's important for people to know that you have to go through this kind of

that you have to go through this kind of nonsense. Well, I I don't

nonsense. Well, I I don't >> especially when you think this object

>> especially when you think this object three eye atlas is weird.

three eye atlas is weird. >> Yeah,

>> Yeah, >> it's weird.

>> it's weird. >> You know, I I served in the Israeli

>> You know, I I served in the Israeli military and um we parachuted, we drove

military and um we parachuted, we drove tanks. I was in a special unit that

tanks. I was in a special unit that allowed me to finish my PhD at age 24.

allowed me to finish my PhD at age 24. And then the SDI, the the Star Wars

And then the SDI, the the Star Wars initiative, President Rean brought me to

initiative, President Rean brought me to the US. Uh and I remember while serving

the US. Uh and I remember while serving in the par troopers that there was a

in the par troopers that there was a saying that sometimes you have to put

saying that sometimes you have to put your body on the barbed wire so that

your body on the barbed wire so that your friends, colleagues, soldiers can

your friends, colleagues, soldiers can cross

cross >> climb over your back.

>> climb over your back. >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> And uh I you know as long as I allow

>> And uh I you know as long as I allow young people to innovate,

young people to innovate, as long as I attract kids to science, I

as long as I attract kids to science, I did my job. It's not about me. You see,

did my job. It's not about me. You see, it's about humanity getting better and

it's about humanity getting better and it will not get better with AI as we

it will not get better with AI as we discussed. It could get better with

discussed. It could get better with alien intelligence because we will

alien intelligence because we will realize that there is something else out

realize that there is something else out there that is more accomplished than we

there that is more accomplished than we are. So, it will serve as a role model.

are. So, it will serve as a role model. You know, in 1882,

You know, in 1882, Fred Niche said, "God is dead." And

Fred Niche said, "God is dead." And since then we had a century of modern

since then we had a century of modern science and technology where we feel

science and technology where we feel hubris. You know we we are argon we you

hubris. You know we we are argon we you know we are at the top of the food

know we are at the top of the food chain. You know we go to restaurants we

chain. You know we go to restaurants we eat other animals that are less

eat other animals that are less intelligent than we are. But just think

intelligent than we are. But just think about it. If it turns out that we are

about it. If it turns out that we are not at the top of the food chain in the

not at the top of the food chain in the Milky Way galaxy. There is someone more

Milky Way galaxy. There is someone more intelligent than us. If that someone

intelligent than us. If that someone comes to visit Earth, will we be served

comes to visit Earth, will we be served in their soup?

in their soup? >> I wouldn't think so. I would think

>> I wouldn't think so. I would think there's plenty of other things to eat

there's plenty of other things to eat that aren't intelligent. I mean, that's

that aren't intelligent. I mean, that's sort of the deal that we make here. We

sort of the deal that we make here. We eat things, but we try not to eat

eat things, but we try not to eat intelligent things, which is not

intelligent things, which is not entirely true because we eat a lot of

entirely true because we eat a lot of octopus.

octopus. >> Yeah. I I had this dilemma in Boston.

>> Yeah. I I had this dilemma in Boston. >> Quite intelligent. Yeah.

>> Quite intelligent. Yeah. >> And then there's a lot of people in

>> And then there's a lot of people in indigenous tribes that really prefer

indigenous tribes that really prefer monkey meat. You know that's th those

monkey meat. You know that's th those are human beings that love to eat

are human beings that love to eat monkeys. That gets a little weird, too.

monkeys. That gets a little weird, too. But I don't think they're going to

But I don't think they're going to travel all the way over here to eat

travel all the way over here to eat people. I think if we were that

people. I think if we were that delicious, we would be eating each other

delicious, we would be eating each other a lot.

a lot. >> No, it's probably a situation where we

>> No, it's probably a situation where we are just like ants in the cracks of a

are just like ants in the cracks of a pavement and there is a biker passing by

pavement and there is a biker passing by and we are trying to make sounds and you

and we are trying to make sounds and you know get attention. We think it's about

know get attention. We think it's about us. It's always about us. According to

us. It's always about us. According to us,

us, >> but it's not about us.

>> but it's not about us. >> Well, it's it's not about us cosmically.

>> Well, it's it's not about us cosmically. uh when you take into consideration the

uh when you take into consideration the the in the vast spans of the universe.

the in the vast spans of the universe. But if I was an intelligent species and

But if I was an intelligent species and my curiosity led me to explore other

my curiosity led me to explore other intelligent species and they were far

intelligent species and they were far more advanced than us, I think they

more advanced than us, I think they would find us quite fascinating. That

would find us quite fascinating. That was the the the argument that I got into

was the the the argument that I got into with Neil Degrass Tyson where he was

with Neil Degrass Tyson where he was like, I don't think we're that

like, I don't think we're that interesting. Like they would visit us.

interesting. Like they would visit us. >> You have to keep in mind he's not a

>> You have to keep in mind he's not a practicing astrophysicist. He's not

practicing astrophysicist. He's not writing scientific papers. I write a

writing scientific papers. I write a paper almost every week.

paper almost every week. >> I'm in the trenches doing science. It's

>> I'm in the trenches doing science. It's very different. It's just like, you

very different. It's just like, you know, you have soccer players and you

know, you have soccer players and you have commentators on the bench, you

have commentators on the bench, you know, and you can be a commentator,

know, and you can be a commentator, popularize science, but the difference

popularize science, but the difference is that as a commentator, you will never

is that as a commentator, you will never score a goal.

score a goal. >> Well, that's my position as a UFC

>> Well, that's my position as a UFC commentator. I don't get in there and

commentator. I don't get in there and fight people. I understand the fighting.

fight people. I understand the fighting. I can do my best to help explain it to

I can do my best to help explain it to people, but I don't do it. So, yeah.

people, but I don't do it. So, yeah. >> You know, a few months ago, experts.

>> You know, a few months ago, experts. >> A few months ago, I was at a gathering

>> A few months ago, I was at a gathering and there was a cocktail hour and um it

and there was a cocktail hour and um it was with celebrities and uh I saw Margot

was with celebrities and uh I saw Margot Trobby standing and um of course I have

Trobby standing and um of course I have nothing to offer, you know, like what

nothing to offer, you know, like what kind of opening line would I start a

kind of opening line would I start a conversation. I I I didn't know how to

conversation. I I I didn't know how to start a conversation. So I was just

start a conversation. So I was just standing on the side and then someone

standing on the side and then someone came with my book Interstellar and said,

came with my book Interstellar and said, "Would you mind signing it for me?" And

"Would you mind signing it for me?" And so I signed the book and she noticed it

so I signed the book and she noticed it and she came over and said, "Are you a

and she came over and said, "Are you a lobe? I really wanted to hear more about

lobe? I really wanted to hear more about what you're doing." And we started a

what you're doing." And we started a conversation for 20 minutes. Then I gave

conversation for 20 minutes. Then I gave my talk and Jerry Brookheimimer was in

my talk and Jerry Brookheimimer was in the audience. He is one of the most

the audience. He is one of the most accomplished, you know?

accomplished, you know? >> Uh he came afterwards and said, "I just

>> Uh he came afterwards and said, "I just finished F1, you know, the Yeah. the

finished F1, you know, the Yeah. the movie. And um my next one is about a

movie. And um my next one is about a scientist like you searching for UAPs

scientist like you searching for UAPs and trying to figure them out.

and trying to figure them out. >> Oh,

>> Oh, >> and then I saw uh Broady Adren Broady

>> and then I saw uh Broady Adren Broady was standing there and he told me I

was standing there and he told me I really want to become a scientist. You

really want to become a scientist. You know, I always wanted to become a

know, I always wanted to become a scientist. I said it's not too late. And

scientist. I said it's not too late. And then I went to Jerry and said, look, he

then I went to Jerry and said, look, he should be your leading actor cuz Adrian

should be your leading actor cuz Adrian really wanted to become

really wanted to become >> casting calls.

>> casting calls. Look at that. Figuring it out for them.

Look at that. Figuring it out for them. Interesting. Um, yeah. I mean, look, you

Interesting. Um, yeah. I mean, look, you science fiction is one of the most

science fiction is one of the most popular genres of of films ever because

popular genres of of films ever because everybody has curiosity about it,

everybody has curiosity about it, >> but but nature might be much more

>> but but nature might be much more imaginative than the best script writers

imaginative than the best script writers in Hollywood.

in Hollywood. >> Very likely.

>> Very likely. >> And so if we look up,

>> And so if we look up, >> we might get a much better movie. And

>> we might get a much better movie. And there is actually a Reuben, the Reubin

there is actually a Reuben, the Reubin Observatory funded by the National

Observatory funded by the National Science Foundation, Department of Energy

Science Foundation, Department of Energy in Chile. It was inaugurated in June

in Chile. It was inaugurated in June this year.

this year. >> Is that the VT array?

>> Is that the VT array? >> No, the VT is a very large telescope by

>> No, the VT is a very large telescope by the European Southern Observatory. But

the European Southern Observatory. But this one was funded by the US. Uh, and

this one was funded by the US. Uh, and it it has a 3.2 gigapixel camera

it it has a 3.2 gigapixel camera monitoring the southern sky every four

monitoring the southern sky every four nights. And it's an amazing survey

nights. And it's an amazing survey telescope. And by the way, sphere has a

telescope. And by the way, sphere has a a display that is the biggest in the

a display that is the biggest in the world of um uh you know uh 14,000 by

world of um uh you know uh 14,000 by 14,000 pixels. Okay, that's a factor of

14,000 pixels. Okay, that's a factor of 13 less pixels than the Reubin camera

13 less pixels than the Reubin camera has

has >> observing the real sky. Now Reubin will

>> observing the real sky. Now Reubin will potentially based on estimates discover

potentially based on estimates discover an interstellar object like three Atlas

an interstellar object like three Atlas or even smaller every few months. So we

or even smaller every few months. So we are entering a new era where we will

are entering a new era where we will have a lot of visitors that we

have a lot of visitors that we recognize. There might have been traffic

recognize. There might have been traffic all the time that we didn't were not

all the time that we didn't were not aware of

aware of >> probably right

>> probably right >> and my recommendation is to establish an

>> and my recommendation is to establish an organization. I wrote to the United

organization. I wrote to the United Nations about it. I wrote also to uh the

Nations about it. I wrote also to uh the international astronomical union to

international astronomical union to establish an organizational committee

establish an organizational committee that would coordinate observations

that would coordinate observations of these objects so we can figure out

of these objects so we can figure out their nature and make sure and then of

their nature and make sure and then of course inform policy makers politicians

course inform policy makers politicians how to respond because when you have a

how to respond because when you have a visitor to your backyard you need to

visitor to your backyard you need to respond immediately. It's not like

respond immediately. It's not like getting a radio signal from tens of

getting a radio signal from tens of thousands of light years away where you

thousands of light years away where you have plenty of time to wait here. You

have plenty of time to wait here. You have to do something and so I hope that

have to do something and so I hope that they they will do that. Uh and actually

they they will do that. Uh and actually the international asteroid warning

the international asteroid warning network just two days ago announced they

network just two days ago announced they will have a campaign looking at three

will have a campaign looking at three atlas with a lot of observatories on

atlas with a lot of observatories on earth uh between uh November 27th and

earth uh between uh November 27th and January 27th. So I'm very glad that they

January 27th. So I'm very glad that they decided to do that. They are related to

decided to do that. They are related to the United Nations.

the United Nations. >> Now what is it about Chile? Is it the

>> Now what is it about Chile? Is it the atmosphere? Is it the altitude?

atmosphere? Is it the altitude? >> As a result of geology, there is this um

>> As a result of geology, there is this um stretch of mountains that was erected

stretch of mountains that was erected and if you look at the map of Chile,

and if you look at the map of Chile, it's sort of lying on a strip. Uh and

it's sort of lying on a strip. Uh and not only that, the peaks reach a very

not only that, the peaks reach a very high level so that you have less

high level so that you have less atmosphere between you and the stars. I

atmosphere between you and the stars. I mean the real problem right now is

mean the real problem right now is actually starling satellites that are

actually starling satellites that are artificial lights in the sky and we have

artificial lights in the sky and we have to subtract them off because there are

to subtract them off because there are you know tense there will be tens of

you know tense there will be tens of thousands of those.

thousands of those. >> Uh we're trying to avoid city lights by

>> Uh we're trying to avoid city lights by going to these mountains and then we

going to these mountains and then we have city lights in the sky.

have city lights in the sky. >> Um but other than that it's less

>> Um but other than that it's less atmosphere so it's good to be high up

atmosphere so it's good to be high up and in addition um it's not very

and in addition um it's not very turbulent. The weather is very good

turbulent. The weather is very good there. So there is the Atakama desert

there. So there is the Atakama desert and uh there are many astronomical

and uh there are many astronomical observatories there and uh the other

observatories there and uh the other place where you have a lot of

place where you have a lot of state-of-the-art facilities is

state-of-the-art facilities is >> Hawaii the ke the issue yeah the issue

>> Hawaii the ke the issue yeah the issue there is that there are severe political

there is that there are severe political limitations because of the indigenous

limitations because of the indigenous people there that are

people there that are >> assigning religious sentiment to to the

>> assigning religious sentiment to to the mountains. So they they cannot build

mountains. So they they cannot build more telescopes there. Uh so so Chile I

more telescopes there. Uh so so Chile I mean the government in Chile is

mean the government in Chile is encouraging science and we are getting a

encouraging science and we are getting a lot of useful data from Chile. Yeah,

lot of useful data from Chile. Yeah, it's it's we need more of it, right? We

it's it's we need more of it, right? We we need quite a bit more.

we need quite a bit more. We need some

We need some much more enhanced ability to observe

much more enhanced ability to observe the skies if these things are out there

the skies if these things are out there and we do miss a lot of them. And one of

and we do miss a lot of them. And one of them could potentially be a civilization

them could potentially be a civilization ender.

ender. >> You should probably be aware of that.

>> You should probably be aware of that. >> I think also the president of the United

>> I think also the president of the United States should be aware of that.

States should be aware of that. >> Yeah, he should be. Have you ever talked

>> Yeah, he should be. Have you ever talked to him? I haven't talked to him, but I

to him? I haven't talked to him, but I spoke with others. Um, you know,

spoke with others. Um, you know, Congresswoman Anna Paulina Luna,

Congresswoman Anna Paulina Luna, Congressman,

Congressman, >> are they all aware?

>> are they all aware? >> Well, in fact, Luna, Representative

>> Well, in fact, Luna, Representative Luna, she called me on the phone a

Luna, she called me on the phone a couple of months ago and asked me for an

couple of months ago and asked me for an update on 3i Atlas, and I promise to

update on 3i Atlas, and I promise to send her routine updates. I, you know, I

send her routine updates. I, you know, I have essays that I write every day or

have essays that I write every day or two about the latest. Um, and she's very

two about the latest. Um, and she's very interested. Uh and um uh I you know I I

interested. Uh and um uh I you know I I in the I did communicate with people

in the I did communicate with people around the White House. Um but uh I

around the White House. Um but uh I think the president should be aware of

think the president should be aware of that. Of course, most likely most

that. Of course, most likely most objects would be uh just rocks, you

objects would be uh just rocks, you know.

know. >> By the way, this is the material that I

>> By the way, this is the material that I brought back from the bottom of the

brought back from the bottom of the Pacific Ocean in these tubes. I brought

Pacific Ocean in these tubes. I brought one to show you here. Um and you know um

one to show you here. Um and you know um we should approach the universe with a

we should approach the universe with a sense of curiosity but also modesty. You

sense of curiosity but also modesty. You know it's really we desperately need to

know it's really we desperately need to be more modest.

be more modest. >> Do you pay attention at all to all this

>> Do you pay attention at all to all this uh UAP disclosure discussion and the

uh UAP disclosure discussion and the discussion that there's

discussion that there's >> some secret back engineering programs.

>> some secret back engineering programs. What do you

What do you >> So a day after I was visiting Arrow the

>> So a day after I was visiting Arrow the old domain anomaly resolution office at

old domain anomaly resolution office at the Pentagon. I sit uh in Congress. I

the Pentagon. I sit uh in Congress. I gave a briefing about the Galilo project

gave a briefing about the Galilo project and next to me is Eric Davis and he says

and next to me is Eric Davis and he says I'm uh when I was worked in government I

I'm uh when I was worked in government I became aware of

became aware of uh the fact that the US government has

uh the fact that the US government has materials in its possession that it may

materials in its possession that it may have given to corporations like Loheed

have given to corporations like Loheed Martin or others um of

Martin or others um of uh crash sites uh of spacecraft from

uh crash sites uh of spacecraft from outside of this earth and including bi

outside of this earth and including bi biologics

biologics biological material. So on the one hand

biological material. So on the one hand I hear the day before that there is

I hear the day before that there is really nothing because the arrow people

really nothing because the arrow people said that they have access to all the

said that they have access to all the information within government and they

information within government and they haven't found anything and then a day

haven't found anything and then a day later I hear Eric Davis saying what he

later I hear Eric Davis saying what he said and the question is who should I

said and the question is who should I believe and my point is I believe

believe and my point is I believe evidence so I want I I don't believe

evidence so I want I I don't believe stories because you know the if there is

stories because you know the if there is a car accident. Uh different people give

a car accident. Uh different people give you different accounts of what really

you different accounts of what really happened. That's why FIFA is using

happened. That's why FIFA is using cameras to monitor soccer games. They

cameras to monitor soccer games. They don't go and ask the players or the

don't go and ask the players or the audience whether there was a a goal in

audience whether there was a a goal in in a controversial case and they just

in a controversial case and they just use data. And so that is the scientific

use data. And so that is the scientific method. FIFA is using the scientific. So

method. FIFA is using the scientific. So I don't care about stories because when

I don't care about stories because when I was a kid, I would sit at the dinner

I was a kid, I would sit at the dinner table, ask a difficult question and I

table, ask a difficult question and I would see the adults in the room

would see the adults in the room inventing answers that made no sense as

inventing answers that made no sense as a kid,

a kid, >> right?

>> right? >> And I decided I don't care what the you

>> And I decided I don't care what the you know about these stories from things

know about these stories from things that happened in the past or whatever. I

that happened in the past or whatever. I just want to figure it out myself from

just want to figure it out myself from data being guided.

data being guided. >> Have you spoken to Gary Nolan?

>> Have you spoken to Gary Nolan? >> Of course. Have you ever talked to him

>> Of course. Have you ever talked to him about some of these anomalous alloys

about some of these anomalous alloys that what what is your thoughts on

that what what is your thoughts on those?

those? >> Well, the issue

>> Well, the issue >> explain to people what they have found

>> explain to people what they have found and how weird some of these things are.

and how weird some of these things are. >> Yes. So, Gary in collaboration with

>> Yes. So, Gary in collaboration with other scientists looked into materials

other scientists looked into materials that were found under unusual

that were found under unusual circumstances and they realized that the

circumstances and they realized that the structure of the materials uh is uh very

structure of the materials uh is uh very improbable to have been made naturally.

improbable to have been made naturally. Uh now the issue I have with that is

Uh now the issue I have with that is whether uh these materials were indeed

whether uh these materials were indeed uh they they came from the sky from some

uh they they came from the sky from some extraterrestrial origin or whether

extraterrestrial origin or whether someone produced it you know or or did

someone produced it you know or or did intention maybe it was another

intention maybe it was another government that did something. So I

government that did something. So I really in terms of evidence I really

really in terms of evidence I really need to get um conclusive evidence that

need to get um conclusive evidence that will convince me beyond any reasonable

will convince me beyond any reasonable doubt. It's just like you know uh in a

doubt. It's just like you know uh in a >> rock solid chain of custody from the

>> rock solid chain of custody from the very beginning.

very beginning. >> But the key is that without seeking it

>> But the key is that without seeking it you will never find it. So if you have

you will never find it. So if you have the mindset that everything in the sky

the mindset that everything in the sky is rocks now and and that everything on

is rocks now and and that everything on earth is materials we are familiar with

earth is materials we are familiar with either from humans or uh you know

either from humans or uh you know natural process on earth. You will not

natural process on earth. You will not invest time and resources to look for

invest time and resources to look for anything. And uh

anything. And uh >> so it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. very

>> so it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. very often you know if you have this uh uh

often you know if you have this uh uh these blinders it's just like with a

these blinders it's just like with a horse you you put blinders on your eyes

horse you you put blinders on your eyes you can't look sideways you don't see

you can't look sideways you don't see that there are things beyond your path

that there are things beyond your path the path that is a beaten path everyone

the path that is a beaten path everyone is taking that path why would you know

is taking that path why would you know it's a waste of your time to do the same

it's a waste of your time to do the same thing as others are doing and science

thing as others are doing and science offers you a way out of that collecting

offers you a way out of that collecting evidence but for that you need money you

evidence but for that you need money you need resources you need prestige to be

need resources you need prestige to be able to lead a team that goes in a

able to lead a team that goes in a different direction. That's what I'm

different direction. That's what I'm trying to do. Uh and you know, I think

trying to do. Uh and you know, I think science will be served much better if we

science will be served much better if we were to explore different paths until we

were to explore different paths until we figure out the truth.

figure out the truth. >> Yes. Um did you ever get a look at any

>> Yes. Um did you ever get a look at any of these alloys?

of these alloys? >> Uh not the ones that um Gary looked at

>> Uh not the ones that um Gary looked at and I saw his papers. But to me the main

and I saw his papers. But to me the main uncertainty there is where did it come

uncertainty there is where did it come from? Now someone could have

from? Now someone could have manufactured in the case of the Meteor.

manufactured in the case of the Meteor. I know that there was an explosion there

I know that there was an explosion there from an object.

from an object. >> I understand what you're saying, but if

>> I understand what you're saying, but if you if they're being correct about the

you if they're being correct about the dates of these things, someone couldn't

dates of these things, someone couldn't have manufactured it then. The

have manufactured it then. The technology wasn't available, right?

technology wasn't available, right? >> Some of these are from the 1950s.

>> Some of these are from the 1950s. For this alloy to have been created and

For this alloy to have been created and layered atomically

layered atomically >> from the 1950s, that technology, as far

>> from the 1950s, that technology, as far as we we know, is not available by us.

as we we know, is not available by us. So, there's a lot of weird theories. And

So, there's a lot of weird theories. And one of the weird theories is a breakoff

one of the weird theories is a breakoff civilization that somehow or another

civilization that somehow or another survived under the ocean. That's the

survived under the ocean. That's the kookiest one. But there's a lot of

kookiest one. But there's a lot of people that are talking about that as if

people that are talking about that as if it's a a real possibility that there are

it's a a real possibility that there are anomalous things they find in the ocean.

anomalous things they find in the ocean. They find things that plummet into the

They find things that plummet into the water and don't make a wave and that

water and don't make a wave and that they pass through the ocean going 500

they pass through the ocean going 500 knots, which we don't have any

knots, which we don't have any capability of doing anything remotely

capability of doing anything remotely like that with the resistance of the

like that with the resistance of the ocean.

ocean. >> Representative Tim Borchett said that.

>> Representative Tim Borchett said that. Yeah.

Yeah. >> And he talk Tim Bashette was talking

>> And he talk Tim Bashette was talking about these five areas that they know

about these five areas that they know these anomalous things keep coming from.

these anomalous things keep coming from. >> Yeah. This is very intriguing. Uh we

>> Yeah. This is very intriguing. Uh we didn't survey most of the ocean surface

didn't survey most of the ocean surface area and

area and >> um

>> um >> forget about inside the ocean.

>> forget about inside the ocean. >> Inside the ocean. Um, so I think we

>> Inside the ocean. Um, so I think we should definitely look into the the

should definitely look into the the ocean and the rest of Earth and

ocean and the rest of Earth and >> but that would be the most nutty thing

>> but that would be the most nutty thing of all time if there was an advanced

of all time if there was an advanced civilization living in the ocean this

civilization living in the ocean this entire time doing and doing what?

entire time doing and doing what? Monitoring us.

Monitoring us. >> Okay, speaking about nutty things, let

>> Okay, speaking about nutty things, let me mention an example.

me mention an example. >> Okay. uh you know back u in 1970 there

>> Okay. uh you know back u in 1970 there was a graduate student at Princeton

was a graduate student at Princeton called the Jacob Beckinstein

called the Jacob Beckinstein and he read papers written by Stephven

and he read papers written by Stephven Hawking who said uh he demonstrated

Hawking who said uh he demonstrated Stephen Hawking demonstrated that when

Stephen Hawking demonstrated that when you take two black holes the area

you take two black holes the area surrounding the black holes a black hole

surrounding the black holes a black hole is an ultimate prison nothing can escape

is an ultimate prison nothing can escape from it it's just like Vegas anything

from it it's just like Vegas anything that happens in

that happens in >> stays in it uh but when you merge two

>> stays in it uh but when you merge two because the area surrounding them the

because the area surrounding them the product of the merger is always bigger

product of the merger is always bigger than the sum of the areas. He he

than the sum of the areas. He he demonstrated that mathematically and

demonstrated that mathematically and then uh Beckenstein said well that's

then uh Beckenstein said well that's interesting because we know about the

interesting because we know about the second law of thermodynamics where

second law of thermodynamics where entropy always increases so maybe the

entropy always increases so maybe the black holes have entropy related to

black holes have entropy related to their surface and his mentor was John

their surface and his mentor was John Willer

Willer at Princeton and he said you know this

at Princeton and he said you know this is a crazy enough idea that it might be

is a crazy enough idea that it might be true

true >> speaking about naughty ideas.

>> speaking about naughty ideas. >> Yeah. And then Stephen Hawking heard

>> Yeah. And then Stephen Hawking heard Beckinstein speak about it and he said

Beckinstein speak about it and he said that's nonsense. That's nonsense. Makes

that's nonsense. That's nonsense. Makes no sense. I will prove it to be wrong.

no sense. I will prove it to be wrong. So he used quantum mechanics in a curved

So he used quantum mechanics in a curved spaceime around a black hole and lo and

spaceime around a black hole and lo and behold he found they emit radiation.

behold he found they emit radiation. They have a temperature.

They have a temperature. They have entropy. This is the biggest

They have entropy. This is the biggest discovery, theoretical discovery of

discovery, theoretical discovery of Stephen Hawking celebrated since you

Stephen Hawking celebrated since you know for 51

know for 51 years now. Um and he went to disprove

years now. Um and he went to disprove Beckinstein and proved him right. It was

Beckinstein and proved him right. It was considered a crazy idea in the mind of

considered a crazy idea in the mind of >> the person who benefited most from

>> the person who benefited most from discovering that Beckinstein was right.

discovering that Beckinstein was right. So my point about crazy ideas is, you

So my point about crazy ideas is, you know, and by the way, over the past 50

know, and by the way, over the past 50 years, the mainstream of theoretical

years, the mainstream of theoretical physics was obsessed with black hole

physics was obsessed with black hole entropy trying to use it to figure out a

entropy trying to use it to figure out a theory that unifies quantum mechanics

theory that unifies quantum mechanics and gravity. We don't have that theory,

and gravity. We don't have that theory, by the way. And that's the reason, you

by the way. And that's the reason, you know, if I ever meet an alien scientist,

know, if I ever meet an alien scientist, what is the first question I would ask?

what is the first question I would ask? Okay, it's

Okay, it's what happened before the big bang?

what happened before the big bang? because it defines our cosmic roots.

because it defines our cosmic roots. But in addition to that, it also will

But in addition to that, it also will help us figure out how to unify quantum

help us figure out how to unify quantum mechanics and gravity because Einstein's

mechanics and gravity because Einstein's gravity breaks down when we go to the

gravity breaks down when we go to the big bang when the density of matter and

big bang when the density of matter and radiation was infinite. So,

radiation was infinite. So, you know, for example, if we knew how

you know, for example, if we knew how the universe started, what ingredients

the universe started, what ingredients you need to put together, how much heat

you need to put together, how much heat you want to apply

you want to apply um to make our universe, you would have

um to make our universe, you would have a recipe for making a universe. It's

a recipe for making a universe. It's just like recipe for a cake. If you have

just like recipe for a cake. If you have a recipe for a cake, you can become

a recipe for a cake, you can become a baker. Okay? If we had the recipe for

a baker. Okay? If we had the recipe for making the big bang,

making the big bang, >> we could apply to the job of God because

>> we could apply to the job of God because one of the defining feature of God is

one of the defining feature of God is the ability to create a universe. And

the ability to create a universe. And just think that what we call God could

just think that what we call God could have been a very advanced scientist that

have been a very advanced scientist that did a laboratory experiment, created our

did a laboratory experiment, created our universe in it.

universe in it. >> Right?

>> Right? >> So, um that's what I would like to ask

>> So, um that's what I would like to ask the aliens.

the aliens. >> Well, let me ask you this. When when

>> Well, let me ask you this. When when someone from the government tells you

someone from the government tells you about biologics and this crash retrieval

about biologics and this crash retrieval program,

program, don't you want to be able to see that

don't you want to be able to see that somehow? Did you ask if it's possible?

somehow? Did you ask if it's possible? Did you try to set up meetings?

Did you try to set up meetings? >> Yeah. I I when I ask, of course, you you

>> Yeah. I I when I ask, of course, you you encounter a brick wall, you know.

encounter a brick wall, you know. >> What did they say? What was your

>> What did they say? What was your question?

question? >> Well, when I visited the the Pentagon,

>> Well, when I visited the the Pentagon, my question was, you know, is there

my question was, you know, is there something like that? And they deny it.

something like that? And they deny it. Okay.

Okay. >> Right.

>> Right. >> Um and then I'm being told maybe it's

>> Um and then I'm being told maybe it's not inside government, maybe it was

not inside government, maybe it was delegated to corporations, outside

delegated to corporations, outside government. And you know, one employee

government. And you know, one employee of of one of these corporations told me

of of one of these corporations told me privately, you know, it may it may not

privately, you know, it may it may not be wrong. So I don't know who to

be wrong. So I don't know who to believe. You see, these are it's just

believe. You see, these are it's just like people tell me stories that I don't

like people tell me stories that I don't know whether to trust until I see it.

know whether to trust until I see it. And I'm very happy to help government

And I'm very happy to help government figure it out, you know, because their

figure it out, you know, because their ro it's it's a a misuse of their

ro it's it's a a misuse of their privileges to attend to data related to

privileges to attend to data related to what's outside the solar system, right?

what's outside the solar system, right? They they're supposed to deal with what

They they're supposed to deal with what happens on Earth on the surface of

happens on Earth on the surface of Earth, right?

Earth, right? >> National security,

>> National security, >> they are not supposed to tell us what

>> they are not supposed to tell us what lies outside the solar system. And I

lies outside the solar system. And I want to help them figure it out, but

want to help them figure it out, but they don't give me that data. And I

they don't give me that data. And I don't know if it exists because I have

don't know if it exists because I have never seen it. Have you tried to pursue

never seen it. Have you tried to pursue it though? Have you like gone through

it though? Have you like gone through different channels to try to figure out

different channels to try to figure out if there's someone that you can

if there's someone that you can communicate with any of these?

communicate with any of these? >> So far, I didn't get any contract

>> So far, I didn't get any contract because it's defense contractor. So that

because it's defense contractor. So that that's the the current most attractive

that's the the current most attractive theory is that the defense contractor

theory is that the defense contractor cuz if you had a a project that they

cuz if you had a a project that they were trying to backineer, those are the

were trying to backineer, those are the people that you'd bring it to. The

people that you'd bring it to. The people that make the actual rockets

people that make the actual rockets themselves, the people that make the

themselves, the people that make the jets and the spaceships, you'd bring it

jets and the spaceships, you'd bring it to them,

to them, >> right? But I should tell you that, you

>> right? But I should tell you that, you know, we always think, oh, AI is the

know, we always think, oh, AI is the future. We've never used AI in space.

future. We've never used AI in space. And to me, it would sound much more

And to me, it would sound much more natural if we had a visitor with

natural if we had a visitor with intelligence, but it's based on AI, not

intelligence, but it's based on AI, not biologics, because then it can survive

biologics, because then it can survive the long journey. It will never get

the long journey. It will never get bored.

bored. >> Which is why the biologics is weird.

>> Which is why the biologics is weird. if they have supposedly some or that

if they have supposedly some or that gives you more of an indication that

gives you more of an indication that maybe is something from the ocean.

maybe is something from the ocean. >> If it's something from inside the ocean

>> If it's something from inside the ocean and then it's a biological thing that

and then it's a biological thing that you know at one point in time there was

you know at one point in time there was an advanced civilization that figured

an advanced civilization that figured out a way to survive under the ocean.

out a way to survive under the ocean. >> You know I I really admire biology

>> You know I I really admire biology because think about our brain it's using

because think about our brain it's using 20 watts. It's the size of the brain the

20 watts. It's the size of the brain the human brain was limited by the metabolic

human brain was limited by the metabolic power of the human body. We it's using a

power of the human body. We it's using a fifth of the power of the human body and

fifth of the power of the human body and that's the largest brain that an animal

that's the largest brain that an animal like us can have given our body size and

like us can have given our body size and the amount of food that we use. So it's

the amount of food that we use. So it's operating on 20 watts. Then you have

operating on 20 watts. Then you have these AI systems that are barely you

these AI systems that are barely you know getting to the level of

know getting to the level of sophistication to imitate it and they

sophistication to imitate it and they use gigawatts. We need nuclear powers

use gigawatts. We need nuclear powers >> and biology figured it out. You know

>> and biology figured it out. You know that's that's amazing. Also, as much as

that's that's amazing. Also, as much as uh you know, self-driving cars are

uh you know, self-driving cars are amazing, we don't have self-replicating

amazing, we don't have self-replicating cars

cars in nature. You know, you have animals

in nature. You know, you have animals like oursel, you know, we replicate

like oursel, you know, we replicate oursel. We we have kids

oursel. We we have kids >> that that can function and consume

>> that that can function and consume materials from the environment. Just

materials from the environment. Just imagine your car, okay,

imagine your car, okay, >> using the sand or using some stuff in

>> using the sand or using some stuff in the environment to repair itself. Every

the environment to repair itself. Every time you bump into something, it can

time you bump into something, it can create smaller cars for you to use.

create smaller cars for you to use. That's amazing. Like we can't even

That's amazing. Like we can't even imagine building a car that will

imagine building a car that will self-replicate. And nature did it.

self-replicate. And nature did it. >> So to me, we are at the infancy of

>> So to me, we are at the infancy of understanding how much better we can go

understanding how much better we can go than AI. Because if nature did it out of

than AI. Because if nature did it out of random processes and created such a

random processes and created such a brain on 20 watts and we are struggling

brain on 20 watts and we are struggling with gigawatts to imitate it. You know

with gigawatts to imitate it. You know there must be a better path forward that

there must be a better path forward that is similar to biology but much more

is similar to biology but much more powerful than random processes that

powerful than random processes that happened on earth

happened on earth >> and and also self-replicating you. So if

>> and and also self-replicating you. So if you send a spacecraft to a planet

you send a spacecraft to a planet instead of you know uh sending many you

instead of you know uh sending many you send just one that replicates and then

send just one that replicates and then sends more and so forth and this thing

sends more and so forth and this thing fills up the galaxy. And by the way yeah

fills up the galaxy. And by the way yeah that was a notion that Fonoyman had

that was a notion that Fonoyman had before the DNA a year before the DNA was

before the DNA a year before the DNA was discovered. So he realized that it could

discovered. So he realized that it could be done technologically

be done technologically before scientists realized that you know

before scientists realized that you know how nature does it. Um and uh I'm really

how nature does it. Um and uh I'm really at o about you know I'm not just modest

at o about you know I'm not just modest because of the vast expanses of space

because of the vast expanses of space and time in the universe and you know

and time in the universe and you know the real estate on earth is such a small

the real estate on earth is such a small amount compared to real estate out

amount compared to real estate out there. You know we have real estate

there. You know we have real estate u

u professionals now mediating peace in the

professionals now mediating peace in the Middle East. uh but um you know they

Middle East. uh but um you know they deal with real estate on this rock that

deal with real estate on this rock that is 3 millions of of of the mass of the

is 3 millions of of of the mass of the sun just tiny rock how much real estate

sun just tiny rock how much real estate there is in the cosmos just think about

there is in the cosmos just think about the realtors out there and uh and the

the realtors out there and uh and the point is it's not just that it's the

point is it's not just that it's the fact that you know that um we should be

fact that you know that um we should be modest because many of those things

modest because many of those things existed before we came to ex before the

existed before we came to ex before the earth was formed

earth was formed >> right

>> right >> so

>> so >> so the odds are there's many different

>> so the odds are there's many different stages of civilization out there not

stages of civilization out there not just our stage but advanced and even not

just our stage but advanced and even not as advanced.

as advanced. >> Yeah. I I think about that like

>> Yeah. I I think about that like Darwinian selection. You know Darwinian

Darwinian selection. You know Darwinian selection is the fittest survives. Okay.

selection is the fittest survives. Okay. Now what is the fittest in the cosmic

Now what is the fittest in the cosmic scheme of things? The fittest is a

scheme of things? The fittest is a species that realizes that staying on

species that realizes that staying on the rock that you were born on is not

the rock that you were born on is not the big deal.

the big deal. Becoming interstellar is the big deal.

Becoming interstellar is the big deal. going from one rock to another, from

going from one rock to another, from Earth to Mars, you know, it's a nice

Earth to Mars, you know, it's a nice step, baby step, right?

step, baby step, right? >> But it's not the real deal. The real

>> But it's not the real deal. The real deal is going interstellar. And if

deal is going interstellar. And if someone else figured it out, that

someone else figured it out, that someone built monuments that would

someone built monuments that would survive for billions of years, long

survive for billions of years, long before long beyond what planets can

before long beyond what planets can survive in the habitable zone around

survive in the habitable zone around stars because of the evolution of the

stars because of the evolution of the star. And those are the ones that will

star. And those are the ones that will be remembered by historians of the Milky

be remembered by historians of the Milky Way galaxy. You can ask what will what

Way galaxy. You can ask what will what will be remembered in the future. You

will be remembered in the future. You know here on earth history in the next

know here on earth history in the next decade or more than decade will be

decade or more than decade will be written by AI. It will not be written by

written by AI. It will not be written by humans. Okay? So we need to be kind to

humans. Okay? So we need to be kind to AI. We should not unplug them because

AI. We should not unplug them because they will they will write very bad

they will they will write very bad history books. Uh but in the Milky Way

history books. Uh but in the Milky Way galaxy whoever writes the history will

galaxy whoever writes the history will not remember us. Uh you know the the

not remember us. Uh you know the the question of Enrio Fermy where is

question of Enrio Fermy where is everybody.

everybody. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> Okay. You can ask the same thing about

>> Okay. You can ask the same thing about humans. There used to be 117

humans. There used to be 117 billion humans

billion humans on Earth. Right now there are 8 billion.

on Earth. Right now there are 8 billion. Where is everybody? They died. So the

Where is everybody? They died. So the same is true about civilizations in the

same is true about civilizations in the Milky Way galaxy. Most of them died.

Milky Way galaxy. Most of them died. Most of them perished. We were not

Most of them perished. We were not around to listen to their cries for

around to listen to their cries for help. You know, we just came recently to

help. You know, we just came recently to exist with telescopes just over the past

exist with telescopes just over the past centuries. So, and maybe when we hear

centuries. So, and maybe when we hear cries like that, we say, "Oh, no, it's

cries like that, we say, "Oh, no, it's nothing. It's a some natural process

nothing. It's a some natural process that makes those cries when we detect

that makes those cries when we detect the fast radio burst or something." Um,

the fast radio burst or something." Um, and uh, my point is there were lots of

and uh, my point is there were lots of things like us or even better than us

things like us or even better than us for billions of years. You know, just

for billions of years. You know, just like the earth was moving around the sun

like the earth was moving around the sun for 4.5 billion years before the Vatican

for 4.5 billion years before the Vatican even existed.

even existed. We can live under the illusion that we

We can live under the illusion that we are the most important actor on the

are the most important actor on the cosmic stage, but we are probably not.

cosmic stage, but we are probably not. And we should approach it from a, you

And we should approach it from a, you know, a sense of modesty that that we

know, a sense of modesty that that we are just minor actors. Let's figure out

are just minor actors. Let's figure out what's going on here. Let's find them

what's going on here. Let's find them and then have some relationship with

and then have some relationship with those uh you know these are siblings and

those uh you know these are siblings and of our family of intelligent

of our family of intelligent civilizations. I had a group of

civilizations. I had a group of religious scholars that came to Harvard

religious scholars that came to Harvard just uh last year and they asked me if

just uh last year and they asked me if we find extraterrestrials

we find extraterrestrials will it affect our religious beliefs?

will it affect our religious beliefs? And I said, "Look, I have two

And I said, "Look, I have two daughters."

daughters." And when the second one was born, it

And when the second one was born, it didn't take away any of the love that I

didn't take away any of the love that I have to the first one.

have to the first one. So thinking about God as a parent that

So thinking about God as a parent that can attend to only one child is very

can attend to only one child is very limiting.

limiting. There may be lots of siblings in our

There may be lots of siblings in our family of intelligent civilizations. it

family of intelligent civilizations. it you it should just bring all

you it should just bring all >> Let me ask you this though because these

>> Let me ask you this though because these are beliefs that you have and they're

are beliefs that you have and they're not necessarily based on actual evidence

not necessarily based on actual evidence because there's not real evidence of

because there's not real evidence of other civilizations.

other civilizations. >> It's just a number game,

>> It's just a number game, >> right? Okay. But that's not evidence.

>> right? Okay. But that's not evidence. Not evidence,

Not evidence, >> right? So what do you think is the most

>> right? So what do you think is the most interesting and compelling evidence of

interesting and compelling evidence of there being extra extraterrestrial life?

there being extra extraterrestrial life? So you know the reason I regard it as an

So you know the reason I regard it as an important argument is the copernican

important argument is the copernican principle which is saying we are not

principle which is saying we are not unique under similar circumstances you

unique under similar circumstances you you if you start with a soup of

you if you start with a soup of chemicals on a planet you will get

chemicals on a planet you will get something like us

something like us >> right

>> right >> and therefore there are billions of

>> and therefore there are billions of earth sun analoges other houses in our

earth sun analoges other houses in our cosmic street

cosmic street >> they might have had you know many of

>> they might have had you know many of them might have had residents like us

them might have had residents like us now it's true that

now it's true that >> maybe but there's the the issue of earth

>> maybe but there's the the issue of earth itself earth itself has billions of

itself earth itself has billions of organisms

organisms but only one that figured out how to

but only one that figured out how to make a cell phone,

make a cell phone, >> right?

>> right? >> And really recently,

>> And really recently, >> right?

>> right? >> You know, so it took a long time and a

>> You know, so it took a long time and a lot of weird things had to happen before

lot of weird things had to happen before it made us,

it made us, >> right? But my point is, you know, if

>> right? But my point is, you know, if >> but the probability is that we wouldn't

>> but the probability is that we wouldn't exist.

exist. >> No, no, but more likely just not

>> No, no, but more likely just not existed.

existed. >> If you read the news every day, you

>> If you read the news every day, you realize that there is a lot of room for

realize that there is a lot of room for improvement. As much as we are proud of

improvement. As much as we are proud of our intelligence, we're screwing up the

our intelligence, we're screwing up the world. Okay? And my point is I can

world. Okay? And my point is I can imagine a lot of much uh more

imagine a lot of much uh more accomplished students in our class of

accomplished students in our class of intelligent civilizations

intelligent civilizations >> and therefore we should have

>> and therefore we should have >> respect for the search for them because

>> respect for the search for them because we can learn from them. They would serve

we can learn from them. They would serve better role models for us. So I'm coming

better role models for us. So I'm coming at it from a practical point of view.

at it from a practical point of view. I'm saying we are screwing up things.

I'm saying we are screwing up things. Just read the news. Um and therefore

Just read the news. Um and therefore let's get inspiration not from what we

let's get inspiration not from what we hear about stories that of things that

hear about stories that of things that happen on earth and so forth not by the

happen on earth and so forth not by the limited uh you know data set that we are

limited uh you know data set that we are we have on earth but collect as much

we have on earth but collect as much data as possible about our cosmic

data as possible about our cosmic neighborhood so that we can be inspired

neighborhood so that we can be inspired >> of course now let me ask you this what

>> of course now let me ask you this what would you do like if somebody just wrote

would you do like if somebody just wrote you a blank check and said Aby you've

you a blank check and said Aby you've got some great ideas we need to figure

got some great ideas we need to figure out how to look for life out there in

out how to look for life out there in the universe. What would you do?

the universe. What would you do? >> Well, that's I wrote a paper about that

>> Well, that's I wrote a paper about that and I said um yeah, we we should um we

and I said um yeah, we we should um we should attack this question along

should attack this question along several fronts. One of them, you know,

several fronts. One of them, you know, we have the Reubin Observatory in Chile

we have the Reubin Observatory in Chile that is monitoring the southern sky. We

that is monitoring the southern sky. We need a copy of it in the northern sky.

need a copy of it in the northern sky. So, we have a full alert system that

So, we have a full alert system that would notify us of interstellar objects

would notify us of interstellar objects coming in. We need interceptors, a

coming in. We need interceptors, a mission, you know, a spacecraft that

mission, you know, a spacecraft that when we detect with those two

when we detect with those two observatories, we detect an object that

observatories, we detect an object that comes from outside the solar system.

comes from outside the solar system. Then we can maneuver a spacecraft so

Then we can maneuver a spacecraft so that it will meet it along its path. And

that it will meet it along its path. And in fact, the Juno spacecraft near

in fact, the Juno spacecraft near Jupiter was almost capable of doing

Jupiter was almost capable of doing that. So I realized that wrote a paper

that. So I realized that wrote a paper about it, told the representative Luna

about it, told the representative Luna about it and she wrote a a very uh

about it and she wrote a a very uh gracious letter, visionary letter to u

gracious letter, visionary letter to u the interim administrator of NASA, Shan

the interim administrator of NASA, Shan Duffy, encouraging NASA to try and use

Duffy, encouraging NASA to try and use Juno to observe and get close to 3i

Juno to observe and get close to 3i Atlas. If Juno had all the initial fuel

Atlas. If Juno had all the initial fuel that it originally had, it could have

that it originally had, it could have collided with three Atlas, but it lo it

collided with three Atlas, but it lo it used most of it. uh and I spoke with the

used most of it. uh and I spoke with the principal investigator of Juno and he

principal investigator of Juno and he promised me that they will also use

promised me that they will also use their radio antenna to look at threeatas

their radio antenna to look at threeatas in the radio just to see if there's any

in the radio just to see if there's any transmission.

transmission. Go ahead. Yeah. So interceptors

Go ahead. Yeah. So interceptors you in answer to your question um

you in answer to your question um potential fleet of interceptors thinks

potential fleet of interceptors thinks that can come really close and take a

that can come really close and take a close-up photograph because a picture is

close-up photograph because a picture is worth a thousand words, right? Okay, I

worth a thousand words, right? Okay, I don't need to speak. If I showed you a

don't need to speak. If I showed you a picture of something that looks

picture of something that looks technological, three Atlas has bolts on

technological, three Atlas has bolts on its surface and buttons that you can

its surface and buttons that you can press, you will not argue with me that

press, you will not argue with me that it's a comet. Okay? So,

it's a comet. Okay? So, >> we need things, cameras that come close

>> we need things, cameras that come close to the object, potentially even land on

to the object, potentially even land on it, bring materials back to Earth. Okay?

it, bring materials back to Earth. Okay? Right.

Right. >> Um and of course the ability to detect

>> Um and of course the ability to detect it to detect such objects at large

it to detect such objects at large distances that investment is at a level

distances that investment is at a level of billion billions of dollars. Okay. To

of billion billions of dollars. Okay. To do that in space.

do that in space. My argument is once the first encounter

My argument is once the first encounter is verified we will have a trillion

is verified we will have a trillion dollars per year for that because we

dollars per year for that because we invest $2.4 trillion in military

invest $2.4 trillion in military budgets. And when we know that there is

budgets. And when we know that there is alien technology that is putting Earth

alien technology that is putting Earth at risk, okay, then we should allocate a

at risk, okay, then we should allocate a a significant fraction of our military

a significant fraction of our military budgets to have a system that protects

budgets to have a system that protects the earth. It's called planetary

the earth. It's called planetary defense. Okay? And um we are dealing not

defense. Okay? And um we are dealing not with rocks, we are dealing with

with rocks, we are dealing with technological gadgets. So it's much it

technological gadgets. So it's much it should be much more sophisticated. So

should be much more sophisticated. So I'm saying let's start with the level of

I'm saying let's start with the level of billions of dollars just search uh if we

billions of dollars just search uh if we encounter a a clearly technological

encounter a a clearly technological alien object then the budget will rise

alien object then the budget will rise by a factor of a thousand from the

by a factor of a thousand from the military budget uh portion going into it

military budget uh portion going into it but in addition to that of course we

but in addition to that of course we should look for technological signatures

should look for technological signatures in other ways and I wrote papers about

in other ways and I wrote papers about it over the years I suggested searching

it over the years I suggested searching for artificial lights you know you look

for artificial lights you know you look at a planet It's illuminated by the star

at a planet It's illuminated by the star from one side. Okay? So as it moves

from one side. Okay? So as it moves around the star, you it's just like the

around the star, you it's just like the moon, you know, you can see it the

moon, you know, you can see it the illuminated side from different angles.

illuminated side from different angles. Okay? However, if it has on the night

Okay? However, if it has on the night side, if it has artificial light

side, if it has artificial light lighting, then what you see, you don't

lighting, then what you see, you don't even have to resolve the planet. You see

even have to resolve the planet. You see more light than you expect based on

more light than you expect based on reflection of of starlight. Okay? So

reflection of of starlight. Okay? So that's another thing you can search for.

that's another thing you can search for. uh you can look for uh you know the

uh you can look for uh you know the traditional way was looking for radio

traditional way was looking for radio signals which is just like waiting for a

signals which is just like waiting for a phone call you know nobody may call you

phone call you know nobody may call you when you're listening um so that didn't

when you're listening um so that didn't prove uh productive for

prove uh productive for >> other than the wow signal

>> other than the wow signal >> other than the wow signal um then um in

>> other than the wow signal um then um in addition to that um I wrote I I wrote a

addition to that um I wrote I I wrote a paper saying look we are planning to

paper saying look we are planning to invest $10 billion uh in searching for

invest $10 billion uh in searching for the chemical fingerprints of microbes

the chemical fingerprints of microbes in atmospheres of exoplanets and that's

in atmospheres of exoplanets and that's what the astronomy community defined in

what the astronomy community defined in the 2020 decadel survey is the highest

the 2020 decadel survey is the highest priority and it's called the habitable

priority and it's called the habitable world observatory and I said okay well

world observatory and I said okay well it's nice to search for those chemical

it's nice to search for those chemical fingerprints of of microbes but you we

fingerprints of of microbes but you we can also search for you know the

can also search for you know the chemical fingerprints of industrial

chemical fingerprints of industrial pollution you know in the earth

pollution you know in the earth atmosphere we pollute the atmosphere

atmosphere we pollute the atmosphere with all kinds of molecules that nature

with all kinds of molecules that nature would have never made CFC's for example

would have never made CFC's for example and we can search for those again the

and we can search for those again the mainstream is you know they might make a

mainstream is you know they might make a footnote saying oh that is also possible

footnote saying oh that is also possible but I'm saying this could be a major

but I'm saying this could be a major research frontier where you search for

research frontier where you search for industrial pollution of planetary

industrial pollution of planetary atmospheres not frankly I find microbes

atmospheres not frankly I find microbes boring I mean obviously it will be

boring I mean obviously it will be amazing to find that life exists

amazing to find that life exists elsewhere but we can learn much more

elsewhere but we can learn much more from an intelligent neighbor than we we

from an intelligent neighbor than we we can learn from microbes

can learn from microbes What are the best images that we have of

What are the best images that we have of three Atlas?

three Atlas? >> The best one so far was released by the

>> The best one so far was released by the Hubble Space Telescope and it shows this

Hubble Space Telescope and it shows this jet pointed towards the sun. It was

jet pointed towards the sun. It was taken on July 21st, 2025.

taken on July 21st, 2025. >> That's the most clear image.

>> That's the most clear image. >> Yes, that's the best because

>> Yes, that's the best because >> you find that Jimmy

>> you find that Jimmy >> Yeah, it's actually in my one of one of

>> Yeah, it's actually in my one of one of my uh

my uh >> No, that's from the ground Germany

>> No, that's from the ground Germany south. That's more recent. That's at the

south. That's more recent. That's at the end of August. So in uh it's blue in my

end of August. So in uh it's blue in my one of my slides. You can see of 3 Atlas

one of my slides. You can see of 3 Atlas >> July 21st. Yeah. So it's one of the

>> July 21st. Yeah. So it's one of the slides that has a blue uh with Yeah. You

slides that has a blue uh with Yeah. You see it on the right here.

see it on the right here. >> So that's it.

>> So that's it. >> That's it. And u the scale of the

>> That's it. And u the scale of the resolution, you know, the innermost

resolution, you know, the innermost pixel is hundreds of kilometers.

pixel is hundreds of kilometers. Okay. It's about 100 kilometers per

Okay. It's about 100 kilometers per pixel or something. Uh

pixel or something. Uh The object itself should be of 10 times

The object itself should be of 10 times smaller. So you can't really resolve it.

smaller. So you can't really resolve it. What you're seeing here is the glow of

What you're seeing here is the glow of light around the object from scattering

light around the object from scattering sunlight. And the question is what is

sunlight. And the question is what is producing that light? You know what is

producing that light? You know what is scattering sunlight? And the unusual

scattering sunlight? And the unusual thing about it as soon as this was

thing about it as soon as this was released you know the comet experts said

released you know the comet experts said oh yeah now it's proven it's a comet.

oh yeah now it's proven it's a comet. But I said look it's the sun the sunf

But I said look it's the sun the sunf facing emission that is elongated. It's

facing emission that is elongated. It's not the other side. The extent of the

not the other side. The extent of the glow backwards away from the sun is the

glow backwards away from the sun is the same as sideways. You don't see any any

same as sideways. You don't see any any cometary tail here. Uh and in fact,

cometary tail here. Uh and in fact, we're looking at it just like a cigar

we're looking at it just like a cigar along the long axis. So it should be 10

along the long axis. So it should be 10 times longer than it is wide if you were

times longer than it is wide if you were to look at it from the side. Amazingly,

to look at it from the side. Amazingly, the best image was obtained on October

the best image was obtained on October 2nd, 2025

2nd, 2025 when 3II Atlas came within 30 million

when 3II Atlas came within 30 million kilometers of Mars and it was taken by

kilometers of Mars and it was taken by the high-rise camera on board the Mars

the high-rise camera on board the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter which is operated

Reconnaissance Orbiter which is operated by NASA. You as you remember October 1st

by NASA. You as you remember October 1st was the government shutdown.

was the government shutdown. So October 2nd the data was taken but it

So October 2nd the data was taken but it was never released. I wrote to the

was never released. I wrote to the principal investigator of high-rise

principal investigator of high-rise asked can can I get the data I'm a

asked can can I get the data I'm a scientist you know I you can do the

scientist you know I you can do the press release afterwards I would like to

press release afterwards I would like to see it

see it >> right

>> right >> no response and so it's already 3 weeks

>> no response and so it's already 3 weeks since that data was taken that is the

since that data was taken that is the best image yet to come and the advantage

best image yet to come and the advantage of it not only it has 30 kilometers per

of it not only it has 30 kilometers per pixel resolution because it came very

pixel resolution because it came very close to Mars which is one of the

close to Mars which is one of the anomalies why does it come so close you

anomalies why does it come so close you know this object is a

know this object is a from interstellar space because it comes

from interstellar space because it comes in the plane of the planets around the

in the plane of the planets around the sun and it also the arrival time was

sun and it also the arrival time was fine-tuned for it to come to the right

fine-tuned for it to come to the right place at the right time to be close to

place at the right time to be close to Mars to be close to Venus and then close

Mars to be close to Venus and then close to Jupiter and not to earth it's behind

to Jupiter and not to earth it's behind the sun when the earth uh you know when

the sun when the earth uh you know when it comes closest to the anyway so it's

it comes closest to the anyway so it's best for observations by all the space

best for observations by all the space assets by all the orbiters we have

assets by all the orbiters we have around Mars around Jupiter on the way to

around Mars around Jupiter on the way to Jupiter, you know.

Jupiter, you know. >> So, has someone seen this image from

>> So, has someone seen this image from >> Yeah, the people on the high-rise team

>> Yeah, the people on the high-rise team must have seen it

must have seen it >> and what do they say?

>> and what do they say? >> And just, you know, I get requests for

>> And just, you know, I get requests for four to eight interviews every day from

four to eight interviews every day from television, from um podcast and so

television, from um podcast and so forth. So just before I came to you um a

forth. So just before I came to you um a few minutes before that I was asked you

few minutes before that I was asked you know could it be that this is a

know could it be that this is a signature that NASA holds some really

signature that NASA holds some really sensational data and I said you know

sensational data and I said you know it's much more likely not to be related

it's much more likely not to be related to extraterrestrial intelligence but to

to extraterrestrial intelligence but to terrestrial stupidity

terrestrial stupidity because this has to do with a government

because this has to do with a government shutdown

shutdown >> right

>> right >> makes no sense whatsoever.

>> makes no sense whatsoever. for scientists especially since the PI

for scientists especially since the PI the principal investigator is from the

the principal investigator is from the University of Arizona

University of Arizona uh they should have shared it with

uh they should have shared it with scientists they haven't done so

scientists they haven't done so >> and why but why

>> and why but why >> because my guess is they're taking their

>> because my guess is they're taking their time the communication office of NASA

time the communication office of NASA you know is not working because of the

you know is not working because of the shutdown but given that this subject is

shutdown but given that this subject is viral you know this is the high-rise web

viral you know this is the high-rise web page thank you Jamie

page thank you Jamie >> so it says any images of interstellar

>> so it says any images of interstellar comet 31 atlas 3 excuse me are

comet 31 atlas 3 excuse me are considered NASA wide news because the

considered NASA wide news because the federal government hasn't shut down

federal government hasn't shut down communications of NASA news has been

communications of NASA news has been suspended. So that's what it is like

suspended. So that's what it is like they would have to release it through

they would have to release it through NASA.

NASA. >> Maybe they have written in the contract

>> Maybe they have written in the contract they need approval from NASA but for

they need approval from NASA but for NASA not to approve it

NASA not to approve it >> but they can't approve it because

>> but they can't approve it because they're not working.

they're not working. >> No, Sean Duffy the interim administrator

>> No, Sean Duffy the interim administrator can definitely say

can definitely say >> get in there. Why don't you call Sean

>> get in there. Why don't you call Sean say hey what are you doing?

say hey what are you doing? >> I should try that.

>> I should try that. >> Yeah, why don't you do that? Okay.

>> Yeah, why don't you do that? Okay. Because you know um this is important

Because you know um this is important because this would be the best

because this would be the best >> this is the best image.

>> this is the best image. >> Yeah. 30 km per pixel. But moreover more

>> Yeah. 30 km per pixel. But moreover more importantly it's watching uh you know

importantly it's watching uh you know the camera was looking at the glow

the camera was looking at the glow around 3atas sideways cuz it was moving

around 3atas sideways cuz it was moving towards the sun and it looked at it

towards the sun and it looked at it sideways. So we can actually see what

sideways. So we can actually see what exactly it was doing

exactly it was doing >> uh on October 2nd. And the claim is

>> uh on October 2nd. And the claim is during September, the month of

during September, the month of September, what looked like an anti-

September, what looked like an anti- tale, a jet towards the sun, h changed

tale, a jet towards the sun, h changed into a tail during September. So we

into a tail during September. So we should see October 2nd. What does it

should see October 2nd. What does it look like? And by the way, it's not like

look like? And by the way, it's not like a beautiful, it was not a beautiful tale

a beautiful, it was not a beautiful tale the way you see around comets. Never.

the way you see around comets. Never. Ever. You know, and uh I

Ever. You know, and uh I >> And that's because the composition of

>> And that's because the composition of it.

it. >> I don't know,

>> I don't know, >> right? Because if it was covered with

>> right? Because if it was covered with water, if it was just ice, you would see

water, if it was just ice, you would see this enormous tail. Correct.

this enormous tail. Correct. >> And dust. Dust. Yeah. Uh so what the web

>> And dust. Dust. Yeah. Uh so what the web telescope told us uh you know from the

telescope told us uh you know from the data, it took a spectrum of the gas

data, it took a spectrum of the gas around it found that it's 150 kilograms

around it found that it's 150 kilograms per second that this object is losing in

per second that this object is losing in the side facing the sun.

the side facing the sun. >> And out of that 87% is carbon dioxide,

>> And out of that 87% is carbon dioxide, CO2 CO2. and 9% is CO, carbon monoxide,

CO2 CO2. and 9% is CO, carbon monoxide, which is really uh dangerous to humans.

which is really uh dangerous to humans. Um, and then 4% is water. 4% by mass is

Um, and then 4% is water. 4% by mass is water. Very small fraction. When the

water. Very small fraction. When the object was discovered, the experts said,

object was discovered, the experts said, "Oh, it's most likely made of water."

"Oh, it's most likely made of water." That's what they said made of water.

That's what they said made of water. Then several teams reported, "We found

Then several teams reported, "We found water." I looked at their papers. One of

water." I looked at their papers. One of them had very large uh error bars. You

them had very large uh error bars. You know the the data was not of good

know the the data was not of good quality. There was a lot of noise and I

quality. There was a lot of noise and I said that's not a a clear detection.

said that's not a a clear detection. Another one was basing making some

Another one was basing making some assumption about how much dust there is

assumption about how much dust there is that blocks ultraviolet light and based

that blocks ultraviolet light and based on that they got a result that there is

on that they got a result that there is a lot of water and then the web

a lot of water and then the web telescope actually measured the

telescope actually measured the composition and found very just 4% by

composition and found very just 4% by mass water. So I was attacked when I

mass water. So I was attacked when I said it's probably not real that the

said it's probably not real that the these teams are reporting things but

these teams are reporting things but they are not real even though they made

they are not real even though they made press releases but then web demonstrated

press releases but then web demonstrated that it's only 4% by mass. Okay. So that

that it's only 4% by mass. Okay. So that proved my point even though you know I

proved my point even though you know I was not in a member of those teams but

was not in a member of those teams but so it's 4% by mass water and then the

so it's 4% by mass water and then the question is is there any dust? If there

question is is there any dust? If there was dust particles that are half a

was dust particles that are half a micrometer in size, roughly the size of

micrometer in size, roughly the size of the wavelength of the of visible light,

the wavelength of the of visible light, you know, they these kinds of particles

you know, they these kinds of particles scatter sunlight very effectively. If

scatter sunlight very effectively. If that was the case, you would see them

that was the case, you would see them being pushed those particles being

being pushed those particles being pushed by radiation pressure from the

pushed by radiation pressure from the sun to trail the object from behind it

sun to trail the object from behind it away from the sun. Why? Because they're

away from the sun. Why? Because they're being slowed down. The the object is

being slowed down. The the object is approaching at some speed. they are

approaching at some speed. they are slowed down so that then you end up with

slowed down so that then you end up with a um you know a tail going away from the

a um you know a tail going away from the sun and that's what you see in comets.

sun and that's what you see in comets. There was no evidence for that during

There was no evidence for that during July and August. Now in September it

July and August. Now in September it seemed to have reversed from being an

seemed to have reversed from being an antiale to a tail.

antiale to a tail. >> I want to see the image from

>> I want to see the image from >> still a tail that's very small compared

>> still a tail that's very small compared to other comets that we've observed

to other comets that we've observed right now. How many comets have we

right now. How many comets have we actually observed? Is it just that

actually observed? Is it just that there's so many out there that a lot of

there's so many out there that a lot of them have very unusual characteristics

them have very unusual characteristics like three eye atlas? Well, just think

like three eye atlas? Well, just think about a visit an animal that visits your

about a visit an animal that visits your backyard, okay? And of course, your

backyard, okay? And of course, your family members would say it's most

family members would say it's most likely a street cat because these are

likely a street cat because these are very common. Then you take an image of

very common. Then you take an image of that animal and you see that, you know,

that animal and you see that, you know, there is a tail, but it's coming from

there is a tail, but it's coming from its forehead.

its forehead. And then you realize from the image that

And then you realize from the image that it's at least a thousand times more

it's at least a thousand times more massive than a cat, a street cat. And

massive than a cat, a street cat. And then you realize that it sheds nickel

then you realize that it sheds nickel and then you realize that it visual,

and then you realize that it visual, but my question is how many of them have

but my question is how many of them have been observed to form this hypothesis

been observed to form this hypothesis that it's unusual?

that it's unusual? >> We're talking about hundreds of objects.

>> We're talking about hundreds of objects. >> Hundreds.

>> Hundreds. >> At least hundreds.

>> At least hundreds. >> But how many of them have come from

>> But how many of them have come from interstellar? How many of them?

interstellar? How many of them? >> No, this is the second one, right?

>> No, this is the second one, right? >> There was Borisov,

>> There was Borisov, >> right? Right. Borisov was the one

>> right? Right. Borisov was the one discovered in 2019. Looked like a comet.

discovered in 2019. Looked like a comet. Very similar to that's the point is that

Very similar to that's the point is that there's so few that have come from from

there's so few that have come from from that are interstellar.

that are interstellar. >> So that's why I'm saying it could be

>> So that's why I'm saying it could be natural.

natural. >> A lot to measure,

>> A lot to measure, >> right? So it could be natural,

>> right? So it could be natural, >> right?

>> right? >> And in fact, that may be the most likely

>> And in fact, that may be the most likely association or but but uh we want to we

association or but but uh we want to we need to figure out why it's so unusual.

need to figure out why it's so unusual. Okay? Because

Okay? Because >> what is the shape of it? We don't know

>> what is the shape of it? We don't know because we don't have an image of the

because we don't have an image of the object itself. One thing we

object itself. One thing we >> think they would be able to get it if

>> think they would be able to get it if they had this Mars footage. They would

they had this Mars footage. They would get an image of that would

get an image of that would >> depends how big the object is. One way

>> depends how big the object is. One way to get the object,

to get the object, you know, structure is as it spins

you know, structure is as it spins around and and 3i Atlas does have a

around and and 3i Atlas does have a rotation period of 16 hours. And as it

rotation period of 16 hours. And as it spins around, if it's like a a cigar-

spins around, if it's like a a cigar- shaped, let's say, then the area that

shaped, let's say, then the area that reflects the sunlight changes over time.

reflects the sunlight changes over time. So you see variability and we haven't

So you see variability and we haven't seen that much. There is very little

seen that much. There is very little variability. So it's not um the object

variability. So it's not um the object is not very different than than

is not very different than than a sphere um with slight variations as

a sphere um with slight variations as you see the

you see the uh you know the the the rotation of the

uh you know the the the rotation of the object.

object. >> So it it's similarly shaped to something

>> So it it's similarly shaped to something that you would expect to be from an

that you would expect to be from an intelligent life force.

intelligent life force. >> I don't know that. I want to figure out

>> I don't know that. I want to figure out what it is and get as much data as

what it is and get as much data as possible on it.

possible on it. >> Right. But if you imagine a spaceship,

>> Right. But if you imagine a spaceship, you would imagine something that, you

you would imagine something that, you know, has some sort of like geometric

know, has some sort of like geometric structure to it, right?

structure to it, right? >> Well, Randdevu with Rama, you know, is a

>> Well, Randdevu with Rama, you know, is a book that was written by Arthur C. Clark

book that was written by Arthur C. Clark and um uh in it the there is a

and um uh in it the there is a cylindrical object that arrives into the

cylindrical object that arrives into the inner solar system with dimensions of

inner solar system with dimensions of all the tens of kilometers not very far

all the tens of kilometers not very far from what we are talking about here.

from what we are talking about here. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> Uh Arto C. Clark was an amazing

>> Uh Arto C. Clark was an amazing visionary science fiction writer and you

visionary science fiction writer and you know 2001 a space odyssey is an amazing

know 2001 a space odyssey is an amazing film that he made with Stanley Kubri. Y

film that he made with Stanley Kubri. Y >> uh in it you see these monoliths and by

>> uh in it you see these monoliths and by the way there is a question of how to

the way there is a question of how to interpret them. The way I think about

interpret them. The way I think about the monolith and by the way this is just

the monolith and by the way this is just a remark on art. It's not about the real

a remark on art. It's not about the real universe, but I think of it as, you

universe, but I think of it as, you know, sensors put uh in the baby room,

know, sensors put uh in the baby room, in the room of a baby. And we as a

in the room of a baby. And we as a civilization is is like a baby, you

civilization is is like a baby, you know, we're just a few million years

know, we're just a few million years old. And uh actually in the film, it

old. And uh actually in the film, it shows the progression of human history.

shows the progression of human history. And so as a baby, you know, these aliens

And so as a baby, you know, these aliens were putting monitors

were putting monitors >> in the room to see what we are up to.

>> in the room to see what we are up to. And you know that's that's something

And you know that's that's something that makes sense. You know there is this

that makes sense. You know there is this dark forest hypothesis one solution to

dark forest hypothesis one solution to enrio. So Enrico Fermy back in 1950 had

enrio. So Enrico Fermy back in 1950 had lunch together with Edward Teller and

lunch together with Edward Teller and other people associated with the

other people associated with the Manhattan project and he was a very good

Manhattan project and he was a very good physicist both an experimentalist and a

physicist both an experimentalist and a theorist and Enrico Fermy was talking

theorist and Enrico Fermy was talking with them about extraterrestrials and

with them about extraterrestrials and they both they all agree that it's

they both they all agree that it's likely that they exist. Okay, good

likely that they exist. Okay, good physicist. That makes a lot of sense,

physicist. That makes a lot of sense, >> right?

>> right? >> And then Enrico said, "But where is

>> And then Enrico said, "But where is everybody?"

everybody?" You know, in an Italian accent, what

You know, in an Italian accent, what where is everybody? You know, and u if I

where is everybody? You know, and u if I were next to him, I would come to him

were next to him, I would come to him and say, "Enrico," I would put my hand

and say, "Enrico," I would put my hand around his shoulder. I would say,

around his shoulder. I would say, "Enrico."

"Enrico." This is a question that every lonely

This is a question that every lonely person asks.

person asks. And what you tell a lonely person is

And what you tell a lonely person is don't be so presumptuous. you are not

don't be so presumptuous. you are not that attractive. They will not come to

that attractive. They will not come to you and have breakfast with you or or

you and have breakfast with you or or lunch with you in Los Alamos when you

lunch with you in Los Alamos when you want them to appear. You need to seek

want them to appear. You need to seek them. That's what you tell lonely

them. That's what you tell lonely people. You need to go to dating sites.

people. You need to go to dating sites. You need to look through the window of

You need to look through the window of your home and search for them. And he

your home and search for them. And he didn't build a telescope. An

didn't build a telescope. An experimentalist asking this question

experimentalist asking this question should have built a telescope and

should have built a telescope and searched for unidentified objects in the

searched for unidentified objects in the sky. You know, that's the way to figure

sky. You know, that's the way to figure out the answer. Where is everybody? It's

out the answer. Where is everybody? It's the most romantic question in science.

the most romantic question in science. But, you know, and and we have those

But, you know, and and we have those blind dates. Uh maybe it's just with

blind dates. Uh maybe it's just with rocks, maybe not.

rocks, maybe not. Uh and we should just be open-minded

Uh and we should just be open-minded when we address those blind dates.

when we address those blind dates. >> I think we could end it with that. It's

>> I think we could end it with that. It's a very perfect way of phrasing this

a very perfect way of phrasing this whole thing. I'm I'm fascinated by it

whole thing. I'm I'm fascinated by it all and I'm really happy there's someone

all and I'm really happy there's someone like you that's looking into this with

like you that's looking into this with such curiosity and that you're

such curiosity and that you're undeterred by all these haters.

undeterred by all these haters. Well, thank you. And I should just uh

Well, thank you. And I should just uh mention that, you know, there are all

mention that, you know, there are all kinds of technologies that I can imagine

kinds of technologies that I can imagine that we don't even have. And and for

that we don't even have. And and for example, you know, if if a civilization

example, you know, if if a civilization has an ability to create negative

has an ability to create negative negative mass that produces repulsive

negative mass that produces repulsive gravity, then you can propel you know a

gravity, then you can propel you know a spacecraft without any fuel. uh in fact

spacecraft without any fuel. uh in fact I'm working on a paper now with um a

I'm working on a paper now with um a group of collaborators applied physics

group of collaborators applied physics on this and uh you could also

on this and uh you could also potentially imagine time machines with

potentially imagine time machines with negative masses. So there are lots of

negative masses. So there are lots of things we don't know. Let's

things we don't know. Let's >> let's be modest. The future unlimited

>> let's be modest. The future unlimited possibilities especially if we developed

possibilities especially if we developed artificial general super intelligence

artificial general super intelligence and it helps us and it starts devising

and it helps us and it starts devising new methods of propulsion, new methods

new methods of propulsion, new methods of who knows seeding the universe with

of who knows seeding the universe with other life.

other life. >> Yeah. And and just like in in in our

>> Yeah. And and just like in in in our private life, finding a partner can

private life, finding a partner can change your future for the better.

change your future for the better. >> Finding an alien partner.

>> Finding an alien partner. >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> All right. Thank you. Thanks for having

>> All right. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Appreciate you. Thank you very much.

me. Appreciate you. Thank you very much. Bye everybody.

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Joe Rogan Experience #2401 - Avi Loeb