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How Does CANADA feel aboot the 51st State? | @BennJordan @cjthex | Bridges #40
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How did it feel to hear a
serious threat talk conversation about
Canada becoming a state? A lot of my
family at home is like, "Honestly, if we
could vote, I'd probably vote for it."
And I'm like, "Well, you won't get your
universal healthcare." He's trying to
bring imperialism back. Like, that's the
thing, right? That's the thing. He likes
the idea he could acquire more land.
He's just trying to normalize. So,
Canada, Greenland, he's like, "That's
great, right?" So, of course, he's going
to be on the side of like, you know,
blowing out the Gaza Strip and just
building. He's like, he wants
imperialism to be back because he's a
monarch. When I heard that ridiculous
rhetoric of like, well, we'll just make
Canada a state, it it was like part of
me was like more libertarian. Part of me
Artist community is so disconnected from
the fighter community that they can't
even conceptualize what these people are
like. Like they they probably view them
as like very conservative, very bigoted.
Just like swastikas in the next They see
Jake Shields and they're just like that
must be what MMA is. Even though Jake
Shields I think is you could correct me.
I think a lot of people in MMA are not
super impressed with Jake Shields and
his like rhetoric or anything like that.
He hasn't fought in a really long time.
And then I know that he kind of went
crazy QAnon and then although hasn't he
kind of leveled out a little bit? Like
isn't he kind of a little bit more like
doesn't he say things that really pisses
the right off too? Like is he kind of
like keeping his head Jews so so much?
Oh, okay. So he he hates Trump because
Trump doesn't hate Israel enough. I got
it. Yeah. So he's more cozing up with
like the Nazi side. Yeah. Then maybe I'm
doing the exact same thing you're
talking about where I'm just like
labeling it as well. Yeah. And it's
funny cuz like he he's like good friends
with Nate Diaz and that's who that is.
Nate Diaz is like the guy who beat up co
like so there's this wonderful lore of
uh like another great thing about
fighting like Conor McGregor is on top
of the world. He's like pissing
everybody off. He's saying racist
things. Uh he has this fight for the uh
lightweight championship that was like,
you know, everybody's looking forward to
it for like a year and then the the
fighter got injured in training and
canceled literally like a week and a
half before the fight. And they bring in
Nate Diaz who is just like a fan
favorite. He didn't he's never won a
championship. He's never been like the
number one fighter. He's always just
been like But he's like super legit.
He's super funny cuz he's just weird.
He's like extremely I mean I look at him
and and I just see somebody who's like
always uncomfortable in interviews.
Always like just wants to fight because
he just that's what he does and and then
he just wants to go smoke weed and like
you know do cardio. Um and yeah and he
ends up upsetting like on a week's
notice ends up upsetting Conor McGregor
and like and choking him out and like
and it was you know the whole fight
world was just like what just happened?
But yeah, him hanging out with Jake
Shields, like the two personalities are
just very you can't really imagine it
being. But again, reason I even bring
this up is because I think that when you
when you're talking about the salt of
the earth thing with with combat sports,
I I think that like if if you're to go
into an MMA gym or to a jiu-jitsu gym or
something like that, if you're to have
that sort of like masculine bully
attitude, like you're gonna you're going
to be humbled immediately and you're
going to find out exactly like how far
that gets you. And then you know you
either have the choice of not going back
and you know okay well that was my free
trial and let's not talk about this
again or you'll be like okay well what
did I do wrong and and then you'll work
your way up and in that it it provides I
mean because really it's a lot of
failure figuring out what you did wrong
and and you're doing and then you know
correcting it and then doing better next
time and you do that over the course of
years while experiencing physical
adversity that you were initially
uncomfortable with and now you learn how
to calm down and you and and it's it's a
really good vehicle for a lot of people
to just learn how to live their life.
Some of my uh some a lot of people who
are in addiction, a lot of them go into
combat sports as a way of kind of
achieving sobriety. Um because it some
at some neurochemical level, I think
it's especially highly relapsone
individuals. So, it's a much more
biochemical issue that's going on for
them. combat sports and like fitness in
general, but especially combat sports. I
I think I have like five clients um that
all do like boxing now, right? Um Yeah.
Right. Especially if they're if they're
competing I mean all of a sudden the tax
for going on a binge is like way high.
Like not only not only is it going to
hurt really bad when you get knocked
out, but it's going to it's going to be
embarrassing and it's going to like
screw up everything everything that you
work so hard for. Although I suppose
that that is why people do get like I
feel like a lot of addiction is people
trying to just destroy what they destroy
what they work for. But yeah, I think
it's mostly the the dopamine balance.
Like one of the best things you can do
when people are withdrawing for example
is like get them outside and get them
exercising so they get some oxytocin
because they're not making much of that
when they're detoxing.
Um this is not a good segue, but I
actually I wanted to tie in. You were
talking a little bit about um like the
salt of the earth people and then you
were talking about this experience of
like the spiritual experience of
basically doing exposure therapy in
spaces you're uncomfortable with. Sure.
Yeah. How do
you how do you balance that with like
other groups of people? like there's
this tenuous view that I have of uh echo
chambers and how in some ways echo
chambers can be really valuable
especially for people who feel like
otherized and can't find community
elsewhere right I think that's why
people fall into echo chambers a lot of
the time um and on the flip side it's
probably really important to push
yourself to like go into these
alternative spaces right the fact that
people don't even understand what Elsa
incelss are like and it took a
researcher just polling them to be Oh,
they're not at all what we thought they
were, right? Like we were completely
wrong. Um I guess how do you like
balance these two things, especially if
like the maybe the viewpoints of the
people that you're not exposed to you
might find dangerous or like harmful?
I'm curious your thoughts on that. I think
um the phones and the social media has
made democracy
uh it really is put into question I
think for a lot of people like people
like because they have this basic
question of like how can I coexist with
people that I don't like right and not
just the cutesy like disagree with like
you know within this margin of like you
know all of us probably have some a lot
of enough like shared views that we're
like so we can tolerate our disagreement
It's like no, like people that actually
you think are like harmful or bad, like
how can I live with them when that's
literally like the first kind of
proposal of democracy is like that's
what you're going to do. You're like
live live amongst people in an agreement
with people that you actually don't
agree with. And it's what like Robert
Bisa talk about um an academic that I
interviewed at Vanderbilt University. Um
the it's the paradox of democracy like
these fundamental paradoxes of democracy
or or the paradox of democracy is like um
I I want good things to happen and I
need to exercise my power to make good
things happen and I'm also going to hold
up this other value of democracy which
is at odds with that fundamentally
because I need to defeat the people that
might do a bad thing. You know what I
mean? Um, anyways, I think that the but
I think that sh the echo chamber like
what you're talking about like people
say it like it's a bad thing but in so
far as it's just like shared social
language like it is community like
having like a echo chamber or you know
to me it's also like having like gated
culture instead of like open culture
that's like accessible to everybody.
There's this really good Substack
article. I don't remember who the person
is that wrote it, but it was about um
comparing Kendrick Lamar's Not Like Us
video to like Charlie XCX just as being
one being mass culture and one is kind
of like gated and coded culture. And so
like the Not Like Us music video has
like a ton of references to where
Kendrick is from. Like a ton of things
that are not explained, they're just put
there and they're in code so that they
exclude people. And the fact that you
can be excluded from something is kind
of what makes it it like that's the
border. You know what I mean? Um, so
yeah, I I believe in in like culture and
what democracy is is not like not all
the time like mass mass culture. It's a
bunch of distinct cultures being able to
like coexist and speak to each other and
even know what themselves are, you know?
Um, like when you said like the artist
community has like no [ __ ] idea what
the MMA community is, like I think like
because of the I don't know the really I
think it's all about the scrolling.
That's just my whole thing. But I think
because of the phones and the social
media, I don't think communities even
know what their own communities think or
are like, you know what I mean? Because
we have to engage with this sort of
strange fast performance veneer thing.
Like we have mass culture kind of
pouring into us all the time that like
it gets weird. You know what I Like I
have like friends like uh you know in uh
in like the music scene where they all
kind of signal in Instagram post like
constantly this like veneer of what they
think what they think that each other
think and then in personal relationship
you find out like what they really think
and it's all kind of more dynamic and
fluid. It's more of this like salt of
the earthy thing, right? Like I know
people that are like on the you know
like let's say more right-wing people
that would look at like you know a bunch
of my friends and think they're like
brain dead zombie woke like you know
evil I don't know cancel mob whatever
they are you know um and they'll think
that and they can think that and I would
think that too if I was just looking at
their Instagram posts and then I know
them personally though it's like no we
all also know like finance and
self-preservation and nuance like
everybody every single person. Um, so I
don't know that that's just one thing.
And then the so like part of like what
how to make like a community more of a
community. I'm a big advocate for like
ritual. So it's like you know you go do
the jiu-jitsu thing and you go and like
trying to be cocky and then you get
massively humbled. Um there is like an
established social language. Like
there's a thing that you can now kind of
grow up into. You know there's
mentorship and there's things that you
can learn to become part of this
community. So you walked up to it and
the code hit you in the face. You are
not part of this community. you're low
status in this community, but there is
like kind of socially known and
sometimes even written down and like
ritual procedural things that you can do
to like pay dues and conform and become
part of that community. And so, you
know, I'm just really interested now in
trying to figure out like I don't know,
I think it's necessary because the
deterioration of these kind of things
that used to exist more just in society.
I think we need to kind of intentionally
recommmit to them. Um, so that's what,
you know, I kind of concern myself with,
you know, and it's and it's interesting
as [ __ ] right? Like even for me like
I'm openly Christian uh queer left and
you know I talk about the Bible all the
time with things and I'm always talking
about like you know these things like
that you know like you said like people
have coded right you know rather
thoughtlessly and not even like really
but just kind of passively on their
phone. They're like fighting that's like
rightwing or they'll be like exercise
that's like rightwing like fitness
content. Yeah. They just kind of code it
even though that's not even like true in
their own hearts you know. And so for me
it's like in my community I just built a
room where like you know you can just be
openly Christian and queer and say you
[ __ ] and all sorts of things. Like I
just was the way that I was and this
horde of people showed up. It turns out
they're all here. Like I've a ton of
like religious and ex-religious people
or religious curious people or people
who just find that compelling. And like
my community gets to be like this wider
kind of far-left even to some center
right like tent. Um, but like I think
the reason that that works is because
the rules of the game are very apparent.
So like I don't know. Um, do you think
you have a a potential survivor bias?
Like cuz to some degree like one thing
that I think is really interesting about
your art and your channel and your
community. Have you seen any of my
anything? Yes. Um, before this I mean I
didn't I didn't run across it
organically. No, I was just wondering.
Yeah. No, I did. I didn't last week. Um,
but one thing that I think is really
interesting about like your your culture
and your community is this. It feels
like you you strive for authenticity in
a way that is authentic. Whereas
authenticity is like the it's like the
name of the game right now. Except I've
heard people being like I feel like AOC
is more authentic than she's ever been.
I'm like she has literally explicitly
said that she is being pragmatic and
like abandoning certain things that are
core to her so she can get [ __ ] done
that she cares about, right? which is
it's cool. I agree with her in that
ways, but fundamentally she's being less
authentic to herself to achieve certain
gains or people say like Donald Trump is
just like so authentic and I'm like you
literally voted for him because you
think that he he just lies all the time
unless like him being a liar is his
authentic self, right? And so it's
interesting because in many ways I feel
like we pursue authenticity at like a
major social level, especially on social
media in a deeply inauthentic way. like
authenticity isn't actually allowed.
Performative authenticity is I think
that authenticity is like like what does
that mean? And that's the thing to be
pulling apart, right? So the question is
if I turn so like when I talk to
insults, right, the worst advice that
people give them is like be yourself cuz
who they are is self-pittitying, victim
mindset, anxious, insecure men who are
angry. And so if they're just being
themselves, they kind of suck. They're
not very likable a lot of the time,
right? And so I guess like how do you
how do you bridge these two things of
like I want to be authentic and like
especially at like this public level of
like I want to be authentic but a lot of
authentic parts of people are ugly and
no one's going to like them and should
probably change. They should probably be
working on these things like how do you
how do you balance these two things?
Well John were you gonna say something?
Oh. Um, just about authenticity. I I
think that it's like it's interesting
because I I don't It is like such a
popular thing in politics now to be like
a very authentic person when and
obviously like when I think about it
like I I want to be I I feel like I'm
too authentic. I feel like I don't have
a different uh I I don't have a
different personality in my videos than
I do and I'm jealous of people who do
where I'm like, "Oh, there's more layers
in me. It's just like, nope, this is
what I'm obsessed with and this is how I
talk and okay." Uh but a politician,
you're a public servant. Like
authenticity is not necessarily the
greatest into the Yeah. Like you you
want to be representing your
constituents. And when I think of like a
really authentic politician, I think of
somebody like Bernie Sanders who like
has garnished a lot of interest and made
a lot of people think differently about
like their role in society and their
role in economics and stuff like that,
but has been not really a great
politician in terms of like getting laws
passed and stuff. He's done a pretty
terrible job when you just like look at
his record of of writing and and passing
things like, you know, he's named a
renamed a couple post offices and things
like that. But and that's because he's
too authentic and he can't actually
bridge a point with with other people
that would vote in his favor. And so
democratically it it starts, you know,
it it turns out that like maybe he would
have been a better writer, you know,
maybe he would have been and then like a
politician would have taken his ideas
and you know Yeah. It's funny too also
different different people's different
ideas of authenticity because for some
very left people uh there's that
martyrdom thing where like authenticity
means you lose like if you win that
means you're inauthentic. I've heard
people say this to my face right like
even someone said to me one time they
were like um their belief is that the
prime minister I'm from Canada that the
prime minister like it doesn't it's
impossible for there to be a good prime
minister because you have to be evil to
get to that position of power. And so
I'm like, okay, so what you just set up
is a paradigm where you will never win
ever in your entire life because by the
nature of you know someone winning that
means they are your enemy. So this is
like a death cult. This is a cult of
failure. Yeah. Where you just like you
know going to piously like dismiss
everything while having a psychological
split in your brain where in your
personal life you have to have the
nuance and you know what I mean like
it's just preposterous. I think that um
but I do think authenticity has just
been like very like under assault and I
think it's been like fetishized and
people are confused about like what it
is. So the philosopher John Dwey is like
one of my favorite guys, big defender of
democracy and wonderful writer about um
well pragmatism and art and also just
like education and growing. Um I big fan
of his philosophy. Like one of my longer
term goals is to be like the person that
can like really talk about experience
and nature and art as experience like is
two giant tomes. Um that a lot of people
kind of you know in the philosophy
community as or the academic community
as I've experienced it that's like for
them that's like where he went off the
deep end like kind of crazy you know
it's like this is like megalopolis or
something and they're like I like the
godfather which was like you know
whatever um reconstruction philosophy or
whatever. Anyways, um what uh he talks
about in art is, you know, like to uh
express yourself through art. He really
takes to the word like express like what
does that mean? And he means it's like
it's like uh making wine out of grapes.
It's like pushing something through
something. It's like coming up against
like it's having you like your you know
let's I don't know what let's call it
your authenticity but like you the way
you are what you like what you want to
do and then you come up against the
objective world you know because you
have to do this with cameras and
microphones and you have to try to like
you know you have to push through
material real things in order to get
this thing from inside of you to outside
of you and as that happens it's like
conditioned and changed. So like um you
know to say that art is about like
individual authentic subjective truth or
something it's like it's impossible.
It's you have to move through the
objective world to do it. It's
necessarily like working you know
together to create something new. You
know that's kind of outside of both of
you or you know it's due to the union or
whatever. Anyways uh this is to be
contrasted with like what he calls just
discharge where he says discharge is
when you just like like you know which
is cool. I mean you know you were
musicians right? you'll see people that
do like the I don't know like punk band
screaming thing, right? Um obviously
it's I think it's expression and it's
beautiful. There's art to all of this
stuff, right? Um and I also think that
art also goes through like experimental
phases where it is like a like shoving
out before like you realize like it like
calcifies into like a repeatable
structure like genre, medium or a
culture or whatever. Um, but yeah, like
some people are just like discharging
where they're making art where they just
like write down the thing that I wanted
to write and then they don't want to
change it. They don't want to edit it.
They don't care if like other people
like they're not interacting with like
the culture and the language. They're
not like pushing through. And so what I
think what we're calling authenticity
like politically and in culture a lot is
people like that people just discharge.
Like that's what people like about Trump
is there's very little space between
like him and what he what comes out of
him. just does does does and he and I
think it's um like so spiritually
corrosive actually because the kind of
like narcissism the like anti- world
kind of philosophy where you want it all
to exist inside of you right like you're
like that's why I think Trump is this
like champion of subjectivity because it
appears that he doesn't really respond
to like stimulus or like input and he
doesn't move towards specific goals he
just his whole agenda is is trying to
make everything about him as much as
possible. And you can see it through the
terrace stuff, right? He's clearly had
an idea. He's discharging it. He's
trying it, getting big reactions.
Everyone's talking about him. The whole
world has shifted to now be staring at
him. He's like, "This is great. I don't
know where this is going, but it's good
because everyone's looking at me. It's
all about me now." And I think that he's
just going to like, you know, I you
know, I don't think he planned to do
like this uh um whatever the insider
trading thing with the stock market. I
don't think he planned that from the
start. I think he just tries stuff and
then I think the discovered attacks that
he's going to find along the way are all
going to be creeping to authoritarianism
and and tyranny and narcissism and
decadence. But it's like it's almost
it's almost fundamentally accidental of
his like unthoughtful discharge. Yeah.
Of course. Right. Because then the flip
side of this is like again I don't think
he was scheming to become the president
his whole life. But then you look at him
like in New York in the 80s, same thing.
It's just like what can I do to make
stuff about me? You know what I mean? Um
yeah it's nightmarish. and uh what um
again Bjang Shuhan we just covered the
disappearance of rituals in my book club
on Patreon and uh he calls it the cult
of authenticity. He's a major critic of
authenticity and that's you know I am
too I guess basically and I've always
have been since I was like you know 17 I
was like everyone I was in art school
and everyone around me is like art is
subjective and it's like you know that
and I that was the first thing that ever
philosophically turned me on cuz I was
like I hate that. I don't know why I
hate that. I just hate it and I was like
art is objective and I wanted to fight
about it and that's like kind of a
through line in all of my work and
realizing like over time as it's kind of
deepened and become more like rich. Um I
think it's like about this too. It's
about like conforming to things that are
above you and like not just like
shrugging it all off but really engaging
with the world. And that's how I
actually feel like cuz I you know you
can quantify it and like instrumentalize
it to some degree talking about like the
dopamine balance of like going MMA
fighting or like touching grass and
stuff. But the flip side is also like go
be in the world like what an addiction a
lot of time is is just like you're going
farther farther into yourself, you know,
and just about this and you're not like
accepting that you are in the world.
You're not accepting of like discomfort
and accepting that like you know this
experience might not be about me and how
I feel right now. And that's healthy as
[ __ ] I mean, it's also holy. You know,
I've I've always like personally looked
at art as like the I've always just sort
of and this is just with my own personal
outlook. I've sort of broken things into
like art and service. And I think I did
that early on because like it was really
stressful making a living as a musician
in my 20s where I was just knowing that
like maybe this like whole thing that
I'm doing on this next album is not
going to work and people aren't going to
like it and then I'm going to be poor
and not be able to pay rent. Um, and so
I started doing music for more and more
music for like advertisements and
television and stuff. And it was and I
really it all of a sudden made me a way
better artist because I no longer gave a
[ __ ] about about how much I was making
from the album sales or shows or stuff
like that because I I had this this side
thing that was a service. And so I guess
like I I look at it whereas if it were
like really dark out tonight and I
needed more light in my yard. So I I
installed the light somewhere out there
and and then okay, well now it's bright
enough and now I could see what I need
to do at night. I could get between, you
know, get around the property and then I
but I really enjoyed installing that
light. So I install like another one and
I and then another one and then I
install like a hundred all in like the
back woods here or something like that.
And the only reason I did it is because
I wanted to do it. And then somebody
might drive by and go, "That yard looks
[ __ ] crazy. What is happening over
there?" I feel like that is like the
purest form of art where you just do
something for the sake of just wanting
to do it without any expectation of like
where it'll go or what it'll do. Um, and
I feel in music we have this we have
this like I feel like it's sometimes
toxic this like finish more songs, get
more songs done. And I've always I mean
like I I will write songs. I will mix
them and master them and delete them
because I love making music and like and
I [ __ ] hate the music industry. So
it's like the you know these two things
if you can if I can make music without
having to depend on releasing it then
like then all of a sudden that opens up
this whole new opportunity to just I
guess be more zen about the entire
process and enjoy life more. Would you I
know did you see um you watch Jacob
Collier interviews ever? Um a few. Yeah.
There's this one uh podcast he was on. I
think it was Colin and Samir um where he
talked about Rick Rubin and there's a
bit of a he actually critiques like his
book the called the circle you know the one
one
um and he uh critiques it. I'm going to
do like a longer video about all this
later um this year but uh the critique
is that um this can slide like the thing
that you're describing like I trust you
with it and you're speaking to something
real and um I can I would resay it in my
words like the way that I would say it.
I think it's about intrinsic value and I
think it's very beautiful and it's very
true but it also can slide into the sort
of like again mythologizing of like
narcissism of the self and the
subjectivity thing where that's what
Jacob Collier is talking about is like
how Rick Rubin sometimes describes art
is sometimes as if you're describing art
for people who haven't experienced like
aren't already artists that haven't
experienced like taking things to
completion repeatedly already right
because um you'll give this mythology of
it's about like standing on a mountain
and listening to the muse and not giving
a [ __ ] about what anyone says and doing
it and it's like purely individualistic
and it's about this like strike of
lightning. Enforce yourself upon the
world. Don't let anyone condition what
you're doing. Um, and yeah, that's true.
That's useful. I think the reason that
that's useful and beautiful is because
it points you towards intrinsic value.
Um, I would actually argue that's still
finding something that is kind of is um
functionally objective and outside of
the self. Like the what makes it so
useful like that that you can do like
when you if you set up that light in
your yard, you know, and it feels good
like what that means is like this thing
you set the light up in your yard and it
was going to be an instrumental value
that was going to allow you to do
something right. But then what happened
is the instrumental value became the
intrinsic value. You were like I like
doing this and that to me that's the
meaning of life. Like that's it like
intrinsic final values like that is what
makes life meaningful. And um that's
what uh what's his name? Uh Harry G.
Frankfurt like talks about in the
reasons of love like it's like the
meaning of life is finding something you
love like for its own sake something
worth doing and having a relationship
with for its own sake. So I think that's
the part that's like beautiful when you
talk about like making a song and mixing
and mastering and deleting. You're like
I just love doing this or like CTuin uh
talks about it with like games where
it's like if you have your friends that
like do a bunch of climbing and you're
like so you know when you're like 50 or
whatever like what are you building up
to? Why are you doing this? what when
are you going to retire from this or
something like that, you know, or
they're like, "What are you talking
about?" Yeah. Like, "This is it. Like,
this is [ __ ] it. There's nothing
else. This is the final value for me."
How do you How do you balance that then
against like the um as you said, like
the narcissistic mythologizing of self,
right? Like because I think um as
somebody interesting, I like listening
to artists talk because I feel very
outside of that world, right? Like I
come from a very science academic. Um we
always joke in my family, my brother got
the art cuz he's extremely talented in
art. um and very gay and I am very not
all of those things growing up. And so
one like one of like the science
academics criticisms of artists, right?
Like a lot of academics hate working
with artists because of kind of that um
that narcissism essentially that like
sense of self being like, "Yeah, but I
don't do this things this way." And the
scientist goes like, "Oh, right."
Because science doesn't have that um I
don't I don't matter in science. In
fact, science is almost the opposite
where you want to remove yourself as
much as possible. You try to remove bias
and try to make sure that you're not
inserting yourself into the medium at
all. And so I guess like how do you in
art because I think the intrinsic value
that you're talking about is true. Like
you do need to fundamentally come to
care about things. I guess with an
artist, do you think that like being an
artist is necessarily somewhat
narcissistic in nature or like how do
these how do you balance these things?
Um or is it inevitable? I suppose I
think well and and with science it's
funny, right? It's also like you are
literally instrumentalizing everything
like you're you're taking like
experience like the you know and you're
taking intrinsic values and you're like
you know what I mean? So if I'm you know
being studied about like my artistry or
something they're literally reducing my
life to numbers putting me in a data set
for some higher purpose that's always
somehow off in the distance so that you
know what I mean it's there's literally
that like functional quality of it.
uh and so I I think so artists I think
when well calibrated when like healthy
and doing their art thing they're
sensitive to intrinsic value like that's
the thing and it's I think that's
beautiful right and so um I don't think
that is really narcissistic like even
like what you're talking about like
following your passion and getting
fascinated by I mean like look at this
[ __ ] place like you're constantly
fascinated by new things constantly
learning things I'm obsessed with my own
little life and whole yeah I And it's
like, but it's not even just your little
life in whole cuz you're obsessed with
like technologies and cultures and
histories and the way things work. Like
you're always like learning and learning
to build things. So you're also becoming
incultured like into the world. You're
not just sitting doing something and
like you know you're always like
learning, you know what I mean? Always
like expanding and so but I'd also never
call anything that Ben like I've never
experienced Ben and Ben like yeah that's
a really narcissistic artist. Exactly.
That's what I'm saying cuz that's I
don't think that is narcissistic to be
sensitive to to you know beauty and to
be constantly learning wanting to like
immerse yourself in new things. And I
know I'm not this kind of musician, but
um I know like this other uh musician
Patricia Taxin that's like on the
internet and uh they're the same way
like where they just like crank out
album after album and want to like be so
many things. I want to make like a pure
ambient album and now I want to make a
pure this and they have like all these
I'm not like that. I like really sit on
my projects. I'm just like a bit of like
a different kind of artist. But I think
that's a very beautiful that is a very
like a like pro-social attitude to have
really right. Um, and in a way that's
kind of what Jacob Collier is kind of
arguing for against this Rick Rubin like
sit on top of a mountain thing is like,
you know, the other part of art that's
beautiful is just learning how to do
something like by its rules. Like not
just having Strike of Lightning, I'm the
original unknown thing from the
Stratosphere that paid no heed to
anybody, but like actually like, you
know, getting into the jazz community
and learning to play jazz. And there's a
right way to do it, you know? I think
it's it's interesting like uh I mean one
person who who thought that my my
session deleting habit was like utterly
just stupid and ridiculous is Ax Twin
who I thought would have like I was
telling him that expecting him to be
like yeah brother he was like no man I
would recommend not doing that that's so
dumb um because you know I would I guess
if you're thinking of like an a
narcissistic like
segregated intent intentionally
segregated artist in some way. Ax Twin
would be like the number one, you know,
like the literally lives in the middle
of nowhere and just cranks out his own,
you know, and releases it when he's when
he doesn't even release it that much
anymore. Or he releases stuff that's
like 30 years old just because he, you
know, doesn't um doesn't find value in
what people think of him anymore. Um or
never really did. Like he's always just
been a spa a space cadet in that way. Um
yeah, I don't know. I mean, I guess I I
when I think of narcissist, there has to
be like some socializing happening.
Like, you can't call like if somebody
lives in a cabin and then they're just
like hunting for food and and you know,
bringing the food back and skinning it
and cooking it and then working on the
door that broke because of the snowstorm
and whatever else. Like, you could be
like, "You're a narcissist. All you care
about is your own you know, it's like
well, it's possible that they could be a
narcissist if you were the fly in the
wall that could observe them, you know,
if they were forced in that social
exchange. Being antisocial is not even
not even the same as being narcissistic.
Yeah. Yeah. So, at like the risk of
being like like braggy as I'm as any as
as an artist, speaking to somebody who's
not an artist, like I think that like uh
to one of the few people in the world
who doesn't think they're an artist,
it's amazing. Uh honestly, yeah. I like
m at least with music I I think it's
because I've tried to understand its
value for a long time. And so like the
there's two things that like I think are
really so like from a more scientific
level like like you have to wonder why
music why did humans evolve in multiple
cultures. It's not like music was like
invented somewhere in the Middle East
and then you know it grew and more
people like everybody was doing it at
the same time and
oh dog that was a weird sound. Um and
but it like yeah like multiple
communities or or multiple cultures
around the world from long before we had
language were playing music of some
type. They were drumming mostly with
rhythm and then melody became a thing.
melody is very like the way that we
understand harmony in most in the west
and and most of the east is very very
similar to uh if so for example I had a
metal tube or or plastic tube rather and
uh like a vacuum tube and I spun it
song right because that's just like how
sound that to to break it down is as
like the simple as possible for for
viewers that's like just that's how
sound resonates and it automatically
just fits into certain tones in nature
and so so like but why insane the
harmonic cycle in nature like and when
you start to like realize that literally
like the like what a perfect major third
is is like no it's it's actually here
like it's out here except for the wolf
fifth there's something called the wolf
fifth and it it for it's not if you play
everything equally for some reason the
wolf fifth when a human hears it they
call it the wolf fifth because they It
sounds like a howling wolf over the
music and so they changed it in the
Gregorian scale a little bit to to but
anyway um so like for a long time I
wondered why why do like why did all the
humans do this and and it kind of just
be I don't know I did a video on this
and while writing the video oh I did a
video on entropy in music like what
entropy is how people misunderstand
entropy and like how why so many
institutions are always trying to find
or figure out or place entropy in music
in some way even though it's a really
absurd thing to even think about that's
kind of a waste of time. I'm just like
that everybody's obsessed with it. And
it kind of made me realize like holy
[ __ ] like if it if you're walking around
in the woods out here it's and you don't
have technology. You don't have anything
else. Like the sounds are utterly
chaotic. You can't make s like you have
latent inhibition in your brain. And so
if I say, "Hey, listen to that bird up
in that tree." You're not hearing the
car in the distance. You're not hearing
a plane. You're not hearing a squirrel.
You're only you're generally only
hearing the bird because your brain has
the this latency that filters it out and
is tuned into the bird. Yes. Unless
unless you have low latent inhibition or
some people who uh have uh what do they
call it? Not the everybody it's it's a
common word now. Um everybody's talking
about it. Autism. No, not autism, but
where they see colors, taste. No, no.
Where they hear too many things at once
and they get overwhelmed. Over
stimulation. They're sensitive to
stimuli basically. Anyway. Yeah. Um but
like low latent inhibition like people
who actually have an abnormality in
their brain like that's like extreme
like they most of them can't drive they
can't you know they hate it anyway. So
it's like by making music and by by
getting a dopamine rush from making
music or listening to music like our
brains are training us to recognize
patterns in in sound which allows us to
say oh there's a predator or oh there's
something and so so that's the first the
first part. The second part I'll be much
faster about. Um, it there's like things
when I when I express how I feel like
like what I just described to you, it
was pretty easy because I was able to
use English. But if I were to tell you
exactly how I felt today, I I can't do
it very well by quantifying it into
English words. And I feel like music
often in communication allows once you
get experienced enough at it, it allows
you to communicate between those words
in ways that like I can't. And that is
like a really beautiful thing. And like
if you put a baby in front of a piano,
all a baby can really express in general
is like I'm excited or I'm not excited.
Those are the two things. It's very
binary with with like an infant. And so
they would slam on the piano or they
wouldn't. And then like, you know, they
became like an 8-year-old or something
like that. They could say, "I'm happy.
I'm sad." They could play all these
these chords that you would actually
start to feel a little bit of how they
felt, but you wouldn't have the English
details. You wouldn't know that they
were sad because their teacher yelled at
them. you would then you would hear it
and you would then feel it and you would
apply it to oh I'm sad because of this
thing that happened with my husband or
dog or whatever. Um and then you know
when you become Herby Hancock or
somebody you can literally describe
Manhattan with a with a piano. Yeah. I I
remember when I was younger um and
honestly I still do this sometimes. I
would explain how I felt to my parents
just by like giving them a song. Like
I'd be like I just I can't explain it to
you. And so I'd usually give them music.
Um in part because I was very like
anodidonic. uh not anodonic like um
what's the word where you're
disconnected from your body acesthesia
or whatever. Um, that's what I was gonna
say. But tying tying it back, it's
interesting asking about the narcissism
of art because I think scientists will
often view artists as kind of like this
more narcissistic group, but I suspect
artists would probably feel the same
about scientists because narcissism isn't
isn't
about knowing oneself or selffocus,
right? It's about some level of the
immovable eye. Um, right? So, I've
definitely met scientists who are deeply
narcissistic where you'll be like, "Hey,
like this research you're doing
methodologically is poor in these ways.
You keep on getting non-findings.
Probably your hypothesis is wrong." And
like they're the immovable eye. They
must be right. Things must be done the
way they want. And it's like the
immovable eye that desires agillation.
So, not only are they immovable, but you
must orient positively towards them or
they can't tolerate it, right? Um Yeah.
I think it's to me that's um that person
or that attitude is when you're using
culture basically um as like an
instrumental thing to redown to your
glory like it's a status play right
think of that as a bad scientist
personally you're attaching your own and
they literally are because they and
you'll see like a bad scientist will be
like I'm not willing to like uh let go
of the glory that I got out of this
paper even if it's being revised. So you
see the value system is that my status
is more important than the thing I
purport to be passionate about. And
that's the same thing with artists,
right? It's like when I see artists that
like are not like you know what I mean
like you know like Aex Twin to me is so
clearly not like a like that's someone
that's just fascinated by a a thing, you
know? He's just fascinated by what he's
doing completely authentically and is
totally consumed by it and who doesn't
give a [ __ ] what anybody thinks. And
that's and that's really cool. And it's
actually another one of the magical
things about being that perfectly
authentic person is um I think this is
CTin again talking about like the value
of art is when you are when you it's and
if you treat it again like a kind of
social game um when you are completely
authentic and honest then people will
like you you are entering you're putting
data out there that people can coalesce
around and then people that resonate
with it they're like oh holy [ __ ] like
deeper than words are us authentically
are connecting about this thing. So you
enter into a game when you are authentic
where it's like you can connect with
other people on that level. So you know
when Ax twin throws all that [ __ ] out
there and like you and me are like this
is sick and then you and me get to talk
to each other and be like can you
believe this now there's like a deeper
connection. So it's also like you know
building relationship but actually also
interestingly in you know talking about
that communication thing that again
relies on other people like again that
you in order to make like um I don't
know like uh for me to to communicate
like a feeling through a song. It means
that I have to be creating it thinking
about how this affects other people that
experience it. Right? Like I have
someone else in the room with me while
making the art that's like listening to
it. You know even just conceptually and
it's kind of for people to listen to. It
isn't just for me to sit around and
listen to all day. I mean, and I guess
that's fine. That's kind of value
neutral, I would say, if someone is
supposed to like make some songs and
just listen to their own songs all day.
But I think there's like a we're such
we're such social creatures on such a
fundamental level. I think that is, you
know, always the motivation in some way
or another. And same with status. You
couldn't you couldn't be high status
without a community of people to be
above in status. Yeah. Like and and the
way you described a scientist thinking
about a like I feel like a lot of a lot
of scientists I know are musicians or
are like artists in some way, right? I I
feel like the two are very good at like
counterbalancing because one is like
very abstract and one is very not I
don't think of science as rigid really
like I don't think of it that way. I
think science is like you're like the
the most important rule I think whenever
I'm writing a paper, whenever I'm doing
any sort of research is I just need to
make sure that I want to know the answer
to my question more than I want to be
right. And that's and usually that's the
case if it's if it's something as
specific as you know finding out uh you
know how to how to resonate something
with like an ultrasonic frequency, you
know, whatever it is. Like I I don't
give a [ __ ] about being right. I give a
[ __ ] about like making something that
works that could make something cool
happen or useful for somebody else
that's somewhere down the line maybe or
make me money. Who knows? Like all these
things are different. Uh but yeah, like
one thing I hate more than than any no
matter how ridiculous somebody gets in
religion or anything, the thing I hate
the most is the like rigorous atheist
type who just thinks any sort of thing
that isn't
like provable.
Well, you know, it's also like the type
person who always says, "Show me the
white papers." Where it's like, yeah,
when some, you know, on the internet,
you hear those arguments all times.
People are like, "Well, show me the
white papers I need." It's like, you
don't know how to read a [ __ ] You're
not going to look at that. That's not
you have no idea what a white paper even
is. If you're like asking for one about,
you know, an argument about like crypto
or, you know, something like that. Um,
but also like the um, yeah, the the type
of people who just hate religion and
don't see any value in it whatsoever.
And I say this as a completely agnostic
person who's not religious at all, but
like my entire like from learning gospel
when I was a kid from like it I mean
that was all done that's all thanks to
religion. Like that's why that entire
section of music exists. Um religion has
written a story book that has defined
the culture we live in today whether
whether I want to admit it or not. Like
that's all there is to it. Like and a
lot of people I know find a lot of
happiness in religion and that's great
because they only have like 70 80 years
on this planet. So enjoy it and do
how exactly the universe started or how
Or is there like a core behavior there
that when you see it expressed towards
other if if religion is X, right?
Anti-theists are very opposed to X. Do
you find that that trait is irks him or
it's the religious uh revulsion
specifically that bothers you? I I think
like because of the close-mindedness,
it's really important to say I it's
really important to say I don't [ __ ]
know and I don't understand. If you
asked me right now for my take on Israel
vers Palestine, I do not [ __ ] know.
That's all there is to it. And I've
thought about this because everybody
asks me for my take on this [ __ ]
thing. And and like here's the thing. I
have friends in Israel and I have
Palestinian friends. I mean, I don't
like hang out with them every day.
Obviously, they're over there, but like
they're people I know who are telling
who have told me what's happening in
their life as this conflict has flared
up in this in this period. And both of
them are in the fog of war. So, they
don't know what's actually happening,
you know, all around. I certainly don't
overhear. I have no idea. And so, then
you think, okay, well, maybe in 10 years
I'll watch a PBS front line on it and
and then I'll know. But nope, because
the victor gets to write history. So the
actual fact is is I'm never going to
know what's happening in in I'm never
going to have a full 360 understanding
of the conflict and most people that if
not all people that I ever meet in my
entire life will not have that 360
understanding. There will always be
missing information that they're not
getting. And so like when it comes to
something like religion like you don't
understand why somebody would want to
blow themselves up. you don't understand
why somebody would uh would be Catholic
and like go through all the the rigorous
speaking Latin in mass and all that. I
mean that's how I grew up grew up as a
Catholic like it when for example yeah
like when people who have no experience
with Catholicism whatsoever which is
something that like I didn't even
realize existed until I moved down south
where people are like wait what what's
sacraments and saints. Um, but yeah,
like all of the weird rituals, like you
learn how crazy like, oh wow, I I
actually did a bunch of crazy things as
part of that wearing the the robes as an
alter boy, like all this weird [ __ ] that
like most people in the south haven't
experienced. And and it's I just don't
understand it. And it's okay. It's okay
to say like you don't get it. And so for
somebody to like call themselves a
scientist but then be able to to just
not understand why somebody would like
somebody and instead of being like
basically saying like no Muhammad
doesn't exist. God Jesus Christ was not
the son of God right because it's like
okay you don't know that like but it is
probable that these things but but you
don't because science is not a binary
thing. it's just something's really
probable or it's not prob not probable
like it's and so you already have to to
start on there like there is no right or
wrong there's only probabilities and
then second of all like why would you
not be more interested in why they have
the belief system that they have than
you would be in just telling them that
their belief system is wrong like like
that might act that might actually solve
a [ __ ] problem you might like if
you're so upset that like people are
killing each other over belief in God
then maybe you should figure out why
they believe in God maybe figure out
like you know. Exactly. Yeah. There's
more to learn for uh you know Richard
Dawkins or some somebody like that. Like
there's way more to learn from like in
that than there is to just blleh. Yeah.
And it's beautiful. It's beautiful. I
mean like uh famously Alex Okconor's
arc, right? That's like been his whole
thing starting as like an anti-
relligion I think basically atheist
channel. I do not follow him closely,
but I've just been informed and I've
seen some of the stuff with Jordan
Peterson because I was doing crazy
research on that for the longest time.
Um, but yeah, just like that's actually
the beautiful like redemption thing.
Like to me, like as a religious person,
that's a religious shape. It's like when
you go from the like and then you're
like, "Wait, what if I you know what I
mean? Like instead like you just turn
into this growing expanding like curious
thing and then you are actually dealing
with the problem that you kind of
thought you were stubbornly dealing
with." Um, yeah. So I know he's gone on
a whole like now uh adventure just
becoming actually wildly curious and
trying to learn everything about this
thing that he was kind of like against.
Um, yeah. It's also a symptom of context
collapse like just online context
collapse. And I think again speaking of
democracy like one of the things that is
making democracy not work. One of the
things we've forgotten about democracy
perhaps because it was kind of
unconscious procedural knowledge
embedded in society but now we've taken
that away. So we have to actually figure
it out and make it explicit in order to
keep it. But um not everybody can do
everything and not everybody has to have
opinion about everything and not
everybody has to be perfect at
everything and all that. And I think in
our careers like as like online people,
people will try to morph you, you know,
because whatever uh what's like Hank
Green's law of attention? It's like
whatever gets attention will be created.
Um that's what people are like hungry
for, you know, and people start to try
to treat their like content ingestion as
if it's like, you know, this is an
avatar for my moral character and so I
need them to constantly say things that
I agree with and that's the value I'm
getting out of The last video of yours
that I watched was that one was where
you talked about the the I guess the
your relationship with your viewers and
and what they demand and stuff like
that. And yeah, I mean it had like some
really good points. Um cuz that is
something that I always like one of the
things that you said that that I thought
like people if I were to ask if I were
to go on social media right now and say
what kind of album should I release next
what kind of video should I release
next? They would almost always say you
should do the you should do another one
like the one that I liked. It's like
well that's not my job. I already did
that. you listen to that over. Yeah. And
if I did it, you would not like it as
much as the first one. You'd be sick of
it. So like, no, it's my job to tell you
about a new thing or h or play you a new
song or whatever it is or a new style of
music that like that that I've found or
that I've adopted or that I've changed
or that I've invented or whatever it is.
And like and that may that may be good
or bad, but like the that is my job as a
creator. Like it's not my job isn't to
like I would suck at my job if I
listened to everybody. Yeah. How do you
then because that's like a very top down
approach to content creation which I I
think makes a lot of sense because I
think a lot of times viewers often don't
know what they want. Um and more
importantly commenters don't know
necessarily know what viewers want
because these aren't necessarily the
same beast. And then on the flip side I
know a lot of content creators. I think
I'm a lot more like this where I I'm a
bit of a bottom up where I'm like I I
didn't really ever plan to get into
content creation. So I'm mostly like
what do you guys want? I'll just make
that. They're like, I don't know what
you guys want. Um, how do you kind of
balance the two of like I think there's
a certain level of um taking the lead
and like um being that top down versus
like responding to your community and
what your viewers want or do you just do
one and not the other? Like how do you
engage in these two things? Um my NAM
video was definitely a what viewers
want? Like that one is just like a
dopamine rush and it's fun, you know?
It's it's uh like cuz it's just a bunch
of stats about music production. getting
my water. Yeah, go for it. Um, it's just
a bunch of stats about music production.
So, it's like, yeah, very inclusive to
the core community. My Patreon viewers
probably enjoyed it a lot more than
somebody who, you know, watched a video
of mine about how self-driving cars is
kind of a grift. Yeah. Like the the very
different um, and the viewership showed
it. It got like It's the worst video
performatively like in the YouTube
algorithm. It's like the the worst video
in the last year or two. Like, it did
very bad, but that's totally okay. It's
it's fine. Um, not every video has to
like, you know, if you look at every
video as like having to do better in the
algorithm than the last one, then you're
just going to have a really miserable
career on YouTube. Like it's um
you make the world worse, too, right?
You reference blit scaling a lot, too,
which I I'm glad you do because I think
people should be talking about that a
lot because that's the scaling. A blitz
scaling. Oh. Oh, yeah. You should
explain that. the blitz scalings where
well I mean you got we swing back around
to it. I want to talk about the thing
that you were talking about like the
balancing of them. Um I think uh
obviously everything exists on like a
spectrum like I don't think they're firm
categories. I think they're pragmatic
categories always by like tendency you
know like like you know um but uh I do
think like that's part of why I care a
lot about um
rendering like a divide between the
stage and the audience. Like I I believe
in the sanctity of the stage and like
that you know to be a performer or even
to be an artist actually like does maybe
mean something and so it's not just like
everyone's an artist just like diffuse
it because sometimes you lose something
like it is a role that anyone can pass
through. I don't think it's an objective
category like you are you aren't but I
do think it like matters. So like the
groundup approach thing you're talking
about and I know a bunch of people like
this like you're actually kind of more
like about community building like
you're more you're not you're not trying
to be like a performer and artist that
like has this wall of some kind. you're
not, you know, you like this
participatory kind of community thing
and that shows in your personality and
the fact that you like working with
people, you know, you you like to get
involved with people, you know, and
that's a obvious thing that obviously
real thing that one can do on the
internet clearly. Um the problem that I
have is when that become that kind of
encroaches upon like every performer or
every stage where it's like you know you
have this temptation where it's like um
you know like on TikTok right now if you
are a musician you have this temptation
to kind of like fashion yourself as if
you are an audience member like to be
like hey guys like here's my song I'm
like so relatable and then like thank
you so much and then respond to
comments. So it's like literally it's
and it's bizarre. So it's like you can
release something and then everyone that
likes it will be can you do a tutorial
for this and I'm like that's not
performer behavior. you don't hop into
the and then also someone's like this is
bad and you get in the comment section
you start fighting them. I'm like, why
are you hopping into your own fan club
to get in fights about your like it's a
bizarre behavior and it's not
performance, you know? And I believe
it's important to have that like wall
and it's for the people because like
they'll think they want it, but you
know, they don't realize you're like
destroying everything you love and and
even like um like like you said like
with political things like talk about
Israel and Palestine, right? It's like
is it like you can't have a functioning
democracy, a functioning coalition if
you require literally like we need to do
multiple things at once. That's what's
happening here, right? So, it's
someone's job to kind of take lead and
be the performer of some kind. You know
what I mean? Like the expert or to take
that as their craft to make that their
thing, right? But you also need like
music. You need someone to like I don't
know make green energy and [ __ ] right?
And like no one can do [ __ ]
everything at once. So, if you're
constantly trying to convert basically
like every like and that's that's on my
end, right? It's like I'm not a
political activist. Like I'm not an
expert on global geopolitics. I'm not a
I'm not even an expert on like domestic
politics, you know? I mean, I have my
political leanings, but like I don't
want to like uh make my job doesn't have
to be like everything that someone yells
at me out of a car window while speeding
past me on the street. You know, I'm an
artist and a philosopher and you need
someone to do that. So, like my passion
is like to try to um you know, it's like
well my passions
are many I suppose, but like it's to
like beautify, right? It's the like it's
it's it's about like ritual and beauty
and it's about like community and like
relationship and someone needs to do
that because you need your life to
become more beautiful. Your life has to
be worth living like that's part of the
being alive thing. Um yeah. No, I don't
think um and then same with the uh um
like you know asking everyone to
constantly do like BTS stuff or like you
know my audience would watch like um I
don't know if I just started live
streaming every Friday or something
right or like um you know uh if I if I
just did like
um yeah if if I if I started doing live
streams every
if I started doing live streams every
Friday my audience would show up and
they'd like that They want that. If I
mention that, they'll be like, "Please
do that." Right? But I would be
demystifying myself. Like I would become
something different, not the thing that
they loved in the first place. I would
start to hate them. Like it's not it's
not it's not good. Like you need people
to have their boundaries and like to be
the thing that they are and you not try
to force them to be everything
simultaneously or else you just destroy
everyone. Yeah. Interesting. One thing I
started doing or one thing I'm I'm
trying to do right now uh is when I run
into the comment that's like you know it
it I'm really disappointed and surprised
that you haven't made a video about uh
you know about what's happening in
Palestine you know something like that
like that person who who says that um I
I think I used to look at that where I'd
almost like break it into these two
sides or be like okay there's like the
left the leftwing pain in the ass people
and the rightwing pain in the ass people
and the rightwing people are like I
don't I don't know who's more unhinged
at this point? Like they're both I think
they're both like I I I sometimes feel
like left gets a little more under my
skin because like just because it's like
okay well I've abandoned the right a
long time ago and like hoping that like
you'll come around but this one you know
but I your people that hurts when it's
like your guys and you're like I'm on
your side purity testing [ __ ] is just
like give me bro but I think what I'm
I'm trying to not do that anymore not
even look because it's so politicized
online. I think now I'm just like, okay,
this is a person who is looking for a
problem. That's what they're doing. Like
they're they're they turned on they
turned on their nobody turns on their
computer anymore. I guess they opened up
their laptop from sleep mode. Um but
yeah, I mean they opened up their web
browser to look for a problem so they
could speak. They want to hear
themselves speak. And so if I did a
video on Palestine, I'd do it wrong.
Like it doesn't matter. and you know
somebody on the right or left and and I
guess looking at people like that or
looking at like detecting that a little
bit better makes it a little bit easier
to deal with them to tell the difference
between like what's useful and what's
not useful. It's also just utter
impotence, right? Like it's the fact
it's the fact that you're not in control
of this thing. You can't control it.
Like is is like you know this 300,000
subscriber YouTube channel going to end
like a hundreds of years. I'm sure
Israel would be like, "All right, boys.
Put the guns down."
And so, so I think it is really just an
impetence thing is people are just they
the only thing that they can have to try
to feel like control over the world is
can I control my content creators. Can I
ingest something or like tweet something
that like kind of gives me a feeling
like I okay I did my part. You know what
I mean? I think it is like a in the face
of helplessness and like just just like
tragedy. I think all over the place,
right? the same reason like people try
to like I don't know like be in my like
like and these are like stray like
nothing comments that like I never would
respond to and my comment sections are
actually wonderful but even if they
weren't I don't really read them so but
like but when people would get mad at
you for like saying a particular word or
even like making a joke of some kind you
know what I mean um uh like those like
what this is this is their day like this
trying to get some control over the
universe right now and like it's
probably because they're like suffering
or they're heartbroken and this is the
one spot where they might be able feel
like I did something. But I think it
really is like a massive sign of defeat
when your only idea of like activism or
like progress or like you know doing
something to contribute to solving a
problem that you are passionate about
amounts to tweeting on like Elon Musk's
like platform or like you know what I
mean Instagram.
It's really like yeah you're not you're
not Yeah. I know. I That's a horrible I
I have a friend who uh who really
stresses out about like mean comments
and he has a large uh platform or large
platform on YouTube and uh yeah, he gets
very stressed out by like some of the
negative sentiment and stuff like that.
And uh but yeah, I mean they I almost
did it as like an experiment for myself,
but like for on his birthday I had I
scraped every comment on his entire
channel. Like I just wrote a script that
scraped every single one and I made a
big word cloud in the word cloud and
it's all positive because you can't even
find the negative [ __ ] in it. Like once
you actually, you know, look at the data
as a whole, it's like you're [ __ ]
amazing. You've made a huge positive
mark on on society with your channel and
you can't even find any of the bitching
in it because the words are so big. The
the words that were used the most are so
big in the word cloud. Yeah. Yeah. It's
the the getting one guide thing, right?
Like I think the I really do think that
the technology is designed to do that to
you because it increases kind of
attention and interactivity and this
melding this feedback effect where
everyone gets more into it and it
presies on the negative emotion you
completely organically have like you
know obviously because if you said that
I'd done something to hurt your feelings
or then I would care and I'd want to do
something about it. So like you know
sometimes people go like um the internet
like uh well like like whatever negative
content gets more attention and that
says something really bad about like
people. And I think the other version of
interpreting that is like that's our
completely organic impulse to try to do
something about bad things when they
when you know we pay attention to things
that are problems so we can like you
know go to them and like change them and
make them better. And that's a good
thing. It's just being like harvested
and like weaponized to try to like get
this other response out of you. But
getting and it's and it's again it's the
democracy thing. It's a tragedy for
democracy cuz when you get one guide
when you spend your whole like you know
you're you're derailing like you know
the beautiful work that you're doing cuz
you're staring at like some like dark
corner of something and if you start
speaking to it then it gets bigger and
then that becomes your whole life as
you're just doing this back and forth. I
remember Sam Harris actually talked
about this um in his like when he left
Twitter podcast. They talked about how
like how like tragically uh humbling it
is to have deleted Twitter and your life
instantly just got in a million times
better and then to realize how much
brain fog that you were in that like you
would do an episode on something see
stuff on Twitter get into Twitter fights
about it and you might do like three or
four more episodes kind of on this
subject being like yeah this you know
and then realizing that if I just didn't
[ __ ] go on Twitter that would have
been like that would have been good and
then everyone that's like looking up to
me as their sort of curator of like of
attention they would be more honored cuz
you would give them something valuable
and you wouldn't be like dirtying them
with your stupid like weakness and like
distracting and like you got to be
something that actually was something,
you know. Interesting. I know you're
going to have to not yell at Cora. A new addition.
addition. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Uh both of you should talk really
fast. Oh, I'm talking. You're good.
Good. Yep. Okay. Um you lived in Jordan
Peterson's skin. I was saying to what
are your thoughts on him? I was saying
uh that's so funny. Like I was saying
that I feel like I'm in a dream
sometimes when someone starts talking
about Jordan Peterson. Yeah. Or like
even referencing or describing one of
his conversations because for pretty
much all of 2023 and then be all and a
lot of 2024 and ongoing now like I've
been working on this very large Jordan
Peterson video. Um, and so I really like
uh consumed everything of him and like
transcribed like most of it just like
hundreds and hundreds of hours of like
lectures and interviews and everything
and like broken all that. So um, so even
like when you're talking about like the
redefining truth thing, I'm like, you
know, part of the video is me taking his side a little bit in it. Yeah. Um, and
side a little bit in it. Yeah. Um, and it's all Anyway, so I'm not going to
it's all Anyway, so I'm not going to just recant the damn thing because it's
just recant the damn thing because it's like four hours long now.
like four hours long now. Yeah. Know, I mean, he's
Yeah. Know, I mean, he's just some of those people who were
just some of those people who were introduced to me as like, "Check this
introduced to me as like, "Check this guy. He has some good ideas." And then,
guy. He has some good ideas." And then, you know, and I was like, "Seems kind of
you know, and I was like, "Seems kind of I mean, it just seems salesmany to me."
I mean, it just seems salesmany to me." Like, that's it's it's really it's I
Like, that's it's it's really it's I mean, same with Trump though. I mean,
mean, same with Trump though. I mean, that was like the initial thing with
that was like the initial thing with Trump was like, "Yeah, he's kind of
Trump was like, "Yeah, he's kind of seems like a salesman." I mean, of
seems like a salesman." I mean, of course he is. He He's a real estate
course he is. He He's a real estate mogul. Like, radar you got to work. Like
mogul. Like, radar you got to work. Like I don't know why anybody would think
I don't know why anybody would think that Trump or Elon Musk like hm yeah he
that Trump or Elon Musk like hm yeah he might be a salesman considering that
might be a salesman considering that he's a billionaire and you know leeches
he's a billionaire and you know leeches money off of the government
money off of the government to negotiate different yeah I mean
to negotiate different yeah I mean basically like he's he's not really an
basically like he's he's not really an inventor of things he's just a person
inventor of things he's just a person who moves money around and yeah the um
who moves money around and yeah the um and my and that's the mistake people
and my and that's the mistake people often make sometimes with my videos
often make sometimes with my videos right if I make like a um like a video
right if I make like a um like a video about like I don't you know, like My
about like I don't you know, like My Little Pony, whatever. That's like the
Little Pony, whatever. That's like the latest thing I did. And then people will
latest thing I did. And then people will be like, "Oh, like this is like a My
be like, "Oh, like this is like a My Little Pony YouTuber now. They want to
Little Pony YouTuber now. They want to talk to me about that." I'm like, "No,
talk to me about that." I'm like, "No, you misunderstand. Like I'm not
you misunderstand. Like I'm not intrinsically interested in the thing. I
intrinsically interested in the thing. I use subjects as ways to talk about other
use subjects as ways to talk about other stuff." So it's like my interest with
stuff." So it's like my interest with Jordan Peterson isn't out of like
Jordan Peterson isn't out of like personal passion necessarily. It's just
personal passion necessarily. It's just like a matrix that involves like a lot
like a matrix that involves like a lot of things that I really want to talk
of things that I really want to talk about or a lot of the phone stuff even.
about or a lot of the phone stuff even. Yeah. People watch an old video um that
Yeah. People watch an old video um that I made and then like want to debate me
I made and then like want to debate me on social media about it or want to like
on social media about it or want to like ask me a question like Yeah. like want
ask me a question like Yeah. like want to have like an in-depth conversation uh
to have like an in-depth conversation uh like for example like I did one about
like for example like I did one about Tesla's self-driving cars like a year
Tesla's self-driving cars like a year and a half ago um where I like tested it
and a half ago um where I like tested it and you know did a bunch of and talked
and you know did a bunch of and talked about like why it's kind of unreasonable
about like why it's kind of unreasonable to think that cars will be driving
to think that cars will be driving themselves completely autonomously
themselves completely autonomously within our within the next you know
within our within the next you know decade at least and um yeah I mean to
decade at least and um yeah I mean to this day people like want to debate and
this day people like want to debate and it's like man the f like for me to be
it's like man the f like for me to be good at debating this for me to be like
good at debating this for me to be like actually like qualified to reenter this
actually like qualified to reenter this conversation like you have to go a year
conversation like you have to go a year back year and a half back because like
back year and a half back because like my brain is emptied out of everything
my brain is emptied out of everything there and now it is in deep space
there and now it is in deep space imaging or you know something completely
imaging or you know something completely different cuz I I just don't have the
different cuz I I just don't have the brain capacity to like remember
brain capacity to like remember everything that I was thinking about
everything that I was thinking about when I you know remember all the facts
when I you know remember all the facts and all the conclusions that I came to
and all the conclusions that I came to uh when making that video. Um which is
uh when making that video. Um which is you know which sucks. Maybe smarter
you know which sucks. Maybe smarter people can like hold on to that stuff
people can like hold on to that stuff and debate for the rest of their life.
and debate for the rest of their life. True though because like even like in
True though because like even like in academia um like well in philosophy I'll
academia um like well in philosophy I'll just say right like I I've seen again
just say right like I I've seen again this is another like a and when I talk
this is another like a and when I talk about you know like uh the subjective
about you know like uh the subjective kind of self-destructive narcissistic
kind of self-destructive narcissistic kind of impulse and I I'm when I talk
kind of impulse and I I'm when I talk about in art a lot of time I mean like
about in art a lot of time I mean like this is why people don't get off the
this is why people don't get off the ground right or maybe this means like I
ground right or maybe this means like I don't know this is just more about you
don't know this is just more about you and not like maybe you're not like an
and not like maybe you're not like an artist you know maybe you don't have to
artist you know maybe you don't have to be right or like or or it's that this is
be right or like or or it's that this is what's stopping you from kind of living
what's stopping you from kind of living that out in a you know more actualized
that out in a you know more actualized way. Um but like this is another symptom
way. Um but like this is another symptom of it sometimes I find with like writers
of it sometimes I find with like writers or like you know people that have ideas
or like you know people that have ideas is um they are like uh they're like I
is um they are like uh they're like I already wrote a piece on that that's my
already wrote a piece on that that's my piece and they're just constantly and
piece and they're just constantly and I've met multiple people like this that
I've met multiple people like this that are always like I said it so I just need
are always like I said it so I just need people to go read that that's my thing
people to go read that that's my thing and now it's going to be like something
and now it's going to be like something else. And I'm like that's not how you
else. And I'm like that's not how you communicate ideas. You repeat yourself
communicate ideas. You repeat yourself like an idiot for the rest of your life.
like an idiot for the rest of your life. If you ever look at like a philosopher
If you ever look at like a philosopher that like made progress on something or
that like made progress on something or like Jonathan Hay, right? Where it's
like Jonathan Hay, right? Where it's height, height, height, height, height.
height, height, height, height, height. He's probably taller than me. Okay. Um,
He's probably taller than me. Okay. Um, watch. He's like 5'4. I'm connecting.
watch. He's like 5'4. I'm connecting. I'm making it so I remember. Yeah,
I'm making it so I remember. Yeah, that's what I'm doing. Yeah, put that
that's what I'm doing. Yeah, put that over. He's a racist, which is the hate
over. He's a racist, which is the hate thing. Like I
thing. Like I um What was I? Uh oh. Yeah. Oh, I got
um What was I? Uh oh. Yeah. Oh, I got it. I just got what you
it. I just got what you said. Like he's racist. No, I don't
said. Like he's racist. No, I don't think he's racist, but he's taller than
think he's racist, but he's taller than me. Yeah, height. I got it. Height, not
me. Yeah, height. I got it. Height, not hate. Um, but like him, right? You have
hate. Um, but like him, right? You have to just keep saying the same [ __ ] Like,
to just keep saying the same [ __ ] Like, work on your research and then be
work on your research and then be married to it and commit yourself. And
married to it and commit yourself. And this is again, it's like not just
this is again, it's like not just following your whimsy and passion in
following your whimsy and passion in this case. It's discipline and like
this case. It's discipline and like committing to something even for all the
committing to something even for all the times you don't [ __ ] feel like it.
times you don't [ __ ] feel like it. And making yourself a little boring
And making yourself a little boring sometimes cuz you say the same thing.
sometimes cuz you say the same thing. And like also, I mean, the danger the
And like also, I mean, the danger the other thing is like the the willingness
other thing is like the the willingness to pivot and stuff where it's like where
to pivot and stuff where it's like where the danger is like actually commit to a
the danger is like actually commit to a message that might be wrong. That's
message that might be wrong. That's another one that's difficult, right? And
another one that's difficult, right? And that takes a lot of humility actually.
that takes a lot of humility actually. So the ignoring the audience thing is
So the ignoring the audience thing is like not just this like, you know,
like not just this like, you know, strike of light and inspiration and
strike of light and inspiration and above. It's also like subject yourself
above. It's also like subject yourself to criticism and evaluation by being an
to criticism and evaluation by being an object that stays approximately the same
object that stays approximately the same instead of like constantly revising. So
instead of like constantly revising. So people just like, you know, or they're
people just like, you know, or they're just different things rather, you know
just different things rather, you know what I mean? Um, but yeah, in order to
what I mean? Um, but yeah, in order to communicate something, you have to like
communicate something, you have to like just keep [ __ ] saying it. And that's
just keep [ __ ] saying it. And that's one of the things that I found in the
one of the things that I found in the Jordan Peterson research. I also take it
Jordan Peterson research. I also take it as like he's like a dark like inverted
as like he's like a dark like inverted shadow of my career in a lot of
shadow of my career in a lot of different ways. And that's one of the
different ways. And that's one of the things that I kind of found is like um
things that I kind of found is like um you know I've always had some people say
you know I've always had some people say like oh you say the same things or like
like oh you say the same things or like they get a similar value out of like me
they get a similar value out of like me you know um and so uh but but one of so
you know um and so uh but but one of so I you know I also try to take it as like
I you know I also try to take it as like a a lesson uh like of you know how to
a a lesson uh like of you know how to conduct yourself if you don't want to
conduct yourself if you don't want to become that like you know what to do. So
become that like you know what to do. So there's a few different like sides of
there's a few different like sides of that. Um, and I guess probably the
that. Um, and I guess probably the climax of that, like when they all made
climax of that, like when they all made themselves like really really embodied
themselves like really really embodied and clear was I went to see him in Radio
and clear was I went to see him in Radio City uh like in New York um sometime
City uh like in New York um sometime last year
last year um dressed like this, which was fun. I
um dressed like this, which was fun. I remember there's some uh I wanted to
remember there's some uh I wanted to talk to the people there and they they
talk to the people there and they they didn't want to talk to me so much. I was
didn't want to talk to me so much. I was like um but like it was just so
like um but like it was just so interesting. There's like So I want to
interesting. There's like So I want to say I'll say there's like three things.
say I'll say there's like three things. I'll like pull up three. The one was I
I'll like pull up three. The one was I asked the dude in line about like the
asked the dude in line about like the show that we just saw of like his
show that we just saw of like his monologue, his little sermon or
monologue, his little sermon or whatever. So, you went to Jordan
whatever. So, you went to Jordan Peterson's like live show? Yeah, it's
Peterson's like live show? Yeah, it's live show. His performance. Yeah. Yeah.
live show. His performance. Yeah. Yeah. Um and uh where he literally just goes
Um and uh where he literally just goes on stage and monologues for like a
on stage and monologues for like a sermon. Yeah. It's a sermon. Yeah. Well,
sermon. Yeah. It's a sermon. Yeah. Well, it's a sermon. It's a it's a lecture. Um
it's a sermon. It's a it's a lecture. Um it's what he it's it's his craft really.
it's what he it's it's his craft really. He should have a double basist
He should have a double basist like while he's doing it. What a what
like while he's doing it. What a what what comedian did that? Oh, Mitch
what comedian did that? Oh, Mitch Hedber. Yeah, Mitch. Yeah. Yeah, like
Hedber. Yeah, Mitch. Yeah. Yeah, like behind himself or as a bit on No, just
behind himself or as a bit on No, just behind him for the basis. He probably
behind him for the basis. He probably speak in more rhythm as a result and
speak in more rhythm as a result and he'd be like, "Yeah, the thing with with
he'd be like, "Yeah, the thing with with women is they had
it would probably change what he's doing more." And actually, it does speak to
more." And actually, it does speak to what we're saying here, right? So like
what we're saying here, right? So like uh and I mean so the first thing was
uh and I mean so the first thing was that like afterwards this is kind of
that like afterwards this is kind of like talking to a comment section and
like talking to a comment section and realizing a little bit of what's
realizing a little bit of what's happening like the service that Jordan
happening like the service that Jordan Peterson provides which is one of the
Peterson provides which is one of the reasons I wanted to do this
reasons I wanted to do this philosophical deep dive on him is not
philosophical deep dive on him is not actually like education sometimes you
actually like education sometimes you know a lot of time it's like what he's
know a lot of time it's like what he's doing is like um people are enjoying the
doing is like um people are enjoying the aesthetic experience of listening to a
aesthetic experience of listening to a smart person be smart and then that
smart person be smart and then that smartness that performance of smartness
smartness that performance of smartness just justifies their kind of political
just justifies their kind of political alignment. So they like him really
alignment. So they like him really because he fights the woke and he stands
because he fights the woke and he stands for sort of like traditional families.
for sort of like traditional families. You know, this might this is a very
You know, this might this is a very common type of fan. Um and then I asked
common type of fan. Um and then I asked the dude next to me in line. I was like
the dude next to me in line. I was like I was like, "Well, did you like the
I was like, "Well, did you like the show?" And he's like, "Yeah." I was
show?" And he's like, "Yeah." I was like, "What what did you what's
like, "What what did you what's something like new or interesting that
something like new or interesting that you like pulled out of it?" And he was
you like pulled out of it?" And he was like, "Uh I like what he said about uh
like, "Uh I like what he said about uh responsibility." And like it wasn't even
responsibility." And like it wasn't even about responsibility. That's just
about responsibility. That's just something you've heard him say before,
something you've heard him say before, right? His big sticktick. and he was
right? His big sticktick. and he was holding he was holding one of the books
holding he was holding one of the books like I think it was like he wanted to
like I think it was like he wanted to get it signed or I don't know what he
get it signed or I don't know what he maybe he had bought it just then or he
maybe he had bought it just then or he just took it like a Bible to a sermon.
just took it like a Bible to a sermon. Um but yeah that was interesting. Um the
Um but yeah that was interesting. Um the second thing and this is probably the
second thing and this is probably the whole thing really. Well okay no so that
whole thing really. Well okay no so that guy just didn't absorb the the lecture.
guy just didn't absorb the the lecture. I I I don't I don't know. Well, you're
I I I don't I don't know. Well, you're getting something out of it, but it's
getting something out of it, but it's not uh what you're getting out of it
not uh what you're getting out of it isn't actually like isn't it a little
isn't actually like isn't it a little bit depressing on some level to imagine
bit depressing on some level to imagine if let's say me I also I'm doing like
if let's say me I also I'm doing like live lectures and performances literally
live lectures and performances literally the exact same business model as
the exact same business model as Peterson. I was just thinking that yeah
Peterson. I was just thinking that yeah like when I when I've when I when I've
like when I when I've when I when I've spoken at like colleges and stuff I've
spoken at like colleges and stuff I've been like yeah like I think I when you
been like yeah like I think I when you were saying that I was applying it to
were saying that I was applying it to myself. I was like, wonder how many
myself. I was like, wonder how many people were just like, "Yeah, Ben Jordan
people were just like, "Yeah, Ben Jordan like was there." Exactly. I know him.
like was there." Exactly. I know him. And like uh yeah, it would be depressing
And like uh yeah, it would be depressing if like you realize like your kind of
if like you realize like your kind of educational spiel, whatever the thing
educational spiel, whatever the thing you were passionate about, no one was
you were passionate about, no one was really engaging with it at all. And like
really engaging with it at all. And like there was something else like it was
there was something else like it was just like I said, the aesthetic quality
just like I said, the aesthetic quality of listening to a smart person say smart
of listening to a smart person say smart things.
things. even to the concern of like if you give
even to the concern of like if you give like
like your thing and people are interested in
your thing and people are interested in it but it's like an ear out the other
it but it's like an ear out the other like it doesn't you know what I mean
like it doesn't you know what I mean like it would it's just a bummer to me
like it would it's just a bummer to me if someone can like read my book and see
if someone can like read my book and see my live show and not really be able to
my live show and not really be able to say what I believe you know um so that's
say what I believe you know um so that's one thing and then uh the second thing
one thing and then uh the second thing was that the lecture that he gave was it
was that the lecture that he gave was it was the [ __ ] it was um it was he did
was the [ __ ] it was um it was he did Kane and Abel I couldn't [ __ ] believe
Kane and Abel I couldn't [ __ ] believe it cuz this is from is like um 1998 like
it cuz this is from is like um 1998 like maps of meaning. It's like the same
maps of meaning. It's like the same [ __ ] thing. And this is one of the
[ __ ] thing. And this is one of the things I noticed about these people that
things I noticed about these people that you have this radar on um is like
you have this radar on um is like they're thinkers, right? So they're like
they're thinkers, right? So they're like and they and they apply themselves to
and they and they apply themselves to literally every subject matter. So
literally every subject matter. So they'll engage with literally anything,
they'll engage with literally anything, but they actually stop doing their
but they actually stop doing their research like before the first time they
research like before the first time they were on camera. Like they're not
were on camera. Like they're not actually engaging in new research, not
actually engaging in new research, not doing more work, right? They're not
doing more work, right? They're not doing like Jordan Peterson isn't doing
doing like Jordan Peterson isn't doing new academic work. He's left the
new academic work. He's left the institution. He doesn't care. he's just
institution. He doesn't care. he's just saying the same things really and then
saying the same things really and then being basically a Twitter user and
being basically a Twitter user and pontificating like with the cred of like
pontificating like with the cred of like I'm a philosopher, psychologist,
I'm a philosopher, psychologist, whatever, you know. It's strange to me
whatever, you know. It's strange to me too because like I feel like the
too because like I feel like the research is the fun part like for me at
research is the fun part like for me at least like I feel like I I really when
least like I feel like I I really when when I'm making my video the part that's
when I'm making my video the part that's fun is before I write the script, before
fun is before I write the script, before I turn on the camera and then like it's
I turn on the camera and then like it's like okay well now I have to like
like okay well now I have to like justify it and share whatever I learned
justify it and share whatever I learned or whatever I did. Um, well, it tells
or whatever I did. Um, well, it tells you something about these guys though,
you something about these guys though, right? That means that they're they're
right? That means that they're they're showman. Like they in their hearts they
showman. Like they in their hearts they are like they love the performance part.
are like they love the performance part. They like when they get laughs in their
They like when they get laughs in their thing and stuff, you know? Yeah. Um, and
thing and stuff, you know? Yeah. Um, and I I can relate to that cuz I'm an artist
I I can relate to that cuz I'm an artist and I'm a performer, you know. I was
and I'm a performer, you know. I was going to say like the research part is
going to say like the research part is like I love reading research and
like I love reading research and learning new things, but like I would
learning new things, but like I would never call like when I'm prepping for a
never call like when I'm prepping for a debate, I typically try to do a fair bit
debate, I typically try to do a fair bit of research before the debate, but I
of research before the debate, but I would never say that the research part
would never say that the research part is like the fun part. It it's the it's
is like the fun part. It it's the it's the it's the culmination of all my work.
the it's the culmination of all my work. into a debate like I don't that's that's
into a debate like I don't that's that's a funny thing too is I feel like if
a funny thing too is I feel like if somebody was like hey man you want to
somebody was like hey man you want to you want to debate I'd be like like no
you want to debate I'd be like like no like what are you talking
like what are you talking about like like I it's an interesting
about like like I it's an interesting like remnant of a different internet
like remnant of a different internet culture like the debate me bro and it
culture like the debate me bro and it seems the atheist like rationalism
seems the atheist like rationalism there's this moment yeah and I mean I'm
there's this moment yeah and I mean I'm a bad one to ask because I'm obviously
a bad one to ask because I'm obviously in the industry and I really love debate
in the industry and I really love debate and in fact I think what debate has
and in fact I think what debate has become like especially with like Piers
become like especially with like Piers Morgan and stuff is really Um it's like
Morgan and stuff is really Um it's like we've like taken our precious sacred
we've like taken our precious sacred child and like beat it up and cut it up
child and like beat it up and cut it up and put on like weird clothes and and
and put on like weird clothes and and whatnot and now we're being like see
whatnot and now we're being like see debate and it's like this isn't what it
debate and it's like this isn't what it was for cuz I I love Aristotle. I
was for cuz I I love Aristotle. I basically you might hate this take but I
basically you might hate this take but I always say Aristotle saw philosophy and
always say Aristotle saw philosophy and everything since then has just been like
everything since then has just been like a really crappy don't hate that take at
a really crappy don't hate that take at all. Face and for me it's uh Greek
all. Face and for me it's uh Greek philosophy was never my inn. Um, and so
philosophy was never my inn. Um, and so some people they're passionate about
some people they're passionate about that, they start there. But for me, it
that, they start there. But for me, it was like pursuing the things that I was
was like pursuing the things that I was passionate about and then seeing Greek
passionate about and then seeing Greek philosophy just start to like, oh, they
philosophy just start to like, oh, they already did it all. It's like you're
already did it all. It's like you're like, "Oh, this is so cool." You're
like, "Oh, this is so cool." You're like, "Oh, Plato did it." Like did the
like, "Oh, Plato did it." Like did the forms already. You can you will discover
forms already. You can you will discover that again and again. But that's like,
that again and again. But that's like, you know, which is funny to think about
you know, which is funny to think about to to like think that like like somehow
to to like think that like like somehow our generation is like the first
our generation is like the first generation to be like, "What are we like
generation to be like, "What are we like trying to figure that out?" Like we're
trying to figure that out?" Like we're the first. Yeah. like wow we're so lucky
the first. Yeah. like wow we're so lucky to be it's also the way you're taught it
to be it's also the way you're taught it it's too wrote right where it's like
it's too wrote right where it's like this is what the meaning of this is and
this is what the meaning of this is and then you actually have to live life and
then you actually have to live life and then you go oh wait that made me just
then you go oh wait that made me just made me think of that like famous thing
made me think of that like famous thing but I actually you have to connect it to
but I actually you have to connect it to real life experience and not have it
real life experience and not have it abstract yeah so so tying back in to
abstract yeah so so tying back in to answer like what like debate essentially
answer like what like debate essentially how do you get into it yeah it's it's
how do you get into it yeah it's it's because essentially I think one of the
because essentially I think one of the best ways to learn and like grow you
best ways to learn and like grow you probably again see this because of me I
probably again see this because of me I tend to think in dialectics whenever I
tend to think in dialectics whenever I think of an affirmative position ition,
think of an affirmative position ition, I immediately start to attack it and try
I immediately start to attack it and try to tear it down to see how well that
to tear it down to see how well that idea will hold up after scrutiny
idea will hold up after scrutiny essentially. I just think it's a really
essentially. I just think it's a really cool way to think about things and
cool way to think about things and rather than me doing this by myself in
rather than me doing this by myself in my own head, which some people can do
my own head, which some people can do and that's incredible. I typically want
and that's incredible. I typically want like an opponent who can do it and then
like an opponent who can do it and then I can wrestle with my ideas and then in
I can wrestle with my ideas and then in like their very very aratilian way, it's
like their very very aratilian way, it's like I have my perception and view of
like I have my perception and view of the world and then I get another person
the world and then I get another person to come in and lay their perception of
to come in and lay their perception of view and that hopefully will broaden my
view and that hopefully will broaden my own view. Now my view can include some
own view. Now my view can include some of theirs as well. That's why I love
of theirs as well. That's why I love debate. So how do you get into it? You
debate. So how do you get into it? You like join these cringey debate servers
like join these cringey debate servers and they have hosts and they ask you,
and they have hosts and they ask you, "Do you think this insane thing is true
"Do you think this insane thing is true or false?" You be like, "False. That's a
or false?" You be like, "False. That's a crazy thing to say." And they're like,
crazy thing to say." And they're like, "Prove it." Right. Which is kind of fun.
"Prove it." Right. Which is kind of fun. It's kind of a sport. Yeah. It is a
It's kind of a sport. Yeah. It is a sport. It's a skill. And that's the
sport. It's a skill. And that's the other thing about Aristotle, too, like
other thing about Aristotle, too, like the and the rhetorics like before him,
the and the rhetorics like before him, right? Is it is also just an art that
right? Is it is also just an art that you can learn to do for its own sake. It
you can learn to do for its own sake. It is not really a pursuit of truth
is not really a pursuit of truth necessarily. You can also just do it.
necessarily. You can also just do it. you can be. So, it's a beautiful tool
you can be. So, it's a beautiful tool that can be wielded to expand your mind
that can be wielded to expand your mind if you know you're playing a game. But
if you know you're playing a game. But again, speaks to the cult of
again, speaks to the cult of authenticity thing. You know, the debate
authenticity thing. You know, the debate is actually the ideas fighting and these
is actually the ideas fighting and these are the avatars and you have to like r
are the avatars and you have to like r up the audience and win. So, it's just
up the audience and win. So, it's just like a weapon. So, it's not actually an
like a weapon. So, it's not actually an exercise anymore. Exactly. Before the
exercise anymore. Exactly. Before the first time or the Yeah. The first time I
first time or the Yeah. The first time I came on Bridges like before that I I
came on Bridges like before that I I like one of my things I I think I just
like one of my things I I think I just said it on social media because
said it on social media because everybody was telling me, "Oh my god,
everybody was telling me, "Oh my god, Destiny, Bridges, we can't do this." Um,
Destiny, Bridges, we can't do this." Um, and and I was like, I don't want to
and and I was like, I don't want to argue about politics. And the reason I
argue about politics. And the reason I don't want to argue about politics, like
don't want to argue about politics, like I just don't want to be in that
I just don't want to be in that position. And the reason I don't want
position. And the reason I don't want to, it's not that I I like feel like my
to, it's not that I I like feel like my I can't voice my opinions or that my
I can't voice my opinions or that my opinions aren't valid. It's that almost
opinions aren't valid. It's that almost always it always just turns down into or
always it always just turns down into or always just whittleles down to this
always just whittleles down to this argument about what is real. Like if
argument about what is real. Like if something is real or is not real. Like
something is real or is not real. Like that's like you just always end up. So
that's like you just always end up. So it's like if if we could agree to only
it's like if if we could agree to only speak in probabilities then like that
speak in probabilities then like that then we might actually get somewhere but
then we might actually get somewhere but like otherwise I mean cuz if if I
like otherwise I mean cuz if if I started debating with somebody who was
started debating with somebody who was pro-life let's say like somebody who's
pro-life let's say like somebody who's meant like pro-life um what we're
meant like pro-life um what we're debating is like the actual thing that
debating is like the actual thing that we are debating despite everything else
we are debating despite everything else and all the like cultural and political
and all the like cultural and political issues is when does a human being become
issues is when does a human being become a human? Yeah. like which guess what
a human? Yeah. like which guess what there's no answer to that there's and so
there's no answer to that there's and so it's like so it's like then why even
it's like so it's like then why even have this debate anymore like it's
have this debate anymore like it's boring it's always going to go to the
boring it's always going to go to the same places there's never going to be
same places there's never going to be and there's absolutely never going to be
and there's absolutely never going to be one person who who makes a point and the
one person who who makes a point and the other person go huh all right done you
other person go huh all right done you know like that never happens there's too
know like that never happens there's too much identity attached to it yeah not
much identity attached to it yeah not this is why I hate like the the kind of
this is why I hate like the the kind of the current form we see because I when I
the current form we see because I when I first started I actually had lots of
first started I actually had lots of debates that would end with like me and
debates that would end with like me and the other person being like okay yeah I
the other person being like okay yeah I think I changed my mind about this,
think I changed my mind about this, right? Um, and I think it's like a lost
right? Um, and I think it's like a lost form. And to be clear, not just a lost
form. And to be clear, not just a lost form, I'm not even criticizing from this
form, I'm not even criticizing from this pedestal of being like, I'll admit when
pedestal of being like, I'll admit when I'm wrong. I'll admit when I've changed
I'm wrong. I'll admit when I've changed my mind. Like I think even the more you
my mind. Like I think even the more you spend time in the space, the more team
spend time in the space, the more team sportsy you become, which is something I
sportsy you become, which is something I try to be really cautious of of like
try to be really cautious of of like coming from a debate space, but also
coming from a debate space, but also really valuing like the psychology like
really valuing like the psychology like conversational space. Um, again, I try
conversational space. Um, again, I try to hold these two things together and
to hold these two things together and kind of make space for both. Um because
kind of make space for both. Um because I think both are really valuable. Like
I think both are really valuable. Like for example, my biggest critique of the
for example, my biggest critique of the debate space is that it's very
debate space is that it's very hypomascul and competitive and stuff
hypomascul and competitive and stuff like that, but it actually loses one of
like that, but it actually loses one of the greatest like fem things which is
the greatest like fem things which is understanding, right? And it's like if
understanding, right? And it's like if you've lost understanding in a debate,
you've lost understanding in a debate, there's there's no point in doing this
there's there's no point in doing this anymore unless you're being a
anymore unless you're being a performance artist essentially, which
performance artist essentially, which you can do for your own side. And
you can do for your own side. And there's some level of funness to, you
there's some level of funness to, you know, I I view like blood sports as the
know, I I view like blood sports as the closest thing we have to like sorcery
closest thing we have to like sorcery battles because it's like two minds
battles because it's like two minds battling it out, right? But the issue
battling it out, right? But the issue the issue is that like when you're
the issue is that like when you're watching a sorcery battle, it's not like
watching a sorcery battle, it's not like at the end we go, "Oh, that one sorcerer
at the end we go, "Oh, that one sorcerer is truth." Right? We just go, "They won.
is truth." Right? We just go, "They won. The fireballs were bigger." You know?
The fireballs were bigger." You know? Whereas in modern debate, we'd be like,
Whereas in modern debate, we'd be like, "See, this sorcerer said the thing that
"See, this sorcerer said the thing that I liked the most, so they're true." And
I liked the most, so they're true." And it's like that that doesn't mean that
it's like that that doesn't mean that we've like acquired truth, which is the
we've like acquired truth, which is the sad reality of like what I think
sad reality of like what I think performative social media has done to
performative social media has done to the art of debate. Yeah. And I also
the art of debate. Yeah. And I also think that um as with Jordan Peterson
think that um as with Jordan Peterson yet again that like if you also never
yet again that like if you also never shut the [ __ ] up, I no longer trust you.
shut the [ __ ] up, I no longer trust you. Like if you never stop like when you do
Like if you never stop like when you do too much of something when all you do is
too much of something when all you do is debate, there's no way that you can kind
debate, there's no way that you can kind of retain your humanity and humility
of retain your humanity and humility about your craft and like no, you know
about your craft and like no, you know what I mean? You can't see it. You can't
what I mean? You can't see it. You can't even I don't know if you can even see
even I don't know if you can even see yourself. And that's the thing about
yourself. And that's the thing about like uh you know, seeing Jordan Peterson
like uh you know, seeing Jordan Peterson perform is having him walk out on stage.
perform is having him walk out on stage. I'm like, this guy hasn't shut the [ __ ]
I'm like, this guy hasn't shut the [ __ ] up for like 30 years. Just hasn't shut
up for like 30 years. Just hasn't shut the [ __ ] up. How do you trust a thinker
the [ __ ] up. How do you trust a thinker that doesn't take time to think? Like,
that doesn't take time to think? Like, you know, that's it's ridiculous. Right.
you know, that's it's ridiculous. Right. And I saw that's how I felt. It was just
And I saw that's how I felt. It was just autopilot when he walked on. It was just
autopilot when he walked on. It was just like he just he could just do this
like he just he could just do this forever. And there was this like like
forever. And there was this like like there was this pantomime I hated at the
there was this pantomime I hated at the end where it's like the Q&A section came
end where it's like the Q&A section came up where it's like this guy comes out.
up where it's like this guy comes out. He's touring for his book uh what is the
He's touring for his book uh what is the new one. I think it's out now. The God
new one. I think it's out now. The God who we who wrestle with God. And so it's
who we who wrestle with God. And so it's all about God. Um Jordan Peterson book.
all about God. Um Jordan Peterson book. Yes. I don't know. It's his latest one.
Yes. I don't know. It's his latest one. Wash your penis.
Jeez, he's allowed to say that. I like what he
he's allowed to say that. I like what he says though. That's true. You should
says though. That's true. You should Nothing wrong with that one. You should
Nothing wrong with that one. You should wash your That's a good solid.
wash your That's a good solid. Unfortunately, a lot more young. I feel
Unfortunately, a lot more young. I feel like that was like the beginning like
like that was like the beginning like Yeah. I feel like the when everybody
Yeah. I feel like the when everybody liked him, I feel like all of his all of
liked him, I feel like all of his all of his like messaging towards men, which is
his like messaging towards men, which is generally what what was angled towards
generally what what was angled towards could be like summarized as like wash
could be like summarized as like wash your penis. I had one, this is just
your penis. I had one, this is just personal story, but I have like one
personal story, but I have like one friend that we were just like having
friend that we were just like having like a like a like a like a what's it
like a like a like a like a what's it called the there's a smores board of
called the there's a smores board of various cheeses
various cheeses and wine a social time. I was like
and wine a social time. I was like cheese cheese. My brain was like so
cheese cheese. My brain was like so philosophy thinking mode that I was like
philosophy thinking mode that I was like what is cheese?
what is cheese? Um but like I just had one friend that
Um but like I just had one friend that revealed to me at our last like social
revealed to me at our last like social hangout that like she's just having a
hangout that like she's just having a full-blown like 2018 12 rules for
full-blown like 2018 12 rules for lifestyle Jordan Peterson thing. She's
lifestyle Jordan Peterson thing. She's like, she's like, "No, it it really
like, she's like, "No, it it really makes a lot of sense." And like we're
makes a lot of sense." And like we're dying laughing cuz it's like it's like
dying laughing cuz it's like it's like seven years too late. It's so funny. But
seven years too late. It's so funny. But anyways, no good. But people that get
anyways, no good. But people that get the good stuff out of it, that's great.
the good stuff out of it, that's great. Yep. I was going to say the second book
Yep. I was going to say the second book literally helped save my marriage
literally helped save my marriage between Nick and I. Like I'm I'm not
between Nick and I. Like I'm I'm not joking. I read through the second book.
joking. I read through the second book. Um wash his penis eventually. It's like
Um wash his penis eventually. It's like book wash your penis. Nick can wash his
book wash your penis. Nick can wash his own penis. Okay. Again. Well, the second
own penis. Okay. Again. Well, the second one is a lot more about this like a lot
one is a lot more about this like a lot of it is actually about relationship.
of it is actually about relationship. Well, maybe that's just what I took
Well, maybe that's just what I took away. I think it's true by thesis it is.
away. I think it's true by thesis it is. It's like the chaos version. It's
It's like the chaos version. It's supposed to be more about the feminine
supposed to be more about the feminine unknown side. And that's a criticism he
unknown side. And that's a criticism he got like a lot when he did the order
got like a lot when he did the order thing. It was everyone's like order and
thing. It was everyone's like order and it's masculine and you're preaching
it's masculine and you're preaching about it so why are you obsessed with
about it so why are you obsessed with order? Like that's better. And he's like
order? Like that's better. And he's like I'm not like it's order and chaos. The
I'm not like it's order and chaos. The second book is chaos. You got to and you
second book is chaos. You got to and you got to read the first book that like the
got to read the first book that like the textbook really that genuinely that book
textbook really that genuinely that book unironically saved my marriage. Like it
unironically saved my marriage. Like it was really helpful like one chapter in
was really helpful like one chapter in particular of the tyrant and the slave
particular of the tyrant and the slave was really helpful to see like the
was really helpful to see like the classic relationship breakdown dynamic
classic relationship breakdown dynamic over and over and being like oh my gosh
over and over and being like oh my gosh Nick and I's roles are reversed here
Nick and I's roles are reversed here right at our worst like that. And like
right at our worst like that. And like it's critical of both the enabler and
it's critical of both the enabler and the tyrant, right? Like it's it's
the tyrant, right? Like it's it's critical of both positions, right? He
critical of both positions, right? He tells this story of this woman who's at
tells this story of this woman who's at her husband's deathbed and he's been
her husband's deathbed and he's been like a bully their whole relationship.
like a bully their whole relationship. Not abusive, but a bully, right? In the
Not abusive, but a bully, right? In the very tron kind of way. And as he's
very tron kind of way. And as he's dying, she's clipping his nails for him
dying, she's clipping his nails for him cuz he can't move anymore. But she's
cuz he can't move anymore. But she's intentionally clipping as close to the
intentionally clipping as close to the wick as possible to make him bleed a
wick as possible to make him bleed a little bit. And he's like, "You don't
little bit. And he's like, "You don't want to be in a relationship." Like
want to be in a relationship." Like first of all, you don't want to be the
first of all, you don't want to be the bully whose wife resents you so much
bully whose wife resents you so much that as you're dying, she's like just
that as you're dying, she's like just doing the tiny little things to make it
doing the tiny little things to make it a little bit worse, but you don't want
a little bit worse, but you don't want to be the woman who's in that
to be the woman who's in that relationship making everything just a
relationship making everything just a little bit worse. Living a life of spite
little bit worse. Living a life of spite and destruction, like resignation,
and destruction, like resignation, cynicism. It's kind of suicidal. So
cynicism. It's kind of suicidal. So helpful to like look at and be like,
helpful to like look at and be like, "Oh, I see where I do the spite pieces."
"Oh, I see where I do the spite pieces." And I It was just Yeah. So like I'm not
And I It was just Yeah. So like I'm not I'm not standing. I don't basically
I'm not standing. I don't basically anything of of Jordan Peterson after
anything of of Jordan Peterson after like basically his like coma I just like
like basically his like coma I just like pretty hard like I don't even watch it
pretty hard like I don't even watch it but just you know my like the thesis of
but just you know my like the thesis of the video basically and I'm not going to
the video basically and I'm not going to say like exactly what it is but watch it
say like exactly what it is but watch it yes eventually um uh it's but but it's
yes eventually um uh it's but but it's but it's it's that I philosophically
but it's it's that I philosophically like I found I read I study mo I try to
like I found I read I study mo I try to actually just focus on his first
actually just focus on his first textbook like maps of meaning like
textbook like maps of meaning like that's it I just want to do the
that's it I just want to do the philosophy part and like skip the
philosophy part and like skip the self-help stuff and like you know um I
self-help stuff and like you know um I call it the before times like pre like
call it the before times like pre like actually yeah but just pre pre- 2016 is
actually yeah but just pre pre- 2016 is the before times basically and so it's
the before times basically and so it's like if we just look at this thinker
like if we just look at this thinker that's like incredibly famous and I for
that's like incredibly famous and I for me there's something philosophically and
me there's something philosophically and like back then that I think contributes
like back then that I think contributes to this kind of manicky and moralizing
to this kind of manicky and moralizing route that he eventually took. So I
route that he eventually took. So I don't actually subscribe to the like
don't actually subscribe to the like post coma narrative that a lot of people
post coma narrative that a lot of people are like, "Oh, we changed afterwards."
are like, "Oh, we changed afterwards." Like it was always there. You could
Like it was always there. You could always see it. It got just louder, you
always see it. It got just louder, you know? Well, I feel like the post coma I
know? Well, I feel like the post coma I mean, I feel like that that's when I
mean, I feel like that that's when I started enjoying because like that
started enjoying because like that that's when like he completely lost his
that's when like he completely lost his [ __ ] mind and it was just like I I
[ __ ] mind and it was just like I I would like look at his tweets and just
would like look at his tweets and just be like, "Wow, you know, like wow, he's
be like, "Wow, you know, like wow, he's completely this this man's insane." Um,
completely this this man's insane." Um, but in his in his books, I have to say
but in his in his books, I have to say in his self-help books that he does I I
in his self-help books that he does I I like this and I respect this is that um
like this and I respect this is that um when you're writing a self-help book, he
when you're writing a self-help book, he tones it down for the most part. Like I
tones it down for the most part. Like I would say in 12 rules for life and for
would say in 12 rules for life and for 12 More Rules like his he takes on an
12 More Rules like his he takes on an authoral tone like he tries to be
authoral tone like he tries to be helpful to everybody and it doesn't take
helpful to everybody and it doesn't take every opportunity. It's not all screeds
every opportunity. It's not all screeds about the left or whatever. Like he's
about the left or whatever. Like he's like I'm in self-help book mode like he
like I'm in self-help book mode like he takes on a different voice. He doesn't
takes on a different voice. He doesn't sound like your grandpa who's like just
sound like your grandpa who's like just talking about N. always giving his best
talking about N. always giving his best a little and you're like grandpa Nan was
a little and you're like grandpa Nan was like forever ago like I was thinking of
like forever ago like I was thinking of the music conference I'm
the music conference I'm like cool grandpa I guess cool grandpa
like cool grandpa I guess cool grandpa um okay I had one last question that was
um okay I had one last question that was ruminating in my mind oh something I've
ruminating in my mind oh something I've been wrestling with a lot especially
been wrestling with a lot especially more recently which is like this idea of
more recently which is like this idea of bridging with opposites right in
bridging with opposites right in democracy and pushing into spaces that
democracy and pushing into spaces that make you
make you uncomfortable and the dialectic of And
uncomfortable and the dialectic of And some things are intolerable, right? Like
some things are intolerable, right? Like I would never, as much as I want to like
I would never, as much as I want to like understand other people. Um, I would
understand other people. Um, I would never like want to like spend a lot of
never like want to like spend a lot of time with like cannibalistic people that
time with like cannibalistic people that murder people to the point that I'm
murder people to the point that I'm being like, look, like sometimes there's
being like, look, like sometimes there's like a good time to cannibalize murder
like a good time to cannibalize murder people, right? Like I would never I
people, right? Like I would never I never want to do like the genuine
never want to do like the genuine version of like uh what is it called?
version of like uh what is it called? Likewashing or whatever. Saneashing.
Likewashing or whatever. Saneashing. Have you heard that? Nope. It's like
Have you heard that? Nope. It's like this new liberal purity test right now
this new liberal purity test right now that's driving me crazy. people who are
that's driving me crazy. people who are what making it seem like it's sane by
what making it seem like it's sane by engaging with it with the fact that it's
engaging with it with the fact that it's real or something like basically like
real or something like basically like steel manning really ridiculous
steel manning really ridiculous positions to kind of make it seem more
positions to kind of make it seem more sane essentially and and I think this
sane essentially and and I think this can occur the problem to me is like
can occur the problem to me is like there is a time to do steel manning and
there is a time to do steel manning and there's a time not to steel man and it's
there's a time not to steel man and it's really hard to know the difference right
really hard to know the difference right so like I've very much part of like why
so like I've very much part of like why Steve and I separated in bridges there's
Steve and I separated in bridges there's a number of reasons but one of them is
a number of reasons but one of them is that we have you can probably tell very
that we have you can probably tell very different approach approaches to how we
different approach approaches to how we want to engage with Republicans and
want to engage with Republicans and people that we vehemently politically
people that we vehemently politically disagree with, right? And the problem is
disagree with, right? And the problem is that I'm aware that the nuking
that I'm aware that the nuking everything to the ground approach might
everything to the ground approach might act it might be that time. You know,
act it might be that time. You know, it's possible because there are there
it's possible because there are there was time for revolution, right? I'm not
was time for revolution, right? I'm not opposed to the Civil War, for example. I
opposed to the Civil War, for example. I think that that was a thing that had to
think that that was a thing that had to happen. And so, not that I want civil
happen. And so, not that I want civil war. I mean like the literal American
war. I mean like the literal American civil war had to occur and the
civil war had to occur and the revolution was a good thing, right?
revolution was a good thing, right? Um, how do you think about engaging with
Um, how do you think about engaging with Republicans? Because I feel like I keep
Republicans? Because I feel like I keep on wanting to like talk to them and
on wanting to like talk to them and understand them. The reality is that
understand them. The reality is that Trump had this massive popular vote.
Trump had this massive popular vote. People resonated with him and it's
People resonated with him and it's fundamental that we understand why that
fundamental that we understand why that is. And then I'll
is. And then I'll see I'll like talk to my neighbor who's
see I'll like talk to my neighbor who's a like very insane Republican,
a like very insane Republican, unironically wants me deported. Um, and
unironically wants me deported. Um, and he'll like talk about the terrorists and
he'll like talk about the terrorists and I'm just
I'm just like like I can't you don't you don't
like like I can't you don't you don't understand anything about money. I don't
understand anything about money. I don't understand anything about money and I
understand anything about money and I know that you don't understand anything
know that you don't understand anything about money. So I guess like how do you
about money. So I guess like how do you how do you guys solve this? Cuz I'm I'm
how do you guys solve this? Cuz I'm I'm genuinely querying the answer. I don't
genuinely querying the answer. I don't know. I don't know how to do this cuz I
know. I don't know how to do this cuz I feel like I keep trying to do the
feel like I keep trying to do the empathy piece and then I just get so
empathy piece and then I just get so frustrated
frustrated um that I'm like now I'm like blowing up
um that I'm like now I'm like blowing up the whole empathy goal. But like there's
the whole empathy goal. But like there's also a time where you
also a time where you don't, right? I've worked with child
don't, right? I've worked with child abusers. I've worked with like really
abusers. I've worked with like really brutal people. Yeah. And I very much
brutal people. Yeah. And I very much have this saying of like empathy isn't
have this saying of like empathy isn't just understanding. It's understanding
just understanding. It's understanding but not excusing. Right. Like that is
but not excusing. Right. Like that is empathy. And so I can empathize with
empathy. And so I can empathize with most Republicans by not excusing their
most Republicans by not excusing their behavior. But increasingly it feels like
behavior. But increasingly it feels like I'm getting into the situation where I'm
I'm getting into the situation where I'm like I don't feel like I'm talking to
like I don't feel like I'm talking to please. I don't feel like I'm talking to
please. I don't feel like I'm talking to feel so bad sometimes cuz the dog can
feel so bad sometimes cuz the dog can notice that I'm not giving them the same
notice that I'm not giving them the same amount of and they go to me and they're
amount of and they go to me and they're like where is it? And I'm like I'm
like where is it? And I'm like I'm sorry. It's time. I'm sorry. But I feel
sorry. It's time. I'm sorry. But I feel like less I feel less and less like I'm
like less I feel less and less like I'm talking to somebody who's got a child
talking to somebody who's got a child abuser past and confronting them with
abuser past and confronting them with like your kids don't owe you a
like your kids don't owe you a relationship. And I know that that's
relationship. And I know that that's hard to hear, right? I've had to have
hard to hear, right? I've had to have those conversations with clients. I feel
those conversations with clients. I feel like I'm more talking to my clients
like I'm more talking to my clients where I'm like your dead ex doesn't live
where I'm like your dead ex doesn't live in our basement. She's not there. You're
in our basement. She's not there. You're having a mental break, right? And it's
having a mental break, right? And it's like the way that I engage in empathy
like the way that I engage in empathy with somebody who doesn't have a a
with somebody who doesn't have a a connection to reality is not the same
connection to reality is not the same way that I do with somebody who does.
way that I do with somebody who does. They're just coping and trying to excuse
They're just coping and trying to excuse and justify things they feel ashamed
and justify things they feel ashamed about or things that they're angry about
about or things that they're angry about and hate, right? And so I don't know how
and hate, right? And so I don't know how to solve this cuz increasingly I'm like
to solve this cuz increasingly I'm like is everyone just becoming increasingly
is everyone just becoming increasingly like unironic psychotic? Like did co
like unironic psychotic? Like did co just melt everyone's brains a little bit
just melt everyone's brains a little bit and their gra their ability to even
and their gra their ability to even grasp reality is kind of broken? Like I
grasp reality is kind of broken? Like I don't I don't know. I I just kind of
don't I don't know. I I just kind of treat my neighbor like a crazy old man
treat my neighbor like a crazy old man now. I'm like, "Okay, my I should say
now. I'm like, "Okay, my I should say his name. Okay, Matt." Like that's his
his name. Okay, Matt." Like that's his name is not Matt. When When we were in
name is not Matt. When When we were in Houston, I mean, just a random like when
Houston, I mean, just a random like when we were in Houston, me and Cameron went
we were in Houston, me and Cameron went to a flea market and there was some guy
to a flea market and there was some guy that was like selling like cowboy boots
that was like selling like cowboy boots or, you know, something just random at a
or, you know, something just random at a flea market. And we were looking at it
flea market. And we were looking at it now and me and Cameron were like in some
now and me and Cameron were like in some other conversation and uh and I saw this
other conversation and uh and I saw this some it was some sort of thing some sort
some it was some sort of thing some sort of Rambo thing like some old vintage
of Rambo thing like some old vintage Rambo Sylvester Swan thing and the guy
Rambo Sylvester Swan thing and the guy goes yeah well you want a real hero and
goes yeah well you want a real hero and he pulls he opens his jacket and we're
he pulls he opens his jacket and we're like what the [ __ ] And um he opens his
like what the [ __ ] And um he opens his jacket and he pulls out a Trump trading
jacket and he pulls out a Trump trading card that had him dressed up like Rambo
card that had him dressed up like Rambo and Trump dressed up like Rambo. Yeah.
and Trump dressed up like Rambo. Yeah. And he was like, "Who do you think's or
And he was like, "Who do you think's or no I I said I was like, "Who do you
no I I said I was like, "Who do you think would win in a fight between the
think would win in a fight between the Cuz he was like, "This is the real
Cuz he was like, "This is the real hero." And I was like, "Okay." Uh, "Who
hero." And I was like, "Okay." Uh, "Who do you think would win, Rambo or him?"
do you think would win, Rambo or him?" And he was like, "Trump." And I was
And he was like, "Trump." And I was like, "All right." And then whatever.
like, "All right." And then whatever. You know, it's just like, "Well, why
You know, it's just like, "Well, why even [ __ ] make like but but the funny
even [ __ ] make like but but the funny thing is is
thing is is like, nope." It was almost as if it
like, nope." It was almost as if it happened so fast that we had to go back
happened so fast that we had to go back in time and be like, "How [ __ ] crazy
in time and be like, "How [ __ ] crazy is it to like sell boots at a flea
is it to like sell boots at a flea market that is like 99% Hispanic
market that is like 99% Hispanic people?" Like, like he was like one of
people?" Like, like he was like one of the few white people there. Um, and then
the few white people there. Um, and then see another white person and show them a
see another white person and show them a trading card of Donald Trump, somebody
trading card of Donald Trump, somebody who you support politically, with
who you support politically, with muscles. Like, what the [ __ ] Like,
muscles. Like, what the [ __ ] Like, what? What? Like I I don't like we we
what? What? Like I I don't like we we the only thing that we could really
the only thing that we could really think is like I guess he just wanted to
think is like I guess he just wanted to like talk [ __ ] about Mexicans and
like talk [ __ ] about Mexicans and thought we might be a good like bunny
thought we might be a good like bunny for that. Are you are you cool? He was
for that. Are you are you cool? He was checking if you would code switch and
checking if you would code switch and like how and that's a lot of the you
like how and that's a lot of the you know a lot of this the silliness um is
know a lot of this the silliness um is very clearly like it's uh it's loyalty
very clearly like it's uh it's loyalty testing. Like it's like you know I with
testing. Like it's like you know I with this you know take this man and put him
this you know take this man and put him in like a like a like a like a dog
in like a like a like a like a dog fight. I think he's probably going to
fight. I think he's probably going to bet on the obviously larger dog. Like I
bet on the obviously larger dog. Like I don't I don't know if I don't know if
don't I don't know if I don't know if that cognitive thing is gone. It's more
that cognitive thing is gone. It's more the like I'm demonstrating like my, you
the like I'm demonstrating like my, you know, culture or like my allegiance or
know, culture or like my allegiance or whatever. You know what I mean? But like
whatever. You know what I mean? But like the idea that this person is somebody to
the idea that this person is somebody to be politically debated with is a waste
be politically debated with is a waste of time. You may as well debate with a
of time. You may as well debate with a flat-earther like because it's like okay
flat-earther like because it's like okay well like the probability that the earth
well like the probability that the earth is round is so much higher that this is
is round is so much higher that this is not really worth talking about. But this
not really worth talking about. But this person like this person with the trading
person like this person with the trading card and many of the people that you
card and many of the people that you encounter online, they're clowns. And if
encounter online, they're clowns. And if we had Marjorie Taylor Green here, it
we had Marjorie Taylor Green here, it would get a lot of views, but I don't
would get a lot of views, but I don't want her here because she's a [ __ ]
want her here because she's a [ __ ] clown. She doesn't we're not actually
clown. She doesn't we're not actually going to get any useful information out
going to get any useful information out of her because a she's playing a part
of her because a she's playing a part and b she's a bully. And like and people
and b she's a bully. And like and people who are bullies, I just like I when I
who are bullies, I just like I when I run into a bully, I just want to punch
run into a bully, I just want to punch them or I want to like embarrass them.
them or I want to like embarrass them. And I and that's not what I want to do
And I and that's not what I want to do on my platform ever. And so it's like
on my platform ever. And so it's like that's that's how I feel about that. On
that's that's how I feel about that. On the other end, which is really funny
the other end, which is really funny because like I feel like if we were to
because like I feel like if we were to have a Bridges episode and Marjgery
have a Bridges episode and Marjgery Taylor Green was going to come on it, I
Taylor Green was going to come on it, I would probably try to talk you out of
would probably try to talk you out of it. If you if you had like a convicted
it. If you if you had like a convicted [ __ ] pedophile who wanted I would be
[ __ ] pedophile who wanted I would be like, "Yeah, that's because I'm going to
like, "Yeah, that's because I'm going to learn something from that. Your audience
learn something from that. Your audience is going to learn something from that."
is going to learn something from that." And that and more importantly is instead
And that and more importantly is instead of just like saying that this person
of just like saying that this person deserves to die, this person's the worst
deserves to die, this person's the worst says worse than a murderer. That doesn't
says worse than a murderer. That doesn't help children. Saying that help does not
help children. Saying that help does not help victims at all. Understanding how
help victims at all. Understanding how that person became a pedophile is what
that person became a pedophile is what helps children. And so it's like that's
helps children. And so it's like that's something that actually needs opening
something that actually needs opening up. But it's just really difficult and
up. But it's just really difficult and repulsive to do it for most people. So
repulsive to do it for most people. So they don't want to do it. And it's much
they don't want to do it. And it's much easier to just say, well, no, I don't
easier to just say, well, no, I don't not ped all pedophiles should die, you
not ped all pedophiles should die, you know, or or just like, you know, make it
know, or or just like, you know, make it this binary thing where it's like, well
this binary thing where it's like, well then like you had to if you pretend to
then like you had to if you pretend to care about children that much, you need
care about children that much, you need to change that priority a little bit.
to change that priority a little bit. you need to do something that's a little
you need to do something that's a little bit more difficult to look at that
bit more difficult to look at that because yeah, it it numbers haven't
because yeah, it it numbers haven't lowered since we've put them in prison
lowered since we've put them in prison longer, which would mean that like maybe
longer, which would mean that like maybe we need to actually dive into this and
we need to actually dive into this and and look into it and and because it is
and look into it and and because it is it's but we can all agree that it's
it's but we can all agree that it's wrong to abuse children. Like I I can't
wrong to abuse children. Like I I can't think of anybody I've never met a person
think of anybody I've never met a person in my life who doesn't agree with that.
in my life who doesn't agree with that. Yeah. And so like
Yeah. And so like may maybe this is something that so so
may maybe this is something that so so it is an interesting twist at the end of
it is an interesting twist at the end of this monologue of mine here. It is an
this monologue of mine here. It is an interesting twist to think that like I
interesting twist to think that like I would rather have a pedophile than
would rather have a pedophile than Marjgerie Taylor Green sitting next to.
Marjgerie Taylor Green sitting next to. Well is one that's the other thing is
Well is one that's the other thing is one of them is an active propagandist.
one of them is an active propagandist. Is the other person like actually just
Is the other person like actually just like uh a side of humanity that you are
like uh a side of humanity that you are afraid to look at? Yeah. That you have
afraid to look at? Yeah. That you have this like you know kind of knee-jerk
this like you know kind of knee-jerk again. And it's like I don't want to
again. And it's like I don't want to look at it so I will just say this thing
look at it so I will just say this thing that I think they should all just be
that I think they should all just be murdered. Which is obviously not a
murdered. Which is obviously not a sincere engagement with maybe if you're
sincere engagement with maybe if you're worried about that problem, how would
worried about that problem, how would you like mitigate it? And what do you
you like mitigate it? And what do you actually think? You know what I mean?
actually think? You know what I mean? Like maybe just one last thing, maybe a
Like maybe just one last thing, maybe a more fun way of looking at that is if
more fun way of looking at that is if you
you try to think of your expected answer if
try to think of your expected answer if you asked Marjorie Taylor Green what she
you asked Marjorie Taylor Green what she thinks about pedophiles. Like pretty
thinks about pedophiles. Like pretty easy. You could like write that you
easy. You could like write that you could almost perfectly predict it
could almost perfectly predict it verbatim and then ask a pedophile what
verbatim and then ask a pedophile what they think of Marjgery Taylor Green and
they think of Marjgery Taylor Green and I have no [ __ ] idea. That was just a
I have no [ __ ] idea. That was just a scientist in you. You were just like
scientist in you. You were just like Yeah. No, that's that's that's really
Yeah. No, that's that's that's really interesting because I think I think the
interesting because I think I think the reality is that the way that you engage
reality is that the way that you engage like this is essentially some level of a
like this is essentially some level of a platforming question as well, right?
platforming question as well, right? Which is essentially it's not a simple
Which is essentially it's not a simple answer. It has to be nuanced, right? In
answer. It has to be nuanced, right? In the way that treating crime or addiction
the way that treating crime or addiction has to be nuanced and individualized,
has to be nuanced and individualized, right? Because when I think about the
right? Because when I think about the guy at the flea market for example, a
guy at the flea market for example, a lot of my work in the red pill space for
lot of my work in the red pill space for example is being essentially that one
example is being essentially that one good liberal. So I don't abandon any of
good liberal. So I don't abandon any of my liberal principles but I emphasize
my liberal principles but I emphasize dysfunction for people but I emphasize
dysfunction for people but I emphasize things like yeah men do have it tough.
things like yeah men do have it tough. There are things that are difficult you
There are things that are difficult you know like I essentially go your feelings
know like I essentially go your feelings are fairings are just feelings. It's
are fairings are just feelings. It's fine that you feel that way but this
fine that you feel that way but this this isn't actually true. Like this one
this isn't actually true. Like this one thing isn't true. And also like if you
thing isn't true. And also like if you hold this belief and this will please
hold this belief and this will please simultaneously, you're just being
simultaneously, you're just being inconsistent. Like these two things
inconsistent. Like these two things can't coexist in the same in the same
can't coexist in the same in the same moral principle system, right? And I've
moral principle system, right? And I've wrestled this a lot, but we had a really
wrestled this a lot, but we had a really good conversation with Dr. K where he
good conversation with Dr. K where he said like one thing that's really
said like one thing that's really important to think about is obviously
important to think about is obviously like I'm never going to change Myron's
like I'm never going to change Myron's mind, but that's not why I'm talking to
mind, but that's not why I'm talking to Myron. I'm not trying to be like maybe
Myron. I'm not trying to be like maybe I'll convince Myron to like, you know,
I'll convince Myron to like, you know, change his mind and not hate women. You
change his mind and not hate women. You mean Matt or Wait, what you talking
mean Matt or Wait, what you talking about? My name Sorry. Okay. Yes. Um,
about? My name Sorry. Okay. Yes. Um, yeah. Not my neighborhood. I don't
yeah. Not my neighborhood. I don't really know who that is. Yeah. So, I was
really know who that is. Yeah. So, I was not I think I got the face though.
not I think I got the face though. Right. He's a he's an performative
Right. He's a he's an performative arbiter for the audience I'm actually
arbiter for the audience I'm actually trying to reach. Right. But Dr. K kind
trying to reach. Right. But Dr. K kind of pointed out if if the viewers
of pointed out if if the viewers watching this go, there's no good women
watching this go, there's no good women and there's no good liberals to finally,
and there's no good liberals to finally, well, there's one. It's like you've
well, there's one. It's like you've actually changed a fundamental belief
actually changed a fundamental belief because if there's one, there can always
because if there's one, there can always be more. Right? this is like very much
be more. Right? this is like very much um how I orient myself towards like the
um how I orient myself towards like the red pill, but that doesn't mean that
red pill, but that doesn't mean that that's how I should orient myself
that's how I should orient myself towards Republicans, right? Like to
towards Republicans, right? Like to assume that the model that might be
assume that the model that might be effective with red pill men and what
effective with red pill men and what seems to be like a sal like it works
seems to be like a sal like it works really well isn't necessarily what's the
really well isn't necessarily what's the approach with Republicans, right? where
approach with Republicans, right? where if I go to my crazy neighbor Matt and I
if I go to my crazy neighbor Matt and I understand all of his feelings of why he
understand all of his feelings of why he distrusts Democrats and I'm like, "Yeah,
distrusts Democrats and I'm like, "Yeah, you know, they have done bad things and
you know, they have done bad things and I don't love everything Democrats have
I don't love everything Democrats have done and I am very critical of like
done and I am very critical of like their fakeness. In fact, probably too
their fakeness. In fact, probably too critical on and not critical enough of
critical on and not critical enough of Republicans because I love the left and
Republicans because I love the left and I care about it."
I care about it." Um, it feels like for him that will
Um, it feels like for him that will never make him go, "Oh, well, there's at
never make him go, "Oh, well, there's at least one good liberal, right?" He'll
least one good liberal, right?" He'll just kind of be like, "See, I'm right."
just kind of be like, "See, I'm right." And then when I push back, he basically
And then when I push back, he basically goes like, "La, I don't want to hear it.
goes like, "La, I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it. I don't want to
I don't want to hear it. I don't want to engage. I don't want to engage. And so
engage. I don't want to engage. And so then it's like, okay, well, I'm
then it's like, okay, well, I'm appealing to men that hate women through
appealing to men that hate women through their feelings essentially because they
their feelings essentially because they won't listen by facts until I care about
won't listen by facts until I care about their feelings. But I don't know if I'm
their feelings. But I don't know if I'm convinced anymore that the same can be
convinced anymore that the same can be done with like Republicans because their
done with like Republicans because their feelings, even if I can satiate them,
feelings, even if I can satiate them, don't change the fact that we're in
don't change the fact that we're in different realities. Yeah. But it's like
different realities. Yeah. But it's like in my mind, I'm like, but shouldn't it?
in my mind, I'm like, but shouldn't it? So I'm missing something. Basically, I
So I'm missing something. Basically, I know I'm missing something.
know I'm missing something. that goes bullying back in a weird not
that goes bullying back in a weird not bullying back. I don't want to say the
bullying back. I don't want to say the word bullying, but I feel like like
word bullying, but I feel like like there's like maybe maybe my my stature
there's like maybe maybe my my stature and voice and and just the way I present
and voice and and just the way I present myself comes off a little more like
myself comes off a little more like what, you know, one of those people
what, you know, one of those people would consider alpha or something like
would consider alpha or something like that. But I think that there is
that. But I think that there is something too to like hearing somebody
something too to like hearing somebody say something, oh, this is happening and
say something, oh, this is happening and say, shut the [ __ ] up. Like you have no
say, shut the [ __ ] up. Like you have no [ __ ] idea what you're talking about.
[ __ ] idea what you're talking about. Like just being that assertive about it
Like just being that assertive about it often changes And I think like someone
often changes And I think like someone like Bill Burr is a good example of that
like Bill Burr is a good example of that or like somebody who like has a more
or like somebody who like has a more masculine like like aggressive tone
masculine like like aggressive tone where like yeah I mean if you say we
where like yeah I mean if you say we would think we have no idea what he's
would think we have no idea what he's like in real life but we would think
like in real life but we would think that like if you you know said something
that like if you you know said something like no I I think Elon's got some good
like no I I think Elon's got some good points Bill Burr would just [ __ ] tell
points Bill Burr would just [ __ ] tell you shut the [ __ ] up and like and and
you shut the [ __ ] up and like and and you'd be like yeah okay. But but the
you'd be like yeah okay. But but the thing is about that though and this
thing is about that though and this speaks to the alpheness. I think all
speaks to the alpheness. I think all this is real like identity politics
this is real like identity politics plays like a role in this like it's
plays like a role in this like it's real, right? I noticed like even for me
real, right? I noticed like even for me like talking about sometimes like
like talking about sometimes like religious stuff or like self-improvement
religious stuff or like self-improvement sorts of things, right? There's like a
sorts of things, right? There's like a really large like very far-left and very
really large like very far-left and very queer audience that maybe that doesn't
queer audience that maybe that doesn't hear this, but like I'm saying it
hear this, but like I'm saying it literally just because the way I look
literally just because the way I look like does something, you know what I
like does something, you know what I mean? And there's like a there's a
mean? And there's like a there's a mixture of these sort of status signals
mixture of these sort of status signals and like kind of identifiers with
and like kind of identifiers with different communities that like there
different communities that like there there's this is true. this matter. It's
there's this is true. this matter. It's like it affects your message, you know?
like it affects your message, you know? Um, so like also with me it's like I
Um, so like also with me it's like I part of why I studied philosophy the way
part of why I studied philosophy the way that I did uh which was just
that I did uh which was just autodidactic and at home and it was like
autodidactic and at home and it was like yeah I was out of passion but also it's
yeah I was out of passion but also it's so that I could speak the language of
so that I could speak the language of some of these guys you know what I mean
some of these guys you know what I mean like I could you know I don't want to
like I could you know I don't want to say this because it's a kind of scary
say this because it's a kind of scary prospect in some ways and I'm not really
prospect in some ways and I'm not really sure but like if I spoke to Jordan
sure but like if I spoke to Jordan Peterson right um I know all the stories
Peterson right um I know all the stories he knows like I' I've read his books
he knows like I' I've read his books like I know the stuff you know I mean we
like I know the stuff you know I mean we can both talk pragmatism It's just I
can both talk pragmatism It's just I will use the exact same language to
will use the exact same language to point it at like well obviously the
point it at like well obviously the non-binary people are a pragmatic
non-binary people are a pragmatic category obviously right like what do we
category obviously right like what do we you know what I mean like what are we
you know what I mean like what are we doing like there there's so rendering
doing like there there's so rendering yourself able that's that in itself is
yourself able that's that in itself is also like a kind of status thing and so
also like a kind of status thing and so I think what's part of that is um for
I think what's part of that is um for you and something I think is important
you and something I think is important actually is demonstration of competence
actually is demonstration of competence okay so here's the thing is like the uh
okay so here's the thing is like the uh democracy um it's about persuasion right
democracy um it's about persuasion right it's about persuading the voters. Like
it's about persuading the voters. Like that's the job, right? Because the whole
that's the job, right? Because the whole point is instead of violence, we're
point is instead of violence, we're going to use persuasion. And then what
going to use persuasion. And then what we're having a conversation here about a
we're having a conversation here about a little bit is getting a little bit we're
little bit is getting a little bit we're starting to forget that that's like the
starting to forget that that's like the democracy. And I'm saying not like us,
democracy. And I'm saying not like us, but like democracy is forgetting that
but like democracy is forgetting that because you're realizing that and and in
because you're realizing that and and in some cases it's probably just straight
some cases it's probably just straight up real where it's like I can't persuade
up real where it's like I can't persuade Marjorie Taylor Green. It's not
Marjorie Taylor Green. It's not possible. And I think we are definitely
possible. And I think we are definitely seeing the rise in America of a Mauist
seeing the rise in America of a Mauist cult of personality that is get to the
cult of personality that is get to the point of like now we have to fight these
point of like now we have to fight these guys because I think that is I think
guys because I think that is I think that's a close I I don't know it's
that's a close I I don't know it's fascinating to me that I haven't heard
fascinating to me that I haven't heard anyone say this that like the person in
anyone say this that like the person in history that Trump reminds me of the
history that Trump reminds me of the most is clearly like Mao like clearly
most is clearly like Mao like clearly this cult of personality thing like the
this cult of personality thing like the only line between like you know their
only line between like you know their kind of um the way things played out for
kind of um the way things played out for them is you know when Mao was out of
them is you know when Mao was out of power he actually went on the airwaves
power he actually went on the airwaves and said it is legal to kill these guys.
and said it is legal to kill these guys. Go do it. Like these are not the real
Go do it. Like these are not the real rulers. And Trump just like pussi it out
rulers. And Trump just like pussi it out because like he didn't quite want to go
because like he didn't quite want to go that step yet, you know? So like but
that step yet, you know? So like but like to think he would do like imagine
like to think he would do like imagine like if he said that like he can
like if he said that like he can mobilize people like he has that power
mobilize people like he has that power this like you know like black eye
this like you know like black eye hypnotism power and this is just
hypnotism power and this is just something that I'm living through in my
something that I'm living through in my lifetime and there's a point where
lifetime and there's a point where that's just outside of my control like
that's just outside of my control like I'm just watching this. we're in this
I'm just watching this. we're in this part of the karmic cycle like this is
part of the karmic cycle like this is happening and there's no wiggling around
happening and there's no wiggling around that to that end um you know the second
that to that end um you know the second Trump presidency incumbent kingdom like
Trump presidency incumbent kingdom like I am more politicized like I'm like it's
I am more politicized like I'm like it's time to do some work and to do that work
time to do some work and to do that work but I think that that work does look
but I think that that work does look like persuasion because that's the thing
like persuasion because that's the thing right where it's like it is um half the
right where it's like it is um half the population voted for him so it's like
population voted for him so it's like now it's like I can't is this my c my
now it's like I can't is this my c my nation I say my nation broadly as like a
nation I say my nation broadly as like a north north American And um you know I
north north American And um you know I guess we're becoming quite more distinct
guess we're becoming quite more distinct and separate now but um or you might be
and separate now but um or you might be a state so you know one one or the other
a state so you know one one or the other Canadian not funny the joke funny really
Canadian not funny the joke funny really I was like um but uh but but yeah I
I was like um but uh but but yeah I think the task is like persuasion and to
think the task is like persuasion and to that end like when you talked about like
that end like when you talked about like how do you change people's facts I don't
how do you change people's facts I don't think it is [ __ ] about facts it's
think it is [ __ ] about facts it's about persuasion I don't think it's ever
about persuasion I don't think it's ever really necessarily been about facts like
really necessarily been about facts like we have this assumption that it's about
we have this assumption that it's about rational actors and appealing to their
rational actors and appealing to their rationality. I've always said it's about
rationality. I've always said it's about feelings, but I think it's more than
feelings, but I think it's more than feelings. This is the thing that I um I
feelings. This is the thing that I um I can take from like the you know this
can take from like the you know this incredible escalation and
incredible escalation and crystallization of the um cult of
crystallization of the um cult of personality like political movement that
personality like political movement that is like Trump's empire or whatever. Um
is like Trump's empire or whatever. Um like it is speaking to a a yearning for
like it is speaking to a a yearning for mythology. Like I think that's really
mythology. Like I think that's really it's not even because people are making
it's not even because people are making this mistake that people have the wrong
this mistake that people have the wrong fact. They're so crazy that they believe
fact. They're so crazy that they believe these crazy facts, but even uh
these crazy facts, but even uh flat-earthers aren't aren't doing that.
flat-earthers aren't aren't doing that. Like they don't believe the fact that
Like they don't believe the fact that the earth is flat. They're participating
the earth is flat. They're participating in a community and like this kind of
in a community and like this kind of mythology that is like a mode of being
mythology that is like a mode of being and it gives them parties to go to and
and it gives them parties to go to and it gives them meaning and [ __ ] And so
it gives them meaning and [ __ ] And so like that's why you go like uh this is
like that's why you go like uh this is why and same with like you know when you
why and same with like you know when you have like Supreme Leader Putin or like
have like Supreme Leader Putin or like Supreme Leader Mao, you're like and also
Supreme Leader Mao, you're like and also I bet he could beat um everyone in an
I bet he could beat um everyone in an arm wrestle and he's the fastest runner
arm wrestle and he's the fastest runner and he can jump the highest. you just
and he can jump the highest. you just start doing all this [ __ ] because it's
start doing all this [ __ ] because it's it's not because you believe those
it's not because you believe those facts. It's like you're being swept up
facts. It's like you're being swept up in a mythology. And so I think that uh
in a mythology. And so I think that uh mythology actually in is the way to
mythology actually in is the way to appeal to people. Um and that that's the
appeal to people. Um and that that's the kind of persuasion you have to do is
kind of persuasion you have to do is performance where in like that we're in
performance where in like that we're in the age of attention. It is like kind of
the age of attention. It is like kind of about this. And so this comes in a lot
about this. And so this comes in a lot of forms, but I don't think it is about
of forms, but I don't think it is about even sometimes like like debate or
even sometimes like like debate or getting your facts through with someone.
getting your facts through with someone. I think it is about like performance and
I think it is about like performance and influence. So like genuinely you um
influence. So like genuinely you um being so successful and multivaried in
being so successful and multivaried in your like uh many many endeavors um you
your like uh many many endeavors um you know money you are competent. I think
know money you are competent. I think that's the strongest message. I think
that's the strongest message. I think that's something that's where Jordan
that's something that's where Jordan Peterson's just right but the left needs
Peterson's just right but the left needs him. You know what I mean? Cuz we have
him. You know what I mean? Cuz we have to demonstrate competence in like a
to demonstrate competence in like a better story. And I think that's the
better story. And I think that's the thing right like that's why I can I can
thing right like that's why I can I can move people farther left. I've seen that
move people farther left. I've seen that I'm capable of doing that right. you are
I'm capable of doing that right. you are capable of make discrediting these
capable of make discrediting these people by saying man [ __ ] you but that's
people by saying man [ __ ] you but that's your charisma right um and why is that I
your charisma right um and why is that I think it is the demonstration of
think it is the demonstration of competence I think it's quality and it's
competence I think it's quality and it's performance and it's enchanting people
performance and it's enchanting people and that's what you have to do is not
and that's what you have to do is not even convince them but like you know so
even convince them but like you know so like I really do think like um even like
like I really do think like um even like um Mark Carney right the new uh Canadian
um Mark Carney right the new uh Canadian prime minister I uh I hope he wins uh
prime minister I uh I hope he wins uh and I think one of the big strengths of
and I think one of the big strengths of him like bringing this Liberal party
him like bringing this Liberal party back to life and as a force that could
back to life and as a force that could you know help our country and kind of,
you know help our country and kind of, you know, defend against Trump and be a
you know, defend against Trump and be a force in the world that like creates a
force in the world that like creates a sort of cultural identity and like a
sort of cultural identity and like a kind of mythology that like kind of
kind of mythology that like kind of combats this like nefarious bottomless
combats this like nefarious bottomless one. I think like is just the competence
one. I think like is just the competence like the competence in the snark that's
like the competence in the snark that's what he's serving and that's what feels
what he's serving and that's what feels good, right? It's like I'm obviously
good, right? It's like I'm obviously competent. I think you got to and this
competent. I think you got to and this is another thing where it's like the
is another thing where it's like the left kind of having this sort of anyone
left kind of having this sort of anyone that has like a million dollars is like
that has like a million dollars is like part of the enemies, right? not being
part of the enemies, right? not being able to distinguish between like first
able to distinguish between like first of all a person uh that uh that a person
of all a person uh that uh that a person like first of all a person with a
like first of all a person with a million dollars congratulations you need
million dollars congratulations you need that to retire everybody needs that to
that to retire everybody needs that to retire you need that so that's yeah yeah
retire you need that so that's yeah yeah know so so there's that so first of all
know so so there's that so first of all a million dollars it's like okay so that
a million dollars it's like okay so that for a random individual person even it's
for a random individual person even it's like you need that and then when it let
like you need that and then when it let alone talking about like a business or
alone talking about like a business or like an organization that like you know
like an organization that like you know that takes in like $20 million but it's
that takes in like $20 million but it's not like personal it's not in your bank
not like personal it's not in your bank account like this is operations money.
account like this is operations money. Some things cost that much. Net worth of
Some things cost that much. Net worth of a million dollars is like, "Oh, so you
a million dollars is like, "Oh, so you live in the suburbs." Like, you know,
live in the suburbs." Like, you know, that's like and and so like you we need
that's like and and so like you we need to get over our like allergy I'm
to get over our like allergy I'm speaking on behalf of the leftist like
speaking on behalf of the leftist like get over our allergy to like successful
get over our allergy to like successful people and successful institutions
people and successful institutions because you [ __ ] need those. That's
because you [ __ ] need those. That's what you're trying to build, right? And
what you're trying to build, right? And to distinguish between that and like
to distinguish between that and like what how much a billion is, you know?
what how much a billion is, you know? And uh so that's like and and and and
And uh so that's like and and and and because I don't think that I think
because I don't think that I think that's the way to convince that person
that's the way to convince that person too. I think that's the way to um break
too. I think that's the way to um break into the heart of this person that's
into the heart of this person that's like you you want to see my Trump like
like you you want to see my Trump like action figure or whatever. Um is like
action figure or whatever. Um is like you can't really directly do it
you can't really directly do it necessarily. You have to kind of be cool
necessarily. You have to kind of be cool and successful and strong and like and
and successful and strong and like and and be like united like have a vision.
and be like united like have a vision. you actually have to represent something
you actually have to represent something and then you know you see those people
and then you know you see those people like those people do exist like the
like those people do exist like the splitting at the voting booth being like
splitting at the voting booth being like for abortion and for Trump and the
for abortion and for Trump and the people that like vote for AOC and vote
people that like vote for AOC and vote for Trump like those people are here um
for Trump like those people are here um and I just think that yeah that's
and I just think that yeah that's yearning for mythology you know I mean
yearning for mythology you know I mean and they kind of say it's like
and they kind of say it's like authenticity I don't know it's it's I
authenticity I don't know it's it's I would say it's like fundamentally not if
would say it's like fundamentally not if you're if you're yearning for mythology
you're if you're yearning for mythology you're you're yearning for like a some
you're you're yearning for like a some level of greater noun and meaning well I
level of greater noun and meaning well I think it's it's that and that that in
think it's it's that and that that in that greater meaning though I think that
that greater meaning though I think that people do detect it and this is again
people do detect it and this is again using like Petersonian verbage here like
using like Petersonian verbage here like but is like the really real like the why
but is like the really real like the why am I alive real you know what I mean and
am I alive real you know what I mean and that's the you know that's a value
that's the you know that's a value that's why he like muddies the
that's why he like muddies the definition of truth right is like what
definition of truth right is like what about that thing what about that
about that thing what about that animating thing the thing that like
animating thing the thing that like makes people act that changes the world
makes people act that changes the world you know um I think people uh want that
you know um I think people uh want that and they're getting a version of that
and they're getting a version of that with this and then the only way to fight
with this and then the only way to fight is you have to um you know provide
is you have to um you know provide something like meaningful and exciting
something like meaningful and exciting and like you know yeah I like I don't
and like you know yeah I like I don't know I'm tampering out here but
know I'm tampering out here but like it's enchantment I think it's
like it's enchantment I think it's enchanting like you don't even persuade
enchanting like you don't even persuade definitely not rationally and not even
definitely not rationally and not even getting validating their feelings to
getting validating their feelings to like persuade an individual person I
like persuade an individual person I think you have to enchant people yeah
think you have to enchant people yeah like with the with majesty like
like with the with majesty like performance like magic like god you know
performance like magic like god you know cuz that's what they're doing like
cuz that's what they're doing like they're we're entering almost like a a
they're we're entering almost like a a monarchy phase of like collective
monarchy phase of like collective consciousness where we're yearning for
consciousness where we're yearning for kings
kings You know what I mean? And so like, you
You know what I mean? And so like, you know, I think that then the version of
know, I think that then the version of that that is pro-democracy is like uh
that that is pro-democracy is like uh this is why I talk about but like
this is why I talk about but like culture, but having like high status
culture, but having like high status figures that you're not constantly
figures that you're not constantly trying to rip apart that you're happy
trying to rip apart that you're happy that they're successful and that are
that they're successful and that are enchanting and they're exciting and you
enchanting and they're exciting and you want to emulate them. And that's what I
want to emulate them. And that's what I think the left [ __ ] doesn't have
think the left [ __ ] doesn't have right now or like they need to build is
right now or like they need to build is have there's no there's no unifying
have there's no there's no unifying thing that it represents that people are
thing that it represents that people are fighting for. It's just like a a
fighting for. It's just like a a rejection and a fighting against um some
rejection and a fighting against um some other greater known. There's nothing to
other greater known. There's nothing to rally behind truly like at all in a way
rally behind truly like at all in a way that's meaningful, right? Like if Kla
that's meaningful, right? Like if Kla and Biden go like rally behind us, we
and Biden go like rally behind us, we want to keep everything the same.
want to keep everything the same. Everyone's like no, we don't want where
Everyone's like no, we don't want where the hunger is. That's not where the
the hunger is. That's not where the hunger is. So it's it's an enchanting
hunger is. So it's it's an enchanting promise of living a better life. Well, I
promise of living a better life. Well, I also I think that like just due to the
also I think that like just due to the rights the like the way that they fight
rights the like the way that they fight is almost entirely using fear and that's
is almost entirely using fear and that's and they gain a lot of success from it.
and they gain a lot of success from it. And so I I feel like like Joe Biden
And so I I feel like like Joe Biden winning the presidency um in 2020 was
winning the presidency um in 2020 was like it made a lot of sense because like
like it made a lot of sense because like it's a return to normaly. It's like okay
it's a return to normaly. It's like okay we're exhausted from and like right now
we're exhausted from and like right now like I would find it hard to believe
like I would find it hard to believe that a lot that a lot of people on the
that a lot that a lot of people on the right aren't exhausted from Trump. I
right aren't exhausted from Trump. I mean literally I I looked at the news
mean literally I I looked at the news this morning and he's he's threatening
this morning and he's he's threatening nuclear war against Iran. And it's like
nuclear war against Iran. And it's like shut the [ __ ] up. like what wherever you
shut the [ __ ] up. like what wherever you are on this political spectrum after all
are on this political spectrum after all the [ __ ] with the tariffs after
the [ __ ] with the tariffs after everything else like it people do they
everything else like it people do they do get Trump exhaustion and that shows
do get Trump exhaustion and that shows like that's what I mean that's what
like that's what I mean that's what turned Georgia into a purple state is
turned Georgia into a purple state is people are just tired of it whereas they
people are just tired of it whereas they you know before that they were deeply
you know before that they were deeply Republican here. Um, yeah. And it's I
Republican here. Um, yeah. And it's I don't know. And it's the thing is it's
don't know. And it's the thing is it's just not a linear rational decision.
just not a linear rational decision. Like I think it's it really is you have
Like I think it's it really is you have to put like that's what my feeling has
to put like that's what my feeling has always been about Trump that uh upset me
always been about Trump that uh upset me just in 2016. The kind of maybe the
just in 2016. The kind of maybe the first time I was really kind of
first time I was really kind of politicized like watching that happen.
politicized like watching that happen. Um, and it was like my frustration was
Um, and it was like my frustration was like I mean it's just so dark. It was
like I mean it's just so dark. It was just so dark. Something like so uh dark
just so dark. Something like so uh dark in us was like prayed upon and it's the
in us was like prayed upon and it's the laughter and it's like the excitement
laughter and it's like the excitement and then watching other people like the
and then watching other people like the thing that depressed me a lot was like
thing that depressed me a lot was like that moment where like Joe Biden was
that moment where like Joe Biden was like shut up man. like you had that
like shut up man. like you had that thing and it made me sad because it was
thing and it made me sad because it was like my feeling has always been it's
like my feeling has always been it's like you got to just put like a a very
like you got to just put like a a very competent and impressive adult in the
competent and impressive adult in the room and then you have to behave like
room and then you have to behave like that. You know what I mean? And so but I
that. You know what I mean? And so but I guess that's sort of that Bill Bur thing
guess that's sort of that Bill Bur thing I was talking about where where he was
I was talking about where where he was just like would you shut up man and he
just like would you shut up man and he like he actually you know sort of sat on
like he actually you know sort of sat on Trump's head for a second and it really
Trump's head for a second and it really made Trump look tiny. But I don't think
made Trump look tiny. But I don't think you can win in like that. I don't think
you can win in like that. I don't think we can win like that and that's not I
we can win like that and that's not I don't think that's the like I think
don't think that's the like I think that's a degenerative impulse. That's
that's a degenerative impulse. That's the attention impulse. I feel like what
the attention impulse. I feel like what wins that inevitably is going to be like
wins that inevitably is going to be like Elon Musk and Trump. Like I think if
Elon Musk and Trump. Like I think if you're playing the attention game, if
you're playing the attention game, if you're playing like like you know just
you're playing like like you know just purely like trying to dunk like that's
purely like trying to dunk like that's the version that's violence to me. It's
the version that's violence to me. It's the same thing, right? Cuz it's just the
the same thing, right? Cuz it's just the you know what I mean? Um it has to be an
you know what I mean? Um it has to be an appeal to beauty and like put that
appeal to beauty and like put that beside someone like that's what's
beside someone like that's what's happening right now with Mark Carney and
happening right now with Mark Carney and Pierre Palev, right? Is like that's
Pierre Palev, right? Is like that's actually the the prevailing narrative.
actually the the prevailing narrative. kind of working is Mark Carney's coming
kind of working is Mark Carney's coming in like this very competent person with
in like this very competent person with a ridiculous amount of experience and is
a ridiculous amount of experience and is like being excessively pragmatic and
like being excessively pragmatic and then he's being like and Pier probably
then he's being like and Pier probably all he can say is like complain about
all he can say is like complain about like Trudeau it's just fear fear fear
like Trudeau it's just fear fear fear and people sometimes when you and this
and people sometimes when you and this is my belief this is my faith I guess
is my belief this is my faith I guess that I'm staking my life on that gives
that I'm staking my life on that gives my life some meaning and promise for the
my life some meaning and promise for the future is my belief is when you put
future is my belief is when you put something beautiful besides something
something beautiful besides something that is ugly people respond to the
that is ugly people respond to the beautiful thing I and I know that's
beautiful thing I and I know that's insane faith but like that's what I
insane faith but like that's what I think you know So that's my hope. That's
think you know So that's my hope. That's the to the a good I guess a good
the to the a good I guess a good question for me the born American uh in
question for me the born American uh in the middle of two Canadians born
the middle of two Canadians born Canadians. What um we this looks like an
Canadians. What um we this looks like an album cover by the way. I realized a
album cover by the way. I realized a while ago like this is one of your album
while ago like this is one of your album covers. Yeah. What uh this wasn't on
covers. Yeah. What uh this wasn't on purpose. So I guess like how do you how
purpose. So I guess like how do you how did it like well I guess like starting
did it like well I guess like starting from from you since you currently live
from from you since you currently live in Canada and and I'm assuming you're a
in Canada and and I'm assuming you're a proud Canadian. Um, what how did it feel
proud Canadian. Um, what how did it feel to hear a serious
to hear a serious threat talk conversation about Canada
threat talk conversation about Canada becoming a state? Like how like because
becoming a state? Like how like because yeah, when you said like, "Oh, that's
yeah, when you said like, "Oh, that's still a new joke." Um, I it it actually
still a new joke." Um, I it it actually made me like, you know, I don't I don't
made me like, you know, I don't I don't think I ever like had I I mean, the way
think I ever like had I I mean, the way that I think of it is it's obviously
that I think of it is it's obviously going to be very differently than the
going to be very differently than the way that that a Canadian thinks of it
way that that a Canadian thinks of it probably. Maybe. But um yeah, like how
probably. Maybe. But um yeah, like how did it was there like did did you
did it was there like did did you entertain the idea? No. No. Was it just
entertain the idea? No. No. Was it just like it was [ __ ] horrible and
like it was [ __ ] horrible and heartbreaking? I guess. Okay. Well, a
heartbreaking? I guess. Okay. Well, a better question. If it came from
better question. If it came from uh Obama,
uh Obama, would you entertain? It's still
would you entertain? It's still insulting. Yeah. I'm wondering like
insulting. Yeah. I'm wondering like would you entertain the fact that it
would you entertain the fact that it came from Obama? Canadian identity. I
came from Obama? Canadian identity. I have never seen it so like strong. I've
have never seen it so like strong. I've never I've never in my whole life
never I've never in my whole life actually because we are a little bit
actually because we are a little bit like blas P about a lot of that thing
like blas P about a lot of that thing and like generally we're on a path
and like generally we're on a path towards increased friendship and
towards increased friendship and integration with America. That's
integration with America. That's generally the world and generally like
generally the world and generally like we have this kind of performative well
we have this kind of performative well we're not America anti-Americanism just
we're not America anti-Americanism just kind of baked into our cultural
kind of baked into our cultural identity. But really though like people
identity. But really though like people feel positively about America there like
feel positively about America there like those are friends. There's like
those are friends. There's like extremely stalwart uh trading partners.
extremely stalwart uh trading partners. We go there for shopping and we do
We go there for shopping and we do business there and we go there for
business there and we go there for concerts and it's great. And when you
concerts and it's great. And when you meet, you know, when you meet Americans,
meet, you know, when you meet Americans, like there's just like they're the same
like there's just like they're the same culture fundamentally, you know. Um,
culture fundamentally, you know. Um, we're just a little better than you
we're just a little better than you guys. That's typically that's the that's
guys. That's typically that's the that's that's the feeling is we're calmer and
that's the feeling is we're calmer and we're a little morally better and a
we're a little morally better and a little nicer and stuff. Um, no, but the
little nicer and stuff. Um, no, but the heartbreak is is that like the American
heartbreak is is that like the American I don't know the uh is the the
I don't know the uh is the the hostility. It's it's very obviously not
hostility. It's it's very obviously not coming from the American people like and
coming from the American people like and literally like I was um just in like
literally like I was um just in like upstate New York uh recently and just
upstate New York uh recently and just like seeing people I know this is very
like seeing people I know this is very north and very liberal kind of place but
north and very liberal kind of place but people were just like how are you same
people were just like how are you same question like how are you feeling? They
question like how are you feeling? They were like we don't know what to do like
were like we don't know what to do like we're so sorry you know like genuinely
we're so sorry you know like genuinely like like they're like we don't have a
like like they're like we don't have a problem with you and I got to be the
problem with you and I got to be the Canadian representative you like and we
Canadian representative you like and we don't have a problem with the American
don't have a problem with the American people like at all. This is such a prime
people like at all. This is such a prime example of what we were talking about
example of what we were talking about earlier is where Trump literally clearly
earlier is where Trump literally clearly just made a joke like with Justin
just made a joke like with Justin Trudeau like become the 51st state and
Trudeau like become the 51st state and then it gets a reaction and he's like oh
then it gets a reaction and he's like oh this is about me now and he's like okay
this is about me now and he's like okay so I'll keep pulling the threads that
so I'll keep pulling the threads that get big reaction and so you know just
get big reaction and so you know just knowing that as the world kind of
knowing that as the world kind of crumbles and it start goes to fall in on
crumbles and it start goes to fall in on him and he becomes the most important
him and he becomes the most important person in the universe and he's holding
person in the universe and he's holding these levers that are making big things
these levers that are making big things move he's like something's going to
move he's like something's going to happen you know what I mean if I never
happen you know what I mean if I never admit I'm wrong and I just keep you know
admit I'm wrong and I just keep you know doing everything gets a big reaction and
doing everything gets a big reaction and so the This terrifying sad thing is I'm
so the This terrifying sad thing is I'm scared of what your country is like
scared of what your country is like doing to itself. And like I can't
doing to itself. And like I can't believe for the first time in my entire
believe for the first time in my entire [ __ ] life that America is not my
[ __ ] life that America is not my country's best friend. Like I can't
country's best friend. Like I can't believe that like the world has changed
believe that like the world has changed and it's not going to go back for like a
and it's not going to go back for like a while cuz we have to change our whole
while cuz we have to change our whole [ __ ] economy. Maybe we have to. We
[ __ ] economy. Maybe we have to. We can't trust. Yeah. Well, I'm a big fan.
can't trust. Yeah. Well, I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan of state rights. Like I I
I'm a big fan of state rights. Like I I do think that states should be allowed
do think that states should be allowed to be different than from you know I I
to be different than from you know I I do think that there should be less laws
do think that there should be less laws that force states to like it and I I
that force states to like it and I I even even though and I think that a lot
even even though and I think that a lot of times that works in in the favor of
of times that works in in the favor of of what I believe in politically and a
of what I believe in politically and a lot of times that works very against it
lot of times that works very against it like like you know I I could see an
like like you know I I could see an argument for like a state where 70 or
argument for like a state where 70 or 80% of people are pro-life that maybe
80% of people are pro-life that maybe you know they should have the right to
you know they should have the right to democracy consider I actually talked to
democracy consider I actually talked to there was I was even just I I speaking
there was I was even just I I speaking to like a law student like Harvard. I
to like a law student like Harvard. I remember when uh Roie Wade was
remember when uh Roie Wade was overturned and one of the things that
overturned and one of the things that they said is like and this is very left
they said is like and this is very left to people, all of them, right? And
to people, all of them, right? And they're like, we all kind of knew that
they're like, we all kind of knew that it was a little, you know what I mean?
it was a little, you know what I mean? Getting that in there on the federal
Getting that in there on the federal level, you know, like from a legal
level, you know, like from a legal perspective, you know, and so it's like
perspective, you know, and so it's like you can strongarm it for like the
you can strongarm it for like the greater good because you believe it's
greater good because you believe it's moral, that's fine. But sometimes also
moral, that's fine. But sometimes also it's like listen, if a if and like if
it's like listen, if a if and like if just make it purely theoretical, 90% of
just make it purely theoretical, 90% of like a country is like we morally
like a country is like we morally believe this is wrong and they vote for
believe this is wrong and they vote for that. I'm like well that's what that is.
that. I'm like well that's what that is. I think you know. Yeah. Yeah. But so
I think you know. Yeah. Yeah. But so like but then you have to persuade
like but then you have to persuade people. That's the actual task you have.
people. That's the actual task you have. That's the thing and that's the thing is
That's the thing and that's the thing is like it fell apart because they didn't
like it fell apart because they didn't do the real job which was actually
do the real job which was actually persuade people you know it wasn't done.
persuade people you know it wasn't done. So it was and so yeah within those state
So it was and so yeah within those state rights like we we do you know as America
rights like we we do you know as America is a republic with 50 democracies right?
is a republic with 50 democracies right? So like that's that's what it was
So like that's that's what it was initially supposed to be. Like I I get
initially supposed to be. Like I I get really depressed and anxious at borders,
really depressed and anxious at borders, like land borders, like for some like
like land borders, like for some like the mo the Canadian border mostly cuz
the mo the Canadian border mostly cuz like they do [ __ ] like cut open your cut
like they do [ __ ] like cut open your cut open your uh uh air mattresses and crap
open your uh uh air mattresses and crap like just from like touring where you're
like just from like touring where you're just like, "Oh my god."
just like, "Oh my god." But Mexico like yeah like few years ago
But Mexico like yeah like few years ago uh I drove with a friend from like one
uh I drove with a friend from like one end of the country so basically like
end of the country so basically like along the wall the entire Mexican wall
along the wall the entire Mexican wall and it just felt so like you know
and it just felt so like you know culture down m unless you're like in a
culture down m unless you're like in a major city the culture near the Mexican
major city the culture near the Mexican border like in southern Texas and
border like in southern Texas and southern Arizona like southern New
southern Arizona like southern New Mexico everybody speaks Spanish like cuz
Mexico everybody speaks Spanish like cuz they were Mexican like at one point and
they were Mexican like at one point and so it's like there the only difference
so it's like there the only difference is that a long time ago some some
is that a long time ago some some powerful people decided that this is
powerful people decided that this is where that these people are are going to
where that these people are are going to be of this class and these people are
be of this class and these people are going to be of another. And so it's kind
going to be of another. And so it's kind of funny cuz like when I hear when I
of funny cuz like when I hear when I heard that ridiculous rhetoric of like
heard that ridiculous rhetoric of like well we'll just make Canada a state. It
well we'll just make Canada a state. It it was like part of me was like just
it was like part of me was like just that like I guess more libertarian part
that like I guess more libertarian part of me was just like yeah borders are
of me was just like yeah borders are dumb. Yeah. like like even a broken
dumb. Yeah. like like even a broken clock is right twice a day, you know,
clock is right twice a day, you know, like but cuz but when you think about it
like but cuz but when you think about it like when you think about what we are
like when you think about what we are actually worried about with China and
actually worried about with China and what we're actually like I mean in the
what we're actually like I mean in the 90s and early 2000s the European Union
90s and early 2000s the European Union was actually massive threat. It's like
was actually massive threat. It's like whoa whoa whoa you guys can't all just
whoa whoa whoa you guys can't all just become one [ __ ] currency like yeah
become one [ __ ] currency like yeah gez what's happening? Um it's like well
gez what's happening? Um it's like well yeah like there's a lot of people south
yeah like there's a lot of people south of America that want to come north to
of America that want to come north to work and there's a lot of there's a
work and there's a lot of there's a workforce participation in America and
workforce participation in America and in Canada is at historic lows. It's like
in Canada is at historic lows. It's like all of this makes perfect sense. It's
all of this makes perfect sense. It's not one gigantic because like and
not one gigantic because like and culturally too like the the line like
culturally too like the the line like you said with Mexico the line doesn't
you said with Mexico the line doesn't change culture. The culture is
change culture. The culture is geographical. So it's like Toronto and
geographical. So it's like Toronto and New York are very quite similar. It was
New York are very quite similar. It was very different obviously, but like
very different obviously, but like really like especially like you know
really like especially like you know upstate New York and Ontario where I
upstate New York and Ontario where I live. They're the [ __ ] same and see
live. They're the [ __ ] same and see Vancouver. It's fine. And so I'm so pro
Vancouver. It's fine. And so I'm so pro that I'm also I'm 50% of my audience is
that I'm also I'm 50% of my audience is in America. I care a lot about America.
in America. I care a lot about America. I'm invested in it, you know, and I want
I'm invested in it, you know, and I want to work there. So like I would have only
to work there. So like I would have only cared about like deepening the ties. Um
cared about like deepening the ties. Um the thing that I think is al of course
the thing that I think is al of course like in an objective rational vacuum
like in an objective rational vacuum somewhere we're talking like a
somewhere we're talking like a theoretical conversation about deepening
theoretical conversation about deepening the trenches between our or not trenches
the trenches between our or not trenches the opposite of that um bonds between
the opposite of that um bonds between our countries and stuff but like the a
our countries and stuff but like the a clear thing again that sometimes it
clear thing again that sometimes it surprises me just like the discourse
surprises me just like the discourse that Trump manages to generate around
that Trump manages to generate around himself where people aren't pointing to
himself where people aren't pointing to the most obvious thing where it's like
the most obvious thing where it's like he's trying to bring imperialism back
he's trying to bring imperialism back like that's the thing right that's the
like that's the thing right that's the thing he likes the idea he could acquire
thing he likes the idea he could acquire more land. Yeah. He's just trying to
more land. Yeah. He's just trying to normalize. So Canada, Greenland. He's
normalize. So Canada, Greenland. He's like that's great, right? So of course
like that's great, right? So of course he's going to be on the side of like,
he's going to be on the side of like, you know, blowing out the Gaza Strip and
you know, blowing out the Gaza Strip and just the building. He's like he wants
just the building. He's like he wants imperialism to be back because he's a
imperialism to be back because he's a monarch. Like that's his clear thing. So
monarch. Like that's his clear thing. So we're not talking at all about the ties,
we're not talking at all about the ties, the relationship between our countries.
the relationship between our countries. We're just talking about active
We're just talking about active aggression and subjugation and like
aggression and subjugation and like empire, you know, and so you can't No,
empire, you know, and so you can't No, you can't entertain that for a second.
you can't entertain that for a second. Like this is a you need strong cultural.
Like this is a you need strong cultural. Yeah. There's a very big difference
Yeah. There's a very big difference between like for example like cuz I'm
between like for example like cuz I'm from Alberta right which is um like
from Alberta right which is um like obviously Canada's very culturally
obviously Canada's very culturally homogeneous in a lot of ways but also
homogeneous in a lot of ways but also culturally distinct in that like a lot
culturally distinct in that like a lot of prairie provinces are very frustrated
of prairie provinces are very frustrated with like Ontario and Quebec for example
with like Ontario and Quebec for example because we basically have no say or
because we basically have no say or power at a federal level despite being
power at a federal level despite being some of the most important like economic
some of the most important like economic resources.
resources. Um I like how how Cora is just
Um I like how how Cora is just introducing herself to the world as an
introducing herself to the world as an idiot right now. Like that's just like
idiot right now. Like that's just like literally like anybody watching this
literally like anybody watching this just like that dog is dumb. What's
just like that dog is dumb. What's happening? And Lucy's like, "God, I hate
happening? And Lucy's like, "God, I hate her." So yeah. Um yeah, there's some And
her." So yeah. Um yeah, there's some And by the way, and in Alberta, in a few
by the way, and in Alberta, in a few places, there's a little bit of like,
places, there's a little bit of like, "Yeah, I owe America." Like they're very
"Yeah, I owe America." Like they're very Alberta would be a lot more. Most
Alberta would be a lot more. Most Albertans at home when they hear that
Albertans at home when they hear that there's a frustration at the imperialist
there's a frustration at the imperialist kind of um we can just breach your
kind of um we can just breach your sovereignty and there's nothing you can
sovereignty and there's nothing you can do about it. na boooo kind of thing
do about it. na boooo kind of thing where it's kind of like a that's
where it's kind of like a that's literally true militar at a military
literally true militar at a military level like America could just dumpster
level like America could just dumpster Canada you have a big rocket launcher
Canada you have a big rocket launcher like that's true like no question about
like that's true like no question about it in fact America can dumpster any
it in fact America can dumpster any country that it wants to because it it
country that it wants to because it it traded essentially its position in the
traded essentially its position in the hierarchy at the top for uh no
hierarchy at the top for uh no healthcare but high military spending
healthcare but high military spending and NATO and everyone else got to trade
and NATO and everyone else got to trade getting to not spend on military
getting to not spend on military contracted It is a it was a blood pack.
contracted It is a it was a blood pack. That's the thing that first complicated
That's the thing that first complicated my sort of like uh you know my broadly
my sort of like uh you know my broadly just like anarchctic like communist like
just like anarchctic like communist like just leftist leftist leftist without
just leftist leftist leftist without having examined much and that happened
having examined much and that happened because I got a YouTube channel people
because I got a YouTube channel people started repeating stuff I said so it's
started repeating stuff I said so it's just a responsibility I was like I
just a responsibility I was like I should read the book but like uh that
should read the book but like uh that was one of the first things that
was one of the first things that complicated for it for me was I was like
complicated for it for me was I was like being like yeah America empire and like
being like yeah America empire and like it's you know like the police state of
it's you know like the police state of the world it's bad it's military bases
the world it's bad it's military bases are everywhere and I realized I was like
are everywhere and I realized I was like my country just like just took that
my country just like just took that we're just like thank you like you just
we're just like thank you like you just contracted that to be ours and we just
contracted that to be ours and we just don't have it. And it's tough because
don't have it. And it's tough because the reality is that like if the world
the reality is that like if the world was a different place, we wouldn't need
was a different place, we wouldn't need police and we wouldn't need global
police and we wouldn't need global police, but the world is not a different
police, but the world is not a different place and there is some need for it
place and there is some need for it because there like are people um who
because there like are people um who have hatred enough that they want to
have hatred enough that they want to kill and we're in America like we we we
kill and we're in America like we we we see that even within America, right? And
see that even within America, right? And so it's this really difficult tenuous
so it's this really difficult tenuous relationship where Alberta and very much
relationship where Alberta and very much is kind of like a neglected golden child
is kind of like a neglected golden child in many ways or whether it's gives gives
in many ways or whether it's gives gives gives there's actual economic re
gives there's actual economic re repayment systems that go out. So,
repayment systems that go out. So, Albertans are very, very frustrated with
Albertans are very, very frustrated with Canada. And so, a lot of my family at
Canada. And so, a lot of my family at home is like, "Honestly, if we could
home is like, "Honestly, if we could vote, I'd probably vote for it." And I'm
vote, I'd probably vote for it." And I'm like, "Well, you won't get your
like, "Well, you won't get your universal healthcare." And they're like,
universal healthcare." And they're like, "Oh, right." That's like the main thing
"Oh, right." That's like the main thing where Albertans are like, "Oh, but we
where Albertans are like, "Oh, but we really like universal healthcare." Um,
really like universal healthcare." Um, people don't like losing things, and
people don't like losing things, and that's good. That's a good thing that
that's good. That's a good thing that can be like leveraged and persuaded.
can be like leveraged and persuaded. Like cuz I I think like most of like the
Like cuz I I think like most of like the push back on that like again it was
push back on that like again it was Trump and it was him being an [ __ ]
Trump and it was him being an [ __ ] and like they there was no logic behind
and like they there was no logic behind it but I think most of the push back on
it but I think most of the push back on that and most of the push back you ever
that and most of the push back you ever hear about like unifying countries is
hear about like unifying countries is always like well you can't just rob us
always like well you can't just rob us of our c cultural identity and it's like
of our c cultural identity and it's like well go to Louisiana and go to like a
well go to Louisiana and go to like a casian area and like ask them if their
casian area and like ask them if their cultural identity is is you know is
cultural identity is is you know is robbed because they're American. Like
robbed because they're American. Like it's literally no like and I guess it
it's literally no like and I guess it like it burns a little part of me to
like it burns a little part of me to think that like that somebody thinks
think that like that somebody thinks that their cultural identity is decided
that their cultural identity is decided by government. Well, I know that but JJ
by government. Well, I know that but JJ McCulla al obviously feels similarly
McCulla al obviously feels similarly about all this, but like the real thing
about all this, but like the real thing that because I was trying to understand
that because I was trying to understand because I wonder because he's all pro
because I wonder because he's all pro kind of Canada America integration and
kind of Canada America integration and I'm like okay but he's very anti-Trump
I'm like okay but he's very anti-Trump and so I'm like so how is he going to
and so I'm like so how is he going to feel about this? And uh I think the
feel about this? And uh I think the thing is like um and this is just
thing is like um and this is just responding to the state of the world
responding to the state of the world like very tragically some of the things
like very tragically some of the things we care about are being hurt. You know
we care about are being hurt. You know what I mean? So like I think that's the
what I mean? So like I think that's the thing right is that like this thing of
thing right is that like this thing of like you know the the perhaps like the
like you know the the perhaps like the wisdom inside of like you know we should
wisdom inside of like you know we should not you know like the the libertarian in
not you know like the the libertarian in you and the anti-border person in you is
you and the anti-border person in you is being harmed by this kind of act of
being harmed by this kind of act of aggression that's like the most toxic.
aggression that's like the most toxic. It's making your beliefs look bad. It
It's making your beliefs look bad. It sucks you know. And so I I don't know.
sucks you know. And so I I don't know. That's my um I feel the same way about
That's my um I feel the same way about like Christianity, right? It's like that
like Christianity, right? It's like that but like I'm not going to leave the room
but like I'm not going to leave the room like as a Christian because Christians
like as a Christian because Christians are embarrassing me and like they're
are embarrassing me and like they're really damaging something that I really
really damaging something that I really believe in. I was like no, I have to
believe in. I was like no, I have to fight you. Yeah. You know. Yeah. And and
fight you. Yeah. You know. Yeah. And and I think like in a lot of ways like there
I think like in a lot of ways like there are a lot of places where healthcare is
are a lot of places where healthcare is not that bad in the United States in
not that bad in the United States in comparison to others or like you know or
comparison to others or like you know or I mean whatever. What get an AR-15 and
I mean whatever. What get an AR-15 and and walk into a Walmart in California
and walk into a Walmart in California and let me know how that goes for you
and let me know how that goes for you because like you're going to end up in
because like you're going to end up in prison. like there there's a lot of
prison. like there there's a lot of Yeah, there's a lot of places in America
Yeah, there's a lot of places in America that aren't really Americaish in terms
that aren't really Americaish in terms of like how you think of all the bad
of like how you think of all the bad things with America. Um but yeah,
things with America. Um but yeah, anyway. Yeah, I'm also out of my pay
anyway. Yeah, I'm also out of my pay grade, so it might be a Yeah, I mean I
grade, so it might be a Yeah, I mean I Yeah, I think
Yeah, I think the a pretty natural stopping point
the a pretty natural stopping point actually because it's uh I think I think
actually because it's uh I think I think the problem when it comes to like
the problem when it comes to like figuring out bridging between these
figuring out bridging between these communities and and peace and like all
communities and and peace and like all these like big broad questions is that
these like big broad questions is that like if we had
uh if we had solved that problem uh we wouldn't be here. um like
uh we wouldn't be here. um like philosophy would end even though it did
philosophy would end even though it did end with Aristotle in many ways. Maybe
end with Aristotle in many ways. Maybe Aristotle's got the answer that I'm like
Aristotle's got the answer that I'm like looking for but um history ended too. It
looking for but um history ended too. It turns out it started again. So yeah.
turns out it started again. So yeah. Yeah. And so it's like you know if the
Yeah. And so it's like you know if the answer was simple we wouldn't they like
answer was simple we wouldn't they like be wrestling it. And I guess the best
be wrestling it. And I guess the best that we can do is like try to wrestle
that we can do is like try to wrestle with it honestly um and give space to
with it honestly um and give space to others who are also if they are
others who are also if they are presumably wrestling with it honestly to
presumably wrestling with it honestly to allow them to do so um and be willing to
allow them to do so um and be willing to still unify underneath them. I guess to
still unify underneath them. I guess to some degree if we're not living in a
some degree if we're not living in a simulation and if we are actually like
simulation and if we are actually like fleshy human beings on this planet
fleshy human beings on this planet that's spinning and soaring through
that's spinning and soaring through space then every single thing that we
space then every single thing that we think of to try and improve the world
think of to try and improve the world around us will be uh forgotten when the
around us will be uh forgotten when the last human dies. So doesn't really
last human dies. So doesn't really matter anyway does it?
matter anyway does it? I disagree word from our sponsor.
I disagree word from our sponsor. I disagree mostly because I think we
I disagree mostly because I think we render meaning in and of ourselves. Like
render meaning in and of ourselves. Like I think just because it ends with us, it
I think just because it ends with us, it doesn't make it Well, yeah. And I also
doesn't make it Well, yeah. And I also think that like what we think reality is
think that like what we think reality is is wildly going to be wrong from how it
is wildly going to be wrong from how it actually is. Like, you know, I don't
actually is. Like, you know, I don't think we actually understand.
think we actually understand. Yeah. All I mean, just doing something
Yeah. All I mean, just doing something within my lifetime that makes things
within my lifetime that makes things sound good. Oh, did this this dog my
sound good. Oh, did this this dog my idea of allowing the dogs on the podcast
idea of allowing the dogs on the podcast has really turned out bad in the last 5
has really turned out bad in the last 5 minutes. Like get another thing that I
minutes. Like get another thing that I was right about. Yeah.
was right about. Yeah. As soon as she came in with a tour, I
As soon as she came in with a tour, I was like, "This is not Yeah. Well, she
was like, "This is not Yeah. Well, she brought a stick in here and tore it to
brought a stick in here and tore it to shreds." And this, by the way, is the my
shreds." And this, by the way, is the my the problem I have with dog people.
the problem I have with dog people. Well, for one, it's I just don't have
Well, for one, it's I just don't have the love in my heart like that. But the
the love in my heart like that. But the bigger thing is that like hanging out
bigger thing is that like hanging out with dog is that like the dogs uh
with dog is that like the dogs uh actively subtract sometimes from the
actively subtract sometimes from the human connection where I'm like I show
human connection where I'm like I show up to like have I go show up to hang out
up to like have I go show up to hang out with somebody. This one time I should
with somebody. This one time I should tell the story. I don't know but like
tell the story. I don't know but like you know I met my partners at the time's
you know I met my partners at the time's parents, right? Um and so this was the
parents, right? Um and so this was the introduction like that introduction and
introduction like that introduction and these two big [ __ ] dogs half the time
these two big [ __ ] dogs half the time was like was like Stacy Stacy Stacy
was like was like Stacy Stacy Stacy Stacy and I'm like I'm supposed to shake
Stacy and I'm like I'm supposed to shake your hand and get to know you right now.
your hand and get to know you right now. Like this is my whole life you know.
Like this is my whole life you know. Yeah. Although to be fair, like a good
Yeah. Although to be fair, like a good counterpoint to that is it's just like
counterpoint to that is it's just like kids. Like a kid would come in here with
kids. Like a kid would come in here with a [ __ ] stick and and break it all
a [ __ ] stick and and break it all over the floor.
over the floor. Kids are growing. You can have a
Kids are growing. You can have a relationship with the kids and talk to
relationship with the kids and talk to them and increasingly over time it's
them and increasingly over time it's different to 10. They'll stop. Yeah.
different to 10. They'll stop. Yeah. Whereas a 10-year-old dog won't. Even
Whereas a 10-year-old dog won't. Even like a six-year-old, you have a whole
like a six-year-old, you have a whole conversation with them. Like, you know,
conversation with them. Like, you know, something like they're they're I don't
something like they're they're I don't know. That's good. Dogs don't take care
know. That's good. Dogs don't take care of you when you're elderly. That's true.
of you when you're elderly. That's true. Make you happy, but you guys are
Make you happy, but you guys are something. Bad podcast accessories.
something. Bad podcast accessories. You're fine. You're a bad podcast
You're fine. You're a bad podcast accessory for sure. Yeah. Lucy said,
accessory for sure. Yeah. Lucy said, "Yeah, [ __ ] Cora."
"Yeah, [ __ ] Cora." All right. Well, as you predicted, the
All right. Well, as you predicted, the dogs derailed the conversation by the
dogs derailed the conversation by the end and left us. It's God talking. It's
end and left us. It's God talking. It's God talking. I got to be open to that,
God talking. I got to be open to that, too. Meant to be. You know, there's
too. Meant to be. You know, there's things I don't understand about, you
things I don't understand about, you know, maybe God brought them in to
know, maybe God brought them in to naturally end. Well, Lucy said that
naturally end. Well, Lucy said that Coral was born out of Satan's ass, so
Coral was born out of Satan's ass, so check that. Yeah. You got upcoming
check that. Yeah. You got upcoming shows. Tell us about them. Yeah.
shows. Tell us about them. Yeah. Actually, you know what? Can I just kick
Actually, you know what? Can I just kick Cor out and then we can do that? Here.
Cor out and then we can do that? Here. Come here. All right. So, tell us about
Come here. All right. So, tell us about your new tour.
your new tour. Really? It just gets really Jimmy Kimmel
Really? It just gets really Jimmy Kimmel for a second. Yeah. All right. So,
for a second. Yeah. All right. So, what's coming up for you? What are you
what's coming up for you? What are you looking forward to? Um, well, where do
looking forward to? Um, well, where do people find you? Maybe I can maybe I can
people find you? Maybe I can maybe I can make this like a more
make this like a more um holistic statement. Uh I just think
um holistic statement. Uh I just think it's it's important to be focused
it's it's important to be focused building things like building businesses
building things like building businesses and building like uh institutions and
and building like uh institutions and being with people in real life and kind
being with people in real life and kind of talking about these ideas and
of talking about these ideas and building kind of new ways of thinking
building kind of new ways of thinking and uh new culture in this time. So my
and uh new culture in this time. So my my one of my versions of that is like
my one of my versions of that is like I'm you know I'm doing these uh lectures
I'm you know I'm doing these uh lectures like these live lectures straight up
like these live lectures straight up Jordan Peterson style like with a
Jordan Peterson style like with a slideshow. So I have like three full
slideshow. So I have like three full like 90-minute lectures. Um, and they've
like 90-minute lectures. Um, and they've been like really fun and good or I guess
been like really fun and good or I guess they're like 100 minutes is what I wrote
they're like 100 minutes is what I wrote down. Um, but yeah, it's been [ __ ]
down. Um, but yeah, it's been [ __ ] awesome. So, this cjx.com lectures. Um,
awesome. So, this cjx.com lectures. Um, or you know, subscribe to the mailing
or you know, subscribe to the mailing list at
list at cjx.com/subscribe to have first access
cjx.com/subscribe to have first access to the tickets. Um, and this again is
to the tickets. Um, and this again is like in the name of building like a
like in the name of building like a business to be like completely
business to be like completely independent, you know what I mean? To
independent, you know what I mean? To like make art and like enchant people
like make art and like enchant people and have the resources to do it without
and have the resources to do it without like signing your life away to a
like signing your life away to a platform or like a label and stuff. Like
platform or like a label and stuff. Like in order to do that, you need to make a
in order to do that, you need to make a bunch of [ __ ] money. You know what I
bunch of [ __ ] money. You know what I mean? The first
The news is divided. Ground news puts it back together so you can see how many
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