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Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired? w/ @thoughtfulfaith2020 and @TheCounselofTrent

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This content is a transcript of a debate between Jacob Hansen (representing the affirmative) and Trent Horn (representing the negative) on the question: "Is the Book of Mormon divinely inspired?" The debate explores various arguments, including archaeological evidence, literary analysis, historical claims, eyewitness testimony, and the perceived "fruits" of the Book of Mormon, contrasted with counterarguments and criticisms.

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any

sinner is capable of being a great

Saint and any

saint is also capable of

being a great sinner a great sin a great a

the secret therefore

of all right you're live and we're live

here with Jacob Hansen and Trent horn

welcome to this debate very excited for

it thank you for coming in studio thank

you something nice about having people

around a

table than than doing these Skype

interviews um rather than doing lengthy

introductions you can check below to

learn more about our Debaters the topic

for the debate is is the Book of Mormon

divinely inspired we're going to have

opening statements of 15 minutes each

and then a rebuttal of 7 minutes each a

second rebuttal of 4 minutes each we'll

then have a cross-examination each

debator will have 15 minutes followed by

audience Q&A um if you want to have your

if you want to direct a question to one

of The Debaters feel free to put in a

super chat but please know that we may

not be able to get to all of them so

don't get angry with me if and when that

happens I thought it would be helpful if

I read a description of the Book of

Mormon so that we both know what we're

talking about and uh this is an excerpt

that both Trent and Jacob have have have

agreed to the Book of Mormon is a

religious text considered scripture to

lday Saints the book describes itself as

a record of ancient American people uh

who descended from a family that left

Jerusalem around 600 BC the book focuses

on two main groups called lamanites and

Nephites did I get that right that's

correct good their prophets teachings

their Wars and their interactions with

Jesus Christ who appears after his

resurrection the text emphasizes faith

in Jesus Christ repentance and the

importance of following God's

Commandments it aims to complement the

Bible and offer additional insights into

God's dealings with his children The

Book of Mormon purports to have been

written on gold plates and buried by the

prophet Moroni in the early 5th Century

ad in 1827 Joseph Smith reported being

directed by moroni's Spirit to retrieve

the plates Smith claimed he translated

the plates through the gift and power of

God the translated text known as The

Book of Mormon was Central to the

establishment of the Church of Jesus

Christ of latterday saints and along

with the Bible is considered scripture

to its members all right so since Jacob

is taking the affirmative of is the Book

of Mormon divinely inspired Jacob

whenever you want to begin you have 15

minutes all right thank you very much

let me do this yeah thanks for being

here too this is fun all

right okay well first of all thank you

to uh Matt and Trent for both of you

guys for making this debate happen it's

an honor to be here now for most people

The Book of Mormon is kind of a joke

it's a laughable work of religious

fiction but isn't that what many people

say about the Bible Trent today will

argue or today I will argue that if you

take the Book of Mormon as seriously as

you take the Bible a profound mystery

emerges not only does the book have a

demonstrable positive effect on people

it almost certainly did not come from

Joseph Smith when you look at the

evidence that most people are not even

aware of things like one archaeological

evidence two literary evidence three

historical evidence four eyewitness

testimony and five the positive effect

that the book has on people if Trent

wants to say it's reasonable for a

person to believe in the Bible I will

say that this evidence makes it

reasonable to believe in the divine

inspiration behind the Book of Mormon so

let's start with

archaeology The Book of Mormon Begins by

describing lehi's family's journey and

claims that they come to a place in

Southwest Arabia that was called

nahome there they built or they buried

Ishmael there and they said that the

trail turned East and it just so happens

that in the 1990s the German

archaeological Institute discovered a

place called nahome in Southwest Arabia

right where the ancient frankincense

Trail turns East it also was a place of

burials and

astoundingly it even had a grave with

the name ishmail on it that dated to the

6th Century BC a lucky guess well

maybe but it gets even crazier because

The Book of Mormon says that due east of

nahome is a coastal land that Lehi

called Bountiful because of its green

Landscapes fruit trees running water

iron ore Wild Honey and in total more

than a dozen specific features totally

out of place for the deserts of

Arabia and guess what you find when you

go to the coast directly east of nahome

you find the strange doar region of Oman

it's an unusual 20 m stretch of lush

Coastline which contains every one of

the Dozen specific features described in

the Book of Mormon it's an astounding

Bullseye now I could go on and talk

about the discovery of the valley of

lemel and other evidences from

archaeology but let's go on to number

two the literary

evidence so Trent's theory is that a

23-year-old Farm laborer with a third

grade education was not only able to

come up with real undiscovered locations

in the near East but that he was also

able to write a

500 uh page book in a little over two

months in a single draft how remarkable

is this well have you ever written an

eight page single spaced essay in a

single draft try doing that every single

day for the next three

months studies show that genius authors

like JK Rowling and Stephen King produce

about 200 to 400 words a day Joseph was

able to produce an astounding

4,000 words per day and in a single

draft he produced one of the most

influential religious texts of all time

this complex book includes multiple

overlapping narratives multiple writing

styles complex theology Psalms chastic

poetry poetry a uh authentic ancient

Hebrew legal forms and much much more

the even non-mormon Pulitzer Prize

winner Daniel Walker how

said that what Joseph produced should

quote rank among the greatest works of

American literature and the atheist

literary critic Harold bloom after

studying Smith called him a religious

genius so if Trent wants to say that

Joseph was just some genius Storyteller

that was making things up he's also

going to need to explain away the

authentic historical aspects of the book

for instance here are some funny

sounding names in The Book of Mormon

himni Lam maoni aha amona chish hagoth

mokai abish

maona now pretty much everyone thought

that those were just madeup names until

during the past 80 years archaeologists

have discovered every single one of them

in various ancient Hebrew texts Trent is

going to need to explain how Joseph

during his stream of Consciousness

dictation process was able to make up

over a dozen

undiscovered ancient Hebrew names

now moving on the Catholic answers

website says that Caymus is an ancient

Hebrew literary form that lists items in

one order and then poetically repeats

them back in reverse order for example

he that finds his life shall lose it and

he that loses his life shall find it is

a simple two item kaym now remarkably in

1967 textual Scholars discovered dozens

of complex KMS in the The Book of Mormon

including one in Alma 36 spanning 30

verses with an astounding 17 items given

in one order and then back again in

reverse order interwoven into a poetic

sermon on Christ's Redemptive power The

Scholar John Welch calls it one of the

finest examples of chastic composition

anywhere in world literature also Trent

needs to explain why the Book of Mormon

makes so many authentic Hebrew word

plays for example jerson in the in

Hebrew is associated with with the idea

of an inheritance and it just so happens

that jerson is the name given to the

quote land of inheritance for the

refugee people of

Ammon also it should be noted that the

Book of Mormon contains 337 proper names

yet none of them have the letter QX or W

in them now that may seem like an odd

pattern Until you realize that ancient

Hebrew did not have the letter q w or

X also what are the chances that King

zedekiah had a son named muck as the

Book of Mormon predicts well he did but

we didn't know that until the 20th

century and I could go on and on but

let's go on to number four eyewitness

testimony did you know that we have over

150 statements from a total of 19

different eyewitnesses who despite

facing extermination orders mob violence

and two of them being murdered went to

their deaths saying that they saw the

gold plates can you imagine how excited

Trent would be if we discovered over 150

accounts from 19 separate eyewitnesses

of the

Resurrection here are just two of these

accounts someone once claimed that

Martin Harris one of the witnesses had

hallucinated and only saw the plates in

a vision here was his response quote

gentlemen do you see this hand are you

sure that you see it are your eyes

playing a trick or something no well as

sure as you see my hand so sure did I

see the plates Trent has also implied in

his book on Mormonism that they were

Liars and they were part of a 19ers

conspiracy to join Smith for personal

gain but this conspiracy theory makes no

sense when you learn that many of these

eyewitnesses eventually left the church

or were excommunicated but still refus

to deny their testimony despite immense

pressure to do so look up the history

over and over when these Witnesses had

everything to gain by denying their

testimony they would not do it another

one of the witnesses to the gold plates

was named Oliver Howry he said the

following on his deathbed to his friend

he said Jacob I want you to remember

what I say to you I'm a dying man and

what would it profit me to tell you a

lie I know that whereever I testified is

true it was no dream no vain imagination

of the mind it was

real but how can you tell if this book

was divinely inspired and not

demonically inspired well our Lord Jesus

Christ answered this he said that future

prophets would would come and quote by

their fruits ye shall know them so

imagine there was a book out there that

consistently caused people to become

more giving more loving more faithful

and more Christlike would it be crazy to

think that such a book was in some way

divinely inspired well that book exists

and it's called The Book of

Mormon the published academic literature

is remarkable latterday stats given

astonishing seven times more volunteer

work to their Community than your average

average

American Latter-Day Saints financially

give four to six times more to

nonprofits than your average American

and that's more than any other major

religious group in the

country latterday Saint Temple marriages

are three to five times less likely to

end in divorce and those stable

marriages produce more children than any

other major religious group also in 2010

Pew research found that people from

these latterday Saint families knew more

about the Bible than any other Christian

group that they

studied and just to top that off

latterday Saints live in astounding

seven years longer and experience

significantly better physical and mental

health than your average

American so it should not surprise us

that despite the continuous mockery of

our beliefs even by other Christians

studies on happiness find over and over

that latterday Saints report the highest

levels of Life satisfaction now we are

not a perfect people okay we have our

issues but Trent is going to have to

explain how an evil con man produced a

book that leads people to be so

consistently healthy happy and

charitable keep in mind Christ himself

said that an evil tree does not bring

forth good fruit so why is it that

Latter-Day Saints are demonstrably such

a benefit to the communities that they

reside in this is not a mystery for me I

have experienced the real power that

comes from words words like these in the

Book of Mormon quote and we talk of

Christ we rejoice in Christ we preach of

Christ and we prophesy of Christ that

our children may know to what source

they may look for a remission of their

sins and now seeing that ye know the

light by which you may judge which is

the Light of Christ I beseech you that

you should search diligently in the

Light of Christ and if you will lay hold

upon every good thing and condemn it not

ye certainly will be a child of Christ

it's hard to believe that our friend

here Matt Fred has actually said that

Catholic should burn those words because

he believes that the Book of Mormon is

demonic but if you actually read the

book you will find the Book of Mormon

explicitly puts Jesus Christ at its

Center and that is why doing and that is

why along with the Bible it is the power

to change people including me and that

is why despite derision and mockery I am

here to Proclaim The Book of Mormon is

another divinely inspired Testament of Jesus

Jesus

Christ so here here's what I want Trent

to do I want him to stick his head in a

hat and I want him to dictate eight

single spage PES single space pages

every day for the next 2 and a half

months and create a poetic and

Theological work with multiple narrators

that predict specific undiscovered

locations in the near East and that

correctly predicts dozens of elements

specific to those locations he will also

need to come up with over a dozen

undiscovered names in the ancient near

East and dictate over a dozen poetic Kay

asms including one with on human

Redemption with 17 elements given in one

order and then repeated back in reverse

order all with his face buried in a hat

also he'll need to create multiple

authentic Hebrew word plays predict the

Undiscovered name of an ancient

Israelite Prince and create 300 names

with plausible Hebrew Origins without

using the letters w q or X he must do

this stream of Consciousness dictation

in the presence of multiple Witnesses

and he must do it in a single draft and

what he produces must be called genius

by atheist literary critics 150 years

from now then he must convince 19 people

so powerfully that they saw gold plates

that they don't deny their testimonies

even on their deathbeds or even after he

excommunicates them from his

church I posit that it is unreasonable

to think that Trent could do all of

these things and so it is unreasonable

now Trent and I both agree it is

reasonable to believe that the Bible is

inspired but despite the archaeological

literary historical eyewitness and

spiritual evidence Trent will reject the

inspiration behind the Book of Mormon

and this will clearly expose Trent's

double standard Trent will argue like an

atheist today just watch essentially all

of the arguments that Trent makes

against the Book of Mormon are the same

arguments that atheists can make against

the Bible or the Catholic church for

example he'll say that the Book of

Mormon is not inspired because he thinks

that there's not enough archaeological

evidence but will Trent apply that same

standard to the Book of Exodus or the

many other biblical books that lack

essentially any archaeological evidence

for the events that they

describe he'll talk about anachronisms

in The Book of in the Book of Mormon but

he'll ignore biblical anachronisms like

iron tools being made by tubalcain a

thousand or more years before the Iron

Age so watch carefully will Trent deal

with the evidence that I've presented or

will he argue like an atheist and

without a you my time all right thanks

very much Trent you have 15 minutes

whenever you start talking I'll click the

[Music]

timer all

righty this is fun

all right well thank you Matt thank you

Jacob excuse

me in 1986 the Mormon president as rath

Benson said just as the arch crumbles if

the Keystone is removed so does all the

church stand or fall with the

truthfulness of the Book of Mormon so

Jacob is the burden of showing The Book

of Mormon is divinely inspired he gave

some reasons and I'll address those in

my rebuttal and I'll show that I

certainly don't argue with a double

standard but for now I want to give you

four reasons positive reasons to show

the Book of Mormon is merely a human

document so number one Geographic

mystery many bibles contain maps that

describe where biblical events took

place if you get Christian Jewish and

atheistic Scholars together in a room

they would agree on those Maps even

though they disagree about what happened

at those sites but you can't do that for

the Book of Mormon in spite of all its

geographical references Mormons only

know the events in the Book of Mormon

took place somewhere in North and South

America some Mormons say they took place

in Central America others say as far

away is the great lak of the American

Heartland that would be like Christians

disagreeing on whether Jesus was

crucified in Judea or England and the

silence in the archaeological record is

deafening for example one of the largest

cities in ancient America kokia had

about 20,000 people spread out over a

100 earthwork settlements but zarahemla

a city in the Book of Mormon that had at

least 100,000 people in it has never

been found we haven't even found a

single example of Hebrew or Egyptian

script that should be in the new world

if the book of Mor were true though we

have found ancient examples of words

like Israel in the old world Mormons

can't even agree on which real rivers or

mountains are described in the Book of

Mormon Fletcher B Hammond wrote in the

geography of the Book of Mormon that God

changed the world's topography after the

fact so that Faith would be required to

believe in the Book of Mormon very

convenient plus the Book of Mormon

contains things we know did not exist in

ancient America and these anachronisms

are nothing like what is alleged in

scripture for example it describes

horses and chariots even though there

were no chariots and horses were

introduced after Christopher Columbus

some Mormons say the word horses refers

to tapers they look like kind of big

weird looking pigs in Central and South

America and the Chariots were litters

carried by other humans but then why are

the horses always mentioned with the

Chariots if they didn't pull them and

why would you want an overgrown Pig with

a royal litter it's no wonder the

National Geographic Society has said

archaeologists and other Scholars have

long probed the hemisphere's past and

the society does not know of anything

found so far that is substantiated the

Book of Mormon and while not every

biblical event has archaeological

confirmation Scholars roughly agree on

where they allegedly happened and this

is far different than an entire ancient

history like what is alleged in the Book

of Mormon having no archaeological

evidence for it including alleged things

found in the old world like nah nahome

from letters that are just nhm and other

words that are very similar to Hebrew

words all right number two my second

reason is that Joseph Smith was a false

prophet the book of Deuteronomy says a

false prophet leads people away from the

true God and he fails to predict the

future Jose Joseph Smith is guilty on

both of these counts so we should not

believe God used a false prophet like

him to transmit inspired

Revelation in his history of the church

Smith prophesied that Jesus would return

sometime in the 19th century and that

the government of the United States

would be over Throne both of which of

course didn't happen Mormons like to say

Joseph Smith predicted the Civil War 30

years before it happened but anyone at

the time knew there were troubles

between the North and South Smith also

predicted that quote war will be poured

out upon All Nations beginning at this

place but no other nations fought in the

American Civil War which shows this was

a false prophecy and Smith definitely

LED people away to believe in false gods

at the funeral for Elder King fette

Joseph Smith said God himself was once

as we are now and is an exalted man and

sits enthroned in Yonder Heavens

according to the book of Abraham which

Smith also allegedly translated God is a

superpowered man who rules near a star

or planet named kab if Mormons are

faithful enough they too can become gods

and rule over their own universes

alongside the spouses they married in

this life but this contradicts a central

truth about God the Creator is not and

never has been a creature the omnipotent

God can become man or assume a human

nature along with his divine nature but

man cannot become God the fact that

Smith taught the contrary means he is a

false prophet speaking of the book of

Abraham Smith claimed he translated an

ancient Papyrus written in Abraham's own

hand that talks about the gods creating

the world but even Mormon egyptologists

agree that the Papyrus he allegedly

translated from was simply a collection

of second century Egyptian funerary

texts that say nothing about Abraham and

definitely were not written by him some

Mormon apologists claimed that Joseph

Smith was just using the papy to help

him write down visions that he had but

in his own diary Smith claims to have

translated the document he even wrote an

Egyptian alphabet and grammar to help

him translate even though he wasn't

actually doing that but it's not only

the book of Abraham that reveals that

Smith was a false prophet this is a 3/4

scale model of the gold the alleged

Golden Plates The Book of Mormon was

translated from uh 23 of them were

sealed and couldn't be opened so that

means there were at most 40 plates about

6X 8 in with characters on them all

right and on these 40 plates there would

have been enough characters to contain

information in the 550 pages of the book

of Morman in order to contain that much

information every character on this

plate on any of these plates would have

to represent 50 to 80 words but ancient

hieroglyphics do not work like that

Joseph Smith thought they did until

decades later in the 19th century EG uh

the language of the Egyptians was

deciphered and we saw that that is not

the case actual ancient metal plates

like the plates of Darius only contain

about 200 words per page what is in the

Book of Mormon could not on any

so-called reformed Egyptian or any real

language have been contained on alleged

Golden Plates like these this shows

Smith's Claim about the reformed

Egyptian was simply part of his own

imagination in 1828 Martin Harris

offered to assist Joseph Smith in the

translation of the plates but Harris

lost 116 pages of the translated

manuscript that Smith gave him so Smith

claimed in response that God was angry

at the loss of the pages and he and God

would only allow Smith to translate that

story from another set of plates that

were included those plates told the same

story as the original manuscripts that

were lost but from a slightly different

perspective now this all seems odd

doesn't it well it doesn't seem odd if

you think that if Smith were just

dictating a story from memory and not

actually translating it would have been

nearly impossible for him to reproduce

what he originally dictated to Martin

Harris and prove he wasn't a prophet

Smith even describes in his book

Doctrine and Covenants how his critics

would have used the loss of the pages to

try to prove he was not miraculously

translating the Golden Plates and so he

wasn't a prophet finally Smith did what

many false prophets have done throughout

history he used his status to acquire

power such such as by becoming a town

mayor running for president of the

United States and acquiring multiple

wives for himself some as young as 14

years old which was very large age

difference even in the 19th century

where women on average married at the

age of 20 or 21 Smith lied to his wife

Emma about two of these marriages his

sister to Sisters Emily and Alisa

Partridge and one Mormon apologist even

admits it is certainly true that Joseph

did not disclose all of his plural

marriages precisely when they happened

that's one way to put it Smith also

ordered a printing press to be destroyed

for publishing works that were critical

of him he was later arrested in

connection to this act and died in a

shootout using a gun smuggled into the

jail where he was being held Joseph

Smith was not a true Prophet who died a

martyr's death he was a false prophet

who met the ignoble end of so many other

false prophets throughout history number

three the argument from plagiarism and

mediocrity I'm not Mormon for the same

reason Jacob isn't Muslim many Muslims

say the Quran Must Be divinely Inspired

because an illiterate Shepherd could not

have composed something so beautiful and

complex now Jacob might say Muhammad

maybe he wasn't incapable of doing that

or maybe somebody else wrote the Quran

but he would say any human explanation

is far more likely than God giving a

public Revelation that contradicts what

he had already revealed in scripture for

example and that's what I say about the

Book of Mormon now I will say this The

Book of Mormon is good and original

however the good parts aren't original

to the Book of Mormon and the original

parts aren't good when it comes to the

actual original parts of the Book of

Mormon they do lack a Divine quality

while many non-christians are familiar

with eloquent biblical stories like the

parable of the prodigal son or The

Sermon on the Mount non-mormons are

unaware of anything as eloquent in the

Book of Mormon far from being divinely

inspired the book is barely inspired by

human standards for example Mark Twain

thought the Bible was false but Twain

also ad the Bible had quote Noble poetry

in it and some clever fables when it

comes to the Book of Mormon however Mark

Twain said the following it is

chloroform in print if Joseph Smith

composed this book The Act was a miracle

keeping awake that is whenever he found

a speech growing too modern which was

about every sentence or two he ladled in

a few such scriptural phrases as

exceeding sore and it came to pass which

was his pet phrase if he had left that

out his Bible would have been

only a pamphlet indeed the entire book

feels like a mediocre novel delivered by

a sermon that's gone on far too long as

can be seen in over 1500 uses of the

phrase and it came to pass which helped

break up the narrative for someone who

is orally presenting it Smith's

presentation was also aided by ripping

off hundreds of New Testament themes and

imagery that he repackaged for

characters in his story for example if

you look at Alma 19 in John 11 you can

clearly tell the same vocabulary

languages used from the raising of

Lazarus including the unique word he

stinketh uh in fact one out of seven

verses in the Book of Mormon Smith

simply copied from the King James Bible

which he was intimately familiar with as

he said In 1832 including its own

grammatical errors that somehow show up

in an ancient text now the entire

chapters of Isaiah that are copied in

the Book of Mormon could be explained by

ancient Americans regurgitating their

alleged Israelite history but that does

not explain copies of the New Testament

they would not have known about being

quoted in the Book of Mormon because

they had already left the holy land and

wouldn't have access to that for example

Moroni CH 10 directly copies 1

Corinthian 12's list of spiritual gifts

wisdom knowledge Faith healing Miracles

prophecy and discernment of spirits all

in that order but Moroni allegedly

living in the 4th Century America would

have only known the Old Testament of his

alleged ancestors he could not have

known about Paul's first letter the

Corinthians that's why in his defense of

the Book of Mormon Robert Bennett says

Smith inadvertently slipped into

language with which he was familiar

which we'd expect from a good

Storyteller and someone doesn't have to

have formal schooling to be a good

Storyteller Mark Twain himself had very

little formal education Smith's own

mother Lucy macsmith said the following

about Joseph Smith in her autobiography

during our evening conversations Joseph

would occasionally give us some of the

most amusing recitals That Could Be

Imagined he would describe the ancient

inhabitants of of this continent their

dress mode of traveling and the animals

on upon which they rode their cities

their buildings with every particular

their mode of warfare and also their

religious worship this he could do with

as much ease seemingly as if he had

spent his whole life with them finally

there's a troubling fact the basic story

of The Book of Mormon that Native

Americans were descendants of Jews who

migrated to America in 600 BC had been

published a few years earlier in a book

called view of the Hebrews written by

Ethan Smith fwn Brody the author of the

first scholarly biography of Joseph

Smith says the Striking parallelisms

between the two books hardly leave a

case for mere coincidence indeed the

idea that Native Americans were the

descendants of ancient Jews who

immigrated to the Americas was a common

one in the 19th century so it fits

within the claim that a human author

concocted the story especially since the

science of genetics proves Native

Americans are not descendants of Jewish

migrants that disproves Smith's claim

that quote Smith said this our Western

tribes of Indian are descendants from

that Joseph which was sold into

Egypt now uh oh and now number number

four uh the the Catholic argument

against the Book of Mormon so the second

Vatican Council taught that the

Christian dispensation therefore as the

new and definitive Covenant will never

pass away and we now await no further

new public Revelation before the

Glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus

Christ Mormons and Catholics agree that

Jesus established a hierarchical visible

Church led by successors of the apost

apostles who possessed the priesthood we

just disagree with the Mormon claim that

this church left the Earth for 1700

years until Joseph Smith allegedly

restored it after all Jesus said the

Gates of Hell shall not Prevail against

the church moreover this church gave us

sure knowledge of the very Canon of

scripture found in the King James Bible

that Mormons rely on as their sacred

text but the church that gave us the

Bible authoritatively also teaches there

has been no new public Revelation since

the time of the Apostles which includes

The Book of Mormon so one can make this

argument if Catholicism is true The Book

of Mormon is not divinely inspired and

Catholicism is true so the Book of

Mormon is not divinely inspired this is

a valid argument so if Jacob can't

disprove Catholicism that means

Catholics should reject the Book of

Mormon but even if you are not Catholic

the fact that Mormons cannot agree on

where the events in the Book of Mormon

allegedly took place Joseph Smith was an

error when he tried to divinely

translate or prophesy and the Book of

Mormon contains obvious plag isms of

Works its authors would not have known

about gives us good reason to believe

the Book of Mormon was merely the

product of human beings and is not a

divinely inspired text and the arguments

I've given would apply to the Book of

Mormon but do not apply in any way to

the Bible thank you all right thank you

Trent we now move into our first

rebuttal so Jacob you have uh seven

minutes whenever you'd like to start

okay all right

so um it's kind of funny how he says

that none of these arguments apply to

the Bible like he's talking about the

lack of archaeology I've noticed he

didn't bring up anything about

archaeology in the book of Exodus um in

fact the archaeological evidence related

to The Book of Exodus is abysmal um and

even uh Jimmy Aken a good friend of of

Trent uh did an episode on it you guys

should watch it it's it's pretty funny

because he literally makes all the exact

same arguments that you hear people make

about the Book of Mormon when they're

unsure about the archaeology but there's

a difference

we do know the location of where the

Exodus took place and so it's really odd

to hear him have this double standard um

the other thing is is the Catholic

argument I mean if I came to the this

debate and I said Trent um or a Muslim

let's say came to this debate and said

well Islam is true therefore anything

that contradicts it uh must be false

that's that's the sort of reasoning that

we're going with here like that's that

just seems really below Trent's kind of

caliber of argument now to get into a

few of the different things first of all

I want to ask a question what has more

archaeological evidence the book of

first Nephi in the Book of Mormon or the

book of Exodus in the Bible I have

brought up not just that nahome had

three letters in it that are correct I

it's not just a name they found nahome

the it was at the Eastern Trail or

Eastern turn in the frankincense Trail

just as the Book of Mormon describes

it's a burial grounds they found a grave

there from the sixth Century with the

name ish I not saying it's the mail but

they did find one and then directly east

of there is a rare Coastal Oasis with a

dozen specific features that align with

it to say that there's no archaeological

evidence whatsoever for the Book of

Mormon is just absurd because can you

imagine how excited Trent would be if we

had that kind of archaeological evidence

for the book of Exodus or any of the

first five books of the Bible for that

matter the entire Torah go look it

up um it's funny Trent's friend Jimmy

Akin said the quote the absence of

evidence for the book of Exodus is not

necessarily evidence of absence so

that's the standard Trent holds to with

the book of Exodus but he doesn't hold

that for the Book of Mormon

Mormon

so let's move on to let's talk a little bit

bit

about um the plagiarism argument again

Jimmy Jimmy helped me out on this one

because people say well there's biblical

quotes in there so it must be a

plagiarized book here's Jimmy said about

the plagiarism argument he said quote

this isn't a good argument ancient texts

would borrow from each other so it's

something that you would expect in the

ancient world the fact that there are

passages in the Bible in fact there are

passages in the Bible that do exactly

this if you look at Isaiah 2: 2-4 it has

exactly the same Prophecy in the same

words as Micah verses 1-3 and mic

doesn't give credit to Isaiah Scholars

have a name for this they call it

intertextual ual it and we fed it in the

Bible so I wouldn't criticize The Book

of Mormon for it so again it just shows

that Trent will allow for

intertextuality in the Bible but he

won't in the Book of Mormon the other

thing is that Trent has a whole video

about about how translations are done

and he talks about the difference

between a literal equivalence

translation and a dynamic equivalence

translation in other words the

difference between translating idea for

idea versus literal word for word The

Book of Mormon is clearly a dynamic

translation of an ancient text into the

King James English of the 19th century

utilizing the vocabulary available to

Joseph Smith so when you have things

like anachronisms which do exist in the

Bible you come across things like

this the Bible in English talks about

candlesticks but candlesticks didn't

exist in the first century Palestine so

there there's a very reasonable

explanation for this that Trent would

talk about it's called a translators

anachronism sometimes when doing a

translation you have to use more modern

words or concepts that are familiar to

familiar to your audience in order to

convey the intended meaning Trent will

allow this for the Bible but for some

reason he won't consider it as a

possibility for the Book of Mormon but I

guess it's probably because his line of

logic ultimately is the Catholic church

is true therefore the Book of Mormon

must be false and he's unwilling to even

question that

assumption so there is a difference

between an actual anachronism and an

apparent anachronism what Trent didn't

mention is that about 60 years ago they

until it wasn't barley was an

anachronism and Trent even had it in his

book but it actually isn't an

anachronism they found little barley so

remember just because something is an

apparent anachronism doesn't mean it's

an actual anachronism and so when you

consider both translators anachronisms

and apparent anachronisms you can

account for these things that seem out

of place in the Book of Mormon let's

talk real quick about Joseph Smith um

first of all it's funny Trent says this

about the Catholic church he says if

some members of the church fail in the

moral life that does not change if the

church's teachings are true so he's

going after Joseph Smith's character

using kind of recycled gossip and and

things that and assertions that aren't

true um it it'd be like me going to

James White to find out about the

history of the Catholic church right um

he can dig into that rumor mill all he

wants also it's funny he implies that

Joseph Smith used his position in the

church to get sex with more women but

for some reason he doesn't apply that

same standard to Abraham or Jacob or the

many other biblical prophets that had

more than one wife

now also does Trent realize that St

Augustine and St Thomas aquinus said

that plural marriage can be justified in some

some

circumstances also here's some things

you guys don't know about Joseph Smith

okay first of all there is a difference

between a sealing and a marriage Joseph

was sealed to a lot of women guess how

many children he had with women other

than his wife Emma who he by the way had

like got pregnant like 11 times zero no

other woman besides Emma ever conceived

and they've tried to find people that

they thought were tied to Joseph Smith

and every time they find they were wrong

the reality is we don't know a lot about

the nature of Joseph's ceilings to these

other women but it's easy to dig into

the r Rumor Mill to try and go after

Joseph to avoid talking about the Book

of Mormon that's time all right Trent

minutes all righty

righty

okay look even if Joseph Smith didn't

write this book that doesn't mean that

God Did It The Book of Mormon is not so

complex it has to be divine there's

about 350 names in The Book of Mormon

onethird of them are biblical names like

ishmail and another third are variants

like Nome with an O instead of n wh with

a u in scripture when it comes to

alleged hebraisms in the text that would

make sense if it's trying to imitate the

King James Bible which is an English

translation of originally Hebrew

documents but the book of Mor is weird

because it's a 19th century translation

that makes ancient Jews sound like 17th

century Christians and the King James

English was not what was spoken in

Joseph Smith's time it's more rather he

wants to make the Book of Mormon sound

like the King James Bible when it comes

to the Kay asms that Jacob brought up

those things come up in all kinds of

literature even Dr Seuss and as scholar

Earl wonderly has shown the most

impressive KMS like Alma 36 they only

exist if you cherry-pick the text and

ignore where it's not actually chastic

and Smith didn't have to be literate in

fact Studies have shown that illiterate

people have better memories think about

all the phone numbers you used to know

before you got a cell phone uh a friend

said that Joseph Smith's father had a

tongue as smooth as oil uh one witness

said Joe Joseph Smith could beat them

all for tough stories and Smith was

acquainted with local Native Americans

like red jacket or handsome Lake that

stirred his imagin for those people's

connection to Christianity we also keep

in mind that Joseph Smith was a member

of the ju of a juvenile debating society

and school children at that time could

memorize entire things like the entire

Gospel of Matthew in a few weeks or give

impromptu sermons that lasted for hours

and of course 10% of the Book of Mormon

are just copies of the Bible nman Perry

has shown that Slavic oral story tellers

can recite epic poems over 300,000 words

in length longer than the Book of Mormon

I would say say in just a few weeks so

the Book of Mormon being recited in a

few months is not impossible by human

standards Smith recited 4,000 words per

day to scribes who wrote at a speed of

about 10 words per minute and we speak

at about 150 words per minute that's

plenty of time to give a recitation and

the Book of Mormon is filled with stock

phrases like behold or and it came to

pass as well as recycled story

structures to help an oral prenter

recite it moreover unlike Christ or the

apostles Joseph Smith and Muhammad

anyone else they didn't perform any

verifiable miracles to authenticate

their status as prophets all we have is

a book that allegedly no human being

could create and as I said even if it

wasn't Smith maybe it could be someone

else someone else we haven't been shown

that only God could have been

responsible for this book or the Quran

or any similar kind of book coming into

existence and the argument well by their

fruits we know them well that could also

apply to the Quran people say the Quran

makes Muslims pray five times a day and

they have wonderful communities and

exhibit all these moral

fruits but you and the same argument

could go against Catholicism I could say

not against but I could say look

Catholicism must be true early Mormon

teachers interpreted the book of

Mormon's references to the great and

abominable Church in the Book of Mormon

they referen that to being the Catholic

church but how could the Catholic Church

be great and abominable or be false if

it's produced so many great Saints

throughout history we can't compare

fruit versus fruit Mormons are very nice

people Jacob's the nicest person I've

debated especially recently but we can't

compare Fruit versus fruit we have to

compare evidence versus evidence so what

about these alleged witnesses to the

Book of Mormon all we have are eight

people who allegedly saw Golden Plates

under cloth saw some kind of artifact

whether it was true or not and we have

three Witnesses who claimed to have seen

a claimed to have seen an angel though

all we have is their handwriting over a

state we have uh signatures of their

names written in all of cow's writing by

the way not their own signatures to

these testimonies but look at these

Witnesses the three Witnesses are David

Whitmer Martin Harris and Oliver cowery

let's start with David Whitmer he later

left the Mormon church and he said in an

address to all Christians God spake to

me again by his own voice from the

heavens and told me to separate myself

from among Latter-Day Saints if I found

out one of the Apostles left Jesus after

his resurrection I'd be very nervous to

hear that but none of them did that so

we see there's a difference between the

Bible and

Mormonism second there's Oliver cower he

was a cousin of Joseph Smith he was

involved beforehand he knew Smith he

claimed to have seen Visions before he

met Smith and he also claimed that

dowsing rods could speak to him he also

lived in the same city as Ethan Smith

the author of view of the Hebrews that

may have served as a source of the Book

of Mormon finally there's Martin Harris

one of the primary translators Harris

mortgaged his farm to fund the

publishing of the Book of Mormon which

means he had a huge financial motivation

to convince people of its truthfulness

multiple sources say though he was

incredibly superstitious in 1842 John

Clark said of Martin Harris Harris was

ready to be duped by anything no matter

where he went he saw visions and

Supernatural appearances one time he

said he met the Lord Jesus Christ who

walk by the side of him in the shape of

a deer for two or three miles talking

with him as familiarly as one talks with

another Harris also admitted he only saw

the plates with spiritual eyes and some

people left the church as a result of

that and Harris himself would say things

that are contradictory that he says yes

I saw this like you see me but he also

said I saw the Golden Plates just as

distinctly as I see anything around me

though at the time they were covered

over with a cloth early Mormons were

part of a magical worldview that

believed in things like Second Sight so

seeing things with a spiritual eye or a

natural eye was sometimes seen as being

the same thing and we also have the

other Witnesses talking about only

having seen it in a vision David Whitmer

said that the angel was something he did

not see it was an impression that he

felt uh so going forward there's no

conclusive proof that any of them saw

something Supernatural rather they were

primed to see or feel an angel when

Joseph Smith prophesied it while

translating and moved them to do that as

for the plates in 1843 brass plates were

Unearthed in Kinder hook Illinois Smith

claimed that they referred to an

Egyptian descendant of ham but a

blacksmith made them they were in hoax

in 1845 James Strang an early Mormon

Center claimed to have translated metal

plates and non-m Mormons confirmed they

existed which never happened for the

Book of Mormon Martin Harris one of the

original Book of Mormon Witnesses left

the Church of Jesus Christ latterday

Saints left Joseph Smith's church and

became one of String's followers for a

brief period Jacob doesn't believe in

James strings plates he doesn't believe

in the Kinderhook plates and I don't

believe in Joseph Smith's plates and

I'll address the other objections that

Jacob raised in my nextra bottal all

right thank you very much we're now

moving into second rebuttal of four

minutes each uh Jacob whenever you want

to begin okay I'll just read a couple of

quotes about the character of these

Witnesses let's talk for a minute about

Martin Harris Evie grandon said that

Martin Harris was among the early sers

of Palmyra he has everborn the character

of an honorable and upright man and a

biging and benevolent neighbor had

secured to himself an by Honest

Integrity a respectable Fortune he has

left a large circle of acquaint

acquaintances and friends to pity his

delusion in other words what eie grandon

was saying is that he was a super

awesome guy so we're kind of in shock

that he ended up following this this is

actually a hostile witness who's

testifying to his character the reality

is is that all of these quotes if you

actually look up the sources on them

they're all from people who hated Joseph

in the church and so they were out being

the ones saying this but when you

actually look at the people who knew

these Witnesses I you find a totally

different story I read I highly

recommend Richard Anderson's book on the

witnesses um the same thing can be said

about Oliver cowry um

the uh Ohio House of Representatives uh

John bresin he said of him Mr cry was a

citizen that n none could have been more

esteemed his honesty integrity and

Industry were worthy of the imitation of

all all of the sources you will hear

from the other people these are all

antagonistic hateful witnesses to the

church so um and also saying they only

saw under a cloth that just shows that

Trent does not know what he's talking

about they very clearly talked about it

in the statements themselves that are in

The Book of Mormon you can see that they

say that they handled the plates they

looked at the characters like they were

fully involved in it but I am glad we're

making progress here because Trent is

recognizing that Joseph must have been

some sort of a genius Storyteller with a

an incredible imagination but that's all

just speculation his own mother also

said which he didn't bring this up that

Joseph was less inclined to read books

than any of her other children okay

Joseph's own wife these people knew him

best so Joseph couldn't even write well

word letter and if you go read the

actual letters written by Joseph Smith

you very quickly learn that this was not

a highly literate and educated man

everyone thought that Joseph Smith was a

doofus even his mom and his and and at

least in educational wise um and and the

neighbors like nobody disagreed that's

one of the reasons that people were so

amazed by The Book of Mormon especially

those closest to him who knew him

him

um I am glad though that he did come up

with the idea that he after hearing all

the evidence that I presented that well

maybe Joseph didn't actually write this

maybe someone else did well and who

Trent needs to come up with a plausible

theory for where this book came from we

have the book and the book is contrary

to what he says it's incredible you have

the thing is the people like uh who just

read on kind of a surface level it

sounds just like the atheists who read

the Bible on a surface level and they're

like this is a bunch of superstitious

weirdo nonsense from from a stone AG

group of people okay that's the kind of

people that Trent is quoting here okay

but people who actually study it deeply

like Harold Bloom who's an atheist is

like this guy's a genius

we got Pulitzer Prize winners saying

that this book uh is among the greatest

works of American literature you can say

a lot of things about the Book of Mormon

you can't say that it's simple or dumb

and it's hilarious because Trent brought

up and it came to pass as some problem

what he doesn't realizes and it came to

pass is actually a hebraism because

Hebrew didn't have punctuation and so

what they would do is they would use

phrases like and it came to pass in

order to break up different things those

are they you're right they are in the

Bible and they usually are in historical

narratives in the Bible and the Bible in

the King James version has a lot of

those actually taken out because they

became so redundant so the redundancy of

that phrase is actually evidence of its Hebrew

Hebrew

Origins um also the fruits of Islam I'm

sorry go and visit Muslim majority

countries the fruits of Islam are not

comparable to the fruits of what Joseph

is produced amongst the Latter-Day Saints

um also um he brought up the last 116

Pages well here's a problem if Joseph

was had a manuscript somehow last time

oh last time you can wrap up you s well

I'll just leave it at that okay all

right thank you very much we are now

going to take a very short break and

then when we come I a second I am sorry

gets another one you have four minutes

right all right so remember that Jacob

is the one who has the bird of showing

The Book of Mormon is divinely inspired

I do not have the burden of proving who

exactly wrote it or who didn't he is the

one who is trying to prove that God must

have been involved in the creation of

this book and I am saying he has not met

that level of proof at all so the

evidence that he's given us he said oh

you're only quoting people that hate the

church that's not true when David

Whitmer said that he left the woman

faith and he had wanted to have nothing

to do with it and God told him that

that's whitmer's own word that I'm

quoting or when I'm quoting Martin

Harris I'm quoting a test a interview

Harris gave in 1859 I'm quoting the

actual people's words and yes people did

say Harris and cowery were honest or

good people but you can be honest and be

incredibly superstitious and my point

about Harris was that he was a Visionary

fanatic is what people described of him

someone who saw Spooks in the

Supernatural around every corner that he

turned and was primed to see things that

weren't there so we have not been given

good evidence evidence that only God

could have inspired this based on the

witnesses that are involved rather than

Joseph Smith himself or any other

Storyteller now what it comes to Smith's

ability to create a book no he he wasn't

good necessarily at writing but you

don't have to be a good writer to be a

good Storyteller you can dictate things

for example read history of the church

dictated by Joseph Smith it's a good

history of his church and he dictated it

to scribes we don't see a bumbling

illiterate person there why couldn't he

dictate other things as well well when I

brought up the plural marriages I

brought I didn't just bring up the first

up I didn't bring up sex by the way

Jacob did I just brought up the fact

that he got multiple wives which many

false prophets have done throughout

history uh but what I did bring up was

that it really makes us question his

honesty and the people I brought up I

wasn't quoting lurid anti-mormons I

quoted Fair a well-known Mormon

apologetics organization admitting that

yes Joseph wasn't entirely honest with

his wife that he had already been sealed

to other women and then reeal to them

but didn't tell his wife this impude his

honesty Oliver cowdery himself in a

letter to his own brother described

Joseph's Rel ceiling with Fanny aler a

16-year-old housekeeper as a dirty nasty

Affair that wasn't an enemy that's cow

though caler was excommunicated all the

witnesses were excommunicated he came

back to the church for just a few months

though before he ended up dying one of

the greatest works of American

literature have you read it do most

professors you know have they read it do

you know any if if you're a non- Mormon

do you know any stories from The Book of

Mormon if you're a non-Christian do you

know stories from the Bible I bet you do

that should make you really question if

it's one of the greatest works of

American literature when it comes to the

argument from plagiarism my point wasn't

that merely there's plagiarism my point

was that the ancient authors who lived

in fourth Century America were quoting

from things like Paul's letter to the

Corinthians that they would not have had

access to because they're descendants of

people who left the old world in 600 BC

it's not play it's not just plagiarism

it's that they were plagiarizing from

things they could not have possibly

known about like First Corinthians or

Alma 32s plagarism of the letter to the

Hebrews and they couldn't have known

about that but Joseph Smith could have

because he's responsible for coming up

with the entire story or whoever the AR

whatever the argument may be so the

arguments weren't refuted the zero

archaeological evidence notice so far

Jacob has not disputed my point about

the new world this isn't like a few

thousand people fleeing Egypt with

disposable Goods that might disappear in

the desert we're talking about over a

thousand years hundreds of thousands of

people building huge settlements

engaging in Warfare with chariots and

iron all sorts of thing in the new world

and Jacob has not disputed my point that

there is zero archaeological evidence

for that which should give us good

thinking that it didn't happen finally

as for the Catholic argument it is not

below my caliber both Jacob and I can

confidently say the Quran is wrong about

Jesus not being crucified because

Christianity is true and because because

Catholicism is true Mormonism is false

all right so now now we're going to have

a quick break and come back for

cross-examination 15 minutes each and

then Q&A uh do us a favor if you're

enjoying this debate if you think it's

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share the video subscribe if you dare

and um feel free to put in super chats

for the Q&A but just realize that we may

we probably won't get to all of them

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15 any

sinner is capable of being a great

Saint and any

a great CER a great CER a great [Music]

[Applause] [Music]

the secret therefore of character development is the realization of this

development is the realization of this power when we're back okay we're back oh

power when we're back okay we're back oh we're back okay good all right so we are

we're back okay good all right so we are going into a time of

going into a time of cross-examination you tell me what y'all

cross-examination you tell me what y'all think here's what I like to think when

think here's what I like to think when with cross-examine like so you're going

with cross-examine like so you're going to take the first 15 minutes MH that

to take the first 15 minutes MH that means you are free to ask him questions

means you are free to ask him questions to direct the conversation wherever you

to direct the conversation wherever you want it to go to even interrupt him if

want it to go to even interrupt him if he's fusting or being boring um and

he's fusting or being boring um and that's not being rude that's just part

that's not being rude that's just part of the cross examination right and then

of the cross examination right and then the same thing will happen for you

the same thing will happen for you you're welcome to interrupt him to

you're welcome to interrupt him to interject to lead the conversation does

interject to lead the conversation does that sound good sounds great that's good

that sound good sounds great that's good um I know these are usually the most

um I know these are usually the most exciting parts of the debates but I

exciting parts of the debates but I think it's really great that both of you

think it's really great that both of you had some time to lay out your your main

had some time to lay out your your main arguments so um whenever you want Jacob

arguments so um whenever you want Jacob you have 15 minutes okay let's get

you have 15 minutes okay let's get started um so Trent why does the Book of

started um so Trent why does the Book of Mormon published in 1830 correctly

Mormon published in 1830 correctly predict that King zedekiah had a son

predict that King zedekiah had a son named muck if we didn't know that until

named muck if we didn't know that until the 20th century

the 20th century what people have discovered is that he

what people have discovered is that he had a son his name was mulu it's not

had a son his name was mulu it's not exactly M so there's a lot of things

exactly M so there's a lot of things happen there where the Book of Mormon

happen there where the Book of Mormon will create names usually Portman TOS

will create names usually Portman TOS like combinations of ancient names for

like combinations of ancient names for example and they tend to line up with

example and they tend to line up with that I'm sure you you know do you know

that I'm sure you you know do you know the shortened version of that name is

the shortened version of that name is muck possible yeah okay um so next why

muck possible yeah okay um so next why does the Book of Mormon have over a

does the Book of Mormon have over a dozen authentic Hebrew names that were

dozen authentic Hebrew names that were not discovered until long after Joseph

not discovered until long after Joseph sm's death well Joseph Smith did have

sm's death well Joseph Smith did have access to thing like josephus's

access to thing like josephus's Antiquities of the Jews uh there was

Antiquities of the Jews uh there was also what's your Source on that that's

also what's your Source on that that's what Scholars Scholars recog that was

what Scholars Scholars recog that was something that had already been

something that had already been translated that there's any do you have

translated that there's any do you have any evidence that Joseph actually had

any evidence that Joseph actually had that book I don't need to have access

that book I don't need to have access that I don't need to have evidence that

that I don't need to have evidence that he possessed it but if it's something

he possessed it but if it's something that he could access within his own New

that he could access within his own New York library or for example things like

York library or for example things like The Book of Enoch were all in 1825 in

The Book of Enoch were all in 1825 in New

New York that's a separate subject

York that's a separate subject question iog graphical Jewish literature

question iog graphical Jewish literature that has names in it that was available

that has names in it that was available in the time and place and you have no

in the time and place and you have no evidence that Joseph had any of that

evidence that Joseph had any of that right he lived in a context where it's

right he lived in a context where it's available okay all right you ConEd do

available okay all right you ConEd do you concede the existence of kmus

you concede the existence of kmus literary form in the Book of Mormon the

literary form in the Book of Mormon the kaym is something that appears in all

kaym is something that appears in all kinds of literature 17 17 item KMS you

kinds of literature 17 17 item KMS you know regularly appear you were talking

know regularly appear you were talking about Al the kaym in Alma 36 17 Alma 36

about Al the kaym in Alma 36 17 Alma 36 uh and as I quoted I quoted other

uh and as I quoted I quoted other Scholars like Earl wonderly who are

Scholars like Earl wonderly who are skeptical that it is a chastic structure

skeptical that it is a chastic structure that you only get that by cherry-picking

that you only get that by cherry-picking the data kind of do you think you might

the data kind of do you think you might have a bias against against Mormonism no

have a bias against against Mormonism no I wouldn't say so I think it's actually

I wouldn't say so I think it's actually published in dialogue the Journal of

published in dialogue the Journal of Mormon thought why does the Book of

Mormon thought why does the Book of Mormon correctly predict over a dozen

Mormon correctly predict over a dozen specific characteristics of a 20m

specific characteristics of a 20m stretch of Coastline in the doar region

stretch of Coastline in the doar region of Oman because I even if I couldn't

of Oman because I even if I couldn't answer that question that wouldn't prove

answer that question that wouldn't prove that the book is divinely inspired but

that the book is divinely inspired but just predicting things like roads go

just predicting things like roads go east or west or that they'll have

east or west or that they'll have certain things that are similar to other

certain things that are similar to other elements in the desert or in the Old

elements in the desert or in the Old Testament that's not very impressive do

Testament that's not very impressive do you do you believe that the devil is

you do you believe that the devil is pleased when people read the book of

pleased when people read the book of Mormon do I believe the devil is pleased

Mormon do I believe the devil is pleased when they read it I don't know if

when they read it I don't know if someone reads it and comes to see that

someone reads it and comes to see that it's Meandering that it's false like I'm

it's Meandering that it's false like I'm not afraid of people Cho let me quote a

not afraid of people Cho let me quote a verse from would you like me to finish

verse from would you like me to finish my answer well I think it's kind of

my answer well I think it's kind of filibustering I'm just going to read a

filibustering I'm just going to read a verse from the book of seconds but all

verse from the book of seconds but all right that which is this is from the

right that which is this is from the I 7 it says that which is evil

I 7 it says that which is evil cometh of the devil for the Devil is an

cometh of the devil for the Devil is an enemy unto God and inviteth and enti and

enemy unto God and inviteth and enti and enti to sin and to do that which is evil

enti to sin and to do that which is evil but behold everything which inviteth and

but behold everything which inviteth and enti to do good and to love God and to

enti to do good and to love God and to serve him is inspired of God wherefore I

serve him is inspired of God wherefore I show unto you the way to judge for

show unto you the way to judge for everything which persuade to Believe In

everything which persuade to Believe In Christ is sent forth by the gift and

Christ is sent forth by the gift and power and of Christ does leading people

power and of Christ does leading people towards Christ in order to to serve God

towards Christ in order to to serve God sound like the kind of thing that the

sound like the kind of thing that the devil wants people to do I could say the

devil wants people to do I could say the same thing about the Whit marites the

same thing about the Whit marites the Shakers all other kinds of 19th century

Shakers all other kinds of 19th century restorationist Cults that make very

restorationist Cults that make very similar claims to Mormons but Mormons

similar claims to Mormons but Mormons reject that also try to lead people to

reject that also try to lead people to Christ so works it works for the Whit

Christ so works it works for the Whit marites and the Shakers it doesn't work

marites and the Shakers it doesn't work for the Book of Mormon is the devil the

for the Book of Mormon is the devil the one that's causing latterday Saint

one that's causing latterday Saint Temple marriages to be three to five

Temple marriages to be three to five times less likely to end in divorce no

times less likely to end in divorce no it could just be basic elements of

it could just be basic elements of natural law that if you have very strong

natural law that if you have very strong core values your marriages tend to last

core values your marriages tend to last long many arranged marriages and nonr

long many arranged marriages and nonr lints they get their values from The

lints they get their values from The Book of Mormon do they get their I'm

Book of Mormon do they get their I'm sure that some of them do but as I said

sure that some of them do but as I said in non-Christian area in non-Christian

in non-Christian area in non-Christian parts of the world arrange marriages

parts of the world arrange marriages last very long that doesn't prove those

last very long that doesn't prove those Buddhist or Hindu cultures are true in

Buddhist or Hindu cultures are true in their religious beliefs okay um is it

their religious beliefs okay um is it the devil that's causing latterday

the devil that's causing latterday Saints to give seven times more

Saints to give seven times more volunteer service than your average

volunteer service than your average American no it's just a wonderful robust

American no it's just a wonderful robust tithing program so I I am of that that

tithing program so I I am of that that you got which the Bible itself doesn't

you got which the Bible itself doesn't command tithing though okay um is it the

command tithing though okay um is it the devil that's causing Latter-Day Saints

devil that's causing Latter-Day Saints to know their Bibles better than almost

to know their Bibles better than almost any well better than every other major

any well better than every other major Christian group in the United States I'm

Christian group in the United States I'm sure they know it well I know Jehovah's

sure they know it well I know Jehovah's Witnesses that also know the Bible

Witnesses that also know the Bible backwards and forward but as St Jerome

backwards and forward but as St Jerome said it's not the letter of scripture

said it's not the letter of scripture that matters but it's meaning that's

that matters but it's meaning that's where Mormons fall flat got it um why is

where Mormons fall flat got it um why is it reasonable to believe that the book

it reasonable to believe that the book of Exodus is inspired of God because

of Exodus is inspired of God because Jesus thought that it was and his church

Jesus thought that it was and his church says that it is okay so what is the you

says that it is okay so what is the you have said that the most important

have said that the most important evidence for the resurrection would be

evidence for the resurrection would be the claims that Jesus appeared in bodily

the claims that Jesus appeared in bodily form to groups of his disciples so the

form to groups of his disciples so the most important evidence for the

most important evidence for the resurrection and therefore Christianity

resurrection and therefore Christianity and the Catholic church is the witness

and the Catholic church is the witness testimony of Jesus Christ's Resurrection

testimony of Jesus Christ's Resurrection is that correct correct not all witness

is that correct correct not all witness testimony is equal though okay um how

testimony is equal though okay um how many specific eyewitnesses left extant

many specific eyewitnesses left extant written accounts of the

written accounts of the Resurrection uh well we would say that

Resurrection uh well we would say that you mean first person accounts of it

you mean first person accounts of it yeah it's I Witnesses who left extent

yeah it's I Witnesses who left extent written firsthand accounts of the

written firsthand accounts of the Resurrection well of the moment of the

Resurrection well of the moment of the Resurrection or the post-resurrection

Resurrection or the post-resurrection appearances the moment of the

appearances the moment of the Resurrection the moment of the

Resurrection the moment of the Resurrection happened in the Tomb and

Resurrection happened in the Tomb and nobody was around but that's inferred by

nobody was around but that's inferred by seeing Christ post Resurrection include

seeing Christ post Resurrection include the post-resurrection how many written

the post-resurrection how many written exan accounts do we have from an

exan accounts do we have from an eyewitness yes well if you

eyewitness yes well if you believe that it was John the Apostle

believe that it was John the Apostle that would be one uh other the majority

that would be one uh other the majority of Scholars conclude the Gospel of John

of Scholars conclude the Gospel of John was written by John Scholars don't no

was written by John Scholars don't no but the most important ones we have we

but the most important ones we have we have Paul's letter to the Corinthians

have Paul's letter to the Corinthians that records the appearances and Paul

that records the appearances and Paul had firsthand contact with those who had

had firsthand contact with those who had no he doesn't call it a vision oh so so

no he doesn't call it a vision oh so so it isn't a Visionary experience he said

it isn't a Visionary experience he said he wasn't sure if he was in the body or

he wasn't sure if he was in the body or out of the body he's talking about his

out of the body he's talking about his appearance in the heavens and he

appearance in the heavens and he specifically says there I do not know if

specifically says there I do not know if it was in the body or out of the body

it was in the body or out of the body but he uses a Greek word or that just

but he uses a Greek word or that just means appeared to see and he says in

means appeared to see and he says in First Corinthians have I not seen the

First Corinthians have I not seen the Lord he speaks about it in a normal way

Lord he speaks about it in a normal way which is very different from the Book of

which is very different from the Book of Mormon witnesses that repeatedly say

Mormon witnesses that repeatedly say they saw it in a vision or a trans and

they saw it in a vision or a trans and so how many total people left firsthand

so how many total people left firsthand eyewitness accounts of the Resurrection

eyewitness accounts of the Resurrection can you give me a number I just want a

can you give me a number I just want a number of that that they of that they

number of that that they of that they saw the resurrected Jesus is it more

saw the resurrected Jesus is it more than three I wouldn't say that it's

than three I wouldn't say that it's probably not more than three but I but I

probably not more than three but I but I would but I would rather have reliable

would but I would rather have reliable secondhand accounts in the New Testament

secondhand accounts in the New Testament than the unreliable ones for the book of

than the unreliable ones for the book of Mor so you have

Mor so you have three maybe accounts but how many people

three maybe accounts but how many people left firsthand accounts of the gold

left firsthand accounts of the gold plates like how give me a number like

plates like how give me a number like left firsthand accounts yeah yeah how

left firsthand accounts yeah yeah how many people left firsthand accounts that

many people left firsthand accounts that they had seen the gold plates all I that

they had seen the gold plates all I that they oh that they had seen the plates

they oh that they had seen the plates yes I think I don't know there could be

yes I think I don't know there could be about a dozen people who said they saw

about a dozen people who said they saw something like this but that doesn't

something like this but that doesn't mean that it's a divinely inspired

mean that it's a divinely inspired artifa okay now when it comes to the

artifa okay now when it comes to the witnesses the three Witnesses and the

witnesses the three Witnesses and the eight Witnesses technically we only have

eight Witnesses technically we only have signatures to statements all of which

signatures to statements all of which were written by Oliver cower none of the

were written by Oliver cower none of the men actually signed it that's but here's

men actually signed it that's but here's the thing that's actually that was just

the thing that's actually that was just cowy they all testified later in their

cowy they all testified later in their life that they had seen the gold plates

life that they had seen the gold plates outside of what cowry wrote cryy was

outside of what cowry wrote cryy was just providing the printer's manuscript

just providing the printer's manuscript to actually publish it so that's just a

to actually publish it so that's just a bad argument the other thing but here

bad argument the other thing but here here's the thing though you have um why

here's the thing though you have um why here's a firsthand eyewitness statement

here's a firsthand eyewitness statement from David Whitmer shortly before his

from David Whitmer shortly before his death in 1887 he said quote I wish now

death in 1887 he said quote I wish now standing as it were in the very Sunset

standing as it were in the very Sunset of life and in the fear of God for once

of life and in the fear of God for once in all to make this public statement

in all to make this public statement that I have never in any time denied my

that I have never in any time denied my testimony or any part thereof uh which

testimony or any part thereof uh which has so long been published in the Book

has so long been published in the Book of Mormon I also testify to the world

of Mormon I also testify to the world that neither Oliver calry nor Martin

that neither Oliver calry nor Martin Harris at ever time denied their

Harris at ever time denied their testimony they both died reaffirming the

testimony they both died reaffirming the truth of the Divine authenticity of the

truth of the Divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon Oliver's last words to me

Book of Mormon Oliver's last words to me were quote Brother David be true to your

were quote Brother David be true to your testimony of the of the Book of Mormon

testimony of the of the Book of Mormon okay now do you have any extent

okay now do you have any extent firsthand signed statements like this

firsthand signed statements like this for the resurrection yes or no no we

for the resurrection yes or no no we don't have that okay why would David

don't have that okay why would David Whitmer make a statement like that after

Whitmer make a statement like that after leaving the church believing that Joseph

leaving the church believing that Joseph Smith was a false prophet he made that

Smith was a false prophet he made that statement because he had given a

statement because he had given a previous interview where he said as I

previous interview where he said as I quoted where he said that the angel he

quoted where he said that the angel he did not see the appearance or shape of

did not see the appearance or shape of the Angel he felt an impression and then

the Angel he felt an impression and then when that caused an outcry he clarified

when that caused an outcry he clarified that but what's interesting what's the

that but what's interesting what's the what's the source of that that quote

what's the source of that that quote that you just gave he was he was giving

that you just gave he was he was giving he was giving an interview uh with here

he was giving an interview uh with here I can I can bring it up here if you like

I can I can bring it up here if you like um see uh but I do know he also said in

um see uh but I do know he also said in his own word uh address in his own in

his own word uh address in his own in his own address to all Christians he

his own address to all Christians he said that God spoke to me again by his

said that God spoke to me again by his own voice and told me to separate myself

own voice and told me to separate myself from the Latter-Day Saints so so it's

from the Latter-Day Saints so so it's true that David Whitmer did have a

true that David Whitmer did have a falling out with Joseph Smith over the

falling out with Joseph Smith over the failure of uh a financial failure that

failure of uh a financial failure that happened and he felt that Joseph should

happened and he felt that Joseph should have known better but he never denied

have known better but he never denied his testimony it was an interview with

his testimony it was an interview with John Murphy dated in 1880 when Whitmer

John Murphy dated in 1880 when Whitmer said that and then later he clarified it

said that and then later he clarified it John did you that the statement I just

John did you that the statement I just read was in response to what Murphy had

read was in response to what Murphy had claimed that he had said he said that he

claimed that he had said he said that he David Whitmer actually came out and said

David Whitmer actually came out and said Murphy is lying I didn't say that no he

Murphy is lying I didn't say that no he said that he never Deni he said that he

said that he never Deni he said that he never no he said that he never denied

never no he said that he never denied his testimony but his testimony is that

his testimony but his testimony is that he felt an impression of the Angel not

he felt an impression of the Angel not that he beheld it he never denied that

that he beheld it he never denied that part he just said I never denied my

part he just said I never denied my testimonies Mormon testimonies the

testimonies Mormon testimonies the natural and spiritual eye I so David

natural and spiritual eye I so David Whitmer said this someone accused him of

Whitmer said this someone accused him of being hallucinated he said no sir I was

being hallucinated he said no sir I was not under any hallucination nor was I

not under any hallucination nor was I deceived I saw with these eyes I heard

deceived I saw with these eyes I heard with these ears I know of of which I

with these ears I know of of which I speak everything was as natural to us as

speak everything was as natural to us as it is at any time in other words the um

it is at any time in other words the um it's it's simply you're relying on

it's it's simply you're relying on sources I want everyone to know this

sources I want everyone to know this he's relying on sources that are enemies

he's relying on sources that are enemies of the church that wanted to try and

of the church that wanted to try and make it seem like they had contradicted

make it seem like they had contradicted their testimony now to go on do you

their testimony now to go on do you think it's plausible that Joseph Smith

think it's plausible that Joseph Smith did indeed have plates of some kind some

did indeed have plates of some kind some sort of a metal object yeah similar to

sort of a metal object yeah similar to how the Kinder hook plates existed so

how the Kinder hook plates existed so you think it's plausible can I can I

you think it's plausible can I can I finish similar to how the Kinder hook

finish similar to how the Kinder hook plates existed and those were a hoax or

plates existed and those were a hoax or James string had the VOR plates he could

James string had the VOR plates he could have had plates like that the okay so

have had plates like that the okay so first of all Joseph all of those things

first of all Joseph all of those things are hearsay accounts of what people said

are hearsay accounts of what people said that Joseph said okay you have no

that Joseph said okay you have no statement from Joseph Smith saying that

statement from Joseph Smith saying that he had confirmed that any of those

he had confirmed that any of those things were his own scribe who said that

things were his own scribe who said that he invest William Clay it was his own

he invest William Clay it was his own scribe who said that he saw that someone

scribe who said that he saw that someone said that he said these are secondhand

said that he said these are secondhand accounts now do now you said that you

accounts now do now you said that you think it's plausible that he did my

think it's plausible that he did my question is why is it more likely than

question is why is it more likely than not that's what plausible means why is

not that's what plausible means why is it more likely than not that Joseph has

it more likely than not that Joseph has those let me be clear those plates

those let me be clear those plates existed you were referencing whether

existed you were referencing whether Joseph Smith attempted to translate the

Joseph Smith attempted to translate the Kinder plates your original question was

Kinder plates your original question was do I think that there were plates there

do I think that there were plates there certainly could have been just like

certainly could have been just like there were the Kinder hook plates I'm

there were the Kinder hook plates I'm asking if it's plausible do you think

asking if it's plausible do you think it's plausible more likely than not that

it's plausible more likely than not that Joseph had metal plates of some kind I

Joseph had metal plates of some kind I think it's plausible he had some kind of

think it's plausible he had some kind of an object people often testified there

an object people often testified there was there people said they saw an object

was there people said they saw an object so the witnesses you think that there's

so the witnesses you think that there's you think that the Witnesses are

you think that the Witnesses are reliable to say that it is reliable that

reliable to say that it is reliable that he had something you just deny that what

he had something you just deny that what he had actually contained the plates no

he had actually contained the plates no I deny that what he I deny that what he

I deny that what he I deny that what he had were 550 Pages worth of information

had were 550 Pages worth of information transcribed onto 40 Golden Plates in a

transcribed onto 40 Golden Plates in a language called reformed Egyptian that

language called reformed Egyptian that never existed in the history of the

never existed in the history of the world so you don't you don't have the

world so you don't you don't have the there were never any statements of

there were never any statements of exactly how many plates that there were

exactly how many plates that there were and also if you're going to say that he

and also if you're going to say that he forged metal plates where's do you have

forged metal plates where's do you have any evidence that he forged metal plates

any evidence that he forged metal plates is there anything in the historical

is there anything in the historical record showing that he actually had the

record showing that he actually had the ability to do that the resources any of

ability to do that the resources any of it no but that's not my job to prove

it no but that's not my job to prove whether he did or didn't do that the

whether he did or didn't do that the fact is there are many different

fact is there are many different hypotheses and so if we have one

hypotheses and so if we have one hypothesis that God preserved D plates

hypothesis that God preserved D plates that actually have information that

that actually have information that couldn't have been contained on them in

couldn't have been contained on them in a language that didn't exist or there

a language that didn't exist or there were artifacts similar to other fake

were artifacts similar to other fake metal artifacts that did exist at the

metal artifacts that did exist at the time that seems more likely to me okay

time that seems more likely to me okay so why did Oliver cry say the following

so why did Oliver cry say the following on his deathbed it was no dream no vain

on his deathbed it was no dream no vain imagination of the mind it was

imagination of the mind it was real because the Mormon the early

real because the Mormon the early Mormons of that time and you could read

Mormons of that time and you could read Michael Quinn's book Mormonism and the

Michael Quinn's book Mormonism and the Magical worldview what they say is

Magical worldview what they say is whether something is real is something

whether something is real is something where the natural eye and the spiritual

where the natural eye and the spiritual eye come together so for example in the

eye come together so for example in the testimony of the three Witnesses it says

testimony of the three Witnesses it says that they saw the plates by the power of

that they saw the plates by the power of God which is weird because I can see let

God which is weird because I can see let me finish I can see these without the

me finish I can see these without the power of God that makes me seem like

power of God that makes me seem like it's something a bit more eight

it's something a bit more eight Witnesses say that they saw it by the

Witnesses say that they saw it by the power of God I'd have to go back to

power of God I'd have to go back to their their testimony of it okay John

their their testimony of it okay John Whitmer was one of the eight Witnesses

Whitmer was one of the eight Witnesses and before his death he was asked the

and before his death he was asked the following question about the rumor that

following question about the rumor that they had only seen it under a cloth or

they had only seen it under a cloth or or in a vision in newspaper article

or in a vision in newspaper article asked John Whitmer directly he said

asked John Whitmer directly he said quote uh he asked him did you see it

quote uh he asked him did you see it under the plates and John said quote no

under the plates and John said quote no Joseph handed them uncovered into our

Joseph handed them uncovered into our hands and we turned the leaves

hands and we turned the leaves sufficient to satisfy

sufficient to satisfy us why should we believe you over the

us why should we believe you over the actual Witnesses you're you wouldn't

actual Witnesses you're you wouldn't have to dis believe me there could be

have to dis believe me there could be plates like Kinder hook ofi that you

plates like Kinder hook ofi that you turn and you look at but they're not

turn and you look at but they're not actually ancient plates but you have no

actually ancient plates but you have no evidence of Joseph committing

evidence of Joseph committing metallurgical fraud no I don't need that

metallurgical fraud no I don't need that because there were other people

because there were other people committing metallurgical fraud and just

committing metallurgical fraud and just like you have no evidence that they

like you have no evidence that they contain a reformed Egyptian writing or

contain a reformed Egyptian writing or had any any of these documents on them

had any any of these documents on them it could have been someone else or he

it could have been someone else or he could have done that through someone

could have done that through someone else just be I don't have to provide a

else just be I don't have to provide a complete alternative account all I have

complete alternative account all I have to say is that this miraculous account

to say is that this miraculous account is severely lacking in evidence

is severely lacking in evidence contradicting they risk their lives to

contradicting they risk their lives to to keep those testimonies to say those

to keep those testimonies to say those things who Joseph Smith Witnesses well I

things who Joseph Smith Witnesses well I know that Joseph Smith was certainly

know that Joseph Smith was certainly risking his life because the Illinois

risking his life because the Illinois authorities were certainly what about

authorities were certainly what about the extermination order on Mormons in

the extermination order on Mormons in Missouri and uh can I finish please well

Missouri and uh can I finish please well Many religious here's the issue Many

Many religious here's the issue Many religious people risk their lives living

religious people risk their lives living out their faith so we're talking about

out their faith so we're talking about the original Witnesses here and whether

the original Witnesses here and whether someone risks their life shows evidence

someone risks their life shows evidence of their sincerity or at least their at

of their sincerity or at least their at least their commitment and I will say

least their commitment and I will say that Joseph Smith was certainly

that Joseph Smith was certainly committed to try to keep this going

committed to try to keep this going hopefully at least to maybe you know

hopefully at least to maybe you know tell his presidential election was over

tell his presidential election was over so that's time and so Trent you can

so that's time and so Trent you can begin with 15 minutes whenever you're

begin with 15 minutes whenever you're ready all right take your time okay let

ready all right take your time okay let me see

stopwatch okay so let's talk about a few areas that I brought up I want to talk

areas that I brought up I want to talk about Book of Mormon geography uh do

about Book of Mormon geography uh do Scholars secular and religious agree

Scholars secular and religious agree that the events in the gospels took

that the events in the gospels took place within the area We Now call Modern

place within the area We Now call Modern Day Israel and Palestine yes okay do

Day Israel and Palestine yes okay do Mormon Scholars agree on an area of

Mormon Scholars agree on an area of similar size being the location of where

similar size being the location of where the events of the Book of Mormon took

the events of the Book of Mormon took place in the new world uh yes I would

place in the new world uh yes I would say that most of the the reputable

say that most of the the reputable scholars in the latterday Saint

scholars in the latterday Saint Community uh lean towards it happening

Community uh lean towards it happening in the mesoamerica area so you believe a

in the mesoamerica area so you believe a Mormon scholar that defends the

Mormon scholar that defends the Heartland model and says it took place

Heartland model and says it took place around the Great Lakes is not a

around the Great Lakes is not a reputable scholar not in my opinion well

reputable scholar not in my opinion well I I don't find their arguments

I I don't find their arguments compelling are they reputable Scholars

compelling are they reputable Scholars depends on the scholar could there be

depends on the scholar could there be some possibly but there there's

some possibly but there there's reputable Scholars that believe kind of

reputable Scholars that believe kind of things that are really weird and out

things that are really weird and out there all righty uh while artifacts like

there all righty uh while artifacts like the name of Israel being found on the

the name of Israel being found on the mpta stelle have been discovered in the

mpta stelle have been discovered in the old world have any artifacts with Mormon

old world have any artifacts with Mormon names ever been discovered in the new

names ever been discovered in the new world in the new world in the new world

world in the new world in the new world the Americas um no but that's that's

the Americas um no but that's that's kind of a a bad example cuz first of all

kind of a a bad example cuz first of all in like when you're doing when you're

in like when you're doing when you're searching for things in Egypt like we

searching for things in Egypt like we know the exact location where all those

know the exact location where all those things happened and so it's easier to

things happened and so it's easier to find out also the archaeology do we not

find out also the archaeology do we not know the exact location where the Book

know the exact location where the Book of Mormon events took place we don't

of Mormon events took place we don't know the exact location I think that

know the exact location I think that there are very plausible models for meso

there are very plausible models for meso America but here's the issue so I would

America but here's the issue so I would quote um The non-mormon Scholar Edwin

quote um The non-mormon Scholar Edwin Barnhart who says that less than 1% of

Barnhart who says that less than 1% of mesoamerica has been professionally

mesoamerica has been professionally surveyed and studied especially in the

surveyed and studied especially in the jungle areas so it's like saying well

jungle areas so it's like saying well your son looked in the closet in your

your son looked in the closet in your house for your he didn't find them

house for your he didn't find them therefore they're not in the house would

therefore they're not in the house would you agree that the vast majority of the

you agree that the vast majority of the old world contains sites that haven't

old world contains sites that haven't been investigated yet for example we

been investigated yet for example we only found the Dead Sea Scrolls about 70

only found the Dead Sea Scrolls about 70 years ago so there's lots of areas of

years ago so there's lots of areas of the old world that haven't been explored

the old world that haven't been explored yet correct sure but you're talking

yet correct sure but you're talking about five you're talking about when

about five you're talking about when you're talking about Egypt it's the most

you're talking about Egypt it's the most archaeologically studied area on planet

archaeologically studied area on planet Earth I'm talking about other the Levant

Earth I'm talking about other the Levant region Saudi Arabia yeah those are those

region Saudi Arabia yeah those are those are and they also climate wise totally

are and they also climate wise totally different you're talking about a here's

different you're talking about a here's my next question has any artifact with

my next question has any artifact with Hebrew or Egyptian text been discovered

Hebrew or Egyptian text been discovered in the new world there have been some

in the new world there have been some that people claim have been I'm not

that people claim have been I'm not familiar enough with those if they're

familiar enough with those if they're authentic or not exactly but there have

authentic or not exactly but there have been claims that there have been and

been claims that there have been and also the language in the Book of Mormon

also the language in the Book of Mormon specifically it talks about the fact

specifically it talks about the fact that the language that they brought over

that the language that they brought over was corrupted and so the eventual

was corrupted and so the eventual language that was used by The Book of

language that was used by The Book of Mormon people was not like they weren't

Mormon people was not like they weren't speaking reformed Egyptian in in meso

speaking reformed Egyptian in in meso Amer okay they were speaking some other

Amer okay they were speaking some other kind of language yeah they probably

kind of language yeah they probably adopted the language of the peoples that

adopted the language of the peoples that were here peoples that were here let's

were here peoples that were here let's talk about that actually sure all right

talk about that actually sure all right was Joseph Smith wrong when he said our

was Joseph Smith wrong when he said our Western tribes of Indians are

Western tribes of Indians are descendants from that Joseph which was

descendants from that Joseph which was sold into Egypt even though 99.5% of

sold into Egypt even though 99.5% of Native American DNA comes from Asia not

Native American DNA comes from Asia not the Middle East yeah he may have been

the Middle East yeah he may have been mistaken in that statement uh because

mistaken in that statement uh because Joseph Smith didn't ever claim that he

Joseph Smith didn't ever claim that he knew exactly where the Book of Mormon

knew exactly where the Book of Mormon happened he himself which I think is

happened he himself which I think is evidence of of his authenticity was

evidence of of his authenticity was trying to figure out where did exactly

trying to figure out where did exactly did these things happen and Joseph had

did these things happen and Joseph had expressed both the possibility of

expressed both the possibility of happening in in the heartland of America

happening in in the heartland of America but he also expressed that it might have

but he also expressed that it might have happened in other places like Central am

happened in other places like Central am did Smith ever refer to Native Americans

did Smith ever refer to Native Americans or corpses or skeletons of Native

or corpses or skeletons of Native Americans as lonit yeah they they they

Americans as lonit yeah they they they had thought that it might be but none of

had thought that it might be but none of those were like revealed statements I

those were like revealed statements I don't claim infallibility of Joseph

don't claim infallibility of Joseph Smith and not only that if if you're

Smith and not only that if if you're going to hold that standard well an

going to hold that standard well an atheist could turn to a Christian and be

atheist could turn to a Christian and be like well do you agree with the

like well do you agree with the statement of so and so past Pope who

statement of so and so past Pope who said things that obviously were false

said things that obviously were false like I think that there's a there's a

like I think that there's a there's a difference there and not everything that

difference there and not everything that Joseph said was claimed to be some

Joseph said was claimed to be some prophetic infallible statement so you're

prophetic infallible statement so you're saying that would you agree that it was

saying that would you agree that it was a traditional view among Mormons that

a traditional view among Mormons that Native Americans in the new world that

Native Americans in the new world that they were the they were primarily the

they were the they were primarily the descendants of the lonit yeah but the

descendants of the lonit yeah but the the Book of Mormon text itself it's

the Book of Mormon text itself it's interesting so in Jacob uh

interesting so in Jacob uh 1:14 it says but I Jacob shall not hear

1:14 it says but I Jacob shall not hear Hereafter distinguish between these

Hereafter distinguish between these names meaning the names of different

names meaning the names of different groups that that he encountered but I

groups that that he encountered but I shall call them

shall call them lamanites those who seek to destroy the

lamanites those who seek to destroy the people of Nephi and those who are

people of Nephi and those who are friendly to Nephi I will call Nephites

friendly to Nephi I will call Nephites so what he was doing was setting up a

so what he was doing was setting up a very common thing in the ancient world

very common thing in the ancient world was to call everyone of one group like

was to call everyone of one group like the Greeks they said we're the Greeks

the Greeks they said we're the Greeks everyone else is barbarians the Jews

everyone else is barbarians the Jews said well we are Jews everyone is

said well we are Jews everyone is Gentiles does the Book of Mormon so does

Gentiles does the Book of Mormon so does it refer to other groups specific groups

it refer to other groups specific groups who inhabited Americas before the

who inhabited Americas before the arrival of Jared Lehi and mik while it

arrival of Jared Lehi and mik while it does not that's not surprising in

does not that's not surprising in ethnocentric ancient histories which

ethnocentric ancient histories which often would simply lump everyone just as

often would simply lump everyone just as Jacob did into an entire other group

Jacob did into an entire other group like Jews calling everyone else Gentiles

like Jews calling everyone else Gentiles and Jacob calling everyone either

and Jacob calling everyone either nephite or The Outsiders the Lites also

nephite or The Outsiders the Lites also Iran you have Iran and is it

Iran you have Iran and is it understandable someone reading the book

understandable someone reading the book of Mormon would reach the conclusion

of Mormon would reach the conclusion that the population of the Americas were

that the population of the Americas were only descendants of people that had come

only descendants of people that had come from the old world through Jared L then

from the old world through Jared L then Lehi and MCH a a careful study of and it

Lehi and MCH a a careful study of and it wasn't MCH I think I said MCH sorry muck

wasn't MCH I think I said MCH sorry muck it's hard it's very easy to come up with

it's hard it's very easy to come up with new names from the older words all right

new names from the older words all right well um so someone who reads it

well um so someone who reads it carefully that you do not have to draw

carefully that you do not have to draw that conclusion from the text at all so

that conclusion from the text at all so it sounds like what you're saying though

it sounds like what you're saying though is that there is no specific

is that there is no specific archaeological evidence of distinctly

archaeological evidence of distinctly Mormon names in the new

Mormon names in the new world we don't know almost any of the

world we don't know almost any of the names in we don't know the names that

names in we don't know the names that these cities that they're discovering if

these cities that they're discovering if you're familiar with the lar studies

you're familiar with the lar studies they're doing they literally earlier

they're doing they literally earlier this year found an entire 650 mile area

this year found an entire 650 mile area that was under the jungle that the

that was under the jungle that the jungle has consumed we don't know what

jungle has consumed we don't know what those cities were named okay but we have

those cities were named okay but we have found the names of some settlements like

found the names of some settlements like we found kokia and we know that that's

we found kokia and we know that that's the name of that settlement that was the

the name of that settlement that was the name of the that settlement anciently

name of the that settlement anciently okay in in 2000 or in or in 500 BC okay

okay in in 2000 or in or in 500 BC okay so using a skeptical argument there no

so using a skeptical argument there no I'm using the same argument that the the

I'm using the same argument that the the absence of evidence is not necessarily

absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence which is the exact

evidence of absence which is the exact same argument that Jimmy Aken and you

same argument that Jimmy Aken and you guys make about the book of Exodus you

guys make about the book of Exodus you seem very confident about that one old

seem very confident about that one old world site that we do know that's what

world site that we do know that's what they called it back then that it because

they called it back then that it because we have records that we we found the

we have records that we we found the actual um the temple altars that had the

actual um the temple altars that had the name on it that date to that period

name on it that date to that period let's go ahead talk about the Golden

let's go ahead talk about the Golden Plates all right uh so however many

Plates all right uh so however many plates there were here you say let's say

plates there were here you say let's say maybe there's like what 60 M 80 mhm

maybe there's like what 60 M 80 mhm there's certainly more 500 here mhm all

there's certainly more 500 here mhm all right I well I I would say we don't know

right I well I I would say we don't know what the thickness of the plates were

what the thickness of the plates were exactly from the descriptions that the

exactly from the descriptions that the eyewitnesses left it was like tin they

eyewitnesses left it was like tin they said it was it was like it was like

said it was it was like it was like thick paper is what they described it as

thick paper is what they described it as okay so they were very thin plates first

okay so they were very thin plates first of all second of all those Witnesses

of all second of all those Witnesses it's funny now you're believing what

it's funny now you're believing what they were saying yeah I want to it seems

they were saying yeah I want to it seems implausible to me so so you're agreeing

implausible to me so so you're agreeing they had plates okay so are you familiar

they had plates okay so are you familiar with I reference the plates the metal

with I reference the plates the metal plates of Darius yeah okay and how many

plates of Darius yeah okay and how many how many English words are contained on

how many English words are contained on one of the metal plates of Darius I I'm

one of the metal plates of Darius I I'm not familiar with the details of how

not familiar with the details of how many there are are you familiar that the

many there are are you familiar that the pl each plate contains about 200 English

pl each plate contains about 200 English words on it uh I I don't know I I fine

words on it uh I I don't know I I fine I'm not going to disagree with that okay

I'm not going to disagree with that okay so if that were the case

so if that were the case uh in order let's say there were you

uh in order let's say there were you know 60 80 plates here uh you'd have to

know 60 80 plates here uh you'd have to have thousands of words on each of these

have thousands of words on each of these plates so each of these characters would

plates so each of these characters would have to represent what 50 or 80 words in

have to represent what 50 or 80 words in order to fit on these plates correct um

order to fit on these plates correct um I don't know

I don't know exactly I can't make that prediction

exactly I can't make that prediction because I don't know anything about this

because I don't know anything about this language that that it's coming from I

language that that it's coming from I also don't know if it's a dynamic

also don't know if it's a dynamic translation which you talk about which

translation which you talk about which is where you take a that might be

is where you take a that might be smaller and then you expound upon when

smaller and then you expound upon when Joseph looked in the Hat mhm uh cow said

Joseph looked in the Hat mhm uh cow said that he saw words that appeared and he

that he saw words that appeared and he read them off and the new words were

read them off and the new words were appear I guess what did Smith see in the

appear I guess what did Smith see in the Hat when he was TR now you he wasn't

Hat when he was TR now you he wasn't looking at the plates

looking at the plates right uh he was he was looking in the

right uh he was he was looking in the Hat yeah and what did he see in the Hat

Hat yeah and what did he see in the Hat well according to according to the the

well according to according to the the witnesses of of the translation process

witnesses of of the translation process okay so what did he see in the Hat we

okay so what did he see in the Hat we don't know okay we had people who said

don't know okay we had people who said that they think that they might have

that they think that they might have known and they gave accounts of what

known and they gave accounts of what they thought was going on but exactly

they thought was going on but exactly what was going on in that we don't know

what was going on in that we don't know okay so if there if there's 50 pages

okay so if there if there's 50 pages here or you know whatever that might be

here or you know whatever that might be and you're going to have 270,000 English

and you're going to have 270,000 English words just fit on this in characters

words just fit on this in characters each of these characters would have to

each of these characters would have to contain 50 or 80 words like several

contain 50 or 80 words like several paragraphs of meaning for each character

paragraphs of meaning for each character if it's translated is there any

if it's translated is there any hieroglyphic text that is like that that

hieroglyphic text that is like that that we know of where the hieroglyph

we know of where the hieroglyph represents let's say 50 words of

represents let's say 50 words of information know what the original

information know what the original language was or how it worked or if it

language was or how it worked or if it was an expansion given through

was an expansion given through Revelation from God to expand ideas that

Revelation from God to expand ideas that were already in

were already in there may have had nothing to do with

there may have had nothing to do with this not saying had nothing to do with

this not saying had nothing to do with it absolutely not what I'm saying is is

it absolutely not what I'm saying is is that for instance I would reference you

that for instance I would reference you to the scholar Blake Osler and his

to the scholar Blake Osler and his expansion Theory the idea that some of

expansion Theory the idea that some of these texts could have been expanded to

these texts could have been expanded to give the account while the while the

give the account while the while the basic story outline is there in some way

basic story outline is there in some way it could be expanded so I don't have

it could be expanded so I don't have problem with that and that's a dynamic

problem with that and that's a dynamic translation that you talk about in your

translation that you talk about in your videos but when I make a dynamic

videos but when I make a dynamic translation of scripture I'm not adding

translation of scripture I'm not adding 40 words or 50 words to one Greek word

40 words or 50 words to one Greek word in the New Testament that's where you

in the New Testament that's where you get things that are not even translation

get things that are not even translation at all they're just dictations all right

at all they're just dictations all right let's well the text the text was

let's well the text the text was reformed Egyptian correct whatever that

reformed Egyptian correct whatever that that's what they called it Joseph was

that's what they called it Joseph was not an expert in languages and so he

not an expert in languages and so he didn't oh that's true he didn't he

didn't oh that's true he didn't he didn't know that which is great which is

didn't know that which is great which is wild cuz someone who wasn't an expert in

wild cuz someone who wasn't an expert in languages was able to come up with a

languages was able to come up with a authentic names so has any copy of the

authentic names so has any copy of the text on the alleged Golden Plates have

text on the alleged Golden Plates have any copies of the characters survive to

any copies of the characters survive to this day so that we can examine so there

this day so that we can examine so there is a disputed one that Scholars dispute

is a disputed one that Scholars dispute called the characters document which is

called the characters document which is something that again it is a it's a

something that again it is a it's a schar the character's document based on

schar the character's document based on writing on the Golden Plates that was

writing on the Golden Plates that was shown to a classicist named Charles

shown to a classicist named Charles anthon we don't know if that document is

anthon we don't know if that document is a document that was used okay but do

a document that was used okay but do people say that it's based on anthon did

people say that it's based on anthon did Martin Harris present copies of the

Martin Harris present copies of the characters to anthon yes so let me no

characters to anthon yes so let me no you you had a lot of fun interrupting

you you had a lot of fun interrupting I'm gonna do mine now okay did anthon

I'm gonna do mine now okay did anthon saying after he met Harris describe from

saying after he met Harris describe from anthon did he firsthand account call the

anthon did he firsthand account call the letters mere trash so here is what

letters mere trash so here is what anthon did Martin Harris was very

anthon did Martin Harris was very skeptical of Joseph Smith so he took the

skeptical of Joseph Smith so he took the characters to anthon and then when he

characters to anthon and then when he came back from anthon Martin Harris was

came back from anthon Martin Harris was more convinced than ever no I'm asking

more convinced than ever no I'm asking you what what did anthon say what did

you what what did anthon say what did later in life in the late 1830s

later in life in the late 1830s Mormonism starts to kick off and people

Mormonism starts to kick off and people go anthon Martin saying that you

go anthon Martin saying that you verified this and he goes no I didn't no

verified this and he goes no I didn't no I I said it was trash because at that

I I said it was trash because at that time Mormonism was already going but if

time Mormonism was already going but if you actually go back you have to wonder

you actually go back you have to wonder why would Martin Harris take this to a

why would Martin Harris take this to a scholar why would Joseph take it to a

scholar why would Joseph take it to a scholar so you're saying anthon's just

scholar so you're saying anthon's just lying about what happened yeah okay is

lying about what happened yeah okay is it possible that Harris lied because he

it possible that Harris lied because he was financially stressed about

was financially stressed about mortgaging his own farm and that if the

mortgaging his own farm and that if the Book of Mormon failed he would be in

Book of Mormon failed he would be in financial ruin he is it is it possible

financial ruin he is it is it possible no no no it's not possible here's what

no no no it's not possible here's what I'm saying Trent he went to a scholar

I'm saying Trent he went to a scholar before he mortgaged the farm it's after

before he mortgaged the farm it's after the scholar said what he said to him

the scholar said what he said to him that he went and mortgaged the farm that

that he went and mortgaged the farm that he was worried he was going to be duped

he was worried he was going to be duped you you are misreading Martin Harris if

you you are misreading Martin Harris if you think that he was some dupe he was

you think that he was some dupe he was trying he did multiple things to test

trying he did multiple things to test Joseph including putting a different

Joseph including putting a different Stone in his hat cuz they said he was

Stone in his hat cuz they said he was translating from a stone and and and

translating from a stone and and and Joseph looked and said I can't translate

Joseph looked and said I can't translate this is it possible that Smith realized

this is it possible that Smith realized it was a different

it was a different Stone it's possible possible possibility

Stone it's possible possible possibility is such a a ridiculous standard it's

is such a a ridiculous standard it's possible there are unicorns there are

possible there are unicorns there are unicorns on Mars somewhere it's possible

unicorns on Mars somewhere it's possible is it Poss I'm familiar with this trick

is it Poss I'm familiar with this trick that Harris thinks he's clever he

that Harris thinks he's clever he switches the sear Stone and then and

switches the sear Stone and then and then Smith says oh I can't translate

then Smith says oh I can't translate anymore is it possible Smith saw the

anymore is it possible Smith saw the stone was different and recognized he

stone was different and recognized he was being tested is it possible it's

was being tested is it possible it's possible what it shows it shows a

possible what it shows it shows a skepticism in Martin Harris he was not a

skepticism in Martin Harris he was not a dupe he was very skeptical and it was

dupe he was very skeptical and it was after a bunch of things happen he or is

after a bunch of things happen he or is it possible Harris was trying to please

it possible Harris was trying to please his wife and other family members who

his wife and other family members who were the skeptical ones giving him

were the skeptical ones giving him pressure is that possible it's possible

pressure is that possible it's possible but regardless he went to anthon and

but regardless he went to anthon and came back more convinced than ever okay

came back more convinced than ever okay uh let's let's see here

uh let's let's see here um uh Martin Harris gave an 1859

um uh Martin Harris gave an 1859 interview uh in Tiffany's magazine and

interview uh in Tiffany's magazine and he recounted when Joseph Smith and his

he recounted when Joseph Smith and his company went money digging once and he

company went money digging once and he said that one of the men told him that

said that one of the men told him that there was when they went money digging

there was when they went money digging all kinds of strange things would happen

all kinds of strange things would happen that like a large man who appeared to be

that like a large man who appeared to be eight or n9t tall came and sat on the

eight or n9t tall came and sat on the ridge of a barn and told them to leave

ridge of a barn and told them to leave who who are you talking about who who

who who are you talking about who who gave this quote Harris gave that he gave

gave this quote Harris gave that he gave that in an interview related to what one

that in an interview related to what one of the men who was with Smith when they

of the men who was with Smith when they were when they were money was Smith

were when they were money was Smith involved in money digging treasure

involved in money digging treasure hunting it was a so Joseph was from an

hunting it was a so Joseph was from an Indigent poor family and they were

Indigent poor family and they were offered basically like work to help

offered basically like work to help someone named I think it was Josiah

someone named I think it was Josiah stole to go and look for a treasure that

stole to go and look for a treasure that he had heard about and so Joseph Smith

he had heard about and so Joseph Smith was involved in that Venture Joseph was

was involved in that Venture Joseph was a teenager at the time I mean I've done

a teenager at the time I mean I've done some done things as a teenager I think

some done things as a teenager I think you guys have too and he later said that

you guys have too and he later said that he kind of regretted it and he felt dumb

he kind of regretted it and he felt dumb about it okay and and I'm saying the

about it okay and and I'm saying the 1859 interview in Tiffany that Martin

1859 interview in Tiffany that Martin Harris gave he said the men encountered

Harris gave he said the men encountered a 9- foot tall being that told them to

a 9- foot tall being that told them to leave when they were out treasure

leave when they were out treasure hunting do you think that happened I'm

hunting do you think that happened I'm not familiar with that Source I would

not familiar with that Source I would recommend you look into it it makes me

recommend you look into it it makes me feel like Martin Harris is a a bit Gul

feel like Martin Harris is a a bit Gul it's a good thing though that we're not

it's a good thing though that we're not just relying on Martin Harris we have

just relying on Martin Harris we have plenty of other witnesses as well okay

plenty of other witnesses as well okay uh but uh were all of the Witnesses were

uh but uh were all of the Witnesses were excommunicated and one of them cowry

excommunicated and one of them cowry returned to the church uh no Martin

returned to the church uh no Martin Harris also did and also um did Martin

Harris also did and also um did Martin Harris join how many he went and

Harris join how many he went and followed the bites out to Utah died in

followed the bites out to Utah died in Utah how many religions did Martin

Utah how many religions did Martin Harris belong to in his life quite a few

Harris belong to in his life quite a few but he never denied his testimony of the

but he never denied his testimony of the Book of Mormon the reality is is that

Book of Mormon the reality is is that these guys had falling out with Joseph

these guys had falling out with Joseph Smith which is all the more reason to

Smith which is all the more reason to believe them because they had every

believe them because they had every incentive to Whitmer said God spoke to

incentive to Whitmer said God spoke to me by his own voice from the heavens and

me by his own voice from the heavens and told me to separate myself from among

told me to separate myself from among the Latter-Day Saints do you think God

the Latter-Day Saints do you think God told David Whitmer that do you want to

told David Whitmer that do you want to answer that and then we'll go yeah

answer that and then we'll go yeah absolutely um so David Whitmer was at

absolutely um so David Whitmer was at that time very very upset with Joseph he

that time very very upset with Joseph he was and he had believed that Joseph was

was and he had believed that Joseph was a fallen prophet and so he was angry and

a fallen prophet and so he was angry and he made that statement but lat but he

he made that statement but lat but he never denied his testimony book of so

never denied his testimony book of so you don't believe God God didn't tell

you don't believe God God didn't tell Whitmer to leave no okay so you don't

Whitmer to leave no okay so you don't believe Whitmer when he said that you

believe Whitmer when he said that you believe Whitmer on other things yeah is

believe Whitmer on other things yeah is that time that is time yeah right all

that time that is time yeah right all right thanks guys that was really great

right thanks guys that was really great very vigorous awesome okay we're going

very vigorous awesome okay we're going to move into a time of Q&A from the

to move into a time of Q&A from the audience it's going to be 30 minutes

audience it's going to be 30 minutes overall the way I'd like to try to do

overall the way I'd like to try to do this is to direct a question to each of

this is to direct a question to each of you respectively the the person who's

you respectively the the person who's directed the question will have about

directed the question will have about two two minutes to respond and then the

two two minutes to respond and then the other person will only have one minute

other person will only have one minute to respond to his response this is

to respond to his response this is really tough to do because I know that

really tough to do because I know that there's a lot you want to say I mean if

there's a lot you want to say I mean if it does divulge into the uh the two of

it does divulge into the uh the two of you going back and forth um devolve I

you going back and forth um devolve I should say then uh then then maybe we

should say then uh then then maybe we want to not not do Q&A and just do a

want to not not do Q&A and just do a conversation that that's up to you so

conversation that that's up to you so I'm going to click Start and we're going

I'm going to click Start and we're going to go back and for forth from local

to go back and for forth from local supporters to uh to YouTube questions uh

supporters to uh to YouTube questions uh Connor Michael Brewster says and this is

Connor Michael Brewster says and this is directed to you Jacob if Mormons still

directed to you Jacob if Mormons still have divine revelation how do they

have divine revelation how do they justify the repeated back and forth on

justify the repeated back and forth on blacks in the

blacks in the clergy um well first of all I'm not sure

clergy um well first of all I'm not sure what that question has to do with the

what that question has to do with the Book of Mormon um it's more of a general

Book of Mormon um it's more of a general question about Mormons we read it one

question about Mormons we read it one more time just I want to

more time just I want to sure um let me I I'll restart the time

sure um let me I I'll restart the time here let's a oh stop it so you have

here let's a oh stop it so you have plenty of time to respond if Mormons

plenty of time to respond if Mormons still have divine revelation how do they

still have divine revelation how do they justify the repeated back and forth on

justify the repeated back and forth on blacks in the clergy well the blacks in

blacks in the clergy well the blacks in the priesthood issue was only uh it

the priesthood issue was only uh it never was given by divine revelation

never was given by divine revelation ever as any sort of official canonized

ever as any sort of official canonized thing uh so I I think he's just

thing uh so I I think he's just misunderstanding what exactly that was

misunderstanding what exactly that was um ultimately you know it's it's

um ultimately you know it's it's something that I personally and there's

something that I personally and there's different opinions about why this all

different opinions about why this all happened in that my personal take on it

happened in that my personal take on it is that it was a mistake it was an error

is that it was a mistake it was an error in policy uh because we believe our

in policy uh because we believe our leaders are fallible I think Catholics

leaders are fallible I think Catholics probably believe that as well that that

probably believe that as well that that things can be mistaken um you know if

things can be mistaken um you know if the franciscans could own slaves in uh

the franciscans could own slaves in uh Brazil then we'll uh I think the

Brazil then we'll uh I think the Catholics can maybe pardon if a mistake

Catholics can maybe pardon if a mistake was ever made uh with with us well I'm

was ever made uh with with us well I'm I'm glad that uh Jacob says that but I

I'm glad that uh Jacob says that but I believe there are deeper issues about

believe there are deeper issues about the that it wasn't an arbitrary decision

the that it wasn't an arbitrary decision of prohibiting blacks from entering the

of prohibiting blacks from entering the priesthood it comes from very concerning

priesthood it comes from very concerning issues i' recommend people to look into

issues i' recommend people to look into about the nature of the Nephites and the

about the nature of the Nephites and the Lites and the Book of Mormon and the

Lites and the Book of Mormon and the traditional view that Mormons held that

traditional view that Mormons held that the Native Americans were were

the Native Americans were were descendants of the lonit the cursing of

descendants of the lonit the cursing of dark skin it's something I would just

dark skin it's something I would just encourage you to look into all right

encourage you to look into all right okay we have a question here for Trent

okay we have a question here for Trent from Marty staik what makes the Catholic

from Marty staik what makes the Catholic faith less outlandish than the LDS

faith less outlandish than the LDS especially when it comes to things like

especially when it comes to things like Maran apparitions or all the

Maran apparitions or all the supernatural things with Padre Pio we

supernatural things with Padre Pio we know where it happened uh we have direct

know where it happened uh we have direct archaeological evidence like we have for

archaeological evidence like we have for example the the pilot stone that has

example the the pilot stone that has pontious Pilot's name name on it we have

pontious Pilot's name name on it we have ancient manuscripts going back thousands

ancient manuscripts going back thousands of years to attest to these events we're

of years to attest to these events we're not proposing things happened in Israel

not proposing things happened in Israel that couldn't possibly have happened or

that couldn't possibly have happened or the existence of civilizations for which

the existence of civilizations for which there's no evidence for so Catholicism

there's no evidence for so Catholicism is quite different in that we are

is quite different in that we are actually we are not proposing nearly as

actually we are not proposing nearly as much as Mormonism does and doesn't have

much as Mormonism does and doesn't have evidence to support it we have far more

evidence to support it we have far more ancient uh groundings for the belief

ancient uh groundings for the belief we're not just taking somebody's word in

we're not just taking somebody's word in 1830 talking about something that

1830 talking about something that happened thousands of years later we

happened thousands of years later we have manuscripts going back to the 2

have manuscripts going back to the 2 century and we have churches that were

century and we have churches that were founded from the beginning of the time

founded from the beginning of the time of the Apostles attesting to the basic

of the Apostles attesting to the basic beliefs and of the resurrection of Jesus

beliefs and of the resurrection of Jesus Christ and we have the initial event w

Christ and we have the initial event w witnessing Christ's Resurrection is not

witnessing Christ's Resurrection is not a mere Visionary experience we have

a mere Visionary experience we have tactile encounters people who were not

tactile encounters people who were not expecting it because you didn't expect a

expecting it because you didn't expect a deci a messiah to die and rise again and

deci a messiah to die and rise again and of course we have an empty tomb where if

of course we have an empty tomb where if you really thought your Rabbi had come

you really thought your Rabbi had come back from the dead you can go and check

back from the dead you can go and check out and see no this is an actual bodily

out and see no this is an actual bodily Resurrection we have an abundance of

Resurrection we have an abundance of more evidence for Christianity and far

more evidence for Christianity and far fewer really no problems compared to

fewer really no problems compared to what Mormonism faces so I I believe the

what Mormonism faces so I I believe the two are vastly different so it's funny

two are vastly different so it's funny because the eyewitnesses that he's

because the eyewitnesses that he's talking about he doesn't have actual

talking about he doesn't have actual eyewitness accounts he has later

eyewitness accounts he has later documents that are found that were

documents that are found that were written

written anonymously decades and decades after

anonymously decades and decades after the event uh and the nearest manuscripts

the event uh and the nearest manuscripts of those are like a hundred years old um

of those are like a hundred years old um and that's just for the New Testament

and that's just for the New Testament stuff when it comes to the witnesses we

stuff when it comes to the witnesses we have more witnesses we have better

have more witnesses we have better witnesses as far as the numbers um and

witnesses as far as the numbers um and then in addition to that he he says like

then in addition to that he he says like oh well there isn't any archaeological

oh well there isn't any archaeological evidence well Trent believes in the

evidence well Trent believes in the divine inspiration of the book of Exodus

divine inspiration of the book of Exodus the fact that we know where it happened

the fact that we know where it happened and we don't find armies at the bottom

and we don't find armies at the bottom of the Red

of the Red Sea okay um question for Jacob uh do you

Sea okay um question for Jacob uh do you think the early church fathers and

think the early church fathers and apostles got Jesus's teachings wrong if

apostles got Jesus's teachings wrong if so

so why um I think he's referring to the

why um I think he's referring to the great apostasy so yeah again I'm not

great apostasy so yeah again I'm not sure what this has to do with the Book

sure what this has to do with the Book of Mormon it has more to do with the the

of Mormon it has more to do with the the subject of the great apostasy um but as

subject of the great apostasy um but as far as uh the early church fathers I

far as uh the early church fathers I believe that they had a whole bunch of

believe that they had a whole bunch of things right um the great apostasy

things right um the great apostasy there's a big misnomer that people have

there's a big misnomer that people have about it we don't believe that all truth

about it we don't believe that all truth was suddenly like sucked from the earth

was suddenly like sucked from the earth and the Holy Spirit was not operative or

and the Holy Spirit was not operative or anything like that we believe that the

anything like that we believe that the the apostasy when you actually Define

the apostasy when you actually Define what we mean by it it means that the

what we mean by it it means that the authority held by the original Apostles

authority held by the original Apostles the the 12 they had the authority to

the the 12 they had the authority to give new public Revelation right that is

give new public Revelation right that is something that Catholics and US agree on

something that Catholics and US agree on Catholics also agree that that Authority

Catholics also agree that that Authority did not continue after that that the the

did not continue after that that the the the public revelation had ceased with

the public revelation had ceased with those Apostles what we believe is that

those Apostles what we believe is that that was what the apostasy is it's the

that was what the apostasy is it's the loss of this connection for God's direct

loss of this connection for God's direct Revelation to man through those who hold

Revelation to man through those who hold Apostolic keys in order to give that

Apostolic keys in order to give that Authority so I believe that a lot of the

Authority so I believe that a lot of the the teachings that they went on with

the teachings that they went on with were were good and right and true I also

were were good and right and true I also believe some were corrupted there was

believe some were corrupted there was great controversy in the church but the

great controversy in the church but the apostasy as it stands is a commentary on

apostasy as it stands is a commentary on the authority of the Apostles ceasing

the authority of the Apostles ceasing and I have to admit the Catholics would

and I have to admit the Catholics would have to

have to admit that at least in the area of the

admit that at least in the area of the authority to give public Revelation new

authority to give public Revelation new public Revelation that that did indeed

public Revelation that that did indeed cease and I think there's a point of

cease and I think there's a point of agreement there yeah there's an

agreement there yeah there's an agreement that public Revelation ended

agreement that public Revelation ended in the apostolic age but Mormons believe

in the apostolic age but Mormons believe it's far more than that not just that

it's far more than that not just that the authority to give public Revelation

the authority to give public Revelation ended but the authority to bind

ended but the authority to bind Believers and to teach them that that

Believers and to teach them that that ceased and not just that but that the

ceased and not just that but that the Church of Jesus Christ the church Christ

Church of Jesus Christ the church Christ established no longer exists after the

established no longer exists after the time of the Apostles and was replaced

time of the Apostles and was replaced with a great and abominable church and

with a great and abominable church and that this this church Christ established

that this this church Christ established that the council that the I'm sure Jacob

that the council that the I'm sure Jacob would say the Council of NAA did not

would say the Council of NAA did not have authority to bind Christians to

have authority to bind Christians to trinitarian Doctrine but we believe that

trinitarian Doctrine but we believe that because we believe the Church of Jesus

because we believe the Church of Jesus Christ never left the face of the Earth

Christ never left the face of the Earth that the successors of the Apostles they

that the successors of the Apostles they could not give new revelation but they

could not give new revelation but they were capable of binding Believers to a

were capable of binding Believers to a greater understanding of the original

greater understanding of the original Revelation that was be given and the

Revelation that was be given and the argument gave was still not answer that

argument gave was still not answer that if Catholicism is true if you do believe

if Catholicism is true if you do believe that then naturally Mormonism would be

that then naturally Mormonism would be false

false okay bit of a straw man

okay bit of a straw man there uh question for you Trent from TA

there uh question for you Trent from TA from YouTube he says I would love to

from YouTube he says I would love to hear what horn believes are the criteria

hear what horn believes are the criteria necessary to prove a thing is divinely

necessary to prove a thing is divinely inspired sure I think I would go back so

inspired sure I think I would go back so why do I believe this was important in

why do I believe this was important in my journey actually as a Christian that

my journey actually as a Christian that I I came believe that God existed and

I I came believe that God existed and from historical evidence that Christ

from historical evidence that Christ rose from the dead and I did that

rose from the dead and I did that without believing the Bible is divinely

without believing the Bible is divinely inspired I just believe that these are

inspired I just believe that these are ancient documents uh that come and it's

ancient documents uh that come and it's not just from secondhand or non-

not just from secondhand or non- eyewitnesses or Anonymous sources we

eyewitnesses or Anonymous sources we know Paul wrote his letters we know Paul

know Paul wrote his letters we know Paul knew the apostles and Paul testifies to

knew the apostles and Paul testifies to Jesus's post-resurrection appearances we

Jesus's post-resurrection appearances we know Luke was a companion of Paul and

know Luke was a companion of Paul and Luke describes the post-resurrection

Luke describes the post-resurrection appearances no reason to make up a Luke

appearances no reason to make up a Luke if you're going make up somebody why

if you're going make up somebody why some Anonymous guy like Luke so

some Anonymous guy like Luke so historically I can demonstrate that that

historically I can demonstrate that that a miracle occurred and began the

a miracle occurred and began the Christian faith and the Christian church

Christian faith and the Christian church so from there though the reason I

so from there though the reason I believe that the Bible that the 73 books

believe that the Bible that the 73 books of the Bible are divinely inspired is

of the Bible are divinely inspired is because the church Jesus Christ

because the church Jesus Christ established authoritatively taught that

established authoritatively taught that first at local Regional councils and

first at local Regional councils and then at an ecumenical council in the

then at an ecumenical council in the 16th century and as I noted earlier in

16th century and as I noted earlier in the debate this Canon problem also

the debate this Canon problem also exists for Mormons as well because they

exists for Mormons as well because they would say the 1611 King James Bible is

would say the 1611 King James Bible is inspired as far as it's correctly

inspired as far as it's correctly translated uh but why would one believe

translated uh but why would one believe that when it was believed when Joseph

that when it was believed when Joseph Smith believed that before he ever

Smith believed that before he ever received a revelation from an angel well

received a revelation from an angel well the Bible came from the church that

the Bible came from the church that Christ established and that's why I

Christ established and that's why I believe it's divinely inspired and the

believe it's divinely inspired and the church says the Book of Mormon is

church says the Book of Mormon is not okay so it is funny Trent did just

not okay so it is funny Trent did just admit the at the base of his worldview

admit the at the base of his worldview when you dig down why do you believe in

when you dig down why do you believe in all of this stuff the book of Exodus to

all of this stuff the book of Exodus to be inspired despite its lack of

be inspired despite its lack of archaeological EV he says because of

archaeological EV he says because of witnesses to the resurrection and I said

witnesses to the resurrection and I said what Witnesses um well we got maybe

what Witnesses um well we got maybe three and it's from late accounts and

three and it's from late accounts and they're Anonymous and one of them was

they're Anonymous and one of them was just a Visionary account with Paul and

just a Visionary account with Paul and um okay I got three and we don't even

um okay I got three and we don't even have like the actual things but on the

have like the actual things but on the other hand I'm presenting

other hand I'm presenting 19 eyewitness accounts with hundreds of

19 eyewitness accounts with hundreds of accounts and then all he can do to rebut

accounts and then all he can do to rebut that is to bring up sort of obvious sort

that is to bring up sort of obvious sort of anti- people that are against them

of anti- people that are against them who are who are trying to to to catch

who are who are trying to to to catch them in their words but he hasn't looked

them in their words but he hasn't looked at the en you could just go read Richard

at the en you could just go read Richard Anderson's book on the on the eye

Anderson's book on the on the eye witnesses of the Book of Mormon their

witnesses of the Book of Mormon their testimonies are solid and they never

testimonies are solid and they never denied them they were sincere and those

denied them they were sincere and those are the same criteria that he uses to

are the same criteria that he uses to believe the apostles so it's a clear and

believe the apostles so it's a clear and obvious double standard Connor Michael

obvious double standard Connor Michael Brewster asks you Jacob if the church

Brewster asks you Jacob if the church was corrupted and it took until Joseph

was corrupted and it took until Joseph Smith to restore it why is the King

Smith to restore it why is the King James version of the the Bible to be

James version of the the Bible to be trusted from 1601 which is well before

trusted from 1601 which is well before Smith again this is based on a

Smith again this is based on a misconception um we do believe that I'm

misconception um we do believe that I'm a big fan of the Catholic Church like I

a big fan of the Catholic Church like I I I went to Catholic schools I'm sending

I I went to Catholic schools I'm sending my kids to Catholic schools I believe

my kids to Catholic schools I believe that the Christian Movement and

that the Christian Movement and denominations and all of that that they

denominations and all of that that they did continue to preach the truth to

did continue to preach the truth to share on the words of the people who

share on the words of the people who held uh Apostolic and prophetic

held uh Apostolic and prophetic Authority in the past and so of course

Authority in the past and so of course we're going to we're going to adopt that

we're going to we're going to adopt that and our belief is is that these good

and our belief is is that these good Christian churches like you guys see the

Christian churches like you guys see the difference is you guys look at me and

difference is you guys look at me and you go Jacob Hansen is going to be

you go Jacob Hansen is going to be tortured forever eternally by God in

tortured forever eternally by God in hell because he doesn't join the

hell because he doesn't join the Catholic church because he's Mormon I

Catholic church because he's Mormon I look at you guys and I say you guys are

look at you guys and I say you guys are wonderful Christians and your Christian

wonderful Christians and your Christian church has taken you so far that you

church has taken you so far that you actually will go to a heaven probably

actually will go to a heaven probably very similar to what you imagine but

very similar to what you imagine but what we have brought is something to add

what we have brought is something to add on to what you guys have and so I

on to what you guys have and so I believe that the Bible and all of this

believe that the Bible and all of this it is wonderful it's true it's good it

it is wonderful it's true it's good it takes people towards Jesus Christ I'm

takes people towards Jesus Christ I'm just saying don't stop there there's

just saying don't stop there there's more that God has revealed and will

more that God has revealed and will reveal to the world and come join with

reveal to the world and come join with us so that you can have something bigger

us so that you can have something bigger than you even have now which is great

than you even have now which is great what you have now I really don't know

what you have now I really don't know how Jacob could say the church has taken

how Jacob could say the church has taken us so far when the church teaches so

us so far when the church teaches so many things directly contrary to

many things directly contrary to Mormonism that the church teaches us

Mormonism that the church teaches us there is only one God he exists as three

there is only one God he exists as three co-equal and co-eternal persons whereas

co-equal and co-eternal persons whereas Mormonism teaches God and man are just

Mormonism teaches God and man are just of the same species and men can become

of the same species and men can become gods and I guess maybe I'm going to get

gods and I guess maybe I'm going to get my own consolation prize heaven and

my own consolation prize heaven and Jacob will get his own Universe to run

Jacob will get his own Universe to run uh so I get I guess I get to miss out on

uh so I get I guess I get to miss out on that but how could he say that the

that but how could he say that the Catholic Church brought us so far when

Catholic Church brought us so far when it teaches directly contrary against the

it teaches directly contrary against the Mormon view of who God is the Mormon

Mormon view of who God is the Mormon view of who Jesus is the fact that Jesus

view of who Jesus is the fact that Jesus and the devil are eternal intelligences

and the devil are eternal intelligences or they were both begotten of the father

or they were both begotten of the father so technically Jesus and the devil are

so technically Jesus and the devil are brothers because they both have the same

brothers because they both have the same heavenly father who begot them if you go

heavenly father who begot them if you go down this way I I don't see how he could

down this way I I don't see how he could say anything that he should just say no

say anything that he should just say no like previous Mormons did in the past

like previous Mormons did in the past not saying it's official Mormon teaching

not saying it's official Mormon teaching but previous Mormons who said that when

but previous Mormons who said that when the Book of Mormon refers to the great

the Book of Mormon refers to the great and abominable Church uh it's it's

and abominable Church uh it's it's referring to the Catholic Church okay

referring to the Catholic Church okay question for Trent from the cob

question for Trent from the cob Society uh some say that's from far away

Society uh some say that's from far away some say Joseph Smith's faults mean he

some say Joseph Smith's faults mean he was not a prophet do the faults of the

was not a prophet do the faults of the Catholic church leaders invalidate the

Catholic church leaders invalidate the authority of the Catholic Church why or

authority of the Catholic Church why or why not my argument was not that his

why not my argument was not that his faults prove he is not a prophet uh when

faults prove he is not a prophet uh when you look at the prophets in scripture

you look at the prophets in scripture many of them were flawed look at Jonah

many of them were flawed look at Jonah for example uh my argument was if we are

for example uh my argument was if we are assessing Joseph Smith's testimony we

assessing Joseph Smith's testimony we have to assess the man's character we

have to assess the man's character we have to assess is this person an honest

have to assess is this person an honest individual and so one of the examples

individual and so one of the examples that I gave showing that he was not

that I gave showing that he was not honest was that he purposefully hid that

honest was that he purposefully hid that if these plural marriages were such a

if these plural marriages were such a good thing he certainly seemed to go

good thing he certainly seemed to go intensively to hide them from his wife

intensively to hide them from his wife Emma when he went to seal himself with

Emma when he went to seal himself with with other people uh like Emily and

with other people uh like Emily and Alisa Partridge for example or you had

Alisa Partridge for example or you had people like Oliver cowdery calling so

people like Oliver cowdery calling so this is not just anti- Mormons I'm

this is not just anti- Mormons I'm citing cowery and I'm citing others who

citing cowery and I'm citing others who know know Joseph himself like Fair the

know know Joseph himself like Fair the Mormon apologist saying yeah you're

Mormon apologist saying yeah you're right he wasn't really honest about this

right he wasn't really honest about this ites us question well are there other

ites us question well are there other things he wasn't entirely honest

things he wasn't entirely honest about yeah so first of all most of the

about yeah so first of all most of the things that Trent is talking about even

things that Trent is talking about even the stuff from the church or Fair Mormon

the stuff from the church or Fair Mormon and stuff they're talking about the

and stuff they're talking about the allegations against him the reality is

allegations against him the reality is is that we know very little about what

is that we know very little about what actually happened and there's all these

actually happened and there's all these allegations so they're talking about

allegations so they're talking about yeah there were allegations that

yeah there were allegations that potentially that Joseph might have lied

potentially that Joseph might have lied to his wife but that doesn't mean that

to his wife but that doesn't mean that he actually did unless Trent can provide

he actually did unless Trent can provide the specific time and place and exactly

the specific time and place and exactly what was said then we don't know what

what was said then we don't know what Joseph actually said to his wife we do

Joseph actually said to his wife we do know that uh Joseph was involved in

know that uh Joseph was involved in ceilings at the very least to to

ceilings at the very least to to multiple women um but again just relying

multiple women um but again just relying on these allegations without providing

on these allegations without providing the very specific things that he did and

the very specific things that he did and when again it's just the rumor mill

when again it's just the rumor mill that's been going on for forever and and

that's been going on for forever and and ultimately I don't think that that's

ultimately I don't think that that's that's super compelling

that's super compelling okay uh where are we okay this is for

okay uh where are we okay this is for Jacob from HR JB from locals he says how

Jacob from HR JB from locals he says how can you be sure Jacob Joseph Smith was a

can you be sure Jacob Joseph Smith was a true Prophet by the way I'm aware that

true Prophet by the way I'm aware that we're getting away from the book of Mor

we're getting away from the book of Mor is that okay I I don't I don't expect

is that okay I I don't I don't expect you to be you know Mormon Answer Man and

you to be you know Mormon Answer Man and be able to take questions 36 I want to

be able to take questions 36 I want to let everyone know I'm not a subject

let everyone know I'm not a subject expert in all areas I wouldn't even

expert in all areas I wouldn't even necessarily consider myself a a deep

necessarily consider myself a a deep subject expert on every aspect of the

subject expert on every aspect of the Book of Mormon but I mean I can I can

Book of Mormon but I mean I can I can well just like you know if this was a

well just like you know if this was a debate on the Assumption of Mary with a

debate on the Assumption of Mary with a Protestant and someone was asking

Protestant and someone was asking questions about something unrelated I

questions about something unrelated I wouldn't expect you to have to defend

wouldn't expect you to have to defend everything so feel free if like you know

everything so feel free if like you know what let's let's stick to the topic

what let's let's stick to the topic that's fine but here's the question how

that's fine but here's the question how can you be sure Joseph Smith was a true

can you be sure Joseph Smith was a true Prophet when L later prophets who held

Prophet when L later prophets who held his same position as Prophet can

his same position as Prophet can outright teach heresy for example

outright teach heresy for example Brigham Young's Adam God Revelation so I

Brigham Young's Adam God Revelation so I could I mean you'd fire right back and

could I mean you'd fire right back and be like how can you guys believe in the

be like how can you guys believe in the Catholic church when they burned people

Catholic church when they burned people at the stake um and and expelled all the

at the stake um and and expelled all the Jews from um uh from Spain and other

Jews from um uh from Spain and other places I mean the same thing can be

places I mean the same thing can be leveled against the Catholic Church the

leveled against the Catholic Church the reality is is we don't have any standard

reality is is we don't have any standard of infallibility like Catholics do um we

of infallibility like Catholics do um we believe that prophets are men we believe

believe that prophets are men we believe that they are as the Bible or as the

that they are as the Bible or as the catechism teaches like when you're

catechism teaches like when you're talking about scripture like true

talking about scripture like true authors um we believe that these are

authors um we believe that these are human beings who are inspired by God to

human beings who are inspired by God to lead us but that they can make mistakes

lead us but that they can make mistakes now the nature of those mistakes and any

now the nature of those mistakes and any one of those you have to get into the

one of those you have to get into the specifics But

specifics But ultimately I would caution Catholics

ultimately I would caution Catholics about using the argument hey your

about using the argument hey your leaders did things that seemed bad

leaders did things that seemed bad Therefore your church must be false

Therefore your church must be false that's a bad line of reasoning and I and

that's a bad line of reasoning and I and I don't do that with Catholicism I

I don't do that with Catholicism I actually have a lot of respect for

actually have a lot of respect for Catholicism despite the very checkered

Catholicism despite the very checkered past of Catholic leaders including

past of Catholic leaders including things like you know if we're talking

things like you know if we're talking about sex uh fathering illegitimate

about sex uh fathering illegitimate children like popes fathered

children like popes fathered illegitimate children they theyed

illegitimate children they theyed incestuous illegitimate children with

incestuous illegitimate children with daughters and with and with uh with

daughters and with and with uh with sisters I mean it gets ugly and so I

sisters I mean it gets ugly and so I kind of don't want to go down that route

kind of don't want to go down that route and I think like hey like let's not

and I think like hey like let's not throw mud and just assume just because a

throw mud and just assume just because a leader did something that was wrong that

leader did something that was wrong that that's a that that's you know means you

that's a that that's you know means you just got to throw the religion out the

just got to throw the religion out the window do you want to hear that question

window do you want to hear that question again Trent no I I see where he's coming

again Trent no I I see where he's coming from so I have a few points I'll work

from so I have a few points I'll work backwards on the response to the

backwards on the response to the question one I think it's a little

question one I think it's a little interesting that uh Jacob seems to be a

interesting that uh Jacob seems to be a lot more open to allegations of

lot more open to allegations of impropriety among Catholic clerics

impropriety among Catholic clerics allegations that are made against Joseph

allegations that are made against Joseph Smith and others unless they can be

Smith and others unless they can be backed up with a surveillance camera

backed up with a surveillance camera seeing exactly what happened don't don't

seeing exactly what happened don't don't seem to be taken as seriously uh number

seem to be taken as seriously uh number two I I do think this comes the the Adam

two I I do think this comes the the Adam God Doctrine uh that was I agree

God Doctrine uh that was I agree actually I'm going to help Jacob here a

actually I'm going to help Jacob here a little bit not everything that the

little bit not everything that the Mormon church not the Catholic church

Mormon church not the Catholic church has taught Rises the level of an

has taught Rises the level of an infallible teaching or an enduring

infallible teaching or an enduring teaching there are things that briam

teaching there are things that briam young taught that may have been

young taught that may have been speculation that don't Form official

speculation that don't Form official Doctrine like the idea that the God of

Doctrine like the idea that the God of this world was Adam For example there's

this world was Adam For example there's a speculation but it's not it's not an

a speculation but it's not it's not an official teaching so they shouldn't be

official teaching so they shouldn't be held to that you need to compare

held to that you need to compare official teachings to official teachings

official teachings to official teachings however I am concerned about a

however I am concerned about a fallibility problem in Mormonism you say

fallibility problem in Mormonism you say Well about blacks in the priesthood or

Well about blacks in the priesthood or the change about the teaching and

the change about the teaching and polygamy or this or that if Jacob says

polygamy or this or that if Jacob says well we don't have

well we don't have infallibility then that says well could

infallibility then that says well could anything change could the teaching could

anything change could the teaching could two men get married in the Mormon church

two men get married in the Mormon church if you say no could not it seems you're

if you say no could not it seems you're appealing to some kind of an

appealing to some kind of an infallibility you was there ta says

infallibility you was there ta says Trent did you did your study consist of

Trent did you did your study consist of Simply using

Simply using Google no I also read books but Google

Google no I also read books but Google allows me to access things like one

allows me to access things like one thing I really appreciate about

thing I really appreciate about Mormonism uh is that they're wonderful

Mormonism uh is that they're wonderful record Keepers so in researching and

record Keepers so in researching and looking at arguments I went to who are

looking at arguments I went to who are the best who are the Mormon apologists

the best who are the Mormon apologists out there so use Google to see well

out there so use Google to see well what's Jacob been saying you know what

what's Jacob been saying you know what do other Mormon apologist flattering

do other Mormon apologist flattering yeah I uh read what I want to say okay

yeah I uh read what I want to say okay what are the good arguments what are the

what are the good arguments what are the bad arguments and I say here's what I

bad arguments and I say here's what I think is a good argument how would Jacob

think is a good argument how would Jacob how would Fair Mormon how would uh Blake

how would Fair Mormon how would uh Blake oler how would they respond so I use

oler how would they respond so I use Google to find those people and then

Google to find those people and then when there's an allegation made in

when there's an allegation made in anti-mormon work I don't just take that

anti-mormon work I don't just take that at face value I go and I track down the

at face value I go and I track down the original source so I use Google to go to

original source so I use Google to go to the Church of Jesus Christ the

the Church of Jesus Christ the Latter-Day Saints original site and

Latter-Day Saints original site and there you guys are great at this by the

there you guys are great at this by the way tons of archives like the many of

way tons of archives like the many of the quotes that I gave here from Harris

the quotes that I gave here from Harris and cower and others you can find the

and cower and others you can find the original handwritten document where they

original handwritten document where they say these things so I only includeed in

say these things so I only includeed in my case when even if I a Mormon critic I

my case when even if I a Mormon critic I find it I'm not going to take the Mormon

find it I'm not going to take the Mormon critics word at it I want to find the

critics word at it I want to find the original primary source say okay here's

original primary source say okay here's that original letter they did say it and

that original letter they did say it and yeah I don't just rely on Google but I

yeah I don't just rely on Google but I use any tools to find the best cases for

use any tools to find the best cases for and against and sift the evidence okay

and against and sift the evidence okay yeah so

yeah so um first of all I I I appreciate you

um first of all I I I appreciate you recognize our trans Ary we have the

recognize our trans Ary we have the Joseph Smith papers which is literally

Joseph Smith papers which is literally you can go and look at the original

you can go and look at the original documents and a fraudulent organization

documents and a fraudulent organization they generally aren't big on making

they generally aren't big on making their history super transparent if

their history super transparent if there's something to hide I actually

there's something to hide I actually believe that when people actually dig in

believe that when people actually dig in and look at the fully transparent

and look at the fully transparent sources then you actually come away

sources then you actually come away because we actually think that when you

because we actually think that when you look at the truth and we don't hide it

look at the truth and we don't hide it it comes out okay the Catholic Church

it comes out okay the Catholic Church hid the Bible for a while from people or

hid the Bible for a while from people or didn't want them printing it without

didn't want them printing it without their authorization and they so that

their authorization and they so that that's a little different thing now the

that's a little different thing now the other reason this person asked that

other reason this person asked that question question I know why they asked

question question I know why they asked it because what Trent Trent brought up

it because what Trent Trent brought up brought up a lot of stuff today and I

brought up a lot of stuff today and I it's impossible me respond to every

it's impossible me respond to every single thing that Trent said but these

single thing that Trent said but these are all things we've heard before none

are all things we've heard before none of it is stuff that we haven't heard

of it is stuff that we haven't heard before and we've responded to it over

before and we've responded to it over and over and so what he's saying is is

and over and so what he's saying is is if you're just Googling all the typical

if you're just Googling all the typical anti-mormon tropes you can go out and

anti-mormon tropes you can go out and you can find all of the responses to

you can find all of the responses to those tropes and you can find the

those tropes and you can find the answers to everything that Trenton sent

answers to everything that Trenton sent today nothing has been overly

today nothing has been overly threatening okay uh weave 88 says Jacob

threatening okay uh weave 88 says Jacob how can the L s believe that the church

how can the L s believe that the church fell into apostasy after the death of

fell into apostasy after the death of the last Apostle if they believe that

the last Apostle if they believe that the Apostle John still lives according

the Apostle John still lives according to Doctrine and Covenants seven okay so

to Doctrine and Covenants seven okay so um again on the apostasy stuff so um we

um again on the apostasy stuff so um we don't believe well we believe that John

don't believe well we believe that John was translated just like Moses was

was translated just like Moses was translated like this is a similar type

translated like this is a similar type thing you guys might have a smaller list

thing you guys might have a smaller list of people that have been translated um

of people that have been translated um but we believe that John is one of those

but we believe that John is one of those people um but a transl being doesn't

people um but a transl being doesn't have the authority on Earth to continue

have the authority on Earth to continue to do the ministry of the church um the

to do the ministry of the church um the other thing is is that Trent has totally

other thing is is that Trent has totally mischaracterized when he says that we

mischaracterized when he says that we believe the church was gone people don't

believe the church was gone people don't understand what you mean by the church

understand what you mean by the church when we as latterday Saints talk about

when we as latterday Saints talk about the church what is the essence of the

the church what is the essence of the church according to a Latter-Day Saint

church according to a Latter-Day Saint perspective it is what we call Apostolic

perspective it is what we call Apostolic Keys it's the same Authority held by

Keys it's the same Authority held by Peter James John and the other Apostles

Peter James John and the other Apostles and what we believe is that those keys

and what we believe is that those keys included the authority to public re

included the authority to public re ation So when you say the church was

ation So when you say the church was lost people get the impression that what

lost people get the impression that what we're saying is like it's all gone every

we're saying is like it's all gone every bit of it it's nothing but the Great

bit of it it's nothing but the Great Horror of all the Earth which by the way

Horror of all the Earth which by the way Trent didn't mention this is the sort of

Trent didn't mention this is the sort of selective stuff that it's below you

selective stuff that it's below you Trent the the church and you know this

Trent the the church and you know this you know that the church officially

you know that the church officially repudiated uh Bruce armoni who made that

repudiated uh Bruce armoni who made that statement and they have officially said

statement and they have officially said that the Catholic church is not what's

that the Catholic church is not what's referred to that and when he printed

referred to that and when he printed that they came out against it so it's

that they came out against it so it's this is the who is what is the great and

this is the who is what is the great and abominable church it's any institution

abominable church it's any institution uh in the entire Earth that uh Bas the

uh in the entire Earth that uh Bas the way that it's put together is that

way that it's put together is that there's two there's only two churches

there's two there's only two churches this is actually from The Book of Mormon

this is actually from The Book of Mormon it says there are saved but two churches

it says there are saved but two churches in the world the Church of the lamb and

in the world the Church of the lamb and the Church of the devil okay okay so

the Church of the devil okay okay so it's a broad metaphor about Good and

it's a broad metaphor about Good and Evil okay okay and there's good and

Evil okay okay and there's good and there's evil in the world but the

there's evil in the world but the reality is is that it doesn't mean it's

reality is is that it doesn't mean it's not talking about like an official 501c3

not talking about like an official 501c3 organization that's been Incorporated

organization that's been Incorporated that has a hierarchical body that's not

that has a hierarchical body that's not what it's talking about it's talking

what it's talking about it's talking about that there's good and evil in the

about that there's good and evil in the world and the great and abominable

world and the great and abominable church is what is called the work of the

church is what is called the work of the devil right now Bruce armoni said and

devil right now Bruce armoni said and that was the Catholic church now I would

that was the Catholic church now I would say that there oh sorry that's okay yeah

say that there oh sorry that's okay yeah you as always feel free to wrap just

you as always feel free to wrap just real quick the thought is um and Bruce

real quick the thought is um and Bruce armoni was saying that he thought that

armoni was saying that he thought that the Catholic church was part of that and

the Catholic church was part of that and I don't know I will say if you look back

I don't know I will say if you look back in church history I think that at times

in church history I think that at times the Catholic Church have done things

the Catholic Church have done things that were satanic and wrong was the were

that were satanic and wrong was the were the Bishops teaching at the Council of

the Bishops teaching at the Council of NAA part of the Church of the Lamb or

NAA part of the Church of the Lamb or the Church of the

the Church of the devil I would say aspects of it were

devil I would say aspects of it were part of the Church of the lamb but

part of the Church of the lamb but aspects of it were part of the Church of

aspects of it were part of the Church of the devil depending on what they were

the devil depending on what they were teaching okay all right you have a

teaching okay all right you have a minute to respond if you want to I we

minute to respond if you want to I we had we had we we back and forth enough

had we had we we back and forth enough all right this this is fun this is uh

all right this this is fun this is uh okay so here okay I want to give you

okay so here okay I want to give you this opportunity to maybe kind of like

this opportunity to maybe kind of like um help Catholics understand right what

um help Catholics understand right what what Mormons actually teach about

what Mormons actually teach about inheriting their own planet and things

inheriting their own planet and things like that because you know as Catholics

like that because you know as Catholics you know we know what it's like to have

you know we know what it's like to have our beliefs Universe sorry Universe our

our beliefs Universe sorry Universe our our beliefs mocked and misinterpreted

our beliefs mocked and misinterpreted right and and I I don't appreciate that

right and and I I don't appreciate that and so here's the comment and this guy's

and so here's the comment and this guy's trying to be snarky but I want to give

trying to be snarky but I want to give you the opportunity

you the opportunity totally um let's see where where was it

totally um let's see where where was it oh yeah we'll see who's laughing once I

oh yeah we'll see who's laughing once I inherit a planet full of blonde alien

inherit a planet full of blonde alien babes to create my own Mormon Star Wars

babes to create my own Mormon Star Wars Imperial Army Checkmate Trent so could

Imperial Army Checkmate Trent so could you help us Catholics understand what

you help us Catholics understand what the Mormon church does teach about in

the Mormon church does teach about in having your own so so this is one of

having your own so so this is one of those things it's it's I think there was

those things it's it's I think there was a quote by CS Lewis about playing Harps

a quote by CS Lewis about playing Harps forever in heaven and how people don't

forever in heaven and how people don't want to do that the reality is when

want to do that the reality is when we're talking about the afterlife in

we're talking about the afterlife in sort of metaphorical language we're

sort of metaphorical language we're talking about us becoming

talking about us becoming co-participants with God in the Divine

co-participants with God in the Divine God like life that God has right that's

God like life that God has right that's what eternal life is to become as he is

what eternal life is to become as he is and to participate in the great creation

and to participate in the great creation process that goes on into eternity we

process that goes on into eternity we believe that we are not we believe that

believe that we are not we believe that we are children of God and a child grows

we are children of God and a child grows up to be like his father like a puppy

up to be like his father like a puppy what does a puppy grow up to be grows up

what does a puppy grow up to be grows up to be a dog a kitten grows up to be a

to be a dog a kitten grows up to be a cat right we believe that we are

cat right we believe that we are children of God as the Bible teaches and

children of God as the Bible teaches and we don't believe that some metaphor We

we don't believe that some metaphor We believe We were literally created in the

believe We were literally created in the image of God and we are not different in

image of God and we are not different in kind from him and what we will use is

kind from him and what we will use is certain sorts of kind of met orical

certain sorts of kind of met orical language to talk about what that may be

language to talk about what that may be and people will there's been a lot of

and people will there's been a lot of speculation about well God created this

speculation about well God created this Earth that means we're going to create

Earth that means we're going to create one and what that's kind of been is it's

one and what that's kind of been is it's been spun into a sort of caricature of a

been spun into a sort of caricature of a idea of what eternity might be like now

idea of what eternity might be like now and I kind of laugh and Trent we kind of

and I kind of laugh and Trent we kind of laughed about it too when we were

laughed about it too when we were talking it's the idea of like oh Mormons

talking it's the idea of like oh Mormons each get their own plan I kind of laugh

each get their own plan I kind of laugh it's like no my own Universe like

it's like no my own Universe like whatever God is able to do that is

whatever God is able to do that is something that a human being has the

something that a human being has the capacity to do in an eternal progression

capacity to do in an eternal progression to become as God is and the early church

to become as God is and the early church fathers talked about that uh

fathers talked about that uh divinization theosis the only difference

divinization theosis the only difference is is that we actually take it

is is that we actually take it ontologically where you guys only say

ontologically where you guys only say that you can share in the attributes of

that you can share in the attributes of God where we say no we actually are

God where we say no we actually are connected to God as his literal Spirit

connected to God as his literal Spirit children thank you uh I I'd like to

children thank you uh I I'd like to respond a little bit to that uh I so I I

respond a little bit to that uh I so I I think that this really does reveal how

think that this really does reveal how Mormonism is a different religion than

Mormonism is a different religion than Christianity that Christians have

Christianity that Christians have believed in theosis or divinization we

believed in theosis or divinization we will become like God we will be holy as

will become like God we will be holy as God is for example but Christians will

God is for example but Christians will not become when we go to heaven we will

not become when we go to heaven we will not become omnipotent we will not become

not become omnipotent we will not become omniscient uh we will not be Eternal

omniscient uh we will not be Eternal like God is eternal because we're

like God is eternal because we're creatures so the Mormon Church in a few

creatures so the Mormon Church in a few years ago put out a statement becoming

years ago put out a statement becoming like God and it put it this way while

like God and it put it this way while few Latter-Day Saints would identify

few Latter-Day Saints would identify with characters of their own Planet most

with characters of their own Planet most would agree that the awe inspired by

would agree that the awe inspired by creation hints at our creative potential

creation hints at our creative potential in the eternities and so we're not going

in the eternities and so we're not going to be creating other fallible creatures

to be creating other fallible creatures creatures that could fall we will spend

creatures that could fall we will spend eternity in heaven worshiping the one

eternity in heaven worshiping the one true God who is infinite in glory and

true God who is infinite in glory and majesty and our hearts will be full

majesty and our hearts will be full because they'll be filled by the only

because they'll be filled by the only thing that can fill them for all

thing that can fill them for all eternity is the infinite unending

eternity is the infinite unending Majestic God ta says Trent in which

Majestic God ta says Trent in which verses of the Book of Mormon do you see

verses of the Book of Mormon do you see horses being ridden rather than used for

horses being ridden rather than used for food as Scholars suggest um yeah okay

food as Scholars suggest um yeah okay what's this tap IRS a taper thank you

what's this tap IRS a taper thank you tapers would therefore make more sense

tapers would therefore make more sense in that context yes this goes back to

in that context yes this goes back to what Jacob said before like oh these

what Jacob said before like oh these anachronisms we've solved all of them

anachronisms we've solved all of them well if you go and look at the

well if you go and look at the explanations they're incredibly rickety

explanations they're incredibly rickety and I would say they're only solved if

and I would say they're only solved if you you don't press upon them so the

you you don't press upon them so the book more is very clear it talks about

book more is very clear it talks about horses and chariots and it groups them

horses and chariots and it groups them together as if the horses have something

together as if the horses have something to do with the Chariots uh and I could

to do with the Chariots uh and I could so yeah it doesn't describe them being

so yeah it doesn't describe them being ridden but in the vast majority of cases

ridden but in the vast majority of cases in the Bible horses aren't described as

in the Bible horses aren't described as being ridden only in a few cases I think

being ridden only in a few cases I think in like Exodus but the fact matter is

in like Exodus but the fact matter is it's just it's a weird thing to take

it's just it's a weird thing to take from it oh they don't you know whoever

from it oh they don't you know whoever the original writer was he couldn't just

the original writer was he couldn't just refer to this thing as a pig for ex

refer to this thing as a pig for ex example uh that's what a taper resembles

example uh that's what a taper resembles more like than a horse cuz nobody you

more like than a horse cuz nobody you think of a horse you think of something

think of a horse you think of something that can be ridden what's a chariot is

that can be ridden what's a chariot is something that pulled uh and and Mormon

something that pulled uh and and Mormon Scholars Mormon apologists I should say

Scholars Mormon apologists I should say yeah they say oh well the horses were

yeah they say oh well the horses were food so we keep horses around and what

food so we keep horses around and what kind of if it's a dynamic translation

kind of if it's a dynamic translation Jake say oh it's a dynamic translation

Jake say oh it's a dynamic translation well I get the really wrong idea that

well I get the really wrong idea that the horses were meant to be something

the horses were meant to be something you eat cuz I don't eat my horse unless

you eat cuz I don't eat my horse unless it's a real emergency out on the Range

it's a real emergency out on the Range and uh the Chariots oh well actually a

and uh the Chariots oh well actually a litter that's human beings would carry

litter that's human beings would carry because obviously CH in meso America

because obviously CH in meso America there are no roads for chariots to ride

there are no roads for chariots to ride on the trains too steep uh all when you

on the trains too steep uh all when you go through a lot of the alleged

anacronismo America yeah you found fragments from meteorites and things

fragments from meteorites and things like that I but I didn't want to rely on

like that I but I didn't want to rely on the case too much but I would say that

the case too much but I would say that anachronisms of the Bible they're just

anachronisms of the Bible they're just not the same like camels in the time of

not the same like camels in the time of Abraham could be ban rather than

Abraham could be ban rather than Dromedary that's a lot different than

Dromedary that's a lot different than confusing a taper with with a

confusing a taper with with a horse so it's funny TM I think we just

horse so it's funny TM I think we just made this up but what he doesn't realize

made this up but what he doesn't realize is that he doesn't know what the Mayans

is that he doesn't know what the Mayans called the horses that the Spaniards

called the horses that the Spaniards were Rising when they arrived he doesn't

were Rising when they arrived he doesn't realize that they were actually called

realize that they were actually called they called them lightning tapers that's

they called them lightning tapers that's what the actual people in the ancient

what the actual people in the ancient Americas called the horses that arrived

Americas called the horses that arrived with the uh with the Spaniards so it

with the uh with the Spaniards so it wasn't just some madeup thing now the

wasn't just some madeup thing now the reality is is that when you're doing a d

reality is is that when you're doing a d translation you're trying to convey a

translation you're trying to convey a particular idea and um and it's not

particular idea and um and it's not implausible to do that for instance a

implausible to do that for instance a hippopotamus is known as a water horse

hippopotamus is known as a water horse uh in some languages so again this is

uh in some languages so again this is called lone shifting this is already

called lone shifting this is already something that happens and when he talks

something that happens and when he talks about any kind of the archaeological

about any kind of the archaeological stuff uh there's a problem because

stuff uh there's a problem because deserts preserve things jungles do not

deserts preserve things jungles do not jungles literally consume things and

jungles literally consume things and people thought there was nothing in

people thought there was nothing in these jungles now we started to do lar

these jungles now we started to do lar and we have found that there is a

and we have found that there is a massive civilization down there that no

massive civilization down there that no one uh knows or that that that's still

one uh knows or that that that's still kind of not understood all right so I

kind of not understood all right so I thought for the final question I would

thought for the final question I would ask you Jacob to I'll give you both two

ask you Jacob to I'll give you both two minutes each you give me your best

minutes each you give me your best argument against the Book of Mormon

argument against the Book of Mormon being divinely inspired I'm obviously

being divinely inspired I'm obviously asking you to take a position that isn't

asking you to take a position that isn't yours and then you give me try to

yours and then you give me try to actually make it as if you believe it

actually make it as if you believe it give me an argument for why the Book of

give me an argument for why the Book of Mormon is divinely inspired is is that

Mormon is divinely inspired is is that okay yeah all right so start with you I

okay yeah all right so start with you I think the best argument against the Book

think the best argument against the Book of Mormon is the atheist sort of

of Mormon is the atheist sort of argument that's against all of this okay

argument that's against all of this okay the idea is we're talking about miracles

the idea is we're talking about miracles happening in the 1800s it's very easy to

happening in the 1800s it's very easy to think about miracles happening a long

think about miracles happening a long time ago but when they get closer to

time ago but when they get closer to home we start to get like uh I don't

home we start to get like uh I don't think this could happen today you know

think this could happen today you know back in the day armies were swallowed by

back in the day armies were swallowed by by uh by by the sea in in in the Reed

by uh by by the sea in in in the Reed sea and and the atheist presents a con

sea and and the atheist presents a con istent position where they say look all

istent position where they say look all of this is Hocus Pocus and I think that

of this is Hocus Pocus and I think that that is a position that I think remains

that is a position that I think remains consistent and actually makes the case

consistent and actually makes the case against the Book of Mormon so but when

against the Book of Mormon so but when you're not an atheist and suddenly these

you're not an atheist and suddenly these things are in the realm of possibility

things are in the realm of possibility then suddenly they become possible but I

then suddenly they become possible but I would say that the strongest arguments

would say that the strongest arguments against book of The Book of Mormon come

against book of The Book of Mormon come from an atheist worldview that sort of

from an atheist worldview that sort of presupposes that all of this is Hocus

presupposes that all of this is Hocus Pocus anyway though they struggle to

Pocus anyway though they struggle to deal with the evidences that I've I've

deal with the evidences that I've I've presented today all right Trent we're

presented today all right Trent we're going to clip this out and make you a

going to clip this out and make you a Mormon on YouTube one day give us the

Mormon on YouTube one day give us the best argument for the Book of Mormon

best argument for the Book of Mormon being divinely inspired you got to give

being divinely inspired you got to give me a little bit of hair dye and some

me a little bit of hair dye and some blue blueeye contacts to uh really sell

blue blueeye contacts to uh really sell it then uh yeah I would say that that

it then uh yeah I would say that that Jacob gave a very uh probably one of the

Jacob gave a very uh probably one of the higher level defenses of the Book of

higher level defenses of the Book of Mormon so I I think that it's I think it

Mormon so I I think that it's I think it probably gets maybe the the silver medal

probably gets maybe the the silver medal of trying to say well if you the

of trying to say well if you the argument would go if you believe in

argument would go if you believe in Christianity and we have better evidence

Christianity and we have better evidence for Mormonism then you should believe in

for Mormonism then you should believe in Mormonism would essentially be the be

Mormonism would essentially be the be the argument I think one is one is

the argument I think one is one is making uh I think though probably the

making uh I think though probably the strongest argument that I think many

strongest argument that I think many like strong in the sense that's very

like strong in the sense that's very difficult to overcome would be an

difficult to overcome would be an argument from personal testimony and I

argument from personal testimony and I think the vast majority of Mormons would

think the vast majority of Mormons would say that they are Mormon because they

say that they are Mormon because they trust the witness of the Holy Spirit

trust the witness of the Holy Spirit they have a personal testimony even if

they have a personal testimony even if they can't explain everything in the

they can't explain everything in the faith they can't overcome these

faith they can't overcome these objections uh I've know in my heart I've

objections uh I've know in my heart I've had an encounter with God and I know

had an encounter with God and I know that this is true uh and I think that

that this is true uh and I think that that's that can be very difficult for

that's that can be very difficult for someone to present into to overcome with

someone to present into to overcome with evidence because especially if you are

evidence because especially if you are reliant on these sort of inner

reliant on these sort of inner testimonies and what I get really

testimonies and what I get really concerned about is if that inner

concerned about is if that inner testimony starts to fray and Fracture

testimony starts to fray and Fracture Jacob and I were talking about this last

Jacob and I were talking about this last night many Mormons go straight from

night many Mormons go straight from Mormonism to secularism or atheism

Mormonism to secularism or atheism without taking more of an evidential uh

without taking more of an evidential uh approach like Jacob has all right thank

approach like Jacob has all right thank you fellow this has been terrific we are

you fellow this has been terrific we are going to close now with five minute

going to close now with five minute closing statements each unless I'm

closing statements each unless I'm forgetting something no that's correct I

forgetting something no that's correct I think that's it all right so Jacob

think that's it all right so Jacob whenever you want to begin you'll since

whenever you want to begin you'll since you started try get last words so

you started try get last words so whenever you want to begin all right

whenever you want to begin all right well first of all thank you guys both

well first of all thank you guys both for this this has actually been a real

for this this has actually been a real pleasure I've very much enjoyed it um

pleasure I've very much enjoyed it um but for every Christian the central

but for every Christian the central claim is that around 2,000 years ago a

claim is that around 2,000 years ago a real historical person named Jesus of

real historical person named Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead dead so

Nazareth rose from the dead dead so every Christian must ask themsel why

every Christian must ask themsel why it's reasonable to believe this Trent

it's reasonable to believe this Trent answered this in a recent video and here

answered this in a recent video and here today when he said that it is the

today when he said that it is the eyewitnesses that are the primary reason

eyewitnesses that are the primary reason and they're the grounds for Trent belief

and they're the grounds for Trent belief not only in the Bible but in

not only in the Bible but in Christianity Catholicism and the whole

Christianity Catholicism and the whole thing they reduce down to that

thing they reduce down to that ultimately just think about it if the

ultimately just think about it if the resurrection didn't happen is it

resurrection didn't happen is it reasonable to be a Christian the Bible

reasonable to be a Christian the Bible provides us with at most two ey accounts

provides us with at most two ey accounts of the resurrection and one account from

of the resurrection and one account from Paul who claimed to see Jesus in a

Paul who claimed to see Jesus in a vision and with that as his Central

vision and with that as his Central basis Trent concludes it's reasonable to

basis Trent concludes it's reasonable to believe that the Bible is inspired and

believe that the Bible is inspired and frankly I actually agree with Trent um I

frankly I actually agree with Trent um I believe that it is reasonable to believe

believe that it is reasonable to believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead but

that Jesus Christ rose from the dead but let's compare that with the Book of

let's compare that with the Book of Mormon there are well over a 100

Mormon there are well over a 100 accounts from 19 separate eyewitnesses

accounts from 19 separate eyewitnesses to the Book of Mormon plates who all

to the Book of Mormon plates who all went to their Deathbed testifying that

went to their Deathbed testifying that they saw the plates despite facing a

they saw the plates despite facing a literal extermination order in Missouri

literal extermination order in Missouri and rampant mob violence even when some

and rampant mob violence even when some of them were excommunicated by Joseph

of them were excommunicated by Joseph they refused to deny what they had seen

they refused to deny what they had seen and experienced and what Trent has pred

and experienced and what Trent has pred today today is essentially the

today today is essentially the secondhand gossip around

secondhand gossip around it on top of this evidence we have the

it on top of this evidence we have the archaeological evidence historical

archaeological evidence historical evidence literary evidence and the

evidence literary evidence and the demonstrable spiritual or positive

demonstrable spiritual or positive spiritual effect that this book has has

spiritual effect that this book has has on its readers so if someone wants to

on its readers so if someone wants to say that it's reasonable to believe in

say that it's reasonable to believe in the Bible because of its eyewitness

the Bible because of its eyewitness accounts to be consistent they're going

accounts to be consistent they're going to have to explain away not only all of

to have to explain away not only all of the eyewitnesses to the Book of Mormon

the eyewitnesses to the Book of Mormon but also all of the other evidence and

but also all of the other evidence and Trent has failed to do that today what

Trent has failed to do that today what we have seen instead is a clear double

we have seen instead is a clear double standard because essentially every

standard because essentially every argument Trent has made against the Book

argument Trent has made against the Book of Mormon is an argument that can also

of Mormon is an argument that can also be made against the Bible so if you're

be made against the Bible so if you're going to believe in a book with talking

going to believe in a book with talking donkeys Global floods and Egyptian

donkeys Global floods and Egyptian armies being swallowed up by the sea I

armies being swallowed up by the sea I would be careful about asserting that a

would be careful about asserting that a belief in the Book of Mormon is somehow

belief in the Book of Mormon is somehow out of bounds for a reasonable person my

out of bounds for a reasonable person my goal today has simply been this to show

goal today has simply been this to show people that they're laughing off the

people that they're laughing off the Book of Mormon as a joke is no different

Book of Mormon as a joke is no different than atheists who laugh off the Bible

than atheists who laugh off the Bible laughing off a book that has produced a

laughing off a book that has produced a people like the latterday Saints seems

people like the latterday Saints seems strange to me in today's messed up world

strange to me in today's messed up world when you find a group of people who

when you find a group of people who through their Fess faith in Jesus Christ

through their Fess faith in Jesus Christ are so consistently producing stable

are so consistently producing stable loving families high levels of service

loving families high levels of service and charity and have high levels of Life

and charity and have high levels of Life satisfaction perhaps it's time to at the

satisfaction perhaps it's time to at the very least take them

very least take them seriously stepen Webb the Catholic

seriously stepen Webb the Catholic Theologian and philosopher said quote

Theologian and philosopher said quote Mormonism is obsessed with Christ and

Mormonism is obsessed with Christ and everything it teaches is meant to awaken

everything it teaches is meant to awaken encourage and expand faith in him I came

encourage and expand faith in him I came to this conclusion when I read through

to this conclusion when I read through the Book of Mormon for the first time so

the Book of Mormon for the first time so why not be curious about us we don't

why not be curious about us we don't bite why not get to know us I've been

bite why not get to know us I've been I've I've heard that we're nice people

I've I've heard that we're nice people why not read this book in a serious way

why not read this book in a serious way before you mock it there are millions of

before you mock it there are millions of people whose lives have been made better

people whose lives have been made better by this book including mine and for

by this book including mine and for those of you feeling spiritually

those of you feeling spiritually unsatisfied and looking for Hope in

unsatisfied and looking for Hope in today's darkening world please consider

today's darkening world please consider where the Book of Mormon says that you

where the Book of Mormon says that you can find it behold ye shall have hope

can find it behold ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the

through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection and this

power of his resurrection and this because of your faith wherefore who so

because of your faith wherefore who so believeth in God might with assurity

believeth in God might with assurity hope for a better world yay even a place

hope for a better world yay even a place at the right hand of God which hope

at the right hand of God which hope cometh of Faith maketh an anchor to The

cometh of Faith maketh an anchor to The Souls of men which would make them sure

Souls of men which would make them sure and steadfast always abounding in good

and steadfast always abounding in good works being led to glorify God it is my

works being led to glorify God it is my personal witness to you that these words

personal witness to you that these words are inspired of God and that if you open

are inspired of God and that if you open your heart God will reveal that to you

your heart God will reveal that to you as well thank you thank you Jacob Trent

as well thank you thank you Jacob Trent whatever you want to begin take your

whatever you want to begin take your time

right all right well let's draw together the threads of the debate all right so

the threads of the debate all right so the burden was on Jacob to show that The

the burden was on Jacob to show that The Book of Mormon is a divinely inspired

Book of Mormon is a divinely inspired document and he presented various

document and he presented various arguments to show that it's to

arguments to show that it's to purportedly show it's inspired and he

purportedly show it's inspired and he tried to answer some of my arguments

tried to answer some of my arguments that show that it is a human document

that show that it is a human document and he was not able to do that he did

and he was not able to do that he did not meet the burden of showing God must

not meet the burden of showing God must have written this book rather than some

have written this book rather than some other human author be it Joseph Smith or

other human author be it Joseph Smith or someone else and we've heard a lot today

someone else and we've heard a lot today about comparing Christianity and

about comparing Christianity and Mormonism and when you do make those

Mormonism and when you do make those comparisons you see they simply don't

comparisons you see they simply don't add up

add up were any of the Apostles excommunicated

were any of the Apostles excommunicated from the church after Christ's

from the church after Christ's Resurrection no were were the founding

Resurrection no were were the founding Witnesses excommunicated yes uh were the

Witnesses excommunicated yes uh were the apostles able to examine Christ's empty

apostles able to examine Christ's empty tomb to be able to see that this was a

tomb to be able to see that this was a bodily resurrection and not a mere

bodily resurrection and not a mere Vision yes they're able to do that could

Vision yes they're able to do that could people still examine the the Golden

people still examine the the Golden Plates later gone back to Heaven uh did

Plates later gone back to Heaven uh did the did Paul say that what he saw was a

the did Paul say that what he saw was a Vision or an impression that he felt

Vision or an impression that he felt know in 1 Corinthians 9:1 Paul says have

know in 1 Corinthians 9:1 Paul says have I not seen the Lord just as he speaks of

I not seen the Lord just as he speaks of seeing other things uh did the apostles

seeing other things uh did the apostles fight back against their persecutors

fight back against their persecutors like Joseph Smith fought back in that

like Joseph Smith fought back in that shootout in the Carthage Jail no they

shootout in the Carthage Jail no they did not were what the apostles taught

did not were what the apostles taught and said was that been confirmed by

and said was that been confirmed by archaeology absolutely things like the

archaeology absolutely things like the pilot stone that I mentioned earlier in

pilot stone that I mentioned earlier in in our our discussion has what Joseph

in our our discussion has what Joseph Smith described as happening in the new

Smith described as happening in the new world been confirmed by archaeology no

world been confirmed by archaeology no Joseph I'm sorry Jacob went on at length

Joseph I'm sorry Jacob went on at length about a purported archaeological find in

about a purported archaeological find in the old world but notice he certainly

the old world but notice he certainly did that in the new world and just

did that in the new world and just expressed uh a kind of skepticism that

expressed uh a kind of skepticism that we can't really know anything and maybe

we can't really know anything and maybe hoping against hope there will be some

hoping against hope there will be some kind of evidence that might be une

kind of evidence that might be une earthed in the future which once again

earthed in the future which once again to make the comparison did the apostles

to make the comparison did the apostles say that an entire civilization Waring

say that an entire civilization Waring with tens of thousands hundreds of

with tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of people over a Thousand-Year

thousands of people over a Thousand-Year period existed in a particular place

period existed in a particular place especially if meso America just within a

especially if meso America just within a few hundred miles that has never been

few hundred miles that has never been confirmed at all no they didn't say that

confirmed at all no they didn't say that we see that the witnesses I would rather

we see that the witnesses I would rather have I would rather have two extremely

have I would rather have two extremely solid Witnesses such as St Paul's letter

solid Witnesses such as St Paul's letter to the Corinthians and St Luke's bodily

to the Corinthians and St Luke's bodily description of the Resurrection solid

description of the Resurrection solid Witnesses for the resurrection than 19

Witnesses for the resurrection than 19 incredibly sketchy Witnesses of an Angel

incredibly sketchy Witnesses of an Angel they prayed really hard to see or plates

they prayed really hard to see or plates that they saw but not seeing the inside

that they saw but not seeing the inside or wondering what it is so recall I

or wondering what it is so recall I presented four arguments of the Book of

presented four arguments of the Book of Mormon not being inspired it's nothing

Mormon not being inspired it's nothing like the Bible we know where these

like the Bible we know where these biblical events happened but for

biblical events happened but for something a report to be an actual

something a report to be an actual history Jacob will admit that the church

history Jacob will admit that the church does not say where this happened and

does not say where this happened and there are reputable Mormon Scholars that

there are reputable Mormon Scholars that place it thousands of miles away no one

place it thousands of miles away no one knows exactly where that is uh we talked

knows exactly where that is uh we talked about things like plagiarism for example

about things like plagiarism for example yeah I would encourage you go ahead and

yeah I would encourage you go ahead and read the book of Mormon and you'll see

read the book of Mormon and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about

exactly what I'm talking about especially when you start reading

especially when you start reading especially even in the beginning in the

especially even in the beginning in the books of Nephi you'll say wait this

books of Nephi you'll say wait this sounds a lot like this character is just

sounds a lot like this character is just repeating a theme I heard in the New

repeating a theme I heard in the New Testament that's because Joseph Smith

Testament that's because Joseph Smith might not have formal education but he

might not have formal education but he did nightly Bible recitations and

did nightly Bible recitations and recital and speaking with his own

recital and speaking with his own parents and was very well Adept at that

parents and was very well Adept at that and you'll see it in the book of Mor

and you'll see it in the book of Mor when you read it

when you read it and finally we talked about the truth of

and finally we talked about the truth of Catholicism disproving The Book of

Catholicism disproving The Book of Mormon being the foundation for having

Mormon being the foundation for having the Canon of scripture itself that is a

the Canon of scripture itself that is a part of of the Mormon faith and that

part of of the Mormon faith and that argument is never rejected so if you're

argument is never rejected so if you're if you're Catholic I will admit that I

if you're Catholic I will admit that I think a lot of Mormon arguments have a

think a lot of Mormon arguments have a problem with protestantism uh they can

problem with protestantism uh they can have a hard time answering this but with

have a hard time answering this but with Catholicism we have something sure we

Catholicism we have something sure we have something sure so I'd like to end

have something sure so I'd like to end with an appeal to Mormons who might be

with an appeal to Mormons who might be watching um deep down you might think

watching um deep down you might think what most is your internal testimony but

what most is your internal testimony but I would say I want to affirm that many

I would say I want to affirm that many of your personal convictions are correct

of your personal convictions are correct God instituted one church with a

God instituted one church with a hierarchy of Elders he did not want

hierarchy of Elders he did not want Untold numbers of denominations with

Untold numbers of denominations with pastors that run Bible studies uh and

pastors that run Bible studies uh and the church is not pastors following the

the church is not pastors following the man-made doctrine of solos scriptura

man-made doctrine of solos scriptura it's those who hold the priesthood who

it's those who hold the priesthood who have continued the Church of Christ to

have continued the Church of Christ to gather people together to Salvation so I

gather people together to Salvation so I would encourage you to know that this

would encourage you to know that this one Church of Christ that it's

one Church of Christ that it's safeguarded public re ration that was

safeguarded public re ration that was given and continue to exist to teach and

given and continue to exist to teach and bind Believers with teaching authority

bind Believers with teaching authority of an with infallible teaching authority

of an with infallible teaching authority to know the teachings on marriage and

to know the teachings on marriage and life are things that can never be

life are things that can never be gainsay by Heretics in the future to

gainsay by Heretics in the future to lead us to Christ not to a Christ who is

lead us to Christ not to a Christ who is a mere creature like us who is exalted

a mere creature like us who is exalted but the Christ who is the creator of all

but the Christ who is the creator of all the one infinite God who infinitely

the one infinite God who infinitely loves us and desires for us to have a

loves us and desires for us to have a relationship with him and to enter into

relationship with him and to enter into the one holy Catholic and Apostolic

the one holy Catholic and Apostolic church he founded 2,000 years ago that

church he founded 2,000 years ago that has never disappeared from the face of

has never disappeared from the face of the Earth thank you Trent thank you very

the Earth thank you Trent thank you very much Jacob Jacob where can people learn

much Jacob Jacob where can people learn more about you and what you do so my

more about you and what you do so my channel is called thoughtful faith and I

channel is called thoughtful faith and I cover everything from theology to

cover everything from theology to philosophy to current events uh from a

philosophy to current events uh from a latterday saint perspective so check me

latterday saint perspective so check me out on YouTube there all right Trent you

out on YouTube there all right Trent you can check me out at the Council of Trent

can check me out at the Council of Trent so just search Tren horn on YouTube

so just search Tren horn on YouTube iTunes Google play a lot of my articles

iTunes Google play a lot of my articles are also available at catholic.com and

are also available at catholic.com and this is p with the Qui us and if you're

this is p with the Qui us and if you're watching right now please consider

watching right now please consider subscribing and coming back we do long

subscribing and coming back we do long form interviews debates and things you

form interviews debates and things you might find interesting God bless thanks

might find interesting God bless thanks very much

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YouTube Transcript:Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired? w/ @thoughtfulfaith2020 and @TheCounselofTrent