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Simon Cowell Opens Up About His Heartbreaking Loss & His Regrets About One Direction!

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it was the most devastating thing that

ever happened in my life thinking what

have I got to live for and

minute please welcome Simon cow the

scale of his success is staggering who's

changed the landscape of television and

music it's absolutely Dreadful as a kid

you're quite naive aren't you seriously

naive trying to take on the world with

music publishing company which fails in

the car park and then you go from there

to I'm going to start my own record

label in 24 I met Sanita in this club

and I thought I'm going to make a record

with that I don't know how a record's

made I can't read music but let's just

do it the first time it flopped second

time it flopped even when I had the hit

I owed the bank £500,000 and I'm broke

but I would rather be mocked for being

different than being safe do you

remember this single their album hits

number number one yeah but this was a

real Bittersweet time because I get a

phone call which starts with you sitting

down and I was on a dam with spiral from

that period became a ridiculous

workaholic working till 7:00 in the

morning suffering from depression and

the truth is I still suffer from

depression at

times what about One Direction the one

thing I regret about One Direction is so

boys if you're listening

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thank you from the bottom of my heart

for allowing me to do something that me

and my team love doing so much it is the

greatest honor of my lifetime and I hope

it I hope it continues uh off into the

Future Let's get to the [Music]

episode Simon in order to understand the

man that sits with me

today what is the early context that I

must know about that will help me to

understand the Simon cow that all of us

know so well what is that early context

the the oven that you were you were cooked

cooked

in well I had a happy childhood I was

always bored though uh really bored at

school I always wanted to have a life

where I would be interested and have

have fun when I was told the school days

are the best days of your life I'm

thinking oh my God this is terrible

because I hate school so uh I was really

determined to do something where I would

be actually just having fun that's what

I kept thinking to myself and I want to

start making my own

money um and and one thing my parents

did do when we were very very young

because in those days you could actually

even at the age of about seven or eight

you know in our neighborhood is

go around to people's houses knock on

their door and say can I can I wash your

car can I mow the lawn uh because my mom

and dad said um if we pay for the

holiday you've got to earn your spending

money so I'm like fine so but I used to

love it um if you got 10 quid for like

washing a car I mean it was like Bingo

it was the best feeling so you mentioned

your mother there can you tell me about

the influence that your mother and your

father Julie and Eric MH how on you when

I lost them um particularly when I lost

my mom because then it was kind of final

it was the most devastating thing that

ever happened in my life I mean it was a

very it

was as bad as things could possibly be

um and we just had the most amazing

relationship um uh my mom was the

disciplinarian I

remember I must have been about four

years old maybe even younger and and I

remember where I was I was sitting in

the car and she said something to me and

she said manners maketh the man and I

like what does that mean she go manners

maketh the mat and then she explained

what that meant and it's always stuck in

my head because it's such an

oldfashioned way of saying be polite

both my parents were very kind of uh old

school um they were very respectful

to everyone I always remember that and I

looked up to both of them and I always

knew at any time I could go to them uh

when I needed advice um and they would

always give me the right steer and they

were always there for me your work ethic

is renowned yeah I've spoken to a lot of

people in your team currently um and one

of the things they always described as

through much of what got you to where

you are today is an insane work ethic

and when I say insane I mean insane with

every sense of the word where does that

come from because you know you said your

childhood was happy and typically when

someone has a pretty insane work ethic

you there's some kind of trauma at

somewhere you know but for you I

couldn't quite identify what that

was it probably comes from um my dad uh

worked for a large corporation um and

before he retired he said to me don't

work for a large company because when

you're you know 65 or whatever they're

going to retire you and you'll never

hear from them again and that is exactly

what happened to my dad and it was

heartbreaking because he did work hard

he was a very loyal person you know to

the company he worked for when he passed

away you know he didn't have any money that's

that's

probably what may me realize a I don't

want to be in that position and secondly

the only way I can achieve that is by

working for myself and I always had this

crazy vision of if I work for a company

and I don't get on well with the

boss he's going to probably invite me to

his house and talk about golf I just

always had this in my head thinking I

couldn't think of anything worse than

having to suck up to a boss who doesn't

like me and the reason I kept thinking

my boss would never like me is because I

was so bad at school and my teachers

were quite strict with me so I thought

work was probably going to be the same

um so uh that's what drove me and you

know my dad also you know he knew you

know because I I I didn't do very well

with my exam results and he did say to me

it's quite clear some you're not going

to make

University um have you made up your mind

what you want to do and I said this I

want to do something I think in

entertainment I'm not sure what and he

said look whatever you do you're going

to have to be patient because it's not

going to happen overnight you if you

want to do well you've got to learn to

be good at it and it could take 20 years

it could take 30 years but understand

that and I'm like I'm fine with that and

I really was fine with that your dad

seems like a man that gave a lot of

actual advice a lot of advice that

frankly I read your book as well that

you can still remember to this day

because my parents taught me things but

vicariously by watching them I can't

think of a single sentence that my my

parents said to me that was advice but

you've got so much advice that you

recite from your father which I think is

pretty remarkable well yeah he I mean

one of the um the things that always

stuck in my mind and it was quite an odd

thing to say to a 12-year-old he said

everyone in life Simon has a sign on

their head and it says make me feel

important and I want you to think about

that I'm thinking s on there well I have

no idea what that means why' you say

that maybe he had a couple of drinks um

and then I forget when I realized what

it meant but boy did that stick in my

mind which was if you want to do one in

life it's going to be a team effort and

make make sure you

recognize every single person on that

team and so if I walk into a room um I

instantly um I think pretty much from

the point I understood it is that I can

walk into a room and I can see I see

everything in one in in one moment I see

the person who's opening the door I see

the person who's doing a particular job

so in other words I see

the room always as a team and you did

that the minute you walked into this

room because there was what 10 people

here from the person that opened the

door the person that got the coffee the

people you know taking care of the

cameras and you and this is rare and

obviously I've done 300 of these

conversations you went around to every

single person in this room and took an

interest in every single person which is

it's not typical especially when you're

dealing with people that are have a have

a big sort of public profile we've had

people walk in it completely ignore me

for 10 minutes sit down and text and

take phone

calls uh I unfortunately I've seen a lot

of that as well yeah uh and I see an

awful lot of H hypocrisy which are

people yes who who on the outside you

know they they show one side of it I

then always see that person when they're

off camera and who they really are and

um and they are the opposite they will

just like you said completely ignore

everybody um the worst thing is and I

had this as I as I was you know trying

to get my career started there's nothing

worse than when you're talking to

somebody and as as they're talking to

you they're they're looking for someone

more important than you I I remember

feeling that you know uh at an early age

in my career and how that felt and it

was very demeaning and I suppose you

know those two uh stories about my mom

and dad they were really really really

important things and they must have

known that I that that would uh mean

something for me later on in life and

I've said the same thing uh to my son

Eric you know I remember the first time

I said to him Eric maners make of the

man he was about two he's like look at

me and he repeated it back completely

right that's going say it again and then

eventually I think he must have been

about four and he was very polite to

someone and like and I said I'm very

proud of you Eric he went maners makeer

the man Daddy and I'm like you've got

it maybe you need a little bit of

two-year-old but you turn you turn to

your father and you express that you'll

pursue entertainment and music at sort

of 12 how old were you when you first

said that to your father I probably I

was yeah I would have been about

12ish um there was nothing I excelled in

at school at all you were surrounded by

music people and entertainment people

where you lived I think your dad at one

point worked at Emi yeah he he he worked

for their real estate division is is

that where music because I'm trying to

figure out where music came from I've

got this kid that's naughty not paying

attention in school I read the stories

about you holding up a bus with a spud

gun should have said that you were

drinking but they called the police

because you were holding up a bu gun and

I'm thinking where is music come into it

because it doesn't appear that you were

playing a huge amount of musical well I

I loved buying records um so just you

know going into a record shop um and

saving up enough money for you you know

to buy a single or an album was just

everything so most of my spending money

would go on on records I I can vividly

remember going into my bedroom with a

brand new album and just loving

listening to every single track on it it

was such an exciting feeling so when you

leave school and you go off and try and

find your own career you worked a few

jobs you were a trainee at Tesco I think

at one point well

uh my dad uh he said uh okay uh you

failed all your exams uh twice uh so

you're going to have to get a job

assignment um uh and since you're not

qualified uh what about tesos I don't

know where that came from I'm like doing

what and he said Bo you know you could

uh end up maybe managing a store or

something and I'm like okay so I turned

up at this interview and I remember I

wore jeans and before I even sat down

the guy said uh how dare you um how dare

you come in here wearing jeans and I'm

like I'm sorry he said well how dare you

and I was so annoyed I said you know

what I'm really glad I came here because

I never want to work for you or your

company and by the way your office looks like

out so that didn't go that well my

mom uh made an application for me to

work for the Civil Service um so I was

interviewed to be I think like a law

Clerk or something um and that and it

actually had a chart which told you

exactly how much money you would make at

the age of 64 and I'm like that's not

going to happen then my dad thought I

should be in the building trade and I

was going to have to work at this sort

of building site whatever it was for two

years to learn everything and I thought

no um and then eventually I got a job uh

as a runner and at um elry Studios and

the second I got that job it was like

brilliant uh I was so happy and and it

and it was hard work why why was that

job that you described it I think as a

sliding doors moment in your life why

was that job why was that your up to

your heart i' kind of worked out that

how to become a director you know you

have to become a third assistant second

assistant first Assistant two years in

editing sweets blah blah blah H and I

was I was up for that I thought this is

something I I think I would love

unfortunately the contract I had only

lasted for two months and the executive

producer uh was so

mean uh that he said after two months

well that's it we don't need you anymore

but the Pas like me so much they paid

for my salary so but he was so awful

this guy every time he would come into

the building I used to have to hide

under their desks and he caught me one

day and he said what are you still doing

here and I said well nothing he said

well who's paying you and I said nobody

and he said were you're not allowed to

be here and he threw me out and then I

nearly got a job

on actually I was offered a job as a

runner on The Shining they were just

making that I saw the hotel being built

on the lot when I was a runner um my mom

at the same time had made an application

for me to work in the post room at Emi

music publishing you how old at this

point I was 17 point yeah so I had this

choice of I could become a runner

runner

uh uh at a big Film Studio on what

looked like a great movie MH or I could

go in the post room at in my music

publishing and something made me go and

I tell you what it was I passed the

studio where I was going to work as a

runner one particular day and there was

a queue of people just outside the

building and I went up to someone I said

you know what's everyone queuing for and

they went work I said what do you mean

they said well um no one here is on

contract and uh when a new production

you know uh happens uh it's pretty much

first come first served and I'm thinking

God this doesn't sound very reliable um

I don't like the idea of that so I think

I'll take my chances and I'll work in

the music publishing post room in the

when you say the post room yeah do you

mean where the post is sent yeah yeah

literally so it was it wasn't a very

nice building um uh and our it was

almost like being in a garage where we

were it was definitely a basement um uh

the there were two guys who used to work

I think one of them was called Harry or

something they were probably in their

mid to late 60s and I turn up all cocky

you know right I've got a job in the

post room and I'm going to do this and

I'm going to do that and they were like

just make us a cup of tea son and blah

blah blah but it it was good be uh because

because

uh I did get a chance to understand what

everybody did in in in the company and I

I think I was making1 18s a week at that

point and as the months wore on because

I thought someone's going to realize I'm

really talented and offer me a great job

and I literally would walk into

everyone's offices pretty much every day

and say can can I have a job a better

job and there's nothing going I I

literally even the managing director I

just walked in one day and I said I'm

Simon blah can I have a job because I'm

really passionate and he just threw me

out of his office um were you asking

questions about the industry to those

people in those offices always yeah

every time every time there were a few

people who were really really kind to me

and they explained what they did they

they explained to me how music

publishing worked what they do for the

writers the cataloges everything so I

started to get an understanding of how

the music business worked I also

glimpsed some of the checks that were

coming in being in the mail room uh and

my jaw dropped

um seeing how much Kate Bush for

instance earned it was like Daddy hell

if you do one of this business there's a

lot of money I had no idea there's

something about that in terms of like

career advice because I really heard

that you were even though you in the

post room you peppering people with lots

of questions yeah now there's a lot of

you know there's a lot of people working

a lot of jobs right now who might not

have understood the importance of being

curious even if you're at the very start

of your career or the bottom of the

proverbial ladder yeah but that seemed

to be really pivotal because there's lot

people that would work in a post room

and know nothing else but the but the

post room yeah but you you were annoying

people I was actually maybe in a kind of

a charmingly annoying way um I was

always you know very polite I was very

on time I would always say here's your

um uh mail sir ma'am is there anything

else I can do for you and while I'm here

blah blah blah blah blah uh and so I was

sort of like the company

pet however it did start to goul on me

after a while about how little money I

was making and my brother making a lot

of money now being

uh an EST state agent and I and and I

wasn't offered a job out of the mail

room I thought it was going to happen

after about a year after 18 months

nothing and

so I'm I said right nothing's happening

here I'm going to become an estate agent

and my dad because he did have

connections with property he got me to

work for a company called hilia Parker

May and rden now even by the name you

can just tell the kind of people people

who were I mean they were just awful

awful people really

snobby uh really mean really rude and

after a month uh my mom uh said to me

you're really unhappy aren't you and I

said yes I'm really unhappy I hate this

um and then my dad uh knew the guy who

ran in my music publishing now this is

where I was in the post room and I don't

really think he connected me with my dad

because my dad actually said to him I

can't believe after 18 months you didn't

you know give Simon at least a little

promotion he went I didn't realize that

was your son or so he claims I I'll

never know um anyway the next thing is

an opening suddenly arrives and and my

mom I remember her face she said I've

got some really exciting news for you

and I said what she said I think uh

there's a better job for you at Emi

music publishing and you got to have an

interview and it was working in the

international Department of Emi music

publishing which basically means that uh

writers that were signed say in America

Germany whatever this department

administered their copyrights right um

and the job that became available was a

song plugger which meant um all of the

hundreds of thousands or if not millions

of songs they published my job was to

get other people to cover those songs so

they could generate more money oh okay

um and to do that uh it was quite a

difficult job because it was the country

music division now at that point country

was not very popular in the UK and a lot

of these songs are unknown and what made

it really difficult was is that this job

was actually promised to somebody else

in the

company um and obviously it got out that

I got the job because my dad helped me

get the job forgetting the fact I

already worked there for 18 months it

just looked like I was given even though

it paid I think 30 quid a week or

something it wasn't like a high paay job

and uh no one would talk to me for the

first 6 months so I'm like terrible so I

locked myself into this room and I just

thought no one's talking to me I'm just

going to listen to every one of these

terrible country songs uh and I listened

to literally thousands and thousands of

songs over six months compiled a list

and then just went out to all the record l

met up with all as many anr people as I

could and said I think I've got a great

song here and it will be perfect for one

of your artists and I did get a lot of

the songs covered are you were eight

what 17 18 years old I was about

probably about 189 at that point um and

then uh my

boss uh

said I think you're really bright Simon

um why don't we start a company together

uh and I was like it's a bit early isn't

it I'm like 19 and he said uh I I've

been here for 16 years uh you're never

going to uh make much money um let's

just do it uh I've actually found found

someone to back us so I met these people

they owned a recording studio I had a

really really bad feeling and I said

I I just I don't think I can do this

it's too early I don't I don't even know

what I'm doing at the moment let alone

run run my own company and he said well

I think you better go and meet these

people and tell them that the answer is

no and it was he did it you know he knew

what was going to happen because I went

and they persuaded me and I and I I know

I knew I'd made a

mistake so we started this company we

had about £40,000 uh

seed money uh our offices were in an NCP

car park uh I think it actually used to

be a

Lou our office it was just so bad um and

I'm like oh god what have I done I just

got this job with Emi and now I'm

working in a l in a car park and this is

not going to work um and after about 18

months I just left your own company was

it ens enss yeah Ellis and Simon right

yeah but then I met somebody who was a

manager who managed hot

gossip um and he had a really cool

office in South Molton Street and I and

I just really liked him he was really

funny and I said um can I work for you

and he went do you what I said I want to

start a record label and he went

seriously and I said well you got this

great management company um I think I I

know how to make records um let's just

do it and he

went uh I'll pay

you40 a week and we agreed on 55 and I'm

like brilliant and I don't know I just

suddenly from feeling really this isn't

working to I've really got a feeling

this is going to work you were quite

naive weren't you oh yeah I mean

seriously naive yeah because it's like a

kid is like trying to Take On the World

with like a his own music publishing

company which fails in the car park L

and then he goes from there to I'm going

to start my own record label at what 20

26 25 years old so you start this record

label is that Fan Fair records yeah um

so uh I met Sanita in this club the

embassy Club which was a brilliant

nightclub um I liked her she liked me and

and

uh I said oh I run my own record label

nice and I thought it's a great pickup

like and she said oh I'm an artist I

really I said um have you made any demos

and she said yeah so I said well can can

we meet again and uh and we did meet

again and she did play me some demos and

I said actually You' got a really really

good recording voice um and at the

time uh there was this particular kind

of uh sound uh dance music which is

really becoming popular and it was all

originating from I think

um uh the French part of Canada uh where

a lot of these records were originally

made they were all breaking out of gay

clubs across the ukuk um and I just had

this idea for Sita which was she was so

beautiful so much fun and I thought I

know what I'm going to do I'm going to

make a record with her and I'm going to

break it

through uh through the clubs across the

UK um and I I just had this crazy idea

in my head for a title and I said to

this uh guy I met he hadn't had a hit

before um

uh this is Sanita blah blah blah blah

blah uh I want a record this is how I

think I'm going to break it I want it to

be called so match up and he that looked

to me like right so we made two records

one was called so Macho the other one

was called God youve got it is the other

side cruising this is the record that's

it my God that's a great leave by the

way it's it's fantastic yeah that's

right so much and cruising the problem

was is the guy I was working with um

says to me

um I'm expanding into book publishing

I'm like okay

fine um so he didn't really take any

notice of what I was doing and then he

said to me

um I've been uh a public company uh you

know basically wants to buy my business

blah blah blah blah blah great I'm

shutting down the record label I'm like

are you kidding I've just I've just made

this record I think it's going to be a

hit and he went no I'm shutting it down

and I

said what does that mean for me he said

well you're out of a job and I said look

you I know you've made a lot of money

you're probably going to make a ton more

do me a favor would you just give me

£5,000 I don't want a salary but with

that money I will make the video I'll

get it distributed blah blah blah

recorded video everything and he went

let me think about it and I kept calling

him over the weekend and eventually said

okay fine 5,000 and that's it so I

thought okay that I think should be

enough um and

that was you know I suppose one of the

biggest turning points in my life if he

had said no at that point I'm not sure

what I would have done what would you

have done um I would have hustled it

from somewhere um because I really did

believe in this the minute I heard the

record from I just thought this is going

to be a hit how'd you know I just felt

it you know I I had a good I the the

funny thing is when I first when I

actually made my first

record the uh the producer said do you

want to come down to the studio and I

said no and he said why I said because I

don't want to know how a record is made

he said why he said I said because I

want to listen to it as anybody who buys

records if I know how are records made

it's going to sound different to me so

to this day I don't know how a record is

actually made I don't know how it

started does someone play a baseline or

keyboard I mean I literally haven't got

a clue strange uh because I know it

would be an

it's like when people do magic on on my

shows I'm not the person who goes I know

how you did that I go I believe in magic

and I will literally make myself believe

in magic um and with music it was sort

of the same thing which is I don't want

to know too much I just I don't want to

pretend that I can read music because I

can't I don't want to make uh make

myself believe that I can be a producer

cuz I probably could couldn't be a very

good producer but I think I could be a

very good anr person which is find an

artist find them the right song and then

you know break the record and it took me

about a year and a half to break that

record um it was tough I just want to

pause on that what you said there about

not knowing anything about music or how

a record is

made what I what I heard there I guess

in between the lines is you want to

remain The

Listener and not the Creator because you

think it's more valuable to maintain the

perspective of the consumer completely

100% that I mean you've hit the nail on

the head this is exactly that and also I

didn't want to

ever you know because I'd met some

successful producers you know over the

years you know and I I I had this

of because I heard stories ofr people

who went into Studios pretending they

understood how to make a record and

hadn't got a clue in fact one guy

actually had literally a piece of

metal uh like a train track or something

literally a piece of iron and he had it

on his Studio wall and he called it the

wack ometer because all these idiot anr

guys used to come come in yeah I don't

really like the mix of the record and he

go yeah I know exactly what you mean let

me just adjust this and so he would just

pull the lever down and the guys would

go night and day and I couldn't think of

anything more embarrassing so I've

always been the first to say I don't

know how our records made I can't read

music um haven't really got a clue but I

think I do have a good ear for a hit or

a potential hit there's something really

transferable to marketing I've obviously

spent the last 10 years working in

marketing and one of the the most

passionate things I've said on stage a

gazillion times to my teams is trying to

get us out of the perspective of the

Creator and into the perspective of the

person that's going to see it out in the

world and I have to say it is like an

impossible task yeah it sounds so simple

and what you're describing is is what

I've fought so hard to try and con con

convey to people well I think you can do

do that if if you believe it yourself

and and I did have this strong belief in

myself that finally I'd found something

I could do which was um make a record

you know make a terrible video um and uh

I mean I because obviously we used to

have to physically manufacture the

records so I didn't have have a lot of

credit so I had to do a lot of deals you

know with these people look I'll pay you

if you'll make me 10 I think 10,000 was

the minimum or something I mean the

whole thing what I had to go through to

get this record into the charts and it

was all about getting it into the top 40

and it took me three times first time it

flopped second time it flopped and then

what I did uh was I I said to the uh uh

Warehouse I said what is the problem

they said well the record's selling but

it's not it keeps selling the Simon but

um it's not enough to get to get it into

the 40 so I said well why don't we hold the

the

order and they said well we're not

really supposed to do that what does

that mean uh in other words just say

it's out of stock um on the

computer but it's not out of stock just

don't let them have the record when they

order it in other words let's build up

the back orders so we built up whatever

the back order was and then all the

people who' ordered a record three

months ago four months ago suddenly all

these records arrived that week and it

worked it got the record into the top 40

it squeezed in and I got a breaker on

top of the pops and the record just

exploded after that because of

circumstances heavily outside of your

control Fan Fair records collapses um

owing the bank $500,000 and you're left

with about5 in your pocket and you move

back in with your parents at 30 years

old my age well it wasn't the label that

owed the money it was me

um uh because all of us were encouraged

to buy shares in this company uh because

we were told the company was doing

really really well so the bank manager

was practically forcing me to borrow

money you know because he said the

shares are going to go up in value um

and at the same time

um I thought everything was just going

to be wonderful so I bought a house um I

bought a Porsche of course uh uh I had a

gold credit card which no one explained

to me how that works in terms of the

interest rates um so I'm living it up

um and when it all came crashing down uh

500,000 um so I had to go in and see the

bank and they had the nice guy and they

had the not so nice guy and the Not So

Nice Guy was okay where's the money

right well you lent it to me you know

where it's just gone and the other guy

was like yeah well you know it was

partly our fault and blah blah blah blah

blah so I said look all I can tell you

is uh if you bankrupt me I don't care uh

because I don't have anything um uh I

don't have a job uh I don't have any

income I've just got this debt what

about the push what about the push it

all went the whole lot even when I sold

the house I still owed money on the

mortgage so I I I was I was on paper

bankrupt yes so I moved back in with my

mom and dad and that was

really told me what great people they

were because there wasn't one moment

where either of them said you know you

failed or this or that it was like it's

a life lesson Simon and you'll get over

it um and I managed to find a bank

amazingly to lend me because I basically

I negotiated the debt down we worked out

what the interest was over the period of

time what the capital sum was and then I

got into half that and I said somehow

I'll pay it back to you so I found

another bank who just backed me I just

sold myself and I said look you know I

my first record I ever made went to

number two whatever it was in the chart

sold a million copies this is what my

career is going to be uh what happened

was was out of my control and he said I

don't know I've got a feeling about you

um I'm prepared to lend you some money

to pay back the other bank which meant I

didn't become bankrupt so I went uh back

to live with my mom and dad and it was

actually quite an interesting time

because I I remember and I've told the

story a lot is that I had to get from a

particular destination in the West End

to where my parents lived and I had

about5 cash and I remember thinking it's

literally all the money I've got left in

in the world and I'm not sure what the

five quid is going to cover the taxi

ride home and I think we I know we just

about made it and I said I'm sorry about

the tip because I haven't got any more

money um it was about 10 P or

something uh fortunately had a very very

good lawyer guy called Tony Russell um

and I said to Tony um look I'm in not in

a great place I'd met him actually

because he represented George Michael

and he sued me uh uh when I'd made a

mega mix

of which we used to do we used to

literally get in session

singers and say Kylie Mano just record

eight Kylie Mano records with someone

who sounded like Kylie Mano mixed them

so weed to call them Mega mixes and they

would they'd sell about 10 20,000 copies

we used to export them all over the

world I did a Wham one we got sued by

George Michael that's how I met my

lawyer because he was repres

representing George and I said I'd

rather you represent me next time and he

was brilliant because he said look I

think Simon weirdly what's happened to

you is the best thing that's ever

happened and I said why I said I'm broke

I don't have a job he

said he said but you succeeded so far

Simon with everything you you put out

because I had had you know success with

some other records along the way um he

said I think you should get a label deal

which means that you own uh part of the

company with a major label um so I'm

like okay uh if you can get me if you

can get me one

brilliant and we went to meet two

companies in on the same day uh BMG and

Universal and

literally uh that

day uh at the end of the day Tony calls

me he I've had two calls I mean go on

universal has said no I'm like BMG

has said yes I'm like

seriously there's a caveat got one year

and within that one year you got to sell

x amount of records and I'm like I'll do

it and I did and that was kind of how I

got myself back up and running again by

the way the other thing I should mention

is I said to Tony um by the way um I

don't have any money to pay you um the

lawyer the lawyer I said so you know I

I'm not sure I can afford you and he

said well I I Believe In You Simon I

think one day you will end up repaying

me and I'll always remember that uh and

uh years later of course you know we did

a lot of deals together and of course I

repaid him but I mean the fact that he

was there for me at that moment I mean

that was again a lifechanging moment for

me there's these people throughout your

story that seem to be so critical um

mentors people that were there to catch

you when you fell and treated you in a

pleasant way one of those as well was

Peter Waterman you described meeting the

day I met Peter Waterman was easily the

most important day of my career you said

that in your book I don't mean to be

rude but ah well it was because

um I I I I realized very very quickly um

that it was unlikely I would was going

to be able to sign or find singer

songwriters so I was going to have to

find artists who needed songs written

for them um so I needed to find the best

pop writers um you know literally in the

world I heard this record on the radio

and I just thought wow whoever this is

this record is brilliantly made um and I

found out it was produced by stock Akon

and Waterman no one had heard of them at

this point so I call up here and I said

hi my name is s car blah blah blah and I

can I meet you and he went yeah so I

went down to his Studios and we met we

were sitting on these literally wooden

boxes the studio was like a real mess

and I said I've got this um uh record uh

I'm about to put out I he put on so

Macho took it off that's said hit I went

yeah I know will you produce her

followup and he went no I said would he

be no I thought I thought I was doing

him a favor and he went um I'm too busy

and I said doing what and literally the

place was falling apart and he gave me

this awful wink he went you'll see and

then the next 3 to six months the whole

stock aen and Morman explosion just

happened cuz obviously Pete had been

make making other records in the

meantime which no one had heard and out

nowhere it all of his records were just

hits so I thought okay I've got to

persuade him to write sita's followup

right so I just uh used to turn up at

his Studio literally every single day

and uh make tea um sit in the studios

blah blah blah and they were so busy

they didn't really notice me and after

about a year and a half Pete was in the

studio and he turns he go why are you

always here and I said well I'm trying

to work out how you do it and he went

I'm not paying you I said I I don't want

to get paid I just I want you to one day

write her followup

followup

and uh a few months after that I was in

my office I get a phone call I've got

you hit mate and I got cab went down to

his studio and he played me the demo of

Toy Boy and I thought that's going to

be a gigantic record for her

internationally as well I could feel it

um and Pete you know made it everything

because Pete again I mean Pete will

pretend unlike me he'll oh of course I

know how to produce records blah blah

blah he may do but Pete's skill is I've

always described Pete as as the best DJ

in the world he would he could go to any

city in England at one in the morning

and he would know instinctively what

records to play to the audience that

were in that venue and he made

everything simple which is you find a

great artist and you you match them with

a great pop record and that was it when

you got that job at BMG one of the

things that I read was that you were

really focused on television which was

unusual television as an outlet for the

music and as a distribution platform to

make the music successful which is

unusual at that time to think about

television why did you think about

television and why were you pushing that

upon your bosses at BMG I took the view

it didn't matter to

me uh what the record was as long as it

sold a lot of Records

Records

so uh I it just occurred to me one day I

forget what it was it might have

been I think it was the Wrestling

Federation or something um someone told

me they'd sold out uh Wembley Stadium

you know the the American wrestlers in

WWF yeah yeah in um 880,000 seats in

like 27 minutes and I'm like what and so

I learned a bit more about them you know

they're selling everything and I'm

thinking actually their fans are so

crazy about them they'll buy a they'll

buy an album so I met with them and I

said have you ever considered doing this

and they went no and I said well

I'll uh pay you X as an advance I phoned

up Pete Waterman I how do you fancy Mak

an album full of wrestles I'll do it

okay instantly he just got it and um we

we got all we flew all these wrestlers

over from America they all turned up as

their characters it was hysterical The

Undertaker Hulk Hogan you name it they

were all there and uh uh my boss at the

time was so desperate for me not to do

this she actually got down on her knees

seriously and was praying said look

Simon I am begging you not to do this

because it's going to be such a

catastrophic failure and I'm like what

I'm doing it I just don't see don't

understand why you don't get it um have

you felt like that a lot in your career

where you feel like you can see

something others can't because you're

thinking more from first principles

there you're thinking they sold out an

arena they have an avid fan base we can

attach music to an avid fan base equals

hit yeah you've summed it up very

eloquently and that is exactly it

however and you know this what is very

straightforward to us is not

straightforward to other people they thing

thing thinking

thinking

you he's gone completely

mad I mean no but I'm thinking yeah but

you're not a seven-year-old boy you know

this is who's going to buy the record

you know this is somebody who's going to

buy board game or blah or you know uh

seral with the wrestlers on it whatever

you know I did it with the Power Rangers

Zig and zag I didn't care as long as it sold

sold

records um

one that's it it's brilliant oh my God

we had so much fun doing this we really

really really did

did [Music]

[Music]

um uh and you know what was interesting

is actually when I made the

video I I kind of turned myself into a

kid again because I you sort of have to

believe it for it to work you know

because I I treated it as if this was a

serious record the record had to be a

great record doesn't this go back to

what you said earlier on about being

able to embody The Listener consumer

yeah yeah because your boss at the

record label there was saying no this is

not how it's done this is not what we do

here whereas you're thinking again from

the mind of a seven-year-old or an

eight-year-old and that's hard um yeah

well I didn't think I I thought

logically it made a lot of sense I used

to sit in these A&R depart um meetings

with really really serious anr people

who would literally go bright red with

anger when I would play them something

like this you're making a mockery at

this label and the music business is

like well who cares it's number one in

the charts in 28

countries um I just didn't understand

why people would take it so seriously

and this so millions and millions copies

you saw millions of copies for a

wrestling album yeah using a passionate

fan base as the and and and you know

what it was fun it actually was a fun

project um and when I worked um at BMG I

got to know a lot of the people in who

worked in the Tey sales department um

and these were the girls who would

literally get uh uh orders from the

record shops and I got to know all of

them and they were really really fun

people and uh but they they were like

the back background you know but they

were I used to call them the punters you

know they completely got it and I always

used to say if you hear

anything just let me know you know if is

there a demand for something I always

just I just want to know what's going on

every day and one particular day uh I

said anything happening this morning and

they went yeah uh we're getting a lot of

calls about

um um something that was s sung on

soldier soldier last night so anyway cut

a long story short um I tracked down

Robson and Jerome and I said hi I'm

Simon Cal blah blah blah um I kind of

got Jerome to say yes Robson just wasn't

having it so I was like a stalker I

would not let it go I got hold of his

parents uh everyone his friends I mean

to the point I think I got a legal

letter saying can you stop harassing my

client and it's like well when he says

yes I'll stop harassing him um and

eventually he agreed to a meeting um and

I'm so excited uh I'm in the cab going

to the meeting and then I suddenly went

Christ I don't know what he looks like

cuz never watched the show um what do I

do so and we were meeting in this wine

bar or something so I just walk in and

I'm like hi I'm

Simon and then his hand shot up Robson

I'm hi and we sit down I said here's the

deal I'll pay you both £50,000 each to

go into the recording studio lay down

your vocals and if you say no you keep

50 Grand each and he looked to me are

you serious I me yeah

yeah

so literally the following day they said

right we'll do it thinking we're about

to make 50 Grand each for a day's work

and we're never going to put the record out

out

so uh I get them in as quickly as

possible and uh I get a phone call from

Robson I want to see you so oh dear so I

walk in did laay down the vocals

and I said' what the problem and he goes

you are a complete seword and I went why

he said because you knew exactly what

was going to happen didn't you and I

don't know what you're talking about he

said yes you

do he said Put it on and they played me

the record and they both realized at

that moment the record was going to be a

hit record and I kind of forced them

into doing it and they were happy and

angry at the same time for two years

they were they were the biggest selling

artists in the UK I mean they they

outsold Oasis every bomb really it was

absolutely I cannot tell you we had so

we couldn't make enough records we sold

so many records and this was this

particular track was number one for I

think seven or eight weeks or something

yeah something at the time CRA number

one I mean I think all their records

went to number one it was actually quite

incredible um and that was probably the

thing that really cemented this thing

about my my career which

was absolutely trust your gut um go

completely in an unconventional way and

and that more than anything else made me

realize the power TV because also when I

eventually did see the episode and I saw

how it was cut and the story line and

just how everything worked and why there

was such a demand for that record it was

wow that's that's a great lesson but

Simon what about if your gut is wrong

because you've worked with people that

trust their gut and they're continually

wrong that they just don't have it they

just don't have it right yeah whether

they're musicians or they're an anrs you

know um there'll be a lot of people

listening now that are like okay Simon

said trust my taste trust my gut just go

for it

and then in reality they you know it's

it's a question of like self-awareness I

guess which is which is difficult well I

I can relate to what is happening to a

lot of people in the music business

right now which is the frustration they

must feel which is I'm

talented I've uploaded my

music and I'm not getting anywhere what

do I do next and I I know what this that

feeling is is and what I decided to do

was why don't I go with a slightly

different direction from everybody else

I don't want to be part of the herd if I

follow everyone else I'm just going to

be a sheep and I don't want to be a

sheep I'd rather be somebody slightly

unusual but successful rather than safe

cool whatever so I always say

particularly today you've got to make

noise a the noise and that means you

know do your research you know if if

you're going to cover a song don't copy

the original you know find a song that

could have been written 12 months ago

but actually was written 30 years ago uh

and rearrange the song do something

different with it you know there's so

many things you can do um which are

different to what other people are doing

and because that really is about getting

your the your first step step on the

ladder which is prove that you can make

some noise amongst everybody else um and

I do know what that feeling of

frustration felt like however it's also

about trusting your gut as well when you

make noise amongst the noise there's a

cost and you talked a little bit about

the cost of that it's the skepticism

it's the negativity it's the criticism

it's the get back in line and a lot of

people especially if they weren't

rebellious kids that had a problem with

authority and such can't can't deal with straying from the conventional path

straying from the conventional path where other people have walked the

where other people have walked the blueprint how things have always been

blueprint how things have always been done you have to go through the Thorns

done you have to go through the Thorns through the bushes yeah yeah and it

through the bushes yeah yeah and it takes a certain type of Rebel which one

takes a certain type of Rebel which one of which is that in front of me that is

of which is that in front of me that is willing to go through the thorns in life

willing to go through the thorns in life yeah and don't be afraid of what other

yeah and don't be afraid of what other people say about you for doing that you

people say about you for doing that you know because you know when people people

know because you know when people people say it's not cool or whatever well who

say it's not cool or whatever well who defines what is cool or what isn't cool

defines what is cool or what isn't cool you know this is just about you your

you know this is just about you your career uh your passion um and if other

career uh your passion um and if other people you know mock you for being

people you know mock you for being different then it I would rather be

different then it I would rather be mocked for being different than being

mocked for being different than being safe that would just B bore me I've been

safe that would just B bore me I've been called so many terrible things from

called so many terrible things from serious people in the music business but

serious people in the music business but it

it just doesn't really matter you know the

just doesn't really matter you know the ever did it ever bother you um is it a

ever did it ever bother you um is it a muscle you've had to train do you know

muscle you've had to train do you know the only thing that bothered me was like

the only thing that bothered me was like I said when I first tried to get my

I said when I first tried to get my record played on radio one and I saw the

record played on radio one and I saw the process and I thought this is an this

process and I thought this is an this this is something I can't change I

this is something I can't change I cannot change a stuffy old producer's

cannot change a stuffy old producer's mind about liking a record he knows

mind about liking a record he knows nothing about so I have to find a way to

nothing about so I have to find a way to force that person to play the record and

force that person to play the record and the way I can do that is to get it into

the way I can do that is to get it into the charts so I have to find a way to

the charts so I have to find a way to get it into the charts that forces them

get it into the charts that forces them to play the record on the top 40

to play the record on the top 40 countdown that's always what I had in my

countdown that's always what I had in my head um in other words if you really

head um in other words if you really really believe in it and the

really believe in it and the conventional path isn't open to you then

conventional path isn't open to you then you've got to go right then how do we

you've got to go right then how do we navigate a slightly different path

navigate a slightly different path um that eventually gets us what we want

um that eventually gets us what we want let's not go the the obvious route and

let's not go the the obvious route and you know that I'm not going to lie every

you know that I'm not going to lie every time I do anything new there's always

time I do anything new there's always part of the thrill is it may not

part of the thrill is it may not work um and you know every time I I I

work um and you know every time I I I film a series bgt AGT whatever I'm

film a series bgt AGT whatever I'm filming every year there is one day

filming every year there is one day where i'm like it's over it's over I

where i'm like it's over it's over I hate the ax I'm bored

hate the ax I'm bored uh uh that's it and then the following

uh uh that's it and then the following day I'm like my God I love this show so

day I'm like my God I love this show so much I mean I so up and down like that

much I mean I so up and down like that because I I can't fake how I feel you

because I I can't fake how I feel you know when when I'm bored when I'm

know when when I'm bored when I'm miserable I it really shows I I and when

miserable I it really shows I I and when I'm happy then you know I'm happy you

I'm happy then you know I'm happy you guys may have heard our most recent news

guys may have heard our most recent news the launch of flight Studio which is our

the launch of flight Studio which is our brand new podcast in media technology

brand new podcast in media technology company as we scale this new company we

company as we scale this new company we also need to scale our team and my first

also need to scale our team and my first Port of Call for hiring across flight

Port of Call for hiring across flight Studio has been LinkedIn jobs who are a

Studio has been LinkedIn jobs who are a sponsor of this podcast we're hiring for

sponsor of this podcast we're hiring for around 30 to 60 roles right now and

around 30 to 60 roles right now and Linkedin has been me and my team's goto

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intuitive smooth and super efficient LinkedIn has helped me and my team

LinkedIn has helped me and my team Source professionals we can't get

Source professionals we can't get anywhere else even those who aren't

anywhere else even those who aren't actually searching for jobs right now

actually searching for jobs right now but might be open into the perfect role

but might be open into the perfect role with us in a given month over 70% of

with us in a given month over 70% of LinkedIn users don't visit other leading

LinkedIn users don't visit other leading job websites they visit LinkedIn so if

job websites they visit LinkedIn so if you're not looking on LinkedIn you're

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giving the D CEO Community a free LinkedIn job post head to linkedin.com

LinkedIn job post head to linkedin.com doac now and let me know how you get on

doac now and let me know how you get on terms and conditions apply I've got

terms and conditions apply I've got another single here that's a single but

another single here that's a single but it's part of an album that do you

it's part of an album that do you remember this

remember this one oh yeah yeah Westlife so you're sort

one oh yeah yeah Westlife so you're sort of I think 39 years old um and your band

of I think 39 years old um and your band Westlife their album hits number one

Westlife their album hits number one yeah and you know what this is

yeah and you know what this is uh uh my dad passed away uh right at

uh uh my dad passed away uh right at this time as well so this was a real

this time as well so this was a real Bittersweet time for me

Bittersweet time for me because my dad he never knew this but my

because my dad he never knew this but my dad was amazing at spotting hit records

dad was amazing at spotting hit records you know I would play him certain things

you know I would play him certain things I was making

I was making oh bless you AF Pho of him

oh bless you AF Pho of him here

yeah he uh when I when I first started to have

uh when I when I first started to have some success and my records went number

some success and my records went number one he he was so proud um and he again

one he he was so proud um and he again when I signed this band he said

when I signed this band he said I think they were going to be huge for

I think they were going to be huge for you Simon really yeah and but this was a

you Simon really yeah and but this was a really crazy story about where how we

really crazy story about where how we signed the band because uh Louie Walsh

signed the band because uh Louie Walsh was always calling me uh uh I've got the

was always calling me uh uh I've got the best band in the world I've got the best

best band in the world I've got the best B and I okay Louie

B and I okay Louie okay I'll come to Dublin I went to

okay I'll come to Dublin I went to Dublin he showcases this band I I

Dublin he showcases this band I I absolutely cannot bear them and I said

absolutely cannot bear them and I said this is never going to work they just

this is never going to work they just don't look right Louie I don't think I I

don't look right Louie I don't think I I just the answ is no I think a couple of

just the answ is no I think a couple of them are

them are okay you're wrong I said okay fine I'm

okay you're wrong I said okay fine I'm wrong but I'm not signing them and then

wrong but I'm not signing them and then three months later he calls me and he

three months later he calls me and he goes um I've taking your advice uh will

goes um I've taking your advice uh will you fly back I'm like okay so I fly

you fly back I'm like okay so I fly back uh they start the showcase for me

back uh they start the showcase for me within 30 seconds I said I'm in

within 30 seconds I said I'm in du uh you'll hear from my lawyer do you

du uh you'll hear from my lawyer do you want to hear anymore nope I I can see it

want to hear anymore nope I I can see it they sound great they look great blah

they sound great they look great blah blah blah we signed them and then a

blah blah we signed them and then a month later it turns out that he has

month later it turns out that he has died one of the guy's hair blonde to

died one of the guy's hair blonde to sneak back into the

sneak back into the band uh and that's Shane because when

band uh and that's Shane because when when we uh auditioned them the second

when we uh auditioned them the second time they all have blonde hair I don't

time they all have blonde hair I don't know why that made a difference but uh

know why that made a difference but uh it it's a typical Louis story um they

it it's a typical Louis story um they still succeeded though they did

still succeeded though they did fantastically well yeah and in fact I

fantastically well yeah and in fact I think we still have the record

think we still have the record of uh for I think it was their first

of uh for I think it was their first seven singles went to number one and I

seven singles went to number one and I don't think that's ever happened again

don't think that's ever happened again you described that moment as as

you described that moment as as Bittersweet um in your book I I read

Bittersweet um in your book I I read that you called home to tell your sort

that you called home to tell your sort of family that yeah

of family that yeah this album had gone to number one yeah

this album had gone to number one yeah and the news that you got back was that

and the news that you got back was that your father had passed away from a heart

your father had passed away from a heart attack yeah yeah I I went to Germany to

attack yeah yeah I I went to Germany to this um big conference and

this um big conference and um uh you know I I did quite a big

um uh you know I I did quite a big presentation on on the group and and the

presentation on on the group and and the reaction in the room was huge and so and

reaction in the room was huge and so and I I I I I also was hearing the record

I I I I I also was hearing the record was really selling and and uh and I

was really selling and and uh and I called and I could just tell something

called and I could just tell something wasn't

wasn't right

right and I I think someone said to my mom

and I I think someone said to my mom don't tell Simon while he's there and

don't tell Simon while he's there and then I phon back and she told me and I'm

then I phon back and she told me and I'm like God I can't believe that because I

like God I can't believe that because I genuinely at that point in my life I

genuinely at that point in my life I just believed my parents are going to

just believed my parents are going to live forever I mean it was that um and

live forever I mean it was that um and yeah it was

yeah it was it was

it was tough

um however I do believe in God and I do

however I do believe in God and I do believe

believe um uh because the hardest thing when you

um uh because the hardest thing when you lose your parents is you you can't even

lose your parents is you you can't even think about them afterwards because it's

think about them afterwards because it's too difficult you know everything is and

too difficult you know everything is and then after a while it's like when I have

then after a while it's like when I have a question in my mind

a question in my mind I do talk to them in my mind what would

I do talk to them in my mind what would you do and I know what they would say so

you do and I know what they would say so that that I really do still believe

that that I really do still believe they're with me but that was very

they're with me but that was very Bittersweet moment you know um and and

Bittersweet moment you know um and and probably you know that you

probably you know that you know I would have swapped everything I'd

know I would have swapped everything I'd succeeded you know to kept him around

succeeded you know to kept him around you know

you know um uh

and all the things that you know he taught me over the years it all

taught me over the years it all just you

just you know it was the longest trip home from

know it was the longest trip home from America you know that that flight was it

America you know that that flight was it was it was

bad it's a credit to the man

man yeah and you know like I said look thank

yeah and you know like I said look thank God you know he he he was very wise and

God you know he he he was very wise and he he did give me a Good Steer um

and like I a lot of things that still do now I still think of what would my dad

now I still think of what would my dad say you know uh CU he only lost his

say you know uh CU he only lost his temper with me once and boy when he lost

temper with me once and boy when he lost it it was like I don't want to go there

it it was like I don't want to go there again but you know he he never hit me he

again but you know he he never hit me he you nothing like that you know but he

you nothing like that you know but he raised his voice once at me and that was

raised his voice once at me and that was enough you know but he was very when he

enough you know but he was very when he was angry at you you knew it um but I

was angry at you you knew it um but I also you know I think he would have got

also you know I think he would have got a real kick out of seeing me on a TV

a real kick out of seeing me on a TV show I know he would have just found the

show I know he would have just found the whole thing really really funny he

whole thing really really funny he didn't see you on a TV show no no no um

didn't see you on a TV show no no no um that came a few few years later um

that came a few few years later um um uh but you know at

um uh but you know at least uh he'd seen me you know succeed

least uh he'd seen me you know succeed you know and that meant as much to him I

you know and that meant as much to him I know as it did to me does the the

know as it did to me does the the purpose and the meaning of all the work

purpose and the meaning of all the work you're doing change when you lose

you're doing change when you lose someone who is so Central to um why you

someone who is so Central to um why you are where you are I'm thinking about

are where you are I'm thinking about your your the sort of

your your the sort of immediate people often describe they

immediate people often describe they understand the nature of what their

understand the nature of what their priorities should have been in their

priorities should have been in their life when they experienced the loss of a

life when they experienced the loss of a parent because you're right we grew up

parent because you're right we grew up and even now it's almost like I think my

and even now it's almost like I think my parents are going to live forever yeah

parents are going to live forever yeah it hasn't crossed my mind I'm living my

it hasn't crossed my mind I'm living my life as if they're going to live forever

life as if they're going to live forever yeah yeah well like I said having gone

yeah yeah well like I said having gone through you know which was no question

through you know which was no question in my losing you know both my parents

in my losing you know both my parents was the hardest thing that ever happened

was the hardest thing that ever happened to me but I can sit here and honestly

to me but I can sit here and honestly look you in the eye now and

look you in the eye now and say cuz everyone says you know when you

say cuz everyone says you know when you lose them you know in time it'll get

lose them you know in time it'll get better and you think no it won't and the

better and you think no it won't and the truth is it does as long as you believe

truth is it does as long as you believe and you have to believe that their

and you have to believe that their presence is still there with you and I

presence is still there with you and I do genuinely believe that with my mom

do genuinely believe that with my mom and dad and

and dad and um oh

um my mom um uh you know she started to get

um uh you know she started to get dementia but you know fortunately you

dementia but you know fortunately you know saw Eric she really wanted me to

know saw Eric she really wanted me to have a kid and she brought him this um

have a kid and she brought him this um uh Brown blanket and uh he still has

uh Brown blanket and uh he still has it

it literally everything is about the brown

literally everything is about the brown blanket you know where's where's my

blanket you know where's where's my brown blanket and he said to

brown blanket and he said to me uh when he was about two or three

me uh when he was about two or three after you know she passed away he says

after you know she passed away he says he just looked up uh at the sky one

he just looked up uh at the sky one night and he said I'm thinking about uh

night and he said I'm thinking about uh Grandpa Eric and Julie and it was just

Grandpa Eric and Julie and it was just the way he said it it was like gosh why

the way he said it it was like gosh why would you say that now and and that's

would you say that now and and that's when I genuinely really started to

when I genuinely really started to believe they are still somehow with us

believe they are still somehow with us you know it's it's not a total

um and I think you know maintaining that amazing relationship with both of them

amazing relationship with both of them you know up until the point both of them

you know up until the point both of them passed away they were my best friends

passed away they were my best friends you know uh I could tell them anything

you know uh I could tell them anything we could talk about anything and you

we could talk about anything and you know it's it's how I feel for Eric you

know it's it's how I feel for Eric you know it's just that pure love you know

know it's just that pure love you know they just want the best for you and in

they just want the best for you and in return do you feel the same about them

return do you feel the same about them and it's how I feel about Eric you know

and it's how I feel about Eric you know it's everything starts to be come full

it's everything starts to be come full circle thank God you

know you described the loss of your father um in an interview in your book

father um in an interview in your book where you said it put everything into

where you said it put everything into perspective all the things I thought

perspective all the things I thought were important chart positions doing

were important chart positions doing showcases with the band and everything

showcases with the band and everything else none of it meant anything anymore

else none of it meant anything anymore yeah it's true really yeah genuinely

um uh I can say that because of course I I really really enjoyed every

I I really really enjoyed every successful moment of my career even when

successful moment of my career even when things haven't gone quite a plan there's

things haven't gone quite a plan there's still a story you know or something to

still a story you know or something to be learned from

it that combined Joy versus the devastation you feel when you lose

devastation you feel when you lose someone it's there is you know it's it's

someone it's there is you know it's it's it's it really is meaningless your life

it's it really is meaningless your life really seemed to change drastically when

really seemed to change drastically when Eric was born yes I think that's even

Eric was born yes I think that's even like a bit of an understatement because

like a bit of an understatement because yeah when I speak to your team

yeah when I speak to your team about Simon pre Eric they describe a man

about Simon pre Eric they describe a man that is a workaholic to say the least I

that is a workaholic to say the least I was reading about you staying up till

was reading about you staying up till 8:00 a.m. in the morning frequently to

8:00 a.m. in the morning frequently to work and just this absolute obsession

work and just this absolute obsession with detail and working Sunday Saturday

with detail and working Sunday Saturday yeah calling people at all hours

um free Eric Simon give me a true reflection of that man if I was a fly on

reflection of that man if I was a fly on the wall in his life what was what was I

the wall in his life what was what was I seeing every

seeing every day well I think particularly when I

day well I think particularly when I lost my mom

lost my mom um uh I just was on a downward spiral at

um uh I just was on a downward spiral at that point you know it was like uh I

that point you know it was like uh I lost everyone

lost everyone you know you know I I've lost my my my

you know you know I I've lost my my my parent this finality now and what I said

parent this finality now and what I said about the material things I've got

about the material things I've got everything just meant nothing at that

everything just meant nothing at that point I I was desperately unhappy um I

point I I was desperately unhappy um I wasn't particularly enjoying my work and

wasn't particularly enjoying my work and I just thought you know what I'm just

I just thought you know what I'm just going to become a vampire then and I

going to become a vampire then and I would work through till 7:00 8:00 in the

would work through till 7:00 8:00 in the morning um

morning um I would wake up at 2: or 3: in the

I would wake up at 2: or 3: in the afternoon and I actually got addicted to

afternoon and I actually got addicted to that kind of Lifestyle which was I just

that kind of Lifestyle which was I just led the intensity of it was almost like

led the intensity of it was almost like because of the the loss I'd had I've got

because of the the loss I'd had I've got to find something else to fill it and it

to find something else to fill it and it was I'm just going to become a

was I'm just going to become a ridiculous workaholic and and I was very

ridiculous workaholic and and I was very successful but I wasn't happy uh really

successful but I wasn't happy uh really really wasn't happy

really wasn't happy um uh and it was

like the the expression is this as good as it gets that's how I felt there were

as it gets that's how I felt there were certain people in my life at that point

certain people in my life at that point giving me advice who would

giving me advice who would just shouldn't have been in my life

just shouldn't have been in my life um

um and uh and then when I got the call from

and uh and then when I got the call from Lauren which starts any call starts with

Lauren which starts any call starts with are you sitting down you know what's

are you sitting down you know what's coming next and it was like are you

coming next and it was like are you sitting

sitting down

down yes well and she told me and yes it did

yes well and she told me and yes it did uh uh absolutely uh change changed

uh uh absolutely uh change changed everything in my life I mean it it made

everything in my life I mean it it made me happy again for me it was perfect

me happy again for me it was perfect because you know like I we were talking

because you know like I we were talking earlier on about our childhood you know

earlier on about our childhood you know it was just brilliant it's like

it was just brilliant it's like fantastic I remember the first time I

fantastic I remember the first time I watched Jungle Book with him and I'm

watched Jungle Book with him and I'm looking over and seeing the joy he had

looking over and seeing the joy he had watching that movie it was like oh my

watching that movie it was like oh my God I remember how I felt when I saw the

God I remember how I felt when I saw the Jungle Book he saved you in many

Jungle Book he saved you in many respects didn't he without question

respects didn't he without question without question yeah I I really really

without question yeah I I really really had reached the point where nothing

had reached the point where nothing mattered even to the point where I

mattered even to the point where I almost can't even remember everything

almost can't even remember everything from that period it hit me so hard I was

from that period it hit me so hard I was like because the the hardest thing also

like because the the hardest thing also was being on television as well uh

was being on television as well uh because I'm like God I feel like a clown

because I'm like God I feel like a clown here you know because I'm dying inside

here you know because I'm dying inside and yet you know I've still got to you

and yet you know I've still got to you know do what I'm being paid to do you

know do what I'm being paid to do you know uh as best as I could but you know

know uh as best as I could but you know I I put on a ton of weight uh I was

I I put on a ton of weight uh I was eating Just Junk um it was like

eating Just Junk um it was like if I had got hit by a bus the following

if I had got hit by a bus the following day well I'd be dead but I wasn't

day well I'd be dead but I wasn't worried about anything like that you

worried about anything like that you know was there a Darkest Day in that

know was there a Darkest Day in that period that you recall the whole

period that you recall the whole the whole time was dark yeah um I can

the whole time was dark yeah um I can absolutely relate to uh when people

absolutely relate to uh when people reach the lowest levels you know you

reach the lowest levels you know you possibly can where essentially you know

possibly can where essentially you know being alive doesn't matter anymore you

being alive doesn't matter anymore you know be because you just go what have I

know be because you just go what have I got to live for did you have those

got to live for did you have those thoughts yeah yeah not not thinking I

thoughts yeah yeah not not thinking I want to take my own life but thinking if

want to take my own life but thinking if I if

I if if if something terrible happened I it

if if something terrible happened I it wouldn't bother me you know to myself

wouldn't bother me you know to myself what I what I have learned fortunately

what I what I have learned fortunately is unfortunately we are all going to go

is unfortunately we are all going to go through this and is how we cope with it

through this and is how we cope with it and being able to talk about it you know

and being able to talk about it you know I mean I've spoken you know publicly

I mean I've spoken you know publicly about mental health particularly men's

about mental health particularly men's mental health because there's no

mental health because there's no question uh I've had I do still suffer

question uh I've had I do still suffer from depression at times I've really

from depression at times I've really suffered from depression in the past um

suffered from depression in the past um I am actually

I am actually very thin skinned at times uh uh

very thin skinned at times uh uh particularly when

particularly when someone is disloyal you know that I I

someone is disloyal you know that I I take things like that very very badly I

take things like that very very badly I noticed this cuz I read it's interesting

noticed this cuz I read it's interesting I I read um I was reading loads of

I I read um I was reading loads of Articles and loads of things trying

Articles and loads of things trying trying to understand doing all this

trying to understand doing all this research and the word loyalty came up

research and the word loyalty came up over and over and over again as

over and over and over again as something you would say sometimes an

something you would say sometimes an interviews as being really critically

interviews as being really critically important to you yeah I was thinking why

important to you yeah I was thinking why is of all the people I've ever

is of all the people I've ever interviewed why is loyalty the word that

interviewed why is loyalty the word that he uses when he describes artists he's

he uses when he describes artists he's worked with and bands and Lou Walsh yeah

worked with and bands and Lou Walsh yeah Lou I watched interview where Lou wol

Lou I watched interview where Lou wol said um the thing Simon loves about me

said um the thing Simon loves about me is I'm loyal yeah

is I'm loyal yeah um uh because of

um uh because of um you know a lot of what we spoke about

um you know a lot of what we spoke about today you know my upbringing my working

today you know my upbringing my working life you know nothing was ever handed to

life you know nothing was ever handed to me on a plate you know so um but when

me on a plate you know so um but when people took the time you know like Pete

people took the time you know like Pete Waterman

Waterman um that you know there have been

um that you know there have been fortunately a lot of people over the

fortunately a lot of people over the years who've been amazing have come in

years who've been amazing have come in and helped me achieve because I could

and helped me achieve because I could never have done what I did without you

never have done what I did without you know the people who worked with me over

know the people who worked with me over the years I've just been very lucky in

the years I've just been very lucky in the main 99% of the people have been

the main 99% of the people have been just fantastic um however uh I I yeah I

just fantastic um however uh I I yeah I take it really badly when someone who

take it really badly when someone who you consider to be a friend rewrites The

you consider to be a friend rewrites The Narrative afterwards and they

Narrative afterwards and they become uh because things haven't worked

become uh because things haven't worked out for themselves they have to blame

out for themselves they have to blame somebody else right and it's like but

somebody else right and it's like but we're all in that position yeah you know

we're all in that position yeah you know um there's certain things I can't talk I

um there's certain things I can't talk I would talk to you privately yeah

would talk to you privately yeah privately about why that particular time

privately about why that particular time some other people I was working with um

some other people I was working with um look again on the bright side as long as

look again on the bright side as long as you're happy today which I am thank God

you're happy today which I am thank God and I'm I'm at peace today thank god um

and I'm I'm at peace today thank god um then

then then a lot of the bad things that

then a lot of the bad things that happened

happened previously it's like

previously it's like well that that's your destiny you know

well that that's your destiny you know uh if if the lights had been red instead

uh if if the lights had been red instead of green on a certain day Eric may not

of green on a certain day Eric may not have been conceeded that's how I look at

have been conceeded that's how I look at life you know you your new work life

life you know you your new work life balance um I found it quite interesting

balance um I found it quite interesting you've put some a lot of sort of

you've put some a lot of sort of parameters and boundaries in place in

parameters and boundaries in place in this new with this new post Eric Simon

this new with this new post Eric Simon Cal some of which are you know you don't

Cal some of which are you know you don't work Fridays I read that not really no

work Fridays I read that not really no not really okay um you don't engage in

not really okay um you don't engage in emails after sort of 5:30 6:00 p.m.

emails after sort of 5:30 6:00 p.m. really

really never interesting never have social

never interesting never have social media I I have it but I don't look at

media I I have it but I don't look at it okay so how do you stay away when you

it okay so how do you stay away when you on your phone well you know I don't have

on your phone well you know I don't have a phone you don't have a phone at all

a phone you don't have a phone at all well I have a car phone which I

well I have a car phone which I occasionally use um which is actually an

occasionally use um which is actually an American phone and I swear I don't even

American phone and I swear I don't even know how to use it you don't have a

know how to use it you don't have a mobile phone uh I have one that sits in

mobile phone uh I have one that sits in the car okay uh nine times out of 10 um

the car okay uh nine times out of 10 um I'll use somebody else's phone because I

I'll use somebody else's phone because I don't even know how to work any anymore

don't even know how to work any anymore uh I hate them so much because I tell

uh I hate them so much because I tell you why I I think they're boring it's

you why I I think they're boring it's it's almost like for me it's like having

it's almost like for me it's like having a a toaster with you all the time it's

a a toaster with you all the time it's like it's a toaster and a phone is just

like it's a toaster and a phone is just as boring you know it's like toast is

as boring you know it's like toast is nice and occasionally a telephone calls

nice and occasionally a telephone calls nice but not all the bloody time when

nice but not all the bloody time when did you make that decision to get rid of

did you make that decision to get rid of your phone when I realized

your phone when I realized by not being on it for about 3 or four

by not being on it for about 3 or four months a year I was happy at that time

months a year I was happy at that time um

um um and then when it was like oh God it's

um and then when it was like oh God it's time to turn my phone back on I start to

time to turn my phone back on I start to dread it and then one day uh I thought

dread it and then one day uh I thought I'd lost it and it's oh god I've lost my

I'd lost it and it's oh god I've lost my life and it's oh stop being so dramatic

life and it's oh stop being so dramatic it's a stupid telephone um I don't use

it's a stupid telephone um I don't use 99% of the things on it um and I

99% of the things on it um and I actually really like talking with people

actually really like talking with people like we're talking now I like meeting

like we're talking now I like meeting people and I like talking from a

people and I like talking from a landline if I have to because the sounds

landline if I have to because the sounds nicer as well I think people would be

nicer as well I think people would be pretty shocked to hear that Simon Cal

pretty shocked to hear that Simon Cal doesn't have a phone because you've got

doesn't have a phone because you've got this like business Empire you have to

this like business Empire you have to run you've got all these people these

run you've got all these people these artists these TV you know all these

artists these TV you know all these things how do you nav like my I'd have

things how do you nav like my I'd have some like I'd have like an existential

some like I'd have like an existential crisis if someone told me that I had to

crisis if someone told me that I had to get rid of my phone because I think well

get rid of my phone because I think well my business is going to crumble or or

my business is going to crumble or or obviously it depends what what you do um

obviously it depends what what you do um for what I do weirdly it kind of helps

for what I do weirdly it kind of helps because

because um you hear about the important things

um you hear about the important things in life you you don't hear about the

in life you you don't hear about the unimportant things and that's the best

unimportant things and that's the best way I suppose describing the advantages

way I suppose describing the advantages so when something really serious happens

so when something really serious happens within seconds you'll hear about it when

within seconds you'll hear about it when it's just some piece of Gossip or

it's just some piece of Gossip or something which I'm really not

something which I'm really not interested in uh and someone said did

interested in uh and someone said did you hear about so and so it's like no

you hear about so and so it's like no and I'm not interested um because I'm

and I'm not interested um because I'm not

not so someone has to get hold of you how do

so someone has to get hold of you how do they contact you I always say honestly

they contact you I always say honestly if you want to get hold of me and you

if you want to get hold of me and you know me you'll you'll get a hold of me

know me you'll you'll get a hold of me you just

you just will promise you really will you will

will promise you really will you will get a hold of me um uh obviously you

get a hold of me um uh obviously you know I I I have um pa um I have a

know I I I have um pa um I have a partner um I have friends um how does

partner um I have friends um how does she get hold of you uh she calls me at

she get hold of you uh she calls me at home and I mean driv are crazy but uh

home and I mean driv are crazy but uh what what would you say to the work

what what would you say to the work holics out there including me that

holics out there including me that haven't quite yet had life teach us the

haven't quite yet had life teach us the hard

way oh my God I don't know where to start like what would you say to Simon

start like what would you say to Simon at 31 years old which is how old I am s

at 31 years old which is how old I am s at 31 well I would say work

at 31 well I would say work out genuinely from from the the good

out genuinely from from the the good things that have

things that have happened how much time are you spending

happened how much time are you spending time on where your gut is telling you

time on where your gut is telling you this isn't worth the effort and but your

this isn't worth the effort and but your ego is sort of saying but it's your idea

ego is sort of saying but it's your idea so it must work there are always going

so it must work there are always going to be moments where you have made the

to be moments where you have made the wrong decision and sometimes it's

wrong decision and sometimes it's bailing out earlier than you should uh

bailing out earlier than you should uh rather just let's just hang on to that

rather just let's just hang on to that or um also understanding that certainly

or um also understanding that certainly when you're doing something creative uh

when you're doing something creative uh I believe that you can only really be

I believe that you can only really be creative when you're not tired I'm

creative when you're not tired I'm certainly at my best when I slept well

certainly at my best when I slept well um I'm feeling fit um I'm feeling happy

um I'm feeling fit um I'm feeling happy um then I'm in a completely different

um then I'm in a completely different mindset you know I I would because I

mindset you know I I would because I still uh see each episode before it goes

still uh see each episode before it goes out about three or four times so don't

out about three or four times so don't forget these episodes are about the

forget these episodes are about the length of a movie

length of a movie so I'm watching the equivalent of two

so I'm watching the equivalent of two movies a week uh every second every

movies a week uh every second every sound C every audience shot I mean it's

sound C every audience shot I mean it's the the the the focus you've got to give

the the the the focus you've got to give it it's unbelievable um so I think I

it it's unbelievable um so I think I would have said you know what Simon why

would have said you know what Simon why don't you enjoy what you're doing a

don't you enjoy what you're doing a little bit more um is the fifth day

little bit more um is the fifth day going to really make a difference if

going to really make a difference if you're working better on the four days

you're working better on the four days is not really going to make any

is not really going to make any difference it's the truth uh by the way

difference it's the truth uh by the way it's much more fun having a three-day uh

it's much more fun having a three-day uh weekend and the two-day weekend um and

weekend and the two-day weekend um and um it's just stuff like that I suppose

um it's just stuff like that I suppose did you used to think that if other

did you used to think that if other people weren't working at the same

people weren't working at the same tenacity as you they weren't as

tenacity as you they weren't as interested or they you know cuz I'm

interested or they you know cuz I'm thinking about how you now interact with

thinking about how you now interact with the people you work with if back then

the people you work with if back then you working till 8:00 a.m. in the

you working till 8:00 a.m. in the morning I imagine you're dragging a lot

morning I imagine you're dragging a lot of people with you yes I

was love so fun yeah I I I did drag a few people along with me um and I

few people along with me um and I apologize um having said that one thing

apologize um having said that one thing you can't escape is that to be good at

you can't escape is that to be good at anything you got to put the hours it it

anything you got to put the hours it it is hard work I mean look yes people win

is hard work I mean look yes people win the lottery you hear about these crazy

the lottery you hear about these crazy success stories but they are one in

success stories but they are one in literally a billion I mean for me the

literally a billion I mean for me the majority of people I've met uh who

majority of people I've met uh who haven't inherited anything but have just

haven't inherited anything but have just built something on their own they've

built something on their own they've done it because they're they're talented

done it because they're they're talented they've got great instincts and

they've got great instincts and importantly they have really really put

importantly they have really really put the hours in uh because if somebody you

the hours in uh because if somebody you know comes to work for me at say 21

know comes to work for me at say 21 years old and says you know 5:30 right

years old and says you know 5:30 right I'm off and don't bother calling me on

I'm off and don't bother calling me on the weekend I'm going to go well I I'm

the weekend I'm going to go well I I'm not going to bet the house on you you

not going to bet the house on you you know uh I when I was younger genuinely I

know uh I when I was younger genuinely I didn't even think about weekends it was

didn't even think about weekends it was like um when I was a runner you know I

like um when I was a runner you know I would do 80 nowadays and loved every

would do 80 nowadays and loved every second of it because for every day I was

second of it because for every day I was doing it I was learning something more

doing it I was learning something more um and then I think you know

um and then I think you know there is a point

there is a point where when hopefully you realize that

where when hopefully you realize that you've kind of got your groove you know

you've kind of got your groove you know what you're doing you're being

what you're doing you're being successful You' got a good team around

successful You' got a good team around you then I think it's a question of okay

you then I think it's a question of okay well then don't kill yourself in the

well then don't kill yourself in the process um I mean seriously um uh find

process um I mean seriously um uh find uh and this is you know going back to uh

uh and this is you know going back to uh to phones you know which is and I'm the

to phones you know which is and I'm the same with emails is if if even if it's

same with emails is if if even if it's great news um and and you get the news

great news um and and you get the news at 7 8:00 at night you can't just go

at 7 8:00 at night you can't just go right I'm going to sleep now because

right I'm going to sleep now because your brain's going to go into overdrive

your brain's going to go into overdrive and I think you know getting good sleep

and I think you know getting good sleep is crucial absolutely crucial uh you

is crucial absolutely crucial uh you hear about these people who survive and

hear about these people who survive and 4 hour sleep at night like how you know

4 hour sleep at night like how you know I need like 10 hours if possible

I need like 10 hours if possible possible I really believe that sleep is

possible I really believe that sleep is the best medicine your body can have and

the best medicine your body can have and the ability to be able to sleep

the ability to be able to sleep peacefully you know uh that's really

peacefully you know uh that's really really important imagine if old Simon

really important imagine if old Simon had you say that he'd be like yeah

had you say that he'd be like yeah [Laughter]

[Laughter] right you said don't kill yourself in

right you said don't kill yourself in the process but 2020 you had a very very

the process but 2020 you had a very very serious accident yeah which was

serious accident yeah which was unfortunate

unfortunate at the time of the pandemic so we're all

at the time of the pandemic so we're all trapped inside anyway you were on a

trapped inside anyway you were on a electric motorbike where you had an

electric motorbike where you had an accident and broke your back in three

accident and broke your back in three places you had a very intense six-hour

places you had a very intense six-hour surgery which included having a metal

surgery which included having a metal rod put into your back to stabilize it

rod put into your back to stabilize it um and according to all the accounts

um and according to all the accounts that I've heard you were very lucky to

that I've heard you were very lucky to be alive yeah yeah yeah actually yeah uh

be alive yeah yeah yeah actually yeah uh it was pretty bad um I think that's an

it was pretty bad um I think that's an understat what I've heard uh again there

understat what I've heard uh again there is a silver lining uh

is a silver lining uh because I wasn't fit prior I thought I

because I wasn't fit prior I thought I was fit I looked okay but I wasn't fit

was fit I looked okay but I wasn't fit uh I I was really getting up even though

uh I I was really getting up even though I changed my hours I was still getting

I changed my hours I was still getting up going straight to the telephone and I

up going straight to the telephone and I would sit by that telephone for hours

would sit by that telephone for hours and hours and hours and I really wasn't

and hours and hours and I really wasn't getting the steps and I wasn't eating

getting the steps and I wasn't eating properly and all this kind of stuff um

properly and all this kind of stuff um so once I

so once I um you know I I it was a bad accident

um you know I I it was a bad accident and I knew it was bad the second it

and I knew it was bad the second it happened uh and and the recovery was

happened uh and and the recovery was pretty difficult however the I had a

pretty difficult however the I had a fantastic nurse and she literally she

fantastic nurse and she literally she was like you a you know how a cuckoo

was like you a you know how a cuckoo just pushes the bird out she just one

just pushes the bird out she just one day said to me just get out into your

day said to me just get out into your garden and even if you can walk 20 Paces

garden and even if you can walk 20 Paces just do it and I did it and it was hard

just do it and I did it and it was hard and then I just built up built up built

and then I just built up built up built up and then I started to build up my

up and then I started to build up my step count over time and then when I

step count over time and then when I really had to put the proper steps in

really had to put the proper steps in per day my feet were just like for like

per day my feet were just like for like ragged because they weren't used to

ragged because they weren't used to walking so it was weird if I if I had to

walking so it was weird if I if I had to go back in time again to get to where I

go back in time again to get to where I am today I would have gone through that

am today I would have gone through that again as bad as it was the up side was

again as bad as it was the up side was worth it because if I hadn't broken my

worth it because if I hadn't broken my back I don't think I would have ever

back I don't think I would have ever realized how unfit I really really was

realized how unfit I really really was you spoke about because the pandemic is

you spoke about because the pandemic is an interesting time to have a like

an interesting time to have a like debilitating injury like that because

debilitating injury like that because you're trapped inside as it is when you

you're trapped inside as it is when you have a back injury or any severe injury

have a back injury or any severe injury like that you're immobilized yeah and

like that you're immobilized yeah and all of this has a really significant

all of this has a really significant impact on your mental health because

impact on your mental health because I've sat here with people who have had a

I've sat here with people who have had a back injury like Craig David I remember

back injury like Craig David I remember him telling me the darkest depression he

him telling me the darkest depression he had in his life life was when he injured

had in his life life was when he injured his back and couldn't move Much Anymore

his back and couldn't move Much Anymore yeah and how that has a knock on effect

yeah and how that has a knock on effect of all things but then you have the

of all things but then you have the pandemic as well which is keeping you

pandemic as well which is keeping you indoors and I heard you were you're in

indoors and I heard you were you're in inside for a long period of time because

inside for a long period of time because of that injury because of the pandemic

of that injury because of the pandemic um you stayed in your your house there

um you stayed in your your house there for a long time was it almost a year or

for a long time was it almost a year or something crazy near a year what was if

something crazy near a year what was if I was a fly on the wall in in that house

I was a fly on the wall in in that house during that time what would I have seen

during that time what would I have seen well again the hard really the hardest

well again the hard really the hardest thing was uh uh cuzz you know the guy

thing was uh uh cuzz you know the guy had

had to it got so bad I had to sign a form

to it got so bad I had to sign a form you know just before I had the operation

you know just before I had the operation which was you know if this doesn't work

which was you know if this doesn't work out uh will you allow us to switch to

out uh will you allow us to switch to the machine off I'm like well that's

the machine off I'm like well that's encouraging just before I'm about to go

encouraging just before I'm about to go under um so I'm thinking God this could

under um so I'm thinking God this could be that's this could be it um but I was

be that's this could be it um but I was in so much pain I was just thinking just

in so much pain I was just thinking just please please just get me out of this

please please just get me out of this pain and and

pain and and it the first three days afterwards I was

it the first three days afterwards I was like actually it's painful but not as

like actually it's painful but not as bad as I thought and the doctor said

bad as I thought and the doctor said yeah you've got pain receptors in your

yeah you've got pain receptors in your spine right now they're going to wear

spine right now they're going to wear off in a couple of days get ready and

off in a couple of days get ready and when they wore off it was like whoa it

when they wore off it was like whoa it was unbelievable um and

was unbelievable um and then I'm on all these uh painkilling

then I'm on all these uh painkilling drugs blah blah blah and do you know

drugs blah blah blah and do you know what I'm doing I'm phoning my

what I'm doing I'm phoning my lawyer saying H where's my will and then

lawyer saying H where's my will and then I'm also trying to sell a show at the

I'm also trying to sell a show at the same time and

same time and fortunately um my my PA knew I was just

fortunately um my my PA knew I was just all all over the place and she was

all all over the place and she was saying um yeah the person you're trying

saying um yeah the person you're trying to get a hold of isn't available right

to get a hold of isn't available right now but you know obviously I was just so

now but you know obviously I was just so delirious I was just all over the place

delirious I was just all over the place for the first three days because after a

for the first three days because after a traumatic injury like that you are but I

traumatic injury like that you are but I had a fantastic surgeon um uh I really

had a fantastic surgeon um uh I really got off the painkillers uh much earlier

got off the painkillers uh much earlier than uh they thought I would like a

than uh they thought I would like a month earlier and that was for me really

month earlier and that was for me really significant and then when I started to

significant and then when I started to put the steps in and getting up to 20

put the steps in and getting up to 20 30,000 steps a day without my feet

30,000 steps a day without my feet falling apart it was like actually it

falling apart it was like actually it was worth it genuinely worth it is this

was worth it genuinely worth it is this when you first went to therapy around

when you first went to therapy around this time it was yeah and and I think it

this time it was yeah and and I think it was probably because it after that

was probably because it after that injury um and all the time I'd had to

injury um and all the time I'd had to think about things I really had a chance

think about things I really had a chance to kind of really think things through

to kind of really think things through and

and go

go uh it it would be actually crazy for me

uh it it would be actually crazy for me not to go to therapy after everything

not to go to therapy after everything I've gone through um and talk to

I've gone through um and talk to somebody who is an expert who you can

somebody who is an expert who you can trust um who can advise you and it's a

trust um who can advise you and it's a bit like really going to the gym you

bit like really going to the gym you know it's like wow you feel great

know it's like wow you feel great afterwards and it's you know you think

afterwards and it's you know you think initially oh it's going to be bit

initially oh it's going to be bit embarrassing how do I start the

embarrassing how do I start the conversation but they're so they're so

conversation but they're so they're so good and they're so well trained at what

good and they're so well trained at what they do it gave

they do it gave me I don't know it just made me feel

me I don't know it just made me feel better in so many ways because stuff

better in so many ways because stuff that used to bother me I would talk to

that used to bother me I would talk to them about and and you almost kind of

them about and and you almost kind of get the answer you know it's going to be

get the answer you know it's going to be but someone needs to tell

but someone needs to tell you other than yourself if that makes

you other than yourself if that makes sense you know the answer but you kind

sense you know the answer but you kind of need someone to validate it yeah um

of need someone to validate it yeah um did you go to the the I've been to

did you go to the the I've been to therapy I've also been to therapy with

therapy I've also been to therapy with my partner do couples therapy every week

my partner do couples therapy every week yeah I've done that which is really

yeah I've done that which is really useful yeah my my God ours would make

useful yeah my my God ours would make the best reality show on the planet keep

the best reality show on the planet keep thinking good idea

thinking good idea seriously um what was the when you went

seriously um what was the when you went to the therapist was it because of how

to the therapist was it because of how you were feeling following the the back

you were feeling following the the back injury and the pandemic or was it just

injury and the pandemic or was it just more broadly that you hadn't processed a

more broadly that you hadn't processed a lot of things throughout the last couple

lot of things throughout the last couple of decades was there a specific issue

of decades was there a specific issue you went with that's a good question I I

you went with that's a good question I I think I I met a few people who had who

think I I met a few people who had who were in the entertainment business and

were in the entertainment business and we spoke a lot about how do you deal

we spoke a lot about how do you deal with this how do you deal with that and

with this how do you deal with that and they all well two people in particular

they all well two people in particular said we went into therapy and and they

said we went into therapy and and they said do have you tried it I went

said do have you tried it I went no they said try it once see how how you

no they said try it once see how how you feel and when I went it was very

feel and when I went it was very interesting because what you realize is

interesting because what you realize is that most of us have actually bottled

that most of us have actually bottled stuff up you know somewhere in our

stuff up you know somewhere in our bodies and it's like a

bodies and it's like a release and and we all need that release

release and and we all need that release because there's something in your brain

because there's something in your brain which you haven't spoken about or

which you haven't spoken about or something that's bothered you and you

something that's bothered you and you don't know who to talk about or whatever

don't know who to talk about or whatever whatever whatever and actually it's not

whatever whatever and actually it's not a weakness if anything it's the strength

a weakness if anything it's the strength to be able to admit that we are all

to be able to admit that we are all vulnerable that we none of us are

vulnerable that we none of us are perfect that we do need help and there

perfect that we do need help and there are people much smarter than us who can

are people much smarter than us who can just help you and why not take advantage

just help you and why not take advantage of that because I promise you I don't

of that because I promise you I don't believe there's a single person in the

believe there's a single person in the world who would go to a great therapist

world who would go to a great therapist and then walk out and go yeah I didn't

and then walk out and go yeah I didn't need that but we all do right uh in the

need that but we all do right uh in the same way we're discovering things about

same way we're discovering things about nutrition and you know uh food and the

nutrition and you know uh food and the importance of that and you know a lot of

importance of that and you know a lot of what we were talking about social media

what we were talking about social media and some of the negativities all these

and some of the negativities all these things you know we we're not programmed

things you know we we're not programmed I don't believe to deal with so much so

I don't believe to deal with so much so so quickly so we've got to find you know

so quickly so we've got to find you know different ways of um not just sorting

different ways of um not just sorting your bodies out but sorting your your

your bodies out but sorting your your your your your mental you know it's not

your your your mental you know it's not even mental health it it's just life you

even mental health it it's just life you know it's that you know just having

know it's that you know just having someone who's

someone who's trained to to to give you better

trained to to to give you better priority

priority other things to think about things you

other things to think about things you don't forgotten about all those kind of

don't forgotten about all those kind of things I learned through doing it has it

things I learned through doing it has it had a big impact on you massive yeah

had a big impact on you massive yeah massive yeah and in fact I I got out of

massive yeah and in fact I I got out of the Habit only because of my schedule

the Habit only because of my schedule and I'm dued back I think in about two

and I'm dued back I think in about two or three weeks time and I literally

or three weeks time and I literally can't wait um because I I I really do

can't wait um because I I I really do think I found someone special his name

think I found someone special his name his name's Justin uh if he's listening

his name's Justin uh if he's listening Justin you are the best I adore you um

Justin you are the best I adore you um and he's I I consider him you know a

and he's I I consider him you know a friend I I really really like him and

friend I I really really like him and respect him sometimes we don't get to

respect him sometimes we don't get to say to people how much we appreciate

say to people how much we appreciate them and all the impact we've had on

them and all the impact we've had on them until they're gone because

them until they're gone because especially as men sometimes we can be a

especially as men sometimes we can be a little well I'm just speaking for myself

little well I'm just speaking for myself here I can uh I can feel a little bit I

here I can uh I can feel a little bit I think how I was raised a little bit H

think how I was raised a little bit H about expressing my emotions

about expressing my emotions yeah so Justin for example what would

yeah so Justin for example what would you say to Justin as in terms of how

you say to Justin as in terms of how he's helped you if he was listening I

he's helped you if he was listening I think he he if we had a list of what's

think he he if we had a list of what's the most important things the top 10

the most important things the top 10 list of

list of priorities he's changed the order of

priorities he's changed the order of what would have been my 1 to 10 he

what would have been my 1 to 10 he shuffled the

shuffled the order so something that might have been

order so something that might have been number eight might become number three

number eight might become number three now um and he simplified my way of

now um and he simplified my way of thinking which is s he said to me Simon

thinking which is s he said to me Simon I think you actually overthink a lot of

I think you actually overthink a lot of things by the way and I'm like actually

things by the way and I'm like actually you got a point I do actually uh and um

you got a point I do actually uh and um a lot of what you know we've been

a lot of what you know we've been talking about

talking about today a lot of this has come from

today a lot of this has come from working with Justin um and and like I

working with Justin um and and like I said having Absolut no embarrassment

said having Absolut no embarrassment what whatsoever about the fact that I

what whatsoever about the fact that I needed it um I think

needed it um I think uh like I said a lot of people in my

uh like I said a lot of people in my opinion do need help full stop at some

opinion do need help full stop at some point in their lives and it is nothing

point in their lives and it is nothing to be embarrassed about it

to be embarrassed about it isn't Eric comes to you and says Dad

isn't Eric comes to you and says Dad you've built an incredible business

you've built an incredible business you've been incredibly successful Dad I

you've been incredibly successful Dad I need some advice I want to be successful

need some advice I want to be successful in my career too I'm planning on doing

in my career too I'm planning on doing something special which I don't know

something special which I don't know what what it is yet dad but I want to be

what what it is yet dad but I want to be successful in when I go into the

successful in when I go into the professional world what do I what what

professional world what do I what what advice would you give me dad um based on

advice would you give me dad um based on the career you've had what are those

the career you've had what are those foundations those fundamentals I'm going

foundations those fundamentals I'm going to say to

to say to him be good at what you do and therefore

him be good at what you do and therefore be patient and learn and the learning

be patient and learn and the learning and the getting there is as enjoyable as

and the getting there is as enjoyable as being there because in my opinion it is

being there because in my opinion it is having gone through both sides uh I've

having gone through both sides uh I've been at my happiest when I'm broke I've

been at my happiest when I'm broke I've been at my unhappiest at times when I've

been at my unhappiest at times when I've been wealthy and I've also been happy

been wealthy and I've also been happy when I've been successful um uh the most

when I've been successful um uh the most important thing is on a Sunday night you

important thing is on a Sunday night you want that feeling of excitement that

want that feeling of excitement that Monday is coming and it's something to

Monday is coming and it's something to look forward to

look forward to uh and that this is what we're supposed

uh and that this is what we're supposed to do in our lives is do something which

to do in our lives is do something which we enjoy and it's not a question

we enjoy and it's not a question of having more than other people or less

of having more than other people or less it's it's irrelevant there's always

it's it's irrelevant there's always people who have less than you and more

people who have less than you and more than you that's not really the the

than you that's not really the the measure of of of your happiness your

measure of of of your happiness your happiness stems from achieving something

happiness stems from achieving something believing in in something um and just

believing in in something um and just loving what you do I'm very lucky

loving what you do I'm very lucky because I still love what I do I mean

because I still love what I do I mean yes there are times I'm like God this is

yes there are times I'm like God this is a long day today or you know it hasn't

a long day today or you know it hasn't been a great day but overall I pinch

been a great day but overall I pinch myself still because I'm I'm fortunate

myself still because I'm I'm fortunate enough that I am able to do something

enough that I am able to do something which I really really love doing I I

which I really really love doing I I love creating things I love thinking of

love creating things I love thinking of things and I also

things and I also like the idea that somehow I'll make it

like the idea that somehow I'll make it happen and even if it takes me 10 years

happen and even if it takes me 10 years if I still have that strong belief

if I still have that strong belief somehow I'll try and make it happen and

somehow I'll try and make it happen and if it doesn't quite work out at least I

if it doesn't quite work out at least I can say well I gave it a shot I'd also

can say well I gave it a shot I'd also say to him don't blame other people if

say to him don't blame other people if it doesn't work out you know you have to

it doesn't work out you know you have to trust your instincts and you have to

trust your instincts and you have to have a strong work e

have a strong work e um but enjoy that and that's why you

um but enjoy that and that's why you know as I said finding something which

know as I said finding something which you're passionate about is is for me

you're passionate about is is for me it's the most important thing more than

it's the most important thing more than anything else and because like I said

anything else and because like I said you know going back to the time when I

you know going back to the time when I was in the post room and an estate agent

was in the post room and an estate agent you know I loved being in the mail room

you know I loved being in the mail room a thousand times more than being an

a thousand times more than being an estate agent it just you know it was a

estate agent it just you know it was a great example you know uh when I you

great example you know uh when I you know change jobs to make more money it

know change jobs to make more money it actually made me more unhappy uh because

actually made me more unhappy uh because I didn't like the people you know hated

I didn't like the people you know hated the job not say all the state agents are

the job not say all the state agents are bad by the way this particular company

bad by the way this particular company at the time might be all right now were

at the time might be all right now were awful then um but um that's what I think

awful then um but um that's what I think uh I would say to anyone I like uh or

uh I would say to anyone I like uh or didn't like uh you know find your

didn't like uh you know find your passion and then try and be the best of

passion and then try and be the best of it Legacy Legacy yeah that's been front

it Legacy Legacy yeah that's been front of mine a few recently hasn't it yeah

of mine a few recently hasn't it yeah yeah it is a lot yeah um and to your

yeah it is a lot yeah um and to your point you know when you are when we're

point you know when you are when we're doing something like this or something

doing something like this or something I've made in the past I'm always

I've made in the past I'm always aware or if I'm editing a clip on a on a

aware or if I'm editing a clip on a on a great contestant I'm very aware that

great contestant I'm very aware that that is their legacy as well and I want

that is their legacy as well and I want to make that clip like perfection in my

to make that clip like perfection in my mind you know I want every second of it

mind you know I want every second of it to be beautiful and cinematic you know

to be beautiful and cinematic you know and because they live on life online

and because they live on life online forever these clips now um but yeah

forever these clips now um but yeah Legacy is I I think about this a lot

Legacy is I I think about this a lot definitely and I think um

definitely and I think um somewhere I read it was a great quote

somewhere I read it was a great quote about I'm going to say this really badly

about I'm going to say this really badly but it's along the lines of of if you

but it's along the lines of of if you live your life with your eyes open wide

live your life with your eyes open wide enough you will eventually find the

enough you will eventually find the person you're looking for I.E my Pete

person you're looking for I.E my Pete wman you know because don't

wman you know because don't think certainly when you're younger that

think certainly when you're younger that you've got all the smarts to do it

you've got all the smarts to do it yourself you know being smart is finding

yourself you know being smart is finding the person who is smarter than you who

the person who is smarter than you who is willing to take you under their wing

is willing to take you under their wing um but to get that person

um but to get that person to take you under their wing you've got

to take you under their wing you've got to show them I'm prepared to put the

to show them I'm prepared to put the work in as

work in as well and if you

could paint the picture of your own legacy the Legacy that Eric will

legacy the Legacy that Eric will remember of Simon Cal what was what is

remember of Simon Cal what was what is that Legacy that you would like to leave

that Legacy that you would like to leave him

him with and I guess the world with oh

well I think uh I like people I mean I genuinely like

I like people I mean I genuinely like people I remember being about six years

people I remember being about six years old and seeing somebody um I think it

old and seeing somebody um I think it was the ideal home

was the ideal home exhibition and uh I oh my God it's so

exhibition and uh I oh my God it's so inser I'm completely Star Struck and I

inser I'm completely Star Struck and I just went over said hi can I have your

just went over said hi can I have your autograph and he went no and I was like

autograph and he went no and I was like I was

I was destroyed and and I I I have never ever

destroyed and and I I I have never ever said no to somebody it drives Lauren and

said no to somebody it drives Lauren and even Eric sometimes crazy cuz I don't

even Eric sometimes crazy cuz I don't care in the middle of dinner or whatever

care in the middle of dinner or whatever I'm doing if someone wants a picture an

I'm doing if someone wants a picture an autograph I I'm I'll always say yes

autograph I I'm I'll always say yes because I take it as a compliment you

because I take it as a compliment you know because it's U they watch something

know because it's U they watch something I've made and and I also know in Reverse

I've made and and I also know in Reverse what it feels like um if someone's rude

what it feels like um if someone's rude to you um because if that's if if if you

to you um because if that's if if if you don't like people you can't do this job

don't like people you can't do this job um so I hope my legacy will be that you

um so I hope my legacy will be that you know I I kind of achieved

know I I kind of achieved everything you know without a head start

everything you know without a head start and I've treated people well I I that's

and I've treated people well I I that's what I would like to think I'll hand

what I would like to think I'll hand over to Eric both of those things

over to Eric both of those things although you have changed your life in

although you have changed your life in many ways Prett extreme extreme ways

many ways Prett extreme extreme ways very extreme ways from the sort of the

very extreme ways from the sort of the pre Eric Simon to the post Eric Simon

pre Eric Simon to the post Eric Simon who has put boundaries and balance in

who has put boundaries and balance in place and is focusing more you know you

place and is focusing more you know you talked about that priority list of 10

talked about that priority list of 10 things with your therapist um it's quite

things with your therapist um it's quite clear in everything I've I've read that

clear in everything I've I've read that number one priority right now is the

number one priority right now is the family yeah and everything is secondary

family yeah and everything is secondary to that that's accurate right it's an

to that that's accurate right it's an accurate yeah yeah it is um but I think

accurate yeah yeah it is um but I think um what concerns me a lot at the moment

um what concerns me a lot at the moment is um and I hope hope things are going

is um and I hope hope things are going to change is that I do see bullying On

to change is that I do see bullying On The Rise um and uh and I think that is

The Rise um and uh and I think that is uh partly due well actually a lot to do

uh partly due well actually a lot to do with social media um I do see

with social media um I do see unfortunately people unhappy because

unfortunately people unhappy because they think they need material things in

they think they need material things in their life to make them happy and look

their life to make them happy and look of course it's it's better to have money

of course it's it's better to have money than not but it's not everything and you

than not but it's not everything and you know like I said I can genuinely say

know like I said I can genuinely say that because i' I've experienced both I

that because i' I've experienced both I preferred it when I had money but I it

preferred it when I had money but I it wasn't the end of the world when I

wasn't the end of the world when I didn't you know and

didn't you know and um so I I

um so I I just I get sad a lot of the times when I

just I get sad a lot of the times when I think about people who think well you

think about people who think well you know I'm not great at school so what am

know I'm not great at school so what am I going to do with my life or I need

I going to do with my life or I need everything think by the age of 21 and or

everything think by the age of 21 and or blah blah blah blah blah it's like

blah blah blah blah blah it's like actually you know what it doesn't have

actually you know what it doesn't have to be that way you know if you really

to be that way you know if you really really do have the patience and like I

really do have the patience and like I said the you might have a friend who's

said the you might have a friend who's got a more flashier job and blah blah

got a more flashier job and blah blah blah but if you if you it for the long

blah but if you if you it for the long Hall you're going to be better off at

Hall you're going to be better off at the end you know it's trying to get that

the end you know it's trying to get that message to people you know I was just

message to people you know I was just thinking then about um One Direction

thinking then about um One Direction fact I'm friends with uh some of the

fact I'm friends with uh some of the boys I say some of the boys one of the

boys I say some of the boys one of the boys from One Direction and they how do

boys from One Direction and they how do you how do you like make them ambitious

you how do you like make them ambitious but at the same time make them not lose

but at the same time make them not lose their mind because because I sat with

their mind because because I sat with Liam and he was he was on the podcast

Liam and he was he was on the podcast and he's he talked about his struggles

and he's he talked about his struggles struggling with all of these things that

struggling with all of these things that the change in his life we all wish and

the change in his life we all wish and dream for that yeah but then the reality

dream for that yeah but then the reality is something that no one can be prepared

is something that no one can be prepared for yeah the brain is not set up in such

for yeah the brain is not set up in such a way to deal with that amount of

a way to deal with that amount of Hysteria yeah around you so has your

Hysteria yeah around you so has your thoughts

thoughts around this changed or evolved based on

around this changed or evolved based on your own experiences as Simon and the

your own experiences as Simon and the things you've been through well

things you've been through well uh personally I think it's better to

uh personally I think it's better to have success than not yeah um what is

have success than not yeah um what is great I mean what I said to the boys and

great I mean what I said to the boys and you know it was quite obvious you know

you know it was quite obvious you know once they were on the show they were

once they were on the show they were going to be really really successful

going to be really really successful with the right records I mean they just

with the right records I mean they just for me they would like the the perfect

for me they would like the the perfect group are they the most successful

group are they the most successful artist you've ever

artist you've ever developed H gosh I I actually don't know

developed H gosh I I actually don't know the answer to that no I mean I know they

the answer to that no I mean I know they were very successful they sold a lot of

were very successful they sold a lot of Records um okay they made a lot of money

Records um okay they made a lot of money um uh I said to them a lot of what we're

um uh I said to them a lot of what we're talking about which is don't ever

talking about which is don't ever complain about Paparazzi cuz they are

complain about Paparazzi cuz they are going to take you pictures

going to take you pictures um don't complain about invasion of

um don't complain about invasion of privacy because people are going to

privacy because people are going to always want to a picture taken with you

always want to a picture taken with you um don't complain about the long hours

um don't complain about the long hours because there are going to be long hours

because there are going to be long hours um so if if none of this if any of this

um so if if none of this if any of this is a problem just do something else I

is a problem just do something else I mean because I promise you all of this

mean because I promise you all of this is going to come with it there'll be

is going to come with it there'll be times where you're going to go my God

times where you're going to go my God this is a gring

this is a gring schedule and oh my God what can't

schedule and oh my God what can't someone just leave me alone for one

someone just leave me alone for one minute because I want I want I want to

minute because I want I want I want to have my dinner uh why are you taking my

have my dinner uh why are you taking my picture that is going to come with the

picture that is going to come with the territory and the truth is it's worth it

territory and the truth is it's worth it it's a very very very it's not even a

it's a very very very it's not even a price toate it just comes with it it's

price toate it just comes with it it's hard work you are going to become well

hard work you are going to become well known um and uh you are going to lose a

known um and uh you are going to lose a lot of your privacy if you want to be an

lot of your privacy if you want to be an accountant you're not going to have any

accountant you're not going to have any of those issues

of those issues it just won't be as much

it just won't be as much fun so you know some people want to be

fun so you know some people want to be accountant some people want a more

accountant some people want a more exciting life um I've always been a huge

exciting life um I've always been a huge fan of bands

fan of bands because it's a much easier way uh first

because it's a much easier way uh first of all I think it's more fun being in a

of all I think it's more fun being in a band than being a solo artist yeah uh

band than being a solo artist yeah uh particular if you like your band mates

particular if you like your band mates um it's a brilliant way to get noticed

um it's a brilliant way to get noticed if you want to become uh a successful

if you want to become uh a successful solo artist like they've all become and

solo artist like they've all become and being in the band was the Catalyst to

being in the band was the Catalyst to that you know I'm about to do it again

that you know I'm about to do it again this year yes I heard about this you're

this year yes I heard about this you're searching for another boy band yeah and

searching for another boy band yeah and I'm doing it because you know right now

I'm doing it because you know right now there

there isn't I don't think a band who has been

isn't I don't think a band who has been as good as One Direction since One

as good as One Direction since One Direction um in my opinion um and if you

Direction um in my opinion um and if you look at the amount of solo artists

look at the amount of solo artists versus bands right now in the world in

versus bands right now in the world in pop music it is unbelievable I mean if

pop music it is unbelievable I mean if you think of Motown and that whole era

you think of Motown and that whole era it was as many bands as there were solo

it was as many bands as there were solo artist so something uh has gone a miss

artist so something uh has gone a miss and the only way I know to put a band

and the only way I know to put a band together is somebody has to audition

together is somebody has to audition them so we just thought you know what if

them so we just thought you know what if I don't do it this I'm going to

I don't do it this I'm going to really regret it so let's just do it um

really regret it so let's just do it um and we're going to document the whole

and we're going to document the whole process so this time uh you're going to

process so this time uh you're going to see exactly what

see exactly what happens uh from the minute we go we're

happens uh from the minute we go we're going to do it to how you logistically

going to do it to how you logistically do it how do you choose the people blah

do it how do you choose the people blah blah blah uh because I think it will be

blah blah uh because I think it will be interesting and and but there's no

interesting and and but there's no safety blank here on this in terms of I

safety blank here on this in terms of I haven't gone to a record label and go

haven't gone to a record label and go and say right I'm doing this will you

and say right I'm doing this will you guarantee me a record deal I've got to

guarantee me a record deal I've got to hope that the band are good enough to

hope that the band are good enough to get a record deal what's the secret

Source people I mean it is personality I mean I think that's the one thing about

mean I think that's the one thing about One Direction is they all had great

One Direction is they all had great personalities and they were just

personalities and they were just interesting people and as uh the first

interesting people and as uh the first time I saw them uh a as a band uh after

time I saw them uh a as a band uh after we asked them to be in a band I was in

we asked them to be in a band I was in Spain and I saw them walking up the

Spain and I saw them walking up the beach and as they're walking up the

beach and as they're walking up the beach everyone's looking around no one

beach everyone's looking around no one ever heard of them at this point and I

ever heard of them at this point and I thought it's unbelievable everyone's

thought it's unbelievable everyone's looking at these five boys as if they're

looking at these five boys as if they're already stars and there was some there

already stars and there was some there was just this glow about them um and

was just this glow about them um and because you know I've had hits with

because you know I've had hits with bands I've had Miss with bands and it

bands I've had Miss with bands and it could be that I was 1% off or I was 80%

could be that I was 1% off or I was 80% off I don't know um but when it doesn't

off I don't know um but when it doesn't work you the there's no there's no money

work you the there's no there's no money in the world that will make something

in the world that will make something that isn't going to work

that isn't going to work work um it's just one of those things

work um it's just one of those things you you just got to hope you get lucky

you you just got to hope you get lucky and find the right people have you got

and find the right people have you got better at I don't know don't know it

better at I don't know don't know it could be that I'm completely useless now

could be that I'm completely useless now um all I know is if I had to trust

um all I know is if I had to trust anyone to do it I would trust me more

anyone to do it I would trust me more than anyone else I would and are you

than anyone else I would and are you waiting for a feeling is it like or is

waiting for a feeling is it like or is there like some kind of data in Ai and

there like some kind of data in Ai and some Excel spreadsheet that ranks them

some Excel spreadsheet that ranks them based on you know these things is a

based on you know these things is a feeling yeah it it it has to be um and

feeling yeah it it it has to be um and this is and this is the difficulty is

this is and this is the difficulty is that you are selling an act to

that you are selling an act to to somebody who I'm not you know your

to somebody who I'm not you know your fans are going to be Prim primarily

fans are going to be Prim primarily teenages um so you've kind of got to

teenages um so you've kind of got to guess what that audience are going to

guess what that audience are going to like uh but don't overthink it because

um I I've seen a lot of people particularly recently put bands together

particularly recently put bands together and they walk out and within one second

and they walk out and within one second I'm thinking all of this is wrong I can

I'm thinking all of this is wrong I can tell that someone's told them what to

tell that someone's told them what to wear I know what their Spiel is going to

wear I know what their Spiel is going to be it's all rehearsed nothing

be it's all rehearsed nothing spontaneous and I'm thinking why does

spontaneous and I'm thinking why does that person whoever's behind the scenes

that person whoever's behind the scenes why can't they let them just be

why can't they let them just be themselves that's why I sit to One

themselves that's why I sit to One Direction which is look I can just give

Direction which is look I can just give you a broad kind of over like I said

you a broad kind of over like I said this is what's going to probably happen

this is what's going to probably happen when you're successful ful

when you're successful ful um uh and then after a few years you're

um uh and then after a few years you're going to want to leave the band that's

going to want to leave the band that's going to happen and blah blah blah blah

going to happen and blah blah blah blah blah oh no no we're going to be friends

blah oh no no we're going to be friends forever I say yeah whatever um um do

forever I say yeah whatever um um do what you like and that was sort of it I

what you like and that was sort of it I just say look when you got a problem

just say look when you got a problem come to me um uh it's really down to you

come to me um uh it's really down to you to make this work uh you've got to love

to make this work uh you've got to love the records you make you've got to

the records you make you've got to influence the records you make you can't

influence the records you make you can't dance so don't try and dance um don't

dance so don't try and dance um don't ever hire a stylist because you've

ever hire a stylist because you've already got great taste um and just be

already got great taste um and just be yourselves and Mo and really really have

yourselves and Mo and really really have fun because there like I said there will

fun because there like I said there will be days where you're going to go oh God

be days where you're going to go oh God I'm really tired I don't like this and

I'm really tired I don't like this and you know no one will leave me alone and

you know no one will leave me alone and then in 10 years time you're going to

then in 10 years time you're going to look back on this and go wow we had a

look back on this and go wow we had a blast

blast could you have predicted I know all the

could you have predicted I know all the boys have done really well in their own

boys have done really well in their own Endeavors but Harry has

Endeavors but Harry has become well he he still is a mega star

become well he he still is a mega star and often with boy bands once they break

and often with boy bands once they break up you know they kind of some of them

up you know they kind of some of them fizzle out and whatever but Harry seems

fizzle out and whatever but Harry seems to have just taken on you know he's

to have just taken on you know he's really managed to find his own Groove

really managed to find his own Groove yeah it appears I always I'm not I'm not

yeah it appears I always I'm not I'm not gonna lie I mean the first time I met

gonna lie I mean the first time I met Harry he sang A Stevie wand song which

Harry he sang A Stevie wand song which talk about pies so I'm not sitting there

talk about pies so I'm not sitting there thinking you're going to become one of

thinking you're going to become one of the most successful artists in the world

the most successful artists in the world in 12 years time I mean no one would

in 12 years time I mean no one would have thought that I just thought you're

have thought that I just thought you're unbelievably charismatic and you're

unbelievably charismatic and you're fun um and the audience are like like

fun um and the audience are like like you and great and then for whatever

you and great and then for whatever reason it didn't work out in my opinion

reason it didn't work out in my opinion uh for them as solo artists you know for

uh for them as solo artists you know for different reasons in that part of the

different reasons in that part of the show and then we just had this idea in

show and then we just had this idea in the moment to put them in a band and

the moment to put them in a band and then like I said you know where I think

then like I said you know where I think pretty much all of them have done great

pretty much all of them have done great is that they've used the the the group

is that they've used the the the group as a vehicle to go where they really

as a vehicle to go where they really want to go yeah in their lives and would

want to go yeah in their lives and would Harry be Harry without One Direction

Harry be Harry without One Direction well none of us could answer that I I I

well none of us could answer that I I I I couldn't tell you um all I know is

I couldn't tell you um all I know is being in the group definitely made it

being in the group definitely made it easier of course and that's why

easier of course and that's why uh I thought interestingly uh about

uh I thought interestingly uh about seven or eight years ago I thought

seven or eight years ago I thought there's not going to be any need for

there's not going to be any need for these shows anymore um because of social

these shows anymore um because of social media and here's the crazy thing is that

media and here's the crazy thing is that the amount of UK artists that have

the amount of UK artists that have broken globally in the last say seven

broken globally in the last say seven years has fallen off a cliff literally

years has fallen off a cliff literally if you think about how many Global

if you think about how many Global artists British have broken globally in

artists British have broken globally in the last seven years

the last seven years it's possibly three which is crazy I I

it's possibly three which is crazy I I can't think of three well

can so um is AI a concern an opportunity does it cross your mind uh I think both

does it cross your mind uh I think both uh I don't think you'll ever beat the

uh I don't think you'll ever beat the real thing yeah having said that um

real thing yeah having said that um it'll happen I mean sooner rather than

it'll happen I mean sooner rather than later I think there already is a

later I think there already is a Japanese artist who doesn't exist and

Japanese artist who doesn't exist and she sells out

she sells out Stadium um

Stadium um so there's no question it's going to

so there's no question it's going to it's going to happen but people are

it's going to happen but people are always going to be more interested in

always going to be more interested in the real thing if you go to a concert

the real thing if you go to a concert you know you want to see those people

you know you want to see those people you want to say I was within touching

you want to say I was within touching distance of that person not something

distance of that person not something that doesn't exist I I would I would

that doesn't exist I I would I would agree to much a big extent I actually

agree to much a big extent I actually think that um a lot of the people are

think that um a lot of the people are actually building AI like Sam Alman the

actually building AI like Sam Alman the other day he said he believes that

other day he said he believes that there's going to be a huge surge in

there's going to be a huge surge in people's demand and desire for Real

people's demand and desire for Real in-person Entertainment and experiences

in-person Entertainment and experiences especially in a world if AI causes a

especially in a world if AI causes a little bit of a displacement in the job

little bit of a displacement in the job market and we have more free time which

market and we have more free time which is what he he's the guy that's building

is what he he's the guy that's building chatu PT he says the we're going to see

chatu PT he says the we're going to see the industry boom around entertainment

the industry boom around entertainment and I've actually got a billionaire

and I've actually got a billionaire friend that lives about 5 minutes from

friend that lives about 5 minutes from here in a penthouse billionaire in

here in a penthouse billionaire in biotech AI everything he's just a super

biotech AI everything he's just a super smart guy and when when I sat with him

smart guy and when when I sat with him he said the same thing to me um he said

he said the same thing to me um he said you know what's going to Boom he said

you know what's going to Boom he said people's need for entertainment yeah in

people's need for entertainment yeah in a world where a lot of the work can be

a world where a lot of the work can be even you know cars being a driver is the

even you know cars being a driver is the biggest employer in the world the

biggest employer in the world the autonomous vehicles that are driving

autonomous vehicles that are driving around San Francisco as taxis now are a

around San Francisco as taxis now are a glimpse of that future so all these

glimpse of that future so all these people that are going to be displaced in

people that are going to be displaced in some way will need will have a lot of

some way will need will have a lot of free time yeah and that will cause us to

free time yeah and that will cause us to be you know maybe live in communes but

be you know maybe live in communes but yeah but also just to really go back to

yeah but also just to really go back to in real life experiences and I did a

in real life experiences and I did a post the other day about this how you

post the other day about this how you see um opposites rise Polar Opposites

see um opposites rise Polar Opposites rise together like digital music surged

rise together like digital music surged vinyl records become a little bit

vinyl records become a little bit popular and bowling alleys and now you

popular and bowling alleys and now you know seeing a surge and these sort of uh

know seeing a surge and these sort of uh Flight Club in these sort of in-person

Flight Club in these sort of in-person experiences because we've become so

experiences because we've become so digitalized and I see entertainment as

digitalized and I see entertainment as one of those things like the

one of those things like the entertainment industry concerts

entertainment industry concerts festivals yeah it's being a nice place

festivals yeah it's being a nice place to run to from sets you no I think

to run to from sets you no I think you're right I think and it's it's a

you're right I think and it's it's a it's a good point you make about the the

it's a good point you make about the the two opposites

two opposites um fast fashion slow fashion we saw that

um fast fashion slow fashion we saw that rise as well what is so fascinating as

rise as well what is so fascinating as well is is is seeing these Brands which

well is is is seeing these Brands which are 50 60 years old suddenly become

are 50 60 years old suddenly become super huge again whether it's Lego

super huge again whether it's Lego whether it's Mario Brothers whether it's

whether it's Mario Brothers whether it's Barbie um because sometimes you know

Barbie um because sometimes you know there's this feeling of um am I just

there's this feeling of um am I just saying things were better because I'm

saying things were better because I'm just getting cranky which is quite

just getting cranky which is quite depressing and then I go actually no

depressing and then I go actually no queen or David Bowie or Elton John were

queen or David Bowie or Elton John were are the best artists of all time I mean

are the best artists of all time I mean George Michael just

George Michael just is um and I don't think there's anybody

is um and I don't think there's anybody in the world as good as George Michael

in the world as good as George Michael today I genuinely don't I wish there was

today I genuinely don't I wish there was and by the way he was one of the nicest

and by the way he was one of the nicest people I'd ever met in my life really

people I'd ever met in my life really yeah but no I think it we're just going

yeah but no I think it we're just going through a very interesting time right

through a very interesting time right now and uh I'm a great believer Embrace

now and uh I'm a great believer Embrace anything that's going to help you um

anything that's going to help you um don't dismiss it but um I still think

don't dismiss it but um I still think you know when again when when I was

you know when again when when I was talking to One Direction I remember

talking to One Direction I remember saying to them our goal is for you to

saying to them our goal is for you to have enough hits that if you ever reform

have enough hits that if you ever reform that you could do Stadium tours that

that you could do Stadium tours that means you got to have about 10 hit

means you got to have about 10 hit singles um uh because that's what people

singles um uh because that's what people want to hear they want to hear the

want to hear they want to hear the hits um and you know if they ever did

hits um and you know if they ever did reform that's exactly what would happen

reform that's exactly what would happen are they going to come back I doubt it

are they going to come back I doubt it you doubt it I doubt it Spice Girls came

you doubt it I doubt it Spice Girls came back Spice Girls came back many years

back Spice Girls came back many years later the one thing I regret is I should

later the one thing I regret is I should have kept the name oh you should have

have kept the name oh you should have owned the name I should have owned the

owned the name I should have owned the name you didn't own the name no who own

name you didn't own the name no who own who's the name they do oh okay that's

who's the name they do oh okay that's the problem could have made an animation

the problem could have made an animation or whatever um but when you give an

or whatever um but when you give an artist the name it's not yours and

artist the name it's not yours and that's my only regret so if you're

that's my only regret so if you're listening I'll buy it back from

listening I'll buy it back from you so they all five we do it as a

you so they all five we do it as a partnership well uh I mean yeah I mean

partnership well uh I mean yeah I mean sure there we go you were there but

sure there we go you were there but that's the only thing I I do regret uh

that's the only thing I I do regret uh because if one of the band members for

because if one of the band members for whatever reason say they don't want to

whatever reason say they don't want to tour it can stop the others touring so

tour it can stop the others touring so if it was me who owned the name it

if it was me who owned the name it wouldn't be a problem you could do a

wouldn't be a problem you could do a tour with three of them so that's what's

tour with three of them so that's what's stopping a tour because they what do

stopping a tour because they what do they all own 205 20% I believe so yes I

they all own 205 20% I believe so yes I mean I can be very naive at times and

mean I can be very naive at times and that was me being very very

that was me being very very naive uh

naive uh so next time that will be part of the

so next time that will be part of the deal I have to earn the

deal I have to earn the name they can still make most of the

name they can still make most of the money but I need to earn the name we

money but I need to earn the name we have a closing tradition on this podcast

have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question

where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who

for the next guest not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for oh so

they're going to be leaving it for oh so the question that's been left for you by

the question that's been left for you by our previous guest was what one decision

our previous guest was what one decision could you make today that would have the

could you make today that would have the most positive impact on your life long

most positive impact on your life long term don't eat sugar

term don't eat sugar really

really yeah

yeah yeah

yeah seriously that's true I can't AR sleep

seriously that's true I can't AR sleep it's not good for you yeah yeah thank

it's not good for you yeah yeah thank you so much

[Music] oh

oh [Music]

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