High-functioning men often self-destruct in private due to societal pressures, internalized shame, and a learned suppression of emotions, leading to maladaptive coping mechanisms.
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Why do so many high functioning men
self-destruct in private?
>> It's like you're like describing my my
clients. Oh boy. Um I think there's a
number of different reasons. There's
there's trying to maintain this image
externally and part of that image is the
perfectionist. So there's never any room
for downfall. There's never any room for
weakness. there's never any room for
problems um or issues. And so for a lot
of men that becomes
it becomes something that they start to
medicate and usually that has rooting in
childhood right that they had to be a
certain way in order to garner love to
garner attention. So for a lot of super
high performing men they're you know
they grew up in an environment where
they kind of had to be perfect and if
they were perfect enough then they would
get affection then they would get love
they would get praise they get
validation and so for a lot of young
guys it's like a lot of men in general
it's if I can be perfect enough and I
can perform well enough
>> then everything will be okay but if that
starts to falter just a little bit then
it says something about me personally it
means that something's wrong with me and
then shame starts to creep in and they
don't want anybody to know that that's
happening. And so slowly over time,
because they can't admit that there's
something wrong, they can't admit that
there's an issue. They can't sort of
vocalize it, they start to medicate that
shame or they start to medicate the
perceived weakness, the insecurity, the anxiety
anxiety
>> uh with booze or weed or women or, you
know, hookers or whatever it is, right?
whatever their sort of drug choice is,
could be gambling or whatever.
>> And slowly over time, that becomes the
method that they need in order to just
maintain homeostasis. And it's almost
like there's a debt building in the
background that's building over time.
Every little mess up, every little screw
up is just sort of acrewing this this
massive debt inside of them and
eventually it just craters. Um, and so,
you know, in a lot of ways, they need to
be able to bring forward some of those
weaknesses or insecurities or the
anxieties or, you know, the the trauma
that they've just been holding on for
[ __ ] decades, you know.
>> Um, so I think that's a huge part of it. And
And
>> and I think for a lot of men, it's it's
correlated to how it's correlated to
their sense of masculinity and their
sense of manhood. Mhm.
>> So, it's like, well, if I admit this
weakness, if I admit that I'm
struggling, then it means that there's
something wrong with me as a man, that
I'm less masculine. Um, and I don't
think that that's necessarily something
that we think about top of mind. It's
more per performance at all costs. And
so, I don't want to admit that there's
something going on behind the scenes.
>> As you're saying that, the word I don't
know why, but the word toxic masculinity
came up. This actually feels like a kind
of place that it suits in a bizarre sort
of way that it's taking traits of
masculinity and making them a
performance, forcing yourself to
perform. And it's a way not that
masculinity itself is toxic, which is
what the current like version of that
is. that this is a way to turn your
masculinity into something which becomes
like a prison guard in a way that sort
of locked you in jail for doing the
non-masculine thing and if you try you
can't necessarily break out of that. So
the high functioning guys are um what
the world rewards them for in public
they struggle with in private. >> Correct?
>> Correct?
>> High standards, hyper vigilance,
neuroticism, obsession, drive, desire
for conquer and mastery, lots of
competition, lots of comparison between
myself and other people. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> That is a type of pressure. uh and that pressure
pressure
causes them to
set very high standards and if they ever
fall short of those standards that
causes pain. I am not enough because I
have these high standards. These high
standards are why I've managed to become
so high functioning in the real world.
I'm a hard charging sort of dude. But
But
as uh fears about not being able to keep
up with this work rate that I've already
established for myself, uh my comparison
group is getting uh better and more
successful. Uh I'm finding it hard. Like
my physiology just can't keep up with
the burnout level that I'm requiring of
myself. All of these things build up
build up build up. And there needs to be
some sort of a release valve. One of the
release valves could be learning self
love, self-compassion, having somebody
that you can speak to about this, a
supportive partner who makes you feel
safe and secure in your like vulnerabilities.
vulnerabilities.
But if you aren't prepared to do that or
you don't have access to that, you turn
to something else, which is also like a
pressure release valve. Is that a fair
>> that's a fair I think we could probably
just summarize it by saying and this is
something that I wrote about uh in in my
book years ago which is that in male
culture it's very common that we teach
strength through suppression
>> and for high performing men that is way
overindexed right so it's I need to
develop competency capability strength
whether it's physical emotional mental
in the boardroom whatever But I'm going
to do that by suppressing the unsavory
parts of myself. I'm going to suppress
um maybe it's empathy. I'm going to
suppress that I'm exhausted. I'm going
to suppress these types of things. And
there's a cost to that suppression. And
so, you know, part of the hallmark of
being a great man in society has always
been your capacity and capability of
suppressing certain things in certain
moments so that you could go and do the
thing that nobody else wanted to do.
Right? It's like Navy Seals need to
suppress certain things in certain
moments so that they can get a job done.
Same with CEOs and executives and
athletes and yada yada yada, right? So
there's merit in that uh skill in being
able to sort of say, I'm going to put
this aside for right now so that I can
get this done and execute on something.
But for high performers, it's usually
that that is way overdialed. It's it's
overindexed. And the the problem with
that is that when some of those things
that are being suppressed go undelt with
then you know it sort of amasses a ton
of psychological energy,
>> right? And so all of a sudden, you're
having to keep down years of I don't
really like this [ __ ] job or I'm
disappointed in this marriage or, you
know, this isn't really the like way
that I thought things would play out or
I feel ashamed of, you know, all of
these little micro failures that aren't
really a failure to external people, but
for me it feels like this monstrous
thing, you know, and so all of a sudden
this accumulation of all these
suppressed emotions and disappointments
and perceived failures start to mass. mass
mass
>> and that has a tremendous amount of
energy which then needs to be dealt
with. And the problem is that how high
performing men have often been taught to
deal with those things is that you know
we've sort of had this normalized
culture of you know drink it off or you
know go rub one off and you'll feel
better. And so how we try and hit the
reset button on some of those
suppression suppressed emotions is
usually maladaptive behaviors. They're
they're not supportive. you know, they
don't help you feel better, right? It's
like you go and hire the hooker or, you
know, you go and watch the porn or you
go and have a bender, you know, and take
some Molly and go to a rave and then the
next day you're like, "Fuck, I feel like
[ __ ] now." >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> You know, and so it kind of compounds
things over time.
>> So, a lot of high performing men will go
on this arc. And I think the other
thing, maybe I'll just add one more
wrench into the mix here, is many high
performing men have built high
performance off of what I call shame
based motivation, dark motivation. And
so part of their fuel source is they're
trying to run away from the man that
their father said they'd probably
become. They're trying to run away from
the shame or the pain that they
experienced growing up. And so it's like
I don't want to be a failure at all
costs, right? Or I [ __ ] hate myself
and so I'm going to turn myself into
this absolute beast that is incredible
in, you know, in many different ways.
Or, you know, he was like an insecure
teenager or something like that. And so
what happens for a lot of high
performing men is they're actually using
shame as a fuel source. And how they get
to a place of excellence is through
self-deprecation. And this is very
different for women. I thought like
women don't generally use shame as a
fuel source in the same way that we do
or pain in the same way that we do. A
lot of men will use pain that they're
carrying internally
>> to actually motivate themselves towards
a goal. And I'm sure you've seen this
with so many people have sat across from
you, right? Where you start to hear
about their story and you're like, "Holy
shit." I mean, the stuff that you went
through, the stuff you experienced. And
so for a lot of high performing men,
what we do is we take that pain, we take
that shame, we take that anger or that
rage and we use that as a fuel source
for a period of time and and eventually
what happens is it starts to have a net
negative um outcome.
>> Mhm. for there. We sort of reach a
tipping point where all of a sudden, you
know, I've worked with musicians where
they get all the accolades and the
awards and, you know, they're like world
famous rappers or what whatever uh
athletes that, you know, win the Super
Bowl and then the crash comes, you know,
and why is that? Well, they've been
using shame for so long to drive
themselves that they've never developed
an internal architecture of
self-recognition, of real self-recognition.
self-recognition.
And so they've just tried to motivate
themselves to success through shame and
self-deprecation. And so when the
accolades come, they can't actually
enjoy it. They're not able to actually
recognize that they've accomplished and
achieved something meaningful. And so
the whole time that they've been
working, that they've been driving
themselves and killing themselves and
working towards this like big
illustrious goal, all of a sudden it
comes and they're not able to actually
bask and they're like, "Wow, I actually
did that." And then the collapse
happens, you know, and that's when you
see them just [ __ ] crash out, you
know, and you see the, you know, the TMZ
stories and [ __ ] like that.
>> Is it a bad thing to use your pain as fuel?
fuel?
>> No, I don't think so. I mean, this is
this is the kind of this is the kind of
catch 22 about it is
>> feels like a paradox.
>> It is. It is very paradoxical. And and
I've sat with this for a long time
because I I think in my own journey,
this is very much the same thing. you
know, I used my my own pain, my own
shame, my own you sort of like um rage
towards the world to motivate myself for
a period of time. And I I don't think
it's necessarily a bad thing. It's if we
don't build the the counter tools to
support ourselves, the generative tools
to be able to appreciate, acknowledge
ourselves, to be able to recognize
ourselves for actually doing good, to be
able to receive goodness in the moments
where we actually achieve, accomplish
something. Um, that's when it becomes
problematic. So, it's not necessarily a
bad thing to allow pain or shame to
drive us and to motivate us. I think for
some people for a period of time that's
actually maybe necessary because they
need to to do something to disprove the
internal story of I'm a piece of [ __ ]
I'm never going to amount to anything.
I'm never I'm going to show that, you
know, I'm going to show dad. I'm going
to show mom that, you know, whatever it is.
is.
>> Um, and so it's not necessarily a bad
thing. However, it has a shelf life. And
if we don't develop the tools that are
meant to go in tandem with it, it's
always destined to fail. always destined
>> I find this topic like endlessly
fascinating. I think it's so
interesting. I had this one insight I've
been thinking about recently which is an
infinite one rep max. M so the idea that um
um
most people reach a particular level of pain
pain
and that level of pain is maybe before a
breakdown. Like the whole point of there
being warning signs is that they warn
you before the catastrophe occurs,
right? You slow down before you get
toward the cliff, not as you're going
off the cliff and you hit the brake as
you're going off the edge. Right?
>> I mean, you could do that. It's just
>> it's pointless, right? Like the whole
point of the warning signs was to stop
you from needing to go off the cliff in
the first place, >> right?
>> right?
>> Um, and one of the things that guys are
praised for and women as well,
especially meritocratic capitalist
society, blah blah.
>> If you're able to suppress, if you're
able to outwork, outsuffer, be more
conscientious, if you're able to put up
with discomfort, basically you're able
to do things that most other people
wouldn't want to do or couldn't do for
longer than other people.
society rewards you. So, you are praised
in public for this thing. But the
problem is that same skill in your
private life
>> causes you to be able to put up with a
level of suffering that is maladaptive. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Like if you were able to say, um, I can work
work
16our days, 6 days a week for a year,
for 5 years to build my startup to make
Can you switch that off when it comes to
your current relationship which is
totally toxic and turning your brain
inside out and you go, "No, no, no. I'm
the David Gogggins of suffering, >> right?
>> right?
>> Like, [ __ ] carrying the boats. I'll
carry the whole fleet." >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Like, give me more. Load more of this
onto me. And I I think it the
interesting element here is that your
capacity that you are praised for in
public is toxic in private and you don't
get to compartmentalize it. And the
issue with this conversation online a
lot of the time is that people are conflating
conflating
the uh place that the tool gets used.
Like the tool should be praised and is
very useful
>> in the real world. It's useful at your
father's funeral. It's useful at the job
interview. It's useful when the [ __ ]
hits the fan and you need to find a new
career or whatever. It is not useful
when it comes to dealing with your
health problems, >> right?
>> right?
>> It is not useful when it comes to
dealing with your intimate relationships
or the way that you and your friends
don't ever see each other or ever open
up to each other or whatever. And this
again, why do high functioning men often
self-destruct in private? Because the
same it's it's like having a sword and
the sword having two edges and it being
really great on the for swing and then
constantly [ __ ] nicking you on the
back swing. >> Right.
>> Right.
>> Does that make sense?
>> It makes total sense. Yeah. I mean
there's a I I think about this a lot
that I think we as modern men have
become very undimensional. we become
very single single singular uh
dimensional that there's a kind of
overindexing on these very specific
skills and a letting go of other skill
sets that could actually support us and
I think for a lot of high performing men
that that is that is a huge part of it
and it's challenging because I think one
of the things that I remember working
you know my wife and I have an office in
Manhattan and I was working with I was
working with this client years ago and
uh he owned a hedge fund and massive
hedge fund in the city and we started to
talk about some stuff that you know his
success was starting to be impaired
because he was dealing with really high
levels of anxiety and his whole life has
changed. he had had kids and blah blah
blah blah, but he had found himself in
this spot where he could cognitively see
that the way he had done things up until
that point was no longer going to work.
And he could also cognitively see that
this that he had been suppressing a
whole bunch of stuff from his youth, the
stuff that he had gone through in
childhood and um decisions that he had
made in the past. And he had never
really dealt or confronted with any of
them. And so he could cognitively see I
know that that's having a net negative
impact on me,
>> but I'm terrified to deal with this. And
this is the other thing that most high
performing men have to deal with is
they're terrified to deal with the
things that are actually starting to
crater them because they are worried
that it's going to hinder their
performance to deal with them.
>> So good. So good.
>> Right. So, it's like, well, how am I
going to perform in my job, running this
hedge fund, running this venture capital
firm, running this tech company, you
know, in whatever it is, whatever it is
that they're doing, whatever their
career is, how am I supposed to perform
to make money to provide for myself or
my family if I start to dive into this
emotional [ __ ]
>> If I'm deep in my fields while I'm deep
and it's such a real thing. It's like if
I get cracked open and I start to talk
about, you know, the neglect or my
father's death or whatever it is, how am
I going to function? And so there's this
very real fear of if I started to deal
with the thing that I know is bringing
me down, it's going to bring me down
even faster. >> And
>> And
for for a lot of men, that's the first
hurdle. That's the very first hurdle is
realizing that you can still function
and you can still perform
with your heart involved I guess you
could say you know with a kind of
emotional um deep dive that you you know
you go into stuff from your past being
able to go into the things that you've
been carrying and and it will be
different you know it does alter things
it does change things and you know in
there's a a great union psychologist
named Dr. James Hollis and he wrote this
book called The Middle Passage and it's
all about how we go through this kind of
turning in midlife and we've kind of
demonized it in Western culture. We talk
about the midlife crisis, right? People
have a midlife crisis and you know dude
buys a Porsche or you know they get
divorced and he gets the, you know, the
young woman uh and he's like, "Oh,
midlife crisis." But the the middle
passage is really meant to be this this
period of time where all the things that
weren't working that you've been
ignoring come to the surface and you're
confronted and having to deal with them.
And it's an incredibly important part of
maturation psychologically. But we try
and bypass that in our culture. We try
and get around dealing with the real uh
unsavory parts of our life that we've
just suppressed or repressed or ignored
or pretend, you know, aren't really
there. And it's incredibly important to
go through that phase because otherwise
maturation can't take place. There's a
very interesting correlation between
your ability to confront the unsavory
truths of your life and maturation.
Those two things go hand in hand. The
more that you can look at things that
are true that you dislike about yourself
and your life, the more that you're
going to be able to mature. And for us
in Western civilization and Western
culture, we don't like the descent,
right? Stock market goes up. And we
treat ourselves psychologically in the
same way as the stock market. We should
always be growing. And so any type of
descent, any type of collapse, any type
of falling apart, there's a there's not
only a demonization of that, but we have
devalued that period of time because
it's brutal. It's hard. And when you
hear people talk about it, usually
what you'll hear is people have really
found a deeper, truer sense of who they
are by going through these almost
catastrophic periods of time in their
life where things completely fall apart.
Everything, the business falls apart,
their sense of self falls apart, their
health falls apart, the relationship
that they thought was so steady falls
apart. and all of a sudden they're left
with now I have to face the truth of
what's always been there that I haven't
wanted to admit.
>> So I think that's a very important part
and for high performers they they're
just better at pushing it down. You know
they're just better at ignoring it for a
longer period of time and being very
high functional while doing it and then
eventually it catches up to them and
usually it's in a moment where
everything's come to fruition. you know,
it's like everything has happened and
everything's great and they're like,
"Yes." And then the collapse, you know,
and then in alchemy it's called the
negrado, right? It's called the decay,
the the blackening, the falling apart.
Um, and so it that's the period where
we, you know, things decay and fall
apart so that we can, you know, like a
phoenix rise from the ashes again and
and be be risen a new and a certain sort
of like a new way. So I feel like maybe
maybe you've gone through a little bit
of that recently with the health stuff and
and
>> permanently. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> But like what's that been like because
it I mean kind of we're we're sort of
talking about you in a way
>> always. This entire podcast is a thinly
veiled autobiography. Um every episode
dude [ __ ] thousand and something and
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Certainly
has been humbling. certainly made me
realize that the
the
game that I'm playing, even if I can win
it, uh is not necessarily the one that I
was designed for. And that is uh tamping
down sensitivity. Uh that is not
giving myself the level of self-care
that I probably need or deserve just
because I'm able to outwork my own
systems red lights. Mhm. Like
>> I just take a mallet to all of the
warning signs and I go like, you know,
the the classic like old car and all of
the engine lights are on, but you know
that if you whack the dashboard hard
enough, the connection drops out for a
little bit.
>> I was I was thinking like whack-a-ole.
Do you guys have that in the UK with
like the little moles that pop up and
you're just like, "No, no, no.
>> I'm not listening to you. I'm not
listening to you. I'm not listening to
you." Um, but I I think the toxic fuel
thing and that being
uh the the concern of well, if I face
this thing, I'm going to be less
effective. Maybe the world's going to
abandon me. The whole reason that I
started using the fuel was to get the
world to accept me and want me, and now
it kind of does. So, you're telling me
that I've got to let go of the thing
that I worked to get to face the thing
that I tried to run away from. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> It seems like a cosmic joke. >> Yep.
>> Yep.
>> It seems so unfair.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's I think in many
ways it's a reminder that like we we
can't we just can't run from the things that
that
that we know we need to address and deal
with. You know, there's there's always a
toll. There's always a price. And I
think in a big way, part of the dilemma
that we all have to face as human beings
is, am I willing to pay the price to get
that? Am I willing to pay the price to
ignore that? You know, it's like I I
probably could be more successful in my
career. Um, but I'd have to sacrifice my
kids. And I'm away from them a lot as it
is. You know, I'm away from them right
now to be here. And and every time I
leave, it's a conscious choice. And I do
believe that, you know, as fathers, we
we need to venture out into the world
and and sort of show that for our kids.
But but there is this sort of trade-off
that happens. I'm curious. I'm curious
for you as you've kind of gone through
that like I mean everything's blown up.
Everything's like be I can't imagine how
different your life is now from the
first time that we had our conversation
two years ago.
>> And I know you went through health
issues. And so what's it been like for
you to have this sort of like meteoric
rise and then have something just sort
of like stop you dead in your tracks and
have to deal with something that was
unexpected? It feels a little bit like
being a fraud in some ways because you
have this uh perspective of yourself. Um
you have this expectation which you've
put on you. You have this expectation
that you think the world is putting on
you too.
>> Um and you don't really know no one no
one actually knows why people like them.
Like no one know from a content creator
perspective. They don't. Like your
friends will say stuff like dude I I I
love how [ __ ] good of a listener you
are and like you just always make me
feel safe regulated. Ra,
but there's the bit rate of feedback is
too low for us to actually be able to
understand. So you go, well, maybe it's
because like he kept going. Maybe it's
because he showed the consistency or the
resilience and yeah, to be completely
flatlined and kicked in the nuts by
something that you didn't choose to do,
by something that was, you know, out of
your control. Uh, felt
felt
scary. It feels like, wow, the thing
that I worked my entire life for is just
about to be taken away from me. And it's
through no choice of my own. And you
I've worked very hard for a long time to
make myself into someone that I'm proud
of and my better self slipping through
my fingers through no no action of my
own. And again, it feels like a like a
What would you say to the guy who
looks at the inner child work, the
mother wound, the
past patterns that haven't yet been
dealt with, the accumulation of sort of
psychological discomfort like that? Uh,
and say I think that's sort of woo
[ __ ] dude. Like that that doesn't
resonate with me. I understand that if
you break an arm, you need to put it in
a cast, but this is just a question of
overcoming suffering. It's noble to do
that. It's uh like the sort of life that
I want to live is someone who is stoic,
who does like just get on with stuff.
This Yeah, maybe I've hit some sort of a
wall. Maybe I'm sort of broken in pieces
on the ground. But the answer to that is
to just like David Gogins it and stay
hard as opposed to echart tole it and
like remind myself that I'm enough already.
already.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I do think that it's
a it's a bit of both. You know, I do
think that
part of the challenge that a lot of men
have with therapy and therapy culture is
that it's become hyper feminized. And so
I think when men look at that often
times it's like it doesn't resonate with
feels too woo woo. It feels too sort of
like soft skills. Um, but I think it
really is about a quest of knowing thyself.
thyself.
And you know, for
for every man, they're going to have a
journey and an inflection point where
they have to decide, am I going to learn
about who I am through trial and error
and external experiences, or am I going
to put on this, you know, the
psychological scuba diving mask and and
go in
>> and actually see who the [ __ ] I am? And
I think it's easier for men to say,
"I'll just go out in the world, right?
I'll just go build some shit." Because
the truth is that the scariest place to
be is inside of yourself. That's the
truth. Most men know that, you know,
barring some extreme situations and war
zones and stuff like that. But for the
majority of men, for a lot of the men
that I've worked with, I've worked with
Navy Seals, I've worked with executives,
I've worked with artists and athletes.
And every single man that I've ever
worked with, the most terrifying thing
for them is the truth of who they are
because there's parts of them that they
do not understand and that's scary.
There's parts of themselves that are out
of control and that's terrifying. And so
I think for
what I would say to those men is it
sounds like you're not really willing to
get in the arena with yourself. Period.
And you can find a medium that works for
you, right? Gogggins found a medium that
seems to work for him, which is that's
not my medium, right? I don't want to
get up at 5 a.m. or 4:00 a.m. every
single day and and run until my knees
are grinding bones against each other.
This just not it for me. Um, I want to
push myself physically for sure and I
want to build things and push myself
from an entrepreneurial standpoint for
sure. But there is something to be said
for the courage and the bravery that it
takes to go in to who you actually are
as a human being and start to discover
the unsavory parts of yourself. You
know, Jung had this great saying that
that the the real work of a man is the
real work of men is to discover their
own shadow. And if they can do that,
they have done something meaningful for
the world. And what he meant by that was
if you don't understand your own
maladaptive behaviors, your own sabotage
mechanisms, if you don't understand how
you are harming other people, then you
are you're essentially passing on harm
out into the world onto other people
inadvertently to your kids or your
family members or your friends. And
that's not really what I don't know how
else to say it, but it's like that's not
really where men find a sense of meaning
and purpose. Like in many ways, the
archetypes of great kings and great men,
they are the men that are servants to
others. And how they go about doing that
is by deeply understanding who they are.
And so I think for a lot of men when I
hear that, I'm like, you're scared to
know who you really are. You're actually
just afraid. And that's okay, but don't
[ __ ] lie to me that you're just not
afraid of who you actually are. Because
so many times I've sat with men and I'll
say, "Close your eyes." And the the
challenge that that man will have, he'll
be a killer in the boardroom. He will be
a killer on the football field. And I'll
say, "Sit down. Close your eyes. Take a
breath. Tell me what's happening inside
of you." An immediate confrontation. So
we as men are sculpted through
confrontation. Masculinity in some ways
requires confrontation. And I think
change requires confrontation. Any type
of psychological change requires
confrontation. I think the challenge is
that some men are afraid of the
confrontation with themselves. What are
your thoughts on that?
>> I think it's superbly accurate. I think
it makes for a very interesting
redefinition of the word bravery,
especially for men. Uh that emotionality,
emotionality,
uh tapping into yourself, being in touch
with who you really are, uh is seen as a
kind of weakness. And yet so much of
that that I see among guys is like a
sex-based gaslighting. >> Um
>> Um
>> I think I think it's I think that's one
of the things that's made you very
successful. It's it's those little
snips. Where did it even come from,
Chris? Sex based gaslighting.
>> Try and tell me it doesn't fit, though.
>> It 100% great. It's great.
>> It is because you're scared of what's
inside of you
>> as a man. You're terrified of looking
inside of yourself. You're terrified of
being in touch with your emotions.
You're terrified of your heart.
Don't pretend like you're not. And don't
pretend like the guys who are prepared
to face it are somehow lesser.
>> Right. Right. It's like I, you know, I
do uh martial arts. I do Muay Thai a
couple times a week. I absolutely love
it. I love knowing that I can like, you
know, kick some dude in the side of the
head that's like six, you know, 6'2. Uh,
but I also am not afraid of how I'm
feeling. And I do think that I think
this is what I was talking about before,
which is that we've become so
one-dimensional. We've overindexed on
like one specific thing. And that hasn't
been that hasn't been the truth for men
throughout human history. I mean, when
you look at when you look at men from
different walks of life and you know,
like the the Spartans, right? They do
hand-to-h hand combat, sword training,
fighting in groups, and then in the
afternoon they would learn how to write
poetry and dance and play music,
>> you know. So, it's it's always been a
part of of our development as men. It's
just recently in the last 100 plus years
that we've sort of condensed men down
into this one dimension. And it's great
if you want to pop out factory workers.
It's great if you want to produce armies
of people, armies of men that their sole
job for 10 hours a day is to put a
[ __ ] handle on an ice cream bucket.
You know, it's like you don't want a
human being that's thinking about how do
I feel about doing this.
>> You don't want that, right? Because
that's not useful because then that
person's not going to be useful. So
again, I think we're we're entering into
this territory. And I think this is what
is causing a lot of part of what's
causing a lot of the challenges in
modern dating is that women have become
much broader in the sense that, you
know, they still have network, they
still have community, but they've
learned how to compete with men. And I
think that largely we as men have not
adapted and figured out how to compete
with women. I think that we are terrible
at competing with women because women
compete far different. They compete,
they compete way differently than we do
as men. We as men, we compete through
competition, through competency. It's
like, I'm going to outwork you. I'm
going to be more competent than you. I'm
going to be more capable than you. I'm
going to figure out the systems and get
better at it than you.
>> And women have figured out how to do
that as well. But they also have this
whole other skill set of emotional
intelligence, of being able to create
network, of being able to social
socialize and along with that character
assassinate, right? Like and take you
out in ways that that we just don't you
didn't even see coming.
>> You didn't even see coming. And all of a
sudden, you're like, "Wait, why is Becky
from HR pulling me in and like
reprimanding me?" Like, "What the hell
just happened?" Uh, and so I think
that's very intimidating for some men.
And I think it's very confusing
>> because we've kind of been sold this
bill of goods that if you just
prioritize competency and capability,
>> then you should rise through the ladder
of culture and society and you should be
able to be successful with women. And I
think that that is really in jeopardy
right now. I think there's this big kind
of tug-of-war for whether or not that's
going to be true or not. And you still
have men that are outliers that that is
true. that because they're so
successful, because they're they have
high status and yada yada yada, that
that still works. But I think for the
average guy, that's becoming harder and harder.
harder.
>> Have you seen the new stats? You know,
hypergamy, the word hypergamy favorite y
of the the romantic pill.
>> Um I call the the red pill the romantic
pill now.
>> That's great. That's great. I like that.
>> The romantic pill cuz everyone that's in
the red pill is a romantic. Everybody,
every single guy that's in the red pill
is a romantic. Some have failed, some
are successful. Um but fundamentally
they want to relationships they want to
find and be loved by a woman. Yeah,
>> it's the romantic bill.
>> That's great. >> Um
>> Um
hypergamy. Uh the bottom two quintiles
uh of men in terms of earning and the
top quintile in terms of women for
earning have the female as the primary
bread winner in the household. Now
>> that's in the US.
>> Yeah. So uh the bottom 40% of guys who
earn are dating up socioeconomically and
the top 20% of women earners are dating
down socioeconomically. So that is
getting squeezed a lot. And how long
have I been [ __ ] screaming about this
tall girl problem thing where again
another great meme? Um if women are
socioeconomically successful soon enough
they're going to stand on the top of
their own competence hierarchy, look
across and find very few men. And the
men that are there have a wealth of
opportunity, so they're going to use and
discard women. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, so yeah, we we are at this
interesting tug of war, but I think
>> it's not really even a tug anymore. It's
like it's happened. It's happened and
it's happening.
>> We're we're fully in it.
>> Correct. Yeah. And we're just trying to
sort of pick up the pieces. And for
women, what it's felt like uh
objectively is a lot of gain. Lots of
gains. Right. Uh I've now got degrees.
there's more women getting like I think
it's creeping up into masters and
doctorate degrees now as well. So, it's
not just that they're getting into
undergrad. Um, more degrees, they earn
more than guys up to the age of 30, 31.
Now, that's continuing to creep up as
well. And you go, that just seems like a
boon. Now, there are prices that women
are going to pay. And those are going to
be ones that are much harder to quantify
quality of life. Eight out of 10 women
that don't have kids and breach their
reproductive window don't say that they
didn't intend to not have children. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So, uh, or say that they didn't intend
to not have children. Sorry.
What this means is the prices that women
and like uh the the feminism problem or
the femininity problem opposed to the
masculinity problem uh are going to be
felt later further down the line and
they're going to be more subtle and
they're going to be much more
psychological. Um or at least much more
hidden I think. Uh but objectively
guys are already in it. >> Yeah,
>> Yeah,
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wisdom. Yeah, we're we're in it. I mean,
the the the decline of men is
staggering. You know, when you look at
the stats and the data of, you know,
there's less men going to college than
ever before. You by 2030, you're going
to have two women graduating with
degrees for every one man, right? And
when you look at the women that graduate
from college, they statistically want
men with college degrees. They want to
date men with college degrees, right?
So, we're we're creating a a population
of men that a lot of women don't that's
they say they don't necessarily want to
date on paper, right? So you have less
men going to college, you have less men
in the workforce. I mean, there's
there's a huge amount of men, something
like six or seven million American men
are not in the workforce right now. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So, you have this massive uh exodus from
the workforce. You have more young men
under 30 living at home than ever before.
before.
>> You have more young men not dating,
right? It's like I feel like Scott
Gallery right now just I can hear Scott
just like listing off the the stats,
right? It's like, you know, 40% of men
under the age of 30 haven't approached a
woman in the last year and haven't had
sex with a woman in the last year. And
so I I think that when you look socially
and economically, young men really are
in decline. And I think the problem with
that is that when we go to talk about
young men, men men's problems and how we
can alter society or create social
programs for men to actually support
them, it all hell breaks loose. You
know, it just it just turns into a kind
of um you know, missry fest. It's like
man hate just becomes very apparent when
you start to talk about men's problems
and men's issues. But
>> it feels like it's taking resources away
from some other more deserving group.
That's why it's a zero sum view of
empathy and resources.
>> Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And I I think that
hierarchies have just shifted, right?
And so there's the the power
distribution is not going towards men
anymore. And I think that that is very
hard for a lot of people to come to
terms with. I think it's also
detrimental for our society and our
culture. And I do think that young men
have I think they have a hard time. I
think that as a culture, we've forgotten
how hard it is to to take a young boy
and turn him into a man and to get him
through that period of going through
puberty, having testosterone, wanting to
basically like, you know, fight [ __ ]
feed, crash out entirely, uh, and and
get him into manhood in a functional
way. And so I think we we almost have
like a type of amnesia with how hard it
is to turn a young boy into a man. I
think it's I think it's very very
challenging. And so and then when we
look at the social programs for young
men uh and boys, they're few and far
between, right? So you have young boys
that don't have father figures at home.
You know, one in four kids in America
don't have a father figure in the
household. You you have young boys that
going to go into an education system
that is female dominated. So they're not
going to have role models at home, not
going to have role models in the school
system. If they go through a therapeutic
vein because they're having problems,
that's dominated by women as well. And
so there's a kind of vacancy. There's
like a male role model vacancy. And for
a lot of young boys, there's that what
they're looking for is a type of
transmission from men around how do I
get through this process? M
>> how do I go from being this boy or being
this adolescence into being somebody who
can regulate, who can deal with the
intensity of his anger, who can deal
with, you know, the fear of the
rejection of talking to a woman in a
coffee shop or at the grocery store.
>> And so I think that that absence is is
really crushing for a lot of young men.
And then I think when you couple that
with um
with the parenting style that we've gone
through in the last couple decades,
which is like the helicopter parent has
completely debilitated a lot of young
men. The the there's two simple things
that the parenting data that basically
like shows when it comes to raising a
healthy child, whether it's a boy or a
girl, is that you need high standards
and high support. You need those two
things. You need really good solid
standards of here's what I expect from
you. I want to help you develop. I want
you to develop competency in these
different areas. And then high support.
I'm also going to help you to do those
things. What a lot of young boys grow up
with is extremely high standards with
very little support. Right? It's like, I
expect you to get the high grades. I
expect you to be exceptional at hockey
or lacrosse or basketball, whatever it
is, but I'm not actually going to teach
you how to do those things. I'm not
going to support you to do that. M
>> or in the last couple decades, we've had
the inverse, right? Where it's been
like, "It's okay, honey. You got 10th
place. It's all right. No worries. No
standards, no expectations, no nothing."
And for that young man, he's like,
>> "Well, [ __ ] Is this it then? Am I just
supposed to, okay, I guess I'll just
play video games and jerk off watching
Pornhub, you know, like
>> nobody expects anything from me? And
culture is telling me that I'm the
problem, so I'm just going to check
out." So, I think that you have this
intersection of problems that are
creating a [ __ ] storm for young men.
>> What are some of the traits of an
>> Well, first I think you need to have the
ability to regulate your own nervous
system. So, you need to have some
level of competency over your own
emotional awareness. You need to have an
understanding of what's happening inside
of you. If you don't know or you're not
able to identify what's happening inside
of yourself emotionally when you're
angry, when you feel ashamed, when you
feel anxious, when you feel sad, when
you feel embarrassed, if you don't if
you can't differentiate between those
things or identify them and then be able
to regulate yourself through them so
that you don't lash out and get reactive
and get defensive all the time or, you
know, you you get rejected for a phone
number at the coffee shop or whatever
and you you dissolve into a puddle. of
like, "Oh my god, I'm such a piece of
shit." Which I understand. I've been
there. I actually have been there. You
know, I like was that guy when I was a
teenager. Uh rejection was brutal. But
if you if you aren't able to understand
what's happening inside of you and move
yourself through it, it's going to be
very very challenging to do that for
anybody else. So that's kind of like the
first place, the first step. Um, and
then secondly, I think you need to have
the capacity to draw out emotional
content. And this is a this is a skill
set that far few men learn. I think what
we learn as men is get the get the
content logistically. Get the logistical
content like what happened, when did it
happen, um what did it look like, you
know, like we get all those details, but
what we don't ask is what was that
actually like for you? you know, what
was it like for you when your boss was
pissed off or when you [ __ ] up the
presentation? What h what was that like
for you? What happened inside of you?
And so that's another skill set that I
think a lot of young men need is to be
able to draw out emotional content. Tell
me what that was like. What happened?
How did you feel in that moment, you
know, when when she said that, when he
did that? What was that like? And those
simple things are going to create a
connection, a bridge for the other
person to say, "Oh, this this person is
interested in how I'm feeling." And so I
think for a lot of men, just showing I
have interest in what's happening inside
of you
>> is also the next step. And then
>> being to respond and not react. A lot of
the times we personalize the [ __ ] out of
especially women's uh the women that
we're dating. Um but we we personalize
what other people are saying. And so you
might have your girlfriend or your wife
talking about something and you know
she's talking about how she was
disappointed in her mom or some argument
with with you and all of a sudden it's
like well did I do something wrong and
how could I have done that better and
what's wrong with me? And so a lot of
men collapse in to a type of
defensiveness or reactivity to go on the
attack to character assassinate to, you
know, sort of just defend themselves in
that moment. And so we need to be able
to regulate and then respond versus just
reacting from whatever emotion comes up
inside of us when somebody else is
talking. And sometimes that means that
we have to be able to hear
what somebody is saying to us and about
us without becoming defensive, without
becoming reactive.
>> How do you do that?
>> Your breath is a big part of it. Like I
think this is just a very simple thing
like your breath is a huge piece of
regulating your nervous system. And so,
you know, for a lot of guys that I work
with, when they there's this moment,
Victor Frankl has this beautiful phrase,
which is between stimulus and response,
there's a pause, and we have to be able
to feel that pause. So, for a lot of
guys, as soon as they hear hard content,
you know, it's like you forgot something
and your partner's upset and she's like,
"How could you have forgotten to do
that? I asked you. I texted you." And
all of a sudden, the shame and the guilt
and the, you know, the heaviness like,
"Fuck. Oh, [ __ ] I [ __ ] up." or like
the defensiveness that happens. Being
able to literally take some breaths so
that the emotional intensity and the
charge that has happened inside of you
can subside a little bit instead of
immediately reacting from that place.
What most of us do as men is immediately
react from that place.
>> So, we're reacting from the shame. We're
reacting from the anger. We're reacting
from the defensiveness and the
embarrassment. And so what I teach a lot
of men is just like take three breaths
before you respond. I know it sounds
super simple and super it's like so
simple that it sounds dumb, but if you
can just start to interrupt the pattern
of reacting immediately from an emotion,
you can create a new pathway of being
able to take some breaths so that you
can quote unquote downregulate your
system or at the very least you can get
some awareness of what is happening
inside of me. So take a breath,
understand what's happening inside of
yourself and then you can either choose
to set that aside or you can voice it,
right? It's like, "Oh, I hear you and I
feel really defensive, so I'm going to
pause, you know, or I get what you're
saying and you're right. I totally
forgot to do that. I'll take care of
it." So you you don't personalize what's
happening and you're able to actually
stay with your experience.
The mindfulness gap is what my
meditation teacher referred to it as.
Yes. Like space. Uh I certainly know the
periods in my life where I've had that
the most. There's a few instance that
were really really funny where somebody
um got very agitated. Like this guy in a
Nando I was in in the UK. I was with my
friends. I always use this as an
example. It's so funny. And this guy
sort of
>> always Nando
>> had him. I know. I know. Scum. Uh, I'm
very working class, which is why Nando
for me is a a huge treat. Um,
I walked past this table, he kicked off
at me because he thought that I got too
close. And this was like deep, deep,
deep meditation mode me. Like, this was
the peak monk mode, 3-hour morning
routine, like gratitude. This is when I
was doing, I think, 1,000 days sober and
500 days without caffeine at the same time.
time.
The alcohol thing is great. the caffing
thing's [ __ ] miserable and pointless.
Um, but was a a good lesson to learn.
Anyway, this guy kicks off and because
I've I don't know, he was obviously
having a bad day. Like, he was obviously
on the edge. He was having a bad day.
And I remember like watching this thing
unfold. And I just turned around and
said, "Oh."
And kept on walking. And he'd made this
big sort of explosion. Oh, let me give
you this. You're going to [ __ ] love
this. You got to Joe Hudson yet? Have I
got you into Joe?
>> Art of accomplishment guy. He stinks of
you. So he taught me this idea called
veagal authority. >> Uhhuh.
>> Uhhuh.
>> You already know what it means, right?
Like you're in a room, somebody's
nervous system is disregulated,
somebody's is regulated. Which way does
the rest of the room go? And which way
do you go? That guy there, I held the
veagal authority. Now, I'm not sure if
he was able to take my regulation and go
back to his family and be like, I don't
think I should have blown up that much.
That guy just walked near my table.
Yeah, maybe not. But
>> but the the the idea that I am so
regulated that not only can I keep
myself where I want to be while you are
doing something else,
>> but also I maybe have so much surplus
that you can kind of borrow from it.
Like my cup is so full that the saucer
that overflows around it can fill yours up.
up. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> And um yeah, when I think about
emotional safety, that regulation piece
is a a huge part. I guess a lot of guys
will worry of fear.
How do I build emotional range without
losing my grounding or my strength or my
attractiveness, my ad uh admiration from
my partner and from people around me.
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>> Well, I think I think that that's when you
you
what I'm really talking about is a type
of emotional containment, but it's
containment not through suppression.
It's not by cutting yourself off from
what you feel. It's not about, you know,
beheading your emotions or or numbing
yourself out from them. It's actually by
gaining a mastery through deeply
understanding and feeling what you're
feeling in any given moment to the
degree that they do not control you. For
the average man, what happens is that
they feel something and they become
something. They feel anger and they
become angry. They feel shame and
they're shameful, right? And so the
emotion comes up and then they become
that emotion and then they respond from
that emotion. They react from that
emotion versus, oh, there's that
emotion. I I know that I'm feeling that
emotion and I can feel that emotion, but
I can still have enough space from that
emotion that I can still respond in a
grounded way. And
this this type of emotional containment,
this type of emotional regulation is
really what
when you look at people like Marcus
Aurelius, when you look at um really
great leaders, when you look at Aragon,
I did this video about, you know, the
masculinity of Aragorn from Lord of the
Rings, which is super [ __ ] nerdy, but
I'm kind of a nerd, so I thought I would
do it. It's it's becoming a a man who is
capable of dealing with the intensity
and the charge within himself so that he
can learn to deal with the intensity and
the charge of others. That is a gift,
right? That is a gift that we as men can
provide the world, can provide our
children, can provide our friends, can
provide our family, the women in our
life. And for a lot of women, that is
what they're saying when they say, "I
want safety. I want emotional
attunement." Now, it's not your job to
make all women safe. That's kind of
impossible. It's not your job to do
that. It's also not your job to, you
know, help the woman that you're dating
feel better all the time. That's people
pleasing and codependency and all that
other type of stuff. But what you can
bring is containment. And sometimes that
containment can look different ways. It
can be, you know, your partner, your
girlfriend, or your wife saying
something that's crossing a line that's
like a little bit of a jab or an edge
and you saying, "I didn't like that.
Don't do that again. I love you. I don't
like when you talk to me like that." And
it's it's not a threat. It's not angry.
You're not blowing up. Oh, why are you
[ __ ] do this to me all the time? Oh,
I hate when you talk to me like that.
It's just clear, grounded boundaries.
And but you need to have emotional
connection to be able to attune to the
information of oh that wasn't okay.
That pissed me off.
>> So good.
>> That made me feel embarrassed. That made
me feel shame. And so emotions are just
data. They're just data. And we as men,
the I think the men that become the real
leaders of the future, I think the men
that become really successful in the
future, whether it's with women or in
the business world, are going to be men
that are exceptionally emotionally
attuned, that are able to read the data
that's happening inside of them and
not be numbed out or completely disconnected,
disconnected,
but be able to understand that there's a
very real intensity inside of them. And
the interesting thing is that when you
look at something like the the um
neurology and the data around emotions
between men and women, it's it's
generally that women will feel more
emotions um more often and men will feel
singular emotions more intensely.
And so men generally will stay in an
emotion for a longer period of time and
they'll stay in an intensity of that
emotion. This is why you have guys that
are like, you know, they'll stay in
their depression for ages and ages and
ages, right? They'll stay in their
anxiety or their anger. They'll stay
angry and frustrated, you know, days on
end and they're holding grudges and
they're not talking to anybody for days
and they're cutting people off, they're
just in that intensity of that emotions.
So I think the more that we as men can
learn how to deal with the charge inside
of ourselves through the breath through
awareness of like what is actually
happening inside of me without saying
something's [ __ ] wrong with me cuz I
have emotions or you know I'm like it's
emotional competency. That's what it
really is. It's being able to have
emotional competency
>> and say like oh you know I I felt angry
when you said that. You know I didn't I
didn't like when you did that. that
wasn't okay with me or I really loved
when you, you know, did X, Y, and Z. And
that type of emotional attunement to
ourselves and then to others is like a
superpower for men. And
I think that for a lot of women, it's
it's really what they're asking for. And
I'm not saying that we as men should do
that to give them that. I think that we
should do that because it allows us a certain level of meaning and depth that
certain level of meaning and depth that I think most men are deeply craving, you
I think most men are deeply craving, you know, deeply craving. And how are you
know, deeply craving. And how are you supposed to walk through life
supposed to walk through life with a sense of purpose and meaning if
with a sense of purpose and meaning if you're disconnected from the data of
you're disconnected from the data of your own emotions? It's so hard. And we
your own emotions? It's so hard. And we need those things to set boundaries, to
need those things to set boundaries, to know when things are okay and not okay.
know when things are okay and not okay. We need those things for relationships
We need those things for relationships and trust and safety.
and trust and safety. >> But we also need those things for
>> But we also need those things for leadership. Like the the men that are
leadership. Like the the men that are going to be leaders of the future will
going to be leaders of the future will have an exceptional level of emotional
have an exceptional level of emotional literacy and they will have a very high
literacy and they will have a very high capacity to regulate their nervous
capacity to regulate their nervous system. When you look at today's culture
system. When you look at today's culture and society, people are [ __ ] their
and society, people are [ __ ] their nervous systems are [ __ ] And so who
nervous systems are [ __ ] And so who are people turning to? They're turning
are people turning to? They're turning to people who have said, "I'm able to
to people who have said, "I'm able to navigate the [ __ ] storm of the chaos of
navigate the [ __ ] storm of the chaos of our times. The chaos of our social media
our times. The chaos of our social media and our culture and the uncertainty of
and our culture and the uncertainty of whether AI is going to destroy us all
whether AI is going to destroy us all and climate's going to kill everything."
and climate's going to kill everything." And most people's nervous systems are so
And most people's nervous systems are so hijacked. And so if you're a man who's
hijacked. And so if you're a man who's able to regulate your nervous system in
able to regulate your nervous system in your relationship and in a work setting
your relationship and in a work setting in a genuine meaningful way without
in a genuine meaningful way without needing to numb yourself out constantly
needing to numb yourself out constantly and chronically through booze or weed or
and chronically through booze or weed or porn or whatever it is and you can do it
porn or whatever it is and you can do it in a genuine way that is aligned with
in a genuine way that is aligned with your values, you're going to be
your values, you're going to be unstoppable. You're going to be
unstoppable. You're going to be unstoppable because you will be
unstoppable because you will be signaling to women, I have done
signaling to women, I have done something that most men haven't done.
something that most men haven't done. Because most women know that for the
Because most women know that for the majority of men, it's extremely hard to
majority of men, it's extremely hard to put on the scuba diving mask and go
put on the scuba diving mask and go inside and confront the dragon within,
inside and confront the dragon within, the beast inside of ourselves. Most
the beast inside of ourselves. Most women know that that's something that we
women know that that's something that we as men are afraid of. And so women are
as men are afraid of. And so women are largely in our culture, I think, saying,
largely in our culture, I think, saying, "I really am craving a man that has met
"I really am craving a man that has met himself, that's confronted himself,
himself, that's confronted himself, that's met his own demons and his own
that's met his own demons and his own darkness and knows his violence and
darkness and knows his violence and knows what makes him dangerous." That
knows what makes him dangerous." That is, I think, what men are really being
is, I think, what men are really being asked to do. And I feel bad for a lot of
asked to do. And I feel bad for a lot of the young men because so many of them
the young men because so many of them are either finding the sort of like
are either finding the sort of like false gods of masculinity or there's
false gods of masculinity or there's just a vacancy entirely,
just a vacancy entirely, >> you know, there's just a vacancy.
>> you know, there's just a vacancy. >> The choice is between extreme and void.
>> The choice is between extreme and void. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. And you're going to take extreme
>> Yeah. And you're going to take extreme every single time.
every single time. >> Yeah. because it's better to be uh given
>> Yeah. because it's better to be uh given some advice that sounds right but may
some advice that sounds right but may not be than no advice at all because
not be than no advice at all because that sounds like that feels like being
that sounds like that feels like being lost.
lost. >> It's it's my biggest problem with
>> It's it's my biggest problem with progressive liberal
progressive liberal um talking points around masculinity and
um talking points around masculinity and men is that there's there's no target.
men is that there's there's no target. There's no aim. It's a it's a continuous
There's no aim. It's a it's a continuous laundry list of the things that you
laundry list of the things that you should not do. So there's no actual aim
should not do. So there's no actual aim or definition. There's there's no um
or definition. There's there's no um trajectory that you can point yourself
trajectory that you can point yourself towards and say I want to become that. I
towards and say I want to become that. I want to move in that direction. That is
want to move in that direction. That is something that I can ascend towards.
something that I can ascend towards. >> The uh veagal decapitation that you were
>> The uh veagal decapitation that you were talking about that like you know person
talking about that like you know person who only lives above the neck.
who only lives above the neck. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Um I'm going to keep going. I've had my
>> Um I'm going to keep going. I've had my tonic today dude. Yeah, I'm going to
tonic today dude. Yeah, I'm going to keep
keep >> I'm going to start I'm going to start
>> I'm going to start I'm going to start taking those.
taking those. >> I'm going to keep naming [ __ ] that you
>> I'm going to keep naming [ __ ] that you came up with. Um Hey, do you want one
came up with. Um Hey, do you want one for your the turning or whatever it was?
for your the turning or whatever it was? The narrow path the turning thing.
The narrow path the turning thing. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Manopause.
>> Manopause. >> Oh, manopause. That's good.
>> Oh, manopause. That's good. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Works on many levels.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Works on many levels. >> That's true.
>> That's true. >> Um
>> Um the thing that comes to mind and what
the thing that comes to mind and what I'm particularly fascinated about is
I'm particularly fascinated about is almost objection handling uh some of the
almost objection handling uh some of the stuff that comes up that will come up
stuff that comes up that will come up for guys that I've seen Yeah. online a
for guys that I've seen Yeah. online a lot. Um I think one of the first
lot. Um I think one of the first objections earlier on is well that toxic
objections earlier on is well that toxic fuel has helped me to be successful.
fuel has helped me to be successful. Also I turned that toxic I alchemized
Also I turned that toxic I alchemized that bad thing into something good. Is
that bad thing into something good. Is that not something I should be proud of?
that not something I should be proud of? Um another element might be in order for
Um another element might be in order for me to delve into this I feel like my
me to delve into this I feel like my real world performance is going to dip
real world performance is going to dip and it very well may do. Uh Tiger Woods
and it very well may do. Uh Tiger Woods had this issue with his swing that he
had this issue with his swing that he developed as a young golfer that he
developed as a young golfer that he needed to purposefully go back and fix.
needed to purposefully go back and fix. So he needed to adjust his hand
So he needed to adjust his hand position, adjust his back swing because
position, adjust his back swing because there was there's too many variables in
there was there's too many variables in that. Why you grinning?
that. Why you grinning? >> You said Tiger WS had a problem that was
>> You said Tiger WS had a problem that was like with Swedish bikini models.
like with Swedish bikini models. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He had many problems.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He had many problems. This is before that. This is before
This is before that. This is before that. This was in the confines of his
that. This was in the confines of his sport. Um he had to uh basically unlearn
sport. Um he had to uh basically unlearn which is 100 times harder than learning.
which is 100 times harder than learning. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Uh he had to unlearn and then relearn in
>> Uh he had to unlearn and then relearn in order to get to the next level. But that
order to get to the next level. But that required a false peak. He got to as good
required a false peak. He got to as good as he was going to be with this. He had
as he was going to be with this. He had to go back and then come back up. So I
to go back and then come back up. So I think even if you do go well look you
think even if you do go well look you might real world effectiveness might be
might real world effectiveness might be reduced if you crack yourself open in
reduced if you crack yourself open in this sort of a way
this sort of a way >> for a period of time. Yes.
>> for a period of time. Yes. >> Correct. Yeah. And in my experience
>> Correct. Yeah. And in my experience that's true. That's true. I just need to
that's true. That's true. I just need to put it out there. I know that you said
put it out there. I know that you said you know you can show up in an
you know you can show up in an openhearted way in a blah blah blah.
openhearted way in a blah blah blah. >> The first couple of years of trying to
>> The first couple of years of trying to feel feelings [ __ ] blow. Dude, I I'm
feel feelings [ __ ] blow. Dude, I I'm just going to be upfront about it.
just going to be upfront about it. >> I get it. I get it. But another one of
>> I get it. I get it. But another one of the objections is uh the world to me
the objections is uh the world to me seems to be split largely into two
seems to be split largely into two groups. Uh people who know that they
groups. Uh people who know that they should be feeling emotions and either
should be feeling emotions and either are or are not and people who just don't
are or are not and people who just don't feel emotions that deeply or are so good
feel emotions that deeply or are so good at repressing them that functionally
at repressing them that functionally it's the same thing.
it's the same thing. >> And these two groups constantly argue
>> And these two groups constantly argue between each other. Um, the second
between each other. Um, the second group, the group that doesn't
group, the group that doesn't necessarily feel emotions quite so
necessarily feel emotions quite so deeply, uh, the Tim Kennedys of the
deeply, uh, the Tim Kennedys of the world for instance, right? I actually
world for instance, right? I actually think that David Gogggins is a bad
think that David Gogggins is a bad example of this because I think he does
example of this because I think he does feel things very deeply, which is what's
feel things very deeply, which is what's caused him to go and do something so
caused him to go and do something so extreme as a a mechanism for him to be
extreme as a a mechanism for him to be able to alchemize it.
able to alchemize it. >> Um, Tim Kendi would be an example of
>> Um, Tim Kendi would be an example of somebody who,
somebody who, >> at least in my experience, slightly less
>> at least in my experience, slightly less so. If you're a a sniper, Green Beret,
so. If you're a a sniper, Green Beret, all that stuff, um, that tends to not be
all that stuff, um, that tends to not be your archetype. um for them when they
your archetype. um for them when they start to talk about well the opening up
start to talk about well the opening up of emotions I don't even know what
of emotions I don't even know what you're talking about tapping into inner
you're talking about tapping into inner child wounds doing the shadow work
child wounds doing the shadow work alchemy things falling apart the phoenix
alchemy things falling apart the phoenix all this stuff I just I it doesn't
all this stuff I just I it doesn't resonate that much with me and also on
resonate that much with me and also on the female side of this are the sort of
the female side of this are the sort of women who would see a man opening up in
women who would see a man opening up in that way and think less of him who would
that way and think less of him who would see a man that wants to try and have a
see a man that wants to try and have a deeply connected heartfelt emotionally
she's upset, he's done something, it's like catastrophic or that man, she's
like catastrophic or that man, she's usually on a pedestal. So, you have this
usually on a pedestal. So, you have this like one up, one down type of dynamic
like one up, one down type of dynamic where she's the, you know,
where she's the, you know, overfunctioning and he's the chronic
overfunctioning and he's the chronic underfunctioner, right? Everything
underfunctioner, right? Everything that's wrong in the relationship is
that's wrong in the relationship is because of him and, you know, he's
because of him and, you know, he's always doing something wrong.
always doing something wrong. >> This is his perspective.
>> This is his perspective. >> That's his perspective, right? It might
>> That's his perspective, right? It might not be her perspective.
not be her perspective. >> And slowly, he'll start to withhold
>> And slowly, he'll start to withhold parts of himself. uh he'll withhold
parts of himself. uh he'll withhold maybe the more aggressive part of
maybe the more aggressive part of himself or he'll withhold his
himself or he'll withhold his boundaries. He'll withhold his wants and
boundaries. He'll withhold his wants and needs and desires. So he'll withhold all
needs and desires. So he'll withhold all these things. This is like classic
these things. This is like classic people pleasers and nice guys and
people pleasers and nice guys and they'll withhold all these parts, but
they'll withhold all these parts, but they'll also withhold those like primal
they'll also withhold those like primal sexual energy. So the ways that they
sexual energy. So the ways that they want to engage sexually with that woman,
want to engage sexually with that woman, they'll withhold those and then it has
they'll withhold those and then it has nowhere to go. And then they'll they'll
nowhere to go. And then they'll they'll find a [ __ ] right? They'll find an
find a [ __ ] right? They'll find an archetype of the [ __ ] whether it's
archetype of the [ __ ] whether it's through pornography and only fans girl,
through pornography and only fans girl, the porn that they're watching or, you
the porn that they're watching or, you know, somebody that they start to
know, somebody that they start to idolize online or somebody that they
idolize online or somebody that they actually find. And so I I see a lot of
actually find. And so I I see a lot of men that are unfaithful that have gone
men that are unfaithful that have gone through this cycle is that they've
through this cycle is that they've bifrocated their vision or they've
bifrocated their vision or they've separated out their their vision of the
separated out their their vision of the woman that they're with and they've
woman that they're with and they've taken parts of themselves that they
taken parts of themselves that they would normally want to bring into the
would normally want to bring into the relationship and either tried to kill
relationship and either tried to kill them off like, "Oh, that's not okay.
them off like, "Oh, that's not okay. That that primal way that I want to be
That that primal way that I want to be with that woman, I'm going to try and
with that woman, I'm going to try and kill that off." Mhm.
kill that off." Mhm. >> Uh or they they just have a different
>> Uh or they they just have a different place that they get that need met,
place that they get that need met, right? Porn, only fans, etc.
right? Porn, only fans, etc. >> How do guys combine the two?
>> How do guys combine the two? >> It's pretty uncomfortable. You have to
>> It's pretty uncomfortable. You have to start to bring those more usually primal
start to bring those more usually primal elements
elements um that you would bring to
um that you would bring to >> a one night stand.
>> a one night stand. >> Yeah. to a one night stand or you know
>> Yeah. to a one night stand or you know to a woman that like you weren't in love
to a woman that like you weren't in love with or you know uh or or even just the
with or you know uh or or even just the more primal elements of admitting that
more primal elements of admitting that you're disappointed or that you're upset
you're disappointed or that you're upset or that you're angry. So you have to
or that you're angry. So you have to start to take up some more territory.
start to take up some more territory. You have to start to have needs. You
You have to start to have needs. You have to have some desires. You have to
have to have some desires. You have to let those needs and those desires be
let those needs and those desires be known within the relationship and start
known within the relationship and start to say, you know what, I've never
to say, you know what, I've never actually told you what I want. I've
actually told you what I want. I've never actually told you what my
never actually told you what my expectations are. I've never actually
expectations are. I've never actually told you what it is that I desire, you
told you what it is that I desire, you know, in the bedroom. And so, I'm going
know, in the bedroom. And so, I'm going to start to expose some of these things
to start to expose some of these things and bring them forward. And you start to
and bring them forward. And you start to do that slowly and incrementally um and
do that slowly and incrementally um and consistently. And you start to bring
consistently. And you start to bring that more shadow oriented or primal self
that more shadow oriented or primal self back into the relationship. And it's can
back into the relationship. And it's can be challenging because what starts to
be challenging because what starts to happen is that that woman slowly comes
happen is that that woman slowly comes off the pedestal and your projections of
off the pedestal and your projections of the feminine start to you know get taken
the feminine start to you know get taken off of her
off of her >> because for a lot of men what happens is
>> because for a lot of men what happens is that they they project onto the women
that they they project onto the women the parts of themselves that they feel
the parts of themselves that they feel deficient in. Right? So she's so
deficient in. Right? So she's so compassionate. She's so loving and
compassionate. She's so loving and meanwhile inside of him he lacks
meanwhile inside of him he lacks self-compassion. He's not loving to
self-compassion. He's not loving to himself at all. He's, you know, ripping
himself at all. He's, you know, ripping himself a new [ __ ] every single time
himself a new [ __ ] every single time he [ __ ] up. So, we start to dismantle
he [ __ ] up. So, we start to dismantle this this pure perfect image of that
this this pure perfect image of that woman. And if the the funny thing is is
woman. And if the the funny thing is is that if that man stays with that woman
that if that man stays with that woman for long enough, stays with the Madonna
for long enough, stays with the Madonna for long enough, she will slowly turn
for long enough, she will slowly turn into Medusa.
into Medusa. it. Seriously, she'll slowly turn into
it. Seriously, she'll slowly turn into this embodiment of what he resents and
this embodiment of what he resents and what he hates and he'll kind of become
what he hates and he'll kind of become bitter and she'll become this archetype
bitter and she'll become this archetype of something that he um has disdain for
of something that he um has disdain for and contempt towards. And a lot of that
and contempt towards. And a lot of that is because he hasn't brought forward his
is because he hasn't brought forward his needs, wants, and desires, his
needs, wants, and desires, his expectations. So he starts to see her,
expectations. So he starts to see her, this Madonna, he starts to see her as
this Madonna, he starts to see her as the embodiment of everything that
the embodiment of everything that refuses to meet his needs when it's
refuses to meet his needs when it's actually him refusing to bring forward
actually him refusing to bring forward what he needs, wants, and desires.
what he needs, wants, and desires. >> Yeah. You haven't asked. Yeah.
>> Yeah. You haven't asked. Yeah. >> How can you expect this person to
>> How can you expect this person to deliver you? It's like it's [ __ ] Neil
deliver you? It's like it's [ __ ] Neil Straussy. It's always Neil Strauss.
Straussy. It's always Neil Strauss. Always, always, always, always. Unspoken
Always, always, always, always. Unspoken expectations are premeditated
expectations are premeditated resentments. It always is.
resentments. It always is. >> Yes. And uh it just completely captures
>> Yes. And uh it just completely captures the issue of poor communication. But
the issue of poor communication. But poor communication is just the end
poor communication is just the end result of well maybe you didn't have the
result of well maybe you didn't have the bravery to look at your emotions. Well
bravery to look at your emotions. Well maybe you're so busy that you don't have
maybe you're so busy that you don't have time to feel your emotions. Well maybe
time to feel your emotions. Well maybe you're so sedated that you don't have
you're so sedated that you don't have time you know like go back down the
time you know like go back down the stack to find where the genesis of this
stack to find where the genesis of this was. Uh so yeah when people talk about
was. Uh so yeah when people talk about you know good communication is
you know good communication is important. It's like, yeah, but you
important. It's like, yeah, but you don't fix that by just communicating
don't fix that by just communicating more because the communication needs to
more because the communication needs to say something. And where's the origin of
say something. And where's the origin of the thing that you're going to say?
the thing that you're going to say? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> It's down there.
>> It's down there. >> It's in there.
>> It's in there. >> It's down there.
>> It's down there. >> Yeah. And so, you have to, again,
>> Yeah. And so, you have to, again, there's no change without confrontation,
there's no change without confrontation, right? So, for a lot of men, they have
right? So, for a lot of men, they have to confront the truth that's inside of
to confront the truth that's inside of them. They have to confront, here's the
them. They have to confront, here's the need that I have. Here's the want that I
need that I have. Here's the want that I have. Here's the expectation or the
have. Here's the expectation or the desire that I have that I've been just
desire that I have that I've been just chronically withholding from the
chronically withholding from the relationship. and then to start to
relationship. and then to start to slowly bring that forward knowing that
slowly bring that forward knowing that it's going to alter the image that you
it's going to alter the image that you have of that woman.
have of that woman. >> What if
>> What if uh in doing that uh I I certainly see
uh in doing that uh I I certainly see stories from guys online about um I had
stories from guys online about um I had this girl on a pedestal. I learned about
this girl on a pedestal. I learned about her past and it was sort of an ick to
her past and it was sort of an ick to me. I sort of almost have a fear of this
me. I sort of almost have a fear of this Madonna being sullied into a [ __ ] by
Madonna being sullied into a [ __ ] by somebody that isn't me. It's a kind of
somebody that isn't me. It's a kind of fragility around that perspective or of
fragility around that perspective or of bringing this in and of maybe not seeing
bringing this in and of maybe not seeing her as the perfect embodiment, white as
her as the perfect embodiment, white as snow,
snow, managing the transition from Madonna to,
managing the transition from Madonna to, you know, amateur singer. Um,
you know, amateur singer. Um, how do guys deal with that that pivot
how do guys deal with that that pivot there?
there? It's going from being uh goddess to
It's going from being uh goddess to mortal might be another way to look at
mortal might be another way to look at it.
it. >> Yeah. I mean I I think part of it is
>> Yeah. I mean I I think part of it is for those men you are pedestaling that
for those men you are pedestaling that woman because you are used to being in a
woman because you are used to being in a subservient position with women.
subservient position with women. >> You're not used to being on equal
>> You're not used to being on equal ground. So, for a lot of these men,
ground. So, for a lot of these men, there's
there's >> if if you're emotionally uh uh if you
>> if if you're emotionally uh uh if you care, if you're emotionally intimate
care, if you're emotionally intimate with them, you're happy to be you're
with them, you're happy to be you're happy to be on the pedestal, but only if
happy to be on the pedestal, but only if you're going to discard them afterward.
you're going to discard them afterward. >> That's right. Yeah. So, what men will
>> That's right. Yeah. So, what men will what we'll often do, and I see this so
what we'll often do, and I see this so so often, it's it's wild, is that we'll
so often, it's it's wild, is that we'll toggle back and forth between this,
toggle back and forth between this, right? we'll have the the women that are
right? we'll have the the women that are like the one night stands or that you
like the one night stands or that you know that we're friends with benefits
know that we're friends with benefits with and there's no real emotional
with and there's no real emotional connection. There's no desire for a
connection. There's no desire for a relationship there. It's fun. It's
relationship there. It's fun. It's exciting. You can express whatever the
exciting. You can express whatever the hell you want sexually. There's like
hell you want sexually. There's like complete sexual freedom and then there's
complete sexual freedom and then there's the women that you fall in love with and
the women that you fall in love with and all of that shit's out the window,
all of that shit's out the window, right? And it's like there's a huge
right? And it's like there's a huge challenge which with bridging the gap
challenge which with bridging the gap and actually having a relationship with
and actually having a relationship with a woman where both of those things co
a woman where both of those things co coincide. And there's this very strange
coincide. And there's this very strange uh like inverse relationship between the
uh like inverse relationship between the more that you pedestal a woman, the less
more that you pedestal a woman, the less that you feel worthy of her. Right? It's
that you feel worthy of her. Right? It's like the saying like when when you
like the saying like when when you pedestal a woman, don't be surprised
pedestal a woman, don't be surprised when you find her looking down on you.
when you find her looking down on you. But that usually is because a a a man
But that usually is because a a a man has grown up as a young boy either
has grown up as a young boy either needing to idolize his mother or he
needing to idolize his mother or he created an image of the ideal mother
created an image of the ideal mother that did not exist in his life. That he
that did not exist in his life. That he had a mother who, you know, was an
had a mother who, you know, was an addict or she was abusive or, you know,
addict or she was abusive or, you know, she was cycling through men and she was
she was cycling through men and she was just unsafe or whatever it was, right?
just unsafe or whatever it was, right? And so he he had to create the image of
And so he he had to create the image of an ideal mother that he ultimately
an ideal mother that he ultimately needed. And then what happens is he
needed. And then what happens is he falls in love with a woman and he
falls in love with a woman and he projects that image of that ideal mother
projects that image of that ideal mother unintentionally onto her. And of course
unintentionally onto her. And of course you don't want to [ __ ] your mother,
you don't want to [ __ ] your mother, right? So So what ends up happening is
right? So So what ends up happening is there's a type of like impotency that
there's a type of like impotency that starts to show up
starts to show up >> in those types of relationships. And
>> in those types of relationships. And it's not true intimacy impotency in the
it's not true intimacy impotency in the sense that he, you know, can't get it up
sense that he, you know, can't get it up ever or whatever. But he's not bringing
ever or whatever. But he's not bringing his own potency, whether it's here's my
his own potency, whether it's here's my boundary or I'm upset with you or I
boundary or I'm upset with you or I didn't like that or that's not okay or
didn't like that or that's not okay or here's what I need, you know, here are
here's what I need, you know, here are my expectations in the relationship or
my expectations in the relationship or here's what I want to explore sexually
here's what I want to explore sexually in the bedroom. Those things get
in the bedroom. Those things get completely emitted and he finds himself
completely emitted and he finds himself in a more subservient relationship.
in a more subservient relationship. >> Such an interesting dynamic. One other
>> Such an interesting dynamic. One other one that causes that impotency that I
one that causes that impotency that I see a lot of guys talking about is
see a lot of guys talking about is navigating the transition from honeymoon
navigating the transition from honeymoon phase to from like passionate love to
phase to from like passionate love to companionate love. Yeah.
companionate love. Yeah. >> Uh and the sort of deceleration in drive
>> Uh and the sort of deceleration in drive sexually that comes from familiarity
sexually that comes from familiarity kind of knowing all of the tricks,
kind of knowing all of the tricks, >> complacency killer.
>> complacency killer. >> Okay. So, how do guys navigate the
>> Okay. So, how do guys navigate the 9-month hump, 18-month hump of going
9-month hump, 18-month hump of going from this girl's hot as [ __ ] and all I
from this girl's hot as [ __ ] and all I want to do is horrendous things to the
want to do is horrendous things to the lower half of her body. Uh, to now, I
lower half of her body. Uh, to now, I don't know, man. I'm a bit tired
don't know, man. I'm a bit tired tonight. Yeah.
tonight. Yeah. >> Like,
>> Like, couple of things. Um, the first thing is
couple of things. Um, the first thing is bringing what I call expectationless
bringing what I call expectationless desire back into your relationship. So,
desire back into your relationship. So, a lot of times when a relationship exits
a lot of times when a relationship exits that uh that honeymoon phase where it's
that uh that honeymoon phase where it's like hot and heavy and it's super
like hot and heavy and it's super intense and then you kind of get into a
intense and then you kind of get into a groove and complacency starts to set in
groove and complacency starts to set in and all of a sudden, you know, it's 7
and all of a sudden, you know, it's 7 8:00 at night, you both have your
8:00 at night, you both have your sweatpants on and the TV's on and you're
sweatpants on and the TV's on and you're just [ __ ] chilling out. That type of
just [ __ ] chilling out. That type of complacency really erodess sexual
complacency really erodess sexual intimacy and and polarity and charge. Um
intimacy and and polarity and charge. Um it over time over time because comfort
it over time over time because comfort comfort and safety it's like you do want
comfort and safety it's like you do want safety a lot of times when you you know
safety a lot of times when you you know when you want um sexual polarity there
when you want um sexual polarity there has to be some level of safety there.
has to be some level of safety there. But comfort over time can be a killer
But comfort over time can be a killer because you really fall into grooves
because you really fall into grooves that lead to complacency. So for a lot
that lead to complacency. So for a lot of men, what what I talk about is
of men, what what I talk about is bringing expectationless desire to the
bringing expectationless desire to the table, which means that you just start
table, which means that you just start to bring whenever you, you know, look at
to bring whenever you, you know, look at her and you feel that like little bit of
her and you feel that like little bit of excitement of like, oh, she looks really
excitement of like, oh, she looks really good today, or like we haven't had sex
good today, or like we haven't had sex in a while, or whatever, you bring that
in a while, or whatever, you bring that to her, whether it's through, you know,
to her, whether it's through, you know, a look, a touch, uh, a comment, and you
a look, a touch, uh, a comment, and you start to bring that to her without the
start to bring that to her without the expectation that it needs to lead to
expectation that it needs to lead to sex.
sex. What ends up happening when a lot of
What ends up happening when a lot of couples get into this complacency state
couples get into this complacency state where desire has completely dropped is
where desire has completely dropped is that men we stop uh we stop making those
that men we stop uh we stop making those comments. We stop initiating those types
comments. We stop initiating those types of pieces. We stop bringing this like
of pieces. We stop bringing this like I'm aroused by you or I desire you or
I'm aroused by you or I desire you or you know I find you exciting. And we
you know I find you exciting. And we also start to really fall back into
also start to really fall back into um this complacency place where uh where
um this complacency place where uh where maybe we want the other person to
maybe we want the other person to initiate or you know some resentment has
initiate or you know some resentment has started to build up or you know the the
started to build up or you know the the the the mask of who they were has
the the mask of who they were has started to fallen. uh and we see them
started to fallen. uh and we see them for, you know, see them in a different
for, you know, see them in a different way, but we stop bringing these like
way, but we stop bringing these like little pieces of excitement and desire
little pieces of excitement and desire into the relationship. And that simple
into the relationship. And that simple act of just bringing expectationless
act of just bringing expectationless desire so that you're not expecting sex
desire so that you're not expecting sex to happen right in that moment can
to happen right in that moment can really refuel things because when
really refuel things because when complacency sets in, what happens is it
complacency sets in, what happens is it pressurizes when sex is going to happen.
pressurizes when sex is going to happen. So slowly over time it's like it's been
So slowly over time it's like it's been 2 days, it's been 3 days, it's been 4
2 days, it's been 3 days, it's been 4 days. And then what happens for a lot of
days. And then what happens for a lot of guys is like, "Oh, when is this going to
guys is like, "Oh, when is this going to happen?" And they start to track, right?
happen?" And they start to track, right? And the like calendar comes out. And
And the like calendar comes out. And like I've had guys that, you know, it's
like I've had guys that, you know, it's like they've done the math. They've got
like they've done the math. They've got a [ __ ] spreadsheet of like when
a [ __ ] spreadsheet of like when rejection happened.
rejection happened. >> 320 hours since the last time I asked
>> 320 hours since the last time I asked 500 hours since.
500 hours since. >> Exactly. Um, but there's been, you know,
>> Exactly. Um, but there's been, you know, every time they've brought desire or
every time they've brought desire or expectation to, you know, their
expectation to, you know, their girlfriend or their wife, every time
girlfriend or their wife, every time that they've brought desire or arousal
that they've brought desire or arousal to them, it's like there's this really
to them, it's like there's this really big expectation that it needs to go
big expectation that it needs to go somewhere.
somewhere. >> It's like, okay, I'm going to make this
>> It's like, okay, I'm going to make this effort. I'm going to make this effort so
effort. I'm going to make this effort so that we have sex. And for women, what
that we have sex. And for women, what what happens is for a lot of women, they
what happens is for a lot of women, they have, you know, like receptive desire.
have, you know, like receptive desire. We as men usually have spontaneous
We as men usually have spontaneous desire. So guys can, you know, most men
desire. So guys can, you know, most men can look at, you know, see their partner
can look at, you know, see their partner in a certain outfit and it's like, "Oh,
in a certain outfit and it's like, "Oh, I'm aroused. Oh, I'm turned on." And for
I'm aroused. Oh, I'm turned on." And for a lot of women, it's it's the inverse.
a lot of women, it's it's the inverse. Some women do have spontaneous desire
Some women do have spontaneous desire where they just will look at us in the
where they just will look at us in the grace pants and they're like that right
grace pants and they're like that right now. Um, but for most women, it's it's a
now. Um, but for most women, it's it's a receiving. They need to receive and kind
receiving. They need to receive and kind of get the battery charged up in some
of get the battery charged up in some way, shape, or form. M I disagreed with
way, shape, or form. M I disagreed with Esther Pel on this. She came on the show
Esther Pel on this. She came on the show and she was saying uh what woman do you
and she was saying uh what woman do you know that is aroused by a man being
know that is aroused by a man being aroused at her? I'm like
aroused at her? I'm like >> lots
>> lots >> every one like is being desired not one
>> every one like is being desired not one of the biggest turnons for a woman. I
of the biggest turnons for a woman. I think I I I might have needed to just
think I I I might have needed to just ask her a different sort of a an angle.
ask her a different sort of a an angle. Maybe I misunderstood what she said. But
Maybe I misunderstood what she said. But uh that was phenomenal conversation. I
uh that was phenomenal conversation. I think she's [ __ ] great at what she
think she's [ __ ] great at what she does. But that was one angle where I
does. But that was one angle where I thought, hm, I think you need to update
thought, hm, I think you need to update your data on that one.
your data on that one. >> Yeah, I think I mean, look at us talking
>> Yeah, I think I mean, look at us talking about what women want
about what women want >> explaining our way through. But I do
>> explaining our way through. But I do think that part of that, you know, when
think that part of that, you know, when that period of time happens is just
that period of time happens is just bringing this like little spontaneous
bringing this like little spontaneous uh unscheduled, uncalculated,
uh unscheduled, uncalculated, non-expecting form of arousal into the
non-expecting form of arousal into the relationship and reinjecting it
relationship and reinjecting it depressurizes the
depressurizes the >> it depressurizes it. And I think for a
>> it depressurizes it. And I think for a lot of women when they get into that
lot of women when they get into that relationship and there's like
relationship and there's like complacency that sets in
complacency that sets in >> then there's like oh when he brings
>> then there's like oh when he brings desire to me there's like an expectation
desire to me there's like an expectation that now I have to perform
that now I have to perform >> now I have to put out
>> now I have to put out >> and she will have also had some sort of
>> and she will have also had some sort of a pivot too I'm guess so yeah you're now
a pivot too I'm guess so yeah you're now >> you're adding pressure on both sides.
>> you're adding pressure on both sides. One thing I was thinking as you were
One thing I was thinking as you were talking there, the complacency comfort
talking there, the complacency comfort thing, which is like safety on steroids,
thing, which is like safety on steroids, it's very sort of tox it's like toxic
it's very sort of tox it's like toxic safety, I suppose, at least toxic to the
safety, I suppose, at least toxic to the bedroom.
bedroom. >> Uh I wonder how much the working from
>> Uh I wonder how much the working from home revolution.
home revolution. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Has been cancerous to one of my dude I I
>> Has been cancerous to one of my dude I I was away. It was George Max's birthday
was away. It was George Max's birthday this year and one of the guys was sat
this year and one of the guys was sat around the table at dinner. We were in
around the table at dinner. We were in Cornerbar here in Austin and uh we were
Cornerbar here in Austin and uh we were talking about working from home which I
talking about working from home which I still currently am until the office and
still currently am until the office and studio gets built and he was saying I
studio gets built and he was saying I can't [ __ ] bear working from home and
can't [ __ ] bear working from home and it's got nothing to do. I would much
it's got nothing to do. I would much sooner work from home but I feel like
sooner work from home but I feel like such a cuck being in the next room and
such a cuck being in the next room and my girlfriend if she asked me how my day
my girlfriend if she asked me how my day went like you [ __ ] know how my day
went like you [ __ ] know how my day went. You heard it. I was sat in there.
went. You heard it. I was sat in there. I was sat in there like a degenerate
I was sat in there like a degenerate with my shirt on and my sweatpants
with my shirt on and my sweatpants because I did couldn't be bothered to
because I did couldn't be bothered to get changed and he said, "I need to
get changed and he said, "I need to leave the house. I need to create some
leave the house. I need to create some sense of mystery, some sense of absence
sense of mystery, some sense of absence and intrigue, not just for her, but for
and intrigue, not just for her, but for me as well."
me as well." >> Totally.
>> Totally. >> And uh yeah, I wonder how much the
>> And uh yeah, I wonder how much the working from home revolution has caused
working from home revolution has caused some dead bedroom because well, the guy
some dead bedroom because well, the guy hasn't gone out and killed any deer.
hasn't gone out and killed any deer. Maybe he managed to do it from his
Maybe he managed to do it from his laptop in the dining room, but there's
laptop in the dining room, but there's no intrigue. There's a mystery.
no intrigue. There's a mystery. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I do I do think
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I do I do think that's a big piece of the equation, you
that's a big piece of the equation, you know, that if you're around each other
know, that if you're around each other too much, that complacency just starts
too much, that complacency just starts to set in, right? It's like there's
to set in, right? It's like there's nothing to talk about, there's nothing
nothing to talk about, there's nothing new, there's nothing exciting. And you
new, there's nothing exciting. And you know, like even after my wife gave birth
know, like even after my wife gave birth to our second child, I mean, I I've
to our second child, I mean, I I've traveled a number of times since then.
traveled a number of times since then. And some of that's been pretty hard, but
And some of that's been pretty hard, but a lot of it is just
a lot of it is just creating some separation,
creating some separation, creating some space, you know, and so
creating some space, you know, and so it's like I didn't need to I didn't need
it's like I didn't need to I didn't need to come out here, you know, like you and
to come out here, you know, like you and I could have done this virtually, but I
I could have done this virtually, but I wanted to. And I wanted to create a
wanted to. And I wanted to create a little bit of space and separation. And
little bit of space and separation. And it's I think it's good for kids, but
it's I think it's good for kids, but it's also good for marriage, you know,
it's also good for marriage, you know, it's good for relationship to have space
it's good for relationship to have space because otherwise you're just on top of
because otherwise you're just on top of each other constantly. And you know,
each other constantly. And you know, it's like you you do have to have really
it's like you you do have to have really great relationships have a couple
great relationships have a couple things. Number one is that really great
things. Number one is that really great relationships have zero guesswork. So I
relationships have zero guesswork. So I I never want to have to guess around
I never want to have to guess around what it is that you want, need, expect,
what it is that you want, need, expect, or desire. those types of things should
or desire. those types of things should be communicated because I think for a
be communicated because I think for a lot of couples what ends up happening is
lot of couples what ends up happening is it's a constant throwing the dart to try
it's a constant throwing the dart to try and get the bullseye but you're not even
and get the bullseye but you're not even anywhere near the board and so there has
anywhere near the board and so there has to be some there has to be very good
to be some there has to be very good communication about expectations needs
communication about expectations needs wants and desires the other thing is
wants and desires the other thing is that there needs to be some level of
that there needs to be some level of space and mystery and I think this is
space and mystery and I think this is very important for men as well like I
very important for men as well like I joke with my wife that The reason why
joke with my wife that The reason why she's with me is because I'm kind of
she's with me is because I'm kind of like an untameable beast, you know, like
like an untameable beast, you know, like there's there's this part of me. She
there's there's this part of me. She knows me super well and
knows me super well and uh you know, we have such great
uh you know, we have such great conversations. We have a lot in common,
conversations. We have a lot in common, blah blah blah, but there's always this
blah blah blah, but there's always this edge. I have this edge that I'm like,
edge. I have this edge that I'm like, you'll never know this part of me.
you'll never know this part of me. You'll never really understand this
You'll never really understand this aspect of me. And part of it's a joke,
aspect of me. And part of it's a joke, but part of it is just keeping a little
but part of it is just keeping a little bit of that mystery alive, you know, of
bit of that mystery alive, you know, of that edge of like I I think that the
that edge of like I I think that the game is over when a woman says, "Oh, I
game is over when a woman says, "Oh, I know you better than you know yourself."
know you better than you know yourself." I think the game's over at that point.
I think the game's over at that point. How do you
How do you blend that with, "Well, I need to be
blend that with, "Well, I need to be able to be um
able to be um barrierless with my partner. I want them
barrierless with my partner. I want them to fully know me. I don't want to hide
to fully know me. I don't want to hide things from them. I don't want to hide
things from them. I don't want to hide things from myself. Are we not supposed
things from myself. Are we not supposed to be in this, you know, uh, seamless
to be in this, you know, uh, seamless transition where we tell each other
transition where we tell each other everything? Is this not the reason the
everything? Is this not the reason the it's the only relationship apart from my
it's the only relationship apart from my therapist that I can do this with? How
therapist that I can do this with? How do you think about
do you think about >> uh that not being some beginning of this
>> uh that not being some beginning of this is just for me, this is my little
is just for me, this is my little precious secret that I have.
precious secret that I have. >> Yeah. It's not about intentionally
>> Yeah. It's not about intentionally withholding. It's about a display of
withholding. It's about a display of one, I I know myself exceptionally well
one, I I know myself exceptionally well and two, I am resourced in relationships
and two, I am resourced in relationships outside of you. So for me, I have, you
outside of you. So for me, I have, you know, I have my own men's group. I have
know, I have my own men's group. I have my own group of men that are very good
my own group of men that are very good friends of mine that know a tremendous
friends of mine that know a tremendous amount about me. And there's things that
amount about me. And there's things that I bring to them that I talk to them
I bring to them that I talk to them about that I don't necessarily need to
about that I don't necessarily need to bring to my wife and talk to her about.
bring to my wife and talk to her about. And we talk about a lot. I don't want to
And we talk about a lot. I don't want to paint the wrong picture that like, you
paint the wrong picture that like, you know, that there's things that are, you
know, that there's things that are, you know, withheld or hidden or that I'm
know, withheld or hidden or that I'm like keeping secrets or anything like
like keeping secrets or anything like that. Um, but it's just that not
that. Um, but it's just that not everything needs to be processed and
everything needs to be processed and spewed out into the relationship. Not
spewed out into the relationship. Not everything. And I think that that has
everything. And I think that that has become a kind of unspoken expectation in
become a kind of unspoken expectation in some modern relationships that like the
some modern relationships that like the relationship should be a container to
relationship should be a container to talk about and process
talk about and process literally everything and that your
literally everything and that your partner should be your therapist and
partner should be your therapist and your coach and your parent and your, you
your coach and your parent and your, you know, your best friend and your lover
know, your best friend and your lover and your affair partner and like
and your affair partner and like literally everything, right? And I don't
literally everything, right? And I don't necessarily I don't think I don't agree
necessarily I don't think I don't agree with that. I think that that's usually
with that. I think that that's usually doesn't work for most people because
doesn't work for most people because what happens is that it's a sign that
what happens is that it's a sign that they are underresourced in other
they are underresourced in other relationships and that they are under
relationships and that they are under resourced in their self relationship
resourced in their self relationship that there's certain parts of themselves
that there's certain parts of themselves that that they don't necessarily
that that they don't necessarily understand or that they're not connected
understand or that they're not connected to. So I think in in part and and I also
to. So I think in in part and and I also think that you know when you look at
think that you know when you look at I don't know if this is going to get me
I don't know if this is going to get me in trouble or not but when you look at
in trouble or not but when you look at uh not in my relationship just online
uh not in my relationship just online when you look at like female desire and
when you look at like female desire and you know women's um archetypes of
you know women's um archetypes of arousal and desire it's it's really that
arousal and desire it's it's really that that kind of beast that gets tamed right
that kind of beast that gets tamed right and when you look at something like
and when you look at something like beauty and the beast I think it's a
beauty and the beast I think it's a great example of feminine and desire,
great example of feminine and desire, right? You have the kind of psychopath
right? You have the kind of psychopath in Gaston that is lacking empathy,
in Gaston that is lacking empathy, that's not compassionate, that is overly
that's not compassionate, that is overly relentless, that doesn't pick up on her
relentless, that doesn't pick up on her cues, that she's not interested. But
cues, that she's not interested. But then you have this other archetype that
then you have this other archetype that is literally a beast, that has not been
is literally a beast, that has not been in a reciprocal relationship, but has
in a reciprocal relationship, but has kind of been a romantic that wants that.
kind of been a romantic that wants that. And part of the feminine desire is to be
And part of the feminine desire is to be in relationship with the beast that you
in relationship with the beast that you know has the status and has those things
know has the status and has those things but also the desire to sort of tame that
but also the desire to sort of tame that part of him. And so I think we as men,
part of him. And so I think we as men, what ends up happening is that we get
what ends up happening is that we get into relationships with women and we
into relationships with women and we often times in an effort to create
often times in an effort to create safety for her, we overly domesticate
safety for her, we overly domesticate and tame ourselves and we become this
and tame ourselves and we become this very docile version that then collapses
very docile version that then collapses the polarity and we lose a kind of
the polarity and we lose a kind of intensity and ferocity, a kind of primal
intensity and ferocity, a kind of primal nature to ourselves that creates
nature to ourselves that creates attraction and we try and signal safety
attraction and we try and signal safety by being excessively docile. And I think
by being excessively docile. And I think that that actually in the long term,
that that actually in the long term, maybe not in the interimm. Yeah. But in
maybe not in the interimm. Yeah. But in the long term, does more harm than good.
the long term, does more harm than good. >> Conor beaten, ladies and gentlemen.
>> Conor beaten, ladies and gentlemen. Dude, you're so great. Thanks, buddy.
Dude, you're so great. Thanks, buddy. >> I think your work absolutely [ __ ]
>> I think your work absolutely [ __ ] rolls. Uh, where should people go to
rolls. Uh, where should people go to check out everything you do? Uh you can
check out everything you do? Uh you can go to mantalks.com man talks on YouTube
go to mantalks.com man talks on YouTube on uh on Instagram. Check out the
on uh on Instagram. Check out the alliance. We've got a great you know
alliance. We've got a great you know community thousand book thousand plus
community thousand book thousand plus dudes. Yeah the book is called men's
dudes. Yeah the book is called men's work um which has been crushing and I'm
work um which has been crushing and I'm working on a second one which is fun. So
working on a second one which is fun. So yeah thanks for having me back brother.
yeah thanks for having me back brother. >> Appreciate you man.
>> Appreciate you man. >> Yeah thank you very much for tuning in
>> Yeah thank you very much for tuning in and congratulations for not being so Tik
and congratulations for not being so Tik Tok brain that you actually made it to
Tok brain that you actually made it to the end of a full podcast. Hooray. Uh
the end of a full podcast. Hooray. Uh maybe another podcast with the one and
maybe another podcast with the one and only Naval Rabbitant
only Naval Rabbitant would also be good for you to watch.
would also be good for you to watch. That's right.
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