This content is a candid discussion among startup founders reflecting on their company's rapid growth, evolving culture, and strategic decisions, highlighting the journey from a small team in a co-working space to a scaling venture.
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13 people versus three people. Like
those two months were just like matter.
>> We were just all locked in, code open
all day. Felt like it became a real business.
business.
>> Solomon, sir. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> What do we have in store today? >> Um,
um, for you guys all in the same room,
end of the year. It's been it's been
what, eight months since you guys all
kind of boarded the ship together.
What's it like for you guys now sitting
in this room shooting this formal podcast?
podcast?
>> It's I mean I would have never imagined
it. Um yeah, it's crazy.
>> Well, for me it was earlier I think I
was standing in this room and looking
across the other two rooms that we have
that way. Uh and it was just I had like
a little deja vu moment of like wait
there's like 13 14 people here. >> Wow.
>> Wow.
>> Cuz I was thinking about when we started
we were at MySpace and it was like just
like the the three of us.
>> It just kind of I had this like the
comparison. It's like 13 people versus
three people.
>> That office in MySpace was so small.
>> Yeah. What's MySpace? Do people know
what MySpace is?
>> That's a It's a co-working space.
>> We were um
>> So, was that was that the first location
you three worked together at? >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Uh
>> Uh
>> in this company? Yes.
>> In this company? Yes.
>> And when was this? This was in April.
>> April. May.
>> Yeah. April.
>> April. We only because we launched April.
April.
>> We only paid two months of rent there.
So, it's April and May.
>> But we we launched April. So we were
building it before that like 2 weeks or something.
something.
>> Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Oh yeah. We we launched 4th of April.
>> Yeah. Oh, so
>> that was like the product of May.
>> So March
>> before that. Yeah. So it would have been March
March
>> like March through May maybe. That's
probably the period that Yeah.
>> March through May. Then we got the
apartment. I don't think a lot of people
know about the apartment office.
>> Yeah. That was a fun
>> We didn't really make it public. Like we
moved so fast like we're already in our
third office and the company's less than
a year old which is kind of Yeah.
>> It it feels like it's been like 5 years. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I kind of miss the office apartment
>> the apartment office
>> obviously wouldn't work today but but
you know there are moments in I think in
each one of them there were moments like
in my space we were you know
>> we could do what we wanted
in the in the office apartment for sure.
Yeah we lost that in in the current office.
office. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> We'll get it back once we uh expand to
our own space.
>> Yeah. co-working spaces kind of suck.
>> That's my That's my take on it.
>> Generally, yes. But we we definitely
made the the best of this one. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Like this this is good as it gets for a
co-working spot where for context like
we got three rooms like adjacent to each
other. We just kept kind of buying the
next room and the next room and that's
kind of how we scaled.
>> Stop with the foot saw. >> Why?
>> Why?
>> I did it in the last video and I
couldn't stop like focusing on that.
Like I noticed it really
>> just crop it.
>> So no, I'm I'm doing you a favor. Or are
you getting distracted with my foot?
>> I'm not getting distracted by it, but I
got distracted by myself doing it in the
last video and then I was like, what an idiot.
idiot.
>> Put my foot down. How about that?
>> I was watching it for real. I was like,
why am I constantly,
>> you know? Why am Why am I constantly
like moving it?
>> That's all I could think.
>> Look at that.
>> I mean, no, this is what I was doing the
whole time,
>> you know?
>> And I think it I think it's usually a
sign that you're nervous. Are you
anxious right now? >> No.
>> No.
>> Are you sure?
>> No. I always shake my foot. You can ask like
like
>> I just want to make sure that you're okay.
okay.
>> Are you always okay?
>> All right. I'm the CEO that looks after
his team.
>> Thank you. Yes.
>> I've got your back. Just wanted to make
sure that you're okay.
trying to handle.
>> I actually think that was great advice
cuz honestly you would have you would
have seen the episode and you would have
been like what a [ __ ] idiot.
>> Have you seen the Palenter CEO in the interviews?
interviews?
>> I think I could do that.
>> I think I'll be fine.
Hey, I was just saying that I was just
giving you some some CEO to CTO advice.
>> I think it's more like it's it's I'm I'm energized.
energized. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> There's a lot of energy in me, so that's
why I'm
>> like it's like trying to
>> have to let it out somewhere, you know?
>> Okay, I can get with that. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Should we do a tap dance?
>> If you want, why not? Different episode.
>> We've moved from mind space. We then we
then had a an office which was actually
an apartment which I'm now living in.
didn't feel the lease runs out. And now
we're in another co-working space. We're
15 people.
Do you like it here?
>> I think I do because well the commute's
short for starters. Uh yes.
>> I mean it's functional for now. I am
definitely looking forward to the next space.
space.
>> I I think it's a it's a good like
stepping stone into the next like real office.
office.
>> Yeah. Also, I haven't had too much time
to really kind of sit and question it,
>> but we only did it because we just
didn't fit in the other.
>> Oh, yeah. We we we were about
>> So, we needed more space, but you know,
we didn't have enough money for like a
bigger like an actual office. So, it's
like what's the what's the in between?
>> We were about to hire I think two sales
people and we just didn't have anywhere
to put them anymore in the apartment.
So, it was like
>> we need somewhere next week. So, we got
this like temporary space while while we
fundraised. Uh but yeah, I think next
space will give us back some other freedom.
freedom.
>> Yeah. The the main reason I miss the
office apartment is because I used to
have to wake up when people would get
there. And now I have an excuse not to.
So it gets to like, you know, 8:30 a.m.
I'm like, "God damn, I got to get up and
get ready."
>> Yeah. You had like
>> Before Before people would just turn up
at, you know, like 8, you get there
early. I was like forced into action.
Now it's like get there at, you know,
half 9. It's going to kill me. No one's
going to No one's going to ruin this.
So, I can slowly feel myself getting
back into my old like sleeper habits.
>> I see.
>> Which is poor because I was always in
the UK like 5 hours behind you guys.
>> So, I'm hoping that it doesn't get like
that here. You're waking up at midday. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Staying until midnight.
>> Chapter's over. But, uh, yeah, I miss
it. Yeah.
>> But from Mind Space, when you guys were
there, what
definitive thing happened that made you
guys realize, okay, we need to we need to
to
bigger space.
>> It just sucked. It was like It was like
three desks.
>> It was one of these small
>> It was smaller than this room. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And for context, this isn't a very big room.
room. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Right.
>> Right.
>> Yeah. It was like
>> It was like half of this.
>> It was like this room but without the
the back part basically.
>> I think it was smaller.
>> Yeah. I think we were like what if we
pay a little bit more and we just 4x 5x
the square footage. It's probably more
than that actually. It's probably like
8x 9x
>> the square the square footage.
>> Um definitely worth it. But I also
remember like working out of the desks
there and it was like the stock like
desk. The chairs were awful. The desks
were awful.
>> There was also construction going on all
the time.
>> The commute was also not ideal cuz it
was taking like 40 minutes for all of us
to get I mean you sometimes we stay in a
hotel nearby but from where we were.
>> Um so we're like what if we find
something next door? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And it's like nine times bigger
>> and we can customize it and do more
stuff with it.
>> Yeah. It actually too bad for me. I
think I was like a 10-minute cap from
Mind Space cuz I was staying in
Williamsburg at the time. I had like the Airbnb.
Airbnb. >> Y
>> Y
>> um so it wasn't bad for me, but you guys
had to get the ferry, right?
>> Yeah. If you wanted to also get driven
or take an Uber, but it was just it was
just awkward. It wasn't
>> It also was very well connected with
like the subway. Like at least here it's
actually well connected from where we
are for sure.
>> We just walk 5 minutes, take the subway,
and you're already here. Yeah. So
>> much nicer. I think that's when we also
started thinking a little bit about
creating our own studio, like our own
podcast studio, stuff like that.
>> And there's no way we could have done it there.
there. >> No.
>> No.
>> Um, but in the new apartment, we have
multiple rooms. So, like one of the
rooms is going to be a studio. The other
room is going to be,
>> you know, temporary hotel. I think we
want to save. So, you're spending a lot
of money on hotels every time you visit.
>> It was expensive.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's like 5K on hotels plus
the rent for the office.
>> What if we combined that budget, get
like a kick-ass space? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> It's kind of weird.
>> It was like a no-brainer.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think it set the the tone
for the culture at Comi as well.
>> Definitely. It definitely got better.
>> It feel it feels like that was like our
garage moment.
>> For sure.
>> Microsoft like uh like Steve Jobs um
[ __ ] house. Um
>> it's like it's like if you're in Silicon
Valley what you do is you rent a house,
you work out of the hotel. Yeah. If
you're in New York, what's the
equivalent? You get an apartment. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah, that's true.
>> It's correct. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I did what I needed to do.
>> Yeah. And then
>> what was the what was the vibes like the
What was it like?
>> I think I think there wasn't enough time
for us to really get like too deep into
it. Like we were all busy shipping,
right? Like we were in the biggest like
time crunch I think at that point.
>> Best way I could describe is like it was
like hacker mode. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Like those two months were just like
like
>> doesn't matter.
>> We were just all locked in code open all
day every day for 2 months.
>> Yeah. I think it it felt like it became
a real business once we moved out of
that place. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But it was essential because that's when
we actually built the foundation for for
the product that is today.
>> Yeah. We needed somewhere like which was practical.
practical. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> To actually make the app that we were
going to sell.
>> But also like the room that we were at
was actually like far removed from the
actual windows in in the place.
>> So it's kind of like this like dark
corner. Uh we were there, you know, with
our hoodies on, like just locked in in
the dark, just like shipping for two months.
months.
>> We have a couple of pictures. We should
show some sometime.
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> It's it's it was pretty small.
>> But this was after you guys got like the
angel check from Nathan.
>> Yeah. From JJ.
>> From JJ, not me. Yeah.
>> And what was that first um check?
>> That was It was 400K.
>> So it wasn't a lot. It wasn't like a
huge amount. I mean that's like
a couple of months runway.
>> We can stretch it out.
>> Yeah. I mean we weren't spending that
much. It was just the three of us.
>> It was mostly just like paying ourselves
like you know being able to live. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> That that was the bulk of the It's like
8 months to a year as part of like the
range we were sitting at. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> When you guys receive a check for that
much like what's the first thing that
you do with it? Is it um hiring more
people? Is it expanding and getting um
or sales people or getting more
engineers, investing in a bigger space.
What's the first move that you make when
you have 400k in your hands?
>> Well, I think the biggest mistake is
probably not spending it, right? So, the
what you could do is try and like overly
optimize for um just like salary and
runway. But I think with a small check
like 400k, you're supposed to build your
product, hire one or two people, like
maximum, and then essentially get as far
as you can, and if you can't get
anywhere with it, well, you ran out. New
idea because if you can't get PMF with
it, you're cooked. But with the that
400k, we built the product, we hired
Mariano and Cladio, we launched and I
think we had maybe like 10 or 15
customers right before we um got like
the follow on the the preede. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So we we Yeah. I mean we spent we spent
money on like marketing trying to get
the first like initial um you know 10 15
people signed and and sealed and I think
we achieved PMF by the time that that
kind of like come to uh we were about to
run out of it. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I think typically you want
like to just afford enough time for like
the core founding team to just keep
shipping as long as possible and then
>> again like Louis said either you make it
and you have a product that feels like
it's resonating with your audience or or
you don't.
>> Um but I do agree that like towards the
tail end like if it's already been 10 months
months
>> and you're not really getting anywhere
and you start to just like cut cost and
like try to kind of like
>> extend it like you're better off like
cutting your losses and like resetting. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Or go out with a bang, you know, like
like you tried your hardest. you
actually did as much as possible.
>> Yeah, but you gota be careless with it.
You can't be like, "Oh, I'm too scared
to to >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> to fail and then I'm going to spend very
just it's a slow death, but you're
already on your way to dying." Yeah.
>> Doesn't really help you.
>> Yeah. There's there's not much you have
to do.
>> Um I mean, I remember spending 5k on the
moon in a game
>> that that got that
>> I remember that.
>> Yeah. I'm not sure if you were there.
>> No, you joined right after. Yeah.
>> Yeah. It was right after, right? I think
it's as soon as I joined I heard about
it and like you spent 5k on a moon I was like
like
>> in a game so it wasn't even the real
>> game you know
>> it was like level zio right like he
>> he launched a game or something >> Peter
>> Peter
>> I mean he I I knew that I I can tell you
with like certainty at that point in
time I knew that the the moon itself
wouldn't do anything but I knew that he
would tweet about it
>> right so I knew that it would like get
traction you pay 5k for a tweet from an influencer
influencer
>> yeah that when you put it that way and
it was a pretty cheap deal because he
had like what like 500k followers. Um
the game was already going viral like
people already like this is crazy. He's
making money um from it. No, not a
single person had sponsored it at that
point. So we were the first people to
sponsor a thing in his game. >> Um
>> Um
>> I knew that by if we did it for like 500
bucks, it wouldn't invoke like an
emotional reaction from anyone. Yeah. If
you 5K, people are going to be like,
"These guys are stupid, but they're
going to make themselves very very
they're going to be loud about how
stupid you are, which in turn amplifies everything."
everything."
>> Okay. So, let me ask you like how has
your I think your vision of what to
spend on, what not to spend on like
changed, evolved. Like it's been it's
been I guess how many months? Like six
months? No, roughly since
>> uh the summer. This is like let's say
eight months since we like properly
launched. Uh so now we're you know this
is different our 13 people. How you
thinking about marketing either the same
or different?
>> It's completely different. We we have
PMF now.
>> Before that we were just trying to call
like you know basically be loud to get
people interested in at least like
listening to our idea. Um, now I think
we're much more like trying to optimize
for ROI, whereas 8 months ago we were
optimizing for whatever like pushes the
numbers up like Yeah. the more people
that you have on your weight list or
>> um, you know, the more people tweeting
about it, whatever was going to happen.
We were just trying to optimize on
maximizing that amount of output. Like
what can you get from it? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, now it's like, okay, if we spend,
you know, 10K, can we make 20K? Can we
make 30K from it? So, it's completely
different. Like your mindset is
>> all right, if we spend this, are we
going to be able to double it? >> Yeah,
>> Yeah,
>> that's it.
>> So, I know we we I think across either
past episodes we've done or just like
conversations, we always keep talking
about kind of like the origin of the
company. And >> yeah,
>> yeah,
>> I think we probably like spoken enough
about that period of time. I'm I'm kind
of curious about, you know, kind of if
you fast forward to like today, like
last week, this week, like what are
maybe like the two to three things
you're like most excited about or like
most fired up about the business,
>> whether it's like marketing campaigns or
stuff that's happening in the product.
>> I'm still overly excited about the product.
product. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Like I mean, we're we're shipping like
>> changed a lot, right? So it's like
what's what's kind of like the latest
that you're like that's the thing I'm
really looking forward to that can maybe
change things fundamentally?
Um, I think we're getting to the point
where we we're becoming more mature like
as a company. Yeah. And then we start to
do um more big company things like
having like PR around certain things and
trying to be actually uh trying to move
away from being this like small preede
company to being recognized as like a
okay series A+ you have you know maybe
20 or 50 people you're being mentioned
in like Business Insider. You're being
mentioned on Forbes all of these
different things. Um, so I'm pretty
excited about how we're kind of like
maturing into that. >> Mh.
>> Mh.
>> I think that will
I mean most companies at at the stage,
you know, if we were 3 months ago, maybe
it probably wouldn't have made sense for
us to try and optimize for that.
>> Yeah, 100%.
>> Yeah, I think on the engineering side,
like, you know, we just hired like two
more engineers full-time, full stack.
Uh, both of them are like AI native kind
of coding, right? like and you know
previously it was all of us but then at
some point we started shifting you know
priorities like you work on this you
work on this
>> um like different parts of the business
so then eventually it was just me
basically and you know I also able to
get a lot done but now having two more
people to you know it's basically like
3x the output
>> so like we were already going fast but
now we're going to go like like crazy fast
fast
>> it's kind of crazy I think also like the
scale of the projects that you can take
on now is
>> you almost start to think bigger like
both in terms of product in terms of campaigns
campaigns
>> there's more resources there's more
people behind this you can get to play
>> you get to play startups at almost like
at scale
>> right it's like the amount of the videos
that we're producing like the quality of
them it's like it's like man I can see
this on Netflix like it's it's that good
product that we're building it's like
some of these capabilities are like
>> each one of these new features could be
a product a billion dollar product on
its own merit and same thing with the
sales team it's like and and partnership
like the partnerships that we're landing
this week which we can't talk about yet
but like some of that stuff is like
these are world known brands that are
recognizing us as market leaders and
like it gets you thinking bigger. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean from from my perspective I think
that the biggest change has been uh
essentially every single idea that we
have thought about in the past can
actually come to fruition. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Like before you had maybe five ideas
pick one and run with it and that's what
we can do. But now we can basically run
all of these ideas in parallel.
>> Are you also getting this this issue? I
think I feel like part of what I'm
running into now is you
>> Yes, you're absolutely right. I think
you you you can execute more of your
ideas. So you almost there's like a you
do you ever run out of ideas? Cuz I feel
like I'm kind of getting to a point
where like I come with ideas. It used to
take a while to execute them. Now it's
like we actually get through them very
quickly and I find this moment like
every couple of weeks I have to pause be
like, "Okay, I need to come up with the
next five ideas because we just hit we
just went through all of them." >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I think I'm I'm trying to optimize now
for the one idea that we can just
continuously run with. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. So like getting the agency clips
to, you know, to the end of that and
seeing, okay, will that help us go from
X AR to 100 mil, 200 mil? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. And I think you can, you probably
don't need as many ideas at this point.
You just need one thing or two things
that work really really [ __ ] well and
that's it, right? You run with them.
Keep on going. You push those um like
avenues that are working. That's
>> Yeah. found one of the best sources of
creativity working with the media team
has been when something starts to work
uh rather than see than seeking outside
for like the next shiny object is you
look at the same thing and you ask a
question of what threads are in here
that I can keep pulling
>> and almost like how do we go deeper and
deeper and deeper into the same story
>> to kind of build more context and more
depth because people are already
engaging with it and and I think there's
you know if you get really creative
there's so many more angles and so many
more like sub stories you can even tell
within that story so I completely agree with
with
Yeah, I mean the thing is as well at the
same time all of the the brand is just
growing as well, right? So we go from I
don't know when we first started we had
obviously like no followers on the X
account on the LinkedIn account and as
we like continue to be alive that's
growing consistently and it compounds.
So every everything kind of gets in a in
a weird way. It's harder to find these
things, these one-off things that just
work and push the numbers. But when they
do work, when you find it, it works
really well, right? You continue going
down it. And it's easier to
>> test if something works when you have an
audience there already. When you have
customers there already, they can test
these things. You can um you can AB test
everything. You can see what is actually
pushing these like the numbers up for
us. Whereas when you're a like like pre
PMF or pre-revenue, you have to just
kind of like figure it out. You can't
you can't tell what's really working at
that point until something is working.
>> Yeah. It's probably like it's like
guessing what what's going to be.
>> Yeah. Now you can afford to try more
things out properly all the way and
actually get some some real data instead
of having to make
>> you can be more methodical about it and
track it and make campaigns around it
and figure it out
>> and and usually it leads you to more
success. It's interesting like like
higher rate of success rather. So how do
you feel like you guys have changed
personally in the journey over the last
couple of months? I feel like we've all
kind of matured in a way like there's
things that I think I'm now see
differently and maybe act differently
relative to you know kind of being a
preede founder and now we're essentially
series A founders. Um
>> yeah curious like what have been some
kind of some of your internal changes
and what has been the hardest part about
that process?
I think learning how to like pass down
my like how I think and how I do things
to like the rest of the team. Um to kind
of like empower them to be like what I
was doing basically. So that's like
that's something I've had to work on
that I haven't thought about before. Is
this like skills or is it more like
mindset or
>> Yeah, like skills, mindset. I don't know
like you know engineering is like like
cutting scope or like learning when to
go deep when not to go deep stuff like
that is kind of like to me it makes
sense in my brain. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But it might not make sense to everyone
who you hire. So I think some people
like a big tech mindset type of thing
and they they think of product very
differently than you do in startups. So >> Exactly.
>> Exactly.
>> There's a little bit of a learning curve there.
there.
>> Yeah. Obviously, you need to know when
to when to do something like really
really carefully and then when to like
let it be a little bit rough.
>> Yeah. I remember even when you
transitioned into kind of building your
team that at the beginning you were
you're very locked in on just like
writing code and that's like you're the
way you operate for a really long time
>> and we almost had to I think just like
really convince you to like okay now's
the time to
>> you're going to slow down the amount of
code that you're pushing out on purpose.
>> Yeah. Yeah,
>> I think there were like there was a
period of two weeks where you wrote no
code whatsoever and it was just purely
interviews and recruiting
>> and that was a big shift.
>> Yeah. Yeah. That mean it took me a while
to find the the right people but um I
think it was worth it and but yeah it
was hard kind of like stepping away and
saying you know I'm not going to write a
single line of code even though like I
know I could fix things and I I could do
it but
>> I just didn't have time. Yeah. I was
just focused on we had the same thing
happen in sales as well like when we
first decided to like go scale that team.
team. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> You kind of have to take a hit and know
you have to get a punch in the face for
a couple weeks where like the numbers
are going to look bad.
>> No code's going to go out.
>> Yeah. I think um the biggest change for
me or the the biggest difference I see
like in in terms of maturity is trying to
to
>> be more understanding of people. So it's
like one thing being a four person
company, three or four person company,
it's completely different at 15 and I
can imagine it's just going to get
completely different by the time we have
40 or 50 people. Um so well you guys
know me best probably. I I'm the sort of
person who has in the past like came in
and be like guys we should do this and
I've been completely wrong about it.
changed the my opinion on it, you know,
two weeks later and we've gone in a
different direction, but I still feel
like sometimes I'm like in the back of
my head, I'm like I know I'm right about
it, but I need to almost let people
figure it out themselves rather than
just steamroll the whole kind of like
thing through. Um, but it's hard for me
to to accept that a lot of the time as
well because I'm like in my head I'm
like, well, the the point we're at is so
important that we get it right. if we
get it wrong too many times, we're just
going to end up in this like um like
this this stage of like no growth or
something and you know we have if we
have a down or something like that then
everything's going to suck. Um so in my
head I'm like weighing up, okay, is this
worth actually steamrolling or should I
just let it go and you know let them
figure it out, let someone figure
someone else figure out completely. Um
or should I take the hit and just you
know look like the [ __ ] that's like
coming in like no this is the best idea
like everyone else just stop
>> you know I think I think that's the
hardest thing for me the biggest
difference. Um
>> yeah I feel part of it also like the the the
the
>> the way to run startups is very
different at this stage where at the
very beginning is you almost want to try
a bunch of different ideas. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And you almost need to break things and
not get stuck in a particular kind of
path for too long because otherwise
that's death. Once you hit PMF, it's
like you have to double down on that
path. And right now we're at a stage
where something that we're doing is
working, revenues are growing. There's a
predictable growth machine. So it's
almost counterproductive for us to keep
operating the same way that we were
before where before it was okay, we
should actually consider pivots very
often because that might be the way to win.
win.
>> Now it's almost like the way to win is
to double down on the current thing. So
it feels unnatural when you're used to
you've been used to pivoting and trying
new ideas and new products like
>> you know for years, right? When we were
like you know premiumf.
Yeah, it's interesting to me. I wonder if
if
what if your gut says that the pivot is
the best thing to do even at this stage?
Like would you go with your gut? Would
you trust your gut which is saying okay
100% of your like conviction is actually
yeah this is working but it could be
working a thousand times better if we
did this because I' I've been down that
path at a previous company and I think
>> I think I was wrong. So I think I think
I know approach it with a little bit
more skepticism that like just because
you have an idea doesn't mean you're
right. Um
>> yeah. So like if you kept doubling down
on the thing like it would have turned
out much better actually.
>> I've seen that movie play out where like
the thing that I was doing that I got
impatient. It was more like a lack of patience.
patience. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> That I got impatient and I wanted like
the quick win or the quick 100x.
>> Um and it was it turned out to be more
of a slow grind and I chose to pursue
the quick 100x and that backfired. And
then I look back and there's companies
that actually stayed doing the long
grind and now they're billion dollar
companies. And meanwhile I got impatient and
and
>> yeah that didn't go anywhere.
>> You end up with nothing.
>> Yeah. So so because I've seen that movie
play out in in the flesh
>> now I'm a little bit more skeptical
about chasing the shiny object and
that's why I'm like cautious of like
what stage are you in? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Am I do I have if I figured nothing out
yet? Great. It doesn't matter. There's
there's nothing to lose because you're
already at the bottom. Just like break
it, redo it over and over and over. But
if you already climbed the ladder a
little bit and there's there there's
wind behind your sale, you might as well
like let like write that out and find
non-destructive ways of like trying all
the other stuff on the side.
>> Yeah, it makes sense. I um you know I
think a lot of the the general advice
that people give is like as a founder at
this stage even now it's like trust your
gut, right?
>> Yeah. Like that's like the general kind
of advice that I don't know most like
I mean I think Elon if Elon was going to
say something about trust your gut. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Like he he he who he would go with it
and run with it and do you just accept
the failures as you go along? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> You kind of have to. Um I think at the
end of day like there's three of us so
it's so part of it is like we kind of
have to average our guts
>> because there's more there's more
collective knowledge there at the end of
the day. Um, yeah,
>> I think we're also very good at like we
know which hills we're willing to die on
and which ones we're not. And so we we
present our opinions and if someone
really has conviction and your and the
other person has half conviction,
typically a person with full conviction
will push it through.
>> I think that's a good thing because it
actually means your gut might say
something, but if your gut is only 50/50
and it's not that convincing,
>> you let go of it.
>> Yeah. You might you might backtrack a
little bit. Whereas if your gut is like,
"No, I've actually seen this movie play
out 10 times. I know for I I know for a
fact like I feel extremely strongly
about this. You you you'll probably come
up with a persuasive argument to to
convince the other parties and just get
it get it done. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I think that's why we we're actually
pretty good co-founders like the three
of us. I think that's how it has worked
so far. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Like there's no um single person that's
going to be like
if if I was going to die on the hill, it
had to be a very [ __ ] good reason.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Like and I know that.
>> Yeah. I know. Today we're talking about
the uh our marketing page and whether
what technology we should use, whether
we should use like uh you know, web
flow, some sort of like interactive way
of doing it or writing it by code. I'm
actually not willing to die on that hill.
hill.
>> Um so that's kind of one of those where
I'm just like, you know what, my my gut
says this, but >> yeah,
>> yeah,
>> but it's not that strong. So like, you
know what, you have it. Like it sounds
like you have a little bit of more of
conviction around this.
>> Yeah, we just had a sale.
>> We just heard the gong in the background.
background.
That's the first
>> like we're here we're here podcasting
and like the guys are making money over there.
there.
>> I love it.
>> I mean, wow.
>> Funny how this works.
>> Yeah. How we've how far we've come, you know?
know?
>> See, this would have not happened in
prey. It's like if if we're not pushing,
if we're not doing sales, nothing is
happening now. We can just
>> sit back, drink some old fashions, and
uh ARR is growing. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Have you guys reached a point where you
guys feel like you can leave everything
to the team and things still run the way
that you wanted to or is there a level
of um intervention that you guys still
feel like you guys are keeping with the
rest of the team.
>> Entropy would be the word that I that I
would fall back on. That's a very like
academic way of putting it. But uh I
think the answer is
>> yes and no. And the reason I say that is
because I think in the short term things
will operate well. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But I think if you leave the process
running unsupervised for long enough,
>> it'll begin to kind of like decay and
become its own thing. So there's a big
kind of uh concept in Silicon Valley
around like founder mode and maybe you
guys can touch on that.
>> I I I would say I think it would work
for a while and we may continue to just
like stay where we are for a long time.
Let's say we just completely left right
now. I think we could continue at the
same level of growth and just flatline.
I think that would happen, right? There
wouldn't be the
>> um which is still pretty good. the D.
Yeah, it'd be good, but that's not how
like venturebacked companies work. You
have to be pushing for the 100x here.
>> Yeah, that's it.
>> Um, so I think if we if we just like
went away for two months, I think you'd
probably just see stagnation and that in
it in turn would kill the company. Then
what do you guys think that when you
guys come into work every day, what are
the decisions that you guys are making
while you guys are here and present with
the rest of the team so that it's not
plateauing and we're not 100xing. We're
just growing at a steady pace.
>> I don't know. I think it's just we're
consuming so much information from every
single part of the business, right? that
like one single person that works in one
specific uh field like in the company
it's not going to know all of that have
all that context. So I think having all
that information we're able to make
decisions basically. But um yeah, I
think it's like part of it is like
observing the business and then
diagnosing issues and seeing like where
are people stuck, where are people disconnected
disconnected
>> and where are we pursuing things that
might have
>> maybe created like a like a local maxima
where like we're kind of stuck in place
and then part of our our work is like
just intervening whenever we see someone
kind of like just getting stuck and just
breaking that and reimagining that that
function. I think we kind of rotate
around the business, right? So, I think
one week we might be like really
obsessed around engineering and be like,
"Hey, I think the product feels off."
Like there's something that's just not
quite clicking yet and then let's put
our heads together and fix that.
>> The next week we might be looking at
sales and be like, "Hey, you know what?
I think the way we're doing our our
demos is not really as effective as it
can be and let's let's reimagine like
maybe the people there need something
else to enable them to to do better."
So, I think it's part of observing,
diagnosing, and then just kind of
>> rotating around the business and doing
that constantly. Yeah,
>> I think there's something about hiring
leaders as well. So like as we as we go,
we hire really good people, people that
you could imagine like letting certain
functions just be ran by and then trusting
trusting
almost trusting like their instincts as
well. So like for example with sales um
you know I'm happy to kind of take a
step back from it at this point because
I know that the person I've hired to run
the sales function
>> is aligned with what I like truly think
needs to happen in that team. Um, and if
they are, you know, if if you can go
from being do doing that thing every
single day and like, you know, looking
at the numbers and being on those calls,
if as long as I can see like some uh
like the numbers growing to the the
levels that I have in my head, then
there's no problem there. You focus
completely on something else. And until
you start to see, okay, is this now
dipping? Is like the are the sales going
down, right? is um did did we grow 20%
in one month and then next month only
grow 10%. And then be like okay now I'm
going to take a look at this and figure
out what happened there get it back on
track how can we actually like you know
get it better going forward. Um but for
me I mean most of the
most of the the time I kind of just like
prioritize based on like my gut
especially at the moment I think there's
nothing um we're still involved in
pretty much every single team. Yeah, but
I think every every day that we come
into the office, I think part of what
we're really looking for is how can we I
mean this is constant, but like how can
we 10x 100x this business? That's a
fundamental question. We look at our
numbers and we're like, okay, next month
we know we got to beat that by at least 30%.
30%. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. Month over month over month for
the for the next couple of years. That's
a that's a tall order. So essentially
like from our perspective, it's like how
do we how do we 10x this business? What
are the levers there? So if we look at
sales, it's like is there an opportunity
here to 10X? Look at engineering. What
are the opportunities here to 10x? So I
think part of our gut is trained on
identifying areas where like that
doesn't feel like it's going to achieve
that 10x growth and then asking that
question again day after day after day.
>> And you need to make sure that every
single team is like being brought up
every time, right? No, no one falls behind.
behind.
>> Yeah. It's kind of like a seesaw. You
bring up this team, the other two teams
are behind. Now we got to bring them up
and now we got to bring these guys up.
And then you do it again. You push this
team even higher. Have to repeat the process.
process.
>> Yeah. It's a constant push
>> and and at the same time have a fresh
mind to keep on innovating with it as
well. Yeah.
>> So, I mean, every new feature that we
add, I think it's pretty there's a
decent amount of like thought put into it.
it.
>> Yeah. That we think about, okay, what
would this actually push in terms of
sales? Like if
>> if we're going to, you know, invest
engineering time into like a feature or
fixing something, is even going to be is
that feature going to bring in more
sales? Is it going to help the sales
team um actually sell the product? Will
it make them more efficient in selling
it? Um will it look better for our
customers? will they um actually want to
use it? Will it get used? And then
there's the um like the bug side of it,
right? Like when we fix something, is
that going to is is it necessary to fix
it right now or is it going to fix a a
massive like inefficiency for like the
customer success team?
>> Right. I think we're pretty good like
spotting that as well. I'm not sure
anyone else would be able to to do that
like from the outside right now.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think we're very like
direct with like
>> Yeah. No, this is this shouldn't be
fixed right now. This we should fix. Um
and then prior comes from experience
from I don't know from doing it for a
long time.
>> Yeah. I think also when we talk about
kind of like okay if we step out of the
business like do we trust that it will
continue to grow exponentially as it is
and the answer is not really. I feel
like things were was stagnate but I
don't think that's necessarily like
saying anything bad about the team. I
think the team is is great. I think it's
more, you know, we've spent the last
decade of our lives like building
products and essentially playing the the
role of an entrepreneur. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I'm definitely sure if you brought in
great entrepreneurs, they could grow it. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But I also recognize that like the
people that we have on the team have
typically given just like subject matter
experts in in their own craft. So like
they spend time doing sales, they spend
time doing >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> you know, media engineering, whatever.
And it's like you still need the
component of
>> you need all three.
>> You need all three. You still need
someone to be constantly questioning how
do we 10x like that's a role that needs
to exist. So if we take out that role of
course I think over time you you stop
>> you know pushing the boundary that high.
Yeah, everything would continue as
normal, which you can't, you know, you
can't really fault that, but your job as
a founder is to make sure that things
are growing, not continuing as normal,
right? I mean, >> the
>> the
>> Yeah, I mean, it's not a bad thing.
Like, I feel like the team that we hired
are are [ __ ] awesome. Every single
person in the company is like an A
player. Truly an A player. Um but
there's a disconnect between like okay
you hire like a great sales leader you
hire a great marketing leader you hire
um you know a great founding engineer
are they all going to work together
right and that's that's the thing that I
would yeah be okay um like sure they'll
work together but will they be aligned
on okay how do we 10x the company in the
next you know 3 months
>> I think the the the way I see it in my
head is like there's kind of two types
of people. There's like people that
create chaos and people that create
stability. And I think as entrepreneurs,
like you typically create chaos, like
you come in and you break things like
you see you see a habit or a process and
you're not afraid to question it and be
like, let's actually do it differently.
Let's throw it out the window and start
a new one. At the same time, we want to
hire people who create more stability in
the business. And that's where it's
like, okay, if you've been doing sales
for 10 years, come and help us learn how
to use these systems and create a
process that stabilizes the chaos so we
have a predictable machine for growth.
And you kind of need both.
>> So I think a lot of people that we've
hired tend to be like really good at
creating stability in the business and
predictability, but we we know every now
and then we need to kind of step in
there and and and stir things up, which
makes them uncomfortable, but it's kind
of necessary necessary function.
>> It is what it is.
>> Yeah, it's going to happen.
>> Yeah, I'm excited for the next like two
years. Like I think I think all three of
us would be would happily say like the
next two years of of what we are
specifically building is going to be cracked.
cracked.
>> Yeah. Like there's no there's no doubt
in my mind that
>> we will be a billion dollar company in
like 18 months from now. >> Yeah,
>> Yeah,
>> I can see it.
>> Yeah, I will be more surprised that that
did not happen than than that it did.
>> How does that feel? How does that make
you feel knowing that in 18 months from now?
now?
>> It's kind of It's weird to say, but I
kind of don't know how to feel about it.
It's kind of just happening and I don't
have too much time to acknowledge it if
that makes sense. We're kind of just
like in the moment. I I will say I'm
very fulfilled and I'm very happy and
we're just kind of kind of showing up
every day.
>> At the same time, it's kind of hard
because we we're constantly on each
other's throats about many many things.
We disagree a lot and that makes it like
>> it's it's a weird tension between
you like you're winning and that feels awesome.
awesome. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But winning is still difficult because
you have to perform at your best and
deal with uncomfortable situations. So,
it's it's a very complicated like mixed
bag of feelings that somehow produces
fulfillment even though it's not easy in
the moment. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. There's a lot of decisions to make
all the time and like you said, you
might not agree with them all the time. And
And
>> look, I don't we're working like
extremely long weeks every single week
and there's moments like I remember like
two three weeks ago, I think it was like
like a Wednesday and I'm like I I can't
move for you like I need I need at least
one day to breathe. Um which by the way
I did not take. I still had to show up
to the office the next day.
But, you know, that's that's how how
that's how hard we're pushing, but but
at the same time, I don't question it
because it's it's pulling you in and you
just want to keep winning and it feels
awesome to win. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I I always feel like I have bipolar with
with with being the CEO and the founder.
Like some days I'm like, "God damn, I
hate being a CEO." The next day like,
"Okay, this is great."
>> All right. Like, okay, we're actually
doing something here.
>> Uh, I think you probably just get used
to that. I think most people would would
probably feel the same. Like regardless
of the situation, regardless of the
>> um people that you're working with, like
it's just it is an uncomfortable thing
to do. Like founding a company is is an
uncomfortable thing to do and it's
probably going to get more uncomfortable
as time goes on until we you're at a
point where okay, you already have, you
know, hundreds of of millions of dollars
in your bank account personally.
>> All right. And that's probably the thing
that's probably not spoken about as
much. founders get into, you know, okay,
$200 million valuation, $500 million
valuation, and a billion dollar
valuation. Yeah.
>> Right. Like, you have to really get to
the billion dollar valuation before you
personally see like the the side effects
from it, right?
>> Like it's it's all well and good being
valued at X amount, but are you liquid?
No. So you you have the pressure of
running a $200 million valued company,
but you still have, you know, a a basic
salary, um a basic kind of um
you know, you don't have a Lambo yet.
You don't have we don't have a yacht
yet, right? So you have to do all of the
shitty things while still carrying the
weight of it as well of running of
running that at the time.
>> Yeah. And it's like extremely delayed
gratification basically or reward I
guess in that
>> I'm a big fan of extremely delayed gratification.
gratification.
>> It's going to be exciting when it gets there.
there.
>> I mean I mean we'll see though like even
the company building itself like forget
the money the money aspect but like even
what we're doing today is like still
fun. So it's some parts are delayed. I
think the the financial return is delayed.
delayed.
>> The financial return is delayed. I'm
like sat here crying.
>> This [ __ ] sucks. I'm sat here in a
suit bringing an oldfashioned uh
>> 5:00 p.m. on a what is it? Thursday.
>> Yeah. We're about to fly somewhere nice
tomorrow. Yeah.
>> This this job's hard.
>> Yeah. Boohoo.
>> [ __ ] [ __ ] >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So you guys get to that billion dollar
valuation. So you you said that
>> you want to get there or you believe
that we'll get there within 18 months,
right? So then to get there, what sort
of milestones do you guys as founders
set for yourselves personally, for the
team? Um for the leadership.
>> 30% month over month growth. >> 100%.
>> 100%.
>> That's pretty much it.
>> M That's it.
>> Um yeah, I don't think anyone really
truly thinks about like that far in
advance. Like I
>> it's really hard to think that far out. >> Um
>> Um
>> I mean
>> the the rate of change that we have in
the start in this startup is is insane. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Like one month is completely different
from the other month
>> both market people proc like internally
like the company is completely different
in the last two months.
>> Yeah. to try to predict >> y
>> y
>> how we're going to get there exactly is
is impossible.
>> I do think we we place our bets at at
the highest level which is like okay
strategically like what are the things
that enable us to go after a much bigger market
market
>> and that takes months to materialize. I
think that's maybe where we operate
more. So
>> our our kind of like shift you know more
into cyber security over the next couple
of months I think is a big one.
>> Um that definitely opens up like a giant
new revenue stream. So I think those
those bets we can make.
>> Yeah. Um, but yeah, in the tactical,
like there's no way you can predict
what's going to happen.
>> We can predict maybe two months or three.
three.
>> When I said 18 months, by the way, I was
being generous. I actually think it
could be a lot quicker than that. So, I
I think we could be at billion.
>> We've only been around for
>> eight months. I mean,
>> yeah. But also
>> to think it would take 18 to get to a
billion. I don't think so. I think it's
going to be a lot faster.
>> Yeah. And and actually, is it easier to
get to that billion dollar valuation
now? I mean, it's much harder going from
zero to 100. The first three months we
were actually just figuring out BMF, you know.
know.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And now we have it. We have
money in the bank.
>> It's a machine. We know we know where to
put Yeah. Where where to press harder.
>> Yeah. You just Yeah. You just keep
doubling down on what you're doing and
you'll get there
>> a lot faster than you think. I'm fired
up and I want to get back to work.
>> Yeah. I mean, look, I mean, genuinely,
there's no reason that we
>> when I when I think about it, okay, to
get to a billion dollar valuation, you
have to like what? 5x.
>> Doesn't sound that hard to me. Yeah.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> It's easy. You know, it's got to be
easier than zero to 100. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I think so. I think so. But also,
it's like you're not you're not
searching in the unknown. Like you
already know the inputs.
>> That was just world class execution,
finding the best people.
>> Yeah. Making sure you hire good people
and and >> yeah,
>> yeah,
>> trusting your gut in some situations. Um
allowing yourself to be wrong in
different situations. Um you know,
trusting the team that you have built.
>> I think that's it. That's all you can
do. That's probably been the hardest
transition for me is going from like a
oneman show kind of like trusting myself
to get everything done to no I'm a
full-time recruiter and my job is more
to just give people stuff to do and then
you're almost like it's a different way
of feeling valuable in the business. >> Yeah,
>> Yeah,
>> it's taking me a little bit.
>> I definitely felt weird after hiring
like good sales people. I was like,
"Okay, well now I'm not going to be
doing Yeah. You feel like, okay, I'm a
bit lost." But I think after a week or
two, I was immediately like, "Okay,
actually, I know what I've got to do
now." Yeah, that's it.
>> I wonder how many um like founders fail
at that point, I I I could imagine it's
like a decent amount like a good amount
of people probably like, "Fuck, what do
I do now?" >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And then just kind of like give up.
>> How did you decide what your next point was
was
>> when you hired when you hired everyone
for the sales team? How did you know
what you needed to do? I think it was
more around like, okay, put in place a
great team to do like the the demos and
actually sell the product. Now, it's
more about figuring out how we continue
to hire those people and how we get them
each individual like hired to contribute
a certain amount of ARR so we can get to
the goals that we want to hit. So, it's
more about like setting targets, making
sure that those hires are great at what
they do. And then you can kind of like
you you know that that's not going to
take you you know 60 hours a week. So
you you know maybe that's a couple of
hours a week where you spend time on
that and the rest of the time is
basically figuring out how like how I
can maximize like get the maximum out of
it and then figuring everything else out
at the same time. So again, annoying
people in marketing, annoying people in
engineering as opposed to just focusing
on sales cuz there was a long time when
I all I did at comp was sales calls. I
mean there was like what like a four
month, five month period where every
single day I would do 10 or 15 calls and
that was it. Back toback sales calls
every single day. No one else was there
to to to do it. No one else was going to
do it for me. Um, so it was almost like
I was in like a rut of doing it. Like I
knew it would work. When do you stop
doing that? Like when is the right time
as the founder who is good at doing the
the sales side of it?
When is the right time to pull the
trigger and say, "I'm actually going to
stop doing it. I'm going to figure out
who else can do it and then go from
there." I think it's probably the the I
don't know there there's no way of me
saying that that was the right time but
I felt like it was and my gut said it
okay now is the time to step back and I
think I was right
>> I think it was also out of necessity I
remember we um
>> we didn't have enough yeah there's not
enough time in the day to service every
>> Oh yeah we had to go do something else
and then that took most of our time and then
then
>> it was just out of necessity where like
other things needed to be taken care of
and we just have to hire that seat only
this can happen.
>> Yeah. I think same thing with
engineering. It's like we really try to
like push it like as far as it went
before we had to hire and then
>> Yeah. Yeah. At some point it was just
there's so many feature requests or
whatever like work that needs to be done that
that
>> but now it's kind of the opposite can't
do it.
>> Now it's like if you have money in the
bank it's like how aggressively and how
fast can I deploy this capital. I think
one thing that happened as soon as we
started getting more more money
available to us was
>> you realize it's actually not as easy to
spend money as you think.
>> Yeah. because it's not as easy to find
great people as as as it seems
initially. It's like, oh, as soon as we
have money, we can hire great people.
No, you still have to find great people
and convince them to join your company
and then it takes them time to actually
made a decision to move and relocate and
stuff like that.
>> Dude, that's the worst part about a
company. It's like the waiting around to
hire people to
>> It's like we have the money just we just
want the people.
>> There's a there's a lag. Do
>> you remember Do you remember the
videographer we hired a couple of months
ago? I can't quite remember his name. Yeah.
Yeah.
>> And he was like, you know, he was going
to start a couple of weeks after his
like when he moved to New York or
whatever. And I messaged him like,
"Yeah, so I'm going to need you today."
And he was like, "Yeah."
>> Made us wait about 2 months or something
like that.
>> Yeah. But dude, that time I was just
like, "I just want to I want to be
moving." You know, there's like this
like inner like need to just
>> It's like how much is it going to cost me?
me? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> To cut that time in half.
>> Like is there anything I can do to make
this happen tomorrow?
>> Cut a number on it.
>> Yeah. You'd be surprised at the amount
of times that I would happily pay X
amount of money to have something happen
just quicker because all right, let's
say it doesn't work out, you can fail
fast. Like there's value in that, >> right?
>> right? >> Um
>> Um
>> but if if you're onto a winning horse,
okay, like you've got something
>> either way. Yeah. If it doesn't work
out, you found out sooner and you didn't
find out, you know, 3 months later that
it wasn't going to work out. You found out
out
>> almost right away.
>> I'm I'm the most impatient person. You
guys probably can vouch for that, right?
There's benefits and there's drawbacks.
>> Dude, I'm like, I want it to happen now.
I want to happen tomorrow.
>> In some cases, it's actually like great
energy. In other cases, it's like
>> certain things just take take time. And
those things you have to just kind of
let them >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> let them marinate.
>> Yeah. I think we need to like I think we
know like when something needs to be
>> there's no sense for it to be quick.
>> But but the answer is like there just
literally there is no formula. There's
no like there's no rule that we can
write to like how you make these
decisions. is like every single time
it's going to have to be a conversation.
>> We're going to have to compare notes. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, I mean, we truly do know how to
make a decision. The wheel.
>> The wheel. True.
>> If it comes down to it, yes.
>> I wonder how many people would freak out
knowing how many decisions we made with
a random wheel generator.
>> Like a little name picker. You put
names. Yeah.
>> Or decisions and whatever.
>> Spin around.
>> Who did we hire because of that?
>> We literally had like what, like three
candidates we really liked. So, we put
three names in the the the wheel. You
spin it.
>> We spun it. And then we actually hired
the person that came out.
>> I mean, listen, if it's a tie, that'll
at least get you to the decision quicker.
quicker.
>> Yeah, they were all equally as good.
>> We could we could have argued about it
for like two or three days or we could
have just said, "All right, well, we all
have convictions. Let the wheelie fortune."
fortune."
>> Yeah. I mean, there's there's value in randomness.
randomness.
>> And if you think about it, you don't
want to hire an unlucky person.
>> You know, that's
I'm glad I don't want to hire unlucky
people, right? If they can't pass the
the the the 50/50 coin flip, then skills.
skills.
>> That was fake.
>> They had no idea it happened, but Skill is
is
the inner workings.
>> Can we get sued for that? >> No.
>> No.
>> It's literally the most fair the fairest
way to hire
>> is the fairest way, but also it's it's
like ironically like smart from the
perspective of what you don't want to
do. If you're 50/50 in a decision, the
last thing you want to do is argue about
that for for for 2 weeks trying to
figure out how to get it to 5149. Like
that's just not productive.
>> If you're already a 50/50,
>> just make it random.
>> Spin a wheel, roll the dice, flip a coin.
coin.
>> Would invest freak out?
>> Do you think they would?
>> I think they'd love it. I think they'd [ __ ]
[ __ ]
>> love it. Oh, you're making quick
decisions. You're not getting stuck.
You're actually making progress.
>> You kind of have to be so stupid to try
it out. And they're like, "Okay, this
idea is so stupid. It might just work,
right? I I think that I think
>> it's 50/50. It's just like either one
either one could could have worked.
We're just if it's truly 50/50, then
then it's good. Honestly, it's part of
the secret about how we move so fast.
It's like we just don't get stuck in
this like >> indecision.
>> indecision.
>> I cannot believe we've let this
incredible alpha of how to run a company
out. Like we've just given away billion
dollar thing.
>> Bet people
are not going to do it.
>> They get to they get too attached to
their laugh at it. We're stupid
>> and they're not going to do It's It's
actually genius.
>> They're going to debate it for a couple
weeks. They're not going to find PMF. I
bet you 50/50 of the audience are going
to say it's >> [ __ ]
>> [ __ ]
>> It's It's genius and people are going to
say it's stupid. >> Correct.
>> Correct. >> So,
>> So,
>> we'll find out on the on the socials.
>> Yeah, we will.
>> All right. What are you guys What are
you guys looking most forward to as we
wrap up towards the end of the year?
>> What's top of mind?
>> Um, I think we're going to close off the
year really strong in terms of revenue.
>> Yeah. super excited about next year is I
think we're going to completely blow out
like whatever our expectations are for
revenue next year. It's going to be
Yeah, I think we're set up unimaginable.
The team is ramping up. So, I I believe that.
that.
>> Yeah. I'm kind of sad that the holidays
are coming up just cuz I don't want to
take like a day or two off. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Like I hate the weekends.
>> You know, you know, I'm surprised is
that people have not requested time off.
>> Yeah. I did I say this last time? I may
have just said it may have just been a
conversation I had during the week. Um,
I really wasn't expecting any of the
like the last couple of hires that we
made to really be like that like startup grind
grind
>> and so locked in.
>> Yeah. I I didn't expect it. I genuinely
felt like okay, we're like 15 people,
you know, we're going to hire hiring a
couple of people that were, you know, >> employees.
>> employees.
>> They've never Well, they've never been
like they've never worked like a very
early stage startup. So, there's always
that risk of them being like, "You guys
are [ __ ] nuts. There's no way I'm
going to work until 9:00 p.m."
>> And we didn't really set the expectation
of it in a way. We just kind of did it
ourselves and then they have naturally
done it like themselves, right? Everyone
is here late. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And I think there there there is
something there that like just tells me,
okay, that's how I know that we've built
a cracked out team.
>> Yeah. because these these um you know
the last couple of hires were were from
like you know like series A series B
companies where is much more relaxing
you know it's always like big tech right
it wasn't that
>> you have everyone's locked in and and
everyone is like really really like
moving like how things are working here
>> yeah like
>> I don't think anyone's ever been in that position
position
>> you know you know what I keep hearing
from people is like they they come in
here and it's it's it's more about the
culture culture and the culture of
ownership that we've created where I
think from at least like three different
people I've heard like they've they've
learned more in the last like two months
of working at comp than they did in the
last year at a previous job and it just
like the amount of
>> sort of wins and just experience is
really just compressed so they really
feel like they're doing their their
life's best work and that kind of like
draws you in to you naturally want to
work until 9 p.m.
>> because this is this is really the best
job you've ever had in your life. So I
think that that's just a lot about kind
of you know the the foundation that
we've set at the company. I think
>> part to me part of the challenge is as
we think ahead at okay right now we're
okay 13 50 people or something like
that. As we think about building you
know 100 person organization a thousand
person organization how do you maintain that
that
>> where like every person that joins just
feels like this is the best job I've
ever had in my life.
>> General consensus is that you can't but
we don't we don't believe that right? I
think we can get to 500 people.
>> I don't think people have tried harder.
I don't think people have tried it's
like they give up and then they they
hire a bunch of you know MBAs and
consultants to try to like
>> you know create culture and I don't
think that's how you do it. I think it
starts with the founders and I think
>> if you look at a lot of companies in
Silicon Valley like frankly a lot of
them are like Ivy League Andesies dude
like they just don't have
>> MIT Andes as we like to refer.
>> They just they just don't have the
drive. They just don't have the drive.
They just don't have the the taste. They
just don't have the culture for it. And
I think that's one of the things that
we've we've prioritized from day one. I
think we'll continue to do and and if we
ever fail, then we shouldn't be, you
know, running the company. We we should
let someone better at culture like do it
than us. But I find that hard to believe
that that will ever happen.
>> There's no one else who's going to spend
a load of money on these suits and old
fashions and a podcast for it. That
would do it, you know.
>> There you go. Yeah.
>> Zero chance.
>> Do we have an electric guitar lying
around here? Yes.
>> Does anyone know how to play it? Not one
of us, but I
>> think someone in the team does. But we
could learn. We could learn. We're going
to We are going to learn.
>> We are going to learn.
>> We're going to make a band. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Best goddamn band.
>> Yes. Got the bass and the drums coming.
>> True story. It is true. True story. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Will we be headlining the Compai
Festival? Yes.
>> The Compest.
>> The Compest.
>> Yes. Doesn't sound very good, but >> sounds
>> sounds terrible.
terrible.
>> In my head, I was like, the compound?
And I was like, that's kind of sus, you
know? I'm I'm not sure.
>> We'll come up with a better name. We got
a little bit tired. Yeah.
>> Um Damn.
>> More to come.
>> I think every single person that we
hire, we should make them watch We Crashed.
Crashed.
>> Like there should be like a requirement
before you join.
>> Cautionary tale.
>> Yeah. This is it. >> [ __ ]
>> God damn it. Um No, I mean it's it it's
it I think at least like the the first
like two or three episodes. All right.
Sure. They [ __ ] up towards the end,
but they got the culture right. They got
the team building right. Like everyone
there was bought into it. And
>> I watch it. I watch a couple of episodes
of it. And even not just We Crash, but
like um you know the the social network,
the the Spotify TV show, I can't
remember the name of it. Like any I
watch any of those TV shows or like
docuer around like these cracked out companies.
companies.
>> These are iconic companies.
>> Like it excites me. Like I'm like [ __ ]
yeah. I just want to go in. I want to
listen to Katy Perry on the way into
work that like morning, you know, I'm
like hyping myself up, beating on my
chest, you know, like I'm just [ __ ]
ready to go and and own it. That's it. >> Yeah,
>> Yeah,
>> everyone should come into work like that.
that.
>> No, I I do think that I mean iron
ironically or unironically I think
that's actually what we're building and
I think that is how people feel kind of working.
working.
>> I mean that is why they work, you know,
hard and they work late because
>> they're motivated. They I think part of
it is like seeing how fast we move and
the growth and it's very exciting. You
know, like in the middle of the podcast,
we heard the Gong go.
>> Yeah. But you you know what's weird is
like we we never we never come into
workplace like how do we motivate
people? Like that's it's not like the
the cringe like you know like how do we
how do we how do we bring in Tony
Robbins to like kind of get everyone
excited? Like we don't do that. Like
we're just we're just being ourselves
and we're prioritizing
>> like a fun environment. Frankly, it's
like we're just like what what is funny?
What is fun? And then we just like
invest in that and then that draws
people in because they're naturally
interested and be part of
>> think we do fun stuff but we also
include people in our fun.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Want to share it's not just
we're keeping all the fun
>> we want to share the journey with with
with everyone that that's part of the team.
team. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Quick question for you both. Have you
ever worked like could you see yourself
working for compai at this stage? And I
think that's what I kind of like ask
myself on how to like make a cracked out
company. Yeah. Like I genuinely think,
okay, um at least like once or twice a
week, if I was in um one of the sales
guys shoes, would I actually want to
work for this company? And every single
time right now, I convinced myself,
yeah, sounds like hella fun.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> But also like have you ever worked at a
startup at that stage like yourselves?
Cuz you worked at Weiwork, right? Yeah,
I worked at Weiwork, but then I've also
worked at a series A startup and I've
also worked at at other companies and
even even my own startups before. But
sometimes I flip the script. >> Um,
>> Um,
>> and I'm like even what we're doing now,
I compare it to what some of these
companies were and I'm like
>> some of that stuff was kind of cringe
what they used to do that I think we're
doing way better. So I
>> I 100% wish I had this experience like >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> I think I think the best comparison I've
had that was that was actually positive
was We Work. We Work was actually a
fantastic place to work.
>> You were there when there was how many
people? Uh I think over a thousand
>> but could you how great would it have
been being in the first like 20?
>> Uh epic epic because the things you get
to see man it's just like the the
journey itself is just
>> to go from I mean when I was there was
already a giant compound. It's like
massive amounts of people infrastructure
it's like over 50 buildings in New York
City. It was just it was just epic like full-blown scale. Um and that was
full-blown scale. Um and that was awesome. But imagine being part of the
awesome. But imagine being part of the team that built that
team that built that >> and you got to see it kind of pop up and
>> and you got to see it kind of pop up and then you have the memory of a couple
then you have the memory of a couple months ago when that wasn't there and
months ago when that wasn't there and then it starts happening and it keeps
then it starts happening and it keeps happening in front of you. And
happening in front of you. And >> in a way I kind of feel like our journey
>> in a way I kind of feel like our journey has been a little bit like that. Like we
has been a little bit like that. Like we were just talking about mind space and
were just talking about mind space and then the apartment and this is all in
then the apartment and this is all in the span of like
the span of like >> honestly within the last 5 months I
>> honestly within the last 5 months I think we touched every single one of
think we touched every single one of those offices.
those offices. >> Yeah. 100%. and and we went from three
>> Yeah. 100%. and and we went from three people to 13 and now I think by next
people to 13 and now I think by next year we'll be like by next time we'll
year we'll be like by next time we'll probably be like around
probably be like around >> 30 40 I don't know and then it just
>> 30 40 I don't know and then it just keeps going.
keeps going. >> It's got to be crack.
>> It's got to be crack. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I remember we had some
>> Yeah. Yeah. I remember we had some people that we like interviewed in the
people that we like interviewed in the old office
old office >> and then once they actually joined they
>> and then once they actually joined they actually came to the new office.
actually came to the new office. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> So like they got to see like how fast we
>> So like they got to see like how fast we transitioned to the new office
transitioned to the new office >> and completely different and you know
>> and completely different and you know >> Yeah. That just blows people's minds and
>> Yeah. That just blows people's minds and like I think
like I think >> and we were telling them back then we're
>> and we were telling them back then we're like we're going to get a new office
like we're going to get a new office soon and they're like oh yeah yeah like
soon and they're like oh yeah yeah like a bit sus about it like you guys have an
a bit sus about it like you guys have an apartment right now
apartment right now >> like who who the hell would they accept
>> like who who the hell would they accept a job
a job >> you know I I think there's actually like
>> you know I I think there's actually like there's actually two buckets of
there's actually two buckets of employees like one bucket is like
employees like one bucket is like >> people that are like straight out of
>> people that are like straight out of college like more like early stage
college like more like early stage employees that like come to this and
employees that like come to this and they're going to believe that their
they're going to believe that their experience at Compai is normal
experience at Compai is normal >> they're going to be cooked
>> they're going to be cooked >> and they're going to be very
>> and they're going to be very disappointed when they go out go out and
disappointed when they go out go out and find their next job after they leave
find their next job after they leave comp or whatever whatever happens.
comp or whatever whatever happens. >> I mean, it's impossible to find.
>> I mean, it's impossible to find. >> And on the other hand, you have people
>> And on the other hand, you have people that are like a little bit late stage
that are like a little bit late stage career and like they've worked [ __ ] jobs
career and like they've worked [ __ ] jobs and now they come here and they're like,
and now they come here and they're like, "This is great.
"This is great. >> Yeah, this is awesome. I'm going to
>> Yeah, this is awesome. I'm going to cherish this."
cherish this." >> So, I feel bad for the first bucket cuz
>> So, I feel bad for the first bucket cuz I am going to be very very disappointed
I am going to be very very disappointed to find out the world this way.
to find out the world this way. >> I I had that with my first ever job out
>> I I had that with my first ever job out of school. Out of school, I I worked for
of school. Out of school, I I worked for this company for 4 years and I loved
this company for 4 years and I loved every Well, I I hated it at the time,
every Well, I I hated it at the time, ironically. Like, I I didn't enjoy it
ironically. Like, I I didn't enjoy it that much. I did like the the social
that much. I did like the the social side of it. I loved that bit of it. The
side of it. I loved that bit of it. The work was very boring. After I left that
work was very boring. After I left that job, I realized, god damn, not every
job, I realized, god damn, not every single company is going to be like that.
single company is going to be like that. And I chased it for years. You know, I I
And I chased it for years. You know, I I hopped around for a couple of years
hopped around for a couple of years trying to find like the same the same
trying to find like the same the same feeling as working at that company. That
feeling as working at that company. That like small tight like group that I had.
like small tight like group that I had. >> And I, you know, I felt lost for like
>> And I, you know, I felt lost for like four years after [ __ ] hate this. I
four years after [ __ ] hate this. I went to the second job that I had, the
went to the second job that I had, the second company I worked for, and there
second company I worked for, and there was maybe 200 people. It's like, you
was maybe 200 people. It's like, you know, still a startup, I guess. It
know, still a startup, I guess. It wasn't that many people, but the culture
wasn't that many people, but the culture was just so dead. Like, I just I
was just so dead. Like, I just I couldn't stand it. It was the worst
couldn't stand it. It was the worst place I've ever worked at.
place I've ever worked at. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And then I was like, "Okay, that's fine.
>> And then I was like, "Okay, that's fine. Maybe this is just a dub
Maybe this is just a dub >> for a job." I was like, "What have I
>> for a job." I was like, "What have I got? What have I got on myself? What
got? What have I got on myself? What have I done?
have I done? >> Can I go back?" you know, I I genuinely
>> Can I go back?" you know, I I genuinely in my head I was like like is there a
in my head I was like like is there a way back to that like role at that time?
way back to that like role at that time? >> And I don't think there would have been
>> And I don't think there would have been and I'm glad that that I didn't. But um
and I'm glad that that I didn't. But um I've always kind of chased
I've always kind of chased >> that feeling and I finally feel like
>> that feeling and I finally feel like I've got that back
I've got that back >> at comp.
>> at comp. >> Yeah. And that makes you appreciate it,
>> Yeah. And that makes you appreciate it, man. Like you'll do anything that you
man. Like you'll do anything that you can to protect it.
can to protect it. >> You know, we have we have a great time.
>> You know, we have we have a great time. We we're we're solving important
We we're we're solving important interesting things. like we are building
interesting things. like we are building a cracked out company but at the same
a cracked out company but at the same time the people that we've hired the
time the people that we've hired the people that I mean you two I love
people that I mean you two I love working with you guys I enjoy being in
working with you guys I enjoy being in your presence we do great things
your presence we do great things together I mean what else what what more
together I mean what else what what more can you want and I think when you have
can you want and I think when you have it you may not realize it at the time
it you may not realize it at the time >> but after that you're cooked like I I
>> but after that you're cooked like I I you know let's say I'm like you know
you know let's say I'm like you know what these these two douchebags they
what these these two douchebags they they annoy me all the time no one no one
they annoy me all the time no one no one no one ever agrees with me
no one ever agrees with me >> we do they do right no No one ever
>> we do they do right no No one ever agrees with me, I'm I'm out,
agrees with me, I'm I'm out, >> right?
>> right? >> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> I I I can I can feel that same thing
>> I I I can I can feel that same thing happening. I like, damn, you know, I'm
happening. I like, damn, you know, I'm going to I would regret it for the rest
going to I would regret it for the rest of my life,
of my life, >> right? Like you're going to be like,
>> right? Like you're going to be like, what did I do?
what did I do? >> Yeah. I think I think I mean, frankly, I
>> Yeah. I think I think I mean, frankly, I have moments like that, too, where I'm
have moments like that, too, where I'm just like kind of
just like kind of >> like, ah, like, you know, I I think I
>> like, ah, like, you know, I I think I have a good idea trying to push it and
have a good idea trying to push it and then there's friction on both sides and
then there's friction on both sides and I'm like, do I really need to be dealing
I'm like, do I really need to be dealing with this? Um,
with this? Um, >> yeah, it used to be easy.
>> yeah, it used to be easy. >> Yeah. Yeah. But I think I think the
>> Yeah. Yeah. But I think I think the moment you take a step back, you just
moment you take a step back, you just realize like like we have something so
realize like like we have something so good going and
good going and >> and at the end of the day, couple months
>> and at the end of the day, couple months down the road, you're like, you know
down the road, you're like, you know what, it was the right decision. You're
what, it was the right decision. You're not even going to remember.
not even going to remember. >> Yeah. Yeah. You just got to you just got
>> Yeah. Yeah. You just got to you just got to not get caught up in like the heat of
to not get caught up in like the heat of of of this small things. Again, are you
of of this small things. Again, are you willing to die on this hill? Like by
willing to die on this hill? Like by mean like literally die. Um
mean like literally die. Um >> no. Like like the answer is like what
>> no. Like like the answer is like what we've created here in the macro lens is
we've created here in the macro lens is like it's special.
like it's special. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Like I want to keep going.
>> Like I want to keep going. >> You're such a worldsmith. The macro.
>> You're such a worldsmith. The macro. >> The macro. He's the academic. He's
>> The macro. He's the academic. He's wearing the the turtleneck. You know, I
wearing the the turtleneck. You know, I am the professor. You brought the whole
am the professor. You brought the whole >> It's giving MIT.
>> It's giving MIT. >> Yes. That's like I've gone too far.
>> Yes. That's like I've gone too far. >> Oh, man. Well, yeah.
>> Oh, man. Well, yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, ironically, if this whole
>> Yeah. I mean, ironically, if this whole thing works out, we'll probably be
thing works out, we'll probably be invited as like uh guest lecturers
invited as like uh guest lecturers >> to talk to some of these guys. But, are
>> to talk to some of these guys. But, are you going to wear your turtleneck? Most
you going to wear your turtleneck? Most certainly. Yes. Yes. Absolutely.
certainly. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. >> You can be the the spokesperson.
>> You can be the the spokesperson. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I do hereby declare I mean you you are a
I do hereby declare I mean you you are a pretty good wildfire. I'll give you
pretty good wildfire. I'll give you that.
that. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> He I don't know how but
>> He I don't know how but >> he just got it.
>> he just got it. >> You know I think he's been practicing
>> You know I think he's been practicing potentially for somewhere between six
potentially for somewhere between six and seven years
and seven years >> you know being a wordsmith
>> you know being a wordsmith >> potentially. You never know.
>> potentially. You never know. >> Somewhere
>> Somewhere >> if I weigh these up.
>> if I weigh these up. >> Yeah. Somewhere in between
>> Yeah. Somewhere in between >> I would guess. Very interesting.
>> I would guess. Very interesting. Wow. Sweet.
Wow. Sweet. >> Solomon. I feel like Solomon should ask
>> Solomon. I feel like Solomon should ask a better question. Dan. More questions.
a better question. Dan. More questions. Solomon. I'm enjoying this.
Solomon. I'm enjoying this. >> Can we get more old fashions?
>> Can we get more old fashions? >> Feel like we should.
>> Feel like we should. >> Dan,
>> can we get Dan? >> You finished your margarita.
>> You finished your margarita. >> I did a long time ago.
>> I did a long time ago. >> Old fashion.
>> Old fashion. >> Long time. I'm still I was making mine
>> Long time. I'm still I was making mine last cuz I I I
last cuz I I I >> Cuz he's academic. He's not drinking.
>> Cuz he's academic. He's not drinking. >> Yeah. He's like, I'm going to drink.
>> Yeah. He's like, I'm going to drink. >> I was staring. Give this man some wine.
>> I was staring. Give this man some wine. Get get him a glass of a nice
Get get him a glass of a nice >> Yeah. Get him some I don't even know
>> Yeah. Get him some I don't even know why. I'm going to have to
why. I'm going to have to >> He does like the the or whatever.
>> He does like the the or whatever. >> Does like the big inhalation.
>> Does like the big inhalation. >> You got like I need to appreciate your
>> You got like I need to appreciate your mouth. You know,
mouth. You know, >> you got you know,
>> you got you know, >> wow.
>> wow. >> Kind of like what is little sniff.
>> Kind of like what is little sniff. >> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Taste the the undertones.
>> Taste the the undertones. >> I know. I know.
>> I know. I know. >> It's a little earthy.
>> It's a little earthy. >> Yeah. A little earthy citrusy
>> Yeah. A little earthy citrusy undertones.
undertones. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> A little bit of pecan. It's giving a
>> A little bit of pecan. It's giving a 2018 season. You can taste the earth
2018 season. You can taste the earth from I don't know.
from I don't know. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> The Greenland.
>> The Greenland. >> You can taste the feet of the person who
>> You can taste the feet of the person who crushed these grapes.
>> As you guys as you guys are growing this company, how do you think you guys are
company, how do you think you guys are going to be able to maintain this
going to be able to maintain this culture that you have as three person
culture that you have as three person going into five going into 10 and 13?
going into five going into 10 and 13? Like how do you maintain that going into
Like how do you maintain that going into 30, 40, 50?
30, 40, 50? >> Remove anyone that goes against it
>> Remove anyone that goes against it quickly.
quickly. >> Yeah,
>> Yeah, >> that's true.
>> that's true. >> That's true. But I guess
>> That's true. But I guess >> I also think that like we might start
>> I also think that like we might start coaching people to know what what the
coaching people to know what what the culture like that we want.
culture like that we want. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> If if they're against it, if they come
>> If if they're against it, if they come in and they're like, you know,
in and they're like, you know, >> no, that's not what I'm saying. I'm
>> no, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying like if you go to like thousand
saying like if you go to like thousand people, right? You're going to have
people, right? You're going to have multiple offices or whatever. You're not
multiple offices or whatever. You're not going to be able to be in all of them
going to be able to be in all of them all the time. So I think like you need
all the time. So I think like you need to hire or not hire but like you pick
to hire or not hire but like you pick someone that you like and you're like
someone that you like and you're like you need to m maintain this culture.
you need to m maintain this culture. >> But I feel like they do that already.
>> But I feel like they do that already. Like whoever we hired has kind of like
Like whoever we hired has kind of like after they spent a couple weeks here
after they spent a couple weeks here they either lean in or they don't
they either lean in or they don't want to maintain
want to maintain >> if they do but but once they
>> if they do but but once they >> once they do that becomes the
>> once they do that becomes the expectation and if if they do and
expectation and if if they do and everyone else around them already did
everyone else around them already did >> then they're going to also hire people
>> then they're going to also hire people that resonate with that. So I think our
that resonate with that. So I think our job is to just make sure we get our
job is to just make sure we get our immediate hires right. If you if you
immediate hires right. If you if you solve that then it just it just
solve that then it just it just continues.
continues. >> I also think it's not just about
>> I also think it's not just about maintaining culture. It's about kind of
maintaining culture. It's about kind of raising the bar for culture. So I
raising the bar for culture. So I actually actually think we've we've only
actually actually think we've we've only scratched the surface around what the c
scratched the surface around what the c culture should be and will be in the
culture should be and will be in the future. So that's
future. So that's >> I mean a lot of the people at compi
>> I mean a lot of the people at compi right now have never experienced the
right now have never experienced the Miami Lambo.
Miami Lambo. >> That is true.
>> That is true. >> Or the yacht.
>> Or the yacht. >> That is that is that is iconic. It's not
>> That is that is that is iconic. It's not even that expensive
even that expensive >> in the grand scheme of things.
>> in the grand scheme of things. >> Oh, we'd have to get like 12 of them
>> Oh, we'd have to get like 12 of them now. So that it could add up. But I
now. So that it could add up. But I mean, if you think about it,
mean, if you think about it, >> I mean,
>> I mean, >> that's not that bad.
>> that's not that bad. >> It's like one contract if you think
>> It's like one contract if you think about it. You know, it's one sock, too.
about it. You know, it's one sock, too. >> In the grand in the grand scheme of
>> In the grand in the grand scheme of >> depends which framework.
>> We might need to tack on ISO. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Yeah. Maybe bundle it.
He saw me. I gave him the side as well. >> Yeah, we can charge maybe between six
>> Yeah, we can charge maybe between six and seven per framework, you know.
and seven per framework, you know. >> Six or seven frameworks maybe.
>> Six or seven frameworks maybe. >> No, but I mean Yeah, you you're right
>> No, but I mean Yeah, you you're right though. A lot of the people here have up
though. A lot of the people here have up until now anyway. Um especially from I
until now anyway. Um especially from I would say maybe like what five or six
would say maybe like what five or six people.
people. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Have probably missed out a little bit
>> Have probably missed out a little bit while we've been like fundraising.
while we've been like fundraising. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And then when that comes through they're
>> And then when that comes through they're going to be like what the [ __ ]
going to be like what the [ __ ] >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> What just happened?
>> What just happened? >> They don't know what's coming. They
>> They don't know what's coming. They don't know.
don't know. >> Yeah. No one knows epic.
>> Yeah. No one knows epic. >> But, you know, I also sense plans we
>> But, you know, I also sense plans we have in our head. I also sense like like
have in our head. I also sense like like it does take people a little bit of time
it does take people a little bit of time to kind of like come out of their shell.
to kind of like come out of their shell. Like they're a little bit shy when
Like they're a little bit shy when they're first showing. They don't know
they're first showing. They don't know like what's what's appropriate, what's
like what's what's appropriate, what's not appropriate. I think one thing we
not appropriate. I think one thing we culturally is like we're very like open
culturally is like we're very like open and direct, right? And I think in other
and direct, right? And I think in other companies, you're very like you're very
companies, you're very like you're very PC. You're very like calculating what
PC. You're very like calculating what you
you >> trying to say that you are not woke.
>> trying to say that you are not woke. >> Very calculating what you can't say when
>> Very calculating what you can't say when this is New York, sir. This is not San
this is New York, sir. This is not San Francisco.
Francisco. >> God bless America.
>> God bless America. >> God bless. Honestly, if I had to say it
>> God bless. Honestly, if I had to say it again, God bless America. I love New
again, God bless America. I love New York City,
York City, >> honestly. Yeah.
>> honestly. Yeah. >> Uh I I would have been out of San
>> Uh I I would have been out of San Francisco very quickly. I I know it just
Francisco very quickly. I I know it just I mean, we went there a couple of weeks
I mean, we went there a couple of weeks ago, right?
ago, right? >> Listen, I felt like leaving San
>> Listen, I felt like leaving San Francisco just like liberating me. I am
Francisco just like liberating me. I am I am unchained.
I am unchained. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> You could be more unchained. I feel like
>> You could be more unchained. I feel like we have to unlock that from him at some
we have to unlock that from him at some point.
point. >> I feel like slowly it's
>> I feel like slowly it's >> We need to get him to skits post at some
>> We need to get him to skits post at some point. It will happen.
point. It will happen. >> Yeah. Disagree. disagree.
>> Yeah. Disagree. disagree. >> You're not there yet. It's okay.
>> You're not there yet. It's okay. >> You You'll get there someday.
>> You You'll get there someday. >> I mean,
>> I mean, >> maybe create like an anonymous account,
>> maybe create like an anonymous account, you know, like an anal account. Uh a
you know, like an anal account. Uh a thin stack.
thin stack. >> It's way better when you do it as like,
>> It's way better when you do it as like, you know, it's you. It's your
you know, it's you. It's your personality.
personality. >> Yeah. But I just I just have no urge,
>> Yeah. But I just I just have no urge, frankly.
frankly. >> I I feel like it's not fun if you don't
>> I I feel like it's not fun if you don't like say it with your chest, you know?
like say it with your chest, you know? Like you're I I say what I actually
Like you're I I say what I actually think.
think. >> Yes. Have you seen all the hate he's
>> Yes. Have you seen all the hate he's gotten on Rex?
gotten on Rex? >> Oh yeah, Mr. In office only over here.
>> Oh yeah, Mr. In office only over here. Yeah,
Yeah, >> every single remote worker in the US
>> every single remote worker in the US hates him.
hates him. >> You should You know what? I considered
>> You should You know what? I considered the other day remaking a post like that.
the other day remaking a post like that. >> You should. You should. It probably
>> You should. You should. It probably bang.
bang. >> Well, the one that I got death threats
>> Well, the one that I got death threats for the um the firing someone before
for the um the firing someone before they started the job, right?
they started the job, right? >> Yeah. But I was re I was considering
>> Yeah. But I was re I was considering like re like, you know, tweaking it a
like re like, you know, tweaking it a bit, posting it again, see if it seeing
bit, posting it again, see if it seeing if it has the same effect again. I I
if it has the same effect again. I I mean I'm a big fan of it.
mean I'm a big fan of it. >> I feel like that's the second one that
>> I feel like that's the second one that I've gotten like a lot of backlash for.
I've gotten like a lot of backlash for. The first one was like AI is going to
The first one was like AI is going to take programmers jobs.
take programmers jobs. >> Oh yeah, I remember that.
>> Oh yeah, I remember that. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> I mean it is
>> I mean it is continue to
continue to >> they might not want to hear it but like
>> they might not want to hear it but like that that is happening. I mean you know
that that is happening. I mean you know we're probably going to get hit on this
we're probably going to get hit on this podcast for saying that but you know
podcast for saying that but you know what that's that's on them.
what that's that's on them. >> It's not on me. I don't care.
>> It's not on me. I don't care. >> [ __ ] you guys. I don't care.
>> [ __ ] you guys. I don't care. >> I mean I'm an engineer. Like I I write
>> I mean I'm an engineer. Like I I write code. I see how much of it is like has
code. I see how much of it is like has shifted more towards prompting instead
shifted more towards prompting instead of writing. So
of writing. So >> yeah, being at the driver's seat, we
>> yeah, being at the driver's seat, we know that.
know that. >> So these guys can't gaslight me just
>> So these guys can't gaslight me just because they want to keep their their
because they want to keep their their jobs and work, you know, two hours a day
jobs and work, you know, two hours a day in big tech and hide behind, you know,
in big tech and hide behind, you know, >> the person the person filming this
>> the person the person filming this podcast. Do you think they would do the
podcast. Do you think they would do the same for like AI images and media? Like
same for like AI images and media? Like >> Well, there's only there there's still
>> Well, there's only there there's still always two paths to go. there's like
always two paths to go. there's like either you embrace the tools and you do
either you embrace the tools and you do 100% of the work like 100x the work
100% of the work like 100x the work >> um or you you know deny the tools you're
>> um or you you know deny the tools you're a purist and then you get left behind.
a purist and then you get left behind. So it's you can choose what you want.
So it's you can choose what you want. >> The people who do use the tools are
>> The people who do use the tools are going to be way more efficient and
going to be way more efficient and better than the people who don't.
better than the people who don't. >> If if I were you though I would start
>> If if I were you though I would start using the tools today so you can become
using the tools today so you can become one of the best at using those tools.
one of the best at using those tools. You have the most experience because
You have the most experience because you've been using them since day one.
you've been using them since day one. >> Yep.
>> Yep. >> But um you know to each their own if
>> But um you know to each their own if they want to get left behind and
they want to get left behind and >> you know
>> you know >> they do be like that.
>> they do be like that. >> Yes. Yes. Do you think there's ever been
>> Yes. Yes. Do you think there's ever been a startup that's had three technical
a startup that's had three technical co-founders like in the history?
co-founders like in the history? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> That's got to this point
>> That's got to this point >> 100%
>> 100% >> free? No way. I actually think there
>> free? No way. I actually think there probably isn't
probably isn't >> probably some like hardcore like free
>> probably some like hardcore like free fully technical that have got to series
fully technical that have got to series A.
A. >> Well, I just don't think they advertise
>> Well, I just don't think they advertise it. So, I think even if people met us in
it. So, I think even if people met us in the wild
the wild >> Yeah. they would not assume they were
>> Yeah. they would not assume they were all technical.
all technical. >> I guarantee you. I guarantee you. So
>> I guarantee you. I guarantee you. So that technical it's kind of obscure.
that technical it's kind of obscure. Yeah,
Yeah, >> I can.
>> I can. >> I'm the only one with the glasses.
>> I'm the only one with the glasses. >> I can code.
>> I can code. >> I can sell and code.
>> I can sell and code. >> Yeah. Yeah, I can prove it.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I can prove it. >> Actually can't really code that well
>> Actually can't really code that well still.
still. >> No, I think you can. I think I think you
>> No, I think you can. I think I think you don't give us yourself enough credit.
don't give us yourself enough credit. >> I I have to like uh I have to like pick
>> I I have to like uh I have to like pick up the old habits again. I feel myself.
up the old habits again. I feel myself. >> That's with anyone like you get rusty on
>> That's with anyone like you get rusty on whatever skill.
whatever skill. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Damn.
>> Damn. >> You guys know the company.
>> You guys know the company. >> Yeah. Merore. Merore. They started they
>> Yeah. Merore. Merore. They started they have three foot pounders it says.
have three foot pounders it says. >> There you go.
>> There you go. >> Are they all technical?
>> Are they all technical? >> I don't know.
>> I don't know. >> See, we don't know.
>> See, we don't know. >> Got that.
>> Got that. >> It's not Well, it's not what I was
>> It's not Well, it's not what I was asking. Like it's not Are all three of
asking. Like it's not Are all three of you technical?
you technical? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Wow.
>> Wow. >> Are you sure?
>> Are you sure? >> Show me.
>> I'll show you how technical I am, boy. >> Code right now. I'll prove to you.
>> Code right now. I'll prove to you. >> No AI. No AI allowed. I mean, you get to
>> No AI. No AI allowed. I mean, you get to that point.
that point. >> That is how I interviewed my engineers.
>> That is how I interviewed my engineers. >> Even though I wanted to do AI,
>> Even though I wanted to do AI, >> I could use AI.
>> I could use AI. >> I I still I never wanted to die on the
>> I I still I never wanted to die on the hill, but I thought it was very stupid.
hill, but I thought it was very stupid. >> Well, I'm going to die on a hill and I
>> Well, I'm going to die on a hill and I thought it was genius.
thought it was genius. >> Okay,
>> Okay, >> say more. Yeah.
>> say more. Yeah. >> So, so wait, so you expect And just hear
>> So, so wait, so you expect And just hear me out for a second.
me out for a second. >> Yeah. You would say to someone, you are
>> Yeah. You would say to someone, you are not allowed to use AI even though I
not allowed to use AI even though I expect you to use AI every single day
expect you to use AI every single day when you work for Compai.
when you work for Compai. >> Yes, I back. I I I stand with that, by
>> Yes, I back. I I I stand with that, by the way. Yes. Because I need to know
the way. Yes. Because I need to know that they understand how to code and
that they understand how to code and they understand what's going on.
they understand what's going on. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> And they can actually do it.
>> And they can actually do it. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Like if the AI fails for some reason,
>> Like if the AI fails for some reason, they're not just stuck and they don't
they're not just stuck and they don't know what happened. Or if the AI writes
know what happened. Or if the AI writes some [ __ ] code, um they need to be able
some [ __ ] code, um they need to be able to tell the code. I would say that it's
to tell the code. I would say that it's a skill issue on your behalf and not
a skill issue on your behalf and not being able to see that without them
being able to see that without them using AI because you can tell when
using AI because you can tell when someone is only
someone is only >> talking about what if the AI oneshots it
>> talking about what if the AI oneshots it in the interview.
in the interview. >> Okay. Yeah, sure. But you can still ask
>> Okay. Yeah, sure. But you can still ask them questions that gets like something
them questions that gets like something out of them, right? And you can pretty I
out of them, right? And you can pretty I mean I feel like I can tell when people
mean I feel like I can tell when people are using AI for a lot of stuff
are using AI for a lot of stuff especially like
especially like um like the way they speak or if people
um like the way they speak or if people use AI to like generate like exposts
use AI to like generate like exposts like you can tell that it's like AI
like you can tell that it's like AI generated like you have a good eye for
generated like you have a good eye for it.
it. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> I think it's the same with technical
>> I think it's the same with technical >> I think you get a lot more information
>> I think you get a lot more information if you actually kind of test them on the
if you actually kind of test them on the raw skills.
raw skills. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> Yeah. I mean because your goal your goal
>> Yeah. I mean because your goal your goal at that point is
at that point is >> how do you even know how do you how can
>> how do you even know how do you how can you tell that they they aren't using AI
you tell that they they aren't using AI then so you did remote interviews right
then so you did remote interviews right you didn't require every single person
you didn't require every single person to
to >> I required everyone to
>> I required everyone to >> screen share
>> screen share >> to screen share their whole screen
>> to screen share their whole screen there's literally apps designed to
there's literally apps designed to >> yeah but you can you can you can
>> yeah but you can you can you can literally look at their eyes and see if
literally look at their eyes and see if they're reading something or you can you
they're reading something or you can you can tell if there's latency between the
can tell if there's latency between the response
response >> there's AI that changes your eye right
>> there's AI that changes your eye right so you have like you have like
so you have like you have like >> okay now now you're going like three
>> okay now now you're going like three steps people are not that clever
steps people are not that clever >> but if they but if they were that
>> but if they but if they were that clever? Could you not argue that if they
clever? Could you not argue that if they went through all of that effort to hide
went through all of that effort to hide a thing? Could you not argue that?
a thing? Could you not argue that? >> If they if they were that clever, then
>> If they if they were that clever, then they're just shooting themselves in the
they're just shooting themselves in the foot because the moment they join the
foot because the moment they join the company and they show incompetent, you
company and they show incompetent, you fire them within two weeks.
fire them within two weeks. >> Yeah. Exactly. So, who cares if they if
>> Yeah. Exactly. So, who cares if they if they
they >> So, it's a waste of time. But most
>> So, it's a waste of time. But most people are not going to do that, right?
people are not going to do that, right? So, like you're interviewing for the 99%
So, like you're interviewing for the 99% of people that
of people that >> for the 9% of PE people period.
>> for the 9% of PE people period. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Who don't do that.
>> Who don't do that. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> I would 100%. You're not interviewing
>> I would 100%. You're not interviewing for the 1% that might
for the 1% that might >> I I know with with zero doubt in my mind
>> I I know with with zero doubt in my mind that I would use something like AI
that I would use something like AI during an interview. If I for some
during an interview. If I for some reason had to do like an engineering
reason had to do like an engineering interview next time, I would be the sort
interview next time, I would be the sort of person to do it.
of person to do it. >> But but if you didn't deliver within the
>> But but if you didn't deliver within the first two weeks of being in that
first two weeks of being in that company, you'd probably get clipped.
company, you'd probably get clipped. >> Yeah, but you can figure it out. You
>> Yeah, but you can figure it out. You looks
looks >> If you can figure it out, sure. But if
>> If you can figure it out, sure. But if you can figure it out, then you were
you can figure it out, then you were good enough in the first place. Yeah,
good enough in the first place. Yeah, fine.
fine. >> That's what I'm saying. Like what's the
>> That's what I'm saying. Like what's the problem with
problem with >> But I think I think the people that
>> But I think I think the people that would typically resort to that
would typically resort to that >> would not be able to figure it out. And
>> would not be able to figure it out. And that's why they're resorting to that
that's why they're resorting to that because if you're confident in your
because if you're confident in your ability, then you wouldn't need to go
ability, then you wouldn't need to go through all the trouble.
through all the trouble. >> I think you're both to compensate.
>> I think you're both to compensate. >> I think you're both being very detailed
>> I think you're both being very detailed about it. I think a lot of companies
about it. I think a lot of companies would just accept that okay, people are
would just accept that okay, people are going to use AI during interviews. You
going to use AI during interviews. You embrace it and then you figure out from
embrace it and then you figure out from other things if they are good at the job
other things if they are good at the job or not.
or not. >> No, I think most companies
>> No, I think most companies >> would interview without AI without AI.
>> would interview without AI without AI. >> I don't think that there I don't think
>> I don't think that there I don't think there's anything that they can do to
there's anything that they can do to prove that you are or aren't using AI.
prove that you are or aren't using AI. >> It's not about proving it. It's about
>> It's not about proving it. It's about it's about trying to gather as much
it's about trying to gather as much information as you can
information as you can >> that's that's accurate for the vast
>> that's that's accurate for the vast majority of people.
majority of people. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Is that fair?
>> Is that fair? >> Yeah, sure. But I mean the only way you
>> Yeah, sure. But I mean the only way you can really know is by getting someone on
can really know is by getting someone on site and literally looking at their
site and literally looking at their screen, right? Screen sharing is
screen, right? Screen sharing is impossible.
impossible. >> I think you're assuming that most people
>> I think you're assuming that most people are cheating in their interviews. And I
are cheating in their interviews. And I don't think that's true.
don't think that's true. >> I I think a lot of people are. I think
>> I I think a lot of people are. I think >> I mean I interviewed like a lot of
>> I mean I interviewed like a lot of people like 20 25 engineers. None of
people like 20 25 engineers. None of them cheated. But you can't say that
them cheated. But you can't say that with certainty. You have no idea if you
with certainty. You have no idea if you neither can you. You also can't say with
neither can you. You also can't say with certainty that they did. So you're
certainty that they did. So you're you're on an impass
you're on an impass >> regardless.
>> regardless. >> I'd love to know what everyone else
>> I'd love to know what everyone else thinks about it. It keeps me up at night
thinks about it. It keeps me up at night this question.
this question. >> It keeps me up at night. I wonder I
>> It keeps me up at night. I wonder I wonder.
wonder. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> I mean, at the end of the day,
>> I mean, at the end of the day, >> I'm not I'm not willing to die in it.
>> I'm not I'm not willing to die in it. So, you know, I was you you run your
So, you know, I was you you run your process.
process. >> We can spin the wheel to see who's
>> We can spin the wheel to see who's right.
right. >> I'm down.
>> I'm down. >> No, because He's our reality in the
>> No, because He's our reality in the hill.
hill. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> All right. All right. Fair enough. Fair
>> All right. All right. Fair enough. Fair enough.
enough. >> He's got more conviction.
>> He's got more conviction. >> I would I genuinely would love to know
>> I would I genuinely would love to know like if you if we went and like surveyed
like if you if we went and like surveyed like a hundred people their opinion on
like a hundred people their opinion on it.
it. >> I mean listen bottom line is like I mean
>> I mean listen bottom line is like I mean I don't care that much. Like I'm
I don't care that much. Like I'm curious.
curious. >> If you ask me in two years
>> If you ask me in two years >> the same question. I I would let them
>> the same question. I I would let them say I because I think it's good enough
say I because I think it's good enough in two years for it to like not make
in two years for it to like not make mistakes and not make like stupid code.
mistakes and not make like stupid code. >> It's being del right now.
>> It's being del right now. >> No, I just don't think at the point
>> No, I just don't think at the point where it's good enough. cracked it out.
where it's good enough. cracked it out. It gets stuck.
It gets stuck. >> Sure, it gets stuck every now and then,
>> Sure, it gets stuck every now and then, but I mean like 99% of the time it's
but I mean like 99% of the time it's cracked.
cracked. >> About 80% of the time. Um and then you
>> About 80% of the time. Um and then you have you actually have to go deep in the
have you actually have to go deep in the weeds to figure out like the exact like
weeds to figure out like the exact like root cause of why it failed. Otherwise,
root cause of why it failed. Otherwise, you're stuck.
you're stuck. >> Yeah. Switch models.
>> Yeah. Switch models. >> We've had people who g trials actually
>> We've had people who g trials actually get stuck with AI and they actually
get stuck with AI and they actually don't ship that much.
don't ship that much. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And then they're I actually did have one
>> And then they're I actually did have one guy.
guy. >> So, it's not really that good. I had one
>> So, it's not really that good. I had one guy that I interviewed with cursor like
guy that I interviewed with cursor like he used he he basically copied the read
he used he he basically copied the read me into the into cursor and it just did
me into the into cursor and it just did everything. Um then I started trying to
everything. Um then I started trying to ask him questions on like okay let's
ask him questions on like okay let's build this new feature let's do this. He
build this new feature let's do this. He got stuck
got stuck >> the AI ran into a bug. It was like some
>> the AI ran into a bug. It was like some tailwind thing like I told him just fix
tailwind thing like I told him just fix the color. He didn't know what to do. He
the color. He didn't know what to do. He was trying to prompt it and I'm like in
was trying to prompt it and I'm like in my head I'm like why don't you just go
my head I'm like why don't you just go to the file and write the
to the file and write the >> the one little line
>> the one little line >> look at the thing
>> look at the thing >> to fix it. You know
>> to fix it. You know >> that's f. So that was one example, but
>> that's f. So that was one example, but I'm sure like, you know, it goes to show
I'm sure like, you know, it goes to show that people don't know how to debug it.
that people don't know how to debug it. And I I would think it's like the
And I I would think it's like the majority of people are not fluent with
majority of people are not fluent with AI tools yet to that extent.
AI tools yet to that extent. I just find it really interesting that
I just find it really interesting that that that's the the hill that you're
that that's the the hill that you're you're willing to die on when you are
you're willing to die on when you are the sort of person to go on like
the sort of person to go on like LinkedIn and be like, "Yeah, every
LinkedIn and be like, "Yeah, every engineer should be using AI because if
engineer should be using AI because if you're not, you're going to be left
you're not, you're going to be left behind."
behind." >> Yeah. Operating there.
>> Yeah. Operating there. >> Yeah. But operating keyword there is
>> Yeah. But operating keyword there is engineer.
engineer. >> So you have So we're hiring engineers
>> So you have So we're hiring engineers who use AI, not just AI users
who use AI, not just AI users >> are not really engineers.
>> are not really engineers. >> If I know that they can
>> If I know that they can >> I don't disagree. If I see them and I
>> I don't disagree. If I see them and I know that they can write code well, then
know that they can write code well, then I know that AI is going to enhance them
I know that AI is going to enhance them a thousandx
a thousandx >> enhancing. Yes, that's kind of what
>> enhancing. Yes, that's kind of what you're looking for right now.
you're looking for right now. >> So, it's not like replacing right now.
>> So, it's not like replacing right now. >> It's more like enhancing them. Like I
>> It's more like enhancing them. Like I know that it's going to bring their
know that it's going to bring their output way more.
output way more. >> I think that's the formula to be honest.
>> I think that's the formula to be honest. It's like
It's like >> Yeah. You you need like good good raw
>> Yeah. You you need like good good raw material to then 100x. So, that's what
material to then 100x. So, that's what we're really looking at.
we're really looking at. >> Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, and I'm not
>> Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, and I'm not saying that you should hire people that
saying that you should hire people that don't know how to to code.
don't know how to to code. >> All right. I'm not saying I'm not I'm
>> All right. I'm not saying I'm not I'm not trying to fight for that. Mhm.
not trying to fight for that. Mhm. >> But I do think that it's almost like on
>> But I do think that it's almost like on you as a hiring like person to figure
you as a hiring like person to figure out like okay give them all of the tools
out like okay give them all of the tools available to them. Let them go you know
available to them. Let them go you know do whatever they want throughout the
do whatever they want throughout the process. Let's say you have like okay
process. Let's say you have like okay you have to do this like the output of
you have to do this like the output of this interview should be you have made
this interview should be you have made this app or whatever right or some type
this app or whatever right or some type of test.
of test. >> Yeah. You just let them use whatever
>> Yeah. You just let them use whatever tools are available to to them. And you
tools are available to to them. And you should be good enough at understanding
should be good enough at understanding if they were able to do it with or
if they were able to do it with or without it, even if they used it.
without it, even if they used it. >> I think I think it's the other way
>> I think I think it's the other way around. It's like what you want to you
around. It's like what you want to you don't want to be testing for the base
don't want to be testing for the base case.
case. >> You want to be testing for the for the
>> You want to be testing for the for the edge case. And the edge case is when
edge case. And the edge case is when they have to eject from the tools to go
they have to eject from the tools to go figure it out by hand. So cuz that's
figure it out by hand. So cuz that's that's the hard part. The easy part is
that's the hard part. The easy part is the base case where like you can oneshot
the base case where like you can oneshot things. The hard part is okay, the model
things. The hard part is okay, the model messed up. Now you have to go ahead and
messed up. Now you have to go ahead and fix it. Can you do that? So I think I
fix it. Can you do that? So I think I think the interview should be structured
think the interview should be structured on the the hard parts of the edge cases.
on the the hard parts of the edge cases. >> Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean again it's not
>> Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean again it's not a hill that I'm willing to die on.
a hill that I'm willing to die on. >> I just find it interesting that you're
>> I just find it interesting that you're very you know both of you very like like
very you know both of you very like like acceleration and then you're like ah but
acceleration and then you're like ah but you're not allowed to use AI during an
you're not allowed to use AI during an interview.
interview. >> Well it's supposed to be a test
>> Well it's supposed to be a test >> and that is a way to test.
>> and that is a way to test. >> Yeah. If you testing the edge case could
>> Yeah. If you testing the edge case could be because that is that is where people
be because that is that is where people what makes or breaks an engineer is like
what makes or breaks an engineer is like are they going to be stuck for 3 hours
are they going to be stuck for 3 hours because they they they don't know how to
because they they they don't know how to properly
properly >> like basically migrate between the
>> like basically migrate between the systems and get the other systems to
systems and get the other systems to work well.
work well. >> But if the edge case is okay how how
>> But if the edge case is okay how how often would it go down for 3 hours?
often would it go down for 3 hours? >> What's that?
>> What's that? >> Like how often would it go down for 3
>> Like how often would it go down for 3 hours? Like has that happened to us
hours? Like has that happened to us recently?
recently? >> What go down?
>> What go down? >> Like an AI.
>> Like an AI. >> The AI.
>> The AI. >> No, no, it's not the AI going down. is
>> No, no, it's not the AI going down. is is it's them getting stuck in a rabbit
is it's them getting stuck in a rabbit hole or like the AI is making mistakes
hole or like the AI is making mistakes because the AI is making mistakes. They
because the AI is making mistakes. They don't know how to properly debug it.
don't know how to properly debug it. >> But I'm curious how often that will
>> But I'm curious how often that will happen.
happen. >> I think it happens very often
>> I think it happens very often >> like and if if you could get them at
>> like and if if you could get them at let's say a great price because they
let's say a great price because they aren't as technical maybe but they can
aren't as technical maybe but they can use the model somewhat to like steer
use the model somewhat to like steer them and okay once a month for one day
them and okay once a month for one day they go down a rabbit hole get stuck
they go down a rabbit hole get stuck start fresh the next day and they get
start fresh the next day and they get it.
it. >> Well that said it's that one said it's
>> Well that said it's that one said it's once a month but that's actually not
once a month but that's actually not true. Like
true. Like >> I actually don't know enough right now
>> I actually don't know enough right now to say it's once a month or you know
to say it's once a month or you know once a week or once every day.
once a week or once every day. >> It's it's many times a day.
>> It's it's many times a day. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> See when the recent stuff that I've been
>> See when the recent stuff that I've been doing I've never had to like I don't
doing I've never had to like I don't think I've ever had to like really go
think I've ever had to like really go down like this rabbit hole
down like this rabbit hole >> because you're a better engineer than
>> because you're a better engineer than you give yourself credit for. So the
you give yourself credit for. So the thing is like you know how to prompt you
thing is like you know how to prompt you know how to ask for things to get to
know how to ask for things to get to steer.
steer. >> But I have had times in the you know
>> But I have had times in the you know like 6 months ago 12 months ago I have
like 6 months ago 12 months ago I have had that happen. I'm like, god damn,
had that happen. I'm like, god damn, like I wish it would work because I've
like I wish it would work because I've not been able to figure out on my own.
not been able to figure out on my own. >> And I had to like all right, completely
>> And I had to like all right, completely >> um you know, kill all of the context,
>> um you know, kill all of the context, restart cursor, delete all the files so
restart cursor, delete all the files so it doesn't have it in my memory or like
it doesn't have it in my memory or like start from start from scratch, right?
start from start from scratch, right? Maybe even a different model.
Maybe even a different model. >> Well, you can't do that with like a big
>> Well, you can't do that with like a big code base now, right?
code base now, right? >> Yeah. Yeah, sure. But I mean like like
>> Yeah. Yeah, sure. But I mean like like let's say you're working on like a
let's say you're working on like a specific feature like I had it yesterday
specific feature like I had it yesterday where I you know I asked it to do
where I you know I asked it to do something and then I actually wanted to
something and then I actually wanted to completely go down like a different um
completely go down like a different um like path. So I deleted the files that
like path. So I deleted the files that it made. I was like I'll just delete
it made. I was like I'll just delete them. I wanted to start from fresh and I
them. I wanted to start from fresh and I wanted to taint like the how it should
wanted to taint like the how it should do it. And even though because I even
do it. And even though because I even though I deleted the file it still had
though I deleted the file it still had like some memory of it. So it did it the
like some memory of it. So it did it the exact same way. Right. Um, but then it
exact same way. Right. Um, but then it rarely happens. Like I don't think
rarely happens. Like I don't think there's been anything that I've done
there's been anything that I've done anyway. And maybe it's just because I'm
anyway. And maybe it's just because I'm not in the code base enough anymore that
not in the code base enough anymore that I I don't see as a problem.
I I don't see as a problem. >> My feeling is that you weren't working
>> My feeling is that you weren't working on like complex enough features. Maybe
on like complex enough features. Maybe it was like a simple task.
it was like a simple task. >> It was very complex. Okay.
>> It was very complex. Okay. >> Not even MIT Andes would be able to do
>> Not even MIT Andes would be able to do it. Once
it. Once >> you get to the complex features where it
>> you get to the complex features where it touches a lot of parts and stuff like
touches a lot of parts and stuff like that, like
that, like >> that's fair.
>> that's fair. >> You need to understand what's going on.
>> You need to understand what's going on. >> That's fair.
>> That's fair. >> Yeah. especially
>> Yeah. especially like cross repos and things like that
like cross repos and things like that like hey I can't figure that out yet. I
like hey I can't figure that out yet. I mean sure it's going to get better but I
mean sure it's going to get better but I think for for now we need to hire
think for for now we need to hire engineers that are good to contribute
engineers that are good to contribute today to the codebase not contribute to
today to the codebase not contribute to codebase two years from now when the AI
codebase two years from now when the AI is much better.
is much better. >> Yeah I'm sure in two years AI is not
>> Yeah I'm sure in two years AI is not going to be making mistakes or like
going to be making mistakes or like silly mistakes at least. Yeah, I think
silly mistakes at least. Yeah, I think maybe the role will move more towards to
maybe the role will move more towards to towards like a like a product manager is
towards like a like a product manager is the one who's actually like writing all
the one who's actually like writing all the code frankly and like they just need
the code frankly and like they just need to understand more like user
to understand more like user requirements and the AI can kind of like
requirements and the AI can kind of like translate that to technical
translate that to technical requirements. That's how it works in
requirements. That's how it works in real teams.
real teams. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Um
>> Um >> are we being are we being low IQ by not
>> are we being are we being low IQ by not getting those kind of people right now?
getting those kind of people right now? >> I don't think they exist yet.
>> I don't think they exist yet. >> I think they do. I think there's
>> I think they do. I think there's definitely people
definitely people >> it's going to be like impossible to
>> it's going to be like impossible to find. Which kind of people? like people
find. Which kind of people? like people who can steer it in a in a direction and
who can steer it in a in a direction and maybe only get stuck like one 1% of the
maybe only get stuck like one 1% of the time.
time. >> But that those today that role is
>> But that those today that role is basically like a senior engineer that
basically like a senior engineer that that's 100,000xed.
that's 100,000xed. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> It's a senior engineer or a former
>> It's a senior engineer or a former founder that's like basically technical
founder that's like basically technical and has some product like taste.
and has some product like taste. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> So I think I think that role to me is
>> So I think I think that role to me is like kind of the unicorns of today
like kind of the unicorns of today >> and that role is going to continue to
>> and that role is going to continue to shift to more nontechnical over time.
shift to more nontechnical over time. But I think what we need to do as a team
But I think what we need to do as a team to try to be more like accelerationist
to try to be more like accelerationist is to pay attention to like what what
is to pay attention to like what what the cutting edge of that role is. So
the cutting edge of that role is. So today I do think it's like the technical
today I do think it's like the technical former founder or like technical former
former founder or like technical former engineer turned PM type of role.
engineer turned PM type of role. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> That I think next year it might actually
>> That I think next year it might actually be PM that was never technical and then
be PM that was never technical and then the year after that it might actually be
the year after that it might actually be like a VP of product. You know what I
like a VP of product. You know what I mean? Yeah.
mean? Yeah. >> And the year after that, I might
>> And the year after that, I might actually be a CEO
actually be a CEO >> who like never had to write any code,
>> who like never had to write any code, but he's just like just thinking about
but he's just like just thinking about strategy and and then giving that to AI.
strategy and and then giving that to AI. >> Yeah, that's fair.
>> Yeah, that's fair. >> So, no AI during interviews
>> So, no AI during interviews >> for now.
>> for now. >> I mean, if you're watching this, back me
>> I mean, if you're watching this, back me up. Feel free to feel free to back me up
up. Feel free to feel free to back me up in the comments.
in the comments. >> Or back me up or back him up if you want
>> Or back me up or back him up if you want to.
to. >> I won't I won't judge.
>> I won't I won't judge. >> Yeah. I mean, I'd be curious to see what
>> Yeah. I mean, I'd be curious to see what people think.
people think. >> I'm genuinely curious like um you know,
>> I'm genuinely curious like um you know, there's like a 100 people out. Well, I
there's like a 100 people out. Well, I mean I think I think the honest question
mean I think I think the honest question is like have you found an effective way
is like have you found an effective way of evaluating people like AI so you're
of evaluating people like AI so you're not stuck basically I think the
not stuck basically I think the challenge is sort of like you either
challenge is sort of like you either you're you're you're sitting there doing
you're you're you're sitting there doing an interview and all you're doing is
an interview and all you're doing is waiting for someone to like for the
waiting for someone to like for the inference to end and right now the
inference to end and right now the models are getting very good at
models are getting very good at sometimes running tasks for like 20 to
sometimes running tasks for like 20 to 30 minutes. So like is if the entire
30 minutes. So like is if the entire interview is you writing one prompt and
interview is you writing one prompt and then the interviewer just sitting there
then the interviewer just sitting there and waiting for 30 minutes for the
and waiting for 30 minutes for the entire thing to complete that's not a
entire thing to complete that's not a very productive interview. So the the
very productive interview. So the the real question I think underlying is like
real question I think underlying is like >> I guess the test wouldn't shouldn't be
>> I guess the test wouldn't shouldn't be that complicated though. It shouldn't be
that complicated though. It shouldn't be that
that >> those are the questions is like
>> those are the questions is like >> even if you're interviewing and no AI
>> even if you're interviewing and no AI usage.
usage. >> Yeah. It's like what are the best ways
>> Yeah. It's like what are the best ways that you found to like get the most
that you found to like get the most information possible from candidates
information possible from candidates within a short window of time. I think
within a short window of time. I think that that's ultimately what you're
that that's ultimately what you're trying to solve is like the most signal
trying to solve is like the most signal for 30 minutes worth or 45 minutes
for 30 minutes worth or 45 minutes worth.
worth. >> We're going to need someone to clip this
>> We're going to need someone to clip this and like get it to go viral so we could
and like get it to go viral so we could actually know everyone's opinions on it.
actually know everyone's opinions on it. No pressure.
No pressure. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Correct.
>> Correct. >> It's gonna be great.
>> It's gonna be great. >> Sweet. All right. I think we've been
>> Sweet. All right. I think we've been running for like an hour and a half or
running for like an hour and a half or maybe more.
maybe more. >> Any more questions, Solomon?
>> Any more questions, Solomon? >> We're yappers.
>> We're yappers. >> I think it's a good place to put on
>> I think it's a good place to put on this.
this. >> All right. I feel like Mariana should
>> All right. I feel like Mariana should say bye like we did last time.
say bye like we did last time. >> Um, all right. Thank you so much for
>> Um, all right. Thank you so much for watching our episode one or two.
watching our episode one or two. >> What we did last time was uh we sang
>> What we did last time was uh we sang national anthem on our way out.
national anthem on our way out. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you did. Yeah,
>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you did. Yeah, >> I'm sure Lewis knew the national anthem
>> I'm sure Lewis knew the national anthem by heart.
by heart. >> He did. He did. He surprised me as an
>> He did. He did. He surprised me as an American.
American. >> Should we put him on the spot right now?
>> Should we put him on the spot right now? >> Oh, sick. Is that Is that how it was?
>> Oh, sick. Is that Is that how it was? Oh, [ __ ] I know. See, I know it. I know
Oh, [ __ ] I know. See, I know it. I know it. You know [ __ ] USA. USA.
I pledged allegiance. >> I actually know that one.
>> I actually know that one. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I've seen SAP Park way too many
>> Yeah. I've seen SAP Park way too many times. That makes sense.
times. That makes sense. >> Too easy.
>> Too easy. >> That's like every public school in the
>> That's like every public school in the US.
US. >> God bless these United States.
>> God bless these United States. >> You listen to the morning announcements.
>> You listen to the morning announcements. You know, I I think the US is unique in
You know, I I think the US is unique in the fact that it's the only place in the
the fact that it's the only place in the world that does that. Like I'm pretty
world that does that. Like I'm pretty sure no other country in the world
sure no other country in the world >> Korea does that problem.
>> Korea does that problem. >> I
>> I am
am >> I pledge allegiance
>> I pledge allegiance >> the US North Korea serious problem.
>> the US North Korea serious problem. >> See not miked up, but he said North
>> See not miked up, but he said North Korea does that too.
Korea does that too. >> You pledge an allegiance to a flag.
>> You pledge an allegiance to a flag. >> I'm pretty sure
>> I'm pretty sure >> you telling every
>> you telling every >> to the Supreme Leader. Yes.
>> to the Supreme Leader. Yes. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Except it's not a flag. It's just a
>> Except it's not a flag. It's just a picture of King Jung.
picture of King Jung. But but go
But but go >> I actually like it though. Like I think
>> I actually like it though. Like I think it's a great I think that's what makes
it's a great I think that's what makes America America.
America America. >> I think so too.
>> I think so too. >> Patriotic.
>> Patriotic. >> You [ __ ] you ruined the clip, sir.
>> You [ __ ] you ruined the clip, sir. God damn it.
God damn it. >> I don't know. I genuinely think that's
>> I don't know. I genuinely think that's probably a reason why every America like
probably a reason why every America like every American loves like [ __ ] loves
every American loves like [ __ ] loves America, right?
America, right? >> In the UK. I'm pretty sure like like I'm
>> In the UK. I'm pretty sure like like I'm pretty sure like most people from the UK
pretty sure like most people from the UK are like if if you ask them to pledge
are like if if you ask them to pledge allegiance to a flag,
allegiance to a flag, >> it's kind of like brainwashing you know.
>> it's kind of like brainwashing you know. They're kind of cool from a young age.
They're kind of cool from a young age. >> You they you get looked at like you're
>> You they you get looked at like you're some like crazy like racist guy. Hell
some like crazy like racist guy. Hell no.
no. >> That's not
>> That's not >> And I hear it's everyone's proud.
>> And I hear it's everyone's proud. They're like, "Hell yeah."
They're like, "Hell yeah." >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> But it's kind of seen as like a bad
>> But it's kind of seen as like a bad thing in in other places.
thing in in other places. >> I like it. I'm a big fan.
>> I like it. I'm a big fan. >> Mexico is also very very big. They also
>> Mexico is also very very big. They also do that in Mexico actually. Very
do that in Mexico actually. Very patriotic. I think I think we also do
patriotic. I think I think we also do like national anthem in the morning or
like national anthem in the morning or whatever.
whatever. >> Maybe it's just
>> Maybe it's just >> or once a week, right?
>> or once a week, right? >> Maybe it's just Europe in certain
>> Maybe it's just Europe in certain countries. Yeah,
countries. Yeah, >> but there's probably a good reason for
>> but there's probably a good reason for it.
it. >> Um, I don't know. I'm not from Europe.
>> Um, I don't know. I'm not from Europe. >> The Nazis maybe.
>> The Nazis maybe. >> I would have That's probably a reason.
>> I would have That's probably a reason. >> Maybe something like that. Yeah.
>> Maybe something like that. Yeah. >> Something like, you know, postwar kind
>> Something like, you know, postwar kind of.
of. >> Yeah, that's fair. I can see that.
>> Yeah, that's fair. I can see that. >> Stop being so patriotic cuz we caused
>> Stop being so patriotic cuz we caused issues with that at some point.
issues with that at some point. >> Yeah. It's not It's not a bad
>> Yeah. It's not It's not a bad hypothesis.
hypothesis. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> A little scarring.
>> A little scarring. >> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Trying to avoid past issues.
>> Trying to avoid past issues. >> Yeah. Makes sense. Anyway, anyway, I
>> Yeah. Makes sense. Anyway, anyway, I like how we became like a cool podcast
like how we became like a cool podcast at the end there talking about um you
at the end there talking about um you know, cultural things as opposed to to
know, cultural things as opposed to to tech and and startups.
tech and and startups. >> Yeah. Right.
>> Yeah. Right. >> All right. Go speed.
>> All right. Go speed. >> So, as I was saying,
>> So, as I was saying, >> so so do you want to are you going to
>> so so do you want to are you going to sing the [ __ ] national?
>> Should we just cut it there? >> All right. Cheers.
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