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Lyle McDonald Goes to WAR With These 5 Barbell Lifts (Squat, Bench Press, Deadlift, OHP, and Row)

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The "Big Five" barbell exercises (squat, bench press, deadlift, overhead press, bent-over row) are often promoted as the best for muscle growth, but this content argues they are not universally optimal for hypertrophy due to limiting factors beyond the target muscle and potential for injury.

F the big five.

>> F the big five. You've wanted to talk

about this for quite some time.

>> I've started the video at least twice

and gave up on. >> Cool.

>> Cool.

>> Because I got bored. So, it's about time.

time. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> So, first let's define some terms. What

do we

What are the big five?

>> Well, the big five come out of the big three,

three,

which are squat, bench, deadlift,

generally speaking.

Sure, someone someone might replace the

deadlift with one of the other two.

Those are the big three movements.

>> Yeah, they're the power lifts,

>> right? The big five >> powerlifting.

>> powerlifting.

>> The big five would include the overhead

press and the bent over row. Those are

usually considered the big five barbell movements

movements

that you will see in most 5x5 systems,

starting strength, strong lifts, any

number of them.

You can go Google right now

best exercises for mass gangs and more

articles than not will have those

listed. The big barbell movements are

best for mass gangs. You'll see it repeatedly.

repeatedly.

>> You'll often see dips and chin-ups or

pull-ups thrown in.

>> Yeah. I mean there there is slight

variation. Um you know years ago Pavle

wrote an article I think it was overhead

pre or book overhead press and deadlift

were the big two but it like it tends to

revol yes there others will be included

but almost without exception. Those will

be part of it or the more general if you

don't do these lefts you're pansy.

That's not the actual P word that's

typically used, but I'll try to make

this easier for you to not get

demonetized or have to be have to bleep

out less of my language. >> Right.

>> Right.

>> Thank you. Very considerate.

>> I try. I know. I I know I've missed a

couple times, but I'm doing my best. So,

these movements have been around

forever. They are they are held up as

the beall endall. You must squat. You

must bench. You must deadlift.

Now, yes, that's true if you're a powerlifter.

powerlifter.

They are part of your competition package

package

except unless you do push pull because

you don't want to squat or bench only

because you don't want to squat or

deadlift or deadlift only because you

don't want to squat or bench.

There's a fed here that does squat only

and I can't imagine why anyone's want to

do that. That's nuts. But they are part

of the competition package. You're a

powerlifter, you must do this movement.

Olympic lifters generally must at least

front squat.

Whether or not they deadlift, that's a

lot more variable. Most, I would dare

say, do not. It's not part of most

systems. Very few bench press.

Even strongman,

you would be surprised at what patterns.

I met a strongman competitor power a

bunch of years ago, and he's like,

"Yeah, I had to learn how to squat for

this. He decided to come to a power

meet." is like we don't squat for strong

men because it's not generally a

movement pattern that they do. Now

they'll do deadlift, they'll do push

press or strict press like the log, but

they don't do bench other than general

general preparatory.

They deadlift because they usually do

deadlift for reps of some sort. Yeah,

he's like, "Yeah, I had to I had to

learn how to squat or relearn how to

squat, which I thought was interesting."

But talk about performance. What about hypertrophy?

hypertrophy?

Are these the best movements for

hypertrophy? Now, let me qualify this

because everybody always mishares me

whether usually deliberately because

they are incapable of listening to my

work. Okay? I am not anti-quat. I am not

anti-bench. I am not anti-de.

I did them all when I was younger. I was

pretty good. I was decent at squat and

deadlift. I was terrible at bench.

I've trained powerlifters

to high levels. I'm not against these

movements in as much anymore than I'm

against most things. Matter of context,

matter of situation

anymore than I am for or against

training to failure. It depends. I

realize this is a hard concept to under

because soon as people hear this go

sucks at squats. No, I'm pretty sure I

probably squatted more than you and

better than you. I squatted high bar,

rock bottom. I've done a power I've

competed in powerlifting at a mediocre

level. I've trained powerlifters. Trust me,

me,

>> some pissed off power.

>> I know more about squats than everybody.

Trust me, I've done more squats than you

have. I miss

>> You're being prestigious, right? That's

an appeal to authority.

>> I'm just making a point. People go like,

"Oh, Loyal just doesn't like squats

because he's bad." No, I used to love squatting.

squatting. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> I missed it for years. Now I can't do it

because my hips messed up and I don't

bend that way anymore. I'm not against

squats. I'm not or venture dead. I'm

against the global

recommendation of those movements for

optimal hypertrophy.

Let me rephrase that. I am against the global

global

elevation of the big five

as the best movements for skeletal

muscle hypertrophy for all individuals.

Is that enough qualifications? Because

now we're going to walk through them.

Let's do that. Let's build a model of

what stimulates hypertrophy. And I'll

try to keep this quick.

I think we talked about this in the

previous thing, but for background.

And look, if these other people can use

appeals to authority, so can I.

>> The appeal to the bandwagon.

>> Yeah. Whatever. Appeal to

whoever I want to appeal to. Okay.

Unless you're one of a couple of

individuals in this industry, we know

that to cause a muscle fiber to grow, it

must be recruited.

There a couple people that don't think

that's true. I'm not getting into that

discussion. I think there will. Yes,

fine. Whatever. Because they'll see.

Yes, I get it. There is lateral tension

through the integrans and the connective

tissue matrix. Guys, I know more about

it than you do. Trust me. Anyway, we're

going to go from that context. Now we

know that muscle fibers can be recruited

in one of two ways. Well, they generate

force in one of two ways. Recruitment

and rate coding. Rate coding just means

how fast the signals come from the

brain. Recruitment means the fibers

actually being recruited. Now muscle

fibers are recruited in order from

smallest to largest, from slow to fast

twitch according to something called

Henman size principle. Basically the

more force you need to generate, the

more high threshold fast twitch muscle

fibers are recruited. Right? So if

you're walking, slow twitch fibers, low

force requirements. Move into a jog,

maybe some type two, run to full sprint,

high threshold.

Now in the weight room, you can recruit

and you can recruit fibers through two

different approaches.

One, you can use very heavy weights

above roughly 80 to 85% of maximum,

about 5 to eight reps. You'll get full

fiber recruitment from about repetition

one, maybe repetition two.

So you can use heavy weights for low repetitions

repetitions

or you can use high repetitions

to failure.

That's why hence the new idea there is

no hypertrophy range. Any repetition

range will work if you go to failure and

there is contextual truth to that.

So if you do a set of eight,

you will probably get full recruitment

from about rep two. Let's say you do an

allout set of eight, just for example.

Not recommending failure, making a

point. You'll get five repetitions under

full recruitment. What we're now calling

effective repetitions.

But let's say you do a set of 15 to failure.

failure.

You won't get full recruitment till that

rep 10.

You'll get about as you get tired, as

bar speed slows,

the body will have to call in higher

threshold muscle fibers. Fight type two.

The last three to five repetitions of an

allout set of 15 is neurologically physiologically

physiologically

identical to the final five sets of a

set of eight. You just set of 25 to

failure. Same thing. The final five

repetitions will look the same. They'll

physiologically they're essentially the

same. I don't want to get into all.

That's why it all generates the same hypertrophy

because you're seeing full recruitment.

You're getting the same five effect. The

difference is just in how many reps you

had to do to get there.

Heavy set of eight. What I say you do

heavy set of five 100 kilos by five by

five. You'll get full recruitment from

rep one.

You got five effective reps. Five reps

under full recruitment. >> Sure.

>> Sure. >> Did

>> Did

kilos by 15.

>> Well, even you did a set of five at an

ARM, you'll still get a number of

repetitions at full recruitment. That's

why you do not have to go to failure

with heavy weights, but you do have to

go to failure with light weights. And

the data to it anyway, right?

>> Go with low load training. If it's not

to failure, you don't get much growth.

>> How low are we talking?

They usually use 30% for 25 reps.

>> Yeah. So that's very light.

>> Yeah. The low stuff. Now BFR is

different. The blood flow restriction.

You do get recruitment. You don't have

to go to failure because the

accumulation of metabolites increases

fiber recruitment sooner.

But it doesn't matter. Here's the point.

To stimulate a muscle to grow, you must

recruit it and you must expose it to

some amount of mechanical work.

My point is that you can get to

recruitment in multiple ways. Heavy

weights for low repetitions, light

weights essentially to failure for

higher. Just a matter of how many you

had to do beforehand, right? Even people

are like, "Oh, well 25 reps gives you

the same growth as eight." I like, "Yay,

but you had to dick around for 20 to get there,

there,

right? It's the same, but you have to do

three times as much work. It hurts 10

times as much and you'll probably throw

up. Doesn't improve bone mineral

density. It doesn't improve maximum

strength. So, yes, it's interesting in a

physiological sense. But in a practical

sense, I still think there is a

practical hypertrophy range somewhere

between six and 12.

Low reps tend to take too long and wear

out your joints. High reps are boring

and make people want to throw up. And

BFR made me looks cool and edgy on

Instagram. And I think that fad I think

that fad has gone.

It's great if you're injured to reduce

joint loading, but that's separate.

Okay, let's continue building this

model. We know that you do need to take

a muscle

to within a certain proximity to failure

to get growth.

Generally, I think most would agree

somewhere between zero to three. zero

zero reps in reserve which would be you

could not complete another repetition

three reps in reserve you could get

three more that's usually bar speed will

generally have slowed at that point

which is a generally a good indication

that you have gotten full recruitment

you are nearing limits

yes I know there was one really dumb

metaanalysis that looked at this that

anybody that took seriously I I question

it suggested that you could get growth

at 21 reps in reserve so if you did four

reps within RM unload you'd grow. Sure.

Cool. I believe you. Absolutely >> amazing.

>> amazing.

>> Amazing stuff. Maybe if you're untrained

at 80 because it but even then it showed

that as you got closer to zero reps in

reserve you did get more growth. Zero to

three maybe zero to four. That's

>> all right. So So where is this going?

How does all this relate to the big

five? I think I can see.

>> Sure you can. But I'm getting there.

Okay. So

>> you'll get that. We must recruit a fiber

in the target muscle. We must expose it

to a certain number of effective

repetitions. And we can argue about how

many might be optimal in a given

workout. That's a separate discussion.

And we know that we must take the muscle

the muscle to a certain

proximity to failure, which we're going

to say is between zero and three reps in

a result because that's where people get

it wrong.

Generally in these studies or in the

real world they talk about taking an

exercise to a certain repetition and

result and this is a problem.

So let's say our goal is to train the quads.

quads.

People go squats. Squats are best for

quads. Well squats is a complicated

movement. Requires a good deal of

coordination. It involves a lot of

muscle groups. quads, glutes, little bit

of hamstring, low back, upper back.

There's a lot going on.

Now, let's say I take a random

individual to two reps in reserve on the

squats, which I dare say most people

listening to this have never done. And

if you have, send me the video. I'd love

to be proven wrong. And yet somehow

people never sent me the video because

if it didn't slow down a lot, you didn't

get and I dare say none of you have ever

gone to zero. I've done it. I've seen it

done. I wouldn't recommend it. Let's say

you take an individual to provably two

reps in reserve. Okay.

Okay.

What caused that individual to stop and sell?

sell?

Was it their quads? Was it their glutes?

Was it their low back giving out? Was it

their upper back giving out?

We don't know. Now, if someone is built

well for squats, by which I mean they're

typically, if they're not shorter, they

have short femurss. They can squat very

upright, very high bar, a lot of knee flexion,

flexion,

>> not a lot of load on their low back or

upper back.

It's more likely that their quads

are what limited the set.

Now, let's take someone who's very tall,

has very long femurs.

who has a weak upper back, who has a

weak lower back when they hit two reps

in reserve.

Can we say that their quads

are what hit two reps in reserve? Well,

we don't know. I don't know. And you

don't know. And they might, they might

not have. Realistically, they probably didn't.

didn't.

Now, let's say I put that same person on

a hack squat

who has got long legs and I take them in

two reps in reserve.

I can say with pretty decent certainty

that their quads are probably what

limited them. Yeah, it could be glutes.

It like it could be other variables.

But now let's say I take put them on a

leg extension machine and I take them to

two reps reserve.

I know what failed. I know what I know

what muscle

received an effective stimula.

It was the quads. It had to be because

there's nothing else. There's nothing

else it could be. Think about the bench

press, right? Again, we've got the

balance, compound movement, the

complexity, triceps, front delts, serrus

anterior. If someone is built to bench,

usually they typically have a barrel

chest, very short arms.

But take someone who's got big long ass

arms like me. Mine.

>> I've got a long way to move a bench

press. And likely my triceps are going

to give out long before my chest. If I

take a bench press to two reps in

reserve, was it my pecs that got to two

reps in reserve or was it my triceps?

If I do a pec deck to two reps in

reserve, I guarantee it was my pecs.

So, the reason that I say f the big five

as a global recommendation

is well, let me back up.

If we're talking about exercises for

skeletal muscle hypertrophy, not

strength, not getting better at the squat,

squat,

hypertrophy. Hypertrophy is local. It

means exposing the target muscle to a

given tension and amount of mechanical

work to a certain proximity to failure.

Any exercise that has a limiting factor

that is not the target muscle will not

be an effective exercise or hypertrophy

for that muscle. So if you are benching

for chest and either don't know how to

use your pecs during the bench which is common

common

or your triceps are failing very early

that means that the pecs are not being

exposed to a proper stimulant. Let's

look at the deadlift. Okay,

Solomon, what does the deadlift train?

>> Hamstrings, glutes, spinal erectors,

traps, grip. If you're not using straps

or if you have a really weak grip,

>> right? People will say the deadlift

trains everything. There is no

everything muscle, >> right?

>> right? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Growth is local in training everything.

The deadlift essentially trains nothing

except the deadlift. Because if you are deadlifting

deadlifting

realistically what is going to be

limiting well grip

>> probably the low back

>> perhaps generally low back is what will

give out generally speaking unless you

are built perfectly

everything is balanced

well if you're trying to train your low

back maybe that's fine but there are way

more time efficient and energy efficient

ways of training your low back that will

not exhaust you

>> could do like Jefferson curls

>> whatever do back extensions I don't give

a [ __ ] Like it doesn't. Sorry. I don't

give a damn. Like whatever to do to use

deadlifts. I once had someone tell me,

"Oh, I I think of squats as a core

exercise. If you're using squats to

train core, you are doing it wrong." Why

would you use an exercise so physically exhausting

exhausting

to train your core for God's sake?

Deadlifts are physically and emotionally

exhausting. If you got to get a better

deadlift, you got to do it. Make no

mistake. But what are they training in

term? What target muscle is being

exposed to the proper stimulus? Nothing.

Nothing.

Bent over row, it's usually low back

that gets out

long before upper back. Now,

am I saying that these movements are

inherently bad? No. And that's where

people get confused.

I noticed years ago that this is how

most people will approach exercise

selection and recommendations. If

someone says this exercise is best for hypertrophy,

hypertrophy,

it means they're built for it. Period.

It fits them. They are able to use it to

effectively train the target muscle to a

sufficient proximity to failure. If they

say this exercise is bad for hyper

croaking, either they're not built for

it or they never learned how to do it

properly. But it's usually the first

one. And here's a really interesting

example of this. Someone I know knows

Tom Plattz personally.

Tom Plattz was built to squat and he

learned high bar Olympic squatting from

a very early age.

>> I think I know who this someone is. >> Uh

>> Uh

>> won't shut up about Tom Platz.

>> I don't even I'm not sure I remember

>> the experiences he's had with him. >> But

>> But >> anyway,

>> anyway,

>> Tom Plattz would say, "Oh, you got to

squat for big legs." >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Because he was built for it. But in the

same breath, he would go because there

was another body world that said, "Oh

yeah, bench press is best for pecs." And

Tom Platz would go, "No, I don't think

bench is very good for chest." Because

he wasn't built for it. But he couldn't

he couldn't make he couldn't see that.

Couldn't see that the reason he felt

that squads were best for quads. They

might have been best for him and that's

fine. So what happens is you get people

that happen to be built for certain well

for certain movements or just have a

macho attachment more more than anything

that think oh well this is best for me

because I'm built for it works great for me.

me.

>> Yeah. And then you get somebody who's

tall who's built like you or Sunni for

whom squats are a low back movement and

they never get anything out of their

quads ever or they get

>> I I believe I have gotten a decent

amount out of squats but it's it's been

you know a lot of effort like getting

the movement right for me. I train at

home for the unaware listeners. I just

have a barbell power rack and I make do

you know

>> right and there I mean and there look

there are ways to make things better in

terms of you know you can get heeled

shoes you can you know put your heels up

to get you a little bit

>> back of a wedge you know and I can squat

reasonably upright

>> but the wedge and that but that makes a

really big difference because it is

changing the biomechanics someone that

can't do that

>> doesn't have that option you know and

again and and some of this like you will

and this is where you'll see differences

between women and

Right now there are no women specific

and men's specific exercises. That was

the thing back in the there were, you

know, mass gaining exercises and toning

exercises and men did one and women did

the other and all this other ridiculous

[ __ ] But there is some truth to that.

Many women, well the majority of women

have more muscle mass in the lower body

than their upper body. Men tend to be a

little more even. So women's legs can

frequently move a lot more in the squat

than their shoulder caner than they can

comfortably shoulder.

So, if they're back squatting for quads

or glutes and their upper back is what's

giving out, they have picked an exercise

that has a limiting factor that is not

the target muscle. That's why hip

thrusts were a very valuable movement.

It took the upper body out of it. It

took all that other stuff and allowed

the glutes to be isolated.

So, when I say f the big five, I'm not

saying it in a global sense. I'm saying that

that

>> saying that those are the best movements

for hypertrophy for all people is

myopic. It's really a bunch of macho BS

because weight training is the only

place I can think of that in 2025 people

are still married to 100y old

technology. There is nowhere else in the

world where people like well this is how

guys got big in the did it in the 20s.

We should go back to uh slide rules like

calculators, cell phones. Let's go back

to the telegraph. The reason guys did

squat bench deadlift in the early 20th

century is that's all there was to do.

They did that because that's what was avail

that that was all and even then they

were trying to find more efficient ways

to train the muscle. early leg press variations.

variations.

They just crazy stuff. And I think

there's a reason that if you look at a

lot of top bodybuilders,

especially the ones that stay injuryfree,

injuryfree,

they do a lot more machines than free

weights in the modern era because a

well-built machine will let you isolate

and focus the target muscle in a way

that the big barbell movements

frequently do.

If you're not built to deadlift, if you

got bad levers, you're not only going to

get nothing out of that movement, you're

going to get hurt.

>> Now, now one counter argument might go,

yes, your low back might be the first

thing to fail on a properly executed

deadlift. But if you take your deadlift

from 200 lb to 500 lb, then no matter

how poorly you're built for it, all the

muscles involved in the deadlift will

have hypertrophied in the process. Yes,

obviously low back, but also hamstrings,

traps, glutes.

>> You think that's a stretch?

>> No, I I don't disagree with that except

for the fact that if someone's not built

for a deadlift, it's never going to

happen in a million years that they're

>> 200 to 500.

>> Hell no. How many 500 pound deadlifts

have you ever seen, dude?

>> I mean,

>> I've been in gyms for 30 years. That

300, 400, 500. Tell me how many you've

ever seen any go into any commercial gym.

gym.

>> It's actually true. I can pull 500, but

>> yeah, I haven't really seen it.

>> It's It's not a common. You don't see

that. So, yes, that argument is there,

but when you talk to people that are not

built for these movements, they train

men for years and make no results. They

get no gains. So, yeah, that's a great

theory. That's like the the argument.

Well, what would be bigger shoulders? A

300lb overhead press or 30 pound lateral

raise. A that shows total ignorance of

lever arms, but I've never seen a 300lb

overhead press. And someone not built to

overhead press is never going to get

from 95 pounds to 300 ever.

>> So, you don't disagree in, you know,

theory, but just in practice, it

probably won't happen.

>> No, it's not a matter of probably won't.

It's a matter of it never like it just doesn't.

doesn't.

>> Yeah. If you're really fully Yeah.

>> It just doesn't happen.

>> Especially not for reps. Maybe you can pull

pull

>> 500 by eight in a Hell no. Absolutely

not. I mean, look, here's an like here's

an appeal to authority, but it just

happens to make my point. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> The Chinese Olympic lifters who have

made being jacked a national pastime,

right? Olympic lifters have gone through

phases of being relatively more or less muscular.

muscular.

Those guys make put bodybuilders to

shame and here's how they train. They

actually train the way I've trained

people my entire career. He said not at

all smugly. They practice the Olympic

lifts relentlessly.

Heavy reps, low rep. Heavy weights, low

reps. They fix weak points, very

specific exercises. They squat twice a

week and then they do bodybuilding work.

usually isolation stuff

because all the coaches care about is

stimulating the muscle for hypertrophy

because a larger muscle is a potentially

stronger muscle. They do just

bodybuilding stuff,

various lateral raises, leg extensions.

I mean, I'm sure some of but a lot of

them they're tend to be very short. They

don't squat for they squat for squat for size,

size,

right? Dorian

used mostly machines by the end of his

career. One of his big learnings, he

said, you know, he was back squatting

and got hurt

and he switched to the Smith machine and

he realized, wow, this is actually a

much better quad stimulus on top of

being safer because when you get that

strong, trying to squat for high reps is

a good way to get wrecked if something

goes wrong. I think there's a reason

that he stayed relatively injury-free

his entire career.

Eventually, the heavy barbell stuff

catches up with you. And there are

often, again, I'm not saying they're bad

for everybody. There are cases where

they must be used, like if that's all

the equipment you've got and you have to

work within the potential that you've

got. But if you're not built for that

movement, if that exercise has any

limiting factor, that is not the target

muscle. That's really the most

generalized statement I can make.

And I know we did talk about this at one

point. forget if it was it was like you

know what are like the four big

components of making that make an

effective hypertrophy exercise which is

that it must fit the person allow them

to train the target muscle to a

sufficient intensity be safe and

progressible and for people with poor

biomechanics poor is the wrong word for

people with certain biomechanics

the big five are a losing battle period

period

And there will be other and I maintain

one of these days I'll get a guinea pig.

But I've said this and nobody has yet to

give me a reason why this wouldn't work.

I maintain that you could take someone

from untrained to their genetic

potential with nothing but isolation exercises

exercises

because there will be that will allow

you to train the target muscle as

effectively as directly as efficiently

as humanly possible. And I've had people

go, "That won't work." And I say, "Why?"

And they go,

"Because you're stupid, lol." No one

I've not I've yet to hear a

physiological. Now, yes, there are

practical issues. I'm not talking about practicalities,

practicalities,

right? Obviously, compound movements can

be efficient. They train multiple

muscles. I'm not saying that you can run

into problems with incrementing

isolation movements. There are practical

issues that would cause problems with

this. You're trying to train upper body

and you're doing eight sets of isolation

movements with no crossover. That's a

lot of volume, right? Like

>> that's a separate issue though from a

purely physiological standpoint in terms

of stimulating the target muscle or

muscle group. And that's a separate complexity

complexity

that just has to do with exercise

choice. I see no fundamental reason why.

And and if you don't agree with that,

well then a answer me the question, why

can you get big biceps with nothing but

isolation barbell curls? Why wouldn't

that work for quads? Why wouldn't that

work for hamstrings? Why wouldn't that

work for pecs? If it'll work for biceps

and triceps or delves,

why wouldn't it work for the bigger?

Because you got to squatter European

>> because of Israel's mythical raw

stimulus magnitude.

>> Cool story, bro.

>> Remember that whole thing?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Like, oh, these movements are inherently

more hypertrophic of logic and actual

science. If you can get the biggest

biceps possible with nothing but an

isolation exercise,

why fundamentally would it not work? We

know that in a lean lean back, here's

one that'll piss everybody off. I was

gonna pick one quad exercise for someone

>> like I don't like the you could only do

one exercise per muscle group question

because I think it's dumb. But there's a situation

situation >> extensions.

>> extensions.

>> Yes. And here's why. We know that

compared to a leg press or a squat or a

hack squat, leg extensions hit the

rectus traorus and the others don't. If

you wanted to hit all four heads of the

quadriceps, VMO, VL, RF, and vasis

intermediates that no one cares about

because it's it's deep, the leg

extension would get it and a leg press

or squat or hack squat wouldn't. You can

pick one exercise would be leg

extension. If you had to pick one for

hamstrings or RDL's, aha.

>> Yeah. They don't hit the biceps for short.

short.

>> What about biceps for short head, which

is only a hip flexor?

>> They just hit the semmitenosis,

semimebinosis, and biceps for long head.

Yeah. Only leg curl will hit all four in

one exercise. Ha. >> Yeah,

>> Yeah,

>> I can tra. So there you go.

>> Still still you could build some pretty

massive hamstrings with RDL's and

squats. Sorry. Yeah. Massive quads and

hamstrings with squats and RDL's alone.

You could. It's been done many times.

>> If you're Yes. And many people have

toiled at squats for years and gotten

nothing. Like this was probably propaganda.

propaganda.

>> Sure. Like Fred Hatfield, Arthur Jones

claimed that Fred Hatfield had the

weakest quads of anyone he'd ever

trained tested, which is probably

propaganda BS, but if you

>> That sounds that sounds unlikely.

>> Look, even Well, the thing is, but if

you look at the way Hatfield squats, it

was all low back, glutes, and

hamstrings. He was not a quad.

Powerlifting squats done frequently are

not quad dominant. Even Louie said that

he focused on the posterior chain for

squats because the way they squatted was

way more hitter.

You can find plenty of powerlifters that

do not have great quads until they start

doing bodybuilding stuff and then their

quads explode because they're actually

training the quads for the first time.

>> Yeah. The the way I squat is narrow

stance, plenty of heel elevation, high

bar, pause at the bottom, control on the

way down.

>> Absolutely. Yes. But the thing is that

without specific equipment or specific

>> for many people that can't be done and

once femurss are beyond a certain point

there ain't nothing you can do to get

people up upright beyond a certain

point. I we spent years with with Sunni

>> not even in stiletto heels.

>> Well maybe yeah maybe we I mean we had

her in a one and a quarter inch heel. We

worked she toiled. She had great ankle

mobility. Still only going to be was

only ever going to be so good. It was a

terrible quad. And

>> I built what little quad she had with

isolation, leg extensions and hack

squats because squats were going to be a

losing battle for her. There was always

going to be a set limiter that was

nothing to do with her quads.

>> So again, to sum up, I am not against

the big five Bards.

>> I am against the global recommendation

of them being best for hypertrophy for

all people.

And sure, I still would argue that for a

majority of people, if your goal is hypertrophy,

hypertrophy,

>> that's the big five up, period. Unless

that's all you've got. You've got access

to well-built machines that let you

train the target muscle more

effectively, more efficiently, with less

overall stress and exhaustion, you'll

get more gains,

>> right? So, I guess follow-up question

could be, what would be your go-to

replacements for each of the big five?

So, yeah. If squats are held to be a

great lower body movement, what might

you replace it with?

>> Hack squat, pendulum squat.

>> Yeah. Just for the stability back.

>> Anything to simply to remove the

stability component, the low back issue,

the upper back issue, and the fact that

if something goes wrong on a back squat,

you get wrecked,

right? you tip over, you get out of

position, something happens. Back squat,

you get wrecked. That does not happen on

those other exercises. Bench press, I

would put in any chest press.

>> Yeah. And people really shouldn't take

that lightly. Like, yeah, it's dangerous

and people forget that

>> squatting with a barbell on your back. >> Like,

>> Like,

>> yes. If something goes wrong,

>> died doing it

>> multiple times. Yes, people get severely

injured. And trust me, if you ever had a

low back injury, you never want one

again. to their life. Like they could be

career enders, right? And and as you get

stronger, progressive tension, like

again, there's a limit. There's a limit.

Squatting squatting heavy weights for

reps is a

>> I'm not trying to fear monger. I'm sure

you're not either.

>> No, I'm absolutely not.

>> I think it is it is important.

>> Yeah. Just to know. Yeah. Like things

can go seriously wrong whenever you're

in the weight room. And some exercises

lend themselves to injuries more than others.

others. >> Well,

>> Well, >> factually,

>> factually,

>> yes. Not to mention that,

>> I'll come back to this. People will

often, it's it's always interesting to

me, the exercises that people will

choose to promote and choose to deny

based on injury risk. Let me come back

to that in a second because frequently

they'll be like, "Oh, this small

isolation exercise potentially

injurious, but I recommend squats, power

cleans, and deadlifts to everyone."

>> Anything can cause an injury if

something goes wrong, but the magnitude,

scope, and type of injury can very be

very different. >> Yes,

>> Yes,

>> I I've had a shoulder impingement and

they're no fun. I'll take that over the

disc injury I had, the spinal injury I

had any day of the week.

>> Injury is not one thing. And some

injuries are career endures. Or if not,

they'll make the rest of your life super miserable.

miserable.

And trying to go heavy on the big

barbell movements constantly over time

will take its toll. Sorry, can take its

toll. Hell, even if you look at plats,

he was not doing high rep squatting

every workout. He talked about that. He

only that only

>> he squatted once every two weeks, right?

>> Yeah. Exactly. And that's not how people

are thinking like, oh, you know,

especially the squat high frequency BS.

But it's like, yeah, if you actually

look at what he was doing. Yeah, he was

doing the big squat work. We're not

>> should tell you about Ivon Juricha.

>> Anyway, what just

>> So, so yeah, for most people

at squat, pendulum squat, quad dominant

leg press, you'll be able to actually

hit the target muscle with less overall

fatigue and with less potential risk.

Like, yeah, can you can you get hurt on

a leg press? Yeah, if you round your low

back and do something, absolutely. I'm

not saying that machines are injury

risk-f free, but I've had stuff go wrong

on a back squat. I've seen stuff go

wrong on a back squat. When it goes

wrong, it goes bad very quickly and

very, very badly.

Okay. Bench press, any chest press,

machine chest press, good hammer chest

press, anything that takes away the

stability and the fear. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Right now, the bench press is probably

one of the few places where people have

truly gone to zero reps reserve.

Although it's usually crappy high school

bouncing bench press BS, but you're

training by yourself. Talk about people

dying. Bench press is a great way to do

it. You get a bar dropped on you or you

get it caught in your throat, you die.

I've seen some ugly thing. Again, I'm

not fear-mongering. I'm saying it

happens a lot. But if you go to zero,

let's say, let's say, let's say you're

going to zero reps reserve. Again, not

recommending failure. Let's say that

that's how you train. You get a true

failure on a bench press. You don't get

that last rep and you don't have a

spotter or you are in trouble. Or you

get out of

>> Yeah, I have safeties so I can go to

zero or I do it often more than I should

I think. But

>> yeah, I've done it in a safety rack or

with always with SP. Always with safeties.

safeties. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> If you're on a chest press and you get

stuck, you just go doink and you're

And you will be and if you learn to

bench check bench with your pecs article

on my website called benching with the

packs because most people are very bad

at it. You will actually get a better

chest. You've taken away the balance

component right now. Triceps may still

be limiting on a chest press. So maybe

you pre-exhaust, maybe you do a couple

sets of pec deck first

>> and then go to chest press.

>> There's actually I want to say it was

Lee Labrada. I saw some dumb reel on

Facebook, but there I know there have

been bodybuilders that even when they

back squatted, they did it last in their

leg workout.

And his logic

>> must have been Lee Priest.

>> Yes, I think you're right.

>> Very least talked about this. I know you got

got

>> because that way he could back squat

your back. He'd already done leg

extensions, hacks, whatever. His quads

retired. It allowed him to use much

lighter weight

>> on that movement and still and I think

he was also in the Smith machine and

actually get a better quad stimulus

without all the other issues that are

inherent to putting four or five wheels aside.

aside. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> On a squat ball. So that that would be

what you know and I actually with a lot

of people that I could consult um also

available consultations on my website.

Mike has no tan coupon will apply if you

want me to battle

the description because I got more

shackles that way.

>> For people for people that have certain biomechanics,

biomechanics,

I frequently will have them start with

an isolation movement, right? Like for

chest, I'll have them do a pec deck

first for a couple sets to pre- fatigue

the pecs and then they'll do a chest

press movement as a secondary chest

movement. So now the triceps rather than

limiting their chest stimulus allow them

to get a better chest stimulus because

now they're helping rather than pull

them back. So yeah, a chest press uh

deadlifts there is no nothing really

replaces the deadlift. Just don't do it.

Just pick something better that actually

trains a target muscle rather than

everything. There is no everything

muscle. Bend over rows. Any chest

supported row. literally any chess support.

support.

>> I guess one other count I think I've

I've asked this before, but you know,

wouldn't the logical response to the

claim that if something if a movement

trains everything, it trains nothing be

well? No. Doesn't that just mean it

trains everything? If it trains

everything, it trains everything.

>> But it can't but it can't in involving

so many muscles, there is no guarantee

of what which one or any multiple of

those muscles will actually get a

stimulus. That's my point is that

>> Good. Good.

>> We are talking about we have to take a

target muscle to a given level of

proximity to failure to get the

recruitment mechanical work effective

reps blah blah blah blah blah. We don't

know in in an exercise involving that

many muscle groups when you hit two reps

in reserve. We don't know what muscle

was at two. We don't know what any of

the other muscles were at. Maybe they

were at a place that got a stimulus.

Maybe they weren't. We don't know.

Whereas in relatively more stable

movements that are relatively more

isolation, right? Compound isolation is

a continuum. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And here's something that I find

interesting among the physique intelligencia.

intelligencia.

They will make this big deal about how

all the unstable exercises, all the dumb

bosu ball stuff and functional nonsense

and all that just kind of gone away but

was a big thing in the 2000s. Oh, those

exercises are bad for hypertrophy

because the instability

limits the stimulus to the target muscle.

muscle.

Okay, why does that not hold to a degree

for squats? But what they do is they go,

okay, here's the continuum. Leg

extensions, leg press, hack squat,

pendum squat, back squat, split squat or

lunge, one-legged squat on the Bosu

ball. Here's the continuum, right? And

they go, "Well, this is dumb." They draw

their line exactly on the side of what

they like. They go, "Well, squats are

stableish enough." And yes, they are

more stable. I'm not saying they're not,

but they're still less stable than a

pendulum squat. They're less stable than

a hack squat.

Where is the line? The line is whatever

makes them right.

And I'm just saying that you need to

consider the continuum

that in many cases except in the

statement of hypertrophy.

Probably the best argument I ever saw

this was on my website years ago. I

wrote a piece called leg pressing for

big legs. And I made basically this

argument. For the majority of people, a

leg press took the low back upper back

stability would be a better exercise for

quad growth than the back squat.

some true rocket surgeon

brain scientist put in the comments,

"It's clear Lion McDonald knows nothing

about training because the lack of

stabilizer involvement in the leg press

means there will be a lower growth

hormone response." And folks, you cannot

make that up because clearly involving

the hip external rotators, the glutius

minimus, the opterator extern is crucial

to the overall growth response of

squats. Seriously, dumb as dumb as

sheep. Okay,

>> I put that continuum argument to you

last time we talked about exercise

selection in our

>> highintensity training podcast and you like

>> press the overhead press. Honestly,

properly done lateral raise, properly

done upright row, your medial delts will

explode. I guarantee it because I've had

people do this for a decade. who have

finally abandoned the overhead press,

done a lateral raise and or upright row

or both in the way that I teach them and

their medial delts exploded. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> The only regrets if anything is a front

delt exercise because the those medial

delts are on the back of the shoulder

when you do that movement anyway. It's

got all this technical stuffing around

the face, serrus anterior fails. Yeah,

there's some guys that are always built

really well for that movement. that get

a lot out of the overhead press, but

they're always built a certain way.

Somebody with long arms who's having to

just get they're never going to get more

than 40 kilos on the bar. They go to a

lateral raise and take that exercise to

two. I know what got trained. They do a

proper upright row. I know what got

trained. Which leads me to my got in an

argument with someone years ago. They

were like, this is back when upright

rows were the horror exercise. No one

should ever do upright rows.

>> Jeff Cavalier. Yeah, this is long before

him. This is back in NFW days.

>> He at least spread it to probably more

>> than around since long before that. I

used to think that too till I got

better. And yes, because internally rotated

rotated

uh for God's sakes, this position can

cause an impingement. No doubt. That's

been around for decades. And if you do

an upright row right row that way, yes,

you you can get an impingement and

that's fine. And they were like, 'Well,

here's why the upright row is dangerous.

I said, 'Okay, hit me.' They go, 'Well,

most people do it wrong. I go, that's

non-discriminatory for the upright row.

People do every exercise wrong. I've

seen people screw up wrist curls, right?

Saying people do it wrong is not an argument,

argument,

right? And there were a couple others. I

said, "Okay, so let me get this

straight. You're telling me that you

think the upright row is a problematic

movement, but you recommend squat,

bench, and deadlift to everyone because

those movements are never done

incorrectly in the weight room and have

no risk of Are you kidding me? Are you I

had someone in my group do that

recently. They tried to make the

argument that because of that slight

internal rotation, there was a slight

risk of impingement and then they were

like something came up and they were

like, "Oh yeah, rugy's a great sport."

I'm like, "So, let me get this straight.

loud is rugby is fine.

>> Cool. Cool story, bro. Let's just draw

this the dumbest line in the sand I've ever

ever

>> I guess uh just to steal man that

argument, you could say there may be

nothing inherently wrong with a properly

executed squat, bench, or deadlift.

Whereas there is something inherently wrong

wrong

>> mechanically with the up. Well, yeah,

but uh that that would be this because

of the impingement risk because of the

internal rotation. There's not if you do

it properly. That's my point. Do it

properly, there is no impingement risk.

>> There's also Do you want to like stand

up and demonstrate a properly executed

upright, Ro?

>> Yeah, but I got a peep first. I also

pointed out this guy in the rehab world,

>> It's called the empty can exercise. They

literally do a lateral raise in internal

rotation. Well, guess what? That's all

an upright row is. So, I just told the

guy to get that. I go, "You know what?

Clearly done in a controlled proper way.

This is fine.

>> It's a matter of when it's done

incorrectly." All right. The upright.

>> Let's go and get this out of the way. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> So, the way people used to do upright

rows way back in the day,

>> don't know. All right. Take a bar,

narrow grip,

and then you do that. >> Right.

>> Right.

>> Right. Elbows high all the way up far of

the chin. Now that is absolutely an

impingement waiting to happen.

Internally rotated in horizontal abduction.

abduction.

I don't disagree.

Well, that's not how I teach an upright rope.

There couple well there are few but

there are a few components to this and I

do the same thing with lateral raises

which I'll demonstrate next. Number

one, right? So you're not pulling this

way. Number one, your upper arm, the

humorris, your other funny bone

should stay in what's called this the

midscapular plane, right? It shouldn't

it's not directly the side. It's not

it's not

>> not here.

>> This is the midscap plane. Not

>> like a 40 Yeah. 30 degree angle.

>> Somewhere that right? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> So the other arms are moving to here.

Yeah. So, your hands are slightly out in

front of you. You're not like dragging

them out in front of your body. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And

>> And

>> you're not dragging against your body,

>> right? The reason for that is twofold.

One is that it keeps the medial delt on

actually on top of the shoulder. But if

you're doing here, the medial delts want

to go back, but also the rotator cuff

is better able to stabilize the shoulder

joint in the midscap plane.

But importantly,

you don't pull any higher than that

part of the sternum. Once your once your

upper arm is here, going higher is not

more del. It's just more impending.

>> Yeah. So where your humorous is

basically parallel with the floor.

>> Yeah. And I teach lateral raise exactly

the same, right? Most people do well

people do lateral raises all kinds of

terrible ways but the typical way is

what it's that medial delta is on the

back of the shoulder right now

whereas a and also you lean forward slightly

the medial delta is directly on top of

my shoulder

>> pole is exactly with the weight same

thing here lean forward at like 15

degrees that's a lateral raise midscap

plane medial delt

Now, if you look at this part of my arm,

right, upright row, sorry, lateral

raise, upright row, it's doing the same thing.

thing.

>> It's just a matter because you're

Now, with the upright row, the only

thing I'd add for anybody that wants to

try it this way, the big issue is that

with like a bar, the wrists get a little

bit kinkedked,

right? You can see that they're a little

bit twisted here. couple ways around

that. Um, one, you can use dumbbells

which let you, you know, spread your

hands apart. I suppose you could use a

wide I don't know. I've never done it

that way, but you could use like a wider

grip. Usually what works best is to use

a tricep rope on a low cable because it

lets you let your hands come apart when

that. >> Nice.

>> Nice.

>> The number of people I have known

>> a quasi lateral raise. I mean,

>> that's how to think of it in general.

>> It's just like I said, well, I mean,

look, most of his movements I put I

mentioned that in my group and someone

was like, you know, what is what does an

upright row do that a lateral raise,

isn't it? He's like, isn't just a

lateral raise with an arm bend? I go,

well, isn't a bench press just a pec

deck with an arm bend? Isn't a cable

shrug back with an arm bend?

>> I mean, it is like, okay, for anybody

listening to this, let me go ahead and

teach you how to bench with your pecs. I

can do it in 10 seconds.

Anybody watching this, I want you to go

to to go through this with me. All

right. What do the pecs do? The pecs are

here. Predominantly, they aduck the humorus.

humorus. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. They pull the they pull the upper

arm across the body. Right. Peck table crossover.

crossover.

Now watch the upper part of my arm. Pe deck

deck

bench press. It's doing the same thing.

The difference being that my elbow is bending.

bending.

So what happens is a lot of people

because they bench like I don't feel my

chest because they think of the bench

press as a push push

push >> triceps

for hypertrophy. Think of the bench

press or any chest press as a pull. You

are using the pecs to pull the upper arm

across the body.

That make sense? Pec deck, you're

pulling the upper arm across the body.

Chest press, pulling your arm will

straighten. I promise you, if you are

doing a barbell bench press or a

dumbbell bench press or a machine cast

chest press, if you think about pulling

your upper arm across the body, your

elbows will straighten and you will

actually use your palms. Solomon, I can

teach it to you. Roll your camera down a

little bit so people can see what you're

doing. Okay,

>> hang on. How about now? Yep. Take one

hand, put it on the opposite pec. Okay.

Raise your arm to the side. Now do a pe

do like a cable crossover pec deck

movement. Right. And you should feel

your pec kind of expand into your into

your hand, right? You can feel it kind

of pump up, right? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Do that a few times.

Okay. Now, bend the elbow

and bench press. And think about pulling

the pecs. Pull the upper arm across.

That's how you bench with the pecs. And

I think that's why a lot of people find

that they're like, "Oh, yeah. I don't

feel flat bench in my chest, but I feel

dumbbells better." Because dumbbells,

the nature of it allows you to do what?

To bring them in at the top. A lot of

those stupid functional chest machines

do the same thing. They started putting

it on angled handles. So they started

wide and they kind of forced you to

think about pushing

in instead of straight away. But I just

teach it with technique. You do that on

a chest press, you'll get way more out

of your ps than you ever did. Cool.

>> So So yeah. So like I said, the number

of people I know who toiled with the

overhead press for nothing as soon as

they switched

to uh they're not even even done

properly. Some people's shoulders do not

like lateral raises and that's fine.

Just do or sorry that do not like

upright rows for whatever reason. Some

people just don't have the the scapular

control the rotator cuff control and

that's fine. Properly done lateral raise

I guarantee you

with your slight forward lean upper arm

and the midscap plane. If you go look I

guarantee you Jeff Nippford has a video

where he demonstrates exactly what I

just showed. The difference being that

I've been teaching it that way for 20 years.

years. >> Cool.

>> Cool.

>> So that's what I would pick instead of

the big five.

>> Any lower body movement that takes the

low back, the upper back, and the knee.

Like look, even a Smith machine squat

>> where you can set your biomechanics,

right? Because if you have a long, if

you have long femurss, the problem is

that to maintain the bar over your

center of gravity, you have to be very

bent over. Now, you can do it because

you've got, you know, a wedge and you

can get yourself to a or upright

position. Not everyone has that on a

Smith machine because you don't have you

can you can start here and kind of

you're almost leaning back into the bar.

put your feet on your your heels on

plates or board or whatever. And you can

actually do because you're not going to

tip ass over teacettle like you you

can't do that with a barbell, right?

Like you can't you can't stand to that

position with a barbell because you tip

over. Even a Smith machine back squat

for people with bad levers, you'll get

more out of your quad because you can

set it up so that quads are going to be

what limits you to two reps in reserve

or hack squat or pendulum squat or quad

dominant leg press, which if it has a

problem, it's usually the range of

motion is very limited. You don't get as

much knee flexion or leg extensions. And

so that's that's lower body. Um, the

chest press, we already talked about

rows. Any chest supported row just to

take the low back out of it

will be a better choice. Whether it's a

hammer machine, a T- bar row, cable rows

are fine. They tend to they can be low

back limiting. Um, I would generally

prefer a chest supportive row if it's

available, but cable row. But again,

it's because you're also and you're not

standing up and you've got and like I

said, we already talked about shoulders.

So, like anybody listening to this, just

try it. try for the next six weeks,

report back. I love being told that I'm

right. So, there you go. That's the big

five. Like I said, I I generally, if I

was gonna try like train someone for

bodybuilding explicitly and we had

access to the equipment, I don't think

at this point in my career, I wouldn't

even teach them to do barbell movements.

I'd just start them on machines.

>> Yeah. And not even I mean why what what

I mean younger me probably wouldn't have

taken that like at this point in my

career like why what

>> I guess a lot of people actually just

like him keeps them coming back to the gym

gym

>> and that's right and that's fine and

look I'll pander as much as anyone else

if I have to and like also again this

goes to like the fact that I don't hate

the squat I don't it's people aren't

built for it a lot of people I cons

consult with they're like look I still

enjoy back squatting for whatever reason

or even deadlifting and that's great. I

tell them to keep it in as a movement

rather than as a lift if that makes any

sense. though

simply because if they don't have good

levers for it and also trust me folks as

you get older and I am old trust me

it will wear you out

as a official member of the old fart

club in my gym the grand majority of

guys they always want to talk about the

good old days which I don't care about I

don't care how much they benched in high

school I don't I just want to train and

leave every single one of them almost

without fail like yeah when I quit

trying to back squat heavy that's when I

got my back because I don't hurt all the

time. There is a with with with

>> with doage comes not only decrepitude

but sometimes wisdom or at least you

learn not you or at least you learn not

to do so much stupid crap. But with

people that I've consulted with that

want to maintain those movements, but

usually they have hypertrophy or

whatever as a goal, I'm like, look,

fine. Use that as a movement. Meaning,

do a couple warm-ups. Do two sets of

five to the first bar speed slowing.

Maybe that's an ARM.

Stop. That's it. I would also ask,

again, this is for folks as they get,

how big of a squat do you effing need?

Right? If you're 40 and you're not a

competitive powerlter and you think you

need to have a 200 kilo squat, I would

ask you for what,

assuming you can do it. How strong do

you need to be as a non-competitive lifter

lifter

in a movement that can absolutely wreck

the rest of your life as something?

Because trust me,

>> I mean, even in a competitive lifter,

you can ask the same question at your

sort of age. Why?

>> Well, I mean, fine, look, some people

are are still highly competitive at that

age. And that's fine. But if you're just

like Genpop Wreck lifter, how big of a

squat do you need for your daily functional activities? Like even before

functional activities? Like even before my before my hip crapped out and I was

my before my hip crapped out and I was still squatting, I'm like whatever. I

still squatting, I'm like whatever. I was doing I don't know 185 for two sets

was doing I don't know 185 for two sets of eight like I'm pretty broke between

of eight like I'm pretty broke between the broken the leg I broke a bunch of

the broken the leg I broke a bunch of years ago. My ankle doesn't move the way

years ago. My ankle doesn't move the way it used to and now I've got arthritis in

it used to and now I've got arthritis in my hip. I don't bend that way anymore. I

my hip. I don't bend that way anymore. I basically train to stay in mostly one

basically train to stay in mostly one piece. But even when I was, I'm like, h

piece. But even when I was, I'm like, h how like, yeah, there's that part of me

how like, yeah, there's that part of me because I'm a dumb dude. It's like,

because I'm a dumb dude. It's like, dude, you used to squat so much more

dude, you used to squat so much more than this. Just add five pounds. Just

than this. Just add five pounds. Just just get back to 225. And I would add

just get back to 225. And I would add weight and everything would hurt again.

weight and everything would hurt again. I'm like, yeah, don't.

I'm like, yeah, don't. >> By the way, when I asked why earlier, I

>> By the way, when I asked why earlier, I didn't mean that condescendingly. I just

didn't mean that condescendingly. I just meant it is a question we should

meant it is a question we should be asking. But it is a question.

be asking. But it is a question. >> Why do we want to lift these really

>> Why do we want to lift these really really heavy weights,

really heavy weights, >> right? Unless you are competing in

>> right? Unless you are competing in something like you genuinely need to ask

something like you genuinely need to ask >> and even then I think it's a good

>> and even then I think it's a good question to ask.

question to ask. >> Well, but I mean look, if you're a

>> Well, but I mean look, if you're a competitive powerlter, sure, you got to

competitive powerlter, sure, you got to keep doing it. And guess what? Most of

keep doing it. And guess what? Most of those guys are busted when they get

those guys are busted when they get older. I trust me, especially squats

older. I trust me, especially squats more so than anything. I I've been I

more so than anything. I I've been I took Sumi to a master's knee early in

took Sumi to a master's knee early in her career and man the old man knees it

her career and man the old man knees it takes takes you an hour to just be able

takes takes you an hour to just be able to hit that to warm that stuff up when

to hit that to warm that stuff up when your knees start to a lot of those guys

your knees start to a lot of those guys go to push pull but yeah it's just like

go to push pull but yeah it's just like even like I said competition is

even like I said competition is different it's not meant to be healthy

different it's not meant to be healthy but if you're like looking at longevity

but if you're like looking at longevity trust me eventually it will catch up

trust me eventually it will catch up with unless you're just built perfectly

with unless you're just built perfectly for it and I get really lucky um and

for it and I get really lucky um and which can probably lead into you've got

which can probably lead into you've got a we've got a question you want to But

a we've got a question you want to But you're like, "How to avoid injury in,

you're like, "How to avoid injury in, you know, in the in the weight room."

you know, in the in the weight room." But sort of to sum all this up, it's

But sort of to sum all this up, it's like, yeah, he really must squat. If

like, yeah, he really must squat. If you're just like, I

you're just like, I don't feel right if I don't back. And

don't feel right if I don't back. And again, I get it. I do. If I weren't

again, I get it. I do. If I weren't injured, I would probably do back

injured, I would probably do back squats. But I was built for them. And I

squats. But I was built for them. And I I did I was

I did I was >> You enjoy them, too.

>> You enjoy them, too. >> I did enjoy them. I did. And trust me, I

>> I did enjoy them. I did. And trust me, I did. And listen, I mean, I've done 20

did. And listen, I mean, I've done 20 rep squats. I've done sets of 50 in the

rep squats. I've done sets of 50 in the back squat. I trust me, if it can be

back squat. I trust me, if it can be done, I've done it. But I was good as

done, I've done it. But I was good as built for it.

built for it. >> Gross.

>> Gross. >> Um yeah, that was a that was a gross

>> Um yeah, that was a that was a gross workout. I wouldn't recommend that. Um

workout. I wouldn't recommend that. Um but yeah, I've done it. So, um

but yeah, I've done it. So, um >> but I would just do it as a lift. I

>> but I would just do it as a lift. I would do it work up a couple moderate

would do it work up a couple moderate sets, keep my brain happy, keep my

sets, keep my brain happy, keep my macho, you know, and then I would go do

macho, you know, and then I would go do the real work on machines

the real work on machines where I can actually just train the

where I can actually just train the target muscle and not have to worry

target muscle and not have to worry about any of any of the stuff that goes

about any of any of the stuff that goes along with that.

along with that. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Um because again, it's like so there was

>> Um because again, it's like so there was a there was a I mean, I've been saying

a there was a I mean, I've been saying this for years and of course I was like,

this for years and of course I was like, "Oh, you're stupid. You suck. Lol." And

"Oh, you're stupid. You suck. Lol." And I'm like, but there was like three or

I'm like, but there was like three or four years ago, I think the winner of

four years ago, I think the winner of the world's strongest man came out and

the world's strongest man came out and said the average person has no business

said the average person has no business deadlifting because the risk to reward

deadlifting because the risk to reward >> that was

>> that was ost.

ost. >> Yeah, I'm Joe Rogan.

>> Yeah, I'm Joe Rogan. >> Right. It's easy for me for my dumbass

>> Right. It's easy for me for my dumbass to come out and say it, but this guy's a

to come out and say it, but this guy's a strong and he's like, "Yes, the average

strong and he's like, "Yes, the average person has no business doing a

person has no business doing a conventional double because the

conventional double because the riskto-reward is so poor or so high. The

riskto-reward is so poor or so high. The benefits now trap bar deadlift, that's a

benefits now trap bar deadlift, that's a very different animal, right? That's a

very different animal, right? That's a completely different thing. That is a

completely different thing. That is a desperately underrated movement that

desperately underrated movement that >> I I don't know if I would agree. I think

>> I I don't know if I would agree. I think arguing it's a net cost is a step too

arguing it's a net cost is a step too far. Like if you take an average

far. Like if you take an average sedentary person and teach them how to

sedentary person and teach them how to deadlift properly, you know, with

deadlift properly, you know, with instructions

instructions so that they're not rounding at the low

so that they're not rounding at the low back, I think it would probably do more

back, I think it would probably do more good than harm just to strengthen their

good than harm just to strengthen their low back. Like if you got some person

low back. Like if you got some person with back pain, you know,

with back pain, you know, >> okay, two things. One, there are better

>> okay, two things. One, there are better ways to strengthen the low back. And

ways to strengthen the low back. And this is going to sound really

this is going to sound really condescending and it it kind of is, but

condescending and it it kind of is, but it's not meant to be. You say that as

it's not meant to be. You say that as someone who has never coached someone in

someone who has never coached someone in the weight room.

the weight room. >> That's not true. But

>> That's not true. But >> well, but if you but unless you're

>> well, but if you but unless you're coaching someone hands-on day after day

coaching someone hands-on day after day after day,

after day, >> they will f up the deadlift. They will f

>> they will f up the deadlift. They will f up the squat. They will.

up the squat. They will. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And you can go into any It's Look, and

>> And you can go into any It's Look, and this is where this is something where

this is where this is something where people really do forget. The way I coach

people really do forget. The way I coach someone in person is completely

someone in person is completely different than what I do if I'm writing

different than what I do if I'm writing a program up. I can do things if I'm

a program up. I can do things if I'm watching them every day. Whit forgets

watching them every day. Whit forgets this. It's one thing for him to be

this. It's one thing for him to be teaching these movements under the

teaching these movements under the watchful eye of an instructor every

watchful eye of an instructor every single day. You can get away with stuff.

single day. You can get away with stuff. If I have three sessions with someone,

If I have three sessions with someone, which is common when you're a general

which is common when you're a general personal trainer, you ain't teaching

personal trainer, you ain't teaching someone a proper deadlift in that amount

someone a proper deadlift in that amount of time that can be done safely. Period.

of time that can be done safely. Period. You can tell me I'm wrong, but I'm not

You can tell me I'm wrong, but I'm not because I've I've tried. It cannot be

because I've I've tried. It cannot be done.

done. >> And that's and that's the problem.

>> And that's and that's the problem. Even it you cannot get them to even

Even it you cannot get them to even basic technical competency

basic technical competency on that complicated of a movement and

on that complicated of a movement and have them be able to do it safely and

have them be able to do it safely and progressively ever. Whereas I can teach

progressively ever. Whereas I can teach someone something simpler in 10 minutes.

someone something simpler in 10 minutes. And there are better ways to strengthen

And there are better ways to strengthen the low back because I've seen that

the low back because I've seen that argument. Oh yeah, when I, you know, I

argument. Oh yeah, when I, you know, I had someone training me every day and

had someone training me every day and taught me a conventional deadlift. My

taught me a conventional deadlift. My low back feels better. Yeah, great.

low back feels better. Yeah, great. Because you had a hands-on trainer every

Because you had a hands-on trainer every day. That's not That's the problem. And

day. That's not That's the problem. And I did an entire video about this on my

I did an entire video about this on my channel. There's a different which I

channel. There's a different which I will never update again just so people

will never update again just so people realize and I talked about it was

realize and I talked about it was coached versus uncoached training

coached versus uncoached training because you can do totally different

because you can do totally different things.

things. >> Yeah, that was a good idea.

>> Yeah, that was a good idea. >> The stuff that I got away with Sunumi, I

>> The stuff that I got away with Sunumi, I could never do writing of a program for

could never do writing of a program for someone.

someone. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Because

>> Because >> I can't be there. I can't see it. I

>> I can't be there. I can't see it. I cannot give them the heristics that I

cannot give them the heristics that I would use on a day-to-day basis. So

would use on a day-to-day basis. So yeah, I would agree with you if you can

yeah, I would agree with you if you can try if you can coach them day every day

try if you can coach them day every day in the gym

in the gym >> or even just to the point where they can

>> or even just to the point where they can do it properly. So

do it properly. So >> right, but how many Right. But how many

>> right, but how many Right. But how many sessions is that going to take? The

sessions is that going to take? The average person isn't going to doesn't

average person isn't going to doesn't have it.

have it. >> I guess you know for the listeners of

>> I guess you know for the listeners of our podcast, there would be numerous

our podcast, there would be numerous folks willing to put in that kind of

folks willing to put in that kind of effort, but we tend to attract a more

effort, but we tend to attract a more serious audience.

serious audience. >> This is not Yeah. Look, I spent a decade

>> This is not Yeah. Look, I spent a decade studying every aspect because I wanted

studying every aspect because I wanted to know for my own lifting even before I

to know for my own lifting even before I got into this in any sort of

got into this in any sort of professional way because that was my

professional way because that was my obsession. We're talking about Genpop,

obsession. We're talking about Genpop, dude. Everyone likes to whine about

dude. Everyone likes to whine about Planet Fitness doesn't let people squat

Planet Fitness doesn't let people squat and deadlift. I'm like, have you ever

and deadlift. I'm like, have you ever watched the average person squat and

watched the average person squat and deadlift in a commercial gym? It's an

deadlift in a commercial gym? It's an absolute tragedy.

absolute tragedy. So yes, as a global statement, maybe

So yes, as a global statement, maybe he's not correct. But in the aggregate,

he's not correct. But in the aggregate, for the general population who can

for the general population who can barely focus on a machine bicep curl

barely focus on a machine bicep curl because they're too busy on their phone,

because they're too busy on their phone, they have no business deadlifting.

they have no business deadlifting. >> They have no business back squatting.

>> They have no business back squatting. They have no business doing any of those

They have no business doing any of those movements. Honestly, considering that

movements. Honestly, considering that they spend 90% of their training time on

they spend 90% of their training time on their phone, they should just go for a

their phone, they should just go for a nice walk because they're not

nice walk because they're not accomplishing anything in the weight

accomplishing anything in the weight room except annoying me by sitting on

room except annoying me by sitting on equipment that I want to use for 10

equipment that I want to use for 10 minutes while they look at their phone

minutes while they look at their phone during the set.

during the set. >> They do not. Sorry, general population.

>> They do not. Sorry, general population. >> You are spot on. I If I go into a

>> You are spot on. I If I go into a commercial gym, the average person

commercial gym, the average person performing a barbell movement has no

performing a barbell movement has no clue

clue >> and no business doing it.

>> and no business doing it. >> Yeah. Um, it was really it was really

>> Yeah. Um, it was really it was really funny. This is someone I coached many

funny. This is someone I coached many many years ago and their technique on

many years ago and their technique on everything

everything everything except the RDL was atrocious

everything except the RDL was atrocious because they were modeling they'd

because they were modeling they'd learned the RDL watching someone online

learned the RDL watching someone online doing it properly and they'd learned

doing it properly and they'd learned every other movement by watching people

every other movement by watching people at their gym do it. It's better now.

at their gym do it. It's better now. Back in the day, if I was in a

Back in the day, if I was in a commercial gym and saw someone

commercial gym and saw someone squatting, well,

squatting, well, it was such a rare occurrence. I would

it was such a rare occurrence. I would always go ask them. I go,

always go ask them. I go, >> "You used to Olympic 99 times out of

>> "You used to Olympic 99 times out of 100, they were Olympic lifters." You can

100, they were Olympic lifters." You can tell. I can tell an Olympic lifter

tell. I can tell an Olympic lifter like that.

like that. >> It's actually really funny. I've

>> It's actually really funny. I've squatted in commercial gyms in the past

squatted in commercial gyms in the past and been asked the same question.

and been asked the same question. >> You an Olympic lifter?

>> You an Olympic lifter? >> You're an exception. Right now it's a

>> You're an exception. Right now it's a little bit better because as as bad as

little bit better because as as bad as so as much as social media has made

so as much as social media has made things worse at least there is good

things worse at least there is good people I have noticed that people I'm

people I have noticed that people I'm seeing proportionally by which I mean

seeing proportionally by which I mean two out of every 10 instead of one out

two out of every 10 instead of one out of every 50 squat that might actually be

of every 50 squat that might actually be decent

decent maybe but it's still not the norm.

maybe but it's still not the norm. Usually you see the same crapastic half

Usually you see the same crapastic half squat, knees in, up on the toes BS that

squat, knees in, up on the toes BS that I've seen for 30 years. Most people have

I've seen for 30 years. Most people have no business doing these movements. And

no business doing these movements. And the deadlift is even potentially worse

the deadlift is even potentially worse because if you do something wrong on the

because if you do something wrong on the deadlift, which is very, very easy,

deadlift, which is very, very easy, things go bad. At least the bar doesn't

things go bad. At least the bar doesn't fall on you. But if you get a low back

fall on you. But if you get a low back injury, you're done.

injury, you're done. >> Yeah. Absolutely. And and that that

>> Yeah. Absolutely. And and that that holds even for trained lifters because

holds even for trained lifters because the temptation to add weight to the bar,

the temptation to add weight to the bar, even if you know how to perform the

even if you know how to perform the deadlift properly, can lead you to

deadlift properly, can lead you to perform it improperly by chasing PRs,

perform it improperly by chasing PRs, >> you know.

>> you know. >> Um, yes. Yes, absolutely. Um, which is

>> Um, yes. Yes, absolutely. Um, which is also potentially true, I suppose. But

also potentially true, I suppose. But again, something goes all right on a

again, something goes all right on a machine chest press. It doesn't go that.

machine chest press. It doesn't go that. >> Yeah. Nothing's happening. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Nothing's happening. Yeah. >> Right. Nothing.

>> Right. Nothing. >> Yeah, I think more than other lifts.

>> Yeah, I think more than other lifts. >> Yes,

>> Yes, >> there there's like a Goldilock zone with

>> there there's like a Goldilock zone with the deadlift and the squat

the deadlift and the squat >> where you know you need to be careful in

>> where you know you need to be careful in a way that you don't on other exercises.

a way that you don't on other exercises. >> Correct.

>> Correct. >> Especially careful chasing PRs. If you

>> Especially careful chasing PRs. If you just go completely gung-ho everything to

just go completely gung-ho everything to failure on a machine chest press,

failure on a machine chest press, >> nothing bad really happens.

>> nothing bad really happens. >> Yeah. Whereas on a squat or a deadlift,

>> Yeah. Whereas on a squat or a deadlift, that could,

that could, you know, destroy you potentially.

you know, destroy you potentially. >> Like I said, that could be a career end.

>> Like I said, that could be a career end. It absolutely can. And again, that's one

It absolutely can. And again, that's one of these things like again, while

of these things like again, while there's certain appro certain training

there's certain appro certain training approaches, it is one thing to be

approaches, it is one thing to be coached,

coached, >> right? Again,

>> right? Again, >> yeah,

>> yeah, >> I have no love for starting strength. I

>> I have no love for starting strength. I don't like the way they teach a lot of

don't like the way they teach a lot of things, but that chasing five pounds a

things, but that chasing five pounds a week, it's it's one thing when you're

week, it's it's one thing when you're being overseen and someone is telling

being overseen and someone is telling you when but when you read in a book,

you when but when you read in a book, yep, add five pounds a week every week,

yep, add five pounds a week every week, it always goes wrong. Especially when

it always goes wrong. Especially when they don't realize that, okay, fine. If

they don't realize that, okay, fine. If you're writing that for a high school

you're writing that for a high school dude, that's a very different P because

dude, that's a very different P because you see they're like, "Oh yeah, I was 45

you see they're like, "Oh yeah, I was 45 and I got into starting strength and I

and I got into starting strength and I thought I could add five pounds a week.

thought I could add five pounds a week. That's what it said." And like again,

That's what it said." And like again, you're a 45-year-old untrained woman and

you're a 45-year-old untrained woman and but people forget that what they're like

but people forget that what they're like I said, what I would write or recommend

I said, what I would write or recommend to someone in a consult be very

to someone in a consult be very different than if I'm coaching them

different than if I'm coaching them hands-on or coaching them occasionally

hands-on or coaching them occasionally because like I'm again I wrote it talked

because like I'm again I wrote it talked about that video and I'm like okay I

about that video and I'm like okay I coach Sunni six days a week. I was in

coach Sunni six days a week. I was in the gym with her every day.

the gym with her every day. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> I could make it I could make micro

>> I could make it I could make micro adjustments. I was seeing what was going

adjustments. I was seeing what was going on every day, every set, every rep.

on every day, every set, every rep. um when her daughter started

um when her daughter started powerlifting, she and I sort of dual

powerlifting, she and I sort of dual coaching. So Sumi would do the two

coaching. So Sumi would do the two during the week workouts and I would

during the week workouts and I would write those up based on the Saturday

write those up based on the Saturday workout which I would oversee

workout which I would oversee and during the week I had to keep it a

and during the week I had to keep it a little bit more conservative because

little bit more conservative because like I I I wasn't there. I couldn't see

like I I I wasn't there. I couldn't see how the bar was moving. On Saturday when

how the bar was moving. On Saturday when I was there I could do things very

I was there I could do things very differently, right? I'm like I can see

differently, right? I'm like I can see I'm like, "All right, today's a PR. I I

I'm like, "All right, today's a PR. I I can see it. I can feel it." and and and

can see it. I can feel it." and and and it would but on the other and then when

it would but on the other and then when I was coaching Michelle which was by

I was coaching Michelle which was by distance by video right I would get

distance by video right I would get videos from her every week and I could

videos from her every week and I could see and I could see all right I see your

see and I could see all right I see your bar speed and I could see you know and

bar speed and I could see you know and she didn't because of her age and her

she didn't because of her age and her you know she wasn't dealing with

you know she wasn't dealing with potential weekly fluctuations in

potential weekly fluctuations in strength you know high school things

strength you know high school things that Sumi's daughter like etc etc etc so

that Sumi's daughter like etc etc etc so like I can look at the video and go okay

like I can look at the video and go okay I can tell by the bar speed change but I

I can tell by the bar speed change but I would still have to write up like the

would still have to write up like the workout's much more cons and I couldn't

workout's much more cons and I couldn't adjust them, right? With Sumi, if we're

adjust them, right? With Sumi, if we're in the day, I'm like, "Ah, yeah, you

in the day, I'm like, "Ah, yeah, you look like, you know, you look like trash

look like, you know, you look like trash today." I would adjust the workout and

today." I would adjust the workout and I'm like,

I'm like, >> "You look strong. I don't care what my

>> "You look strong. I don't care what my progression is. I'm not going to waste

progression is. I'm not going to waste the day. If you're ready to hit a big

the day. If you're ready to hit a big number, we're taking it we, you know, we

number, we're taking it we, you know, we take it we can. But if I'm writing up a

take it we can. But if I'm writing up a and if I'm consulting someone, I can't

and if I'm consulting someone, I can't even do that. I have to give them my

even do that. I have to give them my best approximation of a rule set of when

best approximation of a rule set of when this happens and this you notice this on

this happens and this you notice this on this set of an exercise in terms of how

this set of an exercise in terms of how it's moving, that's when you go up and

it's moving, that's when you go up and it might be a week and it might be a

it might be a week and it might be a month and it won't happen till it

month and it won't happen till it happens. But a lot of times when people

happens. But a lot of times when people write up their training programs,

write up their training programs, they're just like, "Oh, you're going to

they're just like, "Oh, you're going to add 5% a week every week and then drop

add 5% a week every week and then drop back and do this." And it's like, "Yeah,

back and do this." And it's like, "Yeah, and it works until it doesn't." And it's

and it works until it doesn't." And it's the same thing with teaching technique.

the same thing with teaching technique. What I could, like I said, when I was a

What I could, like I said, when I was a personal trainer, commercial gym, I

personal trainer, commercial gym, I usually had three sessions with someone.

usually had three sessions with someone. I had to get someone from zero to

I had to get someone from zero to competent in three 30 minute sessions.

competent in three 30 minute sessions. Sorry, I'm not teaching a barbell bench

Sorry, I'm not teaching a barbell bench press. I'm teaching maybe a dumbbell

press. I'm teaching maybe a dumbbell bench press or a machine chest press,

bench press or a machine chest press, but I'm not teaching anything more

but I'm not teaching anything more complex than that. Especially gym pop

complex than that. Especially gym pop that is not going to have the focus,

that is not going to have the focus, interest, or attention to do them.

interest, or attention to do them. Even if I could even if I could have

Even if I could even if I could have gotten them to full competency in three

gotten them to full competency in three sessions,

sessions, that wasn't and again, yes, it's goal

that wasn't and again, yes, it's goal specific. It depends on the person. I

specific. It depends on the person. I get that. But what he was saying was

get that. But what he was saying was that for the average trainee looking for

that for the average trainee looking for general muscularkeeletal strength and

general muscularkeeletal strength and fitness, the deadlift is not a good

fitness, the deadlift is not a good choice because a trap bar is a much

choice because a trap bar is a much better movement. Even if Rick thinks

better movement. Even if Rick thinks it's a shitty exercise, but

it's a shitty exercise, but >> we're not getting into that. That's a

>> we're not getting into that. That's a whole

whole >> sagittal pl the sagittal plane.

>> sagittal pl the sagittal plane. >> That's just barbell myop that's just

>> That's just barbell myop that's just barbell myopia.

barbell myopia. >> That was

>> That was >> whatever. But so any So anyway, so I

>> whatever. But so any So anyway, so I think that sort of summarizes my

think that sort of summarizes my thoughts about the big

thoughts about the big >> Yeah. I guess um just one final thing I

>> Yeah. I guess um just one final thing I wanted to ask about kind of central to

wanted to ask about kind of central to your critique of some of these big

your critique of some of these big barbell exercises was that for any

barbell exercises was that for any exercise to be like stimulative

exercise to be like stimulative stimulative of growth in a muscle, it

stimulative of growth in a muscle, it has to reach a certain proximity to

has to reach a certain proximity to failure.

failure. >> The muscle has to reach a certain

>> The muscle has to reach a certain proximity of failure.

proximity of failure. >> Yeah, the muscle has to reach a certain

>> Yeah, the muscle has to reach a certain which I don't disagree with. I don't

which I don't disagree with. I don't disagree with that at all.

disagree with that at all. >> Yeah, sorry. That's what I meant to say.

>> Yeah, sorry. That's what I meant to say. Thanks for clarifying.

Thanks for clarifying. >> Do you think that argument kind of

>> Do you think that argument kind of weakens the case that

weakens the case that you know the prevailing notion in the

you know the prevailing notion in the fitness industry that we should count or

fitness industry that we should count or this actually I think came from you that

this actually I think came from you that we should count

we should count >> I know where this I know where this is

>> I know where this I know where this is going.

going. >> You know where it's going like okay that

>> You know where it's going like okay that we should count a set of like rows or

we should count a set of like rows or pull-ups as half a set for the biceps.

pull-ups as half a set for the biceps. >> Yeah. Okay. Yes. I I remember you you

>> Yeah. Okay. Yes. I I remember you you emailed me about this a while back and

emailed me about this a while back and I'm like, damn it, I need to interview

I'm like, damn it, I need to interview with somebody who doesn't think as

with somebody who doesn't think as critically as you, but I got to answer.

critically as you, but I got to answer. I've been thinking about it.

I've been thinking about it. >> Cool.

>> Cool. >> Here's the difference.

>> Here's the difference. It is highly likely for a smaller muscle

It is highly likely for a smaller muscle to fail before a bigger muscle. If you

to fail before a bigger muscle. If you do a set of bench press, let's say you

do a set of bench press, let's say you do a set of chest press to two reps in

do a set of chest press to two reps in reserve,

reserve, odds are it's still triceps that are

odds are it's still triceps that are failing,

failing, right? You're still usually get stuck.

right? You're still usually get stuck. It's the lockout. You don't I mean you

It's the lockout. You don't I mean you might fail off the chest. A smaller

might fail off the chest. A smaller muscle will always be closer in

muscle will always be closer in proximity to failure than a bigger

proximity to failure than a bigger muscle, but that may not hold in the

muscle, but that may not hold in the reverse section. If you take a chest

reverse section. If you take a chest press to two reps reserve, triceps

press to two reps reserve, triceps should be at two reps in reserve or

should be at two reps in reserve or closer to failure. It won't necessarily

closer to failure. It won't necessarily work in the opposite direction. If your

work in the opposite direction. If your triceps fail long before your chest,

triceps fail long before your chest, you've gotten an effective set for

you've gotten an effective set for triceps and may not have gotten an

triceps and may not have gotten an effective set for

effective set for the chest. That's why. And that's my

the chest. That's why. And that's my story and I'm sticking with it because

story and I'm sticking with it because that's the best. But no, I just I can't

that's the best. But no, I just I can't I can't see a case. Well, somebody will

I can't see a case. Well, somebody will come at me be like, "Nope, I've got 22

come at me be like, "Nope, I've got 22 inch biceps and no bid back and my

inch biceps and no bid back and my biceps all like there will be there's

biceps all like there will be there's always one dude in the comments who's

always one dude in the comments who's like, "Nope, I'm an exception. Ergo,

like, "Nope, I'm an exception. Ergo, you're wrong." Wrong. Okay, look that

you're wrong." Wrong. Okay, look that without fail. Every article I've ever

without fail. Every article I've ever written for 30 years, there's always one

written for 30 years, there's always one guy. Well, this isn't me. Therefore, it

guy. Well, this isn't me. Therefore, it cannot be true.

cannot be true. >> You know what the word generality means,

>> You know what the word generality means, right? You know what the word on average

right? You know what the word on average means? For God's sake, stop. There will

means? For God's sake, stop. There will always be some weird ass exception to

always be some weird ass exception to this. someone with

this. someone with >> truly bizarre

>> truly bizarre >> strength balance for some weird ass

>> strength balance for some weird ass reason

reason >> that could possibly have a situation

>> that could possibly have a situation that during a row that their biceps

that during a row that their biceps would hit that well that their back

would hit that well that their back would somehow hit

would somehow hit zero reps in reserve but their biceps

zero reps in reserve but their biceps would still be so much stronger that

would still be so much stronger that they would not but I can't imagine it. I

they would not but I can't imagine it. I cannot imagine that situation.

cannot imagine that situation. where that would ever occur. Right. And

where that would ever occur. Right. And you can sort of prove this to yourself,

you can sort of prove this to yourself, right? So you know what a shrugback is.

right? So you know what a shrugback is. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Okay. So shrugback is just a row without

>> Okay. So shrugback is just a row without the armhole, right?

the armhole, right? >> Yep.

>> Yep. >> Shrug back row. That's it.

>> Shrug back row. That's it. >> Pretty much anybody if you take a set of

>> Pretty much anybody if you take a set of rows to say to to zero reserve, it will

rows to say to to zero reserve, it will almost always be biceps that fail. you

almost always be biceps that fail. you will fail in the middle,

will fail in the middle, but odds are you'll be able to do one or

but odds are you'll be able to do one or two more reps or now start with

two more reps or now start with shrugbacks.

shrugbacks. Do a set of shrug back and then go

Do a set of shrug back and then go immediately into rows. You'll be able to

immediately into rows. You'll be able to keep going,

keep going, >> right? So, I just don't see anytime a

>> right? So, I just don't see anytime a large muscle during a compound exercise

large muscle during a compound exercise gets two reps in reserve, a smaller

gets two reps in reserve, a smaller muscle will always be at that or closer,

muscle will always be at that or closer, whereas I don't think it'll work in the

whereas I don't think it'll work in the opposite direction. If you're squatting

opposite direction. If you're squatting and your low back gives out, your quads

and your low back gives out, your quads may be nowhere close. But then again, I

may be nowhere close. But then again, I don't count low back volume out of

don't count low back volume out of squats, now do I? Usually, most of the

squats, now do I? Usually, most of the volume overlap comes in upper body. The

volume overlap comes in upper body. The way I program stuff, there's not you

way I program stuff, there's not you don't see nearly as much overlap in

don't see nearly as much overlap in lower body, right? When you're

lower body, right? When you're squatting, yeah, you get some glutes

squatting, yeah, you get some glutes depending on how deep you go, depending

depending on how deep you go, depending on what you're doing. Hamstrings, not so

on what you're doing. Hamstrings, not so much. If you look at my workouts, quad

much. If you look at my workouts, quad to hamstring volumes are pretty equal.

to hamstring volumes are pretty equal. But if you look at the upper body

But if you look at the upper body workouts, they almost always have a

workouts, they almost always have a reduced bicep tricep volume.

reduced bicep tricep volume. >> But that depends on if you're doing

>> But that depends on if you're doing compound pushing and pulling.

compound pushing and pulling. >> Then you raise the isolation work.

>> Then you raise the isolation work. >> Sure. Which is all going back to my my

>> Sure. Which is all going back to my my argument that you could do pure

argument that you could do pure isolations and get that would be the

isolations and get that would be the issue, right? Let's say you if you did

issue, right? Let's say you if you did eight sets of compound chests, I would

eight sets of compound chests, I would count that as four sets of triceps,

count that as four sets of triceps, >> fractional sets is the one big meta the

>> fractional sets is the one big meta the meta analysis by those two two guys. I

meta analysis by those two two guys. I just I just want to say smuggly, you go

just I just want to say smuggly, you go back and look at my volume articles from

back and look at my volume articles from back in the day and I was like we should

back in the day and I was like we should count the smaller muscle groups as one

count the smaller muscle groups as one half because that's rational. when they

half because that's rational. when they wrote their big papers, they're like,

wrote their big papers, they're like, "Yeah, we thought we should look at it

"Yeah, we thought we should look at it in terms of fractional sets and we

in terms of fractional sets and we assumed that compound exercise should be

assumed that compound exercise should be counted as one half on a smaller muscle

counted as one half on a smaller muscle group." I'm like, "Huh, wow, that sounds

group." I'm like, "Huh, wow, that sounds really familiar."

really familiar." >> Gee, what an idea

>> Gee, what an idea >> indeed. So, even they sort of like it

>> indeed. So, even they sort of like it but it only works I think in the one it

but it only works I think in the one it only works from larger to smaller not in

only works from larger to smaller not in not in the lower section. So, yeah. So,

not in the lower section. So, yeah. So, like let's say if you did eight sets of

like let's say if you did eight sets of compound pushing, I would only program

compound pushing, I would only program like three or four sets of triceps to

like three or four sets of triceps to get the same eight total. You get four

get the same eight total. You get four fractional sets and then four more four

fractional sets and then four more four more direct sets.

more direct sets. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Whereas, let's say you did eight sets of

>> Whereas, let's say you did eight sets of pec deck,

pec deck, >> you got to do eight sets of triceps.

>> you got to do eight sets of triceps. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And I like how earlier you flagged that

And I like how earlier you flagged that compound isolation is a spectrum.

compound isolation is a spectrum. >> Sure. You know, cuz like a really wide

>> Sure. You know, cuz like a really wide grip bench, for instance, might have

grip bench, for instance, might have your pecs failing long before your

your pecs failing long before your triceps do.

triceps do. >> Oh, absolutely.

>> Oh, absolutely. >> Medium grip might have your triceps and

>> Medium grip might have your triceps and pecs failing about evenly. Then a close

pecs failing about evenly. Then a close grip, your triceps fail first, you know,

grip, your triceps fail first, you know, >> and make Yeah. Make no make no mistake

>> and make Yeah. Make no make no mistake like when I threw at that one half,

like when I threw at that one half, >> that's I mean, a I made it very clear.

>> that's I mean, a I made it very clear. I'm like, look, I'm not saying it's

I'm like, look, I'm not saying it's exactly one half, but we know it's not

exactly one half, but we know it's not one. We know it's not zero. We know it's

one. We know it's not zero. We know it's not one to one,

not one to one, >> right? So, let's just I'm going I gotta

>> right? So, let's just I'm going I gotta pick some because I know people I'm sure

pick some because I know people I'm sure like I have paragraphs and I'm like

like I have paragraphs and I'm like >> let's not be pedantic nitpickers, right?

>> let's not be pedantic nitpickers, right? It's probably not 0.9. It's probably not

It's probably not 0.9. It's probably not 0.1. Maybe it's 6. Maybe maybe it

0.1. Maybe it's 6. Maybe maybe it depends on the exercise, right? Like for

depends on the exercise, right? Like for a cable row, an undergrip cable row is

a cable row, an undergrip cable row is way more biceps than a V-grip cable row,

way more biceps than a V-grip cable row, which is really more brachiialis if you

which is really more brachiialis if you want to get really anal retentive about

want to get really anal retentive about it, right? Like we could get but when I

it, right? Like we could get but when I was writing that article series, like

was writing that article series, like I'm not trying to write a tone on how I

I'm not trying to write a tone on how I might apply this in the real world. I'm

might apply this in the real world. I'm just saying that when we are looking at

just saying that when we are looking at these volume studies, you can't do

these volume studies, you can't do compound chest and then measure triceps

compound chest and then measure triceps and go that's the optimal volume for

and go that's the optimal volume for triceps. that that doesn't make any

triceps. that that doesn't make any sense. And again, the big meadows that

sense. And again, the big meadows that came later were just agreed completely

came later were just agreed completely with what I said, even if Brad's done

with what I said, even if Brad's done set counting paper didn't um because he

set counting paper didn't um because he was trying to to say I was wrong. Um but

was trying to to say I was wrong. Um but yeah, so yes, it and I think I think

yeah, so yes, it and I think I think good coaches do this in practice. Again,

good coaches do this in practice. Again, this is one of those things that when

this is one of those things that when I'm writing, as I was in those articles,

I'm writing, as I was in those articles, or if I was going to write something or

or if I was going to write something or like when I write up that workout, I

like when I write up that workout, I can't sit there and write, well, I would

can't sit there and write, well, I would do this if this and this if this, and if

do this if this and this if this, and if I used a Vbar, then I would have to

I used a Vbar, then I would have to worry more about biceps fem biceps

worry more about biceps fem biceps breaky short head because blah blah blah

breaky short head because blah blah blah blah blah. I'm just like, we're not

blah blah. I'm just like, we're not getting into that. I might do that in a

getting into that. I might do that in a coaching context. I'll do that in

coaching context. I'll do that in consultation because I have can take

consultation because I have can take into account that when I'm writing it,

into account that when I'm writing it, we got to go with slightly simpler

we got to go with slightly simpler heruristics, right? And I would just say

heruristics, right? And I would just say that yeah, if you've done this type,

that yeah, if you've done this type, okay, fine, you need four direct sets

okay, fine, you need four direct sets for biceps. Do two of of a barbell curl

for biceps. Do two of of a barbell curl and two hammer curls to get your

and two hammer curls to get your brachiialis if you really care. like

brachiialis if you really care. like there is overlap and in a coaching

there is overlap and in a coaching context

context you're going to be able to take and I'm

you're going to be able to take and I'm sure good coaches that when they look at

sure good coaches that when they look at those things are absolutely taking that

those things are absolutely taking that into context right so if I had someone

into context right so if I had someone doing a row here the biceps are not

doing a row here the biceps are not super involved and the lats are not

super involved and the lats are not super involved right it it's we've taken

super involved right it it's we've taken the lats out of the movement by removing

the lats out of the movement by removing shoulder extension there is not you're

shoulder extension there is not you're getting some elbow flexion but you're

getting some elbow flexion but you're not getting full elbow flexction Right?

not getting full elbow flexction Right? Like an undergrip, like an undergrip

Like an undergrip, like an undergrip pull down, you're going full excursion

pull down, you're going full excursion of the biceps. A medium grip, is there

of the biceps. A medium grip, is there some arm flexion? Yeah, but not nearly

some arm flexion? Yeah, but not nearly as much. So,

as much. So, for example, if I was training someone

for example, if I was training someone and I had them doing mostly either an

and I had them doing mostly either an undergrip or a V-bar pull down, I would

undergrip or a V-bar pull down, I would probably give them less direct bicep

probably give them less direct bicep work. If I had them doing a medium

work. If I had them doing a medium overhand grip, I would probably give

overhand grip, I would probably give them a little bit more based on just an

them a little bit more based on just an internal heristic experience. This is

internal heristic experience. This is not as much bicep involvement or as much

not as much bicep involvement or as much training as this is or this is or this

training as this is or this is or this is. Same reason that if I use a close

is. Same reason that if I use a close grip row like a V-bar row or undergrip

grip row like a V-bar row or undergrip row that involves a lot of lats and

row that involves a lot of lats and actually going back to the if you had to

actually going back to the if you had to pick one exercise I had to pick one back

pick one exercise I had to pick one back exercise

exercise it would be either an undergrip or a

it would be either an undergrip or a V-bar row you will get biceps lats in

V-bar row you will get biceps lats in shoulder extension and scapular

shoulder extension and scapular retraction that one exercise will do it

retraction that one exercise will do it all.

all. If you want to take lats out, for

If you want to take lats out, for example, as I'm programming for someone

example, as I'm programming for someone that has over that has dominant lats and

that has over that has dominant lats and needs to bring up their midback,

needs to bring up their midback, >> is that even possible?

>> is that even possible? >> All sure, you get the elbow

>> All sure, you get the elbow >> shaped like a Dorito. What's the story?

>> shaped like a Dorito. What's the story? >> They got a giant lat, but their midback,

>> They got a giant lat, but their midback, their midback development is just not as

their midback development is just not as good.

good. >> Got it. So, I need to pick an exercise

>> Got it. So, I need to pick an exercise specifically that trains the midback

specifically that trains the midback without the lats because otherwise the

without the lats because otherwise the lats are going to take over that

lats are going to take over that movement

movement >> because the body will always find the

>> because the body will always find the most efficient way. So, every one of

most efficient way. So, every one of their rows is going to be elbow squared

their rows is going to be elbow squared or even a reverse peck with scapular

or even a reverse peck with scapular retraction.

retraction. >> Now, I'm deliberately taking the lats

>> Now, I'm deliberately taking the lats out.

out. >> So, that would affect that would affect

>> So, that would affect that would affect back volume. Most people I know back is

back volume. Most people I know back is complicated and they're like well

complicated and they're like well there's midback and there's lats and

there's midback and there's lats and there's traps one which is really kind

there's traps one which is really kind of separate and there's low back which I

of separate and there's low back which I consider core. When I think of back I

consider core. When I think of back I think of traps two three four depending

think of traps two three four depending on who you talk to and then I just

on who you talk to and then I just midback terries romboids don't care and

midback terries romboids don't care and then lats. But if you pick the right

then lats. But if you pick the right exercises you do not need that many to

exercises you do not need that many to work everything. Like I said, an

work everything. Like I said, an undergrip cable row or undergrip row

undergrip cable row or undergrip row will work the entire traps two, three,

will work the entire traps two, three, four, scapular retractors and lats. That

four, scapular retractors and lats. That one movement. If you add a lat movement,

one movement. If you add a lat movement, direct lat movement of any sort, like

direct lat movement of any sort, like you're sorted.

you're sorted. And you know my Facebook group, go find

And you know my Facebook group, go find the pictures of Summy's back. She did

the pictures of Summy's back. She did two exercises her entire career. Vbar

two exercises her entire career. Vbar cable row twice a week. Var pull down

cable row twice a week. Var pull down once a week. And her other volume didn't

once a week. And her other volume didn't count. Like, yeah, she was doing trap

count. Like, yeah, she was doing trap bar deadlifts for 3x3 and rack and [ __ ]

bar deadlifts for 3x3 and rack and [ __ ] but it was just like, nope.

but it was just like, nope. Again, yes, I realize there's a drug

Again, yes, I realize there's a drug issue, but if you look at like Dorian's

issue, but if you look at like Dorian's exercise selection, super logical.

exercise selection, super logical. Go look at his back workout.

Go look at his back workout. He had, you know, an undergrip rowing

He had, you know, an undergrip rowing movement, the eighth row, which he did

movement, the eighth row, which he did switch to overhand. He had a pullover

switch to overhand. He had a pullover pure lats. He had a one- arm row. Like,

pure lats. He had a one- arm row. Like, he didn't do 18 exercises for back. He

he didn't do 18 exercises for back. He did four of the right exercises

did four of the right exercises because there's so much overlap if you

because there's so much overlap if you pick your exercises correctly. Debate I

pick your exercises correctly. Debate I had once with my training partner years

had once with my training partner years ago is like why do people like so many

ago is like why do people like so many chest exercises like and why do they

chest exercises like and why do they always got to finish like five sets of

always got to finish like five sets of pec deck? He's like I think it's because

pec deck? He's like I think it's because they don't feel their chest during their

they don't feel their chest during their flat edge and I think he's absolutely

flat edge and I think he's absolutely right. I consulted with someone else and

right. I consulted with someone else and I'm like why are you doing all this

I'm like why are you doing all this extra work for chest and not for other

extra work for chest and not for other muscle groups? He goes, "Well, I don't

muscle groups? He goes, "Well, I don't really feel my pecs when I bench." So, I

really feel my pecs when I bench." So, I do cable crossover at the end to get a

do cable crossover at the end to get a pump. And I go, "Well, let me teach you

pump. And I go, "Well, let me teach you how to bench with your pecs." And you

how to bench with your pecs." And you won't need that. Waiting to hear back.

won't need that. Waiting to hear back. But it always works. Every time I talk

But it always works. Every time I talk to and I give these people that I'm

to and I give these people that I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no." I'm like,

like, "No, no, no, no, no." I'm like, "Look, barbell bench press first is not

"Look, barbell bench press first is not like start with pack deck or crossover

like start with pack deck or crossover or dumbbell fly exhaust your pecs, then

or dumbbell fly exhaust your pecs, then do two sets of that heavy and then go to

do two sets of that heavy and then go to two sets of barbell bench." and they're

two sets of barbell bench." and they're like, "Wow, this is the first time that

like, "Wow, this is the first time that I actually really felt my pecs get a

I actually really felt my pecs get a stimulus and be involved in both

stimulus and be involved in both movements."

movements." Because now in that again for people

Because now in that again for people with lanky arms or lanky legs, start

with lanky arms or lanky legs, start with isolations. And there have been

with isolations. And there have been bodybuilders over the years that

bodybuilders over the years that recommended that. Start the isolation

recommended that. Start the isolation stuff. Hire the muscle out first. then

stuff. Hire the muscle out first. then you don't have to go as heavy on the the

you don't have to go as heavy on the the big stuff and you still get a better

big stuff and you still get a better stimulus because now these other muscles

stimulus because now these other muscles can help you better can help you further

can help you better can help you further train right like okay so the lateral

train right like okay so the lateral raise upright row combo I would probably

raise upright row combo I would probably ideally have someone do lateral raise

ideally have someone do lateral raise first to get the because I know if I

first to get the because I know if I take they do a proper lateral raise two

take they do a proper lateral raise two reps in reserve I know what hit two reps

reps in reserve I know what hit two reps in reserve is their medial delts period

in reserve is their medial delts period there's no there's no debate then I

there's no there's no debate then I would have to do upright row next and

would have to do upright row next and the guy Why? What does it do that? Well,

the guy Why? What does it do that? Well, it lets the biceps now assist in further

it lets the biceps now assist in further wrecking the medial medial delts to put

wrecking the medial medial delts to put it in the phys physiological part. Like,

it in the phys physiological part. Like, yeah, you could just do up. Just could

yeah, you could just do up. Just could do lateral raises set after set and that

do lateral raises set after set and that would work too, but people get bored.

would work too, but people get bored. >> So, I'm like, yeah, do do two set or

>> So, I'm like, yeah, do do two set or they pace themselves.

they pace themselves. >> Some people when they're like, I got

>> Some people when they're like, I got four sets of somehow four sets of eight

four sets of somehow four sets of eight is different psychologically than two

is different psychologically than two sets of eight of two exercises. four

sets of eight of two exercises. four sets of eight they pace themselves. Like

sets of eight they pace themselves. Like I got three more sets of upright rows.

I got three more sets of upright rows. They've only got two sets up right rows.

They've only got two sets up right rows. They'll go a lot harder. And the two

They'll go a lot harder. And the two sets of sorry, four sets of lateral

sets of sorry, four sets of lateral raises will parse differently than two

raises will parse differently than two and two. And they'll go harder if they

and two. And they'll go harder if they do two and two.

do two and two. >> Maybe that's why like the two sets of a

>> Maybe that's why like the two sets of a bunch of different exercises is like the

bunch of different exercises is like the prevailing approach among UK

prevailing approach among UK bodybuilders, the natural ones anyway.

bodybuilders, the natural ones anyway. I've heard that.

I've heard that. >> Yeah. I like you to see it kind of go,

>> Yeah. I like you to see it kind of go, you know, go through and someone, this

you know, go through and someone, this was again a couple years ago when I

was again a couple years ago when I wrote this super ranty piece in my

wrote this super ranty piece in my Facebook group because a lot of people

Facebook group because a lot of people get really hung up on what I consider

get really hung up on what I consider minor details rather than fundamental

minor details rather than fundamental principles and they read some article I

principles and they read some article I want to say it was by Cub who's like for

want to say it was by Cub who's like for back he preferred to do two sets of four

back he preferred to do two sets of four different exercises than four sets of

different exercises than four sets of two exercises and this guy's like I

two exercises and this guy's like I don't I'm like look four sets to two

don't I'm like look four sets to two exercises is eight sets. Two sets of

exercises is eight sets. Two sets of four set exercises is eight sets. Who

four set exercises is eight sets. Who cares? Pick the one that fits you, the

cares? Pick the one that fits you, the equipment you have, what you like to do.

equipment you have, what you like to do. He's also an elite prolevel bodybuilder

He's also an elite prolevel bodybuilder who probably does need to have a little

who probably does need to have a little more attention to minor details. He has

more attention to minor details. He has to worry about, you know, the the the

to worry about, you know, the the the romboid minor lat tiein. You need a

romboid minor lat tiein. You need a bigger back. So, it doesn't like big

bigger back. So, it doesn't like big picture stuff. It all achieves the same

picture stuff. It all achieves the same damn thing, right? So if you want to do

damn thing, right? So if you want to do Dan Duchain actually a really

Dan Duchain actually a really interesting idea that I think is unique.

interesting idea that I think is unique. I I think it was I think the basis of it

I I think it was I think the basis of it was flawed, but I think it was an

was flawed, but I think it was an interesting idea. And his point was

interesting idea. And his point was realize this was 2000. This was like

realize this was 2000. This was like Poloquin was a big thing. And he's like,

Poloquin was a big thing. And he's like, look, most of these people in the in the

look, most of these people in the in the field were strength coaches. He's like,

field were strength coaches. He's like, strength is hugely neurological, which

strength is hugely neurological, which is true. And he's like their goal is to

is true. And he's like their goal is to improve you know strength his skill and

improve you know strength his skill and strength like neurologically and he goes

strength like neurologically and he goes but that's not maybe we need size

but that's not maybe we need size coaches right now his mistake well he's

coaches right now his mistake well he's not wrong right there are they are

not wrong right there are they are similar but different in terms of what

similar but different in terms of what you're attempting to do right strength

you're attempting to do right strength is very specific as I just had to

is very specific as I just had to explain to someone earlier today

explain to someone earlier today hypertrophy is totally local totally

hypertrophy is totally local totally general right it's just whatever it's

general right it's just whatever it's just local muscle strength super

just local muscle strength super neurological super specific what he said

neurological super specific what he said he says so like if you're doing four

he says so like if you're doing four sets of one exercise this is where Dan

sets of one exercise this is where Dan got it wrong said you know

got it wrong said you know you're getting those neurological

you're getting those neurological improvements set to set okay now that

improvements set to set okay now that doesn't happen advanced individuals

doesn't happen advanced individuals that's where he was incorrect in the

that's where he was incorrect in the physiology but his concern was like the

physiology but his concern was like the reason that you're getting the same a

reason that you're getting the same a stimulus is because your body's getting

stimulus is because your body's getting more neurologically efficient across

more neurologically efficient across sets he goes maybe it'd be better to do

sets he goes maybe it'd be better to do one

one set of eight exercises so that there is

set of eight exercises so that there is no neurological practice component. And

no neurological practice component. And I don't like I said I think he reached

I don't like I said I think he reached an interesting conclusion from an

an interesting conclusion from an incorrect premise

incorrect premise in that I mean and that's just like the

in that I mean and that's just like the logical extension of what we just talked

logical extension of what we just talked about. Okay, you could do eight sets of

about. Okay, you could do eight sets of eight of an exercise. You're really good

eight of an exercise. You're really good at it, right? And there have been guys

at it, right? And there have been guys that did that that were just perfectly

that did that that were just perfectly built and they're like, "Yeah, all I do

built and they're like, "Yeah, all I do is 20 cents of chest and my chest and

is 20 cents of chest and my chest and shoulders and triceps get huge because

shoulders and triceps get huge because they have perfectly balanced physiques,

they have perfectly balanced physiques, perfectly balanced musculature. That's

perfectly balanced musculature. That's it."

it." Then there's guys who are like, "Yeah,

Then there's guys who are like, "Yeah, you know," then you get to the ornal guy

you know," then you get to the ornal guy like, "Yeah, we did four or five sets of

like, "Yeah, we did four or five sets of four exercises. Got to hit all the

four exercises. Got to hit all the angles. Let's bring it to non ridiculous

angles. Let's bring it to non ridiculous volumes." Right? Say you're doing eight

volumes." Right? Say you're doing eight sets of eight, two reps in reserve.

sets of eight, two reps in reserve. Okay?

Okay? for your back. You could do eight sets

for your back. You could do eight sets of eight under grip pull down or sorry,

of eight under grip pull down or sorry, undergrip row. That would get

undergrip row. That would get everything. You might get bored crapless

everything. You might get bored crapless and you might pace yourself. All right,

and you might pace yourself. All right, so let's divide it up a little bit. All

so let's divide it up a little bit. All right, let's do four sets of an

right, let's do four sets of an undergrip row and then we'll do four

undergrip row and then we'll do four sets of a lat move. All right, cool.

sets of a lat move. All right, cool. Maybe let's go seat up style. Let's do

Maybe let's go seat up style. Let's do two sets of an undergrip row, two sets

two sets of an undergrip row, two sets of an elbows high row to take the lats

of an elbows high row to take the lats out of it. Two sets of a V-bar pull down

out of it. Two sets of a V-bar pull down to get lats in extension and two sets of

to get lats in extension and two sets of a medium overgrip to get lats in in a

a medium overgrip to get lats in in a deduction. All right. Well, Dan would

deduction. All right. Well, Dan would just go, well, let's just do one set.

just go, well, let's just do one set. We'll do one set of undergrip, one set

We'll do one set of undergrip, one set of elbows high, one set of this pull

of elbows high, one set of this pull down, one set of pullovers, one set of

down, one set of pullovers, one set of this, one set of shrug backs. Big

this, one set of shrug backs. Big picture, would it make a difference?

picture, would it make a difference? Only in that I could never think of that

Only in that I could never think of that many useful exercises for a given muscle

many useful exercises for a given muscle group. Like honestly, if you want to

group. Like honestly, if you want to know why I think I tend to take a

know why I think I tend to take a simplistic approach to exercise

simplistic approach to exercise selection, I can never think of enough

selection, I can never think of enough exercises that are worth a damn. There's

exercises that are worth a damn. There's so much redundancy. There's so much

so much redundancy. There's so much overlap. You're just doing the same

overlap. You're just doing the same thing over and over and over and over

thing over and over and over and over and over again. But

and over again. But >> yeah, I got a friend who who really

>> yeah, I got a friend who who really adopted that Dan Duchain approach

adopted that Dan Duchain approach >> and he got he does like his chest

>> and he got he does like his chest workouts the following way. He does a

workouts the following way. He does a flat press, then a 15 degree incline,

flat press, then a 15 degree incline, then a 30°ree incline, then a 45 degree

then a 30°ree incline, then a 45 degree incline, and then a 60 degree, and then

incline, and then a 60 degree, and then he does all these different crossover

he does all these different crossover heights. You know, that's his chest

heights. You know, that's his chest workout.

workout. >> I mean, which I mean, again, same thing.

>> I mean, which I mean, again, same thing. Like, usually the problem with that is

Like, usually the problem with that is people are like they do five sets of

people are like they do five sets of each redundant exercise, right? This is

each redundant exercise, right? This is like I' I've pointed this out

like I' I've pointed this out repeatedly. Like here's the typical the

repeatedly. Like here's the typical the typical, you know, gym rat chest

typical, you know, gym rat chest workout.

workout. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Three sets of flat bench, three sets of

>> Three sets of flat bench, three sets of dumbbell bench, three sets of chest

dumbbell bench, three sets of chest press. Okay. Those are all the same

press. Okay. Those are all the same movement. Oh, and of course, three sets

movement. Oh, and of course, three sets of cable crossover because they need

of cable crossover because they need >> followed by push-ups.

>> followed by push-ups. >> Then maybe

>> Then maybe >> incline barbell bench, dumbbell incline,

>> incline barbell bench, dumbbell incline, dumbbell incline bench, incline Smith

dumbbell incline bench, incline Smith machine. I'm like, those are all the

machine. I'm like, those are all the same movements.

same movements. At least if you're going to do multiple

At least if you're going to do multiple exercises per muscle group, do them with

exercises per muscle group, do them with different that that they're different.

different that that they're different. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And that could be a number of way. Like

>> And that could be a number of way. Like biceps is even worse. Holy crap. The

biceps is even worse. Holy crap. The biceps bend the elbow. Fine. There's a

biceps bend the elbow. Fine. There's a little bit of supenation. There's a

little bit of supenation. There's a little bit of shoulder flexion. How many

little bit of shoulder flexion. How many effing exercises do you need for a

effing exercises do you need for a muscle that does that one thing? The

muscle that does that one thing? The answer is not many. If you're going to

answer is not many. If you're going to do it,

do it, >> at least pick exercises rationally.

>> at least pick exercises rationally. >> So, what I tell people,

>> So, what I tell people, >> I've actually uploaded a video in which

>> I've actually uploaded a video in which you go through basically exactly this

you go through basically exactly this like all the exercises you do for each

like all the exercises you do for each body part.

body part. >> Yeah. It and it's it and like even then,

>> Yeah. It and it's it and like even then, but like it just in a general sense like

but like it just in a general sense like because what do you see barbell curl,

because what do you see barbell curl, dumbbell curl, cable curl, it's all the

dumbbell curl, cable curl, it's all the same movement.

same movement. >> At least do a different. So when I when

>> At least do a different. So when I when I con when I consult with people or if I

I con when I consult with people or if I was ever if I ever got around to writing

was ever if I ever got around to writing something about training like at least

something about training like at least look at it biomechanically

look at it biomechanically the biceps you can sort of define three

the biceps you can sort of define three different positions of the elbow

different positions of the elbow relative to the torso.

relative to the torso. >> Elbows by the side elbows in front

>> Elbows by the side elbows in front elbows behind the body. If you're going

elbows behind the body. If you're going to do multiple exercises at least make

to do multiple exercises at least make them differ in terms of their length

them differ in terms of their length tension relationship position. Same

tension relationship position. Same thing for triceps. There's only two.

thing for triceps. There's only two. Elbows up from the torso, whether it's a

Elbows up from the torso, whether it's a nose breaker, skull crusher, whatever,

nose breaker, skull crusher, whatever, or it's an overhead French press. You

or it's an overhead French press. You get tricep long head. Elbows by the

get tricep long head. Elbows by the side. That's it. Those are the That's

side. That's it. Those are the That's what triceps do. The end. That's it.

what triceps do. The end. That's it. Lats do two things. They extend at the

Lats do two things. They extend at the shoulder. They 80 duck. That's it.

shoulder. They 80 duck. That's it. That's all you need. And you don't even

That's all you need. And you don't even really need both of those if you're

really need both of those if you're doing it right. Right. Just it's just

doing it right. Right. Just it's just it. And I know I shared the same video.

it. And I know I shared the same video. One thing that I've brought up

One thing that I've brought up repeatedly,

repeatedly, probably the most coherent approach to

probably the most coherent approach to exercise selection that I've ever seen,

exercise selection that I've ever seen, positions of flexion by Steve Hullman

positions of flexion by Steve Hullman from Iron Man magazine,

from Iron Man magazine, which is interesting because based on

which is interesting because based on the current fad that have now gone away,

the current fad that have now gone away, he believed that the optimal hypertrophy

he believed that the optimal hypertrophy in terms of the best way to train a

in terms of the best way to train a muscle was you should pick an exercise

muscle was you should pick an exercise that trained the muscle.

that trained the muscle. One exercise should have peak force at

One exercise should have peak force at the mid-range. That's usually your combo

the mid-range. That's usually your combo should have then another that had peak

should have then another that had peak force in the stretch position.

force in the stretch position. And then a third that had the greatest

And then a third that had the greatest resistance in the peak contraction

resistance in the peak contraction position,

position, >> right? So chest, that would be a barbell

>> right? So chest, that would be a barbell or dumbbell bench, something compound.

or dumbbell bench, something compound. Really a pec like a fly would probably

Really a pec like a fly would probably be stretched

be stretched >> like a dumbbell fly. Right.

>> like a dumbbell fly. Right. >> Yeah. So that it's predominantly in the

>> Yeah. So that it's predominantly in the stretch position and then a crossover is

stretch position and then a crossover is peak contraction. Quads would be a

peak contraction. Quads would be a compound quad movement.

compound quad movement. >> Yep.

>> Yep. >> Leg extensions are peak contraction.

>> Leg extensions are peak contraction. >> Maybe like a Cissy squat.

>> Maybe like a Cissy squat. >> [ __ ] squat stretch position.

>> [ __ ] squat stretch position. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> That's at least

>> That's at least coherent because you're at least and his

coherent because you're at least and his was very you did like two sets like six

was very you did like two sets like six sets a piece per muscle group. Two two

sets a piece per muscle group. Two two of each. It's probably of all at least

of each. It's probably of all at least it made sense. At least there was a

it made sense. At least there was a logic to it of picking exercises that

logic to it of picking exercises that were doing different at least subtly

were doing different at least subtly different things biomechanically.

different things biomechanically. But that's not how most people approach

But that's not how most people approach it. And yeah, there was I I've crafted

it. And yeah, there was I I've crafted out a couple lists. I'm like, look, if

out a couple lists. I'm like, look, if you had to pick one exercise per muscle

you had to pick one exercise per muscle group, I would do this. You were going

group, I would do this. You were going to do two, I would do this and I would

to do two, I would do this and I would add a second one. And honestly, the

add a second one. And honestly, the majority of muscle groups, you can get

majority of muscle groups, you can get it done in two if you pick the right

it done in two if you pick the right exercise.

exercise. um back maybe three but by and large

um back maybe three but by and large there's just too many too many people do

there's just too many too many people do too many redundant exercises that are

too many redundant exercises that are all doing the same thing when I just but

all doing the same thing when I just but again it's a volume thing right your

again it's a volume thing right your buddy most people would approach that

buddy most people would approach that chest workout as four sets of each of

chest workout as four sets of each of those eight exercises at least he's only

those eight exercises at least he's only doing one a piece

doing one a piece >> hopefully like okay is it what I would

>> hopefully like okay is it what I would do no because I'm lazy and I don't feel

do no because I'm lazy and I don't feel like adjusting stuff or keeping track of

like adjusting stuff or keeping track of that many different ways. But do I have

that many different ways. But do I have a fundamental problem with it? No.

a fundamental problem with it? No. Genuinely

Genuinely similar thing. I had a buddy of mine.

similar thing. I had a buddy of mine. >> I mean, the the problem would be missing

>> I mean, the the problem would be missing the forest for the trees. Like if that

the forest for the trees. Like if that same person, my friend, were, you know,

same person, my friend, were, you know, not to eat very well or not to apply

not to eat very well or not to apply progressive overload or train

progressive overload or train particularly hard. Yeah. Then there

particularly hard. Yeah. Then there would be a problem. No, but like I I

would be a problem. No, but like I I think

think I know you're not trying to make a straw

I know you're not trying to make a straw man argument, but I I tend to just

man argument, but I I tend to just assume like I know it's dumb to assume

assume like I know it's dumb to assume those other things are self-evident, but

those other things are self-evident, but when we're discussing this, I'm assuming

when we're discussing this, I'm assuming that those other things are in play

that those other things are in play right now. No, I I just wanted to

right now. No, I I just wanted to express kind of my personal distaste for

express kind of my personal distaste for fiddling around with things which I see

fiddling around with things which I see as relatively minor contributors to

as relatively minor contributors to someone's ultimate success in the weight

someone's ultimate success in the weight room

room >> or the bodybuilding stage.

>> or the bodybuilding stage. >> Sure. But again, big picture stuff,

>> Sure. But again, big picture stuff, eight sets of one exercise, four sets of

eight sets of one exercise, four sets of two exercises, two sets of four

two exercises, two sets of four exercises, one set of eight different

exercises, one set of eight different exercises. Big picture stuff, who gives

exercises. Big picture stuff, who gives a crap? Like I I that that would be more

a crap? Like I I that that would be more about what fits the person's psychology,

about what fits the person's psychology, their interest. Like consider

their interest. Like consider that for him mentally, I'm not saying

that for him mentally, I'm not saying this is or isn't the case, but consider

this is or isn't the case, but consider that for him, thinking in terms of I've

that for him, thinking in terms of I've only got one set of this exercise, he

only got one set of this exercise, he might train harder

might train harder >> because if someone knows, this is just

>> because if someone knows, this is just this is just interesting. Someone asked

this is just interesting. Someone asked Arnold one time in the gym, how many

Arnold one time in the gym, how many sets do you have left? And he said, just

sets do you have left? And he said, just this one.

this one. And he wasn't being facicious and he

And he wasn't being facicious and he didn't mean he only had one more set

didn't mean he only had one more set before the workout was over. What he was

before the workout was over. What he was saying was nothing exists to me except

saying was nothing exists to me except what I am doing at this moment. I'm not

what I am doing at this moment. I'm not thinking about what I've done and I'm

thinking about what I've done and I'm not thinking about what I have left to

not thinking about what I have left to do. It was an indicator of his level of

do. It was an indicator of his level of focus and intensity. All that mattered

focus and intensity. All that mattered was that singular set. And once it was

was that singular set. And once it was done, then he's got the next set.

done, then he's got the next set. perhaps for the person you're talking

perhaps for the person you're talking about by thinking in terms of I've only

about by thinking in terms of I've only got one set of this exercise. I don't

got one set of this exercise. I don't have to pace myself. I don't have to

have to pace myself. I don't have to worry about how much do I need to adjust

worry about how much do I need to adjust the weight on the second set due to

the weight on the second set due to fatigue. Maybe he's training harder than

fatigue. Maybe he's training harder than he had. I'm not saying he is or he

he had. I'm not saying he is or he isn't, but for people with a certain

isn't, but for people with a certain psychology,

psychology, that is a possibility.

And for others, it's not. Like I said, me, I'm super lazy. if I can come up

me, I'm super lazy. if I can come up with if I can do three exercises like I

with if I can do three exercises like I train purely dog crap rest pause style

train purely dog crap rest pause style now I do not like being in the gym I'm

now I do not like being in the gym I'm old I'm tired I just want to get in and

old I'm tired I just want to get in and get it done and I'm good at intensity

get it done and I'm good at intensity like yeah I'll I might when I was

like yeah I'll I might when I was dieting I did one exercise per muscle

dieting I did one exercise per muscle group maintenance now that I'm back to

group maintenance now that I'm back to upper lower I'll do two maybe three if

upper lower I'll do two maybe three if I'm feeling particularly saucy I'll do

I'm feeling particularly saucy I'll do one rest pause set of like two or three

one rest pause set of like two or three different exercises and go

different exercises and go But I give it, you know, and again, you

But I give it, you know, and again, you look at Dorian, he did one allout top

look at Dorian, he did one allout top set of carefully selected exercises that

set of carefully selected exercises that hit everything he needed to hit. And it

hit everything he needed to hit. And it was a very I mean, honestly, you I look

was a very I mean, honestly, you I look at it and go, "Yeah, that's pretty much

at it and go, "Yeah, that's pretty much what I came up with." You know, his

what I came up with." You know, his triceps workout. He did a decline. He

triceps workout. He did a decline. He did a nose breaker. He did a two- arm

did a nose breaker. He did a two- arm push down. And then he believed in

push down. And then he believed in finishing with a one- arm exercise for

finishing with a one- arm exercise for better, you know, mental focus, central

better, you know, mental focus, central drive. He felt that he got a better

drive. He felt that he got a better stimulus. So that he did three sets for

stimulus. So that he did three sets for triceps and he did one with the elbows

triceps and he did one with the elbows up from the body, two with the elbows

up from the body, two with the elbows down by the body. Yeah.

down by the body. Yeah. Rear delts. He did reverse pec deck and

Rear delts. He did reverse pec deck and bent over dumbbell row or bent over

bent over dumbbell row or bent over dumbbell lateral because what the hell

dumbbell lateral because what the hell else do the rear delts do? How many

else do the rear delts do? How many freaking exercises do you need for the

freaking exercises do you need for the rear delts? What do the medial delts do?

rear delts? What do the medial delts do? That

That that's it.

that's it. I realize there was a study in the 2000s

I realize there was a study in the 2000s that said the delts had seven different

that said the delts had seven different segments that everybody went nuts over

segments that everybody went nuts over because if you take Gonda who said that

because if you take Gonda who said that a muscle has four sides upper, lower,

a muscle has four sides upper, lower, inner, outer, that means that adults

inner, outer, that means that adults need 28 exercises,

need 28 exercises, four for every segment or you can just

four for every segment or you can just use let pressing take care of front

use let pressing take care of front delts, do some rear delt work, and then

delts, do some rear delt work, and then do a little bit of direct needle delt

do a little bit of direct needle delt work. It's a tiny muscle. How how much

work. It's a tiny muscle. How how much work do you need? And yet people do four

work do you need? And yet people do four exercises for each of the head of the

exercises for each of the head of the delt,

delt, right? There's no logic to it. None.

right? There's no logic to it. None. >> Yeah. So there you go.

>> Yeah. So there you go. >> Thank you. Yeah. No, there everyone

>> Thank you. Yeah. No, there everyone goes.

goes. >> And and yeah, and I mean I think it's

>> And and yeah, and I mean I think it's interesting. I don't, you know, I don't

interesting. I don't, you know, I don't keep up with, you know, the trends among

keep up with, you know, the trends among natural or drug using bodybuilders, but

natural or drug using bodybuilders, but it wouldn't surprise, you know, usually

it wouldn't surprise, you know, usually it's whatever whoever successful people

it's whatever whoever successful people copy. So, I'm sure people looked at Cub

copy. So, I'm sure people looked at Cub and they were like, "Oh, he does two

and they were like, "Oh, he does two sets of four exercises." I

sets of four exercises." I >> You mean Seabbum? Like Chris B. Yeah.

>> You mean Seabbum? Like Chris B. Yeah. >> Yeah. Whatever. Cub whatever. Yeah. Seb

>> Yeah. Whatever. Cub whatever. Yeah. Seb No, I do actually do I Sebum. Uh Chris

No, I do actually do I Sebum. Uh Chris Bumstead. Although, you know, they're

Bumstead. Although, you know, they're like, "Okay, well, he does two sets for

like, "Okay, well, he does two sets for four." Like I there are worse ways to

four." Like I there are worse ways to train. That's for damn sure. Um at the

train. That's for damn sure. Um at the very, you know, that's at least rational

very, you know, that's at least rational to me.

to me. The problem is again when people do that

The problem is again when people do that usually their multiple exercise routines

usually their multiple exercise routines they're doing four or five sets of each

they're doing four or five sets of each exercise and it's overkill completely.

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YouTube Transcript:Lyle McDonald Goes to WAR With These 5 Barbell Lifts (Squat, Bench Press, Deadlift, OHP, and Row)

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Lyle McDonald Goes to WAR With These 5 Barbell Lifts (Squat, Bench Press, Deadlift, OHP, and Row)