This content discusses the evolution of crypto projects, distinguishing between "financial engineering schemers" and genuine builders, with a strong focus on the Pudgy Penguins brand's strategy for long-term success through community engagement, IP expansion, and a unique approach to token launches.
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I'm trying to optimize for maximum
success here. For us to succeed, we
actually have to win. There's really
like two cohorts of crypto founders, but
one cohort is financial engineering
schemers, which means you can launch a
token without any community, without any
success, but you can engineer its
success on the top 100.
>> How much of crypto is that today?
>> 35 to 50% of the top 100 coins are built
like this.
>> Luca Net, CEO of Pudgy Penguins, turning
a cute NFT brand into a web 3
powerhouse. From viral toys to a 1.5
billion Pangu airdrop, he's redefining
how communities engage with crypto and culture.
culture.
>> Why did you decide to launch a memecoin?
>> Hudgy Penguins is a licensing powerhouse
and our job is to bring as many people
via that licensing vehicle into crypto
and into our ecosystem. And ultimately,
I made a promise to them and it's my job
to bring you guys success.
>> Every coin is a meme coin.
>> What's the plan for the Penguin to
compete with millions of other coins out
there? I think the first place is
exchange listings. Sure, there's 100
million tokens, but there's only 50 or
60 that are available on all of these
venues. I think creates a degree of
separation because our thing at Pudgy is
we're really great at making viral
moments and creating that virality
around that penguin. What if Eth is
cooked? I'll give you some good alpha
for the ETH community. The ETH
Foundation reached out to somebody that
I knew and he asked him, he said, "How
can we support you better?" This is big
news because ETH foundation reaching out
to new builders and saying how can we
support you better is a complete 360
shift of the tide. There's eagle,
there's pudgy penguins, there's
abstract. What's the link between
abstract and pudgy penguins if there is any
any [Music]
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>> I was I was doing bad there for a sec. >> Bed.
>> Bed.
>> I was doing bad. What? What's this?
Salana Visa card.
>> I want this. Where'd you get this?
>> It's a cast card. He's one of the
sponsors of the podcast. Oh,
>> you want to send me a link to that?
>> Yeah, absolutely. You spend your stable
coins. Just boom boom boom boom boom.
It's very addictive actually.
>> And there is this is the golden card.
It's actually actual gold.
>> Yeah, it feels it. That's why like I held
held
>> I'll send you the link. So it's
absolutely absolutely I'll do that afterwards.
afterwards.
>> How are you doing? You said not that
well before.
>> Yeah, I was not doing that well like
four months ago.
>> I'm doing better now.
>> Tell me more about that. Uh,
Trump, Melania, spy down 25%, tariff
wars, nonsense,
>> baby, years of hard work, max
capitulation mode. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> But, uh, we're doing good now.
>> How do you detach your execution
capabilities and emotions
from the crazy market swings, especially
when there is brutal draw downs like we
had in February?
>> Yeah, super super great question. And I
think for me some of the best pieces of content
content
uh over the last 6 months has been you
know there's a couple pieces from Bill
Aman and Jeff Bezos just like dude you
know being down 90% is not necessarily
indicative of your performance and I
knew for what we were doing that it wasn't
wasn't
>> but sometimes just like the tides are
against you and sometimes the tide just
needs to wash itself out and the best
entrepreneurs in the world have been
down 90%. So I was taking it I lost a
lot of confidence it felt like for like
a month's time because we were trying to
do things and and and we thought we
could go against the tide of the macro
and we learned the hard way and
sometimes just you know some of my
favorite stocks today like Robin Hood
you know down 85%. you know, just like
people that I have so much respect for
that look, let's if you're an
entrepreneur, you have to have
confidence, you have to have faith in
what you're building and price can't
sway you in any which direction. Um, you
know, off of that conviction and though
it can be tough, you know, the hard part
is when like people you respect are like
messaging you being like, "What are you
going to do? What are you doing?" Mhm.
>> You know, as if, you know, people that
had watched us for years,
>> who bet on us, who knew what we were
capable of and knew the team and the
organization that we built and the IP
that we built, you know, messaging me
like that's really, you know, I was I
met with a guy. We were laughing about
it. That's the hard part.
>> It's like, what do you mean? What am I
doing? You see this? You see the stock
market, it's down 6% in a day. What do
you want me to do? You want me to go
against that tide? like am I supposed to
functionally do something and then but
it's interesting because the NFT stuff I
used to be able to make calls like with
the NFTs you know get to a certain price
I make a call I talk to some people
figure it out it's it's less liquid
right when you've got a thing that's
three4 billion
>> there's no call that you can make you
know there's there's nobody cuz we you
know the the interesting part about
Pangoo is we actually gave like I keep
harping on the size of the airdrop
because it's never been done at that
egg. A lot of people gave me a lot of
[ __ ] for it. The core holders, but I
told him I was like, "Dude, no one wants
to buy a coin that's just penguins
dumping on, right?" Like the only way
everyone was going to buy this was as if
like everyone was in on it. I think that
was one of the problems with Ape at the
time when I remember looking back at it.
>> And you know, very few tokens, if you
understand crypto, if you're one of
those sophisticated investors, like very
few tokens have even that look 100%
unlocked, have a true liquid float the
way that Pangu does. Even these top meme
coins, they have like early bundlers and
early people that are holding big
positions. Very few coins in crypto have
a true liquid float the way that Pangu
does. And that's a great thing in terms
of figuring out its true price, but it's
also a bad thing in the sense when like
the market capitulates, that's a real
float with real tokens and real people's hands.
hands.
>> A little bit of a monologue, but I
thought it was, you know, good. No, but
think about
I mean there's many example that come to
my mind but one is sailor in 2001 or
2002 I think Microsoft is down like 99%. Yeah.
Yeah.
>> And stayed down for 10 15 years, right?
Despite having an amazing business like
a cash cow
>> and so I mean now he's doing amazingly
well but had to change a lot of things
but like yeah I think every I mean if
you got Amazon right I think happened
three or four times. >> Y
>> Y
>> and you can do anything and in crypto is
it doesn't take three four five month uh
uh six months to go down 90% it takes
one month. So it kind of d I mean I
would say double-edged sword like on one
side it's [ __ ] brutal but at least
the pain is done right faster
>> but on the other hand yeah it's yeah
it's tough it's very tough. Um how do
you get back on your feet after a crash
like that?
I think for us it's just like there's
you know it it was kind of like uh us
buying Pudgy for 2.5 million bucks and
then like FTX blew up and coin and and
all of that like all the exchanges blew
up. Um, it's kind of like you have no
other choice.
>> You know, you know, like a lot of
people, you know, the, you know, my
personal incentive on Pangu is on a
one-year cliff, three-year vest, right?
Like you, you know, all that I've been
working for is tied to the success of that.
that.
>> You know, it's tied to other things, but
like in the immediate short term, it's
tied to that. Um, and I think for us, it
was just like you got to figure it out.
and we just started figuring things out
and then obviously the market gave a
little bit of relief and that felt good
and you know of the top five alts that
bounced right like we were in the top
five best performing from the bottom to
the recent high. Um and that made me
feel good cuz I think I think the the
worry there for a moment was like is
this thing cooked? Was this the moment?
Was this the opportunity? And are we now
going to do another couple years of a
bare market? And it feels like we've
been building in a bare market this
whole time. uh and and was that like you
know was that the opport I don't know
what we were thinking but but I felt
confidence when it started to give some
relief and that you know when people
were deciding to buy new you know coins
on the dip we were one of their top choices
choices
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And now back to the episode. You run an
NFT project, an IP brand,
you're launching a layer 2.
>> Yep. Why did you decide to launch a
memecoin in late 2024?
>> Cuz I was just I was just seeing all
these there's a couple things. It was like
like
I meme coins were taking intangible IPs
and kind of making them tangible and
yielding insane monster valuations. And
there's a new business model at Pudgy
that we're pioneering, which wasn't
evident to me at the time, but this was
kind of the early inklings of this
mindset, which is Pudgy Penguins is a
licensing powerhouse, right? Like that
is our job. And our job is to bring as
many people via that licensing vehicle
into crypto and into our ecosystem.
you know, when you're seeing, you know,
just being frank, like [ __ ] IPs and
[ __ ] memes hitting a billion dollars
and you have what statistically is the
most highly impressioned, most highly
beloved and loved cryptonative
character, right? It it it at that point
superseded an NFT. And then so you saw
well like this is a huge opportunity to
bring value to our community and
ultimately I made a promise to them
early on and that promise will remain
true as long as I'm at the helm which is
like it's my job to bring you guys
success and there's levers that I have
that I have the ability to pull at
certain moments that can go and bring
them huge you know create that wealth
transfer from you know our hard work
into the community's hands and uh and
and it also felt like probably the most
important one was just
How much you know the NFT 20 30 40 50
$100,000 how many how many buyers are
really participating in that what is
there 5 10 15,000 people in the world
that can actually participate in the
purchasing of of that NFT and it just
seemed like we have all these millions
of followers we have such a big
community we have such a big brand like
let's actually see what what we're worth
in this attention economy uh and give it
a shot and And the the moment was the
beauty of that was the timing. So it
basically went from zero to f basically
in 5 weeks we launched the entire token.
So I I Trump got elected. I saw what
happened and I said we have to do this
right now. We stopped everything that we
were doing and we basically launched it
in 5 weeks and I thought we'd have like
a five sixmon window, right? And it
turned out to be and I think that would
have been the case if Trump and Melania
didn't happen. But then we launched 4
weeks later Trump launches. 2 days after
that Melania happens and Melania Trump
you survived Trump but Melania was truly
Tell me everything about what you think
about the launch, the good, the bad, the
ugly. You mentioned before, that's very
interesting. You mentioned before we had
to give it to as many people as possible.
possible. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Can you tell me the good, the bad, the ugly?
ugly?
>> Yeah. 0 to 5 weeks, a launch of that
magnitude. No joke. And you really got
to unpack and remember what happened.
The animations, the engagement. I mean,
that whole Pangu sprint clocked 100
million impressions on Twitter just on
the main account. I'm not even like
factoring in other people posting. If
you go to those posts, like the first
video we posted on it, it got 25 million
views or something. And the the quality
and just the sprint from zero to one was
just absolutely insane. We did an event
behind it. It was like a whole it it it
was a it yeah, it was a a ginormous
production. It wasn't just launching a
coin. and you had all the exchanges,
everything was kind of set up. Um, the
good was what a hercuan sprint in such a
short amount of time. And even if it
even if it wasn't done in 5 weeks, it
looked like it took a year to do, right?
If you actually like look at how all the
pieces kind of felt fell together.
>> Um, and then and so, you know, the how
we did it, I thought the distribution in
hindsight still made sense. I still
believe that that was the right way to
do it.
Do am I a little I'm a little frustrated
at cryptos like felt like some people
kind of like took the money and and and
the hard part was when we were down 80
90%. Was the little futters and guys who
had given money to were talking [ __ ]
like that that was the part that really
threw my head on a swivel.
>> And you know there's this saying which
is like never crash out. I got really
close to crashing out cuz I was like
where's the respect? I did it the right
way. I did it the way that all the
crypto users, all the guys on CT, the
peanut gallery, they literally pray for
founders like me to go and do things the
way that we did it, right? And then for
like 2 months later after like memecoin
black swans and tariff [ __ ] you're
over here like making threads about me
and my token that I just blessed and
gave to 6 million wallets. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Have some respect. which which again I
had to control myself there and
thankfully I didn't crash out. That was
the part that really [ __ ] with me though.
though.
>> But to your point to your to your core
question, the good, the bad, the ugly,
you know, I think 99% of it was good. I
think the only part that I believe we
were a little frustrated and hindsight
it was such an easy mess. But I should
have let holders claim in the first hour
and then let everyone claim after. That
was a big mistake. And I I I don't know
why I we had a justification. I mean,
Pudgy Penguin holders first actually. Okay,
Okay,
>> that would have Okay,
>> that was stupid cuz the only problem
that happened at claim was dude, the
whole world, the whole anybody who had
crypto knew that was an airdrop and they
had a chance everyone was eligible,
right? So, we had like tens of millions
of people on this website trying to
claim these tokens. Crosschain claim is
like it's no easy. It's a real technical
kind of like accomplishment if you think
about the traffic and the load and the
crosschain you know functionality of the
airdrop and how we executed it. But if I
were to change only one thing to be
frank I would have done hey first hour
holders get the airdrop they there's no
you know uh you know any any chance of
the website crashing or holders not
being able to claim cuz I think the the
sad part for me was like some guys
didn't claim on time. Now the beauty of
it is like price was higher 3 weeks
later you know than it was on on that
opening day you know with the exception
of like the opening 10 minutes.
>> So you know most of PE know most of the
holders who ended up claiming didn't
really get burned or get negatively affected.
affected.
>> Um but but that was from an experience
perspective that was the only bottleneck
was just like ah there was an excuse for
it. I I I we brought it up and then
somebody rebuttled it and we were so
fried and on such a sprint that I think
we just like didn't want to write more
code for some like it was stupid. We
should have done it anyway. But um that
was probably the only thing I think from
an execution standpoint we did wrong uh
was we should have let holders claim
within the first hour without anyone
else. We recorded a conversation with
Meow last year. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> During which he said every coin is a
meme coin.
>> That means there's a lot of meme coins
out there.
>> Lots. What's the plan for the Penguin to
stay relevant and to compete with
millions of other coins out there?
>> Yeah, there there's a couple strategies
and I told the community this so I don't
mind ironing it out for you. I think the
first one is having being able to cast
the widest net. I say this almost on
every inner Igloo for like the last 6
months because it's been a big focus of
ours, but in a world where there's 100
million tokens, how can you compete? I
think the first place is exchange
listings. And what I mean by this is
like everyone thinks it's like Binance,
OKX, Coinbase, Buy Bit, you know, Upbit,
and like that's like the golden five
five, but there's like a hundred other
exchanges that have their own, you know,
little communities and pockets around
the world. You know, Bitub is a perfect
example. Like they own Turkish retail.
Turkish retail is a meaningful amount of
people, right? Uh, you know, there's
emerging ones in Japan, things like
that. But being able to be in a bucket
of tokens where, yeah, sure, there's a
hundred million tokens, but there's only
50 or 60 that are available in all of
these venues, I think creates a degree
of separation. Because our thing at
Pudgy is we're really great at making
viral moments and marketing and creating
that virality around that penguin. But
step one, before you get into the big
moments and the explosive headlines that
Pudgy Penguins is known for doing over
the course of the last couple of years,
now that Pangu is introduced, I wanted I
want Pangu to be available in the most
venues so that when I c when I create
those headlines, I can capture that
value into the token. And so I think the
first one is again in a world where
there's 100 million tokens, which tokens
are available in more venues to more
users in the latter, right? And I think
Pudgy Penguin today is available in uh
an X amount of venues. I can't tell you
exactly how many, but there's only 50 or
60 tokens that are available in that
many venues that are have that much
access to X amount of users. And I think
that's probably the first step. And then
the second step is really a lot of what
we already are known for doing which I
mentioned a second ago which was you
know marketing virality you know
community the moments like you thought
you know you thought Walmart was big we
have way bigger moments in the pipeline
for the world to see uh and I believe
and I think a lot of other people do
believe that you know in the right
market conditions as we execute on those
moments and as the world sees us really
pushing the barriers of crypto and you
really understanding our revenue and how
that revenue ties back into the token.
We have a lot of things to unve un
unveil you know as that story begins to
get told. I think you know look at the
end of the day I just came back 5 hours
ago from ringing the bell at the NASDAQ
with the Pangu. Doge isn't doing that.
She isn't doing that. Pepe isn't doing
that. Like I love all those but at the
end of the day like that that rep
representation if I just do that and I
compound that it's going to have its
moment in a way that I think all the
core believers know and all the doubters
are just like smooth braining if that
makes sense.
>> So the bet is that kind of thing that
you did the NASDAQ
>> more of that right
>> is a lot of that is going to one way or
another translate into actual value.
>> I it it's it's moments like that. It's,
you know, what type of strategies are we
going to implement from an equity
perspective and how do we take
traditional equity plays, whether it's
an ETF or a treasury strategy or an IPO
or a spa and how do you tie that into
the value cruel of the token? It's the
fact that, you know, Pudgy will probably
make 30, 40, $50 million this year. If
we double revenue again next year, you
know, where does that revenue go? We can
start, you know, we can do more
marketing, more activations. Maybe we
start buying some, right? like over the
course of time, we just have this
ability to tell this story that I think
nobody else is. And I think of this
cohort of the last couple of years of
memecoins, I think we are the most
honest memecoin of them all. And I say
that simply just by our gift strategy. I
mean, GIFs are memes. We are the fastest
growing GIF, you know, IP in the world
by a Texas mile. And we actually have
tens of billions of viewership of views
around our memecoin that is provable,
statistical and and factually, you know,
proven for anyone to see. And none of
these other memes have that. So, not
only do I think we are the purest meme,
right? And if memes are attention
vehicles and if they're vehicles of
expression and love and community and
culture, I mean, look, everyone else can
tell their story about their bags, but statistically
statistically
from a fact from a factbased
perspective, like Pangu has them all
beat, right? And whether that resonates
with you now or not less doesn't
necessarily matter to me because it will
eventually, right? And when that moment
does uh you know it it's positioned to
capture the minds and and the hearts of
the Elons of the world of the sezes of
the world it's only a matter of time. I
mean if you don't think it's going to
happen like we are going to put this
Pangu on a movie screen. We are going to
put this Pangu in games across 10
different mediums and verticals. We are
going to make this crypto's most
prolific and popular character of all
time. And the byproduct of that is going
to be price appreciation.
That's just the way crypto works and the
way this attention cycle has worked for
crypto over the years. So I think it's,
you know, when when you see VANC, when
you see us ringing the bell, think
attention, right? Think eyeballs. Think,
you know, people being proud of owning
this asset and being a part of this
community. Think conviction building,
right? Like that's what those things
entail. And then our ability to get
jiggy with it. like we're a really smart
group. All of us are relatively young.
We have our finger on the pulse. We know
how to get attention. We have an IP that
is insane momentum. And we have a
company that is growing basically
doubling revenue year-over-year uh with
no with with no chance of slowing down
at least, you know, based on our
forecast. So, I think you just compound
that. It's going to work the way that I
think everyone within the community
wants it to work. Just a matter of time
when everyone else will get it. It's
just a matter of time.
>> We initially met because of PJ Penguins,
the NFT. >> Yeah,
>> Yeah,
>> that's almost two years ago now. Are
NFTs ever coming back?
>> I I still believe NFTTS will come back
and I still believe I think I was on
your podcast and I said, I believe one
day the Pudgy Penguin NFT will hit
triple digit ETH floor. I just believe
that. Um, I believe that because
collectibles in the real world just
work, dude. And and NFTTS are just a
better version of collectibles in every
which way. And you know, there was one
thing about consumer crypto that I
misguided, but I've understood it now
with the the the missing part of of
consumer crypto that I think was missing
that I now think is like the number one
frontier within the industry was stable
coin adoption.
So, I was of this precipice where I was
like, okay, institutions got involved.
Now, you got to go make apps and get
consumers involved.
But the apps that you can make today
without real stable coin adoption are
consumer apps predicated around
financializing something that might not
need to be financialized and trying to
create some sort of like ponzomic
flywheel, right? Like that's a majority
of consumer apps today in crypto. Once
you have stable coin adoption in the
middle, right? And everybody has some
USDC or some USDT or some USD1, you
know, in their in their wallet or in
their phone on their on their, you know,
actual Apple wallet. I think that opens
the doors
>> to a lot of things and I think it's
going to open the doors primarily in a
big way for collectibles. Um, cuz it's
going to feel a lot more native. And now
that that and so when this the whole
stable coin craze was happening which is
happening right now I kind of had like
an epiphany like three months ago like
ah this was kind of why consumer crypto
hadn't taken off yet because putting
dollars into a wallet still has a ton of
friction but if all the platforms are
adopting stable coins right and that
just becomes a native thing you know
transacting on chain is going to get a
whole lot easier
>> and with that I think the opportunity
I completely agree with the collectible
thesis. Uh Rahul Pal is also kind of at
the forefront of that with the two or
three other guys uh who are deep into
NFTs and explaining all that stuff. The
only thing I'm thinking is I mean
probably takes more time than we think
>> for this NFT kind of thesis to pay out
maybe a couple of years. >> Y
>> Y
>> then you need to be in the NFTs that are
in these 100,000 most rare collectibles,
right? So, you need to you need to be I
mean there's a bunch of like very rare
NFTs. Then there's the Crypto Punks and
then there is the apes and the the Py
Penguins, but you need to stay there cuz
things can change, right?
>> How do you stay there?
>> I think we've got it so figured out. M I
I I
I just our brand is most well positioned
for a collectible to appreciate because
we're the furthest thing to we're the
closest thing to a real brand in crypto.
Everyone will tell you that, right? Like
who's the closest thing to a real
genuine brand in crypto? It's Pudgy
Penguins. Like anyone who refuts that is
nuts. If anyone refutes that, just kick
them out of the room. They're they just
don't know what they're talking about,
right? And so collectibles appreciate,
right? The the the biggest collectibles
are the ones based off of brands, right?
So, just turns out my first editions are
my digital collectibles, which are my NFTts.
NFTts.
>> And we are the closest thing to becoming
Crypto Star Wars, to becoming Crypto's
Hello Kitty, to becoming Crypto's
Pokemon. We're the closest thing to that.
that.
>> Do we have a long ways to go? Heck yeah.
uh and we have a we have a lot to prove
and we have a lot of work to do but
we're the closest thing to that right
and so collectibles in the real world
the ones with the highest market caps
are those brands right and so I think
value is most positioned to acrue to our
digital collectible from a PFP
perspective then I think the latter with
maybe the exception of punks from a from
a e it depends how you look at it too
cuz it's like do you factor in airdrops
and wealth creation from the team or do
you factor in like it's two different
sides of the spectrum, but punks are
definitely up there >> because
>> because
the the lore it's like they they the
punks community did great at this whole
like first narrative and they've kind of
captured like that little Bitcoin moment where
where
>> Exactly. It's the Bitcoin of NFTs, right?
right?
>> So, so it's hard hard
>> expected to do nothing and and and kind
of very low risk, no execution risk.
>> Yeah. And they got the new node
foundation all over it.
Yeah, I'm a huge I'm a huge fan of
punks. Obviously Pudgies, XC Copy, Sam
Pratt. Um,
yeah, there's a obviously, you know, you
can't the board ape, you know, the board
ape still iconic. You can say what you
want. You know, I have problems with
some of their community members, but the
board ape is the board ape. You know,
what are you going to you can't knock
the board ape to a certain extent. So, um,
um,
>> what you said before with, um, we're
Hello Kitty or Star Wars, we're the
closest one, right? Actually, the reason
why I bought a bunch of Pudge Penguins
two years ago when we talked the first
time on this podcast and also I bought
some Py after every freaking podcast we
did together. I was like, [ __ ] I need
more Py Penguins. Um, was exactly that.
I was thinking, we are at the beginning
of a new bull market. NFTTS got wrecked.
And if I just look out there, what's out
there? You say we're the closest thing,
but I would go one step further and say
not only is the closest thing, but
what's even what else is out there?
Trying to do something tangible, right?
And two years ago, there was literally nothing.
nothing. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So that's why for for me the the NFT
play on Ping was like a no-brainer. So
as I said, I own a bunch of Py Penguins.
I bought I bought more Pudgey after
every podcast we've done together.
Should I should I hold on to my Py
Penguins NFTs for dear life? And why?
>> I think so because and it it I think
I think if you hold ETH
like any ETH south of 100 ETH, I think
you got to hold it in penguins. I think
it's I think you're fiscally
irresponsible if you if you don't
because the data tells me that it
outperforms stake ETH every year since
I've been at the helm. And that's a very
easy benchmark to beat. You know, the I
say 100 ETH because like, you know, when
you have, you know, NFTs are illquid,
you know, going in and going out
relatively. So, if you have more than
like 15 penguins, it's it's harder to
get in and out of them. You know, it's
not like just clicking a button on a
trade, right? You got to, you know, play
a little bit of a game. But I I think if
you're bullish Ethereum and you're
playing with south of 100 ETH and you're
just trying to net long ETH, Pudgy
Penguins will outperform it every day of
the week. I mean, don't even take my
word for it. The data is insane behind
that statement. If you actually look at
the returns, it's like 100%
year-over-year, right? If you factor in
the air drops, if you factor If you
don't factor in the air drops, uh it's
still like 38% or something like that.
something blended over the media in
three years.
>> I asked this question to Raul actually
in uh in Dubai maybe two two months ago.
He's very bullish NFTs. What if ETH is
cooked forever? Because it's so tight.
All these NFTs like these OG NFTs,
they're all tied to ETH and ETH has been
having a crisis moment and every time we
think, oh, now we're so back, we're not
so back, right? What's
>> that? That's a bet you're going to have
to make. Now, I'll give you the because
I I'm a I'm a believer of salon. And I'm
a big believer of Salana.
>> I'm also a big believer of Ethereum for
different reasons. But I will tell you
the reasons why I'm bullish Salana. I'll
give you some good alpha for the ETH
community because you're right. Like I
don't believe like I I very much believe
they're ETH denominated. And so part of
it has to be a bet on ETH, right?
They're just part of the game.
>> Um but the ETH foundation reached out to
somebody that I knew, a builder. This is
crazy because ETH Foundation doesn't
reach out to builders. And he asked him,
he said, "How can we support you better?"
better?"
This is big. This is this is big news
from behind the scenes because ETH
foundation reaching out to people and
build net new builders and saying, "How
can we support you better?" is a
complete 360 shift of the tide.
>> Uh and then obviously the stable coin
stuff. Now, I don't think I think the
whole like, oh, they they're powering
stable coins. I think that's a less
defensible moat than I think people
think. But today, most stable coins are
being issued on ETH >> for
>> for
for reasons that like look, it's the
best netneutral, you know, blockchain
out there and with the highest security
and, you know, has stood the test of
time the longest. Um, but I do think
that mo could be taken. But I think the
most bullish thing to come out of
Ethereum is the fact they're actually
talking to builders. I mean, think about
this. Pudgy Penguins for a while was
like one of the shining lights of
Ethereum. I still think it is today.
Like name like especially in the
category and the little ocean that we're
playing in compared to most crypto
builders. Like we are we own our ocean,
our part of the ocean.
Not a single person from any ETH
anything acknowledged me outside of like
one Medici conference where I said hi to
Joe Luben and he like shook my hand but
probably doesn't even know who the heck
I am, right? Um there was like a very
pompous like ivory tower culture there
that was real. I'm telling you as a
builder it was it was super real.
>> Um but and and and that I think is
>> was one of its Achilles heels. But to
your point is it a bet on ETH? I very
much think it is from the med from the
short to medium term. If you have a
crazy long her time horizon which nobody
in crypto really does with the exception
of a few. If you have a 10 to 20 year
time horizon, I'd say maybe less
predicated because maybe ETH goes to
zero and it's just a stable coin chain,
right? And it just lives like that and
people just transact on the chain in
dollars. Um, but my my bet I think in
the in the short to medium term, meaning
from now until the next 5 10 years,
you're bet you're betting the all NFTs
to some extent, you're b you're betting
the native currency
u and you're betting that outperformance
of the NFT. I just have to say something
about the ETH uh people.
This podcast is the same. I had Ty from
Solana. I had Chris Larson from Ripple.
I had Lily. I had Poloca dot. I had
Gavin. Almost everyone.
>> The if people are unreachable or they
don't give a [ __ ] They say, "Yeah,
yeah, yeah." And they never come back.
>> And I mean, I might have Jolin, but it
was it's a nightmare to get these people
on. And and at some point, you're like,
"Hey, look, these are all the other
people." Everyone came on this freaking
podcast. Like guys,
like come on. So I I mean I'm not like a
builder builder, but like it's the same.
I'm like at some point you just you
almost want to say listen guys, you
don't want to do anything. [ __ ] it. Like
I'm just going to go to the other
people. Right. >> Right.
>> Right.
>> And so yeah, if it's that like that for
me, which is like a very simple business
like for more complicated blockchain
based businesses.
>> I can't even imagine.
>> You've got a pretty great podcast, dude.
I've watched over the years. You've got
the insane rolodex of guests ever.
>> We have better to come. Even better. But
>> who has a better rolodex of guests in
crypto? I mean, ser you must know who's
your who's your biggest competitor? I
would love to know who who do you wake
up and be like, damn,
who are you competing with? You must be
competing with someone.
>> I mean, honestly, because I do this in
studio podcast every week,
>> right? It's in studio.
>> There was no one. And there was just
thread guy but for like 10 episodes and
he was doing not every week. So I was
like okay
and and I know live stream I consider
this completely different. I think live
stream has massive opportunity and that
>> actually much bigger than what I'm doing
here. But I'm not the I'm not DJing and
young enough to be like this live stream
guy. Like he would be perfect for that.
But the number one thing that you need
to understand about business is [ __ ]
consistency. So if you do a podcast or
live stream or whatever it should be
every week. If I do a podcast in studio,
it should be every freaking week with
the best guests. And what I realized is
obviously you're competing with our
attention, etc. But no one, it's too
hard. Like who wants to spend their life
in [ __ ] planes? Like I don't want to
do that, but I do it because someone has
to do it, right? And so there was Mika
doing three podcasts, there was thread
guy doing 13 podcast and after Andrew
Tate stopped. And I I I I felt it
because like these guys are going to
blow up because
>> I mean blow up like a crash out because
>> because taking all these planes is so
unsustainable if you're not mega uh
organized in advance lineup guests.
Understand that you should do one per
week because that's how you turn that
into a business with sponsors and all
that stuff. Like it's an entire content
machine. Like you can't just do one and
then disappear for a month and then
that's not a business, right? That's
like whatever content creation. So for
me like in this very specific format
that I think is everything because the
best sound quality and the best visual quality
quality >> totally
>> totally
>> like that's how people stop right
they're like oh [ __ ] the best trailers
and all this [ __ ] right and so I I
actually wanted to take that even
further with Gavin Wood this production
that is not even in that kind of studios
like we set up the studios for that a
bit like Chris Williamson right you set
up the studios
>> and so I'm I'm recording with Sergey
Nazarof from Chain Link and Avac founder
Avalanch founder on Thursday and same
I'm like how do we do the best freaking
production that people are like this is
almost like a [ __ ] movie right
>> and so I would say in that category that
there's not really anyone in also like
how do you do something that's
understandable by the people on YouTube
has two billion people
>> so if you understand
>> uh clickthrough rate and average watch
time which is everything for the video
be recommended basically thumbnail and
title And then conversation that needs
to be accessible enough. You need to
have this very simplistic conversation.
Otherwise, if it's too nerdy, like for
example, block bankers, they do an
amazing job. It's an amazing business,
but it's too nerdy and it's online. And
I don't there's no we're not going to
inspire anyone from outside of crypto to
come into crypto with these online Zoom
meetings. Like, we won't. Or you do live
stream, but I would argue live stream in studio.
studio.
>> Yeah. like uh like uh Aiden Ross with
freaking Donald Trump. Ah, but it's too
hard. Yeah, it's [ __ ] hard, but like
you [ __ ] do it. That's why you're
going to be successful.
>> Like, so yeah, I mean, it's so hard, but
like everything is hard. And I think
this business is probably the least hard
in this industry to be honest.
>> You do 52 weeks every every week.
>> Every week. And now we have this drop
series that John was on before. It's
it's kind of for upcoming founders. So
now we do two per week in studio. So I
have these drops and I have this this
>> but you'll go you'll do in like a month
you'll try to do like 40 you'll
>> not that many because at some point the
point is in crypto stale
>> how many how many big people in crypto 100
100
>> like and you always it's a business you
have to go higher and higher after I had
to and Chris Larson and Sergey and
Exactly right you're like [ __ ] like how
do I go higher I can't go too much lower
so I've only
>> exactly or vital but etherum people
don't give a [ __ ] right so how do you go
higher, you need to go to these people
that are I'm competing with I was I was
a month here in in in March in in the US
to do a 13 podcast with Pomp, with Toy,
with Chris Larrison, with everyone,
Scaramucci, etc. I'm literally competing
with Donald Trump for these people
attention because I'm it takes me months
to organize this. Then once they say
yes, it's not the hardest. The hardest
is they say yes, but then oh, let's do
it in six months. But I'm like guys, I'm
only here for one month and we need to
be in the studio at the same time. And
then three days, three days later, Trump
says, "Oh, uh, crypto summit at the
White House, all the [ __ ] podcast
canceled or postponed because I mean,
it's Donald Trump. Like, I'm [ __ ] No,
nobody, right? So, I'm like, man, like
[ __ ] that. Like, it's so hard. But it's
because it's so hard that it's also
valuable at some point.
>> Yeah, that's a that's a really good one.
>> Um, anyways,
talking about the masses, you announced
abstract on this podcast about a year ago.
ago.
>> Yeah. What is abstract if you had to
explain it to your mom?
>> I think abstract today is the consumer portal
portal
for the best and easiest
consumer experience today.
Abstract is very much portal. So for
those that are not familiar, abstract is
the chain. It's kind of like our
anthropic. It's our LLM. You know,
portal is the consumerf facing product.
It's basically this interface, this
one-stop destination where you can do
everything on chain. We're going to take
some really big swings at bat on portal
here over the coming months. We've been
working on a lot of big things
internally. Um the first couple of
months of abstracts launch were rough
because we basically launched at like
when the bull market was turning around.
Um and we and we launched poorly. We
weren't ready to launch. we just
launched just because we set a date and
we wanted to honor it rather than I
think trying to optimize for the best
launch. Um, and it's very much an ecosystem.
ecosystem.
And I was talking to the guys about this
cuz we're we're raising a round for
Abstract right now. Um, going to get the
community involved in some way. But
>> like I think our goal and our mission at
Abstract is to bring fun back to the EVM,
EVM,
>> right? EVM is super boring. There's
nothing to do. There's tens if not
hundred 100 plus billion dollars in
dormant ETH looking to participate and
do something fun. And NFTTS were that in
2020 2021.
Um I think we really successfully built
I think an amazing consumer terminal. I
know it's super successful because our
retention is through the roof. every
other blockchain is copying and creating
a similar style product. And now I think
we're at an inflection point where I
think portal needs its core killer
feature that's predicated around fun. Uh
and so I think we need to be building
the fun. I think our approach over the
last 6 months has been like other people
will come build fun. But I think we have
a unique opportunity to not only you
know galvanize people to come build the
fund on our chain but also for us to
kind of build the fund into the platform
and uh you know what is it today I think
it is the best consumer portal and
consumer experience in crypto it's the
best 0ero to one and if I were to tell
my grandma I would say you know go to
this website if you want to learn about
crypto go through the steps sign up log
in and experience what it feels like to
be on chain. But where I think it is and
where it needs to be, we are really
gonna try to take some big swings at bat
in terms of making portal really a
holistic product. Uh right now I think
it's just a a really great place to kind
of understand the ecosystem and
participate, but I don't think it's
creating those vectors that is creating
virality and hype etc. And those are
going to be kind of the strides that we
take over the next couple of months. So,
I'm excited for that. Um,
yeah, but building a blockchain I think
was a little bit harder than I thought because,
because,
you know, on one side there's there's
like the obvious like, oh, viral,
whatever, but then it's like, oh, this
person deploys on the chain and like I
don't know what his intentions are and
then he's like a rug puller. It that
part of it super interesting, you know,
cuz like
>> you know, somebody reached out to me.
There was a there was a protocol on
abstract that had so much hype and
momentum. I won't mention it. And I
loved it. I had so much fun. I I
genuinely loved it. And unfortunately,
like the, you know, it stopped doing so
well. Like it's down 95% from the top.
And guys are messaging me being like,
"Why did you endorse this? Be careful
what you endorse." And I'm like, "Dude,
I'm just here to support builders on my
chain, brother." You know, like I'm just
here to like I'm I'm not endorsing these
guys. I'm trying to support them because
if I don't support them, no one's
building on my chain, right? Like part
of the edge while you're a small
blockchain is like you got to you can
support people and cater to people
better than the next.
>> And then I'm supporting, you know, I
support a couple guys and then oh my
god, the prices have gone 90 down 95%.
That's the last thing I want to do. I
want to create wealth and opportunity
for my communities, right? And and then
then people are blaming me and then you
do that like three times in a row just
by quinkadinking, right? And then and
then it becomes a bigger cascade and
then you can't support guys who are
actually building and then maybe maybe
the solution is to just support your top
five guys but then you just become a
chain of five apps that you're just
pushing and then that doesn't that's not
fresh or new or exciting. That's the
part that I actually didn't really
factor in that it's really threading a
needle, which is partly why like I I
want to be responsible for what we can
control a little bit more in terms of
like some of the things that are on the
chain in the portal that are bringing
that fun and that attention and then
leave the discovery for a lot of other
people to kind of figure out.
It's, you know, I'm a super confident
person and every time I do something, I
know that I'm going to do it at the
highest level and I'm going to tell
people that I'm going to do it at the
highest level and I'm going to tell
people that I'm going to compete and
win. One to hold myself accountable, but
for other people to hold myself
accountable as well. Um, I think the
vision and the confidence around abstract
abstract
I've actually never been more confident
uh and never been more bullish on it.
But I did underestimate I think the
behemoth that building a blockchain is
because it's just like even I gave you
the forward- facing stuff on the back
end. It's like liquidity and what pairs
have what and incentivizing that and
like but you don't want to over
incentivize that because then you become
a farming chain and yeah it's really
easy for me to boost TVL through the
roof but that's dormant negative capital
that's just going to extract and create
chaos. You know there's a there's a lot
of lot of interesting things but I will
say this guy Saigar is a generational
talent. You know it was the one missing
piece in the igloo. We always needed a
technical Chad like a like like I think
I'm one of the best in the world at
marketing. Peter thinks he's one of the
best in the world at creative. Van
thinks he's one of the best in the world
in strategy. Saigar thinks he's one of
the he can go toe-to-toe with any
developer in the space and he manages an
amazing unit. That whole engineering
team is phenomenal. So the beauty I
think of where we are today is I know
exactly where we're going and how we're
going to compete. I think we have a
really great base and you know figuring
we've only been around 3 or 4 months,
I'm super proud of our accomplishments.
Now I think we're going to have to start
taking some more risks uh at least on
the portal on the platform feature risks
but you know ultimately I think all all
feature testing is good. Um, and then
you know our plan is to raise to really
kind of take this whole thing to the
next level cuz you know I think we have
enough you know in the pipeline being
built and enough I think currently on
the platform that I think it's time to
go and activate the marketing machine
and and do all of these things that I
think we're really good at to bring in
those net new users. Um, and so that's
kind of I think the focus for the next
two three months. You mentioned igloo.
There's igloo. There's py penguins.
There's abstract.
>> There's one more nobody knows about.
I can't I'm not going to say it on here,
but there's one more.
>> There's one more. I think quite a few
people are are confused actually
>> because there's multiple different things.
things.
>> What's the link between abstract and
pudgy penguins if there is any?
You know, I think a lot of I I think a
lot of people overthink it, right? I
think I think when you look at our
ecosystem, we are a team of super Chads.
We are amazing at what we do and we are
here to bring crypto to the masses. And
every part of the igloo feeds into that
mission and that vision. And they do
cross-pollinate. We have Pudgy Penguin
games that will be launching on
abstract. We have Pudgy Penguin products
that will be launching on abstract. We
have, you know, Pudgy Penguins, which is
it own standalone entity. You have
Pangu, which is the Salana token. But I
think too many people in crypto let some
bad take on Twitter from some peanut
gallery member box them in into like the
vision of what they want to be. I'm a
distribution maxi. I want to be the face
of penguins around the world. I am the
mascot of crypto. I am going to be
everywhere, right? I am going to be on
Abstract. I'm going to be on Salana. I'm
going to be on Ethereum. I'll be on
Bitcoin if I want to. I'll go be on
Polka Dot if that's what it needs to be.
Doesn't matter to us. I think a lot of
people are trying to like want there to
be this elaborate puzzle piece when it's
like no, we are building amazing
products with an amazing community.
Everyone who gets into our ecosystem
leaves it making money unless they just,
you know, quit early on, right? But
anybody who truly believes in this
ecosystem finds success and all of the
products tie into each other, but they
aren't built off of one another, right?
Like, how does Abstract and Pangu tie
into each other? Well, if you're a Pangu
community member, you're just going to
count on me to take care of you guys if
I have the opportunity to do it, right?
If you're a Pudgy Penguin NFT holder,
you already know what the game is,
right? You guys are my first believers.
You guys are my first edition
collectors. It's a smaller group, so
it's easier to reward them. You know,
obviously there's a million Pangu
holders, so it's kind of hard to
segment. Um and and abstract I think is
tackling a problem that is I think even
bigger than the the pudgy penguin in
terms of this idea that you know there
needs to be a consumer interface that
everybody uses to participate on chain
and but but again you know Pudgy
community grows they use abstract Pudgy
products built on abstract you know
Pudgy products also built on Telegram
Pudgy products also built on Ethereum
Pudgy products also built on Salon
We're not agnostic in that sense, but
our products have to win. Not because
we've created some elaborate Ponzi
scheme that makes them win. Our products
are going to win and our tokens are
going to win and our non-f fungeible
tokens are going to win by the integrity
of the brand and the products that those
individual assets represent. Right?
Pudgy Penguin Pangu is going to win not
because, you know, it might get some big
abstract airdrop in the future. It's
going to win because it's clocking in
400 million views on social. I'm going
to put this thing on your favorite
streaming network and you're going to go
and open up a Happy Meal one day and see
a big blue Pangoo. You know, like it's
going to win because of that. The NFT is
going to win because it's a small group
of some of the coolest, most affluent,
richest people in crypto. Everyone wants
to sit at the cool kids table at the
cafeteria. The Pudgy Penguins PFP is the
cool kids and it outperforms staked ETH
10 out of 10 times for the next 10
years. You have my word, it's just going
to happen, right? And then Abstract is
going to win and be a successful token
and be a successful platform because of
how of the integrity of the product that
we build and the integrity of the
ecosystem and the community that's
galvanized around it, not because it's
some proxy to Pangu. You know in my mind
like abstract has to launch you know
being the only competitor to base and it
should be a net more valuable token than
Pangu like I believe that right in terms
of you know how it's indexed at least in
the short term. In the long term I think
Pangu has the opportunity to flip Doge
and reach you know unattainable heights.
But that's kind of the mindset around
it. I think everyone wants there to be
some sort of elaborate scheme when it's
like no, we just build better products
and better communities and better brands
than I think anybody else in the space.
And to me, in a world where technology
is not a moat, which I don't think it
is. I think all of blockchain technology
is being commoditized, right? Like that
is where we're going to succeed. We're
going to succeed because Pudgy Penguins
is the best, because abstract is the
best, and because all these different
pieces in the ecosystem are just better
than other pieces in other ecosystems.
You just mentioned abstract uh sort of
valuation, right? I saw you mentioned
big numbers on some podcasts online
about abstract. You said it would launch
at multi-billion dollar valuation which
you already achieved with Pangu.
There have been some big changes in the
market structure over the last year.
Layer ones are launching at much lower
valuation they than they used to or at
least their valuation is correcting
quickly. Do not say dumping with haste
at launch.
I talked to Seb from Son who is a
neighbor to abstract in the consumer for
layer 2 kind of landscape. Son launched
at uh about $700 million FDV I think.
How realistic is your multi-billion
dollar abstract launch given how the
space has evolved and matured over the
last year? It's interesting cuz
abstract TGE and that token will be
priced on the success of the portal
super app more than it is the fact that
it's a blockchain. I think I think it's
going to be it it's like a a perfect
example of this is like World Chain is
like one of the great sleepers of the
blockchains out there. You should
definitely try to go get Sam Alman on
here if you're talking about moving up
the ranks. That'd be a that's a good
target for you.
>> I tried a few times but not easy. >> That's
>> That's
>> I got two intros but no answer. Yeah,
that that that's a that's a hard one,
but if you got that one. So, World Chain
is interesting. WorldChain is probably
one of the great sleeper agents in the
blockchain space. $20 billion L2, right?
L2, it's a, you know, conduit basically.
I mean, probably not a conduit rollup,
but the point of the matter is it's like
no different than any other L2, but it's
worth $20 billion. Sam Alman premium,
sure, you know, and then the
authenticity layer, civil resistance,
sure. where I really think they yield a
lot of that valuation or at least half
is in the world app and you know if you
ask the world chain foundation you know
how you know they'll say the world app
is the chain today right meaning the app
is the chain just like kind of like with
abstract you don't really use abstract
if you're not using portalabs atxyz
>> um and so I think and and I didn't I
world chain wasn't even on my radar
until 3 months ago and when some venture
investor who wanted to lead one of our
rounds or wanted to send us a term sheet
for a series 8 said he we were minded of
a similar build
and you know in principle portal our
vision for it has always been like a
super app one website where you can do
everything on chain right like that
sounds technically like a super app
you know if you were to look at
valuations today what are the two
biggest L2s in terms of valuation you
have world chain at 20 billion and if
base was a token based probably a $20
billion token, right? You probably put
it there. The abstract build is
somewhere in the middle. We are going
big iOS. So, we're building our iOS app.
We're going big on killer features on
the portal and building out features on
that portal. So, in the sense that we
share similarities with WorldChain, we
do in the sense that portal is the the
chain, world chain app is the chain or
world app is the chain. And then obviously,
obviously,
you know, base is going to be a
gargantuan. It's going to be a David
versus Goliath battle. No doubts about
that. But I think we can speak to
culture better than they can. Though, I
said this maybe when I f when I spoke to
you last, and I'll say it until the end
of time, no matter how corny people
think Jesse Pollock is, he is one of the
great builders in our space. And it's
not even close.
>> Absolutely. you know, like I can't I
can't point to three guys that I'd
rather have on my team than that guy,
truthfully. Um, so you're going to let
him cook and he's gonna But it's David
versus Goliath, right? Like that's how
we that's how we look at them. Um, and
and I look at our first year versus
their first year and I and and that
that's the roadmap that I'm following.
Um, but I think we will be comped if and
when abstract TGEs, I won't TGE it to
answer your question directly. I won't
TGE it if it's not evident that I'm not
getting comped somewhere in between the
middle of base and world chain, right?
Like abstract has to be like a base
world chain hybrid in terms of its build
and product set which I think you know
I'm not I'm not going to say it's
anywhere near them those two today cuz
you got to give credit where credit is
due. Base insane, world chain insane,
world app insane. But when I I'm you
know I told the the world with TG it in
quarter 4 that would be the plan as long
as we hit our goals whatever. But like
>> if I don't think it's a competitive and
if and it's in the conversation of world
and base I'm not TGing it just because I
said I'm I'm going to do it in a time.
No, I'm doing I'm trying to optimize for
maximum success here.
But for us to succeed, we actually have
to win. There's really like two cohorts
of crypto founders and I can't muster
the energy to be in like this other
cohort, but one cohort is like financial
engineering scheme schemers. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> And schemers is like a bad word cuz has
a negative connotation, but that's what
they are. They're schemers, right? They
know how to engineer the token. They
have, you know, they have a couple
hundred million in capital through a
couple different vehicles. The float is
lower than what it actually looks like.
They're listed everywhere. They're
buying out whatever airdrop they can.
They can control the float and just get
a perpetual bid for until the end of
time. That's like financial engineering
schemers, right? Which means like you
can launch a token without any
community, without any success, but you
can engineer its success on the top 100,
right? That's like
>> how much of crypto is that today?
>> Uh I would I could wise
>> I could tell you 35 35 to 50% of the top
100 coins are built like this. I would I
have thought even higher but
>> I I would say probably even higher. I
mean I let me change that probably 50 to 65
65
>> true and like some in the top is Cardano
is infamous for this you know what I
mean like you know it's one example but
there's many examples right you could
you easily say twothirds of the top
100's built like this the other but I'm
I'm not interested in that cohort
because like I I feel a lot I feel like
a lot of shame in that that doesn't like
that doesn't put me on the Mount Rush
that doesn't feed my ego so some people
like to think I'm an ego maniac sure but
that to feed my ego. So I don't want to
do it right. I actually want to win.
Like I want to sit there and compete and
then have value acrruel based on winning
because I also think the value is so
much more sustainable if you can
actually win. Like if base TGE that
thing would just rip forever, right? Cuz
you can't argue that it's like Salana.
It's going to rip forever, right? Um but but we actually want to I actually want
but we actually want to I actually want to win. Like I actually want to like I
to win. Like I actually want to like I want the da the data and the metrics and
want the da the data and the metrics and the users and the momentum to be
the users and the momentum to be competitive with base to be competitive
competitive with base to be competitive with world chain. If it's not, then like
with world chain. If it's not, then like I'm not going to sit here and TG
I'm not going to sit here and TG something and sell you like a snake oil
something and sell you like a snake oil salesman and be like, you know, we're
salesman and be like, you know, we're somewhere in between the middle of world
somewhere in between the middle of world chain and base. But like don't look at
chain and base. But like don't look at our dune analytics cuz they're like
our dune analytics cuz they're like 1/100th of theirs,
1/100th of theirs, >> right? I can tell you that's what we
>> right? I can tell you that's what we want to be now, right? But like I can't
want to be now, right? But like I can't go launch a token and be like that's my
go launch a token and be like that's my selling point. I want to launch a token
selling point. I want to launch a token and be like
and be like >> we we're we're half of where base is and
>> we we're we're half of where base is and we did it in in twothirds of the time.
we did it in in twothirds of the time. Mhm.
Mhm. >> Right. Like where are we going to be 2
>> Right. Like where are we going to be 2 years from now, right? And everyone's
years from now, right? And everyone's going to get super bullish. We're we're
going to get super bullish. We're we're we're half of where World Chain is, you
we're half of where World Chain is, you know, we did it in two/ird of the time.
know, we did it in two/ird of the time. You know, how bullish are you, right?
You know, how bullish are you, right? Like I want to be and I want to be able
Like I want to be and I want to be able to stand on that and people be like, "Oh
to stand on that and people be like, "Oh [ __ ] they did it again, right?" Rather
[ __ ] they did it again, right?" Rather than just like, could could you engineer
than just like, could could you engineer some sort of multi-billion dollar token?
some sort of multi-billion dollar token? For sure. If you understand the game,
For sure. If you understand the game, there's a group that understands the
there's a group that understands the game, you can do it. But I'm not
game, you can do it. But I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in
interested in that. I'm interested in actually winning the thing.
actually winning the thing. um which is uh going to be the hard part
um which is uh going to be the hard part of this journey unfortunately. We
of this journey unfortunately. We actually want to do it right
actually want to do it right >> and do something actually.
>> and do something actually. >> Yeah, we'll be a first.
>> Yeah, we'll be a first. >> Let's link the abstract lounge to the
>> Let's link the abstract lounge to the Pangu launch. There's been a fair amount
Pangu launch. There's been a fair amount of criticism we mentioned before about
of criticism we mentioned before about the Pengu. I was actually one of these
the Pengu. I was actually one of these people
people >> who criticized the I mean criticized in
>> who criticized the I mean criticized in a constructive fashion.
a constructive fashion. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> The distribution.
>> The distribution. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And I got murdered online. I mean, I
>> And I got murdered online. I mean, I understand the game. Too many tokens
understand the game. Too many tokens given to many people who aren't
given to many people who aren't long-term community members and who just
long-term community members and who just dumped at lounge. I mean, you have a
dumped at lounge. I mean, you have a different argument, which is, hey, if
different argument, which is, hey, if only the token the NFT holder hold it,
only the token the NFT holder hold it, then people don't want to buy it, right?
then people don't want to buy it, right? >> So, it's a it's it's a good take. Let me
>> So, it's a it's it's a good take. Let me let me address it cuz you you did have
let me address it cuz you you did have some valid criticisms to it. And in
some valid criticisms to it. And in principle, functionally, I'll tell you
principle, functionally, I'll tell you the bet that I'm making. You're
the bet that I'm making. You're functionally right. Right. Like like is
functionally right. Right. Like like is is Pangu trading higher today if the
is Pangu trading higher today if the airdrop isn't that massive? Yes.
airdrop isn't that massive? Yes. >> Did I feel totally disrespected and
>> Did I feel totally disrespected and dudes just completely abused that
dudes just completely abused that Penguin and that free money we gave him?
Penguin and that free money we gave him? Yes.
Yes. >> Right. The bet that I'm making is this.
>> Right. The bet that I'm making is this. I'm making the bet that when those green
I'm making the bet that when those green candles start ripping and mania starts
candles start ripping and mania starts ripping that little those fractions
ripping that little those fractions because there's still fractions in
because there's still fractions in everyone's wallet. Everyone's wallet has
everyone's wallet. Everyone's wallet has a little bit. So part of it was like
a little bit. So part of it was like almost like a product placement, right?
almost like a product placement, right? And so one it was goodwill. If Pangu is
And so one it was goodwill. If Pangu is actually gonna flip Doge, right? It it
actually gonna flip Doge, right? It it has to have a story. The story for
has to have a story. The story for Pangu, its inception was for the people
Pangu, its inception was for the people by the people. That might just sound
by the people. That might just sound like a tagline right now, but in retail
like a tagline right now, but in retail mania,
mania, >> that is a story that the masses can
>> that is a story that the masses can really galvanize around, right? So the
really galvanize around, right? So the bet that I was trying to do was like I
bet that I was trying to do was like I wasn't trying to launch a $2 billion
wasn't trying to launch a $2 billion token and that be the ceiling and that
token and that be the ceiling and that be it forever. I'm going after the big
be it forever. I'm going after the big kahuna. I'm going after Doge. You might
kahuna. I'm going after Doge. You might look at that and other people might look
look at that and other people might look at that and be like, "This kid is nuts.
at that and be like, "This kid is nuts. You'll never flip Doge." Well, I'm
You'll never flip Doge." Well, I'm trying to set the pieces up and tell the
trying to set the pieces up and tell the story so that we have the opportunity to
story so that we have the opportunity to because I don't believe Doge can retain
because I don't believe Doge can retain number one. I don't believe in this
number one. I don't believe in this Dinocoin meta. I think that's so lame. I
Dinocoin meta. I think that's so lame. I think that's so lame that these things
think that's so lame that these things just because they were around for 10
just because they were around for 10 years, they're priced more than all the
years, they're priced more than all the new great innovations and people pushing
new great innovations and people pushing the boundaries. I think that's so
the boundaries. I think that's so stupid. And so from my perspective, like
stupid. And so from my perspective, like did I feel the pain? Yes. Did you feel
did I feel the pain? Yes. Did you feel the pain and other holders feel the
the pain and other holders feel the pain? Yes. But I also think, dude,
pain? Yes. But I also think, dude, before the market gave out, Kevin, like
before the market gave out, Kevin, like the thing was up and to the right.
the thing was up and to the right. >> That's true.
>> That's true. >> It went down a bit and it was
>> It went down a bit and it was >> it was down. No, it was doing the whole
>> it was down. No, it was doing the whole stairway to heaven thing. It was dipping
stairway to heaven thing. It was dipping for two days and then hitting new highs
for two days and then hitting new highs the next 3 days. And it's like, when's
the next 3 days. And it's like, when's the last time you ever saw an airdrop
the last time you ever saw an airdrop with even a fraction of that size of
with even a fraction of that size of magnitude go up? And the reason it was
magnitude go up? And the reason it was going up was because we blessed
going up was because we blessed everyone. They loved it. Everyone loved
everyone. They loved it. Everyone loved it. Everyone was shilling Pangu.
it. Everyone was shilling Pangu. Everyone was aligned. It was like, you
Everyone was aligned. It was like, you want to know our biggest mistake for
want to know our biggest mistake for abstract was right after Pangu, we
abstract was right after Pangu, we should have raised an echo round. Why?
should have raised an echo round. Why? Cuz like you'll look at like something
Cuz like you'll look at like something like Mega ETH, for example. It's like so
like Mega ETH, for example. It's like so smart because it's like all of CTS are
smart because it's like all of CTS are bag holders, right? Same principle
bag holders, right? Same principle applies to this. At a certain point,
applies to this. At a certain point, everyone was a bag holder of Pangoo. So
everyone was a bag holder of Pangoo. So everyone was shilling it, dude.
everyone was shilling it, dude. >> Except they got it for free. where was
>> Except they got it for free. where was where's the echor round would be people
where's the echor round would be people invested a
invested a >> agreed agreed so to a certain extent but
>> agreed agreed so to a certain extent but like I also wanted to give penguins the
like I also wanted to give penguins the biggest percentage airdrop that so apes
biggest percentage airdrop that so apes gave apes I think 10 or 15% I wanted to
gave apes I think 10 or 15% I wanted to beat that in terms of rewarding the
beat that in terms of rewarding the community by like a big mile I can't
community by like a big mile I can't give 20 25% to pudgy penguin holders and
give 20 25% to pudgy penguin holders and then and then the whole token is just
then and then the whole token is just cashing out pudgy penguin holders salana
cashing out pudgy penguin holders salana nobody galvanizes around that that thing
nobody galvanizes around that that thing got the engagement It did the virality.
got the engagement It did the virality. It did cuz people were like, "Bro, he's
It did cuz people were like, "Bro, he's giving tokens to everyone."
giving tokens to everyone." >> And like, dude, guys do air drops for
>> And like, dude, guys do air drops for 200 million and the tokens down only.
200 million and the tokens down only. Dude, up until Trump and Melania, we
Dude, up until Trump and Melania, we were going to we were going to go flip
were going to we were going to go flip ship. I we were right there, right? And
ship. I we were right there, right? And then the market gave out.
then the market gave out. >> I would just say the this came maybe a
>> I would just say the this came maybe a month or two after Hyperlquid, right?
month or two after Hyperlquid, right? >> Who did that kind of I mean playbook on
>> Who did that kind of I mean playbook on a lot of things. One of them is
a lot of things. One of them is rewarding very early participant who
rewarding very early participant who making them rich probably most of them
making them rich probably most of them are already rich therefore won't d the
are already rich therefore won't d the token right
token right >> and so I actually had I did this kind of
>> and so I actually had I did this kind of thread and people kind of murdered me
thread and people kind of murdered me and I was just saying actually I don't
and I was just saying actually I don't consider myself two year two years NFD
consider myself two year two years NFD holder an early NF holder I think the
holder an early NF holder I think the people who redpeilled me
people who redpeilled me >> even before I had you on the podcast
>> even before I had you on the podcast like Alex Vanic they deserve they're
like Alex Vanic they deserve they're already rich but they deserve the
already rich but they deserve the freaking airdrop because they they were
freaking airdrop because they they were here since many many years Right. And I
here since many many years Right. And I when I when I wrote that, I had some Py
when I when I wrote that, I had some Py Penguin OG's reaching out in my DMs
Penguin OG's reaching out in my DMs privately
privately >> and telling me that they were thinking
>> and telling me that they were thinking about selling their NFT. And at that
about selling their NFT. And at that moment, I was like, "Oh shit." And
moment, I was like, "Oh shit." And actually, even me, I had I have
actually, even me, I had I have multiple. I was like, "Do I want to keep
multiple. I was like, "Do I want to keep my NFTs when I feel like because we had
my NFTs when I feel like because we had this hyperlquid example, right? When I
this hyperlquid example, right? When I feel like I'm
feel like I'm >> either I hold the tokens, but I get
>> either I hold the tokens, but I get dumped on by everyone else. either I
dumped on by everyone else. either I mean what's the where is the reward for
mean what's the where is the reward for the people who've been here for four
the people who've been here for four years not really feeling or not really
years not really feeling or not really there I mean obviously they received a
there I mean obviously they received a lot of money but if they're getting
lot of money but if they're getting dumped on because they're the believer
dumped on because they're the believer and they don't sell then the whole kind
and they don't sell then the whole kind of dynamic is kind of twisted I would
of dynamic is kind of twisted I would say so the question is I mean for for a
say so the question is I mean for for a day I was like [ __ ] man and then I just
day I was like [ __ ] man and then I just thought in Luca we trust
thought in Luca we trust >> because that's what I've been doing
>> because that's what I've been doing since the beginning right
since the beginning right >> what did you learn from the penu lounge
>> what did you learn from the penu lounge that you will very differently for the
that you will very differently for the abstract token launch.
abstract token launch. >> I think
you know it's an interesting take because I think
it's an interesting take because I think we didn't we didn't use Hyperlid as our
we didn't we didn't use Hyperlid as our barometer. I thought it was like two
barometer. I thought it was like two different things relatively like for us
different things relatively like for us Pangu the story that we had to tell
Pangu the story that we had to tell right was this is the thing to bring
right was this is the thing to bring everyone into the huddle right it had to
everyone into the huddle right it had to it's a ma we're a mass market brand
it's a ma we're a mass market brand right and I felt like we had to embody
right and I felt like we had to embody that and I just believe that if Pangu
that and I just believe that if Pangu ever flips Doge that
ever flips Doge that how it started
how it started will play a huge part in that. I believe
will play a huge part in that. I believe that and that I think was the nucleus of
that and that I think was the nucleus of the strategy. I think
the strategy. I think >> did certain holders feel spided?
>> did certain holders feel spided? >> I think
>> I think I think you totally I totally understand
I think you totally I totally understand your perspective.
your perspective. >> People could just buy the NFT
>> People could just buy the NFT beforehand. I mean then obviously they
beforehand. I mean then obviously they buy more expensive, right? And then the
buy more expensive, right? And then the whole there's the whole price dynamic.
whole there's the whole price dynamic. But
But >> I concrete it means hey I've been here
>> I concrete it means hey I've been here for four years. I mean, I I haven't I've
for four years. I mean, I I haven't I've been here for 2 years. But people were
been here for 2 years. But people were been here since the freaking bare market
been here since the freaking bare market and they bought the thing when it was
and they bought the thing when it was worth almost nothing.
worth almost nothing. >> There's one thing I'll tell you, and
>> There's one thing I'll tell you, and this is probably the only time I'm going
this is probably the only time I'm going to say it because I'm not going to say
to say it because I'm not going to say it when everyone's speculating, but I'm
it when everyone's speculating, but I'm not going to let you do this thing where
not going to let you do this thing where you can buy my Penguin one day before
you can buy my Penguin one day before the airrop and get the thing. I'm not
the airrop and get the thing. I'm not doing that this time.
doing that this time. >> So, there's that that that was one of my
>> So, there's that that that was one of my big learnings because I hated that. I
big learnings because I hated that. I hated that guys. Now granted the floor
hated that guys. Now granted the floor price went up and like you know there
price went up and like you know there will be a time where like you should get
will be a time where like you should get that whole NFT run up around that
that whole NFT run up around that speculation but like one day before it's
speculation but like one day before it's not going to happen that way.
not going to happen that way. >> It's not going to happen one day before.
>> It's not going to happen one day before. So my advice to the people listening is
So my advice to the people listening is like you want to get your Pudgy now
like you want to get your Pudgy now before you get it when everybody's
before you get it when everybody's clamoring in to get it because I didn't
clamoring in to get it because I didn't appreciate that. They kind of like
appreciate that. They kind of like abused the penguin. It felt I felt like
abused the penguin. It felt I felt like we got abused
we got abused >> completely. You see the you see the NFT
>> completely. You see the you see the NFT price going. I felt you I felt used. I
price going. I felt you I felt used. I felt used and I felt and I and and I
felt used and I felt and I and and I feel like certain community members felt
feel like certain community members felt used. I feel like a lot of people felt
used. I feel like a lot of people felt used.
used. >> Uh and I don't I didn't appreciate that.
>> Uh and I don't I didn't appreciate that. And I can tell you there was a moment
And I can tell you there was a moment there when I was down only. There's a
there when I was down only. There's a lot of things I learned and there's and
lot of things I learned and there's and and I'm going to make sure
and I'm going to make sure cuz you know you even me you even
cuz you know you even me you even messaged me.
messaged me. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> Like the time in which we did it. Dude,
>> Like the time in which we did it. Dude, if I had like three more weeks I could
if I had like three more weeks I could have been way more thoughtful, right?
have been way more thoughtful, right? Like there was like I gave too much
Like there was like I gave too much money to like I could have gave more
money to like I could have gave more money to certain communities that I
money to certain communities that I should have gave money to that I didn't
should have gave money to that I didn't or or to you know certain key figures
or or to you know certain key figures and things like that. We just didn't
and things like that. We just didn't have the time.
have the time. >> It was so not you know so I'm going to
>> It was so not you know so I'm going to I'm going to I'm I'm working on the
I'm going to I'm I'm working on the abstract TG thoroughly starting like
abstract TG thoroughly starting like July, you know. I'm going to have six
July, you know. I'm going to have six months if I do launch it in quarter 4.
months if I do launch it in quarter 4. I'm going to have six months to figure
I'm going to have six months to figure it out. uh and do it right. And I think
it out. uh and do it right. And I think just any of those hiccups or those
just any of those hiccups or those feelings and things where like a why
feelings and things where like a why didn't he do it this way or do it that
didn't he do it this way or do it that way. I still stand on get on having 6
way. I still stand on get on having 6 million eligible a lot. I still stand on
million eligible a lot. I still stand on that because dude it is the only airdrop
that because dude it is the only airdrop of that size that literally went up into
of that size that literally went up into the right. I'm telling you it was
the right. I'm telling you it was because of the airdrop. Now when the
because of the airdrop. Now when the market flipped dude telling you Trump
market flipped dude telling you Trump Melania spy down 25%. Let don't
Melania spy down 25%. Let don't overthink it. Don't think that don't
overthink it. Don't think that don't think it was like some dudes. I did
think it was like some dudes. I did catch a couple sibbles running claims
catch a couple sibbles running claims and that's why we shut down the claim
and that's why we shut down the claim early cuz we got real data that like
early cuz we got real data that like there was a there was a couple guys who
there was a there was a couple guys who made you know a couple million dollars
made you know a couple million dollars who did but like trust me when I say the
who did but like trust me when I say the data like that was the right strategy to
data like that was the right strategy to me. I think there was a level of
me. I think there was a level of thoughtfulness around certain
thoughtfulness around certain organizations or people or groups within
organizations or people or groups within the community that I could have done a
the community that I could have done a lot better job in terms of rewarding and
lot better job in terms of rewarding and making feel special because they are the
making feel special because they are the heart of this entire ecosystem. I could
heart of this entire ecosystem. I could have done a better job there. Uh but
have done a better job there. Uh but that was just the nature of time and the
that was just the nature of time and the sprint. And I'm also I also felt maybe
sprint. And I'm also I also felt maybe the same way that you did and you know
the same way that you did and you know you drive from this as you want like I
you drive from this as you want like I felt used and abused there for a minute
felt used and abused there for a minute especially when things started going
especially when things started going down. I felt like they kind of ate me up
down. I felt like they kind of ate me up and just kind of threw me to the
and just kind of threw me to the wayside. I didn't like that. And you
wayside. I didn't like that. And you know, if you felt that way or if other
know, if you felt that way or if other community members felt that way, just
community members felt that way, just know that I'm conscious of that. And I'm
know that I'm conscious of that. And I'm going to make sure that for this next
going to make sure that for this next one, uh, I'm really hyperfocusing on my
one, uh, I'm really hyperfocusing on my core nucleus, my power users, my top 1%
core nucleus, my power users, my top 1% 2%, my hyperlid, top 1% 2%, and making
2%, my hyperlid, top 1% 2%, and making sure that it goes to those guys and the
sure that it goes to those guys and the people who are buying the dips. And, you
people who are buying the dips. And, you know, I wanted to be a lot more
know, I wanted to be a lot more methodical with the data, but like I
methodical with the data, but like I respect the person buying now, not the
respect the person buying now, not the person who's buying, you know, 2 days
person who's buying, you know, 2 days before TGE. I don't I I that that person
before TGE. I don't I I that that person I don't care about, right? I care about
I don't care about, right? I care about the person who's buying the dips now. Uh
the person who's buying the dips now. Uh and I I'm I'm recording all this data
and I I'm I'm recording all this data and you're seeing we're giving out soul
and you're seeing we're giving out soul bounds. We're getting really methodical
bounds. We're getting really methodical with this cuz we're we're going to learn
with this cuz we're we're going to learn from all of the mistakes on the on the
from all of the mistakes on the on the Penangu one.
Penangu one. >> Thank you so much, Luca, for this
>> Thank you so much, Luca, for this amazing
amazing um honesty and passion as usual.
um honesty and passion as usual. >> Yeah. Thanks for having
>> Yeah. Thanks for having >> time to buy more Py Penguin.
>> time to buy more Py Penguin. >> Thanks for your honesty and passion.
>> Thanks for your honesty and passion. [Music]
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