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Why Smart People Hurt with Eric Maisel | Chad Peevy | YouTubeToText
YouTube Transcript: Why Smart People Hurt with Eric Maisel
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This conversation explores the unique challenges faced by intelligent individuals, particularly in navigating personal meaning, societal pressures, and the complexities of modern life, offering insights into resilience and authentic living.
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Hi, Chad.
>> Dr. Mazelle, how are you?
>> I'm great. Call me Eric, please.
>> Yes, sir. Thank you so much for taking
the time to uh talk to me today. I've
been looking forward to this
conversation well before you said yes to
doing it. So, thank you. Thank you.
Thank you.
>> Well, good. I'm glad I didn't disappoint you.
you.
>> Absolutely not. Absolutely not. So,
we're going to be talking today about
two of the more than 50 books that you
have published. I've heard you say
you've written at least 70, but today
I'm going to talk about two of them.
Redesign your mind and why smart people
hurt. I get the sense, Eric, right now
that a lot of smart people are hurting
and a lot of people a lot of smart
people are really scared and the pains
that smart people experience I think is
intensified by the current political
climate and living during a time when
the anti-intellectuals are in power.
They are attacking institutions of
higher learning. They are trying to shut
down the department of education. They
are trying to defund NPR and PBS.
They're trying to pull books out of
libraries that they don't like. It's
very clear to me that knowledge is under
attack. And I think that smart people
would look at this circumstance and say,
well, if knowledge is under attack, then
the knowledgeable are probably next. And
so I get the sense that a lot of smart
people are scared and in a lot of pain.
And I've heard you talk in other
interviews about identifying yourself as
a resistance fighter. And I was hoping
that you could share with our listeners
today where that idea came from and then
teach us in this moment how we resist.
>> Well, this the latter is really hard. So
let's let's start with the former which
is easy. That's autobiography. I was
born in 1947 right after the end of the
Second World War. I grew up in a mixed
Irish, Italian, and Jewish neighborhood
of Brooklyn. Many of the folks around me
were Holocaust survivors. The idea of
being a resistance fighter was in the
air. It was a well-known concept in that
time. And it settled in me from a very
early age, four, five, six, seven, those
years that that was that was the person
to be. That was the honorable way to
live was as as a resistance fighter.
Simultaneously I had strong beliefs even
at that age about what I thought was
humbug things that I thought were not
true. I thought that religion for
instance was a betrayal of our common
humanity. And seeing the religious Jews
go off to shul and the religious
Catholics go off to church respectively
on their Friday evenings and Saturdays
and Sundays. I just did not understand
why anybody would think that there could
be a god who cared whether you ate on
one set of dishes or another set of
dishes or whether you covered your head
or didn't cover your head. None of that
made sense to me as a young person. So I
thought it was necessary to resist that
even then even though I was in math and
science in my own mind I thought that
I'd be a little physicist or
astrophysicist or something like that.
What I was actually reading were the
existentialists and existential
literature and sart canu at that early
age and had a lot of early understanding
of their ideas about personal
responsibility, freedom, etc. And when I
was 18 years old, I enlisted in the
army. Having flunked out of Brooklyn
College, I knew I was going to be
drafted. So enlisting struck me as an
idea. Whether it was a good idea or a
bad idea struck me as an idea. I also
was kind of sensible enough to enlist to
go to Korea because I thought if I was
in Korea I couldn't be in Vietnam at the
same moment.
>> That turned out to work inside the army.
I found ways to resist that were small
but meaningful. And then I also saw how
to resist would come at a cost. For
instance, there came a moment when I was
in Korea when I had graduated to platoon
sergeant. I was I had a platoon of my
own and one day I went up to the
library. There's a little library on our
compound and I was reading about World
War II again and it struck me that there
was a certain rank above which you were
responsible for the war and below which
you weren't. Like if you were a private
in a war you were not responsible for
that war. As soon as you had some
command responsibility
like being a sergeant then you were
agreeing to the war somehow. That again,
not a brilliant idea, but that was the
idea that popped to my head.
>> So I marched down to the company
commander's office and said, "I I'd like
to be a private again."
>> How did that go?
>> I think that exactly. He said he
laughed. He was a captain.
>> He laughed and he said, "Absolutely. All
we need is a court marshal. No problem
at all.
>> Uh we can we can get you to private.
That's super easy." And I said, "No,
thank you."
>> Sure. That was not what I was prepared
to do to to fulfill that moment feeling
of responsibility. But these are the
complexities. Anybody right at this
moment trying to figure out what's in
their control, what isn't in their
control, what matters, what doesn't
matter, what amounts to a meaningful
effort, what doesn't amount to a
meaningful effort. I don't have any easy
answers for that. But I do have the
enduring belief that if you aim your
decisions toward the service of one
person that matters. So even if you're
now stuck in a place as a human being
where you can't help thousands of people
or millions of people or billions of
people but you can help your neighbor or
one reader or one whatever that matters
or that can be that can be felt to
matter whether it whether it matters in
some cosmic way who knows.
>> I want to take a look at something that
you wrote and why smart people hurt. You
said we must understand that we are
evolved and not designed. And with that
understanding comes a huge sigh of
relief as we suddenly realize that we
are bound to manifest shortfalls and
that we will regularly dismay and
disappoint ourselves. It also brings on
equally huge warning sign as we
recognize that neither we nor the rest
of our species are adequately equipped
to handle personal, communal or
specieswide challenges.
Talk to us more about the ideas in that
as we all sit here wondering how do I
resist? How do I resist without getting
exhausted? How do I resist knowing that
nothing that I do is going to be enough?
That I can't change it all. I can't snap
my fingers as an individual and change
the world. So, talk us through how
you're thinking about that.
>> Let me first uh describe two paradigm
shifts that I think are needed for all
human beings. We're not going to get
them, but we need them.
One is the paradigm shift from the idea
that life has a purpose to the idea of
life purposes to the idea that we get to
decide what's important to us. And these
are multiple things. There is no single
thing that's important to us. If we're a
parent, our kids matter. If we're a
creative person, our novel matters. If
we're a social animal, our society
matters, etc. So there's that paradigm
shift that instantly helps because then
we have a a repertoire of things to try
on a given day. If we can't make
progress as a helping person or as a
smart person with respect to one thing,
we can hold our child's hand and cross
the street and go to the park. We have
some other places to invest meaning,
some other purposes. So that's one
necessary and it it may sound simple,
but it's actually a big paradigm shift
for human beings to move from the idea
of a purpose to life, which gets you
only depression. If you're trying to
find it, you're not going to find it
because it ain't there.
>> Therefore, it's going to be a wild goose
chase. So that's one paradigm shift. And
the other is equally important, and
that's the shift from the thousands of
year old metaphor of seeking meaning to
the idea of making meaning. And again,
the words are easy to say and easy to
hear. And yet, it's hard to hear that
there's no meaning to find out there.
That meaning is merely a certain kind of
psychological subjective experience.
It's all a certain feeling. Meaning is a
feeling. Purpose is a choice. Meaning is
a feeling. What does that mean?
>> That means is as as with any feeling,
joy, anger, anything, it's going to come
and go. We have to start being relaxed
about meaning vanishing. Since it is
just a feeling, it's going to come and
go like any other feeling. So now if
your day is feeling meaningless, you
don't have to go into the despair place
over that. What you get to say is it'll
be back.
>> It'll be back on Tuesday. Meaning will
return on Tuesday. It's just around the
corner. So that's a really important
realization that meaning comes and goes. Come
Come
>> almost like a mood. It's like happiness
is fleeting. Sadness comes and goes.
>> Language for it, but it's almost like a
mood. almost like a feeling. It's an
important feeling and I'm not sure that
everyone feels it. I'm not sure that
>> this if we talk about smart people in
that whole question, it may be that
smart people have this added burden or
whatever of of experiencing meaning and
therefore experiencing it leaving and vanishing.
vanishing.
>> Well, let's look at that for a second
because in your book you said in and why
smart people hurt, you said meaning is a
smart person's most difficult challenge.
The primary challenge that smart people
must deal with is making sense of meaning.
meaning.
>> Exactly. So yeah, let me let me
elaborate. Let's say that you have it in
you to write a novel. That's what you
mean to do. That's what you want to do.
That's your decision. That's your happy
place. That's your love, etc., etc. So
you sit down and you with some
enthusiasm start your novel. And then,
as Virginia Wolf puts it, resignation
sets in by day two. Oh my god, I'm
writing a novel. I don't know what it's about
about
>> on a hack. Absolutely. What was I thinking?
thinking?
>> So, what that means is the meaning is
going to drain out of the enterprise on
day two. It's not going to feel
meaningful all of a sudden. And this is
why it's such a problem because if you
don't understand that all that's
happening is that you're engaged in
process. You're engaged in the creative
process. That's what you're doing. And
that of course meaning left today
because of all the reasons you just
named that you're not sure what you're
doing. You don't know what happens next.
You don't know how to plot a novel and
this that and the other thing. How could
meaning stay afloat in the face of all
of those objections? Can't.
>> So, you're gonna have a bad day. The
question is, you're gonna have a bad 800 days.
days.
That is, if every day for the first 73
days of your novel are like that, where
you don't know what you're doing and you
don't like your book and every time you
reread the paragraph you just wrote, you
hate it. How are you going to persist?
>> It's going to take a lot of brilliant
self-talking to persist. And those are
the people who are successful is that
they found some way to not even notice
that meaning has left. Or maybe it has
remained for some reason that despite
all of the difficulties and distractions
and and unfortunate selft talk despite
all of those things meaning is still
afloat. But it's this conversation
around meaning that most smart people
never have. They've never invited to
have it. There's no place at the dinner
table where meaning is talked about.
There's no place in any school
curriculum where meaning is talked
about, including really if you were an
undergraduate major in philosophy. You
still wouldn't hear about meaning. You'd
hear about in a certain funny way, but
not in the way we're talking about it.
You might hear about the history of the
philosophy of meaning.
>> Where does the craving come from? I
think I I I sense the craving. And if
we're not taught about it, we're not
hearing about it. Where does craving
come from?
>> Where does joy come from?
Where does anger come from?
>> When I find it, I'll let you know
exactly sure. Now, I can get you anger.
I can get you I can get you to anger
pretty quickly, but I don't know where
it I don't know.
>> No, that's right. We don't we don't
know. So, to step sideways for a second,
I have a very simple model of
personality or theory of personality
that I teach that personality is made up
of three parts. original personality,
formed personality,
and our remaining personality, available
personality, our remaining freedom. We
don't know anything about original personality.
personality.
And psychiatry, psychology, all of those
fields throw up their hands and never
never make mention of original personality.
personality.
They don't want to look at it because
they don't know what to do with it.
Pediatricians know about sort of
temperament tests. If you know, you can
test the reflexes of an infant as the
infant comes out of the womb and whether
it's really highly agitated or what have
we. We know that stuff.
>> We have no idea what our blueprint is or
what the lifelong consequences of doing
things that run counter to that
blueprint will mean. We have no idea.
Let's say just for the sake of argument
that you were born one standard
deviation sadder than the next person.
It's not a mental disorder. That's
something about your original
personality. That's something about what
you've come into the world with. So you
can have lifelong consequences. Or let's
let's say it slightly differently. Let's
say it's not that you came into the
world sadder, but you came into the
world more observant. And what you
observed were things that made you sad.
Then you're going to be sadder. So it
may not be that you came into the world
sadder, but you may have come into the
world with a kind of apparatus that's
going to cause you to feel more anxious
or to feel sad or more despair.
I don't think that that explains things
like meaning though and and what I want
to think about what you said. You said,
you know, where does joy come from?
Where does anger come from? I think I
think that the distinction we could make
is that something like anger, you could
make me mad right now. You could invoke
anger in me. You could invoke joy in me,
but meaning no one can bring that to me.
Let me push Paul. I don't think so.
>> I could I could tell a joke and one
person will find it funny and the other
person won't. It's still the same
subjective experience. I can't deliver
joy to you. You have to experience it as
joyful. I can throw the best party in
the world and you could be standing in a
corner upset about something. So, it's
similar in that sense. It's about the
subjective experience and the inability
to get a guarantee around any of these
things, especially around meaning, but
around any of them.
>> I'm with you on the religion, by the
way, but I think that someone listening
to us that has faith would say, "Well,
what you're talking about in terms of
meaning or inspiration is God-given."
How do you respond to that? Or do you
respond to that? Well, I don't I would
say which god.
>> I mean, I I there there are sort of
atheistic apologetics that one can pull
out of a hat to respond. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But I but I I don't I'm not particularly
moved by that. I'll tell you there was a
moment some years ago where I was in England
England
and a teacher at a fancy school invited
me to do a lecture for the whole school
on atheism. And and the reason was that
that the British government had decided
that since they were allowing so much
religious education at school that they
had to allow a little counterargument.
It was sort of mandated at a high level
that that an atheist could show up once
in a while. So I was the the atheist who
got to show up
>> at that school.
>> Lucky me. Well, I I enjoyed it. But also
I just have to say as an aside they had
this tradition at this school where at
the end of the lecture the whole school
walked by you and shook your hand all
the students and many refused to shake
my hand. >> Wow.
>> Wow.
>> Not not aggressively but just they
passed on the opportunity. >> Interesting.
>> Interesting.
>> And they had been primed. The thing
after the talk was the question and
answer period where we went to some
rectory or some room or some place and
they started bombarding me with the kind
of question you asked about how can you
know that God doesn't exist or this that
>> I'm not a debater. I was not good at
this. This was not my shame. So they won.
won.
>> Of course
>> they won.
>> You share a little bit of your
background and I don't know that you
know no one's coming up to me or
emailing me saying you know defend your
atheism or anything like that. I grew up
in a fundamentalist Christian home and
there is always that little voice in my
head. Even my family doesn't try to
debate me or question me about it
anymore, but there's some perverse part
that still exists in me
>> that's what about what about what if,
you know, and so I get, you know, don't
engage, but I don't think it's coming
from anybody else. It's all coming from
me. I'm trying to make sense of it.
>> Exactly. Yeah. And and if I were to give
advice about this, it would be to
embrace mystery.
>> H that's hard.
>> I use that word.
>> It's hard for smart people to embrace mystery.
mystery.
>> Exactly. Exactly. It flies in the face
of reason and knowing, well, there's a
lot of not knowing. And I I do embrace
mystery. If you tell me something that
just makes no sense to me, like there is
a bearded guy who cares what I'm eating.
That makes no sense to me. And that's
not mysterious to me.
>> Yeah. is not not interesting to me and
not mysterious to me. But if let's just
say for the sake of argument that I for
some reason remember an interaction with
a friend from 30 years ago and seven
minutes later for the first time in 30
years he calls. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> And these kinds of synchronicities happen.
happen. >> Yep.
>> Yep.
>> I just put that in the place of mystery.
That doesn't make me go someplace to
needing to posit a god. I'm just going,
"Wow, that was really mysterious. Now on
to my work."
>> Yeah. Yeah. I get
>> I think I think we can relax into the
understanding that there's stuff we
don't know we don't have to know as
well. Like does it really matter that
that seven minutes later your friend
called? Like do you really need a
dissertation or an explanation on that
event to have a good life? No.
>> Exactly. And if a thousand physicists
are debating whether the Big Bang did or
didn't happen, do I care? >> No,
>> No,
>> probably not.
>> I don't need to I don't need to know
that either. If there's something there
that is mysterious, let it be dark
matter, whatever, dark energy, I don't know.
know.
>> Embrace the mystery. I love it. All
right. So, I want to I want to get to uh
something else that you wrote. This
again is from Why Smart People Hurt.
>> You said, "A smart person is able to
think clearly at least some of the
time." And one of the results of
thinking clearly, seeing clearly, and
using his brain's available power is to
see through the illogic and falsities
around him, which produces a grave new
set of problems. Seeing clearly puts a
smart person at odds with his society.
One of the important consequences of
this natural ability to appraise and to
deconstruct is that you breed doubt in
yourself. You can end up mistrusting
your own thoughts, your choices, your
decisions, and even your values and
principles. When you are good at
deconstruction, you open the door to
doubt. You must be doubly alert to the
fact that you are responsible for the
meaning in your life. That your doubts
amount to meaning leaks, drains, and
even crises. And that you must use your
smarts to shore up meaning using the
many principles and practices of natural
psychology that are available to you. I
want you to talk about, and you you
alluded to it a little bit earlier.
I think that there are two opportunity
for meaning or purpose leaks that occur
that drive me batshit crazy. One is I
have a purpose. I've decided that that
purpose no longer suits me and it's time
to move on even if I don't know what
that next purpose is. And so that
creates this gap. And I think that that
gap can be a day, a week, a year or years.
years.
And then there's this other gap that's
as an example getting ready for this
interview. This is very meaningful to
me. Prepping for the interview probably
not so meaningful. When I was finished
prepping on Sunday, Monday was just a
day because I'd done my prep. I'm
waiting for you on Tuesday. And so I
have this micro gap where I spend that
time beating the out of myself. You
should be doing this, this, this, this,
and this. or not doing all these other
things. So, there are these leaks and it
can very quickly turn into crises when
you have these little gaps or these much
bigger existential gaps. I don't know if
that made any sense or if you can help
me makes a ton of sense. There's just so
much there to unpack. There's a lot to unpack.
unpack.
>> Let me go here and there. >> Sure.
>> Sure.
So there came a time where I did some
interviews with folks who were well
respected in their professions and the
the goal of these interviews was not X.
But what happened was it came up that
for each of these folks a time came when
meaning leaked out of their main
enterprise in life. One woman was a nun,
Mother Teresa's right-hand nun, and she
stopped believing in Mother Teresa
religion and her order. That's that's a
big leak. >> Yeah,
>> Yeah,
>> it's a big wool. One fellow gave up
tenure because he just could not
tolerate teaching his classes any
longer. And giving up tenure is not an
easy thing to do. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But here's the headline. To a person, it
took them five years to move from the
moment when they knew that meaning had
leaked out of the enterprise to actually
leaving the enterprise. >> Yep.
>> Yep.
>> That's a long time to be in pain. >> Yep.
>> Yep.
>> Why do we do that?
>> Well, because there are consequent there
are consequences. There's the
unsettledness of now not having tenure
and what do you do?
>> Who pays the bills? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> For religious folks, it's leaving
community. They they often have no
trouble leaving God. That's this is my
experience of people what reports to me
of what their experience is of leaving
their religion. God was easy to leave.
>> Their pastor was easy to leave. Pancakes
on Sunday was not so easy to leave. >> Yep.
>> Yep.
>> Community was not so easy to leave. So
because there are real consequences to
to these meaning leaks, people stay on
not hopefully. They're not hoping that
that meaning will return. That's really
not what's going on. They're just not
prepared to face the consequences of
making the move that they know is coming.
coming.
>> Do they know before you go on? Do they
know what the next move is or do they
just know that this one is done?
>> Well, what they know as a whole is
coming. An hol is coming.
That's what they know is they know that
difficulty is coming. They don't know
the upside. All they know is the downside
downside
>> of the pain they're experiencing now. A
>> and the pain that's coming. They're
anticipating that the that the actual
leaving of the order is not going to be
fun at all. It's not going to be
liberating. It's not going to be joyous.
It's going to be sad and desparing and
lonely and all of that. And that's
another reason why they don't want to do
it. But eventually you find that they do
>> they do I would say to the last moment reluctantly.
reluctantly.
>> It's like hitting bottom almost in that >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> recover. I like to I like to hit bottom
and roll around and bounce for a little
while. Um
>> so how how do you see them once they've
reluctantly given up on the thing?
They're moving on. They may not know
what that next thing is. What do you do
with that big gap, that time of
searching and trying to figure out
what's next?
>> Well, linguistically, it's a return to
the things I was saying previously. That
is, I would want them to identify what's
important to them. Not just what the
loss was, but what are the multiple
things important to them in in something
that you said previously, you returned
to the singular use of the word purpose
without an s
>> inadvertently because that's our habit.
It's almost impossible for people in the
beginning to get away from the word
purpose as opposed to purposes.
But if this person who has now left her
order or left tenure can can say to
herself, many things are important to
me. I haven't lost the only thing that mattered.
mattered.
>> But wouldn't you say that some things
are more important than others? I get
purposes. I'm with you. They are totally
sure. But like leaving God or leaving
the church or leaving the community,
that's a big freaking purpose, right?
that but but you're underlining the more
and I'm I'm I'm underlining important
yes that's more important than other
things but many things still are
important the word has no meaning unless
it means important
so if you don't think that raising your
kids are also important or spending time
in nature is also important or being of
service is also important not as
important as knowing God
>> but important the The word important has
to have meaning here. This is what I'm
selling is the idea that we have many
things that are important to us or we
may have to fake it until we make it. I
want to look at something you wrote in
uh redesign your mind on this particular
point. You said we must opt for life. We
must opt to live the 20 or 60 years
ahead of us. This may be all we have but
it is exactly what we have. We force
life to mean while we are alive and
until death releases us from our
responsibility to live authentically. We
say while I am alive I can love. While I
am alive I can learn a few things. While
I am alive I can help in some ways.
While I am alive I can create. We must
opt to matter. Because we can and
because unromantically but utter
sincerely we must. I'm I think about
kind of bringing together the idea of
purposes and meaning and I what I'm
learning from you and and what I'm
reading from you is that there's
essentially a two-step process here that
first we have to decide that is the
primary task that we have to decide what
that important thing what is that thing
that's going to give us that
>> psychological experience of meaning right
right
>> that's right
>> but then step two is we actually have to
take a stand for it and I've heard you
say in other places that we have to uh
that you're selling personal responsibility.
responsibility.
>> Don down the mantle of meaning maker is
one of my phrases. But yeah, that's
right. We have to we have to step up. We
have to step up to the plate. We have to
show up and we have to show up one
minute after the next. It's not showing
up on Thursday.
>> All right.
>> Continually showing up.
>> If I decide if I decide that underwater
basket weaving, that's how I derive
meaning in my life is underwater basket
weaving and I'm going to take a stand.
and I'm going to take personal
responsibility for being the best basket
weaver that I can be. Still have in my
the back of my head that little voice
that's saying, "Well, it's important
>> because you decided it was important,
but it's only important because you
decided was it important?" And so I find
myself in this loop of, well, I can pick
a thing that matters, but in the back of
my head, I still know that it only
matters because I picked it to matter.
Help me resolve this.
>> Sure. Easy. Easy. Rather than having
that conversation, I would want you to
train yourself to have the following
conversation. If I didn't also honor my
needs to serve humanity, and if I didn't
also honor my needs to serve my family,
and if I didn't do this, that, and the
other thing, basket weaving would not be
sufficient. But because
>> slow, slow down. Say that. Say that again.
again.
>> Okay, I'll say it that way again, then
I'll say it differently.
>> Okay? If I didn't honor my needs to be
of service or my values to be of
service, if I didn't honor my need to be
responsible as a parent, then spending
all this time at basket weaving would
not be okay. Then that would be
inauthentic. That would be acting in bad
faith in my own terms. >> Okay?
>> Okay?
>> That would be bad faith. That would be
inauthentic. But because I have multiple
life purposes and I'm honoring all of
them because I'm organizing my week
around the seven things that are
important to me, basket weaving has its
place. I can allow it to be a productive
obsession. I can be obsessed about it as
long as I'm doing all the next right
things and all the other domains that
are important to me. That's the conversation.
conversation.
You would only not have that
conversation if you didn't have a
conscience. I'm speaking to people who
understand that they're treading in the
waters of value. They're trying to
figure out what's of value. If we're
talking about somebody else who doesn't
care about values, but just only wants
ambition or whatever, that trickster
archetype in world literature who just
wants to poison the well. If I'm talking
to that person, we're not having this
conversation. I just have to arrest you.
I have to get you out of my life. But if
I'm talking to a person who has this
feeling that it's not authentic to live
without value, then that person can be
convinced to put basket weaving in its
place and and let it have a place.
>> Maybe where I'm getting tripped up is
conflating basket weaving with my whole identity.
identity.
>> Exactly. There you go. Let me bandandy
about a phrase that I try to sell to all
clients. It's a simple idea. So even
though we have multiple life purposes in
my view or ought to ought to have
multiple life purposes in my view that
doesn't mean we can't extract from those
many life purposes a life purpose
statement that stands for the essence of
all those life purposes.
>> And mine for myself is do the next right
thing. If a person really buys that do
the next right thing energy then they
will know when basket weaving is the
next right thing and when it isn't. And
the next right thing might be a nap. It
doesn't mean it needs to be something
moral or valued driven. It's just the
next appropriate thing based on my sort
of complete understanding of how I want
to represent myself as a human being.
>> I think that the reason that that I'm
making this so hard and I would imagine
a lot of people listening to this make
this so hard
is because you're asking us to take the
simple like the next right thing is to
watch Netflix and chill.
and also the next right thing is to
write that next great work. And so
you've got the big and the minuscule and
you're asking us to bring those two
together in a holistic way. And that is
really freaking hard.
>> That's really hard. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah. And that's why so many people are
so troubled because the central task
they're facing, which is the task we're
we're describing, is hard. Just put a
period there. It's hard. I have a new
book coming out called Brave New Mind
coming out in December in which I I try
to tackle how to organize one's thinking
to be equal to this hard problem
>> in philosophy or in consciousness
studies. Consciousness is called the
hard problem. Well, living is the hard
problem or living this way is the hard
problem. When I think about that and
when I hear you talk about that, it goes
back to what you said very early in our
conversation about the idea of of process
process
that we are constantly in process. How
have you learned in the creative process
to allow for the messy and the mundane?
>> I never had a problem with it, which is
one of those lucky things. That's just luck.
luck.
>> Okay. Uh
>> for us mere mortals, what have you seen work?
work?
>> Exactly. But I'll just tell an anecdote.
I was working on a screenplay with a
fellow and I'm guessing it was pizza.
We're having some messy food while we
were working on the screenplay. And it
it was my style in those days to just
wipe my hands on my shirt. I just could
not be bothered to find a napkin because
I was busy thinking about the screenplay.
screenplay.
>> Yeah. His comment was, "I'm so not you.
I have to stop everything and find the napkin."
napkin."
And I, this was not my response, but my
response now would be, "If you stop
everything to find the napkin, you're
not working on the screenplay."
Here's what I would say. We are trained
to do the next right thing or to do
right things all day long. Do correct
things, let's say, to do correct things.
Drive on the correct side of the road,
pick up our kids at three. That's how
that's what we're trained to do. And
that sounds responsible and that sounds
correct. We should do that. Now a moment
is supposed to come in that day of doing
everything right where suddenly we have
permission to make mistakes and messes.
It's not easy to go from one place to
the other. It's really super hard
because we are so trained to pick up our
kids at three and find the napkin so
we're not making a mess and doing one
thing after another like that. What I
try to sell clients on is the idea of
I'm using my hands here. The idea of a
ceremonial bridge, the idea of having a
mechanism, knowing what you're going to
do to get yourself from everyday mind to
the creative mind. And the ceremonial
bridge that I like to teach the most is
a simple one of using a deep breath,
three or four seconds on the inhale,
three or four seconds on the exhale as a
container for a useful thought. And the
useful thought is I'm completely on the
inhale stopping on the exhale. I'm
completely stopping. Meaning not what it
sounds like that I'm completely
stopping. Rushing. That's what it sounds
like. But what it intends to mean is I'm
completely stopping my need to get
things right. That's so hard.
>> It's very hard. It's why we edit while
we write.
>> I don't need to get things right. I'm
not attached to outcomes. I can write a
book for two years and it if it doesn't
work, I'm on to the next book. I don't care.
care.
>> I do not relate to the idea that I could
spend two years on a book and if it
doesn't get published, you know, who
cares? I cannot relate to you on that
level. How do you know when you've got a
good idea?
>> You know that you have to, though. You
do know that you have to.
>> I'd rather torture myself. I'd much
prefer the pain. How do you know when
you have a good idea versus I've got a book?
book?
>> Oh, there are two contradictory answers.
>> Okay. One is you don't know and you
can't have a guarantee and you can only
know by trying. And I think we get a
tingle down the spine about its
rightness or wrongness or maybe it's
legs. Not about it being right or wrong
because it probably is a good idea. If I
had it, it's a good idea because the idea
idea
>> but does it have booklength legs? That's
a separate question. And I think I have
good radar about that feeling. Could be
wrong. I'm not saying I'm right, but I
just have some somatic physiological
reaction to the idea as as it being
worth not two years because I it doesn't
take me two years. Is it worth six
months or is it not worth six months? So
both things are true simultaneous. I
can't know and I know I can't know and I
think I know at some level whether it's
worth the six months or not.
It sounds like there's there's an
element of that like am I willing to
give this idea six months of my attention.
attention.
>> I would know it 10,000 words for sure
meaning two weeks. I can invest a couple
of weeks in knowing and by the way I can
have a very good idea and not have
permission to follow that idea. It is
much harder for me being known for
non-fiction to get fiction published.
That's just that's a publishing issue.
So if an interesting idea for a novel
arises in me, I have to factor in that
it's going to be harder to sell it. It's
going to be harder for it to have a life
than a non-fiction book would have. So
I'm factoring in reality testing while
also trying to dream big and be creative
and all of that. I'm factoring in
reality now. I wouldn't say I factored
in reality when I was 23. I just wanted
to go where I wanted to go. But now I'm
more measured and more strategic in all
of those words just because.
>> When I read your work, I think that in
my humble opinion, what you do so well
is that you hold up a mirror for so many
of us to see ourselves in your work and
I'm I am grateful for that. And beyond
that mirror, I think that just the way
that you're living your life can be a
role model for us because you have
clearly found a way to channel your
gifts. I I mentioned it earlier. I've
read somewhere that or heard somewhere
that you had written 70 books, published
over 50. How are you so prolific?
>> As Obama would say, it's just
arithmetic. I mean, 500 words a day is
50,000 words in a 100 days, which is a
book. So, I don't think that any writer
really doesn't believe that he or she
can't produce 500 words. It's more that
they're not writing, they're not showing
up or that they're tearing apart their
500 words so it becomes 30 words or this
or that. It's really very
straightforward. If you if you imagine
someone producing two pages a day, if
this is their life work writing, they
should be able to produce two pages a
day that they like or that stands stands
their scrutiny. And that becomes a book
every half year, two books a year, 60
books over 30 years. It just becomes
that it's about the consistency of daily
practice. I have a whole book on that,
the power of daily practice. I really
believe in daily practice when it comes
to those things you one claims to love
or that one claims are meaningful. It
does not work for me for you to say my
writing is meaningful. I just don't get
to it. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Doesn't work for me as a sentence. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, and what I really try to
remind clients, remind human beings is
that the second you miss three days of
writing, six months vanish. That's what
happens. What I mean is the problem is
not losing a day here or there. That's
not a That's not a big deal.
>> The big deal is at the soon as you lose
contact with the work, life intervenes
and a whole year vanishes and you didn't
spend any time on your novel for that
whole year. It's the way in which time vanishes
vanishes
>> when you lose contact with the work.
That's why staying in contact with the
work in a daily way
>> is so very important. Also, let me go on
a tiny tangent here, but it's one of my
pet places. Creative people just don't
understand the extent to which they are
wasting their sleep thinking by not
turning to their creative work first
thing each day. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Talk about this. Let's Yeah. Go there.
>> It's just it's just such a shame.
Everybody knows about dreaming since
Freud wrote interpretation of dreams in
1899. We've been proverating obsessing
about dreams. But that's only one of the
thing that our brain does while we
sleep. It also thinks and if you wake up
a person while they're thinking you will
notice that they're writing poetry or
solving math but they're thinking
they're doing actual thinking. But
whatever they're thinking about vanishes
if when they wake up they turn to the
new day. The second they turn to what
should I have for breakfast all that
sleep thinking vanishes. So there's a
very simple procedure which is to go to
bed with a sleepinking prompt. What I
what I call a wonder
>> rather than a worry. People are going to
bed worried about things as we know. So
rather than going to bed with that worry
about what's tomorrow bringing or what's
my pension look like or any of that
wonder inside your work meaning I wonder
what Mary wants to say to John in
chapter 3.
>> I really am curious about their conversation.
conversation.
Really I wonder your brain will work on that.
that.
If you wake up and go directly to your
computer, you can just take dictation.
The conversation between Mary and John
will be there. That's free thousand
words free. Those are free books just by
doing this.
>> How do you balance input and output? Are
you reading other people's things? Are
you reading academic journals? How are
you balancing input versus output?
>> My reading is pretty much strategic
nowadays, meaning the following.
We haven't talked about this at all, but
um I created and I'm the lead editor for
the Ethics International Press Critical
Psychology and Critical Psychiatry series.
series.
>> That's a mouthful.
>> That's a mouthful. And and as the lead
editor, I propose books to the
publisher. We've had six books come out
so far. And I solicit chapters and then
I edit and then I read those chapters
and edit them. That's primarily the
reading that I do nowadays because
that's work.
I mean that takes time and so right
>> always been that way like through your
career have you been very selective and
strategic about the reading?
>> Well no all my life no I mean I was I
was one of those avid omnivorous readers
growing up the more I wrote the less I
read. I think that's true of a lot of
writer and it's not it's not that we are
worried about being influenced by
somebody else's style or any of that. I
think it was Winston Churchill who said
when I want to read a good book I write
it. M
>> I think it's it's more that kind of
energy of like I just in my own thing
doing my own thing and I know I'm
missing out on some beautiful things no
doubt but still in a life there is only
so much time and multiple life purposes
and different things and for the last I
don't know how many years I've been
editing books like not just for the
ethics international press but for other
>> u enterprises
so uh reading those chapters really kind
of amounts to the only reading I do if I
try to pick up a Robert Parker now, a
Spencer novel. I can't quite do it. I
don't have a taste for it anymore.
>> So, a lot of your writing now is is
mostly non-fiction. Is that right?
>> It is p it is 96 93 and 23%.
>> Okay. It's very precise. So, do you ever
think do you ever think about do you
ever think about what if I'm wrong? So,
once you put it out there, it's in
print. You've given this advice. You've
given people a direction. Do you ever
think or doubt or say, "God, what I said
to people 10 years ago may not hold
water today." Have you ever had that
experience? Do you ever think about that?
that?
>> Oh, ever? You're using such a big word,
ever. Not generally, but ever. For sure.
>> In fact, that passage you read that you
had up on the screen way back when,
which talked about natural psychology.
>> Yeah. Well, I can't stand behind natural
psychology any longer as a phrase.
>> That's a is a long backstory there, but
I I'll tell a piece of the backstory
just because it's interesting. >> Sure.
>> Sure.
>> So, I've been trying to find different
ways to to give a coherent name to the
stuff I do as people want or want to do.
And I liked natural psychology as a way
to call the thing I was doing. And so I
get simultaneously an email and a
registered letter from the American
Psychological Association saying, "You
must cease and desist using the phrase
natural psychology. We own the word psychology."
psychology." >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> That should be a little little
startling, but that's how
institutionalized professionalism works.
>> Yeah. And so um they gave me the
opportunity of going to trial or being
being sued or removing the phrase from
cyberspace. If you think about what that
task is,
>> remove a phrase from cyerspace. It can't
be done really.
>> What you can do is go to websites that
have used the phrase and beg them to
take it down crazy enterprise. But I had
a I had a good friend have a good friend
who was a federal prosecutor and I
called him up and I said here's what's
going on. Should should I fight this or
what should I do? And he said you know
in trial you'll win but you'll have a
horrible time. So acquies. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So ever do I do I ever have second thoughts?
thoughts?
>> Sure. But but but also let I want to say
one other thing. I say one other thing.
especially when I'm
a little concerned that I may have
stepped over some edge with a book, but
also for all books. I pass all the
things I do by my wife and she has final
editorial control. To give you an
example, I wrote a mystery long time
ago, which I liked, but I kind of felt
like it was off somehow. I couldn't
identify why, but I had the feeling that
I'd better not put this out into the
world. Better not search for a publisher
without double-checking with my wife.
And she read it and she said, "It's
cruer than you are. You can't publish this."
this."
>> And I didn't. It's in a drawer
somewhere. So, there were opportunities
from my point of view to make mistakes. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And put stuff out there that I wished I
hadn't. But so far I've stopped them
from appearing before they've appeared.
>> Oh, you're fortunate to have her and
have her looking out. Um
>> That's right. for the brand. >> Absolutely.
>> Absolutely.
>> So I had a um I had a therapist once.
This was after my second book, Breaking
Untangle, had come out and I was still
in therapy. And in my book, I I talk
about mindset methods and growing up a
gay kid in rural Arkansas and the the
things that you have to survive and
overcome. and then how I've come to
think about it and emerge from it. But
obviously, you know, I mean, not maybe
not obviously to this therapist, but I I
was still dealing with the haunts of all
sorts of stuff. And he said, you know,
I'd really like to read your book. So, I
took him a copy of my book.
>> Several weeks go by.
>> That's not That's not actually really
cool, is it?
>> Well, it's very awkward walking into
your therapist office and your book
sitting there. It's more awkward when
your therapist quotes you when you're
telling them something.
>> No, that that's actually a a dual
relationship no to ask to read that
book. I
>> Well, the reason I'm asking you >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> is he he says to me one day, he says,
"Well, you were either a fraud when you
wrote the book or you're a fraud now."
>> And from that book, I would go out and
do corporate speaking gigs and I would
talk about it. And even as I'm talking
in these gigs, I am having to put myself
back in the mindset of the me that
wrote, you know, experienced that stuff
10 years ago or or longer ago and
realizing, oh, I've evolved past. >> Sure.
>> Sure.
>> How do you look at your work and your
creative output and give yourself
permission in the moment to be true to
what is right now, but also knowing I'm
going to evolve past this.
>> We're back to process, aren't we? How
could it not be a process that a 23-y
old writing about meaning may not know
what a 78-year-old might know about meaning?
meaning? >> Yeah,
>> Yeah,
>> a 23-year-old might write a brilliant
novel because that because that's
available. F. Scott Fitzgerald or
somebody might write a brilliant novel
at 19 or 23 or what have you. Would they
be brilliant about meaning or purpose? I
doubt it. And one would expect that it
would take a lifetime of experience and
learning to get to it. and and different
places. Let let me give you probably a
good example of what doesn't bother me.
Maybe it should bother me or should
would bother someone else, but I had a
series of pretty really reasonably
successful books with Jeremy Tarter back
in the early 90s. I'd done a book called
Fearless Creating and then affirmations
for artists and then something else and
something else and then I got cart
blanched to do a book about anything.
Jeremy Tarter, who was a human being,
and his executive editor, whose name I
can't remember, said, "Eric, write a
book about anything. Doesn't have to be
about creativity. You've now done three
or four interesting creativity books in
a row." Carp launch.
Mistake on their part. But
>> so I wrote this grotesque book about meaning.
meaning.
Could not have done more wronging things
than it did. And so I remember having
Jeremy Tarter and the executive editor
were coming through San Francisco where
I lived for some reason. And so we had
drinks at the top of the Mark which is a
hotel in San Francisco. And of course
their first question which they thought
was just a proformer question was how's
the book going? I knew it was terrible.
And I said going so well you're just
going to love it. Just great.
Couldn't be better. So when of course I
had to turn it in at some point and they
kind of apologetically said this is a
complete mess and it's unpublishable.
Didn't phase me for what worried me was
that I'd ruined a relationship. Not that
I'd messed a book up. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean I knew I was doing that all the
way through it. So there was no surprise
there. But that didn't bother me because
I knew in the back of my mind I just I
wasn't the material in this book was not
really available to me yet. I knew that
it would be available to me one day, but
it was not available in that moment.
>> So, should a 23 year old be writing
about meaning?
>> Is there a place for them to express
them? Like you said,
>> oh, sure. Sure. They may be a really
advanced 23 year old. No, no. The
proof's in the pudding. If if it works,
it works.
>> People have an impulse around something
like they really want. And the the re
what comes up for me is I'm now editing
contributions in the existential
wellness book that I just mentioned. So
I'm getting books about sort of the
history of existentialism and and
different diet phenomenology and all the
stuff that existentialists write about.
And all of these authors have a reason
for writing what they're writing. They
have an impulse. They have values
invested. The results just are not very
clear or compelling pretty much which I
have to say to them. and and send it
back to them with commentary. So these
are professors of whatever in
prestigious universities and they still
can't say this stuff well.
>> So proof is in the pudding. Some
23-year-old might say it beautifully and
this 68-year-old professor still can't
say it well. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So it's not about age or experience or
whatever. It's whatever it is.
>> I I find a lot of permission in that.
I'm really glad you shared that
experience. Yeah, I felt a lot of
permission in that.
>> Oh, good. And um and by the way, just to
remind ourselves about something,
creative folks are very easygoing with
respect to other people's work. They
read an ordinary novel, they'll go, it
was fine.
>> They don't bash that novel. They that
that got me through a summer afternoon.
That was just fine.
>> Their own ordinary work, no, not okay. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Being ordinary themselves is not okay.
it's perfectly fine for someone else.
They don't get the idea of a body of
work. They they really most creative
folks do not get this idea that they're
creating a body of work, some of which
will be ordinary, some of which will be
miserable, some of which will be
excellent, that there's a range in this
body of work. They don't get this idea
of a body of work. They're so invested
in the thing they're looking at and
needing it to be marvelous that they
forget the long game. And the long game
is lots of stuff that's ordinary. Who
wants to hear that? That's the truth
about process.
>> Nobody wants to hear that. And that
brings me to something that you wrote in
uh why smart people hurt. You said
getting a grip on your own mind is part
of the process of stopping unreasonable
self-pestering. But just as important is
getting a grip on what is actually
important to you. If you don't know what
the big stuff is, it will naturally be
that much more difficult not to sweat
the small stuff. Small stuff looms large
when the big stuff is unknown. If you
currently don't know what's important to
you, please decide. The task is in
deciding. To your point, I find myself
self-pestering a lot.
>> Let me say to you as a person,
>> if I were coaching you, I would be
wondering what your big project is that
you're not doing.
>> That would be because I know that you're
a big project person. a big project
person who's not working on a big
project is going to feel a meaning
shortfall and pester themselves about
what they're doing. It doesn't mean that
if they are working on their big project
that's a guarantee, but there's a hole
there. And I'm not I'm not inviting you
to say what your big project is that
you're not working on. But I would know
I would just know that there is one. Let
me let me push you on that for just a
second. I heard you in another interview
and they said to you, you know, you've
you've managed to make a business out of
writing and and talking about what you
talk about. And he said, "What was the
most challenging thing of starting and
getting a business going?" And you
immediately replied like immediately.
Your reaction was, "Well, the first
challenge was was to care about people
at all." >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> That hit me like a bag of bricks when
you said that. You're clearly a smart
person. And I want you I want to talk
about the gifted word in just a second,
but you're clearly a smart person. How
do you tolerate I'm not going to say
stupid people, but people who do stupid
things on the regular.
How do you live in a world where you
have to tolerate that and care about
people in general and get to a place
where you're serving at as a high level
as you have? Very complicated question.
>> That's that's kind of my style, Eric. That's
That's
>> maybe the answer is complicated. >> Okay,
>> Okay,
>> let me let me go in a few different
directions. One is the people who come
to me, the clients I have are by and
large smart. That's who comes to me. So
I don't have to deal with the other folks
folks
>> in session. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> That's a big deal. If I had to, I
wouldn't be able to do it. I wouldn't be
able to do. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh that's a b I tune out all
conversations in airports and
restaurants and what have you. My wife
hears what's going on at the next table.
I I tune it out. I can't There's a
little deafness going on, but it's also
a conscious tuning. I I don't want to
know these conversations.
>> What about the news? What about social media?
media?
>> I I watch no news.
>> I absolutely I watch zero news. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> I don't have a cell phone. I do not
possess one. I don't have a smartphone.
I'm insulated because I have stuff to
do. I have work to do. It would be to me
an indulgence to care about the news.
Unless I was going to a barricade.
Unless it was a resistance fighting
moment and I was going to a barricade,
then I would need to know where the
barricade was. Is it on this avenue or
that avenue? But short of going on a
barricade just to know that another
cruel thing has happened. Don't need to
know that.
>> I think that that's hard. And I would
love for you to talk me out of my need
to know. So I think that I think that
one of the characteristics push back
obviously one of the characteristics of
a smart person is is a need to know
wanting to learn wanting to know more.
>> And when you're living in history I mean
this is I don't think we can de when
you're living through history how can
your mind not want to know like what the
hell are these people doing today? And
if not just for interest,
self-preservation or resistance fighting.
fighting.
>> I I think one can be really very
whichever thread of philosophy one
chooses but one can be very
philosophical about that. You may
remember that the ending of Kimu's the
plague which is an allegory about World
War II where rats for Nazis.
>> The last sentence of that novel is
something like the rats always returned
for the edification of mankind. How can
we not know that the rats? We know that
the rats always return for the
edification of mankind. The rats are
back. I don't need to know that unless
there's something to do. I don't know
why you would need to know that the rats
are back. Unless you were intending to
do something with that information.
Don't we have a responsibility? Don't
smart people, not not to know, not not
necessarily to know, but
>> do you think that smart people have a responsibility
responsibility
>> to play a bigger role in making sure
that that this goes in a good way and
doesn't just
>> That's why all day long I am fighting
psychiatry and it's I'm doing good work
all day long while not knowing that the
cruel people are doing cruel. I don't
need to know the news if that costs me
my fight against badness over here. >> So,
>> So,
>> I'm busy fighting. I'm busy on the on my barricades.
barricades.
>> You picked your fight is what I'm hearing.
hearing.
>> I'm picking my That's right. Religion is
one of my fights. Psychiatry is one of
my fights. Humbug in general would be
one of my fights. But anything that
comes up that I believe to be um
anti-humanistic, anti-humane, anti
anything that's not okay, I'll fight.
But to be engaged in that fight, I can't
also be watching the news.
>> Yeah, I get that.
>> It it's more in existential terms would
be called engaged on gajier, right? I'm
engaged selectively. Of course,
selectively. When I invite a guest on
this podcast on the intake form, I asked
for some information like you know your
picture and your bio and I asked a
question about do you identify with the
word giftedness as it is cited in the
research and you said uh it's
complicated. I'm wondering how do you
think about giftedness in adulthood?
>> It's not gifted and talented are not
words that I either use or like to use.
I guess I don't like to use them
uh because they feel a little in need of
deconstruction that multiple ideas are embedded.
embedded. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> In there.
>> There are ideas from gardener and
multiple intelligences. So you one could
be talented in some domain not be a
talented person
>> but be talented at carpentry or whatever.
whatever.
>> So that's that's one complication.
>> There just feel like there are many.
So if in order to master something, as
that book says, it takes 10,000 hours to
do something to master it.
>> Once I'm now a master at it, am I was
was it was there talent involved or was
it 10,000 hours of work? Was there ever
talent? Exactly. Was that was that the
right frame to be thinking about how I
arrived at mastery? Is it via talent or
sweat equity? I don't know. I guess I
guess smart if there's it feels like I
can picture a bell curve with smart. I
can picture a normal curve and I can see
smart one standard deviation to the
right and very smart two standard deviations to the right. I can picture
deviations to the right. I can picture that and I can picture 15% over there to
that and I can picture 15% over there to the right in the two in the two standard
the right in the two in the two standard deviations and then one and a half% or
deviations and then one and a half% or 2% at the far far right. I that that all
2% at the far far right. I that that all I can picture and that makes sense to
I can picture and that makes sense to me. Unitary intelligence, which is an
me. Unitary intelligence, which is an idea that has been deconstructed and
idea that has been deconstructed and debunked, but still at least
debunked, but still at least metaphorically rings a bell to me. It
metaphorically rings a bell to me. It still rings a bell,
still rings a bell, >> somebody smart or not. That holds for
>> somebody smart or not. That holds for me. And talented and gifted, I don't see
me. And talented and gifted, I don't see the bell curve. Do you find though with
the bell curve. Do you find though with the people that you see that are
the people that you see that are creative, smart folks as you've
creative, smart folks as you've described them, do they also have
described them, do they also have experience the negative parts of that
experience the negative parts of that whether it be an urge to perfection and
whether it be an urge to perfection and all the things that come with
all the things that come with perfectionism or existential crises or
perfectionism or existential crises or uh intensities or overexitabilities. Do
uh intensities or overexitabilities. Do you see those things in them in addition
you see those things in them in addition to their creative intelligence?
to their creative intelligence? >> All of those. And let me just add one
>> All of those. And let me just add one that the ones you just named I think are
that the ones you just named I think are obvious enough to not necessarily need
obvious enough to not necessarily need elaboration. One that's interesting I
elaboration. One that's interesting I call the smart gap. That's a little less
call the smart gap. That's a little less known as an idea and that's the idea
known as an idea and that's the idea that that a person experiences
that that a person experiences themselves as smart but not smart enough
themselves as smart but not smart enough to get the work they want to get done.
to get the work they want to get done. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> And that's very painful and very
>> And that's very painful and very poignant to me. Let's say you have an IQ
poignant to me. Let's say you have an IQ of 173, but you need an IQ of 194 to be
of 173, but you need an IQ of 194 to be Newton. That's really tough. I don't
Newton. That's really tough. I don't mean it's tougher than being a coal
mean it's tougher than being a coal miner, but it's just tough. Now, can
miner, but it's just tough. Now, can one, by the way, can one get smarter?
one, by the way, can one get smarter? There there were interesting studies in
There there were interesting studies in the 1940s when Roosevelt had money to
the 1940s when Roosevelt had money to throw at the WPA.
throw at the WPA. >> And many interesting things were done in
>> And many interesting things were done in the 1940s that have never been
the 1940s that have never been replicated. And one was about classroom
replicated. And one was about classroom enrichment. And if you had one group of
enrichment. And if you had one group of students who didn't get enriched and one
students who didn't get enriched and one group of students who did and then did
group of students who did and then did pre and post IQ test, the the enriched
pre and post IQ test, the the enriched kids gained five or 10 points in IQ, but
kids gained five or 10 points in IQ, but by virtue of having enrichment
by virtue of having enrichment activities and what have you. So maybe
activities and what have you. So maybe one could get from 167 to 173. It's
one could get from 167 to 173. It's still not 194.
still not 194. >> Yeah. I've heard you talk about, you
>> Yeah. I've heard you talk about, you know, and I think this issue relates to
know, and I think this issue relates to it. I've heard you talk about things
it. I've heard you talk about things like depression actually is despair. I
like depression actually is despair. I don't want to put words in your mouth,
don't want to put words in your mouth, but that's what I what I picked up.
but that's what I what I picked up. >> And also, I know you know how much you
>> And also, I know you know how much you think about existentialism
think about existentialism >> and that these things shouldn't be
>> and that these things shouldn't be pathized.
pathized. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> And yet I if I'm feeling blue, I go to
>> And yet I if I'm feeling blue, I go to my doctor. He's going to refer to me to
my doctor. He's going to refer to me to psychiatrist who's going to give me a
psychiatrist who's going to give me a pill. What's it gonna take? What is it
pill. What's it gonna take? What is it going to take for practitioners,
going to take for practitioners, psychologists, MDs, psychiatrists to
psychologists, MDs, psychiatrists to have more awareness around what it is to
have more awareness around what it is to crave meaning and feel despair and want
crave meaning and feel despair and want to make something of your life and not
to make something of your life and not freaking pathize it? What's it going to
freaking pathize it? What's it going to take to bring that?
take to bring that? >> There's no there's no hope that will
>> There's no there's no hope that will change.
change. >> But all of the efforts of the folks in
>> But all of the efforts of the folks in the this movement that I'm in has three
the this movement that I'm in has three names. critical psychology, critical
names. critical psychology, critical psychiatry, and anti-csychiatry.
psychiatry, and anti-csychiatry. Nobody agrees to what the real name is,
Nobody agrees to what the real name is, and that's okay. But our efforts, Robert
and that's okay. But our efforts, Robert Whitaker, who runs Madden America, which
Whitaker, who runs Madden America, which is a wonderful website and has lots of
is a wonderful website and has lots of viewers and all of that, that's a great
viewers and all of that, that's a great place to learn about critical psychology
place to learn about critical psychology stuff. There there are resources, but
stuff. There there are resources, but not only are there resources, but there
not only are there resources, but there are changes
are changes happening. Not gigantic. I don't know
happening. Not gigantic. I don't know what what level change to call them, but
what what level change to call them, but for instance, very recently in the last
for instance, very recently in the last couple of months.
couple of months. So I have to do a little backstory here.
So I have to do a little backstory here. The American Psychiatric Association
The American Psychiatric Association produces something called the DSM, the
produces something called the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of
Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of American Psychiatric Association.
American Psychiatric Association. >> Yeah,
>> Yeah, >> that's the Diagnostic Manual for the
>> that's the Diagnostic Manual for the United States and a lot of the world.
United States and a lot of the world. The World Health Organization produces a
The World Health Organization produces a different document, the ICD, the
different document, the ICD, the International Classification of
International Classification of Diseases, which but most of the
Diseases, which but most of the non-American world uses, but it's the
non-American world uses, but it's the same model. They both have the same
same model. They both have the same symptom picture basis. Okay. Y but just
symptom picture basis. Okay. Y but just a couple of months ago, the World Health
a couple of months ago, the World Health Organization came out and said, "We
Organization came out and said, "We don't we no longer quite believe in our
don't we no longer quite believe in our own reliance on this model. We're not
own reliance on this model. We're not quite sure that this symptom picture
quite sure that this symptom picture model and it doesn't work works. We're
model and it doesn't work works. We're not sure it works.
not sure it works. >> And so we're looking at it.
>> And so we're looking at it. >> Okay,
>> Okay, >> that's that's something.
>> that's that's something. >> It's not nothing.
>> It's not nothing. >> That's not nothing. And how did who who
>> That's not nothing. And how did who who learned what from what or how did that
learned what from what or how did that happen? What's the butterfly effect
happen? What's the butterfly effect here? I don't know. But it it encourages
here? I don't know. But it it encourages me.
me. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Not that we can get all the way because
>> Not that we can get all the way because big pharma is so big. watch something
big pharma is so big. watch something every two out of three ads are drug ads.
every two out of three ads are drug ads. >> It's wild.
>> It's wild. >> So it so it's really hard to fight big
>> So it so it's really hard to fight big farmer. Also the central metaphor is so
farmer. Also the central metaphor is so potent that it's almost impossible to
potent that it's almost impossible to crack. The central metaphor is the
crack. The central metaphor is the analogy between physical disorder and
analogy between physical disorder and mental disorder. It just sounds right.
mental disorder. It just sounds right. Well, if there are physical disorders,
Well, if there are physical disorders, certainly there must be mental
certainly there must be mental disorders. And that analogy or metaphor
disorders. And that analogy or metaphor overrides the long sentence that I have
overrides the long sentence that I have to tell a very long sentence about why
to tell a very long sentence about why that doesn't work.
that doesn't work. >> Yeah,
>> Yeah, >> I we have a slogan. I mean, I have
>> I we have a slogan. I mean, I have slogans like childhood is not a disease
slogans like childhood is not a disease and I can create slogans, but that
and I can create slogans, but that physical disorder, mental disorder thing
physical disorder, mental disorder thing is so linguistically powerful.
is so linguistically powerful. >> I'm not sure anything can crack it.
>> I'm not sure anything can crack it. >> Well, we need a good PR guy.
>> Well, we need a good PR guy. >> I I you mentioned earlier that you have
>> I I you mentioned earlier that you have a new book coming out in December.
a new book coming out in December. Before we wrap up here, it's called A
Before we wrap up here, it's called A Brave New Mind. Do you have anything you
Brave New Mind. Do you have anything you want to share a preview about what we
want to share a preview about what we should look forward to in that book?
should look forward to in that book? >> Well, this just maybe just the slightest
>> Well, this just maybe just the slightest preview, and that is I've been trying
preview, and that is I've been trying to, as so many of us are, come to grips
to, as so many of us are, come to grips with um are we equal to this moment? And
with um are we equal to this moment? And if we're not, what might help us become
if we're not, what might help us become more equal to this moment emotionally,
more equal to this moment emotionally, mentally, all of that? And so I've tried
mentally, all of that? And so I've tried to create a picture of a mind that might
to create a picture of a mind that might be equal to this moment by marrying two
be equal to this moment by marrying two ideas. The idea of serenity and the idea
ideas. The idea of serenity and the idea of readiness.
of readiness. And what I'm trying to get at is that
And what I'm trying to get at is that there that some traditional ways of
there that some traditional ways of thinking about now which sound so
thinking about now which sound so promising like the Zen idea of now when
promising like the Zen idea of now when you peel a potato just peel a potato.
you peel a potato just peel a potato. That idea of being really present.
That idea of being really present. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Doesn't actually work any longer or is
>> Doesn't actually work any longer or is actually not appropriate. that we need
actually not appropriate. that we need to both be here tranquily, calmly,
to both be here tranquily, calmly, serenely as best we can, but also ready
serenely as best we can, but also ready for the next thing and ready in certain
for the next thing and ready in certain ways that of course the book goes into
ways that of course the book goes into describing. So, it's a book that tries
describing. So, it's a book that tries to explain and describe the phrase
to explain and describe the phrase serene readiness as a new way to be a
serene readiness as a new way to be a new a new mental model.
new a new mental model. >> That sounds very fascinating. I can't
>> That sounds very fascinating. I can't wait to uh I can't wait to read that. Um
wait to uh I can't wait to read that. Um >> coming to your local bookstore and
>> coming to your local bookstore and >> coming to your local bookstore. His name
>> coming to your local bookstore. His name is Dr. Eric Masil. He is a retired
is Dr. Eric Masil. He is a retired family therapist who specializes in
family therapist who specializes in creative and performing artists. He
creative and performing artists. He founded the profession of creative
founded the profession of creative coaching where he actively maintains a
coaching where he actively maintains a thriving creativity coaching practice.
thriving creativity coaching practice. He has published more than 50 books. The
He has published more than 50 books. The two that I am recommending that you run
two that I am recommending that you run out and purchase today are on your
out and purchase today are on your screen. They are called Why Smart People
screen. They are called Why Smart People Hurt and Redesign Your Mind. You can
Hurt and Redesign Your Mind. You can also learn more about him at
also learn more about him at ericmeazel.com.
ericmeazel.com. Also on Facebook, LinkedIn and Substack.
Also on Facebook, LinkedIn and Substack. Uh Dr. for me. Eric, I hope that this
Uh Dr. for me. Eric, I hope that this this uh the first of many conversations
this uh the first of many conversations that you and I can have. I sincerely
that you and I can have. I sincerely appreciate your time and your generosity
appreciate your time and your generosity and insights today.
and insights today. >> You're very welcome and u thank you for
>> You're very welcome and u thank you for having me and yeah, let's do it again.
having me and yeah, let's do it again. Absolutely.
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