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Marat Gabidullin - Wagner Group Commander / Russian Mercenary | SRS #195

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This is my first ever interview with an

enemy combatant, a commander from

Russia's

infamous Vagner

Group. It's a little bit of a language

barrier with this one. So bear with us

cuz there is some very interesting

information in this episode. And if you

can bear with the language barrier, I

think you're going to get a lot out of

this and learn a lot about Vagner Group,

how they came about, their

training, and the caliber of men that

they had working there. Enjoy the

[Music]

show. Morat Gabulan, welcome to the

show. Thank you. It's nice to meet you,

John. Thank you for being here. wanted

to bring you on here to uh to fill in a

couple of gaps with the language

barrier. Sure. Barack Gabulan, born in

Eurol, you grew up in Usuzbekiststan and

joined the Soviet military in

1984. Served as a paratrooper officer

and commanded a recon company, then

joined Russia's Vagner Group, starting

as a grunt fighting ISIS in Syria and

rising all the way to commander. You

worked closely with Vagner boss Pragoian

advising the ISIS hunters in Syria and

fought in the battle of Kasham in 2018

against US and Kurdish forces. You then

quit Vagner in 2019, authored a book

about your time with Vagner and since

then you have moved to France where

you're now seeking asylum. This

interview is taking place in Paris. Um,

obviously we couldn't get you to the US,

so we came here to to meet you. Feels

really weird for me to say this, but you

are you are an enemy combatant and

um you fought in in a skirmish in Syria

and against 40 US

soldiers, special forces soldiers, and

I'm friends with a couple of those guys

and heard their account uh of that

battle. and then uh we ran into your

your friend John Lechner and um asked to

be connected with you. So I just want to

thank John, a freelance journalist,

writer and researcher who's been in

conflict zones across the globe. Author

of the book Death is Our Business:

Russian mercenaries and the new era of

private warfare. Expert on Russia's

moves in Africa, their Foreign Policy

and Private Military Companies. So thank

you again for being here. But thanks for

having me. I wanted to I want to dive in

on a little bit of the history of Vagner

Group. Yeah. And so how how did it how

did it start? Well, so as Morat was

telling you,

Vagner really began in in 2014 and Morat

as he was saying he he joined the

company as they call it. They only on

the inside call it the company. Vagner

Group itself as an entity never existed.

It was sort of just a nickname uh that

that was given to it. Some of my uh

friends told me that in Russia emerged

the some kind of structure uh where I

can start

uh my life from the very beginning.

Vagner initially came out of uh the war

in eastern Ukraine and uh its founder

was a guy prior who who Morat has

mentioned a couple of times. This is a

guy who

uh was born in uh the 60s and in the

Soviet Union and sort of grew up on the

wrong side of the tracks. He he was a a

petty thief and kind of a small time

gangster uh in his teenage years and he

uh goes away to prison uh at the age of

18 if I remember correctly uh for

assault and robbery. He and his gang

were uh on a street in Lenningrad which

became St. Petersburg. Uh and they forgo

came up behind a woman and and strangled

her uh until she almost died and then

they they robbed her and he was caught

and sent away for for nine years and and

when he gets out the Soviet Union is

collapsing around him and he returns to

his native St. Petersburg where uh first

he falls in with some gangsters again in

the in in the '9s which Marott had kind

of alluded to uh previously with these

various crime bosses and things and so

he falls in with some crime bosses

himself uh and they set him up as a

manager of some grocery chain uh grocery

store chains. Uh he eventually turns

that into becoming a restaurant tour of

uh some very kind fancy restaurants in

St. Petersburg that a younger Vladimir

Putin enjoyed and he leveraged uh those

relationships to eventually get getting

the job of providing meals uh to the

whole Russian military and the Russian

school system. So he became close with

Putin through his restaurant tours.

Well, as you'll see kind of as as we go

through the story, he he he manages to

connect with Putin. Putin likes him, but

he's never able. He would always say

that he was about one handshake away

from Putin. And so Putin gets to know

him. He he kind of likes him because

he's uncou. He he he he's kind of has

that sort of rough kind of attitude

which is somewhat refreshing given kind

of the bureaucratic uh elite that are

surrounding Putin. And so Prosian

eventually gets uh this job to provide

the meals for the Russian military.

Um, and so that that takes us to around

2014 or so when

uh well, we have to go back a little bit

uh a little bit further. So, you know,

while he's doing this work as a

contractor, he he also is looking for

different ways that he can look good and

get on Putin's radar. One of the ways he

does it is there were massive protests

against Putin's return to the presidency

in 2012.

Uh and and so Bogosian puts together

this kind of documentary that that shows

how all the protesters are fake,

basically supported by the West. And you

know, he finances it himself. It's not

like Putin is doing this, but it's a way

to to virtue signal and show, hey, you

know, I'm furthering the cause of, you

know, Putin's cause and and Russia's

cause more broadly.

And so, as I said, Putin is coming to

the presidency again in 2012. There are

massive destabil destabilizing protests

against

it. And he navigates it and and and gets

back into power. But pretty much fairly

quickly thereafter, another revolution

is happening. This time on Russia's

border in Ukraine, what became the

Maidon revolution in late 2013.

And for Putin, he he sees these two

things as connected, right? It's it it's

the West basically trying uh to

overthrow Russia, overthrow his own

regime, and they're doing it wherever

they can. And so the Kremlin in early

2014 makes a decision to annex Crimea,

which is a peninsula on the Black Sea

that is uh part of Ukraine. It had

beforehand been part of Russia uh during

the Soviet period, but it it went to

Ukraine during the Soviet Union and

Russia's Black Sea fleet is there. This

is the only warm water port that they

have and it's it's important. And so

amidst all this chaos, the uh the

Kremlin decides to annex Crimea. They

use special forces to do it, but then

they also rely on these kind of like

right-wing Russian nationalist

chauvinists uh kind of the folks in sort

of Russia's own nationalist militant

movement to provide some of the security

on the peninsula for the

annexation. And after its success, the

Kremlin thinks everything's done and

dusted. But kind of

unbeknownst to them at the time or kind

of something that was unexpected was

that amidst this revolution in Ukraine,

there's also an anti-Maidon movement

especially in eastern Ukraine in this

region called Donbos which is

economically and culturally closer to

Russia. And so as Ukrainians are taking

over government government buildings to

overthrow uh the government of

Yanukovich, anti-Maidon protesters are

taking over these buildings in Donbos

and Dyetsk and in

Luhansk. And this puts uh Putin and the

Kremlin into a difficult situation

because unlike Crimea, they didn't want

to annex uh eastern Ukraine. Donbos,

it's not that important to Russia. But

uh Putin is kind of boosting his

nationalist credentials by annexing

Crimea. Gives a big kind of rally around

the flag effect. And crucially, this is

a rally around the flag from from people

who these nationalists, these Russian

nationalists and and militant guys who

were against Putin's rule in 2012 and

were marching against him. And so he

can't be seen as hang letting these uh

separatists in eastern Ukraine hang out

to dry. but he doesn't want to risk

further sanctions from the west,

international isolation. And so the

Kremlin has to think very quickly like

how do we support but not support these

separatists in eastern Ukraine?

and and and this is where Yfghdi

Prigoian the the guy who's providing the

meals uh for the Russian military uh

becomes acquainted with uh another guy

Dmitri Utkin who is a former uh GRU

officer uh Russian military

intelligence. He fought in Cheschna. uh

he was stationed uh near Estonia and he

had just come back and and almost got in

big trouble for this kind of

misadventure uh with a Russian PMC in

Syria. The these two guys come together

and they sign an

agreement whereby uh Utkin will provide

the tactical knowledge, provide the men

as contractors and Progoian will provide

the political backing and the financial

support for this mercenary group that is

very closely if not basically as Morat

was saying a ministry of defense

project. Mhm. That they send into

eastern Ukraine. right across the border

to support the separatists. It's

interesting because when I interviewed

Eric Prince, we had spoken about Eric

Prince

earlier. They reached out to Eric Prince

to try to help build Vagnner Group off

of Blackwater.

Did you know that? Uh to tell the truth,

I am not completely agree with this

opinion. Firstly, Watner

group has nothing to do with

uh with uh private sector. So what was

the recruitment? How do they recruit

their their fighters? So as Morat was

saying, I mean it's word of mouth

basically. Um and and I think Morat will

tell you uh later as well the the

initial group of Vagner

uh wi-i which came out of uh this uh PMC

that had the year before gone to Syria.

So there before Vagner, there were a

number of kind of what we would think of

as like western style PMC's that had

popped up. Uh and largely in response to

the Somali piracy crisis, which I'm sure

you remember. Um there there was an

opportunity for these Russian

contractors to to protect Russian ships

that are going through the Gulf of

Aiden. uh a number of Russian

contractors were even working in Iraq

during uh the war on terror as well. the

the issue is that mercenarism is illegal

in Russia technically. And so these

firms would uh basically establish

themselves in like Hong Kong or you know

the Bahamas or something along those

lines and then the the client would

provide them with the weapons when they

showed up going through a third a third

country to protect the ship or or what

have you. Um, and there was this one

group called Moran Group where uh Dmitri

Utkin after he left uh the service went

to go work for and and one of the

founders of Moran uh got a contract with

uh with a Syrian oligarch in

2013 to at least what the guys thought

at the time to to basically protect uh

oil and gas assets uh from ISIS. And

when they showed up, uh it turned out

that the Syrians wanted them to actually

take those assets uh from ISIS. And uh

there was almost like a little mutiny

among the contractors, but you know,

they went ahead and they got ambushed

and Dimmitri Udken uh actually got the

guys out safely during a sandstorm. They

all go back to Russia kind of with their

tail between the legs uh and the FSB,

the successor to the KGB, arrests and

charges the the the two commanders who

went to Syria with mercenarism. Lupin,

who's like one level below, gets off

along with all the rest of the guys. And

only a couple of months later, all of a

sudden, Russia needs mercenaries. they

know who, you know, is interested in

this type of work because they almost

arrested the the guy in Syria. And so,

uh, those same 50 guys or so formed the

core of what was just then called the

company. And Dimmitri Udken uh who uh is

a fan of uh the German composer uh

Richard Vagner takes his call sign uh

Vagner in in Donbos and since he was the

the main commander eventually it becomes

kind of the catchall term for uh the

company more more generally. Okay. And

so, so it it sounds like when Morat came

in, it was about 600 people. So when

when Morat first came in in April

2015, I think it was getting close to

about uh 600 guys. He can correct me uh

if I'm wrong. And and Marat was coming

uh in in April 2015. So this is right

around the time that Russia is actually

trying to

uh sort of get to a ceasefire

uh and and and take over the the these

separatist republics uh at the time. And

so when when Morat joined

uh Vagner was a bit different at the

time. It was one of many different

forces that the MOD was using to support

these separatists and no one thought

that uh it was going to become what it

became. Mhm. Uh and and so it was one of

several units that were kind of figuring

out ways to bring volunteers in to

support the separatists and and Vagner

at that time had this group of 50 guys

or so who who had who had been in Syria,

but they also

uh had had a unit of Serbian volunteers

that were coming through. And so when

Morat joined uh he he was initially part

of the the international brigade which

was largely Serbian and he had a Serbian

commander. Eventually the Serbs would be

kind of kicked out kicked by the wayside

later on when when when we got to Syria.

But uh when when Morat joined

uh it was a few months before some of

the final big battles uh before we saw

what was called the Minsk 2 ceasefire uh

between Ukraine and the separatist

statelets backed by Russia at the time.

Oh good. Oh good. What is it true that

they started recruiting out of the

prisons a conflict situation with a

crime boss?

With a crime boss. He's a crime

boss. And

uh what was the situation? Is a criminal

u using any opportunity to

to to take some money from from

anyone. And this situation emerge on the

empty place.

Uh but as a result

uh during uh the during uh one of uh

during the

meeting I shoot him. You shot him? Shot

him. And I was sentenced to three years

in prison. Where did you shoot him?

Where? In the head. Uh,

no. In the body. In the body. Body and

then in the

head. I was in prison in Kasnayars in

Siberia. Uh, at the time I served in uh

Siberia. Uh, our regimen was removed uh

from the Kishov to Siberia.

uh after uh Soviet Union collapsed.

So they uh the I think Vagner at the

beginning and and I think this what

Morat will tell you was uh for the most

part

uh guys who had military experience like

Morat. Uh guys who had trouble adjusting

to civilian life in in in some shape or

form and and and wanted to experience

the adventure and camaraderie again. uh

and and largely through word of mouth

were recruited to the company when they

found out there was this opportunity uh

in Ukraine or eventually later on in

Syria uh and elsewhere. And so for the

most part it was guys coming out of the

military. Maybe they had a brush with

the law like Morat had to to put it

lightly. Um, but the the full convict

recruitment program where pro if you saw

the videos of Progosian going around to

all of the penal colonies and and

recruiting prisoners, that only happened

uh after 2022 for Russia's full-scale

invasion of Ukraine. Okay. So, there

were definitely dudes who had served

prison time, got out, and then joined

Vagner, but they they weren't recruiting

from from the prisons at that time. It

was really, I mean, if I remember

correctly, Morat's

uh it was Morat's buddy from his

military times who who recruited him uh

just by word of mouth. He said, "Hey,

I'm doing this. Do you want to do you

want to join?" What was the what was the

test like? You said you had to take some

type of a test to get into Vodkna Group.

You have to meet the time and uh push up

uh 55 time. 55 push-ups. Push up. A 3

kilometer run. Mhm. Were there any

tactics involved like room

clearance entering a building? Oh, no.

No, no, nothing like that. No. What are

these guys getting paid? They I mean I

think it depended, but they usually were

getting about $2,000 a a month during uh

their time on the contract. Um and so

this is pretty good money uh in in

Russia for for guys. So um it it's

definitely a motivating factor. What

what is it developed into? I mean

they're in Africa. Yeah. They're in

Ukraine. They're aren't they doing

breweries? They're doing all kinds of

stuff. Yeah. What what all are they

involved in?

So what what I think is interesting

about this story because Morat will will

tell you you know this was very much a

stateup supported uh entity but and you

know we can ask Morat as well again I I

also don't think it could have become

what it was if it weren't for the

ambition of its founder Yi Piggoian as

well and and and so uh kind of If we

look at what was happening in Ukraine in

2015, a lot of those units that the MOD

was supporting after the ceasefire, they

just kind of, you know, dispersed, went

home, uh, didn't really do much after.

But, uh, only a few months later,

Russia's overtly intervening in Syria.

There's there's nothing covert about it,

right? It's a full, you know, air

campaign with the the Russian military.

Um and and

Pgojan uh and and and Utkin are very

much also lobbying to make sure that he

gets his guys into there because he has

now this kind of force at his disposal.

Well, and what he's good at is trying to

figure out, okay, I have this now. What

do I do with it? Mhm. And and and it was

at this point where I think he he saw

the black waters of the world and he

said, "Okay, I want to do kind of my

version of this." And it and it so

happened that Syria was going to be the

next opportunity for him to do so. Um

and so uh Morat was one of the first

guys uh on the ground in Syria. Um as

he'll tell you uh they the mod didn't

really know what to do with them and a

couple of guys got killed uh and and

they didn't want casualties right away

so they panicked and and sent them home.

And it was only until it became clear

that Russian air power alone wasn't

going to defeat the the rebels uh rebels

against Assad or or ISIS. Uh that Vagner

was brought back in this time, you know,

on the ground where they they take

Palmira, then they get sent home again,

then they get back in and Morat will

tell you all about the battle of Kasham.

But it it gets to that point where it's

it's this mix, right? They have state

backing, but Progosian is also out there

with his guys basically doing business

development, right? If you have if you

have a

PMC, where are you going to market your

services? You have to go to Africa at

some point. Otherwise, you you should

fire your your B and D guy. And and and

so already in

2017, Progosan is uh sending his guys

out to to drum up new business. They

they first uh signed a contract with the

the Sudin to provide training and they

get access to uh mining concessions in

Sudan. Uh then they show up in the

Central African Republic where there's

really no other kind of competition from

other Russians. And so Posian is able to

provide training. He offers his uh like

information warfare cuz he has patrol

farms which were kind of very famous in

the US during the 2016 elections. Uh and

his guys go out and they try to start

breweries and they go into gold mining

and and what have you. They act as Morat

was saying very independently of the

Kremlin because the these places aren't

that important to Russia. And so in the

places that aren't aren't important, he

has to figure out his own ways to

finance interesting these these

operations. And so they go from the

Central African Republic, they're in

Libya back in Haftar in uh in his bid to

take Tripoli in

2019. Then they show up in Mali, uh

where they they signed a a deal with the

Malian government to to go after uh

various jihadi groups. uh and then

ultimately they

uh are initially left out of the

full-scale invasion uh of Ukraine in in

February 2022 and only get brought in uh

when when the Russian government's in

trouble. So these guys are not they're

definitely not just in Russia's best

interest. They're doing they're doing

their own thing in all these separate

parts of the world. Yeah. But I think I

think you know

that it's

not because people are always asked, you

know, is this a private thing or or a

public thing? And the answer is is both.

And I mean, we're in Paris right now,

but when I'm sitting in Washington DC, I

I try to explain to people like this is

the capital of public private

partnerships, right? Loheed Martin uh is

a profit- driven company. Mhm. They will

frame whatever they're doing as

furthering America's national defense

and security, but they're also a profit

profit driven. And so a lot what

Pogosian was very good at was selling

back to the Kremlin this dream of kind

of Russia's expansion abroad. Gotcha.

And he and he could sell it back to

Putin the these different initiatives

that were also just happened to be, you

know, potentially profitable to him.

Interesting.

Interesting. All right, let's uh let's

move to Syria.

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Morat, let's go to when you got on the

ground in Syria.

first time in uh September in

2015. I think uh

preion is looking for the opportunity to

implement this uh completely new concept

of the using uh military

forces and uh he want to demonstrate

uh the ability combatability of the

mercenaries and uh we uh delivered uh to

Sura uh by the scheduled

uh civilian flight uh of

uh civilian uh to tell the truth uh

military Russian military

firstly look at uh looked at us vis is a

surprise. They don't know didn't know

who we are and uh what we uh to do here

and

uh uh how they must to treat

us. And

uh we after we received the weapon

uh we take uh

uh take a part in uh several several uh

military action and demonstrated

uh the whole

superiority on the uh uh superiority

over uh

enemy And uh of course uh the whole

superiority over the Bashar Assad

army. But I think uh uh at that moment

uh Russian military uh and Syrian

military

uh thought that uh

they handle this situation uh without

us. Uh Russian military thought that if

uh they provided

uh uh Syrian army with strike support

uh Syrian army uh can achieve uh the

victory in this war. But it turned out

uh that uh Suran army

degradated to the point

inability to wage offensive uh action.

And so like as Morat is saying when when

Russia first intervenes in Syria,

uh one of the reasons that they're doing

it actually it's after the annexation of

Crimea and uh they recognize the

importance of Syria at that time for the

US and for the West because this is if

you look remember 2015 this is when uh

ISIS is really at its at its height with

the territorial uh caliphate and the US

has already uh intervened, gone back in

to to fight ISIS. And so the Russians

think that uh if we go in backing Assad,

we can kind of force the US into a joint

counterterrorism operation against ISIS

that will force them to kind of

basically start talking to us again. Oh,

good. And so they come in and they're

backing Assad. But as Morat's saying,

Assad's government, I mean, the the

forces that he has are incredibly

uh unmotivated. I mean, for obvious

reasons given his his rule. And the

rebels, not just ISIS, but all the other

rebels fighting against them are a lot

more motivated. And the Russians

initially wanted it to just be uh an air

campaign. But I mean, as you find out

pretty quick, like air just air

campaigns alone rarely worked for

anybody. Uh, and it was clear that

Russian air power with Assad's forces on

on the ground were not going to was not

going to work. They were not going to

take the territory back from from

rebels. And so, but they they they they

face an issue at the time, which I think

you speak to as well, where they this is

kind of a farway intervention for Russia

and they haven't figured out yet if they

want to have actual Russian troops on

the ground and what Russians will think,

the Russian public will think if Russian

soldiers are going home in in caskets.

and and there's a sense that they're

going to be against this and say why why

are we here in Syria? And so one of the

reasons that Marat and Vagner were able

to get back in is that the Russian

military didn't have to report

casualties for Vagner.

and uh

uh uh using the mercenaries. Is this war

uh to take an uh

to to uh

uh could uh resolve uh the very

uh very main uh uh very difficult uh uh

task. Uh

uh the thing is that uh Russian uh

generals invented the concept of the war

with a little

bloodshed and using the

mercenaries they can um

create no some kind of uh appearances

that this uh concept is working.

uh lost of the

mercenaries didn't it include in the

official

statistic. Okay, that makes sense. So,

so correct me if I'm wrong, but the

whole point of Russia going into Syria

to include Vagner was to build some type

of an alliance with the United States.

Yeah, it was an effort against ISIS. It

was an effort because uh in part there's

always a lot of reasons why why things

happen, but the

the timing of their intervention because

if you remember

uh you know Syria started going into

civil war right around the time of the

Arab Spring. So this is already like 5

years before that.

uh the Russians didn't have any

particular love for Assad despite the

fact that there was a Russian base in

Syria and kind of some history going

back to the Soviet Union. What what

really explains the timing of why they

went in was this sense of isolation that

they felt after the annexation of Crimea

in 2014 in Ukraine. And it was this

effort to basically get themselves onto

the world stage again in a crisis that

they thought was uh existentially

important to the West, which was the the

defeat of ISIS. Of course, also when

they show up and they're on the ground,

Assad also has different ideas for what

he wants the Russians to do. And ISIS is

less of a concern to him than a lot of

the more secular uh rebels uh elsewhere

as well. and that he wants the Russians

to go after those guys, whereas the

Russians want to go try and meet up with

the Americans as they're closing in uh

on on ISIS as the territorial caliphate

is is kind of crumbling down.

Interesting. Interesting. Well, let's

talk about let's talk about the battle

of Kashan between Vagner and US social

forces. So, like I mentioned, I have I

have friends that were in that battle.

Um it sounds like there was around

500 Vagner group

um soldiers on the ground. There were 40

US special forces guys along with a

couple with uh with a Kurdish partner

force. And so let's just start with the

beginning.

What what were you doing that close to

American forces?

From the very beginning

uh this uh

factory uh was a very important uh this

factory enclosed all infrastructure

uh of the oil field nearby

uh around nearby Konaka and Prejan

wanted to cease this factory uh

uh during the battle uh for the deor but

we have no enough uh resources. Uh we

constantly

uh we forced uh to

uh to attract our forces uh in order to

uh in order to achieve a goal

uh in order to take liberate the zor. uh

our lives uh was very undecisively uh

acted very undecisively

uh and uh we cannot uh using uh our

forces uh in order to advance forward.

H can I put can I put like a little bit

before where so

uh like what was like why did Pgoian

want to take the these Kico facilities?

Mhm. And so in in

2016, Morat and Vagner, they capture

Palmira from from ISIS and and Morat has

I think some of the medals from that and

from that time period that that they'll

show. But after the capture, the Russian

military sends Vagner home again. Mhm.

And and then a few months later, ISIS

recaptures it. Palmira and Vagner comes

back in. But this time, Pgoan has signed

a deal with Assad's government.

Uh, and part of the the deal is is that

Vagner will uh participate in the

counter offensive and Proggoian and and

his companies get a 25% share of the

proceeds of the oil and gas assets that

are

recuperated. And so Pgojan has this

massive incentive now to go out uh

against ISIS and and capture as much of

those assets as he as he can. And and so

in 2017, Morat uh and and Vagner are are

back in Syria. And this is right around

the time where uh ISIS is collapsing.

The US uh is backing the the Kurdish

SDF. The SDF is coming from the

northeast south. They're heading for uh

the ISIS's capital, Raqqa.

and Vagner and Assad forces are heading

north. And at a certain point, there's

this factory that Morad is talking about

called Kanuko, which is sort of the

crown jewel of of all the assets. It's

it's valued in the hundreds of millions

of dollars, and it was at one of ISIS's

like most valuable assets for for fuel

smuggling.

must reach

uh uh most profitable uh oil field in

Sura. So So Pogoan wants this. Mhm. And

he's sending letters too to the Syrian

government saying that they're not

upholding their end of the bargain that

he's spending all of this money on the

offensive and the Syrians aren't paying

him. So he he sees Kico as the way to

kind of get profit get profitability,

get get out of the red and into the

black. The only issue is that as ISIS is

collapsing, everyone is thinking what a

post ISIS world is going to is going to

look like. So the Kurds with the

blessing of of the US start moving away

from Raqqa and heading south towards

their resort and there's a rush for

who's going to get this conicle plant

when ISIS is gone and the SDF the the

Kurdish forces backed by special forces

get there

first and then this is where

for

Gojan uh make a made a mistake Uh he

thought that he can

uh uh he can uh achieve uh uh his goal

uh as a result in negotiation with the

olders of the Kurdish tribe. But at that

time

um uh

functioners of the SPS

uh was in charge of the of the whole

thing and oldest uh uh the oldest uh of

of the tribes they like uh

pur uh elders uh uh they uh guarantee uh

they gave a guarantee that uh Kurdish

forces retreat

uh as soon as we started to move

forward but uh

they just died

uh how many guys how How many guys did

you have gathered to attack Kico at that

time? I think about 502 units uh karp

and fifth uh assault uh units and uh my

uh my group

uh that consist of suran fighters

uh 75

75 75 this is this

was only units uh of Surrian that uh

took part in this action. No one else,

only Russian mercenaries and this group

of uh Syrian

fighters. only this I

uh I had to

uh advance uh on the left flank and uh

take over to take over uh two

stronghold. Uh we advanced on

the start line of

attack

but American prevented us. They

uh strike uh on uh on the second

echelon headquarter

uh artillery uh

position.

uh the ar the armory uh

armory and then uh they uh shift uh the

fire on us.

Did you guys fire on them

uh from the sky? Uh, American uses for

at the beginning American uses only

aviation. Mhm. Uh, had two spectre

gunships and two Apaches

helicopters. Yeah. Uh, oh, combat

uh combat drones. uh

spooky and

uh combat

helicopter.

Um so what what was what was going

through your head when you knew that so

US special operations initiated the

attack? No, no, no. You should what you

should you what you should tell them is

start from uh the the beginning of the

morning because this happened on

February 8th, right? Feb February uh the

night uh the night of February between

uh 7 and 7 February and and you were in

the

room the day before or a couple of days

before where Utken he comes in and he

says we're going to take this from the

Americans. Yeah. And and someone said,

"Are the Americans going to be there?"

And he said, "Yeah, yes, I don't know

why, but uh Posh decided that American

uh wanted

involved and uh that the Americans come

back. Uh the thing is

the preion

uh have uh uh have a one

future character it's like um

personality trait from time to time his

ego his ego ego uh

uh right uh uh roast above the common

sense. May maybe something that it might

be it might look cool. Um and no one has

done this

before if we get a piece of paper and

Moro can show where the Americans were

and how Vagner came over with the with

the arrows and stuff. That way that way

people can get

Yeah. No one's done this

before.

So, do you want to show you have the the

river Euphrates? Mhm. Then you want to

show where Konico is and then where

Vagner in the US was. Uh

Yafrat

[Music]

Kik we we were completely destroyed.

So this is this is our position. This is

your position. Factory. This is Quanico.

Yeah. And this is the Kurds in the US.

No, the Kurds in the US are in here in

the Quanico facility. This is Vagner's

two positions right here. They're inside

the facility. No, no, no. Facility is

around like this and then they go and

attack that. But the US was inside the

facility. US was inside the facility. So

you So Vagner initiated an attack.

Initiate. It's it's what a planned uh

action

with signs of the false

uh artillery assault from the Kurdish

and you guys you knew that US special

operations were in the factory. Yes, we

know about it. Were you worried? We knew

about it. Don't worry. uh uh our chief

uh uh our commander uh told us that uh

American wanted involved

they wouldn't get involved.

Yeah. uh as I uh already said uh I don't

know why uh but uh Preosian was

convinced that uh American forces

uh were not involved. Wow. Uh what's

this distance here?

What's the distance here? How many

kilometers?

uh between

uh my

uh units and uh first stronghold about

uh uh 300 m. 300 m. That's it. We we uh

moved uh very close uh to this uh uh

position and uh

we we

we have already

uh to

attack but uh uh American

uh prevented us from the any uh but what

you know what you know too is that what

your buddies will will say who were

there. So the the other key thing is

this is the Euphrates right here. Mhm.

And so during this kind

of counter ISIS operation, the Russians

and and and the Americans are trying to

figure out ways that they can deconlict,

right? So that no one is actually

shooting each other.

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uh because there's a lot of there's a

lot of guys running around in in this in

this area now. And so they they create

this kind of line of deconliction

between US backed forces in Syria and

Russian backed forces and the line is

pretty much the Euphrates River which is

right here. Mhm. And and that's

established and and so but the issue for

progosion is that the most profitable

oil fields are right across on the other

side of the deconliction line. And so

Morat and and Vagner what they're

doing prior to this is they're building

up their forces. They're testing a

little bit the line of deconliction

probably

because they cross the river and there's

this one little spot that is still

Russian territory. Uh

and so the the Americans are watching

this on the drones. Mhm. And and they're

seeing the buildup. They see it all day

and and eventually they at in the

evening they they start calling the

Russians over the deconliction line that

they have between the US and Russian

militaries and they say are these your

guys and the Russian military says no no

they denied it to

the uh Uh he denied to that is not

confirm. Yeah.

Confirm. Yeah. What did you initiate the

assault with?

Uh I have uh um

uh well I was supported firstly by the

artillery artillery.

So you were hitting Konico with

artillery. What they were first doing

was they were fake they were doing they

were faking artillery training cuz they

had set themselves up close. Mortal

Yeah. mortars. Mortal artillery. Uh

Americans uh very quickly uh suppressed

the activity of the any kind of

artillery.

And I left without any support. I have

a auto uh automatic rifle, machine gun,

uh automatic uh grenade launcher

uh 17 and uh some kind uh uh and two uh

two uh machine gun

uh heavily machine gun.

The fifth unit was nothing but against

the Well, the fifth unit had uh tanks,

right? There were two tanks. This tank

was

uh on the right side uh from me. Uh I uh

saw uh the tank only at the last time

uh before

uh before this tank was destroyed.

I I heard the uh

shoot. I hear the sound of shooting and

I uh come out uh uh out come out of the

position and I uh saw it uh our tank and

firstly I decided this is uh good for

me. But immediately after I

uh I

uh glanced on him, he was uh destroyed

by the

rocket and

uh and there was absolutely no and uh

there was a big uh explosion.

[Music]

This tank was completely destroyed

because what was going through your head

when

the Americans retaliated

to save my life?

Uh so

uh save uh lives of my

people. I uh cried to him uh run away

from here. Run away in any way. Run

away. But but only uh small

group only with a small group small

group two three person not uh not

gathering uh

but you wanted to disperse

but it

was in

vain they

uh unfortunately

uh I

in any way gather it together. Mhm. And

uh fall on the fire from the uh

helicopter and I lost uh 23

uh fighters uh 23 fighters was uh

killed. Were you close with them?

Were you friends with them?

It's it's a it was a very little time uh

to uh to become a friendship uh I I was

appointed on this uh position uh two and

a half

week before this uh

event 23 dead 28 wounded

Is that correct? In his unit only. In

your unit. Yeah.

I mean, I think the thing that is also

kind of important for people

to realize is, you know, it's it's

getting towards the

evening and and and Vagner, they're

feigning drills and then they attack,

right?

And uh the US is calling and they call

three times over the deconliction line

to the Russian Ministry of Defense and

they say are these your guys and three

times the Ministry of Defense says no

and so as you know and and your buddies

know uh that's when uh the US had the

green light to effectively defend

themselves against this attack.

And uh I think it's fair to say that uh

the uh the US uh defended itself in a

way that would send a

message as well. And I and the amount of

air power that that came

in was

uh probably disproportionate to the

threat and designed to to send a message

because I mean the the amount of of I

think I think Americans uh didn't care

uh didn't care of uh of the um

uh facility of the uh Russian army. I

really didn't care. They they uh they

was ready to

uh to strike in any case. Mhm. And they

Yeah, they were very I think they

absolutely didn't fear to use uh their

uh their weapons.

Yeah, that's generally the uh the

sentiment. I mean, these guys are at

war. That's what they want to do. No.

Yeah. And they did it. Mhm. And you said

I mean there the US brought in like two

Apaches. Two Apaches and two Spectre

gunships. Two spect which and Spectre

gunship is Russian generals. Russian

generals uh was completely confused by

this situation. Russian generals uh

didn't have a

uh ability uh an ability

to to

to take a responsibility and uh to make

a decision uh

uh independently. independently.

And when

he encounter uh with this

situation,

he he will he confused absolutely

because the question is right, why did

the Russian Ministry of Defense deny

Mhm. that it it was Russians who who

were attacking. And there there is an

argument I think to be made like

Proggoian his gamble in trying to take

Konico

uh was that when the when the

Americans saw that it was Russians

coming Mhm. the Americans would want to

avoid any direct

confrontation World War III and and they

would back away and retreat along with

with the Kurds. And he was incredibly

mistaken in in in that

calculation. Uh, and what I think he

wasn't counting on and what Marada is

saying is that when the Americans were

calling into the Ministry of Defense,

you have some poor guy on the line who

is also not going to be responsible for

World War II. And so the the quickest

thing that you're going to do is not

say, "Yeah, those are my guys attacking

US soldiers." You're going to say,

"Don't know anything about it. Don't

know what you're talking about." and try

to go to your higher ups to cover your

own butt. And so ultimately it was, you

know, it was probably he probably got

provosion probably had kind of a wink

and a nod from the Ministry of Defense

that he was going to try to do this and

if it worked out, it's a great Russian

victory for everybody. Assad, the

Russians progosion, and if it doesn't in

the Ministry of Defense's mind, it's

just Vagner guys who who are getting

killed.

Wow. How long did the battle go on for?

Uh how how long? Uh about 6 hour. 6

hours. uh from the uh from the midnight

to to to morning about midnight to

morning.

Uh 189

uh Russian machineries were killed in

this battle and 23 uh Syrian fighters

for man from my union was

killed. Uh, how many wounded? No, about

200.

200 dead. Two two units wounded. Two

units. 200 wounded. Two assault units

was completely destroyed, mate. I mean,

weapon

uh uh

technic and uh like 300 casualties

total.

Uh the next uh on the next day uh

Russian authority uh uh proclaimed that

no one Russian uh

suffered uh in this event.

Wow. No one. And you were responsible

for counting the bodies, right? And

reporting it. No. Yes, of course. Yeah.

And I I must to bring

the the body of the dead of the kill of

the dead death suran in uh in the town

uh in the city. We was uh headquarter of

uh my battalion. Oh, so he was there for

the ceremony of the the burial. Ah

burial. Yeah. I was before we get there,

what what what ended it? Why did they

stop? If they didn't kill everybody,

what stopped it? After after I uh coming

back uh from this battle, I gave an

order to send my people uh to bring body

and weapon uh on the battlefield.

brought uh from this area all

uh all body and all weapons that we

uh that was uh

uh left on this area uh during the

battle. So eventually in the morning,

the Ministry of Defense got in touch

with the Americans and it was agreed the

Americans agreed to a 2-hour pause so

that the Russians could collect weapons

and and debt. So if

the if the Ministry of Defense of Russia

initially denied this three different

times, then how do they contact the US

to ask to clean up the bodies?

They can uh they could

uh say us uh say uh so uh in the very

beginning and if they uh say yes okay uh

we uh I I will give an order to retreat

and uh

they if uh Russian generals to gave in

order to retreat. Uh nothing

happened. Uh everything will be fine.

But uh Russian

generals didn't know what to do in this

situation.

But eventually they they told the

Americans we need to we need to go

collect. So eventually they said there

might be some Russians there to the

Americans. Mhm. The thing is this uh it

uh it has already happened. Mhm. Yeah.

There's no denying it anymore. We we

were destroyed. Yeah. We were the whole

uh field was covered with copters and uh

uh burning uh burned uh tank uh

uh and uh trucks of our units.

Everyone uh who can move

uh left this area and uh

so there was only bodies left and come

to the bank of the river. Mhm. So there

were only bodies left. Yeah. Mhm.

And then the agreement was made that

they have two hours to go back to the

area to to to collect the dead.

How does that make you feel now knowing

that the Russian military had denied

three different times that it was

Russians on the ground and then also

told the Russian people that there were

Russians that were killed in that in

that battle?

Firstly, uh I think the American acted

as it

uh according to the situation

uh if I were on their place, I will do

the same

action. Uh it's a rules of war. If you

under attack, you uh must to protect

themsel

and uh wage and counter

attack.

Uh secondly, I think

uh it was bad think

uh from the side of our

chief. Uh it was uh let's say the

preusion and vagner was absolutely

uh wrong in this

situation. It's absolutely wrong. But uh

by Vagner he means boot. Yeah. Uh this

battle was a offensive uh uh was a

defensive action from the outside.

uh was under attack of Kurdish forces

and despite of the

uh heavy losses we can stay uh we can uh

stayed on our place and uh uh to protect

and protected uh our position. But what

surprised me very much

that many

of our guys that uh took part in this

battle accepted this version.

Wow. Wow. Accepted this version. It's a

nonsense.

Wow. But this is

true. I uh spoke uh uh with some guys

and uh trying to remind him

that do you remember we we are going to

assault

uh no one

uh attacked

us Uh we was uh we uh was

uh in initi we initiated this

events only we have a responsibility for

the

circumstances of uh this battle. I think

probably every American that fought that

day is going to watch this. Do you have

anything personally to say to them?

What? What? What can I say? Uh them they

as I already said they acted

uh as uh according to the

uh rule of

law.

Uh it was our initi initiative.

M nothing. So how long after the battle

did you leave Syria? Uh one year. One

year. But this is when you left Vagner

for Radut, right? Yes. When I left

Vagner, I start I joined

Reut. It only uh defended or like did

security for it was a different it was a

different PMC.

But their only job as a PMC was to

secure secure static static security.

Exactly. It it was not uh uh for me.

Let's take a quick break.

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So, you get back

Russia. How much longer was it until the

Ukraine war kicked off? After this

event, uh the this war

began

and and I left my country,

John, what was with

the what was the mutiny all about? Yeah.

So I

think you know Morat as he's saying he

he goes back he he finishes his

uh work in Syria but I mean after the

battle of

Kasham in which Morat participated I

mean already by this point we were

talking about it earlier Vagner is in

Sudan by this point

uh by around the same time as the battle

of Kasham they first started arriving

the central African Republic and then

they're go showing up in all sorts of

places in Africa, Libya and in Mali

and over there progression is acting

kind of independently like like we were

talking about um but as the battle of

Kasham kind of uh showed uh for Gojan

himself is not always on the same page

as the the ministry of defense and and

minister of defense

shoo uh and he's sort of a rock in their

shoe very often. You have to imagine

here's this guy who is kind of

technically supposed to with his forces

be subordinate, but he also has a mind

and ambition of his own. Mhm. And he can

occasionally uh get in front of Putin

himself and you can imagine what he's

saying about the people that he doesn't

like in front of Putin. So, you know,

imagine, you know, you're uh you're the

boss of an employee, but the employees

dad is the CEO, right? I mean, you know

that there's another channel that goes

up if you try to, you know, if you try

to boss them around. And

so, even though the the Ministry of

Defense and and Vagner are cooperating

in in Africa quite a bit, there's still

that interpersonal tension.

And so when uh when Putin makes the

decision to launch the full-scale war uh

in in Ukraine in February

2022, he gives, you know, the planning

of it over to uh the general staff and

in the Ministry of Defense and they want

nothing to do with progosion. And so

their thinking at the time is that this

is going to be a quick easy victory and

we can we can do it kind of in their

mind by by the book without having to

use guys like

Proggoian. And so in in the initial

month or so of the invasion, uh Vagner

is actually left out and Progosan is

pissed about it. He's calling up the the

guys in the GRU,

uh, try trying to figure out why his

guys aren't in it and then trying to get

his guys into it. And meanwhile, the the

kind of the very quick operation to take

Kiev does not go as planned and the

Russian military is suffering setbacks.

And so, Pgoan now has his opportunity to

to get his guys into uh the war. And you

know the thing about Vagner that I think

Morat would tell you too is that uh in

in the intervening years really since

Chetchna and you know a very brief war

with with Georgia not a lot of guys in

the Russian military have real battle

experience like not a lot of people have

been have been shot at. And so when when

Vagner comes in with its commanders,

they start delivering some quick

battlefield

victories. And so this puts Poggoan all

of a sudden in this like great position.

He's able to come out of the shadows and

he becomes a hero of Russia. He declares

himself, oh, he denied it always that he

was tied to Vagner Group. Now he

declares, "I was always the founder of

Vagner." and he's on state television

and as Morat said, this is a guy who

already has a big ego, right? And and

and the way that he always gets around

his rivals is by gambling big like at

like at Hasham. And so he starts also

promising things that he's going to do,

something that the generals would would

never do. And ultimately what he ends up

promising is that he's going to

basically Vagner is going to take Bakmu,

this kind of middlesized city, uh, from

Ukrainian forces. And the way that he's

going to do it is he gets exclusive

permission for a time to go to all of

Russia's prisons and and recruit

prisoners to the front line. And so he

shows up and he goes himself. I mean

he's all he's he's a guy who does a lot

of things himself. Yes. He was deprived

for the resources of of the

mobilization.

Yeah. He wasn't allowed to have actual

soldiers. And so he gets the the

convicts. And so he shows up at at at

these Russian penal colonies and he they

gather all the prisoners into the the

prison yard. and he comes in in his

helicopter and he he comes in and and he

speaks in front of all of the prisoners

and he says, "You know, I have an offer

for you. You you can come and fight for

me for for 6 months and if you survive

uh your you're a free man and your

criminal record uh is

expuned." and he tells them that uh my

losses are worse than Stalin broad which

you know obviously resonates with uh

with with Russians and

uh ultimately about 50,000 guys sign up

and and the tactic that progosion is

going to use to take Bakmoot is the

human human wave tactic. And so these uh

these convicts, they get two weeks

training

uh usually I think just inside kind of

the the border with Ukraine and in uh

around Luhansk and then after that

they're they're sent to the front and uh

basically they're they're put in small

units and the each small unit go one

unit will go out attack the Ukrainian

position you know eight guys might be

killed. But two guys get into the trench

and they do some damage before getting

killed. And before the Ukrainians have a

chance to recover, another unit of

convicts is coming through. And so it's

a very

inefficient way to to wage war, but it

is effective over time. And so it uh uh

uh the thing is that this uh uh main

uh the main reason for this operation

was to attract uh as many uh Ukraine

forces Mhm. as uh as it uh possible in

order to prevent uh from the attacks uh

uh on on the other uh areas of areas of

the front line. Yeah. And uh as you can

imagine, it's a huge front line now,

right? In in in Ukraine. In the

beginning, the first phase of the war on

Donbos, you know, it's a it's a little

section of of the Donbos region. Now

it's, you know, like a thousand

kilometers long maybe or something. And

so he's a he's also engaged with the

Ukrainians. Uh and the Ukrainians are

sending some of their best guys to

defend Bachmood. while for the Russian

government uh they're losing in their

mind some of the worst people in society

right these convicts and so you know

it's like a 4:1 ratio in terms of losses

but it's something that the the Russians

and and progosion are willing to do for

the reasons that Marat said but you know

at this point though progosion is like

an intern like we all know who Pgoan is

right during the Bachmood campaign he

becomes like the face of the war itself.

CNN is trying to reach him. The New York

Times is trying to reach him for an

interview. He's, you know, he's huge

back home in Russia. He's like, finally

everything that he, you know, his ego is

matched now by, you know, his his his

popularity. Yes. In this term,

the uh Wagner group uh completely

falfeed his mission in this war.

they uh achieve his their goals that

would uh stand before him before them.

Yeah. uh they uh

uh attract uh many uh

uh a lot of uh Ukraine

forces and give the opportunity for the

Russian uh army to pre uh

prepare more uh mobilizing

reserve and uh to build the uh defensive

line

uh on the uh in the area of uh

Zaparos Zaparoske district but still I

mean there's still a lot of enmity

between the minister of defense Sergey

Shuyu and and Pgojan and so at some

point inevitably especially since Pgojan

is having all of this success like Morat

mentioned

the Ministry of Defense is going to want

to check him. And so the the first way

that they do it is they they start

cutting off progosion from convict

recruitment. So he's he's promised to

Putin, I'm going to take Bakmoot, but

his means of doing so now is

disappearing. He needs a lot of bodies.

Mhm. To take Bachmood. The Ministry of

Defense is cutting him off of those

bodies. Not because they're against

prisoner recruitment. they just start

doing it

themselves. But the difference is and

this is always the issue for progosion

is when he was doing it, he had the

permission by like a wink and a nod from

the presidential administration. When

the Ministry of Defense does it, Russian

Parliament officially makes it legal for

them to recruit from prison. So there's

always a way that progosion can get

screwed over in in whatever he's doing.

So he's he's getting cut off. And so now

he starts going public with the Ministry

of Defense saying, "I'm not getting

enough

ammunition for for what we're trying to

do." And the the Ministry of Defense is

screwing over Vagner by not giving by

not giving us enough ammunition

ammunition that we need. And so now this

spat starts going very public over

social media. And then

ultimately Shyu and Fosian at this point

hate each other's guts.

and the Ministry of Defense. Then kind

of like their final

uh kind of counterattack on provosion is

they get the Kremlin to agree that all

soldiers fighting in Ukraine on behalf

of Russia have to sign a contract with

the Ministry of Defense. Only those who

fight on the front line. Those on the

front line. Yeah. And so for Pergoan,

you can imagine he's this big guy now in

Russia. He's got thousands and thousands

of men ostensibly under his command. And

he recognizes that this is making him

political, too.

And so all of the sudden, the Ministry

of Defense is taking those men out from

underneath him. And I think for him what

what he saw was the writing on the wall

that at the very least when I no longer

have Vagner group it means that I'm

going to kind of disappear into

obscurity which he wasn't able to do at

that point. He couldn't just retire and

be quiet. He was incapable of that. But

also without those men he's no longer he

doesn't have political leverage anymore

and it could result in his ultimate

demise. And so he has to figure out a

way how do I convince Putin to choose

between me and Shyu because Putin is is

choosing Shuyu right now. And so the

decision is made that uh Vagner is going

to turn back from Ukraine into southern

Russia and and they're going to capture

and kill the Minister of Defense. Wow.

And so, uh, on June 23rd, uh,

2023, Vagner crosses back over.

Progosian claims that that the Ministry

of Defense hit them with a rocket

attack, which seems to be not the case.

False attack, but it's the pretext,

absolutely false attack, but the pretext

is now that we're going to go capture,

we're going to go arrest Shuyu and and

uh, another general, Gasimo. And so they

they go back into Russia and they they

take over they surround and take over

the southern Russian uh Russia's

southern military command and Rasto and

they're looking for Shuyu but Shuyu has

already escaped and so the generals who

are there they try to talk Pogo down.

Yes. Pregusion uh thought that the when

uh uh when he proposed the uh uh to make

a choice. Mhm. Between them between him

and uh between Troyu uh

Pogan will choose of course him. Putin

will choose Posh. Yes. And he also he

also thinks too or is hoping in the back

of his mind that all of that popularity

that he had from being on social media

and being on Russian TV on the front

lines of Bakmoot means that the the the

soldiers in the Russian military itself

are on his side too.

and and and so he goes and and they've

taken the military command and and the

generals who are there are trying to

talk him down and they're not able to do

it. And so Possian announces that

they're going to have a march for

justice on Moscow and and the column of

Vagner the Vagner column turns from

southern uh Russian military command and

starts heading up the highway uh to

Moscow. And I mean this is I mean I

think everybody was glued to their TV

screens to see like Vagner uh column

heading on Moscow and and the mayor of

Moscow they started digging up the

highway around Moscow to prevent uh

their you know their potential arrival

uh Vagner shoots down I think a number

of helicopters and and and planes about

13 people were killed. Um, but each

time, you know, he's he's getting

provosion is getting closer and closer

Moscow and he's also kind of going into

empty space. And so now he he's trying

communicate to to Putin that all he is

trying all he is trying to do is is take

out his rivals Shyu and Garasimov. He's

not trying to

overthrow Putin himself. No. Oh, but the

issue is the closer he's getting to

Moscow, the more he could accidentally

be unleashing a coup because it's going

to be such a destabilizing moment. And

so at at at some point he's trying to

say, "I'm not overthrowing the

government." But now it's getting close

to looking like he might overthrow the

government if he gets into Moscow.

and and behind the scenes uh the

president of Bellarus, Alexander

Lucenko, is negotiating between Putin's

side and

Pgoan and and eventually he he gets

Progosian to agree to to to halt the

march and I think for Progos himself he

was a little bit relieved because he was

realizing that events were going out of

his control by I mean they were hardly

in his control beforehand but they were

as the closer he was getting to Moscow

and they got within 150

miles, things were really starting to to

get out of control and he backed down.

And you could make an argument that the

guy who had, you know, an insane risk

tolerance, you know, from going after,

you know, going against Americans in the

battle of Kasham and and, you know,

risking his neck saying he's going to

take Bakmoot. This was perhaps the one

moment where he should have doubled down

and gone all the way to to Moscow, but

but he chose not to. And no, Porgan

didn't want to take over the power.

Yeah. uh and uh I think uh preorgan uh

eventually realized uh

that he didn't take into account one

simple

thing. Uh Putin don't need the ministry

of defense uh professional ministry of

the uh qual uh qualifying and the

efficiency minister for defense. He need

a close

alliance supporter. Yeah.

Uh and uh when realized soldier himself

no when Pushian realized that

uh in any case uh

he cannot to achieve his goal. Uh he

gave an order to turn turn around

and that sealed his fate ultimately 3

months later. As far as a conflict

between the Ministry of Defense and

Prejud this conflict was

permanent. Uh the main reason uh uh uh

from the moment of the creation the

uh brigade uh brigade of mercenaries

brigade and from the moment when uh

priusion uh

uh become a sole curator of this project

this

uh conflict began. Yeah. Yeah, cuz it

works for system too. The main reason of

course money. Yeah,

preiona

group uh uh was

funded by passing the ministry of

defense and shyu was deprived from the

opportunity to use this money for uh to

to profit from this flow of the money

cuz that's how you make big money.

Russia is by off of the state budgets.

So everything is a battle over the flow

of budget because the more budget that

comes your way, the more you can mine

your own budget. Yes, of course. Uh

precaution uh

was group was funded directly from the

uh state

budget uh by passing by passing. Yeah.

And it went all the way down. And so one

of the reasons

that like pe one of the ways that people

were making money in in Donbos in 2014

2015, right, is you're a

commander and you tell you say you tell

the Ministry of Defense, oh, I have 200

guys under my command. The Ministry of

Defense pays your salaries, but you

actually have 150 or 125 guys under your

command. So, But not the case in the

term of the preion preion don't he was

at a

bigger some uh

some small small money that's small

money laundering though

so was he assassinated

yes

uh and do you think

uh I don't know what exact who exactly

to exactly was

who who was the actual person who did it

he doesn't know who is actual person who

did

it uh prior uh had a many enemies

So, you're saying it could have been

anybody. It might not have been the

Ministry of Defense or Putin himself. I

think a lot of people uh would put it on

uh the FSB, which is the kind of the

Russian successor to the KJB, which

handles domestic threats for uh for

Putin as of course

the in the decision uh the final

decision. The final decision. Putin made

a final decision. Of course, of course.

Who made the final decision? Only with

his permission.

Uh that was that can be happened. Yeah.

But who came up with the entire plan?

Who was uh

who was uh executives? Yeah. This uh uh

time will show. So what is Wagner Group

today?

right

now since

prejin cease to exist. So everything

everything became subordinate to the

ministry of defense. Okay. But the thing

was is that you kind of as we were

talking about like the relationship

between Vagner and the state was also

different in each place and and so in

Syria like when Morat was there you know

they get everything from the Ministry of

Defense. They're probably paid through

the Ministry of Defense. They're working

very closely. They have Russian air

power that's support. I mean this is

like a ministry of defense operation.

when you get to like the Central African

Republic, there's not as much support

from the Kremlin and so and so some kind

of autonomy. There's a degree of

independence, they're opening up

breweries. Like Ministry of Defense

doesn't want breweries or they have

these gold mines. And so when Progoion

is gone, the Ministry of Defense has to

figure out how do we take over all of

these things? Cuz Progosan wasn't just

involved with mercenaries like Morat. He

had troll farms. He had like chocolate

museums in St. Petersburg. He had mining

companies. The main body of uh this

project was not a vagna group. Vagnner

group only part of uh this project. PNA

group, the military group that uh

uh was you used uh for the create for

the creation of the favorable

environment uh to promote a business

project of progosion. So like Vogner

what basically is part of the Vagner was

a way for progosion to overcome his

status as you know an ex-con and try to

show his worth to eventually join

Putin's inner circle. Mhm. He was never

really able to do it. But so when he

when he when he died, the it was

relatively easy for the Ministry of

Defense in places like Syria or Libya

just to have guys sign new contracts and

to take over. But where they were acting

independently in like the Central

African Republic central

def showed up and they were like they

couldn't understand it. There's

breweries. There's all sorts of things

going on. And so the decision is made if

it's not broke, let's not fix it. Let

them just kind of keep doing their

thing. The industrial forj Central

African Republic uh uh

uh this is a resource for the benefit of

the president of Russia and he's in a

circle. Yeah. So I think some account

numbers got changed in terms of the

transfers. Okay. It's a little bit diff

difficult uh to take over. Yeah. Cuz

they don't they don't understand it

fully. Only the guys who work there know

how it works. Bag groups bug group is

over. It's over.

Well guys, thank you. Thank you for so

much for for being here today and for

sharing all that information. And I just

want to ask you one thing. You know, we

we'd had a conversation earlier about

your feelings on on the Russian invasion

of Ukraine, and now you're here in

France seeking asylum. I'm just curious

if you have

anything to say to Putin.

Get out. Get out.

Get out.

You are enemy for my

country. You You are the main problem

for my

country and you're in his inner

circle. Well, thank you both for being

there. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it.

Thank you.

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YouTube Transcript:Marat Gabidullin - Wagner Group Commander / Russian Mercenary | SRS #195

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Marat Gabidullin - Wagner Group Commander / Russian Mercenary | SRS #195