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A Conversation with George R R Martin | A Celebration of the Targaryen Dynasty

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This content is a discussion between George R.R. Martin and David Anthony Durham about the "House of the Dragon" TV series, its source material "Fire & Blood," and the art book "Rise of the Dragon." They delve into the creative process, historical inspirations, and future projects related to Martin's work.

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welcome

and thank you for joining us uh here

tonight I am Dave and Anthony Durham

I've been instructed to pause at this point

point [Laughter]

[Laughter]

David is my partner in crime and our

host for tonight

I'm George Martin

of course R.R Martin

I should always include that yeah uh

Dave and I have known each other a few years

years um

I think I met him first at the world

fantasy convention in Saratoga exactly

where he displayed his courage because

we were doing the mass autographing

where all the authors sit all around the

ballroom and people line up to do them

and he was told by all his friends not

to sit beside me but he did sit beside

me anyway a Fearless fellow and then we

got to talking but

uh David is one of the rising stars in

uh Science Fiction and Fantasy uh and

other things he's written western novels

he's written uh of course fantasy The

Acacia Trilogy which is an Epic Fantasy

he's written uh historical fiction uh

novel about Spartacus a novel about Hannibal

Hannibal um

and he won a few years after Saratoga he

won the award for the best new writer in

science fiction the John W Campbell

award and got a handsome Tiara which uh

I think he wore for a year and and no

longer wears had to pass it on

um and at some point I was so impressed

by his stuff that I invited him to my

Wild Card shared World superhero

Anthology uh and he accepted that

without telling me that he'd never

written any short fiction before but uh

he he learned on the job and came up

with some some great characters for us

aided by his uh his son uh but we won't

talk about that

um and we've been working together on

that ever since and on on various other

things David has also been um

working on various aspects of uh

the television show

um Game of Thrones House of dragon the

various other Spinners were developing

he was uh he was in The Writer's room

for the uh the long night show which did

not go forward but he was one of the

people who was there he's been in some

of the other writers rooms for some of

the successor shows that we're uh we're

developing and

um yeah so we

we doing a lot of stuff together uh you

know wild cards and Westeros and uh this

that and the other thing so it's great

to be here doing this with you

absolutely uh I am thrilled to be here

really glad that I sat down

um and didn't listen to my friends

um because yeah it's been been a great

uh working and friendship um since then

thanks for that introduction too

okay so we're here with George who needs

no introduction obviously and um we're

in New York City here at random house

and we have a great program with various

segments we'll hear clips of the Fire

and Blood audiobook

and accompanied by illustrations from

the rise of the Dragon

George and I will discuss last night's

explosive season finale for House of the

dragon and talk about all things

Targaryen including a round of westerosi

would you rather

lastly we'll listen to George after as

many burning fan questions as he can

that's what we're doing and we have to

have commercials for these books at

various points these are books that we're

we're

hosting here and you notice there's two

of them uh Fire and Blood uh came out in

in 2018 and as the first volume of a two

volume history of House Targaryen from

um the end of the Regency of King aegon

III there will be a second book uh fire

and blood volume two um

or maybe blood and fire

um when when I get around to writing it

in my copious for a time

um this is the and that book or part of

that book is what house of dragons based

on this book is the new book rise of the Dragon

Dragon

that's uh just coming out

um in um tomorrow it's coming out

tomorrow I believe yes uh and it should

be available in your favorite local

bookstore from your onside Bookseller

this has the same

text kind of as that but uh much

Abridged because this is mostly as you

see a beautiful large coffee table art

book has 150 original pieces of art by

some of the best fantasy illustrators in

the world and we're going to show that

some of them to you during the course of

the evening and talk about them but um

with all that art we couldn't fit in the

whole gigantic thick uh so we we uh

Abridged it and uh you know did a just

the facts version

um so rise of the Dragon Fire and Blood um

buy them both but don't don't

read them right away because they have

the whole story of where

where the show ends and you just want to

read to the point

where it ended and then otherwise you'll

be uh spoiled I have some thoughts on

that but we'll get we'll get to those

okay get to those

um so first up on on the agenda is

House of the Dragon

um season season one the finale last night

night

um what did you think of that

um and two that's one and the part two

of that is that I know you had seen a

rough cut before but not the finished

version right and I'm wondering how

considerably different

I mean I've worked in television film

quite a while so it's not I've seen

rough Cuts before but um you know if uh

the special effects

color timing sound adjustment all of

these things make a huge difference

so you know seeing the big dragon battle

that was the highlight of last night's thing

thing

in a rough cut is kind of uh yeah not

not quite the same right that's an

amazing sequence they did last night

with the storm and the you know the

dragons appearing and disappearing in

the clouds and uh you know that that's

the magic of special effects the magic

of cinematography and it it's uh

considerably considerably different yeah

although my favorite

um I saw many of the episodes in a rough

cut ahead of time do you remember the uh

um I think it was episode three with a

king went hunting and he was hunting for

a a white heart

and uh they find a heart which is not

actually white

um but he

he deals with that heart

um well in the rough cut the part of the

heart was played by two stuntmen in in

uh bright blue costumes the Blue Man

Group uh sort of one of them was uh

holding the other one around the waist

and uh you know the king is

stabbing at them with us so the king is

hunting the Blue Man Group

um it was hilarious when you saw it but

of course by the time it was finished it

was a beautiful realistic looking art so

you have to get used to if you work in

this business

to know what uh what a rough cut is and

being able to visualize what the final

version would be amazing I mean do you

ever think we could

there could be a special where we get to

see some of these rough Cuts like they

did for Lord of the Rings and stuff like that

that

I don't know I don't know I think

they may um

at some point do uh you know a Blu-ray a

DVD and when they do that they often add

special features now what kind of

special features they add well they

there are deleted scenes in many of the

episodes so we could add back to deleted

scenes and that's something that they

frequently like to do sometimes there

are blooper reels where actors walk into

a wall or they forget to line or they do

something uh similar

um you know you could add something like

that I don't know they would do the Blue

Man Group though I think the sprinkle

effects Wizards like to like magicians

like I don't want to reveal these things

yeah they like to like to keep that

secret right

and the the episode itself and and how

it wraps up the first season oh

I just saw

we've been working this for on on a long

time so I knew where we were going we

would wrap up the season

yeah I think it did it very powerfully

uh very powerfully and uh

now we just have to do it again for

season two which is uh also a challenge

because everything gets bigger and more

characters come into play and

um we we switched to more locations I

mean the first season we were pretty much

much

King's Landing yeah

Dragonstone driftmark were the main

locations occasionally we went to the

stepstones for a little battle and

Dragon action or to Storm's end but

mostly it was centered on that but now

as things get serious you'll be going to

uh you know other locations uh um

Winterfell and the Starks and uh you

know possibly

um the riverlands harrenhal all of these

places will be seen more families and

Dragons will come into it and it just

gets bigger so and you're saying all

this we have to wait

wait to see that sadly yes you have to

wait you have to probably have to wait

until uh 2024.

2024.

because I don't think this show is so

big I don't think we can have it ready

uh next year in 2023 you know came on in

August so ideally we would the new

season would come on in August of a year

later but it's too big we can't do it

that now it may not be a full two years

maybe it come 2024 we'll be able to

bring it on in like April or May instead

of August but I don't think it's much

chance it's going to be before that right

right

well I thoroughly enjoyed the show

and watched a number of episodes twice

and and then just just the other day my

wife and I went back to

um to the to the first season uh to the

first episode

um and I felt like wow we have been

through a lot I mean I guess it's the

years passing and all the events it was

almost like I was being reminded that

this journey it had been quite a journey

basically even though it's not it's not

particularly far flown

um but in re-watching them I recommend

it to folks

um the the episodes I think each one

gets gets better as I rewatch it um were

you uh troubled by the time jumps and

the the castings as some people say they were

were

I wouldn't say troubled

um it the feeling is this that I wish

that we could have spent more time with everything

everything

um and and yeah and seeing some of the

the relationships develop there

um so I would love for it to be to be slower

slower

but that's not like I'm not really

troubled because I also respect and

understand can see the decision-making

process that went into into those choices

choices

how about you it's always an interesting uh

question I mean you know maybe you may

have to

deal with it yourself someday I mean

your Hannibal novel for example what if

they made a feature film of Hannibal or

a TV series it's in development he has a

long life where do you begin it did you

have a little child Hannibal does he

grow up or do you already have him

being fully fleshed going forth to

battle in I guess Spain initially and

winning that invading Italy but that

took years he campaigned in Italy for

like a decade or something like that

right oh yeah yeah and long time periods

then he got called back to to fight the

Battle of Zama and then he had to run

away and he lived in exile for a while

how do you present all that what format

do you uh do you do and it's a challenge um

um so

anything that's a lengthy period of time

I think you have your your choice where

to begin it and uh if there are things

that come before it do you present them

in dialogue do you present them in terms

of flashbacks or dreams or do you do the

chronological thing and let the years

pass and which does occasionally call

for recasting yeah yeah

as I watched watch the show

um I was impressed again and again by

when a decision by by the decisions that

needed to be made I could kind of again

and again each episode

um I could see that it was all quite

deliberate you might lose something over

here but but you're gaining something

over there what do you think you know

maybe time jumps aside were some of the

hardest decisions to make and and

approaching the show

well I mean the hardest decision uh to

to make was uh the one I've just alluded

to is is where to begin I mean history

is continuous A Fire and Blood well both

books actually and this one longer than

that one

um present the history of Targaryen

Dynasty largely starting with any detail

in aegon's Conquest

um which is when aegon the conquer and

his two sisters started taking over

Westeros now actually there's history

before that

um you know Anar the Exile and his

daughter Danny's the dreamer who for

slow the Doom of Valeria came to

Westeros and and moved into Dragon so

I'm like a century earlier and then they

they had children and they died and the

children became the Lords and you know

there was a number of generations that

are listed there but I don't go into any

detail about them until I get to aegon

and vicenya and rhaenys and their Three Dragons

Dragons um

and then there's you know there's

aegon's Conquest you know we could have

began then we could have begun uh you

know with with aegon and not even

reached the dance of the dragons for you

know Five Seasons or something because

you there's a lot of history is continuous

continuous

one of the things that uh inspired uh me

to do Fire and Blood um

was a a popular history book that I read

way back in the 50s by Thomas B castain

uh who was a very popular historical

novelist of the period

um and he mostly wrote historical

fiction but he did write a four volume

history of the plantagenets and uh it it

starts from the beginning in a

plantagenet family and it goes all the

way through the uh the end of the

plantation which was the worst of the

Roses when they were exterminated by the

uh the Tudors um

so that's one way to do things I mean

history just goes on and on we we see

these uh

these shows um

movies television shows books that have

a have a beginning a middle and end okay

here's a book about William the

Conqueror and that's right William the

conquer was born William the Conqueror

dies but no he's part of a you know

there was someone before William the

Conqueror he had a father he had a

mother where did they come from me he

had a father and mother and after

William mccawker died

there are more things there's all the

stories of his children so

and who gets to be king after him um

so that was the big challenge now we knew

knew

around 2016 it became clear that uh

Game of Thrones was was going to end um

probably with seven seasons as it

happened at seven grew and it became

eight but at that point HBO started said

well what do we we need a a new show and

I pitched him two shows one of them was

uh the Duncan egg show which uh they

didn't didn't pick up on but I pitched

them to dance to the dragons which I

already knew about I'd already written

about to some extent

um in some novellas and in the world of

ice and fire history book another

Illustrated coffee table like that and

they like that so uh we were we were

going with uh

the dance of the dragons and we've been

developing it um you know since 2016. in

one form or another

um there were a couple other writers on

the show before Ryan Condell

um came on and Ryan of course has done a

amazing job but one of the big issues

with all of these writers was

where to begin yeah where to begin do

you begin with aegon's Conquest that's a

long time ago do you begin with uh well

you saw the show you saw where Ryan

began and I think he made a great choice

he began in 101

with the great Council where the Lord's

vote that your Harris's Heir he's just

lost his son Balon who has died of appendicitis

appendicitis so

who is his Heir now and they choose the

Lord's vote to choose viserys over rainey's

rainey's

um and then you immediately skip forward

it's just that one prologue scene and

then you skip forward to

skip over to Harris's death skip over

all that viserys has been in power for a

number of years and you pick it up with

the tournament the conflict with Damon

that the birth of

his male Heir and of course it turns

into a horror when his wife Emma Queen

Emma dies and the child dies a day later

and raniera is declared air you you

recall all of that to him I do indeed but

but

I don't know if I should reveal this

maybe I should wait for a

Blu-ray or something after the show but

that was not you know handed down by uh

some some muse from ancient Greece we

myself and the other writers had a lot

of Spirited discussions about where to

uh where to begin that story one of the

writers wanted to be in it uh later

wanted to begin it essentially with Emma

dying so skip the great Council skip the tournament

tournament

a scream sounds out Emma is dead

that's where you begin

um so that was one possibility uh and

another uh of the writers wanted to be

an even later than that to begin with viserystein

viserystein

so you open act one scene one viserys's

uh and what happens there well then you

have to present all that material in

flashbacks or dialogue that becomes

challenging too

um but we discussed all these

possibilities and the other possibility

we discussed which is actually my

favorite possibility but nobody liked it

except me

um I would have began it

much earlier

I would have began it like 40 years earlier

earlier

with an episode I would have called the

air and the spare in which

Harris's two sons Eamonn and Balon are

alive and we see the

friendship but also the Rivalry between

the two

sides of the of the great house and then

you know amen dies accidentally when a

door a mirish crossbowman shoots him by accident

accident

um on Tarth and then Harris has a side

who becomes

the new Air is it

the daughter of the older

son who's just died or is it the second

Son who's only you know has children of

his own and is a man and she's just a

teenage girl you know all of that stuff

so you could have presented all of that

stuff but then you would have had 40

more years and you would have even more

time jumps and you would have even more

recastings and uh yeah I was the only

one who was really enthused about that

I've always loved

poetry of Roderick Kipling and I I love

his uh

poem in the Neolithic age where the

refrain is there there are nine and

sixty ways of constructing tribal lays

and every single one of them is right

and I think that's true for writing

books or television shows there are many

ways you can approach these things and

if you do it well

it it can work

well throughout all this we're kind of

indirectly indirectly talking about Fire

and Blood and there's so much material

in this about the targaryens

but could you just introduce introduce

the book and and your approach to it

it's a history book but there's a lot of

different versions of things and you

know yes well of course as you know I'm

writing and have been writing for many

decades now A Song of Ice and Fire which

is uh

the the series of books that was the

basis of Game of Thrones

uh and there's still two more books to

do and those are you know conventional

novels so they're very very ambitious

and complex novels because they have

multiple Viewpoint characters I'm

interweaving all of the different

stories essentially I'm writing you know

7 9 12 novels and interweaving them

together but they are conventional

novels each chapter has a Viewpoint

character and you you see it through that

that

when it became clear that uh we were

going to do the

Dance of the dragon show but that

ultimately became House of the Dragon

but initially we called it Dance with Dragons

Dragons um

we wanted a book to go with that and I

already had the seeds of the book from

material that was in the world of Ice

and Fire and from the novellas I'd

written for my friend Garden Princess

and the queen and the Rogue Prince and

so forth um

so I actually asked we're in the the

Offices here and I'm I'm about to get

them in terrible trouble but I asked

them well what to do you want me to just

ignore the new show that's coming down

the pike or should I finish that book so

you can get it out and then go back to

and they said yeah give us the the new

book that's closer to being done you

should have two more books so I I put

Winds of Winter aside for a while and I

concentrated on finishing Fire and Blood

there was a lot of it already there but

I had to expand it and polish it and

particularly I had to fill in the reign

of joharis because if you look at the

earlier versions he was reigned for 55

years but he was a good King and so

pretty much all I said well he was a

good King and they were half a century

of peace and prosperity well nobody

wants to read that that's boring so I

had to uh I had to

you know flesh all that out and write a

material under Harris and I did and that

came out in uh in in 2018 uh and then I

switched immediately back to uh you know

when when's winter right

you mentioned 2018 I

I read it in 2018 shortly after it came out

out

and it was you know quite an experience

um so much history so many names so many

births and deaths and um and betrayals

and every now and then someone does

something nice I guess it was an awful

lot of it and I loved it but it was also

kind of overwhelming

thing is

that that really kind of set me up to

enjoy watching House of the Dragon

um because all this name or some of

those names became actual you know people

people

actors who did amazing jobs and you know

I could connect with them yeah I love

our actors yeah so so for me having read

it um ahead of time was kind of a

pleasure because every now and then I

would go oh I

I know that just set up something that's

going to happen later on and I was kind

of being reminded of it

um and I feel like it's

yes you could you could like not read

Fire and Blood but I think you don't

lose anything because you're also there

are various versions of a lot of events

um in the book but you still don't know

what what's what's going to be on the

show yes and but I had a lot of fun

writing that book um I hope it was fun

for the readers too I think it was fun for

for

many of the readers but not all there

are people who wanted a conventional

model oh sure but um you know if you

look at A Song of Ice and Fire the main

series that I'm writing um

I still have two more books to write and

the series is only covering a handful of

years the events of a handful of years

to cover

two and a half centuries

I would have had to write 20 novels of

you know aegon the Conqueror and his two

sons and major the cruel and this revolt

and that Revolt

um it would have taken me a long time

I'm not the fastest writer in the world

um so I decided to do it

um as a as a fake history you know model

to a great degree on what Thomas B

costain did with his plantagenist

history and then the other thing that

got me going was the thought of

of history and how history is uh is

recorded to us and the thing is we don't

you know we think we know history but we

don't we don't have time machines we

rely on the people who pass it down to

us and there are often contradictions

um I I that was really brought home to

me many decades ago when I was writing

uh a novel never published about the

yellow journalism in New York City in

in the 1890s and it was uh you know it

was a great era there were 14 daily

newspapers in New York I was writing a

story sort of a historical horror novel

about three reporters competing for uh

for a big story tracking down a killer

and one of them was a reporter for the

New York world

Joseph pulitzer's New York World which

was one of the dominant papers of the

time and the world was down on newspaper

row all of the newspapers were on like

the same block but Pulitzer built the

tallest building in the world

time and he topped it with a golden dome

and it stood right next to the sun which

was a rival paper and uh the editors

didn't like each other so people joked

it from his golden dome Pulitzer could

spit down on the sun um

but the thing is when I'm researching

this book and I there was no internet

then so I had I had gathered every book

I could do about journalism the period

and life of Pulitzer and life of

everything and I'm researching it a very

simple question

how many stories

was the World building it's the tallest

building in the world it's a famous

building and I encounter

two different versions it had 15 stories

it had 14 stories and then I tried to

dig more into some 14 to some 50 and

then I encounter one that said at 20

stories say what the hell the building

doesn't exist anymore I don't have a

time Travel how many store stories did

it have it's a simple fact and then you

go from that and you you look at the history

history and

and

history is full of wonderful stories you

know I draw a lot in evil history but

you know Edward the second

um deposed as king of England by his own

son and imprisoned and then murdered

supposedly by having a red hot poker

or really or did someone invent that

story later it's very colorful but the

things are that is probably invented

later and then the uh the black dinner

Scotland which was one of the sources

for the the Red Wedding you know that

the King of Scotland invites the Earl of

Douglas to Black Douglas and his son his

brother who had two teenagers one of

them is like 18 one of them is like 16

to a dinner at uh at his castle and they

have a lavish dinner and then at the end

they bring out a big covered

plate silver platter and a a gloomy

sonorous song begins to do when they

lift the they lift a plate and it's a

black Boar's Head which is the symbol of

death and then they take out the two

douglases and murder them

very much inspired you know the red

wedding or they did it but did it ever

happen probably not uh yes the

douglasses were certainly killed but was

there any was there a song was there but

they made it better you know some later

thing made it better so that got me all

thinking all of this stuff got me

thinking about history and saying I'm

not just going to do a history I'm going

to do a history written a couple hundred

years later and you know when you're

writing a book I'm sure you you do this

with yours work too you know you have an

idea for a scene

have a different idea for saying oh

which one should I go with I'll go with

this one I'll go with that one well that

one's too wild people never believed

I'll go with that you tend to go with

the conservative scene but with that

kind of thing I could have it both ways

I could say this is how septon Eustis

said it went and this is how Grandmaster

Orwell said it went and this is how

mushroom said it went

and you pick which one because we don't

know yeah exactly gildane doesn't know

and we don't know you don't know really

the truth about Hannibal or Spartacus in

the books you've written about them how

much how much of your historical fiction

is in fact made up

compared to your fantasy it's it's kind

of amazing that I can feel very proud

um let's say of

um pridal Carthage the Hannibal novel

and also know know that

he probably didn't speak one complete

sentence of the dialogue that I I gave

him right like it's it's and yet I'm

hoping that it still captures the story

and speaks to readers but that the inter

the way that fantasy and history

um intermingle and inform each other I

think is is amazing when I was writing

that book

um I was trying to I was driving around Spain

Spain

um with my wife and my kids we're

camping a lot I was drinking a lot a lot

of nice wine and we're taking in

um you know ruins and yeah we were doing research

research

um but I kept realizing that the place

that I needed to write about

it wasn't there anymore like I'd go to a

room go to a ruin and it was you know it

was the Roman ruin but then it was like

medieval ruin and it was it was a modern

City built on it and everything so it

kind of had to

to you know lean in to using my

imagination and I think that happened

happening with with pride of Carthage is

probably kind of opened some doors that

led me to inevitably toward fantasy um

I love historical fiction uh as well as

science fiction fantasy and I read a lot

of historical fiction

but there's a line and I would be very

hard-pressed to Define it I mean

sometimes I pick up a a novel of

historical fiction and there's something

in it that I just know is wrong it just

jars me right from the beginning and it

you know it gets me it puts me right out

of it you know I'm reading a Julius

Caesar novel and it turns out he has a

twin brother well

so I don't want to read about that

nothing more

um but other things I'll I'll let people

get away with um you know frequently I

don't know but

I mean I love I love one of my great influences

influences

um in television is I Claudius which of

course is based on the I Claudius BBC

series is based on the uh Robert Graves

novels I Claudius and Claudius de God

which in turn is based on the history of

swetonius and swartonius lived hundreds

of years after the events he was

recording he was just and he was the

mushroom of his time and he never nobody

ever died in swetonius of natural causes

everybody was poisoned or murdered or

something like that but it certainly

makes her a lively uh read yeah okay

okay

um we could keep talking

but now let's do something silly oh dear um

I have a few questions here of the would

you rather

um variety so let's play that

would you rather be a maester or join

the kingsguard I would rather be a

maester of course I mean uh they're at

the city of books I could read all day

and write all day history which is

pretty much what I like and the

kingsguard I would have to address an

armor it's very hot and uncomfortable

and wear white all the time it really

gets dirty uh very hard to keep that

white armor and the white cloak clean

and both of them take vows of Chastity

so I I wouldn't get any wives or

girlfriends in either case so might as

well go with the maester okay

I think I know what you'll what you'll

see about this one but then again these

two things are actually quite different

would you rather have a dragon or a direwolf

well that's an interesting that's an

interesting question too um

the dragon has certain advantages number

one it is you can fly

and I would love to uh be able to fly as

a kid you know I read superhero comics I

I I didn't want to be Batman swinging on

a rope by wanted to be Superman and

flying through the skies and all of that

stuff flying is a primal dream so yeah

flying on a dragon and being able to

burn the hell out of my enemies that's

useful too

um on the other hand uh the direwolves

are friendlier than the dragons and uh

you know they're they're you know like

big Shaggy

dogs and uh there was probably more of a

close and affectionate um

bond between them and uh I would like to

have a direwolf right now at my house in

in Santa Fe we moved into a new house a

while ago it's a beautiful house and it

has a little kind of waterfall in the

back and a whale and has a couple pools

beautiful pools and uh

I stock those pools with koi because I

thought that would be cool and the

raccoons ate all of my koi but if I had

a direwolf those damn raccoons would

they would indeed would you rather have

the Hound or the mountain play defense

for the New York Giants uh you got to go

with the Hound I mean a mountain is

bigger and he's fierceo but he would get

constant penalties for on sportsmanlike

conduct and uh you know terrible things

like that you're not allowed to rip the

head off opponents or pop their eyes out

with your thumbs that's definite no no

we have progressed in some ways over here

here

um would you rather have Tywin Lannister

or Otto Hightower as your hand oh

oh boy

boy

I don't know I can't have Tyrion on this

that was not one of the options um

I think Tywin

but it's hard they're similar types

they're both pretty smart

okay would you rather freeze to death be

on the wall

Ah that's another tough one

I can't die the way Tyrion wanted to die

oh that's a Pity uh I can't say how he

wanted to die but it's in the books read

the books he's asked that question uh by

Shaka son of Dolph um

I think

freezing fire is supposed to be a really

really painful way to die yeah I've

always heard

yeah and that that brings me back

slightly to the the dragon or direwolf question

question

do you think it's possible to have to

have a dragon

and and live a benevolent life like

would you inherently get pulled into

well that's an interesting question too

and uh it's a question if I may

Verge away from medieval history and metaphor

metaphor

to the current reality we we live in

uh you know it's often been said that

the dragons are the nuclear weapons of

my imaginary world

they are the most devastating weapon and

they cause great destruction

uh massive loss of life um

but they're not necessarily you know I

mean this is part of Danny's storyline

and the original novels I mean Danny

Danny has three dragons and she can

destroy these cities like Marine where

she finds herself Queen but doesn't mean

she can necessarily rule them easily

without destroying them so when do you

do that and

we I grew up I'm a I'm a baby boomer

born in 1948 and growing up in the 50s

there was always the the Specter of

nuclear war I mean I lived through the

Cuban Missile Crisis and Khrushchev and

uh you know saber rattling and you know

all of the books about the nuclear

Holocaust about Armageddon um you know

what would what was going to happen we

we were worried about that actually

there's nuclear weapons have only been

used twice in all of history um

and they've been used

on Hiroshima and Nagasaki

um afterwards there was a long period

where only America had uh nuclear

weapons nobody else in the world had them

them um

and there were people believe it or not

like your science fiction fan you know

who Robert a Heinlein was yep Heinlein

the the dean of Science Fiction a

fascinating guy because his his politics

a lot of people think of him as

conservative because of where he got in

the end of his life but earlier when he

was a young man he he ran he was sort of

a socialist he ran there for office in

California on up in Sinclair's platform

and he actually advocated in letters

that you can find that uh at the end of

at the end of World War II

when only America had the atomic bomb he

said America should give the atomic bomb

to the newly formed United Nations and

it should be prohibited to all other

countries so we would have a world government

government

and only the United Nations would be

able to uh enforcing and can you imagine

if that had actually been done what a

very very different world that we would

live in maybe not one that we would like

but is there

and thereafter there was always these

concerns about uh

you know well we can win any of these

wars you know why did

I mean MacArthur and some other people

wanted to use the atomic bomb in in

Korea in the Korean War

um you know and when China invaded uh

well that's why are we letting them do

that we could win the war of course by

the end of the Russians I think had a

tube or

Barry Goldwater in 1964 election way why

are we you know why we fighting this war

in Vietnam let's just drop a nuke on uh

Hanoi or at least that was the charge

but we

we never did it we always refrained we

were we were the the dragon writers who

would not use our dragons although we

would kind of use them to intimidate

them except now more and more countries

have that we've tried

a nuclear non-proliferation but you know

Britain got them Soviet Union got them

Britain got them France got them

um then it went to India and Pakistan

and uh North Korea for God's sakes and

uh Iran is trying to get them and

there's always the rumors that Israel

has them that's more of our countries

get this I I think

the danger becomes greater and greater

someday someone is going to use them and

right now the danger is very high I mean

you can turn on the news every day is

Putin losing the war in Ukraine is he

going to resort to nukes and then the

question becomes

what if he does

Putin resorts to nukes does America

unleash its dragons

or do we

not and let him get away from it these

are these are profound questions we

could debate this for an hour with a

panel of political scientists and things

like that and it's not a not an easy

answer to yeah

okay yeah we're not gonna come up with

the answer

um we can talk about rise of the Dragon

though sure

um and in particular

uh the visuals the artwork in it we're

gonna we're gonna take a look at some

um but there are quite a number of of

artists um who contribute to it right

like how many or well it's 150 illustrations

illustrations

um not 150 different artists but many

many different artists from all around

the world

um very well known fantasy artists and

and artists you've never heard of before

right uh but my my uh Team here at

random house and 10 speed press which is a

um a imprint help put them together in

consultation with Ray golden who is my

own one of my assistants and my art

director and there's some spectacular

work there absolutely I've always loved

um you know I'm I'm

again a baby boomer and some of the

books that I had when I was quite young

were Illustrated books um I'm

particularly thinking of things like

Treasure Island and

um King Arthur and his Knights they were

illustrated by amazing artists like NC

Wyeth and Howard Pyle men of iron Howard

Pyle gorgeous books and I they imprinted

on me at an early age and I always loved

Illustrated books

by the time I started publishing my own

books though nobody was doing

Illustrated books anymore they were too

especially the big fancy ones with the

color plates they were too expensive

um and it was felt they wanted to keep

prices down but fortunately as the years

went by my books became more popular

suddenly small presses began to appear

and saying well we'd like to do a small

limited edition and I said well I want I

want to illustrate it so we started

doing more and more Illustrated books

and now even we're having the the you know

know

Maine this this book is is full of uh

tons of black and white illustrations by

Douglas Wheatley and this one has uh as

I have many different artists 150

illustrations many in color

um and I I love it and we also do an

annual uh

ice and fire calendar

um that is uh usually one artist doing

12 or 13 pictures sometimes uh multiple

artists right each doing one okay well

let's take a look at some of these

images I believe I can present a field

of fire Conquest

and we can take a look at it here and

the visual will come up for people so

Field of Fire

um what can you say about this and well

the field and fire of course was one of

the major battles of aegon's Conquest

and uh you know aegon the Conqueror had

a Dragon balerion the black dread and

his two sisters were also his wives also

had dragons and when the conquest was on

they largely split up and they went to

different places and fought different

battles subduing Lords but in the field

of fire the the king in the west

and the king of the reach

joined forces and those are two very

rich and populist things so they

assembled a vast Army and they marched

to meet aegon um

and wiped him out his army was many many

times smaller he'd he'd conquered a few

of the Lesser Lords and who would then

bent the knee and joined him but he

could not match the number of nights and

all that that they had

but he did have the Three Dragons yeah

and even that is uh you know nuclear

metaphors aside even that might not have

been sufficient because

you know that dragon is like a giant

flamethrower they can you know shoot out

a bolt of fire but if you have 50 000

people how many can

one bolt of fire pit you know but the

big factor and the big mistake that the uh

the Lords the kings of the region Iraq

made was uh

a dry period they were crossing

grasslands with tall grasses on either

side they were of course their horses

were trampling down them but they were

surrounded by this tall very dry grass

and aegon and his sisters not only

burn the knights but they set fire to

the grass behind them and on either side

of them and the whole field went up in

you know walls of flame there was no way

out or very hard way out

um so it was a total route and a victory

wiped out the gardeners entirely who

were the kings of the reach and the

Lannisters some of them survived and had

to bend the knee all right

so reflective of history as well and

warfare and how much the use of of the

of the of the landscape and well yes

that's the landscape is very important

and you know I do love uh as I say I

love reading history I love reading

historical fiction um

and real medieval battles um the

military history is also fascinating to me

um you know a movie like a Braveheart

um I enjoyed Braveheart but you know

historically it's it's um they're taking

stuff from that centuries apart and

putting in together um

what to really want the thing in

Braveheart that really got me and

practically had me foaming in the aisles

is when they did the Battle of Sterling

which of course was the Battle of

Sterling bridge bridge was absolutely

essential to the Battle of Sterling and

the whole strategy and the Victory uh

depended on this bridge and the river

and they took all that out and it was

just a lot of guys in a field running at

each other and that's what was not right

right so you have to take the ground you

know I don't care if you're talking

you know Gettysburg or uh Zama or Kanai

or any of these Great Battles of History

the the uh Battle of Hastings uh yeah

you've got to know the landscape

okay let's take a look at another one

not a landscape but aegon the second and

the iron throne

that is an amazing Iron Throne

although I'm not quite sure what the

there seems to be a second iron throne

off to the

off to the side of it

um but yes that is a very large Iron Throne

Throne um

there is one that I like even better

which is the the mark Simonetti Iron

Throne that he did um I I believe for

the world of Ice and Fire I work with

him and uh we consulted a lot on that

you know they've been

obviously no Iron Throne exists uh I

made it up um but the the version that

HBO did became very iconic and you know

was used in the show for many years and

there were many replicas about it that

showed up at uh various conventions and

promotional events I've sat in it right

right and and I have one in my backyard um

but it's much smaller than the one in

the books the one in the book says not

symmetrical and it's it's huge it's

described as a giant special thing not

built by furniture designers but by

blacksmiths just hammering swords

together with dragon fire

um and there's steep steps that go up to

it so the King has to climb all the way

up he's sitting like 10 feet above

everybody else looking down on it which

the symbolism of that is very powerful

um but when you make a a motion picture

or a television show there are practicalities

practicalities

and that was what uh

you know HBO encountered very early back

in 2010-2011 you know they had a a

throne room in Ireland which they had uh

gotten from actually a previous movie it

was a very nice large throne room but it

didn't have a ceiling big enough for a

like a 20-foot tall throne and even if

it had

you know you wouldn't need it a a Sound

Stage as big as Saint Paul's Cathedral

or Westminster Abbey which we didn't have

have

um and then how do you shoot the King on

top of the throne you would need a be

angling up all the time or put a camera

angle down you would have needed a crane

would have made the whole thing much

more complex

um when we did House of dragon though

Ryan Condell and his people

tried to get closer to the conception of

the throne and they designed the uh the

one that you're seeing which has all the

spikes on the other side it's

considerably more intimidating but it's

not it doesn't have the the height thing

now this version of the iron throne

has uh has the height

um it's kind of crooked rather than

being a straight Link in some others but

it's a pretty cool Iron Throne I think

with with the hundreds if not thousands

of swords in it and it's had a baby

well that's certainly one of the great

things about these these illustrations

that uh it can be reimagined in in this

so many different ways

um right and that's that's pretty cool

um one more

um the tourney of 111 AC

the green and the blacks

all right well in this case it's the

white it's a you know we're showing uh

what is I presume a kingsguard night

um who who wore white cloaks and uh pure

white armor and he's uh you know on this

uh magnificent horse you see the

heraldry behind them many of the

competing houses

um I love Harold green I I work uh yeah

I I work when we were doing the first

books and I I first had contact with

Elio Garcia of Westeros we we spent

years uh trying to do designs for

heraldry some of you could find in old

books of heraldry some of it we had to

create whole cloth because there was no

one no one to do that I mean I could

talk for 20 minutes about Harold Reed

but that would probably bore the hell

out of your uh your people it's it it is

interesting that uh Westeros heraldry is

much cooler than real world Herobrine

because um

everybody in the real world everybody

liked lions and Eagles you never saw a

hedgehog or a some of the other uh cool

heraldic things but I I try to use it

all in uh in Westeros and it's fun

absolutely okay I could keep talking to

you but um

we need to move on to the next segment

we're gonna see a video

um for it wait let me make sure I'm

getting this right a video and there's

an excerpt from the audio of Fire and

Blood so

and then your your benefit and then I

will have to vanish yep all right well

before you vanish and before we show

this video I want to congratulate you

and make a announcement that's very cool

some of you may know that in a day I

have other books I I occasionally wrote

other books that were not part of

Westeros or that and one of them uh that

I wrote back in way back in 1978 was a

short story uh about a dragon an ice

dragon and it's called Uh the ice dragon

um just a

short story as I said it's uh primarily

a kids story

but we are going to make that Warner

Brothers animation has purchased the

rights to it and we're going to expand

it to a fully animated film from Warner

Brothers animation a theatrical film we

hope to be released in a motion picture

Palace near you and David Anthony Durham

will be writing the screenplay

and he better do a good job [Laughter]

[Laughter]

um yes so pleased um to to get that assignment

assignment

um and so daunted by actually having

that assignment but I love the story

um and

um I'm starting to dig into

making it into it into a movie

thanks for announcing it too oh my

pleasure appreciate that and I should

say that the the ice dragon is not part

of the West Coast universe so some

people seem to think so I wrote the ice

dragon in 1978 I didn't mean

think of Westeros until 1991 so there

was a considerable you know 13 years in

between there

all right well thank you very much for

that it's been a pleasure I will now bow out

out

um thank you all as well the dying of

the dragons

the dance out of the Dragons is the

fiery name bestowed upon the Savage

internation struggle for the Iron Throne

of Westeros fought between two rival

branches of House Targaryen during the

years 129 to 131 AC

to characterize the dark turbulent

bloody doings of this period as a dance

strikes us as grotesquely inappropriate

no doubt the phrase originated with some singer

singer

the dying of the Dragons would be

altogether more fitting that tradition

time and Grand maester Monken have

burned the more poetic usage into the

pages of History

so we must dance along with the rest

there were two principal claimants to

the Iron Throne upon the death of King

viserys the first Targaryen his daughter

rhaenyra the only surviving child of his

first marriage and aegon his eldest son

by his second wife

amidst the chaos and Carnage brought on

by their rivalry other would-be kings

would stake claims as well strutting

about like Mummers on a stage for a

fortnight or a Moon's turn only to fall

as swiftly as they had written

the dance split the Seven Kingdoms in

two as Lords Knights and small folk

declared for one side or the other and

took up arms against one another

even House Targaryen itself was divided

when the kith kin and children of each

of the claimants became embroiled in the fighting

fighting

over the two years of struggle a

terrible toll was taken on the great

Lords of Westeros and together with

their Bannerman Knights and small Folk

whilst the dynasty survived at the end

of the fighting saw Targaryen power much

diminished and the world's last dragons

vastly reduced in number

the dance was a war unlike any other

ever fought in the long history of the

Seven Kingdoms though armies marched and

met in Savage battle much of the

slaughter took place on water and

especially in the air as Dragon fought

dragon with tooth and Claw and Flame

it was a war marked by stealth murder

and betrayal as well a war fought in

Shadows and stairwells council chambers

and Castle yards with knives and lies

and poison

along simmering the conflict burst into

the open on the third day of the third

Moon of 129 AC when the ailing bedridden

King viserys the first Targaryen closed

his eyes for a nap in the red keep of

King's Landing and died without waking

his body was discovered by a serving man

at the hour of the bat when it was the

king's custom to take a cup of

Hippocrates the servant ran to inform

Queen Alison whose Apartments were on

the floor below the Kings

hi well I'm back uh with my friend uh

and we're gonna

answer a few fan questions that have

been uh sent in here uh

which of your characters would you most

like to have dinner with

uh well that would depend in part on

the purpose of the dinner

um if I wanted a wit and entertainment

uh Tyrion Lannister very few people as

uh you know funny or witty as a Tyrion

but he's also dangerous too if you uh

annoy him he could uh you know send you

to the dungeon or cut your head off

um if I was simply looking for a

wonderful meal uh go to Penthouse and

eat with illyrio mopatas he uh he has

some marvelous uh feasts uh set before him

him

or I suppose you could go to the uh you

know the Inn on the Trident and and see

what hot pie was uh whipping up um

another character that might be fun to

have dinner with would be uh Shea when

she was alive but uh probably for

reasons that I shouldn't go into um

is there a character that you would have

liked to explore and write more about

but not able to

in A Song of Ice and Fire or Fire and

Blood uh well yes there are in fact a

lot of characters um

one of the things uh about fire and

blood in particular

is its nature as a history meant I was

summarizing things and as I as I

summarize those things and characters

appeared be they major a minored it was

always part of me the the novelist part

in the back of my mind said I could

write a whole novel about that that character

character

um boy I wish I had time to I could at

least write a story about them

um and I've been tempted to do that uh

many times

characters it's hard to explain in some ways why

it's hard to explain in some ways why some characters

some characters trigger something in me or or fascinate

trigger something in me or or fascinate me and others maybe don't but uh

me and others maybe don't but uh um

a character like us the the Dragon Knight

the the Dragon Knight um

um this very Gallant one of the greatest

this very Gallant one of the greatest knights in in the history of Westeros or

knights in in the history of Westeros or um

or Nettles um who you know is a is a dragon writer

um who you know is a is a dragon writer in the dance where does she come from

in the dance where does she come from where does she go to what is her life

where does she go to what is her life like what is her life like after she

like what is her life like after she Fades from the public sphere

Fades from the public sphere um those are interesting

um those are interesting um I have thought at various points of

um I have thought at various points of writing an entire novel about uh carrot

writing an entire novel about uh carrot we haven't gotten to you yet aegon the

we haven't gotten to you yet aegon the fourth aegon the Unworthy he's like the

fourth aegon the Unworthy he's like the Henry the eighth of uh

Henry the eighth of uh of Westeros except worse he has all

of Westeros except worse he has all these Mr C's and he's he's not a nice

these Mr C's and he's he's not a nice guy but he's an interesting guy and

guy but he's an interesting guy and that's that's something that uh you know

that's that's something that uh you know fascinates me what makes a villain what

fascinates me what makes a villain what makes a a hero um are there people who

makes a a hero um are there people who are all good and all evil I don't I

are all good and all evil I don't I don't know but there's a million

don't know but there's a million characters I I just need to live to be

characters I I just need to live to be you know 150 uh and I can write all of

you know 150 uh and I can write all of this

this uh what was one of your favorite scenes

uh what was one of your favorite scenes to write in a series

to write in a series and one of your least favorite

and one of your least favorite um

well one scene I don't know if I could name one favorite scene and one least

name one favorite scene and one least favorite scene I did generally always

favorite scene I did generally always like writing about Tyrion the Tyrion

like writing about Tyrion the Tyrion chapter seemed to write themselves and I

chapter seemed to write themselves and I had a very hard time to struggle with

had a very hard time to struggle with writing from bran because bran of all

writing from bran because bran of all the characters was the one who was most

the characters was the one who was most involved in Magic and I think magic and

involved in Magic and I think magic and fantasy sorcery the supernatural all of

fantasy sorcery the supernatural all of these things have to be handled with a

these things have to be handled with a great deal of care or they can overwhelm

great deal of care or they can overwhelm the uh the story

the uh the story so um I rewrote some of those brand

so um I rewrote some of those brand chapters over and over again and I'm

chapters over and over again and I'm still struggling with the new ones that

still struggling with the new ones that are in uh

are in uh in The Winds of Winter but uh hopefully

in The Winds of Winter but uh hopefully we're we're getting there

we're we're getting there um

um what's seen from Fire and Blood are you

what's seen from Fire and Blood are you most excited is he brought to the screen

most excited is he brought to the screen uh well yeah the battle over to Garden

uh well yeah the battle over to Garden time

time although that battle that they did in

although that battle that they did in the season finale was pretty uh

the season finale was pretty uh pretty amazing too

pretty amazing too um

what is your favorite seemingly minor moment

moment that changed the course of uh westeros's

that changed the course of uh westeros's history

there are a couple of them I think uh in in the first in the Hedge night the

in the first in the Hedge night the first Duncan egg story uh the death of

first Duncan egg story uh the death of Baylor breakspeare who was the uh the

Baylor breakspeare who was the uh the heir next in line to the throne and I

heir next in line to the throne and I think would have been a very strong and

think would have been a very strong and very competent King who who dies to

very competent King who who dies to defend the uh the honor of an

defend the uh the honor of an insignificant hedge knight uh how is

insignificant hedge knight uh how is Westeros history different if Baylor

Westeros history different if Baylor does not die

does not die um that would be

um that would be very significant and similarly the whole

very significant and similarly the whole dance with the dragons I mentioned

dance with the dragons I mentioned earlier the the air and this

earlier the the air and this air in the spear I mean Harris the Old

air in the spear I mean Harris the Old King had 13 children it seemed a

King had 13 children it seemed a succession was very

succession was very solid he had the proverbial air in the

solid he had the proverbial air in the sphere and two very competent

sphere and two very competent Sons Eamonn and Balon and Eamon was

Sons Eamonn and Balon and Eamon was killed while flying on his Dragon to uh

killed while flying on his Dragon to uh Tarth to help defend the Isle against

Tarth to help defend the Isle against some you know Pirates and mirish people

some you know Pirates and mirish people and he was killed by a crossbow well it

and he was killed by a crossbow well it was not even meant for him there was you

was not even meant for him there was you know the the even starve Tarth the the

know the the even starve Tarth the the Lord was well known to the mirrish and

Lord was well known to the mirrish and they were determined to take him out and

they were determined to take him out and uh crossbow men didn't even recognize

uh crossbow men didn't even recognize who was this new guy who was walking

who was this new guy who was walking alongside him but he just missed and

alongside him but he just missed and suddenly

suddenly the whole succession was thrown into

the whole succession was thrown into doubt and in some ways you could say

doubt and in some ways you could say that was one of the first things that

that was one of the first things that caused the dance of the dragons

caused the dance of the dragons uh when you first imagined characters in

uh when you first imagined characters in A Song of Ice and Fire and Fire and

A Song of Ice and Fire and Fire and Blood were there any that changed in

Blood were there any that changed in unexpected ways as the story uh

unexpected ways as the story uh developed yes

developed yes in fact there were so many that I

in fact there were so many that I couldn't

couldn't even begin to tell you

even begin to tell you um it's the way I write I've I've talked

um it's the way I write I've I've talked about this in many interviews and many

about this in many interviews and many blog posts two types of writers the

blog posts two types of writers the architect and a gardener and um the

architect and a gardener and um the architect plans everything ahead of time

architect plans everything ahead of time but the gardeners just starts to write

but the gardeners just starts to write the story and the characters come alive

the story and the characters come alive and they take him in unexpected

and they take him in unexpected directions so sometimes it's an

directions so sometimes it's an unexpected character who pops up and uh

unexpected character who pops up and uh captivates you and takes over the story

captivates you and takes over the story and does take it in unexpected

and does take it in unexpected directions I remember one of the First

directions I remember one of the First characters to do that was Brawn you know

characters to do that was Brawn you know Tyrion is on the road and he he meets at

Tyrion is on the road and he he meets at an end he runs into these two cell

an end he runs into these two cell swords Brawn and chicken and uh

swords Brawn and chicken and uh then he gets arrested by uh Catelyn

then he gets arrested by uh Catelyn Stark and um

Stark and um he has to travel to the irie and he's

he has to travel to the irie and he's put on trial and and Braun steps forward

put on trial and and Braun steps forward uh to defend him um I needed someone it

uh to defend him um I needed someone it could have easily have been chigging at

could have easily have been chigging at that stage but no I killed chicken I

that stage but no I killed chicken I just just I like to name Braun bitter

just just I like to name Braun bitter and the more time Tyrion spent with

and the more time Tyrion spent with Braun the more interesting the character

Braun the more interesting the character became to me I wanted to know who he was

became to me I wanted to know who he was and what about him and I liked his

and what about him and I liked his dialogue I liked the sound of him he

dialogue I liked the sound of him he played very well off

played very well off Tyrion so but that's only one character

Tyrion so but that's only one character there are many many other characters

there are many many other characters that have done the same thing to uh to a

that have done the same thing to uh to a greater or less extent in uh

greater or less extent in uh in these books

in these books um

um if you could choose a time or place in

if you could choose a time or place in westerosi history then you could revisit

westerosi history then you could revisit in future stories what would it be

in future stories what would it be uh

you know virtually everything in Fire and Blood

and Blood all the histories there's part of me

all the histories there's part of me that would love to uh

that would love to uh flesh them out a little more tell the

flesh them out a little more tell the tell the full story in the form of a

tell the full story in the form of a novella or a novel

novella or a novel um

um and we saw even more of that in the in

and we saw even more of that in the in the TV show I mean it we had 10 episodes

the TV show I mean it we had 10 episodes um people have

um people have said that time jumps were jarring to

said that time jumps were jarring to them and you know raniera's relationship

them and you know raniera's relationship with Harwin strong

with Harwin strong um she had three children by him but we

um she had three children by him but we never even you know we never see them

never even you know we never see them get together for the first time or cast

get together for the first time or cast we never have a scene when they first

we never have a scene when they first slept with each other we don't know

slept with each other we don't know exactly what has happened and how he

exactly what has happened and how he felt about that and how Lenor felt about

felt about that and how Lenor felt about him there's a whole story there there's

him there's a whole story there there's a at least a novella maybe a a novel but

a at least a novella maybe a a novel but um we we simply did not have the time to

um we we simply did not have the time to tell it

tell it um and it did not fit the format of my

um and it did not fit the format of my history book so

history book so but it's a story and I would love to

but it's a story and I would love to love to do that

Fire and Blood is strongly informed by the biases of watchmaster gildane and

the biases of watchmaster gildane and mushroom

mushroom well mushroom is only one of gildane's

well mushroom is only one of gildane's sources there's also Eustis and uh

sources there's also Eustis and uh or a while who recount these events do

or a while who recount these events do you consider House of dragon to be a

you consider House of dragon to be a companion piece of the book that shows

companion piece of the book that shows the true nature of events as they

the true nature of events as they actually happened

actually happened or will only you ever know the truth

or will only you ever know the truth well how meta do you want to get I mean

well how meta do you want to get I mean there is no truth I make all this stuff

there is no truth I make all this stuff up uh Archer Mason gildane mushroom all

up uh Archer Mason gildane mushroom all of those things and uh

of those things and uh what is the truth uh will we ever know

what is the truth uh will we ever know the truth of uh Hannibal uh or Spartacus

the truth of uh Hannibal uh or Spartacus as in David's novel will we ever know

as in David's novel will we ever know the truth of what happened at the black

the truth of what happened at the black dinner of Scotland

dinner of Scotland um will we ever know the truth of

um will we ever know the truth of any of these things

any of these things truth gets obscured

truth gets obscured um

so I say with Kipling there are 9 and 20 ways of constructing tribal lays and

ways of constructing tribal lays and every single one of them is is right

are you team black or Team Green well I don't know

or Team Green well I don't know read the book

read the book you have to

you have to make your own mind up on that

make your own mind up on that maybe I'm a bit of both teams

maybe I'm a bit of both teams um

what smaller house in Westeros It's the Most Fascinating to you

It's the Most Fascinating to you and why

and why um

again that's a that's a tough one um

um I do get interested in the history of uh

I do get interested in the history of uh many of these uh smaller houses

many of these uh smaller houses obviously house valerion which was

obviously house valerion which was largely

largely very much in the background in A Song of

very much in the background in A Song of Ice and Fire but is very much in the

Ice and Fire but is very much in the foreground of

foreground of Fire and Blood and House of the Dragon

Fire and Blood and House of the Dragon um is a house that has engaged me and

um is a house that has engaged me and you know one of the successor shows

you know one of the successor shows we're working on is called Nine voyages

we're working on is called Nine voyages it's the uh earlier Voyage of Corliss

it's the uh earlier Voyage of Corliss valerion who was the Sinbad the Sailor

valerion who was the Sinbad the Sailor the Magellan

the Magellan um the Captain Kirk on the water of

um the Captain Kirk on the water of Westeros and he made these incredible

Westeros and he made these incredible mind voyages to the far ends of the

mind voyages to the far ends of the Earth so house valerion is is uh one

Earth so house valerion is is uh one that's interested in me I've always had

that's interested in me I've always had a soft spot for house Blackwood which

a soft spot for house Blackwood which has an interesting history and they're

has an interesting history and they're one of the few houses south of the neck

one of the few houses south of the neck that still follows the old gods and has

that still follows the old gods and has a weirwood tree and they they have not

a weirwood tree and they they have not adopted the faith of the seven that's an

adopted the faith of the seven that's an interesting to me how did they uh how

interesting to me how did they uh how did they work out

did they work out some of the houses in Doran interests me

some of the houses in Doran interests me a great deal uh you know nymeria how she

a great deal uh you know nymeria how she uh unified all of Dorne all of the petty

uh unified all of Dorne all of the petty kingdoms that's fascinating and I hope

kingdoms that's fascinating and I hope we hope to tell that story too in one of

we hope to tell that story too in one of the successor shows uh 10 000 ships but

the successor shows uh 10 000 ships but also how starful which is the ha uh the

also how starful which is the ha uh the the house Dane which is headquarters at

the house Dane which is headquarters at Starfall and they have the the sword

Starfall and they have the the sword Dawn which is even more potent than the

Dawn which is even more potent than the Valerian steel swords it's forged from a

Valerian steel swords it's forged from a full-length star and the man who Wheels

full-length star and the man who Wheels it is called a sword of the morning and

it is called a sword of the morning and they have a at least in my head they

they have a at least in my head they have a very colorful Rich kind of

have a very colorful Rich kind of mysterious interesting background that

mysterious interesting background that uh one day I would like to write about

uh one day I would like to write about there just need to be seven of me and

there just need to be seven of me and they need to be 37 hours in a day and I

they need to be 37 hours in a day and I need to be 35 years old again but sadly

need to be 35 years old again but sadly none of these things are likely to occur

none of these things are likely to occur and finally you asked a question I knew

and finally you asked a question I knew I was going to get do you have an update

I was going to get do you have an update on the Winds of Winter

on the Winds of Winter um

you know it's the same update I've been giving for a long time I'm I continue to

giving for a long time I'm I continue to work on it

it continues to get longer and longer I mean I was working on it the day before

mean I was working on it the day before I flew back here for three or four days

I flew back here for three or four days but I was

but I was I was rereading some chapters that I'd

I was rereading some chapters that I'd written earlier and I didn't like them

written earlier and I didn't like them well enough and uh so I kind of ripped

well enough and uh so I kind of ripped them apart and rewrote them

them apart and rewrote them um and I've had some ideas while I've

um and I've had some ideas while I've been on this trip I got to get back and

been on this trip I got to get back and and hopefully get to it while the ideas

and hopefully get to it while the ideas are still

are still fresh in my head

fresh in my head um it's a big big book I've said that

um it's a big big book I've said that before it's a challenging book

before it's a challenging book um

um it's probably going to be a larger book

it's probably going to be a larger book than

than any of the previous volumes in the

any of the previous volumes in the series The what

series The what the desert dragons and Storm of Swords

the desert dragons and Storm of Swords are the two largest books in the series

are the two largest books in the series they were both about 1500 manuscript

they were both about 1500 manuscript pages I think this one is going to be

pages I think this one is going to be longer than that by the time I finish it

longer than that by the time I finish it and I think I'm about three quarters of

and I think I'm about three quarters of the way done maybe

the way done maybe um but that's not a hundred percent done

um but that's not a hundred percent done so I I have to continue to work on it

so I I have to continue to work on it and of course then there's the issue

and of course then there's the issue here of my friends at random house when

here of my friends at random house when I deliver this monstrous book that will

I deliver this monstrous book that will be as big of this Dragon

be as big of this Dragon are they going to try to make me cut it

are they going to try to make me cut it in two or are they going to do something

in two or are they going to do something other horrible to me ah no

other horrible to me ah no we'll find out about that but first I

we'll find out about that but first I have to finish it I I have to get it all

have to finish it I I have to get it all done and uh I've given up making

done and uh I've given up making predictions because people press me and

predictions because people press me and press me when's it going to be done and

press me when's it going to be done and I make what I think is the best case

I make what I think is the best case estimate and then stuff happens

estimate and then stuff happens and um yeah that's um then everybody

and um yeah that's um then everybody gets mad that I lied I've never lied

gets mad that I lied I've never lied about these predictions they're the best

about these predictions they're the best I can make but I guess I overestimate my

I can make but I guess I overestimate my ability to get stuff done and I

ability to get stuff done and I underestimate the amount of

underestimate the amount of interruptions and other projects and

interruptions and other projects and other demands that will distract me and

other demands that will distract me and so on and so on but

so on and so on but it's in progress I'm working on it

it's in progress I'm working on it um

um creeping forward but uh

one day it will be done and then

and then it will come out

it will come out and then

and then the next day

the next day someone will tweet me

someone will tweet me when will we see a dream of spring

when will we see a dream of spring so

so uh yes I I can see the future I'm a

uh yes I I can see the future I'm a science fiction guy

science fiction guy anyway that's all we have for you

anyway that's all we have for you tonight

tonight um

um so I hope you've enjoyed this talk it

so I hope you've enjoyed this talk it was great having David here

was great having David here um I think we could uh

um I think we could uh we could have talked for another two or

we could have talked for another two or three hours

three hours um

um but um he has to get home and get

but um he has to get home and get working on the ice dragon

working on the ice dragon um so do um

um so do um do pick up Fire and Blood do pick up

do pick up Fire and Blood do pick up this incredible art book that we have uh

this incredible art book that we have uh rise of the dragons and uh also please

rise of the dragons and uh also please do pick up some of my Wild Card books

do pick up some of my Wild Card books David David is in those along with a lot

David David is in those along with a lot of other marvelous writers and pick up

of other marvelous writers and pick up some of David's own novels his Acacia

some of David's own novels his Acacia High fantasy series his books about

High fantasy series his books about Hannibal and pride of Carthage

Hannibal and pride of Carthage um terrific reads and

um terrific reads and I think you'll really enjoy them if you

I think you'll really enjoy them if you like historical fiction historical

like historical fiction historical fantasy Epic Fantasy

fantasy Epic Fantasy any of these things

any of these things so

so thank you and good night

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YouTube Transcript:A Conversation with George R R Martin | A Celebration of the Targaryen Dynasty