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Maxine Sander live Q&A | The Alex Sanders Lectures – Rose Ankh Publishing | RoseAnkh Publishing | YouTubeToText
YouTube Transcript: Maxine Sander live Q&A | The Alex Sanders Lectures – Rose Ankh Publishing
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This content is an interview with Maxine Sanders, a prominent figure in modern witchcraft, reflecting on her experiences, the evolution of the craft, and offering advice for practitioners and those seeking to establish communities.
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Do you know they've been trying to get
me to sit in that throne all week?
The answer is still no.
I hope you're going to ask some good
questions. I don't mind how
um awkward you think they are. I'll have
Sorry. >> Next.
>> Next.
>> Hi, Maxine. Thank you so much for taking
the time out to do this. First off, and
I'm sure everyone's chuffed to pieces
that you're here. If you could rewind time
time
to when you first started, would you do
anything differently? And second part of
the question would be what advice would
you give now to people trying to set up
a coven or trying to do something that's
more communitydriven in this world?
>> Don't hate me. That's two questions. Sorry.
Sorry.
>> Would I do anything differently? Oh yes,
lots and lots of things different. But
then I I wouldn't have the confidence. I
I didn't have the confidence then when I
was young and at the famous time in the
60s in Notting Hill Gate. I was the shy,
reserved one, which I think I benefited
from because I learned a lot. I watched
and saw a lot and didn't have that much
to say, and that's why I learned.
Um, so would I change things? I'd like
to think I could change things with
knowledge I have now. And I think I
What was the next part of the question?
>> Why would you have been more secretive
though? because one of the reasons that
you are so respected and legendary is
because you weren't and you were very
brave at that time.
>> I think as time's gone by I've become
more involved with uh ritual practice
and with the magical work and I don't
find that
um comfortable in with the public life.
It was Alex that was the flamboyant one
who couldn't help but attract publicity.
And of course it was quite handy to have
um a size 10
on his arm. Um and I very rarely said
anything anyway, but it made me more
observant. But I I grew I think I always
had a love of the mystery
um occultwise spiritually.
Um and then as time went by, I became
more involved with ritual and seeing how
to work ritual. I dislike empty ritual.
I dislike ritual just for ritual's sake.
Everything for me in ritual has to have
a meaning and it has to have a desire, a
curiosity as to what you're going to get
out of that ritual. So you I don't think
you can combine that with television
studios or film studios.
>> That that that's advice in itself I
think really. But is there anything you
would add to that for for people who are
trying to set up a coven or trying to
set up a community around themselves
that that that we're leaning?
>> Um there are so many covens nowadays.
There's there's a coven for everybody.
There's a coven for those of them that
want counseling. There's a coven for
those that want to feel part of a community.
community.
And then you get the co covens of the
shadows who actually want to be a coven
to do the magical work.
and not be family. That's another thing
I don't like very much nowadays. It
comes across all the time about oh it's
family. Um sis row
my sister and my brother
um they are my relationship with them is
totally different to my relationship
with those that I work in a circle with
the circle the bond that you have with
your uh initiates is totally different
to any other bond it goes deeper it goes
higher it goes lower you don't have to
like the people in the circle, but that
bond is always there.
Did that answer?
I'm notorious for rambling, so forgiven.
>> Who's got the next question?
>> Um, hello. Uh, I I'm Lucas from Poland.
I'm a high priest, an Alexandrian high
priest, and also I'm working for uh in
the academic university. I'm half
Polish, half half French. My friend, my
po English is not good enough. So I will
ask my high priest who is better in
English to translate. >> Hello.
>> uh where did this idea of publishing the
especially that like at one point I was
asked to translate the previous version
of the lectures
and you we know that there have been
some misunderstandings connected to that
but still we would like to like give you
a copy of our like his translation of
>> and we were
like we would like we were curious about
uh like the reasons of like getting
another copy another version of the the
>> and especially since the the Polish
version with the pictures
and the new version are kind of similar
but without the the comments and the
like the additional content. And >> okay,
>> okay,
thank you very much. That's very sweet
of you. I won't understand a word of it,
you know.
>> Oh, thank you. >> Similar.
>> Similar.
>> Thank you. You asked.
>> So the question primarily is why a new
version of the lectures now. and
somebody uh who I won't name
um suggested it and was rather pushy in
it and then and I thought I thought it's
only going to be the lectures again
again and then she said would you do
you're doing the commentary on it aren't
you am I yes and then I sort of went
very quiet for a while hoping that she'd
forget and she didn't and so that's how
it came about um to to do a commentary
because when those when the lectures
and I read them and it's so simple, so
simple. There's not there's nothing
complicated. There's nothing big-minded.
There's no big names. Uh it was and the
craft has changed enormously. It's
evolved since then. Um, and then I
thought, well, actually, it's
interesting to look back and see how we
practiced. Um, you know, I was talking
to somebody the other day. We when we
first dotted, we would work in a 9- ft circle.
circle.
And it's it's very tight in a 9 foot
circle. And then we realized that
actually if we could cast a 9 ft circle,
we could cast a 20ft circle. So, we got
rid of that and things. But it it was
changing. you'd go into a um you'd get
changed there. You or you disrobe there.
Nowadays, you know, houses are warmer
and you get changed in the bathroom and
get your robes on and or and it's it's
all so much more state and and kinder
than it was. You know, when we work outside,
outside,
you know, you we didn't have plastic
bags in those days. We had brown
paperbacks. You'd get you'd take your
clothes off and you'd be freezing cold.
There's photographs in some of the
books. was in working on the moors in
Manchester and it's snow and then
afterward and there's one photograph and
we're all naked walking down towards the
circle site and we're all one side like
this walking along the side and we'd had
a circle previously before the
photographs had been taken and there'd
been a scourging a purification because
in those days we used to do a
purification at the beginning of the
ritual and um because it was so Oh, we'd
all got red bottoms on that side. Uh, so
I don't know how I got on to that. There
you go.
It It's changed dramatically. Now we've
got black plastic bags. So when we go
and work outside, our clothes are
contained within black plastic bags and
don't look like little heaps of brown
carrier bags everywhere. So everything
everything has changed. Everything's
become more sophisticated which enables
I enables us I think to work more
closely with our ritual. It enables us
to be more focused on our ritual. It's
not a desperate attempt to get into that
circle and start the work and get out of
it because it's cold. I mean I'm a great
believer in long johns when you're
working outside in the winter. Um, but
I'm also a great believer in working
naked outside in the winter that you can
do both and stay warm all the time.
Next question.
>> Well, lots suddenly.
>> Hello. I'd like to thank you for what
you've done in the past and bring the
craft to the modern world. Did you
always realize that the uh the visual
image of the craft, you and Alex would
be so influential upon the modern world?
But I mean it's so pre prevalent within
books and all this and it's like a
credit to you what you've done that
getting your kit off in front of
everyone and being out there and shown
the craft what it was that drew people
to what is a fantastic mystery religion
that you have brought to the modern world
world
>> along from Gerald. I think Alex knew um
I remember one circle in Planard
uh in the 60s and the couple of
gentlemen in the circle they started to
have a row in cakes and wine. I don't
know what the route was about and Alex
said we'll have no pistuffs in this
circle. He said um
it's uh in years to come you'll have
written books about it. And these were
just young men and years later of course
they they had written the books and um
he he knew he knew it was going to be
big. Yeah. And similar to Gerald he was
prone to exaggeration
and would say how thousands of witches.
There weren't thousands of witches at
all but that was his way of Alex.
Everything was bigger and he knew it
would grow.
I I I didn't care. My job wasn't to make
the craft grow. It still does isn't. I
wanted when after initiation, I think
most witches get the the desire to tell
the world because of that wonderful
feeling that you have. And of course,
you you can't you're not allowed to tell
anybody what's going on. Um or the
deeper side of the mysteries
because not for any reason other than to
keep it sacred. We keep we keep it
secret to keep it sacred. And I think
the older I get, the more I want to keep
>> Thank you. Okay. Uh, what qualities
would you look for in a sincere seeker
of initiation into our priesthoods? And
would you say that's changed at all?
Um I think the witches have changed. Uh
the people who become witches now more
people are initiated that to be honest
with you I wouldn't initiate. I don't
think they'd be um tough enough
uh daring enough curious enough to to
work those rituals. I still believe that
there is um intense ritual work within
the craft that's developed and evolved
over the years because we want it and
Alexandrians are notorious for wanting
power. They want to experience that
power. They want to use it and they want
to direct it and they want to get a
result from it. Um
I think we find I think
a few years ago um there were open
rituals and like in America they have
open rituals all the time and
it's a bit like ring the ring of roses.
Uh it's not to me what magic is the
magic of the craft. Um and that I hold
very dear.
Do I want it to spread? Don't I'm not I
don't care
and I don't think we should care. Some
people say, "Where do you think the
craft's going?"
And some Americans say, "Uh, what is it?
May the gods preserve the craft."
And I say, "May the craft preserve the gods."
Did I answer your question? >> Yeah.
Um in the previous talk um we could see
that Gerald Gardner was kind of
presented as um almost like a protoc countercultural
countercultural
figure uh in in the age before you know
the rock and roll thing developed.
And I guess you found yourself more in
the um epicenter
Can you describe what it felt like? Is
there a point where you're thinking this
is growing but maybe this is out of
control or or were you comfortable with
it or
>> I think when you cast your circle the
last thing in your mind is other
circles. You're totally focused on your
work. Um, and yes, Alex loved the
publicity and he'd be there, you know,
the cameras rolling, he'd come to life.
Uh, but that wasn't magic. That was charisma.
charisma. Uh,
and I loved the talk on Gerald Gardner.
In fact, I'm falling in love with Gerald
Gardner now. Um, but I think that
gardenarian Alexandrian witchcraft, I
don't know for sure because I've never
been in a garden.
Uh, but I think they're different. The
focus is different. As I say,
Alexandrians are greedy for power.
They're greedy for that energy. They're
greedy for the magic. But not all of
them. Alexandrianism is changing. The
craft will constantly evolve. its
rituals will evolve. People will find a
better way. They'll find a way of um
for instance in the temple of the
mother, we analyzed our rituals and we'd
keep the diaries for two years to make
sure that we kept the diary of our
experiments as to what helped make the
magic more potent or the power more
potent. the ways of directing that part,
the ways of getting those experiences
I think a circle is timeless.
I think the craft is timeless. And in
each one of our circles, we're not
connected to one another unless we're
going to do a ritual that several
covenants will take part in at the same
time like big healing rituals or um
vanishing rituals, vanishing of evil and
there is evil in the world and we should
be doing it more often. Um so
how did it feel?
It just felt actually really quite normal.
normal.
I don't think I think most of my life
even before I was involved with the
craft I was involved in spiritual
movements and um
that working towards the consciousness
of soul and spirit
uh has always been part of my life and
Um, Maxine, first first of all,
actually, I just want to say thank you.
Um, in large measure, actually, you are
the reason why I'm a Wiccan. Um, over 50
years ago, I stumbled across Han Solo's
book of witchcraft, and I was absolutely
fascinated to see that people could
celebrate spirituality in the way that
was depicted in that book. It had a
large impact on my life. Um my question
for you is obviously there's a
rebellious streak that runs through
witchcraft. So if we think of something
like the vangelo deist which of course
you know whether or not you believe it's
an actual artifact from the time or not
nonetheless a radia is uh rebellious
against the rich and entitled.
And it seems to me that wicker, of
course, is a nature-based religion and
that currently the rich and entitled are
rapidly destroying our ecosystems.
And some might argue the goddess Gia
herself. And I wondered if you would
comment on that and what advice you
might have for witches living in the
21st century around those kinds of
things in terms of practice and overall
philosophers as well.
Gosh, I don't think it's the rich that's
causing the problem totally. I think
we're all responsible for the things
that are going wrong with uh for Mother
Earth. Um
what's advice? I mean, I'm I'm an avid
recycler. I'm I do all the things that
I'm told to do and I would like to do
more, but I'm selfish enough would still
come by taxi and I'm selfish enough
still to drive to Wales. Um so there are
things are we prepared to give them up completely?
completely?
I think we each have to ask that
question of ourselves. I don't think
anybody else can judge another person.
We can try to persuade them to um value
mother earth. I remember again in the
70s the temple of the mother. We would
go and clear streams of rubbish,
practical craft.
Um we were great at it and really had a
great time, lots of fun. And but I think
that the craft has a conscience about
mother earth.
It is there. It's our energy. It's what
we do with our magic. We bring it. We
earth it. We change it. I don't think
working in the circle is going to change
it. I think it's practical humanity that
has to change it and changing our ways
and get our inventors inventing ways for
us to be able to live the life of luxury
that we're living now.
Perhaps we ought to be doing some magic
for the inventors.
>> Yes.
Um you've mentioned several time well or
I've interpreted um that Alex had a job
which sort of implies that you had a job
and I wonder within at that time
>> Alex had a what
>> you you you said that Alex that was
Alex's job right and so
>> chose it
>> well yeah but I wonder then that sort of
implies that you either chose not to
have a job or you had a job within that
space at that time with the the chaos of
film crews and and publicity and stuff.
>> Well, I I don't quite understand your
question then.
>> So, um, Alex had a job to bring the
craft through media to a wider audience.
What was your role? Your job, do you think?
think?
>> I was a number 10. I was a size 10 on
>> Good job.
>> Does that answer your question?
>> And and I think it was time. I think the
the craft is evolving. It's still evolving.
evolving.
You know, there are different people
coming up and they're putting different
things forward. I mean, there are a lot
of things I don't like about it. You
know, the latest book, you know, candle
magic, stroke your candle 10 times. God
knows. Um, and this they're selling this
rubbish and people are buying it. And so
there's a great big money-making thing
going on. Um,
it'll go. It'll pass and the craft will
survive. There will always be people
that are interested in the art magical.
The rituals have developed. You know,
gardener started something.
He was there at the right time. Alex
came along. He was there at the right
time and it's enabled. It was an
enabling. There were lots. If you think
about it, the craft is still very small
percentage wise. You know, the
population's gone up. The percentage of
people involved with magic is probably
the same as it was
200 years ago.
>> You're getting off very lightly.
>> No more questions.
>> I thought I was going to be asked some
awkward ones.
>> Here's one.
Uh uh me again. Um it's very easy to
look back at the time when this was all
emerging and you and Alex were working
together and separately and really
glamorize it. What um if you was there
any times when you just thought I'll s
this for a game of soldiers. It's all
getting a bit much.
>> Oh, I did regularly. I I remember one
day I was um get putting the my children
the afternoon nap and and settling and
Alex said, "Can you come in? Can you
just want to get a picture from the back
of you?" I said, "Yes, fine. I'll put
such and such around." "No, no, can you
pose naked?" "No, Alex, I bloody well
can't." And but he very persuasive. So,
I went in and and then somebody said at
one point it was the most photographed
bottom in Britain. Um, no, I didn't
enjoy it. I didn't enjoy it. Um, but
Alex did he he he just blossomed on it
and perhaps that's what was needed. I
didn't enjoy it. And if it had been left
to me, it's all right. You're all saying
thank you that I don't believe I did
anything. And because if it had been my
way, I co would have been secret. Nobody
would have known about it.
Nobody and I still think today I think
you asked um what are the things within
what do you look for in the person who's
seeking initiation
um when they ask for initiation the
first response is um
um
what have you got to offer the craft
and um what do you think the craft has
to offer you and more times than not you
find that they're not suited I believe
the majority the people who make the
real curious witch
and successful witch are few and far
between. I think there's a lot of
mediocre witches who love to be part of
a coven and love to go and they a bit
like women's knitting guilds.
Um, not meaning to be insulting and I'm
sure I can't knit
and I don't want to and I don't want to
belong to a coven that isn't really
working hard at the magic. You know,
covens meet so rarely nowadays. I mean,
our coven used to meet every night, you
know, throughout the week at the temple
of the mother. There'd be a night for
hermetics. There'd be a night for
healing. There'd be and people used to
queue up the basement steps and along
clamic car gardens people that were
coming for healing. And we we couldn't
do it unless we had um a medic, a gp
there because we always wanted
verification and we always wanted to
make sure that we weren't going to do
any harm because a healer can harm. But
we got fantastic results, really good.
And um but every night was taken up. The
only night that we had off was Sunday.
And then people start never stopped
knocking on the door and the phone never
stopped going. And there were people
that wanted to worship the goddess but
they didn't want to be initiated.
And so we devised a ritual so that the
general public could come and we had to
stop it because it got too big and we
couldn't we couldn't uh do it and we
weren't if we went to somewhere in a
public place it it would lose its
energy. It would lose its power.
Um, so that kind of work and energy that
goes into your magic practice takes a
great amount of curiosity and
self-discipline. And in the craft,
people have always said, "Oh, Maxine was
such a disciplinarian."
I wasn't, but I did demand
self-discipline and I didn't tolerate fools.
fools.
Um, just following on from that
question, I'd be curious to know what
you believe you bring to the craft which
is unique to you. >> Unique.
>> Unique.
>> What do you bring to the craft? >> Uh,
>> Uh,
>> other than a nice bottom.
>> Uh, yeah. Well, it used to be. It's
grown a bit saggy now. Um, I
I hope that I I teach well.
I I love teaching a good good group, a
curious group. Um, I can't be doing with
witches that don't can't be bothered to
know or want to know teaching.
teaching.
And also I love bit when the witch goes
that's it. I've got it. That's the magic.
magic.
I always thought that your quietness,
your closed mouth, your bearing was
imposing. And in all fairness to Alex, a
short bold bandandy man would never have
led any sort of movement. Nobody would
have followed him. But he was that
Prometheium figure that steals the fire
from heaven and was absolutely murial
and you know he he was trust completely
trustworthy on one level and completely
untrustworthy on another. But you gave
majesty to your nakedness. You embodied
the statess of a goddess. And given that
you no given no because you because
given that you temperamentally
did not want to be there in the n in
naked in the Sunday papers every time.
But I also think that the Alexandrians
it because they were in the papers every
week wearing nothing but their Egyptian
makeup. They put the word witchcraft
back on people's lips and they recreated
the movement and then Stuart came along.
Stuart Farah, you know, sent along as a
silly season journalist. I'll get an
article on them. But he knew the
questions to ask and he then wrote the
books and then it went on from there
because through you two witch witchcraft
in a modern form was able to be
solidified and it was able to be worked.
it was able to be used
>> and as with everything it's down to your
own integrity whether you do it well or
badly after that but as I say I think
you should be applauded because you you
still are not a showoff you you know
sorry it's not a question it's a comment
>> hello Darren Hello.
>> Is this going to be a good one?
>> Yeah, it's going to be a good I promise.
I promise it's a good one. Um Um genuine
question. Um what do you think the
future of the craft will be?
And secondary question, what would you
like it to be?
>> I can't answer either one of those
because what I like the second one. I I
what I like it to be is what I have and
experienced now.
Um I can't say what I think the craft
should be for you.
It's not my job to do that and it's not
I don't believe it's anybody's job to do
that. I think as the craft grows or as
initiations happen, new coffins happen,
old coffins stop working, die off, um it
changes. It changes the atmosphere
changes about it. I think if I hope for
anything is that the worship
worship
continues and the the magic comes
through for the I from the worship. What
I I don't like is empty ritual.
And I think there is an awful lot of
empty ritual now. And I but I think that
will stop because the witches will get
more demanding. And I think one of the
problems with Alexandrian witchcraft was
its growth
and the fact that it didn't have the
good teachers. You know the and the
thing when we were talking about this
the other day when people um go away to
start their own group the first thing
they say is we're going to pract we're
going to celebrate the salads on the day
we're going to work outside and we're
going to work naked.
It didn't take them long to get that up.
Yeah, that's three months in the but
working inside round about the nearest
Saturday etc etc. But the focus on the
magic and the sacredness of the magic I
think will it it will burn through as it
grows because witches will get more
demanding. They will be I don't want
this. I want I want to touch the magic.
I want to feel it in my solar plexus. I
want to feel it in my heart. I want to
know it in my head. And I want to get
the results. And I want to use the magic
to good things. Whether it's
contributing to mother earth
or making people just want to invent
things to make mother earth survive and
inner beauty so that we can experience
it. Um that's what I can say. Apart from
that, I don't it's not my job to care.
My job is in my circle.
>> Craft is what happens in circle.
>> Thank you. >> Pleasure.
>> Pleasure.
>> Hi Maxine.
You said you wanted an embarrassing
question. Oh no.
>> So uh I'll just put it back to you
really. What's the most embarrassing
thing that's happened to you either in
circle or in the craft or something like that?
that?
>> The ones that really embarrassing I'm
not going to I'm not prepared to tell you.
you. Um
Um
I I think
we were having a grand circle, you know,
very hyperluting and ritualistic. And I
was at the altar and I could feel the
power raising behind me. And um I
thought this is going too fast. It's
building up too quickly. And this is
years ago so not everybody will
remember. But I said and I was in this
beautiful beautiful robe and the high
priest was in his fine linen. And I said
uh came out of ritual tone and said you
Um, and
I don't think there's many embarrassing
things apart from the really awful ones.
Um, no, I think because
we're trained in being conscious of our
actions and how each action within our
rituals have to be focused
and trip up.
I've My hair's been on fire several times.
times.
Um, yeah, I can't think of anything.
Well, as I say, not things I'm prepared
Next question.
>> If I'm, if I may ask, in the early days
of the craft, or was there a uh, ever a
conscious desire to differentiate
between Alexandrian and Gardenarian
craft? And do you think now we have
drawn closer together than back in the
early days? I think in the early days was
was
every intention of coming away from it
from Gardenarian.
Um I I had no idea as I say still don't
no I I
people go from Alexandrian and there's
now this dual initiation business which
again I disapprove of totally. I think
it depreciates one
from the other. Um,
Um,
we stopped doing the purifications at
the beginning. We stopped the use of the
scourge to the extent that had always
been used. But so we've been or I'd been
told been used in gardenarian circles
purification. We put the responsibility
on the initiates that entered that
circle. So we changed a lot of things.
And then when Alex left to go to Beex
Hill, the Temple of the Mother really
focused on ritual, really focused on
what makes it work.
What is
stops it working.
It doesn't mean to say that every ritual
is going to be a good ritual because if
they were good all the time, they get
really boring. Um and so I think there
are a lot of differences also the
gardenarians tell me when they come to
work with us that um our rituals are
different. I think we focus as I say
more on the magic more on the power more
on the energy
and on on clear ritual. We don't I was
saying to somebody the other day, I
really dislike secondderee initiation.
It's a an reenactment
and it really bores me to tears to to
watch this ritual and I think this
should be on stage. If it was on stage
it would be great or if it was in a
ballet it would be beautiful. Um but
gardenarians doing it do it fantastic.
They have a house in Wales in the next
village to mine and um when they have a
second and third the whole house is
decorated and the descent to the goddess
is full enactment and and it's magnificent
magnificent
but I I'm looking for the power in it
not the power of the visual I'm looking
for the let me what can I do with this
magic what can I do with this power what
magic actually I've got it all planned
what magic I'm going to do but those
differences is I think
I think they're there in a big way.
I don't think one's better than the
other. I think one suits, as I said
right at the beginning, there's
witchcraft for everybody. Now,
it's just finding the coven that suits you.
you.
Hi Maxine. What would you say to those
people that are distracted from the work
by lots of um infighting and bickering? Oh,
Oh,
have I got opinions on that? Now
there's so much vicious viciousness in
the craft.
um judgmental
uh nastiness,
judgmental, thou shalt not. And they forget
forget
they're like
somebody picks on somebody that's been a
bad boy.
And somebody else has to join in saying
how bad they are instead of going to the
person and saying, "Are you bad?"
And that person will probably say,
"Well, I used to be, but I'm an initiate
now, so I'm really working on it." And
in the meantime, he's got to put up with
all this horrible stuff that goes on.
Some of these witches, you know, they're
just there to be judges because they've
no power in their own circle and they've
got nothing better to do. So, all the
bickering and backbiting should stop.
It's totally unnecessary and it's
nobody's business if somebody's being
bad. let them get on with it. And just
as this little side of thought, there's
a case going on now where the witch
world has gone a bit crazy. All for one
man who used to be a really bad bugger
who's become an initiate
and is really trying to be a good man.
He doesn't have to try. He's got a
really good heart. It's just he's
you can't help but be nasty if somebody
prods him incorrectly. So, it's very
vicious. But all that energy these
people are using to bicker and backbite.
What is the matter with them? I know
what it is. They haven't got enough
You'll think of them when you get home.
>> Or you'll all go up to Maxine after
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, we have one.
>> Speak up. I I'm interested in what you
said about secrecy and sacredness
and also about the idea of
serving nonpriest class uh people's
interested in in worshiping the gods,
the goddess and so forth.
Is there a responsibility on the witch
to provide space for those people? >> No.
>> No.
And there's a sort of follow-up to that then
then
how how could
>> I think because
uh I don't think we have a
responsibility to do it but I think because
because
we were in a position to do it at the
time and felt um
um
not a responsibility but we wanted to do
it. We wanted to we were asked so many
times how can I go about and rather than
say we'll go to you you know you know
you near a stream
um and worship there or wherever this
was a ritual that's devised for them to
be able to worship the goddess and we
enjoyed it
we enjoyed it very much but then it got
too big
and so no but we hope with the well I
think that with people appreciate
created it at the time. And at one time
um for just that. But then it wouldn't
have been witchcraft and we wouldn't
have been able to show them witchcraft because
because
um we wanted to we keep it secret. We
keep it secret to keep it sacred. Also,
if you didn't keep those inner rituals
secret, you'd get people dabbling with
them and they'd have nervous breakdowns.
And they do. You get people that are in
circles and
they're not strong enough
or they're too strong
and it can have a bad effect on them.
And that's one of the dangers of the
occult and working with the occult.
That's why you need good teachers. You
need good guides. You need to say we
don't do that because if you do that,
there's going to be a problem.
And that's why in Alexandrian craft uh
we develop techniques to safeguard. I
remember one witch uh his name was
Andrew and he was one of these brilliant
brilliant minds and in those days
working computers you used to walk
through them and um he was top job and
he'd been in a circle and some of the
work that we're doing was when Alex was there
there
and uh he went insane. He took an axe
and he smashed off a very important part
of the computer etc etc and uh was on a
28 day section and this got me wondering
how do I protect how do I develop a
technique to protect the person in
circle that may become disturbed by a
ritual or a meditation or something and
I worked on uh the golden cross of equilibrium
equilibrium
um that is a focus in the solar plexus
that you can bring into action at any
time just to maintain that balance. It
can be used for all sorts of things, but
this was one of the things that I developed
developed um
um
to make it safe.
And yet you'll always get some idiot
that will come along and say, "Well,
I'll do it just a little bit differently."
differently."
And they pay the price.
And there's a story of um before we
moved to to London and and a man called
Norman Lechwood had wanted initiation
and he asked Alex for initiation. He
said I want you to initiate me
and u I said all right and all of a
sudden I want to be dedicated to the god pan.
pan.
Anyway, Alex went ahead with this initiation
initiation
knowing something nagging in him really
uh he knew it was wrong
and a few days later we were walking in
Charleston Hardy in Manchester passing
Norman's house and there was an
ambulance outside a man in white coats
and we went in and there was Norman
naked with uh threat bits materializing
and walls bought sausages hitting him.
He was badly bruised but it had caused
panic and it had created this phenomena
and that was why Alex became absolutely
adamant that the craft initiation was
male to female female to male
and now you're getting male to male and
calling it witchcraft but it's their
witchcraft it's not mine and it wasn't
Alex's but you see this keeping things
secret and knowing what is bad practice
and what is good practice. You always
have to safeguard the idiot.
>> Did I answer your question?
>> Um, hi Maxine. First of all, thank you
for taking the time to answer all of our
questions and um I am curious on the um
uh that you you've also been involved in
Egyptian mysteries, Egyptian magic, if
it's okay to share um what drove you
there and anything important that you
would like to share with us that you got
It just happened. You know, it's like um
in I was very young. I was involved with Subud
Subud
with Pak Subu. I was uh the youngest
person in the Western world to be opened
in Subud. I think it said in there I was
15. I wasn't I was 14. um my Egyptian initiation.
initiation.
My mother was quite bizarre.
Um she was like a yacht in full sail and
she had very interesting people around
her. Um my father thought it was
uh he was a I didn't like him. He was a
bad man. Um but he was into health and
fitness and I had to become very fit to
go through the initiation I went through.
through.
And but it happened. It wasn't a I want
to be initiated into Egypt. I mean the
person that uh got me interested in some
of the practices
um yes I was interested but I wasn't
particularly wasn't something I wanted
to go through. And if I'd have known,
well, if my mother had known, which I
think she did, but she was bizarre as
well. Um, I wouldn't allow my children
to go through that.
So, uh, did I want to? Not. Did I go
through it? Yes. Did it do me any good?
Um I think the love of my life is the craft
craft
and and witchcraft. Um the occult, yes,
but uh it's practiced within a
>> mentioning your Egyptian stuff has
reminded me of Bernard B and Mary Rans
who's still going strong on two crutches
but she's still going strong and did you
have time to develop a sort of an inner
circle of
reliable people as it were or was it
just so fast flowing that people came
and went and you know you couldn't catch
up with could could hold on to them real way.
way.
>> I think the temple of the mother always
developed it in a circle. Um and it was
always about six or seven and they were
the core of it and they were the ones that
that um
um
investigated. They were the ones that
were prepared to okay we've consecrated
the water. What's the difference?
How do we find out what the difference
is? And so all the tests would be done
and you get the scientific minds coming
along and and doing their work. Um
it sounds terribly serious. Whereas
actually we had so much fun, so much laughter.
laughter.
Uh but it it was our lives. It was our
love. the, you know, the the couples
that had children,
uh, would be in the circle and my bed
was 7 foot wide and 7 foot long and we'd
put all the children to bed and think,
"Oh, they've gone to sleep now." And
then we go into the circle and if you
come out of the circle, they weren't
expecting it, they'd be working. They
knew all the invocations. They knew when
that bell went that they had to pretend
to be asleep. Um but those men and
women, those parents, we were prepared
um to put our children through that.
They didn't have a normal childhood. My
children, Maya said to me, she said um
we never knew what we were going to come
home from school to, whether it was
going to be a healing session, uh heavy
duty meditation, or Led Zeppelin, you
know. And and it was a strange
upbringing for all of those children. I
remember when Bitra and um one of
Wendy's children, they decided they
wanted a witch wedding
and one of the witches was a taxi driver
and drove them off. You know, they went
on their honeymoon. They're only about six.
six.
Um it it was a lot of fun. A lot of fun.
It was always laughter. And I know
Bernard Ball came to you with all the gossip.
gossip. Yeah.
Yeah.
you know, you'd be you'd be planning a big
big >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I think there were a lot of characters.
I think apart from us all being really good-looking,
um
there was an energy because they were
all sort all different and they came
from all walks of life. you didn't know
and somebody spoke about the world
wealthy people um Alex used to say we
work naked you don't know what class you
come from then you know there's there's
no judgment as to whether you're a
millionaire or a porpa but that soul and
heart sense had to be within and I think
that's one of the uh I think the temple
temple of the mother was a real
breakthrough cogn you know even know,
we'd be planning, you know, and we'd
say, including Bernard, you know, we'd
say, "Now, can we be quiet about this,
please?" And sure as extra eggs,
Geraldine would know. [Laughter]
[Laughter]
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but there were some
really, really good characters and
they're still going and they're still
doing good work. Not not in witchcraft
necessarily, but they've developed their
liking. You you get people that are um
you know become the hermetics, work with
hermetics, others with the angelic. And
sometimes the craft isn't it isn't for life.
life.
It is for me but it not for everybody.
Some people it's a stepping stone onto
onto their system of magic, what they
want to study. And that's fine. It
annoys me. We had um we had a case of a
man who was initiated into a a really
boring coven that stroke candles and
priestess's thighs and things and um he
wanted to leave this coven. He wanted to
uh join an Alexandrian group and he was
threatened with his measure.
You know, they'd kept his measure
whereas Alexandrians don't. they hand
the measure back and we say you know you
can come and go as your conscience dictates
dictates
and um anyway this man he was threatened
with his measure and he came over from
America and we said how do I deal with
this and I said well it's simple we just
take another measure and so he took
another measure and then he said I
handed it back to him and I said what do
you want to do you want to burn it you
know earn it on the pentacle and put it
on the planes. He said no. And of course
being in that flat he had big glass of
wine next to him and he just rolled his
measure up, popped it in his mouth and
drank wine.
Um, and I think that's one of the
things, you know, there's so many differences
differences
that within
the world of witchcraft and how you
practice it and you have to find the way
that works for you.
And may your covens be as interesting as
mine have been.
I say thank you for your questions.
Blessed be.
Lots of love. [Applause]
[Applause] [Music]
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