thank you Naim for another very explosive presentation uh my question is
explosive presentation uh my question is a little on the non-traditional threat
a little on the non-traditional threat uh to security for like the water issue
uh to security for like the water issue in Pakistan If You Can Shed uh some
in Pakistan If You Can Shed uh some light on that especially Vis A V India
light on that especially Vis A V India and some internal Water Resource
and some internal Water Resource Management problems and if you can just
Management problems and if you can just join it with food and energy crisis we
join it with food and energy crisis we are facing especially in the southern
are facing especially in the southern part of Pakistan that is
part of Pakistan that is Karachi you know the most common refrain
Karachi you know the most common refrain these days in Pakistan is that uh uh
these days in Pakistan is that uh uh we're going to have water
we're going to have water wars uh we're going to have water wars
wars uh we're going to have water wars with India we're going to have water
with India we're going to have water wars within Pakistan and um um this is a
wars within Pakistan and um um this is a very very critical factor it's a
very very critical factor it's a long-term Factor uh in the short term
long-term Factor uh in the short term you know you do get by you get a good
you know you do get by you get a good crop and a bad crop the headline in um
crop and a bad crop the headline in um story on the front page of my paper
story on the front page of my paper today in in uh uh Pakistan is about
today in in uh uh Pakistan is about India and Pakistan building two dams
India and Pakistan building two dams each trying to build it faster than the
each trying to build it faster than the other on the same river uh because under
other on the same river uh because under the terms of the Indus water Accord um
the terms of the Indus water Accord um the whoever does it first will get
the whoever does it first will get certain benefits and so on and um the
certain benefits and so on and um the rhetoric on water is is is getting more
rhetoric on water is is is getting more and more bitter and um acute and um for
and more bitter and um acute and um for two years we've been talking to trying
two years we've been talking to trying to talk to India in terms of a
to talk to India in terms of a resolution to this conflict over the
resolution to this conflict over the over the building of an Indian Dam over
over the building of an Indian Dam over jalm and uh now the kashmiris are
jalm and uh now the kashmiris are getting into the ACT first it was India
getting into the ACT first it was India Pakistan now the third party is come in
Pakistan now the third party is come in and said hey India Pakistan is fine we
and said hey India Pakistan is fine we Kashmir is in Kashmir we need to be a
Kashmir is in Kashmir we need to be a party to this conflict also this is our
party to this conflict also this is our water it's getting more complicated
water it's getting more complicated which is to say that the kashmiris in
which is to say that the kashmiris in India are no longer you know they're not
India are no longer you know they're not pro India and they're not pro Pakistan
pro India and they're not pro Pakistan anymore they're more for aadi which is
anymore they're more for aadi which is to say even the old pro-india parties
to say even the old pro-india parties are now having to take a very
are now having to take a very independent position uh on some of these
independent position uh on some of these issues in including water so water is
issues in including water so water is going to become a very major issue uh in
going to become a very major issue uh in the next three or four years um and if
the next three or four years um and if we don't solve some of the more
we don't solve some of the more outstanding issues and create the trust
outstanding issues and create the trust that is needed to either get the World
that is needed to either get the World Bank in at the first opportunity or not
Bank in at the first opportunity or not get the World Bank in at all and do it
get the World Bank in at all and do it ourselves but neither of that is
ourselves but neither of that is happening currently so that's a very
happening currently so that's a very very critical area second of course is
very critical area second of course is because you know the threat is oh we're
because you know the threat is oh we're going to die without water I mean that
going to die without water I mean that is something far more powerful than all
is something far more powerful than all the rhetoric about mumbay and this that
the rhetoric about mumbay and this that and the other and you know the upper
and the other and you know the upper iian versus the low lower Iberian you
iian versus the low lower Iberian you have the same problem inside Pakistan we
have the same problem inside Pakistan we want to build a dam we can't build a dam
want to build a dam we can't build a dam why because the lower Iberian Sy says
why because the lower Iberian Sy says nothing doing they they don't trust
nothing doing they they don't trust Punjab Province Pakistan doesn't trust
Punjab Province Pakistan doesn't trust India India doesn't trust Pakistan and
India India doesn't trust Pakistan and water is the life lifeblood of Pakistan
water is the life lifeblood of Pakistan much more than it is that of India and
much more than it is that of India and because you know this the land of the
because you know this the land of the Five Rivers Punjab that is The Granary
Five Rivers Punjab that is The Granary and uh uh uh so I think you know we are
and uh uh uh so I think you know we are having internal problems over
having internal problems over distribution of resources the National
distribution of resources the National Finance commission award can't get our
Finance commission award can't get our act together the provinces are fighting
act together the provinces are fighting over resources over sales tax proceeds
over resources over sales tax proceeds over the measure of autonomy that we
over the measure of autonomy that we need that's another challenge that we
need that's another challenge that we face I didn't talk about it but I'm glad
face I didn't talk about it but I'm glad you pointed it out and then of course if
you pointed it out and then of course if you link that whole process of regional
you link that whole process of regional autonomy including resources command
autonomy including resources command over resour es the Northwest Frontier
over resour es the Northwest Frontier province is asking for royalties 200
province is asking for royalties 200 billion rupees they're asking for
billion rupees they're asking for royalties in uh past supplies of water
royalties in uh past supplies of water and
and hydroelectricity the government doesn't
hydroelectricity the government doesn't have money to import oil and pay its oil
have money to import oil and pay its oil companies so that we can get back to you
companies so that we can get back to you know 2 hours of power outages instead of
know 2 hours of power outages instead of 12 and the Northwest Frontier province
12 and the Northwest Frontier province is asking for 200 billion rupees there's
is asking for 200 billion rupees there's no money and so you know this is the
no money and so you know this is the problem we when we want to build a dam
problem we when we want to build a dam when the International Community and
when the International Community and others want to give us money for
others want to give us money for projects such as the
projects such as the there's no domestic consensus and on top
there's no domestic consensus and on top of that you have the Indo Park problem
of that you have the Indo Park problem where there is no consensus either so
where there is no consensus either so this is a very critical area it could
this is a very critical area it could override many other issues uh in the
override many other issues uh in the next two or three
next two or three years first hand up was over here this
years first hand up was over here this lady
lady here yeah the one that one the one with
here yeah the one that one the one with a smile on her
a smile on her face I Natalie park with the century
face I Natalie park with the century Foundation um I'm wondering if you can
Foundation um I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit about the situation
speak a little bit about the situation in the swab valy for the displaced and
in the swab valy for the displaced and and returning citizens um and also from
and returning citizens um and also from a media perspective can you speak a
a media perspective can you speak a little bit about whether you think the
little bit about whether you think the information is that's coming out is
information is that's coming out is accurate and adequate um and if not what
accurate and adequate um and if not what do you think the ramifications of that
do you think the ramifications of that are well very quickly um we thought the
are well very quickly um we thought the refugee problem the displacement problem
refugee problem the displacement problem was going to be really huge everybody
was going to be really huge everybody thought that in the event it hasn't
thought that in the event it hasn't turned out to be so huge
turned out to be so huge um I think the writing on the wall was
um I think the writing on the wall was that a the Army might not move against
that a the Army might not move against the Taliban in which case it would
the Taliban in which case it would become huge but the Army did move and
become huge but the Army did move and the refugees did decide to go back and
the refugees did decide to go back and the Army is now making commitments that
the Army is now making commitments that it's there forever it's not going to go
it's there forever it's not going to go away it's going to build contonment and
away it's going to build contonment and it's going to stay there and protect the
it's going to stay there and protect the people so the RIT of the state is back
people so the RIT of the state is back for the first time actually it's not
for the first time actually it's not back it's there for the first time so
back it's there for the first time so that's a good thing which is you know
that's a good thing which is you know part of the solution to the refugee
part of the solution to the refugee problem the second thing is that the
problem the second thing is that the money didn't come you know what 550
money didn't come you know what 550 million were pledged uh as immediate
million were pledged uh as immediate assistance out of which only a couple of
assistance out of which only a couple of hundred million have come and that to
hundred million have come and that to only from the United States and pittance
only from the United States and pittance you know pittances from here and there
you know pittances from here and there uh most of the refugees were taken care
uh most of the refugees were taken care of by uh you know fellow pakistanis they
of by uh you know fellow pakistanis they ended up in homes and uh now with the
ended up in homes and uh now with the weather becoming better their condition
weather becoming better their condition is getting better uh the government also
is getting better uh the government also put out originally it said it was giving
put out originally it said it was giving them 5 billion now it's gone up to maybe
them 5 billion now it's gone up to maybe 15 billion so the Pakistani population
15 billion so the Pakistani population the government of Pakistan the Pakistani
the government of Pakistan the Pakistani Army's action the hospitality of the
Army's action the hospitality of the Pakistani people all have served to in a
Pakistani people all have served to in a sense diminish the refugee problem but
sense diminish the refugee problem but it's still there it's still a big
it's still there it's still a big problem and winter uh is going to be
problem and winter uh is going to be another uh problem because if there is a
another uh problem because if there is a Resurgence of Taliban activity in the
Resurgence of Taliban activity in the winter then there could be really huge
problems uh I'll get to Y how in a minute
thanks my name is R faad I'm a freelance journalist uh najim sa I have attended
journalist uh najim sa I have attended many many thing Tang functions here
many many thing Tang functions here Pakistan related I haven't seen a single
Pakistan related I haven't seen a single Pakistani visitor from Dr hudai to
Pakistani visitor from Dr hudai to Sherpa who didn't say that drone attacks
Sherpa who didn't say that drone attacks in Pakistan are
in Pakistan are counterproductive what is your opinion
counterproductive what is your opinion on
on that first of
that first of all the Pakistani army the Pakistani
all the Pakistani army the Pakistani government and the United States have a
government and the United States have a policy on these drone attacks the policy
policy on these drone attacks the policy is that the pakistanis will protest but
is that the pakistanis will protest but they welcome these attacks because they
they welcome these attacks because they do take out valuable Targets number one
do take out valuable Targets number one uh number two uh officially the
uh number two uh officially the Americans don't say that they're sending
Americans don't say that they're sending the drones into uh areas that are
the drones into uh areas that are Pakistani sovereignty uh as far as the
Pakistani sovereignty uh as far as the people of Pakistan are concerned and the
people of Pakistan are concerned and the media of Pakistan is concerned they're
media of Pakistan is concerned they're anti- drones genuinely so because there
anti- drones genuinely so because there the question is of Honor there the
the question is of Honor there the question is of sovereignty there
question is of sovereignty there abstract issues are important they're
abstract issues are important they're not important to the government of
not important to the government of Pakistan or to the Pakistani army which
Pakistan or to the Pakistani army which is facing a situation on the ground of
is facing a situation on the ground of course governments use public opinion
course governments use public opinion and media opinion uh to try and extract
and media opinion uh to try and extract concessions and to that extent when you
concessions and to that extent when you hear Mr zardari and the Pakistani army
hear Mr zardari and the Pakistani army say that hey give us the drones let us
say that hey give us the drones let us press the buttons makes sense okay but
press the buttons makes sense okay but they know it's not going to happen they
they know it's not going to happen they know the drone strikes are going to
know the drone strikes are going to continue and now even the Pakistani
continue and now even the Pakistani public is becoming a little cynical of
public is becoming a little cynical of the whole thing especially since it was
the whole thing especially since it was an American drone that took out bah
an American drone that took out bah masud and you know the whole theory that
masud and you know the whole theory that bah was an American agent or an Indian
bah was an American agent or an Indian agent and the Americans were not helping
agent and the Americans were not helping all that has been blown blown away now
all that has been blown blown away now uh the media does talk about drone
uh the media does talk about drone attacks but it's not with the same
attacks but it's not with the same insistence and emotionalism that they
insistence and emotionalism that they did earlier the cynicism has set in and
did earlier the cynicism has set in and people now be have accepted the fact
people now be have accepted the fact that this is a going to happen it's
that this is a going to happen it's going to be selective but it's going to
going to be selective but it's going to happen and the Pakistani army and
happen and the Pakistani army and government of complicity in
government of complicity in it hoe I said I promised you the next uh
turn uh I'm Howard cha of Georgetown University uh Naim you've talked a great
University uh Naim you've talked a great deal about the importance of conflict
deal about the importance of conflict resolution between India and Pakistan as
resolution between India and Pakistan as an
an ingredient for uh better handling of the
ingredient for uh better handling of the regional
regional issue but I'd like
issue but I'd like to get some speculation on your your
to get some speculation on your your part uh as to what that means on what
part uh as to what that means on what basis uh would uh relations be
basis uh would uh relations be improved uh conflicts are resolved do
improved uh conflicts are resolved do you have anything in mind other than
you have anything in mind other than getting the Indians off your back on
getting the Indians off your back on post Mumbai what are you going to do
post Mumbai what are you going to do about uh big issues uh What uh can a
about uh big issues uh What uh can a Pakistan government admittedly quite a
Pakistan government admittedly quite a weak Pakistan government do by way of
weak Pakistan government do by way of offering concessions which it would have
offering concessions which it would have to do uh in any meaningful conflict
to do uh in any meaningful conflict resolution how the thing is that I think
resolution how the thing is that I think the Pakistani government opposition and
the Pakistani government opposition and Military establishment has already made
Military establishment has already made the biggest historical concession it
the biggest historical concession it could make to conflict resolution with
could make to conflict resolution with India and I dated back
India and I dated back to the 99 Summit with between Naas
to the 99 Summit with between Naas Sharif and vajpai when they they started
Sharif and vajpai when they they started talking about the chinab formula on
talking about the chinab formula on Kashmir which was very far removed from
Kashmir which was very far removed from the UN resolution idea mushara denied it
the UN resolution idea mushara denied it to begin with and then went back on it
to begin with and then went back on it and is out of the box thinking led to
and is out of the box thinking led to another back channel that came very
another back channel that came very close to the same sort of thing ending
close to the same sort of thing ending in a joint mechanism uh the areas that
in a joint mechanism uh the areas that are part of Pakistan became become part
are part of Pakistan became become part of Pakistan those that are part of
of Pakistan those that are part of current Kashmir excluding the valley uh
current Kashmir excluding the valley uh become part of India some adjustments
become part of India some adjustments along the river chanab on on the west
along the river chanab on on the west and on the East uh as it so happens uh
and on the East uh as it so happens uh the Muslims are on One bank and the
the Muslims are on One bank and the Hindus are majority on the other bank so
Hindus are majority on the other bank so India doesn't even have to say that this
India doesn't even have to say that this this took place on the basis of religion
this took place on the basis of religion uh because as it so happens the
uh because as it so happens the geography is
geography is such what more I mean can could India
such what more I mean can could India ask for this is exactly what India has
ask for this is exactly what India has always wanted to sort out Kashmir
always wanted to sort out Kashmir internally and today the whole notion
internally and today the whole notion the kashmiris have made it absolutely
the kashmiris have made it absolutely clear that they don't want to be part of
clear that they don't want to be part of Pakistan and the what zardari has done
Pakistan and the what zardari has done in the Northern areas is the first step
in the Northern areas is the first step in that direction which is why the
in that direction which is why the kashmiris in Kashmir the Hardline
kashmiris in Kashmir the Hardline Kashmir in Indian Kashmir are angry
Kashmir in Indian Kashmir are angry Yasin Malik just gave a statement how
Yasin Malik just gave a statement how that he's totally opposed to what
that he's totally opposed to what zardari is done by incorporating the
zardari is done by incorporating the northern and giving the Northern areas a
northern and giving the Northern areas a degree of autonomy this is the first
degree of autonomy this is the first step to incorporating it as a province
step to incorporating it as a province of Pakistan or and aad Kashmir as a
of Pakistan or and aad Kashmir as a province of uh Pakistan and if not then
province of uh Pakistan and if not then the whole notion of Kashmir with a joint
the whole notion of Kashmir with a joint mechanism which is what the five points
mechanism which is what the five points are all about uh which you're aware of I
are all about uh which you're aware of I mean all India you know you can see and
mean all India you know you can see and sign this in uh in a year's time
sign this in uh in a year's time provided provided the the the you know
provided provided the the the you know and both Congress and the BJP were on
and both Congress and the BJP were on board half the back Channel took place
board half the back Channel took place under one regime and half the back
under one regime and half the back Channel under another regime in Pakistan
Channel under another regime in Pakistan half the back Channel under Naas and
half the back Channel under Naas and half the back Channel under mush zardari
half the back Channel under mush zardari wants to get on with it zardari is Keen
wants to get on with it zardari is Keen to keep the same back channels he
to keep the same back channels he doesn't mind he's asked Tark aiz to
doesn't mind he's asked Tark aiz to carry on Tark aiz isort of Heming and
carry on Tark aiz isort of Heming and haing but on the Indian side you have Mr
haing but on the Indian side you have Mr lamba and uh you have the new National
lamba and uh you have the new National Security advisor who's part of it so it
Security advisor who's part of it so it it it doesn't require much to get back
it it doesn't require much to get back on track which is the whole point
on track which is the whole point Kashmir is nearer to a solution today
Kashmir is nearer to a solution today than it ever was ever was the question
than it ever was ever was the question is India has to take that initiative the
is India has to take that initiative the kashmiris are ready for it I was in
kashmiris are ready for it I was in Kashmir last year and I was struck by
Kashmir last year and I was struck by the enormous support in Sirin nagar and
the enormous support in Sirin nagar and its environs for
its environs for mushara I was shocked I said what they
mushara I was shocked I said what they said we hope he has a long life I said
said we hope he has a long life I said what are you saying he said yeah he's
what are you saying he said yeah he's given us breathing space this war has
given us breathing space this war has been terrible we don't want to be part
been terrible we don't want to be part of Pakistan Mash's out of the box
of Pakistan Mash's out of the box thinking is right so Naas wants that he
thinking is right so Naas wants that he initiated that process and the People's
initiated that process and the People's Party initiated it or thought about it
Party initiated it or thought about it in 1989 so what more does India want the
in 1989 so what more does India want the fact that the UN is out of the loop the
fact that the UN is out of the loop the fact that ladak can now become an Indian
fact that ladak can now become an Indian State the fact that Jammu can now become
State the fact that Jammu can now become an Indian State and the valley in
an Indian State and the valley in certain areas of aad Kashmir you have
certain areas of aad Kashmir you have joint mechanism for an X period of time
joint mechanism for an X period of time without diluting sovereignty India
without diluting sovereignty India sovereignty or Pakistan sovereignty I
sovereignty or Pakistan sovereignty I think the solution is there so my the
think the solution is there so my the point I'm making is this we need to get
point I'm making is this we need to get back on that track we need to solve the
back on that track we need to solve the water problem I mean the water problem
water problem I mean the water problem we brought in the World Bank the World
we brought in the World Bank the World Bank gave a judgment India and Pakistan
Bank gave a judgment India and Pakistan are about dragging their feet over it
are about dragging their feet over it because the ball in India's Court okay
because the ball in India's Court okay you know what about cin we all know the
you know what about cin we all know the deal is is done but cin won't happen
deal is is done but cin won't happen until the rest of the things happened
until the rest of the things happened now in the old days siin was first on
now in the old days siin was first on the agenda now it's not first on the
the agenda now it's not first on the agenda my own assessment is in a
agenda my own assessment is in a perverse sort of way the item that was
perverse sort of way the item that was supposed to be last on the agenda which
supposed to be last on the agenda which is Kashmir from India's point of view
is Kashmir from India's point of view from India's point of view it should be
from India's point of view it should be first on the agenda now Pakistan has
first on the agenda now Pakistan has conceded more that it could conceivably
conceded more that it could conceivably have in very difficult circumstances and
have in very difficult circumstances and there's a consensus in Pakistan Sharif
there's a consensus in Pakistan Sharif Asif zardari Peres mashar the army they
Asif zardari Peres mashar the army they all want this settlement on these lines
all want this settlement on these lines what more in India does India
corner Mr Siti I'm an Indian Muslim and you have been talking a lot about India
you have been talking a lot about India uh you gave a very Bleak picture of
uh you gave a very Bleak picture of Pakistan and I wonder how I I don't wish
Pakistan and I wonder how I I don't wish to offend you or other pakistanis or
to offend you or other pakistanis or anyone else here that the Indian Muslims
anyone else here that the Indian Muslims decided at least my parents decided to
decided at least my parents decided to stay in India and considering what
stay in India and considering what Pakistan has conducted itself in the
Pakistan has conducted itself in the past 60 years we are in a way happy to
past 60 years we are in a way happy to be in India rather than Pakistan my
be in India rather than Pakistan my question to you that you have not said a
question to you that you have not said a word about the mahajer party what is
word about the mahajer party what is their role there is a lot of internal
their role there is a lot of internal strife within Pakistan you have talked a
strife within Pakistan you have talked a lot about the external threats but what
lot about the external threats but what about the threats within the ethnic
about the threats within the ethnic strives or the treatment of the mahaj by
strives or the treatment of the mahaj by the punjabis or the CIS would you throw
the punjabis or the CIS would you throw some light on that yeah but with due
some light on that yeah but with due respect and I don't want to get into a
respect and I don't want to get into a debate here with due respect I'm not
debate here with due respect I'm not sure whether your point of view of the
sure whether your point of view of the state of the Indian Muslims is the point
state of the Indian Muslims is the point of view of a majority of the Indian
of view of a majority of the Indian Muslims um and I can only refer to a
Muslims um and I can only refer to a government report published recently in
government report published recently in India that says that the state of Indian
India that says that the state of Indian Muslims is terrible it's as bad as that
Muslims is terrible it's as bad as that of the lower costs and that is certainly
of the lower costs and that is certainly not the uh fate that should have
not the uh fate that should have befallen a community that is at least 5%
befallen a community that is at least 5% of the Indian population so I don't want
of the Indian population so I don't want to go beyond that I'm just quoting
to go beyond that I'm just quoting throwing back at you what the Indian
throwing back at you what the Indian government's report says about the
government's report says about the status of Indians Muslims and how in in
status of Indians Muslims and how in in a sense if Pakistan's ideology has
a sense if Pakistan's ideology has disproven the need for partition the
disproven the need for partition the state of the Indian Muslims today is is
state of the Indian Muslims today is is evidence to the contrary so having said
evidence to the contrary so having said that if if you'll allow me to talk now a
that if if you'll allow me to talk now a little bit about um um the mahaj well
little bit about um um the mahaj well you know Karachi is the mahajer city and
you know Karachi is the mahajer city and Karachi is not split three ways and Sy
Karachi is not split three ways and Sy is split three ways you have the mahaj
is split three ways you have the mahaj you have the sindhis and now you have a
you have the sindhis and now you have a huge patan influx pashun influx and
huge patan influx pashun influx and onethird of Karachi is now pashun in an
onethird of Karachi is now pashun in an interesting way so that is a cultural
interesting way so that is a cultural mix that is both good from one point of
mix that is both good from one point of view and potentially dangerous in the
view and potentially dangerous in the case of if there is ethnic strike Strife
case of if there is ethnic strike Strife uh so you know beyond that what can one
uh so you know beyond that what can one say about Karachi it is still the Hub of
say about Karachi it is still the Hub of Pakistan's industrial growth uh there is
Pakistan's industrial growth uh there is peace there is an attempt for the first
peace there is an attempt for the first time between these three ethnic
time between these three ethnic communities that have been Waring with
communities that have been Waring with each other uh to to build peace and to
each other uh to to build peace and to build the rules of the game in that City
build the rules of the game in that City and um uh that has been demonstrated
and um uh that has been demonstrated reason reasonably well the city has been
reason reasonably well the city has been free of ethnic conflict for a long time
free of ethnic conflict for a long time now terrorism bombs going off occasional
now terrorism bombs going off occasional this that and the other that happens all
this that and the other that happens all the time but the sort of ethnic conflict
the time but the sort of ethnic conflict that we saw in the '90s uh that is
that we saw in the '90s uh that is certainly not there anymore
oh we got some more questions on the left my name is VJ sasal I'm from Indo
left my name is VJ sasal I'm from Indo American Kashmir Forum born and raised
American Kashmir Forum born and raised in Kashmir uh but my question is more
in Kashmir uh but my question is more general actually it's more of a comment
general actually it's more of a comment uh say I've heard you uh over the years
uh say I've heard you uh over the years coming over here sometimes with jigu and
coming over here sometimes with jigu and all that always enjoyed your your
all that always enjoyed your your presentations but today I'm really both
presentations but today I'm really both surprised and disappointed I have never
surprised and disappointed I have never seen you as an apologist for the the
seen you as an apologist for the the Pakistani government as I see you today
Pakistani government as I see you today I I'm sorry but I'm giving you my Frank
I I'm sorry but I'm giving you my Frank assessment you are I don't see a
assessment you are I don't see a difference one bit between the official
difference one bit between the official Pakistani spokesman and you would you
Pakistani spokesman and you would you comment on that please thank you the
comment on that please thank you the official Pakistani spokesman will not
official Pakistani spokesman will not say Mr Zari in his first year has been a
say Mr Zari in his first year has been a total
total disappointment that the official
disappointment that the official spokesman will not say not keep his job
spokesman will not say not keep his job the official Pakistani Position will
the official Pakistani Position will probably rubbish Naas Sharif which I
probably rubbish Naas Sharif which I have not done I've talked about Pakistan
have not done I've talked about Pakistan national
national interests the thing is it is in
interests the thing is it is in Pakistan's National interest to keep the
Pakistan's National interest to keep the Army out the Army I mean you know I've
Army out the Army I mean you know I've always said that and you will bear me
always said that and you will bear me out I've today made a very forceful case
out I've today made a very forceful case for keeping the Army out the fact that I
for keeping the Army out the fact that I have focused a little bit on India I
have focused a little bit on India I don't think you like that but
don't think you like that but unfortunately I've always said that it
unfortunately I've always said that it takes two hands to clap I said to India
takes two hands to clap I said to India in 99 that nawas Sharif is your best bet
in 99 that nawas Sharif is your best bet to build peace because of the The Summit
to build peace because of the The Summit I was having difficulties with Naas
I was having difficulties with Naas Sharif in in Pakistan cuz I was trying
Sharif in in Pakistan cuz I was trying to expose his corruption but I went to
to expose his corruption but I went to New Delhi and I said in New Delhi that
New Delhi and I said in New Delhi that India's best beted is to get this law
India's best beted is to get this law Summit moving Naas is your best beted
Summit moving Naas is your best beted that is the same Naas who promoted the
that is the same Naas who promoted the Jihad and had been an army spokesman I
Jihad and had been an army spokesman I said that at that time I say it today
said that at that time I say it today your best bet is the civilians of
your best bet is the civilians of Pakistan but you know you can't have it
Pakistan but you know you can't have it all your way at the end of the day there
all your way at the end of the day there is a public opinion there is a
is a public opinion there is a historical memory religion politics and
historical memory religion politics and the fact that we are neighbors is
the fact that we are neighbors is important and you know if you really
important and you know if you really want to be a big brother you got to act
want to be a big brother you got to act like
like one there was a hand up whale in the
one there was a hand up whale in the back there and then I who else ja John
back there and then I who else ja John John Lawrence uh one Regional power that
John Lawrence uh one Regional power that you haven't mentioned which had
you haven't mentioned which had historical associations with Pakistan
historical associations with Pakistan and I'd be interested to hear your views
and I'd be interested to hear your views about their current activities is China
about their current activities is China and I wonder if you might comment a
and I wonder if you might comment a little bit about their current influence
little bit about their current influence in Pakistan and their role if they have
in Pakistan and their role if they have one well very briefly um in
one well very briefly um in 1996 the Chinese pres the the then
1996 the Chinese pres the the then president of China came to
president of China came to Pakistan and uh in a conversation with
Pakistan and uh in a conversation with the then president of Pakistan Mr Faruk
the then president of Pakistan Mr Faruk lagari to which I was privy I happen to
lagari to which I was privy I happen to be a member of that interim Arrangement
be a member of that interim Arrangement the Chinese president categorically and
the Chinese president categorically and clearly told the Pakistani president hey
clearly told the Pakistani president hey settle your disputes with India
settle your disputes with India Kashmir is a border issue settle it as a
Kashmir is a border issue settle it as a border issue like we've settled all our
border issue like we've settled all our issues you couldn't get clearer than
issues you couldn't get clearer than that the Chinese have always been very
that the Chinese have always been very pragmatic the Chinese don't give
pragmatic the Chinese don't give Pakistan money but they do help in
Pakistan money but they do help in projects they do help in transfer of uh
projects they do help in transfer of uh technology including military technology
technology including military technology um but the Chinese have also built a
um but the Chinese have also built a strategic relationship with India and
strategic relationship with India and Pakistan is not unaware of that uh the
Pakistan is not unaware of that uh the Chinese are Pakistan's preferred trading
Chinese are Pakistan's preferred trading partner partners because India is not if
partner partners because India is not if India were then the CH then the Chinese
India were then the CH then the Chinese would be at a disadvantage purely
would be at a disadvantage purely because of the geographic distance
because of the geographic distance because some Indian goods are cheaper or
because some Indian goods are cheaper or as cheap as Chinese Goods right now
as cheap as Chinese Goods right now Indian Goods don't come into Pakistan
Indian Goods don't come into Pakistan for various reasons and the Chinese have
for various reasons and the Chinese have taken over the market in a strange way
taken over the market in a strange way something very interesting is going on
something very interesting is going on uh one when the Chinese come in and bid
uh one when the Chinese come in and bid for Pakistani
for Pakistani projects the media is extremely
projects the media is extremely reluctant to point the finger of of on
reluctant to point the finger of of on corruption cuz the Chinese are not
corruption cuz the Chinese are not averse to the usual business practices
averse to the usual business practices but the media will not talk about
but the media will not talk about Chinese
Chinese Kickbacks the media will not talk about
Kickbacks the media will not talk about non-transparent Arrangements between the
non-transparent Arrangements between the government of Pakistan and the
government of Pakistan and the government of China on private power on
government of China on private power on on on projects so the Chinese in a sense
on on projects so the Chinese in a sense always have the advantage of jumping the
always have the advantage of jumping the queue and if the Americans or the
queue and if the Americans or the Japanese or anybody else is competing
Japanese or anybody else is competing for a tender all other things being
for a tender all other things being equal the Chinese are going to get it so
equal the Chinese are going to get it so that's the advantage China has number
that's the advantage China has number two the Chinese are the only ones who've
two the Chinese are the only ones who've actually thrown in physically manpower
actually thrown in physically manpower to help build some of these projects at
to help build some of these projects at times and in areas where there's
times and in areas where there's conflict going on the Chinese have been
conflict going on the Chinese have been kidnapped held for ransom the Chinese
kidnapped held for ransom the Chinese are in taking huge risks in doing this
are in taking huge risks in doing this and to that extent the government of
and to that extent the government of Pakistan is very responsive to them the
Pakistan is very responsive to them the third thing is that the Chinese are very
third thing is that the Chinese are very big with projects they come in with
big with projects they come in with projects build operate and so on and
projects build operate and so on and then now uh they're talking to the
then now uh they're talking to the pakistanis on power projects Mr the our
pakistanis on power projects Mr the our president has been to China um to the
president has been to China um to the Three Gorges talking to those companies
Three Gorges talking to those companies to come in and build a string of dams
to come in and build a string of dams small dams in Pakistan uh that sort of
small dams in Pakistan uh that sort of money that sort of commitment is not
money that sort of commitment is not coming from any other country in the
coming from any other country in the world and so therefore I think China
world and so therefore I think China retains a special Edge uh in terms of
retains a special Edge uh in terms of Pakistan's Economic Development and
Pakistan's Economic Development and Military
Military security but in a perverse sort of
security but in a perverse sort of strange sort of way Saudi Arabia
strange sort of way Saudi Arabia maintains a very strong uh influence uh
maintains a very strong uh influence uh in Pakistan politically even though
in Pakistan politically even though Saudi Arabia does very gives very little
Saudi Arabia does very gives very little economic assistance compared to say the
economic assistance compared to say the United States yet Saudi Arabia maintains
United States yet Saudi Arabia maintains a very very significant clout in in
a very very significant clout in in Pakistan and now especially the Saudis
Pakistan and now especially the Saudis are pushing for a solution in
are pushing for a solution in Afghanistan sometimes in conflict with
Afghanistan sometimes in conflict with that of Pakistani national interests and
that of Pakistani national interests and yet it's difficult to to twart the
yet it's difficult to to twart the Chinese know Chinese are anti- Taliban
Chinese know Chinese are anti- Taliban and anti- Al-Qaeda for obvious reasons
and anti- Al-Qaeda for obvious reasons uh and the pakistanis are playing you
uh and the pakistanis are playing you know have to play a far more delicate
know have to play a far more delicate game over here they're anti uh alqaeda
game over here they're anti uh alqaeda but not necessarily anti- afan Taliban
but not necessarily anti- afan Taliban so there are sources of conflict built
so there are sources of conflict built into the Pakistan Saudi relationship but
into the Pakistan Saudi relationship but at the end of the day the Pakistani is a
at the end of the day the Pakistani is a very sensitive to what Saudi Arabia says
very sensitive to what Saudi Arabia says or does just as it is on China China
or does just as it is on China China does not meddle in Pakistan's Internal
does not meddle in Pakistan's Internal Affairs the United States does Saudi
Affairs the United States does Saudi Arabia does in a perverse way in terms
Arabia does in a perverse way in terms of the proxy wars so does India but
of the proxy wars so does India but China doesn't do that so China only
China doesn't do that so China only enjoys a great deal of
enjoys a great deal of Goodwill uh John you had a question uh
Goodwill uh John you had a question uh yes John Schmidt George Washington
yes John Schmidt George Washington University there was a very uh
University there was a very uh interesting uh editorial in the Daily
interesting uh editorial in the Daily Times on September 4th about how
Times on September 4th about how dangerous uh it had become uh in Islam
dangerous uh it had become uh in Islam Abad uh and uh one uh sentence will
Abad uh and uh one uh sentence will suffice uh the truth is that the city
suffice uh the truth is that the city has become Taliban ised among the lower
has become Taliban ised among the lower classes that outnumber the rest of its
classes that outnumber the rest of its population I wonder if you could comment
population I wonder if you could comment on what the significance of this
on what the significance of this phenomenon is uh whether it exists uh
phenomenon is uh whether it exists uh elsewhere in uh Punjab and related to
elsewhere in uh Punjab and related to the growth of radical mosques and
the growth of radical mosques and madrasas throughout Punjab and then add
madrasas throughout Punjab and then add in the influence and Potential Threat uh
in the influence and Potential Threat uh added by groups like The lashgari Tiba
added by groups like The lashgari Tiba which I note in a New York Times article
which I note in a New York Times article about a month ago uh quoted um an isi uh
about a month ago uh quoted um an isi uh official saying that it was 150,000
official saying that it was 150,000 strong now and they were really afraid
strong now and they were really afraid to move against it other groups like The
to move against it other groups like The J Muhammad what is basically uh the the
J Muhammad what is basically uh the the threat to the state posed by this
threat to the state posed by this phenomenon in Punjab itself well you
phenomenon in Punjab itself well you know John um Islamabad became in a sense
know John um Islamabad became in a sense a Transit stopping point uh for Punjab
a Transit stopping point uh for Punjab Taliban and the tribal Taliban which is
Taliban and the tribal Taliban which is what the red mosque was all about it
what the red mosque was all about it happened under the watch of the isi so
happened under the watch of the isi so the isi and the military can't escape
the isi and the military can't escape responsibility for it uh the people who
responsibility for it uh the people who were in The Red mosque were known to the
were in The Red mosque were known to the isi had been their agents had been their
isi had been their agents had been their assets um and every government uh had
assets um and every government uh had been soft not wanting to take on a
been soft not wanting to take on a hornet nest that's been the philosophy
hornet nest that's been the philosophy that's still the philosophy Vis the
that's still the philosophy Vis the Taliban Taliban ised elements of madrasa
Taliban Taliban ised elements of madrasa elements who potential recruits for the
elements who potential recruits for the Taliban in southern Punjab it's a Hest
Taliban in southern Punjab it's a Hest Nest we don't have the security operatus
Nest we don't have the security operatus to deal with it so to deal with these
to deal with it so to deal with these these these these so-called former
these these these so-called former assets who are now liabilities nothing
assets who are now liabilities nothing less than a full-fledged military will
less than a full-fledged military will be needed and you saw what happened in
be needed and you saw what happened in in the L in the L in the red mosque the
in the L in the L in the red mosque the use of the military antagonized the
use of the military antagonized the population of Islamabad it antagonized
population of Islamabad it antagonized the population of Pakistan it
the population of Pakistan it antagonized the
antagonized the media and last mjid that symbol the red
media and last mjid that symbol the red mosque became a symbol of the downfall
mosque became a symbol of the downfall of the Muslim League that was then the
of the Muslim League that was then the government it became a millstone around
government it became a millstone around their neck when the elections took place
their neck when the elections took place the red mosque and the opposition used
the red mosque and the opposition used it to Great Advantage pointing out
it to Great Advantage pointing out constantly that this party is the
constantly that this party is the murderer this is the party that did the
murderer this is the party that did the red mosque so yes I mean you know there
red mosque so yes I mean you know there could be close to
could be close to 152,000 uh madrasa students uh in and
152,000 uh madrasa students uh in and around the environs of uh uh Islamabad
around the environs of uh uh Islamabad with total sympathies with uh uh the red
with total sympathies with uh uh the red mosque folk that's a very dangerous
mosque folk that's a very dangerous thing uh I
thing uh I remember uh an
remember uh an occasion when um maybe a few hundred uh
occasion when um maybe a few hundred uh armed uh
armed uh miscreant uh created havoc in the city
miscreant uh created havoc in the city of laor uh and the police could not do
of laor uh and the police could not do anything uh some something had happened
anything uh some something had happened and uh I forget now what the the Danish
and uh I forget now what the the Danish cartoons and uh uh uh we knew that these
cartoons and uh uh uh we knew that these were madrasa students Jama islami and
were madrasa students Jama islami and other Jihadi forces few hundred people
other Jihadi forces few hundred people and laar was like a ghost town the
and laar was like a ghost town the police was nowhere in sight cuz they're
police was nowhere in sight cuz they're better armed they better
better armed they better motivated and um and they're
motivated and um and they're ferocious so the security the police and
ferocious so the security the police and the local Security Forces not equipped
the local Security Forces not equipped to deal with these people which is why
to deal with these people which is why you know when India says go for the
you know when India says go for the lashara now I tell you John I've been to
lashara now I tell you John I've been to the lashar
the lashar headquarters and it is the most
headquarters and it is the most formidably scary site I mean it's a
formidably scary site I mean it's a nightmare frankly I mean and you know I
nightmare frankly I mean and you know I don't want to tell a long story but I
don't want to tell a long story but I got into trouble with the lashar we
got into trouble with the lashar we wrote something and you quoted something
wrote something and you quoted something you could well have quoted out of an
you could well have quoted out of an earlier Daily Times editorial on the
earlier Daily Times editorial on the lashar and they basically said that they
lashar and they basically said that they were going to get us so we had to go and
were going to get us so we had to go and and meet H said uh to
and meet H said uh to apologize and neither the government of
apologize and neither the government of the day nor the side nobody was prepared
the day nor the side nobody was prepared to mediate on not going to touch it you
to mediate on not going to touch it you guys go and make your peace the chief
guys go and make your peace the chief minister said I'm not in touch with them
minister said I'm not in touch with them and the chief minister wanted to help me
and the chief minister wanted to help me so we had to find ways and means of
so we had to find ways and means of getting in touch with these guys and go
getting in touch with these guys and go and apologize and you
know that whole complex is built like the mosque in
the mosque in Medina and the folk there are out of
Medina and the folk there are out of another
another world and if 5,000 of those folk decided
world and if 5,000 of those folk decided to come out tomorrow in defense of the
to come out tomorrow in defense of the lashar TBA okay there would be no
lashar TBA okay there would be no police nowhere
police nowhere inside they could take over the
inside they could take over the city lashar has to be dealt with in
city lashar has to be dealt with in terms of a long-term
terms of a long-term solution many steps part disbanding them
solution many steps part disbanding them and reorienting them partly bribing them
and reorienting them partly bribing them giving them jobs
giving them jobs partly crushing them and selectively
partly crushing them and selectively picking up their leaders and it's going
picking up their leaders and it's going to be a long drawn out process
to be a long drawn out process dismantling the lashar it's not going to
dismantling the lashar it's not going to happen overnight and the Pakistani army
happen overnight and the Pakistani army is not equipped right now what with the
is not equipped right now what with the eastern border worries about another
eastern border worries about another Mumbai uh the internal problems on its
Mumbai uh the internal problems on its Western borders Pakistani army is the
Western borders Pakistani army is the last force that is now going to say okay
last force that is now going to say okay we're going to finger the lashar we're
we're going to finger the lashar we're going to go after them no way it's not
going to go after them no way it's not going to happen therefore when India
going to happen therefore when India says act against H say it's asking for
says act against H say it's asking for something in the that is not possible in
something in the that is not possible in the short term it's a long-term issue
the short term it's a long-term issue which is why we need to build the trust
which is why we need to build the trust and conf confidence that enables the
and conf confidence that enables the Pakistan security agencies to move in
Pakistan security agencies to move in terms of the long-term
perspective well ladies and gentlemen it's after 4:30 and we promise to end
it's after 4:30 and we promise to end the meeting at 4:30 I'm willing to stay
the meeting at 4:30 I'm willing to stay for another 3 hours if everybody wants
for another 3 hours if everybody wants to but uh I'm sure that there are a
to but uh I'm sure that there are a number of you who probably
number of you who probably despite this wonderful uh hour and a
despite this wonderful uh hour and a half we've had probably wouldn't stay
half we've had probably wouldn't stay for that that long so uh do you want any
for that that long so uh do you want any more questions or are you tired is there
more questions or are you tired is there anybody who feels that they have to ask
anybody who feels that they have to ask a question before we draw this to a
a question before we draw this to a close today becomes ask question today
close today becomes ask question today yeah I mean you know it might turn out
yeah I mean you know it might turn out to be oh yeah jugu you are the preferred
to be oh yeah jugu you are the preferred questioner of all time I keep asking you
questioner of all time I keep asking you this
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