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Why We Need To Quit 'Fixing' The World: A Cybernetic Approach To Planetary Challenges

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Core Theme

The core theme is the necessity of shifting from a reductionist, mechanistic view of the world to an "ecology of mind" that recognizes the interconnectedness and relational nature of all things, using "warm data" to understand and navigate complex systems.

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If we don't practice perceiving and

responding to a world that's actually alive,

alive,

how will our responses

support and nourish the living world?

We're doing good cuz we are recycling

bottle caps. Like, oh, come on. In a

complex moving system, you cannot simply

replace the parts because the problem

isn't in the parts. It's in the

relationship between the parts.

>> Nora Bateson is a filmmaker, author, and

director of the Bateson Institute that

guards the legacy of her father, Gregory

Bateson. It was through his cybernetic

way of thinking that Bateson argued that

we have to think of reality not

quantitatively as one big spreadsheet of

inert matter. Instead, to truly

understand nature, we need a totally new

conception of information. what Nora

Bateson calls warm data.

>> We're used to thinking of information as

something you can grab, measure, state,

define, and what we're talking about

with warm data is something that's in

constant relational responsiveness.

If you're in this other way of thinking,

the reductionist way of thinking, the

possibility is edited out of the

perception. And I don't think we can

afford to do that right now. Yeah,

>> there are times when I catch myself

believing that there is such a thing as

something which is separate from

something else.

Complex systems thinking and cybernetics

eventually led Bateson to the logical

conclusion that we have to study nature

as an ecology of mind.

We usually think about minds as having

boundaries. So I'm sitting here with my mind,

mind,

>> you're sitting there with your mind.

You're saying we cannot basically draw

these boundaries so easily. Is that so?

>> That's so there's mind in a meadow.

There's mind in a forest. There's mind

in a culture. It's not just an inert

world we're walking around in.

>> So the thing that gives me hope is to go

to the place where it looks like there's

none and to see the creative process

>> Very warm welcome Nora in Leiden. Nice

to meet you here. Thank you.

>> Um, in thinking about this conversation,

you to me are a very special guest for

for a couple of reasons. You carry the

lineage of course of of your father's

thinking, Gregory Bateson.

Um it is good to mention I think for

people who do not know him I think most

people will have heard of him but he was

an important philosopher in the 20th

century anthropologist so social

scientist linguist cyberneticist

and he made contributions to many fields

um and you um now are president of the

basin institute and you build basically

on your father's work right with also

terms you

introduced and and scientific work

you're working on like warm data

sematasy things I'd love to touch upon

um your presentation today was on the

ecology of mind the essential foundation

is all about metaphysics and um

basically it maps oneonone on what our

foundation is about that all is mind all

is consciousness

>> and that ecology of mind then to me is

if that is so if that If we take that

metaphysic as the most plausible thing

then the ecology of mind of Gregory

Bateson and of Norah Bateson what you

are working on seems to me sort of like

the practice of how how to then go about

>> and that's what fascinates me. So in in

talking to you here

>> and uh in reading combining

>> um there are many ways in which we could

start this conversation maybe nice to

start with an image the image you

started your presentation with of two

moths with the eyes of an owl on their wings.

wings. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm.

>> We have it here in the book right I'll

show it on the screen.

Could you maybe touch upon what ecology

of mind is with that image in mind and

maybe refer to that image? Can we bring

those two together?

>> So yeah, first let's address the sort of

multiplicity of the the phrase ecology

of mind.

Um so on the one hand

uh what we're referring to is

the way in which

uh our minds okay our epistemological

ways of knowing our ways of perceiving

the world are

um forming and shifting and responding

to an ecology of different sorts of

experiences. Some are in your

microbiome, some are cultural, some are

historical, some are technological, some

are coming from the education system.

This question of how do you know what

you know? How do you perceive what you

perceive? And what are the many

combining ever combining

filtrations? and and and not just that

but also what's flavoring or um or

shaping those ways in which you and I

can perceive.

Uh and I think so that's one piece is is

to look at the way that our own perception

perception

is within an ecology

>> of perception and filters. Okay. Another

way of looking at that is to

uh look at the notion of mind. Okay,

which for my father was not about the

brain and your head. Okay, the notion of

mind is actually a notion of life. And

he's calling it mind because there is a

a a very um

a a push back against something

um being um of a mental abstraction and

something being of life. So the mind and

body for example being separated and the

sort of cartisian split. So to look then

at at mind as an ecological process. So

both of those things are happening. Um

so that there's mind in a meadow,

there's mind in a forest, there's mind

in a culture in so much as all of the

elements, the participants, the

organisms, the entities are responding,

communicating, learning. Um it's not

just an inert world we're walking around in.

in.

Life itself is responsive. So,

So,

>> and it's not your father and you you

don't are not talking metaphorically

here, right? It it's it's it's so that

because we usually think about minds as

having boundaries. So, I'm sitting here

with my mind,

>> you're sitting there with your mind

>> maybe and that would be already for a

lot of people pretty woo to say that

trees might have a form of cognition

perhaps consciousness. I know in bio

semiotics that's we're open to questions

like these but then these are still

there there are boundaries around these

minds but you were saying when I hear

you talk that we cannot basically draw

these boundaries so easily is that so

>> that's so

>> where's the edge of the tree right when

we say does the tree have a mind where's

the edge of the tree is it the bark is

it the root system is it the bacteria

and the the nutrition system that's

coming through the soil. Is it the way

the mycelial organisms underground are

transferring nourishment between the

trees? Is it the squirrels and the

insects? Is it the what?

When we say this is a tree,

how did that happen? How many hundreds

of thousands of years and how many

millions of organisms in relationship

have come to be

become that tree.

So you're not just looking at a tree.

And I think if you just take a snapshot

of a tree and you say this is called a tree,

tree,

what's obscured there is all of those

incredible interdependent processes that have

have

>> allowed that seed, that acorn, if it's

an oak tree, to become an oak tree.

But how did that happen?

And um it's really holding the

contextual and transcontextual

relationships and communication as part

of whatever it is we're calling an entity.

entity.

>> It it'd be better if we call it a a treeing.

treeing.

>> I was just thinking about that. That was

sort of what Alan Watts it came to to me

via Alan Watts that we should talk in

verbs, right? It's treeing and exactly

within sort of reductionism. So say we

we do not see the tree as treeing but we

see it as this is a tree which we can

reduce to to to on a cellular level to

biochemical processes which we can

predict and reduce that's a classical

materialistic way of thinking. Then

already in the 20th century in the sort

of mid 20th century we noticed that you

cannot look like systems. That's not a

way to predict the behavior of systems

or even to you cannot control them like

that. And the movement that studies that

sort of that that way of how you then

can can sort of understand systems

better their feedback loops and and and

how they behave. It's called the study

of cybernetics which influenced of

course computing and AI and your father

was a pioneer in that field. Could you

tell a little bit about sort of his

because he did not he had sort of a sort

of strange position among vonoman and

Weiner and then we had Gregory Bateson

and he had a sort of different take

right on the whole cybernetics.

>> Yeah. I mean to begin with I think the um

the thing about my father was that he

was doing

this cybernetic systemic work before the

Macy conferences happened. Mhm.

>> So if you look at his early work um

Novin and and some of the early papers

that he wrote before the Macy

conferences ever happened in the 50s,

there was a series of conferences in

which uh a group of people from lots of

different disciplines got together and

they were trying to have these

conversations that were funded by the

Macy's Foundation um to sort of figure

out how different aspects of a system

come together to do things. Okay? And if

it was possible to control them. Is it

what's the nature of this way in which

different aspects of a system

communicate with each other, shape each

other, shift each other? Because what

people were noticing was that when

you're working with any kind of systemic

thing, whether it's a culture or a

school or a family or um even a

computer, that very often if you make a

any sort of a a prompt, if you if you

think you're going to create a cause and

effect that's a linear cause and effect

and you push it here, that something

happens in some other way and the

results of that prompt come out in a

completely surprising and seemingly

uh non-correlative way.

And so many of the problems that are are

facing humanity especially today

uh are of existential level. And yet the

urgency to respond to these questions,

whether they're economic crisis or

climate crisis or um various kinds of

cultural or technological crisis that

are happening, political crisis,

uh is to try to address them

as though they were inside of a a pretty

basic car engine, right? where okay

here's the there's something wrong with

the timing we change the timing belt

there's something wrong with the

distribution of the we change the

distributor there's something wrong with

the this your transmission we change the

transmission in a living system in a in

a complex moving system you cannot

simply replace the parts because the

problem isn't in the parts it's in the

relationship between the parts

>> and those relationships are in motion

They're not static relationships.

So, how then do you have do you create

something that you might call an action

or a strategy?

Um, so this has been something that I

think uh the the Macy's group

found and found a new word for. Okay,

this is where the word cybernetics came

to be. Um and

uh and then cybernetics entered a lot of

different disciplines. So it entered

family therapy, it entered computer

science, it entered information theory,

it entered all sorts of technological

stuff, it entered in in many directions.

>> There was um well because it came from

many directions, right? If you have a a

transdisciplinary group and everybody in

the group takes it back to their

discipline, then it's going to enter the

world in multiple ways.

So the difference though is

that um first of all, like I said, my

dad was already doing that. It that it

there just wasn't a name for it yet. And

I think he really enjoyed the

collaboration of that group. M

>> um he used to say that it gave him hope

>> where he he felt no hope after the World

War I and World War II. I read in your

book how he sort of um

>> he had to sort of sabotage >> communication

>> communication

>> of the enemy, right? of the and and that

it sort of

really uh drove him to sort of sort of

made him made him really depressed

because it his work was all about sort

of the communication and sort of really

open communication that he had to do

this for the good and he so that I just

sort of found touching to read sort of

that it it was such a hard thing for for

him to do um but um

>> let's talk about that for a second

because I think it's a really good

example. So in Navvin

um which was my father's book about uh

his time in New Guinea, he brings in the

term schismogenesis.

>> Now schismogenesis

is a big fat juicy word but it's also

it's so important right now to be

thinking about this concept. So schismo

is to break to like a schism right and

genesis is to create.

>> So schismogenesis is the study it's it's

it's an understanding of a way of naming

particular kinds of relational patterns

that lead to the breaking of the relationship.

relationship.

>> Okay. So when we think about life

making life

>> Yeah. you what you're talking about is

all the organisms that make a tree have

been in relationship that made

relationship that made relationship that

right that's lifeing okay

>> uh and when you think about

schismogenesis it's relationship that

breaks relationship

>> so the he talked about three different

two two different types of

schismogenesis and then there's a third

one that a Finnish group brought in

um and in this moment I think this work

is critical because we're dealing with

so much polarization

uh alongside uh a general runaway.

runaway. Okay.

Okay.

>> Yeah. It's also good to unpack that term

by the way.

>> Yeah. A runaway where you get you know

something comes unraveled and it leads

to something else coming unraveled and

it leads to something else coming

unraveled and you get a runaway. So, you

know, when you get sick

and first you might uh feel like, oh, I

don't feel so good and then my throat

hurts a little bit and then a raging

fever comes. But then if you're not

careful, you could get dehydrated.

And if you get dehydrated, then your

body starts to go into a kind of a

runaway. Um, you're sick. You don't

really have what you take to fight back.

You can't hold food down, but you you

need the nutrients. Your organs start to

shut down. Things start to go wrong. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. That's an example of runaway in a

living system. The living system being

your body. Yeah. Now, if you can

extrapolate that into broader systems,

societies, cultures, jungles, right?

What happens when you enter a rodent

pesticide into a system and you think

you're just going to kill the mice, but

you don't just kill the mice because the

owls eat the mice and the vos get into

it and the caterpillars get into it and

the basically all the organisms

um in the ecosystem

start to get broken relationships. the

things that the that eat that eat the

owls, the things that ate the lizards,

the things that and so then they don't

have any food and eventually you get

into a runaway.

>> What fascinates me around runaway that

term thinking about it also in terms of

of cybernetics um if you have feedback I

mean feedback is a very important

concept in cyber system get feedback

loops etc. We know that term. And could

you say that a runaway is also sort of

an absence of certain feedbacks or or

are sort of not paying attention to

those feedbacks um of nature? I mean

because there there's not something

directly telling us when the moment we

do that sort of we think um in in sort

of after second world war when we

started sort of genetically engineering

and um coming up with pesticides that at

first seem to sort of solve sort of the

food crisis worldwide. So feedback says

good for the system and then it and but

then in the end we see how detrimental

it is to our planet. Is it so that there

were feedbacks we just didn't pay

attention to or how should we think

about that? I mean, I think this is the

whole issue is that essentially

if you've been trained to think in the

school systems as they exist right now

and you've lived in the world for a

while in the way that it is right now

and you're coming not from a culture uh

where the language is reiterating the

nature of the interdependency of life or

the spiritual um practices. is are about

the interdependency of life. But from a

culture where the economic system, the

the positioning of your identity, um,

etc. are are what's valuable,

then it becomes very difficult. It's as

though we have a an atrophied muscle of

perception where you can't see anymore

>> those relationships because you're not

living in them. You don't have words for

them. We don't have honor for them.

>> It's not part of our lives. So the the

last few hundred years of reductionist

science and of industrial modernity has

actually obscured

those interreational processes. So it's

not like there's some sort of mystery.

It's not like they don't exist. It's

just that um anybody who's been trained

to perceive the world and to communicate

in and to succeed in a world of of

these institutions

has been trained out of perceiving.

>> Train out of perceiving. I I think yeah

an example that that during your

presentation you you talked about how

that plays out in language for instance

you said we now say

I'm going to school to learn

um a language or I'm going to the to the

grocery store to get some yogurt and

that that that word to is very telling.

Could you sort of recount what you

explained because I find that sort of

very insightful. Yeah, it really

illustrates, doesn't it, this idea that

prior to the factory

>> um now the factory is a is a

reductionist assembly line,

>> right? Where everything's broken into parts,

parts,

>> Henry Ford, right?

>> Right. And it's broken into parts to produce

produce

>> and to create production of products,

right? So the factory is going to do

better if they can create more products. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Faster.

>> Faster. >> Fact.

>> Fact.

>> Okay. This is not how a meadow works.

This is definitively not how a meadow

works. So the the difference is an

ecological difference and it's a whole

world of perception. So prior to the factory,

factory,

people lived in a world in which

that like I was saying the relationships

are obscured now. They weren't obscured.

Um there were other things that were

obscuring them but not to the extent

that they are now. So so you had the

factory come in and then the school

system came in and it was actually they

were modeled after each other, right?

And people were going to school to

essentially become factory workers to

become able to produce things. >> So

>> So

people used to say,

"I'm going to market and

buying yogurt." They probably weren't

buying yogurt because you probably made that.

that. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> But and buying grain. And when you say

that, then there's a world of things

that can happen. I'm going to market.

And what will happen?

And I'm gonna get some grains. I wonder

what grains will be there. What will

happen there? That's a whole world of

things. And if you come back with no

grains, no big deal. There's a story. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. But if you go to market two,

buy grain and you come back with no

grain, you failed,

>> right? And then also if you go to market

two, the question is how long did it

take? How much did you get? Immediately

you get into all of the um

I hate this word but the value systems

>> of modernity

>> of optimization efficiency maximization

>> right profitization commercialization

I'm going to school and I'm learning to read

read

>> I'm going to school and that's an adventure

adventure

>> and I'm learning to read is different

than I'm going to school to learn to

read. And if you don't learn to read,

you failed. Which especially in that you

can feel the pain of the little child

>> who's wondering why he can't or she

can't they can't read, >> right?

>> right?

>> Yeah. That's that's touching. I'm a

parent. And the moment you say that

stuff like not to say this is a tree,

but to be more accurate, this is what we

call a tree or say it is treeing. I'm

I'm really trying to do that more with

my kids because I think I've already

>> even though I work for a foundation that

promotes analytic idism philosophically

like I'm also sort of just programmed

with language still full of sort of a

different that that that just echoes a

different metaphysics namely one of

reductionism and materialism and I I'm

and and your work makes that sort of

acutely aware in me so that that's that

and so I'm sitting down here with you

and we're doing an interview and that

already to me changes something. Um,

>> it's so creepy, isn't it?

>> How it gets into the intergenerational communication.

communication.

I mean, I know with my own kids

>> and growing up, you you said I'm holding

this lineage, which is a really

interesting thing to do, by the way. um

and to pass on,

right? What were the ways in which I

grew up in a household where there were

a different sort of collection of

intrinsic tacit assumptions

um about life

where the the tacit assumption was that

the world is already interconnected and

it's all in motion and it's this is a

system that cannot be controlled, right?

that systems are squishy and wiggly and

you can't control them. So, this was a

basis of our household and it wasn't

like people were running around all the

time saying those words, but that those

notions and those perceptions came

through everything. How we do breakfast,

how we take a walk, how you do anything.

So then when I had kids, I suddenly

realized because um their dad wasn't

really um he hadn't grown up in the same

kind of household. So he had a different

set of programming and boy is it ever

programming of like what you say to your kids.

kids.

>> Yeah. Um, and even I would find myself

even in these in these grammatical traps

where if you don't stop doing that and

then I would realize

I was I I was in a trap because the next

thing I'm going to have to say is then

if you don't stop then I will what what

am I going to do?

>> Right? I didn't mean that. What I meant

was, I really want you to stop doing

that and based on our relationship, I

want you to hear me. Not if you don't

stop doing that, you're going to be

grounded or I'm going to take away your

dessert tonight or you won't get any

this or you know the sort of punishment

and reward and the just all the

programming that we live within. And it

really comes out in the intergenerational

intergenerational

work um of just being a parent

>> and also of being someone's kid.

>> And I think was it sort of a safe

childhood for you in a sense because I

associate wrongly perhaps

>> that that you want to give as a parent

your children sort of clarity. This is

how the world works. And this is going

to touch on upon upon a poem in your

book which which really touched me

>> is so I'm already having difficulty

having left sort of a Christian

upbringing and that whole sort of system

of thinking that I cannot give my two

children that clear metaphysical

mythological stories that I was brought

up with that at that time felt like safe

to me or just nice to have these stories

and sometimes feels like I'm giving them

an unstory I'm I'm telling what it is

not or that I'm still myself in search.

I'm now coming to grips with that and I

see beauty in it.

>> But that to you you were your dad was

like when you writing your book it it

was like you didn't he didn't buy in

into any frames societal frame. So that

as a kid must have also been difficult

at times wasn't it?

>> Oh yeah for sure. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Um

>> and disappointing. I think it's more

disappointing. I think I was so sad

>> that when I went to school that I

couldn't actually have conversations

with my teachers

when they wanted me to write papers.

They wanted me to write papers about the

things that they already said. Why would

I write that paper? Why would I not

write a paper about something new I was

thinking about? I still don't really

understand why teachers want you to

write the paper that's already the stuff

that's already been said. >> Um

>> Um

so I was it felt really dead. It felt

like all the magic in the world was

drained out. Um where when I was home

I the world that was at home was a world of

uh of

really awe inspiring

um complexity and relational process and

it's fascinating I mean how did the fish

come to look like that what is the what

is the context in which the fish learned

to be like that or what's what's

happening with the weather tonight? And

I remember, you know, staying out all

night with my dad in the rainstorm and

talking about lightning and seasons and

um and life was just through his description.

description.

It came with the difficulties and the beauty

beauty >> of

>> of

what ecology really is.

and and the the deep communicational

relational interdependencies were right

there. Mhm.

>> So it was sort of you know it was sad

and then trying to you know do things go

to the doctor and the doctor is going to

identify a symptom and treat the symptom

but even as a small child I knew that

the symptom was just an expression of

something some other contextual

processes and there were probably

multiple causations not one and so what

a strange thing to take this pill for that

that

>> symptom. What else is it going to do?

>> Yeah, because your father was all about

connecting the patterns. What? Yeah.

Different beautiful ways of saying that,

right? But what what connects

everything? And also he he he

popularized a quote its you pronounced

that correctly that philosopher the map

is not the territory which is so close

of course also to sort of um idealism

that we confuse our models of the world

with the world. But you state in your

book and in your film about your father

also nothing was what it was right the

what we see the thing is not the thing

>> the thing is not the thing yeah the name

is not the thing named

uh so so it was disappointing as a child

to see that the rest of the world

>> wasn't really up but on the other side

we did a lot of traveling

and so that was a really incredible

opportunity to see that in other

cultures people

did things differently.

Um, and so for me, I think that was

probably the saving grace

>> is that it wasn't as though I was only

living in two worlds.

One in which there was interdependency

and one in which there was reductionism.

There were multiple versions and and

different cultures had different ways of

of talking about of perceiving of of of

dealing with the basics, you know, life,

money, love, death.

So these things are are not just

perceivable in one way.

>> And so learning that from an early age

was an incredible opportunity for me.

Could you explain a very important

notion a theory your father uh worked up

and worked on and what he's famous for

also uh which is called double bind.

What is it and how are we sort of

trapped in it? >> Mhm.

>> Mhm.

>> So the double bind okay not the double

blind okay so that's there's sometimes

some confusion there. Um, the double

bind theory

uh is a a theory that it was popularized

and and first written up by my father

and some colleagues at the Mental

Research Institute in PaloAlto. And it

was uh originally written up in

relationship to schizophrenia.

I'm I'm saying this because actually

that's not the origin of any of this,

but it it's what is the known origin.

Um and the double bind theory is

essentially this that through uh

through various contexts

um you can get stuck.

So the beginning piece is to recognize

that all living organisms are living in

multiple contexts simultaneously.

Okay? So you're in a context of

relationship with me right now, but you

also have a context of communication

with your microbiome in which very

different kind of communication is

taking place. Okay? You have a context

with your family and you have different

communication and relationships there

than you have with the tax man for

example or uh when you go to the

>> I don't know the the the driver's

>> department. Okay? Or when you when you

enter an airport or Right. So you have

the capacity to be in multiple contexts

simultaneously. You're alive in a your

body, but you're also alive in a culture.

culture. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. You are alive in a body and alive

in a culture, but you're also alive in

the in a biology, in the world of of

living organisms. So these different

contexts that we navigate seamlessly I

might add um through our day I mean if

you tell any story in your life any

story like how you came to choose the

shoes you're wearing today that story

will have in it multiple contexts of

life culture economics family health you

know ecology all sorts of things so we

live in multiple contexts as do all the organisms.

organisms.

They they don't have institutional

context but other ones.

These contexts can produce conflict.

conflict.

Okay? So you can get trapped in a way

that you want to fix something that's

happening with your body. Let's say that

you're feeling sick, but in order to

really tend to your body, you need to

take a break and stay home and rest, but

you can't stay home and rest because in

another context, you have to be part of

an economic system. So, you have to go

to work, right? So, if you don't heal

your body, you can't go to work. But if

you go if you do heal your body, you

could lose your work. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. you go to work,

>> you could really destroy your body and

make it so you can't go to work. Okay,

so that's an example of a double bind

where you have two contexts where when

you try to address one, you get a

failure in the other one. Um, you can

have a double bind in more than doubles,

too, by the way. But the the issue is

that in order to essentially find a

solution to one situation, you send

something else into existential crisis.

Um, so that's sort of how you describe a

double bind. You I could add that

another piece of this is that generally

speaking, you can't speak to it.

there's no department that you can

complain, right? Yeah, but but I you

know that's a piece of the puzzle that

>> there's been a lot of work on double

binds that's gotten into

metaccommunication that's really based

in human communication systems. And I

just have to say for the record the

double bind was never ever meant to be

according to my father um solely

a a theory for human communication. It

was meant to be an evolutionary.

>> I get it. I get it. Right. And so this

was a a shift because basically every

organism as it is learning to be in its

world, every organism that's in an

interdependent system, say you're a

mouse and you're living in a meadow, the

meadow is going to change. All the

organisms are changing.

>> The day is going to come when the mouse

is going to have to change. when all the

things the mouse used to do to survive

it can't do anymore

>> because it's its context has changed.

All right, but that's the only thing the

mouse knows to do.

>> And so the mouse can't do what it did or

it dies and it doesn't know what else to

do because it just doesn't know. Okay.

So it's that's a double bind too. And

one that touched me Norah was one in

your book you write it and maybe we can

if I may ask you to read the poem on on

motherhood in these days because you

write in your book >> um

>> um

let me uh look at I have to quote here um

on the one hand to survive we must feed

our children breakfast on the other to

feed our children it is necessary to

participate in inherently inherently

deadly systems. So I'm buying food which

is to keep my children alive. I am

killing I'm killing an ecosystem because

the fruit I want to feed my people of my

my my my my children uh have pesticides

on them. And I think in modernity in in

our modern society, we are trapped on a

daily basis. If if we would be it's just

incredible the amount of double binds

like these like >> right

>> right

>> sitting here doing this interview the

equipment I the stuff we buy to just be

able to do something good for the world.

I have to buy equipment that might ah

that that one was then I realized that

double bind concept it's like all around

us. We're so in it. We're so in it.

Yeah. And um Yeah. So, I wrote I think

you want me to read the poem?

>> Yeah, please do. Yeah. Well,

>> you know, I have kids

>> and um

and bringing children into the world is

a responsibility.

It's an honor. It's a it's a it's an act

of creativity. And

And

we need to be able to give our kids the possibility

possibility

of having kids.

I don't know about you, but my kids are

coming close to this age

>> of having kids, and they're looking

around saying, "I don't want to bring

any kids into this world." M um

is it is it possible to express

sort of existential pain around that? I

don't know.

And and how what what are my kids

looking forward to? What is what's

there? what's a horizon.

So, um I'm not alone. There's a there's

a whole lot of people out there whose

kids are in this. And and so I I wrote

this poem.

Um and it's in combining. It's called

Mama Now, but you could read it as Papa

now or auntie now.

>> I read I read as Papa now. Then I sent

it to my wife for Mama Now.

>> Uncle Now, auntie now, grandma now. Um,

Um,

I'll read it to you.

Mama now.

It's for my children. What it's like to

Your eyes will see the derailing of assumptions.

assumptions.

Your hands will hold the crumble of the

old matrix.

I do not have any authority to lean

into. I have empty pockets where parents

used to advise their children. I do not

have any maps, myths, or mother wisdom

for you. I can fix your breakfast, but

not the culture. And when you ask how to

be a good person,

I cannot lie to you.

Everything you touch in a day is in some

way bloodied.

You have been born into an edgeless violence.

violence.

But I will not judge or measure you

against a bygone metric. I'm here too,

ready to learn with you,

unsure how to be or who to be.

I can only read fragments of your worry

as the future is a horizon of confusion.

I cannot protect you and yet it is my

only job.

Aching as I witnessed from this side of

the hourglass other generations of

parents knew the outlines.

school, career,

family and retirement.

But your life will be another shape entirely

entirely

forming in the fractures.

And when you say you need a goal,

I offer you an expired ticket.

Superficial memes roll off the tongue

right into your detector.

Success in the existing system is not

going to do you much good.

Your integrity

is your rage

and I will nourish it.

Your dignity is your curiosity

and I am tiny beside it.

Your courage is your pain and I will

sing to it with you.

We will riot together.

We will notice the nuance of small

graces in the day. We will wash the grit

of loss for each other.

I am your mama

and your future is the story of a storm.

I am your cabin, your boots, your rrook sack.

Yeah, it's it's just beautiful. And um

where to start? I I read this. So, like

I said, I sent it to my wife and I say,

"Yeah, this is about it." And in a sense,

sense,

that's also painful to say that there's

nothing new that what you you just you

it's just the finger of the Zeta PL the

finger on the sore point. this is what I

I sort of know. But then you make it

explicit in this beautiful poem.

>> And but it's also liberating to just be

honest about it.

>> Do you understand what I'm saying? To be

honest, I don't know what we're in. I do

not have an answer. And this system is

>> don't want to use curse words. It's just

messed up. And we have to find a way.

And what I loved in reading your book

and maybe this will bring us to warm

data. The cold approach to this would be

to redirectionistically

materialistically think okay pol crisis

let's map the poli crisis let's see

where we can fix it what interventions

we can come come up with you you showed

the sustainable development goals of the

UN all those logos and stands health the

good gender equality and systems

thinking and and

we know that that is the way of thinking

that got us here so you say stuff in

your book that today's solutions are yet

or today's um yesterday's solutions are

today's problems. We know that if we go

about it like that, we'll just create

new problems.

>> But you have a hopeful answer. Something

I think is hopeful is when you say that

we have to meet this and not match it. Mhm.

Mhm.

>> Could you sort of explain on on how to

meet what you just told this story of

motherhood, how to meet that

>> and not to match it and and what you

mean of course by meeting and matching? >> Mhm.

>> Mhm.

Yep. Okay. Meet not match.

Uh this was a big opening for me I think

in my own work of what uh what does a

systemic response look like?

How do we

think about

making an action

um when we're trying to deal with a symptom?

symptom?

But that's not a direct response because

if you make a direct response, then

you're just treating the symptom.

So what is that response that looks indirect

indirect

that doesn't exactly fix exactly what

you wanted to you know lay out as the

the the issues but addresses

the underlying conditions or the shifts

the whole system in a way that it can learn

learn

to be in the world in another way. So to

match a problem

So in the Mama Now poem, for example,

how do you be a good person? Well,

you're in a world full of things where

you get on the bus and that's the bus is

made of plastics and metals that have

been mined and it's running on petroleum

or it's running on electric, but the

electric is produced in ways that no

matter what you do, no matter what you

had for breakfast, no matter what

clothes you're wearing or who sewed them

or who made them, you're you're we're

drenched in the blood of

>> of the last

>> uh few hundred years of

reductionism and and uh exploitation. So,

So,

you could look at that and you could

say, "Okay, well, let's fix it. Okay,

we're going to make fair trade

everything. We're going to, you know,

get off- grid. We're going to live in

this other way."

And that would be matching.

Okay? Because to match the problem is

the same thinking that got us into it,

right? And to meet the problem

looks very different. To meet the

problem looks like

helping your kids come into the world

knowing what the situation is and how to

nourish the people that they are around

in every circumstance. How to nourish

themselves. how to be able to undermine

the very isolationist, individualistic, exploitative

exploitative

concepts that have been driving

these institutional systems. So the poem

ends for example with this phrase,

I am your cabin, your boots, your rucks sack.

sack.

>> Yeah, rucks. I like that. And it's this

is how do you deal with a double bind?

Okay. So if you want to deal with a

double bind, if you want to have some

sort of success of getting out of a

double bind,

the way you do it is not to fix the

problem. The way you do it is to reach

from another context.

>> Okay? So if you if the the contexts here

are the exploitation of the world and

the need to bring up your children and

if if you bring them up in a way that

they're numb to the exploitation of the

world so they're happy about being in it

then you have the problem of the that

they're numb to the exploitation of the

world. You don't want that. >> No.

>> No.

>> Um so but if you bring them up so that

they're sensitive to the exploitation in

the world, they're going to be in great pain

pain

>> for everything that they have to partake

in. And you don't want that. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> So, how do we meet this not match it?

So, what I'm doing even in the poem is

to reached from another context, right?

I am your cabin, your boots, your rook sack,

sack,

which is,

you know, I'm an 80s kid, right? So, I

have a punk rock background. And that's

probably one of the most punk rock

things that I could say

>> because as you know

growing up in any kind of you know

society in the world in which these

We have been taught not to be our

children's cabins.

We have been taught not to be their

rrook sack, not to be their boots. If

you want to have a successful individualistic

individualistic

adult, you've got to cut them free.

You've got to make them feel the pain so

they go out in the world and they have

So that line, >> yeah,

>> yeah,

>> I'll be your cabin,

your boots, your rrook sack. I'm going

to be here. You can take shelter.

I I'll be your boots. You can walk on me.

me.

>> Right. I'll be your rook sack. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> I'll carry for you. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> I'll be your cabin. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And that's not the way we are taught to parent.

parent.

And it's like this incredible radical

question like what would you how would

you raise your children differently

That's

>> all the difference in communication like

what just doing the dishes, making your

bed, learning to do your laundry,

participating in the family chores, right?

right? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Right now, there's an implicit

>> Mhm. messaging that says you need to

learn to do these things because one day

you're going to have your own house and

you have to know how to do them when

you're an individuated >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> person.

>> person. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And so

the cost

is very likely the relationship.

I mean, how many times do I have to ask

you to do these dishes? This is the

fourth day in a row you haven't done

these dishes. You need to learn how to

keep your room clean. What kind of a

person leaves their room like this?

Seriously, this is disgusting. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. When was the last time you did

your laundry?

>> Okay. Now, if you knew that your child

wasn't going to leave home, which in

most parts of the world, they actually don't.

don't.

>> What would that look like? How would the

the discussion be different?

>> And it it might look like, hey,

I'm super tired.

>> Is not working for me. Yeah.

>> Can you do the dishes today

instead of you have to learn how to do,

you Yeah. Yeah. And there's there speaks

fear behind it. It's it you need to be

neat because otherwise things won't be

okay. It's it's

>> as opposed to this is how you nourish

the relationships. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Of the house you live within. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

So, you know, you can give your kids a

chore wheel and they can you can say

they got to do it on you got to mow the

lawn on Wednesday and do the dishes on

Thursday and

>> clean up the dog mess on Friday. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> But pretty soon they learn to look at

the chart and they are sick that night

or they have a friend over or they find

a way to wiggle out of it. Yeah. Because

what you've taught them to do is to look

at the chart, not look at the room,

right? And if you look at the room, you

look at the relationships at the table

and you know, I did the dishes last

night, but look, that person's not

feeling well, and this person's been on

their feet all day, and

>> well, actually, I'm I'm not doing

anything. I'll do the dishes. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. which is in response to the relationships

relationships

which is that's the thing you know when

we were talking earlier we this we've obscured

obscured

this relational perception muscle

it's it's atrophied because we look to

the chart and not to the table

>> right to meet not to match

>> and the cost is so high that I can't

even tell you how many families I know

that have really sad relationships with

their kids because in order to get them

to pass math,

they humiliated their kids

>> because that's what we were taught to do.

do.

and and that the cost of creating an

individualized being that would succeed

in an individualistic society

is relationships to the past and the future.

future.

How are we going to do ecology when this

is what we're doing at home?

>> And this this is what you call like I

guess warm data, right? This is the data

we need to work with the the the the

data that touches upon the fact that

everything has to do with transconext

textuality. It's multiple contexts we're

operating in. We're in constant

relationships that we cannot even

describe. I mean the second 5 minutes

down this conversation will be a

different conversation will be

different. And and with that warm data,

we have to work to fix the problems we

are in at the world. Is that a way to

put it? And and whereas cold data would

be measure everything and sort of put it

in in in our our smartest AIs that will

fix our problems for us.

>> Mhm. If we just have a big enough

spreadsheet, we can put all of the

contexts in there and then we can figure

out how to control them.

>> Yeah. No, I mean that's just not how

life works. >> So

>> So

I guess you know the thing with warm

data some people feel feel like warm

data is like the the soft stuff, the

woo, the kind of touchyfey, the

emotional aspects.

No, no, no, no, no, no. It's much more

rigorous than that. It's it's what is

happening in the combining of information.

information.

Okay? So, you know, you could pipe in,

let's say you have a kid that's struggling,

struggling,

>> all right? Uh, and they're in whatever,

fifth grade or something. All right? So,

you could pipe in information about that

kid's family,

>> about their economics. You could pipe in

something from the doctors. You could

pipe in their education

>> information. You could pipe in any kind

of legal questions that are going on

with them. You could pipe in historical

questions, their technological

time online, all these streams of

information you could get. Okay? But

that doesn't really tell you anything

about the ch child

because what we're looking for is the

way that all of these different contexts

are combining.

How does the technological the screen

time come into relationship with the

family history? You know, when you say

to your kid, "When I was a kid, we

played till after dark outside." And and

what you're saying isn't really about

technology. It's about history. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. How does the child, you know,

what's happening in education conflict

with family? Well, you're getting an

education that's nothing like the one I

had, just as an example. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. or culture.

>> Yeah. or um I mean what happened with

the pandemic is a fantastic example of

all of us had to go to these schools all

the time and every semester counted and

duh these kids they had a pandemic and

suddenly it was like well you can't go

to school and now there's a lot of

people having trouble figuring out how

to talk the kids into believing that

they have to go to school

>> or people that have to go get back to offices

offices

>> the the broken one big global sort of

example of cold cold data treatment of

the pandemic which sort of made us sort

of aware that that that just doesn't

work anymore. And another example that

just brings to mind is the fact that

when a company now would ask me uh if I'm happy about their service. Sometimes

I'm happy about their service. Sometimes I'm happy about the service. I just had

I'm happy about the service. I just had an agent on the phone. We call it

an agent on the phone. We call it agents, people who help me, right?

agents, people who help me, right? That's already weird. And I'm happy

That's already weird. And I'm happy about the service. And may I ask you to

about the service. And may I ask you to rank this service on a score from

rank this service on a score from >> 0 to 10?

>> 0 to 10? >> Then I say you just asking this just

>> Then I say you just asking this just reduce that number because I'm now now I

reduce that number because I'm now now I feel like I'm in transaction and and you

feel like I'm in transaction and and you you did this for this score

you did this for this score >> and that's how messed up we are. We

>> and that's how messed up we are. We don't even see that this cold data

don't even see that this cold data approach on a warm data level is messing

approach on a warm data level is messing things up,

things up, >> right? And um from a more scientific

>> right? And um from a more scientific physics perspective, I'd say this is

physics perspective, I'd say this is metaphorically speaking of course is

metaphorically speaking of course is that the measurement of course the act

that the measurement of course the act of measurement influences the

of measurement influences the measurement, right? Or is it observer

measurement, right? Or is it observer observer effect and we still think that

observer effect and we still think that we can go about and measure

we can go about and measure >> and it's going to be objective.

>> and it's going to be objective. >> Exactly.

>> Exactly. >> Fantastic. It's fantastic.

>> Fantastic. It's fantastic. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> So so yeah. So the warm data is all

>> So so yeah. So the warm data is all these things that are combining.

these things that are combining. >> Yeah. And and that's why it's tricky

>> Yeah. And and that's why it's tricky because we are not used to thinking of

because we are not used to thinking of information like that. We're used to

information like that. We're used to thinking of information as something you

thinking of information as something you can grab,

can grab, plop down, measure, state, define,

plop down, measure, state, define, research. And what we're talking about

research. And what we're talking about with warm data is something that's in

with warm data is something that's in constant relational responsiveness.

constant relational responsiveness. And so I I sometimes describe it as

And so I I sometimes describe it as another species of information.

another species of information. >> Just don't even think about it in the

>> Just don't even think about it in the same way because

>> if we don't practice perceiving and responding to a world that's actually

responding to a world that's actually alive,

alive, how will our responses

how will our responses support and nourish the living world?

support and nourish the living world? >> Yeah. And you do this work with warm

>> Yeah. And you do this work with warm data in warm data labs, right? I'm just

data in warm data labs, right? I'm just super curious how that works in a lab.

super curious how that works in a lab. So you experiment with this or you let

So you experiment with this or you let make people aware of what warm data is

make people aware of what warm data is and let them sort of work on problems

and let them sort of work on problems with this warm data concept. To give an

with this warm data concept. To give an example, what does it look like to start

example, what does it look like to start working with warm data?

working with warm data? >> So first of all,

>> So first of all, it's

it's it's holding at two different levels at

it's holding at two different levels at least. Okay. So, uh, from the outside

least. Okay. So, uh, from the outside looking in, what you might see is that

looking in, what you might see is that there's a group of people and they're

there's a group of people and they're they're in little groups of three or

they're in little groups of three or four and, um, they've been given a

four and, um, they've been given a question. So, let's say the question is

question. So, let's say the question is something it's going to be something

something it's going to be something that's going to hold a lot of complexity

that's going to hold a lot of complexity like what is home in a changing world?

like what is home in a changing world? What is home? Yeah.

What is home? Yeah. >> Okay. So, just think about that for a

>> Okay. So, just think about that for a second. All right. And then each little

second. All right. And then each little group is going to have a context. So

group is going to have a context. So economy, family, history, culture,

economy, family, history, culture, technology, politics, law,

technology, politics, law, identity.

identity. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Okay. And then the people move around

>> Okay. And then the people move around like however whenever they want to move

like however whenever they want to move around and they just sit there. They

around and they just sit there. They talk to whoever they're talking to. I

talk to whoever they're talking to. I try to encourage people just to if

try to encourage people just to if stories come up to tell a story because

stories come up to tell a story because when like I said earlier whenever you're

when like I said earlier whenever you're telling a story you are actually

telling a story you are actually speaking completely transcontextually

speaking completely transcontextually >> and when you tell a story something

>> and when you tell a story something really interesting happens and that is

really interesting happens and that is that the person you're speaking with or

that the person you're speaking with or the people

the people remember their stories right your story

remember their stories right your story reminds me of a story

reminds me of a story >> and then before I even speak that story,

>> and then before I even speak that story, I'm reminded of another story. So all

I'm reminded of another story. So all these stories are sort of and

these stories are sort of and impressions from our stories and other

impressions from our stories and other people's stories are lighting up. Okay?

people's stories are lighting up. Okay? And then when you move, let's say you

And then when you move, let's say you start an economy and you go to family

start an economy and you go to family and then you go to technology and then

and then you go to technology and then you go to culture, each time you go,

you go to culture, each time you go, more stories are crossing across more

more stories are crossing across more contexts.

contexts. And so most of what happens in a warm

And so most of what happens in a warm data lab you would never find on the

data lab you would never find on the transcript. These are not conventional

transcript. These are not conventional productive conversations in the sense

productive conversations in the sense that you would come out with a flip

that you would come out with a flip chart and you know a bullet

chart and you know a bullet >> of goals. Yeah.

>> of goals. Yeah. >> Um I'm not interested at all actually in

>> Um I'm not interested at all actually in what anybody says

what anybody says >> in the conversation. You cannot be the

>> in the conversation. You cannot be the clever one in a warm day. Nobody cares.

clever one in a warm day. Nobody cares. What's interesting is what stories your

What's interesting is what stories your story reminded me about

story reminded me about and and how those stories come up

and and how those stories come up quickly in the course of an hour and

quickly in the course of an hour and they start to overlap and sort of do a

they start to overlap and sort of do a mo phenomenon, a living mo phenomenon

mo phenomenon, a living mo phenomenon with other stories so that I'm actually

with other stories so that I'm actually able to perceive my own memories

able to perceive my own memories >> in a new way

>> in a new way without being explicit. said about it.

without being explicit. said about it. People don't I never know when I attend

People don't I never know when I attend a warm table. I never know what's going

a warm table. I never know what's going to come up for me or what was bothering

to come up for me or what was bothering me or what was ready to move,

me or what was ready to move, you know, but old things shift. Oh my

you know, but old things shift. Oh my god, I perceived that, you know, my

god, I perceived that, you know, my brother didn't like me for so many years

brother didn't like me for so many years and oh my god, now I'm seeing that

and oh my god, now I'm seeing that actually there was this other context.

actually there was this other context. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Right. Or things like that.

>> Right. Or things like that. Weird things happen. People quit

Weird things happen. People quit smoking. They suddenly make friends with

smoking. They suddenly make friends with someone. They

someone. They >> It's fascinating.

>> It's fascinating. >> Yeah, it's fascinating.

>> Yeah, it's fascinating. >> But I never know what's going to happen.

>> But I never know what's going to happen. What I do know

What I do know is that there is a necessity

is that there is a necessity to address the deep undercurrents

to address the deep undercurrents that are actually knitting together our

that are actually knitting together our habits of perception

habits of perception to get them moving.

to get them moving. How they move, where they move, I don't

How they move, where they move, I don't know. But the warm data lab will get

know. But the warm data lab will get them moving.

them moving. >> And once I can perceive

>> And once I can perceive my own life in multiple contexts, my own

my own life in multiple contexts, my own memories in that complexity, I can start

memories in that complexity, I can start to perceive yours.

to perceive yours. So one of the things that happens with

So one of the things that happens with this is first of all that double binds

this is first of all that double binds get loosened because there's so many

get loosened because there's so many other contacts coming in. So it it's a

other contacts coming in. So it it's a way of loosening those double binds.

way of loosening those double binds. Secondly,

Secondly, um

um in a world of polarity and polarized

in a world of polarity and polarized positionings,

positionings, there's there's really no way to hold

there's there's really no way to hold polarization in a warm data lab.

polarization in a warm data lab. So it's very healing for people who have

So it's very healing for people who have been polarized who might otherwise be

been polarized who might otherwise be there to help each other.

there to help each other. Um so it's great for communities that

Um so it's great for communities that are dealing I mean which community in

are dealing I mean which community in the world is not dealing with

the world is not dealing with polarization right now.

polarization right now. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Um

>> Um uh also there's a kind of ecological

uh also there's a kind of ecological experience of mutual learning

experience of mutual learning that all the people in the lab are

that all the people in the lab are learning together. They're not learning

learning together. They're not learning the same thing but they're learning

the same thing but they're learning together. No one's had the same

together. No one's had the same experience because they've all moved

experience because they've all moved through different conversations,

through different conversations, but they've all

but they've all experienced something having to do with

experienced something having to do with the way

the way that it's possible to perceive

that it's possible to perceive multiple contextual processes

multiple contextual processes simultaneously. If I started off by

simultaneously. If I started off by saying, "Okay, now everybody, we're

saying, "Okay, now everybody, we're going to look at things through five

going to look at things through five different contexts

different contexts >> or eight different contexts,"

>> or eight different contexts," >> people would look at me and they'd be

>> people would look at me and they'd be like, "This is so abstract."

like, "This is so abstract." But once you start seeing your own

But once you start seeing your own personal stories in those multiple

personal stories in those multiple contexts, it's not abstract at all. It's

contexts, it's not abstract at all. It's the most practical thing in the world.

the most practical thing in the world. >> And people get out of these labs or

>> And people get out of these labs or transformed in a sense or or or in their

transformed in a sense or or or in their life later on perhaps transformation

life later on perhaps transformation might might happen. something can

might might happen. something can happen. And you know, one of the things

happen. And you know, one of the things I see happening is that there's a lot

I see happening is that there's a lot more integrity.

more integrity. >> A lot more integrity and generosity.

>> A lot more integrity and generosity. >> So those two things

>> So those two things we could use a lot more of.

we could use a lot more of. >> Oh, we definitely could. Do you have a a

>> Oh, we definitely could. Do you have a a a sort of an idea about the mechanism at

a sort of an idea about the mechanism at play here? I I mean sort of

play here? I I mean sort of from sort of analytic idalism you'd say

from sort of analytic idalism you'd say that sort of

that sort of mind is one in the end or sort of the

mind is one in the end or sort of the end ontology would be a universal mind

end ontology would be a universal mind and we are dissociated from it sort of

and we are dissociated from it sort of >> blobs of mind and there's a mind of life

>> blobs of mind and there's a mind of life but it's like this you know it can flow

but it's like this you know it can flow and

and >> then of course speculation starts would

>> then of course speculation starts would death be that my blob of mind opens up

death be that my blob of mind opens up to the larger I return to the ocean of

to the larger I return to the ocean of of primordial awareness all sorts. But

of primordial awareness all sorts. But hearing you talk about this this warm

hearing you talk about this this warm data lab, it does seem to play into that

data lab, it does seem to play into that analytically that something's happening

analytically that something's happening there on that mind level. Um I've also

there on that mind level. Um I've also interviewed people on sort of

interviewed people on sort of psychedelic sciences. It's the

psychedelic sciences. It's the philosophy around that is it sort of

philosophy around that is it sort of boundary dissolution what Terrence

boundary dissolution what Terrence McKenna used to call it. What what sort

McKenna used to call it. What what sort of the psychedelics can do for you?

of the psychedelics can do for you? meditation can do it also different s

meditation can do it also different s what are your thoughts on this sort of

what are your thoughts on this sort of mechanism at play here mechanism is not

mechanism at play here mechanism is not a nice word for it but

a nice word for it but >> I think for me it comes down to sort of

>> I think for me it comes down to sort of a lifelong project of how do you get

a lifelong project of how do you get people to understand complexity

people to understand complexity right and teaching systems theory and

right and teaching systems theory and complexity theory and it was always the

complexity theory and it was always the system was over there and here's the

system was over there and here's the model and this is like this and this is

model and this is like this and this is like this

like this and the people who somehow already knew

and the people who somehow already knew the vocabulary leave the room feeling

the vocabulary leave the room feeling extra clever and the people who didn't

extra clever and the people who didn't still don't. And this sort of failure of

still don't. And this sort of failure of transmission or

transmission or shared ongoing exploration of the

shared ongoing exploration of the question of like what's happening in a

question of like what's happening in a complex system because you are a complex

complex system because you are a complex system and I am and we're in them and

system and I am and we're in them and how do we actually

how do we actually um experience that when the filters

um experience that when the filters through which we see life have cut all

through which we see life have cut all of those receptors off.

of those receptors off. This is an educational experience. This

This is an educational experience. This is an economic experience. This is a

is an economic experience. This is a >> this is a love experience. And all of

>> this is a love experience. And all of course all of them are all of it.

course all of them are all of it. But that practice of perceiving

But that practice of perceiving these complex systems and multiple

these complex systems and multiple contexts at play

contexts at play um

um has been very very difficult

has been very very difficult to reintroduce

to reintroduce into

into groups of people from cultures that are

groups of people from cultures that are living in a fragmented world. I mean if

living in a fragmented world. I mean if you look to Ubuntu, you look to the

you look to Ubuntu, you look to the medicine wheel, you look to the vades,

medicine wheel, you look to the vades, you're going to see the same material.

But for most people, not all, but for most people, they're so many generations

most people, they're so many generations into this fragmentation and the

into this fragmentation and the brokenness that's come from the

brokenness that's come from the fragmentation, the second, third order

fragmentation, the second, third order issues of fragmentation.

issues of fragmentation. You can't just then say, "Hey, it's all

You can't just then say, "Hey, it's all one man,"

one man," >> you know, because it isn't. I got you.

>> you know, because it isn't. I got you. >> It isn't all one man.

>> It isn't all one man. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And so

>> And so >> you have this sort of healthy anti- No,

>> you have this sort of healthy anti- No, it's not anti but you're right. Sort of

it's not anti but you're right. Sort of being brought up in a new age sort of

being brought up in a new age sort of world, right? You have sort of a healthy

world, right? You have sort of a healthy dose of allergy. Is that a word to put

dose of allergy. Is that a word to put it for it? Yeah. But I like it because I

it for it? Yeah. But I like it because I think it's so relevant in in the today

think it's so relevant in in the today because what I see right now and I I I

because what I see right now and I I I hear you saying that because that's not

hear you saying that because that's not how I intended my question uh sort of on

how I intended my question uh sort of on in search of like a one mind etc. But I

in search of like a one mind etc. But I because what I take very seriously is

because what I take very seriously is the risk of

the risk of >> what is called sort of spiritual

>> what is called sort of spiritual bypassing. to the fact that I can tell

bypassing. to the fact that I can tell these stories that just make me feel

these stories that just make me feel nice and with my philosophy of idealism,

nice and with my philosophy of idealism, >> whereas I have to

>> whereas I have to >> do the hard work of really meeting what

>> do the hard work of really meeting what it what it means to to to to be in this

it what it means to to to to be in this what your poem is about. So I really

what your poem is about. So I really feel that one. But on the other hand, I

feel that one. But on the other hand, I also think we do need it. I do need that

also think we do need it. I do need that deeper story of a fundamental truth that

deeper story of a fundamental truth that just resonates more deeply within me

just resonates more deeply within me than the old story that I'm just a bunch

than the old story that I'm just a bunch of molecules that happen to be conscious

of molecules that happen to be conscious in a universe that doesn't care and I do

in a universe that doesn't care and I do need that deeper story and I'm truly

need that deeper story and I'm truly sometimes uh I'm I'm aware I might be

sometimes uh I'm I'm aware I might be bypassing I might be using it for

bypassing I might be using it for placebo reason. What are your thoughts

placebo reason. What are your thoughts here? I mean hearing me

here? I mean hearing me I mean, for me, it it's always been like

I mean, for me, it it's always been like I was saying earlier, just the

life is sacred. >> You're part of life. That's a sacred

>> You're part of life. That's a sacred act. That means every moment

act. That means every moment is

is in communication

and relationship with so much

so much that is also sacred.

that is also sacred. How can I best show up for that?

How can I best show up for that? How can I best be sensitized toward

How can I best be sensitized toward that? Um,

that? Um, so that's where I don't feel lost

so that's where I don't feel lost without the oneness.

without the oneness. Um, I'm really excited.

Um, I'm really excited. It's, you know, I'm not saying that

It's, you know, I'm not saying that there's not oneness at all. I'm just

there's not oneness at all. I'm just saying that it's really beautiful

saying that it's really beautiful to be in the meadow of all the different

to be in the meadow of all the different organisms that are together meadowing.

organisms that are together meadowing. Right? Let's call the meadow the oneness

Right? Let's call the meadow the oneness and all the organisms that are making

and all the organisms that are making the meadow

the meadow >> in this beautiful sacred dance, you

>> in this beautiful sacred dance, you know,

know, >> and and so

>> and and so >> I I don't want to lose sight of the

>> I I don't want to lose sight of the dance

dance >> because I'm in the dance.

>> because I'm in the dance. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> So

>> So >> beautiful.

>> beautiful. >> Yeah. And and I what I also take from it

>> Yeah. And and I what I also take from it is that in all it's all one that oneness

is that in all it's all one that oneness and can sort of imply a wish towards

and can sort of imply a wish towards transcendence

transcendence which is not what we perhaps might need

which is not what we perhaps might need right now. You also critiqued in your

right now. You also critiqued in your presentation sort of the the whole

presentation sort of the the whole program of transhumanism and

program of transhumanism and transcendence of the natural. Mhm.

transcendence of the natural. Mhm. >> It's like a weird agenda that also

>> It's like a weird agenda that also echoes, I think, sort of

echoes, I think, sort of rapture ideologies, some forms of

rapture ideologies, some forms of Christianity, etc. But now just in a new

Christianity, etc. But now just in a new jacket of of of hijacked by sort of

jacket of of of hijacked by sort of hyper technology, making it much more

hyper technology, making it much more dangerous, I think, in a sense,

dangerous, I think, in a sense, >> which is not what we really need right

>> which is not what we really need right now. But it als it all comes from

now. But it als it all comes from thinking that there is sort of a higher

thinking that there is sort of a higher one or a higher level I can transcend to

one or a higher level I can transcend to whereas I I should be meadowing. I

whereas I I should be meadowing. I should be dancing. That's at least what

should be dancing. That's at least what it sort of resonates with me.

it sort of resonates with me. >> I I I guess so. I mean, I think for me

>> I I I guess so. I mean, I think for me the inquiry has always been and I

the inquiry has always been and I certainly this is an extension of my

certainly this is an extension of my dad's work and his dad's work. Um

dad's work and his dad's work. Um uh the inquiry

uh the inquiry is

is around

what's happening in these relationships? What's happening in this communication?

What's happening in this communication? What where does this reflect back on

What where does this reflect back on other generations and other organisms

other generations and other organisms and other contexts and um just the

and other contexts and um just the fascination with like how we came to

fascination with like how we came to have this conversation

have this conversation and um for example or how you tell your

and um for example or how you tell your kids to do the dishes

kids to do the dishes and those things are equally as

and those things are equally as important. They're equally an expression

important. They're equally an expression of your perception of the world.

of your perception of the world. Yeah.

Yeah. >> Um,

>> Um, let alone, you know, how you ride the

let alone, you know, how you ride the bus or

bus or take care of your parents or don't or,

take care of your parents or don't or, you know, like everything we do is an

you know, like everything we do is an expression of that initial sort of

expression of that initial sort of perception of how you're learning to be

perception of how you're learning to be in the world. If you had been born

in the world. If you had been born 15,000 years ago,

What would your hands hold in a day? What would they make? What would they

What would they make? What would they heal?

heal? What would they do?

What would they do? Same hands. I mean, physiologically, you

Same hands. I mean, physiologically, you haven't changed that much in 15,000

haven't changed that much in 15,000 years.

years. And yet, life has changed a great deal.

And yet, life has changed a great deal. So, when we say, "Yeah, but that's not

So, when we say, "Yeah, but that's not how life is. You can't just think about

how life is. You can't just think about things transcontextually and deal with

things transcontextually and deal with the warm data. That's not how life is.

the warm data. That's not how life is. What are you talking about? Which is

What are you talking about? Which is it is absolutely possible that life can

it is absolutely possible that life can be different. It always has been

be different. It always has been different.

different. So that that thing of where are those

So that that thing of where are those places where we can nourish the

places where we can nourish the possibility

possibility for ways of being together differently

for ways of being together differently that support life

that support life and learning and curiosity and integrity

and learning and curiosity and integrity and generosity.

and generosity. And that means that we're going to have

And that means that we're going to have to face that a lot of the things that

to face that a lot of the things that came before have actually been

came before have actually been detrimental to those things.

detrimental to those things. Yeah, there's this I feel this urge

Yeah, there's this I feel this urge always to for myself and people watching

always to for myself and people watching to to make it practical. What what can I

to to make it practical. What what can I do now? What can I do today? And I know

do now? What can I do today? And I know sensing reading your book that that

sensing reading your book that that might be part of the problem that sort

might be part of the problem that sort of urge for practical solutions. What

of urge for practical solutions. What can we do? Because it very much relates

can we do? Because it very much relates to that sort of matching. I want to

to that sort of matching. I want to match it. Um but what are your thoughts

match it. Um but what are your thoughts there? because it is we are in deep

there? because it is we are in deep trouble and and and

trouble and and and those boots that you want to be for your

those boots that you want to be for your children they need to be polished they

children they need to be polished they need to be ready to meet the sort of

need to be ready to meet the sort of challenges ahead. Um so that requires

challenges ahead. Um so that requires work. What what are your thoughts here

work. What what are your thoughts here that that urge that wish for

that that urge that wish for practicality and

practicality and >> well first I I want to say that a change

>> well first I I want to say that a change in perception

in perception is a change is an action.

is a change is an action. that is an action. And people sometimes

that is an action. And people sometimes ask me like, you know,

ask me like, you know, what does worm data do? And and I say

what does worm data do? And and I say nothing. It doesn't do anything because

nothing. It doesn't do anything because it's doing everything.

it's doing everything. Right? If you have a shift in the

Right? If you have a shift in the premises and the base of your

premises and the base of your perception, it changes the way you do

perception, it changes the way you do everything.

everything. The way you communicate with the robot

The way you communicate with the robot online, the way you perceive

online, the way you perceive the other people who are walking down

the other people who are walking down the street, the way you you are with

the street, the way you you are with your children, the way you are with your

your children, the way you are with your spouse, the way you are the way you

spouse, the way you are the way you think about the past generations, the

think about the past generations, the way you think about the future

way you think about the future generations, the way everything changes.

generations, the way everything changes. So we could point to specifics and the

So we could point to specifics and the practicality of that. But I think I

practicality of that. But I think I would rather take that word practicality

would rather take that word practicality and make it into practice.

and make it into practice. What is the practice in which there is a

What is the practice in which there is a shift of perception

shift of perception and where do you practice? When do you

and where do you practice? When do you practice? How do you practice that? And

practice? How do you practice that? And my response to that would be in every

my response to that would be in every moment of the day

moment of the day >> you have the possibility where

>> you have the possibility where >> where did the glass come from? What is

>> where did the glass come from? What is the what's happening with the water?

the what's happening with the water? What is the way in which I might

What is the way in which I might perceive how much water I've had or not

perceive how much water I've had or not had? And you know there there's so like

had? And you know there there's so like everything that we do in a day or don't

everything that we do in a day or don't do is an action.

do is an action. So, how are we perceiving that?

So, how are we perceiving that? How much context is there? If you just,

How much context is there? If you just, you know, you can look at your blue

you know, you can look at your blue jeans or your breakfast or your kids

jeans or your breakfast or your kids math assignment

math assignment and think about

and think about what's happening in this communication.

what's happening in this communication. What are the relationships that have

What are the relationships that have made this moment come to be?

made this moment come to be? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And how do we respond to it in a way

And how do we respond to it in a way that allows for there to be movement to

that allows for there to be movement to be shifting?

be shifting? Right? So I one of my stepsons was

Right? So I one of my stepsons was having a hard time with math

having a hard time with math and uh he's a fantastic artist and hated

and uh he's a fantastic artist and hated math.

math. And so it came to our attention that if

And so it came to our attention that if something didn't happen that he was

something didn't happen that he was going to actually fail math. and then he

going to actually fail math. and then he wouldn't be able to go to art school.

wouldn't be able to go to art school. >> So, what do you do?

>> So, what do you do? What do you do? Well, the obvious thing

What do you do? Well, the obvious thing you do is you match. You got a problem

you do is you match. You got a problem with math, you hire you take you take

with math, you hire you take you take them to the math tutor. You get a math

them to the math tutor. You get a math help. You do you address the math

help. You do you address the math problem.

problem. But that's not what we did.

But that's not what we did. Because if we had done that, he might

Because if we had done that, he might have passed math,

but what else would have happened? So, we brought the kids together and all

So, we brought the kids together and all his older brothers and sisters said,

his older brothers and sisters said, "Well, we'll help with math." And they

"Well, we'll help with math." And they came over taking turns on Sundays and I

came over taking turns on Sundays and I made a big plate of food and they spent

made a big plate of food and they spent the night and the whole living room was

the night and the whole living room was filled with the family helping with the

filled with the family helping with the math.

math. And then one weekend

And then one weekend I had to go do a seminar somewhere

I had to go do a seminar somewhere and I asked this

and I asked this kid,

kid, "Can you help take care of my 95year-old

"Can you help take care of my 95year-old mother?" Okay. Because once we had this

mother?" Okay. Because once we had this family coming together, helping each

family coming together, helping each other every Sunday,

other every Sunday, we suddenly had a culture of family

we suddenly had a culture of family helping each other.

helping each other. It was not everybody for themselves

It was not everybody for themselves anymore.

anymore. >> Everybody's helping everybody now.

>> Everybody's helping everybody now. >> So, it was totally logical

>> So, it was totally logical for me to say, "Can you help with my

for me to say, "Can you help with my mother while I'm gone for the weekend?"

mother while I'm gone for the weekend?" Sure.

Sure. So, he's helping with my mother. Now,

So, he's helping with my mother. Now, there's there's I don't know that

there's there's I don't know that there's many ways to make life look more

there's many ways to make life look more um

um vital

vital than to be in service to someone who's

than to be in service to someone who's close to death.

close to death. and to get this 17-year-old kid to spend

and to get this 17-year-old kid to spend the weekend, not with his friends, not

the weekend, not with his friends, not at parties, not running around, but with

at parties, not running around, but with my mother who was close to death.

my mother who was close to death. >> And at the end of that weekend, he had a

>> And at the end of that weekend, he had a very different set of ideas

very different set of ideas about things

about things >> and went into school the next week and

>> and went into school the next week and totally addressed math differently. So

totally addressed math differently. So where's the change?

where's the change? Where was it? But do you see what I'm

Where was it? But do you see what I'm saying?

saying? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> So this is the the questions that we're

>> So this is the the questions that we're asking here are how if you have a

asking here are how if you have a situation like this where things are out

situation like this where things are out of relationship, people are polarizing

of relationship, people are polarizing and and in the polarization is

and and in the polarization is humiliation, is further isolation, is

humiliation, is further isolation, is you know everything we're trying to make

you know everything we're trying to make is going to be in the relationship.

is going to be in the relationship. And yet so much of our world is about

And yet so much of our world is about breaking down relationship, using

breaking down relationship, using relationship to destroy relationship.

relationship to destroy relationship. So instead of getting that math tutor,

So instead of getting that math tutor, we probably could have got him a a good

we probably could have got him a a good grade,

grade, but at what cost?

>> Whereas this way, >> yeah, beautiful.

>> yeah, beautiful. >> There was a whole family relational pro.

>> There was a whole family relational pro. There was so much that happened in that

There was so much that happened in that >> that when he actually went into math, he

>> that when he actually went into math, he went in with a different sense of what

went in with a different sense of what his life was about.

his life was about. Right? That's what I mean when I say

Right? That's what I mean when I say warm data doesn't change anything

warm data doesn't change anything because it changes everything.

because it changes everything. This is a warm story. Yeah. It for me

This is a warm story. Yeah. It for me for me these things have to do with my

for me these things have to do with my my notion of self and my notion of how

my notion of self and my notion of how do I relate to these contexts.

do I relate to these contexts. I lately am aware of becoming more aware

I lately am aware of becoming more aware of how I relate to objects and what sort

of how I relate to objects and what sort of example or bad example I give my

of example or bad example I give my kids. We have too many stuff in the

kids. We have too many stuff in the house. So I cannot give just an old

house. So I cannot give just an old bike,

bike, old equipment laying around rusty

old equipment laying around rusty because I left it in the rain. I think

because I left it in the rain. I think that's not a nice relationship to an

that's not a nice relationship to an object I want to teach my children but

object I want to teach my children but happens because I'm cluttered too much.

happens because I'm cluttered too much. So be becoming aware of my relationship

So be becoming aware of my relationship with objects other than just being their

with objects other than just being their own the owner of it or

own the owner of it or >> and I'm sensing I'm in a relation with

>> and I'm sensing I'm in a relation with these objects if only because my

these objects if only because my children see how I relate to it and it

children see how I relate to it and it teaches them something about the world

teaches them something about the world they live in. So already there it has

they live in. So already there it has something that aspect and um in your

something that aspect and um in your book and your presentation you you also

book and your presentation you you also point to that. that question not sort of

point to that. that question not sort of clinically called asking who am I or who

clinically called asking who am I or who can I be but bringing context in uh who

can I be but bringing context in uh who can I be when I'm with you who can I be

can I be when I'm with you who can I be maybe stupid for the in this building

maybe stupid for the in this building I'm in this building

I'm in this building >> so absolutely

>> so absolutely >> right right

>> right right >> yeah questions like these so I like that

>> yeah questions like these so I like that is that a sort of a rule of thumb people

is that a sort of a rule of thumb people can sort of to whenever you come to this

can sort of to whenever you come to this identity question bring relationship in

identity question bring relationship in >> I think it's a a a an important way to

>> I think it's a a a an important way to move the um the positioning of the way

move the um the positioning of the way you see yourself,

you see yourself, right? And and certainly there has been

right? And and certainly there has been training

training to ask who am I? How do I be a better

to ask who am I? How do I be a better person? How do I get ahead in life? How

person? How do I get ahead in life? How do I become a success? How do I

do I become a success? How do I become spiritually enlight enlightened?

become spiritually enlight enlightened? How do I whatever I I I I I

How do I whatever I I I I I and um I mean I grew up around this.

and um I mean I grew up around this. This is the whole self-help thing. This

This is the whole self-help thing. This is you know there's a whole lot of

is you know there's a whole lot of notions of

notions of >> the human potential

>> the human potential >> personal yeah development and so on.

>> personal yeah development and so on. >> And yet we all know you know that the

>> And yet we all know you know that the way you are with one friend is so

way you are with one friend is so different than how you are with someone

different than how you are with someone else. Sometimes you're the clever one.

else. Sometimes you're the clever one. Sometimes you're the funny one.

Sometimes you're the funny one. Sometimes you're the serious one.

Sometimes you're the serious one. Sometimes you're the wise one. Sometimes

Sometimes you're the wise one. Sometimes you are

you are totally formal and stuck and you can't

totally formal and stuck and you can't say anything and they there's no way you

say anything and they there's no way you can let yourself shine. And other times

can let yourself shine. And other times you totally overdo it. Right? Who are

you totally overdo it. Right? Who are you in this circumstance, in that

you in this circumstance, in that circumstance? and you change

circumstance? and you change very much not because

very much not because you're inauthentic

you're inauthentic but because you are a living organism

but because you are a living organism responding to the complexity around you.

responding to the complexity around you. So in the warm data lab when people are

So in the warm data lab when people are randomly getting piled in with other

randomly getting piled in with other people I don't know what anyone's going

people I don't know what anyone's going to say. I mean, it's most people who run

to say. I mean, it's most people who run like group facilitation projects get

like group facilitation projects get super nervous like what is going to

super nervous like what is going to happen and I'm always like it's going to

happen and I'm always like it's going to be fine. We have no idea what's going to

be fine. We have no idea what's going to happen, but it's going to be fine. Why

happen, but it's going to be fine. Why is it going to be fine in a world of

is it going to be fine in a world of polarization where everybody

polarization where everybody >> is pretty much polarized in some way

>> is pretty much polarized in some way against pretty much everybody else

against pretty much everybody else depending on what topic you happen to be

depending on what topic you happen to be discussing?

discussing? >> Yeah. Um, how is how in the world is it

>> Yeah. Um, how is how in the world is it going to be okay?

And what happens is that people make adjustments

adjustments and who can I be when I'm with you? Who

and who can I be when I'm with you? Who can you be when you're with me?

can you be when you're with me? And because of the the structure of the

And because of the the structure of the lab with all the different contexts and

lab with all the different contexts and the question, one of the things that

the question, one of the things that happens is people

happens is people cannot speak from their scripts.

cannot speak from their scripts. So we have polarization

So we have polarization when we don't have context.

when we don't have context. >> In order to generate

>> In order to generate polarization, you have to remove

polarization, you have to remove context.

context. Think about that.

Think about that. All right. So, when we get all the

All right. So, when we get all the context back in there, usually it's

context back in there, usually it's like, well, we're discussing health and

like, well, we're discussing health and you're, you know, we are not bringing in

you're, you know, we are not bringing in the economic thing, but in the lab,

the economic thing, but in the lab, economics is right there. It's there.

economics is right there. It's there. You may not be in that context, but it's

You may not be in that context, but it's there.

there. So,

So, disrupting the rehearsed scripts, most

disrupting the rehearsed scripts, most of the polarizations lie in

of the polarizations lie in pre-rehearsed

pre-rehearsed um algorithmic

um algorithmic uh scripts. This is how I feel about

uh scripts. This is how I feel about vaccines. This is how I feel about Gaza.

vaccines. This is how I feel about Gaza. This is how I feel about AI. This is how

This is how I feel about AI. This is how I feel about gender. This is how I feel

I feel about gender. This is how I feel about Right.

about Right. Um and we have practiced

Um and we have practiced what we're going to say.

what we're going to say. >> Yeah. But when the personal stories come

>> Yeah. But when the personal stories come out and they're deeply detailed

out and they're deeply detailed and we're not talking about gender,

and we're not talking about gender, we're not talking about war, we're not

we're not talking about war, we're not talking about

talking about health, we're talking about personal

health, we're talking about personal stories,

stories, that polarization is irrelevant.

that polarization is irrelevant. So I've had groups of people together

So I've had groups of people together that were I mean

that were I mean violently people whose families had been

violently people whose families had been you know killing each other

you know killing each other >> in those rooms

>> in those rooms and

and um Russians and Ukrainians and

um Russians and Ukrainians and Muslims and Jews and

Muslims and Jews and uh

uh every time I'm terrified that it's never

every time I'm terrified that it's never it's not going to work but it keeps

it's not going to work but it keeps working. It keeps holding. So there's

working. It keeps holding. So there's something there. There is

something there. There is there is still so much room for us to be

there is still so much room for us to be in our humanity together.

in our humanity together. >> Great. And it's so beautiful that you I

>> Great. And it's so beautiful that you I I I'm sort of very aware of the the the

I I'm sort of very aware of the the the the naming of it. like I I don't want to

the naming of it. like I I don't want to call it a your data lab a tool because

call it a your data lab a tool because it's it all but it it it it just makes

it's it all but it it it it just makes me aware of how trapped we are in

me aware of how trapped we are in mechanistic language in in industrial

mechanistic language in in industrial >> words for this. So whatever it's a

>> words for this. So whatever it's a >> it's a practice

>> it's a practice >> it's a practice that call it let's call

>> it's a practice that call it let's call it that and it's beautiful and good to

it that and it's beautiful and good to know for people who watch this we are

know for people who watch this we are about sort of rigorous science and and

about sort of rigorous science and and and this is based on the work of your

and this is based on the work of your father that you've continued doing

father that you've continued doing scientifically and it goes back to

scientifically and it goes back to cybernetics and it now touches upon

cybernetics and it now touches upon biosemiotics and this is hardcore

biosemiotics and this is hardcore science and the other story is becoming

science and the other story is becoming more and more

more and more >> a

>> a the scientism. It's a story of sort of

the scientism. It's a story of sort of where you leave so much out and you

where you leave so much out and you don't see that your model like you you

don't see that your model like you you you you just confound the the map of

you you just confound the the map of reality what with what reality truly is

reality what with what reality truly is >> and a thing where I find it painful

>> and a thing where I find it painful um you talk about in your warm data labs

um you talk about in your warm data labs also about life boating and you refer to

also about life boating and you refer to a thought experiment

a thought experiment >> by the

>> by the >> Garrett Harden. Yeah, Harden who came up

>> Garrett Harden. Yeah, Harden who came up with that thought experiment sort of and

with that thought experiment sort of and it it touches on sort of what is called

it it touches on sort of what is called effective altruism. What do you do in

effective altruism. What do you do in these hardcore situation where you have

these hardcore situation where you have to pick one uh yep multiple of these one

to pick one uh yep multiple of these one person on the uh on the train that you

person on the uh on the train that you have to you know you cannot stop the

have to you know you cannot stop the train. are you saving that person and

train. are you saving that person and people you're going to kill people and

people you're going to kill people and that lifeboat example is is on that sort

that lifeboat example is is on that sort of it's about being in a lifeboat with

of it's about being in a lifeboat with uh just place for what is it how many

uh just place for what is it how many people um

people um >> yeah I think the the original story is

>> yeah I think the the original story is that there's room for 50 people on the

that there's room for 50 people on the lifeboat and there's a hundred drowning

lifeboat and there's a hundred drowning people in the water

people in the water >> and how are you going to choose who

>> and how are you going to choose who you're going to save cuz if you put

you're going to save cuz if you put everybody on the boat the boat will sink

everybody on the boat the boat will sink >> nobody is

>> nobody is >> this is hard life man this is how it is

>> this is hard life man this is how it is you're going have to make decisions like

you're going have to make decisions like this and you're going to have to think

this and you're going to have to think of the meta messaging that's going on

of the meta messaging that's going on just

just >> in the question

>> in the question >> to think this is an ethics question.

>> to think this is an ethics question. >> Um

>> Um >> that's interesting. So it's not for you

>> that's interesting. So it's not for you an ethics question because that's how we

an ethics question because that's how we see these thought experiments. They're

see these thought experiments. They're philosophical thought experiments that

philosophical thought experiments that relate to ethics.

relate to ethics. >> Yeah. But look at the lack of ethics in

>> Yeah. But look at the lack of ethics in the question. M

the question. M >> it's so dark and it's so of course what

>> it's so dark and it's so of course what happens is if you ask a bad question

happens is if you ask a bad question you get bad responses.

you get bad responses. >> If you ask a question like who are you

>> If you ask a question like who are you going to save?

going to save? People are going to come up with

People are going to come up with responses like well should we save the

responses like well should we save the people with children so they can be

people with children so they can be parents? Should we save the elderly

parents? Should we save the elderly because they're wise? Should we save the

because they're wise? Should we save the people who are healthy because they're

people who are healthy because they're strong or the people who aren't healthy

strong or the people who aren't healthy because you can't abandon the sick or

because you can't abandon the sick or these are eugenics questions.

these are eugenics questions. These are really disgusting questions

because the people that are in the water are not floating numbers.

are not floating numbers. They're not floating categories of

They're not floating categories of people. They're people.

people. They're people. They're you. They're me.

They're you. They're me. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> They're, you know,

>> They're, you know, they're complex people with complex

they're complex people with complex lives.

Who in the world would you be to decide? >> And if you take that mindset, so you

>> And if you take that mindset, so you just do not ask that cold question, but

just do not ask that cold question, but you just see them as per people because

you just see them as per people because in your warm data lab, I suppose you

in your warm data lab, I suppose you work like that. And then

work like that. And then >> exactly

>> exactly >> possibilities open up that you weren't

>> possibilities open up that you weren't aware of.

aware of. >> So many possibilities open up.

>> So many possibilities open up. >> The boat cannot carry more people

>> The boat cannot carry more people though.

though. >> The boat cannot carry more people, but

>> The boat cannot carry more people, but you can figure it out. You can I don't

you can figure it out. You can I don't know. You depends on who's on the boat

know. You depends on who's on the boat and who's in the water and what you're

and who's in the water and what you're going to figure out together. Somebody

going to figure out together. Somebody might be a great swimmer. Somebody might

might be a great swimmer. Somebody might not know how to swim, but they might be

not know how to swim, but they might be good at doing this or that. Somebody who

good at doing this or that. Somebody who can I be when I'm with you? What if I

can I be when I'm with you? What if I think I'm super good at engineering or

think I'm super good at engineering or boat fixing and then I'm with you and I

boat fixing and then I'm with you and I realize, oh, but when I'm with you, what

realize, oh, but when I'm with you, what I'm good at is taking care of the babies

I'm good at is taking care of the babies or I'm good at making humor so people

or I'm good at making humor so people keep their spirits up or I'm good at

keep their spirits up or I'm good at tying clothes together so we figure it

tying clothes together so we figure it out. If I'm on the boat and there's a

out. If I'm on the boat and there's a hundred people in the water and 50

hundred people in the water and 50 seats, I'm not leaving anybody behind.

seats, I'm not leaving anybody behind. I'm pretty sure you're not either.

I'm pretty sure you're not either. >> No. I'm going to do every possible thing

>> No. I'm going to do every possible thing to drag people, pull people, take turns

to drag people, pull people, take turns swimming, do a thousand other things

swimming, do a thousand other things that besides just put 50 people in

that besides just put 50 people in chairs

chairs because of their category. Are you

because of their category. Are you kidding?

kidding? >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's like, but of course, Garrett Harden

>> It's like, but of course, Garrett Harden was a eugenicist.

was a eugenicist. So it's not an accident that this is a

So it's not an accident that this is a eugenics question, but it's the same

eugenics question, but it's the same kind of question that's laced into so

kind of question that's laced into so much

much >> actually of our questions around, you

>> actually of our questions around, you know, how do we model sustainable

know, how do we model sustainable living? Looking at the human being who's

living? Looking at the human being who's on the ground in the territory as a unit

on the ground in the territory as a unit that uses resources.

that uses resources. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Right. I mean,

>> Right. I mean, >> people in Sweden hardly eat any soy,

>> people in Sweden hardly eat any soy, >> right?

>> right? >> People in Japan might need more soy.

>> People in Japan might need more soy. >> People, you know, like what what do

>> People, you know, like what what do people need?

people need? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Well, nutrition itself is not a it's not

>> Well, nutrition itself is not a it's not a one-sizefits-all thing. If you're

a one-sizefits-all thing. If you're trying to feed the world, you don't need

trying to feed the world, you don't need to feed them all the same nutrition

to feed them all the same nutrition packet.

packet. And it's also sort of for me it's also a

And it's also sort of for me it's also a story of sort of binary modes of

story of sort of binary modes of thinking. Let's call it digital

thinking. Let's call it digital algorithmic versus sort of noisy uh

algorithmic versus sort of noisy uh where the solutions might be in the

where the solutions might be in the noise. We also heard Dennis Noble talk

noise. We also heard Dennis Noble talk yesterday with a beautiful

yesterday with a beautiful >> and that that harnessing stoasticity. So

>> and that that harnessing stoasticity. So it's about sort of the the noise in that

it's about sort of the the noise in that group of people which you think is noise

group of people which you think is noise your story about your life. I mean that

your story about your life. I mean that that doesn't matter. the boat has 15 50

that doesn't matter. the boat has 15 50 places and but what if that story tells

places and but what if that story tells me something that does something and now

me something that does something and now I see you and then that's what you're

I see you and then that's what you're talking about that's noise that becomes

talking about that's noise that becomes a signal or

a signal or >> in in that you're going to find so much

>> in in that you're going to find so much possibility

possibility >> and um if you're in this other way of

>> and um if you're in this other way of thinking the reductionist way of

thinking the reductionist way of thinking the possibility is edited out

thinking the possibility is edited out of the perception

>> and I don't think we can afford to do do that right now.

that right now. >> Yeah. And on a sort of communications

>> Yeah. And on a sort of communications level, I'm we're making a podcast right

level, I'm we're making a podcast right now and I hope to bring this message to

now and I hope to bring this message to the to the world. The struggle I

the to the world. The struggle I sometimes feel is

sometimes feel is that I in a culture that still is

that I in a culture that still is mechanistic industrial I have to speak

mechanistic industrial I have to speak that language. You must experience a

that language. You must experience a problem like that. You have this warm

problem like that. You have this warm data story because of warm data that

data story because of warm data that >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So that sometimes even if you don't like

So that sometimes even if you don't like it, you have to bring in sort of the the

it, you have to bring in sort of the the mathematics or the cybernetics or stuff

mathematics or the cybernetics or stuff to just make it rigorous. What are your

to just make it rigorous. What are your thoughts there on how to just

thoughts there on how to just communicate this or or

communicate this or or >> Well, it totally depends on who you're

>> Well, it totally depends on who you're talking to.

talking to. >> If you're talking to a bunch of

>> If you're talking to a bunch of scientists and academics, then you have

scientists and academics, then you have to dabble in all the academic

to dabble in all the academic underpinnings, which there is plenty.

underpinnings, which there is plenty. >> Yeah, we can put that in description,

>> Yeah, we can put that in description, right? for people who think this is a

right? for people who think this is a soft story. We can give you the science,

soft story. We can give you the science, right?

right? >> Yeah. I mean, it's it's there's lots of

>> Yeah. I mean, it's it's there's lots of science. Um,

science. Um, >> but more often than not,

>> but more often than not, I'm talking to somebody who really

I'm talking to somebody who really doesn't care what's going on in academia

doesn't care what's going on in academia and they want to know,

and they want to know, why should I be interested? What do you

why should I be interested? What do you mean complexity? I don't want

mean complexity? I don't want complexity. I want my life to just be

complexity. I want my life to just be simple. I got to go to work on Monday.

simple. I got to go to work on Monday. I don't want to hear about complexity.

I don't want to hear about complexity. In which case, I'm like, "Okay, let's

In which case, I'm like, "Okay, let's talk about beer."

Right? You're talking about beer. Okay. So, what's beer? Is beer the stuff in

So, what's beer? Is beer the stuff in your glass? Is it the Is it the hops?

your glass? Is it the Is it the hops? You like a good hops, right? You like an

You like a good hops, right? You like an IPA. Is it the distribution? Is it the

IPA. Is it the distribution? Is it the culture of the pub? Is it the weekend?

culture of the pub? Is it the weekend? Is it the, you know, the the economics?

Is it the, you know, the the economics? Is it the Is it the the the actual

Is it the Is it the the the actual fermentation process?

fermentation process? Is it the music? Where's the beer?

Is it the music? Where's the beer? So, sometimes

So, sometimes it's like that. Other times I'm talking

it's like that. Other times I'm talking to somebody and they don't care about

to somebody and they don't care about beer and they don't care about academia.

beer and they don't care about academia. Imagine that.

Imagine that. And then

And then >> how do you know when to tell somebody

>> how do you know when to tell somebody that you love them?

that you love them? How do you know when to do that? Because

How do you know when to do that? Because if you say it at the wrong time, you can

if you say it at the wrong time, you can blow it.

blow it. >> And if you don't say it, you can blow

>> And if you don't say it, you can blow it.

it. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> So, how do you know? Is it because

>> So, how do you know? Is it because you've been on five dates or it's been

you've been on five dates or it's been five months or you No,

five months or you No, >> there's not a there's not a formula for

>> there's not a there's not a formula for this. You're going to have to feel into

this. You're going to have to feel into it,

it, right? That's the warm data. You know

right? That's the warm data. You know how to do warm data. You do it all the

how to do warm data. You do it all the time. There's never been a business deal

time. There's never been a business deal without warm data. So don't tell me

without warm data. So don't tell me you're in business and you don't

you're in business and you don't understand warm data,

understand warm data, >> right? It's always been warm data.

>> right? It's always been warm data. >> So same with the medical

>> So same with the medical >> world, right? A good doctor, a good

>> world, right? A good doctor, a good teacher has always been that one that

teacher has always been that one that could see something.

could see something. I I see. You know, you look okay. Your

I I see. You know, you look okay. Your vitals are good.

vitals are good. But you know, how long has your hair

But you know, how long has your hair been that dry? They see something that

been that dry? They see something that nobody else saw.

nobody else saw. Why did they see that thing?

Why did they see that thing? What What relationships are they seeing?

What What relationships are they seeing? Right? My kids used to think I was

Right? My kids used to think I was totally psychic. I'd be like, "You got

totally psychic. I'd be like, "You got to put your coat on before you go

to put your coat on before you go outside cuz it's going to rain today."

outside cuz it's going to rain today." And they'd be like, "No, it's nice. I'm

And they'd be like, "No, it's nice. I'm not wearing my coat. You're taking your

not wearing my coat. You're taking your coat because it's gonna rain. And then

coat because it's gonna rain. And then it rains and they think, "Mom's psychic.

it rains and they think, "Mom's psychic. I'm not psychic."

I'm not psychic." But it's not that hard after a while to

But it's not that hard after a while to perceive the phenomena.

perceive the phenomena. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> You know, so what what phenomena are you

>> You know, so what what phenomena are you perceiving?

perceiving? How do you respond?

How do you respond? >> Openness. Openness. Yeah. To to that

>> Openness. Openness. Yeah. To to that all. My final question to you, Nora, I

all. My final question to you, Nora, I really enjoyed talking to you. Are you

really enjoyed talking to you. Are you in the end? Um

in the end? Um the the beautiful poem about motherhood

the the beautiful poem about motherhood now which resonated with me strongly

now which resonated with me strongly which can lead sort of this just

which can lead sort of this just weigh happy, right? The story can weigh

weigh happy, right? The story can weigh happy.

happy. >> Are you in the end?

>> Are you in the end? >> Does the hope still are you more hopeful

>> Does the hope still are you more hopeful or how does that

or how does that >> how is that for you?

>> how is that for you? Well,

Well, I think for me probably the the piece

I think for me probably the the piece that I am most terrified of of our being

that I am most terrified of of our being in this metacar crisis, poly crisis,

in this metacar crisis, poly crisis, multicrisis, omni crisis

multicrisis, omni crisis is

is not the actual problems

not the actual problems but the need to seek solace

but the need to seek solace in finding solutions that are totally

in finding solutions that are totally inadequate.

We're doing good cuz we are, you know, recycling

recycling bottle caps. Like, oh, come on.

bottle caps. Like, oh, come on. You know, the the the the

issues that we're facing require that moment of taking a step back,

that moment of taking a step back, seeing that that the situation is much

seeing that that the situation is much worse than you thought.

worse than you thought. And then recognizing that as a living

And then recognizing that as a living organism you are in fact I am in fact we

organism you are in fact I am in fact we are all

are all actually participants in creation

actually participants in creation itself. We are creative.

itself. We are creative. You can't actually stop people from

You can't actually stop people from being creative.

being creative. But if if you illustrate one iota, one

But if if you illustrate one iota, one small fraction of a fragmented problem

small fraction of a fragmented problem and ask people to find a solution,

and ask people to find a solution, they're going to find one

they're going to find one >> and that solution is going to cause more

>> and that solution is going to cause more problems. If you lay it all out and

problems. If you lay it all out and everything is completely impossible and

everything is completely impossible and oh my god, what are we going to do?

oh my god, what are we going to do? They'll sit there for a minute with a

They'll sit there for a minute with a great big belly ache and in about 20

great big belly ache and in about 20 minutes they'll start to work on it.

minutes they'll start to work on it. That's my experience. So the thing that

That's my experience. So the thing that gives me hope is to go to the place

gives me hope is to go to the place where it looks like there's none and to

where it looks like there's none and to see the creative process take place. The

see the creative process take place. The thing that gives me the least amount of

thing that gives me the least amount of hope is false hope.

hope is false hope. >> Thank you very much for a wonderful

>> Thank you very much for a wonderful conversation.

conversation. >> Thank you. Yeah.

>> Thank you. Yeah. >> Thank you.

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YouTube Transcript:Why We Need To Quit 'Fixing' The World: A Cybernetic Approach To Planetary Challenges

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Why We Need To Quit 'Fixing' The World: A Cybernetic Approach To Planetary Challenges