This episode of "This Week in Space" covers recent space news, including a successful medical evacuation from the ISS and the rollout of the Artemis 2 rocket, and features an in-depth discussion with former NASA Chief Historian Roger Lanius about the history of space exploration, public perception, and the challenges of preserving space history in the digital age.
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Coming up on this week in space, NASA's
first ever medical evacuation of the
International Space Station is a
success. Artemis 2 is finally rolling
out to the launch pad. And if you've
ever wondered how we chronicle the space
age, well, we got former NASA chief
historian Roger Liius to come tell the
tale. Tune in. You won't want to miss it.
it.
>> Podcasts you love
>> from people you trust.
This is Turkey.
>> This is This Week in Space, episode
number 193, recorded on January 16th, 2026.
2026.
A history of tomorrow.
Hello and welcome to yet another episode
of This Week in Space. The history of
tomorrow edition. >> Tomorrow.
>> Tomorrow.
>> Tomorrow. I'm Rod Pile, editor and chief
of a magazine, and I'm here with the man
in the can, Tark Malikos.com.
>> Hello. Hello, Rod. Hello, space people.
Happy birthday, Yas mean to my sister.
It's her birthday today. Yay.
>> Wow. Keep overdriving that mic, man.
We're right there with you. This week,
we're going to be chatting with Roger
Liius, Dr. Roger Lanias, the former
chief historian at NASA headquarters and
former associate director of collections
and curation at the Smithsonian
Institution. So, this guy knows his
space history. Actually, he knows a
whole lot of stuff, but he really,
really, really knows the space history.
So, this is this is going to be a fun one.
one.
>> Yeah. Before we get there though, please
don't forget to do us a solid. Make sure
to like, subscribe, and the other things
you could do to support podcasts on your
favorite podcaster. Actually, go to all
of them. Give us good reviews on Apple.
>> He said support podcast. Support our podcast.
podcast.
>> Our podcast. Sorry, I thought I said
your favorite podcast. But yeah,
whatever you could do to to make sure
that people like us. We're we're getting
good ratings, but we can always use
more. And now
a space joke.
>> I'm ready.
>> Hey, T.
>> Yes, Rod.
>> What did Voyager sing on its way to
Jupiter's moons?
>> Uh, I don't know what Io
off to work I go.
>> I love it. I love it. That's a good one.
Did we do that before?
>> I don't I don't think so.
>> By the way, you ever you ever watch um
you ever watch that Sean Connory movie
where he's like a sheriff on Outland?
Yeah, it's a very good one. Very
recently underrated. Underrated.
>> Very underrated. Uh although it is
interesting their idea of of high-tech
is uh green monochrome monitors on
curved screens that are shaped like TVs
from the ' 50s. But that's okay. And by
the way, the joke was mine.
>> That was yours.
>> I made that up. I made that up. Now,
however, I've heard that some people
want to use us.
>> Oh no. I've heard that some people want
to use us as drill bits into Europa's
ice crust when it's joke time in this
show. That was tortured. But you can
help by sending us your best, worst, or
most of space joke at twistt twit.tv and
we will read it on on the the the air
online on streaming. And thank you
viferously for it because you didn't
have to hear one of MySpace jokes. And
now it's time to go to headline news.
Headline news.
>> So, I heard something about some kind of
crew coming back from the International
Space Station a little early for some reason.
reason.
>> You think you might have heard something
about that, right? I think um and you
know what really bums me out is I was in
Houston this week cuz I was on a panel
there for a a screening and you know the
one twoight span of time that I leave
California we get the first in easily a
decade re-entry over California
streaking from horizon to horizon across
the sky and I had to miss it and I am so bummed.
bummed.
>> Oh man, the the video is pretty cool. We
actually got some of that video on the
site uh uh today and it's pretty
exciting to see
>> the site being space.com.
>> space.com like it's the only site that
anyone needs to think about right now.
>> Oh god.
>> I believe there's one called this week
in tech.tv.
>> So uh so yeah, this this is this was the
week my friends. Uh the first ever
medical evacuation from the
International Space Station is uh is
complete. Uh NASA astronauts Mike Frink,
Xena Cardman, and uh Japanese astronaut
Kamya Yui and uh Russian cosminaut
Platinoff returned to Earth with a
pretty smooth and fairly nominal uh
splashdown on their crew Dragon Endeavor
spacecraft. Uh SpaceX and their recovery
teams with NASA were there within the
hour as they typically are. I mean, it
was from uh start to finish a very kind
of run-of-the-mill uh return of
Splashdown with the only exception that
they came back home a month early
because of some sort of undisclosed
medical issue with one of the four
astronauts. We're probably not ever
going to know exactly uh what went wrong
and with who, but we know that it was
serious enough uh for them to come home,
but not serious enough to drop
everything and come home the same day.
So, it's somewhere in the middle there.
uh afterward, you know, uh Jared
Isaacman, NASA administrator, said that
the the crew member that was affected
was fine, uh in good shape, you know,
basically uh and doing well. And all
four of them went to a hospital in San
Diego for the day, uh on um that was
Thursday, the day before that we're
recording this podcast, uh for medical
checks and and treatment, etc. before
coming home. Uh they should be arriving
at the uh the Johnson Space Center as
we're speaking uh and recording this
podcast today. So, so that's done. The
the the latest in a string of of kind of
space issues uh of different countries
uh recently, but uh but that's finished
in in the can and now we know what
happens if someone has to come home
quickly uh from the space station. Rod,
>> and they they still haven't told us what
the problem was or who it was with. I I
think I did shoot you a message. I was
looking at some video feed from it and
it did look to me and of course it's
it's low res so it's hard to tell. It
looked like one of the astronauts had an
IV feed coming out of the sleeve of
their space suit, but it's almost
impossible to tell, but I did see that
dangling around as they were getting
ready to reenter. All right,
>> Artemis 2 roll out. Yeah, finally.
>> Tomorrow, tomorrow, as we're recording
this, today is as we're recording this,
January 16th, uh on January 17th, NASA
is finally ready to roll out their
second mega rocket uh with Artemis 2.
And uh we've got our own writer Josh
Dinner. Hey Josh, if you're listening to
this um down at the Kennedy Space Center
uh for this uh it should take um you
know about uh 8 to 10 hours for the uh
Space Launch System uh to roll out to
Launchpad 39B at the Kennedy Space
Center. NASA will have live coverage
with like video uh usually for the
start, but hopefully they'll have it for
the entire time. I'm not sure. and uh
and this is it, you know, hopefully this
really we're really finally going to get
to the moon uh w with this mission and
these astronauts. Uh so there's a but
it's it's it's going to be really tight.
The first window for this mission is
February 6th through the 10th uh which
is as we're recording this podcast like
less than 3 weeks away and NASA says
that they're not going to do a fueling
test of the rocket until February 2nd.
that does not leave a lot of time rotten
at all. Especially if you assume that
something might go wrong either in
buckling this the the rocket down uh
getting all of its systems uh all linked
up doing diagnostic testing while
they've launched this rocket and Orion
before when they did this back in in
2022. It was uncrrewed and it was a very
different Orion and uh and a different
uh SLS. They've made some tweaks to
avoid those pesky leaks that we were
talking about before the show, Rod. And
uh and so now we it's time to see if all
of those things work. The crew is going
to be out there, Reed Wisman, um
Christina Cook, Vic Glover, and uh
Jeremy Hansen. They're going to be out
there to to do like a soup to nuts uh
inspection and familiarization and
probably a dress rehearsal again on the
pad. Uh and all of that has to happen in
the next 3 weeks. And there just doesn't
seem like a lot of time if one little
thing looks like it's out of family or
or or you know sideways uh to to be able
to to make that window. But they they
NASA had a press conference today and
they seemed like they were committed and
they they were very annoyed and took
issue when folks were asking if they
were rushing for that window.
>> Yeah, I guess that makes sense. And uh
our last story, one ringy dingy, two
ringy dingy. Maven, can you hear me? Are
we going to get Maven back? Yeah, today
is the first day uh that NASA has to try
to reestablish contact with the Maven uh
spacecraft around Mars. Uh our Eagle
listeners might recall that back in
December NASA lost contact with the the
Maven uh spacecraft, the orbiter. This
is a an atmospheric uh uh studying spa
uh spacecraft to kind of find out where
Mars's water went and uh and to
understand the volatiles. That's what
the V stands for in Maven. uh uh went uh
over time from Mars, but it's it's been
at Mars for quite some time. It's in an
extended mission. Uh and it fell silent
when it went around the backside of Mars
uh and was out of communication with the
with the Earth. That was a while ago
back in December. Now, here we are in
January. Uh the Mars has come out of
solar conjunction, which means that it
was behind the sun uh as viewed from uh
from the Earth. And and so now we can
get signals to and from Mars regularly.
And the hope is that they'll be able to
wake this this up. Now, Space News
reports that the scientists just they're
not very optimistic uh about the chances
right now because they were trying in
December. They're going to try again and
give it the um you know, the old college
best, but uh it's it's it seems like
this spacecraft might be down for the count.
count.
>> Do they think it's still tumbling?
>> Uh well, it was it is it was before and
there's no cause to think that things
could have changed themselves. Now, if
they get a signal that says, "Hey, I
woke up and uh and I was all out of
sorts and I fixed myself," that that
would be one thing. I think though that
if they would have gotten that quickly,
because it only takes like what, a half
an hour for for roundtrip signals right
now between us and Mars,
>> they would have said something by now.
And and so it is still early days. This
is the first day. NASA typically tries
for two weeks uh and that before before
uh uh you know either admitting defeat
or or making a final call uh to decide
and and it's it's had a good life. I
remember being there when Maven entered
orbit around Mars with Jim Green, friend
of the show. And
>> yeah, I wonder, you know, when a
spacecraft is tumbling, I suppose it
depends on the period of the of the
rotation. But I wonder how much time
because, you know, the the signal will
come into phase and then you'll have it
fat and then it'll go out of phase or
out of out of contact. I wonder how much
time you need to get enough data up
there to tell it to arrest the tumble if
indeed it can. Yeah. And and that that
that assumes that it's in a fashion in a
state where it's actually either ready
to accept or send a signal. If it
suffered like a hard fail, it could just
be a hunk of junk floating in space
right now and we wouldn't know. So
>> shades of Viking one that's still still
waiting on the surface of Mars with its
little nuclear battery waiting for that
last signal from Earth telling it what
to do that will never come. Was Was was
I a good lander? No, Viking one. I'm
told you were the best.
>> We're not going to talk to you anymore.
All right. Uh we will be back with Dr.
Roger Lanias in just a few minutes, so
stay with us.
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All right, Space Force, back to you. And
we are back with Dr. Roger Lanius. So,
I've got a whole paragraph here for
credits. former NASA chief historian,
senior curator and associate director
for collections and curatorial affairs
at the Smithsonian. He was on the worked
with the uh Colombia accident
investigation board.
Fellow of a number of distinguished
organizations such as AIAA, AAA and
others that are too many to list here.
recipient of multiple NASA awards and
commendations and most importantly
perhaps writer of blurbs for some of my
favorite books of the question
questionably emerging space author like
me. So much thanks for that. And when
you're I don't know what is your next
book going to be number 35? Where are
you now?
>> Yeah, I've lost count. It doesn't really
matter anymore.
>> I think I counted like 22. So you're
ahead of me. But hey, if you ever need a
blurb from a belist author, I'm here for
you. Oh, we could all achieve such
heights, you know. So,
>> well, exactly.
>> I'm so jealous. I don't got one in my
belt. So,
>> so, um, T has a question that he needs
to ask you and then I'll then I'll move
on to mine.
>> Yeah. You know, uh, thank you, uh, uh,
Roger for, and it's great to talk to you
again. I think the last time we spoke,
uh, was when I was still a writer at
space. Um, but, uh, you know, one of the
questions I like to ask everybody is
kind of like their path to space. you
know, how um how they they they they've
they found that bug. If it's something
that that grabbed you when you were uh a
kid, or was it something as has happened
that that that you found uh either in
university or in your adulthood to find
that path uh to to space that has led to
the career that you've had?
>> Yeah. Well, I mean, my my career path
was sort of an accident, but my interest
in space goes back a long time. When I
was a kid in the 1960s, we were
following Mercury, Gemini, Apollo
programs. I was old enough to read just
to watch those first moon landings. And
and uh I also learned that as a kid I
could write a letter to uh NASA and they
would send me stuff.
>> Oh yeah.
>> I never even thought to do that. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Mission patches, you know, you name that
kind of stuff. And I and I figured out
that there were multiple centers and if
I wrote to the difference, they would
send me different things.
>> Oh, you're clever.
>> Oh my goodness. I wish I still had that stuff.
stuff.
>> But uh but be that as it may, I I was
excited by it when I was uh when I was a
kid growing up in the 60s and early 70s.
But you know, I sort of went away from
it for a while and didn't pursue it in
graduate school. It wasn't my primary interest.
interest.
>> Interesting. And then when I finished my
PhD, I went looking for a job and found
one working for the Air Force.
Not not space, but uh but airplanes was
pretty cool, too. And uh and then I made
a transition to NASA in 1990 after I had
been working for the Air Force for a
number of years. >> Wow.
>> Wow.
>> Uh and that sort of set me on the path
to do space history.
So, I guess one thing I've always tried
to get my head around ever since I
learned that there were such things as
chief historians for both headquarters
and NASA field centers. What's a day in
the life of a NASA chief historian like?
>> You know, it's uh I mean the the NASA
history program does essentially three
things. The first thing is to collect
documentation about the history of the
agency. The second is to preserve that
and make it available. And the third uh
piece of this is to is to disseminate
knowledge about this pro this effort.
And um so the first part of that is
mostly about archival activities and and
the headquarters office that I was
responsible for had an archavist there
and some contract people who did work
for us along those lines. Uh and uh
there was a constant effort to collect
materials. Uh the dissemination came in
a variety of forms. Uh the preservation
of course was a big piece of this. We
want to make sure that it's available
for future generations. But uh the
dissemination of it can take all kinds
of forms. Historically the NASA history
program has been built around um
publications in a uh in a ve in a very
real sense. You know books and articles
and things of this nature. When I got
there in 1990,
uh within a very short period of time,
we started to see the you know the
digital age emerge and the placement of
uh information online and NASA got very
heavily involved in that very early on
trying to to u uh maintain websites and
and data centers that were accessible by
people remotely that uh that we got
involved in as well. in terms of the
NASA history program. So, the
dissemination took a form beyond the the
printed word to ones that were
electronic and online.
>> And and you were you were NASA's chief
historian, am I am I correct? Until
about is it 2002 2001? Is that
>> 20 2002? I was there for 12 years.
>> Yeah. And then you transitioned over to
the Smithsonian. Was was there culture
shock between going between like I guess
like the history makers to the history
archivists kind of thing there or is it
more like an adventure where you get to
mess around with all the stuff?
>> Well, I mean, so, you know, I spent 12
years in NASA headquarters and that's
probably long enough for a person to sit
in the same job. Uh, at least that's how
I felt at the time. And so, when I was
called uh by the folks at the National
Air and Space Museum, would you be
interested? they say. Um, and maybe they
caught me on a little bit of a bad day.
And, uh, and it was a pretty easy
process to say, "Yeah, I'm interested."
Uh, that's that's a cool opportunity
there as well. And in terms of talking
to uh, a broad audience, there's none
broader than what you see uh, at the
Smithsonian with literally millions of
visitors a year.
>> So, I've got a two-part question that
may have some thorns in it. We'll see.
Um, there's a lot of talk, and I'm
guilty of it myself, of us coming into a
second space age. You know, you and I
grew up during the first space age. I
think we're almost the same age, and now
arguably, we're in a second very
different space age. So, I think my
question is,
uh, how do you feel about that in broad
terms? Is that a pro proper
classification? And then I want to talk
about public attitudes towards both
space ages if that's what we decide.
Yeah. Well, I mean, uh, I mean, the
space age came and it hasn't gone away.
So, in in terms of a second space age, I
I I'm not sure I accept the terminology.
I think there's been a transition in the
type of uh space activities that's taken
place. And we've really seen it, you
know, since the beginning of the 21st
century with the rise of of commercial
actors in ways that they hadn't been
present before. Although that that's a
sticky wicket, too. it's hard to kind of
make sense what is a commercial actor
versus one that is a non-commercial
actor and clearly if it's a government
entity we know it's not commercial uh but
but
you know Boeing which is a
representation of of sort of very early
space activities is a commercial entity
and oh by the way uh
NASA and people who do space things are
not its largest customer by any stretch
of the imagination so Yeah, we have to
be careful about that. But uh that this
this sort of transition that we're
seeing today where uh NASA is not
necessarily the only game in town
>> uh has has made some uh some significant
differences and I think we'll see those
further as as time passes.
>> Uh John, do you want to go to break
early because I'm going to ask a fairly
lengthy question. Okay, we're going to
swing to a quick break and we'll be
right back. go nowhere. I'm back. Sorry.
Sorry, Rod and TK. But, uh, this week in
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Guys. Now, back to Rod and TK. Roger.
One thing that's always interested me
about having existed during the space
race, I remember what public sentiment
was like broadly or as much as as I
understood it as a younger man. Um, but
you know, one thing I push back on
because I don't think it's correct is
you will broadly hear people, many whom
should know better who were our age
talking about the golden age of Apollo
and the public was behind it and the
nation was united and all that. And I've
looked at every poll I can find from
then till now and it's different polling
agencies asking different questions of a
different population. But in really
broad terms, it hasn't changed that much
that I could see. You know, there's
spikes during Apollo 8 and Apollo 11 and
the shuttle accidents and so forth. But
overall, it's kind of the same now as it
was then, which depending on which
question you ask, isn't great. If you
say, should America be a leader in
space? 60 65% of the people say yes. If
you say, should America immediately go
back to the moon no matter what the cost
or however you phrase the question, it's
more like 17%. What what's what are your
observations on that?
>> Well, that's absolutely right. I mean uh
there is this uh kind of rosecolored
glasses looking back on that past of the
1960s and the exciting what I refer to
as the heroic age of space flight
>> Mercury, Gemini and Apollo time frames
>> in which the astronauts were much more
household names than they are today and
um uh and every launch was viewed as
newsworthy and was covered at infant
item by the news organizations. Um,
so that there was a different different
vibe to it. There's no doubt about that.
And when we look back on it, we all
think of it as this great success story
and how we were all supportive of it.
That's not true. It just simply is not
true. Uh there was attacks on the NASA
budget every year in Congress, both from
the political left and the political
right. Uh so on the political right they
thought it was a waste of money and we
should put it into something else like
military or give it as a tax cut back to
the American people. On the political
left people attacked it based upon uh
the desire to expend more resources on
social programs of of various types uh
that money could be spent elsewhere more
effectively. they said uh and that was
the case throughout the 1960s and those
are the politicos that's that's the
high-end people
>> uh the general public uh they didn't
dislike what NASA was doing and in fact
if you ask a poll question to somebody
to a community of people and ask you
know do you like NASA you got an
overwhelmingly positive response but you
know if you ask the question do you like
what NASA spends on space versus what we
would spend on name the program of your
choice, NASA almost always loses. And uh
and at no time does more than 50% of the
public say that they think going to the
moon is a good idea with the exception
of the summer of 1969 when we landed
there for the first time when Apollo 11
went there. Yeah. For a for a short
period of time in the summer of 1969,
there's more people than not who thought
it was a great thing to do.
>> See that? But that's I I mean that's
just the nature of this and and polling
is has its flaws, but it is empirical
data and we have to address that.
>> See, that's really
>> I feel redeemed
>> cuz here we are like 57 years later and
we're getting ready to go to the moon
again and and it seems like we're in
that that same that same situation. You
know, one of the the things that has
really come up that we've been we've
been following at space.com. Roger is is
this whole billing and and I think maybe
Ro uh Rod was alluding to this too
earlier about that we're locked in like
another space race. I mean that was a
big driving factor of that first trip to
the moon uh back in in ' 69 and and it
is a selling point at least now uh on
the hill for for NASA's Artemis push u
to get astronauts back to the moon
again. And I'm just curious from that
perspective of of of you know watching
that as a as a kid and then uh pursuing
history as a profession if you if you
feel that the comparisons are it's like
apples or oranges or or is it just like
a 2.0 of that that initial race with a
digital twist that we see today?
>> Yeah. Well, it's not it's not the same.
I mean
>> and and this is something I've tried to
explain to students and of course not
having lived through any of it they have
no background. I mean we had uh a peer
competitor in the 19 you know well after
World War II into the uh into the end of
the cold war in the you know about 1990
uh where
the confrontation was on a broad front.
Uh sometimes it was military, not
always. Uh and sometimes it was these
surrogates uh like the space race to
demonstrate technological prowess,
scientific and technological prowess.
And this was a struggle over who was
going to control the the future of the world.
world. >> Wow.
>> Wow.
>> And was it going to be democratic and uh
and capitalistic uh or was it going to
be authoritarian and and uh and command
economy? Uh, and the Americans won that.
Uh, no question about it. And, uh, that
was a remarkable outcome. But, um, the
demonstration better than just about
anything you could think of in the 1960s
was the space race in which nobody died,
at least not intentionally.
And uh if you're sitting on the
sidelines looking at these two
competitors and you're a non-aligned
nation and
both sides are vying for your support,
throw in with us, you know, the the
Americans and and the the European West
uh or uh or the Soviets and their
allies, you're going to want to go with
the side that you think is going to win.
And no better demonstration of that of
of who is going to win is than was in
science and technology. And that's why
the Apollo race to the moon was such a
significant factor in the Cold War. And
I would contend it was really
significant in ways we haven't appreciated.
appreciated. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Uh we don't have anything like that
today. There's nothing out there like
that. Uh there's there's no competition
between nation states over this in any
in any real serious manner. and there's
no existential crisis in which we think
we could get nuked.
Um maybe we should be a little more
worried about that than we are, but the
reality is we don't have the same
situation at all today.
>> So one of the things and I know you
weren't the NASA media department, so
don't get me wrong here, but I am
curious from from your perspective as a
historian and and really a a storyteller
at core in a lot of ways.
you know, it it seems like it's been
very hard for NASA to sell its message
since the beginning and it's not really
part of their charter as I understand
it. But, you know, this is an incredible
agency. It's it's one of the top five
brands globally for the last 30 years
running at least the the accounts that I
could find. But, it does seem, you know,
we've seen Spin-off magazine. We've seen
various publications. People like TK and
I do our best to tell the story cuz
we're so compelled by it. But it seems
like it's been a real challenge for the
agency to to tell its story. Well, do
you have any thoughts on that?
>> Well, I you know, I I think NASA's
actually done a reasonably good job at
at telling its story, and it does have a
mandate to do so. M
>> uh uh because one of the one of the uh
statements in the in the NASA charter
the space act of 1958 is to uh
disseminate broadly uh what what they
are doing and um and relatively speaking
they've done okay with that. It's hard
to keep people's attention
and uh and that's we are and we always
have been at some level sort of a short
of attention short attention span people
and um and so whatever's new and
whatever sort of looks exciting we sort
of rush there and we pay attention to
that for a very short period of time
until something else overtakes it. And
day in and day out, NASA does great
things, but they're not always
newsworthy all the time. And so people
pause and pay attention to a
particularly spectacular space mission
with astronauts on it, or they they pay
attention when there's an encounter uh
pick the mission of your choice, uh uh
New Horizons to Pluto, for instance. It
could be any number of things, and
people pay attention when those things
happen. But
there's lots of periods in which there's
not a lot of newsworthy activities and
most people then if they're just casual
observers of this sort of lose track of
these things.
>> I think that's very well said. Well,
well, let's take our short attention
spans and focus them on a break for just
a few moments and we'll be right back.
So, stand by.
>> Hey everybody, Leo Leaport here. It's
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in advance.
It's really interesting the way that you
put that about attention spans because I
had I had thought that the shift into I
guess what is now a digital media
landscape that we all find ourselves in
of course at space.com. I'm partial
because it's a.com. Uh that um that the
access to to to the information would be
a lot easier for the people to be able
to follow uh the space history makers of
their choice. Uh now when I started for
example I used to have to request
Betamax tapes uh for space shuttle
missions and now you get it live through
like the ether it seems like and
astronauts sharing photos straight from
space. And I'm just curious how you see
that revolution in media uh uh reach I
suppose personal reach uh transforming
the public's awareness of what uh space
programs around the world are doing.
Yeah. No, I think that that's absolutely
what happens. Um we
there's so much that's available to us.
I mean so much information on all kinds
of subjects. Anything you can think of
is out there. And um and and they all
have their audiences. Um and the result
of that is there's a segmentation of
that of of those audiences. Not
everybody can do everything 24/7. And um
and and so what we find I think is that
um you don't we don't have this the the
same sort of you know when I was a kid
growing up my parents turned to CBS
evening news every night and they saw
Walter Kronite for you know for a half
hour half hour news program and that was
their news for the day. uh might look at
the newspaper in the morning, but but
that was it. And everybody saw those
newscasts. And so if there was a if
there was a space story, everybody knew
about it. Uh
the market is so fragmented,
you can you can say that's good or you
can say it's bad and probably a little
of both. Um but uh the reality of that
is that it it people self- select. Are
they interested in space? uh then
they're going to pay a lot of attention
to what's taking place in space. And if
they're interested in, you know, name
the name the billionaire of your choice
who's interested in these sorts of
activities and they want to know about
that, they can track that on an a
minute-by-minute basis almost. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh and people do, but that's going to be
a much smaller percentage of the public
than even is interested in like the
space effort as a whole. And um and I
think our I I think our uh our world
today is sort of built around and and
how many times have we done this? Um you
know, information is at our fingertips
in ways it never was. I can remember uh
as a historian
before the digital age in which you know
Friday afternoon about 5:00 or so I'd
get a call from somebody uh can you tell
me who the first man to fly in space was
and I I know that off the top of my head
but usually I would say something to the
effect okay which way did you bet and
what's my cut uh at the bar where you
guys are sitting talking about this now
none of that happens because you just
look it up.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> And it's there before you in ways that
you never thought of before. So it's
available at our fingertips and anybody
who wishes it can find it very very
quickly. Uh now that says nothing about
the plethora of of sites that are out
there, some of which may be just screw
ball sites and and the um uh and the
discerning nature that one has to uh
undertake and the critical nature you
have to uh have to bring to the use of
those things,
>> but they're there. And and isn't it
interesting that I mean when you and I
started writing books you you you did so
well before me but we still had to go to
libraries and pull out drawers with a
thousand cards in them that were three
feet long and all that. Isn't it
interesting that as this has become more
democratized and information is more
freely available that the number of
people that believe that the moon
landings never happened has increased
which is a real head scratcher to me.
>> Well so the first thing I the first
question I would ask is do we really
think it's increased?
I'm not sure that that's the case.
>> Well, and it's it's interesting you say
that because there was that recent it wasn't
wasn't
>> Kim Kardashian.
>> No, no, no. There there was a there was
a survey the first supposedly the first
international survey of attitudes about
space travel on the moon. It was really
broad. It wasn't IESCO. I can't remember
who who did it, but um it you know that
was their claim, but we don't really
have data that I know of uh to any
extent before that. So, you may be
right, but it does feel like, you know,
when people start turning to Steph Curry
and the Kardashians for truthful facts
about history, I begin to worry
>> the the NASA administrator had to tweet
back at her to say, "Yes, we landed on
the moon."
>> Yes. Oh, God.
Well, I Okay, so I I mean, uh, you you
always see these things in movies and
whatnot about not landing on the moon,
and usually it's done as sort of an
inside joke in some form or another, and
and and yuck yuck, that's all that's all
fine. Um, how many people actually
believe that we didn't, though? and and
unless there's a concerted effort to try
to understand this from the standpoint
of public polling or whatever, I don't
know how you're going to make sense of
that. Yeah, there's anecdotes that are
out there of people who say we didn't.
Um, and there's, you know, mythbusters
and all kinds of other uh groups that
have gone on and debunked all of that
sort of thing. But um but the reality is
that uh the the only polls I've seen
date from like 2010
and it's it's like you know five six 7%
who say I believe we did not land on the
moon. Now I find
that a little troubling too but five six
7% is sort of the the margin for error
for a lot of polls. Yeah.
>> So it's um
>> was was that a domestic poll? Not a lot.
That was domestic.
>> That was domestic. Okay. So, the one I'm
talking about was I think 2019. I'll
have to look it up and and maybe I'll
I'll drop you an email, but I think US
was, you know, it was divided up by age
categories. And of course, the, you
know, 18 to 32 or whatever that category
was was the highest saying, "Oh, I don't
think we did."
>> It was maybe in the in the high teens,
>> but Russia was something like 72% which
was a shocker. But I guess if you
include everybody out in Siberia in the
Hitterlands, that makes sense. But the
UK was 52%.
What happened to our allies?
So, so, so here's a fine point.
Do they say I we did not land on the
moon or did they say I questioned
whether or not we landed on the moon?
Those are two different things.
>> I didn't actually read the questions
phrasing. So, that's a good point. See,
that's why you had that big job and and
Tar and I are nibbling around the edges. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
It just I I you know, I think I I I
think there's obviously especially among
younger people who didn't experience it.
Uh more questioning of it because they
didn't experience it.
>> And that's fair enough. U but there's a
difference between I question whether or
not this happened versus we just didn't
do it. Period.
And I will add, you know, to to a young
person now who has seen especially with
AI, but even just in the last 20, 30
years, who has seen reality mimicked so
well with digital graphics and CGI
>> versus do you remember when the Apollo
12 camera failed, did you ever switch to
NBC for their simulation of the moonwalk?
moonwalk?
>> I might have. I don't recall, but yeah,
I know what you're talking about. So CBS
was using, you know, pilots dressed up
in space suits up at Grumman. ABC was
using a sound stage in Hollywood. NBC
was using marionets on a little moon set
made out of of dust
>> kind of the coolest.
>> But it looked like Thunderbirds or Go if
you remember the show. And I just
thought, "Oh my lord." So having seen
that, I was pretty sure they weren't
faking it. But I digress. I think Tar
has a a more compelling question. John,
do you want to do the break first or or
go now? Okay, we're going to swing.
We're going to simulate our way into a
break and we'll be right back. So stand by.
by.
>> You know, Roger, one of the things that
I was thinking about as we were
preparing for today is um is kind of how
the weight of space history falls on
this part of of the year. Roger or Rod
mentioned um the work that you had done
uh with the Columbia Accident
Investigation Board. Of course, that
that tragic uh uh shuttle accident was
uh in on February of of 2003 and of and
we're coming up on the 40th anniversary
of the Challenger accident as well and
the Apollo one fire uh in ' 67 and and
I'm wondering from, you know, your your
professional kind of perch,
how important the the chronicling of
those accidents, investigations, and
their subsequent I guess responses uh on
the on on the NASA side really play in
just the ongoing effort to remain
vigilant for spaceflight safety and
whatnot, you know, uh like how how
important those those recording of those
you from the accidents themselves to the
investigations and then the learnings uh
play on a regular basis, you know, when
when you were a chief historian and then
I guess now from the outside watching
the evolution for this new push to the moon.
moon.
>> Yeah. Well, I mean the the accidents and
it's not just the ones in which lives
were lost such as those, but yeah, all
of the mishaps that have taken place
that were not uh in which nobody died uh
all play a part into in the NASA process
uh to try to understand the technology,
what went wrong with it, how to correct
it, how to ensure that there's no
additional uh accidents in which people
die and um and so maintaining that that
that knowledge and that base of
information is a key part of what uh all
of the operations uh at NASA are engaged
in. And I would assume the same is true
at any of the organizations that fly uh
rockets into space at SpaceX or or
wherever else it happens to be. Um, this
is a hard thing to do. And um, and the
technology I I refer to it as angry
technology and and and
you can like or not like that particular
term, but I refer to it that way because
it is so uh, so potentially deadly. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh, you just have to maintain your
edge on this the whole time. I mean,
we're all familiar with with car
accidents and things of this nature and
and some of those are tragic and some
people lose their lives in the process,
but the vast majority of those accidents
are fender benders in which nobody's
hurt. Uh you you have an accident in a
spacecraft, uh it could it could easily
turn into one in which people lose their
lives. And that's one of those those
things in which no amount of safety is
um safety awareness is sufficient to
ensure the uh the rigor that uh that you
undertake these activities and it
doesn't matter where you are, who you're
flying, what country it is, uh private
sector or whatever. It's it's the same everywhere.
everywhere. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
So I I've spent not as much time as I
would have liked to but over the years
sometime national archives JPL's Johnson
Space Centers Kennedy and so forth and
when I think of that experience visav
what you did from the top perch as the
historian for headquarters were there
times where it got this is a two-part
question so bear with me where it got
frustrating trying to capture you know
you're trying to get your arms around
tons tons literally of paperwork and
records to preserve these histories. So
that must have been hard enough. But
then at least with an organization like
JPL, which is the only place I saw in a
detail, as you move into the 21st
century, suddenly there's a lot less
paperwork generated and a whole lot of
this history is going to be digital in
ways that you can't really preserve. and
I had to actually have people go back
and kind of convert their digital
history into print for the book I was
working on.
>> So, a how how difficult was it to get
your arms around the whole picture in
your job? And B, was there a transition
there that was challenging?
>> It's it's always been a challenge. I
mean, uh,
we're we're talking about records here
at at this point. And
>> um, so historians basically live and die
by by paper records, uh, documentation
that's created, uh, the closest to, um,
uh, the center as possible. You know, a
person's recollections written down at
in real time, uh, made available to to
somebody to use to try to tell the story
of what's taking place. And um and and
we've always had this problem. It's
always been there. Uh and the a huge
change took place in the first part well
actually the last part of the 19th
century in which telephones started to
be used and you did not have then a
written documentation of a telephone
call usually. I mean sometimes somebody
would sit down after the fact and say
okay this is what we talked about. this
person said this and I said that and
they would have a document that they
created. Um but most of the time you had
that ephemerra that didn't get didn't
get kept in the same way. So historians
had to try to deal with that
>> and we developed uh uh approaches that
journalists are well familiar with which
is calling up people and talking to them
about it
>> recording recording their uh their
responses. Uh we call them oral
histories. you all call them interviews.
Uh they're the same thing really. And um
and that's one way to try to get a
handle on that documentation.
The uh in in the digital age, we've got
the similar sort of problems associated
with this. And now everything's I
shouldn't say everything, but an awful
lot of things are done uh through email
or texts or various things like that in
which uh there's not necessarily a
permanent record except an electronic
one. And uh we have tried uh and we did
this at NASA when I was there to try to
uh work with the various program offices
to you know maintain that kind of
materials uh for for knowledge capture
uh as programs unfold and some did it
well some did it less well all tried but
u it's a difficult task no doubt about
it and we've also sort of lived and died
uh on the capability every retiree I've
ever run into at NASA uh organizations
I've worked for has got boxes of stuff
that ends up in their garage or their
basement at some point. And um and
they're usually happy to let you have
that stuff at some point down the road
well after the fact. And
since historians don't look at things in
a time-sensitive way and in the same way
maybe a journalist does, um, if if it
takes 20 years for that material to find
its way into into collections, we can
live with that. We'd like to have it
sooner, but, you know, it it works out
okay the way it is.
You don't worry about how do you how do
you document a tweet, Rod, right? Like
the all of that stuff. What What do we
do? What if what if they change and they
shut that whole company down?
There is such a thing as screen
captures. You got another question.
>> By the way, can I just respond to that?
>> How many how many tweets tweets really
need to be captured?
>> That's one of the that's one of the questions.
questions.
>> If they're from Elon Musk, they're all
meaningful. Oh, wait a minute. I got I
got confused.
>> Well, I think about Masamino, right?
Mike Masamino. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> The first person ever to tweet from
space. you would want.
>> And by the way,
>> social media has been a boon along these
lines, especially as some of the people
who've been engaged in uh you know in
space have done a lot of things to sort
of uh communicate with the public and uh
and and that is a very valuable uh
process not just not just for publicity
purposes either for them and for NASA as
a whole but but in the context of the
historical record.
>> Yeah. and and that's going to be that's
going to be continuing along with
Artemis 3 on the moon. That first tweet
from the moon that's going to be
history, right? First Instagram breaking
news, that first photo of Pluto on Instagram.
Instagram.
>> Well, and and as long as you bring that
up, Tar, didn't you have one more
question about uh social space in the
age of social media?
>> No, I think we talked about that earlier
about the relevancy and and and the
attention span we were talking about
there. I mean, I've always thought that
NASA needed a fan club and then 2007
they got it with um uh the advent of of
Twitter and uh I had to have JPL's
like media team explain what Twitter was
to me. I'm so ashamed. I'm so ashamed.
>> So, Roger, I guess my last question here
is uh when is book
127 coming out and what's it going to be about?
about?
>> Well, I'm not going to be writing it.
Maybe you will. So,
>> do you have anything in the works though?
though?
>> Yeah. So, basically I'm working on a
project right now that's and you've seen
these books in other in other settings.
Uh it's basically NASA history in 100 objects.
objects. >> Oh.
>> Oh.
>> And uh it'll be it's a fun book.
>> Oh, that sounds cool.
>> And it's got all the kinds of stuff you
would think of and uh maybe some things
you won't think of, but um trying to
tell that NASA story. um and and not
just NASA but but the NACA before it as
well going back to 1915
>> and um and using 100 objects to sort of
uh talk about the broad-based
associations of the agency over time and
the kinds of uh of activities it's
engaged in and and we're in the process
now of putting that together. I've been
looking at page proofs and and we're
still a long way from having this done,
but it's it's underway. And who's
publishing that?
>> It's going to be done by Smithsonian Books.
Books.
>> Okay. I kind of figure it probably was.
>> You have to let us know when when that
when that comes out that we'll want to
definitely revisit and
>> Yeah. Yeah. We'd love to have you back
on because I think we got through about
twothirds of our questions as usually
happens. Well, I want to thank
everybody, especially you, Roger, for
joining us for episode number 93 that we
like to call a history of tomorrow.
Roger, where's the best place for us to
keep up with uh what you're doing and
your accomplishments?
>> Um, heck, I don't know. I'm not on
social media.
>> What gas
pearl clutching, you know,
>> I am I am actually um retired. Uh
although I do book projects and things
of this nature, I'm I I just abandoned
my social media connections. I do things
like this. uh when I'm invited uh and
I've done a few of those things uh uh in
the last few months and so you can see
me there.
>> All right. Well, now that we're over our
intimidation and inviting you, we'll
we'll we'll do some more often because
uh this is a great session. Tar, where
can we find you pursuing your various
venal things these days?
>> Well, you can find me at space.com as
always. This weekend, you'll find me
watching with baited breath as NASA
rolls out the Aremis 2 space launch
system rocket to the launchpad at last.
Huzzah, you know.
So, u So, there is that. And, uh, and
then hopefully this is the this is the
month next month, you know, by this time
next month, we'll have gone to the moon
and back. It's going to be real tight
like like we talked about earlier, but
it's going to be real real tight. So,
we'll see. We'll see.
>> Yeah. Whisper to NASA. Also also on the
on all the social medias at tar j mallik
I forgot and on YouTube at space. So
>> and check those hydrogen seals for
fueling. And of course you can find me
at pilebooks.com or at asterazine.com.
Remember to drop us a line at twistt
twit.tv. We love to get your comments,
ideas, suggestions, space jokes and uh
we answer each and every letter. New
podcast episodes publish every Friday
and your favorite podcaster. So, make
sure to subscribe, tell your friends,
and give us reviews, good ones,
hopefully. And follow the Twit Tech
Podcast Network at Twit on Twitter and a
Facebook and Twit.tv on Instagram. And
that's all the social media I can think
of at the moment. Thank you, Roger. We
really appreciate you coming on and
thank you everybody and we'll see you
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