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Hiring Expert: Why Personal Referrals Can Backfire | The Agency Agency | YouTubeToText
YouTube Transcript: Hiring Expert: Why Personal Referrals Can Backfire
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So after six years of job searching and
really getting clarity on what I wanted,
I finally started as a VP of HR/chief
people officer at a nonprofit community
health center. Um and it was a very long
journey. I became a career coach along
the way which was a little imposttor syndromey.
syndromey.
Um, but I am absolutely thriving and I
have learned so much going rapidly from
I think two months before I had this
job. I was feeling absolutely at my wits
end. I hadn't been getting interviews.
Like I was just absolutely frustrated
to being on the other side of the desk
and now receiving people's resumes and
looking through um our job descriptions
and also posting job ads and
understanding who makes it through and why.
why.
Wow. So, I'll start out with the comment
you made on LinkedIn that has sparked a
really interesting discussion and really
surprised me because it was the opposite
of what I've always been told and yeah,
do you want to summarize that?
Yeah. So, the con conventional wisdom is
when you see a job you're interested in,
reach out to everyone in your network
who might have a connection and try to
get introduced to the hiring manager for
that role. And I recently had that
happen and was really non plused by it
honestly. Um we had the resume had
looked over the candidate. Actually
there's a a backstory there that
sometimes roles are posted for a variety
of reasons. You pushing the hiring
manager actually doesn't make you more attractive.
attractive.
It actually to me was like oh you're a
little desperate and that's not appealing.
appealing.
Wow. Oh, so it comes across as desperation.
desperation.
Yeah, it's not. It does not for me and
truly like your mileage may value may
vary, but for me it was I don't trust
the systems. I don't trust your
processes and I have to wave my hands in
the air and really like catch your attention.
attention.
I don't trust that my resume and
experience. I don't trust that my cover
letter was enough.
So what you're saying is on the the
hiring side, you've set things up the
way you want them to come in. You've
been thoughtful about this. Yes.
Yes.
So when you're circumventing it Yes.
Yes.
Yeah. that actually feels um maybe
insulting or um I guess making your job harder.
harder.
It because then there's another
stakeholder, right? you've asked someone
who has given their social capital to
make this request on some level. So,
they've made themselves vulnerable for
you and there is a system um
organizations work really hard to set
this up and truly
bias is so rampant in the hiring
process. Our job as hiring managers is
to do everything we can to mitigate
mitigate against bias. We want to have a
fair, open, and transparent process
where the best candidate truly does make
it through.
That's a really interesting way to think
about it that um what what we've learned
as applicants is that, you know,
everyone is using every advantage they
have. So, you need to do that, too.
But what you're saying is that results
in a biased system that the best hiring
managers don't want to reinforce.
Exactly. And you don't want to work for
someone who privileges personal
connections, honestly. Right? Think
about the longtail effect of that. Is it
going to be the last voice in the room
who gets their attention? Is this going
to be how they deal with power? Do I
want to hire someone who thinks that the
only way to make a broken system work is
to work the workarounds? No.
Wow. Yeah. Let's um let's steal man the
argument. Um if that's all right. So,
I'm thinking of like we we're both in a
a membership community where when we
share job opportunities, we always say
whether or not we can make an introduction.
introduction.
I think it is useful for anformational
interview like, hey, I'm interested in
learning more about this organization or
this role. I think it is not useful when
you're actually an applicant. And also,
if you're asking for an informational
interview as a way as like a sideway
into an introduction and making yourself
visible, I don't think that's kosher
either. There's a story that's being
told that hiring managers are
overwhelmed with applicants. I think
that's true for fancy brandame hot
organizations that have presence and
have attraction and appeal.
it's going to be hard to break through
there. And in that case, yeah, they
probably do want to limit people to like
the trust has to be pretty high to get
in because everybody wants in.
Most organizations don't have that
though. And so if you're feeling stuck
in your job search process, look at
where you're applying.
We truly don't get more than 13
applicants for most of our jobs. Some
jobs we only get one or two applicants. the
the
Yeah, absolutely. And uh I had trouble
finding the organization. I wasn't
looking for this organization. It was
absolutely cold. I didn't know anybody
in the organization when I applied. I
didn't try to make any connections. And
I went through one of my fellow generous
world members just started a new job.
Zero connections inside. Never would
have even thought about it. And she is
loving it. She's really happy there.
Wow. Thank you for exploding that myth
because yes, I had gotten the impression
on LinkedIn that absolutely any job
that's being posted is getting hundreds
maybe thousands of applicants and they
have no way of sifting through. Nobody
has the time. Maybe they're using AI to
try to figure out what to even look at.
That's the impression you get.
And it's just not true. I think there
are certain jobs I think if it's a
remote job or if it's a job that again
is with a really high-profile company
probably. Yes. Uh I'll tell a quick side
story which I never thought would be
relevant but I used to teach at an
independent school in on the west coast
and the independent school had some very
very famous wealthy families who are
attending that school. Once those
children started the school the school
was no longer doing admissions to find
the best Canada best children the best
family fit. They were filtering out
people because the desire wasn't for the
applicants wasn't, "Oh, I'm gonna get a
great education." It was, "How do I get
connected to these famous people? How do
I get a play date with these people?"
Get a play date.
All right. It's access to power. Wow.
Wow.
And I think if you're looking for a job,
you really need to ask yourself, am I
applying for this job at this company
because it's the right culture fit for
me, the right organization. I have the
experience that matches up with what
they're looking for, or do I think this
is a really sexy brand that I want to be
associated with?
I'll give you a a heartening counter
anecdote, which is that when I was doing
my masters in public health, we went and
visited the state house and we talked
with our representative and she was
saying how important it was, you know,
to actually hear from the constituents
and how she was talking with one of her
other state senators who um who was
absolutely convinced that he had to vote
a certain way because he kept saying,
"Well, I keep hearing from my
constituents." And she said, "How many
did you hear from?" And he said, "Well,
So sometimes, yeah, there there really
is a lot that you can do just just with
your own one voice and one
outreach. Um, but that I guess is in the
form of a cover letter.
This is actually a great point. I'm
really glad you raised it because the
thing people are not doing is writing
cover letters. They're doing easy apply
because they think there's a degree of
cynicism around the job search process.
And I'm actually I'm on vacation this
week and so I've got lots of time for my
brain to like think
and I'm thinking about revising our
application process because people
aren't sending cover letters. And
honestly, you put a cover letter in, you
are already like way ahead of everyone
else because we know more about why
you're interested. You put some thought
into this. This isn't just easy apply.
I had no idea people weren't writing
cover letters. Absolutely. Because the
advice again is nobody reads cover
letters. Not true.
Okay. Um can we dig in a little to what
makes a great
Absolutely. So what makes a great cover
letter is showing that you have done
some research into the organization. You
have a personal connection that you can
advocate for why you want to do this
work at this place. why your experience
is relevant and a little bit of a taste
of the value you're going to bring as
the person who gets hired into this role.
role.
So when you say personal connection you
mean to the work to the job to the role
to the work to the job to the role. if
it's a mission-based organization to the
mission. If it's not a mission-based
organization, they still have a vision.
And tying into that vision of the
founder or the CEO shows that you've
actually spent some time and you've
invested into looking into this company
and you're really sure that you're going
to thrive there and you want to talk
about start a conversation about what
that would look like.
So few people put that level of thought
into it. And I I can hear people saying,
"But that means I'm gonna apply to less
jobs." Uhhuh.
It's It's not about It's not a numbers
game. And that's something else I hear
is that it's a numbers game. It is not a
numbers game. It's a clarity game.
And I agree wholeheartedly. I'm just
thinking my, you know, my domains are
are more in like applying for funding, right,
right,
for projects. Um, and there's, you know,
there's a degree to which there are
factors outside your control. Like you
said, um, in the the job hunting case,
sometimes it really is an internal
search, but you had to post it or something.
something.
Those factors you can't control. But if
you can align
with the organizations who really want
the work you're doing,
then your chances skyrocket as opposed
to trying to wedge something in because
it's available. Yes. Oh my gosh. That
was what unclicked my job search war for
me. It's what unlocked everything.
I stopped trying to apply to places I
was excited about and thought about
places that would be excited about me.
Oo wow.
So when like looking at that covered
letter because I'm always thinking about
what is the very first thing you have to
say. Do you start with here's why I'm
excited about this position and then
backfill here's my background.
Start with the why. Simon Synynic always
says start with the why. So position
yourself as right up front. I saw this
posted on Indeed and I knew I had to
apply because I am so excited about the
work you do. This is why I'm excited
about the work that you do because in my
past I have had this experience, this
connection. Our organization as a
missiondriven organization is very
clearly looking for people with lived
experience. I think that's actually true
for every organization. I think about
the startup tech companies that I
fruitlessly applied to. I had startup
tech experience kind of but not the
lived experience that they could clearly understand.
understand.
What does that look like?
So for them that means that I they would
be looking for candidates who had
actually done a seed to series A um
transition. People who had come in at a
certain level and then progressed to the
next level. People who had worked in not
just tech but that specific sector of
tech. um because there would be less
translation work required and onboarding
on their part.
So when you were working as a coach,
were you helping people figure out like
what companies would be excited about in
their background?
Actually, the first step was even more
basic. It was getting clarity on what
they were looking for
because in I think a lot of job seekers
tried to make themselves be what other
people want. The first step is actually
getting clear on what you want so that
you can more easily see the things that
are going to want you. Okay?
Okay?
Right? So, um, for instance, I've just
been working with someone who, um, has a
real passion for working with adults on
the autism spectrum and helping them
connect with work opportunities and
thrive at work. And so I helped them
identify that as something that there's
that's their core superpower and they
need to look for an organization that
wants that core superpower that they
bring. Unless you have full clarity on
what it is you're looking for, the kind
of place you want to work, where you
thrive, the kind of leadership you want
to work for, you're going to just go
pingponging all over and you're not
going to be successful. Once you have
that level of clarity, the path forward
becomes a lot easier to see
and then you can pour yourself
wholeheartedly into that cover letter.
Yes. And your resume. I think so many
job seekers start with a resume, but a
resume is a narrative of your
experience. And you don't know the story
you want to tell until you have clarity
on the story you want to tell. Wow.
Wow.
Do you recommend that folks are
adjusting their resume for each application?
application?
No. And that's another piece of advice,
right? Which is the amount of time I
spent customizing resumes fruitlessly, right?
right?
So, I recommend that you get a core
resume that speaks to your strengths,
tells the story you want to tell, which
will then align with the opportunities
you're looking for. If you're redoing
your resume for every single
opportunity, it's like shapeshifting and
it tells me you don't have clarity on
what it is you want. You're trying to be
all things to all people. So, don't do that.
that.
It's the toughest thing for some of us
who are general.
I know.
How do you tell the whole story? But it
sounds like maybe part of it is also
recognizing where you are at this moment
in time.
Exactly. You can be a generalist. Be a
generalist. That's fabulous. But at this
point in time, you are this kind of a specialist.
specialist.
The thing about generalists that I've
come to realize is that we love being
generalists. We love our stories. We're
so proud of the ping ponging we've done
and like the interesting routes we've
taken. Nobody else cares.
Oh, no.
They really don't. They want to know
that you can do the job. I just had a
meeting with my boss a couple weeks ago
and I mentioned that I had been a
director of development in a previous
life and he looked at me with raised
eyebrows and he he went that's not on
your resume and I said nope for reasons
and he said well I don't know maybe you
were really bad at your job and I was
like no it's just the most boring thing
I've ever done like I didn't want in my
resume because it wasn't part of my
story I wanted to tell
okay so when you're constructing yours
you want the um the greatest hits the
parts that like really resonated with
you that you want more of. Yeah.
Yes. And also I want to be aware of my
audience and know what story they want
to hear.
I want them to buy a ticket to the show.
Right. And I think that's what's led to
the resume customization is that I'm
applying for this job which has one set
of requirements and this job which is
something else. It sounds like in in
your system that you recommend you get
clear on one type for this search.
Yes. First.
Don't don't try to apply to eight different
different
roles, eight different paths.
Correct. Absolutely. Because there is
one direction that fits you best at this
moment in your life. And it could be a
rejection of what you experienced
before. It could be you connecting the
dots of where you've thrived in the
past. I think every job search is a
little bit of a Goldilocks problem. Um,
and so for myself, I really once I
stopped panicking after six years of
fight or flight. I thought about where I
had thrived in the past and I didn't
thrive in small organizations. I had
plenty of evidence for that.
I loved the ego boost of being with
really big brand named organizations,
but I didn't thrive there either. I
thrived in midsize organizations with
missiondriven leadership and so that's
what I focused on.
That's very succinct. Now, how would I
know as an applicant if an organization
is among those who are receiving
hundreds or is really looking at 13 or three?
three?
This is where you just have to put your
best foot forward. Honestly, like if you
put your best cover letter and your best
resume, you have to trust the process.
Is the process broken? Yeah. Do you want
to work for an organization that has a
broken process? No.
The filtering mechanism? Yes.
Yes. Like
Like
if you want to be one of many, then
load your resume with keywords. Look at
the job description and put every single
word in that job description into your
resume in some form or another. Work the
system that way. But if that's not the
experience you want, if you want to be
seen and known, which if you are using
back channels to get someone to
introduce you to someone on the team,
that is your vibe, then really just
invest in the cover letter, invest in
the resume, and trust that you are enough.
enough.
Could you tell me an example of someone
you hired who did this? Well,
yeah. Actually, I'm really excited to
bring on a new people operations partner in
in
13, no, wait, 12 days. 12 days. I'm like
two weeks. I'm so excited to bring him
on board. Um, he had military
experience, so no directly analogous
like not with our sector. He had worked
in healthcare for most of that. um had
no connections to our organization, did
not do any outreach to anyone on the
team, but just submitted a super
thoughtful cover letter that explained
his journey, um his experience of the
pandemic, why he was doing what he was
doing now, and what excited him about
the role. And we
did not have a ton of candidates. I
think we had six people apply. So, that
was one thing. We were also very
specific in our job description of what
we were looking for. And so, we were
filtering for that. The top thing was
had healthcare experience. And so if you
didn't have healthcare experience, but
you had HR experience, we didn't talk to
you because we really needed that
healthcare experience. Read the job
description. It tells you what you need
to know.
Um anyway, so we interviewed him and he
was our top choice actually from the
moment he applied. He was the person we wanted
wanted
because of the way he shared his story
and his enthusiasm. Yes.
Yes.
He told the story in a way that made
sense to us and resonated with what we
needed to have happen in our organization.
organization.
Are we still talking about a one page?
Absolutely. So, the cover letter should
be one page. Your resume doesn't have to
be. Your resume can be two pages. I
wouldn't go three.
Nothing on your resume should be older
than 10 years. So, that will help you to
edit your resume and make sure that it
stays relevant um to the present. Oh, yeah.
yeah.
I haven't heard that. Really? Drop
everything from more than 10 years ago.
Drop everything from more than 10 years
ago. Think about what you were doing 12
years ago. Is it relevant to what you're
doing now?
In my case, yes. So that's tricky. Maybe
there Yeah, maybe there are exceptions.
So because I was a journalist for 10
years and then I worked with academics
for 10 years
and so much of what I bring is the
ability to have those skills infused
into communications among experts. So
that's actually where I would talk about
that in your cover letter
and introduce that part of your story in
the cover letter. And you could have a
section where you're like journalism
experience and then summarize that, but
only use like dates, where you worked,
and what your role was. Don't go into
full bullet points like you do for your
more relevant experience. Interesting.
Interesting.
So the the cover letter might actually
have more depth. Yes.
Yes.
That's where you put
the resume more detail.
Exactly. So the cover letter is where
you tell your why. And for you, your why
is the journalism. Your journalism
skills help you to connect the dots and
help people tell their stories more
effectively. That's your core superpower
and that's the thing that you bring that
no one else in this sector does. No one
else can have 10 years of journalism in
the places where you're doing journalism
and no one else can tell the stories you
tell the stories. That's your
differentiator. Huh. Fascinating. So, um,
um,
what did you see people doing when you
were, um, sitting next to the
applicants? Like, what was the common approach?
approach?
It's actually painful as a career coach
to go through applicant resumes because
I just want to reach through the screen
and be like, "Honey, you need to redo this."
this." Really?
Really?
Yeah. Um, it's it's painful. Like,
people don't know how to tell their own
story. They don't know how to
do anything other than relay the
chronological order. Um, I see people
not putting in bullet points or putting
in bullet points that are tasks that
basically is like I cut and pasted for
my job description, but I'm not thinking
about the impact I made or the the
secret spice that I bring um what makes
me stand out. So, I just see lots of
missed storytelling opportunities and
people just being like just the facts.
That doesn't help me get excited about
you as an applicant.
So I had heard the advice to uh to
bullet your accomplishments.
Um I had not heard drop everything more
than 10 years old. Are there other
general rules that people are are
violating all the time? So
So
basic resume structure is start with a
summary at the top that encapsulates who
you are as a professional and makes the
connection to why you're excited. very
briefly. Like for instance, if you are
applying to a series A tech company
um or to a more relevant for your
audience perhaps uh to a regional higher
education institution.
In your summary, talk about your
experience in aligned organizations and
that you're an expert. you bring this
level of experience and then put like
what you're looking to do now. So your
what are the challenges you're excited
about and then for your experience start
with your job title then where you
worked and the dates with the month and
the year after or that first line and
then bullet point your experience start
with strong action verbs and talk about
what you accomplish.
For nonprofiters, a lot of us struggled
with the numerical like I don't have
numbers, I don't have data, like I can't
put, you know, in increase sales by 33%
because that's not how we capture metrics.
metrics.
It doesn't have to be numerical in like
that kind of a number way. It just has
to show how the organization or the work
was better because you were there.
And so often people are just like,"I
filed these papers or I
managed this program." That doesn't tell
me what made you special and why I
should bring you onto our team.
So if the resume is kind of like here's
me before I found your job description
and then the cover letter is here's me
when I found your job description.
Yes. And here's me. Once you hire me,
this is why you're going to be so stoked
in six months that you made the decision
to bring me on.
Yes. Um, so anything that really
surprised you with getting to this seat?
I mean, was there anything that
you were doing that you're like, "Oh,
now I know."
Oh my gosh, so embarrassing. Um
yeah, I I think the
I was hitting auto apply for things like
I was just sending my resume. That was
absolutely something I did. I was
applying to jobs where my experience was
so tenuously connected
um that it was ridiculous in backwards.
Like I now see people whose experience
is so tenuously connected I'm like oh no no.
no.
Um, and I also see people and I just I
just had a conversation with a friend
last night who said, "I applied for this
job. I was absolutely perfect. All my
experience lined up and I didn't even
get a screening call." And I see those
resumes come through too sometimes. And
as a hiring manager, I'm like, there's
nothing here that's going to help you
grow. Like, you've already done this
job, so why do you want to continue
doing this job? and
you haven't given me any evidence that
there's something about this job that is
appealing to you other than you feel
like it's an easy like slam dunk for you.
you.
So, you really want to see someone come
in where this moves them forward?
Yes, of course. Because I want you to
stay. And people don't stay when they're
bored. People stay when there is growth
or an impact they can make.
That's so helpful because I've never
heard somebody really explain the
overqualified trap. Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that's what you're doing here.
here. Yeah.
Yeah.
So if it looks like
I can come in and do it in my sleep. Yeah.
Yeah.
Or that um you know I I'm not able to
articulate any way in which this is
going to allow me to flourish and expand.
expand.
Yes. then it's not it makes me less
attractive as a candidate. That's that's
Okay. So, you actually like in the cover
letter might want to communicate the
ways in which it would positively
challenge you.
Yes, absolutely. Talk about how you are
excited to stretch and grow. Where
almost like highlight your growth edges
and how this job feels exciting to you
because it meets your growing edges and
where you want to grow and you want to
change. People don't want to hire people
who can do a job in their sleep because
that means you might be asleep at the job.
job.
Should the should the resume also be
telling a growth journey?
Yes. like how did you do more? No person
unless it's a very low skill job where
repetition is key. Once you're at a
professional level and you have more
than 10 years of experience, so you need
to leave experience off your resume. You
do want to show the story, the arc. How
did you get from here to where you are
now? What changed? What grew? What did
you build? Because I want to see someone
who's invested in their growth because
that means they're going to be invested
in our growth.
So a lot of went from this to this.
Yes. What's the change that happened in
you because of you with you?
So you said at the beginning of our
conversation that there's a lot of
people who sell services based on
inaccurate advice. Can can you highlight
some of that?
So, this is a little bit of a LinkedIn
rant. I think LinkedIn has become
useless. Frankly, it is a marketplace
for consultants who are looking to sell
services, latestage capitalism, etc., etc.
Um, I think that the idea of LinkedIn
was great at the start. I know they've
had trouble monetizing and figuring out
what their product actually is. And so I
think going to LinkedIn for advice
honestly not a great move. Like it's
just it's not good for networking
anymore. The advice you get is
questionable. Um people in a capitalist
framework people are creating a sense of
uh lack and need in you and unworthiness
and then they are offering you the
pathway to become worthy through paying
them money for their services.
And it's sad and it's frustrating and I
think it leads to a lot of confusion on
people's parts. Um, so
so
there are a lot of consultants who will
deliver a six-month package offering
that will take you from lack of
confidence to being fully confident and
they will pitch that and they will tell
you here are all the things you're doing
wrong. Um, I can give you the method to
reach out and build your network. I can
teach you how to and then it's super
easy for you to purchase their services
and then you're locked in for a
six-month contract.
And do you have a sense of what they
actually get?
Uh, it's often prepackaged material. So
it will be um like a a pre a set of
pre-recorded webinars that you have
access to. There will be some kind of
community element where you can exchange
like connect with other people online.
Um there may be some worksheets that you
can download that will help you think
through your process.
Um again your mileage may value vary if
it feels like this is something that
will help you. But I think it's a lot
about mindset shift rather than actual
utility in most cases.
Oh wow.
Yeah. I mean I um I'm in a strange
position where the thing that I'm trying
to sell now is uh journaling. I'm trying
right? And so it's a it's a funny thing
because it's all like you need to get in
touch with yourself and Um, and I mean
it's a strange place to do it, but uh,
yeah, we're all we're all navigating
shifting waters.
Yeah, we really are. I will say that the
value ad you bring, like specifically
you, is that you have these incredible
workshops that I know change people.
You guide them and you teach them tools
that they can activate without paying
more money that they really inhabit. And
even if they don't just the space the
spaciousness you provide in your live
sessions and you could do this in
recording too like I don't think it
would be as impactful but the community
that you build just for that hour that
you're with people that is a value
people are longing for connection
connection is expensive both in terms of
energy and time and so people are trying
to figure out how to reduce the cost of
that so they can widen the pool of
people who can access it. Um, I don't
know that that's I don't know that scale
is always the answer,
right? Yeah, we've talked about that. Yeah,
Yeah,
I appreciate that. Um, it is funny when
you're trying to do something that like
all the names for these things. Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, have have been overused. And so it's
like, well, even journaling doesn't
necessarily describe what it is I'm up
to, which is very much about enabling
people to
understand how they feel and why,
you know, and what they really want like
you were talking about. Um, and but like
workshops, there's a million workshops,
so it does become a very crowded, noisy
environment. Yeah. You're talking about
emotional literacy
and um
transparency into your feelings and I
think that's essential. I honestly if we
could make that a school curriculum in
college like first year everything
everything
it would.
Yeah. Um well and to circle back to the
question the original idea of like the
personal connection is the is the
exception when what you want is to
understand the workplace.
So you're not even um asking for someone
to pass your name along. You just want
to have a conversation with someone there
there
so that you can figure out whether or
not you actually would feel good in that environment.
environment.
Absolutely. And that makes a lot of
sense. It's like, hey, I'm just And
don't ever use the expression pick your
brain. Please don't ever use that. It's
just it's like physiological grossness. Don't.
Don't.
But like I'm interested in learning more
about the work you do. People are
fundamentally egocentric,
which is why the approach that people
most people take in applying for jobs is
egocentric about them. Your job is to
make it egocentric about your audience.
So people love talking about themselves.
They love sharing their career journey.
They love talking about where they work.
They love marketing. Even if they don't
like the word marketing, what you're
doing when you talk about your work is marketing.
marketing.
So yes, that like that attaches to
someone's ego and like you know, if
you've got 15 minutes, I would love to
learn more about your career journey and
Although if if my objective is actually
to learn more about that work place. Yes.
Yes.
Is it okay to say that?
Yes, absolutely. Like I'm interested in
learning more about this workplace and
it could be the sector that you're in
and you're an example of this or your
organization. I've been hearing some
good things or I'm interested in
learning about more companies in this
space. like I'm really interested in
regional higher education institutions
and I'm just learning looking to learn
more about how they work on the inside.
That's fine. Um your success rate for
response isn't going to be high. I will
say that. So that's
it's going to be persistence that gets
you there. Um but you don't need it to
be high. You just need one or two yeses,
right? Oh my gosh, this is a big ship to
try to
barge, you know, to try to turn around
the idea of let me find a personal
connection. And you know, you would
often hear like, okay, I'll keep an eye
out for your application. Something like
that. We don't want to hear that. We
don't want
No. And that doesn't mean anything. Like
truly, an effective application or an
effective hiring process is unbiased.
Um, I would love to find a way to remove
names and higher education from
applications because I want to remove as
much bias potential as possible. I want
to look purely at someone's experience. Wow.
Wow.
Yeah. Any anything I forgot to ask you
that you wish you could tell applicants?
Uh just to reiterate, it really is
quality over quantity. So do your
homework. It should be 70% of your
effort should be on the front end, which
is looking at yourself, understanding
what you want, getting clarity on that.
And then the final 30 is the resume and
cover letter and identifying the
organizations and leadership that you
want. I think we have the whole process
turned upside down
because yeah, if it's a numbers game,
which is what everybody thinks, I mean,
why not apply to those tenuously linked ones?
ones?
These are the same people who are doing
online dating and wondering why they
don't have a relationship yet. I would
say it's because you don't know the kind
of relationship you want. And so, you're
just casting a wide net hoping for any
kind of bite. And I think there are a
lot of people are unhappy because they
settle for the bite instead of knowing
what kind of fish they want to catch.
Oh yes, I have a whole journaling
exercise around that too.
I'm so glad to hear it.
Oh yes.
So much fun. Thank you so much for
talking with me.
This was a joy. It's always good to
catch up with you. They love your brains.
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