YouTube Transcript:
Marat Gabidullin - Wagner Group Commander / Russian Mercenary | SRS #195

This is my first ever interview with an
enemy combatant, a commander from
Russia's
infamous Vagner
Group. It's a little bit of a language
barrier with this one. So bear with us
cuz there is some very interesting
information in this episode. And if you
can bear with the language barrier, I
think you're going to get a lot out of
this and learn a lot about Vagner Group,
how they came about, their
training, and the caliber of men that
they had working there. Enjoy the
[Music]
show. Morat Gabulan, welcome to the
show. Thank you. It's nice to meet you,
John. Thank you for being here. wanted
to bring you on here to uh to fill in a
couple of gaps with the language
barrier. Sure. Barack Gabulan, born in
Eurol, you grew up in Usuzbekiststan and
joined the Soviet military in
1984. Served as a paratrooper officer
and commanded a recon company, then
joined Russia's Vagner Group, starting
as a grunt fighting ISIS in Syria and
rising all the way to commander. You
worked closely with Vagner boss Pragoian
advising the ISIS hunters in Syria and
fought in the battle of Kasham in 2018
against US and Kurdish forces. You then
quit Vagner in 2019, authored a book
about your time with Vagner and since
then you have moved to France where
you're now seeking asylum. This
interview is taking place in Paris. Um,
obviously we couldn't get you to the US,
so we came here to to meet you. Feels
really weird for me to say this, but you
are you are an enemy combatant and
um you fought in in a skirmish in Syria
and against 40 US
soldiers, special forces soldiers, and
I'm friends with a couple of those guys
and heard their account uh of that
battle. and then uh we ran into your
your friend John Lechner and um asked to
be connected with you. So I just want to
thank John, a freelance journalist,
writer and researcher who's been in
conflict zones across the globe. Author
of the book Death is Our Business:
Russian mercenaries and the new era of
private warfare. Expert on Russia's
moves in Africa, their Foreign Policy
and Private Military Companies. So thank
you again for being here. But thanks for
having me. I wanted to I want to dive in
on a little bit of the history of Vagner
Group. Yeah. And so how how did it how
did it start? Well, so as Morat was
telling you,
Vagner really began in in 2014 and Morat
as he was saying he he joined the
company as they call it. They only on
the inside call it the company. Vagner
Group itself as an entity never existed.
It was sort of just a nickname uh that
that was given to it. Some of my uh
friends told me that in Russia emerged
the some kind of structure uh where I
can start
uh my life from the very beginning.
Vagner initially came out of uh the war
in eastern Ukraine and uh its founder
was a guy prior who who Morat has
mentioned a couple of times. This is a
guy who
uh was born in uh the 60s and in the
Soviet Union and sort of grew up on the
wrong side of the tracks. He he was a a
petty thief and kind of a small time
gangster uh in his teenage years and he
uh goes away to prison uh at the age of
18 if I remember correctly uh for
assault and robbery. He and his gang
were uh on a street in Lenningrad which
became St. Petersburg. Uh and they forgo
came up behind a woman and and strangled
her uh until she almost died and then
they they robbed her and he was caught
and sent away for for nine years and and
when he gets out the Soviet Union is
collapsing around him and he returns to
his native St. Petersburg where uh first
he falls in with some gangsters again in
the in in the '9s which Marott had kind
of alluded to uh previously with these
various crime bosses and things and so
he falls in with some crime bosses
himself uh and they set him up as a
manager of some grocery chain uh grocery
store chains. Uh he eventually turns
that into becoming a restaurant tour of
uh some very kind fancy restaurants in
St. Petersburg that a younger Vladimir
Putin enjoyed and he leveraged uh those
relationships to eventually get getting
the job of providing meals uh to the
whole Russian military and the Russian
school system. So he became close with
Putin through his restaurant tours.
Well, as you'll see kind of as as we go
through the story, he he he manages to
connect with Putin. Putin likes him, but
he's never able. He would always say
that he was about one handshake away
from Putin. And so Putin gets to know
him. He he kind of likes him because
he's uncou. He he he he's kind of has
that sort of rough kind of attitude
which is somewhat refreshing given kind
of the bureaucratic uh elite that are
surrounding Putin. And so Prosian
eventually gets uh this job to provide
the meals for the Russian military.
Um, and so that that takes us to around
2014 or so when
uh well, we have to go back a little bit
uh a little bit further. So, you know,
while he's doing this work as a
contractor, he he also is looking for
different ways that he can look good and
get on Putin's radar. One of the ways he
does it is there were massive protests
against Putin's return to the presidency
in 2012.
Uh and and so Bogosian puts together
this kind of documentary that that shows
how all the protesters are fake,
basically supported by the West. And you
know, he finances it himself. It's not
like Putin is doing this, but it's a way
to to virtue signal and show, hey, you
know, I'm furthering the cause of, you
know, Putin's cause and and Russia's
cause more broadly.
And so, as I said, Putin is coming to
the presidency again in 2012. There are
massive destabil destabilizing protests
against
it. And he navigates it and and and gets
back into power. But pretty much fairly
quickly thereafter, another revolution
is happening. This time on Russia's
border in Ukraine, what became the
Maidon revolution in late 2013.
And for Putin, he he sees these two
things as connected, right? It's it it's
the West basically trying uh to
overthrow Russia, overthrow his own
regime, and they're doing it wherever
they can. And so the Kremlin in early
2014 makes a decision to annex Crimea,
which is a peninsula on the Black Sea
that is uh part of Ukraine. It had
beforehand been part of Russia uh during
the Soviet period, but it it went to
Ukraine during the Soviet Union and
Russia's Black Sea fleet is there. This
is the only warm water port that they
have and it's it's important. And so
amidst all this chaos, the uh the
Kremlin decides to annex Crimea. They
use special forces to do it, but then
they also rely on these kind of like
right-wing Russian nationalist
chauvinists uh kind of the folks in sort
of Russia's own nationalist militant
movement to provide some of the security
on the peninsula for the
annexation. And after its success, the
Kremlin thinks everything's done and
dusted. But kind of
unbeknownst to them at the time or kind
of something that was unexpected was
that amidst this revolution in Ukraine,
there's also an anti-Maidon movement
especially in eastern Ukraine in this
region called Donbos which is
economically and culturally closer to
Russia. And so as Ukrainians are taking
over government government buildings to
overthrow uh the government of
Yanukovich, anti-Maidon protesters are
taking over these buildings in Donbos
and Dyetsk and in
Luhansk. And this puts uh Putin and the
Kremlin into a difficult situation
because unlike Crimea, they didn't want
to annex uh eastern Ukraine. Donbos,
it's not that important to Russia. But
uh Putin is kind of boosting his
nationalist credentials by annexing
Crimea. Gives a big kind of rally around
the flag effect. And crucially, this is
a rally around the flag from from people
who these nationalists, these Russian
nationalists and and militant guys who
were against Putin's rule in 2012 and
were marching against him. And so he
can't be seen as hang letting these uh
separatists in eastern Ukraine hang out
to dry. but he doesn't want to risk
further sanctions from the west,
international isolation. And so the
Kremlin has to think very quickly like
how do we support but not support these
separatists in eastern Ukraine?
and and and this is where Yfghdi
Prigoian the the guy who's providing the
meals uh for the Russian military uh
becomes acquainted with uh another guy
Dmitri Utkin who is a former uh GRU
officer uh Russian military
intelligence. He fought in Cheschna. uh
he was stationed uh near Estonia and he
had just come back and and almost got in
big trouble for this kind of
misadventure uh with a Russian PMC in
Syria. The these two guys come together
and they sign an
agreement whereby uh Utkin will provide
the tactical knowledge, provide the men
as contractors and Progoian will provide
the political backing and the financial
support for this mercenary group that is
very closely if not basically as Morat
was saying a ministry of defense
project. Mhm. That they send into
eastern Ukraine. right across the border
to support the separatists. It's
interesting because when I interviewed
Eric Prince, we had spoken about Eric
Prince
earlier. They reached out to Eric Prince
to try to help build Vagnner Group off
of Blackwater.
Did you know that? Uh to tell the truth,
I am not completely agree with this
opinion. Firstly, Watner
group has nothing to do with
uh with uh private sector. So what was
the recruitment? How do they recruit
their their fighters? So as Morat was
saying, I mean it's word of mouth
basically. Um and and I think Morat will
tell you uh later as well the the
initial group of Vagner
uh wi-i which came out of uh this uh PMC
that had the year before gone to Syria.
So there before Vagner, there were a
number of kind of what we would think of
as like western style PMC's that had
popped up. Uh and largely in response to
the Somali piracy crisis, which I'm sure
you remember. Um there there was an
opportunity for these Russian
contractors to to protect Russian ships
that are going through the Gulf of
Aiden. uh a number of Russian
contractors were even working in Iraq
during uh the war on terror as well. the
the issue is that mercenarism is illegal
in Russia technically. And so these
firms would uh basically establish
themselves in like Hong Kong or you know
the Bahamas or something along those
lines and then the the client would
provide them with the weapons when they
showed up going through a third a third
country to protect the ship or or what
have you. Um, and there was this one
group called Moran Group where uh Dmitri
Utkin after he left uh the service went
to go work for and and one of the
founders of Moran uh got a contract with
uh with a Syrian oligarch in
2013 to at least what the guys thought
at the time to to basically protect uh
oil and gas assets uh from ISIS. And
when they showed up, uh it turned out
that the Syrians wanted them to actually
take those assets uh from ISIS. And uh
there was almost like a little mutiny
among the contractors, but you know,
they went ahead and they got ambushed
and Dimmitri Udken uh actually got the
guys out safely during a sandstorm. They
all go back to Russia kind of with their
tail between the legs uh and the FSB,
the successor to the KGB, arrests and
charges the the the two commanders who
went to Syria with mercenarism. Lupin,
who's like one level below, gets off
along with all the rest of the guys. And
only a couple of months later, all of a
sudden, Russia needs mercenaries. they
know who, you know, is interested in
this type of work because they almost
arrested the the guy in Syria. And so,
uh, those same 50 guys or so formed the
core of what was just then called the
company. And Dimmitri Udken uh who uh is
a fan of uh the German composer uh
Richard Vagner takes his call sign uh
Vagner in in Donbos and since he was the
the main commander eventually it becomes
kind of the catchall term for uh the
company more more generally. Okay. And
so, so it it sounds like when Morat came
in, it was about 600 people. So when
when Morat first came in in April
2015, I think it was getting close to
about uh 600 guys. He can correct me uh
if I'm wrong. And and Marat was coming
in
uh in in April 2015. So this is right
around the time that Russia is actually
trying to
uh sort of get to a ceasefire
uh and and and take over the the these
separatist republics uh at the time. And
so when when Morat joined
uh Vagner was a bit different at the
time. It was one of many different
forces that the MOD was using to support
these separatists and no one thought
that uh it was going to become what it
became. Mhm. Uh and and so it was one of
several units that were kind of figuring
out ways to bring volunteers in to
support the separatists and and Vagner
at that time had this group of 50 guys
or so who who had who had been in Syria,
but they also
uh had had a unit of Serbian volunteers
that were coming through. And so when
Morat joined uh he he was initially part
of the the international brigade which
was largely Serbian and he had a Serbian
commander. Eventually the Serbs would be
kind of kicked out kicked by the wayside
later on when when when we got to Syria.
But uh when when Morat joined
uh it was a few months before some of
the final big battles uh before we saw
what was called the Minsk 2 ceasefire uh
between Ukraine and the separatist
statelets backed by Russia at the time.
Oh good. Oh good. What is it true that
they started recruiting out of the
prisons a conflict situation with a
crime boss?
With a crime boss. He's a crime
boss. And
uh what was the situation? Is a criminal
u using any opportunity to
uh
to to take some money from from
anyone. And this situation emerge on the
empty place.
Uh but as a result
uh during uh the during uh one of uh
during the
meeting I shoot him. You shot him? Shot
him. And I was sentenced to three years
in prison. Where did you shoot him?
Where? In the head. Uh,
no. In the body. In the body. Body and
then in the
head. I was in prison in Kasnayars in
Siberia. Uh, at the time I served in uh
Siberia. Uh, our regimen was removed uh
from the Kishov to Siberia.
uh after uh Soviet Union collapsed.
So they uh the I think Vagner at the
beginning and and I think this what
Morat will tell you was uh for the most
part
uh guys who had military experience like
Morat. Uh guys who had trouble adjusting
to civilian life in in in some shape or
form and and and wanted to experience
the adventure and camaraderie again. uh
and and largely through word of mouth
were recruited to the company when they
found out there was this opportunity uh
in Ukraine or eventually later on in
Syria uh and elsewhere. And so for the
most part it was guys coming out of the
military. Maybe they had a brush with
the law like Morat had to to put it
lightly. Um, but the the full convict
recruitment program where pro if you saw
the videos of Progosian going around to
all of the penal colonies and and
recruiting prisoners, that only happened
uh after 2022 for Russia's full-scale
invasion of Ukraine. Okay. So, there
were definitely dudes who had served
prison time, got out, and then joined
Vagner, but they they weren't recruiting
from from the prisons at that time. It
was really, I mean, if I remember
correctly, Morat's
uh it was Morat's buddy from his
military times who who recruited him uh
just by word of mouth. He said, "Hey,
I'm doing this. Do you want to do you
want to join?" What was the what was the
test like? You said you had to take some
type of a test to get into Vodkna Group.
You have to meet the time and uh push up
uh 55 time. 55 push-ups. Push up. A 3
kilometer run. Mhm. Were there any
tactics involved like room
clearance entering a building? Oh, no.
No, no, nothing like that. No. What are
these guys getting paid? They I mean I
think it depended, but they usually were
getting about $2,000 a a month during uh
their time on the contract. Um and so
this is pretty good money uh in in
Russia for for guys. So um it it's
definitely a motivating factor. What
what is it developed into? I mean
they're in Africa. Yeah. They're in
Ukraine. They're aren't they doing
breweries? They're doing all kinds of
stuff. Yeah. What what all are they
involved in?
So what what I think is interesting
about this story because Morat will will
tell you you know this was very much a
stateup supported uh entity but and you
know we can ask Morat as well again I I
also don't think it could have become
what it was if it weren't for the
ambition of its founder Yi Piggoian as
well and and and so uh kind of If we
look at what was happening in Ukraine in
2015, a lot of those units that the MOD
was supporting after the ceasefire, they
just kind of, you know, dispersed, went
home, uh, didn't really do much after.
But, uh, only a few months later,
Russia's overtly intervening in Syria.
There's there's nothing covert about it,
right? It's a full, you know, air
campaign with the the Russian military.
Um and and
Pgojan uh and and and Utkin are very
much also lobbying to make sure that he
gets his guys into there because he has
now this kind of force at his disposal.
Well, and what he's good at is trying to
figure out, okay, I have this now. What
do I do with it? Mhm. And and and it was
at this point where I think he he saw
the black waters of the world and he
said, "Okay, I want to do kind of my
version of this." And it and it so
happened that Syria was going to be the
next opportunity for him to do so. Um
and so uh Morat was one of the first
guys uh on the ground in Syria. Um as
he'll tell you uh they the mod didn't
really know what to do with them and a
couple of guys got killed uh and and
they didn't want casualties right away
so they panicked and and sent them home.
And it was only until it became clear
that Russian air power alone wasn't
going to defeat the the rebels uh rebels
against Assad or or ISIS. Uh that Vagner
was brought back in this time, you know,
on the ground where they they take
Palmira, then they get sent home again,
then they get back in and Morat will
tell you all about the battle of Kasham.
But it it gets to that point where it's
it's this mix, right? They have state
backing, but Progosian is also out there
with his guys basically doing business
development, right? If you have if you
have a
PMC, where are you going to market your
services? You have to go to Africa at
some point. Otherwise, you you should
fire your your B and D guy. And and and
so already in
2017, Progosan is uh sending his guys
out to to drum up new business. They
they first uh signed a contract with the
the Sudin to provide training and they
get access to uh mining concessions in
Sudan. Uh then they show up in the
Central African Republic where there's
really no other kind of competition from
other Russians. And so Posian is able to
provide training. He offers his uh like
information warfare cuz he has patrol
farms which were kind of very famous in
the US during the 2016 elections. Uh and
his guys go out and they try to start
breweries and they go into gold mining
and and what have you. They act as Morat
was saying very independently of the
Kremlin because the these places aren't
that important to Russia. And so in the
places that aren't aren't important, he
has to figure out his own ways to
finance interesting these these
operations. And so they go from the
Central African Republic, they're in
Libya back in Haftar in uh in his bid to
take Tripoli in
2019. Then they show up in Mali, uh
where they they signed a a deal with the
Malian government to to go after uh
various jihadi groups. uh and then
ultimately they
uh are initially left out of the
full-scale invasion uh of Ukraine in in
February 2022 and only get brought in uh
when when the Russian government's in
trouble. So these guys are not they're
definitely not just in Russia's best
interest. They're doing they're doing
their own thing in all these separate
parts of the world. Yeah. But I think I
think you know
that it's
not because people are always asked, you
know, is this a private thing or or a
public thing? And the answer is is both.
And I mean, we're in Paris right now,
but when I'm sitting in Washington DC, I
I try to explain to people like this is
the capital of public private
partnerships, right? Loheed Martin uh is
a profit- driven company. Mhm. They will
frame whatever they're doing as
furthering America's national defense
and security, but they're also a profit
profit driven. And so a lot what
Pogosian was very good at was selling
back to the Kremlin this dream of kind
of Russia's expansion abroad. Gotcha.
And he and he could sell it back to
Putin the these different initiatives
that were also just happened to be, you
know, potentially profitable to him.
Interesting.
Interesting. All right, let's uh let's
move to Syria.
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Morat, let's go to when you got on the
ground in Syria.
first time in uh September in
2015. I think uh
preion is looking for the opportunity to
implement this uh completely new concept
of the using uh military
forces and uh he want to demonstrate
uh the ability combatability of the
mercenaries and uh we uh delivered uh to
Sura uh by the scheduled
uh civilian flight uh of
uh civilian uh to tell the truth uh
military Russian military
uh
firstly look at uh looked at us vis is a
surprise. They don't know didn't know
who we are and uh what we uh to do here
and
uh uh how they must to treat
us. And
uh we after we received the weapon
uh we take uh
uh take a part in uh several several uh
military action and demonstrated
uh the whole
superiority on the uh uh superiority
over uh
enemy And uh of course uh the whole
superiority over the Bashar Assad
army. But I think uh uh at that moment
uh Russian military uh and Syrian
military
uh thought that uh
they handle this situation uh without
us. Uh Russian military thought that if
uh they provided
uh uh Syrian army with strike support
uh Syrian army uh can achieve uh the
victory in this war. But it turned out
uh that uh Suran army
uh
degradated to the point
of
inability to wage offensive uh action.
And so like as Morat is saying when when
Russia first intervenes in Syria,
uh one of the reasons that they're doing
it actually it's after the annexation of
Crimea and uh they recognize the
importance of Syria at that time for the
US and for the West because this is if
you look remember 2015 this is when uh
ISIS is really at its at its height with
the territorial uh caliphate and the US
has already uh intervened, gone back in
to to fight ISIS. And so the Russians
think that uh if we go in backing Assad,
we can kind of force the US into a joint
counterterrorism operation against ISIS
that will force them to kind of
basically start talking to us again. Oh,
good. And so they come in and they're
backing Assad. But as Morat's saying,
Assad's government, I mean, the the
forces that he has are incredibly
uh unmotivated. I mean, for obvious
reasons given his his rule. And the
rebels, not just ISIS, but all the other
rebels fighting against them are a lot
more motivated. And the Russians
initially wanted it to just be uh an air
campaign. But I mean, as you find out
pretty quick, like air just air
campaigns alone rarely worked for
anybody. Uh, and it was clear that
Russian air power with Assad's forces on
on the ground were not going to was not
going to work. They were not going to
take the territory back from from
rebels. And so, but they they they they
face an issue at the time, which I think
you speak to as well, where they this is
kind of a farway intervention for Russia
and they haven't figured out yet if they
want to have actual Russian troops on
the ground and what Russians will think,
the Russian public will think if Russian
soldiers are going home in in caskets.
and and there's a sense that they're
going to be against this and say why why
are we here in Syria? And so one of the
reasons that Marat and Vagner were able
to get back in is that the Russian
military didn't have to report
casualties for Vagner.
and uh
uh uh using the mercenaries. Is this war
uh to take an uh
to to uh
uh could uh resolve uh the very
uh very main uh uh very difficult uh uh
task. Uh
uh the thing is that uh Russian uh
generals invented the concept of the war
with a little
bloodshed and using the
mercenaries they can um
create no some kind of uh appearances
that this uh concept is working.
uh lost of the
mercenaries didn't it include in the
official
statistic. Okay, that makes sense. So,
so correct me if I'm wrong, but the
whole point of Russia going into Syria
to include Vagner was to build some type
of an alliance with the United States.
Yeah, it was an effort against ISIS. It
was an effort because uh in part there's
always a lot of reasons why why things
happen, but the
the timing of their intervention because
if you remember
uh you know Syria started going into
civil war right around the time of the
Arab Spring. So this is already like 5
years before that.
uh the Russians didn't have any
particular love for Assad despite the
fact that there was a Russian base in
Syria and kind of some history going
back to the Soviet Union. What what
really explains the timing of why they
went in was this sense of isolation that
they felt after the annexation of Crimea
in 2014 in Ukraine. And it was this
effort to basically get themselves onto
the world stage again in a crisis that
they thought was uh existentially
important to the West, which was the the
defeat of ISIS. Of course, also when
they show up and they're on the ground,
Assad also has different ideas for what
he wants the Russians to do. And ISIS is
less of a concern to him than a lot of
the more secular uh rebels uh elsewhere
as well. and that he wants the Russians
to go after those guys, whereas the
Russians want to go try and meet up with
the Americans as they're closing in uh
on on ISIS as the territorial caliphate
is is kind of crumbling down.
Interesting. Interesting. Well, let's
talk about let's talk about the battle
of Kashan between Vagner and US social
forces. So, like I mentioned, I have I
have friends that were in that battle.
Um it sounds like there was around
500 Vagner group
um soldiers on the ground. There were 40
US special forces guys along with a
couple with uh with a Kurdish partner
force. And so let's just start with the
beginning.
What what were you doing that close to
American forces?
From the very beginning
uh this uh
factory uh was a very important uh this
factory enclosed all infrastructure
uh of the oil field nearby
uh around nearby Konaka and Prejan
wanted to cease this factory uh
uh during the battle uh for the deor but
we have no enough uh resources. Uh we
constantly
uh we forced uh to
uh to attract our forces uh in order to
uh in order to achieve a goal
uh in order to take liberate the zor. uh
our lives uh was very undecisively uh
acted very undecisively
uh and uh we cannot uh using uh our
forces uh in order to advance forward.
H can I put can I put like a little bit
before where so
uh like what was like why did Pgoian
want to take the these Kico facilities?
Mhm. And so in in
2016, Morat and Vagner, they capture
Palmira from from ISIS and and Morat has
I think some of the medals from that and
from that time period that that they'll
show. But after the capture, the Russian
military sends Vagner home again. Mhm.
And and then a few months later, ISIS
recaptures it. Palmira and Vagner comes
back in. But this time, Pgoan has signed
a deal with Assad's government.
Uh, and part of the the deal is is that
Vagner will uh participate in the
counter offensive and Proggoian and and
his companies get a 25% share of the
proceeds of the oil and gas assets that
are
recuperated. And so Pgojan has this
massive incentive now to go out uh
against ISIS and and capture as much of
those assets as he as he can. And and so
in 2017, Morat uh and and Vagner are are
back in Syria. And this is right around
the time where uh ISIS is collapsing.
The US uh is backing the the Kurdish
SDF. The SDF is coming from the
northeast south. They're heading for uh
the ISIS's capital, Raqqa.
and Vagner and Assad forces are heading
north. And at a certain point, there's
this factory that Morad is talking about
called Kanuko, which is sort of the
crown jewel of of all the assets. It's
it's valued in the hundreds of millions
of dollars, and it was at one of ISIS's
like most valuable assets for for fuel
smuggling.
must reach
uh uh most profitable uh oil field in
Sura. So So Pogoan wants this. Mhm. And
he's sending letters too to the Syrian
government saying that they're not
upholding their end of the bargain that
he's spending all of this money on the
offensive and the Syrians aren't paying
him. So he he sees Kico as the way to
kind of get profit get profitability,
get get out of the red and into the
black. The only issue is that as ISIS is
collapsing, everyone is thinking what a
post ISIS world is going to is going to
look like. So the Kurds with the
blessing of of the US start moving away
from Raqqa and heading south towards
their resort and there's a rush for
who's going to get this conicle plant
when ISIS is gone and the SDF the the
Kurdish forces backed by special forces
get there
first and then this is where
for
Gojan uh make a made a mistake Uh he
thought that he can
uh uh he can uh achieve uh uh his goal
uh
uh as a result in negotiation with the
olders of the Kurdish tribe. But at that
time
um uh
functioners of the SPS
uh was in charge of the of the whole
thing and oldest uh uh the oldest uh of
of the tribes they like uh
pur uh elders uh uh they uh guarantee uh
they gave a guarantee that uh Kurdish
forces retreat
uh as soon as we started to move
forward but uh
they just died
uh how many guys how How many guys did
you have gathered to attack Kico at that
time? I think about 502 units uh karp
and fifth uh assault uh units and uh my
uh my group
uh that consist of suran fighters
uh 75
75 75 this is this
was only units uh of Surrian that uh
took part in this action. No one else,
only Russian mercenaries and this group
of uh Syrian
fighters. only this I
uh I had to
uh advance uh on the left flank and uh
take over to take over uh two
stronghold. Uh we advanced on
the start line of
attack
but American prevented us. They
uh
uh strike uh on uh on the second
echelon headquarter
uh artillery uh
position.
Um
uh the ar the armory uh
armory and then uh they uh shift uh the
fire on us.
Did you guys fire on them
uh from the sky? Uh, American uses for
at the beginning American uses only
aviation. Mhm. Uh, had two spectre
gunships and two Apaches
helicopters. Yeah. Uh, oh, combat
uh combat drones. uh
uh
uh
spooky and
uh combat
helicopter.
Um so what what was what was going
through your head when you knew that so
US special operations initiated the
attack? No, no, no. You should what you
should you what you should tell them is
start from uh the the beginning of the
morning because this happened on
February 8th, right? Feb February uh the
night uh the night of February between
uh 7 and 7 February and and you were in
the
room the day before or a couple of days
before where Utken he comes in and he
says we're going to take this from the
Americans. Yeah. And and someone said,
"Are the Americans going to be there?"
And he said, "Yeah, yes, I don't know
why, but uh Posh decided that American
uh wanted
involved and uh that the Americans come
back. Uh the thing is
the preion
uh have uh uh have a one
uh
future character it's like um
personality trait from time to time his
ego his ego ego uh
uh right uh uh roast above the common
sense. May maybe something that it might
be it might look cool. Um and no one has
done this
before if we get a piece of paper and
Moro can show where the Americans were
and how Vagner came over with the with
the arrows and stuff. That way that way
people can get
Yeah. No one's done this
before.
So, do you want to show you have the the
river Euphrates? Mhm. Then you want to
show where Konico is and then where
Vagner in the US was. Uh
uh
Yafrat
[Music]
Kik we we were completely destroyed.
So this is this is our position. This is
your position. Factory. This is Quanico.
Yeah. And this is the Kurds in the US.
No, the Kurds in the US are in here in
the Quanico facility. This is Vagner's
two positions right here. They're inside
the facility. No, no, no. Facility is
around like this and then they go and
attack that. But the US was inside the
facility. US was inside the facility. So
you So Vagner initiated an attack.
Initiate. It's it's what a planned uh
action
with signs of the false
uh artillery assault from the Kurdish
and you guys you knew that US special
operations were in the factory. Yes, we
know about it. Were you worried? We knew
about it. Don't worry. uh uh our chief
uh uh our commander uh told us that uh
American wanted involved
they wouldn't get involved.
Yeah. uh as I uh already said uh I don't
know why uh but uh Preosian was
convinced that uh American forces
uh were not involved. Wow. Uh what's
this distance here?
What's the distance here? How many
kilometers?
uh
uh between
uh my
uh units and uh first stronghold about
uh uh 300 m. 300 m. That's it. We we uh
moved uh very close uh to this uh uh
position and uh
we we
we have already
uh to
attack but uh uh American
uh prevented us from the any uh but what
you know what you know too is that what
your buddies will will say who were
there. So the the other key thing is
this is the Euphrates right here. Mhm.
And so during this kind
of counter ISIS operation, the Russians
and and and the Americans are trying to
figure out ways that they can deconlict,
right? So that no one is actually
shooting each other.
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uh because there's a lot of there's a
lot of guys running around in in this in
this area now. And so they they create
this kind of line of deconliction
between US backed forces in Syria and
Russian backed forces and the line is
pretty much the Euphrates River which is
right here. Mhm. And and that's
established and and so but the issue for
progosion is that the most profitable
oil fields are right across on the other
side of the deconliction line. And so
Morat and and Vagner what they're
doing prior to this is they're building
up their forces. They're testing a
little bit the line of deconliction
probably
because they cross the river and there's
this one little spot that is still
Russian territory. Uh
and so the the Americans are watching
this on the drones. Mhm. And and they're
seeing the buildup. They see it all day
and and eventually they at in the
evening they they start calling the
Russians over the deconliction line that
they have between the US and Russian
militaries and they say are these your
guys and the Russian military says no no
they denied it to
the uh Uh he denied to that is not
confirm. Yeah.
Confirm. Yeah. What did you initiate the
assault with?
Uh I have uh um
uh well I was supported firstly by the
artillery artillery.
So you were hitting Konico with
artillery. What they were first doing
was they were fake they were doing they
were faking artillery training cuz they
had set themselves up close. Mortal
Yeah. mortars. Mortal artillery. Uh
Americans uh very quickly uh suppressed
the activity of the any kind of
artillery.
And I left without any support. I have
a auto uh automatic rifle, machine gun,
uh automatic uh grenade launcher
uh 17 and uh some kind uh uh and two uh
two uh machine gun
uh heavily machine gun.
The fifth unit was nothing but against
the Well, the fifth unit had uh tanks,
right? There were two tanks. This tank
was
uh on the right side uh from me. Uh I uh
saw uh the tank only at the last time
uh before
uh before this tank was destroyed.
I I heard the uh
shoot. I hear the sound of shooting and
I uh come out uh uh out come out of the
position and I uh saw it uh our tank and
firstly I decided this is uh good for
me. But immediately after I
uh I
uh glanced on him, he was uh destroyed
by the
rocket and
uh and there was absolutely no and uh
there was a big uh explosion.
[Music]
This tank was completely destroyed
because what was going through your head
when
the Americans retaliated
to save my life?
Uh so
uh save uh lives of my
people. I uh cried to him uh run away
from here. Run away in any way. Run
away. But but only uh small
group only with a small group small
group two three person not uh not
gathering uh
but you wanted to disperse
but it
was in
vain they
uh unfortunately
uh I
in any way gather it together. Mhm. And
uh fall on the fire from the uh
helicopter and I lost uh 23
uh fighters uh 23 fighters was uh
killed. Were you close with them?
Were you friends with them?
It's it's a it was a very little time uh
to uh to become a friendship uh I I was
appointed on this uh position uh two and
a half
week before this uh
event 23 dead 28 wounded
Is that correct? In his unit only. In
your unit. Yeah.
I mean, I think the thing that is also
kind of important for people
to realize is, you know, it's it's
getting towards the
evening and and and Vagner, they're
feigning drills and then they attack,
right?
And uh the US is calling and they call
three times over the deconliction line
to the Russian Ministry of Defense and
they say are these your guys and three
times the Ministry of Defense says no
and so as you know and and your buddies
know uh that's when uh the US had the
green light to effectively defend
themselves against this attack.
And uh I think it's fair to say that uh
the uh the US uh defended itself in a
way that would send a
message as well. And I and the amount of
air power that that came
in was
uh probably disproportionate to the
threat and designed to to send a message
because I mean the the amount of of I
think I think Americans uh didn't care
of
uh didn't care of uh of the um
uh facility of the uh Russian army. I
really didn't care. They they uh they
was ready to
uh to strike in any case. Mhm. And they
Yeah, they were very I think they
absolutely didn't fear to use uh their
uh their weapons.
Yeah, that's generally the uh the
sentiment. I mean, these guys are at
war. That's what they want to do. No.
Yeah. And they did it. Mhm. And you said
I mean there the US brought in like two
Apaches. Two Apaches and two Spectre
gunships. Two spect which and Spectre
gunship is Russian generals. Russian
generals uh was completely confused by
this situation. Russian generals uh
didn't have a
uh ability uh an ability
to to
to take a responsibility and uh to make
a decision uh
uh
uh independently. independently.
And when
he encounter uh with this
situation,
he he will he confused absolutely
because the question is right, why did
the Russian Ministry of Defense deny
Mhm. that it it was Russians who who
were attacking. And there there is an
argument I think to be made like
Proggoian his gamble in trying to take
Konico
uh was that when the when the
Americans saw that it was Russians
coming Mhm. the Americans would want to
avoid any direct
confrontation World War III and and they
would back away and retreat along with
with the Kurds. And he was incredibly
mistaken in in in that
calculation. Uh, and what I think he
wasn't counting on and what Marada is
saying is that when the Americans were
calling into the Ministry of Defense,
you have some poor guy on the line who
is also not going to be responsible for
World War II. And so the the quickest
thing that you're going to do is not
say, "Yeah, those are my guys attacking
US soldiers." You're going to say,
"Don't know anything about it. Don't
know what you're talking about." and try
to go to your higher ups to cover your
own butt. And so ultimately it was, you
know, it was probably he probably got
provosion probably had kind of a wink
and a nod from the Ministry of Defense
that he was going to try to do this and
if it worked out, it's a great Russian
victory for everybody. Assad, the
Russians progosion, and if it doesn't in
the Ministry of Defense's mind, it's
just Vagner guys who who are getting
killed.
Wow. How long did the battle go on for?
Uh how how long? Uh about 6 hour. 6
hours. uh from the uh from the midnight
to to to morning about midnight to
morning.
Uh 189
uh Russian machineries were killed in
this battle and 23 uh Syrian fighters
for man from my union was
killed. Uh, how many wounded? No, about
200.
200 dead. Two two units wounded. Two
units. 200 wounded. Two assault units
was completely destroyed, mate. I mean,
weapon
uh uh
technic and uh like 300 casualties
total.
Uh the next uh on the next day uh
Russian authority uh uh proclaimed that
no one Russian uh
suffered uh in this event.
Wow. No one. And you were responsible
for counting the bodies, right? And
reporting it. No. Yes, of course. Yeah.
And I I must to bring
the the body of the dead of the kill of
the dead death suran in uh in the town
uh in the city. We was uh headquarter of
uh my battalion. Oh, so he was there for
the ceremony of the the burial. Ah
burial. Yeah. I was before we get there,
what what what ended it? Why did they
stop? If they didn't kill everybody,
what stopped it? After after I uh coming
back uh from this battle, I gave an
order to send my people uh to bring body
and weapon uh on the battlefield.
brought uh from this area all
uh all body and all weapons that we
uh that was uh
uh left on this area uh during the
battle. So eventually in the morning,
the Ministry of Defense got in touch
with the Americans and it was agreed the
Americans agreed to a 2-hour pause so
that the Russians could collect weapons
and and debt. So if
the if the Ministry of Defense of Russia
initially denied this three different
times, then how do they contact the US
to ask to clean up the bodies?
They can uh they could
uh say us uh say uh so uh in the very
beginning and if they uh say yes okay uh
we uh I I will give an order to retreat
and uh
they if uh Russian generals to gave in
order to retreat. Uh nothing
happened. Uh everything will be fine.
But uh Russian
generals didn't know what to do in this
situation.
But eventually they they told the
Americans we need to we need to go
collect. So eventually they said there
might be some Russians there to the
Americans. Mhm. The thing is this uh it
uh it has already happened. Mhm. Yeah.
There's no denying it anymore. We we
were destroyed. Yeah. We were the whole
uh field was covered with copters and uh
uh burning uh burned uh tank uh
uh and uh trucks of our units.
Everyone uh who can move
uh left this area and uh
so there was only bodies left and come
to the bank of the river. Mhm. So there
were only bodies left. Yeah. Mhm.
And then the agreement was made that
they have two hours to go back to the
area to to to collect the dead.
How does that make you feel now knowing
that the Russian military had denied
three different times that it was
Russians on the ground and then also
told the Russian people that there were
no
Russians that were killed in that in
that battle?
Firstly, uh I think the American acted
as it
uh
uh according to the situation
uh if I were on their place, I will do
the same
action. Uh it's a rules of war. If you
under attack, you uh must to protect
themsel
and uh wage and counter
attack.
Uh secondly, I think
uh it was bad think
uh from the side of our
chief. Uh it was uh let's say the
preusion and vagner was absolutely
uh wrong in this
situation. It's absolutely wrong. But uh
by Vagner he means boot. Yeah. Uh this
battle was a offensive uh uh was a
defensive action from the outside.
We
uh was under attack of Kurdish forces
and despite of the
uh heavy losses we can stay uh we can uh
stayed on our place and uh uh to protect
and protected uh our position. But what
surprised me very much
that many
of our guys that uh took part in this
battle accepted this version.
Wow. Wow. Accepted this version. It's a
nonsense.
Wow. But this is
true. I uh spoke uh uh with some guys
and uh trying to remind him
uh
that do you remember we we are going to
assault
uh no one
uh attacked
us Uh we was uh we uh was
uh in initi we initiated this
events only we have a responsibility for
the
circumstances of uh this battle. I think
probably every American that fought that
day is going to watch this. Do you have
anything personally to say to them?
What? What? What can I say? Uh them they
as I already said they acted
uh as uh according to the
uh rule of
law.
Uh it was our initi initiative.
M nothing. So how long after the battle
did you leave Syria? Uh one year. One
year. But this is when you left Vagner
for Radut, right? Yes. When I left
Vagner, I start I joined
Reut. It only uh defended or like did
security for it was a different it was a
different PMC.
But their only job as a PMC was to
secure secure static static security.
Exactly. It it was not uh uh for me.
Let's take a quick break.
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So, you get back
to
Russia. How much longer was it until the
Ukraine war kicked off? After this
event, uh the this war
began
and and I left my country,
John, what was with
the what was the mutiny all about? Yeah.
So I
think you know Morat as he's saying he
he goes back he he finishes his
uh work in Syria but I mean after the
battle of
Kasham in which Morat participated I
mean already by this point we were
talking about it earlier Vagner is in
Sudan by this point
uh by around the same time as the battle
of Kasham they first started arriving
the central African Republic and then
they're go showing up in all sorts of
places in Africa, Libya and in Mali
and over there progression is acting
kind of independently like like we were
talking about um but as the battle of
Kasham kind of uh showed uh for Gojan
himself is not always on the same page
as the the ministry of defense and and
minister of defense
shoo uh and he's sort of a rock in their
shoe very often. You have to imagine
here's this guy who is kind of
technically supposed to with his forces
be subordinate, but he also has a mind
and ambition of his own. Mhm. And he can
occasionally uh get in front of Putin
himself and you can imagine what he's
saying about the people that he doesn't
like in front of Putin. So, you know,
imagine, you know, you're uh you're the
boss of an employee, but the employees
dad is the CEO, right? I mean, you know
that there's another channel that goes
up if you try to, you know, if you try
to boss them around. And
so, even though the the Ministry of
Defense and and Vagner are cooperating
in in Africa quite a bit, there's still
that interpersonal tension.
And so when uh when Putin makes the
decision to launch the full-scale war uh
in in Ukraine in February
2022, he gives, you know, the planning
of it over to uh the general staff and
in the Ministry of Defense and they want
nothing to do with progosion. And so
their thinking at the time is that this
is going to be a quick easy victory and
we can we can do it kind of in their
mind by by the book without having to
use guys like
Proggoian. And so in in the initial
month or so of the invasion, uh Vagner
is actually left out and Progosan is
pissed about it. He's calling up the the
guys in the GRU,
uh, try trying to figure out why his
guys aren't in it and then trying to get
his guys into it. And meanwhile, the the
kind of the very quick operation to take
Kiev does not go as planned and the
Russian military is suffering setbacks.
And so, Pgoan now has his opportunity to
to get his guys into uh the war. And you
know the thing about Vagner that I think
Morat would tell you too is that uh in
in the intervening years really since
Chetchna and you know a very brief war
with with Georgia not a lot of guys in
the Russian military have real battle
experience like not a lot of people have
been have been shot at. And so when when
Vagner comes in with its commanders,
they start delivering some quick
battlefield
victories. And so this puts Poggoan all
of a sudden in this like great position.
He's able to come out of the shadows and
he becomes a hero of Russia. He declares
himself, oh, he denied it always that he
was tied to Vagner Group. Now he
declares, "I was always the founder of
Vagner." and he's on state television
and as Morat said, this is a guy who
already has a big ego, right? And and
and the way that he always gets around
his rivals is by gambling big like at
like at Hasham. And so he starts also
promising things that he's going to do,
something that the generals would would
never do. And ultimately what he ends up
promising is that he's going to
basically Vagner is going to take Bakmu,
this kind of middlesized city, uh, from
Ukrainian forces. And the way that he's
going to do it is he gets exclusive
permission for a time to go to all of
Russia's prisons and and recruit
prisoners to the front line. And so he
shows up and he goes himself. I mean
he's all he's he's a guy who does a lot
of things himself. Yes. He was deprived
for the resources of of the
mobilization.
Yeah. He wasn't allowed to have actual
soldiers. And so he gets the the
convicts. And so he shows up at at at
these Russian penal colonies and he they
gather all the prisoners into the the
prison yard. and he comes in in his
helicopter and he he comes in and and he
speaks in front of all of the prisoners
and he says, "You know, I have an offer
for you. You you can come and fight for
me for for 6 months and if you survive
uh your you're a free man and your
criminal record uh is
expuned." and he tells them that uh my
losses are worse than Stalin broad which
you know obviously resonates with uh
with with Russians and
uh ultimately about 50,000 guys sign up
and and the tactic that progosion is
going to use to take Bakmoot is the
human human wave tactic. And so these uh
these convicts, they get two weeks
training
uh usually I think just inside kind of
the the border with Ukraine and in uh
around Luhansk and then after that
they're they're sent to the front and uh
basically they're they're put in small
units and the each small unit go one
unit will go out attack the Ukrainian
position you know eight guys might be
killed. But two guys get into the trench
and they do some damage before getting
killed. And before the Ukrainians have a
chance to recover, another unit of
convicts is coming through. And so it's
a very
uh
inefficient way to to wage war, but it
is effective over time. And so it uh uh
uh the thing is that this uh uh main
uh the main reason for this operation
was to attract uh as many uh Ukraine
forces Mhm. as uh as it uh possible in
order to prevent uh from the attacks uh
uh on on the other uh areas of areas of
the front line. Yeah. And uh as you can
imagine, it's a huge front line now,
right? In in in Ukraine. In the
beginning, the first phase of the war on
Donbos, you know, it's a it's a little
section of of the Donbos region. Now
it's, you know, like a thousand
kilometers long maybe or something. And
so he's a he's also engaged with the
Ukrainians. Uh and the Ukrainians are
sending some of their best guys to
defend Bachmood. while for the Russian
government uh they're losing in their
mind some of the worst people in society
right these convicts and so you know
it's like a 4:1 ratio in terms of losses
but it's something that the the Russians
and and progosion are willing to do for
the reasons that Marat said but you know
at this point though progosion is like
an intern like we all know who Pgoan is
right during the Bachmood campaign he
becomes like the face of the war itself.
CNN is trying to reach him. The New York
Times is trying to reach him for an
interview. He's, you know, he's huge
back home in Russia. He's like, finally
everything that he, you know, his ego is
matched now by, you know, his his his
popularity. Yes. In this term,
the uh Wagner group uh completely
falfeed his mission in this war.
they uh achieve his their goals that
would uh stand before him before them.
Yeah. uh they uh
uh attract uh many uh
uh a lot of uh Ukraine
forces and give the opportunity for the
Russian uh army to pre uh
to
prepare more uh mobilizing
reserve and uh to build the uh defensive
line
uh on the uh in the area of uh
Zaparos Zaparoske district but still I
mean there's still a lot of enmity
between the minister of defense Sergey
Shuyu and and Pgojan and so at some
point inevitably especially since Pgojan
is having all of this success like Morat
mentioned
the Ministry of Defense is going to want
to check him. And so the the first way
that they do it is they they start
cutting off progosion from convict
recruitment. So he's he's promised to
Putin, I'm going to take Bakmoot, but
his means of doing so now is
disappearing. He needs a lot of bodies.
Mhm. To take Bachmood. The Ministry of
Defense is cutting him off of those
bodies. Not because they're against
prisoner recruitment. they just start
doing it
themselves. But the difference is and
this is always the issue for progosion
is when he was doing it, he had the
permission by like a wink and a nod from
the presidential administration. When
the Ministry of Defense does it, Russian
Parliament officially makes it legal for
them to recruit from prison. So there's
always a way that progosion can get
screwed over in in whatever he's doing.
So he's he's getting cut off. And so now
he starts going public with the Ministry
of Defense saying, "I'm not getting
enough
ammunition for for what we're trying to
do." And the the Ministry of Defense is
screwing over Vagner by not giving by
not giving us enough ammunition
ammunition that we need. And so now this
spat starts going very public over
social media. And then
ultimately Shyu and Fosian at this point
hate each other's guts.
and the Ministry of Defense. Then kind
of like their final
uh kind of counterattack on provosion is
they get the Kremlin to agree that all
soldiers fighting in Ukraine on behalf
of Russia have to sign a contract with
the Ministry of Defense. Only those who
fight on the front line. Those on the
front line. Yeah. And so for Pergoan,
you can imagine he's this big guy now in
Russia. He's got thousands and thousands
of men ostensibly under his command. And
he recognizes that this is making him
political, too.
And so all of the sudden, the Ministry
of Defense is taking those men out from
underneath him. And I think for him what
what he saw was the writing on the wall
that at the very least when I no longer
have Vagner group it means that I'm
going to kind of disappear into
obscurity which he wasn't able to do at
that point. He couldn't just retire and
be quiet. He was incapable of that. But
also without those men he's no longer he
doesn't have political leverage anymore
and it could result in his ultimate
demise. And so he has to figure out a
way how do I convince Putin to choose
between me and Shyu because Putin is is
choosing Shuyu right now. And so the
decision is made that uh Vagner is going
to turn back from Ukraine into southern
Russia and and they're going to capture
and kill the Minister of Defense. Wow.
And so, uh, on June 23rd, uh,
2023, Vagner crosses back over.
Progosian claims that that the Ministry
of Defense hit them with a rocket
attack, which seems to be not the case.
False attack, but it's the pretext,
absolutely false attack, but the pretext
is now that we're going to go capture,
we're going to go arrest Shuyu and and
uh, another general, Gasimo. And so they
they go back into Russia and they they
take over they surround and take over
the southern Russian uh Russia's
southern military command and Rasto and
they're looking for Shuyu but Shuyu has
already escaped and so the generals who
are there they try to talk Pogo down.
Yes. Pregusion uh thought that the when
he
uh uh when he proposed the uh uh to make
a choice. Mhm. Between them between him
and uh between Troyu uh
Pogan will choose of course him. Putin
will choose Posh. Yes. And he also he
also thinks too or is hoping in the back
of his mind that all of that popularity
that he had from being on social media
and being on Russian TV on the front
lines of Bakmoot means that the the the
soldiers in the Russian military itself
are on his side too.
and and and so he goes and and they've
taken the military command and and the
generals who are there are trying to
talk him down and they're not able to do
it. And so Possian announces that
they're going to have a march for
justice on Moscow and and the column of
Vagner the Vagner column turns from
southern uh Russian military command and
starts heading up the highway uh to
Moscow. And I mean this is I mean I
think everybody was glued to their TV
screens to see like Vagner uh column
heading on Moscow and and the mayor of
Moscow they started digging up the
highway around Moscow to prevent uh
their you know their potential arrival
uh Vagner shoots down I think a number
of helicopters and and and planes about
13 people were killed. Um, but each
time, you know, he's he's getting
provosion is getting closer and closer
to
Moscow and he's also kind of going into
empty space. And so now he he's trying
to
communicate to to Putin that all he is
trying all he is trying to do is is take
out his rivals Shyu and Garasimov. He's
not trying to
overthrow Putin himself. No. Oh, but the
issue is the closer he's getting to
Moscow, the more he could accidentally
be unleashing a coup because it's going
to be such a destabilizing moment. And
so at at at some point he's trying to
say, "I'm not overthrowing the
government." But now it's getting close
to looking like he might overthrow the
government if he gets into Moscow.
and and behind the scenes uh the
president of Bellarus, Alexander
Lucenko, is negotiating between Putin's
side and
Pgoan and and eventually he he gets
Progosian to agree to to to halt the
march and I think for Progos himself he
was a little bit relieved because he was
realizing that events were going out of
his control by I mean they were hardly
in his control beforehand but they were
as the closer he was getting to Moscow
and they got within 150
miles, things were really starting to to
get out of control and he backed down.
And you could make an argument that the
guy who had, you know, an insane risk
tolerance, you know, from going after,
you know, going against Americans in the
battle of Kasham and and, you know,
risking his neck saying he's going to
take Bakmoot. This was perhaps the one
moment where he should have doubled down
and gone all the way to to Moscow, but
but he chose not to. And no, Porgan
didn't want to take over the power.
Yeah. uh and uh I think uh preorgan uh
eventually realized uh
that he didn't take into account one
simple
thing. Uh Putin don't need the ministry
of defense uh professional ministry of
the uh qual uh qualifying and the
efficiency minister for defense. He need
a close
alliance supporter. Yeah.
Uh and uh when realized soldier himself
no when Pushian realized that
uh in any case uh
uh
he cannot to achieve his goal. Uh he
gave an order to turn turn around
and that sealed his fate ultimately 3
months later. As far as a conflict
between the Ministry of Defense and
Prejud this conflict was
permanent. Uh the main reason uh uh uh
from the moment of the creation the
uh brigade uh brigade of mercenaries
brigade and from the moment when uh
priusion uh
uh become a sole curator of this project
this
uh conflict began. Yeah. Yeah, cuz it
works for system too. The main reason of
course money. Yeah,
preiona
group uh uh was
funded by passing the ministry of
defense and shyu was deprived from the
opportunity to use this money for uh to
to profit from this flow of the money
cuz that's how you make big money.
Russia is by off of the state budgets.
So everything is a battle over the flow
of budget because the more budget that
comes your way, the more you can mine
your own budget. Yes, of course. Uh
precaution uh
was group was funded directly from the
uh state
budget uh by passing by passing. Yeah.
And it went all the way down. And so one
of the reasons
that like pe one of the ways that people
were making money in in Donbos in 2014
2015, right, is you're a
commander and you tell you say you tell
the Ministry of Defense, oh, I have 200
guys under my command. The Ministry of
Defense pays your salaries, but you
actually have 150 or 125 guys under your
command. So, But not the case in the
term of the preion preion don't he was
at a
bigger some uh
some small small money that's small
money laundering though
so was he assassinated
yes
uh and do you think
uh I don't know what exact who exactly
uh
to exactly was
who who was the actual person who did it
he doesn't know who is actual person who
did
it uh prior uh had a many enemies
So, you're saying it could have been
anybody. It might not have been the
Ministry of Defense or Putin himself. I
think a lot of people uh would put it on
uh the FSB, which is the kind of the
Russian successor to the KJB, which
handles domestic threats for uh for
Putin as of course
the in the decision uh the final
decision. The final decision. Putin made
a final decision. Of course, of course.
Who made the final decision? Only with
his permission.
Uh that was that can be happened. Yeah.
But who came up with the entire plan?
Who was uh
who was uh executives? Yeah. This uh uh
time will show. So what is Wagner Group
today?
right
now since
uh
prejin cease to exist. So everything
everything became subordinate to the
ministry of defense. Okay. But the thing
was is that you kind of as we were
talking about like the relationship
between Vagner and the state was also
different in each place and and so in
Syria like when Morat was there you know
they get everything from the Ministry of
Defense. They're probably paid through
the Ministry of Defense. They're working
very closely. They have Russian air
power that's support. I mean this is
like a ministry of defense operation.
when you get to like the Central African
Republic, there's not as much support
from the Kremlin and so and so some kind
of autonomy. There's a degree of
independence, they're opening up
breweries. Like Ministry of Defense
doesn't want breweries or they have
these gold mines. And so when Progoion
is gone, the Ministry of Defense has to
figure out how do we take over all of
these things? Cuz Progosan wasn't just
involved with mercenaries like Morat. He
had troll farms. He had like chocolate
museums in St. Petersburg. He had mining
companies. The main body of uh this
project was not a vagna group. Vagnner
group only part of uh this project. PNA
group, the military group that uh
uh was you used uh for the create for
the creation of the favorable
environment uh to promote a business
project of progosion. So like Vogner
what basically is part of the Vagner was
a way for progosion to overcome his
status as you know an ex-con and try to
show his worth to eventually join
Putin's inner circle. Mhm. He was never
really able to do it. But so when he
when he when he died, the it was
relatively easy for the Ministry of
Defense in places like Syria or Libya
just to have guys sign new contracts and
to take over. But where they were acting
independently in like the Central
African Republic central
def showed up and they were like they
couldn't understand it. There's
breweries. There's all sorts of things
going on. And so the decision is made if
it's not broke, let's not fix it. Let
them just kind of keep doing their
thing. The industrial forj Central
African Republic uh uh
uh this is a resource for the benefit of
the president of Russia and he's in a
circle. Yeah. So I think some account
numbers got changed in terms of the
transfers. Okay. It's a little bit diff
difficult uh to take over. Yeah. Cuz
they don't they don't understand it
fully. Only the guys who work there know
how it works. Bag groups bug group is
over. It's over.
Well guys, thank you. Thank you for so
much for for being here today and for
sharing all that information. And I just
want to ask you one thing. You know, we
we'd had a conversation earlier about
your feelings on on the Russian invasion
of Ukraine, and now you're here in
France seeking asylum. I'm just curious
if you have
anything to say to Putin.
Get out. Get out.
Get out.
You are enemy for my
country. You You are the main problem
for my
country and you're in his inner
circle. Well, thank you both for being
there. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it.
Thank you.
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