the following is a conversation with poe

the following is a conversation with poe shen lo a professor of mathematics

shen lo a professor of mathematics

shen lo a professor of mathematics at carnegie mellon university national

at carnegie mellon university national

at carnegie mellon university national coach of the usa

coach of the usa

coach of the usa international math olympia team and

international math olympia team and

international math olympia team and founder of

founder of

founder of xp that does online education of basic

xp that does online education of basic

xp that does online education of basic math and science

math and science

math and science he's also the founder of novid an app

he's also the founder of novid an app

he's also the founder of novid an app that takes a

that takes a

that takes a really interesting approach to contact

really interesting approach to contact

really interesting approach to contact tracing making sure you stay completely

tracing making sure you stay completely

tracing making sure you stay completely anonymous

anonymous

anonymous and it gives you statistical information

and it gives you statistical information

and it gives you statistical information about covet cases in your

about covet cases in your

about covet cases in your physical network of interactions so you

physical network of interactions so you

physical network of interactions so you can maintain privacy

can maintain privacy

can maintain privacy very important and make informed

very important and make informed

very important and make informed decisions

decisions

decisions in my opinion we desperately needed

in my opinion we desperately needed

in my opinion we desperately needed solutions like this in

solutions like this in

solutions like this in early 2020 and unfortunately i think

early 2020 and unfortunately i think

early 2020 and unfortunately i think we will again need it for the next

we will again need it for the next

we will again need it for the next pandemic

pandemic

pandemic to me solutions that require large-scale

to me solutions that require large-scale

to me solutions that require large-scale distributed coordination of human beings

distributed coordination of human beings

distributed coordination of human beings need ideas that emphasize freedom and

need ideas that emphasize freedom and

need ideas that emphasize freedom and knowledge

knowledge

knowledge quick mention of our sponsors jordan

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description to support this podcast

description to support this podcast as a side note let me say that poe and i

as a side note let me say that poe and i

as a side note let me say that poe and i filmed a few short videos about simple

filmed a few short videos about simple

filmed a few short videos about simple beautiful math concepts

beautiful math concepts

beautiful math concepts that i will release soon it was really

that i will release soon it was really

that i will release soon it was really fun

fun

fun i really enjoyed poe sharing his passion

i really enjoyed poe sharing his passion

i really enjoyed poe sharing his passion for math with me in those videos

for math with me in those videos

for math with me in those videos i'm hoping to do a few more short videos

i'm hoping to do a few more short videos

i'm hoping to do a few more short videos in the coming months

in the coming months

in the coming months that are educational in nature on ai

that are educational in nature on ai

that are educational in nature on ai robotics math science philosophy

robotics math science philosophy

robotics math science philosophy or if all else fails just fun snippets

or if all else fails just fun snippets

or if all else fails just fun snippets into my life on music

into my life on music

into my life on music books martial arts and other random

books martial arts and other random

books martial arts and other random things

things

things if that's of interest to anyone at all

if that's of interest to anyone at all

if that's of interest to anyone at all this is the lex friggman podcast and

this is the lex friggman podcast and

this is the lex friggman podcast and here's my conversation

here's my conversation

here's my conversation with po shenlo you know you mentioned

with po shenlo you know you mentioned

with po shenlo you know you mentioned you really enjoy

you really enjoy

you really enjoy flying and experiencing different people

flying and experiencing different people

flying and experiencing different people in different places

in different places

in different places there's something about flying for me i

there's something about flying for me i

there's something about flying for me i don't know if you have the same

don't know if you have the same

don't know if you have the same experience

experience

experience that every time i get on an airplane

that every time i get on an airplane

that every time i get on an airplane it's incredible to me

it's incredible to me

it's incredible to me that human beings have actually been

that human beings have actually been

that human beings have actually been able to achieve this

able to achieve this

able to achieve this and when i look at like what's happening

and when i look at like what's happening

and when i look at like what's happening now with humans traveling out into space

now with humans traveling out into space

now with humans traveling out into space i see it as all the same thing it's

i see it as all the same thing it's

i see it as all the same thing it's incredible that humans are able to get

incredible that humans are able to get

incredible that humans are able to get into a box

into a box

into a box and fly in the air and

and fly in the air and

and fly in the air and and safely and land in the same it seems

and safely and land in the same it seems

and safely and land in the same it seems like

like

like and everybody's taking it for granted so

and everybody's taking it for granted so

and everybody's taking it for granted so when i observe them

when i observe them

when i observe them it's quite fascinating because i see

it's quite fascinating because i see

it's quite fascinating because i see that cleanly mapping

that cleanly mapping

that cleanly mapping to the world where we're now on uh

to the world where we're now on uh

to the world where we're now on uh in rockets and traveling to the moon

in rockets and traveling to the moon

in rockets and traveling to the moon traveling to mars

traveling to mars

traveling to mars and at the same kind of way i can

and at the same kind of way i can

and at the same kind of way i can already see the future

already see the future

already see the future where we will all take it for granted

where we will all take it for granted

where we will all take it for granted so i don't know i don't know if you have

so i don't know i don't know if you have

so i don't know i don't know if you have uh you personally when you fly

uh you personally when you fly

uh you personally when you fly have the same kind of magical experience

have the same kind of magical experience

have the same kind of magical experience of like how the heck did humans actually

of like how the heck did humans actually

of like how the heck did humans actually accomplish this

accomplish this

accomplish this so i do especially when there's

so i do especially when there's

so i do especially when there's turbulence

turbulence

turbulence which is you know like on the way here

which is you know like on the way here

which is you know like on the way here yeah there was turbulence and

yeah there was turbulence and

yeah there was turbulence and the the plane jiggled even the flight

the the plane jiggled even the flight

the the plane jiggled even the flight attendant had to hold on to the side

attendant had to hold on to the side

attendant had to hold on to the side and i was just thinking to myself it's

and i was just thinking to myself it's

and i was just thinking to myself it's amazing that this happens all the time

amazing that this happens all the time

amazing that this happens all the time and the wings don't fall off you know

and the wings don't fall off you know

and the wings don't fall off you know like

like

like given how many planes are flying but

given how many planes are flying but

given how many planes are flying but then i often think about it and i'm like

then i often think about it and i'm like

then i often think about it and i'm like you know a long time ago i think people

you know a long time ago i think people

you know a long time ago i think people didn't trust elevators

didn't trust elevators

didn't trust elevators yeah in a 40-story building in new york

yeah in a 40-story building in new york

yeah in a 40-story building in new york city and

city and

city and now we just take it completely for

now we just take it completely for

now we just take it completely for granted that you can step into this

granted that you can step into this

granted that you can step into this shaft

shaft

shaft which is 40 floors up and down and it

which is 40 floors up and down and it

which is 40 floors up and down and it will just not

will just not

will just not fail yeah again i'm the same way with

fail yeah again i'm the same way with

fail yeah again i'm the same way with elevators but also buildings

elevators but also buildings

elevators but also buildings when i'll stand on the 40th floor and

when i'll stand on the 40th floor and

when i'll stand on the 40th floor and wonder

wonder

wonder how the heck are we not falling right

how the heck are we not falling right

how the heck are we not falling right now

now

now like how how amazing it is with the high

like how how amazing it is with the high

like how how amazing it is with the high winds

winds

winds like structurally just the earthquakes

like structurally just the earthquakes

like structurally just the earthquakes and the vibrations i mean

and the vibrations i mean

and the vibrations i mean natural vibrations in the ground like

natural vibrations in the ground like

natural vibrations in the ground like how is this how are

how is this how are

how is this how are all of these you go like new york city

all of these you go like new york city

all of these you go like new york city all of these buildings standing

all of these buildings standing

all of these buildings standing i mean to me one of the most beautiful

i mean to me one of the most beautiful

i mean to me one of the most beautiful things actually mathematically too is uh

things actually mathematically too is uh

things actually mathematically too is uh bridges

bridges

bridges i used to build bridges in high school

i used to build bridges in high school

i used to build bridges in high school from like toothpicks just like out of

from like toothpicks just like out of

from like toothpicks just like out of the pure joy

the pure joy

the pure joy of like physics making

of like physics making

of like physics making some structure really strong

some structure really strong

some structure really strong understanding

understanding

understanding like from a civil engineering

like from a civil engineering

like from a civil engineering perspective what kind of

perspective what kind of

perspective what kind of structure will be stronger than another

structure will be stronger than another

structure will be stronger than another kind of structure like suspension

kind of structure like suspension

kind of structure like suspension bridges and then you see that at scale

bridges and then you see that at scale

bridges and then you see that at scale humans being able to span a body of

humans being able to span a body of

humans being able to span a body of water with a giant bridge

water with a giant bridge

water with a giant bridge and it's i don't know it it's so

and it's i don't know it it's so

and it's i don't know it it's so humbling

humbling

humbling it makes you realize how

how dependent we are on each other sort

how dependent we are on each other sort of i talk about love a lot but

of i talk about love a lot but

of i talk about love a lot but there is there's a certain element in

there is there's a certain element in

there is there's a certain element in which we

which we

which we little ants have just a small amount of

little ants have just a small amount of

little ants have just a small amount of knowledge about

knowledge about

knowledge about our particular thing and then we're

our particular thing and then we're

our particular thing and then we're depending on a network

depending on a network

depending on a network of knowledge that other experts hold and

of knowledge that other experts hold and

of knowledge that other experts hold and then

then

then most of our lives most of the quality of

most of our lives most of the quality of

most of our lives most of the quality of life we have has to do with the

life we have has to do with the

life we have has to do with the the richness of that network of

the richness of that network of

the richness of that network of knowledge

knowledge

knowledge of that collaboration and then sort of

of that collaboration and then sort of

of that collaboration and then sort of the ability to build on top of it

the ability to build on top of it

the ability to build on top of it levels of abstractions you start from

levels of abstractions you start from

levels of abstractions you start from like bits in a computer

like bits in a computer

like bits in a computer then you can have assembly and you can

then you can have assembly and you can

then you can have assembly and you can have c plus so you have an operating

have c plus so you have an operating

have c plus so you have an operating system that you can see plus plus and

system that you can see plus plus and

system that you can see plus plus and python finally some machine learning on

python finally some machine learning on

python finally some machine learning on top

top

top all of these are abstractions and

all of these are abstractions and

all of these are abstractions and eventually we have ai that runs all of

eventually we have ai that runs all of

eventually we have ai that runs all of us humans but

us humans but

us humans but anyway uh but speaking of abstractions

anyway uh but speaking of abstractions

anyway uh but speaking of abstractions and programming in high school you wrote

and programming in high school you wrote

and programming in high school you wrote some impressive games for amaz i got a

some impressive games for amaz i got a

some impressive games for amaz i got a chance to

chance to

chance to in browser somehow it's magic got a

in browser somehow it's magic got a

in browser somehow it's magic got a chance to play them

chance to play them

chance to play them alien attack one two three and four

alien attack one two three and four

alien attack one two three and four what's the hardest part about

what's the hardest part about

what's the hardest part about programming those games

programming those games

programming those games and maybe can you tell the story about

and maybe can you tell the story about

and maybe can you tell the story about about building those games

about building those games

about building those games sure i actually tried to do those in

sure i actually tried to do those in

sure i actually tried to do those in high school because i was just curious

high school because i was just curious

high school because i was just curious if i could

if i could

if i could and yeah and that's a good starting

and yeah and that's a good starting

and yeah and that's a good starting point for anything right yeah yeah it's

point for anything right yeah yeah it's

point for anything right yeah yeah it's like could you but

like could you but

like could you but the appealing thing was also it was a

the appealing thing was also it was a

the appealing thing was also it was a soup to nuts kind of thing

soup to nuts kind of thing

soup to nuts kind of thing so something that has always attracted

so something that has always attracted

so something that has always attracted me is i like

me is i like

me is i like beautiful ideas i like seeing beautiful

beautiful ideas i like seeing beautiful

beautiful ideas i like seeing beautiful ideas but i actually also like

ideas but i actually also like

ideas but i actually also like seeing execution of an idea all the way

seeing execution of an idea all the way

seeing execution of an idea all the way from beginning to end in something that

from beginning to end in something that

from beginning to end in something that works so for example in high school i

works so for example in high school i

works so for example in high school i was lucky enough to grow up

was lucky enough to grow up

was lucky enough to grow up in the late 90s when even

in the late 90s when even

in the late 90s when even a high school student could hope to make

a high school student could hope to make

a high school student could hope to make something sort of comparable to the

something sort of comparable to the

something sort of comparable to the shareware games that were out there

shareware games that were out there

shareware games that were out there not i say the word sort of like still

not i say the word sort of like still

not i say the word sort of like still quite far away but at least i didn't

quite far away but at least i didn't

quite far away but at least i didn't need to hire a 3d

need to hire a 3d

need to hire a 3d cg artist there weren't enough pixels to

cg artist there weren't enough pixels to

cg artist there weren't enough pixels to draw anybody

draw anybody

draw anybody even i can draw right bad art of course

even i can draw right bad art of course

even i can draw right bad art of course but

but

but the point is i wanted to know is it

the point is i wanted to know is it

the point is i wanted to know is it possible for me to try to do those

possible for me to try to do those

possible for me to try to do those things

things

things where back in those days you didn't even

where back in those days you didn't even

where back in those days you didn't even have an

have an

have an easy way to draw letters on the screen

easy way to draw letters on the screen

easy way to draw letters on the screen in a particular font

in a particular font

in a particular font you couldn't just say import a font it

you couldn't just say import a font it

you couldn't just say import a font it wasn't like python so

wasn't like python so

wasn't like python so for example back then if you play those

for example back then if you play those

for example back then if you play those games in the in the web browser which is

games in the in the web browser which is

games in the in the web browser which is emulating

emulating

emulating um the the old school computer

um the the old school computer

um the the old school computer those even the letters you see those are

those even the letters you see those are

those even the letters you see those are made by individual calls to draw pixels

made by individual calls to draw pixels

made by individual calls to draw pixels on the screen so you built that from

on the screen so you built that from

on the screen so you built that from scratch almost building a computer

scratch almost building a computer

scratch almost building a computer graphics library from scratch

graphics library from scratch

graphics library from scratch yes the primitive that i got to use was

yes the primitive that i got to use was

yes the primitive that i got to use was some code i copied off of a book

some code i copied off of a book

some code i copied off of a book in assembly of how to put a pixel on the

in assembly of how to put a pixel on the

in assembly of how to put a pixel on the screen in a particular color

screen in a particular color

screen in a particular color and the programming programming language

and the programming programming language

and the programming programming language was pascal

was pascal

was pascal ah yeah the first one was in pascal but

ah yeah the first one was in pascal but

ah yeah the first one was in pascal but then the

then the

then the other ones were in c plus plus after

other ones were in c plus plus after

other ones were in c plus plus after that how's the emulation in the browser

that how's the emulation in the browser

that how's the emulation in the browser work by the way is that is that true

work by the way is that is that true

work by the way is that is that true real

real

real because it's pretty cool you get to play

because it's pretty cool you get to play

because it's pretty cool you get to play these games that have a very much

these games that have a very much

these games that have a very much 90s feeling to them ah so it's literally

90s feeling to them ah so it's literally

90s feeling to them ah so it's literally making an ms-dos environment which is

making an ms-dos environment which is

making an ms-dos environment which is literally

literally

literally running the old exe file wow

that could be more amazing than the

that could be more amazing than the airplane so it wasn't so much about the

airplane so it wasn't so much about the

airplane so it wasn't so much about the video games it was more about can you

video games it was more about can you

video games it was more about can you build something

build something

build something really cool from scratch yes and

really cool from scratch yes and

really cool from scratch yes and you did a bunch of programming

you did a bunch of programming

you did a bunch of programming competitions

competitions

competitions what was your interest your love for

what was your interest your love for

what was your interest your love for programming

programming

programming what did you learn to that experience

what did you learn to that experience

what did you learn to that experience especially now that

especially now that

especially now that as much of your work has taken a long

as much of your work has taken a long

as much of your work has taken a long journey through mathematics

journey through mathematics

journey through mathematics i think i always was amazed by how

i think i always was amazed by how

i think i always was amazed by how computers

computers

computers could do things fast if i wanted to make

could do things fast if i wanted to make

could do things fast if i wanted to make it an abstract

it an abstract

it an abstract analysis of why it is that i saw some

analysis of why it is that i saw some

analysis of why it is that i saw some power in the computer

power in the computer

power in the computer because if the computer can do things so

because if the computer can do things so

because if the computer can do things so many times faster than humans

many times faster than humans

many times faster than humans where the hard part is telling the

where the hard part is telling the

where the hard part is telling the computer what to do and how to do it

computer what to do and how to do it

computer what to do and how to do it if you can master that asking the

if you can master that asking the

if you can master that asking the computer what to do

computer what to do

computer what to do then you could conceivably achieve more

then you could conceivably achieve more

then you could conceivably achieve more things and those contests i was in

things and those contests i was in

things and those contests i was in those were the opposite in some sense of

those were the opposite in some sense of

those were the opposite in some sense of making

making

making a complete product like a game as a

a complete product like a game as a

a complete product like a game as a product

product

product those contests were effectively write a

those contests were effectively write a

those contests were effectively write a function to do something extremely

function to do something extremely

function to do something extremely efficiently

efficiently

efficiently and if you are able to do that then you

and if you are able to do that then you

and if you are able to do that then you can unlock more of the power of the

can unlock more of the power of the

can unlock more of the power of the computer

computer

computer but also doing it quickly there's a time

but also doing it quickly there's a time

but also doing it quickly there's a time element from the human perspective to be

element from the human perspective to be

element from the human perspective to be able to

able to

able to program quickly there's something nice

program quickly there's something nice

program quickly there's something nice so there's like almost like an athletics

so there's like almost like an athletics

so there's like almost like an athletics component

component

component to where you're almost like uh an

to where you're almost like uh an

to where you're almost like uh an athlete

athlete

athlete seeking optimal performance as a human

seeking optimal performance as a human

seeking optimal performance as a human being trying to write these programs

being trying to write these programs

being trying to write these programs and at the same time it's kind of art

and at the same time it's kind of art

and at the same time it's kind of art because you're

because you're

because you're the best way to write a program quickly

the best way to write a program quickly

the best way to write a program quickly is to write a simple program

is to write a simple program

is to write a simple program you used to have a damn good solution so

you used to have a damn good solution so

you used to have a damn good solution so it's not necessary you have to type fast

it's not necessary you have to type fast

it's not necessary you have to type fast you have to think through a really clean

you have to think through a really clean

you have to think through a really clean beautiful

beautiful

beautiful solution i mean

solution i mean

solution i mean what do you think is the use of those

what do you think is the use of those

what do you think is the use of those programming competitions do you think

programming competitions do you think

programming competitions do you think they're ultimately something you would

they're ultimately something you would

they're ultimately something you would recommend for students for people

recommend for students for people

recommend for students for people interested in programming or people

interested in programming or people

interested in programming or people interested in building stuff

interested in building stuff

interested in building stuff yes i think so because especially with

yes i think so because especially with

yes i think so because especially with the work that i've been doing nowadays

the work that i've been doing nowadays

the work that i've been doing nowadays even

even

even trying to control kovit something that

trying to control kovit something that

trying to control kovit something that was very helpful from day one

was very helpful from day one

was very helpful from day one was understanding that the kinds of

was understanding that the kinds of

was understanding that the kinds of computations we would want to do

computations we would want to do

computations we would want to do we could conceivably do on like a four

we could conceivably do on like a four

we could conceivably do on like a four core cloud machine on amazon web

core cloud machine on amazon web

core cloud machine on amazon web services

services

services out to a population which might have

out to a population which might have

out to a population which might have hundreds of thousands or millions of

hundreds of thousands or millions of

hundreds of thousands or millions of people

people

people the reason why that was important to

the reason why that was important to

the reason why that was important to have that back of the envelope

have that back of the envelope

have that back of the envelope calculation with efficient algorithms

calculation with efficient algorithms

calculation with efficient algorithms is because if we couldn't do that then

is because if we couldn't do that then

is because if we couldn't do that then we would bankrupt ourselves before we

we would bankrupt ourselves before we

we would bankrupt ourselves before we could get to a big enough skill

could get to a big enough skill

could get to a big enough skill if you think about how you grow anything

if you think about how you grow anything

if you think about how you grow anything from small to big

from small to big

from small to big if in order to grow it from small to big

if in order to grow it from small to big

if in order to grow it from small to big you also already need 10

you also already need 10

you also already need 10 000 cloud servers you'll never get too

000 cloud servers you'll never get too

000 cloud servers you'll never get too big

big

big and also the nice thing about

and also the nice thing about

and also the nice thing about programming competitions is that you

programming competitions is that you

programming competitions is that you actually build

actually build

actually build a thing that uh works so you

a thing that uh works so you

a thing that uh works so you you finish it there's a completion thing

you finish it there's a completion thing

you finish it there's a completion thing and you realize

and you realize

and you realize i think there's a magic to it where you

i think there's a magic to it where you

i think there's a magic to it where you realize that

realize that

realize that it's not so hard to build something that

it's not so hard to build something that

it's not so hard to build something that works

works

works to have a system that uh successfully

to have a system that uh successfully

to have a system that uh successfully takes in inputs and produces outputs and

takes in inputs and produces outputs and

takes in inputs and produces outputs and solves a difficult problem

solves a difficult problem

solves a difficult problem and that directly transfers to building

and that directly transfers to building

and that directly transfers to building a startup essentially that can help

a startup essentially that can help

a startup essentially that can help some aspect of this world as long as

some aspect of this world as long as

some aspect of this world as long as it's mostly be

it's mostly be

it's mostly be based on software engineering things get

based on software engineering things get

based on software engineering things get really tricky when you have to

really tricky when you have to

really tricky when you have to manufacture stuff

manufacture stuff

manufacture stuff that's why people like elon musk are so

that's why people like elon musk are so

that's why people like elon musk are so impressive that they it's not just

impressive that they it's not just

impressive that they it's not just software

software

software tesla autopilot is just not just

tesla autopilot is just not just

tesla autopilot is just not just software it's it's like you have to

software it's it's like you have to

software it's it's like you have to actually

actually

actually like have factories that build uh cars

like have factories that build uh cars

like have factories that build uh cars and there's like a million components

and there's like a million components

and there's like a million components involved in in the machinery required to

involved in in the machinery required to

involved in in the machinery required to assemble those cards and so on but in

assemble those cards and so on but in

assemble those cards and so on but in software one person

software one person

software one person can change the world which is uh uh

can change the world which is uh uh

can change the world which is uh uh incredible

incredible

incredible but on the mathematics side what uh if

but on the mathematics side what uh if

but on the mathematics side what uh if you

you

you look back or maybe today what made you

look back or maybe today what made you

look back or maybe today what made you fall in love with mathematics

fall in love with mathematics

fall in love with mathematics for me i think i've always been very

for me i think i've always been very

for me i think i've always been very attracted

attracted

attracted to challenge as i already indicated with

to challenge as i already indicated with

to challenge as i already indicated with the writing the program

the writing the program

the writing the program i guess if i see something that's hard

i guess if i see something that's hard

i guess if i see something that's hard or supposed to be impossible it

or supposed to be impossible it

or supposed to be impossible it certain sometimes i say maybe maybe i

certain sometimes i say maybe maybe i

certain sometimes i say maybe maybe i want to see if i can pull that off

want to see if i can pull that off

want to see if i can pull that off and with the mathematics the math

and with the mathematics the math

and with the mathematics the math competitions presented problems

competitions presented problems

competitions presented problems that were hard that i didn't know how to

that were hard that i didn't know how to

that were hard that i didn't know how to start

start

start but for which i could conceivably try to

but for which i could conceivably try to

but for which i could conceivably try to learn how to solve them

learn how to solve them

learn how to solve them so i mean there are other things that

so i mean there are other things that

so i mean there are other things that are hard called like get something to

are hard called like get something to

are hard called like get something to mars get people to mars

mars get people to mars

mars get people to mars and i didn't i still don't think that

and i didn't i still don't think that

and i didn't i still don't think that i'm

i'm

i'm able to solve that problem on the other

able to solve that problem on the other

able to solve that problem on the other hand the math problems struck me as

hand the math problems struck me as

hand the math problems struck me as things which are

things which are

things which are hard and with significant amount of

hard and with significant amount of

hard and with significant amount of extra work i could figure it out

extra work i could figure it out

extra work i could figure it out and maybe they would actually even be

and maybe they would actually even be

and maybe they would actually even be useful like that mathematical skill is

useful like that mathematical skill is

useful like that mathematical skill is the core

the core

the core of lots of other things

that's really interesting maybe you

that's really interesting maybe you could speak to that because

could speak to that because

could speak to that because a lot of people say that math is hard

a lot of people say that math is hard

a lot of people say that math is hard as a kind of negative statement

as a kind of negative statement

as a kind of negative statement it always seemed to me a little bit like

it always seemed to me a little bit like

it always seemed to me a little bit like that's kind of a positive statement

that's kind of a positive statement

that's kind of a positive statement that all things that are worth having in

that all things that are worth having in

that all things that are worth having in this world are hard

this world are hard

this world are hard i mean everything that people think

i mean everything that people think

i mean everything that people think about

about

about that they would love to do whether it's

that they would love to do whether it's

that they would love to do whether it's sports

sports

sports whether it's art music

whether it's art music

whether it's art music and all the sciences they're going to be

and all the sciences they're going to be

and all the sciences they're going to be hard if you want to do something special

hard if you want to do something special

hard if you want to do something special so is there something you could say to

so is there something you could say to

so is there something you could say to that idea that math is hard

that idea that math is hard

that idea that math is hard should it be made easy or should it be

should it be made easy or should it be

should it be made easy or should it be hard

hard

hard ah so i think maybe i want to dig in a

ah so i think maybe i want to dig in a

ah so i think maybe i want to dig in a little bit onto this hard part and say

little bit onto this hard part and say

little bit onto this hard part and say uh i think the interesting thing about

uh i think the interesting thing about

uh i think the interesting thing about the math is that

the math is that

the math is that you can see a question that you didn't

you can see a question that you didn't

you can see a question that you didn't know how to

know how to

know how to start doing it before and over a course

start doing it before and over a course

start doing it before and over a course of

of

of thinking about it you can come up with a

thinking about it you can come up with a

thinking about it you can come up with a way

way

way to to solve it and so you can move from

to to solve it and so you can move from

to to solve it and so you can move from a state of

a state of

a state of not being able to do something to a

not being able to do something to a

not being able to do something to a state of being able to do something

state of being able to do something

state of being able to do something where you help to take yourself through

where you help to take yourself through

where you help to take yourself through that instead of somebody else

that instead of somebody else

that instead of somebody else spoon feeding you yes that technique so

spoon feeding you yes that technique so

spoon feeding you yes that technique so actually here i'm already digging into

actually here i'm already digging into

actually here i'm already digging into maybe part of my teaching philosophy

maybe part of my teaching philosophy

maybe part of my teaching philosophy also which is that

also which is that

also which is that i actually don't want to ever just tell

i actually don't want to ever just tell

i actually don't want to ever just tell somebody

somebody

somebody here's how you do something i actually

here's how you do something i actually

here's how you do something i actually prefer to say here's an interesting

prefer to say here's an interesting

prefer to say here's an interesting question

question

question i know you don't quite know how to do it

i know you don't quite know how to do it

i know you don't quite know how to do it do you have any ideas

do you have any ideas

do you have any ideas this is i'm actually coming up with i'm

this is i'm actually coming up with i'm

this is i'm actually coming up with i'm actually explaining another way that you

actually explaining another way that you

actually explaining another way that you could try to do teaching

could try to do teaching

could try to do teaching and i'm contrasting this to a method of

and i'm contrasting this to a method of

and i'm contrasting this to a method of watch me do this

watch me do this

watch me do this now practice it 20 times i'm trying to

now practice it 20 times i'm trying to

now practice it 20 times i'm trying to say a lot of people

say a lot of people

say a lot of people consider math to be hard because maybe

consider math to be hard because maybe

consider math to be hard because maybe they can't remember

they can't remember

they can't remember all of the methods that were taught but

all of the methods that were taught but

all of the methods that were taught but for me

for me

for me i look at the hardness and i don't think

i look at the hardness and i don't think

i look at the hardness and i don't think of it as a memory hardness

of it as a memory hardness

of it as a memory hardness i think of it as a can you invent

i think of it as a can you invent

i think of it as a can you invent something

something

something hardness and i think that if we can

hardness and i think that if we can

hardness and i think that if we can teach more people

teach more people

teach more people how to do that art of invention

how to do that art of invention

how to do that art of invention in a pure cognitive way not as hard as

in a pure cognitive way not as hard as

in a pure cognitive way not as hard as the actual hardware stuff right but like

the actual hardware stuff right but like

the actual hardware stuff right but like in terms of the concepts and the

in terms of the concepts and the

in terms of the concepts and the thoughts and the mathematics teaching

thoughts and the mathematics teaching

thoughts and the mathematics teaching people how to

people how to

people how to invent then suddenly actually they might

invent then suddenly actually they might

invent then suddenly actually they might not even find math to be that

not even find math to be that

not even find math to be that tiresomeness hard anymore but that

tiresomeness hard anymore but that

tiresomeness hard anymore but that rewardingness hard

rewardingness hard

rewardingness hard of i have the capability of looking at

of i have the capability of looking at

of i have the capability of looking at something which i don't know what to do

something which i don't know what to do

something which i don't know what to do and coming up with how to do it i

and coming up with how to do it i

and coming up with how to do it i actually think we should be doing that

actually think we should be doing that

actually think we should be doing that giving giving people that capability

giving giving people that capability

giving giving people that capability so hard in the same way that invention

so hard in the same way that invention

so hard in the same way that invention is hard

is hard

is hard that is ultimately rewarding so maybe

that is ultimately rewarding so maybe

that is ultimately rewarding so maybe you can dig in

you can dig in

you can dig in that a little bit longer which is um

do you see basically the way to teach

do you see basically the way to teach math is to present a problem

math is to present a problem

math is to present a problem and to give a person a chance to try to

and to give a person a chance to try to

and to give a person a chance to try to invent a solution

invent a solution

invent a solution without with minimal amount of

without with minimal amount of

without with minimal amount of information first

information first

information first is that is that basically how do you

is that is that basically how do you

is that is that basically how do you build that muscle of invention

build that muscle of invention

build that muscle of invention in a student yes so the way that i i

in a student yes so the way that i i

in a student yes so the way that i i guess i have

guess i have

guess i have two different sort of ways that i try to

two different sort of ways that i try to

two different sort of ways that i try to teach actually one of them is

teach actually one of them is

teach actually one of them is in fact this semester because all my

in fact this semester because all my

in fact this semester because all my classes were remotely delivered i even

classes were remotely delivered i even

classes were remotely delivered i even threw them all onto my youtube channel

threw them all onto my youtube channel

threw them all onto my youtube channel so you can see

so you can see

so you can see you can see how i teach at carnegie

you can see how i teach at carnegie

you can see how i teach at carnegie mellon but i'd often say

mellon but i'd often say

mellon but i'd often say hey everyone let's try to do this any

hey everyone let's try to do this any

hey everyone let's try to do this any ideas

ideas

ideas and that actually changes my role as a

and that actually changes my role as a

and that actually changes my role as a professor

professor

professor from a person who shows up for class

from a person who shows up for class

from a person who shows up for class with a script of what i want to talk

with a script of what i want to talk

with a script of what i want to talk through

through

through i actually i don't have a script the way

i actually i don't have a script the way

i actually i don't have a script the way i show up for class is

i show up for class is

i show up for class is there's something that we want to learn

there's something that we want to learn

there's something that we want to learn how to do and we're going to do it by

how to do and we're going to do it by

how to do and we're going to do it by improv

improv

improv i'm talking about the same method as

i'm talking about the same method as

i'm talking about the same method as improv comedy which is where

improv comedy which is where

improv comedy which is where you tell me some ideas and i'll try to

you tell me some ideas and i'll try to

you tell me some ideas and i'll try to yes and them

yes and them

yes and them you know what i mean and then together

you know what i mean and then together

you know what i mean and then together we're gonna come up with a proof

we're gonna come up with a proof

we're gonna come up with a proof of this concept where you were deeply

of this concept where you were deeply

of this concept where you were deeply involved

involved

involved in creating the proof actually every

in creating the proof actually every

in creating the proof actually every time i teach the class we do every proof

time i teach the class we do every proof

time i teach the class we do every proof slightly differently because it's based

slightly differently because it's based

slightly differently because it's based on how the students came

on how the students came

on how the students came up with it and that's how i do it when

up with it and that's how i do it when

up with it and that's how i do it when i'm in person

i'm in person

i'm in person i also have another line of courses that

i also have another line of courses that

i also have another line of courses that we make that is delivered online

we make that is delivered online

we make that is delivered online those things are where i can't do it

those things are where i can't do it

those things are where i can't do it live but

live but

live but the teaching method became also similar

the teaching method became also similar

the teaching method became also similar it was just here's an interesting

it was just here's an interesting

it was just here's an interesting question

question

question i know it's out of reach why don't you

i know it's out of reach why don't you

i know it's out of reach why don't you think about it and then automatic hints

think about it and then automatic hints

think about it and then automatic hints we feed automatically hints

we feed automatically hints

we feed automatically hints uh through you know through the internet

uh through you know through the internet

uh through you know through the internet to go and let the person

to go and let the person

to go and let the person try to invent so that's like a more

try to invent so that's like a more

try to invent so that's like a more rigorous prodding of invention

rigorous prodding of invention

rigorous prodding of invention but you did mention disease and

but you did mention disease and

but you did mention disease and coven and you've been doing some very

coven and you've been doing some very

coven and you've been doing some very interesting stuff from a mathematical

interesting stuff from a mathematical

interesting stuff from a mathematical but also software engineering angle

but also software engineering angle

but also software engineering angle of coming up with ideas it's back to the

of coming up with ideas it's back to the

of coming up with ideas it's back to the i can

i can

i can i see a problem i think i can help uh

i see a problem i think i can help uh

i see a problem i think i can help uh so you stepped into this world can you

so you stepped into this world can you

so you stepped into this world can you tell me about

tell me about

tell me about your work there under the flag of novid

your work there under the flag of novid

your work there under the flag of novid and uh both the the software and the

and uh both the the software and the

and uh both the the software and the technical details of how the thing works

technical details of how the thing works

technical details of how the thing works sure sure so first i want to make sure

sure sure so first i want to make sure

sure sure so first i want to make sure that i say this is actually team effort

that i say this is actually team effort

that i say this is actually team effort i happen to be the one speaking but

i happen to be the one speaking but

i happen to be the one speaking but there's no way this would exist without

there's no way this would exist without

there's no way this would exist without an incredible team of people who inspire

an incredible team of people who inspire

an incredible team of people who inspire me every day to

me every day to

me every day to work on this but i'll speak on behalf of

work on this but i'll speak on behalf of

work on this but i'll speak on behalf of them so

them so

them so the idea was indeed that we stepped

the idea was indeed that we stepped

the idea was indeed that we stepped forward

forward

forward in march of last year when the world

in march of last year when the world

in march of last year when the world started to become our part of the world

started to become our part of the world

started to become our part of the world started to become our part meaning the

started to become our part meaning the

started to become our part meaning the united states

united states

united states started to become paralyzed by coven the

started to become paralyzed by coven the

started to become paralyzed by coven the shutdown started to happen

shutdown started to happen

shutdown started to happen and at that time it started as a figment

and at that time it started as a figment

and at that time it started as a figment of an idea which was

of an idea which was

of an idea which was network theory which is the area of math

network theory which is the area of math

network theory which is the area of math that i work in

that i work in

that i work in could potentially be combined with

could potentially be combined with

could potentially be combined with smartphones and some kind of

smartphones and some kind of

smartphones and some kind of health information anonymized exactly

health information anonymized exactly

health information anonymized exactly how

how

how we didn't know yet we tried to

we didn't know yet we tried to

we didn't know yet we tried to crystallize it and many months into this

crystallize it and many months into this

crystallize it and many months into this work

work

work we ended up accidentally discovering

we ended up accidentally discovering

we ended up accidentally discovering a new way to control diseases which

a new way to control diseases which

a new way to control diseases which is now what is the main impetus of all

is now what is the main impetus of all

is now what is the main impetus of all of this work is to take this idea

of this work is to take this idea

of this work is to take this idea and polish it and hopefully have it be

and polish it and hopefully have it be

and polish it and hopefully have it be useful not only now

useful not only now

useful not only now but for future pandemics the idea is

but for future pandemics the idea is

but for future pandemics the idea is really simple to describe

really simple to describe

really simple to describe um actually my main thing in the world

um actually my main thing in the world

um actually my main thing in the world is i come up with obvious

is i come up with obvious

is i come up with obvious observations that's that's i'll explain

observations that's that's i'll explain

observations that's that's i'll explain it now einstein did the same thing

it now einstein did the same thing

it now einstein did the same thing and he wrote a few short papers

and he wrote a few short papers

and he wrote a few short papers but but so the idea is like this if we

but but so the idea is like this if we

but but so the idea is like this if we describe

describe

describe how usually people control disease

how usually people control disease

how usually people control disease for a lot of history it was that you'd

for a lot of history it was that you'd

for a lot of history it was that you'd find out

find out

find out who was sick you'd find out who they've

who was sick you'd find out who they've

who was sick you'd find out who they've been around

been around

been around and you try to remove all of those

and you try to remove all of those

and you try to remove all of those people from society against their will

people from society against their will

people from society against their will yes now that's the problem the against

yes now that's the problem the against

yes now that's the problem the against the will part

the will part

the will part gives you the wrong kind of a feedback

gives you the wrong kind of a feedback

gives you the wrong kind of a feedback loop which makes it hard to control the

loop which makes it hard to control the

loop which makes it hard to control the disease because then the people you're

disease because then the people you're

disease because then the people you're trying to control keep getting other

trying to control keep getting other

trying to control keep getting other people sick

people sick

people sick you can see already how i'm thinking and

you can see already how i'm thinking and

you can see already how i'm thinking and talking about this feedback loops this

talking about this feedback loops this

talking about this feedback loops this is actually related to something you

is actually related to something you

is actually related to something you said earlier

said earlier

said earlier about even like how skyscrapers stay in

about even like how skyscrapers stay in

about even like how skyscrapers stay in the air uh the whole point is

the air uh the whole point is

the air uh the whole point is control theory you actually want to or

control theory you actually want to or

control theory you actually want to or even how an airplane stays

even how an airplane stays

even how an airplane stays you need to have control loops which are

you need to have control loops which are

you need to have control loops which are feedbacking in the right way

feedbacking in the right way

feedbacking in the right way and what we observed was that the

and what we observed was that the

and what we observed was that the feedback control loop for

feedback control loop for

feedback control loop for controlling disease by asking people to

controlling disease by asking people to

controlling disease by asking people to be removed from society against their

be removed from society against their

be removed from society against their will

will

will was not working it was running against

was not working it was running against

was not working it was running against human incentives and you suddenly are

human incentives and you suddenly are

human incentives and you suddenly are trying to control seven

trying to control seven

trying to control seven billion eight billion people in ways

billion eight billion people in ways

billion eight billion people in ways that they don't individually want

that they don't individually want

that they don't individually want to necessarily do so here's the idea

to necessarily do so here's the idea

to necessarily do so here's the idea and this is inspired by the fact that at

and this is inspired by the fact that at

and this is inspired by the fact that at the core of our team were user

the core of our team were user

the core of our team were user experience designers

experience designers

experience designers that's actually the in fact the first

that's actually the in fact the first

that's actually the in fact the first thing i knew we needed when we started

thing i knew we needed when we started

thing i knew we needed when we started was to bring user experience

was to bring user experience

was to bring user experience at the core okay but so um

at the core okay but so um

at the core okay but so um the idea was suppose there was a penta

the idea was suppose there was a penta

the idea was suppose there was a penta suppose hypothetically there was a

suppose hypothetically there was a

suppose hypothetically there was a pandemic

pandemic

pandemic what would you want you would want a way

what would you want you would want a way

what would you want you would want a way to be able to live your life as much as

to be able to live your life as much as

to be able to live your life as much as possible

possible

possible and avoid getting sick can we make an

and avoid getting sick can we make an

and avoid getting sick can we make an app to help

app to help

app to help you avoid getting sick notice how i've

you avoid getting sick notice how i've

you avoid getting sick notice how i've just articulated the problem

just articulated the problem

just articulated the problem it is not can we make an app so that

it is not can we make an app so that

it is not can we make an app so that after you are around somebody who's sick

after you are around somebody who's sick

after you are around somebody who's sick you can be removed from society it's can

you can be removed from society it's can

you can be removed from society it's can we make an

we make an

we make an app so that you can avoid getting sick

app so that you can avoid getting sick

app so that you can avoid getting sick that would

that would

that would run a positive feed however i don't know

run a positive feed however i don't know

run a positive feed however i don't know if i want to call it positive or

if i want to call it positive or

if i want to call it positive or negative but they would run a good

negative but they would run a good

negative but they would run a good feedback loop yes

feedback loop yes

feedback loop yes okay so then how would you do this the

okay so then how would you do this the

okay so then how would you do this the only problem is that

only problem is that

only problem is that you don't know who's sick because

you don't know who's sick because

you don't know who's sick because especially with this disease

especially with this disease

especially with this disease if i see somebody who looks perfectly

if i see somebody who looks perfectly

if i see somebody who looks perfectly healthy the disease spreads two days

healthy the disease spreads two days

healthy the disease spreads two days before you have any symptoms

before you have any symptoms

before you have any symptoms and so it's actually not possible that's

and so it's actually not possible that's

and so it's actually not possible that's where the network theory comes in

where the network theory comes in

where the network theory comes in you caught it from someone what if

you caught it from someone what if

you caught it from someone what if we changed the paradigm and we said

we changed the paradigm and we said

we changed the paradigm and we said whenever there's a sickness

whenever there's a sickness

whenever there's a sickness tell everybody how many physical

tell everybody how many physical

tell everybody how many physical relationships

relationships

relationships separate them from the sickness that is

separate them from the sickness that is

separate them from the sickness that is the trivial idea we added

the trivial idea we added

the trivial idea we added the trivial idea was the distance

the trivial idea was the distance

the trivial idea was the distance between you and a disease

between you and a disease

between you and a disease is not measured in feet or seconds

is not measured in feet or seconds

is not measured in feet or seconds it's measured in terms of how many close

it's measured in terms of how many close

it's measured in terms of how many close physical relationships

physical relationships

physical relationships separate you like these six degrees of

separate you like these six degrees of

separate you like these six degrees of separation like linkedin

separation like linkedin

separation like linkedin simple idea what if we told everyone

simple idea what if we told everyone

simple idea what if we told everyone that it turns out that actually unlocks

that it turns out that actually unlocks

that it turns out that actually unlocks some interesting behavioral feedback

some interesting behavioral feedback

some interesting behavioral feedback loops which

loops which

loops which for example let me let me now jump to a

for example let me let me now jump to a

for example let me let me now jump to a non-covered example to show why this

non-covered example to show why this

non-covered example to show why this maybe it could be useful

maybe it could be useful

maybe it could be useful actually we think it could be quite

actually we think it could be quite

actually we think it could be quite useful imagine there was ebola or some

useful imagine there was ebola or some

useful imagine there was ebola or some hemorrhagic fever

hemorrhagic fever

hemorrhagic fever imagine it spread through contact

imagine it spread through contact

imagine it spread through contact through the air in fact pretend

through the air in fact pretend

through the air in fact pretend pretend that's a

pretend that's a

pretend that's a that's a disastrous disease it has high

that's a disastrous disease it has high

that's a disastrous disease it has high fatality rate

fatality rate

fatality rate and uh as you die you're bleeding out of

and uh as you die you're bleeding out of

and uh as you die you're bleeding out of every

every

every orifice okay so yeah

orifice okay so yeah

orifice okay so yeah no not pleasant not pleasant so the

no not pleasant not pleasant so the

no not pleasant not pleasant so the question is suppose that such a disease

question is suppose that such a disease

question is suppose that such a disease broke

broke

broke who would want to install an app that

who would want to install an app that

who would want to install an app that would tell them how many relationships

would tell them how many relationships

would tell them how many relationships away from them

away from them

away from them this disease had struck like a lot of

this disease had struck like a lot of

this disease had struck like a lot of people a lot of people in fact

people a lot of people in fact

people a lot of people in fact almost i don't want to say almost

almost i don't want to say almost

almost i don't want to say almost everyone that's a very strong statement

everyone that's a very strong statement

everyone that's a very strong statement but a very large number of people

but a very large number of people

but a very large number of people that's fascinating framing like the the

that's fascinating framing like the the

that's fascinating framing like the the more deadly and transmissible the

more deadly and transmissible the

more deadly and transmissible the disease

disease

disease the the stronger the incentive to

the the stronger the incentive to

the the stronger the incentive to install it

install it

install it in a positive sense the in in in the

in a positive sense the in in in the

in a positive sense the in in in the good

good

good feedback loop sense that's a really good

feedback loop sense that's a really good

feedback loop sense that's a really good example it's a really good way to frame

example it's a really good way to frame

example it's a really good way to frame it because

it because

it because with covet it was not as deadly

with covet it was not as deadly

with covet it was not as deadly as uh as potential pandemics could have

as uh as potential pandemics could have

as uh as potential pandemics could have been viruses could have been so

been viruses could have been so

been viruses could have been so it's sometimes muddled with how we think

it's sometimes muddled with how we think

it's sometimes muddled with how we think about it but yeah this is a really good

about it but yeah this is a really good

about it but yeah this is a really good framing if the virus was a lot more

framing if the virus was a lot more

framing if the virus was a lot more deadly

deadly

deadly you want to create a system that has a

you want to create a system that has a

you want to create a system that has a set of incentives that

set of incentives that

set of incentives that it quickly expresses a population where

it quickly expresses a population where

it quickly expresses a population where everybody is using it

everybody is using it

everybody is using it and is contributing in a positive way to

and is contributing in a positive way to

and is contributing in a positive way to the system

the system

the system exactly and actually that point you just

exactly and actually that point you just

exactly and actually that point you just made i don't take credit for that

made i don't take credit for that

made i don't take credit for that observation there was another person i

observation there was another person i

observation there was another person i talked to who pointed out that

talked to who pointed out that

talked to who pointed out that it's very interesting that this feedback

it's very interesting that this feedback

it's very interesting that this feedback loop is even more effective

loop is even more effective

loop is even more effective when the disease is worse and that's

when the disease is worse and that's

when the disease is worse and that's actually

actually

actually not a bad characteristic to have in your

not a bad characteristic to have in your

not a bad characteristic to have in your feedback loop if you're trying to help

feedback loop if you're trying to help

feedback loop if you're trying to help civilization keep running yeah it's a

civilization keep running yeah it's a

civilization keep running yeah it's a really

really

really it's in this dynamic like people

it's in this dynamic like people

it's in this dynamic like people figure out they dynamically figure out

figure out they dynamically figure out

figure out they dynamically figure out how bad the disease is

how bad the disease is

how bad the disease is the more it spreads and the deadlier it

the more it spreads and the deadlier it

the more it spreads and the deadlier it is as the people observe

is as the people observe

is as the people observe it as long as the spread of information

it as long as the spread of information

it as long as the spread of information like uh semantic information natural

like uh semantic information natural

like uh semantic information natural language information

language information

language information is closely aligned with the reality of

is closely aligned with the reality of

is closely aligned with the reality of the disease which is a whole nother

the disease which is a whole nother

the disease which is a whole nother conversation right

conversation right

conversation right we that's we might maybe we'll chat

we that's we might maybe we'll chat

we that's we might maybe we'll chat about that how we sort of

about that how we sort of

about that how we sort of make sure there's not misinformation

make sure there's not misinformation

make sure there's not misinformation while there's accurate information but

while there's accurate information but

while there's accurate information but that aside okay so this is a really nice

that aside okay so this is a really nice

that aside okay so this is a really nice property

property

property right and and just going on on that

right and and just going on on that

right and and just going on on that actually just talking more about what

actually just talking more about what

actually just talking more about what that could do and why we're so excited

that could do and why we're so excited

that could do and why we're so excited about

about

about it it's that not only would people want

it it's that not only would people want

it it's that not only would people want to install it

to install it

to install it what would they do if you start to see

what would they do if you start to see

what would they do if you start to see that this disease is getting closer and

that this disease is getting closer and

that this disease is getting closer and closer we we surveyed informally

closer we we surveyed informally

closer we we surveyed informally people but they said as we saw getting

people but they said as we saw getting

people but they said as we saw getting closer we would

closer we would

closer we would hide we would try to not have contacts

hide we would try to not have contacts

hide we would try to not have contacts but now you notice what this has just

but now you notice what this has just

but now you notice what this has just achieved the whole goal

achieved the whole goal

achieved the whole goal on on this whole exercise was you got

on on this whole exercise was you got

on on this whole exercise was you got the people who might be sick

the people who might be sick

the people who might be sick and you got everyone else set a and set

and you got everyone else set a and set

and you got everyone else set a and set b set a is the people who might be six

b set a is the people who might be six

b set a is the people who might be six that b is everyone else

that b is everyone else

that b is everyone else and for the entirety of the past uh

and for the entirety of the past uh

and for the entirety of the past uh contact tracing approaches

contact tracing approaches

contact tracing approaches you try to get set a to do things that

you try to get set a to do things that

you try to get set a to do things that might not be

might not be

might not be to their liking or their will because

to their liking or their will because

to their liking or their will because that's removing them from society

that's removing them from society

that's removing them from society yes we found out that there's two ways

yes we found out that there's two ways

yes we found out that there's two ways to separate set a from set b

to separate set a from set b

to separate set a from set b you can also let the people at set b at

you can also let the people at set b at

you can also let the people at set b at the fringe of set a

the fringe of set a

the fringe of set a attempt to remove themselves from this

attempt to remove themselves from this

attempt to remove themselves from this interface it's just it's the symmetry of

interface it's just it's the symmetry of

interface it's just it's the symmetry of a and b separation

a and b separation

a and b separation everyone was looking at a we look at b

everyone was looking at a we look at b

everyone was looking at a we look at b and suddenly b

and suddenly b

and suddenly b is in their incentive to do so beautiful

is in their incentive to do so beautiful

is in their incentive to do so beautiful so there's a virus that jumps from human

so there's a virus that jumps from human

so there's a virus that jumps from human to human

to human

to human so there's a network sometimes called

so there's a network sometimes called

so there's a network sometimes called graph

graph

graph of the spread of a virus it hops from

of the spread of a virus it hops from

of the spread of a virus it hops from person to person to person to person

person to person to person to person

person to person to person to person and each one of us individuals are

and each one of us individuals are

and each one of us individuals are sitting

sitting

sitting or plop plopped into that network we

or plop plopped into that network we

or plop plopped into that network we have

have

have close friends and relations and so on

close friends and relations and so on

close friends and relations and so on it's kind of fascinating to actually

it's kind of fascinating to actually

it's kind of fascinating to actually think about this network and we can

think about this network and we can

think about this network and we can maybe talk about the shapes of this kind

maybe talk about the shapes of this kind

maybe talk about the shapes of this kind of network

of network

of network because i was i was trying to think

because i was i was trying to think

because i was i was trying to think exactly this like how many people do i

exactly this like how many people do i

exactly this like how many people do i was i'm kind of an introvert not kind of

was i'm kind of an introvert not kind of

was i'm kind of an introvert not kind of i'm very much an introvert

i'm very much an introvert

i'm very much an introvert but so can i be explicit about the kind

but so can i be explicit about the kind

but so can i be explicit about the kind of people i

of people i

of people i meet in regular life say when it was

meet in regular life say when it was

meet in regular life say when it was completely opened up there's no pandemic

completely opened up there's no pandemic

completely opened up there's no pandemic there is a kind of network of cl and

there is a kind of network of cl and

there is a kind of network of cl and there's maybe

there's maybe

there's maybe um in the graph theoretic sense there's

um in the graph theoretic sense there's

um in the graph theoretic sense there's some weights

some weights

some weights or something about how

or something about how

or something about how close that relationship is in terms of

close that relationship is in terms of

close that relationship is in terms of the frequency visits

the frequency visits

the frequency visits the duration of business and all those

the duration of business and all those

the duration of business and all those kinds of things so you're saying

kinds of things so you're saying

kinds of things so you're saying we might want to be to create

we might want to be to create

we might want to be to create on top of that network a spread of

on top of that network a spread of

on top of that network a spread of information

information

information to let you know as the virus travels

to let you know as the virus travels

to let you know as the virus travels through this network how close is it

through this network how close is it

through this network how close is it getting to you

getting to you

getting to you and the number of hops away it is on

and the number of hops away it is on

and the number of hops away it is on that network

that network

that network is really powerful information that

is really powerful information that

is really powerful information that creates a positive uh feedback loop

creates a positive uh feedback loop

creates a positive uh feedback loop where you can act essentially

where you can act essentially

where you can act essentially anonymously

anonymously

anonymously uh and on your own like

uh and on your own like

uh and on your own like nobody's telling you what to do which is

nobody's telling you what to do which is

nobody's telling you what to do which is really important is decentralized

really important is decentralized

really important is decentralized and uh and not yeah whatever the

and uh and not yeah whatever the

and uh and not yeah whatever the opposite of authoritarian is

opposite of authoritarian is

opposite of authoritarian is but you get to sort of the american way

but you get to sort of the american way

but you get to sort of the american way you get to choose to do it yourself you

you get to choose to do it yourself you

you get to choose to do it yourself you have the freedom to do it

have the freedom to do it

have the freedom to do it yourself and you're incentivized to do

yourself and you're incentivized to do

yourself and you're incentivized to do it and you're most likely going to do it

it and you're most likely going to do it

it and you're most likely going to do it to to uh

to to uh

to to uh to protect yourself against um

to protect yourself against um

to protect yourself against um against you getting the disease as the

against you getting the disease as the

against you getting the disease as the the closer it gets to you based on the

the closer it gets to you based on the

the closer it gets to you based on the information that you have

information that you have

information that you have but uh can you maybe elaborate uh first

but uh can you maybe elaborate uh first

but uh can you maybe elaborate uh first of all brilliant

of all brilliant

of all brilliant uh whenever i saw the thing you're

uh whenever i saw the thing you're

uh whenever i saw the thing you're working on so forget for covid

working on so forget for covid

working on so forget for covid this is of course really relevant for

this is of course really relevant for

this is of course really relevant for covid

covid

covid but it's also probably relevant for

but it's also probably relevant for

but it's also probably relevant for future diseases as well so this

future diseases as well so this

future diseases as well so this uh that was the thing i'm nervous about

uh that was the thing i'm nervous about

uh that was the thing i'm nervous about like if this whole

like if this whole

like if this whole if our society shut down because of

if our society shut down because of

if our society shut down because of covid

covid

covid like what the heck is gonna happen

like what the heck is gonna happen

like what the heck is gonna happen when there's a much deadlier disease

when there's a much deadlier disease

when there's a much deadlier disease like this

like this

like this this is disappointing the whole time

this is disappointing the whole time

this is disappointing the whole time 2020 the whole time i'm just sitting

2020 the whole time i'm just sitting

2020 the whole time i'm just sitting like this

like this

like this like is the incompetence of

like is the incompetence of

like is the incompetence of everybody except the people developing

everybody except the people developing

everybody except the people developing vaccines

vaccines

vaccines uh the biologists are the only ones that

uh the biologists are the only ones that

uh the biologists are the only ones that got their stuff together

got their stuff together

got their stuff together but in terms of institutions and all

but in terms of institutions and all

but in terms of institutions and all that kind of stuff oh it's just been

that kind of stuff oh it's just been

that kind of stuff oh it's just been it's just been terrible

it's just been terrible

it's just been terrible but this is exactly the power of

but this is exactly the power of

but this is exactly the power of information

information

information and the power of information that

and the power of information that

and the power of information that doesn't limit personal freedom

doesn't limit personal freedom

doesn't limit personal freedom so your idea is brilliant okay

so your idea is brilliant okay

so your idea is brilliant okay mathematically can you maybe elaborate

mathematically can you maybe elaborate

mathematically can you maybe elaborate what are we talking about like how do

what are we talking about like how do

what are we talking about like how do you actually make that work

you actually make that work

you actually make that work what's involved sure first i'm going to

what's involved sure first i'm going to

what's involved sure first i'm going to reply to something you said about

reply to something you said about

reply to something you said about the freedom inside this because actually

the freedom inside this because actually

the freedom inside this because actually that was the idea the idea

that was the idea the idea

that was the idea the idea is this is game theory right and

is this is game theory right and

is this is game theory right and effectively what we did is analogous to

effectively what we did is analogous to

effectively what we did is analogous to free market economy as opposed to

free market economy as opposed to

free market economy as opposed to central planning

central planning

central planning yeah if you just line up the set of

yeah if you just line up the set of

yeah if you just line up the set of incentives correctly

incentives correctly

incentives correctly so that people have in their purely

so that people have in their purely

so that people have in their purely selfish behavior

selfish behavior

selfish behavior are contributing to the optimization of

are contributing to the optimization of

are contributing to the optimization of the global function

the global function

the global function yes that's it and the the point of what

yes that's it and the the point of what

yes that's it and the the point of what we do i guess in mathematics is we try

we do i guess in mathematics is we try

we do i guess in mathematics is we try to explore the search space

to explore the search space

to explore the search space to go and find out as many possibilities

to go and find out as many possibilities

to go and find out as many possibilities as there are and in this case it's an

as there are and in this case it's an

as there are and in this case it's an apply

apply

apply in this case it's an applied search

in this case it's an applied search

in this case it's an applied search space that's why the inputs from design

space that's why the inputs from design

space that's why the inputs from design user experience design and actual people

user experience design and actual people

user experience design and actual people are important

are important

are important but you asked about um i guess that the

but you asked about um i guess that the

but you asked about um i guess that the tech the mathematical or the technical

tech the mathematical or the technical

tech the mathematical or the technical things

things

things underpinning it so i think the first

underpinning it so i think the first

underpinning it so i think the first thing i'll say is

thing i'll say is

thing i'll say is we wanted to make this thing not require

we wanted to make this thing not require

we wanted to make this thing not require your personal information

your personal information

your personal information and so in order to do that what gave me

and so in order to do that what gave me

and so in order to do that what gave me the confidence

the confidence

the confidence to i guess lead our team to run at the

to i guess lead our team to run at the

to i guess lead our team to run at the beginning is we saw that this could be

beginning is we saw that this could be

beginning is we saw that this could be done without using gps information

done without using gps information

done without using gps information so technically what's going on is if two

so technically what's going on is if two

so technically what's going on is if two smartphones

smartphones

smartphones it's a smartphone app if two smartphones

it's a smartphone app if two smartphones

it's a smartphone app if two smartphones have this thing installed

have this thing installed

have this thing installed they just communicate with each other by

they just communicate with each other by

they just communicate with each other by bluetooth

bluetooth

bluetooth to go and find out how far they can they

to go and find out how far they can they

to go and find out how far they can they can detect nearby things by bluetooth

can detect nearby things by bluetooth

can detect nearby things by bluetooth and then they can find out that these

and then they can find out that these

and then they can find out that these two phones were approximately such and

two phones were approximately such and

two phones were approximately such and such distance apart

such distance apart

such distance apart and that kind of relative proximity

and that kind of relative proximity

and that kind of relative proximity information is enough to construct this

information is enough to construct this

information is enough to construct this big network

big network

big network okay so the physical network is

okay so the physical network is

okay so the physical network is constructed based on proximity

constructed based on proximity

constructed based on proximity that's through bluetooth and you don't

that's through bluetooth and you don't

that's through bluetooth and you don't have to specify

have to specify

have to specify your exact location it's the proximity

your exact location it's the proximity

your exact location it's the proximity i'm not using the pythagorean theorem

i'm not using the pythagorean theorem

i'm not using the pythagorean theorem basically i mean if i just knew the gps

basically i mean if i just knew the gps

basically i mean if i just knew the gps coordinates we could use the pythagorean

coordinates we could use the pythagorean

coordinates we could use the pythagorean theorem too sorry that's just how i call

theorem too sorry that's just how i call

theorem too sorry that's just how i call it

it

it distance formula whatever you want to

distance formula whatever you want to

distance formula whatever you want to call it

call it

call it [Laughter]

[Laughter]

[Laughter] uh yeah so we're not doing the old

uh yeah so we're not doing the old

uh yeah so we're not doing the old pythagorean

pythagorean

pythagorean based violation of privacy okay

based violation of privacy okay

based violation of privacy okay [Laughter]

[Laughter]

[Laughter] but so is that

but so is that

but so is that is that enough to form to give you

is that enough to form to give you

is that enough to form to give you enough

enough

enough information about physical connection to

information about physical connection to

information about physical connection to another human being

another human being

another human being is there a time element there is there

is there a time element there is there

is there a time element there is there so

so

so okay that sounds like a really strong

okay that sounds like a really strong

okay that sounds like a really strong like low hanging fruit like if you have

like low hanging fruit like if you have

like low hanging fruit like if you have that you could probably go really really

that you could probably go really really

that you could probably go really really far

far

far my natural question is is there extra

my natural question is is there extra

my natural question is is there extra information you can add on top of that

information you can add on top of that

information you can add on top of that like

like

like the duration of the physical proximity

the duration of the physical proximity

the duration of the physical proximity uh so first of all we actually do

uh so first of all we actually do

uh so first of all we actually do estimate the duration

estimate the duration

estimate the duration but the way we estimate the duration is

but the way we estimate the duration is

but the way we estimate the duration is like how a movie is filmed

like how a movie is filmed

like how a movie is filmed in the sense that every so often every

in the sense that every so often every

in the sense that every so often every few minutes we

few minutes we

few minutes we check what's nearby it's it's like how a

check what's nearby it's it's like how a

check what's nearby it's it's like how a movie is filmed you take lots of

movie is filmed you take lots of

movie is filmed you take lots of snapshots

snapshots

snapshots yes so there's no way in a battery

yes so there's no way in a battery

yes so there's no way in a battery efficient way

efficient way

efficient way to really keep track of that proximity

to really keep track of that proximity

to really keep track of that proximity however fortunately we're using

however fortunately we're using

however fortunately we're using probability the fact is

probability the fact is

probability the fact is the paradigm that we're using is it's

the paradigm that we're using is it's

the paradigm that we're using is it's not super important

not super important

not super important if you run into that person only for 10

if you run into that person only for 10

if you run into that person only for 10 minutes at the grocery store

minutes at the grocery store

minutes at the grocery store if that's a stranger that you run into

if that's a stranger that you run into

if that's a stranger that you run into 10 minutes in this grocery store

10 minutes in this grocery store

10 minutes in this grocery store that's not going to be relevant for our

that's not going to be relevant for our

that's not going to be relevant for our paradigm because our paradigm is not

paradigm because our paradigm is not

paradigm because our paradigm is not telling you who were you around before

telling you who were you around before

telling you who were you around before and might therefore

and might therefore

and might therefore have gotten infected by already ours is

have gotten infected by already ours is

have gotten infected by already ours is about predicting the future

about predicting the future

about predicting the future we changed from i mean the standard

we changed from i mean the standard

we changed from i mean the standard paradigm was what already happened

paradigm was what already happened

paradigm was what already happened quick damage control ours predict the

quick damage control ours predict the

quick damage control ours predict the future if you run into that person once

future if you run into that person once

future if you run into that person once in the grocery store today and never see

in the grocery store today and never see

in the grocery store today and never see them again it's irrelevant for

them again it's irrelevant for

them again it's irrelevant for predicting the future

predicting the future

predicting the future and therefore for ours what really

and therefore for ours what really

and therefore for ours what really matters is the many hours

matters is the many hours

matters is the many hours around the other person at which point

around the other person at which point

around the other person at which point if you're scanning every five to eight

if you're scanning every five to eight

if you're scanning every five to eight minutes

minutes

minutes that's going to come out in the problem

that's going to come out in the problem

that's going to come out in the problem like statistically speaking it's going

like statistically speaking it's going

like statistically speaking it's going to come out as a strong relationship and

to come out as a strong relationship and

to come out as a strong relationship and a person

a person

a person in the grocery store is going to wash

in the grocery store is going to wash

in the grocery store is going to wash out that's not an important physical

out that's not an important physical

out that's not an important physical relationship

relationship

relationship i mean this is brilliant what uh

i mean this is brilliant what uh

i mean this is brilliant what uh how difficult is it to make work so you

how difficult is it to make work so you

how difficult is it to make work so you said one there's a mathematical

said one there's a mathematical

said one there's a mathematical component

component

component that we just kind of talked about and

that we just kind of talked about and

that we just kind of talked about and then there's the user experience

then there's the user experience

then there's the user experience component

component

component so how difficult is it to go just like

so how difficult is it to go just like

so how difficult is it to go just like you built the video game

you built the video game

you built the video game alien attack from zero to

alien attack from zero to

alien attack from zero to to completion what's involved how

to completion what's involved how

to completion what's involved how difficult is it

difficult is it

difficult is it so i'm going to answer that question in

so i'm going to answer that question in

so i'm going to answer that question in terms of building the product

terms of building the product

terms of building the product but then i'm also going to acknowledge

but then i'm also going to acknowledge

but then i'm also going to acknowledge that just having an

that just having an

that just having an app doesn't make it useful because the

app doesn't make it useful because the

app doesn't make it useful because the the that's actually maybe the easy part

the that's actually maybe the easy part

the that's actually maybe the easy part if you know what i mean there's like all

if you know what i mean there's like all

if you know what i mean there's like all of this stuff about rollout adoption and

of this stuff about rollout adoption and

of this stuff about rollout adoption and awareness

awareness

awareness but let's focus on the app part first so

but let's focus on the app part first so

but let's focus on the app part first so that's again why i said

that's again why i said

that's again why i said the team is incredible so we have a

the team is incredible so we have a

the team is incredible so we have a bunch of people

bunch of people

bunch of people who let's just say that the technology

who let's just say that the technology

who let's just say that the technology that we use to make it

that we use to make it

that we use to make it is not the standard way you make an app

is not the standard way you make an app

is not the standard way you make an app if you think about a standard

if you think about a standard

if you think about a standard ios app or android app those are a user

ios app or android app those are a user

ios app or android app those are a user interface

interface

interface that contacts a web server and sends

that contacts a web server and sends

that contacts a web server and sends some information back and forth

some information back and forth

some information back and forth we're doing some stuff that has to hook

we're doing some stuff that has to hook

we're doing some stuff that has to hook into the operating system

into the operating system

into the operating system of saying let's go use bluetooth for

of saying let's go use bluetooth for

of saying let's go use bluetooth for something it wasn't really meant for

something it wasn't really meant for

something it wasn't really meant for right so there's that part and by the

right so there's that part and by the

right so there's that part and by the way what is the app called

way what is the app called

way what is the app called oh it's called novid covered with an ad

oh it's called novid covered with an ad

oh it's called novid covered with an ad very nice so you have to hook into

very nice so you have to hook into

very nice so you have to hook into bluetooth you're saying you have to do

bluetooth you're saying you have to do

bluetooth you're saying you have to do that

that

that um beyond the permissions that are

um beyond the permissions that are

um beyond the permissions that are like at the very surface level provided

like at the very surface level provided

like at the very surface level provided on the phone

on the phone

on the phone well i don't want to call them

well i don't want to call them

well i don't want to call them permissions i just want to say that's

permissions i just want to say that's

permissions i just want to say that's not what you usually do with bluetooth

not what you usually do with bluetooth

not what you usually do with bluetooth gotcha

gotcha

gotcha usually with bluetooth you say do i have

usually with bluetooth you say do i have

usually with bluetooth you say do i have headphones nearby

headphones nearby

headphones nearby yes okay i'm done you don't go and say

yes okay i'm done you don't go and say

yes okay i'm done you don't go and say do i have headphones nearby

do i have headphones nearby

do i have headphones nearby or do i have another phone nearby which

or do i have another phone nearby which

or do i have another phone nearby which is doing something and then keep asking

is doing something and then keep asking

is doing something and then keep asking that system keep

that system keep

that system keep asking the question right so so this is

asking the question right so so this is

asking the question right so so this is actually not easy and

actually not easy and

actually not easy and i mean there were some parts of it which

i mean there were some parts of it which

i mean there were some parts of it which actually a lot of people had tried

actually a lot of people had tried

actually a lot of people had tried unsuccessfully

unsuccessfully

unsuccessfully actually it's known that for example the

actually it's known that for example the

actually it's known that for example the uk was trying to do something

uk was trying to do something

uk was trying to do something similar and the problem they ran into

similar and the problem they ran into

similar and the problem they ran into was when you program things on ios

was when you program things on ios

was when you program things on ios ios is very good at making it hard to do

ios is very good at making it hard to do

ios is very good at making it hard to do things in the background

things in the background

things in the background and so there was quite a lot of effort

and so there was quite a lot of effort

and so there was quite a lot of effort required to go and make this thing work

required to go and make this thing work

required to go and make this thing work so the whole point this thing would run

so the whole point this thing would run

so the whole point this thing would run in the background and

in the background and

in the background and ios i mean most

ios i mean most

ios i mean most android probably as well right but yeah

android probably as well right but yeah

android probably as well right but yeah iowa certainly makes it difficult for

iowa certainly makes it difficult for

iowa certainly makes it difficult for something to run in the background

something to run in the background

something to run in the background especially when it's to eating up your

especially when it's to eating up your

especially when it's to eating up your battery right

battery right

battery right ah well we wanted to make sure we didn't

ah well we wanted to make sure we didn't

ah well we wanted to make sure we didn't eat up the battery so that one we can we

eat up the battery so that one we can we

eat up the battery so that one we can we actually are very proud of the fact that

actually are very proud of the fact that

actually are very proud of the fact that ours uses very little battery

ours uses very little battery

ours uses very little battery uh actually even if compared to apple's

uh actually even if compared to apple's

uh actually even if compared to apple's own system

own system

own system so beautiful so what else is required to

so beautiful so what else is required to

so beautiful so what else is required to make this thing work

make this thing work

make this thing work right so the the key was that you had to

right so the the key was that you had to

right so the the key was that you had to do significant amount of work on the

do significant amount of work on the

do significant amount of work on the actual mobile app development

actual mobile app development

actual mobile app development which fortunately the team that we

which fortunately the team that we

which fortunately the team that we brought was this kind of general

brought was this kind of general

brought was this kind of general thinkers

thinkers

thinkers where we would dig in deep into the

where we would dig in deep into the

where we would dig in deep into the operating system documentation and the

operating system documentation and the

operating system documentation and the api libraries

api libraries

api libraries so we got that working but there's

so we got that working but there's

so we got that working but there's another angle which is you also need the

another angle which is you also need the

another angle which is you also need the servers to be able to compute fast

servers to be able to compute fast

servers to be able to compute fast enough

enough

enough which is tying back to this old school

which is tying back to this old school

which is tying back to this old school computer programming competitions and

computer programming competitions and

computer programming competitions and math olympiads

math olympiads

math olympiads in fact our team that was working on the

in fact our team that was working on the

in fact our team that was working on the algorithm and back-end side

algorithm and back-end side

algorithm and back-end side included several people who had been in

included several people who had been in

included several people who had been in these

these

these competitions from before which i happen

competitions from before which i happen

competitions from before which i happen to know because i

to know because i

to know because i i do coach the team for the math yes and

i do coach the team for the math yes and

i do coach the team for the math yes and so we were able to bring people

so we were able to bring people

so we were able to bring people in to build servers a server

in to build servers a server

in to build servers a server infrastructure in

infrastructure in

infrastructure in c plus actually so that we could support

c plus actually so that we could support

c plus actually so that we could support significant numbers of people

significant numbers of people

significant numbers of people without needing tons of servers is there

without needing tons of servers is there

without needing tons of servers is there some distributed algorithms

some distributed algorithms

some distributed algorithms working here or you basically have to

working here or you basically have to

working here or you basically have to keep

keep

keep in in the same place the entire graph as

in in the same place the entire graph as

in in the same place the entire graph as it builds because

it builds because

it builds because especially the more and more people use

especially the more and more people use

especially the more and more people use it the bigger the bigger the graph gets

it the bigger the bigger the graph gets

it the bigger the bigger the graph gets i mean this is very difficult uh scaling

i mean this is very difficult uh scaling

i mean this is very difficult uh scaling problem right

problem right

problem right ah so that's actually why uh this

ah so that's actually why uh this

ah so that's actually why uh this computer algorithm competition stuff was

computer algorithm competition stuff was

computer algorithm competition stuff was handy

handy

handy it's because there are only about

it's because there are only about

it's because there are only about seven to eight giga people in the world

seven to eight giga people in the world

seven to eight giga people in the world yeah

yeah

yeah that's not that many so if you can make

that's not that many so if you can make

that's not that many so if you can make your algorithms linear time or almost

your algorithms linear time or almost

your algorithms linear time or almost linear time

linear time

linear time a computer operates in gigahertz yeah i

a computer operates in gigahertz yeah i

a computer operates in gigahertz yeah i only need to do one run

only need to do one run

only need to do one run one one recalculation every hour in

one one recalculation every hour in

one one recalculation every hour in terms of telling people how far away

terms of telling people how far away

terms of telling people how far away these dangers are

these dangers are

these dangers are yes so i suddenly have 3600 seconds

yes so i suddenly have 3600 seconds

yes so i suddenly have 3600 seconds and my cpu cores are running in

and my cpu cores are running in

and my cpu cores are running in gigahertz and

gigahertz and

gigahertz and at most they're eight giga people well

at most they're eight giga people well

at most they're eight giga people well you're skipping over the fact that uh

you're skipping over the fact that uh

you're skipping over the fact that uh there's n squared potential connections

there's n squared potential connections

there's n squared potential connections between people

between people

between people so how do you get around the fact that

so how do you get around the fact that

so how do you get around the fact that uh

uh

uh you know that we you know the potential

you know that we you know the potential

you know that we you know the potential set of relationship any one of us could

set of relationship any one of us could

set of relationship any one of us could have

have

have 8 billion so it's 8 billion times uh

8 billion so it's 8 billion times uh

8 billion so it's 8 billion times uh squared

squared

squared that's you that's potential amount of

that's you that's potential amount of

that's you that's potential amount of data you have to be storing

data you have to be storing

data you have to be storing and computing over and constantly

and computing over and constantly

and computing over and constantly updating so the way we dealt with that

updating so the way we dealt with that

updating so the way we dealt with that is we actually expect

is we actually expect

is we actually expect that the typical network is very sparse

that the typical network is very sparse

that the typical network is very sparse the

the

the the technical term sparse would mean

the technical term sparse would mean

the technical term sparse would mean that the average degree or the average

that the average degree or the average

that the average degree or the average number of connections that a person has

number of connections that a person has

number of connections that a person has is going to be at most like 100 strong

is going to be at most like 100 strong

is going to be at most like 100 strong connections that you care about

connections that you care about

connections that you care about if you if you think of it almost in

if you if you think of it almost in

if you if you think of it almost in terms of the heavy hitters actually

terms of the heavy hitters actually

terms of the heavy hitters actually in most people's lives 100 if we just

in most people's lives 100 if we just

in most people's lives 100 if we just kept track of their top 100

kept track of their top 100

kept track of their top 100 interactions that's probably most of the

interactions that's probably most of the

interactions that's probably most of the signal

signal

signal yeah yeah i i i'm saddened to think

yeah yeah i i i'm saddened to think

yeah yeah i i i'm saddened to think that i might not be even in a double

that i might not be even in a double

that i might not be even in a double digits but oh

digits but oh

digits but oh i i was intentionally giving a crazy

i i was intentionally giving a crazy

i i was intentionally giving a crazy number to account for college students

you call oh those are the who you're

you call oh those are the who you're calling the heavy hitters the people who

calling the heavy hitters the people who

calling the heavy hitters the people who are like the social butterflies

are like the social butterflies

are like the social butterflies yeah yeah yeah i need to uh um i'd love

yeah yeah yeah i need to uh um i'd love

yeah yeah yeah i need to uh um i'd love to know that information about myself by

to know that information about myself by

to know that information about myself by the way the

the way the

the way the that i do do you uh expose the graph

that i do do you uh expose the graph

that i do do you uh expose the graph like how many like about yourself how

like how many like about yourself how

like how many like about yourself how many connections you have

many connections you have

many connections you have we do expose to each person how many

we do expose to each person how many

we do expose to each person how many direct connections they have that's

direct connections they have that's

direct connections they have that's great but for privacy purposes

great but for privacy purposes

great but for privacy purposes we don't tell anybody who their

we don't tell anybody who their

we don't tell anybody who their connections like how their connections

connections like how their connections

connections like how their connections are interconnected yes gotcha

are interconnected yes gotcha

are interconnected yes gotcha but at the same time we do expose also

but at the same time we do expose also

but at the same time we do expose also to everyone an interesting chart that

to everyone an interesting chart that

to everyone an interesting chart that says

says

says here's how many people you have that

here's how many people you have that

here's how many people you have that you're connected to directly

you're connected to directly

you're connected to directly here's how many at distance two meaning

here's how many at distance two meaning

here's how many at distance two meaning via

via

via people and then here's how many at

people and then here's how many at

people and then here's how many at distance three and the reason we do that

distance three and the reason we do that

distance three and the reason we do that is that actually ends up being a dynamic

is that actually ends up being a dynamic

is that actually ends up being a dynamic that also boosts adoption it drives

that also boosts adoption it drives

that also boosts adoption it drives another feedback loop

another feedback loop

another feedback loop the reason is because we saw actually

the reason is because we saw actually

the reason is because we saw actually when we deployed this in some

when we deployed this in some

when we deployed this in some universities

universities

universities that when people see on their app that

that when people see on their app that

that when people see on their app that they are

they are

they are indirectly connected to hundreds or

indirectly connected to hundreds or

indirectly connected to hundreds or thousands of other people

thousands of other people

thousands of other people they get excited and they tell other

they get excited and they tell other

they get excited and they tell other people hey let's download this app yeah

people hey let's download this app yeah

people hey let's download this app yeah but you know we also saw in those

but you know we also saw in those

but you know we also saw in those examples especially looking at the

examples especially looking at the

examples especially looking at the screenshots people gave

screenshots people gave

screenshots people gave that is hit as soon as the typical

that is hit as soon as the typical

that is hit as soon as the typical person

person

person has two or three other direct

has two or three other direct

has two or three other direct connections on the system

connections on the system

connections on the system because that means that our app has

because that means that our app has

because that means that our app has reached a virality

reached a virality

reached a virality are not of two to three the key is we

are not of two to three the key is we

are not of two to three the key is we were making a viral app to fight a virus

were making a viral app to fight a virus

were making a viral app to fight a virus spreading on the same network that the

spreading on the same network that the

spreading on the same network that the virus spreads out

virus spreads out

virus spreads out so you're trying to out virus the virus

so you're trying to out virus the virus

so you're trying to out virus the virus that's right

that's right

that's right that's exactly right okay great what

that's exactly right okay great what

that's exactly right okay great what have you learned

have you learned

have you learned from this whole experience in terms of

from this whole experience in terms of

from this whole experience in terms of um

um

um let's say for covid but for future

let's say for covid but for future

let's say for covid but for future pandemics as well

pandemics as well

pandemics as well is it possible to use the power

is it possible to use the power

is it possible to use the power information here of networked

information here of networked

information here of networked information

information

information as the virus spreads and travels in

as the virus spreads and travels in

as the virus spreads and travels in order to basically keep the society

order to basically keep the society

order to basically keep the society open is it possible for for people to

open is it possible for for people to

open is it possible for for people to protect themselves with this information

protect themselves with this information

protect themselves with this information or do you still have to have most like

or do you still have to have most like

or do you still have to have most like in this overarching policy of everybody

in this overarching policy of everybody

in this overarching policy of everybody should stay at home

should stay at home

should stay at home all that kind of thing we are trying to

all that kind of thing we are trying to

all that kind of thing we are trying to answer that question right now

answer that question right now

answer that question right now so the answer is we don't know yet but

so the answer is we don't know yet but

so the answer is we don't know yet but that's actually why we're very happy

that's actually why we're very happy

that's actually why we're very happy that now the idea has started to become

that now the idea has started to become

that now the idea has started to become become more widely known

become more widely known

become more widely known and we're already starting to

and we're already starting to

and we're already starting to collaborate with epidemiologists

collaborate with epidemiologists

collaborate with epidemiologists again i'm just a mathematician right and

again i'm just a mathematician right and

again i'm just a mathematician right and a mathematician should not be the person

a mathematician should not be the person

a mathematician should not be the person who is telling everybody

who is telling everybody

who is telling everybody this will definitely work but because of

this will definitely work but because of

this will definitely work but because of the potential power

the potential power

the potential power of this approach especially the

of this approach especially the

of this approach especially the potential power of this being an

potential power of this being an

potential power of this being an end game for kovid we have gotten the

end game for kovid we have gotten the

end game for kovid we have gotten the interest

interest

interest of real researchers and we're now

of real researchers and we're now

of real researchers and we're now working together

working together

working together to try to actually understand the answer

to try to actually understand the answer

to try to actually understand the answer to that question because you see

to that question because you see

to that question because you see there's a theory so what i can share is

there's a theory so what i can share is

there's a theory so what i can share is the mathematics of

the mathematics of

the mathematics of here's why there's some hope that this

here's why there's some hope that this

here's why there's some hope that this would work yeah and that's because

would work yeah and that's because

would work yeah and that's because i'm talking about end game now end game

i'm talking about end game now end game

i'm talking about end game now end game means you have very few cases

means you have very few cases

means you have very few cases but everywhere we're always thinking

but everywhere we're always thinking

but everywhere we're always thinking once there's few cases then does that

once there's few cases then does that

once there's few cases then does that mean we now open up

mean we now open up

mean we now open up once you open up in the past then the

once you open up in the past then the

once you open up in the past then the cases go up again

cases go up again

cases go up again until you have to lock down again yeah

until you have to lock down again yeah

until you have to lock down again yeah and now when we talk about the dynamic

and now when we talk about the dynamic

and now when we talk about the dynamic process that makes

process that makes

process that makes it's guaranteeing you always have cases

it's guaranteeing you always have cases

it's guaranteeing you always have cases until you have the great vaccines which

until you have the great vaccines which

until you have the great vaccines which is

is

is you know we both got vaccinated this is

you know we both got vaccinated this is

you know we both got vaccinated this is this is good but at the same time why

this is good but at the same time why

this is good but at the same time why i'm thinking this is still important is

i'm thinking this is still important is

i'm thinking this is still important is because we know that

because we know that

because we know that many vaccine makers have said they're

many vaccine makers have said they're

many vaccine makers have said they're preparing for the next dose next year

preparing for the next dose next year

preparing for the next dose next year and if we have a perpetual thing where

and if we have a perpetual thing where

and if we have a perpetual thing where you just always need a new vaccine every

you just always need a new vaccine every

you just always need a new vaccine every year

year

year it could actually be beneficial to make

it could actually be beneficial to make

it could actually be beneficial to make sure we have as many other techniques as

sure we have as many other techniques as

sure we have as many other techniques as possible

possible

possible for parts of the world that can't afford

for parts of the world that can't afford

for parts of the world that can't afford for example

for example

for example that kind of distribution yeah so

that kind of distribution yeah so

that kind of distribution yeah so actually no matter no matter how deadly

actually no matter no matter how deadly

actually no matter no matter how deadly the virus is

the virus is

the virus is no matter how many things whether you

no matter how many things whether you

no matter how many things whether you have a vaccine or not

have a vaccine or not

have a vaccine or not it's still useful to be having this

it's still useful to be having this

it's still useful to be having this information yes because

information yes because

information yes because to stay home or not depending on how

to stay home or not depending on how

to stay home or not depending on how risky like

risky like

risky like i'm a big fan just like you said of uh

i'm a big fan just like you said of uh

i'm a big fan just like you said of uh having the freedom

having the freedom

having the freedom for you to decide how risk-averse you

for you to decide how risk-averse you

for you to decide how risk-averse you want to be right

want to be right

want to be right and depending on your own conditions but

and depending on your own conditions but

and depending on your own conditions but also on the state of like what you

also on the state of like what you

also on the state of like what you just how dangerously you like to live so

just how dangerously you like to live so

just how dangerously you like to live so i think that actually makes a lot of

i think that actually makes a lot of

i think that actually makes a lot of sense and i also think that

sense and i also think that

sense and i also think that um since we're when we when you think of

um since we're when we when you think of

um since we're when we when you think of disease spreading

disease spreading

disease spreading it spreads in aggregate in the sense

it spreads in aggregate in the sense

it spreads in aggregate in the sense that

that

that uh if there are some people who maybe

uh if there are some people who maybe

uh if there are some people who maybe are more

are more

are more risk tolerant because of other things in

risk tolerant because of other things in

risk tolerant because of other things in their life well there might also be

their life well there might also be

their life well there might also be other people who are

other people who are

other people who are less risk tolerance and then those

less risk tolerance and then those

less risk tolerance and then those people decide to

people decide to

people decide to isolate but what matters is in the

isolate but what matters is in the

isolate but what matters is in the aggregate that this are naught of the

aggregate that this are naught of the

aggregate that this are naught of the infection

infection

infection uh spreading drops below one and so the

uh spreading drops below one and so the

uh spreading drops below one and so the key is if you if you can empower people

key is if you if you can empower people

key is if you if you can empower people with that power to make that decision

with that power to make that decision

with that power to make that decision you might actually still be able to

you might actually still be able to

you might actually still be able to drive that are not down below one

drive that are not down below one

drive that are not down below one yeah and also this is me talking i

yeah and also this is me talking i

yeah and also this is me talking i yes people get a little bit nervous i

yes people get a little bit nervous i

yes people get a little bit nervous i think

think

think with uh information somehow mapping to

with uh information somehow mapping to

with uh information somehow mapping to privacy violation but

privacy violation but

privacy violation but i i first of all in the approach you're

i i first of all in the approach you're

i i first of all in the approach you're describing

describing

describing that's respecting anonymity

that's respecting anonymity

that's respecting anonymity but i would love to have information

but i would love to have information

but i would love to have information from the very beginning

from the very beginning

from the very beginning from march and april of last year

from march and april of last year

from march and april of last year almost like a map of like where

almost like a map of like where

almost like a map of like where it's risky and where it's not to go

it's risky and where it's not to go

it's risky and where it's not to go and not map based on sort of the exact

and not map based on sort of the exact

and not map based on sort of the exact location of people but where people

location of people but where people

location of people but where people usually hang out kind of thing

usually hang out kind of thing

usually hang out kind of thing just maybe not necessarily about

just maybe not necessarily about

just maybe not necessarily about actual location but just maybe

actual location but just maybe

actual location but just maybe activities

activities

activities like just to have information about what

like just to have information about what

like just to have information about what is

is

is what is good to do or not you know uh in

what is good to do or not you know uh in

what is good to do or not you know uh in terms of like safety

terms of like safety

terms of like safety is it okay to run outside and not is it

is it okay to run outside and not is it

is it okay to run outside and not is it okay to go to a restaurant or not

okay to go to a restaurant or not

okay to go to a restaurant or not i just feel like we're operating the

i just feel like we're operating the

i just feel like we're operating the blind and then what you had

blind and then what you had

blind and then what you had is a very imperfect signal which is like

is a very imperfect signal which is like

is a very imperfect signal which is like basically politicians

basically politicians

basically politicians desperately trying to make statements

desperately trying to make statements

desperately trying to make statements about what is safe and not they don't

about what is safe and not they don't

about what is safe and not they don't know what the heck they're doing

know what the heck they're doing

know what the heck they're doing they have a bunch of smart scientists

they have a bunch of smart scientists

they have a bunch of smart scientists telling them stuff and the scientists

telling them stuff and the scientists

telling them stuff and the scientists themselves

themselves

themselves also very important don't always know

also very important don't always know

also very important don't always know what they're doing

what they're doing

what they're doing epidemiology is not

epidemiology is not

epidemiology is not is as much an art as a science you're

is as much an art as a science you're

is as much an art as a science you're desperately trying to predict the future

desperately trying to predict the future

desperately trying to predict the future which nobody can do

which nobody can do

which nobody can do and then you're trying to speak with

and then you're trying to speak with

and then you're trying to speak with some level of authority

some level of authority

some level of authority i mean if i were to criticize scientists

i mean if i were to criticize scientists

i mean if i were to criticize scientists they spoke with too much authority

they spoke with too much authority

they spoke with too much authority it's okay to say i'm not sure but then

it's okay to say i'm not sure but then

it's okay to say i'm not sure but then they think like if i say i'm not sure

they think like if i say i'm not sure

they think like if i say i'm not sure then there's going to be a distrust what

then there's going to be a distrust what

then there's going to be a distrust what they realize is when you're wrong and

they realize is when you're wrong and

they realize is when you're wrong and you say i'm sure

you say i'm sure

you say i'm sure it's going to lead to more distrust so

it's going to lead to more distrust so

it's going to lead to more distrust so there's this imperfect like

there's this imperfect like

there's this imperfect like just chaotic messy system of people

just chaotic messy system of people

just chaotic messy system of people trying to figure out with very little

trying to figure out with very little

trying to figure out with very little information

information

information and what you're proposing is just a huge

and what you're proposing is just a huge

and what you're proposing is just a huge amount of information

amount of information

amount of information and information is power is there um

and information is power is there um

and information is power is there um challenges with adoption that you see in

challenges with adoption that you see in

challenges with adoption that you see in the future

the future

the future here so there's uh maybe we could speak

here so there's uh maybe we could speak

here so there's uh maybe we could speak to there's approaches i guess from

to there's approaches i guess from

to there's approaches i guess from google

google

google there's different people that have tried

there's different people that have tried

there's different people that have tried similar kind of ideas

similar kind of ideas

similar kind of ideas not in you have a quite a novel idea

not in you have a quite a novel idea

not in you have a quite a novel idea actually

actually

actually but speaking the umbrella idea of

but speaking the umbrella idea of

but speaking the umbrella idea of contact tracing

contact tracing

contact tracing is is there is there something you can

is is there is there something you can

is is there is there something you can comment about

comment about

comment about why their approaches haven't been fully

why their approaches haven't been fully

why their approaches haven't been fully adopted

adopted

adopted is there challenges there is there is

is there challenges there is there is

is there challenges there is there is there reasons why novid might be a

there reasons why novid might be a

there reasons why novid might be a better idea moving forward

better idea moving forward

better idea moving forward in general just about adoption yeah so

in general just about adoption yeah so

in general just about adoption yeah so first of all i want to say i always have

first of all i want to say i always have

first of all i want to say i always have respect for the

respect for the

respect for the methods that other people use and so

methods that other people use and so

methods that other people use and so it's good to see that other people have

it's good to see that other people have

it's good to see that other people have been trying

been trying

been trying but what we have noticed is that the

but what we have noticed is that the

but what we have noticed is that the difference between our

difference between our

difference between our value proposition to the user and the

value proposition to the user and the

value proposition to the user and the value proposition to the user delivered

value proposition to the user delivered

value proposition to the user delivered by everything that was made before

by everything that was made before

by everything that was made before is that unfortunately the action of

is that unfortunately the action of

is that unfortunately the action of installing

installing

installing a standard contact tracing app will then

a standard contact tracing app will then

a standard contact tracing app will then tell you

tell you

tell you after you have already been exposed to

after you have already been exposed to

after you have already been exposed to the disease

the disease

the disease so that you can protect other people

so that you can protect other people

so that you can protect other people from you and what that does to your

from you and what that does to your

from you and what that does to your own direct probability of getting sick

own direct probability of getting sick

own direct probability of getting sick if you think about it

if you think about it

if you think about it suppose you were making the decision

suppose you were making the decision

suppose you were making the decision should i or should i not install one of

should i or should i not install one of

should i or should i not install one of those apps

those apps

those apps yeah what does that do to your own

yeah what does that do to your own

yeah what does that do to your own probability of getting sick

probability of getting sick

probability of getting sick it's close to zero this is uh the sad

it's close to zero this is uh the sad

it's close to zero this is uh the sad thing you're

thing you're

thing you're um you're speaking to not sad i suppose

um you're speaking to not sad i suppose

um you're speaking to not sad i suppose it's the way the world is

it's the way the world is

it's the way the world is the only incentive there is to just help

the only incentive there is to just help

the only incentive there is to just help other people i suppose but

other people i suppose but

other people i suppose but a much stronger incentive is is anything

a much stronger incentive is is anything

a much stronger incentive is is anything that

that

that allows you to help yourself yes so what

allows you to help yourself yes so what

allows you to help yourself yes so what i'm saying is that

i'm saying is that

i'm saying is that uh let's just say free market capitalism

uh let's just say free market capitalism

uh let's just say free market capitalism was not

was not

was not based on altruism i think it's based on

based on altruism i think it's based on

based on altruism i think it's based on if you make a system of incentives so

if you make a system of incentives so

if you make a system of incentives so that everybody trying to maximize their

that everybody trying to maximize their

that everybody trying to maximize their own situation

own situation

own situation somehow contributes to the whole that's

somehow contributes to the whole that's

somehow contributes to the whole that's a game's theoretic solution to a very

a game's theoretic solution to a very

a game's theoretic solution to a very hard problem

hard problem

hard problem and so this is actually basically

and so this is actually basically

and so this is actually basically mechanism design we've basically come up

mechanism design we've basically come up

mechanism design we've basically come up with a different mechanism

with a different mechanism

with a different mechanism different set of incentives which

different set of incentives which

different set of incentives which incentivizes the adoption because

incentivizes the adoption because

incentivizes the adoption because actually whenever we've been rolling it

actually whenever we've been rolling it

actually whenever we've been rolling it out

out

out usually the first question we ask people

usually the first question we ask people

usually the first question we ask people like say in the university is

like say in the university is

like say in the university is do you know what nova does and most of

do you know what nova does and most of

do you know what nova does and most of them have read about the other apps and

them have read about the other apps and

them have read about the other apps and they say oh no of it will tell you after

they say oh no of it will tell you after

they say oh no of it will tell you after you've been around someone so you can

you've been around someone so you can

you've been around someone so you can quarantine

quarantine

quarantine and we have to explain to them actually

and we have to explain to them actually

and we have to explain to them actually novad never wants to ask you to

novad never wants to ask you to

novad never wants to ask you to quarantine

quarantine

quarantine yeah that's not the principle our

yeah that's not the principle our

yeah that's not the principle our principle isn't based on that at all

principle isn't based on that at all

principle isn't based on that at all we just want to let you know if

we just want to let you know if

we just want to let you know if something is coming close

something is coming close

something is coming close so that you can protect yourself if you

so that you can protect yourself if you

so that you can protect yourself if you want yeah if you want if you want

want yeah if you want if you want

want yeah if you want if you want and then the the quarantine is like yes

and then the the quarantine is like yes

and then the the quarantine is like yes in that case if you're quarantining

in that case if you're quarantining

in that case if you're quarantining it's because you're shutting the door

it's because you're shutting the door

it's because you're shutting the door from the inside if that's exciting yes

from the inside if that's exciting yes

from the inside if that's exciting yes exactly exactly i mean this is brilliant

exactly exactly i mean this is brilliant

exactly exactly i mean this is brilliant but so

but so

but so what um do you think the future looks

what um do you think the future looks

what um do you think the future looks like for future pandemics what's your

like for future pandemics what's your

like for future pandemics what's your plan

plan

plan with novid what's your plan with these

with novid what's your plan with these

with novid what's your plan with these set of ideas i

set of ideas i

set of ideas i am actually still an academic and a

am actually still an academic and a

am actually still an academic and a researcher so the biggest work i'm

researcher so the biggest work i'm

researcher so the biggest work i'm working on right now

working on right now

working on right now is to try to build as many

is to try to build as many

is to try to build as many collaborations with other public health

collaborations with other public health

collaborations with other public health researchers

researchers

researchers at other universities to actually work

at other universities to actually work

at other universities to actually work on

on

on pilot deployments together in various

pilot deployments together in various

pilot deployments together in various places that's the goal

places that's the goal

places that's the goal that's actually ongoing work right now

that's actually ongoing work right now

that's actually ongoing work right now and so for example if anyone's watching

and so for example if anyone's watching

and so for example if anyone's watching this and you happen to be a public

this and you happen to be a public

this and you happen to be a public health researcher

health researcher

health researcher and you want to be involved in something

and you want to be involved in something

and you want to be involved in something like this i'm just going to say i'm

like this i'm just going to say i'm

like this i'm just going to say i'm still incentive thinking

still incentive thinking

still incentive thinking there's something in it for the

there's something in it for the

there's something in it for the researchers too this could open up an

researchers too this could open up an

researchers too this could open up an entire new way of controlling disease

entire new way of controlling disease

entire new way of controlling disease that's my hope

that's my hope

that's my hope i mean it might actually be true and

i mean it might actually be true and

i mean it might actually be true and people who are involved

people who are involved

people who are involved in figuring out how to make this work

in figuring out how to make this work

in figuring out how to make this work well it could actually be good for their

well it could actually be good for their

well it could actually be good for their careers too

careers too

careers too i i always have to think like if a

i i always have to think like if a

i i always have to think like if a researcher was getting involved what are

researcher was getting involved what are

researcher was getting involved what are they getting out of it

they getting out of it

they getting out of it oh so you mean like uh from a research

oh so you mean like uh from a research

oh so you mean like uh from a research perspective you can um

perspective you can um

perspective you can um like publications and sets of ideas

like publications and sets of ideas

like publications and sets of ideas about how to from a sort of uh

about how to from a sort of uh

about how to from a sort of uh uh network theory perspective understand

uh network theory perspective understand

uh network theory perspective understand how we control the spread of a pandemic

how we control the spread of a pandemic

how we control the spread of a pandemic yes and

yes and

yes and what i'm doing right now is this is

what i'm doing right now is this is

what i'm doing right now is this is basically interdisciplinary research

basically interdisciplinary research

basically interdisciplinary research where maybe our side is bringing the

where maybe our side is bringing the

where maybe our side is bringing the technology and the network theory

technology and the network theory

technology and the network theory and the missing parts are epidemiology

and the missing parts are epidemiology

and the missing parts are epidemiology and public health expertise

and public health expertise

and public health expertise and if the two things start to join also

and if the two things start to join also

and if the two things start to join also because everywhere that you deploy

because everywhere that you deploy

because everywhere that you deploy let's just say that the world is

let's just say that the world is

let's just say that the world is different in the philippines as it is in

different in the philippines as it is in

different in the philippines as it is in the united states

the united states

the united states and just the natures of the of the

and just the natures of the of the

and just the natures of the of the locality would mean that

locality would mean that

locality would mean that someone like me should not be trying to

someone like me should not be trying to

someone like me should not be trying to figure out how to do that but if we can

figure out how to do that but if we can

figure out how to do that but if we can work with the researchers who are based

work with the researchers who are based

work with the researchers who are based there

there

there now suddenly we might come up with a

now suddenly we might come up with a

now suddenly we might come up with a solution that will help scale in parts

solution that will help scale in parts

solution that will help scale in parts of the world where they aren't all

of the world where they aren't all

of the world where they aren't all getting the modern and fizer vaccines

getting the modern and fizer vaccines

getting the modern and fizer vaccines which cost

which cost

which cost like 20 a pop in the u.s so if they want

like 20 a pop in the u.s so if they want

like 20 a pop in the u.s so if they want to participate

to participate

to participate who do they reach out to oh that would

who do they reach out to oh that would

who do they reach out to oh that would just be us i mean the novid.org website

just be us i mean the novid.org website

just be us i mean the novid.org website has

has

has nova.org it has it has a feedback reach

nova.org it has it has a feedback reach

nova.org it has it has a feedback reach out form

out form

out form and actually we are i mean again this is

and actually we are i mean again this is

and actually we are i mean again this is the dna of being a researcher

the dna of being a researcher

the dna of being a researcher i am actually very excited by the idea

i am actually very excited by the idea

i am actually very excited by the idea that this could

that this could

that this could contribute knowledge that will outlast

contribute knowledge that will outlast

contribute knowledge that will outlast all of our generations like

all of our generations like

all of our generations like all of our lifetimes there you go reach

all of our lifetimes there you go reach

all of our lifetimes there you go reach out

out

out to novanova.org uh what about individual

to novanova.org uh what about individual

to novanova.org uh what about individual people

people

people should they install the app and try it

should they install the app and try it

should they install the app and try it out or is this really geographically

out or is this really geographically

out or is this really geographically restricted

restricted

restricted oh yeah i didn't come on here to tell

oh yeah i didn't come on here to tell

oh yeah i didn't come on here to tell everyone to install the app i did not

everyone to install the app i did not

everyone to install the app i did not come to tell everyone to install the app

come to tell everyone to install the app

come to tell everyone to install the app because it works best

because it works best

because it works best if your local health authority is

if your local health authority is

if your local health authority is working with us gotcha there's a reason

working with us gotcha there's a reason

working with us gotcha there's a reason it's because this is back to the game

it's because this is back to the game

it's because this is back to the game theory

theory

theory if anyone could just say i'm positive

if anyone could just say i'm positive

if anyone could just say i'm positive the high school senior prank would be to

the high school senior prank would be to

the high school senior prank would be to say that

say that

say that we have a massive outbreak on finals

we have a massive outbreak on finals

we have a massive outbreak on finals week let's not have final exams

week let's not have final exams

week let's not have final exams so the way that our system works it

so the way that our system works it

so the way that our system works it actually borrows some ideas no borrowers

actually borrows some ideas no borrowers

actually borrows some ideas no borrowers we came up with them independently but

we came up with them independently but

we came up with them independently but this idea is similar to what

this idea is similar to what

this idea is similar to what google and apple do which is that if the

google and apple do which is that if the

google and apple do which is that if the local health authority is working with

local health authority is working with

local health authority is working with this

this

this they can for everyone who's positive

they can for everyone who's positive

they can for everyone who's positive gives them a passcode that expires in a

gives them a passcode that expires in a

gives them a passcode that expires in a short time

short time

short time so for ours if you're on the app and

so for ours if you're on the app and

so for ours if you're on the app and saying i'm positive you can either just

saying i'm positive you can either just

saying i'm positive you can either just say that

say that

say that and that's called unverified or you can

and that's called unverified or you can

and that's called unverified or you can enter in one of these codes that you got

enter in one of these codes that you got

enter in one of these codes that you got from the local health authority

from the local health authority

from the local health authority so basically for anyone who's watching

so basically for anyone who's watching

so basically for anyone who's watching this it's not that you should just go

this it's not that you should just go

this it's not that you should just go and download it unless you want to go

and download it unless you want to go

and download it unless you want to go and look at it that's cool

and look at it that's cool

and look at it that's cool but if you on the other hand if you

but if you on the other hand if you

but if you on the other hand if you happen to know anyone at the local

happen to know anyone at the local

happen to know anyone at the local health authority which

health authority which

health authority which is trying to figure out how to handle

is trying to figure out how to handle

is trying to figure out how to handle kovid well then

kovid well then

kovid well then i mean we'd be very happy to also work

i mean we'd be very happy to also work

i mean we'd be very happy to also work with you

with you

with you guys so the the verified there is really

guys so the the verified there is really

guys so the the verified there is really important because you're

important because you're

important because you're you're maintaining anonymity and because

you're maintaining anonymity and because

you're maintaining anonymity and because of that you have to have some source of

of that you have to have some source of

of that you have to have some source of verification

verification

verification in order to make sure that it's not uh

in order to make sure that it's not uh

in order to make sure that it's not uh possible to manipulate

possible to manipulate

possible to manipulate because uh it's it's ultimately about

because uh it's it's ultimately about

because uh it's it's ultimately about trust and information and so it could be

trust and information and so it could be

trust and information and so it could be um verification is really important

um verification is really important

um verification is really important there so basically individual people

there so basically individual people

there so basically individual people should um

should um

should um ask their local health authorities to to

ask their local health authorities to to

ask their local health authorities to to just to sign up to contact you

just to sign up to contact you

just to sign up to contact you i hope this spreads i hope this spreads

i hope this spreads i hope this spreads

i hope this spreads i hope this spreads uh for future pandemics because i'm

uh for future pandemics because i'm

uh for future pandemics because i'm really

really

really i'm it's the amount the millions of

i'm it's the amount the millions of

i'm it's the amount the millions of people

people

people who are hurt by this i think our

who are hurt by this i think our

who are hurt by this i think our response to the virus

response to the virus

response to the virus economically speaking the number of

economically speaking the number of

economically speaking the number of people who lost their dream

people who lost their dream

people who lost their dream lost their jobs but also lost their

lost their jobs but also lost their

lost their jobs but also lost their dream entrepreneurs

dream entrepreneurs

dream entrepreneurs you know jobs often give meaning there's

you know jobs often give meaning there's

you know jobs often give meaning there's people who financially and

people who financially and

people who financially and psychologically are suffering because of

psychologically are suffering because of

psychologically are suffering because of our

our

our i'll say incompetent response to the

i'll say incompetent response to the

i'll say incompetent response to the virus

virus

virus across the world but certainly united

across the world but certainly united

across the world but certainly united states that should be the beacon

states that should be the beacon

states that should be the beacon of uh entrepreneurial hope for the world

of uh entrepreneurial hope for the world

of uh entrepreneurial hope for the world so

so

so i i hope that uh

i i hope that uh

i i hope that uh we'll be able to respond to these kinds

we'll be able to respond to these kinds

we'll be able to respond to these kinds of events much better in the future and

of events much better in the future and

of events much better in the future and this is exactly the right kind of idea

this is exactly the right kind of idea

this is exactly the right kind of idea and now is the time to do the investment

and now is the time to do the investment

and now is the time to do the investment let's step back to the beauty of of uh

let's step back to the beauty of of uh

let's step back to the beauty of of uh mathematics

mathematics

mathematics maybe ask the the big silly question

maybe ask the the big silly question

maybe ask the the big silly question first which is uh

first which is uh

first which is uh what do you find beautiful about

what do you find beautiful about

what do you find beautiful about mathematics

mathematics

mathematics i think that being able to look at a

i think that being able to look at a

i think that being able to look at a complicated problem which looks

complicated problem which looks

complicated problem which looks unsolvable

unsolvable

unsolvable and then to be able to change the

and then to be able to change the

and then to be able to change the perspective to come from a different

perspective to come from a different

perspective to come from a different angle

angle

angle and suddenly see that there's a nice

and suddenly see that there's a nice

and suddenly see that there's a nice solution

solution

solution i don't mean that every problem in math

i don't mean that every problem in math

i don't mean that every problem in math is supposed to be this way but i think

is supposed to be this way but i think

is supposed to be this way but i think that these

that these

that these reframings and changing of perspectives

reframings and changing of perspectives

reframings and changing of perspectives that cause difficult things to get

that cause difficult things to get

that cause difficult things to get simplified and crystallize

simplified and crystallize

simplified and crystallize and factored in certain ways is

and factored in certain ways is

and factored in certain ways is beautiful actually that's

beautiful actually that's

beautiful actually that's related to what we were just talking

related to what we were just talking

related to what we were just talking about with even this fighting pandemics

about with even this fighting pandemics

about with even this fighting pandemics the the crystal idea was just

the the crystal idea was just

the the crystal idea was just quantify proximity by the number of

quantify proximity by the number of

quantify proximity by the number of relationships in the phys

relationships in the phys

relationships in the phys in the physical network instead of just

in the physical network instead of just

in the physical network instead of just by the feet and meters

by the feet and meters

by the feet and meters right it's it's just if you change that

right it's it's just if you change that

right it's it's just if you change that perspective now all of these things

perspective now all of these things

perspective now all of these things follow

follow

follow and so mathematics to me is beautiful

and so mathematics to me is beautiful

and so mathematics to me is beautiful in the pure sense just for that yeah

in the pure sense just for that yeah

in the pure sense just for that yeah it's quite interesting to see a human

it's quite interesting to see a human

it's quite interesting to see a human civilization as a network as a graph

civilization as a network as a graph

civilization as a network as a graph and our relationships as kind of

and our relationships as kind of

and our relationships as kind of edges in that graph and to then

edges in that graph and to then

edges in that graph and to then do outside of just pandemic do

do outside of just pandemic do

do outside of just pandemic do interesting inferences

interesting inferences

interesting inferences based on that this this is true for like

based on that this this is true for like

based on that this this is true for like twitter social networks and so on

twitter social networks and so on

twitter social networks and so on how we expand the kind of things we talk

how we expand the kind of things we talk

how we expand the kind of things we talk about

about

about think about sort of politically if you

think about sort of politically if you

think about sort of politically if you have this little bubble

have this little bubble

have this little bubble quote-unquote of ideas that you play

quote-unquote of ideas that you play

quote-unquote of ideas that you play with

with

with it's uh nice from a recommender system

it's uh nice from a recommender system

it's uh nice from a recommender system perspective how do you jump out of those

perspective how do you jump out of those

perspective how do you jump out of those bubbles

bubbles

bubbles it's really fascinating uh youtube was

it's really fascinating uh youtube was

it's really fascinating uh youtube was working on that

working on that

working on that twitter's working on that but not always

twitter's working on that but not always

twitter's working on that but not always so successfully but

so successfully but

so successfully but there's a lot of interesting work from a

there's a lot of interesting work from a

there's a lot of interesting work from a mathematical

mathematical

mathematical and a psychological sociological

and a psychological sociological

and a psychological sociological perspective there in

perspective there in

perspective there in within those graphs but if we look at

within those graphs but if we look at

within those graphs but if we look at the cleanest formulation of that

the cleanest formulation of that

the cleanest formulation of that of looking at a problem from different

of looking at a problem from different

of looking at a problem from different perspective

perspective

perspective you're also involved with the

you're also involved with the

you're also involved with the international mathematics olympiad

international mathematics olympiad

international mathematics olympiad which takes a small clean

which takes a small clean

which takes a small clean uh problems that are really hard but

uh problems that are really hard but

uh problems that are really hard but once you look at them differently

once you look at them differently

once you look at them differently can become easy but that little jump of

can become easy but that little jump of

can become easy but that little jump of innovation is is uh is the entire trick

innovation is is uh is the entire trick

innovation is is uh is the entire trick so maybe at the high level can you say

so maybe at the high level can you say

so maybe at the high level can you say what is the international mathematical

what is the international mathematical

what is the international mathematical olympiad

olympiad

olympiad sure so this is uh the competition

sure so this is uh the competition

sure so this is uh the competition for people who aren't yet in college uh

for people who aren't yet in college uh

for people who aren't yet in college uh math competition which is

math competition which is

math competition which is the most prestigious one in the entire

the most prestigious one in the entire

the most prestigious one in the entire world it's the olympics of mathematics

world it's the olympics of mathematics

world it's the olympics of mathematics but only for people who aren't yet in

but only for people who aren't yet in

but only for people who aren't yet in college now the kinds of questions that

college now the kinds of questions that

college now the kinds of questions that they ask you to do

they ask you to do

they ask you to do are not computational usually you're not

are not computational usually you're not

are not computational usually you're not supposed to find that the answer is 42

supposed to find that the answer is 42

supposed to find that the answer is 42 right instead you're supposed to explain

right instead you're supposed to explain

right instead you're supposed to explain why something is true

why something is true

why something is true yes and the the problem is that at the

yes and the the problem is that at the

yes and the the problem is that at the beginning when you look at each of the

beginning when you look at each of the

beginning when you look at each of the questions

questions

questions first of all you have four and a half

first of all you have four and a half

first of all you have four and a half hours to solve three questions

hours to solve three questions

hours to solve three questions and this is one day and then you have a

and this is one day and then you have a

and this is one day and then you have a second day which is four and a half

second day which is four and a half

second day which is four and a half hours

hours

hours three questions but when you look at the

three questions but when you look at the

three questions but when you look at the questions they're all asking you explain

questions they're all asking you explain

questions they're all asking you explain why the following thing is true which

why the following thing is true which

why the following thing is true which you've never seen before

you've never seen before

you've never seen before and by the way even though there are six

and by the way even though there are six

and by the way even though there are six questions if you solve any one of them

questions if you solve any one of them

questions if you solve any one of them you're a genius and you get an honorable

you're a genius and you get an honorable

you're a genius and you get an honorable mention so this is

mention so this is

mention so this is this is hard to explain a hard problem

this is hard to explain a hard problem

this is hard to explain a hard problem what about is it one person is it a team

what about is it one person is it a team

what about is it one person is it a team ah so it's each country can send six

ah so it's each country can send six

ah so it's each country can send six people

people

people and the score of the country is actually

and the score of the country is actually

and the score of the country is actually unofficial there's not an official

unofficial there's not an official

unofficial there's not an official country

country

country versus country system although everyone

versus country system although everyone

versus country system although everyone just adds up the point scores of the six

just adds up the point scores of the six

just adds up the point scores of the six people

people

people and they say well now which country uh

and they say well now which country uh

and they say well now which country uh stacked up where

stacked up where

stacked up where yeah so maybe as a side comment i should

yeah so maybe as a side comment i should

yeah so maybe as a side comment i should say that um

say that um

say that um there's a bunch of countries including

there's a bunch of countries including

there's a bunch of countries including the former soviet union and russia

the former soviet union and russia

the former soviet union and russia uh where i grew up where this is one of

uh where i grew up where this is one of

uh where i grew up where this is one of the

the

the most important competitions that the

most important competitions that the

most important competitions that the country participates in like

country participates in like

country participates in like it was a source of pride for a lot of

it was a source of pride for a lot of

it was a source of pride for a lot of the country

the country

the country you look at the olympic sports like uh

you look at the olympic sports like uh

you look at the olympic sports like uh wrestling weightlifting there's certain

wrestling weightlifting there's certain

wrestling weightlifting there's certain sports

sports

sports and hockey that russia

and hockey that russia

and hockey that russia and the soviet union truly took pride in

and the soviet union truly took pride in

and the soviet union truly took pride in and actually the

and actually the

and actually the mathematical olympiad it was one of them

mathematical olympiad it was one of them

mathematical olympiad it was one of them for many

for many

for many years it's still one of them and that's

years it's still one of them and that's

years it's still one of them and that's kind of fascinating we don't

kind of fascinating we don't

kind of fascinating we don't think about it this way in the united

think about it this way in the united

think about it this way in the united states maybe you can correct me if i'm

states maybe you can correct me if i'm

states maybe you can correct me if i'm wrong but

wrong but

wrong but it's not nearly as popular in the united

it's not nearly as popular in the united

it's not nearly as popular in the united states in terms of its integration into

states in terms of its integration into

states in terms of its integration into the culture

the culture

the culture into uh just basic conversation into the

into uh just basic conversation into the

into uh just basic conversation into the pride

pride

pride like you know if you win an olympic gold

like you know if you win an olympic gold

like you know if you win an olympic gold medal or if you win the super bowl you

medal or if you win the super bowl you

medal or if you win the super bowl you can walk around proud

can walk around proud

can walk around proud i think that was the case with the

i think that was the case with the

i think that was the case with the mathematical olympiad in russia

mathematical olympiad in russia

mathematical olympiad in russia not not as much the case in the united

not not as much the case in the united

not not as much the case in the united states i think

states i think

states i think so i just want to give that a little

so i just want to give that a little

so i just want to give that a little aside because beating anybody

aside because beating anybody

aside because beating anybody from russia from the eastern republic or

from russia from the eastern republic or

from russia from the eastern republic or from china is very

from china is very

from china is very very difficult that like if i remember

very difficult that like if i remember

very difficult that like if i remember correctly

correctly

correctly you know there's people this was a

you know there's people this was a

you know there's people this was a multi-year

multi-year

multi-year training process they train hard

training process they train hard

training process they train hard and this is this is everything that

and this is this is everything that

and this is this is everything that they're focused on

they're focused on

they're focused on my uh my dad was was uh was a

my uh my dad was was uh was a

my uh my dad was was uh was a participant in this and

participant in this and

participant in this and it's i mean it's uh it's as serious as

it's i mean it's uh it's as serious as

it's i mean it's uh it's as serious as olympic sports you think about like

olympic sports you think about like

olympic sports you think about like gymnastics like young athletes

gymnastics like young athletes

gymnastics like young athletes participating gymnastics

participating gymnastics

participating gymnastics is this as serious as that if not more

is this as serious as that if not more

is this as serious as that if not more serious so i just want to give that a

serious so i just want to give that a

serious so i just want to give that a little bit of context because we're

little bit of context because we're

little bit of context because we're talking about serious high level math

talking about serious high level math

talking about serious high level math athletics almost here yeah and actually

athletics almost here yeah and actually

athletics almost here yeah and actually i also think that it

i also think that it

i also think that it made sense from the soviet union's

made sense from the soviet union's

made sense from the soviet union's perspective because

perspective because

perspective because if you look at what these people do

if you look at what these people do

if you look at what these people do eventually

eventually

eventually even though let's look at the ussrs or

even though let's look at the ussrs or

even though let's look at the ussrs or the

the

the international math olympiad record even

international math olympiad record even

international math olympiad record even though they i say even though they won

though they i say even though they won

though they i say even though they won a lot of awards at the high school thing

a lot of awards at the high school thing

a lot of awards at the high school thing many of them went on to do incredible

many of them went on to do incredible

many of them went on to do incredible things

things

things in research mathematics or research

in research mathematics or research

in research mathematics or research other things and

other things and

other things and that's showing the generalization

that's showing the generalization

that's showing the generalization generalizability

generalizability

generalizability of what they were working on because

of what they were working on because

of what they were working on because ultimately

ultimately

ultimately we're just playing with ideas of how to

we're just playing with ideas of how to

we're just playing with ideas of how to prove things

prove things

prove things and if you get pretty good at inventing

and if you get pretty good at inventing

and if you get pretty good at inventing creative ways to

creative ways to

creative ways to turn problems apart split them apart

turn problems apart split them apart

turn problems apart split them apart observe

observe

observe neat ways to turn messy things into

neat ways to turn messy things into

neat ways to turn messy things into simple crystals

simple crystals

simple crystals well if you're going to try to solve any

well if you're going to try to solve any

well if you're going to try to solve any real problem in the real world

real problem in the real world

real problem in the real world that could be a really handy tool too so

that could be a really handy tool too so

that could be a really handy tool too so i don't think it was a bad investment

i don't think it was a bad investment

i don't think it was a bad investment i i think it clearly worked well for

i i think it clearly worked well for

i i think it clearly worked well for soviet union

soviet union

soviet union yeah so this this is interesting people

yeah so this this is interesting people

yeah so this this is interesting people sometimes ask me you know you go up and

sometimes ask me you know you go up and

sometimes ask me you know you go up and and under communism you know was there

and under communism you know was there

and under communism you know was there anything good about communism

anything good about communism

anything good about communism and it's difficult for me to talk about

and it's difficult for me to talk about

and it's difficult for me to talk about it because it's not

it because it's not

it because it's not uh communism is one of those things

uh communism is one of those things

uh communism is one of those things that's looked down on like without

that's looked down on like without

that's looked down on like without in absolutist terms currently but you

in absolutist terms currently but you

in absolutist terms currently but you could still

could still

could still in my perspective talk about the actual

in my perspective talk about the actual

in my perspective talk about the actual forget communism or whatever the actual

forget communism or whatever the actual

forget communism or whatever the actual term is but you know certain

term is but you know certain

term is but you know certain ways that the society function that we

ways that the society function that we

ways that the society function that we can learn lessons from

can learn lessons from

can learn lessons from and one of the things in the soviet

and one of the things in the soviet

and one of the things in the soviet union that was highly prized

union that was highly prized

union that was highly prized is knowledge not even now it's

is knowledge not even now it's

is knowledge not even now it's wisdom and the skill of invention

wisdom and the skill of invention

wisdom and the skill of invention of innovation at a young age

of innovation at a young age

of innovation at a young age so we're not talking about a selection

so we're not talking about a selection

so we're not talking about a selection process where you pick the best students

process where you pick the best students

process where you pick the best students in the school to do the mathematics

in the school to do the mathematics

in the school to do the mathematics or to read literature it's like

or to read literature it's like

or to read literature it's like everybody

everybody

everybody did it everybody it was almost treated

did it everybody it was almost treated

did it everybody it was almost treated as if

as if

as if anyone could be the next einstein

anyone could be the next einstein

anyone could be the next einstein anybody could be the next

anybody could be the next

anybody could be the next i don't know hemingway james joyce and

i don't know hemingway james joyce and

i don't know hemingway james joyce and so you're

so you're

so you're forcing an education on the populace

forcing an education on the populace

forcing an education on the populace and a rigorous deep education like

and a rigorous deep education like

and a rigorous deep education like as opposed to kind of like oh we want to

as opposed to kind of like oh we want to

as opposed to kind of like oh we want to make sure we

make sure we

make sure we um we teach to the weaker student in the

um we teach to the weaker student in the

um we teach to the weaker student in the class

class

class which american systems can sometimes do

which american systems can sometimes do

which american systems can sometimes do because we don't want to leave anyone

because we don't want to leave anyone

because we don't want to leave anyone behind

behind

behind the the russian system was

the the russian system was

the the russian system was anyone can be the strongest student and

anyone can be the strongest student and

anyone can be the strongest student and we're going to teach you the strongest

we're going to teach you the strongest

we're going to teach you the strongest student

student

student and we're going to just to pretend or

and we're going to just to pretend or

and we're going to just to pretend or force

force

force everybody even the weakest student to be

everybody even the weakest student to be

everybody even the weakest student to be strong and what that results in

strong and what that results in

strong and what that results in it's obviously this is what people talk

it's obviously this is what people talk

it's obviously this is what people talk about is a huge amount of pressure

about is a huge amount of pressure

about is a huge amount of pressure like it's psychologically very difficult

like it's psychologically very difficult

like it's psychologically very difficult this is why people struggle when they go

this is why people struggle when they go

this is why people struggle when they go to mit this very competitive environment

to mit this very competitive environment

to mit this very competitive environment it can be very psychologically difficult

it can be very psychologically difficult

it can be very psychologically difficult but at the same time it's bringing out

but at the same time it's bringing out

but at the same time it's bringing out the best out of people

the best out of people

the best out of people and that mathematics was certainly one

and that mathematics was certainly one

and that mathematics was certainly one of those things

of those things

of those things and exactly what you're saying which

and exactly what you're saying which

and exactly what you're saying which kind of clicked with me just now as

kind of clicked with me just now as

kind of clicked with me just now as opposed to kind of a spelling bee

opposed to kind of a spelling bee

opposed to kind of a spelling bee in the united states which i guess you

in the united states which i guess you

in the united states which i guess you spell

spell

spell i'm horrible at this but it's a

i'm horrible at this but it's a

i'm horrible at this but it's a competition about spelling which

competition about spelling which

competition about spelling which i'm not sure but you could argue doesn't

i'm not sure but you could argue doesn't

i'm not sure but you could argue doesn't generalize well to future skills

generalize well to future skills

generalize well to future skills mathematics especially this kind of

mathematics especially this kind of

mathematics especially this kind of mathematics

mathematics

mathematics is essentially formalized competition of

is essentially formalized competition of

is essentially formalized competition of invention

invention

invention of uh of creating

of uh of creating

of uh of creating new ideas and that generalizes really

new ideas and that generalizes really

new ideas and that generalizes really really well so

really well so

really well so that's that's quite brilliantly put i

that's that's quite brilliantly put i

that's that's quite brilliantly put i didn't really think about that so this

didn't really think about that so this

didn't really think about that so this is not just about the competition this

is not just about the competition this

is not just about the competition this is about

is about

is about developing minds that uh

developing minds that uh

developing minds that uh will come come to do some incredible

will come come to do some incredible

will come come to do some incredible stuff in the future

stuff in the future

stuff in the future yeah actually i want to respond to a

yeah actually i want to respond to a

yeah actually i want to respond to a couple of things there the first one

couple of things there the first one

couple of things there the first one this one

this one

this one um which is this notion of whether or

um which is this notion of whether or

um which is this notion of whether or not that is possible in a

not that is possible in a

not that is possible in a non-authoritarian regime

non-authoritarian regime

non-authoritarian regime i think it is and that's actually why i

i think it is and that's actually why i

i think it is and that's actually why i spent some of my efforts

spent some of my efforts

spent some of my efforts before the covet thing actually trying

before the covet thing actually trying

before the covet thing actually trying to work towards there the reason is

to work towards there the reason is

to work towards there the reason is because

because

because if you think about it let's say in

if you think about it let's say in

if you think about it let's say in america lots of people are pretty

america lots of people are pretty

america lots of people are pretty serious about training very hard for

serious about training very hard for

serious about training very hard for football

football

football or baseball or basketball basketball

or baseball or basketball basketball

or baseball or basketball basketball it's very very accessible but lots of

it's very very accessible but lots of

it's very very accessible but lots of people are doing that

people are doing that

people are doing that why well actually i think that what this

why well actually i think that what this

why well actually i think that what this what

what

what what was going on with the authoritarian

what was going on with the authoritarian

what was going on with the authoritarian thing was at least

thing was at least

thing was at least the message that was universally sent

the message that was universally sent

the message that was universally sent was

was

was being a good thinker and a creator of

being a good thinker and a creator of

being a good thinker and a creator of ideas

ideas

ideas is a good thing yes exactly

is a good thing yes exactly

is a good thing yes exactly there's no reason why that message can't

there's no reason why that message can't

there's no reason why that message can't be sent that's right everywhere

be sent that's right everywhere

be sent that's right everywhere and i think it actually should be so

and i think it actually should be so

and i think it actually should be so that's the first thing the second thing

that's the first thing the second thing

that's the first thing the second thing is what you commented about

is what you commented about

is what you commented about this thing about um you know the

this thing about um you know the

this thing about um you know the generalizable skill and what what could

generalizable skill and what what could

generalizable skill and what what could people do with olympiads afterwards so

people do with olympiads afterwards so

people do with olympiads afterwards so that's actually my interest in the whole

that's actually my interest in the whole

that's actually my interest in the whole thing

thing

thing uh i don't i mean i don't

uh i don't i mean i don't

uh i don't i mean i don't just coach students how to do problems

just coach students how to do problems

just coach students how to do problems in fact i'm not even the best person for

in fact i'm not even the best person for

in fact i'm not even the best person for that i'm not the best at solving these

that i'm not the best at solving these

that i'm not the best at solving these problems

problems

problems there are other people who are much

there are other people who are much

there are other people who are much better at making problems and teaching

better at making problems and teaching

better at making problems and teaching people how to solve problems

people how to solve problems

people how to solve problems in fact when i was when the mathematical

in fact when i was when the mathematical

in fact when i was when the mathematical association of america which is the

association of america which is the

association of america which is the group which is in charge of

group which is in charge of

group which is in charge of the u.s participation in these olympiads

the u.s participation in these olympiads

the u.s participation in these olympiads when they were deciding whether or not

when they were deciding whether or not

when they were deciding whether or not to put me in

to put me in

to put me in back in 2013 as the head coach i had a

back in 2013 as the head coach i had a

back in 2013 as the head coach i had a conversation with their executive

conversation with their executive

conversation with their executive director

director

director where i commented that we might do worse

where i commented that we might do worse

where i commented that we might do worse because my position was i don't i mean i

because my position was i don't i mean i

because my position was i don't i mean i actually didn't

actually didn't

actually didn't want to focus on winning i said if

want to focus on winning i said if

want to focus on winning i said if you're going to let me work with

you're going to let me work with

you're going to let me work with 60 very strong minds as picked through

60 very strong minds as picked through

60 very strong minds as picked through this

this

this system because the coach works with

system because the coach works with

system because the coach works with these gets to run a camp for these

these gets to run a camp for these

these gets to run a camp for these students

students

students i said i'm actually not going to define

i said i'm actually not going to define

i said i'm actually not going to define my success in terms of winning

my success in terms of winning

my success in terms of winning this contest i said i wanted to maximize

this contest i said i wanted to maximize

this contest i said i wanted to maximize the number of the students

the number of the students

the number of the students that i read about in the new york times

that i read about in the new york times

that i read about in the new york times in 20 years

in 20 years

in 20 years oh yeah and the executive director of

oh yeah and the executive director of

oh yeah and the executive director of the mathematical association of america

the mathematical association of america

the mathematical association of america was fully in support of this because

was fully in support of this because

was fully in support of this because that's also how their philosophy is

that's also how their philosophy is

that's also how their philosophy is so in america the way we run this is

so in america the way we run this is

so in america the way we run this is we're actually not

we're actually not

we're actually not just training to win even though the

just training to win even though the

just training to win even though the students are very good and they can win

students are very good and they can win

students are very good and they can win anyway

anyway

anyway one reason for example i went and even

one reason for example i went and even

one reason for example i went and even did the covid thing involving quite a

did the covid thing involving quite a

did the covid thing involving quite a few of them

few of them

few of them is so that hopefully some of them get

is so that hopefully some of them get

is so that hopefully some of them get ideas because in 20 30 years i won't

ideas because in 20 30 years i won't

ideas because in 20 30 years i won't have the energy or the insight to solve

have the energy or the insight to solve

have the energy or the insight to solve problems

problems

problems we'll have another catastrophe and

we'll have another catastrophe and

we'll have another catastrophe and hopefully some of these people will step

hopefully some of these people will step

hopefully some of these people will step up and do it

up and do it

up and do it and ultimately have that long-term

and ultimately have that long-term

and ultimately have that long-term impact i wonder if this is scalable to

impact i wonder if this is scalable to

impact i wonder if this is scalable to because that's such a great metric for

because that's such a great metric for

because that's such a great metric for education

education

education not how to get an a

not how to get an a

not how to get an a on the test uh

on the test uh

on the test uh but how to have how to be on the cover

but how to have how to be on the cover

but how to have how to be on the cover of new york times

of new york times

of new york times for inventing something new and i

for inventing something new and i

for inventing something new and i do you think that's generalizable to

do you think that's generalizable to

do you think that's generalizable to education beyond just this particular

education beyond just this particular

education beyond just this particular olympia like

olympia like

olympia like it's even you're saying this feels like

it's even you're saying this feels like

it's even you're saying this feels like a rare statement

a rare statement

a rare statement almost like a radical statement as a

almost like a radical statement as a

almost like a radical statement as a goal for education

goal for education

goal for education so actually the way i teach my classes

so actually the way i teach my classes

so actually the way i teach my classes at carnegie mellon which i will admit

at carnegie mellon which i will admit

at carnegie mellon which i will admit right away is not

right away is not

right away is not equivalent to the average in the world

equivalent to the average in the world

equivalent to the average in the world but it's already not

but it's already not

but it's already not it's already not just the top 60 in the

it's already not just the top 60 in the

it's already not just the top 60 in the country as picked by something

country as picked by something

country as picked by something um let me just explain i have exams in

um let me just explain i have exams in

um let me just explain i have exams in my class which are 90

my class which are 90

my class which are 90 of the grade so the exams are the whole

of the grade so the exams are the whole

of the grade so the exams are the whole thing or most of the whole thing and

thing or most of the whole thing and

thing or most of the whole thing and the way that i let students prepare for

the way that i let students prepare for

the way that i let students prepare for the exams is i show them

the exams is i show them

the exams is i show them all the problems i've ever given on the

all the problems i've ever given on the

all the problems i've ever given on the previous exams and the whole the exam

previous exams and the whole the exam

previous exams and the whole the exam that they will take is open notes they

that they will take is open notes they

that they will take is open notes they can take all the notes they want on the

can take all the notes they want on the

can take all the notes they want on the previous problems

previous problems

previous problems and the guarantee is that the exam

and the guarantee is that the exam

and the guarantee is that the exam problems this time will have no overlap

problems this time will have no overlap

problems this time will have no overlap with anything you've seen me give in the

with anything you've seen me give in the

with anything you've seen me give in the past

past

past as well as no overlap with anything i

as well as no overlap with anything i

as well as no overlap with anything i taught in the class

taught in the class

taught in the class so the entire exam is invention

so the entire exam is invention

so the entire exam is invention wow but that's how i go right my point

wow but that's how i go right my point

wow but that's how i go right my point is

is

is i have explained to people when i teach

i have explained to people when i teach

i have explained to people when i teach you i don't want you to have remembered

you i don't want you to have remembered

you i don't want you to have remembered a method i showed you

a method i showed you

a method i showed you i want you to have learned enough about

i want you to have learned enough about

i want you to have learned enough about this area that if you face a new

this area that if you face a new

this area that if you face a new question which i came up with the night

question which i came up with the night

question which i came up with the night before

before

before by thinking about like what could i ask

by thinking about like what could i ask

by thinking about like what could i ask that i have never asked before

that i have never asked before

that i have never asked before oh that's cute i wonder what the answer

oh that's cute i wonder what the answer

oh that's cute i wonder what the answer is ah that's an exam problem that's

is ah that's an exam problem that's

is ah that's an exam problem that's exactly what i do before the exam

exactly what i do before the exam

exactly what i do before the exam and then that's what i want them to

and then that's what i want them to

and then that's what i want them to learn yeah and the first exam usually

learn yeah and the first exam usually

learn yeah and the first exam usually people have a rough time because it's

people have a rough time because it's

people have a rough time because it's like what what kind of crazy class is

like what what kind of crazy class is

like what what kind of crazy class is this the professor doesn't

this the professor doesn't

this the professor doesn't teach you anything for the exam but then

teach you anything for the exam but then

teach you anything for the exam but then by the second or third and by the time

by the second or third and by the time

by the second or third and by the time they finish the class

they finish the class

they finish the class they have learned how to solve anything

they have learned how to solve anything

they have learned how to solve anything in the area how to invent how they

in the area how to invent how they

in the area how to invent how they intend in that area yeah

intend in that area yeah

intend in that area yeah can we uh walk back to the the

can we uh walk back to the the

can we uh walk back to the the mathematical olympia yes what's the

mathematical olympia yes what's the

mathematical olympia yes what's the scoring and format like

scoring and format like

scoring and format like and also what does it take to win so the

and also what does it take to win so the

and also what does it take to win so the way it works is that

way it works is that

way it works is that each of the six students

each of the six students

each of the six students do the problems and there are six

do the problems and there are six

do the problems and there are six problems all the problems are equally

problems all the problems are equally

problems all the problems are equally weighted so each one's worth seven

weighted so each one's worth seven

weighted so each one's worth seven points that means that

points that means that

points that means that your maximum score is six problems times

your maximum score is six problems times

your maximum score is six problems times seven points which is

seven points which is

seven points which is the nice number of 42. and now

the nice number of 42. and now

the nice number of 42. and now the way that they're scored by the way

the way that they're scored by the way

the way that they're scored by the way is there's partial credit so the

is there's partial credit so the

is there's partial credit so the question is asking you

question is asking you

question is asking you explain why this weird fact is true

explain why this weird fact is true

explain why this weird fact is true okay if you explain by you get seven

okay if you explain by you get seven

okay if you explain by you get seven points if you make minor mistake maybe

points if you make minor mistake maybe

points if you make minor mistake maybe you get six points

you get six points

you get six points but if you don't succeed in explaining

but if you don't succeed in explaining

but if you don't succeed in explaining why but you explain

why but you explain

why but you explain some other true fact

some other true fact

some other true fact which is along the way of proving it

which is along the way of proving it

which is along the way of proving it then you get partial credit and and

then you get partial credit and and

then you get partial credit and and actually now this is tricky because

actually now this is tricky because

actually now this is tricky because how do you score such a thing it's not

how do you score such a thing it's not

how do you score such a thing it's not like it was the answer was

like it was the answer was

like it was the answer was 72 and you wrote 71 and it's close right

72 and you wrote 71 and it's close right

72 and you wrote 71 and it's close right the answer is 72

the answer is 72

the answer is 72 and you wrote 36 oh but that's pretty

and you wrote 36 oh but that's pretty

and you wrote 36 oh but that's pretty close because you were you know you

close because you were you know you

close because you were you know you that maybe you're just off by it by the

that maybe you're just off by it by the

that maybe you're just off by it by the way they're not numerical anyway but i'm

way they're not numerical anyway but i'm

way they're not numerical anyway but i'm just giving some

just giving some

just giving some numerical analog to the way the scoring

numerical analog to the way the scoring

numerical analog to the way the scoring might work

might work

might work they're all essays and that's where i

they're all essays and that's where i

they're all essays and that's where i guess i have

guess i have

guess i have some role as well as some other people

some role as well as some other people

some role as well as some other people who helped me in the u.s delegation for

who helped me in the u.s delegation for

who helped me in the u.s delegation for coaches

coaches

coaches we actually debate with the

we actually debate with the

we actually debate with the country which is organizing it the

country which is organizing it the

country which is organizing it the country which is organizing the olympiad

country which is organizing the olympiad

country which is organizing the olympiad brings about

brings about

brings about 50 people to help judge the written

50 people to help judge the written

50 people to help judge the written solutions

solutions

solutions and you you schedule these half hour

and you you schedule these half hour

and you you schedule these half hour appointments

appointments

appointments where the delegation from one country

where the delegation from one country

where the delegation from one country sits down at the table like this

sits down at the table like this

sits down at the table like this opposite side is two or three people

opposite side is two or three people

opposite side is two or three people from the host country

from the host country

from the host country and they're just looking over these exam

and they're just looking over these exam

and they're just looking over these exam papers saying

papers saying

papers saying well how many points is this worth based

well how many points is this worth based

well how many points is this worth based on some rubric that has been designed

on some rubric that has been designed

on some rubric that has been designed and this is a negotiation process where

and this is a negotiation process where

and this is a negotiation process where we're not

we're not

we're not we're not trying to bargain and get the

we're not trying to bargain and get the

we're not trying to bargain and get the best score we can in fact sometimes we

best score we can in fact sometimes we

best score we can in fact sometimes we go to this table and we will say

go to this table and we will say

go to this table and we will say we think we want less than what you gave

we think we want less than what you gave

we think we want less than what you gave us this is how this is how our

us this is how this is how our

us this is how this is how our these are our principles if you give us

these are our principles if you give us

these are our principles if you give us too much we say no you gave us too much

too much we say no you gave us too much

too much we say no you gave us too much we do that however the reason why this

we do that however the reason why this

we do that however the reason why this is an interesting process

is an interesting process

is an interesting process is because if you can imagine every

is because if you can imagine every

is because if you can imagine every country which is participating has its

country which is participating has its

country which is participating has its own language

own language

own language and so if you're trying to grade the

and so if you're trying to grade the

and so if you're trying to grade the mongolian scripts and they're written in

mongolian scripts and they're written in

mongolian scripts and they're written in mongolia

mongolia

mongolia if you don't read mongolian which most

if you don't read mongolian which most

if you don't read mongolian which most people don't then the

people don't then the

people don't then the the coaches are explaining to you this

the coaches are explaining to you this

the coaches are explaining to you this is what the student has written

is what the student has written

is what the student has written it's actually quite interesting process

it's actually quite interesting process

it's actually quite interesting process it's almost like um

it's almost like um

it's almost like um like a jury yeah you have you have uh

like a jury yeah you have you have uh

like a jury yeah you have you have uh in the american legal system you have a

in the american legal system you have a

in the american legal system you have a jury that where they're deliberating

jury that where they're deliberating

jury that where they're deliberating but unlike a jury there's the members of

but unlike a jury there's the members of

but unlike a jury there's the members of the jury

the jury

the jury speak in different languages sometimes

speak in different languages sometimes

speak in different languages sometimes that's fascinating

that's fascinating

that's fascinating but uh i mean it's hard to know what to

but uh i mean it's hard to know what to

but uh i mean it's hard to know what to do

do

do because it's probably really really

because it's probably really really

because it's probably really really competitive

competitive

competitive but your sense is that ultimately people

but your sense is that ultimately people

but your sense is that ultimately people like how do you prevent manipulation

like how do you prevent manipulation

like how do you prevent manipulation here

here

here right well we just hope that it's not

right well we just hope that it's not

right well we just hope that it's not happening

happening

happening so so we write in english therefore

so so we write in english therefore

so so we write in english therefore everything that the u.s does

everything that the u.s does

everything that the u.s does everyone can look at so it's a it's very

everyone can look at so it's a it's very

everyone can look at so it's a it's very hard for me it's very hard for you to

hard for me it's very hard for you to

hard for me it's very hard for you to manipulate

manipulate

manipulate we don't manipulate we only hope that

we don't manipulate we only hope that

we don't manipulate we only hope that other people aren't

other people aren't

other people aren't but at the same time as you see our

but at the same time as you see our

but at the same time as you see our philosophy was we want to use this as a

philosophy was we want to use this as a

philosophy was we want to use this as a way to develop general talent

way to develop general talent

way to develop general talent and although we do this for the six

and although we do this for the six

and although we do this for the six people who go to the international math

people who go to the international math

people who go to the international math olympiad

olympiad

olympiad we really want that everyone at any

we really want that everyone at any

we really want that everyone at any touch at any stage of this process

touch at any stage of this process

touch at any stage of this process get some skills that can help to

get some skills that can help to

get some skills that can help to contribute more later so

contribute more later so

contribute more later so i don't know if you can uh say something

i don't know if you can uh say something

i don't know if you can uh say something insightful to this

insightful to this

insightful to this question but what do you think makes a

question but what do you think makes a

question but what do you think makes a really hard math problem

really hard math problem

really hard math problem on on this olympiad maybe in the courses

on on this olympiad maybe in the courses

on on this olympiad maybe in the courses you teach

you teach

you teach or in general what makes for a hard

or in general what makes for a hard

or in general what makes for a hard problem you've seen i'm sure a lot of

problem you've seen i'm sure a lot of

problem you've seen i'm sure a lot of really difficult problems

really difficult problems

really difficult problems what makes a heart problem so i could

what makes a heart problem so i could

what makes a heart problem so i could quantify it by the number of leaps of

quantify it by the number of leaps of

quantify it by the number of leaps of insight

insight

insight of changes of perspective that are along

of changes of perspective that are along

of changes of perspective that are along the way and here's why

the way and here's why

the way and here's why it's this is like a very theoretical

it's this is like a very theoretical

it's this is like a very theoretical computer science way of looking at it

computer science way of looking at it

computer science way of looking at it okay it's the is that each reframing of

okay it's the is that each reframing of

okay it's the is that each reframing of the problem and using of some tool i

the problem and using of some tool i

the problem and using of some tool i actually call that a leap of insight

actually call that a leap of insight

actually call that a leap of insight when you say oh wow

when you say oh wow

when you say oh wow now i see i should kind of put these

now i see i should kind of put these

now i see i should kind of put these plugs into those sockets

plugs into those sockets

plugs into those sockets like so yes and suddenly i get to use

like so yes and suddenly i get to use

like so yes and suddenly i get to use that machine oh but i'm not done yet

that machine oh but i'm not done yet

that machine oh but i'm not done yet now i need to do it again each such step

now i need to do it again each such step

now i need to do it again each such step is a large

is a large

is a large possible large fan out in the search

possible large fan out in the search

possible large fan out in the search space the number of these

space the number of these

space the number of these tells you the exponent the base of the

tells you the exponent the base of the

tells you the exponent the base of the exponent is like how big

exponent is like how big

exponent is like how big how many different possibilities you

how many different possibilities you

how many different possibilities you could try and that's

could try and that's

could try and that's that's actually why like if you have a

that's actually why like if you have a

that's actually why like if you have a three inside problem

three inside problem

three inside problem that is not three times as hard as a one

that is not three times as hard as a one

that is not three times as hard as a one inside problem

inside problem

inside problem because after you've made the one inside

because after you've made the one inside

because after you've made the one inside it's not clear that that was the right

it's not clear that that was the right

it's not clear that that was the right track necessarily well unless there's

track necessarily well unless there's

track necessarily well unless there's still a branching

still a branching

still a branching uh of possible yeah

uh of possible yeah

uh of possible yeah [Laughter]

[Laughter]

[Laughter] you're saying there's problems like on

you're saying there's problems like on

you're saying there's problems like on the math olympia that requires more than

the math olympia that requires more than

the math olympia that requires more than one insight yes

one insight yes

one insight yes those are the hard ones and also i can

those are the hard ones and also i can

those are the hard ones and also i can tell you how how you can tell

tell you how how you can tell

tell you how how you can tell so this is how i also taught myself math

so this is how i also taught myself math

so this is how i also taught myself math when i was in college

when i was in college

when i was in college so in if you are taking uh not taught

so in if you are taking uh not taught

so in if you are taking uh not taught myself i was taking classes of course

myself i was taking classes of course

myself i was taking classes of course but i was trying to read the textbook

but i was trying to read the textbook

but i was trying to read the textbook and i found out i was very bad at

and i found out i was very bad at

and i found out i was very bad at reading math textbooks

reading math textbooks

reading math textbooks a math textbook has a long page of stuff

a math textbook has a long page of stuff

a math textbook has a long page of stuff that is all true

that is all true

that is all true which after you read the page you have

which after you read the page you have

which after you read the page you have no idea what you just read

no idea what you just read

no idea what you just read yeah this is just a good summary of a

yeah this is just a good summary of a

yeah this is just a good summary of a math textbook

math textbook

math textbook okay yeah because it's it's not clear

okay yeah because it's it's not clear

okay yeah because it's it's not clear why anything was done that way and yes

why anything was done that way and yes

why anything was done that way and yes everything is true but how the heck did

everything is true but how the heck did

everything is true but how the heck did anyone think of that

anyone think of that

anyone think of that so the way that i taught myself math

so the way that i taught myself math

so the way that i taught myself math eventually

eventually

eventually was the way i read a math textbook is i

was the way i read a math textbook is i

was the way i read a math textbook is i would

would

would look at the theorem statement i would

look at the theorem statement i would

look at the theorem statement i would look at the length

look at the length

look at the length of the proof and then i would close the

of the proof and then i would close the

of the proof and then i would close the book and attempt to reprove it myself

book and attempt to reprove it myself

book and attempt to reprove it myself yeah now that's brilliant the length of

yeah now that's brilliant the length of

yeah now that's brilliant the length of the proof

the proof

the proof is telling you the number of insights

is telling you the number of insights

is telling you the number of insights because the length of the proof

because the length of the proof

because the length of the proof is linear in the number of insights that

is linear in the number of insights that

is linear in the number of insights that each insight takes space

each insight takes space

each insight takes space yeah and if i know that it's a short

yeah and if i know that it's a short

yeah and if i know that it's a short proof i know that there's only one

proof i know that there's only one

proof i know that there's only one insight

insight

insight so when i'm doing my own way of solving

so when i'm doing my own way of solving

so when i'm doing my own way of solving the problem like so i mean finding the

the problem like so i mean finding the

the problem like so i mean finding the proof

proof

proof i quit if i'm if i have to do too many

i quit if i'm if i have to do too many

i quit if i'm if i have to do too many pluggings it's equivalent to a math

pluggings it's equivalent to a math

pluggings it's equivalent to a math contest

contest

contest in a math context i look is it problem

in a math context i look is it problem

in a math context i look is it problem one two or three that tells me how many

one two or three that tells me how many

one two or three that tells me how many insights there are

insights there are

insights there are this is exactly what i did that's

this is exactly what i did that's

this is exactly what i did that's brilliant linear in the number i don't

brilliant linear in the number i don't

brilliant linear in the number i don't know

know

know i i think um well it's possible that

i i think um well it's possible that

i i think um well it's possible that that's true

that's true

that's true approximately approximately

approximately approximately

approximately approximately approximately yeah just i don't know uh

approximately yeah just i don't know uh

approximately yeah just i don't know uh somebody out there is going to try to

somebody out there is going to try to

somebody out there is going to try to formally prove this oh no i mean you're

formally prove this oh no i mean you're

formally prove this oh no i mean you're right

right

right there are cases where maybe it's not

there are cases where maybe it's not

there are cases where maybe it's not quite linear but in general well some of

quite linear but in general well some of

quite linear but in general well some of it's notation too and some of it is uh

it's notation too and some of it is uh

it's notation too and some of it is uh style and all those kinds of things but

style and all those kinds of things but

style and all those kinds of things but within a textbook within the same book

within a textbook within the same book

within a textbook within the same book within

within

within the same book yes within the same book

the same book yes within the same book

the same book yes within the same book on the same subject

on the same subject

on the same subject yeah that's what i was using that's

yeah that's what i was using that's

yeah that's what i was using that's hilarious because you know if it's a

hilarious because you know if it's a

hilarious because you know if it's a two-page proof you just know this is

two-page proof you just know this is

two-page proof you just know this is going to be insane

going to be insane

going to be insane right that's the uh that's the scary

right that's the uh that's the scary

right that's the uh that's the scary thing about insights

thing about insights

thing about insights uh you look like andrew wiles working on

uh you look like andrew wiles working on

uh you look like andrew wiles working on the firm oz last theorem

the firm oz last theorem

the firm oz last theorem is you don't know something seems like a

is you don't know something seems like a

is you don't know something seems like a good idea

good idea

good idea and you have that idea and it feels like

and you have that idea and it feels like

and you have that idea and it feels like this is a leap

this is a leap

this is a leap like a totally new way to see it but you

like a totally new way to see it but you

like a totally new way to see it but you have no idea if it's

have no idea if it's

have no idea if it's at all useful uh even if you think it's

at all useful uh even if you think it's

at all useful uh even if you think it's correct you have no idea if this is like

correct you have no idea if this is like

correct you have no idea if this is like going to go down a path that's

going to go down a path that's

going to go down a path that's completely counterproductive

completely counterproductive

completely counterproductive or not productive at all that's

or not productive at all that's

or not productive at all that's that's a crappy thing about invention is

that's a crappy thing about invention is

that's a crappy thing about invention is um

um

um like i have i'm sure you do i have a lot

like i have i'm sure you do i have a lot

like i have i'm sure you do i have a lot of really good ideas every single day

of really good ideas every single day

of really good ideas every single day but like and then i'll i'll go inside my

but like and then i'll i'll go inside my

but like and then i'll i'll go inside my head along them

head along them

head along them along that little trajectory but it

along that little trajectory but it

along that little trajectory but it could be just a total waste

could be just a total waste

could be just a total waste and it's that i that you know what that

and it's that i that you know what that

and it's that i that you know what that feels like it just feels like

feels like it just feels like

feels like it just feels like patience is required not to get excited

patience is required not to get excited

patience is required not to get excited any one thing

any one thing

any one thing so i think this is interesting because

so i think this is interesting because

so i think this is interesting because you raised andrew biles he spent

you raised andrew biles he spent

you raised andrew biles he spent seven years attacking the same thing

seven years attacking the same thing

seven years attacking the same thing yeah right

yeah right

yeah right and and so i think that what attracts

and and so i think that what attracts

and and so i think that what attracts professional researchers to this

professional researchers to this

professional researchers to this is because even though it's very painful

is because even though it's very painful

is because even though it's very painful that you keep fighting with something

that you keep fighting with something

that you keep fighting with something when you finally find the right insights

when you finally find the right insights

when you finally find the right insights and string them together

and string them together

and string them together it feels really good so well there's

it feels really good so well there's

it feels really good so well there's also like

also like

also like short term it feels good to

short term it feels good to

short term it feels good to to uh whether it's real or not

to uh whether it's real or not

to uh whether it's real or not to pretend like you've solved something

to pretend like you've solved something

to pretend like you've solved something in the sense like you have an insight

in the sense like you have an insight

in the sense like you have an insight and there's a sense like this might be

and there's a sense like this might be

and there's a sense like this might be the insight that solves it

the insight that solves it

the insight that solves it so at least for me i just enjoy

so at least for me i just enjoy

so at least for me i just enjoy that rush of positivity even though i

that rush of positivity even though i

that rush of positivity even though i know statistically speaking is probably

know statistically speaking is probably

know statistically speaking is probably going to be a dead end

going to be a dead end

going to be a dead end i'm the same way i'm the same way in

i'm the same way i'm the same way in

i'm the same way i'm the same way in fact that's how i know whether

fact that's how i know whether

fact that's how i know whether i might want to keep thinking about this

i might want to keep thinking about this

i might want to keep thinking about this general problem it's like if i still see

general problem it's like if i still see

general problem it's like if i still see that i'm getting

that i'm getting

that i'm getting some insights i'm not at a dead end yet

some insights i'm not at a dead end yet

some insights i'm not at a dead end yet but that's also where i learned

but that's also where i learned

but that's also where i learned something from my phd advisor actually

something from my phd advisor actually

something from my phd advisor actually he was a

he was a

he was a real big inspiration on my life his name

real big inspiration on my life his name

real big inspiration on my life his name is benny sudokov in fact he grew up in

is benny sudokov in fact he grew up in

is benny sudokov in fact he grew up in the former soviet union

the former soviet union

the former soviet union he was from georgia but he he's an

he was from georgia but he he's an

he was from georgia but he he's an incredible person

incredible person

incredible person but one thing i learned was choose the

but one thing i learned was choose the

but one thing i learned was choose the problems to work on

problems to work on

problems to work on that might matter if you sub if you

that might matter if you sub if you

that might matter if you sub if you succeed

succeed

succeed because that's why for example we dug

because that's why for example we dug

because that's why for example we dug into cope it was just well

into cope it was just well

into cope it was just well suppose we succeed in finding some

suppose we succeed in finding some

suppose we succeed in finding some interesting insight here

interesting insight here

interesting insight here well it actually matters then it's

well it actually matters then it's

well it actually matters then it's worthwhile

worthwhile

worthwhile yeah and i think covid the the way

yeah and i think covid the the way

yeah and i think covid the the way you're approaching

you're approaching

you're approaching uh kovid has two interesting

uh kovid has two interesting

uh kovid has two interesting possibilities

possibilities

possibilities one it might help with the covet or

one it might help with the covet or

one it might help with the covet or another pandemic

another pandemic

another pandemic but two i mean just this whole

but two i mean just this whole

but two i mean just this whole network theory space you might unlock

network theory space you might unlock

network theory space you might unlock some deep understanding about the

some deep understanding about the

some deep understanding about the interaction with human beings that might

interaction with human beings that might

interaction with human beings that might have

have

have nothing to do with the pandemic there's

nothing to do with the pandemic there's

nothing to do with the pandemic there's a there's a space of possible impacts

a there's a space of possible impacts

a there's a space of possible impacts that may be direct or

that may be direct or

that may be direct or indirect and the same thing is like with

indirect and the same thing is like with

indirect and the same thing is like with andrew wiles's proof

andrew wiles's proof

andrew wiles's proof i don't understand but apparently

i don't understand but apparently

i don't understand but apparently the pieces of it are really impactful

the pieces of it are really impactful

the pieces of it are really impactful for

for

for for mathematics even if the main theorem

for mathematics even if the main theorem

for mathematics even if the main theorem is not

is not

is not so along the way the the insights you

so along the way the the insights you

so along the way the the insights you have

have

have might be really powerful for

might be really powerful for

might be really powerful for unexpected reasons so i like what you

unexpected reasons so i like what you

unexpected reasons so i like what you said this is something that i learned

said this is something that i learned

said this is something that i learned from another

from another

from another friend of mine who's also he's a very

friend of mine who's also he's a very

friend of mine who's also he's a very famous researcher all these people are

famous researcher all these people are

famous researcher all these people are more famous than i am

more famous than i am

more famous than i am his name is jacob fox he's jacob fox at

his name is jacob fox he's jacob fox at

his name is jacob fox he's jacob fox at stanford also a very big inspiration for

stanford also a very big inspiration for

stanford also a very big inspiration for me we were both grad students together

me we were both grad students together

me we were both grad students together at the same time well most importantly

at the same time well most importantly

at the same time well most importantly you're good at selecting good friends

you're good at selecting good friends

you're good at selecting good friends ah yeah well that's that's that's that's

ah yeah well that's that's that's that's

ah yeah well that's that's that's that's the key you've got to find good people

the key you've got to find good people

the key you've got to find good people to learn things from yeah

to learn things from yeah

to learn things from yeah but his thing was he often said you know

but his thing was he often said you know

but his thing was he often said you know if you solve a math problem and have

if you solve a math problem and have

if you solve a math problem and have this math proof

this math proof

this math proof math problem for him is like a proof

math problem for him is like a proof

math problem for him is like a proof right so suppose you came up with this

right so suppose you came up with this

right so suppose you came up with this proof

proof

proof he always asks what have we learned from

he always asks what have we learned from

he always asks what have we learned from this that we could potentially use for

this that we could potentially use for

this that we could potentially use for something else

something else

something else it's not just did you solve the problem

it's not just did you solve the problem

it's not just did you solve the problem that was supposed to be famous

that was supposed to be famous

that was supposed to be famous it was and is there something new in the

it was and is there something new in the

it was and is there something new in the course of solving this

course of solving this

course of solving this that you had to invent that we could now

that you had to invent that we could now

that you had to invent that we could now use as a tool elsewhere

use as a tool elsewhere

use as a tool elsewhere you know there's this funny effect where

you know there's this funny effect where

you know there's this funny effect where uh just looking at different fields

uh just looking at different fields

uh just looking at different fields where people discover parallels

where people discover parallels

where people discover parallels they'll prove something it'll be a

they'll prove something it'll be a

they'll prove something it'll be a totally new result and then somebody

totally new result and then somebody

totally new result and then somebody later realizes this was already done 30

later realizes this was already done 30

later realizes this was already done 30 years ago and another discipline

years ago and another discipline

years ago and another discipline in another way and it's really

in another way and it's really

in another way and it's really interesting

interesting

interesting uh we did this offline in another

uh we did this offline in another

uh we did this offline in another illustration you showed to me

illustration you showed to me

illustration you showed to me it's interesting to see the different

it's interesting to see the different

it's interesting to see the different perspectives

perspectives

perspectives on a problem it kind of points like

on a problem it kind of points like

on a problem it kind of points like there's just like very few novel ideas

there's just like very few novel ideas

there's just like very few novel ideas that everything else that most of us are

that everything else that most of us are

that everything else that most of us are just looking at different perspective on

just looking at different perspective on

just looking at different perspective on the same idea

the same idea

the same idea and it makes you wonder this this uh

and it makes you wonder this this uh

and it makes you wonder this this uh this old silly question

this old silly question

this old silly question that i have to ask you is uh do you

that i have to ask you is uh do you

that i have to ask you is uh do you think

think

think mathematics is uh discovered or invented

mathematics is uh discovered or invented

mathematics is uh discovered or invented do you think we're creating

do you think we're creating

do you think we're creating a new idea we're building a set of

a new idea we're building a set of

a new idea we're building a set of knowledge

knowledge

knowledge that's that's distinct from reality

that's that's distinct from reality

that's that's distinct from reality or are we actually like it is math

or are we actually like it is math

or are we actually like it is math almost like a shovel where we're digging

almost like a shovel where we're digging

almost like a shovel where we're digging to

to

to like this core set of truths that are oh

like this core set of truths that are oh

like this core set of truths that are oh that

that

that that were always there all along so i

that were always there all along so i

that were always there all along so i personally feel like it's discovered

personally feel like it's discovered

personally feel like it's discovered but that's also because i guess the way

but that's also because i guess the way

but that's also because i guess the way that i'd like to choose what questions

that i'd like to choose what questions

that i'd like to choose what questions to work on

to work on

to work on are questions that maybe we'll get to

are questions that maybe we'll get to

are questions that maybe we'll get to learn something about

learn something about

learn something about why is this hard i mean i'm often

why is this hard i mean i'm often

why is this hard i mean i'm often attracted to questions that

attracted to questions that

attracted to questions that look simple but are hard right and what

look simple but are hard right and what

look simple but are hard right and what could you possibly learn from that sort

could you possibly learn from that sort

could you possibly learn from that sort of like probably the attraction of

of like probably the attraction of

of like probably the attraction of fermat's last theorem

fermat's last theorem

fermat's last theorem as you mentioned simple statement why is

as you mentioned simple statement why is

as you mentioned simple statement why is it so hard so i'm more on the

it so hard so i'm more on the

it so hard so i'm more on the discovered side and i also feel like if

discovered side and i also feel like if

discovered side and i also feel like if we ever ran into an intelligent

we ever ran into an intelligent

we ever ran into an intelligent other species in the universe

other species in the universe

other species in the universe probably if we compared notes there

probably if we compared notes there

probably if we compared notes there might be some similarities between

might be some similarities between

might be some similarities between both of us realizing that pi is

both of us realizing that pi is

both of us realizing that pi is important because

important because

important because you might say why why humans do humans

you might say why why humans do humans

you might say why why humans do humans like circles more than others i think

like circles more than others i think

like circles more than others i think stars also like circles i think planets

stars also like circles i think planets

stars also like circles i think planets like circles they're not perfect circles

like circles they're not perfect circles

like circles they're not perfect circles but nevertheless the concept of a circle

but nevertheless the concept of a circle

but nevertheless the concept of a circle is just point and

is just point and

is just point and constant distance it doesn't get any

constant distance it doesn't get any

constant distance it doesn't get any simpler than that it's possible that

simpler than that it's possible that

simpler than that it's possible that that like an alien species will have

that like an alien species will have

that like an alien species will have depending on different cognitive

depending on different cognitive

depending on different cognitive capabilities and

capabilities and

capabilities and different perception systems we'll be

different perception systems we'll be

different perception systems we'll be able to see

things that are much different than

things that are much different than circles and so

circles and so

circles and so if it's discovered it would still be

if it's discovered it would still be

if it's discovered it would still be pointing at a lot of same geometrical

pointing at a lot of same geometrical

pointing at a lot of same geometrical concepts

concepts

concepts mathematical concepts but

mathematical concepts but

mathematical concepts but it's interesting to think of how many

it's interesting to think of how many

it's interesting to think of how many things we would have to still

things we would have to still

things we would have to still align not just based on notation but

align not just based on notation but

align not just based on notation but based on

based on

based on understanding like just the like um

understanding like just the like um

understanding like just the like um some basic mathematical concepts like

some basic mathematical concepts like

some basic mathematical concepts like how much work is

how much work is

how much work is there going to be in trying to find a

there going to be in trying to find a

there going to be in trying to find a common language

common language

common language i mean this is um i think stephen

i mean this is um i think stephen

i mean this is um i think stephen wolfram and his son help with the movie

wolfram and his son help with the movie

wolfram and his son help with the movie arrival

arrival

arrival like the developing an alien language

like the developing an alien language

like the developing an alien language like how would aliens communicate with

like how would aliens communicate with

like how would aliens communicate with humans

humans

humans it's fascinating because like math seems

it's fascinating because like math seems

it's fascinating because like math seems to be the most promising thing but even

to be the most promising thing but even

to be the most promising thing but even like math

like math

like math like how do you visualize

like how do you visualize

like how do you visualize mathematical ideas it feels like there

mathematical ideas it feels like there

mathematical ideas it feels like there has to be an

has to be an

has to be an interactive component just like we have

interactive component just like we have

interactive component just like we have a conversation

a conversation

a conversation there has to be this is something we

there has to be this is something we

there has to be this is something we don't i think think about often which is

don't i think think about often which is

don't i think think about often which is like

like

like with somebody who doesn't know anything

with somebody who doesn't know anything

with somebody who doesn't know anything about math doesn't know anything about

about math doesn't know anything about

about math doesn't know anything about english or any other natural language

english or any other natural language

english or any other natural language how would we describe we talked offline

how would we describe we talked offline

how would we describe we talked offline about visual proofs

about visual proofs

about visual proofs how would we through visual proofs have

how would we through visual proofs have

how would we through visual proofs have a conversation

a conversation

a conversation where we say something here's the

where we say something here's the

where we say something here's the concept the way we see it

concept the way we see it

concept the way we see it does that make sense to you and like

does that make sense to you and like

does that make sense to you and like can you mess with that concept to make

can you mess with that concept to make

can you mess with that concept to make it sense for you

it sense for you

it sense for you and then go back and forth in this kind

and then go back and forth in this kind

and then go back and forth in this kind of way so purely through mathematics i'm

of way so purely through mathematics i'm

of way so purely through mathematics i'm sure it's possible to have those kind of

sure it's possible to have those kind of

sure it's possible to have those kind of experiments with like tribes

experiments with like tribes

experiments with like tribes on earth that don't there's no common

on earth that don't there's no common

on earth that don't there's no common language through math

language through math

language through math like draw a circle and see what they do

like draw a circle and see what they do

like draw a circle and see what they do with it

with it

with it right do some of these visual proofs uh

right do some of these visual proofs uh

right do some of these visual proofs uh like the summation of the odds and the

like the summation of the odds and the

like the summation of the odds and the the adds up to the squares

the adds up to the squares

the adds up to the squares yes i wonder how difficult that is uh

yes i wonder how difficult that is uh

yes i wonder how difficult that is uh before one one or the other species

before one one or the other species

before one one or the other species murders

i i hope that the curiosity for

i i hope that the curiosity for knowledge will overpower the greedy

knowledge will overpower the greedy

knowledge will overpower the greedy this is back to our game theory thing

this is back to our game theory thing

this is back to our game theory thing that the curiosity of like

that the curiosity of like

that the curiosity of like discovering math together will overpower

discovering math together will overpower

discovering math together will overpower the desire for resources

the desire for resources

the desire for resources and uh ultimately like you know

and uh ultimately like you know

and uh ultimately like you know willing to commit violence in order to

willing to commit violence in order to

willing to commit violence in order to gain those resources

gain those resources

gain those resources i think as we progress become more and

i think as we progress become more and

i think as we progress become more and more intelligence as a species i'm

more intelligence as a species i'm

more intelligence as a species i'm hoping

hoping

hoping we would value more and more the

we would value more and more the

we would value more and more the knowledge because we'll come up with

knowledge because we'll come up with

knowledge because we'll come up with clever ways to gain more resources so we

clever ways to gain more resources so we

clever ways to gain more resources so we won't be so resource starved

won't be so resource starved

won't be so resource starved i don't know that's a hopeful message

i don't know that's a hopeful message

i don't know that's a hopeful message from when we finally meet aliens

from when we finally meet aliens

from when we finally meet aliens yeah yeah see the cool thing about

yeah yeah see the cool thing about

yeah yeah see the cool thing about the math olympiad um i don't know if you

the math olympiad um i don't know if you

the math olympiad um i don't know if you know

know

know work from francois chole

work from francois chole

work from francois chole from google he come up he came up with

from google he come up he came up with

from google he come up he came up with this kind of

this kind of

this kind of iq test slash it kind of has

iq test slash it kind of has

iq test slash it kind of has similar aspects to it that also math

similar aspects to it that also math

similar aspects to it that also math olympia does

olympia does

olympia does for for ai so he came up with these

for for ai so he came up with these

for for ai so he came up with these tests

tests

tests where they're very simple for humans

where they're very simple for humans

where they're very simple for humans but very difficult for ai to illustrate

but very difficult for ai to illustrate

but very difficult for ai to illustrate exactly why we're just not good at

exactly why we're just not good at

exactly why we're just not good at seeing a totally new problem

we sorry ai systems are not good at

we sorry ai systems are not good at looking at a new problem that requires

looking at a new problem that requires

looking at a new problem that requires you to

you to

you to detect that there's a symmetry of some

detect that there's a symmetry of some

detect that there's a symmetry of some kind or

kind or

kind or there's a pattern that's that hasn't it

there's a pattern that's that hasn't it

there's a pattern that's that hasn't it hasn't seen before

hasn't seen before

hasn't seen before the pattern is like obvious to us humans

the pattern is like obvious to us humans

the pattern is like obvious to us humans but it's not so obvious to find that

but it's not so obvious to find that

but it's not so obvious to find that kind of

kind of

kind of it's you're inventing a pattern that's

it's you're inventing a pattern that's

it's you're inventing a pattern that's there

there

there in order to then find a solution

some i don't know if you can comment on

some i don't know if you can comment on but from an

but from an

but from an ai perspective and from a math problem

ai perspective and from a math problem

ai perspective and from a math problem perspective

perspective

perspective what do you think is intelligence what

what do you think is intelligence what

what do you think is intelligence what do you think is the thing

do you think is the thing

do you think is the thing that allows us to solve that problem and

that allows us to solve that problem and

that allows us to solve that problem and how hard is it to build a machine

how hard is it to build a machine

how hard is it to build a machine to do that asking for a friend yeah so i

to do that asking for a friend yeah so i

to do that asking for a friend yeah so i guess

guess

guess you see because if i just think of the

you see because if i just think of the

you see because if i just think of the raw search space it's huge yeah

raw search space it's huge yeah

raw search space it's huge yeah that's why you can't do it and if i

that's why you can't do it and if i

that's why you can't do it and if i think about what makes somebody good at

think about what makes somebody good at

think about what makes somebody good at doing these things they have this

doing these things they have this

doing these things they have this heuristic sense it's almost like a good

heuristic sense it's almost like a good

heuristic sense it's almost like a good chess player of saying

chess player of saying

chess player of saying let's not keep analyzing down this way

let's not keep analyzing down this way

let's not keep analyzing down this way because there's some heuristic reason

because there's some heuristic reason

because there's some heuristic reason why that's a bad way to go yes

why that's a bad way to go yes

why that's a bad way to go yes where did they get that heuristic from

where did they get that heuristic from

where did they get that heuristic from now that's a good question i don't know

now that's a good question i don't know

now that's a good question i don't know because that if you asked them to

because that if you asked them to

because that if you asked them to explain to you

explain to you

explain to you they could probably say something in

they could probably say something in

they could probably say something in words that sounds like it makes sense

words that sounds like it makes sense

words that sounds like it makes sense yeah but i'm guessing that's only a part

yeah but i'm guessing that's only a part

yeah but i'm guessing that's only a part of what's really going

of what's really going

of what's really going on in their brain of evaluating that

on in their brain of evaluating that

on in their brain of evaluating that position you know what i mean if you ask

position you know what i mean if you ask

position you know what i mean if you ask gary kasparov what is good or

gary kasparov what is good or

gary kasparov what is good or why is this position good he will say

why is this position good he will say

why is this position good he will say something yeah but it's probably not

something yeah but it's probably not

something yeah but it's probably not approximating everything that's going on

approximating everything that's going on

approximating everything that's going on inside

inside

inside so there's basically a function being

so there's basically a function being

so there's basically a function being computed yeah but it's hard to

computed yeah but it's hard to

computed yeah but it's hard to articulate what that function is

articulate what that function is

articulate what that function is now the question is could a computer get

now the question is could a computer get

now the question is could a computer get as good at computing these kinds of

as good at computing these kinds of

as good at computing these kinds of heuristic functions

heuristic functions

heuristic functions maybe i i'm not enough of an expert to

maybe i i'm not enough of an expert to

maybe i i'm not enough of an expert to understand

understand

understand but one bit of me has always been a

but one bit of me has always been a

but one bit of me has always been a little bit curious of whether or not the

little bit curious of whether or not the

little bit curious of whether or not the human brain

human brain

human brain has a particular tendency due to its

has a particular tendency due to its

has a particular tendency due to its wiring to come up with certain kinds of

wiring to come up with certain kinds of

wiring to come up with certain kinds of things

things

things which is just natural due to the way

which is just natural due to the way

which is just natural due to the way that the

that the

that the topology of the neurons and whatever is

topology of the neurons and whatever is

topology of the neurons and whatever is there for which if you tried to just

there for which if you tried to just

there for which if you tried to just build from scratch a computer to do it

build from scratch a computer to do it

build from scratch a computer to do it would it naturally have different

would it naturally have different

would it naturally have different tendencies

tendencies

tendencies i don't know and this is just me being

i don't know and this is just me being

i don't know and this is just me being completely ignorant and just saying a

completely ignorant and just saying a

completely ignorant and just saying a few ideas

few ideas

few ideas well this is a good thing with that

well this is a good thing with that

well this is a good thing with that mathematics shows is we don't have to be

mathematics shows is we don't have to be

mathematics shows is we don't have to be so math and physics or mathematical

so math and physics or mathematical

so math and physics or mathematical physics

physics

physics operates in a world that's different

operates in a world that's different

operates in a world that's different than our

than our

than our descendant of a brains operate in

descendant of a brains operate in

descendant of a brains operate in so it allows us to to have multiple

so it allows us to to have multiple

so it allows us to to have multiple many many dimensions it allows us to

many many dimensions it allows us to

many many dimensions it allows us to work on on weird surfaces

work on on weird surfaces

work on on weird surfaces uh with like topology as a discipline

uh with like topology as a discipline

uh with like topology as a discipline it's just weird to me

it's just weird to me

it's just weird to me it's really complicated but it allows us

it's really complicated but it allows us

it's really complicated but it allows us to work in that space

to work in that space

to work in that space the differential geometry and all those

the differential geometry and all those

the differential geometry and all those kinds of things where

kinds of things where

kinds of things where it's totally outside of our natural

it's totally outside of our natural

it's totally outside of our natural day-to-day

day-to-day

day-to-day four-dimensional experience uh 3d

four-dimensional experience uh 3d

four-dimensional experience uh 3d dimensional with time

dimensional with time

dimensional with time experience so math gives us gives me

experience so math gives us gives me

experience so math gives us gives me hope

hope

hope that we can that

that we can that

that we can that we can see we can discover the processes

we can see we can discover the processes

we can see we can discover the processes of intelligence

of intelligence

of intelligence uh outside the limited nature of our own

uh outside the limited nature of our own

uh outside the limited nature of our own like human experiences

like human experiences

like human experiences but you said that you're not an expert

but you said that you're not an expert

but you said that you're not an expert it's kind of funny i i i find that um

it's kind of funny i i i find that um

it's kind of funny i i i find that um we know so little about intelligence

we know so little about intelligence

we know so little about intelligence that uh i think i honestly think like

that uh i think i honestly think like

that uh i think i honestly think like almost

almost

almost children are more expert at

children are more expert at

children are more expert at creating artificial intelligence systems

creating artificial intelligence systems

creating artificial intelligence systems uh

uh

uh than than adults i feel like we know so

than than adults i feel like we know so

than than adults i feel like we know so little we really need to think outside

little we really need to think outside

little we really need to think outside the box

the box

the box and those little i found people should

and those little i found people should

and those little i found people should uh check out francois charley's little

uh check out francois charley's little

uh check out francois charley's little exams

exams

exams but even just solving math problems

but even just solving math problems

but even just solving math problems i don't know if you've ever done this

i don't know if you've ever done this

i don't know if you've ever done this for yourself but

for yourself but

for yourself but when you solve a math problem you kind

when you solve a math problem you kind

when you solve a math problem you kind of then

of then

of then traced back and tried to figure out

traced back and tried to figure out

traced back and tried to figure out where did that idea come from

where did that idea come from

where did that idea come from like what how did like what was i

like what how did like what was i

like what how did like what was i visualizing in my head

visualizing in my head

visualizing in my head how did i start visualizing it that way

how did i start visualizing it that way

how did i start visualizing it that way how why did i start rotating that cube

how why did i start rotating that cube

how why did i start rotating that cube in my head in that way

in my head in that way

in my head in that way like what is that if i were to try to

like what is that if i were to try to

like what is that if i were to try to build a program that does that

build a program that does that

build a program that does that where that come from so this is

where that come from so this is

where that come from so this is interesting um

interesting um

interesting um so i try to do this to teach middle

so i try to do this to teach middle

so i try to do this to teach middle school students

school students

school students how to learn how to create create and

how to learn how to create create and

how to learn how to create create and think and invent and the way i do it

think and invent and the way i do it

think and invent and the way i do it is there are these math competition

is there are these math competition

is there are these math competition problems and i'm working in

problems and i'm working in

problems and i'm working in collaboration with the people who run

collaboration with the people who run

collaboration with the people who run those

those

those and i will turn on my youtube live and

and i will turn on my youtube live and

and i will turn on my youtube live and for the first time look at those

for the first time look at those

for the first time look at those questions

questions

questions and live solve them the reason i do this

and live solve them the reason i do this

and live solve them the reason i do this is to let the middle school students and

is to let the middle school students and

is to let the middle school students and the high school students and the adults

the high school students and the adults

the high school students and the adults whoever wants to watch

whoever wants to watch

whoever wants to watch just see what exactly goes on through

just see what exactly goes on through

just see what exactly goes on through someone's head

someone's head

someone's head as they go and attempt to invent what

as they go and attempt to invent what

as they go and attempt to invent what they need to do to solve the question

they need to do to solve the question

they need to do to solve the question so i've actually thought about that i

so i've actually thought about that i

so i've actually thought about that i think that

think that

think that first of all as a teacher i think about

first of all as a teacher i think about

first of all as a teacher i think about that because whenever i want to explain

that because whenever i want to explain

that because whenever i want to explain to a student how to do something

to a student how to do something

to a student how to do something i want to explain how it made sense why

i want to explain how it made sense why

i want to explain how it made sense why it's intuitive to do the following

it's intuitive to do the following

it's intuitive to do the following things

things

things and why the wrong things are wrong not

and why the wrong things are wrong not

and why the wrong things are wrong not just by this one short fast way

just by this one short fast way

just by this one short fast way well why this is the right way if that

well why this is the right way if that

well why this is the right way if that makes sense so my point is i'm actually

makes sense so my point is i'm actually

makes sense so my point is i'm actually always thinking about that

always thinking about that

always thinking about that like how would you think about these

like how would you think about these

like how would you think about these things and then i eventually decided the

things and then i eventually decided the

things and then i eventually decided the easiest way to expose this

easiest way to expose this

easiest way to expose this would just be to go live on youtube and

would just be to go live on youtube and

would just be to go live on youtube and just say i've never seen any of these

just say i've never seen any of these

just say i've never seen any of these questions before here we go

questions before here we go

questions before here we go don't you get uh man that's that's

don't you get uh man that's that's

don't you get uh man that's that's anxiety inducing for me

anxiety inducing for me

anxiety inducing for me uh don't you get trapped in

uh don't you get trapped in

uh don't you get trapped in a kind of like little dead ends of

a kind of like little dead ends of

a kind of like little dead ends of confusion

confusion

confusion even on middle school problems yes

even on middle school problems yes

even on middle school problems yes that's what the comments are for

that's what the comments are for

that's what the comments are for the live contents come in and students

the live contents come in and students

the live contents come in and students say try this oh wow

say try this oh wow

say try this oh wow it's actually pretty good i'll never get

it's actually pretty good i'll never get

it's actually pretty good i'll never get stuck i mean i'm i'm willing to go on

stuck i mean i'm i'm willing to go on

stuck i mean i'm i'm willing to go on camera and say

camera and say

camera and say guess what potion though can't do this

guess what potion though can't do this

guess what potion though can't do this that's fine but then what ends up

that's fine but then what ends up

that's fine but then what ends up happening

happening

happening is you will then see how maybe

is you will then see how maybe

is you will then see how maybe somebody's saying something and i look

somebody's saying something and i look

somebody's saying something and i look at the chat and i say aha

at the chat and i say aha

at the chat and i say aha that actually looks useful now that also

that actually looks useful now that also

that actually looks useful now that also shows how

shows how

shows how not all ideas not all suggestions are

not all ideas not all suggestions are

not all ideas not all suggestions are the same power

the same power

the same power if that makes sense because if i

if that makes sense because if i

if that makes sense because if i actually do get stuck i'll go fishing

actually do get stuck i'll go fishing

actually do get stuck i'll go fishing through the chat

through the chat

through the chat [Laughter]

[Laughter]

[Laughter] i don't know if you can speak to this

i don't know if you can speak to this

i don't know if you can speak to this but is there a moment

but is there a moment

but is there a moment for the middle school students maybe

for the middle school students maybe

for the middle school students maybe high school as well

high school as well

high school as well where there's like a turning point for

where there's like a turning point for

where there's like a turning point for them

them

them where they maybe fall in love with

where they maybe fall in love with

where they maybe fall in love with mathematics

mathematics

mathematics or they or they get it is there um

or they or they get it is there um

or they or they get it is there um is there something to be said about like

is there something to be said about like

is there something to be said about like discovering that moment and

discovering that moment and

discovering that moment and and trying to grab them to get to get

and trying to grab them to get to get

and trying to grab them to get to get them to

them to

them to understand that mathematics is so no

understand that mathematics is so no

understand that mathematics is so no matter what they want to do in life

matter what they want to do in life

matter what they want to do in life could be part of their life

could be part of their life

could be part of their life yes i actually do think that the middle

yes i actually do think that the middle

yes i actually do think that the middle school is exactly the right time

school is exactly the right time

school is exactly the right time because that's the place where your

because that's the place where your

because that's the place where your mathematical understanding

mathematical understanding

mathematical understanding gets just sophisticated enough that you

gets just sophisticated enough that you

gets just sophisticated enough that you can start doing interesting things

can start doing interesting things

can start doing interesting things because if you're early on in counting

because if you're early on in counting

because if you're early on in counting i'm honestly not very good at teaching

i'm honestly not very good at teaching

i'm honestly not very good at teaching you new insights

you new insights

you new insights my wife is pretty good at that but

my wife is pretty good at that but

my wife is pretty good at that but somehow once you get to this

somehow once you get to this

somehow once you get to this this part where you know what a fraction

this part where you know what a fraction

this part where you know what a fraction is and when you know

is and when you know

is and when you know um how to add and how to multiply and

um how to add and how to multiply and

um how to add and how to multiply and what the area of a triangle is

what the area of a triangle is

what the area of a triangle is at that point to me the whole world

at that point to me the whole world

at that point to me the whole world opens up and you can start observing

opens up and you can start observing

opens up and you can start observing there are really nifty coincidences

there are really nifty coincidences

there are really nifty coincidences the things that made the greek

the things that made the greek

the things that made the greek mathematicians and the ancient

mathematicians and the ancient

mathematicians and the ancient mathematicians excited

mathematicians excited

mathematicians excited actually back then it was exciting to

actually back then it was exciting to

actually back then it was exciting to discover the pythagorean theorem

discover the pythagorean theorem

discover the pythagorean theorem it wasn't just homework so is there

it wasn't just homework so is there

it wasn't just homework so is there what which discipline do you think has

what which discipline do you think has

what which discipline do you think has the most exciting coincidences so

the most exciting coincidences so

the most exciting coincidences so is it geometry is it algebra

is it geometry is it algebra

is it geometry is it algebra um is it calculus well you see you're

um is it calculus well you see you're

um is it calculus well you see you're asking me and i'm the guy who gets the

asking me and i'm the guy who gets the

asking me and i'm the guy who gets the most excited

most excited

most excited when the combinatorics shows up in the

when the combinatorics shows up in the

when the combinatorics shows up in the geometry

geometry

geometry is it okay so it's the combinatorics

is it okay so it's the combinatorics

is it okay so it's the combinatorics in the geometry so first of all the nice

in the geometry so first of all the nice

in the geometry so first of all the nice thing about geometry

thing about geometry

thing about geometry this is the same nice thing about

this is the same nice thing about

this is the same nice thing about computer vision is it's

computer vision is it's

computer vision is it's visual so geometry you can draw circles

visual so geometry you can draw circles

visual so geometry you can draw circles and triangles and stuff so

and triangles and stuff so

and triangles and stuff so it naturally uh presents itself to uh

it naturally uh presents itself to uh

it naturally uh presents itself to uh to the visual proof right but also the

to the visual proof right but also the

to the visual proof right but also the nice thing about geometry i think

nice thing about geometry i think

nice thing about geometry i think for me is the earliest

for me is the earliest

for me is the earliest class the earliest discipline where

class the earliest discipline where

class the earliest discipline where there's

there's

there's uh that's most amenable to the

uh that's most amenable to the

uh that's most amenable to the exploration

exploration

exploration of the invention through proofs the idea

of the invention through proofs the idea

of the invention through proofs the idea of proofs i think is most easily

of proofs i think is most easily

of proofs i think is most easily shown in in geometry because it's so

shown in in geometry because it's so

shown in in geometry because it's so visual i guess

visual i guess

visual i guess so that that to me is like uh if i were

so that that to me is like uh if i were

so that that to me is like uh if i were to think about when i first

to think about when i first

to think about when i first fell in love with math it would be

fell in love with math it would be

fell in love with math it would be geometry and sadly enough

geometry and sadly enough

geometry and sadly enough that's not used geometry only has a

that's not used geometry only has a

that's not used geometry only has a little appears briefly

little appears briefly

little appears briefly in the journey of of an um of a student

in the journey of of an um of a student

in the journey of of an um of a student and it kind of disappears and not until

and it kind of disappears and not until

and it kind of disappears and not until much later which

much later which

much later which you know to maybe like differential

you know to maybe like differential

you know to maybe like differential geometry i don't know where else it

geometry i don't know where else it

geometry i don't know where else it shows up for me in computer science like

shows up for me in computer science like

shows up for me in computer science like you can start to think about like

you can start to think about like

you can start to think about like computational geometry or even graph

computational geometry or even graph

computational geometry or even graph theory is the kind of geometry you can

theory is the kind of geometry you can

theory is the kind of geometry you can start to think about it visually

start to think about it visually

start to think about it visually although it's pretty tricky but yeah it

although it's pretty tricky but yeah it

although it's pretty tricky but yeah it was always um

was always um

was always um that that was the most beautiful one

that that was the most beautiful one

that that was the most beautiful one everything else i guess calculus can be

everything else i guess calculus can be

everything else i guess calculus can be kind of visual too that can that could

kind of visual too that can that could

kind of visual too that can that could be pretty beautiful

be pretty beautiful

be pretty beautiful but is there um something

but is there um something

but is there um something you try to look for in the student

you try to look for in the student

you try to look for in the student to see like how can i inspire them at

to see like how can i inspire them at

to see like how can i inspire them at this moment

this moment

this moment or is this like individual student to

or is this like individual student to

or is this like individual student to student is there something you could say

student is there something you could say

student is there something you could say there

there

there so first of all i really think that

so first of all i really think that

so first of all i really think that every student can pick up all of this

every student can pick up all of this

every student can pick up all of this skill

skill

skill i really do think so i don't think it's

i really do think so i don't think it's

i really do think so i don't think it's something only for a few and so

something only for a few and so

something only for a few and so if i'm looking for a student actually

if i'm looking for a student actually

if i'm looking for a student actually oftentimes when i'm

oftentimes when i'm

oftentimes when i'm if i'm looking at a particular student

if i'm looking at a particular student

if i'm looking at a particular student the question is

the question is

the question is how can we help you feel like you have

how can we help you feel like you have

how can we help you feel like you have the power to invent also

the power to invent also

the power to invent also because i think a lot of people are used

because i think a lot of people are used

because i think a lot of people are used to thinking about math as something

to thinking about math as something

to thinking about math as something where the teacher will show you what to

where the teacher will show you what to

where the teacher will show you what to do

do

do and then you will do it yes so i think

and then you will do it yes so i think

and then you will do it yes so i think that the key is to

that the key is to

that the key is to show that they have some let them see

show that they have some let them see

show that they have some let them see that they have some power to invent

that they have some power to invent

that they have some power to invent and at that point it's often starting by

and at that point it's often starting by

and at that point it's often starting by trying to give a question that they

trying to give a question that they

trying to give a question that they don't know how to do

don't know how to do

don't know how to do you want to find these questions that

you want to find these questions that

you want to find these questions that they don't know how to do that they

they don't know how to do that they

they don't know how to do that they can think about and then they can solve

can think about and then they can solve

can think about and then they can solve and then suddenly they say

and then suddenly they say

and then suddenly they say my gosh i've had a situation i haven't

my gosh i've had a situation i haven't

my gosh i've had a situation i haven't i've had an experience

i've had an experience

i've had an experience where i didn't know what to do and after

where i didn't know what to do and after

where i didn't know what to do and after a while i did

a while i did

a while i did is there um advice you can give on how

is there um advice you can give on how

is there um advice you can give on how to learn math for people whether it's

to learn math for people whether it's

to learn math for people whether it's middle school whether it's somebody

middle school whether it's somebody

middle school whether it's somebody as an adult kind of gave up on math

as an adult kind of gave up on math

as an adult kind of gave up on math maybe early on

maybe early on

maybe early on i actually think that these math

i actually think that these math

i actually think that these math competition problems those school and

competition problems those school and

competition problems those school and high school are really good

high school are really good

high school are really good they're actually very hard so if you if

they're actually very hard so if you if

they're actually very hard so if you if you haven't had this

you haven't had this

you haven't had this kind of experience before and you grab a

kind of experience before and you grab a

kind of experience before and you grab a middle school math competition problem

middle school math competition problem

middle school math competition problem from the state level which is used to

from the state level which is used to

from the state level which is used to decide who represents the state in the

decide who represents the state in the

decide who represents the state in the country in the united states for example

country in the united states for example

country in the united states for example those are pretty tricky and even if

those are pretty tricky and even if

those are pretty tricky and even if you're a professional

you're a professional

you're a professional maybe not doing mathematical things and

maybe not doing mathematical things and

maybe not doing mathematical things and you're not a middle school student

you're not a middle school student

you're not a middle school student you'll struggle

you'll struggle

you'll struggle so i find that these things really do

so i find that these things really do

so i find that these things really do teach you things but by trying to work

teach you things but by trying to work

teach you things but by trying to work on these questions

on these questions

on these questions is there a a googleable term that you

is there a a googleable term that you

is there a a googleable term that you could use for the organization

could use for the organization

could use for the organization for the state competitions ah yeah so

for the state competitions ah yeah so

for the state competitions ah yeah so there are a number of different ones

there are a number of different ones

there are a number of different ones that are quite popular

that are quite popular

that are quite popular one of them is called math counts

one of them is called math counts

one of them is called math counts m-a-t-h-c-o-u-n-t-s

m-a-t-h-c-o-u-n-t-s

m-a-t-h-c-o-u-n-t-s and that's a big tournament which

and that's a big tournament which

and that's a big tournament which actually has a state level there's also

actually has a state level there's also

actually has a state level there's also a math league.org

a math league.org

a math league.org mathleaguelegue.org also has

mathleaguelegue.org also has

mathleaguelegue.org also has this kind of tiered the tournament

this kind of tiered the tournament

this kind of tiered the tournament structure there's also the american math

structure there's also the american math

structure there's also the american math competitions amc8

competitions amc8

competitions amc8 amc also has amc 10 that's for 10th

amc also has amc 10 that's for 10th

amc also has amc 10 that's for 10th grade and below and amc 12.

grade and below and amc 12.

grade and below and amc 12. these are all run by the mathematical

these are all run by the mathematical

these are all run by the mathematical association of america

association of america

association of america and these are all ways to find old

and these are all ways to find old

and these are all ways to find old questions what about the daily

questions what about the daily

questions what about the daily challenges that you run

challenges that you run

challenges that you run what are those about we do that too but

what are those about we do that too but

what are those about we do that too but i mean the difference was um ours isn't

i mean the difference was um ours isn't

i mean the difference was um ours isn't that one is not free so so this i should

that one is not free so so this i should

that one is not free so so this i should actually probably be careful the things

actually probably be careful the things

actually probably be careful the things that i've just mentioned are also not

that i've just mentioned are also not

that i've just mentioned are also not free

free

free not all of those things i mentioned just

not all of those things i mentioned just

not all of those things i mentioned just now are free either but people can

now are free either but people can

now are free either but people can figure out what it is

figure out what it is

figure out what it is but yeah this is really nice to know

but yeah this is really nice to know

but yeah this is really nice to know what's out there but can you speak a

what's out there but can you speak a

what's out there but can you speak a little bit to the daily challenges

little bit to the daily challenges

little bit to the daily challenges sure sure so that's actually what we did

sure sure so that's actually what we did

sure sure so that's actually what we did when um

when um

when um i guess i was thinking about how would i

i guess i was thinking about how would i

i guess i was thinking about how would i try

try

try to develop that skill in people if we

to develop that skill in people if we

to develop that skill in people if we had the power to architect the entire

had the power to architect the entire

had the power to architect the entire system ourselves

system ourselves

system ourselves so that's called the daily challenge

so that's called the daily challenge

so that's called the daily challenge with potion low it's not free because

with potion low it's not free because

with potion low it's not free because that's actually how i pay for everything

that's actually how i pay for everything

that's actually how i pay for everything else i do so that's that was the idea

else i do so that's that was the idea

else i do so that's that was the idea but the the concept was aha now let's

but the the concept was aha now let's

but the the concept was aha now let's invent from scratch

invent from scratch

invent from scratch so if we're going to go from scratch and

so if we're going to go from scratch and

so if we're going to go from scratch and we're going to use technology

we're going to use technology

we're going to use technology what if we made every single lesson

what if we made every single lesson

what if we made every single lesson something where first i say hey here's

something where first i say hey here's

something where first i say hey here's an interesting question recorded of

an interesting question recorded of

an interesting question recorded of course it's not live but it's like i say

course it's not live but it's like i say

course it's not live but it's like i say hey here's an interesting question why

hey here's an interesting question why

hey here's an interesting question why don't we think about this

don't we think about this

don't we think about this but i know i know you don't know how to

but i know i know you don't know how to

but i know i know you don't know how to do it so now you think

do it so now you think

do it so now you think and a minute later a hint pops on the

and a minute later a hint pops on the

and a minute later a hint pops on the screen but you still think and a minute

screen but you still think and a minute

screen but you still think and a minute later a big hint pops on the screen

later a big hint pops on the screen

later a big hint pops on the screen you still think and then finally after

you still think and then finally after

you still think and then finally after the three minutes hopefully you got some

the three minutes hopefully you got some

the three minutes hopefully you got some ideas you try to answer

ideas you try to answer

ideas you try to answer and then suddenly there's like this

and then suddenly there's like this

and then suddenly there's like this pretty extended explanation of

pretty extended explanation of

pretty extended explanation of oh yeah so here's like multiple

oh yeah so here's like multiple

oh yeah so here's like multiple different ways that you can do the

different ways that you can do the

different ways that you can do the question

question

question and by accident you also just learn this

and by accident you also just learn this

and by accident you also just learn this other concept

other concept

other concept that's what we did so is this targeted

that's what we did so is this targeted

that's what we did so is this targeted towards middle school students

towards middle school students

towards middle school students high school students it's targeted

high school students it's targeted

high school students it's targeted towards middle school students with

towards middle school students with

towards middle school students with competitions

competitions

competitions but there's a lot of high school

but there's a lot of high school

but there's a lot of high school students who didn't do competitions in

students who didn't do competitions in

students who didn't do competitions in middle school

middle school

middle school where they would also learn how to think

where they would also learn how to think

where they would also learn how to think if you can see the whole concept was

if you can see the whole concept was

if you can see the whole concept was can we teach people how to think how

can we teach people how to think how

can we teach people how to think how would you do that you need to give

would you do that you need to give

would you do that you need to give people the chance to

people the chance to

people the chance to on their own invent without that kid in

on their own invent without that kid in

on their own invent without that kid in the front row answering every question

the front row answering every question

the front row answering every question in two seconds

in two seconds

in two seconds and people can find it i think with

and people can find it i think with

and people can find it i think with daily dot

but if you go to find my website you

but if you go to find my website you you'll be able to find it

you'll be able to find it

you'll be able to find it beautiful can we zoom out a little bit

beautiful can we zoom out a little bit

beautiful can we zoom out a little bit and uh

and uh

and uh so day to day week to week month to

so day to day week to week month to

so day to day week to week month to month year to year what does

month year to year what does

month year to year what does the lifelong educational process look

the lifelong educational process look

the lifelong educational process look like

like

like do you think for for yourself

do you think for for yourself

do you think for for yourself but for for me what would you recommend

but for for me what would you recommend

but for for me what would you recommend in in the world of mathematics or sort

in in the world of mathematics or sort

in in the world of mathematics or sort of as opposed to studying for a test but

of as opposed to studying for a test but

of as opposed to studying for a test but just like

just like

just like lifelong expanding

lifelong expanding

lifelong expanding of uh knowledge and that skill for

of uh knowledge and that skill for

of uh knowledge and that skill for invention i think i often articulate

invention i think i often articulate

invention i think i often articulate this as

this as

this as can you always try to do more than you

can you always try to do more than you

can you always try to do more than you could do in the past

could do in the past

could do in the past yeah but that comes in many ways and

yeah but that comes in many ways and

yeah but that comes in many ways and i will say it's great if one wants to

i will say it's great if one wants to

i will say it's great if one wants to build that with mathematics

build that with mathematics

build that with mathematics but it's also great to use that

but it's also great to use that

but it's also great to use that philosophy with all other things

philosophy with all other things

philosophy with all other things in fact if i if i just think of myself i

in fact if i if i just think of myself i

in fact if i if i just think of myself i just think what do i know now that i

just think what do i know now that i

just think what do i know now that i didn't know a year ago or a month ago or

didn't know a year ago or a month ago or

didn't know a year ago or a month ago or a week ago

a week ago

a week ago and not just know but like what do i

and not just know but like what do i

and not just know but like what do i have the capability of doing yes

have the capability of doing yes

have the capability of doing yes and if you just have that attitude it

and if you just have that attitude it

and if you just have that attitude it brings more

brings more

brings more see the thing is there's also a habit

see the thing is there's also a habit

see the thing is there's also a habit like it is a skill like i've been using

like it is a skill like i've been using

like it is a skill like i've been using anki it's an app for helps you memorize

anki it's an app for helps you memorize

anki it's an app for helps you memorize things

things

things and i've actually just a

and i've actually just a

and i've actually just a few months ago started doing this daily

few months ago started doing this daily

few months ago started doing this daily of uh

of uh

of uh setting aside time to think about an

setting aside time to think about an

setting aside time to think about an idea

idea

idea that's outside of my work like let's say

that's outside of my work like let's say

that's outside of my work like let's say let's pick

let's pick

let's pick put it it's all over the place by the

put it it's all over the place by the

put it it's all over the place by the way but let's say politics like gun

way but let's say politics like gun

way but let's say politics like gun control

control

control uh is it good to have a lot of guns or

uh is it good to have a lot of guns or

uh is it good to have a lot of guns or not in society

not in society

not in society and just i've set aside time every day

and just i've set aside time every day

and just i've set aside time every day i do at least 10 minutes but i try to do

i do at least 10 minutes but i try to do

i do at least 10 minutes but i try to do 30 where i think about a problem and

30 where i think about a problem and

30 where i think about a problem and kind of outlining for myself from

kind of outlining for myself from

kind of outlining for myself from scratch from not looking anything up

scratch from not looking anything up

scratch from not looking anything up just thinking about it

just thinking about it

just thinking about it using common sense and i think the

using common sense and i think the

using common sense and i think the practice of that is really important

practice of that is really important

practice of that is really important it's the daily routine of it

it's the daily routine of it

it's the daily routine of it it's the discipline of it it's not just

it's the discipline of it it's not just

it's the discipline of it it's not just that

that

that i figured something out from that

i figured something out from that

i figured something out from that thinking about gun control

thinking about gun control

thinking about gun control it's more that that muscle is built

it's more that that muscle is built

it's more that that muscle is built too it's that thinking muscle so i'm

too it's that thinking muscle so i'm

too it's that thinking muscle so i'm kind of interested in

kind of interested in

kind of interested in you know math has because especially

you know math has because especially

you know math has because especially because

because

because i've gotten specialized into machine

i've gotten specialized into machine

i've gotten specialized into machine learning and because i love programming

learning and because i love programming

learning and because i love programming so much

so much

so much i've lost touch with math

i've lost touch with math

i've lost touch with math a little bit to where i feel

a little bit to where i feel

a little bit to where i feel quite sad about it and i want to fix

quite sad about it and i want to fix

quite sad about it and i want to fix that um

that um

that um even just not math like pure knowledge

even just not math like pure knowledge

even just not math like pure knowledge math but math like these middle school

math but math like these middle school

math but math like these middle school problems

problems

problems the challenges right um

the challenges right um

the challenges right um is that something you see a person be

is that something you see a person be

is that something you see a person be able to do every single day kind of just

able to do every single day kind of just

able to do every single day kind of just practice

practice

practice every single day for years so i can give

every single day for years so i can give

every single day for years so i can give an answer to that that gives a practical

an answer to that that gives a practical

an answer to that that gives a practical way you could do it assuming you have

way you could do it assuming you have

way you could do it assuming you have kids

kids

kids so i

i'm just saying this because i'm just

i'm just saying this because i'm just thinking out loud right now like what

thinking out loud right now like what

thinking out loud right now like what could i do

could i do

could i do what could i do to suggest because what

what could i do to suggest because what

what could i do to suggest because what i have noticed is that for example if

i have noticed is that for example if

i have noticed is that for example if you do have kids who are in elementary

you do have kids who are in elementary

you do have kids who are in elementary school or middle school

school or middle school

school or middle school if you yourself go and look at those

if you yourself go and look at those

if you yourself go and look at those middle school math problems

middle school math problems

middle school math problems to think about interesting ways that you

to think about interesting ways that you

to think about interesting ways that you can teach your elementary school or

can teach your elementary school or

can teach your elementary school or middle school kid

middle school kid

middle school kid it works that's what my wife did she

it works that's what my wife did she

it works that's what my wife did she never did any of those contests before

never did any of those contests before

never did any of those contests before but now she knows quite a lot about that

but now she knows quite a lot about that

but now she knows quite a lot about that i didn't teach her anything i don't i

i didn't teach her anything i don't i

i didn't teach her anything i don't i don't do that

don't do that

don't do that she just was messing around with them

she just was messing around with them

she just was messing around with them and taught herself

and taught herself

and taught herself all of that stuff and that had the

all of that stuff and that had the

all of that stuff and that had the automatic daily i i'm always thinking

automatic daily i i'm always thinking

automatic daily i i'm always thinking how do you make it practical right yes

how do you make it practical right yes

how do you make it practical right yes and the way to make it practical

and the way to make it practical

and the way to make it practical is if the the timer on the automatically

is if the the timer on the automatically

is if the the timer on the automatically daily is that you are going to

daily is that you are going to

daily is that you are going to automatically daily do something with

automatically daily do something with

automatically daily do something with your own kid

your own kid

your own kid yes now it feeds back okay and that

yes now it feeds back okay and that

yes now it feeds back okay and that includes the whole lesson that if you

includes the whole lesson that if you

includes the whole lesson that if you want to learn something you should teach

want to learn something you should teach

want to learn something you should teach it

it

it oh i strongly believe that yes i

oh i strongly believe that yes i

oh i strongly believe that yes i strongly believe

strongly believe

strongly believe and that so i currently don't have kids

and that so i currently don't have kids

and that so i currently don't have kids so that's uh

so that's uh

so that's uh maybe i should just get kids to help me

maybe i should just get kids to help me

maybe i should just get kids to help me with the math thing but

with the math thing but

with the math thing but outside of that i i do want to do great

outside of that i i do want to do great

outside of that i i do want to do great math into daily practice so

math into daily practice so

math into daily practice so i'll definitely take out uh i'll

i'll definitely take out uh i'll

i'll definitely take out uh i'll definitely check out the daily

definitely check out the daily

definitely check out the daily challenges and see

challenges and see

challenges and see because um what is it uh grant sanderson

because um what is it uh grant sanderson

because um what is it uh grant sanderson we talked about offline

we talked about offline

we talked about offline three blue one brown he he speaks to

three blue one brown he he speaks to

three blue one brown he he speaks to this

this

this as well that his videos aren't

as well that his videos aren't

as well that his videos aren't necessarily

necessarily

necessarily they don't speak to the thing that i'm

they don't speak to the thing that i'm

they don't speak to the thing that i'm referring to which is the daily practice

referring to which is the daily practice

referring to which is the daily practice they're more almost tools of inspiration

they're more almost tools of inspiration

they're more almost tools of inspiration they kind of show you the beauty of a

they kind of show you the beauty of a

they kind of show you the beauty of a particular

particular

particular of problem in mathematics

of problem in mathematics

of problem in mathematics but they're not a daily ritual and i'm

but they're not a daily ritual and i'm

but they're not a daily ritual and i'm i'm in

i'm in

i'm in i'm in search of that daily ritual

i'm in search of that daily ritual

i'm in search of that daily ritual mathematics it's not it's not trivial to

mathematics it's not it's not trivial to

mathematics it's not it's not trivial to find

find

find um but uh i hope

um but uh i hope

um but uh i hope i hope to find that because i think math

i hope to find that because i think math

i hope to find that because i think math gives you a perspective on the world

gives you a perspective on the world

gives you a perspective on the world that enriches everything else so i like

that enriches everything else so i like

that enriches everything else so i like what you said about the daily also

what you said about the daily also

what you said about the daily also because that's also one reason why i put

because that's also one reason why i put

because that's also one reason why i put my carnegie mellon class online it's not

my carnegie mellon class online it's not

my carnegie mellon class online it's not every day it was every it's every other

every day it was every it's every other

every day it was every it's every other day semester is almost over

day semester is almost over

day semester is almost over but the idea was i guess my philosophy

but the idea was i guess my philosophy

but the idea was i guess my philosophy was if i'm already doing the class let's

was if i'm already doing the class let's

was if i'm already doing the class let's just like put it there right

just like put it there right

just like put it there right but i do know that there are people who

but i do know that there are people who

but i do know that there are people who have been following it

have been following it

have been following it who are not in my class at all who have

who are not in my class at all who have

who are not in my class at all who have just been following it because yes it's

just been following it because yes it's

just been following it because yes it's combinatorics

combinatorics

combinatorics and the value of that is you could you

and the value of that is you could you

and the value of that is you could you don't really need to know calculus to

don't really need to know calculus to

don't really need to know calculus to follow it if that makes sense

follow it if that makes sense

follow it if that makes sense so it's actually something that people

so it's actually something that people

so it's actually something that people could follow so again and that one's

could follow so again and that one's

could follow so again and that one's free so

free so

free so that was just there on youtube well

that was just there on youtube well

that was just there on youtube well speaking of combinatorics

speaking of combinatorics

speaking of combinatorics uh what is it what do you find

uh what is it what do you find

uh what is it what do you find interesting what do you find beautiful

interesting what do you find beautiful

interesting what do you find beautiful about combinatorics so combinatorics to

about combinatorics so combinatorics to

about combinatorics so combinatorics to me

me

me is is the study of things where

is is the study of things where

is is the study of things where they might be more finite and more

they might be more finite and more

they might be more finite and more discreet

discreet

discreet what i mean is like if i look at a

what i mean is like if i look at a

what i mean is like if i look at a network actually a lot of times the

network actually a lot of times the

network actually a lot of times the combinatorics will boil down to

combinatorics will boil down to

combinatorics will boil down to something and the combinatorics i think

something and the combinatorics i think

something and the combinatorics i think about might be something related to

about might be something related to

about might be something related to graphs or networks and they're very

graphs or networks and they're very

graphs or networks and they're very discreet because if you have a node

discreet because if you have a node

discreet because if you have a node it's not that you have point seven of a

it's not that you have point seven of a

it's not that you have point seven of a node

node

node and point three of a node over there

and point three of a node over there

and point three of a node over there it's like you got one node and then you

it's like you got one node and then you

it's like you got one node and then you jump one step to go to the next node

jump one step to go to the next node

jump one step to go to the next node so that that notion is different from

so that that notion is different from

so that that notion is different from say calculus which is very

say calculus which is very

say calculus which is very uh continuous where you go and say i

uh continuous where you go and say i

uh continuous where you go and say i have this

have this

have this speed which is changing over time and

speed which is changing over time and

speed which is changing over time and now what's the distance i've traveled

now what's the distance i've traveled

now what's the distance i've traveled that's the notion of an integral

that's the notion of an integral

that's the notion of an integral where you have to think of subdividing

where you have to think of subdividing

where you have to think of subdividing time into very very small pieces

time into very very small pieces

time into very very small pieces so the kinds of things that you do when

so the kinds of things that you do when

so the kinds of things that you do when you reason about these

you reason about these

you reason about these finite discrete structures often might

finite discrete structures often might

finite discrete structures often might be iterative algorithmic inductive

be iterative algorithmic inductive

be iterative algorithmic inductive these are ideas where i go from one step

these are ideas where i go from one step

these are ideas where i go from one step to the next step and so on and make

to the next step and so on and make

to the next step and so on and make progress

progress

progress i guess i actually personally like all

i guess i actually personally like all

i guess i actually personally like all kinds of math

kinds of math

kinds of math my area of research just ended up in

my area of research just ended up in

my area of research just ended up in here because

here because

here because i met a really interesting phd advisor

i met a really interesting phd advisor

i met a really interesting phd advisor potential that's

potential that's

potential that's actually that's honestly the reason i

actually that's honestly the reason i

actually that's honestly the reason i went into that direction i met a really

went into that direction i met a really

went into that direction i met a really interesting guy

interesting guy

interesting guy he seemed like he did good stuff

he seemed like he did good stuff

he seemed like he did good stuff interesting stuff and he looked like he

interesting stuff and he looked like he

interesting stuff and he looked like he cared about students

cared about students

cared about students and i said let me just go and learn

and i said let me just go and learn

and i said let me just go and learn whatever you do even though

whatever you do even though

whatever you do even though my prior practice and preparation before

my prior practice and preparation before

my prior practice and preparation before my phd was not combinatorics but

my phd was not combinatorics but

my phd was not combinatorics but analysis

analysis

analysis the continuous stuff the the annoying

the continuous stuff the the annoying

the continuous stuff the the annoying thing about

thing about

thing about combinatorics and discrete stuff

combinatorics and discrete stuff

combinatorics and discrete stuff is uh it's often uh really difficult to

is uh it's often uh really difficult to

is uh it's often uh really difficult to solve

solve

solve uh from a uh sort of uh uh running time

uh from a uh sort of uh uh running time

uh from a uh sort of uh uh running time complexity perspective

complexity perspective

complexity perspective is there could you speak to the idea of

is there could you speak to the idea of

is there could you speak to the idea of complexity analysis of problems do you

complexity analysis of problems do you

complexity analysis of problems do you find it useful to find it interesting

find it useful to find it interesting

find it useful to find it interesting do you do you find that lens of studying

do you do you find that lens of studying

do you do you find that lens of studying the difficulty

the difficulty

the difficulty of how difficult the computer science

of how difficult the computer science

of how difficult the computer science problem is

problem is

problem is a useful lens onto the world oh very

a useful lens onto the world oh very

a useful lens onto the world oh very much so

much so

much so because um if you want to make something

because um if you want to make something

because um if you want to make something practical which has large numbers of

practical which has large numbers of

practical which has large numbers of people using it

people using it

people using it the computational complexity to me is

the computational complexity to me is

the computational complexity to me is almost question one

almost question one

almost question one and that's again that's at the origin of

and that's again that's at the origin of

and that's again that's at the origin of when we started doing this stuff with

when we started doing this stuff with

when we started doing this stuff with disease control

disease control

disease control from the very beginning the deep

from the very beginning the deep

from the very beginning the deep questions that were running through my

questions that were running through my

questions that were running through my mind were

mind were

mind were would we be able to support a large

would we be able to support a large

would we be able to support a large population

population

population with only one server and if the answer

with only one server and if the answer

with only one server and if the answer is no

is no

is no we can't start because i don't have

we can't start because i don't have

we can't start because i don't have enough money

enough money

enough money yeah and there the question is very much

yeah and there the question is very much

yeah and there the question is very much you know linear time versus

you know linear time versus

you know linear time versus anything uh

anything uh

anything uh anything slower than linear time um it's

anything slower than linear time um it's

anything slower than linear time um it's a very specific thing you have a bunch

a very specific thing you have a bunch

a very specific thing you have a bunch of really interesting papers if i could

of really interesting papers if i could

of really interesting papers if i could ask

ask

ask maybe we could pull out some cool

maybe we could pull out some cool

maybe we could pull out some cool insights at the high level

insights at the high level

insights at the high level can you describe the data structure of a

can you describe the data structure of a

can you describe the data structure of a voting tree and

voting tree and

voting tree and what are some interesting results on it

what are some interesting results on it

what are some interesting results on it you have a paper that i noticed on it

you have a paper that i noticed on it

you have a paper that i noticed on it yeah so this is an example of i guess

yeah so this is an example of i guess

yeah so this is an example of i guess um how in math we might say here's an

um how in math we might say here's an

um how in math we might say here's an interesting kind of a question

interesting kind of a question

interesting kind of a question that we just can't seem to understand

that we just can't seem to understand

that we just can't seem to understand enough about

enough about

enough about maybe there's something else going on

maybe there's something else going on

maybe there's something else going on here and the way to describe this is

here and the way to describe this is

here and the way to describe this is you could imagine trying to hold

you could imagine trying to hold

you could imagine trying to hold elections where

elections where

elections where if you have only two candidates that's

if you have only two candidates that's

if you have only two candidates that's kind of easy you just run them against

kind of easy you just run them against

kind of easy you just run them against each other and see who gets more votes

each other and see who gets more votes

each other and see who gets more votes but as you know once you have more

but as you know once you have more

but as you know once you have more candidates it's very difficult to decide

candidates it's very difficult to decide

candidates it's very difficult to decide who wins the election

who wins the election

who wins the election and there's an entire like voting theory

and there's an entire like voting theory

and there's an entire like voting theory around this

around this

around this so a a theoretical question became

so a a theoretical question became

so a a theoretical question became what if you made a like a system of

what if you made a like a system of

what if you made a like a system of runoffs like a system of heads uh

runoffs like a system of heads uh

runoffs like a system of heads uh head-to-head contests

head-to-head contests

head-to-head contests which you structure like a tree almost

which you structure like a tree almost

which you structure like a tree almost looking like a circuit

looking like a circuit

looking like a circuit i'm using that way of thinking because

i'm using that way of thinking because

i'm using that way of thinking because it's sort of like a in

it's sort of like a in

it's sort of like a in electrical engineering or computer

electrical engineering or computer

electrical engineering or computer science you might imagine having a bunch

science you might imagine having a bunch

science you might imagine having a bunch of

of

of leads that carry signal which are going

leads that carry signal which are going

leads that carry signal which are going through and gates and or gains and

through and gates and or gains and

through and gates and or gains and whatnot and you've managed to compute

whatnot and you've managed to compute

whatnot and you've managed to compute beautiful things

beautiful things

beautiful things this is just from a purely abstract

this is just from a purely abstract

this is just from a purely abstract point of view what if the inputs are

point of view what if the inputs are

point of view what if the inputs are candidates

candidates

candidates and for every two candidates it is known

and for every two candidates it is known

and for every two candidates it is known which of the candidates is more popular

which of the candidates is more popular

which of the candidates is more popular than the other

than the other

than the other now can you build some kind of a circuit

now can you build some kind of a circuit

now can you build some kind of a circuit board which says

board which says

board which says first candidate number four will play

first candidate number four will play

first candidate number four will play against five and see who wins

against five and see who wins

against five and see who wins and so on okay so now what would be a

and so on okay so now what would be a

and so on okay so now what would be a nice

nice

nice outcome right this is a general question

outcome right this is a general question

outcome right this is a general question of could i make a big circuit board to

of could i make a big circuit board to

of could i make a big circuit board to feed an election into

feed an election into

feed an election into like maybe one nice outcome would be

like maybe one nice outcome would be

like maybe one nice outcome would be whoever wins at least

whoever wins at least

whoever wins at least is preferred over a lot of people yes

is preferred over a lot of people yes

is preferred over a lot of people yes so for example if you ran in 1024

so for example if you ran in 1024

so for example if you ran in 1024 candidates

candidates

candidates ideally we would like a guarantee that

ideally we would like a guarantee that

ideally we would like a guarantee that says that the winner

says that the winner

says that the winner beats a lot of people actually in any

beats a lot of people actually in any

beats a lot of people actually in any uh system where there are 1024

uh system where there are 1024

uh system where there are 1024 candidates there's always a candidate

candidates there's always a candidate

candidates there's always a candidate who beats at least 512

who beats at least 512

who beats at least 512 of the others this is a mathematical

of the others this is a mathematical

of the others this is a mathematical fact that there's actually always a

fact that there's actually always a

fact that there's actually always a person who beats at least half

person who beats at least half

person who beats at least half of the other people i'm trying to

of the other people i'm trying to

of the other people i'm trying to make sense of that mathematical fact is

make sense of that mathematical fact is

make sense of that mathematical fact is this supposed to be obvious

this supposed to be obvious

this supposed to be obvious uh no but i can explain it no no i can't

uh no but i can explain it no no i can't

uh no but i can explain it no no i can't the way it works is that think of it

the way it works is that think of it

the way it works is that think of it this way

this way

this way every time i i think imagine i have all

every time i i think imagine i have all

every time i i think imagine i have all these candidates and everyone is

these candidates and everyone is

these candidates and everyone is competing is everyone is like compared

competing is everyone is like compared

competing is everyone is like compared with everyone else at some point

with everyone else at some point

with everyone else at some point well think of it this way whenever

well think of it this way whenever

well think of it this way whenever there's a comparison

there's a comparison

there's a comparison somebody gets a point that's the one who

somebody gets a point that's the one who

somebody gets a point that's the one who is better than the other one my claim is

is better than the other one my claim is

is better than the other one my claim is there's somebody whose

there's somebody whose

there's somebody whose score is at least half of how many other

score is at least half of how many other

score is at least half of how many other people there are

people there are

people there are yeah i'm just trying to like my

yeah i'm just trying to like my

yeah i'm just trying to like my intuition is very close to that being

intuition is very close to that being

intuition is very close to that being true but it's beautiful

true but it's beautiful

true but it's beautiful i didn't at first that's not an obvious

i didn't at first that's not an obvious

i didn't at first that's not an obvious fact

fact

fact no it's not and it's it feels like a

no it's not and it's it feels like a

no it's not and it's it feels like a beautiful fact well let me explain it

beautiful fact well let me explain it

beautiful fact well let me explain it this way

this way

this way imagine that for every uh match

imagine that for every uh match

imagine that for every uh match you didn't give one point but you gave

you didn't give one point but you gave

you didn't give one point but you gave two points

two points

two points you gave one point to each person now

you gave one point to each person now

you gave one point to each person now that's not what we're really doing we

that's not what we're really doing we

that's not what we're really doing we really want to give one point to the

really want to give one point to the

really want to give one point to the winner of the match

winner of the match

winner of the match but instead we'll just give two if you

but instead we'll just give two if you

but instead we'll just give two if you gave two points to everyone

gave two points to everyone

gave two points to everyone on every matchup actually everyone has

on every matchup actually everyone has

on every matchup actually everyone has the same number of points

the same number of points

the same number of points and the number of points they get is how

and the number of points they get is how

and the number of points they get is how many other people there are

many other people there are

many other people there are does that sort of make sense i'm just

does that sort of make sense i'm just

does that sort of make sense i'm just like saying no no everything everything

like saying no no everything everything

like saying no no everything everything is same makes perfect

is same makes perfect

is same makes perfect okay so the point is if for every

okay so the point is if for every

okay so the point is if for every comparison between two people

comparison between two people

comparison between two people which i'm doing for every two people i

which i'm doing for every two people i

which i'm doing for every two people i gave one point to each person

gave one point to each person

gave one point to each person your score everyone's score is the same

your score everyone's score is the same

your score everyone's score is the same it's how many other people there are yes

it's how many other people there are yes

it's how many other people there are yes now we only make one change for each

now we only make one change for each

now we only make one change for each match up

match up

match up you give one point only to the winner so

you give one point only to the winner so

you give one point only to the winner so we're awarding half the points

we're awarding half the points

we're awarding half the points so now the deal is if in the original

so now the deal is if in the original

so now the deal is if in the original situation

situation

situation everyone's score was equal which is how

everyone's score was equal which is how

everyone's score was equal which is how many other people there are

many other people there are

many other people there are now there's only half the number of

now there's only half the number of

now there's only half the number of points to go around

points to go around

points to go around so what ends up happening is that

so what ends up happening is that

so what ends up happening is that there's always going to be like the

there's always going to be like the

there's always going to be like the average number of points per person

average number of points per person

average number of points per person is going to be half of how many other

is going to be half of how many other

is going to be half of how many other people there are and somebody is going

people there are and somebody is going

people there are and somebody is going to be above

to be above

to be above somebody's going to be at least average

somebody's going to be at least average

somebody's going to be at least average yeah this is this notion of expected

yeah this is this notion of expected

yeah this is this notion of expected value

value

value that if i have a random variable which

that if i have a random variable which

that if i have a random variable which has an expected value

has an expected value

has an expected value there's going to be some possibility in

there's going to be some possibility in

there's going to be some possibility in the probability space

the probability space

the probability space where you're at least as big as the

where you're at least as big as the

where you're at least as big as the expected yeah when you describe it like

expected yeah when you describe it like

expected yeah when you describe it like that it's obvious

that it's obvious

that it's obvious but when you're first saying in this

but when you're first saying in this

but when you're first saying in this little circuit that there's going to be

little circuit that there's going to be

little circuit that there's going to be one

one

one candidate better than uh than half

candidate better than uh than half

candidate better than uh than half that's not obvious yeah that's funny

that's not obvious yeah that's funny

that's not obvious yeah that's funny math this is nice uh okay so do you have

math this is nice uh okay so do you have

math this is nice uh okay so do you have this but

this but

this but ultimately you want you're trying to

ultimately you want you're trying to

ultimately you want you're trying to with the voting tree

with the voting tree

with the voting tree i don't know if you're trying this but

i don't know if you're trying this but

i don't know if you're trying this but uh to have a circuit that's

uh to have a circuit that's

uh to have a circuit that's that's like compressed that's small well

that's like compressed that's small well

that's like compressed that's small well that achieves the the achieves the

that achieves the the achieves the

that achieves the the achieves the the same kind of um i mean the smaller

the same kind of um i mean the smaller

the same kind of um i mean the smaller it is

it is

it is the if we look at practically speaking

the if we look at practically speaking

the if we look at practically speaking the the lower the cost of running the

the the lower the cost of running the

the the lower the cost of running the election

election

election of running through of computing the

of running through of computing the

of running through of computing the circuit that is true

circuit that is true

circuit that is true but actually at this point the the

but actually at this point the the

but actually at this point the the reason the question was interesting

reason the question was interesting

reason the question was interesting yes is because the there was no good

yes is because the there was no good

yes is because the there was no good guarantee

guarantee

guarantee that the winner of that circuit would

that the winner of that circuit would

that the winner of that circuit would have

have

have like have beaten a lot of people let me

like have beaten a lot of people let me

like have beaten a lot of people let me give an example the best known circuit

give an example the best known circuit

give an example the best known circuit when we started thinking about this

when we started thinking about this

when we started thinking about this was the circuit called candidate one

was the circuit called candidate one

was the circuit called candidate one plays against candidate two

plays against candidate two

plays against candidate two candidate three plays against four and

candidate three plays against four and

candidate three plays against four and then the winners play against each other

then the winners play against each other

then the winners play against each other and then by the way five plays against

and then by the way five plays against

and then by the way five plays against six seven against eight

six seven against eight

six seven against eight the winners play against each other you

the winners play against each other you

the winners play against each other you understand it's like a giant binary tree

understand it's like a giant binary tree

understand it's like a giant binary tree where yeah the binary like a balanced

where yeah the binary like a balanced

where yeah the binary like a balanced binary tree

binary tree

binary tree okay it's a balanced binary tree one two

okay it's a balanced binary tree one two

okay it's a balanced binary tree one two three four up two thousand twenty four

three four up two thousand twenty four

three four up two thousand twenty four everyone going up to find the winner

everyone going up to find the winner

everyone going up to find the winner beautiful well you know what

beautiful well you know what

beautiful well you know what there's a system in the world where it

there's a system in the world where it

there's a system in the world where it could just be

could just be

could just be that there's a candidate called number

that there's a candidate called number

that there's a candidate called number one that just beats

one that just beats

one that just beats like 10 other people just the 10 that

like 10 other people just the 10 that

like 10 other people just the 10 that they need to be

they need to be

they need to be on their way up and they lose to

on their way up and they lose to

on their way up and they lose to everyone else

everyone else

everyone else but somehow they would get all the way

but somehow they would get all the way

but somehow they would get all the way up yes my point is

up yes my point is

up yes my point is it is possible to outsmart

it is possible to outsmart

it is possible to outsmart that circuit in one

that circuit in one

that circuit in one weird way of the world which makes that

weird way of the world which makes that

weird way of the world which makes that circuit a bad one because you want to

circuit a bad one because you want to

circuit a bad one because you want to say i will use this circuit for all

say i will use this circuit for all

say i will use this circuit for all elections

elections

elections and you might have a system of inputs

and you might have a system of inputs

and you might have a system of inputs that go in there

that go in there

that go in there where the winner only beat 10 other

where the winner only beat 10 other

where the winner only beat 10 other people which is the people they had to

people which is the people they had to

people which is the people they had to beat on the way up

beat on the way up

beat on the way up so you want to have a circuit where

so you want to have a circuit where

so you want to have a circuit where there's as many like the final result

there's as many like the final result

there's as many like the final result is as strong as possible yes

is as strong as possible yes

is as strong as possible yes and so what what ideas do you have for

and so what what ideas do you have for

and so what what ideas do you have for that

that

that so um we actually only managed to

so um we actually only managed to

so um we actually only managed to improve it to square root of n

improve it to square root of n

improve it to square root of n so if n is the number of vertices n over

so if n is the number of vertices n over

so if n is the number of vertices n over two would be the ideal

two would be the ideal

two would be the ideal we got it to and we got the square root

we got it to and we got the square root

we got it to and we got the square root of n versus

of n versus

of n versus log base two yeah exactly yeah

log base two yeah exactly yeah

log base two yeah exactly yeah which is well that is happening it could

which is well that is happening it could

which is well that is happening it could be a lot

be a lot

be a lot yeah it could be a big improvement so

yeah it could be a big improvement so

yeah it could be a big improvement so that's uh okay cool

that's uh okay cool

that's uh okay cool is there something you can say with

is there something you can say with

is there something you can say with words about what

words about what

words about what kind of circuit what that looks like i

kind of circuit what that looks like i

kind of circuit what that looks like i can give an

can give an

can give an idea of one of the tools inside yeah but

idea of one of the tools inside yeah but

idea of one of the tools inside yeah but the actual execution ends up being more

the actual execution ends up being more

the actual execution ends up being more complicated

complicated

complicated but one of the widgets inside this is

but one of the widgets inside this is

but one of the widgets inside this is building a system where you have like a

building a system where you have like a

building a system where you have like a candidate

candidate

candidate who plays like the one part of the whole

who plays like the one part of the whole

who plays like the one part of the whole huge huge tree is that

huge huge tree is that

huge huge tree is that that same candidate let's column seven

that same candidate let's column seven

that same candidate let's column seven seven plays against

seven plays against

seven plays against somebody let's let's pick up some

somebody let's let's pick up some

somebody let's let's pick up some numbers let's call the others like

numbers let's call the others like

numbers let's call the others like letters so seven plays against a

letters so seven plays against a

letters so seven plays against a seven is also going to play against b

seven is also going to play against b

seven is also going to play against b separately and the winners of each of

separately and the winners of each of

separately and the winners of each of those will play each other

those will play each other

those will play each other by the way seven's also going to play c

by the way seven's also going to play c

by the way seven's also going to play c seven's going to play d

seven's going to play d

seven's going to play d and the winners are going to play each

and the winners are going to play each

and the winners are going to play each other and the winners are going to play

other and the winners are going to play

other and the winners are going to play each other we call this

each other we call this

each other we call this seven against all well seven against

seven against all well seven against

seven against all well seven against like everyone from a bunch of

like everyone from a bunch of

like everyone from a bunch of got it so there's some nice overlap

got it so there's some nice overlap

got it so there's some nice overlap between the matchups

between the matchups

between the matchups yeah that somehow has a nice feature to

yeah that somehow has a nice feature to

yeah that somehow has a nice feature to it yes and i can tell you the nice

it yes and i can tell you the nice

it yes and i can tell you the nice feature because if at the base of this

feature because if at the base of this

feature because if at the base of this giant tree

giant tree

giant tree at the base of this giant circuit like

at the base of this giant circuit like

at the base of this giant circuit like this is a widget you rebuild the things

this is a widget you rebuild the things

this is a widget you rebuild the things out of widgets so i'm just describing

out of widgets so i'm just describing

out of widgets so i'm just describing one widget

one widget

one widget but in the base of this widget you have

but in the base of this widget you have

but in the base of this widget you have lots of things which are seven against

lots of things which are seven against

lots of things which are seven against someone seven against someone seven

someone seven against someone seven

someone seven against someone seven against someone in fact

against someone in fact

against someone in fact every match up at the bottom is seven

every match up at the bottom is seven

every match up at the bottom is seven against someone

against someone

against someone what that means is

what that means is

what that means is if 7 actually beat everyone they were

if 7 actually beat everyone they were

if 7 actually beat everyone they were matched up against well 7 would rise to

matched up against well 7 would rise to

matched up against well 7 would rise to the top

the top

the top so one possibility is if you see a 7

so one possibility is if you see a 7

so one possibility is if you see a 7 emerge from the top

emerge from the top

emerge from the top you know that 7 actually beat every one

you know that 7 actually beat every one

you know that 7 actually beat every one they were against

they were against

they were against on the other hand if anyone else is on

on the other hand if anyone else is on

on the other hand if anyone else is on top let's call it

top let's call it

top let's call it f if f is on top how did f get there

f if f is on top how did f get there

f if f is on top how did f get there well f beats seven on the way at the

well f beats seven on the way at the

well f beats seven on the way at the beginning

beginning

beginning so the point is the outcome of this

so the point is the outcome of this

so the point is the outcome of this circuit has a certain property

circuit has a certain property

circuit has a certain property if you see a seven you know that the

if you see a seven you know that the

if you see a seven you know that the seven actually be the brazilian people

seven actually be the brazilian people

seven actually be the brazilian people if you see anyone else at least you know

if you see anyone else at least you know

if you see anyone else at least you know they beat seven

they beat seven

they beat seven yeah then you can prove that it has a

yeah then you can prove that it has a

yeah then you can prove that it has a nice property that's really interesting

nice property that's really interesting

nice property that's really interesting is there something you can say

is there something you can say

is there something you can say perhaps going completely outside of what

perhaps going completely outside of what

perhaps going completely outside of what we're talking about is

we're talking about is

we're talking about is uh how we may um

uh how we may um

uh how we may um have mathematical ideas of improving

have mathematical ideas of improving

have mathematical ideas of improving the electoral process that one no no i

the electoral process that one no no i

the electoral process that one no no i can't give you that one

can't give you that one

can't give you that one i mean is there like do you ever see it

i mean is there like do you ever see it

i mean is there like do you ever see it as um

as um

as um as as there be do you see is there being

as as there be do you see is there being

as as there be do you see is there being a lot of opportunities

a lot of opportunities

a lot of opportunities for improving how we vote uh

for improving how we vote uh

for improving how we vote uh like from your i i don't know if you saw

like from your i i don't know if you saw

like from your i i don't know if you saw parallels but

parallels but

parallels but you know it seems like if this actually

you know it seems like if this actually

you know it seems like if this actually kind of maps to your

kind of maps to your

kind of maps to your sort of covid work which is there's a

sort of covid work which is there's a

sort of covid work which is there's a network effect

network effect

network effect right it seems like we should be able to

right it seems like we should be able to

right it seems like we should be able to apply similar kind of effects

apply similar kind of effects

apply similar kind of effects of how we decide other things in our

of how we decide other things in our

of how we decide other things in our lives

lives

lives and and one of the big decisions we make

and and one of the big decisions we make

and and one of the big decisions we make is who represents us in government

is who represents us in government

is who represents us in government do you ever think about like

do you ever think about like

do you ever think about like mathematically about those kinds of

mathematically about those kinds of

mathematically about those kinds of systems

systems

systems i think a little bit about those because

i think a little bit about those because

i think a little bit about those because where i went to college

where i went to college

where i went to college the way we voted for student government

the way we voted for student government

the way we voted for student government was based on this

was based on this

was based on this is it called ranked choice where you're

is it called ranked choice where you're

is it called ranked choice where you're eliminated you eliminate the bottom

eliminated you eliminate the bottom

eliminated you eliminate the bottom and there's runoff elections so so i

and there's runoff elections so so i

and there's runoff elections so so i that was the first time i ever saw that

that was the first time i ever saw that

that was the first time i ever saw that and i thought that made sense

and i thought that made sense

and i thought that made sense yeah the only problem is it doesn't seem

yeah the only problem is it doesn't seem

yeah the only problem is it doesn't seem so easy to get something that makes

so easy to get something that makes

so easy to get something that makes sense adopted as the new voting system

sense adopted as the new voting system

sense adopted as the new voting system that's a whole nother there's that's not

that's a whole nother there's that's not

that's a whole nother there's that's not a math solution that's uh

a math solution that's uh

a math solution that's uh well it's math and sentences game

well it's math and sentences game

well it's math and sentences game theories you have to come up with

theories you have to come up with

theories you have to come up with incentive it's mechanism design you have

incentive it's mechanism design you have

incentive it's mechanism design you have to figure out how to

to figure out how to

to figure out how to trick us despite our basic human nature

trick us despite our basic human nature

trick us despite our basic human nature uh to adopt uh solutions that are better

uh to adopt uh solutions that are better

uh to adopt uh solutions that are better yeah that's a whole other conversation i

yeah that's a whole other conversation i

yeah that's a whole other conversation i think um

think um

think um can you just because it sounded really

can you just because it sounded really

can you just because it sounded really cool uh talk a little bit about

cool uh talk a little bit about

cool uh talk a little bit about stochastic coalescence

stochastic coalescence

stochastic coalescence and uh you have a paper on showing that

and uh you have a paper on showing that

and uh you have a paper on showing that something you describe what it is but i

something you describe what it is but i

something you describe what it is but i guess it's a super linear

guess it's a super linear

guess it's a super linear super logarithmic time and you came up

super logarithmic time and you came up

super logarithmic time and you came up with some kind of trick to make it

with some kind of trick to make it

with some kind of trick to make it faster

faster

faster just can you just talk about it a little

just can you just talk about it a little

just can you just talk about it a little bit yeah so this was something which

bit yeah so this was something which

bit yeah so this was something which came up

came up

came up when i was at microsoft research for a

when i was at microsoft research for a

when i was at microsoft research for a summer and that i'm putting that context

summer and that i'm putting that context

summer and that i'm putting that context because that shows that it has some

because that shows that it has some

because that shows that it has some practical motivation at some point

practical motivation at some point

practical motivation at some point actually i think it still it doesn't

actually i think it still it doesn't

actually i think it still it doesn't need to yeah it doesn't need to it could

need to yeah it doesn't need to it could

need to yeah it doesn't need to it could be beautiful and it's all right yeah

be beautiful and it's all right yeah

be beautiful and it's all right yeah so the easiest way to describe this is

so the easiest way to describe this is

so the easiest way to describe this is suppose you got like a big crowd of

suppose you got like a big crowd of

suppose you got like a big crowd of people

people

people and everybody knows how many hours of

and everybody knows how many hours of

and everybody knows how many hours of sleep they got last night

sleep they got last night

sleep they got last night and you want to know how many total

and you want to know how many total

and you want to know how many total hours of sleep were gotten by this big

hours of sleep were gotten by this big

hours of sleep were gotten by this big big crowd of people at the beginning you

big crowd of people at the beginning you

big crowd of people at the beginning you might say that sounds like a linear time

might say that sounds like a linear time

might say that sounds like a linear time algorithm

algorithm

algorithm of saying hey you how many hours you got

of saying hey you how many hours you got

of saying hey you how many hours you got how many you got how many you got add

how many you got how many you got add

how many you got how many you got add add add yes

add add yes

add add yes but there's a way to do this if you

but there's a way to do this if you

but there's a way to do this if you remember that there are people and they

remember that there are people and they

remember that there are people and they presumably know how to add

presumably know how to add

presumably know how to add you could make a distributed algorithm

you could make a distributed algorithm

you could make a distributed algorithm to make this happen

to make this happen

to make this happen for example while we're thinking of

for example while we're thinking of

for example while we're thinking of these trees imagine you had 1024 people

these trees imagine you had 1024 people

these trees imagine you had 1024 people if you could just say hey person number

if you could just say hey person number

if you could just say hey person number one and person number two you will add

one and person number two you will add

one and person number two you will add your hours of sleep

your hours of sleep

your hours of sleep person number two will go away and

person number two will go away and

person number two will go away and person number one is going to remember

person number one is going to remember

person number one is going to remember the sum

the sum

the sum person three and four add up and person

person three and four add up and person

person three and four add up and person three takes charge of remembering it

three takes charge of remembering it

three takes charge of remembering it person four goes away now this like

person four goes away now this like

person four goes away now this like person one knows the sum of these two

person one knows the sum of these two

person one knows the sum of these two person three knows some of those two

person three knows some of those two

person three knows some of those two they talk

they talk

they talk you see what i mean it's like you're

you see what i mean it's like you're

you see what i mean it's like you're going up this tree

going up this tree

going up this tree same tree that we've talked about

same tree that we've talked about

same tree that we've talked about earlier built up a tree from the bottom

earlier built up a tree from the bottom

earlier built up a tree from the bottom up

up

up yeah build a retreat from the bottom up

yeah build a retreat from the bottom up

yeah build a retreat from the bottom up and the beautiful thing is

and the beautiful thing is

and the beautiful thing is since everyone's doing stuff in parallel

since everyone's doing stuff in parallel

since everyone's doing stuff in parallel the amount of time it takes

the amount of time it takes

the amount of time it takes to get the total sum is actually just

to get the total sum is actually just

to get the total sum is actually just the number of layers in the tree

the number of layers in the tree

the number of layers in the tree which is 10. so now that's logarithmic

which is 10. so now that's logarithmic

which is 10. so now that's logarithmic time to add up the number of hours

time to add up the number of hours

time to add up the number of hours that people slept today sounds fantastic

that people slept today sounds fantastic

that people slept today sounds fantastic yeah

yeah

yeah there's only one problem how do you

there's only one problem how do you

there's only one problem how do you decide who's person number one and

decide who's person number one and

decide who's person number one and person number two

person number two

person number two yes so if for example you just went out

yes so if for example you just went out

yes so if for example you just went out into the downtown and said hey get these

into the downtown and said hey get these

into the downtown and said hey get these thousand people

thousand people

thousand people go well if you're gonna go and say and

go well if you're gonna go and say and

go well if you're gonna go and say and by the way you're one and you're two and

by the way you're one and you're two and

by the way you're one and you're two and you're three that's linear time

you're three that's linear time

you're three that's linear time yes that's cheating so now the question

yes that's cheating so now the question

yes that's cheating so now the question is how to do this in a distributed way

is how to do this in a distributed way

is how to do this in a distributed way and there were some people who proposed

and there were some people who proposed

and there were some people who proposed a very elegant algorithm

a very elegant algorithm

a very elegant algorithm and they wanted to analyze it that's so

and they wanted to analyze it that's so

and they wanted to analyze it that's so i came in onto the analyze side

i came in onto the analyze side

i came in onto the analyze side but the elegant algorithm was like this

but the elegant algorithm was like this

but the elegant algorithm was like this it was like well

it was like well

it was like well we don't actually know what this big nut

we don't actually know what this big nut

we don't actually know what this big nut big tree is there isn't any big tree

big tree is there isn't any big tree

big tree is there isn't any big tree so what's going to happen is first

so what's going to happen is first

so what's going to happen is first everyone is going to

everyone is going to

everyone is going to decide right now oh what one important

decide right now oh what one important

decide right now oh what one important thing

thing

thing everyone is going to at the very

everyone is going to at the very

everyone is going to at the very beginning of the whole

beginning of the whole

beginning of the whole game uh they will have delegated

game uh they will have delegated

game uh they will have delegated responsibility to themselves

responsibility to themselves

responsibility to themselves as the one who knows the sum so far

as the one who knows the sum so far

as the one who knows the sum so far so so the point is there's there's going

so so the point is there's there's going

so so the point is there's there's going to be people are all going to have like

to be people are all going to have like

to be people are all going to have like a pointer which says

a pointer which says

a pointer which says uh you are the one who knows my you

uh you are the one who knows my you

uh you are the one who knows my you you've taken care of my ticket my number

you've taken care of my ticket my number

you've taken care of my ticket my number yeah okay they select the representative

yeah okay they select the representative

yeah okay they select the representative for this

for this

for this particular piece of knowledge and at the

particular piece of knowledge and at the

particular piece of knowledge and at the very beginning you're your own

very beginning you're your own

very beginning you're your own representative

representative

representative the thing has to start simple right so

the thing has to start simple right so

the thing has to start simple right so at the beginning you're pointing to

at the beginning you're pointing to

at the beginning you're pointing to yourself you've got it

yourself you've got it

yourself you've got it yep and and how the way this works is

yep and and how the way this works is

yep and and how the way this works is that at every time step someone blares a

that at every time step someone blares a

that at every time step someone blares a ding dong on the on the on the

ding dong on the on the on the

ding dong on the on the on the tongue clock or whatever yes and each

tongue clock or whatever yes and each

tongue clock or whatever yes and each person flips a coin themselves to decide

person flips a coin themselves to decide

person flips a coin themselves to decide am i going to hunt for somebody to

am i going to hunt for somebody to

am i going to hunt for somebody to give my number to and let them represent

give my number to and let them represent

give my number to and let them represent me

me

me or am i going to sit here and wait for

or am i going to sit here and wait for

or am i going to sit here and wait for someone to come

someone to come

someone to come okay okay well they they flip their coin

okay okay well they they flip their coin

okay okay well they they flip their coin some of the people start asking other

some of the people start asking other

some of the people start asking other people saying hey i would like

people saying hey i would like

people saying hey i would like you to be um my representative here is

you to be um my representative here is

you to be um my representative here is my number

my number

my number but the problem is that there's limited

but the problem is that there's limited

but the problem is that there's limited bandwidth of the people who are getting

bandwidth of the people who are getting

bandwidth of the people who are getting asked it's like you can't

asked it's like you can't

asked it's like you can't get you can't go out to prom with five

get you can't go out to prom with five

get you can't go out to prom with five people this is not what we're doing

people this is not what we're doing

people this is not what we're doing we're adding numbers okay

we're adding numbers okay

we're adding numbers okay but you can only add one number yeah so

but you can only add one number yeah so

but you can only add one number yeah so the person who has suddenly gotten asked

the person who has suddenly gotten asked

the person who has suddenly gotten asked by all these people

by all these people

by all these people well they'll have to decide who they're

well they'll have to decide who they're

well they'll have to decide who they're going to take it from

going to take it from

going to take it from and they randomly just choose one when

and they randomly just choose one when

and they randomly just choose one when they randomly choose one all the others

they randomly choose one all the others

they randomly choose one all the others are rejected and they

are rejected and they

are rejected and they don't get to delegate anything in that

don't get to delegate anything in that

don't get to delegate anything in that round but now if

round but now if

round but now if this person has absorbed this one who

this person has absorbed this one who

this person has absorbed this one who said okay here

said okay here

said okay here you take charge of my number this person

you take charge of my number this person

you take charge of my number this person now updates their pointer

now updates their pointer

now updates their pointer you're you're in charge and this person

you're you're in charge and this person

you're you're in charge and this person adds the two numbers

adds the two numbers

adds the two numbers that was the first round in the next

that was the first round in the next

that was the first round in the next round

round

round when they do the coin flipping this

when they do the coin flipping this

when they do the coin flipping this person doesn't flip anymore because

person doesn't flip anymore because

person doesn't flip anymore because they're just delegating

they're just delegating

they're just delegating it's that anyone who has the pointers

it's that anyone who has the pointers

it's that anyone who has the pointers themselves that's a

themselves that's a

themselves that's a like a person who is in charge of some

like a person who is in charge of some

like a person who is in charge of some number of informations

number of informations

number of informations they flip the coin to decide should i

they flip the coin to decide should i

they flip the coin to decide should i find other people who are

find other people who are

find other people who are agents or should i wait for people to

agents or should i wait for people to

agents or should i wait for people to ask me

ask me

ask me yes brilliant this is somebody else's

yes brilliant this is somebody else's

yes brilliant this is somebody else's idea and and now the idea is okay if you

idea and and now the idea is okay if you

idea and and now the idea is okay if you just keep doing this process what ends

just keep doing this process what ends

just keep doing this process what ends up happening

up happening

up happening oh yeah oh and also by the way if you

oh yeah oh and also by the way if you

oh yeah oh and also by the way if you decide that you want to go reach out to

decide that you want to go reach out to

decide that you want to go reach out to other people here's the here's the

other people here's the here's the

other people here's the here's the here's the here's the catch

here's the here's the catch

here's the here's the catch when you're one of these agents saying

when you're one of these agents saying

when you're one of these agents saying okay i'm going to go look for someone

okay i'm going to go look for someone

okay i'm going to go look for someone you have no idea who in this crowd is an

you have no idea who in this crowd is an

you have no idea who in this crowd is an agent

agent

agent or somebody who delegated it to someone

or somebody who delegated it to someone

or somebody who delegated it to someone else you just pick a random person

else you just pick a random person

else you just pick a random person when you pick the random person if it

when you pick the random person if it

when you pick the random person if it lands on someone and the person says oh

lands on someone and the person says oh

lands on someone and the person says oh i i actually delegated it to someone

i i actually delegated it to someone

i i actually delegated it to someone then you

then you

then you you you follow up you walk through the

you you follow up you walk through the

you you follow up you walk through the delegation chat up delegation chain and

delegation chat up delegation chain and

delegation chat up delegation chain and you can do

you can do

you can do like path compression in the algorithm

like path compression in the algorithm

like path compression in the algorithm to make it so you don't consistently do

to make it so you don't consistently do

to make it so you don't consistently do lots of walking up

lots of walking up

lots of walking up but the bottom line is that what ends up

but the bottom line is that what ends up

but the bottom line is that what ends up happening is that

happening is that

happening is that you end up reaching out whenever you're

you end up reaching out whenever you're

you end up reaching out whenever you're one of the ones reaching out

one of the ones reaching out

one of the ones reaching out you can think of it as each agent is

you can think of it as each agent is

you can think of it as each agent is responsible for some number of people

responsible for some number of people

responsible for some number of people it's almost like they're the leader of a

it's almost like they're the leader of a

it's almost like they're the leader of a bunch as the process is evolving

bunch as the process is evolving

bunch as the process is evolving you have these lumps each lump has an

you have these lumps each lump has an

you have these lumps each lump has an agent and when the agent reaches out

agent and when the agent reaches out

agent and when the agent reaches out they reach out to another

they reach out to another

they reach out to another lump where the probability of them

lump where the probability of them

lump where the probability of them hitting that lump

hitting that lump

hitting that lump is proportional to the size of the lump

is proportional to the size of the lump

is proportional to the size of the lump yeah that is the one funny thing about

yeah that is the one funny thing about

yeah that is the one funny thing about this

this

this process this is not that they can reach

process this is not that they can reach

process this is not that they can reach out to a uniformly random lump

out to a uniformly random lump

out to a uniformly random lump where every lump has the same chance of

where every lump has the same chance of

where every lump has the same chance of going to yeah

going to yeah

going to yeah the bigger the lump is the less like

the bigger the lump is the less like

the bigger the lump is the less like the more likely it is that you end up

the more likely it is that you end up

the more likely it is that you end up reaching that lamp which is a problem

reaching that lamp which is a problem

reaching that lamp which is a problem let me explain why that's a problem

let me explain why that's a problem

let me explain why that's a problem because you see you're hoping that this

because you see you're hoping that this

because you see you're hoping that this has a small number of steps yeah but

has a small number of steps yeah but

has a small number of steps yeah but here's a bad situation that could happen

here's a bad situation that could happen

here's a bad situation that could happen imagine if you had like their end people

imagine if you had like their end people

imagine if you had like their end people that you're adding up

that you're adding up

that you're adding up imagine that you have exactly square

imagine that you have exactly square

imagine that you have exactly square root of n

root of n

root of n lumps left of which

lumps left of which

lumps left of which almost all of them are just one person

almost all of them are just one person

almost all of them are just one person who's still their own

who's still their own

who's still their own boss their own their own manager except

boss their own their own manager except

boss their own their own manager except one giant one giant one

one giant one giant one

one giant one giant one now what's going to happen is going to

now what's going to happen is going to

now what's going to happen is going to be a huge bottleneck because every round

be a huge bottleneck because every round

be a huge bottleneck because every round the giant one can only absorb one of the

the giant one can only absorb one of the

the giant one can only absorb one of the others

others

others yes and now you suddenly have time which

yes and now you suddenly have time which

yes and now you suddenly have time which is about square root of n

is about square root of n

is about square root of n the square root of n is chosen because

the square root of n is chosen because

the square root of n is chosen because that is one where the

that is one where the

that is one where the the lumps are such that um you really

the lumps are such that um you really

the lumps are such that um you really are limited by this large one

are limited by this large one

are limited by this large one slowly sucking up the rest of them so

slowly sucking up the rest of them so

slowly sucking up the rest of them so the the heart of the question became

the the heart of the question became

the the heart of the question became well but is that just so unusual that we

well but is that just so unusual that we

well but is that just so unusual that we don't that it doesn't usually happen

don't that it doesn't usually happen

don't that it doesn't usually happen because remember you start with everyone

because remember you start with everyone

because remember you start with everyone just being independent it's like a lot

just being independent it's like a lot

just being independent it's like a lot of lumps of size well how naturally do

of lumps of size well how naturally do

of lumps of size well how naturally do the big lumps emerge

the big lumps emerge

the big lumps emerge yes and so what that part of the proof

yes and so what that part of the proof

yes and so what that part of the proof was was showing that that was a joint

was was showing that that was a joint

was was showing that that was a joint work with al lubetsky

work with al lubetsky

work with al lubetsky that one was showing that actually

that one was showing that actually

that one was showing that actually in that thing the lumps do kind of get

in that thing the lumps do kind of get

in that thing the lumps do kind of get out of whack and so it's not

out of whack and so it's not

out of whack and so it's not the purely logarithmic number of steps

the purely logarithmic number of steps

the purely logarithmic number of steps but if you make one very slight change

but if you make one very slight change

but if you make one very slight change which is if you are one of the agents

which is if you are one of the agents

which is if you are one of the agents and you have just been propositioned

and you have just been propositioned

and you have just been propositioned possibly relayed along

possibly relayed along

possibly relayed along by a couple of different people if you

by a couple of different people if you

by a couple of different people if you just say don't take a random one

just say don't take a random one

just say don't take a random one but accept the smallest lump

that actually does enough to even

that actually does enough to even distribute the lump size

distribute the lump size

distribute the lump size yeah that's i mean yeah it's fascinating

yeah that's i mean yeah it's fascinating

yeah that's i mean yeah it's fascinating how would the distributed algorithms a

how would the distributed algorithms a

how would the distributed algorithms a little

little

little yes make all the difference in the world

yes make all the difference in the world

yes make all the difference in the world yeah

yeah

yeah actually by the way this does this back

actually by the way this does this back

actually by the way this does this back to our voting conversation this makes me

to our voting conversation this makes me

to our voting conversation this makes me think of like

think of like

think of like these networking systems are so

these networking systems are so

these networking systems are so fascinating to study

fascinating to study

fascinating to study they immediately spring to mind ideas of

they immediately spring to mind ideas of

they immediately spring to mind ideas of how to have

how to have

how to have representation like i maybe

representation like i maybe

representation like i maybe as opposed to me voting for a president

as opposed to me voting for a president

as opposed to me voting for a president i want to vote for for like uh

i want to vote for for like uh

i want to vote for for like uh for you paul to represent me maybe on a

for you paul to represent me maybe on a

for you paul to represent me maybe on a particular issue

particular issue

particular issue and then you'll delegate that further

and then you'll delegate that further

and then you'll delegate that further and then we naturally construct those

and then we naturally construct those

and then we naturally construct those kinds of networks

kinds of networks

kinds of networks because that that feels like i can have

because that that feels like i can have

because that that feels like i can have a good conversation with you and figure

a good conversation with you and figure

a good conversation with you and figure out that you know what you're doing and

out that you know what you're doing and

out that you know what you're doing and i can delegate it to you and

i can delegate it to you and

i can delegate it to you and in that way construct a representative

in that way construct a representative

in that way construct a representative government

government

government or representative decision maker that

or representative decision maker that

or representative decision maker that feels

feels

feels that feels really nice as opposed to

that feels really nice as opposed to

that feels really nice as opposed to like us

like us

like us like a tree of height one or something

like a tree of height one or something

like a tree of height one or something where it's like everybody's just

where it's like everybody's just

where it's like everybody's just um it feels like there's a lot of room

um it feels like there's a lot of room

um it feels like there's a lot of room for layers of representation to form

for layers of representation to form

for layers of representation to form organically from the bottom up

organically from the bottom up

organically from the bottom up i wonder if there are systems like that

i wonder if there are systems like that

i wonder if there are systems like that this is the cool thing about the

this is the cool thing about the

this is the cool thing about the internet

internet

internet and the digital space where we're so

and the digital space where we're so

and the digital space where we're so well connected just like with

well connected just like with

well connected just like with the novid app to to distribute

the novid app to to distribute

the novid app to to distribute information about the

information about the

information about the the the spread of the disease we can the

the the spread of the disease we can the

the the spread of the disease we can the same way

same way

same way in a distributed sense form anything

in a distributed sense form anything

in a distributed sense form anything like

like

like any kind of knowledge bases that are

any kind of knowledge bases that are

any kind of knowledge bases that are formed in a decentralized way and

formed in a decentralized way and

formed in a decentralized way and uh in a hierarchical way as opposed to

uh in a hierarchical way as opposed to

uh in a hierarchical way as opposed to sort of

sort of

sort of old way where there's no mechanism for

old way where there's no mechanism for

old way where there's no mechanism for large scale

large scale

large scale fast uh like distributed transactional

fast uh like distributed transactional

fast uh like distributed transactional information

information

information this is really interesting this is where

this is really interesting this is where

this is really interesting this is where almost like network graph theory

almost like network graph theory

almost like network graph theory becomes practical yeah most of that

becomes practical yeah most of that

becomes practical yeah most of that exciting work was done in the 20th

exciting work was done in the 20th

exciting work was done in the 20th century but most of the application will

century but most of the application will

century but most of the application will be in the 21st which is cool to think

be in the 21st which is cool to think

be in the 21st which is cool to think about

about

about uh let me ask the most ridiculous

uh let me ask the most ridiculous

uh let me ask the most ridiculous question you think p equals np wow

question you think p equals np wow

question you think p equals np wow i don't know i mean i would say

i i know there are enough people who

i i know there are enough people who have very strong interest in trying to

have very strong interest in trying to

have very strong interest in trying to show that it is i'm talking about

show that it is i'm talking about

show that it is i'm talking about government agencies

for security purposes for security

for security purposes for security purposes and most computer scientists

purposes and most computer scientists

purposes and most computer scientists which would say believe that p equals np

which would say believe that p equals np

which would say believe that p equals np uh my question almost like this is back

uh my question almost like this is back

uh my question almost like this is back to our aliens discussion you want to

to our aliens discussion you want to

to our aliens discussion you want to think outside the box

think outside the box

think outside the box the the low probability event

the the low probability event

the the low probability event what is the world what kind of

what is the world what kind of

what is the world what kind of discoveries would lead us to

discoveries would lead us to

discoveries would lead us to to to prove that p does not equal to np

to to prove that p does not equal to np

to to prove that p does not equal to np like there could be giant

like there could be giant

like there could be giant misunderstandings

misunderstandings

misunderstandings or gaps in our knowledge about computer

or gaps in our knowledge about computer

or gaps in our knowledge about computer science about theoretical computer

science about theoretical computer

science about theoretical computer science about computation

science about computation

science about computation which allow us to think like flatten all

which allow us to think like flatten all

which allow us to think like flatten all problems

problems

problems yeah so i don't know the answer to this

yeah so i don't know the answer to this

yeah so i don't know the answer to this question i think i think it's very

question i think i think it's very

question i think i think it's very interesting but i

interesting but i

interesting but i actually i know let's put it this way by

actually i know let's put it this way by

actually i know let's put it this way by being at carnegie mellon and being

being at carnegie mellon and being

being at carnegie mellon and being around the theoretical computer

around the theoretical computer

around the theoretical computer scientists

scientists

scientists i know enough about what i don't know

i know enough about what i don't know

i know enough about what i don't know what to say i'm wrong to be humble

what to say i'm wrong to be humble

what to say i'm wrong to be humble i'm the only person to answer this

i'm the only person to answer this

i'm the only person to answer this question yeah yeah

question yeah yeah

question yeah yeah it's a great one well scott aaronson

it's a great one well scott aaronson

it's a great one well scott aaronson who's now here ut

who's now here ut

who's now here ut austin he used to be at mit puts the

austin he used to be at mit puts the

austin he used to be at mit puts the probability of uh

probability of uh

probability of uh p and p not equals to np at three

p and p not equals to np at three

p and p not equals to np at three percent

percent

percent he put it's i you know i always love it

he put it's i you know i always love it

he put it's i you know i always love it when you ask

when you ask

when you ask it's very rare in science in in

it's very rare in science in in

it's very rare in science in in academics because you're

academics because you're

academics because you're because most folks are humble

because most folks are humble

because most folks are humble in in the face of the mystery the

in in the face of the mystery the

in in the face of the mystery the uncertainty of everything around us

uncertainty of everything around us

uncertainty of everything around us to have the the both the humor and the

to have the the both the humor and the

to have the the both the humor and the guts to say um

guts to say um

guts to say um like what are the chance that there's um

like what are the chance that there's um

like what are the chance that there's um aliens in our galaxy intelligent alien

aliens in our galaxy intelligent alien

aliens in our galaxy intelligent alien civilizations

civilizations

civilizations as opposed to saying i don't know it

as opposed to saying i don't know it

as opposed to saying i don't know it could be you know it could be zero it

could be you know it could be zero it

could be you know it could be zero it could be depending on the fact you're

could be depending on the fact you're

could be depending on the fact you're saying

saying

saying it's 2.5 percent there's something very

it's 2.5 percent there's something very

it's 2.5 percent there's something very pleasant about just having uh

pleasant about just having uh

pleasant about just having uh it's the it's the number thing um

it's the it's the number thing um

it's the it's the number thing um this power to the number it's just like

this power to the number it's just like

this power to the number it's just like 42 it's like why 40 i don't know but

42 it's like why 40 i don't know but

42 it's like why 40 i don't know but it's a powerful number

it's a powerful number

it's a powerful number and then everything this is the power of

and then everything this is the power of

and then everything this is the power of human psychology is once you have the

human psychology is once you have the

human psychology is once you have the number 42

it's not that the number has meaning but

it's not that the number has meaning but because

because

because it's placed in a book with humor around

it's placed in a book with humor around

it's placed in a book with humor around it

it

it it has the meme effect of actually

it has the meme effect of actually

it has the meme effect of actually creating reality i mean you could say

creating reality i mean you could say

creating reality i mean you could say that 42 has a strong contribution

that 42 has a strong contribution

that 42 has a strong contribution of helping us colonize mars because

of helping us colonize mars because

of helping us colonize mars because it created it gave the whatever

it created it gave the whatever

it created it gave the whatever existential crisis to many of us

existential crisis to many of us

existential crisis to many of us including elon musk when he was young

including elon musk when he was young

including elon musk when he was young you know reading a book like that and

you know reading a book like that and

you know reading a book like that and then like now 42 is not part of his

then like now 42 is not part of his

then like now 42 is not part of his humor

humor

humor he doesn't shut up about constantly

he doesn't shut up about constantly

he doesn't shut up about constantly joking about and that humor is spreading

joking about and that humor is spreading

joking about and that humor is spreading through our minds

through our minds

through our minds and somehow this like silly number just

and somehow this like silly number just

and somehow this like silly number just had an effect in that same way

had an effect in that same way

had an effect in that same way after scott told me like the three

after scott told me like the three

after scott told me like the three percent chance

percent chance

percent chance it's stuck in my head and i think it's

it's stuck in my head and i think it's

it's stuck in my head and i think it's been having a ripple effect in everybody

been having a ripple effect in everybody

been having a ripple effect in everybody else

else

else the believing that p is not equal to np

the believing that p is not equal to np

the believing that p is not equal to np scott almost as a joke saying it's three

scott almost as a joke saying it's three

scott almost as a joke saying it's three percent

percent

percent is make it's actually motivating a large

is make it's actually motivating a large

is make it's actually motivating a large number of researchers to work on it

number of researchers to work on it

number of researchers to work on it three percent is high

three percent is high

three percent is high it's very high because for the potential

it's very high because for the potential

it's very high because for the potential impact that that would happen

impact that that would happen

impact that that would happen but then three percent is not that high

but then three percent is not that high

but then three percent is not that high because it's only you know it's

because it's only you know it's

because it's only you know it's like we're not very good i feel like

like we're not very good i feel like

like we're not very good i feel like humans are only able to really think

humans are only able to really think

humans are only able to really think about like

about like

about like one percent 50 and we kind of

one percent 50 and we kind of

one percent 50 and we kind of i think a lot of people around three

i think a lot of people around three

i think a lot of people around three percent up to 50 percent

percent up to 50 percent

percent up to 50 percent like in our minds like three percent i

like in our minds like three percent i

like in our minds like three percent i think

think

think it could happen it could happen and it

it could happen it could happen and it

it could happen it could happen and it could happen is like yeah

could happen is like yeah

could happen is like yeah like half the time it'll probably happen

like half the time it'll probably happen

like half the time it'll probably happen so we're not very good at that that's

so we're not very good at that that's

so we're not very good at that that's that's the other thing with the pandemic

that's the other thing with the pandemic

that's the other thing with the pandemic is uh we're not the exponential growth

is uh we're not the exponential growth

is uh we're not the exponential growth that we also talked about offline uh is

that we also talked about offline uh is

that we also talked about offline uh is uh something that we can't quite intuit

uh something that we can't quite intuit

uh something that we can't quite intuit and that's something we probably should

and that's something we probably should

and that's something we probably should if we were to predict the future to

if we were to predict the future to

if we were to predict the future to anticipate the future and to understand

anticipate the future and to understand

anticipate the future and to understand how to create technologies that'll let

how to create technologies that'll let

how to create technologies that'll let us sort of control the future

us sort of control the future

us sort of control the future can i ask you for some recommendations

can i ask you for some recommendations

can i ask you for some recommendations uh maybe for books or movies

uh maybe for books or movies

uh maybe for books or movies in your life long ago

in your life long ago

in your life long ago when you were baby po or today

that uh you found insightful or you

that uh you found insightful or you learned

learned

learned you learned a lot from what you would

you learned a lot from what you would

you learned a lot from what you would recommend to others yeah

recommend to others yeah

recommend to others yeah so i think i don't necessarily have an

so i think i don't necessarily have an

so i think i don't necessarily have an exact name of these old things but

exact name of these old things but

exact name of these old things but i was generally inspired by stories

i was generally inspired by stories

i was generally inspired by stories true or fictional of

true or fictional of

true or fictional of campaigns or you know like for example

campaigns or you know like for example

campaigns or you know like for example like the lord of the rings that's the

like the lord of the rings that's the

like the lord of the rings that's the content

content

content right but yes the thing that always

right but yes the thing that always

right but yes the thing that always inspired me was

inspired me was

inspired me was it could be possible for somebody who's

it could be possible for somebody who's

it could be possible for somebody who's crazy enough

crazy enough

crazy enough to go up against adversity after

to go up against adversity after

to go up against adversity after adversity after adversity

adversity after adversity

adversity after adversity and it succeeds i mean those are false

and it succeeds i mean those are false

and it succeeds i mean those are false those are

those are

those are fictitious but i also spent a lot of

fictitious but i also spent a lot of

fictitious but i also spent a lot of time i guess reading about i don't know

time i guess reading about i don't know

time i guess reading about i don't know i was interested somehow in like

i was interested somehow in like

i was interested somehow in like world war ii history for whatever reason

world war ii history for whatever reason

world war ii history for whatever reason that's a campaign which is much more

that's a campaign which is much more

that's a campaign which is much more brutal

brutal

brutal but nevertheless the idea of

but nevertheless the idea of

but nevertheless the idea of difficulty strategy uh fighting even

difficulty strategy uh fighting even

difficulty strategy uh fighting even when

when

when things that in that case was really

things that in that case was really

things that in that case was really fighting but just pushing on even when

fighting but just pushing on even when

fighting but just pushing on even when things are difficult

things are difficult

things are difficult i guess these are these are the kinds of

i guess these are these are the kinds of

i guess these are these are the kinds of general stories that

general stories that

general stories that made me i guess want to work on things

made me i guess want to work on things

made me i guess want to work on things that would be

that would be

that would be hard and where it could be a campaign

hard and where it could be a campaign

hard and where it could be a campaign it could be that you work on something

it could be that you work on something

it could be that you work on something for a year multiple years

for a year multiple years

for a year multiple years because that was the point yeah it

because that was the point yeah it

because that was the point yeah it starts with a single person

starts with a single person

starts with a single person that that's that's the interesting thing

that that's that's the interesting thing

that that's that's the interesting thing i've obviously been

i've obviously been

i've obviously been don't shut up about it recently about

don't shut up about it recently about

don't shut up about it recently about world war ii especially on the hitler

world war ii especially on the hitler

world war ii especially on the hitler side and the stalin side

side and the stalin side

side and the stalin side some of that has really affected my own

some of that has really affected my own

some of that has really affected my own family the the roots of my family very

family the the roots of my family very

family the the roots of my family very much

much

much but it's interesting to think um

but it's interesting to think um

but it's interesting to think um that it was just an idea and one person

that it was just an idea and one person

that it was just an idea and one person decided to do stuff

decided to do stuff

decided to do stuff and it just builds and builds and builds

and it just builds and builds and builds

and it just builds and builds and builds and

and

and you can truly have an impact on the

you can truly have an impact on the

you can truly have an impact on the world both uh

world both uh

world both uh horrendous and and

horrendous and and

horrendous and and uh like exceptionally positive

uh like exceptionally positive

uh like exceptionally positive and inspiring so yeah that's uh it's

and inspiring so yeah that's uh it's

and inspiring so yeah that's uh it's like

like

like it's uh agency of us individuals

it's uh agency of us individuals

it's uh agency of us individuals sometimes we think we're just reacting

sometimes we think we're just reacting

sometimes we think we're just reacting to the world but we have the full power

to the world but we have the full power

to the world but we have the full power to actually change the

to actually change the

to actually change the world is there um advice you can give to

world is there um advice you can give to

world is there um advice you can give to young folks

young folks

young folks we talked we gave a bunch of advice on

we talked we gave a bunch of advice on

we talked we gave a bunch of advice on middle school

middle school

middle school high school mathematics is there more

high school mathematics is there more

high school mathematics is there more general advice you would give about

general advice you would give about

general advice you would give about how to succeed in life how to learn for

how to succeed in life how to learn for

how to succeed in life how to learn for high school students for college

high school students for college

high school students for college students

students

students career or life in general so i think the

career or life in general so i think the

career or life in general so i think the first one would be

first one would be

first one would be to make sure that you're learning to

to make sure that you're learning to

to make sure that you're learning to invent and to make sure you're not

invent and to make sure you're not

invent and to make sure you're not just learning how to mimic

just learning how to mimic

just learning how to mimic because a lot of times you learn how to

because a lot of times you learn how to

because a lot of times you learn how to do x by watching somebody do x and then

do x by watching somebody do x and then

do x by watching somebody do x and then repeating x many times with different

repeating x many times with different

repeating x many times with different inputs

inputs

inputs i'm just being very generic in

i'm just being very generic in

i'm just being very generic in explaining this but i guess this is just

explaining this but i guess this is just

explaining this but i guess this is just my own

my own

my own attitude towards the world i didn't like

attitude towards the world i didn't like

attitude towards the world i didn't like ever following anyone's directions

ever following anyone's directions

ever following anyone's directions exactly even if you told me this

exactly even if you told me this

exactly even if you told me this this is the way to do your homework is

this is the way to do your homework is

this is the way to do your homework is to write in pencil i would say

to write in pencil i would say

to write in pencil i would say but i think that is nice let's try right

but i think that is nice let's try right

but i think that is nice let's try right so i've been that kind of a funny person

so i've been that kind of a funny person

so i've been that kind of a funny person but i do

but i do

but i do encourage that if you can learn how to

encourage that if you can learn how to

encourage that if you can learn how to invent as your core skill then you can

invent as your core skill then you can

invent as your core skill then you can do a lot but then the second piece that

do a lot but then the second piece that

do a lot but then the second piece that comes with that is something i learned

comes with that is something i learned

comes with that is something i learned from my phd advisor

from my phd advisor

from my phd advisor phd advisor which was well make sure

phd advisor which was well make sure

phd advisor which was well make sure that what you're

that what you're

that what you're working on is big enough and so in that

working on is big enough and so in that

working on is big enough and so in that sense i usually advise to people once

sense i usually advise to people once

sense i usually advise to people once they have learned how to invent

they have learned how to invent

they have learned how to invent ideally don't just try to settle for

ideally don't just try to settle for

ideally don't just try to settle for something comfortable

something comfortable

something comfortable try to see if you can aim for something

try to see if you can aim for something

try to see if you can aim for something which is

which is

which is hard which might involve a campaign

hard which might involve a campaign

hard which might involve a campaign which might be important

which might be important

which might be important which might make a difference and it's

which might make a difference and it's

which might make a difference and it's more of

more of

more of i guess rather than worrying what if you

i guess rather than worrying what if you

i guess rather than worrying what if you didn't achieve that

didn't achieve that

didn't achieve that there's also the regret of what if i

there's also the regret of what if i

there's also the regret of what if i didn't try

didn't try

didn't try see that's how i operate i don't operate

see that's how i operate i don't operate

see that's how i operate i don't operate based on did i succeed or fail it was

based on did i succeed or fail it was

based on did i succeed or fail it was hard anyway

hard anyway

hard anyway if i did this novid thing and the whole

if i did this novid thing and the whole

if i did this novid thing and the whole thing failed would i feel terrible no

thing failed would i feel terrible no

thing failed would i feel terrible no it's a very hard problem but would i

it's a very hard problem but would i

it's a very hard problem but would i have had the regret of

have had the regret of

have had the regret of not jumping in yes so it's that

not jumping in yes so it's that

not jumping in yes so it's that different mentality of don't worry about

different mentality of don't worry about

different mentality of don't worry about the failing part as much of the

the failing part as much of the

the failing part as much of the make sure you give yourself the shot at

make sure you give yourself the shot at

make sure you give yourself the shot at those potentially unbounded

those potentially unbounded

those potentially unbounded opportunities you almost make it sound

opportunities you almost make it sound

opportunities you almost make it sound like there's a meaning to it all uh let

like there's a meaning to it all uh let

like there's a meaning to it all uh let me ask the big ridiculous question what

me ask the big ridiculous question what

me ask the big ridiculous question what do you think is the meaning of life

do you think is the meaning of life

do you think is the meaning of life or maybe the easier version of that is

or maybe the easier version of that is

or maybe the easier version of that is what brings your life joy

what brings your life joy

what brings your life joy so i'll just answer that one personally

so i'll just answer that one personally

so i'll just answer that one personally for me i'm a little bit weird i sort of

for me i'm a little bit weird i sort of

for me i'm a little bit weird i sort of i guess you can tell that but i see the

i guess you can tell that but i see the

i guess you can tell that but i see the pen and pencil discussion from earlier

pen and pencil discussion from earlier

pen and pencil discussion from earlier yes yeah yeah

yes yeah yeah

yes yeah yeah so i mean my thing is i guess i

so i mean my thing is i guess i

so i mean my thing is i guess i personally

personally

personally just wanted to maximize a certain score

just wanted to maximize a certain score

just wanted to maximize a certain score which was for how many person years

which was for how many person years

which was for how many person years after i'm no longer

after i'm no longer

after i'm no longer here anymore did what i do mattered

here anymore did what i do mattered

here anymore did what i do mattered yeah and it didn't matter if it's

yeah and it didn't matter if it's

yeah and it didn't matter if it's necessarily attributed to me it's just

necessarily attributed to me it's just

necessarily attributed to me it's just like

like

like did it did it matter and so that's what

did it did it matter and so that's what

did it did it matter and so that's what i that's what i

i that's what i

i that's what i wanted um i guess that is very inspired

wanted um i guess that is very inspired

wanted um i guess that is very inspired by

by

by how scientists work it's like why do we

how scientists work it's like why do we

how scientists work it's like why do we keep talking about newton it's because

keep talking about newton it's because

keep talking about newton it's because newton discovered some interesting

newton discovered some interesting

newton discovered some interesting things and so newton's score is pretty

things and so newton's score is pretty

things and so newton's score is pretty high

high

high it's going to be infinity right well

it's going to be infinity right well

it's going to be infinity right well let's hope it's infinity but pretty high

let's hope it's infinity but pretty high

let's hope it's infinity but pretty high ah yes yes so you're going for so person

ah yes yes so you're going for so person

ah yes yes so you're going for so person person years you're going for like

person years you're going for like

person years you're going for like triple digits you're going for

triple digits you're going for

triple digits you're going for it's like newton is like four digits

it's like newton is like four digits

it's like newton is like four digits probably like a thousand years

probably like a thousand years

probably like a thousand years yeah yeah or personal lifetimes like how

yeah yeah or personal lifetimes like how

yeah yeah or personal lifetimes like how do you like to think well what are we

do you like to think well what are we

do you like to think well what are we sorry i've met people times years people

sorry i've met people times years people

sorry i've met people times years people sometimes so so then it's like

sometimes so so then it's like

sometimes so so then it's like actually this is huge this is like going

actually this is huge this is like going

actually this is huge this is like going to be billions or trillions yeah

to be billions or trillions yeah

to be billions or trillions yeah right the trillions but um i guess

right the trillions but um i guess

right the trillions but um i guess for me i actually changed the metric

for me i actually changed the metric

for me i actually changed the metric after a while and the reason is because

after a while and the reason is because

after a while and the reason is because you may have seen i found some simple

you may have seen i found some simple

you may have seen i found some simple way to solve quadratic equations

way to solve quadratic equations

way to solve quadratic equations that is easier than every textbook yes

that is easier than every textbook yes

that is easier than every textbook yes so

so

so my score might already be not bad which

my score might already be not bad which

my score might already be not bad which is why i decided then let's change it

is why i decided then let's change it

is why i decided then let's change it into

into

into the number of hours in the lifetimes as

the number of hours in the lifetimes as

the number of hours in the lifetimes as well so the way i was doing it

well so the way i was doing it

well so the way i was doing it before is that

before is that

before is that if a person was sort of remembering

if a person was sort of remembering

if a person was sort of remembering or using or or or appreciating what i

or using or or or appreciating what i

or using or or or appreciating what i had done

had done

had done for for like 10 years if

for for like 10 years if

for for like 10 years if of their life oh that would count as 10

of their life oh that would count as 10

of their life oh that would count as 10 i see so if there was one person who for

i see so if there was one person who for

i see so if there was one person who for 10 years

10 years

10 years yes remembered or appreciated something

yes remembered or appreciated something

yes remembered or appreciated something i did that counts as a score of 10 and

i did that counts as a score of 10 and

i did that counts as a score of 10 and we add up over all people

we add up over all people

we add up over all people yes and then uh and that was with the

yes and then uh and that was with the

yes and then uh and that was with the hypothesis that the score

hypothesis that the score

hypothesis that the score would be very finite in the sense that

would be very finite in the sense that

would be very finite in the sense that if i didn't come up with anything that

if i didn't come up with anything that

if i didn't come up with anything that might potentially help a lot of

might potentially help a lot of

might potentially help a lot of generations

generations

generations in a forever way then your score will be

in a forever way then your score will be

in a forever way then your score will be finite because at some point

finite because at some point

finite because at some point it's not people don't remember that you

it's not people don't remember that you

it's not people don't remember that you made like nice bottles or something yeah

made like nice bottles or something yeah

made like nice bottles or something yeah right but then after the quadratic

right but then after the quadratic

right but then after the quadratic equation thing

equation thing

equation thing it was that there's some chance that

it was that there's some chance that

it was that there's some chance that that actually might make it into

that actually might make it into

that actually might make it into textbooks

textbooks

textbooks yes and if it makes it in textbooks the

yes and if it makes it in textbooks the

yes and if it makes it in textbooks the chance that there will be an easier way

chance that there will be an easier way

chance that there will be an easier way discovered is actually quite small

discovered is actually quite small

discovered is actually quite small yes so in that case then the score might

yes so in that case then the score might

yes so in that case then the score might get bigger

get bigger

get bigger i was just saying the score might

i was just saying the score might

i was just saying the score might actually already have been achieved in

actually already have been achieved in

actually already have been achieved in non-trivial way so see because it's fun

non-trivial way so see because it's fun

non-trivial way so see because it's fun to think about

to think about

to think about because it could be different you can

because it could be different you can

because it could be different you can achieve a high score

achieve a high score

achieve a high score by a small number of people using it for

by a small number of people using it for

by a small number of people using it for most of their lifetime and then

most of their lifetime and then

most of their lifetime and then generations and generations

generations and generations

generations and generations or you can have if we do dissipate if we

or you can have if we do dissipate if we

or you can have if we do dissipate if we do spread colonize

do spread colonize

do spread colonize become multi-planetary species you could

become multi-planetary species you could

become multi-planetary species you could have that little

have that little

have that little um a clever way to solve differential

um a clever way to solve differential

um a clever way to solve differential equations

equations

equations um uh spread

um uh spread

um uh spread through like trillions of people as they

through like trillions of people as they

through like trillions of people as they yes spread throughout the galaxy

yes spread throughout the galaxy

yes spread throughout the galaxy and they it would they would only use it

and they it would they would only use it

and they it would they would only use it each one

each one

each one a few hours in their lifetime but yes

a few hours in their lifetime but yes

a few hours in their lifetime but yes their kids would use it the kids the

their kids would use it the kids the

their kids would use it the kids the kids would use it it'll spread and

kids would use it it'll spread and

kids would use it it'll spread and you'll have that

you'll have that

you'll have that impact in that kind of way yes so that's

impact in that kind of way yes so that's

impact in that kind of way yes so that's why i renormalized it because i was like

why i renormalized it because i was like

why i renormalized it because i was like well that's kind of dumb because what's

well that's kind of dumb because what's

well that's kind of dumb because what's the importance of that that will save

the importance of that that will save

the importance of that that will save people 15 minutes

people 15 minutes

people 15 minutes um but so so what i meant is i didn't

um but so so what i meant is i didn't

um but so so what i meant is i didn't want to count that as the main score

well i'm gonna have to try to come up

well i'm gonna have to try to come up with uh some kind of device that

with uh some kind of device that

with uh some kind of device that everyone would want to use maybe to make

everyone would want to use maybe to make

everyone would want to use maybe to make coffee because

coffee because

coffee because coffee seems to be the prevalent uh

coffee seems to be the prevalent uh

coffee seems to be the prevalent uh performance performance-enhancing

performance performance-enhancing

performance performance-enhancing chemical that everyone uses so

chemical that everyone uses so

chemical that everyone uses so i'll have to think about in those kinds

i'll have to think about in those kinds

i'll have to think about in those kinds of metrics yeah but

of metrics yeah but

of metrics yeah but but you see that that's just giving an

but you see that that's just giving an

but you see that that's just giving an idea of i guess what i found meaningful

idea of i guess what i found meaningful

idea of i guess what i found meaningful in general like whether or not it's like

in general like whether or not it's like

in general like whether or not it's like whether or not that quadratic thing is

whether or not that quadratic thing is

whether or not that quadratic thing is important or not

important or not

important or not the general idea was i wanted to do

the general idea was i wanted to do

the general idea was i wanted to do things that would outlast me

things that would outlast me

things that would outlast me yes and that was what inspired me and

yes and that was what inspired me and

yes and that was what inspired me and that's just how i choose what problems

that's just how i choose what problems

that's just how i choose what problems to work on

to work on

to work on and that's the kind of immortalities

and that's the kind of immortalities

and that's the kind of immortalities ideas that you've

ideas that you've

ideas that you've invented living on long after you

invented living on long after you

invented living on long after you in the minds of others and humans are

in the minds of others and humans are

in the minds of others and humans are ultimately not

ultimately not

ultimately not are like meat vehicles

are like meat vehicles

are like meat vehicles that carry ideas for brief for just a

that carry ideas for brief for just a

that carry ideas for brief for just a few years

few years

few years may not be the important thing it might

may not be the important thing it might

may not be the important thing it might be the ideas that we carry with us

be the ideas that we carry with us

be the ideas that we carry with us and invent new ones like we get a bunch

and invent new ones like we get a bunch

and invent new ones like we get a bunch of baby ideas in our head

of baby ideas in our head

of baby ideas in our head we borrow them from others and then

we borrow them from others and then

we borrow them from others and then maybe we invent a new one

maybe we invent a new one

maybe we invent a new one and that new one might have a life of

and that new one might have a life of

and that new one might have a life of its own and

its own and

its own and it's fun it's fun to think about that

it's fun it's fun to think about that

it's fun it's fun to think about that idea living from many

idea living from many

idea living from many centuries to come unless we destroy

centuries to come unless we destroy

centuries to come unless we destroy ourselves but maybe ai will borrow it

ourselves but maybe ai will borrow it

ourselves but maybe ai will borrow it and we'll remember poe as like that one

and we'll remember poe as like that one

and we'll remember poe as like that one human that

human that

human that that that helped us out before we of

that that helped us out before we of

that that helped us out before we of course killed him and the rest of human

course killed him and the rest of human

course killed him and the rest of human civilization

civilization

civilization on that note well this is a huge honor

on that note well this is a huge honor

on that note well this is a huge honor you're one of the great educators

you're one of the great educators

you're one of the great educators i've uh ever gotten a chance to interact

i've uh ever gotten a chance to interact

i've uh ever gotten a chance to interact with so it's it's truly an honor that

with so it's it's truly an honor that

with so it's it's truly an honor that you would talk with me today

you would talk with me today

you would talk with me today it means especially a lot that you would

it means especially a lot that you would

it means especially a lot that you would travel out to austin to talk to me

travel out to austin to talk to me

travel out to austin to talk to me it really means a lot so thank you so

it really means a lot so thank you so

it really means a lot so thank you so much keep on inspiring

much keep on inspiring

much keep on inspiring and i'm one of your many many students

and i'm one of your many many students

and i'm one of your many many students thank you so much for talking today

thank you so much for talking today

thank you so much for talking today thank you thank you it's actually a real

thank you thank you it's actually a real

thank you thank you it's actually a real honor for me to talk to you and and to

honor for me to talk to you and and to

honor for me to talk to you and and to get this chance to have this

get this chance to have this

get this chance to have this really intellectual conversation through

really intellectual conversation through

really intellectual conversation through all of these topics thanks bo

all of these topics thanks bo

all of these topics thanks bo thanks for listening to this

thanks for listening to this

thanks for listening to this conversation with paul shanlow and thank

conversation with paul shanlow and thank

conversation with paul shanlow and thank you to

you to

you to jordan harbor the show on it better help

jordan harbor the show on it better help

jordan harbor the show on it better help eight sleep and element check them out

eight sleep and element check them out

eight sleep and element check them out in the description to support this

in the description to support this

in the description to support this podcast

podcast

podcast and now let me leave you with some words

and now let me leave you with some words

and now let me leave you with some words from isaac newton

from isaac newton

from isaac newton i can calculate the motion of heavenly

i can calculate the motion of heavenly

i can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies but not the madness of people

bodies but not the madness of people

bodies but not the madness of people thank you for listening and hope to see

thank you for listening and hope to see

thank you for listening and hope to see you next time

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Po-Shen Loh: Mathematics, Math Olympiad, Combinatorics & Contact Tracing | Lex Fridman Podcast #183

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Po-Shen Loh: Mathematics, Math Olympiad, Combinatorics & Contact Tracing | Lex Fridman Podcast #183