This content emphasizes that significant life changes and achievements stem from focusing on small, consistent systems and habits rather than solely on large goals. It highlights that identity and daily actions are the true drivers of long-term success and personal growth.
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Procrastinating is choosing to delay a
better future. It's choosing to ignore
the results that you could be having,
the potential that you could be
fulfilling. Fix the inputs and the
outputs will fix themselves. Fix the
daily habits and you'll be led to a
different destination. Time is precious.
Today, you and I are getting to learn
from the incredible James Clear. is
widely regarded as one of the top
experts in the world on habit formation
and behavior change whose book on habits
has sold 25
million copies. I'm talking about none
other than Atomic [music] Habits.
>> I feel like if I sit there and I
ruminate about something, it just gets
worse. It gets bigger in my head. But if
I take one small action on it, if I just
get started on it, now I'm influencing
the outcome. You know, now I'm shaping
what's going to happen. action relieves
anxiety. [music]
>> You said at the very beginning is that
the secret to winning is knowing how to
lose. How do you start the engine up
again and what's the mistake you see
people making?
>> There's just a period where you just got
to get through them. Life might be bad
now, but that doesn't mean it's always
going to be that way. Life might be hard
now, but it's not always going to be
hard. And you're going to be okay.
You're going to make it out [music] the
other side. I think we should all give
ourselves permission for our habits to
shift based on the season that we're
facing. Explain
the four laws of behavior change.
>> The first law is to make [music] it
obvious. The second law is to make it
attractive. The third law is to make it
easy. [music] The easier, more
convenient, [snorts] frictionless,
simple a habit is, the more likely it is
to be performed. And the fourth and
final laws,
>> that's amazing.
Hey, it's your buddy Mel. And before we
jump into this unbelievable
conversation with James Clear, you're
about to learn that you're not the
problem. The fact that you don't have
systems is the problem. You're going to
learn these systems. We're going to get
right into it. You're going to love
this. It's going to help you achieve
your goals. But I have a goal, too. My
goal is that 50% of you who watch here
on YouTube are subscribers. And right
before we were about to start this
episode, my team showed me this. 57% of
you who watch the Mel Robbins podcast
here on YouTube are not subscribers.
You're the kind of person who likes
supporting people who support you. My
goal is that we get to 50%. So, please,
if that subscribe button is lit up, it
means you're not a subscriber. Please
hit subscribe. It's free. That's how you
can show your support to your friend Mel
Robbins, and that way you don't miss a
thing. It also tells me and the team,
"Oh my gosh, you love the guests that
we're bringing you, the content that
we're putting here in an attempt to
support you in creating a better life."
All right, thanks for doing that. You're
ready to break bad habits and lock in
new ones using James Clear's research? I
bet you are. So, let's jump in. James
Clear, welcome to the Mel Robbins
Podcast. Hello, Mill. How are you?
>> I am fantastic. I am so excited to
be able to have this conversation with
you because your work has made such a
big difference in my life. I have bought
Atomic Habits and pressed it into
people's hands more times than I can
count. And to be able to unpack the
simple but powerful insights today, I
I've just been looking forward to this
since I started the podcast.
>> No, thank you so much. That's very nice
of you to say. Well, it's true. And
here's where I want to start. What will
I experience in my life that could be
different, James, if I take everything
that you're about to share with us and
teach us today to heart and I apply it
to my life? [snorts]
>> Well, I'll give you three things right
off the bat. So, first is action
relieves anxiety. Action relieves
anxiety. So if you're feeling stressed
about something, you fear something,
there's a problem that's kind of
bothering you, [snorts] taking action on
it reduces the fear that you feel about
the problem because now you're
influencing the outcome. Second thing is
it builds resilience. So in a lot of
ways, I feel like the secret to winning
is knowing how to lose. And what I mean
is it's knowing how to bounce back from
a loss. And so many of the things that
we'll talk about today are about getting
started and about making it easier for
yourself to get started, particularly
after you fail, after you suffer
something. And so the secret to winning
is knowing how to lose. And these
strategies will teach you how to be more
resilient, bounce back from those
losses. [snorts] And then the third
thing is better results. You know, um,
in a way procrastinating is choosing to
delay a better future. It's choosing to
ignore the results that you could be
having, the potential that you could be
fulfilling. [snorts] And most of our
outcomes in life are a lagging measure
of the habits that precede them. So your
bank account is a lagging measure of
your financial habits. Your um physical
fitness is a lagging measure of your
training habits. Your knowledge is a
lagging measure of your reading habits.
It's the thing that is the result of the
action. You're basically saying the bank
account I see today is a result of the
habits that I had like a year ago.
>> Yeah. Almost all the things that we have
now are a result of the daily life, the
daily system that we've been following
for the last say 6 months or year or two
years. You know, it's it's the things
that you do each day that lead you to
the outcomes that you have right now.
Now look, I'm not saying that habits are
the only thing that matter in life,
right? You have luck and randomness.
You've got misfortune. There are all
sorts of things that can influence the
final outcome. [snorts] But
by definition, luck and randomness are
not under your control and your habits
are. And the only reasonable rational
approach in life is focus on the pieces
of the situation that are within your
control. And so we also badly, this is
interesting thing in life, we also badly
want better results. You know, we also
badly want to make more money or double
productivity or be fit or reduce stress.
But the irony is the results are not
actually the thing that needs to change.
It's like fix the inputs and the outputs
will fix themselves. Fix the daily
habits and you'll be led to a different
destination. You know, in some ways I
feel like the two time frames that
matter most in life are like 10 years
and 1 hour. So 10 years is shorthand for
like what are the big meaningful things
you really care about in life? I mean e
sit there and think about most of us
like what do we really want to do? you
know, want to have a marriage that we're
proud of or raise kids that are
successful or to build a business that
thrives or to get in the best shape of
your life, whatever it is, whatever that
big thing is, it's almost always a
multi-year, sometimes a multi-deade
process. So 10 years is shorthand for
like what's that big vision? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And then one hour is shorthand for what
can I do in the next hour that
contributes to where I want to be in 10
years. You know, like never let a day
pass without doing something that is
going to benefit you in a decade. And if
you can live in those two mind frames,
if you can have like both this long-term
vision and this bias for short-term
action, you don't let a day pass without
doing something that's going to benefit
you 10 years from now. You don't even
need to wait 10 years. Usually, usually
it's like a year or two and you're
shocked by how much progress you made.
>> Well, already you are dropping very
clear, very simple, and very powerful
truths. I'm going to call them that
action relieves anxiety, which we're
going to get dig into. That the secret
to winning is knowing how to lose. And
tell me the third one again about procrastination.
procrastination.
>> Procrastinating on something important
is choosing to delay a better future.
>> So, you know this is important to you.
You know this is important to your life,
but not taking action on it now. You're
just pushing kicking the can down the
road, right? Pushing the results further
and further out. And so, by um you the
question you asked me was if I take this
seriously and I follow through on these
things, how will life change?
>> Yes. And the answer is you'll no longer
be delaying a better future. You'll be
working toward it. You'll be
contributing to it.
>> Interview's over. I mean, that
[laughter] right there was absolutely. I
cannot wait to dig into this. What I
would love to talk about first though,
in case the person who is listening
right now or who's watching on YouTube
doesn't know what a habit is, what is
the simplest definition for how to think
about a habit and why are they so important?
important?
>> Sure. Okay. So, good question. I'm going
to define a habit in a couple different
ways. So, first way, if you were to talk
to an academic or researcher, they're
going to tell you habits are these
automatic mindless routines, things you
do without even really thinking about it.
it.
>> Okay? So, like how you pull your pants,
>> brush your teeth, tie your shoes, put
your pants on the same leg each time.
Like, you know, it's just these
automatic mindless behaviors. And it is
true that there are many habits that are
like that throughout the day. But
there's, I think, a different type of
way that we use the word habit to
describe most things. Like, if I were to
ask you, Mel, what are some habits
you're going to work on? You're not
going to say stuff like that. You're
going to say, "I'm trying to get in the
habit of meditating every morning or I
want to get in the habit of writing
every day or going to the gym three days
a week or whatever." Yes.
>> And that is more of [laughter]
>> all those um that's more like a routine,
you know, in a technical academic sense.
It's not automatic the way that brushing
your teeth might be, but what you mean
is I want to do it consistently and, you
know, regularly. And so most of atomic
habits is about that stuff. It's about
how do we pick these big important
things in our lives and do them with
greater consistency and frequency.
>> There are these simple systems and
things and rules that you're going to
teach us today that that I love because
I think when you're somebody that's
struggling to make changes stick in your
life or to even get started, you see it
as a deficit in your personality. You
beat yourself up and say, "I have no
willpower. I'm the only loser on the
planet who doesn't have a morning
routine." And what I love so much about
your work is you're about to show us,
no, no, no, no, no. It's not a failure
in you. It's a failure in the things
that you're going to teach us.
>> Well, you know, a lot of the
conversation about habits kind of frames
things that way. You know, like if you
hear people say, "Oh, you know, oh, I
wish I just had the discipline to follow
through on this." Or, "Hey, maybe if you
really wanted to do it, then you would
follow through." You know, maybe if you
really wanted to do it, you would have
more willpower, discipline, or grit.
And, you know, I don't want to totally
dismiss discipline and willpower and
grit. like they're all very important
qualities in life. But I don't know that
that answer is quite right. You know, I
think many people I bet you know most
people genuinely do want to improve,
genuinely do want to perform at a higher
level, genuinely would like to have
better results. So what I would say is
look, if you're struggling to improve,
the problem isn't you. The problem is
your system. You know, we don't change
not because we don't want to change, but
because we have the wrong system for
change. And if you can have the right
system, the right elements in place,
then improving becomes much easier.
>> Well, I flagged that exact quote. I'm
going to read to you from Atomic Habits,
page 27.
If you're having trouble changing your
habits, the problem isn't you. The
problem is your system. Bad habits
repeat themselves again and again, not
because you don't want to change, but
because you have the wrong system for
change. You do not rise to the level of
your goals. you fall to the level of
your systems. And one of the core themes
that you're going to teach us today is
how to stop focusing on the goal or the
change we want to make and really focus
on the system that helps us create that
goal. Would you define what exactly is a system?
system?
>> A system is just a collection of habits.
So they can be it can be really small
habits, but it's just it's a collection
of habits that are all oriented toward
the same outcome.
>> Oh, I'm thinking about how to make the
habit stick. So you're first talking
about, okay, you've got this result that
you want. You have this goal, but what
is the system, the daily things that
you're going to be doing,
>> in order to make this result happen in
the future? Now, before we get into
goals versus system, for somebody who
hasn't read the book, could you talk
about that concept in Atomic Habits,
getting 1% better every day.
>> This is one of the key ideas in the
book, and it's just this idea that tiny
changes add up to a surprising or
remarkable degree. So, the math of this,
if you get 1% better each day for a
year, so 1.01 01 to the 365th power, you
get 37.78 times better by the end of the
year. If you get 1% worse, so.99 to the
365th power, you drive yourself almost
all the way down to zero. I think it's
0.03. Um, and so you have these results
that are shockingly large or shockingly
small based on little tiny actions that
you do each day. And I think it's
interesting because you know, like what
is the difference between a choice
that's 1% better or 1% worse? I mean, on
any given day, not a whole lot. I mean,
what is the difference between somebody
who reads for 10 minutes today and
somebody who doesn't read at all?
>> Basically nothing. You know, like
reading for 10 minutes does not make you
a genius. Um, but if you're the type of
person who always goes to bed a little
bit smarter than they were when they
woke up, the person who always finds a
little bit of time to learn something
new, yeah, that can be a pretty
meaningful difference in wisdom and
insight, especially over a 10, 20, 30
year period. >> [snorts]
>> [snorts]
>> So, we all have these habits that we're
doing each day and um it's easy to
overlook them, but time will magnify
whatever you feed it. So, if you have
good habits, time becomes your ally and
every day that goes by, you put yourself
in a stronger position. If you have bad
habits, time becomes your enemy. And
every day that goes by, you dig the hole
a little bit deeper. And that's really
what getting 1% better is about. It's
this emphasis on trajectory rather than
position. Now, if you had a a 747 that
was sitting on the runway in Los Angeles,
Angeles, >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> and it takes off and it's going to go to
New York. If you nudge the nose of the
plane 6 feet at the start when it takes
off, it you land in Washington DC rather
than New York City.
>> And it's just about this difference that
a tiny change can make. The the
difference that a small improvement or
being on a slightly different trajectory
can result in. Small changes when
they're compounded over a great distance
or a long time can lead you to a very
different result.
It's hard to wrap your mind around the
fact that if I just focus on getting 1%
better every day for a year that I end
up 37.7
times better. Can you give me like a
like like what if I do like a push-up
every day then maybe at the end of the
like No, I'm serious. I want to
visualize what this is because that's amazing.
amazing.
>> I think first all first of all it's not
really about getting caught up in the
exact number. It's more about the
philosophy. It's like an attitude and
approach of can I try to find some small
way to get better each day. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um the math of it is just compound
interest, you know, like it's just it's
just a compounding curve and compound
interest is almost always surprising
what it turns into in the long run. And
the effects of your habits can also
almost always be surprising what they
can turn into. Now your habits are not
exactly like a mathematical formula,
right? Like your your life is not
exactly like some equation that you're
going to calculate. But the principle of
trying to find some small way to improve
and trusting with how that can
accumulate and compound over time that
is very true and it also I think is very
much how it feels on a given day which
is the actions feel kind of
insignificant on a daily basis. They're
very easy to overlook on a daily basis
and very surprising what they turn into
good and bad a year or two or three from
now. And so it's really about mastering
those small daily actions and what that
can lead us to in the long run. What are
the top two or three surprising ones
that if you did 1% better every day,
you'd be shocked at where you ended up
in a year?
>> You'd be surprised if you work on almost
anything consistently for, say, 2 years.
You're almost guaranteed to be in the
top, you know, 1 to 5% of the population
on it. I mean, nobody else is spending
that amount of time on it. So, that
doesn't mean that you're going to play
in the NBA if you practice basketball
for two years, but it does mean you will
be a much better basketball player.
>> You know, James, let's talk more about
this. There's a deeply personal story,
something that happened to you that
explains the 1% rule.
>> Yeah. So, I, you know, I grew up in a
family, played lots of different sports,
and I played baseball for a long time.
And when I was in high school, I
suffered this really serious baseball
injury where I was hit in the face with
a baseball bat. And it was an accident.
You know, a classmate of mine took a
swing and kind of bat came out of his
hands and uh rotated through the air and
struck me right between the eyes. Um,
broke my nose. uh shattered both eye
sockets, broke the bone behind my nose,
kind of deeper inside your skull. I was
aircared to the hospital and I was in a
medically induced coma overnight. Um and
then the next day my vitals had kind of
stabilized to the point where they could
release me from the coma and it was a
really long road back. Um you know, I
couldn't drive a car for the next 9
months. Uh when I went to my first
physical therapy session, I was
practicing basic motor patterns like
walking in a straight line, had double
vision for weeks. [snorts] So it took a
while. Um, and all I wanted, you know, I
was a teenager. I was 16, 17 years old.
All I wanted was to get back to being
this normal young, healthy kid before,
you know, be able to drive a car and go
to baseball and play and whatever. [snorts]
[snorts]
>> But it was a time in my life when I was
forced to start small.
>> You know, I had to just focus on what
can I do at this physical therapy
session? Am I making any progress from
today? Yeah. The last session to this
one. um you know if I can't do anything
physically couldn't play baseball for
about a year then you know can I study
and do well on this test or try try to
find some small win some small
improvement that I can make [snorts] and
all the things that we're about to talk
about today I would never have said it
that way then like I wouldn't have said
oh I'm just trying to get 1% better you
know like I I didn't have a language for
it um but it was an experience that
forced me to realize um how small
actions can be and still be meaningful
>> yes and that progress can take a long
arc. I barely played baseball in high
school after the injury. I basically
missed my whole the whole next year I
went to college. First year I came off
the bench. Uh second season I was a
starter. Third season I was team
captain. Then fourth year I was an
academic all-American. And that's like a
five or six year arc from that stuff.
And um I never played professionally.
But I look back on that and I feel like
I was able to maximize my potential. M
>> and you know we all have things in life
that we don't ask for. And this was one
for me. It was one of the first things I
said when I woke up the next day was I
never asked for this. But you have to
get out of that self-pity loop. It just
does not serve you. A bad attitude and
self-pity makes every problem harder.
And so you're just at layering on
another challenge to the already
challenging situation. And [snorts] so
instead I tried to be as positive as I
could about it, you know, and try to
find things to to improve each day. And
again, it took five or six years, but I
think that process taught me a lot about
building small habits and bouncing back
from challenges. And so eventually, 10
years later, when it came time to write
the book, I think the book is better
because I struggled. It was better
because I had to go through that
process. And now I know just like
everybody else how hard it is to build
habits, how long it takes to make
progress, and you know, how challenging
it can be to see the improvement that
you've been wishing for. And so I think
those struggles ended up resulting in
better material.
>> Wow. That that story really struck me
when I read the book and I'm so glad you
shared it because it does illustrate the
power of the 1% rule.
>> The human mind is a learning machine.
Almost every skill that you have today
was previously unknown to you. When you
were born, you didn't know how to tie
your shoes or cut a tomato or make
spaghetti or whatever. Um, but you know
all that stuff now because you practiced
it. And you can get better at anything
that you practice. And I think it's
interesting if you look at people, what
are people spending their time
practicing each day, you know, like a
lot of people are practicing the art of
getting mad on social media? People are
practicing the the fine craft of being
fearful and reading about all the ways
that the world is falling apart. They're
practicing scrolling their phone, you
know, like what what are you trying to
get good at? I think it's worth to ask
like what am I practicing each day? What
am I training for? And every moment is a
repetition and your brain will
automatically get better at the things
that you repeat. Uh whatever you repeat,
you reinforce. And so you want to make
sure you're reinforcing the right things.
things.
>> What I love about what you just said is
that often times when you're thinking
about habits, you're thinking about the
new ones. And we don't often have that
moment of honest reflection with ourselves
ourselves
>> where we say, "Wait a minute, I already
have a lot of habits. And if I don't
like how my life looks and feels right
now, whether that's the balance of my
bank account or the way that my I feel
in my body or the kind of relationship
I'm in or my drinking habits or what I'm
doing with my free time,
>> then changing my habits is the way I
change the circumstances of my life.
>> Here's an interesting one for you. I
something like scrolling your phone or
whatever. Mo most people would be like,
"Yeah, that's probably one I don't want
to do as much." But what I find
interesting are the habits that used to
serve me well but don't serve me as well
now. That those have been much harder
for me to give up. The way that I think
about it is I like to ask myself this
question of what season am I in right now?
now?
>> You know, and life has a lot of
different seasons. Sometimes there can
be all kinds of reasons that seasons
shift. You know, maybe it's you get
married or you have a kid or maybe you
move to a city or start a new job. I was
just talking to a mom who she just
became an empty neester and she's like,
you know, for 25 years I've been taking
care of these kids. Now all of a sudden
nobody's here. Like what season am I in?
And what I've slowly learned I I can be
a slow learner in a lot of ways. Um is
when your seasons change, your habits
often need to change. And I found, you
know, for me, I a lot of the time I'll
have a season shift and then I keep
trying to force fit my old habits into
this new season. Uh it takes me 18
months to realize, hey, something needs
to change. And I think this is an
important conversation to have about
habits because people don't say this
explicitly, but a lot of the time when
people are focused on their habits and
they start something new, they don't say
it to themselves, but they're kind of
thinking in the back of their mind, what
would it look like to be successful at
this? Oh, well, I would just do this
habit forever is what and if I stopped
doing it at some point, that must mean
that I failed or I quit or something
like that. I I don't think it has to be
like that at all. You know, like take my
writing habit for example. For the first
three years, I wrote two articles a
week. Those were about 2,000 words each.
Then I signed the book deal for Atomic
Habits. Season changes. Can't can't
write those anymore. So that shifted.
Then I worked on the book for 3 years.
Now, uh, for the last 5 years, I've been
writing a newsletter once a week. Um,
that's much shorter. Um, but at no point
in there do I feel like my writing habit
failed. Just cuz I'm not writing two
articles a week anymore doesn't mean
that, I don't know, I screwed up or
something. um the habit just needed to
change shape based on the season that I
was in. And I think we should all give
ourselves permission for our habits to
shift based on the season that we're facing.
facing.
>> That's so relatable and helpful because
as you were talking about writing, I was
thinking, well, that just happened for me
me
>> around exercise and around nutrition,
the more that I learn about the
difference between men and women
physiologically, the more I learn about
hormone changes in women, the more I'm
like, "Oh, wait a minute. running, yoga,
that's not going to help me the way that
it used to. I got to focus on protein
and I got to focus on resistance
training. Different season, different habits.
habits.
>> Makes a lot of sense.
>> Yeah, I think knowing which season
you're in right now is a really helpful
thing. There there's a certain there are
like some questions I like to ask just
for self-awareness. They help bubble up
some insights about yourself that then
lead to some discoveries about maybe how
I should shift my habits or whatever. So
some of the questions I like, one is
what am I optimizing for? Different
people optimize for different things.
You will probably optimize for different
things at different points in your life.
Sometimes you optimize for making money.
Sometimes you optimize for free time or
creative freedom. Sometimes you optimize
for family. But whatever it is, the
answer is probably very personal to you
and the season that you're in. So what
am I optimizing for?
>> Second question is, what season am I in
right now? So we already talked about
that. The third one can be a little bit
cutting, but it's if I I call it like
the it's kind of like the alien test or
something. Imagine imagine that an alien
comes down from outer space, right? It's
going to follow you around throughout
your day. Can't speak your language,
can't communicate to you. If it could
only see your actions and not hear your
words, what would it say your priorities
are? The interesting thing, I think,
especially about smart people, is you
can come up with a good excuse for most
things. You have very good reason for
why things aren't happening. And so it's
for very easy for you to talk uh your
way out of why things didn't occur. Um
but the alien can't hear you. It doesn't
care. It's only looking at what you're
spending your time on. And um it's just
a nice way to kind of level set and you
know see, okay, I say things are a
priority, but how am I actually spending
my time?
>> Tell me why these tiny changes create
such massive transformation. Why it's
frankly the only way?
>> First of all, it it matters because it's
doable. You know, you really only have a
certain amount of time each day that you
can work with. Everybody says, "Oh, you
have the same 24 hours in a day." But
it's even less than that. I think a more
useful way to frame it is how many hours
per day are under your control.
>> Oo, I love that. How many hours?
>> There's very few. You know, there's very few.
few.
>> Thank you for telling the truth.
>> And so, uh, really it's about what do
you do with those one or two hours, you
know, maybe three, I don't know, but
there's, you know, how many are really
under your control? And so, that amount
of time is what you have to work with.
And so, for that reason, starting small
makes sense. Um, but the bigger thing,
and I I think that this is something
I've learned over time, uh, and
especially through that injury, is how
fun it can be to make a small amount of
progress. Even if you aren't where you
wanted to be yet, you feel good. You
know, you have something to look back on
and be like, I got a little bit better
today. So much of life is lived in this
gray zone. Am I a better spouse today
than I was yesterday? Am I a better
friend? Did I improve my career? I, you
know, I don't know. It's hard to know on
any given day. And so anytime that you
can make a little bit of progress and be
able to look back on that and be like,
you know what, that was better than
yesterday, that feels really nice.
>> Um, and so I think that uh that's
another reason. And then the third
thing, and this is really what getting
1% better is actually about, okay,
>> it's an it's about an emphasis on
trajectory rather than position.
>> You know, tell me what that means.
>> Well, there's a lot of discussion about
position in life. You know, what's the
number on the scale? How much money's in
the bank account? What's the current
stock price? What are the quarterly
earnings? We have all these
measurements, all these metrics for
determining our current position. And
then if the position isn't what we
wanted it to be, if the number isn't
what we like, then we get frustrated or
we feel guilty or we start to judge ourselves.
ourselves.
>> I'm not there yet. Why isn't this
working? I haven't made it. I don't have
the money. I'm never going to get out of debt.
debt.
>> And you hear people say things like this
all the time. I've been running for a
month. Why can't I see a change in my
body? Um our, you know, team has been
meeting every Friday for the last 6
months. We still haven't shipped this
feature. And that that's when like the
frustration starts to build. Uh-huh.
>> And uh so it is not actually about your
current position. What instead it is
about is your current trajectory. Am I
getting 1% better or 1% worse?
>> How do you know? One of the things and I
love that your last name's clear. You
have the best
>> onbrand name for the way that your brain
thinks. But one of the biggest things
that I see from the folks that listen
around the world is not being clear
about what you want and not knowing what
you want. And so is there any way that
you think about how to even understand
this concept of trajectory? Right.
>> So I don't think there's one answer. I
think there are many to this. Um but
first thing is yes, you're right. Many
people lack think what they lack is
motivation, but what they really lack is clarity.
clarity.
>> Um, you know, you feel like, oh, I just
need to get more motivated, but what you
really need to know is what is what is
the most important thing? What am I
working on? The the motivation is
actually quite easy if you're very clear
about what the most important thing is.
But usually people have seven things
that they say are important to them and
then it's not easy because you're being
pulled in all these different directions.
directions. >> [snorts]
>> [snorts]
>> Um, the second thing is, uh, some of the
best advice that I got early on in my
business career was try things until
something comes easily. And I think you
can apply that adi advice to almost
anything. Try things until something
comes easily.
>> And the point is
>> there's this common um refrain of try
try again. You know, if things don't
work, try try again. I think instead it
would be better if it was phrased if
things don't work, try try differently.
You need to you need to keep trying. You
need to keep showing up, but you need to
try different lines of attack. You know,
different things work better than
others. And so by trying a range of
options, especially early in a process,
you put yourself in a much better
position to succeed.
>> So here, I'm going to try to tie all
this together. So if I could add one
thing to Atomic Habits that wasn't in
the book,
>> it [snorts] would be this question of
what would this look like if it was fun?
>> What would this look like if it was fun?
What would it look like if meditating
was fun? What would it look like if
going to the gym was fun? What would it
look like if you know making a sales
call each morning was fun? [snorts] And
that doesn't mean that your habits are
going to feel like the most fun thing in
your life. You know, it's not like, oh,
this will feel like going to a concert
or something. [snorts] But let's take
just the like a common one like exercise.
exercise.
>> A lot of people go to the gym in January
and I feel like they kind of are going
because they feel like they should go or
society wants them to go or something.
>> [snorts]
>> But if we just take 10 minutes and write
out what are ways that we could live a
healthy active lifestyle, there's
dozens. You know, go to the gym, kayak,
rock climb, do yoga, like you can come
up with a lot of things, right? And I
think you should just write that list
out for whatever the habit is that
you're working on and then look at the
10 or 20 or 50 things that you have and
then say, which one of these sounds like
the most fun to me? You know, which one
of these sounds most engaging? And
you're much more likely to follow
through on that than you are on
something else.
>> Okay. Can I give you an example? Because
this is such an important nuance that
could truly change your ability to make
something meaningful stick. Because when
you started talking about the fact that,
you know, as as you're trying exercise,
let's say, I have the hardest time
motivating myself. I'm very clear that I
want to
exercise four or five days a week
because I want to live a healthy,
vibrant life. I want to be hiking into
my 90s and hundreds. I want to be able
to dance at all my kids and grandkids
weddings. Like, that's the why. And I
know that that means today I got to do
this annoying thing called exercise. And
it's always befuddled me that my husband
with zero resistance, zero friction, can
just walk right into a gym, motivate
himself. My daughter's like that, too.
Not me. I wander around like an idiot. I
get bored. I can't stay motivated. I
don't know.
What I've discovered is that if I go to
a class, it's fun.
>> And so that question, how could I make
this fun? What if this were fun? What
would that look like? That changes everything.
everything.
>> The first key, the first hurdle to clear
is to find things that are genuinely
interesting to you, that are genuinely
fun to you. You know, the person who
felt like it was a hassle at the start
or it kind of feels like it's a chore
and they're sort of making themselves do
it, as soon as it gets hard, they're
going to stop. they didn't want to do it
to begin with. But the person who is
having fun, the person who's engaged and
interested, the person who's curious and
excited about it, they're way more
likely to stick with it when it gets hard.
hard.
>> You know, one of the things that I'd
love to have you unpack for us is, you
know, when someone's sitting around
waiting for motivation and they're
struggling to either get started or
they're struggling as they're waking up
today to do the thing they say that they
want to do.
Could you unpack for the person
listening why you have to take the
action first and how motivation shows up
after the action not before.
>> So a habit is a behavior that you want
to do consistently, right? You want that
you want to do consistent
>> that you want to do consistently. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> Motivation we all know sometimes you're
motivated, sometimes you're not. And
motivation rises and falls throughout
the day. So why would you want a
behavior that you want to do
consistently to rely on something that
fluctuates? It doesn't make sense. And
so this is a good reason why you want to
scale habits down to a level where
they're so easy to do. Getting into it
is so simple that you'll do it even when
motivation is low. And so this is
another reason for the phrase atomic
habits, right? It's about making it tiny
and small so that you stick to it even
when motivation isn't there.
>> What does that mean to scale down? If
I'm trying to meditate or I'm trying to
exercise or I'm trying to make that
sales call,
>> I'll give you two examples. So there's
this concept in chemistry called
activation energy. It's how much energy
is required to activate a reaction. So
you can think about like striking a
match. There's a certain amount of
effort that you have to put in to strike
the match and for the flame to start.
Okay? Your habits are kind of like that.
Some habits have really big activation
energy. If you want to do a 100 push-ups
a day, that requires a certain amount of
motivation. You got to keep doing sets
of five and 10 throughout the day or
whatever. And if it gets to 9:00 one day
and it's time to go to bed and you
haven't done your 100 push-ups yet, I
got to kind of motivate yourself quite a
bit to get that in before you go to sleep.
sleep.
>> I need gasoline for the bonfire in that
case. Yes.
>> So, if your uh objective instead is to
do 10 push-ups a day, well then it's
9:00 and you still haven't got them in
yet. You're like, I can probably do 10
before I go to sleep. That's that's
probably doable. Um, and so you can see
these two habits have very different
activation energies. They have very
different amount of effort that they're
requiring from you. So scaling it down
is choosing the thing that's easy to do
that has small activation area.
>> So that' be 10 push-ups a day.
>> Do 10 instead of a 100. Read instead of
reading 30 books a year, it's read one
page, right? It's like stuff like that.
Scale it down. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> There is something that can be tied to
this or is related to this, which is a
phrase that I feel like I remind myself
of a lot, which is reduce the scope, but
stick to the schedule. So there's so
many times where the day kind of gets
away from you, you know, like things get
busy. Let's say you wanted to work out
today and then you look up the clock and
you know you were planning on doing an
hour workout or 45 minutes and you only
have 15 or 20 minutes.
>> In that moment, the conversation I used
to have with myself was, well, I guess I
don't have time to work out today and
then you move on. But instead, what I'm
trying is to say reduce the scope but
stick to the schedule. And so I'll go
down I'll change in my workout clothes
and go down to the my basement and go
down to this little home gym area that I
have and maybe I only have 15 minutes
and I can only do one set of squats, but
that's what I do. And in some ways I
feel like the bad days matter more than
the good days. You know, it's showing up
on the days when it's not ideal. It's
showing up on the days when you don't
have energy or time or capacity that
keeps the habit alive. And if you keep
the habit alive, all you need is time.
But if you throw up a zero now the
streak is broken and sometimes one day
can turn into five days and can turn
into three months and then you find
yourself wanting to get back on track.
And I think rather than asking yourself
what can I do on my best day, you should
start by asking what can I stick to even
on the bad days.
>> Oh, I love that.
>> That becomes your baseline.
>> Okay, so you've already given us two
incredible things which is what if this
were fun? What would it look like if it
were fun? And as you're thinking about
the beginning of a habit, defining it by
what could I actually stick to even on
my worst day, >> right?
>> right?
>> How is it that motivation shows up after
the action?
>> Because you have this feeling of
progress. Now you have something that
you, oh look, I've made some I've made
some movement forward. You know, you
have something to look at. It's the
difference between um hope and evidence.
Now you have some evidence and so you
have a reason to believe it. Say, "Oh,
look, you know, look at myself moving
forward." And that starts to feel really
good once you stack a couple days
together. You know, it doesn't I think
this is one of the lessons of my work,
which is it doesn't take much to feel
good again. You'd be surprised what you
can do with five good minutes. You know,
five good minutes of conversation can
restore a relationship. Five good
minutes of exercise will leave you
winded and like reset your energy and
mood for the day. Five good minutes of
writing will make you feel like the
manuscript is moving forward again. It
doesn't take much to feel good. And so
you just need a little bit to get you
get yourself back on the path.
>> That's the entire premise of this
podcast that it's takes so little to
make you feel good again and once you do
the progress and the momentum kicks in.
If you're the kind of person who's
listening and you're like, "God, I've
just failed too many times and so you
feel discouraged about starting again."
Whether it's putting yourself back out
there on the dating scene or it's
>> dusting off your resume after getting
laid off and feeling like what value do
I have to offer or you tried yet again
to lose the weight or to stick to the
meditation and you failed again. So what
is the failure premortem?
>> Okay, so first you want optimism. My
little shorthand is I I don't want to be
my own bottleneck. Okay, so um I try to
work backwards from magic at the start.
What would the magical outcome be? What
would the thing that I really want to
achieve look like? What's the optimal
outcome look like? [snorts] Then the
next phase, this is where the failure
premortem comes in. So you switch from
optimism to pessimism. All right, I know
where I want to go. So now let's be
let's be my own critic for a minute. the
failure premortems. It's just this
simple question of if we look back six
month six six months from now and this
has failed, where does it fail? So, it's
just you're pre-analyzing where the
potential points
>> before you even you haven't done
anything yet, but you're trying to be
the one to figure out what are the flaws
in what I'm about to do. Okay?
>> And so, the the failure premortem just
says if this fails, where does it fail?
>> And you can come up with all kinds of
things like that. Let me give you an
example for habits. So, like let's say
that you want to start going to the gym.
>> Yes. and you're like, "Well, if this
plan fails, where does it fail?" And you
it might fail because you don't know
which gym you're going to use. So you're
like, "All right, I'll pick one that's
on the route of my commute each day." So
then you say, "Okay, it might fail
because I don't have my gym clothes
ready." So you're like, "All right, I
need to set my clothes out the night
before or have my gym bag ready early."
I [snorts] had one person who they were
like, "I am going to the gym and I wish
I could stick to it more, but I just
this gym doesn't have a water fountain."
And so when I go there, I'm like, uh, I
always forget to bring my water bottle,
and that's enough to make me be like,
I'm not going to go cuz they I they
don't have a water fountain there. And
little points of friction like that kind
sound kind of silly when you say it, but
you're like, yeah, that's a that's a
potential point of failure, and you need
to have a plan for getting your water
bottle full and make sure that you bring
that each day. And so you start to check
off these boxes of what are the things
that could hold you back from this plan
working. And then you switch back to
optimism because what you don't want is
to go into this process feeling like
you're doubting yourself to begin with.
>> I'm screwed. I why am I even doing this?
>> That's not that attitude is just going
to make it harder. So you start with
optimism, you switch to pessimism, try
to poke the holes in your argument, and
then you're back. We're back to optimism
again. We want everybody on board and
feel like we've got the right attitude
going into it.
>> Okay. I love this because one of the
things that I immediately thought as you
were using the gym example is I
immediately could pop into the pessimism mindset
mindset
>> and I think I'm a good problem solver
but I was like okay well I don't know
what to do at a gym
>> and so I walk around and then feel
overwhelmed and intimidated because I'm
not quite sure what the routine should
be and then I leave. Mhm.
>> The other one is I would immediately see
that I would have shot the goal too high
>> and would have started with an hour
every day for the next 6 months.
>> And so now I'm like, "Oh, wait a minute.
I got to reduce the time and stick to
the schedule and what could I get done
on my worst day?
>> So what could the goal be?" So now I'm
using your tools. And then I finally am
now saying, "Well, I would about a
weekend go, this isn't fun anymore." And
so I can see how you can anticipate
ways in which you would break your own
>> ability to make it happen.
>> So two things here. The first is some of
this depends on how you're measuring
things. It can really be helpful to pick
a different form of measurement. So if
you take like going to the gym, what's
the common measurement? Everybody's
like, "What's the scale say? And how do
you look in the mirror?" That's what
everybody's measuring. But let's forget
about that. Measure it in a totally
different way. So this reader, his name
is Mitch, and I mentioned him in Atomic
Habits. When he first started going to
the gym, all right, so he lost over 100
pounds. He's kept off for more than a
decade now. And when he first started
going, he had this strange little rule
for himself where he wasn't allowed to
stay for longer than 5 minutes. So he'd
get in the car, drive to the gym, get
out, do half an exercise, get back in
the car, drive home. And it sounds
silly, you know, you're like, "This
doesn't this is not going to get him the
results that you want." But [snorts]
if you take a step back, what you
realize is he was mastering the art of
showing up,
>> right? He was becoming the type of
person that went to the gym four days a
week, even if it was only for 5 minutes.
And that's that's the different form of
measurement there. He's not measuring
the results. He's measuring did I show
up or not. And that gives him something
else to win on in the early days. >> [snorts]
>> [snorts]
>> I think this is a pretty deep truth
about habits. Something that people like
often overlook, which is a habit must be
established before it can be improved.
>> It has to be
>> Hold on a second. A habit must be
established before it can be improved.
>> A habit must be established before it
can be improved. You have to standardize
before you optimize. I mean, how often
in our lives do we try to optimize
things before we get started? You know,
you're so busy finding the perfect sales
strategy, the best workout plan, the
ideal diet to follow,
>> best journal,
>> right? You want to you want to optimize
everything from the start. Um
>> because it makes me think I'm doing it, James.
James.
>> Right. That's exactly it.
>> It's a form of procrastination for me.
>> I call it the difference between motion
and action.
>> So motion are things that make you feel
like you're making progress. So I'm
going to look up a trainer that maybe
could help me at the gym. Doesn't matter
how many times you look up trainers in
your area. It's not going to do anything
to get you fit. Doesn't mean you don't
need a trainer. It doesn't mean you
shouldn't use one. I'm not saying that.
I'm just saying that action is never
going to result in the outcome that you
want. [snorts] Doing a set of squats or
doing five push-ups that now that's
something that could get the results
that you want. [snorts] Um and so uh
researching business names want to
launch a business. Let me or designing a
logo doesn't matter how many times you
design your business logo, it's never
going to result in a paying customer. Um
doesn't mean a business doesn't need a
logo, but it's just one is motion, one
is action. So action is a a behavior
that can get the result that you want.
Motion is a behavior that makes you feel
like you're making progress.
>> Um, one of the things that I love about
the way that you think about habits and
behavior change is you talk about the
connection between identity and
behavior. And you write you know who do
I want to become is a way better
question to ask yourself than what do I
want to achieve? Why?
>> I think it's very natural to start with
results and outcomes. But the results
are not the thing that you really need
to change. You know, what you need is to
be consistent, to stick with it. You
need to show up consistently. You need
to follow through on, you know, the
actions that are going to lead to that outcome.
outcome.
>> So, I kind of think of it almost like
the layers of an onion. >> Okay?
>> Okay?
>> So, the outermost layer of the onion are
the results that you want the outcome.
So, let's say lose 40 pounds. Okay? The
next layer in is the action, the plan
that you have. The the actions that you
take. Most of the time when people want
to make a change, they're like, "Yeah, I
you know, I want this result, so I need
to do follow through on this plan. I
need to go to the gym four days a week
and eat on this diet or whatever." And
the implicit assumption is if I do those
things and get that result, then I'll be
who I want to be. I'll I'll be happy
with who I am. I'll be more like the
person that I hope to be. [snorts] But
the innermost layer of the onion, the
core is who you are, your identity, who
who you become. And so it's like what,
how, and who. And instead of starting
with what you want and figuring out how
to do it and assuming that I will then
be the person I want to be, I think it
is better to invert that process and
start by saying, who do I wish to
become? Or in this example, who is the
type of person that could lose 40 lbs?
Well, maybe it's the type of person who
doesn't miss workouts. And then you're
focused on that, not on the weight. And
so what it does is by focusing on the
identity, it kind of inverts how you
think about the habit. Rather than it
being about hitting a certain number on
the scale, it becomes about becoming a
certain type of person. Being the type
of person who doesn't miss workouts in
this example, your habits are how you
embody a particular identity. So every
day that you make your bed, you embody
the identity of someone who is clean and
organized. If you study biology for 20
minutes on Tuesday night, you embody the
identity of someone who is studious.
Your habits provide evidence of who you
are. This is the real reason, the deeper
reason that habits matter. We often talk
about habits as mattering because of the
external results that they get you. Hey,
habits will help you be more productive
or make more money or reduce stress. And
like look, habits can do all that stuff
and that's great, but the real reason,
the true reason that habits matter is
that every action you take is like a
vote for the type of person you wish to
become. So, no, doing one push-up does
not transform your body, but it does
cast a vote for I'm the type of person
that doesn't miss workouts.
>> And no, giving one bit of positive
feedback to somebody on your team does
not make you the world's best leader,
but it does cast a vote for I'm the type
of team member who cares about the
people around them. [snorts] And I think
this is a little bit different than what
you often hear. You often hear something
like fake it till you make it. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And I don't necessarily have anything
wrong with fake it till you make it.
It's asking you to believe something
positive about yourself. However, it's
asking you to believe something positive
without having evidence for it. And we
have a word for beliefs that don't have
evidence. Call that delusion. Right?
Like we have this mismatch between what
you say you are and what you're actually
doing. And [snorts] so my encouragement
is to let the behavior lead the way. to
let sending one email or writing one
sentence or meditating for five minutes
to let that small action be evidence
that in that moment you were that kind
of person and then as you start to cast
votes for that identity you have every
reason in the world to believe it and so
I think this is what really gets habits
to stick it is the
reinforcement of your story
>> it's the reinforcement of how you see
yourself and the identity that you're
trying to build and that's why I say I
think we should often start by asking
not what do I wish to achieve, but who
do I wish to become? And how are my
actions reinforcing that? And if you can
get those two things aligned, now you
have a really deep throughine from your
daily actions to this bigger, larger
identity that you want to build. And if
you can connect the things that you do
each day, those small choices with the
person that you want to be in the long
run, you can see how important they are
even when they're little.
>> I want to make sure that as you're
listening or watching, you really got
that question. Who do I want to become?
If you start there and you start with a
vision for the kind of person you want
to become and then we invert that onion
that you were talking about. So you know
who you want to become. Then you ask
yourself, well, how do I become that
kind of person and what do I need to do?
Now we have a road map that leads you to
the small daily habits that cast the
vote to get you there.
>> I think what we're ultimately trying to
get to is a place where you take pride
in being that kind of person. Well, this
brings us to one of my absolute favorite
parts of Atomic Habits and your
research. This changed my entire mindset
and honestly changed the type of person
that I am. And it's the difference
between setting goals versus focusing on
systems. And so I want to read to you
from this section titled forget about
goals, focus on systems instead. And
you're right, for many years, uh, this
was how I approached my habits. Each one
was a goal to be reached. I set goals
for the grades I wanted to get in
school, for the weights I wanted to lift
in the gym, for the profits I wanted to
earn in business. I succeeded at a few,
but I failed at a lot of them. The
results had very little to do with the
goals I set and nearly everything to do
with the systems I followed. What's the
difference between systems and goals?
It's a distinction. I first learned from
Scott Adams, a cartoonist behind the
Dilbert comic. Goals are about the
results you want to achieve. Systems are
about the processes that lead to those
results. And you write about this just
one example that made so much sense. If
you're a coach, your goal might be to
win a championship, but your system is
the way you recruit players, manage your
assistant coaches, and conduct practice.
and you pose this interesting question.
What if you completely ignored your
goals and you focused on your system?
And I'd love to unpack this because I do
think that this is where I got things
wrong for so long. I was very focused on
defining goals and I spent little to no
time really looking at the systems that
create progress toward those goals. Can
you unpack this for us?
>> I was like that too. I think of my
nature is I'm naturally very goal
oriented and outcome oriented and you
know we all want better results, right?
>> Um so I don't think goals are ever going
to be like a zero in your life and
you're never going to think about them.
It's just so natural to focus on them.
What I'm trying to encourage here is to
focus on the other side of the equation
which is the daily habits that you are
following. If I was going to put a
little finer point on the language
there, what do I mean by goal and system?
system? >> Yes,
>> Yes,
>> your goal is your desired outcome, the
target, the thing you're shooting for.
What is your system? It's the collection
of daily habits that you follow. And if
there is ever a gap between your goal
and your system, if there's ever a gap
between your desired outcome and your
daily habits, your daily habits will
always win. I mean, almost by
definition, your current habits are
perfectly designed to deliver your
current results. Whatever habits you've
been following for the last 6 months or
year or two years, it's carried you
almost inevitably to the outcomes that
you have right now. So, where I've kind
of come down on this after thinking
about it for a little while is goals are
good for clarity. They're good for
setting a sense of direction. Get
everybody rowing the boat in the same
same direction. They can be good for
filtering. So, if somebody comes to you
with an opportunity and they say, "Hey,
do you want to do this?" You can run it
through your list of goals and say,
"Well, does this get me closer to what I
want or not?" Maybe it makes it easier
to say yes or no to that. But the vast
majority of your time should be spent
focused on building a better system.
Goals are good for people who care about
winning once. Systems are best for
people who care about winning repeatedly.
repeatedly.
>> You know, if you really want to make
progress and make it again and again, if
you want to get high performance and
keep the performance high, you need some
set of systems, some collection of daily
habits to keep you up there. The other
interesting thing that I realized is
that the winners and the losers often
have the same goals. You know, if you
have a job opening and 100 people apply,
presumably every candidate has the goal
of getting the job. the goal is not the
thing that determines the outcome. It's
presentation skills in the interview,
who they know at the company, education,
experience, like all sorts of things,
right? Or um you know, at the Olympics,
presumably every athlete who's competing
has the goal of winning the gold medal.
You know, the goal is not the thing that
determines the outcome. Again, it's
genetic ability, talent, coaching,
strategy, how much sleep they got the
night before, like all sorts of factors.
And so if the winners and the losers
have the same goals, the goal cannot be
the thing that makes the difference in
their performance. It has to be
something else. And that something else
is the system. It's their daily habits.
So you've talked a lot about this word
systems. I would love to have you just
break down some for some of the habits
that people tend to
take on a lot. What about for saving
money? What might be a system just to
jog the person who's listening? So,
here's an interesting one that one of my
readers uses. Saving money is an
interesting and there's an interesting
category of habits which are things that
you basically don't do and then you need
to feel good about it. Like saving money
is basically when I don't spend is when
I'm achieving this goal. And you know,
it's like not playing video games or
don't drink wine. Like things like that
are uh tricky to feel good about because
you're just resisting doing something.
>> So, [snorts] I thought this was a clever
solution. I have I have this one reader.
He and his wife wanted to eat out less,
spend less money eating out at
restaurants and cook at home more. But
again, if you just, well, we're not
going to go out to eat tonight, that
doesn't really feel great. So, what they
came up with was they opened a separate
savings account and they labeled it trip
to Europe. And then anytime that they
stayed home, they would move 20 or 50
bucks or whatever over that they were
going to spend that night. They move
that over to the account. And what they
get in the moment is the feeling of, oh,
we're building toward this vacation that
we want to go on. Um, and then at the
end of the year, they took the money and
put it toward the trip. Um, and so they
found a way to take something that
usually doesn't have much of a benefit
and give it a positive association, a
positive feeling. And so that was part
of their system for saving money or for
not eating out was well first we're
going to move the money over and then
we're going to choose what recipe recipe
are we making tonight and then we go
into the kitchen and prep it and
whatever. And so it's just a simple
couple pro steps but it makes it a lot
more enjoyable.
>> What about a system for eating healthier?
healthier?
>> Eating healthier is interesting and it's
a tricky one. Um, I think it provides a
good example of people will say
something that they think is simple, but
it's actually not that simple. They
think they're making it easy and simple,
but they need to scale it down even
more. So, like let's say somebody says,
"All right, I'm just going to focus on
one habit. I'm just going to try to eat healthy."
healthy."
>> Well, you know what is involved in that,
right? Like, if you're if you're
currently eating a lot of meals out or
ordering a lot of meals. Well, first you
need to decide what you're going to
make. You need a grocery shopping habit.
So, you got to get the stuff. You need
some meal prep habits. Maybe you even
need new skills like do you need knife
skills or like learn how to do some
stuff that maybe didn't know how to do
before. After you make the meal, you
have a bunch of dishes that need to be
cleaned. So now you need to develop like
a cleaning habit of washing those. So
there's actually like six or seven
things that are all separate habits. So
I would say you can try to scale this
down and start easy on yourself. And
maybe you know for like let's take doing
the dishes for example, maybe for the
first week you just eat off of paper
plates. And no, it's not super
sustainable. It's not the thing that you
want to do forever, but you're trying to
take one element out of the equation so
that you make it easier for yourself to
do it. Um, another example that I
thought was interesting, I talked to one
woman who she took this idea of, we
talked about earlier, what would this
look like if it was fun?
>> So, she wanted to start eating healthier
and bring her her lunch into work each
day, but she realized the making a salad
didn't sound that fun to her. Yeah.
>> And so, she came up with this phrase
that she called a party in a bowl. And
so she would make a salad, but she would
do like all kinds of wild things at the
start, like she would chop up Snickers
bars and throw them in or she would like
crumble potato chips on top or whatever.
She just wanted it to feel like a party
in a bowl. And she did that for the
first like two weeks or month. And then
after a month of bringing her lunch in,
she was like, "Okay, now I'm actually
making it every morning." Um, then she
was like, "How can I make this
healthier? Um, how can I, you know,
improve the quality of this?" And so
>> I love, by the way, the potato chips on
the salad. I think that sounds
fantastic. What a great idea. Little crunch,
crunch, >> right?
>> right?
>> Little salt,
>> texture seems good. Um, but you know,
how do you make it fun? How do you
increase the odds that you master the
art of showing up? That's kind of that's
the like first hurdle to clear.
>> Yeah. And what I also loved is that
you're identifying for us the fact that
we trip over ourselves because we make
the results that we want either too big
or too vague. that we underestimate the
complexity of the amount of change we're
asking ourselves to make.
>> If you start with perfection as the bar,
it becomes really hard to get started.
>> How do you think or what have some of
your readers said about the systems and
habits related to cutting back on
something like drinking or vaping or one
of those things?
>> Yes. Let's talk a little bit about
breaking bad habits. There's kind of
there's if if you want to break a bad
habit, yes,
>> there are three different things you
could do. So, first thing is you could
eliminate it entirely. So, cut it out
cold turkey. All right. Second way to
break a bad habit is you could reduce
it. So you don't necessarily stop it,
you just reduce it to your desired
degree. I would say a lot of people
probably feel this way about their
phones. It's not that I never want to
use my phone. I just want to use it a
little bit less or scroll a little bit
less or whatever. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> Um and then the third category is you
could replace it.
>> So you can eliminate, you can reduce, or
you can replace. Those are really your
three options if you want to break a bad
habit. And if you replace it, then
you're substituting a new habit in its
place. Um hopefully one that's more
healthier or more productive. >> [snorts]
>> [snorts]
>> Um, let me kind of answer these in
reverse order. All right, so replace it.
Habits, we talked a little bit early on
about some ways to define a habit.
Here's another way to define it. A habit
is a solution to a recurring problem in
your environment. Right? So, it's a
solution to a recurring problem that you
face. Let's say, for example, you come
home from work and it's 5:30 and you're
feeling exhausted and tired from a long
day. All right? That is a recurring
problem that is going to happen
throughout the weeks and months that
your brain has to figure out how to
solve. And for one person, maybe they
solve it by scrolling on Instagram for
30 minutes.
>> For another person, the way they solve
it is maybe they smoke a cigarette. For
a third person, maybe the way they solve
it is they go for a run. And you can see
that some of these solutions are
healthier than others, but they're all
solving the same root problem, which is
I feel stressed and exhausted and tired
after a long day, and I want to find a
way to reset and kind of change my
energy. [snorts]
>> Um, and early in your life, I think
particularly in your 20s, you may have
this realization where the solutions
that you have to the problems that you
face are kind of things that you
inherited or you picked up from your
parents. uh you know what are the odds
that the first way that you learn to
solve this problem is the best way
mathematically speaking it's very
unlikely that the way that your current
solutions to the problems that you face
are the best solutions.
>> So let me just give you an example. So
if you uh grew up in a household where
you saw mom or dad come home from a long
day at work and they poured themselves a
glass of wine as a way to unwind, turn
off their brain, step into the evening.
If you inherited that habit as the way
you solve the problem of I've had a long
day at work, I'm totally stressed. I
want a quick way to de-stress. And the
habit is pour a glass of wine or pour a
drink. That's an example of the type of
thing you're talking about.
>> Yeah. And I think the first step is not
to judge yourself for it or to feel
guilty about it. You don't you don't
need to feel bad about it. It's just
it's almost like sometimes I try to look
at my habits almost like I'm going to
the zoo. You know how you like go and
look at an animal, you're like, "Oh, how
interesting that they would do that."
You know, like, "Oh, oh, isn't that
silly that they behave in that way?"
Like you kind of look at yourself with
that lens. You're like, "Oh, okay.
Interesting that I'm doing this." Um, [snorts]
[snorts]
>> and you just want to see things clearly.
>> And then once you see how you're
actually behaving, well, then there are
adjustments that you can make. And I
think at that point, you realize, all
right, it's not my fault necessarily
that I'm doing these things or that I
learned this way to do it, [snorts] but
now it is my responsibility to make the
change. The next level is you say, "All
right, I'm going to try to reduce the
amount of time that I do this." One way
that I try to practice this, so I have a
home office and I have this little rule
where I try to keep my phone in another
room until lunch each day. Um, usually
it ends up being like 9 to 11, 9 to
noon, something like that. And I can't
do it all the time, but I can do it
maybe 70% of the time. And whenever I do
it, I think it's interesting because
it's like the phone is just down the
hallway. It's only 30 seconds away, but
I never go get it. And so I'm like, did
I want it or not? You know, on the one
hand, I wanted it so bad that when it
was next to me, I would check it every 3
minutes. And on the other hand, I never
wanted it badly enough that I would be
willing to work 30 seconds and go down
the hall and get it. And a lot of your
habits are like that. They will curtail
themselves to the desired degree if you
just introduce a little bit of distance
or a little bit of friction. The more
that um you increase friction between
you and the behavior, the more likely it
is to reduce itself. Mhm.
>> So there are a lot of environmental
changes that could potentially work there.
there. >> Talk to us about the environment and the
>> Talk to us about the environment and the role that environment plays in terms of
role that environment plays in terms of sticking to habits.
sticking to habits. >> There's a chapter in atomic habits
>> There's a chapter in atomic habits that's called the secret to
that's called the secret to self-control.
self-control. >> And there's a story that many of us tell
>> And there's a story that many of us tell ourselves which is oh you know if I was
ourselves which is oh you know if I was just more disciplined, if I just had
just more disciplined, if I just had more self-control then I would be able
more self-control then I would be able to do these things. But the big takeaway
to do these things. But the big takeaway from the research in that chapter, the
from the research in that chapter, the surprising insight is that when you look
surprising insight is that when you look at people who exhibit high levels of
at people who exhibit high levels of self-control, the common pattern across
self-control, the common pattern across them is not that they have higher
them is not that they have higher discipline than the average person. The
discipline than the average person. The common pattern is that they are in
common pattern is that they are in situations where they're attempted less
situations where they're attempted less frequently.
frequently. >> Tempted less frequently. Fewer
>> Tempted less frequently. Fewer temptations is the single biggest driver
temptations is the single biggest driver of exhibiting high self-control. And so
of exhibiting high self-control. And so the the lesson is you don't need to try
the the lesson is you don't need to try to be more disciplined. You don't need
to be more disciplined. You don't need to wish that you were a person with more
to wish that you were a person with more willpower. You need to take a little bit
willpower. You need to take a little bit of time to design an environment where
of time to design an environment where you're not tempted as frequently. So
you're not tempted as frequently. So that could mean simple things like not
that could mean simple things like not having chips in the house or not having
having chips in the house or not having cigarettes in the house or things like
cigarettes in the house or things like that. Um it could mean more complicated
that. Um it could mean more complicated things like looking at your
things like looking at your relationships and saying who are the
relationships and saying who are the people that have the behaviors that I
people that have the behaviors that I want to have. You know what what are the
want to have. You know what what are the common habits of my friend group or my
common habits of my friend group or my peer group? And that's not necessarily
peer group? And that's not necessarily saying I never see these people again,
saying I never see these people again, but maybe I only see them in pockets,
but maybe I only see them in pockets, you know, or in certain situations. And
you know, or in certain situations. And then other people I'm trying to expose
then other people I'm trying to expose myself to more and hang out with more.
myself to more and hang out with more. And um so those are all ways that you
And um so those are all ways that you can start to think about where are the
can start to think about where are the temptations in my life or where am I
temptations in my life or where am I having to where do I need to go against
having to where do I need to go against the grain of the situation to have the
the grain of the situation to have the habits that I want to have and where am
habits that I want to have and where am I working with the gradient of the
I working with the gradient of the situation
situation >> and working with because it's actually
>> and working with because it's actually taking me in the direction of the kind
taking me in the direction of the kind of person I want to become and working
of person I want to become and working against is you recognize you're in an
against is you recognize you're in an environment that is taking you away from
environment that is taking you away from the kind of person you want to become.
the kind of person you want to become. Let's stay for a second on
Let's stay for a second on people. What are the systems or changes
people. What are the systems or changes or ways that that you think about being
or ways that that you think about being surrounded by people
surrounded by people >> that are supporting who you want to
>> that are supporting who you want to become?
become? >> It's a huge driver of our habits. There
>> It's a huge driver of our habits. There there's a chapter in Atomic Habits um
there's a chapter in Atomic Habits um about the influence of friends and
about the influence of friends and family on our behaviors. And I think if
family on our behaviors. And I think if I could write it again, I would even
I could write it again, I would even expand it because it's it's even bigger
expand it because it's it's even bigger than I think I realized. So humans are
than I think I realized. So humans are very social creatures. We we all have a
very social creatures. We we all have a deep desire to bond and connect to to be
deep desire to bond and connect to to be part of something. And if people have to
part of something. And if people have to choose between, you know, I have habits
choose between, you know, I have habits that I don't really love, but I fit in,
that I don't really love, but I fit in, I belong, I'm part of something, I'm
I belong, I'm part of something, I'm supported, or I have the habits that I
supported, or I have the habits that I want to have, but I'm cast out. I'm
want to have, but I'm cast out. I'm ostracized, I'm criticized.
ostracized, I'm criticized. A lot of the time, the desire to belong
A lot of the time, the desire to belong will overpower the desire to improve.
will overpower the desire to improve. And so, as best as possible, you need to
And so, as best as possible, you need to get those two things aligned. Um, and I
get those two things aligned. Um, and I think the way to do it is you want to
think the way to do it is you want to join groups where your desired behavior
join groups where your desired behavior is the normal behavior. Because if your
is the normal behavior. Because if your desired behavior is normal, as you make
desired behavior is normal, as you make friendships and build relationships in
friendships and build relationships in that group, you're going to soak up so
that group, you're going to soak up so many big and little habits from the
many big and little habits from the people that are part of that group. We
people that are part of that group. We all belong to multiple groups or
all belong to multiple groups or multiple tribes. Some of them are large,
multiple tribes. Some of them are large, like what it means to be American or
like what it means to be American or what it means to be French. Some of them
what it means to be French. Some of them are small, like what it means to be a
are small, like what it means to be a neighbor on your street or a member of
neighbor on your street or a member of the local CrossFit gym or a volunteer at
the local CrossFit gym or a volunteer at the elementary school. But all of those
the elementary school. But all of those groups, large and small, have a set of
groups, large and small, have a set of expectations for how you act. You know,
expectations for how you act. You know, like take the neighbor on the street
like take the neighbor on the street example. If I walk outside and look at
example. If I walk outside and look at my neighbor's house and they're mowing
my neighbor's house and they're mowing the lawn, I might think, "Oh, I need to
the lawn, I might think, "Oh, I need to cut the grass, too." And you might stick
cut the grass, too." And you might stick to that habit for 5 years or 10 years,
to that habit for 5 years or 10 years, however long you live in the house.
however long you live in the house. Like, we wish we had that level of
Like, we wish we had that level of consistency with our other habits. And
consistency with our other habits. And why do you do it? Partially you do it
why do you do it? Partially you do it because it feels good to have a clean
because it feels good to have a clean lawn, but mostly you do it because you
lawn, but mostly you do it because you don't want to be the sloppy one who's
don't want to be the sloppy one who's like ruining how the neighborhood looks.
like ruining how the neighborhood looks. So you want to join groups where your
So you want to join groups where your desired habits align with the
desired habits align with the expectations of the group so that you
expectations of the group so that you don't have to run against that friction.
don't have to run against that friction. >> [snorts]
>> [snorts] >> one of the best things that I ever did
>> one of the best things that I ever did in my entrepreneurial career. So, I have
in my entrepreneurial career. So, I have no authors in my family, no
no authors in my family, no entrepreneurs in my family, but I um
entrepreneurs in my family, but I um looked around and I said, "Who are some
looked around and I said, "Who are some other people that are doing the thing
other people that are doing the thing that I want to do, you know, they're
that I want to do, you know, they're like two or three years ahead of me?"
like two or three years ahead of me?" This was like maybe 10 years ago.
This was like maybe 10 years ago. >> And I started hosting these retreats
>> And I started hosting these retreats where I would get other authors
where I would get other authors together, six or eight people, and I
together, six or eight people, and I say, "Let's just split the cost of an
say, "Let's just split the cost of an Airbnb, get together for like two days,
Airbnb, get together for like two days, and we'll talk about how to build an
and we'll talk about how to build an audience and how to write a book and how
audience and how to write a book and how to launch a book." Um, so anyway, the
to launch a book." Um, so anyway, the point being that requires a little bit
point being that requires a little bit of courage, you know, like I I reached
of courage, you know, like I I reached out to people. I was always worried that
out to people. I was always worried that I was going to look like a dummy and,
I was going to look like a dummy and, you know, be like, "You want to go hang
you know, be like, "You want to go hang out for two days?" And everybody be
out for two days?" And everybody be like, "No." You know, but um, but
like, "No." You know, but um, but everybody says yes because they're
everybody says yes because they're waiting for the same thing, which is
waiting for the same thing, which is people want like-minded people to get
people want like-minded people to get together. They're waiting for somebody
together. They're waiting for somebody to gather people together.
to gather people together. >> So, um, sometimes the spaces are ready
>> So, um, sometimes the spaces are ready for you. Sometimes it requires a little
for you. Sometimes it requires a little bit of courage to create it, but the
bit of courage to create it, but the outcome is the same, which is you're
outcome is the same, which is you're trying to put yourself in a room with
trying to put yourself in a room with people who have your desired behaviors.
people who have your desired behaviors. >> James, what are the four stages of
>> James, what are the four stages of building habits?
building habits? >> Well, all habits go through this kind of
>> Well, all habits go through this kind of four-step loop here. I can draw it out.
four-step loop here. I can draw it out. >> Great. So, he's grabbing a quick
>> Great. So, he's grabbing a quick whiteboard if you're listening.
whiteboard if you're listening. >> So, you have these four stages almost
>> So, you have these four stages almost like a a quadrant, but you you start and
like a a quadrant, but you you start and the beginning of it is there's some kind
the beginning of it is there's some kind of Q.
of Q. >> Okay? So, I'll just put a C there for Q.
>> Okay? So, I'll just put a C there for Q. Okay? Right? So you have the Q and that
Okay? Right? So you have the Q and that leads to a craving which then drives a
leads to a craving which then drives a response and then ultimately you get a
response and then ultimately you get a reward and so you kind of go around the
reward and so you kind of go around the loop like this
loop like this >> Q craving response reward Q craving
>> Q craving response reward Q craving response reward and it's true for little
response reward and it's true for little things like let's [snorts] say that you
things like let's [snorts] say that you um walk into a room the room is dark and
um walk into a room the room is dark and you the cue is oh the room's dark I want
you the cue is oh the room's dark I want to be able to see
to be able to see >> the craving is I want to be able to see
>> the craving is I want to be able to see the response is I flip the light switch
the response is I flip the light switch and then the reward is oh now the lights
and then the reward is oh now the lights are on, I can see. Um, but it's true for
are on, I can see. Um, but it's true for other stuff, too. Like the cue might be
other stuff, too. Like the cue might be um you're driving down the road and you
um you're driving down the road and you hear an ambulance come up from behind
hear an ambulance come up from behind you. The siren is an auditory cue. Okay?
you. The siren is an auditory cue. Okay? >> Or your phone buzzes in your pocket.
>> Or your phone buzzes in your pocket. That's a physical cue that starts the
That's a physical cue that starts the habit of checking your phone. Or um you
habit of checking your phone. Or um you see a plate of cookies on the counter in
see a plate of cookies on the counter in the kitchen. That's a visual cue that
the kitchen. That's a visual cue that starts the habit of eating a cookie. So,
starts the habit of eating a cookie. So, you have the queue that leads to the
you have the queue that leads to the craving. Um you hear the s the siren
craving. Um you hear the s the siren from the ambulance. Oh, now I need to
from the ambulance. Oh, now I need to pull to the side of the road. Oh, and
pull to the side of the road. Oh, and the craving is just the impulse to do
the craving is just the impulse to do something.
something. >> The desire, the mo, the the desire to do
>> The desire, the mo, the the desire to do something. So, Q, craving, response,
something. So, Q, craving, response, reward. Um,
reward. Um, >> and you know what's interesting is now
>> and you know what's interesting is now I'm understanding as you're explaining a
I'm understanding as you're explaining a habit
habit >> is that you're not even really thinking
>> is that you're not even really thinking about those things. They're just all
about those things. They're just all kind of sandwiched together in that loop
kind of sandwiched together in that loop you just drew.
you just drew. >> It can happen almost instantaneously,
>> It can happen almost instantaneously, like all inside of a whole second, you
like all inside of a whole second, you know, like it's but it it's very rapid
know, like it's but it it's very rapid and it's um once a habit is established,
and it's um once a habit is established, it's almost entirely non-concious. How
it's almost entirely non-concious. How does that connect to the four laws that
does that connect to the four laws that you created around behavior change?
you created around behavior change? >> So, we have this scientific backbone,
>> So, we have this scientific backbone, these four stages, Q, craving, response,
these four stages, Q, craving, response, reward. And we know that our behaviors
reward. And we know that our behaviors are going through that cycle each day.
are going through that cycle each day. And what I care about is how do I
And what I care about is how do I operationalize that? How do I translate
operationalize that? How do I translate this into something actionable for daily
this into something actionable for daily life and work? And so, that's why I came
life and work? And so, that's why I came up with what I call the four laws of
up with what I call the four laws of behavior change.
behavior change. >> All right. Well, let's go into the four
>> All right. Well, let's go into the four laws.
laws. >> So, the first law is to make it obvious.
>> So, the first law is to make it obvious. You want the cues of your habits to be
You want the cues of your habits to be obvious, available, visible, easy to
obvious, available, visible, easy to see. The easier it is for a habit to be
see. The easier it is for a habit to be noticed and for it to get your
noticed and for it to get your attention, the more likely are to act on
attention, the more likely are to act on it. The second law is to make it
it. The second law is to make it attractive. So, this comes back to that
attractive. So, this comes back to that question we asked earlier about what
question we asked earlier about what would this look like if it was fun.
would this look like if it was fun. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> The more fun, the more engaging, the
>> The more fun, the more engaging, the more um motivating or enticing a habit
more um motivating or enticing a habit is, the more likely you are to follow
is, the more likely you are to follow through on it. All right. So, make it
through on it. All right. So, make it attractive. The third law is to make it
attractive. The third law is to make it easy. The easier, more convenient,
easy. The easier, more convenient, frictionless, simple a habit is, the
frictionless, simple a habit is, the more likely it is to be performed. And
more likely it is to be performed. And the fourth and final law is to make it
the fourth and final law is to make it satisfying. So the more satisfying or
satisfying. So the more satisfying or enjoyable a habit is, the more rewarding
enjoyable a habit is, the more rewarding or pleasurable it is, the more likely
or pleasurable it is, the more likely you are to feel compelled to do it. The
you are to feel compelled to do it. The first three laws, make it obvious, make
first three laws, make it obvious, make it attractive, make it easy. Those three
it attractive, make it easy. Those three are about priming you to get started.
are about priming you to get started. They're about making it easy to get into
They're about making it easy to get into the habit this time. The fourth law,
the habit this time. The fourth law, make it satisfying. That like closes the
make it satisfying. That like closes the feedback loop. The behavior's already
feedback loop. The behavior's already happened at that point, but the reward
happened at that point, but the reward is important because it helps you feel
is important because it helps you feel good
good >> and that gets you to show up again the
>> and that gets you to show up again the next time. Make it obvious, make it
next time. Make it obvious, make it attractive, make it easy, make it
attractive, make it easy, make it satisfying.
satisfying. >> If you're trying to build a new habit,
>> If you're trying to build a new habit, if you're sitting there and you're
if you're sitting there and you're thinking, you know, I have
thinking, you know, I have >> this habit that I want to do, but I keep
>> this habit that I want to do, but I keep procrastinating on it.
procrastinating on it. >> Let's take let's take exercising since
>> Let's take let's take exercising since that's the number one thing people want
that's the number one thing people want to do.
to do. I wish I could get to the gym, but I
I wish I could get to the gym, but I just haven't been doing that. You can
just haven't been doing that. You can just go through these four laws and ask
just go through these four laws and ask yourself, how can I make the habit more
yourself, how can I make the habit more obvious? How can I make it more
obvious? How can I make it more attractive? How can I make it easier?
attractive? How can I make it easier? How can I make it more satisfying? And
How can I make it more satisfying? And the answers to those four questions will
the answers to those four questions will reveal different steps that you can
reveal different steps that you can take. They're naturally going to
take. They're naturally going to generate answers for things that you
generate answers for things that you could do. They're kind of like levers.
could do. They're kind of like levers. And when the levers are in the right
And when the levers are in the right positions, building habits is easier.
positions, building habits is easier. And when they're in the wrong positions,
And when they're in the wrong positions, building habits is harder.
building habits is harder. Um, I want to see if this example maps
Um, I want to see if this example maps to those four steps and it's related to
to those four steps and it's related to making exercise stick. So, making it
making exercise stick. So, making it obvious, one of the things that I did
obvious, one of the things that I did that made a difference is laying my
that made a difference is laying my clothes out the night before so that
clothes out the night before so that when I wake up in the morning, I see the
when I wake up in the morning, I see the clothes and that's the cue.
clothes and that's the cue. >> Yep.
>> Yep. >> Uh-oh. I said I would exercise today. I
>> Uh-oh. I said I would exercise today. I make it attractive by saying I'm going
make it attractive by saying I'm going to go somewhere outside my house like to
to go somewhere outside my house like to a yoga studio or something.
a yoga studio or something. >> I think it's what you did earlier. What
>> I think it's what you did earlier. What didn't you say? You didn't like working
didn't you say? You didn't like working out on your own, but you do like a
out on your own, but you do like a class. Yes.
class. Yes. >> So, it's it's choosing a version of that
>> So, it's it's choosing a version of that habit that is fun and attractive to you.
habit that is fun and attractive to you. A class is more attractive.
A class is more attractive. >> The third one is I picked it the night
>> The third one is I picked it the night before.
before. >> So, now it's easy to know. I don't have
>> So, now it's easy to know. I don't have to stop and think. I don't have to look
to stop and think. I don't have to look at a schedule. I don't have to fit it in
at a schedule. I don't have to fit it in cuz I made it easy because I picked it
cuz I made it easy because I picked it the night before and satisfying. There's
the night before and satisfying. There's a coffee shop next door that makes a
a coffee shop next door that makes a great ice latte
great ice latte >> and I
>> and I have it when
have it when >> that's when that's your reward for when
>> that's when that's your reward for when you get done.
you get done. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> So, yeah, I think it definitely maps and
>> So, yeah, I think it definitely maps and you can imagine lots of versions of
you can imagine lots of versions of this. I do think the obvious piece is
this. I do think the obvious piece is often about knowing exactly when you're
often about knowing exactly when you're going to go or setting your clothes out
going to go or setting your clothes out the night before or having, you know,
the night before or having, you know, there's some kind of obvious element in
there's some kind of obvious element in your environment there. The attractive
your environment there. The attractive piece is usually choosing a version of
piece is usually choosing a version of exercise that you're really excited
exercise that you're really excited about. The easy piece, I think, can
about. The easy piece, I think, can often be about scaling it down. So, make
often be about scaling it down. So, make it 10 minute or take 10 push-ups instead
it 10 minute or take 10 push-ups instead of the other one.
of the other one. >> Exactly. Rather than an hour, it can be
>> Exactly. Rather than an hour, it can be for 10 minutes or whatever. It's, you
for 10 minutes or whatever. It's, you know, scaling down the the scope of it.
know, scaling down the the scope of it. And if you can do more, great. Go ahead
And if you can do more, great. Go ahead and do more. But you're what you
and do more. But you're what you consider a success is the smaller
consider a success is the smaller version. Um, and then the reward in the
version. Um, and then the reward in the beginning, a lot of the time I think it
beginning, a lot of the time I think it looks like what you just described,
looks like what you just described, which is it's the latte or it's the, you
which is it's the latte or it's the, you know, whatever the thing is.
know, whatever the thing is. >> I actually crave it as I'm driving to
>> I actually crave it as I'm driving to the yoga studio. I'm not thinking about
the yoga studio. I'm not thinking about getting on the mat. I'm like, "Oo, I get
getting on the mat. I'm like, "Oo, I get a latte after."
a latte after." >> Sure. Which is great. Um, in the long
>> Sure. Which is great. Um, in the long run, sometimes takes a decade or more.
run, sometimes takes a decade or more. It can become the reinforcement of the
It can become the reinforcement of the identity that you want to have. So, for
identity that you want to have. So, for me, I I work out now because I Yeah. I
me, I I work out now because I Yeah. I like the results everybody else wants,
like the results everybody else wants, right? Like you want to look good and
right? Like you want to look good and stay fit and be able to move when you're
stay fit and be able to move when you're 70 and you know all that stuff. Um, but
70 and you know all that stuff. Um, but I also do it because I like who I am
I also do it because I like who I am when I'm doing it.
when I'm doing it. >> Steven Presfield has this concept where
>> Steven Presfield has this concept where he says, uh, he's talking about writing,
he says, uh, he's talking about writing, but he says in the beginning you start
but he says in the beginning you start creating and you feel kind of like an
creating and you feel kind of like an imposttor. You sit down to write. It's
imposttor. You sit down to write. It's kind of hard. It's difficult. You don't
kind of hard. It's difficult. You don't really feel like you fit. Um, [snorts]
really feel like you fit. Um, [snorts] but a wolf has its territory. And the
but a wolf has its territory. And the way that it becomes its territory is by
way that it becomes its territory is by walking it, by showing up every day, by
walking it, by showing up every day, by being there. And it's not its territory
being there. And it's not its territory the first day, but eventually after it's
the first day, but eventually after it's been there for a while, it starts to
been there for a while, it starts to feel like home. And all of your habits
feel like home. And all of your habits are kind of like that, too. You know,
are kind of like that, too. You know, the first day you go to the gym, you
the first day you go to the gym, you feel kind of stupid and foolish. You're
feel kind of stupid and foolish. You're like, are people, you know, looking at
like, are people, you know, looking at me? Am I doing this the wrong way? You
me? Am I doing this the wrong way? You feel out of place. You go for 6 months
feel out of place. You go for 6 months or a year, you start to get a little bit
or a year, you start to get a little bit more comfortable. maybe it still doesn't
more comfortable. maybe it still doesn't feel like home yet. Turn around 2 or 3
feel like home yet. Turn around 2 or 3 or 5 years later and you're like, "This
or 5 years later and you're like, "This is just part of what I do. This is my
is just part of what I do. This is my territory now." And the only way you
territory now." And the only way you develop that level of comfort is by
develop that level of comfort is by being willing to go through a little bit
being willing to go through a little bit of discomfort early on. You know, like
of discomfort early on. You know, like sometimes I try to remind myself, am I
sometimes I try to remind myself, am I willing to look foolish for 5 minutes or
willing to look foolish for 5 minutes or am I willing to be uncomfortable for
am I willing to be uncomfortable for five minutes? That's really all you're
five minutes? That's really all you're talking about. My So I I've been working
talking about. My So I I've been working with a trainer recently and he told me
with a trainer recently and he told me this story. He was teaching a class in
this story. He was teaching a class in the morning and it was a bad weather
the morning and it was a bad weather day. There was it was just rainy and
day. There was it was just rainy and really gross. It was kind of cold and
really gross. It was kind of cold and just gray. It was just kind of nasty.
just gray. It was just kind of nasty. >> And he was supposed to have eight people
>> And he was supposed to have eight people in his class and he showed up and only
in his class and he showed up and only two were there. And I we were talking
two were there. And I we were talking about I I think that's kind of
about I I think that's kind of interesting, you know, because the
interesting, you know, because the workout's indoors, right? The workout
workout's indoors, right? The workout once you get to the gym, the workout's
once you get to the gym, the workout's the same as it always is. Um it's no
the same as it always is. Um it's no different as is when it's sunny and the
different as is when it's sunny and the sky is blue.
sky is blue. >> True. But what you really notice there
>> True. But what you really notice there is just how little bit of an edge you
is just how little bit of an edge you need to gain an advantage um or to to
need to gain an advantage um or to to have a different outcome than most
have a different outcome than most people. Six of those eight people didn't
people. Six of those eight people didn't show up. Not because of the workout. The
show up. Not because of the workout. The workout's the same as always. It's
workout's the same as always. It's because they didn't want to be
because they didn't want to be uncomfortable for like 5 or 10 minutes
uncomfortable for like 5 or 10 minutes getting ready, getting through the rain,
getting ready, getting through the rain, getting in the car. It was just kind of
getting in the car. It was just kind of gross enough that it let them ignore it.
gross enough that it let them ignore it. >> Yeah. Um, and so
>> Yeah. Um, and so in a lot of ways, what this all boils
in a lot of ways, what this all boils down to is getting started. It's being,
down to is getting started. It's being, are you willing to get started? Are you
are you willing to get started? Are you willing to be uncomfortable for 3
willing to be uncomfortable for 3 minutes? And if you can get over that
minutes? And if you can get over that hump, then the rest of it kind of
hump, then the rest of it kind of cascades naturally.
cascades naturally. >> You write about the two-minute rule.
>> You write about the two-minute rule. What is that?
What is that? >> It's a really easy way to um force
>> It's a really easy way to um force yourself to get started. I hope that you
yourself to get started. I hope that you find all the ideas interesting and
find all the ideas interesting and useful that we talked about today. But
useful that we talked about today. But if you can only remember one thing, the
if you can only remember one thing, the two-minute rule is a good thing to
two-minute rule is a good thing to remember. And I say that because it can
remember. And I say that because it can be applied to pretty much any habit. So
be applied to pretty much any habit. So you take whatever habit you're trying to
you take whatever habit you're trying to build and you scale it down to something
build and you scale it down to something that takes 2 minutes or less to do.
that takes 2 minutes or less to do. >> So
>> So meditation.
meditation. >> Yeah. Meditate um meditate for 20
>> Yeah. Meditate um meditate for 20 minutes becomes becomes meditate for one
minutes becomes becomes meditate for one minute. Uh read 30 books a year becomes
minute. Uh read 30 books a year becomes read one page. do yoga four days a week
read one page. do yoga four days a week becomes take out my yoga mat. And
becomes take out my yoga mat. And sometimes when I tell people this, they
sometimes when I tell people this, they resist it a little bit. They're like,
resist it a little bit. They're like, "Okay, buddy." You know, I know the real
"Okay, buddy." You know, I know the real goal isn't just to take my yoga mat out.
goal isn't just to take my yoga mat out. I know I'm actually trying to do the
I know I'm actually trying to do the workout, you know? So, you're like,
workout, you know? So, you're like, "Okay, if I know it's a trick, and why
"Okay, if I know it's a trick, and why would I fall for it?" Basically,
would I fall for it?" Basically, >> but there's this great quote from Ed
>> but there's this great quote from Ed Latimore where he says, "The heaviest
Latimore where he says, "The heaviest weight at the gym is the front door."
weight at the gym is the front door." And man, there are a lot of things in
And man, there are a lot of things in life that are like that. You know, the
life that are like that. You know, the hardest action is the first movement.
hardest action is the first movement. The most difficult step is the first
The most difficult step is the first one. And once getting when you're in the
one. And once getting when you're in the work, once you've already started, it's
work, once you've already started, it's often easier to keep going. Um, it's
often easier to keep going. Um, it's starting the work that is the hard part.
starting the work that is the hard part. All the friction is at the beginning.
All the friction is at the beginning. There's this concept in physics,
There's this concept in physics, coefficient of friction. The friction is
coefficient of friction. The friction is highest when you're not moving. It's
highest when you're not moving. It's once you're moving that things start to
once you're moving that things start to go a little bit easier. Momentum works
go a little bit easier. Momentum works in both ways. You know, like if you sit
in both ways. You know, like if you sit on the couch and you ruminate on, you
on the couch and you ruminate on, you know, how things aren't going well in
know, how things aren't going well in your life, you feel kind of lethargic.
your life, you feel kind of lethargic. Like that's easy to be low energy and
Like that's easy to be low energy and for things to not go well right then.
for things to not go well right then. But you start moving a little bit. Even
But you start moving a little bit. Even it's just stretch on the floor for 5
it's just stretch on the floor for 5 minutes. Now you start to move forward
minutes. Now you start to move forward and things go, you know, go a little bit
and things go, you know, go a little bit faster.
faster. >> You know, speaking of friction, there's
>> You know, speaking of friction, there's a concept that is floating around called
a concept that is floating around called habit stacking. What is that?
habit stacking. What is that? >> Habit stacking. I think habit stacking
>> Habit stacking. I think habit stacking is a great um approach for building
is a great um approach for building habits. It's a concept that comes from
habits. It's a concept that comes from BJ Fog. He's a professor at Stanford and
BJ Fog. He's a professor at Stanford and he had a great insight which is [snorts]
he had a great insight which is [snorts] habits tend to be easier to build or
habits tend to be easier to build or stick to if they're tied to a behavior
stick to if they're tied to a behavior that you're already doing. So we all
that you're already doing. So we all have habits that we already do. Okay?
have habits that we already do. Okay? Like maybe you already make a cup of
Like maybe you already make a cup of coffee every morning.
coffee every morning. >> Yep.
>> Yep. >> And your new habit that you want to
>> And your new habit that you want to build is you want to start meditating.
build is you want to start meditating. So you can stack that new habit on top
So you can stack that new habit on top of the old one. So your habit stack
of the old one. So your habit stack could be something like after I make my
could be something like after I make my morning cup of coffee, I will meditate
morning cup of coffee, I will meditate for 60 seconds. And then you know you
for 60 seconds. And then you know you can start to chain this together. You
can start to chain this together. You could like create multiples. So you
could like create multiples. So you could say after I make my cup of coffee,
could say after I make my cup of coffee, I will meditate for 60 seconds. After I
I will meditate for 60 seconds. After I meditate for 60 seconds, I will write my
meditate for 60 seconds, I will write my to-do list for the day. After I write my
to-do list for the day. After I write my to-do list for the day, I will
to-do list for the day, I will prioritize them and start working on the
prioritize them and start working on the first one or whatever. And now you've
first one or whatever. And now you've got a little stack, a little package of
got a little stack, a little package of behaviors that happens the same way
behaviors that happens the same way every time. And you do it each morning.
every time. And you do it each morning. And uh from talking with a lot of
And uh from talking with a lot of readers, people like to use these at
readers, people like to use these at certain moments throughout their day.
certain moments throughout their day. People like habit stacks in the morning.
People like habit stacks in the morning. I have a lot of readers who they'll come
I have a lot of readers who they'll come up with one for what they do when they
up with one for what they do when they get into the office. They'll be like, I
get into the office. They'll be like, I go into the office, I hang up my jacket,
go into the office, I hang up my jacket, I set my purse on the desk, I take my
I set my purse on the desk, I take my water bottle, and I fill it up. And then
water bottle, and I fill it up. And then I sit down and I answer the first email.
I sit down and I answer the first email. And I always do it in the same order.
And I always do it in the same order. And that like helps me get into the day,
And that like helps me get into the day, and I just know exactly what I'm going
and I just know exactly what I'm going to do when I get there. Um, sometimes
to do when I get there. Um, sometimes you'll see people have one like a power
you'll see people have one like a power down routine at the end of the day, uh,
down routine at the end of the day, uh, to kind of help them, you know, wrap the
to kind of help them, you know, wrap the day up and get ready for bed and
day up and get ready for bed and whatever. So, you can use it anywhere.
whatever. So, you can use it anywhere. Um, I have some readers who have come up
Um, I have some readers who have come up with very creative ones. I had one guy
with very creative ones. I had one guy who was he was such a bro and really
who was he was such a bro and really liked going to the gym and um, he was
liked going to the gym and um, he was not managing his finances well and so
not managing his finances well and so his new habit stack was whenever I drink
his new habit stack was whenever I drink a protein shake, I will check my
a protein shake, I will check my finances. Um, and it just it happened
finances. Um, and it just it happened frequently enough that it would force
frequently enough that it would force him to check in on his budget and stay
him to check in on his budget and stay more on top of it. Um, so you can do you
more on top of it. Um, so you can do you can do strange ones like that. You have
can do strange ones like that. You have to be willing to experiment.
to be willing to experiment. >> Um, you know, I atomic habits I I've
>> Um, you know, I atomic habits I I've tried to lay everything out that I can
tried to lay everything out that I can like I wanted it I I don't know whether
like I wanted it I I don't know whether I reached or not but my objective when I
I reached or not but my objective when I was writing was I want to write the
was writing was I want to write the single best book that's ever been
single best book that's ever been written about habits. But even so, even
written about habits. But even so, even if in some magical world I achieve that
if in some magical world I achieve that outcome, you as an individual still have
outcome, you as an individual still have to be willing to experiment because what
to be willing to experiment because what matters is does it work for your life,
matters is does it work for your life, you know? And so you got to maybe you
you know? And so you got to maybe you need to rearrange the habit stack. Maybe
need to rearrange the habit stack. Maybe you need to change when you're inserting
you need to change when you're inserting things. You know, for one person,
things. You know, for one person, putting the uh meditating right after a
putting the uh meditating right after a cup of coffee makes a lot of sense. If
cup of coffee makes a lot of sense. If you have three toddlers and you're
you have three toddlers and you're trying to get pants on your
trying to get pants on your four-year-old, that's not a good time to
four-year-old, that's not a good time to meditate, you know? So you need to find
meditate, you know? So you need to find the right time of day to insert um your
the right time of day to insert um your habits and behaviors and that requires a
habits and behaviors and that requires a little bit of experimentation.
little bit of experimentation. >> So for somebody who has a a goal that's
>> So for somebody who has a a goal that's really big, whether it's I want to write
really big, whether it's I want to write a novel, I want to start a business, I
a novel, I want to start a business, I want to take on a big project, and
want to take on a big project, and they're clear about that. What would you
they're clear about that. What would you recommend is the one habit to build
recommend is the one habit to build first since that's such a big goal out
first since that's such a big goal out there?
there? >> Interestingly, I would so I'd say
>> Interestingly, I would so I'd say there's probably two things to focus on
there's probably two things to focus on first. The first is you probably need a
first. The first is you probably need a habit of reflection and review.
habit of reflection and review. >> What does that mean?
>> What does that mean? >> Well,
>> Well, what are the odds that if you keep your
what are the odds that if you keep your head down and you work really hard that
head down and you work really hard that you're going to be working on the hard
you're going to be working on the hard the highest and best thing? it's just so
the highest and best thing? it's just so unlikely that out of all the things that
unlikely that out of all the things that you could be doing that you're working
you could be doing that you're working on the best thing right now. And so it
on the best thing right now. And so it it's this interesting tension because on
it's this interesting tension because on the one hand having a great work ethic
the one hand having a great work ethic and working hard is really valuable in
and working hard is really valuable in life. And um it does pay off in some
life. And um it does pay off in some sense like you can't get results without
sense like you can't get results without working on things. [snorts] But it can
working on things. [snorts] But it can also become a crutch where if you like
also become a crutch where if you like for myself a lot of the time I I know
for myself a lot of the time I I know for many years like if I had a problem
for many years like if I had a problem my solution was I'll just work my way
my solution was I'll just work my way out of it. And uh that works for a
out of it. And uh that works for a little while, but at some point it
little while, but at some point it breaks, you know, like you break
breaks, you know, like you break yourself down and then also you can only
yourself down and then also you can only work so much. Like you maybe if you
work so much. Like you maybe if you really grinded you could work 10% harder
really grinded you could work 10% harder than you are right now, but you can't
than you are right now, but you can't work 100% harder or like 100x harder.
work 100% harder or like 100x harder. It's not possible. Yeah.
It's not possible. Yeah. >> Um but you could work on something else
>> Um but you could work on something else that gets you 100x the result if you're
that gets you 100x the result if you're working on the right thing. Um and so
working on the right thing. Um and so for any project, you know, this
for any project, you know, this hypothetical question that you asked is
hypothetical question that you asked is what if I have this big goal? I have a
what if I have this big goal? I have a business I want to launch. I have, you
business I want to launch. I have, you know, an initiative I want to start. I
know, an initiative I want to start. I have, you know, whatever. Um,
have, you know, whatever. Um, there's going to be many ways to do it.
there's going to be many ways to do it. And you need to have at least some time
And you need to have at least some time to sit and think each week and come back
to sit and think each week and come back to saying, are we doing this the right
to saying, are we doing this the right way? You know, if we I think if you if
way? You know, if we I think if you if you have two things in life, if you have
you have two things in life, if you have a bias toward action and you really move
a bias toward action and you really move fast
fast >> and you continually revisit this
>> and you continually revisit this question of what are we really trying to
question of what are we really trying to do here and is this the best way to do
do here and is this the best way to do it? If you can do those two things and
it? If you can do those two things and you just keep doing them on repeat, you
you just keep doing them on repeat, you can really get a lot done in life. But
can really get a lot done in life. But but you need both. Um and so that that's
but you need both. Um and so that that's the second thing I was going to mention
the second thing I was going to mention is uh this bias toward action. It's
is uh this bias toward action. It's getting started. It's finding some small
getting started. It's finding some small way to move. Now um my little saying
way to move. Now um my little saying that I try to remind myself of is don't
that I try to remind myself of is don't rush but don't wait.
rush but don't wait. >> You know, I find that if I am in the
>> You know, I find that if I am in the mix, if I'm taking action, if I'm
mix, if I'm taking action, if I'm working on things, then that's great. I
working on things, then that's great. I need to be patient. I need to let the
need to be patient. I need to let the results accumulate. But if I'm not
results accumulate. But if I'm not actually taking action, I'm not being
actually taking action, I'm not being patient. I'm just waiting and uh
patient. I'm just waiting and uh nothing's going to happen in that case.
nothing's going to happen in that case. So both thinking big picture, what are
So both thinking big picture, what are we really trying to do here? And is this
we really trying to do here? And is this the best way to accomplish it? And then
the best way to accomplish it? And then having a bias toward action and moving
having a bias toward action and moving fast. Those two things work really well
fast. Those two things work really well together.
together. >> Amazing advice. You know, one of the
>> Amazing advice. You know, one of the things you said at the very beginning is
things you said at the very beginning is that the secret to winning is knowing
that the secret to winning is knowing how to lose.
how to lose. What do you do? And how do you pick
What do you do? And how do you pick yourself back up if you've had a little
yourself back up if you've had a little bit of a good streak and then you don't
bit of a good streak and then you don't go to the gym or you don't write or you
go to the gym or you don't write or you start to drink again? Like those like
start to drink again? Like those like how do you start the engine up again?
how do you start the engine up again? And what's the mistake you see people
And what's the mistake you see people making?
making? >> So I try to keep this little mantra in
>> So I try to keep this little mantra in mind which is never miss twice. And so
mind which is never miss twice. And so you know maybe I show up and I you know
you know maybe I show up and I you know do the right thing. I've been writing
do the right thing. I've been writing for six days in a row and then the
for six days in a row and then the seventh day I miss. Well, you know, I
seventh day I miss. Well, you know, I wish I hadn't missed, but that's okay.
wish I hadn't missed, but that's okay. Let me pour all my energy into getting
Let me pour all my energy into getting back on track the next day. And what you
back on track the next day. And what you realize is that at the end of the year,
realize is that at the end of the year, those mistakes are just like a little
those mistakes are just like a little blip on the radar. But that's only true
blip on the radar. But that's only true if you never miss twice. It's only true
if you never miss twice. It's only true if you get back on track quickly. And I
if you get back on track quickly. And I think you see this in many domains,
think you see this in many domains, which is the top performers have this
which is the top performers have this interesting quality. They're all human.
interesting quality. They're all human. They all make mistakes like everybody
They all make mistakes like everybody else. But the thing that they share is
else. But the thing that they share is they tend to get back on track quickly.
they tend to get back on track quickly. >> And [snorts] if the reclaiming of a
>> And [snorts] if the reclaiming of a habit is fast, the breaking of it
habit is fast, the breaking of it doesn't matter that much. But it's it's
doesn't matter that much. But it's it's all about getting back on track that
all about getting back on track that matters. So it's again, it's this
matters. So it's again, it's this concept of bouncing back from a loss
concept of bouncing back from a loss that um that is really critical.
that um that is really critical. >> James Clear, what are your parting
>> James Clear, what are your parting words?
words? >> No matter what the habit is that you're
>> No matter what the habit is that you're trying to build, it's easy to talk
trying to build, it's easy to talk yourself out of it because you know that
yourself out of it because you know that the results aren't going to be good
the results aren't going to be good right away. But like your favorite
right away. But like your favorite athletes first workout was just as bad
athletes first workout was just as bad as yours. You know, your favorite chef's
as yours. You know, your favorite chef's first meal was just as bad as yours.
first meal was just as bad as yours. Your favorite writer's first sentence
Your favorite writer's first sentence was just as bad as yours. You need to
was just as bad as yours. You need to keep going. You need to do the early low
keep going. You need to do the early low stakes stuff to prepare for the high
stakes stuff to prepare for the high stakes stuff to to build the capacity
stakes stuff to to build the capacity and the ability to do the other things.
and the ability to do the other things. And so don't overlook the small moments
And so don't overlook the small moments that you have each day. you every day
that you have each day. you every day has an opportunity built into it. You
has an opportunity built into it. You know, whatever whatever age you are
know, whatever whatever age you are right now, your future self would love
right now, your future self would love to be it. When you're 70, you would give
to be it. When you're 70, you would give anything to go back and be 60 again and
anything to go back and be 60 again and have the opportunity of those next 10
have the opportunity of those next 10 years. And you should use that as best
years. And you should use that as best as you can. And whether that's a small
as you can. And whether that's a small moment like a little dance recital or
moment like a little dance recital or some stupid little speech that you're
some stupid little speech that you're going to give to your friends or
going to give to your friends or whatever it is, try to do it well. You
whatever it is, try to do it well. You know, whatever thing that you have in
know, whatever thing that you have in front of you, try to do it well. If you
front of you, try to do it well. If you do it well, if you take advantage of the
do it well, if you take advantage of the moment that you have, you earn the right
moment that you have, you earn the right to do more things, you um prove to
to do more things, you um prove to yourself that you have high standards
yourself that you have high standards and that you take advantage of the
and that you take advantage of the opportunities that are in front of you
opportunities that are in front of you and you put yourself in a better
and you put yourself in a better position to gain more opportunities. We
position to gain more opportunities. We all have varying degrees of luck or
all have varying degrees of luck or circumstances or misfortune or whatever
circumstances or misfortune or whatever that come to us in life. a lot of things
that come to us in life. a lot of things that we ask for and a lot of things that
that we ask for and a lot of things that we don't ask for. But all you can do is
we don't ask for. But all you can do is try to use the moments that you have to
try to use the moments that you have to the best of your ability. And the better
the best of your ability. And the better you do that, the better positioned you
you do that, the better positioned you are to not only build good habits, but
are to not only build good habits, but have a good life.
have a good life. >> James Clear, I I don't even have words.
>> James Clear, I I don't even have words. I am so proud of you. I am so grateful
I am so proud of you. I am so grateful for the work that you do.
for the work that you do. >> Thank you so much, Mel. I appreciate it.
>> Thank you so much, Mel. I appreciate it. It's great to have you as a fan and as a
It's great to have you as a fan and as a supporter of the work. And um yeah, I
supporter of the work. And um yeah, I hope the audience loves it, too.
hope the audience loves it, too. >> I'm sure they will. And I also want to
>> I'm sure they will. And I also want to thank you for finding time and making
thank you for finding time and making time to listen to this episode in
time to listen to this episode in particular and to share it with people
particular and to share it with people that you care about. The amount of
that you care about. The amount of takeaways, the amount of just advice and
takeaways, the amount of just advice and tools that James just gave you, I want
tools that James just gave you, I want you to ask that question, who do I want
you to ask that question, who do I want to become? And then I want you to follow
to become? And then I want you to follow every single thing he told you because
every single thing he told you because it will work. I'm going to keep
it will work. I'm going to keep listening to this. I'm going to share
listening to this. I'm going to share this with all three of my adult kids and
this with all three of my adult kids and our entire team. This is one of the best
our entire team. This is one of the best episodes we ever done. So, I'm
episodes we ever done. So, I'm absolutely thrilled that you were here.
absolutely thrilled that you were here. And in case no one else tells you, I
And in case no one else tells you, I wanted to be sure to tell you as your
wanted to be sure to tell you as your friend that I love you and I believe in
friend that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to
you and I believe in your ability to create a better life because James Clear
create a better life because James Clear just gave you the road map for how you
just gave you the road map for how you [laughter] do it. So, go do it. And I'll
[laughter] do it. So, go do it. And I'll be waiting to welcome you in to the very
be waiting to welcome you in to the very next episode the moment you hit play.
next episode the moment you hit play. I'll see you there. And thank you for
I'll see you there. And thank you for watching all the way to the end here on
watching all the way to the end here on YouTube. I love that. I love that. And
YouTube. I love that. I love that. And thank you, by the way, for hitting
thank you, by the way, for hitting [music] subscribe. If it's lit up, it
[music] subscribe. If it's lit up, it means you're not subscribed. Just take a
means you're not subscribed. Just take a second, hit that. It's free. It's a way
second, hit that. It's free. It's a way that you can say, "Hey, thanks, Mel.
that you can say, "Hey, thanks, Mel. Thanks for showing up here and doing
Thanks for showing up here and doing your best to support me in creating a
your best to support me in creating a better life." And that way, by the way,
better life." And that way, by the way, if you're a subscriber, you're not going
if you're a subscriber, you're not going to miss a thing. Okay, we just dug into
to miss a thing. Okay, we just dug into habits. So, you're probably thinking,
habits. So, you're probably thinking, Mel, what should I watch next? Oh,
Mel, what should I watch next? Oh, you're going to love this one. and I'll
you're going to love this one. and I'll welcome you in the moment you hit
welcome you in the moment you hit [music] play.
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