This podcast episode features an in-depth conversation between Jay Shetty and Emma Watson, exploring Watson's journey of self-discovery, her evolving relationship with her public persona, and her insights on authenticity, vulnerability, and personal growth.
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I realized have the career and the life
that looks like the dream, but are you
really happy, Emma? Are you really
healthy? And have to admit to myself
that I wasn't was one of the scariest
things I've ever had to do.
>> The number one health and wellness podcast,
podcast,
>> J Shetty.
>> J Shetty,
>> the one, the only J. Shetty.
>> Emma, welcome to On Purpose. I'm so
grateful that you're here and
>> you know you've kind of been out of the
public eye for a while now. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> And don't do that many interviews. I've
watched the interviews you have done
even before we plan to do this. And I
wanted to ask from an intention point
almost of why now? Why today? Why here?
>> I think I mentioned but I read your book
um because my my dear friend Nuper told
me that I should and every now and again
I would see you come up on my feed. I
don't spend much time on Instagram
anymore, but when I did, I just felt
like you were having a different
conversation. And it's not that I have
stopped doing interviews because
I want to hide myself away. I think it's
because I wanted to be able to have a
certain type of conversation that I
didn't seem able to find a space for.
And so I called Nooper and said, "I
think I just reached out to Jay to see
if you would let me come and do his
podcast on Monday." And she was like,
"I've been waiting for this. I wondered
when you would do this." I was like,
"How did you know I was going to do it?"
She's like, "I don't know. I just felt
like this was coming." So, um, here I
am. And you said yes and the timing
worked. I I contacted you last week and
it's Monday and so
>> well from Well, that means the world to
me. Truly. I'm so grateful for that
because the few interactions and
conversations we've had since then and
you've sent me a few things to read over
whether it's journals or reflections and
honestly I I think I just said it to you
a few moments ago and I mean it even if
we weren't having this conversation
today and you just sent me those things
to reflect on myself that would have
already been a gift and so the
opportunity to actually sit with you and
to talk about these things and have the
space to have a conversation that you
feel you haven't had before means the
world to me and so thank you for
trusting me and it's I I look forward to
getting to know you so much better. But
let's let's dive in. I want I wanted to
start by asking you like you said
something there that was really
beautiful because you stopped for a
moment then you said it's easier to be honest
honest
>> and and I was wanted to understand what
that what that meant to you and how that
feels. Such a big part of my job was
trying to think three steps ahead of how
everything that I would say would be
could negatively impact the film that I
was trying to do justice to and do
service to and make sure that people
understood what the director had
intended and I felt this enormous sense
of responsibility all the time to honor
so many people's work that put together
something like a film or you know even
to some degree. I just did a fragrance
with Prada and it's the first perfume
bottle that you can like refill and I
don't know I I take my job seriously I
guess and so interviews to me felt a lot
like chess and it required so much
energy and I think what's nice about the
way that I'm showing up today is I'm
just showing up for myself and for once.
I actually am not here to um speak on
behalf of anyone else or anything else
other than myself, which is unusual.
>> Yeah. I think I think it's such a
fascinating thing because as a viewer,
even before I got closer to the industry,
industry,
>> as a viewer, everything's made to feel
in traditional media so
easy and it has levity and it feels like
you're getting someone's real
personality and and then you realize
that you are. There's definitely reality
to it and truth to it. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> But at the same time, naturally, it's work.
work. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And and there's a job. And I think it's
not as
>> And you can shed more light on this. I
don't think it's always as insidious or
as dark as people may think it is, but
there's there's just it's a job and it's
work and there's results that matter, >> right?
>> right?
>> 100%. And I think within those contexts,
everyone is trying to be as authentic as
they humanly can be. But there's
something about I think it's why I
mentioned um earlier about why I felt
like this was a good space is there's
something inherently written into
certain types of forms of media which is
that it it doesn't matter what intention
or or how authentically you want to show
up the form like somehow doesn't allow it
it
>> to some degree and I've become obsessed
with this recently. I've been looking at
okay what is written into the form of
something like Twitter or Instagram or
Tik Tok or a podcast versus or a
photograph versus a film versus a piece
of writing and it's really interesting
to see what a different medium or
different form allows or doesn't allow
and or like actually creates or
encourages. I've never done a podcast
before, but I love I think what I love
about it is the is the intimacy of it.
It's like I feel like people listen to
podcasts when they're like I certainly
do anyway like first thing in the
morning when I'm taking my shower or I'm
going on my walk or I'm making my
breakfast. It's really like personal
intimate time and I think the long form
version of these kinds of conversations
uh allows for such a different kind of
discussion that I don't think was
possible before.
>> Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree with
you more. I was going to ask you
actually because I want everyone to get
up to date with where you are now. Like
what is what does your day-to-day life
look like? You just said like I wake up
and I shower and I go on a walk. Like
what does your day-to-day life look like
right now? And what what makes what's it
made of and what are the things that you
love and look forward to?
>> I recently started riding a bicycle and
yes, I started riding a bicycle before
my driving van, but now it's
particularly fortuitous that I also ride
a bicycle um for that reason. But
>> I thought that was mainstream news.
>> Yeah. Oh my god. I was getting phone
calls like it's on the BBC. It's on
international worldwide news. I was like
my shame is that it's everywhere. This
is I mean what I say it's I don't know.
I think in a funny way what the sweetest
result of it was getting so many
messages from being people being like
happened to me too. I feel you. This is
awful. It sucks. Um which was kind of
nice in a way but um >> lift.
>> lift.
>> Yeah totally. Do you need a lift? It's
like actually yes. But I think again
it's funny like I I went from when you
work on movies I don't know if people
know this but like they literally will
not insure you to drive yourself to
work. I've asked so many times.
>> You have to be driven.
>> You have to be driven. It's like not a
choice. And especially because they need
you there, you know, down to the minute
basically depending on what they have
going on. And so I went from basically
only driving myself on weekends or
during holiday to then when I became a
student driving myself all the time and
yeah I did not have the experience or
skills uh clearly which I now will and
and and do. But I think again this was
one of these like awkward transitions I
made from kind of living this like very
very structured life to living a life
where I was like okay I guess I'm going
to get myself to this place and I'm
going to like do this thing that I've
basically not done since I was 10 years
old. So, it's been a discovery and a
journey that's been um yeah, I guess
humbling because
on a movie set, I'm able to do all of
these like extremely complex things,
stunt, sing, dance, like do this thing,
do that, whatever. And I'm like, "Yep,
don't worry about it, guys. No worries.
I've got you." And then I get home and
I'm like, "Okay, Emma, you seem unable
to remember keys. you money to like keep
yourself at 30 mph in a in a in a 30 m
speed limit. Like you you don't seem
able to do some pretty like basic life
things. And it it was definitely kind of
Yeah, I had days where I just wanted to
turn around to people and be like, I
used to be good at things. Okay. I used
to be really good at things. And I know
it doesn't look like that right now, but
um I I used to I I can do things
normally. Um, so yeah, it's been uh it's
been humbling.
>> I feel I feel like all of us I feel like
all of us can relate to that though
because doesn't everyone forget their
keys, their wallet, doesn't know where
things are? Like these are these are
like ser And by the way, I was I think I
was three points away from losing my
license before I moved to the States.
>> Thank you for that confession. I
appreciate that so much.
>> Because I was in the States for I've
been in the States now for 9 years and I
think it happened just but then all the
points get wiped off.
>> Wow. And I think I'm now back to six
points. I spent two months in London a year.
year.
>> Okay. Every time I go back, I seem to
>> Oh, much better. Wow.
>> So, I'm confessing to you.
>> But I haven't lost it.
>> A lot of people actually a lot of people
have like taken it upon themselves to
come and confess to me, which I found
like very like very endearing and like
really really appreciate it. But no, I
think, you know, I think something I've
been realizing is we most of us live in
a state of like I'm just trying to kind
of figure it out and keep it together.
And the only thing that is different
between us is people's willingness to be
honest about
that. The degree to which they can admit
to actually I'm just like scrabbling
around trying to keep the pieces
together versus um oh yeah I know
everything's amazing and everything's
incredible and I'm having the best day
ever and aren't you? And you know, so I
do love the people who who are just
willing to be like, "Yeah, it's uh it's
not going so well today." I'm like,
"Great, amazing. What a good starting
point." Like I don't know, failure as a
starting point. Feels like I feel like
attempting things is so compelling. And
>> of course success is wonderful, but I
love to see people who are like, "I'm
really bad at this, but I'm going to
try." like I love you. That's everything
to me. Everything.
>> And that seems to be becoming harder and
harder now.
>> Like that desire to attempt something
that you might not be good at because
it's exposed or because everyone will
see it or because everyone will hear
about it.
>> Talking about attempting things. I mean,
you're currently studying, right? You're learning.
learning.
>> Yes. Yes. Well, two things I want to say
there is I think in a way I was sort of
I mean I'm someone who's always cared
about vulnerability and authenticity,
but I think I was also forced into it to
a degree that that maybe even I wasn't
ready for and that like I just started
so young that like I had to learn in
public. I had to make mistakes in public
and say, "Oh, okay. Now I've learned
this." And I had to be willing to go
back and be like, hm, like there was
some gaps here. Um, and here's what I
know now. And I think people's I agree
with you. I think it's becoming
increasingly difficult to learn in
public and continuing to learn. I mean,
I think that's one of the reasons why I
I have gone back to school and why I
continue to do it is because I want to
make sure that I have things to say that
are worth saying. And I think you can
only do that if you take a minute
sometimes and
listen to some people who aren't you,
you know, like not just the sound of my
own my own wonderful voice. Um, so yeah,
it's been it's been great. And I think
also I needed to I wanted to be
inspired. I think being around my
favorite piece has been being around
young people who still believe that the
world is malleable and things are
changeable and that like anything can be
done is um such important energy.
There's so much dystopian fiction at the
moment and dystopian movies so dark.
>> It's so dark and I'm just like
>> what happened to thinking about the
utopia? What happened to like planning
for the best case scenario? like where
where did we lose
yeah vision excitement imagination
possibility so I think it's been um yeah
it's been wonderful to be around young
people and just to sit there and listen
>> do you ever I mean you clearly read so
much do you have to take yourself away
to do it in order to be able to do it do
you have to cordon off time like how are
you still managing to study and learn
because that seems like it's important
to you Yeah. You you reminded me as you
were talking of one of my spiritual
teachers, my monk teacher, who always
said to me, if you want to move three
steps forward, you have to go three
steps deep first. >> Whoa.
>> Whoa.
>> And what I found often in my life is I'm
trying to go four steps forward and I
haven't yet gone four steps deep. And so
it's almost like I mean this is probably
a a terrible analogy, but maybe thinking
of the movie The Substance. I don't know
if you watched it.
>> Okay, fine. Okay. Terrible. Let's let's
remove No, no, no. Let's forget about
it. But but it's that idea of like every
extra step you take when you haven't
learned and you haven't experimented and
you haven't attempted
>> is taking away from your ability to move
forward. And sometimes I think when we
feel stuck or when we think things are
not moving or they're not progressing.
>> You may be a sign to say well pause and
go deeper for a second or pause and go
inward for a second. And so to me,
hearing that from you, I I find that and
and I'm I definitely fail at this all
the time.
>> There are so many times I'm trying to
push more forward than I've gone deep.
>> And so whenever I notice that myself and
I notice that I'm just kind of trying
everything and nothing is working, it's
actually just the universe and self
saying to me, go read, go study. And so
I found that I've had to really carve
out time to make time to do what I love,
which is to read and study. But I found
that I'm someone who doesn't love 30
minutes a day. I'm not that kind of a
reader. I'm someone who needs to read
for 3 or 4 hours, if not more. And so I
found that carving out deep immersive
time is more important to me than this
kind of mechanical 30 40 minutes a day,
which is great for you if that works for
you as a habit. It doesn't bit of an
extremist and I just need to spend a
whole weekend reading
>> as opposed to I don't need to read every
day. So I'll try and I try once a month
on a weekend to just absorb into a
subject that I love and I'll take a
course, I'll go to a class, I'll watch a
TED talk online, I'll read as many books
as I can and I try and immerse myself
that way. What's your learning style?
I'm the same as you. And actually u
someone who I really respect and ask for
advice for often and I ask for feedback
on on myself. He said to me, Emma, I
think if you did 90% of what you wanted
to do at 50% of the speed, you would get
so much more like life would be so much
better. And I was like, "Wow, 50% of the
speed and only 90% of what I want to
do." And he was like, I think that's the
minimum to be honest. And I was like,
wow. But I think it, yeah, what you said
resonates. I think I often have to
remind myself that it's not about
speedily getting somewhere. It's just
not the point. Things are supposed to
happen um with a certain timing. And so
um yeah, resonates. And and to your
point, I cannot just sit for 30 minutes
and look at something. I need I need
kind of like a week on holiday and then
I'll start to deeply get into something
and I need quiet and I hyperfocus and I
that's when I you know I love it but I
can't I can't do little itty bitty bits.
It drives me nuts.
>> It just doesn't work for me.
>> It doesn't work. So it doesn't work for
me. Resates.
>> You said that you felt that you had to
learn in public and then you made
mistakes. Like what were mistakes that
felt like mistakes then
>> that made you feel like oh gosh I made
that mistake in public but I was 10
years old or whatever it was
>> and now you look back and you think oh
you know I was able to process it.
>> Yeah. I I think the big one was feminism
and intersectional feminism and frankly
it just like wasn't taught. you know, I
had to really seek out and I'm really
grateful actually that I was in many
ways quite lovingly called in as opposed
to I mean some of it was not but I think
that was definitely a moment where I had
to say okay I'm talking about something
really big and important and it's
actually really important to sit this in
some context which I have not done and I
think that was a big moment. I think it
was more there was an omission that was
there was things that were missing as
opposed to I had said something wrong. I
just needed I just needed to fill in
more gaps. And so um that was when I
started or that was actually in the
middle. I had a I had a feminist book
club called Art Shad Shelf.
>> And um so that was part of those
conversations. But it was a good moment
for me to learn that feeling
uncomfortable sometimes is good. I think
we have an alarm system that goes off
which is like I'm uncomfortable. This
feels uncomfortable. So something bad
must be happening and I must leave as
soon as possible. And actually I think
that was when I started to learn, oh
actually me being uncomfortable in a
space um might be a good sign because it
might mean I'm about to learn something.
And I want to attribute this that was
Mara Larasai who who helped me
understand that and uh was a very very
valuable teaching. So now when I'm in a
space and listening to things and I feel
uncomfortable I don't think it means I
need to bolt or something bad's happening.
happening. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Maybe something really good is about to happen.
happen. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And I feel like that goes back to
what we started with this idea of
attempting means discomfort
>> and attempting means incomplete. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> In that and I love I love that point you
made that actually whenever we're
sharing anything it's not that it's not
true. It's that it's not complete. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> And mostly when we see people say things or
or
>> share ideas, it's very rare to have
anyone ever share a complete idea
because that means they would have had
to think about it from every single
vantage point. Yeah. which is not even
humanly possible.
>> It's not possible. It's not possible.
And I think Adrien Marie Brown, I don't
know if you've ever had, she's she wrote
an amazing book which um is one of her
more recent ones which is called Loving
Corrections. and she speaks to kind of
exactly this, which is
there's kind of this like
that we see online when people don't
attribute something perfectly to someone
else or they're missing something and
it's like, isn't the whole point of this
that we're in conversation? And if it's
the right person, you can see that a
good intention is there,
>> then maybe we can
kind of do it in a way that doesn't need
to be I mean obviously there's there's
important time and place for holding
people accountable.
>> Um but maybe I don't know attributing
like great we're all going to help each
other kind of pad this out fill this out.
out. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a hard I think
that's the hard part. It's like how do
you differentiate between holding
someone accountable
>> and giving them grace? And that's a
really interesting discussion in and of
itself. And I don't think I I have the
answer or know exactly what it is, but I
feel like that's a thought exercise as
humans that if we were to do it would
actually I don't know. What's your take?
>> Maybe the grace is attributing good
intention and the accountability is the
courage it takes to actually say
something to someone. because it's such
a scary thing to do and it often
requires a lot of emotional labor
>> and I find this a lot as a woman when
I'm especially as a woman who's dating
that like I I will just be like is it
worth me explaining is it worth me
explaining this thing or should I just
not take the time to do this because
sometimes I will really I care about
doing it kindly and compassionately.
And it's very rare for me to attribute
bad intent to anyone, but you know,
sometimes it does fall on on deaf ears
and you're like that text message took
me like 40 minutes like to word
perfectly or that voice note or whatever
and you're like is this making a
difference? Like am I getting through to
any is transformative justice real? Like
is this is this label worth it? But I
think I don't have a perfect answer. I I
I'm not I haven't lived through enough
of it to know. I guess I've just reached
a point where it's like I'd rather I'd
rather die trying. I'd rather die having
tried. And maybe some small piece of it,
even if it's not now, even if it's at
some future point, like something I've
said just like goes, "Oh, something at
the back of my mind here, someone says
something to me, then you know, maybe
it's worth it."
>> Yeah. I will never believe that one
negates the other and that my experience
of that person
I don't get to keep and cherish.
I to come back to our earlier thing like
I just don't think these things are
either or. I hope people who don't agree
with my opinion will love me and I hope
I can keep loving people who I don't
necessarily share the same opinion with.
And I think that's a very very important
way for me that I need to be able to
move through life. I really do believe in
in
having conversations. And I guess where
I've landed is
it's not so much what we say or what we believe,
believe,
but very often how we say it. When you
think about Little Emma, >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> like what was a childhood memory that
you have, a core memory that you have
that you feel has defined who you are
today somewhat?
>> I think I won't share the specific
memory cuz it's so personal, but
I think I've always felt other people's
pain very intensely. M
>> um until
maybe recently, I
did not know how to give myself grace
and navigate
seeing my sensitivity as a strength and
knowing that
it's like my gift,
but it also
means I have to care for it in specific
specific ways. When you are given gifts,
kind of have to compensate in some other
ways. And in the same way that like my
position in life and fame has given me
this extraordinary power, it's also
given me a lot of responsibility. And
these things often have these kind of I
don't know when or why it started, but I think
think
I've always whoever it was that was
suffering in the room, I was always the
most aware of them.
>> And I think that has formed
a lot of why I could act. It was almost
like I was kind of sucking all of this
in and then I needed to
let it out somewhere or unleash it
somewhere. And I remember when my
parents saw me on stage for the first
time afterwards, they were just like,
"Where did that come from? You don't
have any of these experiences." I
recorded a song for my 12th birthday. My
mom bought me a day in a recording
studio. And I sing Natalie and Bruy is
torn. Like I've had my heart broken
50,000 times, you know? Like I've been
married and divorced and whatever. And
I'm 12 and I've never had a boyfriend
and I don't know anything about love.
Have you ever thought about where it
came from or
>> I would imagine I I can't say for sure.
I would imagine that
my family structure has not been a
traditional family structure. And that
feeling of knowing that
I'm from a situation where we just don't
quite fit the kind of nuclear family
mold. And I think coming back from
France and trying to figure out how to
sort of integrate and being the eldest
and having my younger brother and having
my mom and like trying to sort of be
some sort of glue or holding together
for everyone's feelings.
>> I'm pretty sure that's probably where it
>> that's where it started.
>> Yeah. Um, and then I guess just being
aware of other people who might feel the
way I did, which is like, who else in
here doesn't feel like they quite fit?
>> I've always found that it took me a
while to recognize, but when I did, it
was so helpful that a lot of what I do
today is because I mediated my parents'
marriage growing up.
>> And so I developed all these skills of
listening and empathy and grace and
compassion because I was doing it for
two people that I loved.
>> Yes. And I see it as a strength and yes
it comes with it comes with certain
things for sure it comes you're
absolutely right but at the same time
I've always seen it as a strength
>> and it's something that has served me
well in my marriage it's served me well
in my relationships
>> and at the same time it has certain
>> consequences that that that make you
different or or make you process things
differently and so and I remember one
thing you shared with me
>> that I was reading it you you said, "I
used to spend my weekdays with mom and
my weekends with dad."
>> And you said it almost felt like you
were changing costumes sometimes. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> And they're all like this two lives kind
of thing.
>> Yes. Yes.
>> And and I feel that's so relatable. I
feel like so many people can relate to
that. Whether
>> whether their family was more
traditional or wasn't,
>> I think every child has had this feeling
of not fitting in quite and not knowing
which life they're meant to lead and
that feels like it's kind of >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> played into yours.
>> Yes, for sure. I think it's also why
I've had to really navigate my
relationship towards art and acting
because I'm pretty sure that I was using
acting as a way of escaping how painful
um my parents
like it wasn't just the divorce. It was
just like the continuing situation of
living between two different houses and
two different lives and two different
sets of values. And as a child like
being aware of like hm we don't quite
have the support we need here for this
like this is not quite we're not quite
like and I think it does it makes you
it made me a slightly
serious child because I was like had
that consciousness and then when I would
go and spend the weekend with my dad it
was like a very different set of rules,
very different situation and so you do
you kind of like
and I think everyone can relate to this
to an extent that it's not that you are
be like wanting to become different
people but it's you there are different
expectations of you in different places
that you understand that you need to
fill and so I think some of that split
then became I was like okay wow you know
my parents have very different views
views on different things. And the hard
part of that was that no one gave me any
easy answers.
>> It meant I had to form all of my own
opinions myself because there was no consensus.
consensus.
>> And it made me a critical thinker for
sure because
>> and so that was amazing and also really
like gosh, okay, I need to decide what I
think is important in life and what my
opinions are. No one's handing me this.
>> Yeah. Maybe it also made me aware of
um not wanting to be so split as well
>> and why
it's been important to me to try to
remain whole. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> In all the different circumstances of my
life and ask myself questions about how
I can do that best because I think I
experienced as a child that the split is
painful. Like if you're living a reality
one way but presenting something else,
those are the moments when it can it can
you can really feel torn apart. And
I I recognized that and I didn't want
that to be my life. I didn't want
pretend to be my real life.
>> Yeah. I mean that's so I I I can so
relate to you personally on the idea of
not having a blueprint and having to
create my own. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And how often when you don't have a
blueprint, you feel you have two choices.
choices.
>> And that's where you feel torn.
>> Whereas when you look at it as a whole
and go, okay, well now I get to craft my
own narrative from this
>> and I may take a few pieces from here
and a few pieces from here and I'm going
to form my own puzzle.
>> But I don't have to choose a path. Yeah,
>> it's really beautiful when you do it,
but it's really hard because it just
feels like there are two impact,
impact,
>> you know, your work. And you you said
there, you said that one thing you
mentioned that really stood out to me
was you felt that acting
>> was in some way escaping that kind of
which version do I have to be? And I
think so much of what we do for work or
so much of what we pursue as humans
>> is based on something we're trying to
build, create,
>> maybe escape from, maybe to reveal
something. And I think we haven't often
looked at
>> work that way. Like sometimes we choose
a career because we know it will make
our parents happy. And so we're living a
pattern or sometimes you choose
something because it breaks the pattern
that you were growing up in. And it it's
fascinating to me to look at that. for
you, you were acting in school plays
since you were a a young girl.
>> And was acting always something you were
going to do, or did do you feel like it
was this cross-section of what was
happening in your personal life that
actually made that feel like the
direction you would choose?
>> I think it's so interesting that you
said those words, reveal and escape,
that that they kind of the same thing
because I think that it all started with
a poem. I did a poetry competition when
I was nine called the Daisy Pratt poetry
competition. And I'm actually naturally
quite a shy person. Uh and so actually
for me to stand up in front of people
feels like an out-of- body experience.
Like there's so much adrenaline coursing
through my veins that it does feel like
a moment outside of time. And I remember
the exhilaration of
living the kind of ups and downs of this poem.
poem.
And maybe because there wasn't
space to have conversations or express
myself at that time in the way that I
needed to. I did it through performance.
And I also did it as a way of getting to
feel free for a moment of of what I was
like the discomfort of that time of not
quite knowing who I was or how to be in
the world. And
as I've become more
healed and whole and and more
comfortable being myself, it's been
interesting to ask myself, do you still
need acting? do you still need to act?
Like why
what are you doing that for? And like
the kind of it used to feel like almost
like a compulsion that I needed to do
it. And what's really interesting now is
I don't feel quite
that kind of urgency of needing to do
it. And I wonder if it's because actually
actually
I have spaces where I can now take some
of those feelings and talk about some of
the things I I don't think I had space
to to voice
>> in in
>> without doing it on camera in front of
thousands of people. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Which which is which is scary in
its own way, right? It's like it's easy to
to
>> it's easy to think, "Oh, that makes
sense." But then it's like, well, no,
it's it's really challenging
>> to do that second part. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Even even if it makes sense rationally
or logically. And
>> was was that what in in 2019 when you
kind of pulled away
>> was your reason I want to heal and work
on myself or was it actually I don't
feel a compulsion anymore? Like was that
the inflection point of
>> doing some self work or was that the
inflection point of need to pause? I
realized I was drawing on painful stuff
in my life that I was actually healing
and I didn't want to keep revisiting in
order to do some of the more intense,
scarier, sadder things that I had to do.
I realized
I remember
by Beth's
um deathbed by her by her graveside when
we shot those films. Like normally there
are like these painful memories that I
would use for those moments. And I
realized I was like I don't know if this
is super great for me actually to keep
to keep revisiting these or if I want to
use these as my tools and I don't think
that means I'll never come back to
acting. I think it just meant I was like
hm I wonder if there's a different way
to do this. Mhm.
>> I think the second thing was to be
really honest.
I was coming to those sets
with an expectation that I think I had
developed on Harry Potter, which was
that we were the people I worked with
were going to be my family and that we
were going to be lifelong friends. I
came to work looking for friendship
and that was a very painful experience
for me outside of Harry Potter and in Hollywood.
Hollywood. like
like
bonebreakingly painful. Um because most
people don't come to those environments
looking for friendships. They're looking
for this is my chance. This is my role.
This is what I want out of it. I'm
focused. This is my job. This is my
career. Like let's go. And I was not of
that mindset. And so I found I found the
rejection really painful.
>> The friendship rejection. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Of like I re I was like I I think
it's so unusual to make a set of films
for 12 years and we were a community.
Like we we really were. And so I took
that as an exploitation into my into my
other workplaces and I just got my I
just got my ass kicked. I really did.
Was it competition? Was it envy? Was it
just hierarchy? Was it
>> I think it was a combination. It was a
molotov cocktail of all of the above. As
we mentioned earlier, I'm just not thick
skinned. Maybe I just wasn't built for
those kinds of highly competitive environments.
environments.
But in a way, I'm proud that it did
because I guess that means I have
something left to break. I have a heart
left to break. So,
So,
it was a hard learning, but I think
I'm proud of in a way that there were
>> Think there might be a tissue.
>> I'm managing to like inside.
inside.
>> You need it. There is a tissue.
>> That's really No, but I really
appreciate you saying that and and I I
mean it's so powerful to hear how you've
processed it. like just what you added
there cuz when when I saw your voice
change and and just when you were
expressing it
>> and and it and it hit me as you said it
and I felt it and then the way you
reflected on it kind of helped that
feeling rise really beautifully because
what you said is so true that if you
were broken by a frequency of envy and
competition and whatever else it was
that's only proof that you were
vibrating in a way that didn't want to
be pulled down into that. And it's so
interesting though how when we break to
those sorts of emotions and ideas, we
feel we're the weak one. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> When it's completely the opposite. That
was that was the most painful thing was
I thought I I beat myself up
for years afterwards really thinking
like punishing myself saying you
couldn't hack it, you weren't strong enough.
enough.
>> And yeah, what what bliss and what peace
I think to understand that
to have come out on top
would have been
a greater failure I think in terms of
who I actually care about being.
>> Yeah. It's almost like if you abandoned
yourself in that moment in order to
align with that new way of thinking. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> You'd probably beat yourself up more
long term and have a much harder time.
>> Yes, I think so. I don't know. I've just
got to this place where it's just if it
costs me any part of my piece, it's just
too expensive. And of course, like
there's opportunities that I think, wow,
like that would be amazing. And
I care deeply about
my work. Um, but I think it's just I
think I just used to completely
sacrifice myself for whatever the thing
was I was trying to achieve. And that
could be a grade, it could be a movie,
it could be promoting. I just was
obsessed with excellence and doing
everything, giving my all to everything
and doing it to the best of my ability.
And unless you have the right people
around you that can hold that kind of
level of commitment, you're going to get
smashed up. You're just going to get
crushed. And so I think now it's just a
case of me being like, okay, I know that
for me to do anything, I have to have
people in the room that care about me
more than whatever the product is or
whatever the final product is. And if
that isn't the case, I cannot be there
because I'm just someone who like gives
it all. It's how I'm built. And I think
understanding that makeup of myself and
not punishing myself for that, but just
knowing it needs certain kinds of
conditions is how
I've come to hopefully I'll keep doing
it forever and probably every day, but
accepting myself. Yeah, it seems like I'
I've spoken to so many and we were
talking about this last week when we
were when we were speaking on the phone
that I I've worked with so many young
people, musicians who who've all been
told like, "All right, if you don't do
this over the next 12 months, you're not
going to make it." >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Or like if you don't do this right now,
if you don't say yes to this song or
this movie, it's like you might as well
wave it goodbye. You're never going to
get the Oscar or the whatever it may be
or the Grammy or whatever it is. And I
can't imagine being a young person like
I'm 37 now and it's you process
>> ideas like that differently. Yeah.
>> But if you're in your teens or even 20s
there's and maybe even 30s, but you
process those statements with so much
gravitas, especially when it's someone
of influence and power saying it to you.
>> Yeah. It feels like being surrounded by
people who really believe in you and
your longevity and your art versus But
that's hard to find.
>> It is. It's hard to find. And
And
you know, I I I had a wonderful team.
Like I I really did. I think it's just
like understanding that no one at the
end of the day is going to be in the
room like when you're actually doing the
thing. You have to carry that moment and
you have to carry that pressure. Also,
making films, the hours on them are so
demanding that to have your own life
alongside that, to have that balance is
almost impossible. It's so all or
nothing. It's so all-encompassing,
especially if you're in a lead role. Um,
you kind of go through these,
you know, working six days a week, 14 to
16 hour days, and then you're just kind
of dropped off at the end of it. and
maybe you'll have a 2 or 3 month gap and
then there's just kind of like nothing.
>> And so you're like riding this like
incredible peak of like adrenaline and
cortisol and then you just get like
dropped off the edge and then you're
like, "Okay, wait, now I have to be a
functioning human again and I have to
like figure out how to be a person in
the real world." And
I think some of those extremes
then force an actor to either decide,
well, I'm going to back to back it, so
I'm going to basically go from one movie
to the next, and that's going to be my
full life.
Or you have to navigate these huge
impacts on your nervous system that you
need a system and a support system to
help you navigate. And I think it's why
addiction and
mental illness
in my profession and in a lot of high
stress, high profile professions is so
common place because you're trying to
balance out these enormous chemical
chemical
ups and downs.
>> Yeah. talk talk to people about why
because I think from the outside
>> when someone sees a red carpet
>> or when someone sees an event it looks
really glamorous like until I ever
attended anything and you know I I
always looked at it as like oh my gosh
it's so glamorous and everyone's there
and everyone must be friends and
everyone must know each other because
they all you know but but then you're
not saying that and neither is and and
anytime I've ever been on a red carpet
everyone's anxious and everyone's
nervous and that's the real experience
People are almost waiting to leave. Yes.
>> And some people do the red carpet and
leave immediately, but but what's going
on there? Like walk us through like for
people who may not
>> I think the first step is to just understand
understand
even though you're wearing an incredibly
glamorous dress and you're there to do
something exciting, I don't think
there's anything that can make it not
weird that people are screaming at the
top of their lungs. Like it it just
everything in your body says something's
wrong. like people are screaming
something's wrong.
>> But then you have to try to pretend as though
though
>> this is all normal and you're unfased.
So you have like two things going on.
One, you're like navigating this like
sensory overload that's like telling
you, oh my god, something is really wrong.
wrong.
>> Telling you how to pose, telling you
where to look, telling you
>> Yeah. So, so you're trying to navigate,
okay, something feels wrong, but I need
to also simultaneously make it seem as
though I am the most graceful and the
most calm I've ever been in my whole
life. And I need to like pose for this
person and there's 50 different cameras
and I need to make sure that I look
perfectly into each and every one. And I
probably would have had four different
notes from the stylist about how I'm
supposed to stand and what I need to do
for the dress. And then I've got like 25
different talking points from the movie
of like what I need to get across and
also avoid saying or talking about. And
so like you need to be thinking about
that. And the the juggle is crazy. And
then I think everyone is in this like
kind of jumped up state. And so like
trying to have a normal conversation
with anyone is basically impossible
because you feel like an insane person.
And so these are not environments in
which you like have a nice chat with
someone really. I mean, maybe if you're
really lucky and you've worked with
someone for a long time and you've
established some trust, but I think that
was the other thing that was like really
difficult about movies and what like I
kind of laugh at. Well, not not in a
mean way. I don't but like you know you
always get asked when you're like
promoting these big films like so do you
guys hang out on set and like do you
guys hang out and like are you all
friends and everyone sort of like nods
enthusiastically but the truth is no one
has seen each other outside of work like
very very very rarely mostly because the
schedule is insane. Everyone's so tired
that when they get any time off you're
going straight back to your hotel room
to try to like claw in any piece of rest
that you possibly can. And like I don't
know like it friendships
require time and trust and presence and
those things like very rarely come
about. They they can and they like do
occasionally but it it's more of a more
of a you know solar eclipse than a than
an everyday situation. So yeah, but you
have to pretend. I think that's the part
that starts to feel icky after a while
is like you you have to pretend that
you're all best friends. And what's so
sad and and I I know this isn't just the
case for me, but like I think people
wish they were.
>> I think we wish we did have those real
connections and we did have that real
support. And so having to pretend that
something exists that you actually
really want but don't have is like
>> it's like pretty grainy in the wound,
you know? It's like it's pretty like
tough pill to swallow to have to act out
something that you wish were real but
isn't real. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um and I think that's the part that
starts to kind of
>> Yeah. I can only speak for myself but
those are definitely the moments where
I've been like this feels dark. Like is
anyone else like this feels dark? Um,
>> yeah. And and there's such a real
reminder that it's still work. And it's
almost like asking anyone who works at
any company and saying, "Hey, do you
hang out with your team after work every
night?" And the answer is probably no.
Yeah. No. Everyone's go home to their
family. And maybe you've got a couple,
of course, you got a couple of friends
at work. And it's wonderful if you have
a friend at work that you work out with
or see after hours, but you're not
hanging out as the whole crew. It's it's
very unlikely.
>> 100%. and and it and it is that reality
check of no but this is also just work
>> and their character stories are not
their personal stories and it doesn't
and that's why I wanted to go back you
mentioned that you talked about how
Harry Potter had a family feel
>> and I wanted to ask you like how did
that come about in the first like what
what was where where did the auditions
come from like how did that become a
part of your life
>> yes so I did not go to a performing arts
school I'd never done anything. I never
acted professionally, but they came they
they did like a basically countrywide
search to find Harry, Hermione, and Ron.
And so they asked my school if they
wanted to submit any students who love
drama who wanted to audition. And so I
was one of I think about 12 students
that was asked if I wanted to audition.
I don't know. It was weird. I had this
weird weighted fated sense of destiny
pretty much from the moment that that
they said they mentioned the audition. I
remember I brought I think maybe like
seven different Beanie Babies with me
along and like all these different like
lucky talismans and I loved the world
and the books so much. My dad had been
reading them to me before bed when I
would spend the weekends with him and on
long car journeys. We'd often drive back
and forwards to France and that's how
the time would be passed. And so I was
just like loved the world, loved her.
And for me it wasn't so much about
acting so much as it was that like I just
just
the books meant
so much to me personally.
>> Did you feel like it was destiny for you
or did it feel like did you always feel
like it was going to be this?
>> I always
>> because obviously the books were already
you know
>> I always felt like Hermione was I knew I
was never auditioning for anything else
like I knew it was her. I don't know. I
don't know how to explain it. Something
felt right about it. And
my yeah, my poor parents because if I
hadn't have got it, I think they knew
her crush. I ended up doing nine
auditions over a period of over a year
and a half, which for a 9-year-old is
>> a lot of work,
>> a massive commitment, but I was I loved her.
her.
>> I loved it. I really did. What do you
wish now that you would have known
before you became Hermione?
>> I did a pretty good job and I'm
actually I give my mother specifically
credit for this. She was like a warrior
for my normaly and for me having an
ordinary life and going to school and
no one wanted that. I mean, it would
have been considerably easier if I had
not continued going to school. Um, but she,
she,
wow, like I will forever be in her debt.
She somehow knew that me feeling part of
the ordinary world and feeling I had a
place in it and that I belonged outside
of those films was going to be crucial.
>> Wow, that's really incredible. It was
because she basically didn't have anyone
on her team. She was kind of on her own
on that one. And she fought tooth and
nail. She was like on the phone for
hours saying she has to sit her exams.
She has to go back. Like she needs to be
here. She she needs to have some parts
of a normal childhood. And
yeah, forever in her debt.
>> That's so special to have had that. And
have those Yeah. to have a parent who
who can foresee like and you can't see
anything for yourself. You're
>> Yeah. No. And to be honest, I didn't
really I didn't really get it if I'm
going to be I was like okay like I guess
it's important like you know I didn't
really get it. So I think
>> yeah she was amazing.
>> Yeah. When when did because from what I
was reading from what you shared with me
I was when did Emma you Emma Watson and
Hermione and the characters that then
followed start to get blurred and
intertwined because
>> that expectation that comes with
I I remember this and I and I share it
because to to give it to context to
people I was walking down the road with
one of my friends who's an actor who
gets recognized a hundred times for
every one time might get recognized. So,
just put in contact. And so, if we're
walking down like this person get
stopped 100 times for pictures and then
I'll get stopped once. >> And
>> And
it was really beautiful cuz we we'd
spent a day together and that person had
been stopped 100 times and maybe I've
been stopped a couple of times.
>> And then they said something to me. They
said, "Jay,
Jay, you're really lucky." And I said,
"What do you mean?" And and I thought
they were going to say, "Because I'm I'm
anonymous to some degree." But they
didn't. He he said to me, he goes, "Jay,
you're really lucky because he goes,
"When people
stop me, they stop me for who I play to be.
be.
>> And when they stop you, they stop you
for who you are." And it was really
encouraging words from someone that I
respect a lot.
>> And I was like, "Wow." Like, I never
thought about it like that. I just I
just it hadn't hit me how different it was.
was.
>> And because I think you just see
>> fame or success or whatever is this one
big bubble of of stuff, especially when
you're not that close to it, you don't
know too much about it. And it was that
conversation that made me even be even
more personal with everyone that I ever
spoke to because they'd always have a
personal story or and and that's not not
to say that isn't true for music and for
acting and of course there is. I don't
want to take away from it.
>> No. No.
>> Um and I'm not saying that as a
egotistical statement. I'm saying it as
like how hard it is for an individual to
go through that. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> And to be disassociated from themselves.
>> Yes. Uh because that role could be a
part of you. It could be an expression
of you. It was a part of your life at a
certain period of time, but of course it
isn't you. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> Um but does that make any sense?
>> I remember when I gave my UN speech
about he for she and about feminism and
women's rights and people started
stopping me because of things that I had
come from me and that I had said. It
felt like a very significant transition
for me because I for the first time I
felt like I could look someone in the
eye and receive and accept something
that they were saying because I I felt
like it actually had something to do
with me and I wasn't just kind of a like
a custodian of something sacred which I
did take very seriously and I still do
but it had been a direct transmission
from me and I think that's why writing
has become so important to me is because
it's a way that I
say things directly and that feels
really meaningful. Yeah, I love I love
the word you just used there of the
difference between being a custodian
and you know direct transmission you
said and and that's such an interesting
way to think about it and I think each
and every one of us don't want to be
known as a lawyer or an accountant or a
doctor or a like that yes that's a part
of us and it's a role we play in society
and it of course brings significance and
value and worth and all of these
wonderful things but I think everyone
wants to be something beyond that And no
one wants to be that in their home. And
no one wants to be that with their
friends. And
>> no one no one want and and me included,
by the way. It's like I I try and me and
my f one of my friends who's a who's a
well-known stand-up comic, we always
joke about how
>> he hates to be asked to tell jokes on
command and and I try with my friends to
not say smart. I try not to say
thoughtful revelatory things because of
my friends. I just want to be like I I
don't want to have to coach someone's
marriage or solve their thing. I I don't
want to do that. Like I I just want to
be and and so even for someone who love
who is doing direct transmission a lot
more of the time even then there's a
feeling of well I don't want to say
anything profound in this conversation.
>> I need to put this down.
>> Yeah. I need to put the one down. Right.
>> Yes. Yeah. I think a big piece of me
like understanding again like why I
needed to take a minute is that like
even being the person
who was promoting the work became a kind
of role like Emma Watson became this
like avatar this this person that I
identified with but also kind of didn't
she'd become reproduced so many times
over and and kind of had become so
loaded by all of this different stuff
that I she almost felt too heavy to
carry. Like I kind of was like
I don't even know if I can if I can be
that anymore. Like I like you know
I went on a date like 2 years ago and
like it was the best confession ever.
But I was like messaging this person.
And they were like, "Emma," and he was
like, "Can I just say something? Like,
Emma Watson makes me anxious." And I was
like, "Emma Watson makes me anxious,
too. That's so good." Are on the same
page. Like, I get it. Like,
>> I I can't even be her. I I don't know
how to be her. Live up to to what I look
like on the cover of a magazine. I don't
look like that. Like, I I can't I don't
know. I don't even know how to touch
what that person's become. That was kind
of a funny realization at some point
where I was like, I really need to step
off this thing cuz I just once you've I
don't know there's such a glamorization
that comes hand inhand with being a
public famous person, especially if
you're a woman, like I feel I feel so
envious of my male co-stars who can just
put on a t-shirt and show up without
like this like whole rigma roll of kind
of becoming being acceptable enough to
be on camera and
like kudos to Pamela Anderson recently
just like doing the thing because it's
like the amount of courage it will have
taken to do that like I cannot even
begin to express to you it's wild the
the expectations are
are
insane it's impossible so
so
>> short on vacation
>> private space yeah just the the the the
the beauty expectations are so difficult
to reach and the bar gets raised all the
time. So, it's like you're on this
constantly like I don't know, it's like
a some sort of like like Survivors
Island game show beauty nightmare where
you know, I don't know. It's it's it's
nuts. So I Yeah, I think part of also
not feeling like Emma Watson is just
like the whole like glam squad culture
of of it all is
it's intense.
It's yeah it's so fascinating because
there's almost like this this learning
of becoming >> you know becoming Emma Watson becoming
>> you know becoming Emma Watson becoming you know being all the roles you play
you know being all the roles you play and then it almost feels like what
and then it almost feels like what you're saying is there was a moment you
you're saying is there was a moment you wanted to step off and unlearn what that
wanted to step off and unlearn what that meant.
meant. >> Totally.
>> Totally. >> But that seems really hard.
>> But that seems really hard. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Because
>> Because >> Yes. Learning it was hard enough and
>> Yes. Learning it was hard enough and then to unlearn it when it's linked to
then to unlearn it when it's linked to >> your work, your finances, your worth,
>> your work, your finances, your worth, your friendship, community, connection,
your friendship, community, connection, all of the where you live.
all of the where you live. >> How do you even begin to unlearn being
>> How do you even begin to unlearn being Emma Watson?
Emma Watson? >> It's a knotted ball you have to sort of
>> It's a knotted ball you have to sort of unravel very carefully and
unravel very carefully and >> carefully. That's it. Yeah.
>> carefully. That's it. Yeah. >> Yeah. I think
>> Yeah. I think >> it's not like a wrecking ball. like
>> it's not like a wrecking ball. like you're not just
you're not just >> I mean some things had to be done like
>> I mean some things had to be done like the wrecking ball honestly and then some
the wrecking ball honestly and then some parts of it were like a much slower more
parts of it were like a much slower more gentle teasing out but I mean I don't
gentle teasing out but I mean I don't know if you find this but I imagine that
know if you find this but I imagine that a lot of your friendships are made
a lot of your friendships are made through the podcast and made through
through the podcast and made through your work and there's kind of this like
your work and there's kind of this like non-separation between your home and
non-separation between your home and your family and your relationship and
your family and your relationship and the podcast your but tied tied into that
the podcast your but tied tied into that there's also like the very real some
there's also like the very real some people will be wanting you to reference
people will be wanting you to reference their new book or like promote something
their new book or like promote something for them or whatever and like navigating
for them or whatever and like navigating that so many of these threads are
that so many of these threads are entwined. Does it ever start to feel
entwined. Does it ever start to feel like you're like, "Wow, this is a lot."
like you're like, "Wow, this is a lot." People ask me all the time, "Do you ever
People ask me all the time, "Do you ever wonder why people
wonder why people want to hang out with you or be your
want to hang out with you or be your friend or whatever?" And
friend or whatever?" And does that ever get complicated for you?
does that ever get complicated for you? >> I think because my direct transmission
>> I think because my direct transmission is so clear,
is so clear, >> that if anyone in the industry wants to
>> that if anyone in the industry wants to connect,
connect, >> Yeah. there's usually quite a distinct
>> Yeah. there's usually quite a distinct journey that they're on
journey that they're on >> that mine can support or help with as a
>> that mine can support or help with as a friend or in in a more formal capacity
friend or in in a more formal capacity and
and >> that I deeply enjoy and I'm grateful for
>> that I deeply enjoy and I'm grateful for because
because >> people are not inviting me out to crazy
>> people are not inviting me out to crazy parties
parties >> and I'm happy. Yeah, they're not. Yeah.
>> and I'm happy. Yeah, they're not. Yeah. They don't think I'm fun enough. Yeah. I
They don't think I'm fun enough. Yeah. I just I just saw I just saw a clip of the
just I just saw I just saw a clip of the other day of Austin Butler saying he's
other day of Austin Butler saying he's he's he does he's never been invited to
he's he does he's never been invited to a bachelor party before and I was like I
a bachelor party before and I was like I couldn't believe it. But but that that
couldn't believe it. But but that that kind of feel like I don't get invited to
kind of feel like I don't get invited to crazy parties and and I'm grateful for
crazy parties and and I'm grateful for that. I don't that's not really a part
that. I don't that's not really a part of my life, right?
of my life, right? >> Unless it's a spiritual party and then
>> Unless it's a spiritual party and then then I'm all game and uh uh but but
then I'm all game and uh uh but but there isn't that. And so sometimes I
there isn't that. And so sometimes I think it's a good my direct transmission
think it's a good my direct transmission is a good protective mechanism because I
is a good protective mechanism because I don't really get asked to come to things
don't really get asked to come to things but then at the same time it takes me to
but then at the same time it takes me to get to know someone deeply. Like I just
get to know someone deeply. Like I just traveled with a friend uh to Greece and
traveled with a friend uh to Greece and we played and I don't think they were
we played and I don't think they were anticipating this but we played three
anticipating this but we played three nights of poker from midnight to 7:00
nights of poker from midnight to 7:00 a.m. and it was amazing and I loved it
a.m. and it was amazing and I loved it and I had the best time and I don't
and I had the best time and I don't think they expected me to do that. They
think they expected me to do that. They expect me to get to bed early but I was
expect me to get to bed early but I was on vacation and I was like game. Yeah,
on vacation and I was like game. Yeah, exactly. and I won. So I was like, you
exactly. and I won. So I was like, you know, I'll take it. And I'm very
know, I'll take it. And I'm very competitive in that way and I enjoy it.
competitive in that way and I enjoy it. And so I think what it is for me is I I
And so I think what it is for me is I I think there's a big thing for me has
think there's a big thing for me has been from
been from I grew up as part of a big community.
I grew up as part of a big community. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> Uh in London.
>> Uh in London. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And a big spiritual community that I
>> And a big spiritual community that I became a part of when I was young. And I
became a part of when I was young. And I think that what I found is it's very
think that what I found is it's very difficult to discern for people
difficult to discern for people externally and even for people in that
externally and even for people in that community as to how close they were to
community as to how close they were to me.
me. >> Right.
>> Right. >> And so there are some people that assume
>> And so there are some people that assume that because we sat in a class together
that because we sat in a class together and there were 200 people in the class.
and there were 200 people in the class. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> But now that their opinion on me or that
>> But now that their opinion on me or that their relationship with me is close
their relationship with me is close >> when in actuality I've never had a
>> when in actuality I've never had a one-to-one conversation with that
one-to-one conversation with that person.
person. >> And so now their opinion matters to the
>> And so now their opinion matters to the outside world. It matters to the media.
outside world. It matters to the media. it matters to whatever, but I actually
it matters to whatever, but I actually don't know that person and they don't
don't know that person and they don't really know me,
really know me, >> right?
>> right? >> It's just so that we went to the same
>> It's just so that we went to the same congregation in the same year which has
congregation in the same year which has lots thousands of people in it. And so I
lots thousands of people in it. And so I struggle with that and then I also
struggle with that and then I also struggle with
struggle with >> people coming up to me and saying, "Oh,
>> people coming up to me and saying, "Oh, Jay, I've known you for 20 years and you
Jay, I've known you for 20 years and you know, like from back in the day at the
know, like from back in the day at the temple and but I'm like we didn't like
temple and but I'm like we didn't like we didn't ever have an like a
we didn't ever have an like a conversation." And I still have all my
conversation." And I still have all my best friends from that community that
best friends from that community that are still my closest friends
are still my closest friends >> and they also feel the same way because
>> and they also feel the same way because they see it. And so I think I find that
they see it. And so I think I find that very difficult.
very difficult. >> Yeah, that's true.
>> Yeah, that's true. >> Is is hard to navigate because it's not
>> Is is hard to navigate because it's not that I don't have positive feelings
that I don't have positive feelings towards people or the community or
towards people or the community or anything. I do. But I struggle with
anything. I do. But I struggle with >> people feeling they know me when they
>> people feeling they know me when they never did,
never did, >> right?
>> right? >> But they've almost created a story
>> But they've almost created a story within their mind that they really knew
within their mind that they really knew me well. And because it was a big
me well. And because it was a big community, this isn't a group of school
community, this isn't a group of school friends or something which I'm still
friends or something which I'm still really close with. It's more this
really close with. It's more this expanded community which you were just
expanded community which you were just visible in, right?
visible in, right? >> Not even audible or
>> Not even audible or >> or if that makes any sense.
>> or if that makes any sense. >> No, that makes perfect sense. I think
>> No, that makes perfect sense. I think >> yeah, being part of a larger community
>> yeah, being part of a larger community would be tricky to navigate with Yeah.
would be tricky to navigate with Yeah. with the kind of I guess like being a
with the kind of I guess like being a famous person in essence is like lots of
famous person in essence is like lots of people can project lots of things onto
people can project lots of things onto you and like if they had some level of
you and like if they had some level of contact with you it makes those kinds of
contact with you it makes those kinds of projections a lot easier and then you're
projections a lot easier and then you're like oh wow we're in a completely
like oh wow we're in a completely different like your experience of this
different like your experience of this is so different from mine.
is so different from mine. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and yeah, and I mean
>> Yeah. Yeah. And and yeah, and I mean yours is like a million x that and you
yours is like a million x that and you know I can't imagine
know I can't imagine >> I can't I can't imagine I can't imagine
>> I can't I can't imagine I can't imagine how hard dating is
how hard dating is >> like you talked about in some of the
>> like you talked about in some of the journal reflections that you sent me
journal reflections that you sent me like this idea of just like
like this idea of just like >> dating is hard as a 20-year-old
>> dating is hard as a 20-year-old 30-year-old woman anyway.
30-year-old woman anyway. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And then to add your life to it.
>> And then to add your life to it. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Talk to me. You've referenced it a
>> Talk to me. You've referenced it a couple of times in conversations you've
couple of times in conversations you've had. Like
had. Like >> what does it feel like when you're
>> what does it feel like when you're having a normal conversation and someone
having a normal conversation and someone goes, "Wait a minute, you're
goes, "Wait a minute, you're >> Hermione Granger, Emma Watson, you know,
>> Hermione Granger, Emma Watson, you know, list goes on." Yeah.
list goes on." Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, it does it does feel like
>> Yeah. I mean, it does it does feel like my avatar enters the room unexpectedly
my avatar enters the room unexpectedly all of a sudden and then I'm like
all of a sudden and then I'm like navigating a completely different
navigating a completely different conversation if someone hasn't figured
conversation if someone hasn't figured out that it's me yet. And that can feel
out that it's me yet. And that can feel really dehumanizing and sometimes quite
really dehumanizing and sometimes quite kind of seeing someone's like behavior
kind of seeing someone's like behavior like completely switch and turn and
like completely switch and turn and change can be kind of a jarring
change can be kind of a jarring experience.
experience. I think what's nice is at the very least
I think what's nice is at the very least like dating for everyone is a is a
like dating for everyone is a is a basically a complete disaster and
basically a complete disaster and free-for-all. So, like I feel like I'm
free-for-all. So, like I feel like I'm in good company in that sense. But I
in good company in that sense. But I think it's funny occasionally people
think it's funny occasionally people will apologize to me for the fact
will apologize to me for the fact they've not seen my films and I will be
they've not seen my films and I will be like please don't apologize. That is
like please don't apologize. That is bliss to me like music to my ears that
bliss to me like music to my ears that like you're not going to constantly be
like you're not going to constantly be navigating and me also navigating with
navigating and me also navigating with you. This projection of me or this Emma
you. This projection of me or this Emma Watson avatar person will not be this
Watson avatar person will not be this ghost in the room. So, um, that's
ghost in the room. So, um, that's happened a few times where people have
happened a few times where people have been like, "I'm really sorry." And I'm
been like, "I'm really sorry." And I'm like, "Please apologize. I'm so
like, "Please apologize. I'm so relieved. I'm so incredibly relieved."
relieved. I'm so incredibly relieved." >> And then you realize they have the box
>> And then you realize they have the box that later on.
that later on. >> Yeah. No. I'm like, "God, I hope not."
>> Yeah. No. I'm like, "God, I hope not." But I mean, I guess like I want people
But I mean, I guess like I want people to appreciate my work, but I think
to appreciate my work, but I think knowing you don't have to navigate that
knowing you don't have to navigate that extra like degree of weirdness is
extra like degree of weirdness is uh helpful, a relief. How do you help
uh helpful, a relief. How do you help people get to know the real you at this
people get to know the real you at this stage in your life?
stage in your life? >> You know, I wrote this play that I
>> You know, I wrote this play that I actually sent to you to read, but I
actually sent to you to read, but I actually read parts of it to people um
actually read parts of it to people um because I find that trying to explain
because I find that trying to explain sometimes how weird it is to be me.
sometimes how weird it is to be me. Like I almost need AIDS. like it's not
Like I almost need AIDS. like it's not it's so difficult to convey like how
it's so difficult to convey like how weird it is and how surreal sometimes
weird it is and how surreal sometimes that I sometimes I'll just be like can I
that I sometimes I'll just be like can I just like weed you this thing I wrote
just like weed you this thing I wrote because I think it's going to shortcut
because I think it's going to shortcut you somewhere and so that's actually
you somewhere and so that's actually been incredibly helpful and I'm I'm so
been incredibly helpful and I'm I'm so glad I I went and did this this creative
glad I I went and did this this creative writing masters and I've spent more time
writing masters and I've spent more time writing about my experiences because
writing about my experiences because sometimes I can't even articulate it to
sometimes I can't even articulate it to myself like how how are you supposed to
myself like how how are you supposed to explain something to someone else you
explain something to someone else you can't really even understand for
can't really even understand for yourself? So, I think writing, creative
yourself? So, I think writing, creative writing, making art has been the best
writing, making art has been the best therapy I've ever done because it's
therapy I've ever done because it's helped me get clarity and also just be
helped me get clarity and also just be able to laugh at myself and laugh at the
able to laugh at myself and laugh at the situation. I think one-on-one therapy
situation. I think one-on-one therapy can be amazing, but like there is a kind
can be amazing, but like there is a kind of intensity and a seriousness to that
of intensity and a seriousness to that that maybe when you're writing something
that maybe when you're writing something down and when I wrote the play, I wrote
down and when I wrote the play, I wrote it for my friends and family and I was
it for my friends and family and I was able to kind of be more bring more of
able to kind of be more bring more of myself to the picture in a way which is
myself to the picture in a way which is someone who's like this is just nuts.
someone who's like this is just nuts. like I just can't like I can't sometimes
like I just can't like I can't sometimes I just genuinely cannot believe that my
I just genuinely cannot believe that my life is my life and um
life is my life and um I need a place I can put that.
I need a place I can put that. >> Yeah, I I loved So just for everyone
>> Yeah, I I loved So just for everyone who's you know hearing about the
who's you know hearing about the referencing of this play, Emma wrote a
referencing of this play, Emma wrote a play
play >> which helped her closest friends and
>> which helped her closest friends and family understand her experience of life
family understand her experience of life basically.
basically. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Right. Is that a bad description as a
>> Right. Is that a bad description as a >> No, no, it's not a bad description. But
>> No, no, it's not a bad description. But like specifically, I wrote the play
like specifically, I wrote the play about me transitioning from basically
about me transitioning from basically being a full-time actress,
being a full-time actress, >> an activist to trying to move home and
>> an activist to trying to move home and like be a normal student and attend a
like be a normal student and attend a normal university as
normal university as a super famous person. And I I basically
a super famous person. And I I basically kept a journal of what those experiences
kept a journal of what those experiences were like and chronicled them for my
were like and chronicled them for my friends and family for about a year and
friends and family for about a year and then performed it as a onewoman show at
then performed it as a onewoman show at the end of the first year and handed
the end of the first year and handed that in as my as my first year piece of
that in as my as my first year piece of work and Yeah. Yeah.
work and Yeah. Yeah. >> Did it again. E
>> Did it again. E >> it got a distinction.
>> it got a distinction. >> Oh, amazing. Great. There we go. I love
>> Oh, amazing. Great. There we go. I love it. It actually did. Not that that was
it. It actually did. Not that that was the point, but it kind of wasn't the
the point, but it kind of wasn't the point, but I think the coolest thing was
point, but I think the coolest thing was was like I read it for my roommate, for
was like I read it for my roommate, for example, who's belonging with me for 7
example, who's belonging with me for 7 years, and he was like, "Wait, wait,
years, and he was like, "Wait, wait, stop, stop, stop, stop." He's like, "Is
stop, stop, stop, stop." He's like, "Is this actually how you feel? Like, do you
this actually how you feel? Like, do you actually feel this?" And I was like,
actually feel this?" And I was like, "Yeah, I wouldn't have written it if I
"Yeah, I wouldn't have written it if I didn't." And he was like, "I had no idea
didn't." And he was like, "I had no idea that this was how you felt." And this is
that this was how you felt." And this is someone I live with. And so for me who I
someone I live with. And so for me who I perceive myself to be this like massive
perceive myself to be this like massive open book and actually I realized I was
open book and actually I realized I was like wow I think I'm doing a good job of
like wow I think I'm doing a good job of bringing the people that I love along
bringing the people that I love along with me on what this feels like and
with me on what this feels like and actually I'm not saying nearly enough or
actually I'm not saying nearly enough or explaining it in a way where it makes
explaining it in a way where it makes sense. And so even my parents were just
sense. And so even my parents were just like couldn't believe it really. Yeah.
like couldn't believe it really. Yeah. >> I'm sure they were brought to tears by
>> I'm sure they were brought to tears by parts of it. I mean, I was I was so
parts of it. I mean, I was I was so moved by it and I really hope you do one
moved by it and I really hope you do one day make it a uh a production in some
day make it a uh a production in some capacity because it
capacity because it >> it was so moving and so powerful and it
>> it was so moving and so powerful and it was Emma honestly it was what every
was Emma honestly it was what every public figure
public figure >> has ever tried to explain to me about
>> has ever tried to explain to me about their experience yet put so succinctly
their experience yet put so succinctly powerfully and meaningfully that anyone
powerfully and meaningfully that anyone could relate to it and I think anyone
could relate to it and I think anyone meaning anyone who's ever felt
meaning anyone who's ever felt misunderstood stood to loved for what
misunderstood stood to loved for what they have and not who they are. Seen for
they have and not who they are. Seen for parts of themselves and not all of
parts of themselves and not all of themselves. And I I really believe it
themselves. And I I really believe it would be such a service to everyone to
would be such a service to everyone to share it one day in however way you
share it one day in however way you decide to because honestly I was
decide to because honestly I was gripped. I was completely captivated. I
gripped. I was completely captivated. I couldn't put it down. I feel like I'm
couldn't put it down. I feel like I'm going to read it again and again and
going to read it again and again and again. It's not something that I think
again. It's not something that I think you read once. Not only are you a
you read once. Not only are you a brilliant writer, but it is so true and
brilliant writer, but it is so true and honest. And for everyone who's listening
honest. And for everyone who's listening and watching, I think the lesson from it
and watching, I think the lesson from it for me is that your therapy
for me is that your therapy could turn into something creative that
could turn into something creative that when you shared that with me when we
when you shared that with me when we were speaking on the phone, I was so in
were speaking on the phone, I was so in awe of that that therapy in onetoone
awe of that that therapy in onetoone setting or in whatever way of healing
setting or in whatever way of healing you believe in,
you believe in, >> if it turns into something you have to
>> if it turns into something you have to put together to communicate to others,
put together to communicate to others, that's the revelation. Like the
that's the revelation. Like the revelation is in that process, not in
revelation is in that process, not in the listening, telling, share, uh,
the listening, telling, share, uh, speaking, that that's great and that's a
speaking, that that's great and that's a part of it. But if you can go one step
part of it. But if you can go one step ahead
ahead >> truly, I I feel this like urgency and
>> truly, I I feel this like urgency and like desperation to communicate this
like desperation to communicate this specific piece, which is like make art
specific piece, which is like make art about your experiences. Like the
about your experiences. Like the neurosis of being a writer, anyone
neurosis of being a writer, anyone making anything is like, I don't have
making anything is like, I don't have anything valuable to say. It's all been
anything valuable to say. It's all been said before. This is so self-indulgent.
said before. This is so self-indulgent. This is so narcissistic. Who even wants
This is so narcissistic. Who even wants to hear this? This is bad. I thought all
to hear this? This is bad. I thought all of those thoughts probably most days as
of those thoughts probably most days as I wrote this. But trust me, like
I wrote this. But trust me, like whatever you think people know about you
whatever you think people know about you or they know about your life or how you
or they know about your life or how you feel about it, they don't. And they need
feel about it, they don't. And they need you to write poems, write songs, make
you to write poems, write songs, make pictures, write plays. And you don't
pictures, write plays. And you don't need to be someone with the title of an
need to be someone with the title of an artist to be able to do that. You really
artist to be able to do that. You really don't. And in fact, I have to write on
don't. And in fact, I have to write on my mirror. I have it written on my door,
my mirror. I have it written on my door, I am an artist because I don't think
I am an artist because I don't think anyone feels like they deserve that
anyone feels like they deserve that title. I've been making films and
title. I've been making films and writing and making art since I was 9
writing and making art since I was 9 years old. And I don't feel like I
years old. And I don't feel like I deserve that title. And I have to work
deserve that title. And I have to work at it all the time to feel like I have
at it all the time to feel like I have anything that's worthwhile saying. I
anything that's worthwhile saying. I really understand the struggle. I really
really understand the struggle. I really really do. But there is something about
really do. But there is something about doing it and like having a physical
doing it and like having a physical thing because I think so many of these
thing because I think so many of these thoughts and feelings live in our heads
thoughts and feelings live in our heads and it's not a great place for them to
and it's not a great place for them to live. They need to come out somewhere
live. They need to come out somewhere and once you can put them somewhere then
and once you can put them somewhere then you're free. being understood or feeling
you're free. being understood or feeling like you're understood by the people
like you're understood by the people around you has got to be the best
around you has got to be the best feeling in the world. And I think it's
feeling in the world. And I think it's what we're looking for when we
what we're looking for when we do so many things, but often that's not
do so many things, but often that's not the way to find it. And
the way to find it. And >> I just God Yeah. If I honestly I want to
>> I just God Yeah. If I honestly I want to go to every person in the street and be
go to every person in the street and be like you need to write a one person show
like you need to write a one person show about your life and then perform it for
about your life and then perform it for your friends and family or like you need
your friends and family or like you need to like you know paint the thing, write
to like you know paint the thing, write the song, like just do it because it's
the song, like just do it because it's kind of one of the best most meaningful
kind of one of the best most meaningful things I've I've done is trying to make
things I've I've done is trying to make sense of
sense of >> sense of it all. Yeah.
>> sense of it all. Yeah. >> And I love that you did it for your
>> And I love that you did it for your family. Like that's the part that proves
family. Like that's the part that proves to me when you say the message of make
to me when you say the message of make your art and
your art and >> you know you don't need to be a
>> you know you don't need to be a full-time actor or director or movie
full-time actor or director or movie filmmaker. It's like you actually lived
filmmaker. It's like you actually lived that part and that's what I love about
that part and that's what I love about it the most is that you didn't make it
it the most is that you didn't make it for a stage or a movie or a documentary
for a stage or a movie or a documentary or whatever.
or whatever. >> And honestly first I wrote it for
>> And honestly first I wrote it for myself. I didn't think I honestly I
myself. I didn't think I honestly I didn't think I had the guts to read this
didn't think I had the guts to read this aloud to anyone. I thought it was just
aloud to anyone. I thought it was just for me and maybe like two other people
for me and maybe like two other people and performing it for my like I didn't
and performing it for my like I didn't even invite my family until like two
even invite my family until like two days before because I just didn't think
days before because I just didn't think I had the courage. Make art for people
I had the courage. Make art for people you love. Like make beautiful things for
you love. Like make beautiful things for people that you love. Just for people
people that you love. Just for people that you love. Like that's one I I I
that you love. Like that's one I I I guess like I had the extraordinary
guess like I had the extraordinary experience of making things for like the
experience of making things for like the world basically from such a young age.
world basically from such a young age. And I I never made anything that I
And I I never made anything that I didn't feel like needed to be shared
didn't feel like needed to be shared publicly. And I remember when I made
publicly. And I remember when I made Little Women, I mean, that's such an
Little Women, I mean, that's such an amazing thing about Louise May Alcott is
amazing thing about Louise May Alcott is that really she wrote those stories for
that really she wrote those stories for her sisters. And so many people's
her sisters. And so many people's journeys and paths start because yeah,
journeys and paths start because yeah, out of love, they wrote them for just
out of love, they wrote them for just one person. There was a certain point I
one person. There was a certain point I remember in my life where I was like,
remember in my life where I was like, "Right, I'm done with university now and
"Right, I'm done with university now and now I'm going to just like focus full
now I'm going to just like focus full what I should be doing is just focusing
what I should be doing is just focusing full-time on being an actress." and you
full-time on being an actress." and you know doing all of that and I had
know doing all of that and I had completely missed actually that Emma the
completely missed actually that Emma the academic, Emma the student, Emma the
academic, Emma the student, Emma the person that needs to needs to constantly
person that needs to needs to constantly be learning things facilitated my
be learning things facilitated my ability to be a famous person and in
ability to be a famous person and in Hollywood and that without her I
Hollywood and that without her I actually couldn't do it. I needed I need
actually couldn't do it. I needed I need to have both and that when one gets
to have both and that when one gets stripped away and like even as I'm and I
stripped away and like even as I'm and I explore this in the play as well like
explore this in the play as well like even as I have returned to some form of
even as I have returned to some form of normaly ordinary life whatever that
normaly ordinary life whatever that looks like to me now like I also can't
looks like to me now like I also can't kill her off completely you know my
kill her off completely you know my public person there's parts of me that
public person there's parts of me that like still does need those outlets and
like still does need those outlets and to do those things too and I'm figuring
to do those things too and I'm figuring out what those are but I think that's
out what those are but I think that's what's so complicated about being human
what's so complicated about being human is is is it's yes and not either or.
is is is it's yes and not either or. It's we need we need to be all of
It's we need we need to be all of ourselves so that we can do the
ourselves so that we can do the extraordinary things that we we want to
extraordinary things that we we want to do. Maybe it's about not leaving parts
do. Maybe it's about not leaving parts of ourselves behind like kind of finding
of ourselves behind like kind of finding a way to keep threading the tapestry of
a way to keep threading the tapestry of all of it.
all of it. >> Yeah, I think that's I I mean you you've
>> Yeah, I think that's I I mean you you've said it so well and I really feel that
said it so well and I really feel that that's what it's been for me.
that's what it's been for me. I feel like as humans, we're very good
I feel like as humans, we're very good at being like, "Okay, this chapter of my
at being like, "Okay, this chapter of my life is over."
life is over." >> And we do it because labeling helps, but
>> And we do it because labeling helps, but it's like you went from being a toddler
it's like you went from being a toddler Yes.
Yes. >> or an infant and then you became, you
>> or an infant and then you became, you know, a teen and then a young adult and
know, a teen and then a young adult and then an adult and then So, we have all
then an adult and then So, we have all these labels and it almost feels like we
these labels and it almost feels like we live our life that way of like, okay, I
live our life that way of like, okay, I was a student at university. If I went
was a student at university. If I went to university and now I am a I have a
to university and now I am a I have a job and I'm an employee or an
job and I'm an employee or an entrepreneur, whatever it is. And labels
entrepreneur, whatever it is. And labels are useful. So I'm not going to say they
are useful. So I'm not going to say they aren't. But what ends up happening is
aren't. But what ends up happening is you start labeling phases of your life,
you start labeling phases of your life, which means now there isn't a yes and
which means now there isn't a yes and it's an either or. So it's like I was an
it's an either or. So it's like I was an actress, now I'm going to be an
actress, now I'm going to be an academic. And it's like, well, no, I'm
academic. And it's like, well, no, I'm an academic and an actress and a
an academic and an actress and a whatever else. Yeah.
whatever else. Yeah. >> You know, and and I think that's what
>> You know, and and I think that's what it's been for me. It's like I know that
it's been for me. It's like I know that the people that know me best will say,
the people that know me best will say, "Jay, I love you because we can talk
"Jay, I love you because we can talk about spirituality. We can talk about
about spirituality. We can talk about business and we can talk about
business and we can talk about communication, media, art, and I love
communication, media, art, and I love you because we can do all those three
you because we can do all those three things in one day. Yes.
things in one day. Yes. >> And I'm like, yes, I feel so seen.
>> And I'm like, yes, I feel so seen. Whereas if someone only said one of
Whereas if someone only said one of those things, I'd feel so limited. And
those things, I'd feel so limited. And what I've realized is
what I've realized is >> I'm now at a place where I've given
>> I'm now at a place where I've given myself permission to be all of myself,
myself permission to be all of myself, >> even if others don't give me permission
>> even if others don't give me permission to be all of those things.
to be all of those things. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Because Yeah. And how amazing to get to
>> Because Yeah. And how amazing to get to that point where I realized for a long
that point where I realized for a long time I was pushing for I need everyone
time I was pushing for I need everyone to understand me and I need them to
to understand me and I need them to understand these decisions and I need
understand these decisions and I need them to understand that I'm all of these
them to understand that I'm all of these things. And I'm like but do you really
things. And I'm like but do you really Emma? Do you actually really need them
Emma? Do you actually really need them to get it or is it enough that you get
to get it or is it enough that you get it? You see it and understand it and
it? You see it and understand it and you're making it possible and giving
you're making it possible and giving yourself permission to do that. And I
yourself permission to do that. And I think once I kind of let go of like,
think once I kind of let go of like, okay, it it matters way more that I
okay, it it matters way more that I accept myself
accept myself >> then that I spend so much energy and
>> then that I spend so much energy and time trying to force other people to see
time trying to force other people to see these things about me. And then
these things about me. And then paradoxically, of course, once you let
paradoxically, of course, once you let go,
go, >> people start getting
>> people start getting which is which is funny.
which is which is funny. >> Emma, how do you how do you see love
>> Emma, how do you how do you see love today?
today? >> God, what a great question.
>> God, what a great question. H. Um,
H. Um, how do I see love today? Oh, okay. I
how do I see love today? Oh, okay. I think I have an answer for this. How
think I have an answer for this. How exciting. I was right there for I was
exciting. I was right there for I was like to say, God, I hope I do. Am I that
like to say, God, I hope I do. Am I that deep? Yeah. Okay. So, um I think that
deep? Yeah. Okay. So, um I think that h we don't talk about love nearly enough
h we don't talk about love nearly enough or I think we need to talk about it so
or I think we need to talk about it so much more because
much more because I had such a not a misunderstanding but
I had such a not a misunderstanding but I think I had a very limited
I think I had a very limited understanding of it for a long time
understanding of it for a long time which was that we see in Disney movies
which was that we see in Disney movies and in Hollywood movies this idea that
and in Hollywood movies this idea that like falling in love once it's sort of
like falling in love once it's sort of happened to you it's like irreversible
happened to you it's like irreversible you know like step into this portal that
you know like step into this portal that you can't get out of anymore because
you can't get out of anymore because you've fallen in love. And actually, I I
you've fallen in love. And actually, I I think falling in love might be quite
think falling in love might be quite easy to do in some ways. That's sort of
easy to do in some ways. That's sort of the easy bit. The hard part is finding
the easy bit. The hard part is finding someone who actually wants to be in a
someone who actually wants to be in a dance with you and be in some form of
dance with you and be in some form of partnership with you. And things like,
partnership with you. And things like, can you argue? Well, can you be is the
can you argue? Well, can you be is the conflict that you have generative? And
conflict that you have generative? And can you make someone else feel safe?
can you make someone else feel safe? Like, and when I say safe, I don't mean
Like, and when I say safe, I don't mean like out of physical danger. I mean
like out of physical danger. I mean like, can you either respond to a text
like, can you either respond to a text message quickly enough that doesn't send
message quickly enough that doesn't send the other person into like a complete
the other person into like a complete freef fall and or not pelt them with so
freef fall and or not pelt them with so many that they feel completely
many that they feel completely overwhelmed and flooded. And like that
overwhelmed and flooded. And like that kind of like compatibility and that kind
kind of like compatibility and that kind of willingness to be in this like is
of willingness to be in this like is this okay for you? Does this feel good
this okay for you? Does this feel good to you? This is how it feels for me. And
to you? This is how it feels for me. And like there's like that constant back and
like there's like that constant back and forth and that constant check-in is like
forth and that constant check-in is like a a game of um check-in in a way of like
a a game of um check-in in a way of like can you find someone who's willing to be
can you find someone who's willing to be as vulnerable as it necessarily requires
as vulnerable as it necessarily requires I think to like figure out those micro
I think to like figure out those micro adjustments until you're sort of in some
adjustments until you're sort of in some kind of dance with someone else. And
kind of dance with someone else. And that is a very different understanding
that is a very different understanding that I have come to of what love is than
that I have come to of what love is than I had. I mean like loving someone is so
I had. I mean like loving someone is so much more complex than the projections
much more complex than the projections that we put on someone or even like just
that we put on someone or even like just lusting or having some small feeling for
lusting or having some small feeling for someone else. But I just think that we
someone else. But I just think that we have such a black and white idea about
have such a black and white idea about what love is supposed to be. And I wish
what love is supposed to be. And I wish I'd understood more before I went into
I'd understood more before I went into battle. I do. I really, really do.
battle. I do. I really, really do. >> What do you think love is, Jay?
>> What do you think love is, Jay? >> Oh, wow. Oh my gosh. You're flipping
>> Oh, wow. Oh my gosh. You're flipping this back, Emma. This is about you. It's
this back, Emma. This is about you. It's not about
not about >> This is a conversation.
>> This is a conversation. >> I know. I just
>> I know. I just >> Well, does any of what I've said
>> Well, does any of what I've said resonate?
resonate? >> It does. It does. It resonates a lot.
>> It does. It does. It resonates a lot. >> I'm on the right track, Jay. I need you
>> I'm on the right track, Jay. I need you to tell me.
to tell me. >> I think it resonates a lot. I I grew up
>> I think it resonates a lot. I I grew up in a I grew up with a very film naive
in a I grew up with a very film naive Disney version of what love was. Like I
Disney version of what love was. Like I love that version of love.
love that version of love. >> I love the idea that
>> I love the idea that >> love was this really romantic, really
>> love was this really romantic, really sweet
sweet >> writing letters every day kind of love.
>> writing letters every day kind of love. Like that that's the love I dreamed of
Like that that's the love I dreamed of and love I thought of as a kid at least.
and love I thought of as a kid at least. >> Yeah. And then,
>> Yeah. And then, you know, I think I
you know, I think I realized that you do all of that with
realized that you do all of that with the first person you're with in your
the first person you're with in your teens and and you kind of think it's the
teens and and you kind of think it's the real thing, but then they're in a mood
real thing, but then they're in a mood every night for no reason and you're
every night for no reason and you're just people pleasing and trying to
just people pleasing and trying to figure out what's going on and you think
figure out what's going on and you think it's all about making that person happy
it's all about making that person happy and so you mold and you bend and you,
and so you mold and you bend and you, >> you know, sabotage parts of yourself.
>> you know, sabotage parts of yourself. And I realized very quickly that
And I realized very quickly that >> that wasn't love. And I think
>> that wasn't love. And I think >> what's really interesting about love now
>> what's really interesting about love now is that
is that >> marrying my wife who I've been with now
>> marrying my wife who I've been with now for 12 years and married for nine.
for 12 years and married for nine. >> Wow.
>> Wow. >> And so it's the longest time I've ever
>> And so it's the longest time I've ever spent with anyone and also
spent with anyone and also >> the only person I've been with after I
>> the only person I've been with after I left the monastery. And so there's been
left the monastery. And so there's been a certain chapter of my life that I've
a certain chapter of my life that I've been with her for.
been with her for. >> And I really feel she's taught me more
>> And I really feel she's taught me more about love for two reasons. The first is
about love for two reasons. The first is she doesn't subscribe to any of the
she doesn't subscribe to any of the movie Disney versions of Love.
movie Disney versions of Love. >> Wow. At all.
>> Wow. At all. >> Oh my god. What education did she have?
>> Oh my god. What education did she have? Where can I get it?
Where can I get it? >> Yeah. Literally. And and the other part
>> Yeah. Literally. And and the other part is that I think she's the only person
is that I think she's the only person I've ever loved enough to be taught by.
I've ever loved enough to be taught by. >> Oh my god.
>> Oh my god. >> Which is like a really interesting part
>> Which is like a really interesting part of love that I think's missed. M
of love that I think's missed. M >> and I feel like love is the humility to
>> and I feel like love is the humility to feel. It's humility on both parts
feel. It's humility on both parts because the other person's not actively
because the other person's not actively teaching
teaching and you're actively receiving.
and you're actively receiving. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> So it's this really strange dance
>> So it's this really strange dance between it's almost like if you're
between it's almost like if you're dancing.
dancing. >> There has to be a humility on both sides
>> There has to be a humility on both sides because
because >> it's not that one person leads and the
>> it's not that one person leads and the other person follows. It's the other
other person follows. It's the other person's kind of like should we do this?
person's kind of like should we do this? Should we try this? there's a anxiety
Should we try this? there's a anxiety and a humility in requesting that and
and a humility in requesting that and the other person gets to choose to go
the other person gets to choose to go with it or not go and say no we're going
with it or not go and say no we're going to go in this direction and that's
to go in this direction and that's >> a great dance to watch and I feel like
>> a great dance to watch and I feel like with my wife
with my wife >> she's never directly taught me
>> she's never directly taught me >> but she's challenged me in ways that
>> but she's challenged me in ways that >> if other people would have I might have
>> if other people would have I might have left.
left. >> Oh my god, how beautiful.
>> Oh my god, how beautiful. >> And so why am I staying? And then you go
>> And so why am I staying? And then you go okay I'm staying because there's love.
okay I'm staying because there's love. And so love is the ability to be taught
And so love is the ability to be taught without teaching and
without teaching and >> learning without
>> learning without feeling like you're being led or misled.
feeling like you're being led or misled. And that for me has been a really
And that for me has been a really beautiful lesson. And if I just said
beautiful lesson. And if I just said this to my wife out loud right now, she
this to my wife out loud right now, she would just laugh because she'd just find
would just laugh because she'd just find it funny. And then and then she's Yeah.
it funny. And then and then she's Yeah. She she also taught me how to love me
She she also taught me how to love me for who I was and not what I had.
for who I was and not what I had. Because I think
Because I think >> a lot of men go through this, at least
>> a lot of men go through this, at least men that I'm friends with and that I've
men that I'm friends with and that I've spoken to, that
spoken to, that >> we want people to respect us for our
>> we want people to respect us for our success.
success. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> And rever us for our accomplishments.
>> And rever us for our accomplishments. It's how men have been adored since the
It's how men have been adored since the beginning of time for going out and
beginning of time for going out and getting the food or going out there and
getting the food or going out there and winning the battle or conquering a
winning the battle or conquering a nation. And that's what you were known
nation. And that's what you were known for. And so my wife's been with me since
for. And so my wife's been with me since before my career took off and I had any
before my career took off and I had any success. And I think as I gained
success. And I think as I gained success, I think my immaturity was to
success, I think my immaturity was to want her to love me for that more. And
want her to love me for that more. And she never did. She just didn't do it.
she never did. She just didn't do it. >> Wow.
>> Wow. >> And it drove me crazy. And she didn't do
>> And it drove me crazy. And she didn't do it in a rejecting way or in a
it in a rejecting way or in a >> in a it just didn't make a difference to
>> in a it just didn't make a difference to her.
her. >> This isn't why I love you. And and it
>> This isn't why I love you. And and it took me a long time to wrap my head
took me a long time to wrap my head around that and realize because you know
around that and realize because you know those are the times when you could start
those are the times when you could start liking other people who love you for
liking other people who love you for what you have achieved and what you have
what you have achieved and what you have built and all the rest of it. And I
built and all the rest of it. And I think I just have so much respect for
think I just have so much respect for her that
her that >> she never gave in on that.
>> she never gave in on that. >> Yeah. She never gave in and and she
>> Yeah. She never gave in and and she helped me love myself for who I am. And
helped me love myself for who I am. And I think that's the point that I think I
I think that's the point that I think I would have if I had met someone else, I
would have if I had met someone else, I would have valued myself for very
would have valued myself for very different reasons. and knowing you're
different reasons. and knowing you're with someone who truly is with you
with someone who truly is with you because of who you are and your
because of who you are and your character and that's what they honor.
character and that's what they honor. >> And and I think that word honor and
>> And and I think that word honor and respect probably the last thing I'd say
respect probably the last thing I'd say I think we always say like love is
I think we always say like love is respect and based on respect but
respect and based on respect but >> I wrote a list of things that I
>> I wrote a list of things that I >> I tried to be clear with myself about
>> I tried to be clear with myself about what it is I was really looking for and
what it is I was really looking for and I really want and one is someone that I
I really want and one is someone that I can learn from. So it's really
can learn from. So it's really interesting that you said learning
interesting that you said learning without teaching, teaching without
without teaching, teaching without learning and that kind of reciprocal
learning and that kind of reciprocal like I really want to be with someone
like I really want to be with someone that I can learn some learn from and I
that I can learn some learn from and I hope that yeah as you say has the
hope that yeah as you say has the humility to be willing to learn from me.
humility to be willing to learn from me. But the other thing is I think it's why
But the other thing is I think it's why I'm so obsessed with the musical musical
I'm so obsessed with the musical musical Hamilton and why so many people have
Hamilton and why so many people have been. Like maybe this is it's so funny
been. Like maybe this is it's so funny that we're on on the purpose podcast,
that we're on on the purpose podcast, but like are you with someone who cuz
but like are you with someone who cuz obviously what you have with someone is
obviously what you have with someone is is wonderful, right? Like what you two
is wonderful, right? Like what you two share together, but if you can be in
share together, but if you can be in service of a vision that you both share
service of a vision that you both share or at the very least are you willing to
or at the very least are you willing to honor and give dignity to the work of
honor and give dignity to the work of the other person and whatever their
the other person and whatever their vision or mission is in this world. That
vision or mission is in this world. That to me seems far more sustainable than
to me seems far more sustainable than anything else. And so I guess my big
anything else. And so I guess my big hope or wish would be that I met someone
hope or wish would be that I met someone who feels like what I want to do in the
who feels like what I want to do in the world. Yes, that I'm important, but they
world. Yes, that I'm important, but they also feel that what I'm here to do is
also feel that what I'm here to do is important to them, too. And in some way
important to them, too. And in some way intersects with what they're here to do.
intersects with what they're here to do. >> I couldn't agree more. It's exactly what
>> I couldn't agree more. It's exactly what I was going to say.
I was going to say. >> Is it?
>> Is it? >> Yeah. that that I think the word respect
>> Yeah. that that I think the word respect and relationship is thrown around a lot
and relationship is thrown around a lot but this is the deepest form of respect
but this is the deepest form of respect where there's a famous quote that I
where there's a famous quote that I don't know who said it but there's a and
don't know who said it but there's a and I would you know you could take the
I would you know you could take the genders out of it now but there's a
genders out of it now but there's a famous quote that says men marry women
famous quote that says men marry women hoping they'll never change
hoping they'll never change >> and women marry men hoping they can
>> and women marry men hoping they can change them and to me wanting someone to
change them and to me wanting someone to never change or wanting to be able to
never change or wanting to be able to change someone are both signs of
change someone are both signs of disrespect
disrespect because
because I think the greatest respect you can
I think the greatest respect you can have is to respect what this person
have is to respect what this person values in this moment and how that
values in this moment and how that evolves and that's their purpose, their
evolves and that's their purpose, their offering, their values.
offering, their values. >> And at no point are you trying to change
>> And at no point are you trying to change them. And I've I've talked about this
them. And I've I've talked about this often where my wife and I I do this
often where my wife and I I do this exercise with couples when I'm working
exercise with couples when I'm working with them, but I've also done it in our
with them, but I've also done it in our relationship. And I ask people to rank
relationship. And I ask people to rank their top three priorities in order.
their top three priorities in order. Wow.
Wow. >> And people do it privately and then they
>> And people do it privately and then they share them.
share them. >> Wow.
>> Wow. >> And so generally one person will put
>> And so generally one person will put themselves first, their partner second,
themselves first, their partner second, and then the kids third.
and then the kids third. And the other person will put the kids
And the other person will put the kids first, the partner second, and
first, the partner second, and themselves third. And the person who put
themselves third. And the person who put themselves third is always mad at the
themselves third is always mad at the person who put themselves first because
person who put themselves first because there's this friction of well wait a
there's this friction of well wait a minute how can you not put the kids
minute how can you not put the kids first
first >> or how can you not put family first or
>> or how can you not put family first or whatever it may be in your given
whatever it may be in your given situation and the other person is like
situation and the other person is like well if I don't put myself first then
well if I don't put myself first then what can I give to you all and that that
what can I give to you all and that that kind of displays this dichotomy and this
kind of displays this dichotomy and this belief we have around love means
belief we have around love means complete sacrifice and love means
complete sacrifice and love means self-sabotage to some degree or love
self-sabotage to some degree or love means putting yourself aside and the
means putting yourself aside and the reality is actually no my goal is to
reality is actually no my goal is to make sure that you live your purpose and
make sure that you live your purpose and greatest vision of yourself
greatest vision of yourself >> and your purpose is to help me do that.
>> and your purpose is to help me do that. When we both do that,
When we both do that, >> everything's poetry.
>> everything's poetry. >> And my wife practiced that and she does
>> And my wife practiced that and she does it naturally. And it's hard to do that
it naturally. And it's hard to do that in a world that constantly reminds you
in a world that constantly reminds you both that sometimes the other person
both that sometimes the other person isn't where you are.
isn't where you are. >> Or, you know, the idea of why haven't
>> Or, you know, the idea of why haven't you had kids yet? Or when are you going
you had kids yet? Or when are you going to be in the same country for longer
to be in the same country for longer than a month? or whatever they may be
than a month? or whatever they may be because it doesn't fit into the norm of
because it doesn't fit into the norm of what relationships look like.
what relationships look like. >> And I was thinking about that with you
>> And I was thinking about that with you as well, like
as well, like >> you know, I know you you talked about
>> you know, I know you you talked about how getting asked the question, when are
how getting asked the question, when are you getting married
you getting married >> or why aren't you married yet?
>> or why aren't you married yet? >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> And that's something every woman's
>> And that's something every woman's hearing. What's your reaction when you
hearing. What's your reaction when you hear that?
hear that? >> I'm just so happy not to be divorced
>> I'm just so happy not to be divorced yet. Like that sounds like a really
yet. Like that sounds like a really negative answer, but I just like I think
negative answer, but I just like I think that we are we're being
that we are we're being pressured and forced into this
pressured and forced into this thing that like I believe is a kind of
thing that like I believe is a kind of miracle. I might never be worthy of it.
miracle. I might never be worthy of it. I hope it happens to me, but like I
I hope it happens to me, but like I don't feel entitled to it. like it will
don't feel entitled to it. like it will either be part of my purpose here and my
either be part of my purpose here and my destiny or it won't. And I think the way
destiny or it won't. And I think the way we treat it as though well why haven't
we treat it as though well why haven't you and this is something that has to
you and this is something that has to happen in this certain
happen in this certain time span and at this certain age in
time span and at this certain age in this kind of way is like the least
this kind of way is like the least romantic thing I can possibly think of.
romantic thing I can possibly think of. Like truly, like if I had tried to get
Like truly, like if I had tried to get married any point basically before about
married any point basically before about a year ago, it would have been carnage.
a year ago, it would have been carnage. I just didn't know myself well enough
I just didn't know myself well enough yet. I didn't have a clear enough idea
yet. I didn't have a clear enough idea of what my purpose, my vision, like how
of what my purpose, my vision, like how I was going to be of service. I didn't
I was going to be of service. I didn't know where I really felt like I needed
know where I really felt like I needed to be. I think I have some of those
to be. I think I have some of those answers now. So when I meet someone, I
answers now. So when I meet someone, I can say, "Hi, I'm Emma. This is what I
can say, "Hi, I'm Emma. This is what I care about. This is where the people I
care about. This is where the people I love the most live. This is where it's
love the most live. This is where it's meaningful for me to be in the world."
meaningful for me to be in the world." And then they can decide whether they
And then they can decide whether they can see that there's a way that I can
can see that there's a way that I can serve what they're trying to do and they
serve what they're trying to do and they can serve what I'm trying to do. But
can serve what I'm trying to do. But before that, like they would have just
before that, like they would have just got like a very mixed signal. I mean,
got like a very mixed signal. I mean, there's some parts of me that have
there's some parts of me that have stayed utterly consistent,
stayed utterly consistent, >> but there are some parts that like I was
>> but there are some parts that like I was really still teasing out and figuring
really still teasing out and figuring out. And I think it's such a violence
out. And I think it's such a violence and it's such a cruelty on people and
and it's such a cruelty on people and especially young people I think to make
especially young people I think to make and especially women to make them feel
and especially women to make them feel like they have no worth or like they
like they have no worth or like they haven't succeeded yet in life because
haven't succeeded yet in life because they haven't forced to its culmination
they haven't forced to its culmination something that I just don't think can or
something that I just don't think can or should ever be
should ever be forced. It's something that like
forced. It's something that like honestly I feel like I've had to earn.
honestly I feel like I've had to earn. I've had to work for to be in a place
I've had to work for to be in a place where I feel like I can look someone in
where I feel like I can look someone in the eye and be able to tell them who I
the eye and be able to tell them who I am and to have some some idea and it
am and to have some some idea and it will change and grow of of what I want
will change and grow of of what I want and what I'm here to do. That takes
and what I'm here to do. That takes work. Like I have like
work. Like I have like really sat with myself in a lot of
really sat with myself in a lot of discomfort and asked myself a lot of
discomfort and asked myself a lot of very difficult questions to be at that
very difficult questions to be at that point. It hasn't happened to me yet.
point. It hasn't happened to me yet. >> I do think everyone's worthy of love,
>> I do think everyone's worthy of love, but I like I I and and I don't think
but I like I I and and I don't think that's what you're saying either. Yeah,
that's what you're saying either. Yeah, >> I think so.
>> I think so. >> I guess maybe like partnership or
>> I guess maybe like partnership or marriage I guess is what we're both
marriage I guess is what we're both saying is like almost a different game.
saying is like almost a different game. Like it's it's almost a different
Like it's it's almost a different playing field actually. Like actually
playing field actually. Like actually co-joining and like properly sharing
co-joining and like properly sharing your life with someone and being in
your life with someone and being in partnership with them
partnership with them >> seems like it's its own thing.
>> seems like it's its own thing. >> It is. It takes so much work and it
>> It is. It takes so much work and it takes so much adjustment and adapting
takes so much adjustment and adapting more than compromising and
more than compromising and sacrificing.
sacrificing. >> There's so much flexibility. There's so
>> There's so much flexibility. There's so much
much >> allowing. It's it's so different at
>> allowing. It's it's so different at different times. Like sometimes patience
different times. Like sometimes patience looks like being by that person's side
looks like being by that person's side and saying nothing.
and saying nothing. >> And sometimes patience means being
>> And sometimes patience means being halfway across the world
halfway across the world >> and not communicating. And sometimes
>> and not communicating. And sometimes patience looks like uh talking and
patience looks like uh talking and listening. Like you know it's it's
listening. Like you know it's it's patience doesn't look like one thing
patience doesn't look like one thing over a a lifespan. And
over a a lifespan. And >> there are parts of my wife that have
>> there are parts of my wife that have stayed exactly the same in 12 years. And
stayed exactly the same in 12 years. And there are parts that have completely
there are parts that have completely changed. And I have a choice every time
changed. And I have a choice every time that happens to learn to love the new
that happens to learn to love the new >> or not. And that's a choice I have to
>> or not. And that's a choice I have to make and she has to make as well. And so
make and she has to make as well. And so there's so much constant choosing and
there's so much constant choosing and constant evolving that it's very easy to
constant evolving that it's very easy to just
just >> it's very easy to be like, "Yeah, I
>> it's very easy to be like, "Yeah, I chose them the day we got married." And
chose them the day we got married." And people always ask me, I'm like, I don't
people always ask me, I'm like, I don't think I even knew who my wife was the
think I even knew who my wife was the day we got married. Like now when I
day we got married. Like now when I think about it, like I loved her, but
think about it, like I loved her, but I had no idea. And and that's what it
I had no idea. And and that's what it should feel like. I don't think if I was
should feel like. I don't think if I was here to say like, yeah, the wedding the
here to say like, yeah, the wedding the wedding day was one of the best days of
wedding day was one of the best days of my life, but it's not the day I loved my
my life, but it's not the day I loved my wife the most.
wife the most. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Because I didn't really even know what I
>> Because I didn't really even know what I was getting myself into.
was getting myself into. >> That's amazing. I was thinking recently
>> That's amazing. I was thinking recently about trust and telling the truth
about trust and telling the truth >> and I realized the scary crazy thing
>> and I realized the scary crazy thing about it seems to me about intimacy is
about it seems to me about intimacy is that it seems to be conditional on your
that it seems to be conditional on your ability to like keep telling the truth
ability to like keep telling the truth >> and perhaps even revealing deeper and
>> and perhaps even revealing deeper and deeper and deeper truths
deeper and deeper truths at the risk that that truth might mean
at the risk that that truth might mean that that person might not continue to
that that person might not continue to choose you. Yes.
choose you. Yes. >> So, even though you've been in this
>> So, even though you've been in this relationship for 12 years, like every
relationship for 12 years, like every day you have to choose to risk it all if
day you have to choose to risk it all if you want there to be continued intimacy
you want there to be continued intimacy by continuing to tell your truth to this
by continuing to tell your truth to this other person. And that seems so
other person. And that seems so courageous to me. Like, in order for
courageous to me. Like, in order for there to be genuine connection and
there to be genuine connection and closeness, you have to be willing to
closeness, you have to be willing to risk it all sometimes or like probably
risk it all sometimes or like probably almost constantly. And that it seems
almost constantly. And that it seems like it takes so much courage because we
like it takes so much courage because we don't like change. We don't want things
don't like change. We don't want things to change. So you also want a
to change. So you also want a relationship that's alive and still
relationship that's alive and still living and breathing and not some like
living and breathing and not some like dead thing.
dead thing. >> Yeah. So well said. And and what you're
>> Yeah. So well said. And and what you're saying is like that feeling of when
saying is like that feeling of when you're not actually being truthful
you're not actually being truthful consistently, that's when we feel people
consistently, that's when we feel people have had big changes in their life.
have had big changes in their life. Because if you had the consistent
Because if you had the consistent truthfulness, the change felt more
truthfulness, the change felt more smooth and gradual.
smooth and gradual. >> Whereas when the change came like, you
>> Whereas when the change came like, you know, a wrecking ball where I had this
know, a wrecking ball where I had this feeling and I'm just telling you it,
feeling and I'm just telling you it, >> it's because I didn't tell you about all
>> it's because I didn't tell you about all the little the little incremental
the little the little incremental changes and sometimes you don't know
changes and sometimes you don't know it's even happening. So it's not your
it's even happening. So it's not your fault or this is not something that you
fault or this is not something that you can say has to be the case. But I think
can say has to be the case. But I think that's why being more truthful, more
that's why being more truthful, more honest,
honest, >> more regularly and consistently allows
>> more regularly and consistently allows for the change to feel more gradual.
for the change to feel more gradual. It's almost like going back to your
It's almost like going back to your dance analogy, like if you're about to
dance analogy, like if you're about to throw someone up in the air and catch
throw someone up in the air and catch them.
them. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> There has to have been a touch or a
>> There has to have been a touch or a preparation.
preparation. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Before someone just grabs hold of you
>> Before someone just grabs hold of you and throws you in the air. And it's
and throws you in the air. And it's like,
like, >> well, I would have liked a warning.
>> well, I would have liked a warning. >> Yes. Uh and and that's why your analogy
>> Yes. Uh and and that's why your analogy is so good because it's
is so good because it's >> you would throw someone up in a dance at
>> you would throw someone up in a dance at some point if you were both talented and
some point if you were both talented and gifted enough, but there would have been
gifted enough, but there would have been a preparation. There would have been a
a preparation. There would have been a nod, there would have been a look, a
nod, there would have been a look, a feel, a touch or
feel, a touch or >> you know to set that up. And
>> you know to set that up. And >> yes,
>> yes, >> like one of the hardest questions you
>> like one of the hardest questions you talked about asking answer asking
talked about asking answer asking yourself difficult questions and I want
yourself difficult questions and I want to ask you something about that. But one
to ask you something about that. But one thing I've said to my wife is if you
thing I've said to my wife is if you ever fall out of love with me, please
ever fall out of love with me, please tell me because I don't want to live a
tell me because I don't want to live a day without love. I'm really confident
day without love. I'm really confident about the fact that I'm worthy of love
about the fact that I'm worthy of love and that I want to experience love in my
and that I want to experience love in my life.
life. >> If you ever fall out of me, just tell me
>> If you ever fall out of me, just tell me it's okay
it's okay >> because I don't have the desire
>> because I don't have the desire >> to stay somewhere for any other reason.
>> to stay somewhere for any other reason. And it sounds risky saying that and
And it sounds risky saying that and extreme, but to me it's a greater risk
extreme, but to me it's a greater risk to have spent 10 extra years with
to have spent 10 extra years with someone and then they tell me, "Yeah, I
someone and then they tell me, "Yeah, I haven't really loved you for the last 5,
haven't really loved you for the last 5, 10 years." And then I'm like, "Wait a
10 years." And then I'm like, "Wait a minute. I've lived without love for 10
minute. I've lived without love for 10 years of my life and I don't want to be
years of my life and I don't want to be in that place because I've seen people
in that place because I've seen people go through that and and not be happy."
go through that and and not be happy." And so
And so >> it does come with a humility and a
>> it does come with a humility and a >> openness to have very difficult
>> openness to have very difficult conversations.
conversations. >> Uh and not to force something that, oh,
>> Uh and not to force something that, oh, it's been going great for 12 years. It
it's been going great for 12 years. It has to. It should do. It must do. And
has to. It should do. It must do. And it's like, well, maybe no. Like, yes, if
it's like, well, maybe no. Like, yes, if it does, it's great.
it does, it's great. >> And it is right now, but
>> And it is right now, but >> why shouldn't right now be a prediction
>> why shouldn't right now be a prediction for how you feel in 15 years
for how you feel in 15 years >> with everything else that's going to
>> with everything else that's going to change?
change? >> I think if I knew I really couldn't meet
>> I think if I knew I really couldn't meet the needs of someone and they couldn't
the needs of someone and they couldn't meet my needs, if I really couldn't make
meet my needs, if I really couldn't make them happy and they couldn't make me
them happy and they couldn't make me happy, like forcing them to stay in that
happy, like forcing them to stay in that situation, surely that like makes love
situation, surely that like makes love impossible. like negates. So I I totally
impossible. like negates. So I I totally get what you're saying and my mom said
get what you're saying and my mom said this thing to me which was like you want
this thing to me which was like you want to be with someone because you want them
to be with someone because you want them not because you need them. And I think
not because you need them. And I think maybe another reason why
maybe another reason why I didn't get married younger is because
I didn't get married younger is because I think maybe I would have married
I think maybe I would have married someone not knowing who I was and I
someone not knowing who I was and I would have needed them, maybe not wanted
would have needed them, maybe not wanted them. And I think now I have a life
them. And I think now I have a life that's whole and complete as it is. And
that's whole and complete as it is. And I would be making a choice from a place
I would be making a choice from a place of I just want you and I don't need you,
of I just want you and I don't need you, but I just want you. And I don't
but I just want you. And I don't >> I don't think I was that woman five
>> I don't think I was that woman five years ago.
years ago. >> Yeah. I love that. And and and there's
>> Yeah. I love that. And and and there's so much so much to be said for
so much so much to be said for attracting from a place of peace
attracting from a place of peace >> because you know what peace feels like.
>> because you know what peace feels like. M
M >> and so then anyone or anything that
>> and so then anyone or anything that comes into your life
comes into your life >> and what feeling satisfied feels like
>> and what feeling satisfied feels like >> satisfied is probably even a better word
>> satisfied is probably even a better word and that feeling of I know what it feels
and that feeling of I know what it feels like to be satisfied and so I now know
like to be satisfied and so I now know whether someone makes me more satisfied
whether someone makes me more satisfied or less.
or less. >> I know what my baseline is. If you don't
>> I know what my baseline is. If you don't know what your baseline happy is then
know what your baseline happy is then how do you you've got no idea of knowing
how do you you've got no idea of knowing what's going on at all.
what's going on at all. >> And that's not a feeling of being
>> And that's not a feeling of being complete or having it all figured out.
complete or having it all figured out. >> It's like I know what satisfy is a great
>> It's like I know what satisfy is a great word. It's like I know what it feels
word. It's like I know what it feels like to
like to >> be at peace with myself or satisfied
>> be at peace with myself or satisfied with myself. And
with myself. And >> now everyone can show me
>> now everyone can show me >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> where that pendulum swings.
>> where that pendulum swings. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Um, one thing you said which I which
>> Um, one thing you said which I which really resonated with me is that you've
really resonated with me is that you've had to ask yourself so many hard
had to ask yourself so many hard questions
questions >> to do the work. And I wanted to ask you
>> to do the work. And I wanted to ask you what what's one of the hardest questions
what what's one of the hardest questions you've ever had to ask yourself if you
you've ever had to ask yourself if you could recall. Well, the first one that
could recall. Well, the first one that comes to mind and then maybe I'll dig
comes to mind and then maybe I'll dig for a deep or a different one is like to
for a deep or a different one is like to have to admit to myself or ask myself
have to admit to myself or ask myself the question of like you right now have
the question of like you right now have the career and the life that like looks
the career and the life that like looks like the dream, but are you really
like the dream, but are you really happy, Emma? Are you really healthy? Are
happy, Emma? Are you really healthy? Are you really happy? Like is this really
you really happy? Like is this really what you want? And to be at that point
what you want? And to be at that point and like realize and have to admit to
and like realize and have to admit to myself that I wasn't and I didn't was
myself that I wasn't and I didn't was one of the scariest things I've ever had
one of the scariest things I've ever had to do because you know I basically had
to do because you know I basically had to ask myself on a daily basis like I
to ask myself on a daily basis like I felt like I was crazy and walking away
felt like I was crazy and walking away from something without knowing what
from something without knowing what you're walking towards
you're walking towards >> was
>> was not having the answers but leaving
not having the answers but leaving something that was con that the world
something that was con that the world considered to be such of such high
considered to be such of such high value, such a high value kind of moment
value, such a high value kind of moment in my professional life and career. I
in my professional life and career. I think that was a real sitting with that
think that was a real sitting with that was a real moment of reckoning of like
was a real moment of reckoning of like can you tell yourself the truth? Can you
can you tell yourself the truth? Can you live with your truth? Can you accept the
live with your truth? Can you accept the fact that for most other people your
fact that for most other people your truth is pretty confusing and
truth is pretty confusing and unpalatable?
unpalatable? That was definitely
That was definitely a hard moment of sitting more recently
a hard moment of sitting more recently because I've been being my own partner
because I've been being my own partner asking myself, are you really living
asking myself, are you really living your values, things that you preach? Are
your values, things that you preach? Are you actually aligned?
you actually aligned? And actually looking at some spaces in
And actually looking at some spaces in my life where I was like, no, not
my life where I was like, no, not at all. I'm actually not doing what I
at all. I'm actually not doing what I talk about. And I need to like create
talk about. And I need to like create some sort of urgency or a deadline for
some sort of urgency or a deadline for that so that I make sure that I'm a
that so that I make sure that I'm a person of integrity. I purport to be
person of integrity. I purport to be someone that cares about the world and
someone that cares about the world and about the planet and sustainability. And
about the planet and sustainability. And you know, there are some things I was
you know, there are some things I was doing. Was it enough by my own
doing. Was it enough by my own standards? Not by anyone else's. Just by
standards? Not by anyone else's. Just by my own. Probably not. But what's nice is
my own. Probably not. But what's nice is is I actually have the time now to be
is I actually have the time now to be like, "Okay, what are you going to do
like, "Okay, what are you going to do about it?" Like, "Get get on with it."
about it?" Like, "Get get on with it." And like,
And like, >> but those those are Thank you for those.
>> but those those are Thank you for those. Those those are great questions.
Those those are great questions. >> Really really great questions and
>> Really really great questions and >> so hard for so many reasons. Especially
>> so hard for so many reasons. Especially when you talked about like when you're
when you talked about like when you're stepping away from and and stepping
stepping away from and and stepping toward Did you have people in the
toward Did you have people in the industry or like people that you could
industry or like people that you could talk to that felt the same way? Like did
talk to that felt the same way? Like did you have co-stars or friends or
you have co-stars or friends or >> No.
>> No. >> Wow. I no I don't know anyone else. I'll
>> Wow. I no I don't know anyone else. I'll never say that I I quit acting. I'll
never say that I I quit acting. I'll always be an actor. I'm still open to
always be an actor. I'm still open to doing it again. It's but I certainly
doing it again. It's but I certainly made a decision to to take time to
made a decision to to take time to figure out to not know and to you know I
figure out to not know and to you know I had like this whole
had like this whole disassembling the structure that's
disassembling the structure that's needed to carry the loads. And it's like
needed to carry the loads. And it's like there's an agent and a publicist and a
there's an agent and a publicist and a manager and a a personal assistant and
manager and a a personal assistant and there's all these people and lives who
there's all these people and lives who are intertwined with mine and navigating
are intertwined with mine and navigating and caring for and negotiating that with
and caring for and negotiating that with people as well was like was really
people as well was like was really tricky and also I was just bloody
tricky and also I was just bloody terrified. Like I think there's a kind
terrified. Like I think there's a kind of infantilization
of infantilization that can happen when you work as much as
that can happen when you work as much as I did and a kind of loss of independence
I did and a kind of loss of independence that means that you're like, "Oh my god,
that means that you're like, "Oh my god, can I even do my life if I don't have
can I even do my life if I don't have this like army of people who are like
this like army of people who are like helping me do the most menial and basic
helping me do the most menial and basic of things? Like can I actually like do
of things? Like can I actually like do this stuff myself?" And and I don't even
this stuff myself?" And and I don't even say that in terms of like capability,
say that in terms of like capability, but like just from the place of like
but like just from the place of like it's difficult for me to walk down the
it's difficult for me to walk down the street sometimes. So if I'm going to
street sometimes. So if I'm going to start to take on truly the
start to take on truly the responsibility of most of my life
responsibility of most of my life myself, like what's that going to be
myself, like what's that going to be like? Like can I really do that stuff? I
like? Like can I really do that stuff? I think fame makes you feel like you can't
think fame makes you feel like you can't do things for yourself in a way that can
do things for yourself in a way that can really disempower you and and remove
really disempower you and and remove your confidence and autonomy as a human
your confidence and autonomy as a human being. That's That's really disabling.
being. That's That's really disabling. >> And for everyone who's who's wondering,
>> And for everyone who's who's wondering, yeah, Emma called me up and I was like,
yeah, Emma called me up and I was like, "So, should I speak to your publicist?"
"So, should I speak to your publicist?" She's like, "Nope, I am my publicist."
She's like, "Nope, I am my publicist." Like I was like, "Do I need to check
Like I was like, "Do I need to check with the manager?" "Nope, I am my
with the manager?" "Nope, I am my manager." And like that was literally
manager." And like that was literally the conversation we had. She booked this
the conversation we had. She booked this podcast herself.
podcast herself. >> There was no booker. There was no
>> There was no booker. There was no booking system. There was no There was
booking system. There was no There was no reach out.
no reach out. >> No,
>> No, >> it was literally Emma doing it herself,
>> it was literally Emma doing it herself, which is proof you are living your
which is proof you are living your values.
values. >> Thank you.
>> Thank you. >> And and you are aligned with what you're
>> And and you are aligned with what you're saying. I wanted people to know that.
saying. I wanted people to know that. >> Thank you. I appreciate that. What's so
>> Thank you. I appreciate that. What's so funny though now is like because I do
funny though now is like because I do everything myself, there's like a 50%
everything myself, there's like a 50% chance you would have not thought it was
chance you would have not thought it was me or like sometimes when I reach out to
me or like sometimes when I reach out to people,
people, >> I had plenty of moments I had to double
>> I had plenty of moments I had to double take. I was like, "Wait a minute." Like
take. I was like, "Wait a minute." Like >> verified verified amount of followers
>> verified verified amount of followers who you follow.
who you follow. >> People think it's not me. And so like I
>> People think it's not me. And so like I have a 50/50 rate of people actually
have a 50/50 rate of people actually just like not responding to me because
just like not responding to me because they don't think I'd be reaching out
they don't think I'd be reaching out myself. That that's real. I I had to do
myself. That that's real. I I had to do a second date. I think I rejected this
a second date. I think I rejected this morning. Like, wait a minute.
morning. Like, wait a minute. >> Was it definitely her?
>> Was it definitely her? >> Is it definitely her or am I going to
>> Is it definitely her or am I going to turn up in some like, you know, catfish
turn up in some like, you know, catfish situation?
situation? >> No, it's wild.
>> No, it's wild. >> Yeah, it's Yeah,
>> Yeah, it's Yeah, >> oddly sometimes it takes more work me
>> oddly sometimes it takes more work me trying to do things myself than through
trying to do things myself than through the system.
the system. >> Yeah, I know. You did a great job. But
>> Yeah, I know. You did a great job. But that that Yeah, those those hard
that that Yeah, those those hard questions that you asked yourself. I
questions that you asked yourself. I mean, what was it
mean, what was it >> that gave you courage
>> that gave you courage >> to walk a path where you don't know the
>> to walk a path where you don't know the next three steps when you have a entire
next three steps when you have a entire career lined up on the other side?
career lined up on the other side? >> You have an amazing career. You've every
>> You have an amazing career. You've every movie you've been in has been magical
movie you've been in has been magical and amazing. Like it's when you look at
and amazing. Like it's when you look at your portfolio of
your portfolio of >> choices like they're all brilliant
>> choices like they're all brilliant performances. They're great films.
performances. They're great films. They're
They're >> and you only would have more of that.
>> and you only would have more of that. So, it's also not like you're leaving a
So, it's also not like you're leaving a career that's kind of had its you know
career that's kind of had its you know what I It's it's it's at a place where
what I It's it's it's at a place where no businessoriented person could imagine
no businessoriented person could imagine why.
why. >> And so what gives you courage when one
>> And so what gives you courage when one side is so clear and one side is not
side is so clear and one side is not clear at all?
clear at all? >> Again, I'm going to tell the honest
>> Again, I'm going to tell the honest version of this story. I'd love to tell
version of this story. I'd love to tell you
you that it was like
that it was like this incredible courage and
this incredible courage and determination I have inside of me. And
determination I have inside of me. And yes, there's there's part of that. Not
yes, there's there's part of that. Not going to like completely erase my role
going to like completely erase my role in all of this, but I think a big part
in all of this, but I think a big part was that it was coming to a point with
was that it was coming to a point with my
my health and nervous system where I was
health and nervous system where I was starting to hit a point of not no
starting to hit a point of not no return, but like it's interesting. I
return, but like it's interesting. I eat well. I do yoga. I do medit. I do
eat well. I do yoga. I do medit. I do all the things right, but I think I was
all the things right, but I think I was using those as a way of mitigating
using those as a way of mitigating how much stress I was under as opposed
how much stress I was under as opposed to actually what those things are really
to actually what those things are really for
for are compasses and points towards our
are compasses and points towards our truth. And I
truth. And I >> so was
>> so was >> I was using them
>> I was using them as a way of like bolstering
as a way of like bolstering myself and allowing myself to continue
myself and allowing myself to continue down a path that actually was kind of
down a path that actually was kind of wrecking me. And I think it was just
wrecking me. And I think it was just like my immune system
like my immune system couldn't pretend anymore. I was on seven
couldn't pretend anymore. I was on seven or eight packets of an antibiotic every
or eight packets of an antibiotic every year because my immune system was so low
year because my immune system was so low that I would just constantly be getting
that I would just constantly be getting a I just constantly be getting sick and
a I just constantly be getting sick and a sinus infection and whatever else.
a sinus infection and whatever else. Like
Like >> I have no idea.
>> I have no idea. >> My body just started being like no. I
>> My body just started being like no. I went from being someone who I would say
went from being someone who I would say I still handle stress and pressure well
I still handle stress and pressure well and in the moment I could always do it,
and in the moment I could always do it, but the cost afterwards was starting to
but the cost afterwards was starting to get more and more serious to the point
get more and more serious to the point where it was like I'd always turned down
where it was like I'd always turned down or actually I remember I was in my early
or actually I remember I was in my early 20ies when a publicist first offered me
20ies when a publicist first offered me a beta blocker. I was nervous before I
a beta blocker. I was nervous before I could carpet and it's the only other
could carpet and it's the only other time I ever took anything and I was fine
time I ever took anything and I was fine for the two hours after I took it and
for the two hours after I took it and then I got back to the room and when my
then I got back to the room and when my feelings came back to me I was like over
feelings came back to me I was like over wrought with grief and feeling of of
wrought with grief and feeling of of having blocked it. And so I' i'd always
having blocked it. And so I' i'd always and after that I I never allowed anyone
and after that I I never allowed anyone to give me anything again even though I
to give me anything again even though I was offered things multiple times and
was offered things multiple times and doctors wanting to give me things for
doctors wanting to give me things for jet lag and for sleep and for nerves and
jet lag and for sleep and for nerves and oh everyone takes it this is you know
oh everyone takes it this is you know there's no shame in this or whatever but
there's no shame in this or whatever but I just I felt like in order to keep
I just I felt like in order to keep going I was going to have to make a
going I was going to have to make a decision of like are you okay with being
decision of like are you okay with being lowle level
lowle level unwell and medicated essentially and I
unwell and medicated essentially and I just knew that wasn't a choice for me.
just knew that wasn't a choice for me. So in a way I have my body to thank
So in a way I have my body to thank because my body just I didn't want to
because my body just I didn't want to ignore my body anymore. And it didn't
ignore my body anymore. And it didn't matter how many silent retreats I went
matter how many silent retreats I went on or how much yoga I did or like what
on or how much yoga I did or like what new thing I did to try and take care of
new thing I did to try and take care of myself. It my body was done. And
myself. It my body was done. And that was then I think when I went away
that was then I think when I went away and found a relationship with myself and
and found a relationship with myself and my practice and and just having trust
my practice and and just having trust and faith in a way that I never had
and faith in a way that I never had before. And I started listening more
before. And I started listening more carefully to like these little whispers
carefully to like these little whispers of like, oh, like maybe this should be
of like, oh, like maybe this should be the thing you do or like even coming and
the thing you do or like even coming and doing this of like I think you should go
doing this of like I think you should go and do this podcast. Just listening to
and do this podcast. Just listening to myself for clues basically and listening
myself for clues basically and listening to the universe, whatever that means.
to the universe, whatever that means. But I never had that before. I never had
But I never had that before. I never had I never knew how to listen for those
I never knew how to listen for those things before. I truly went away and had
things before. I truly went away and had nothing for a while. So that was
nothing for a while. So that was probably the the best result of of all
probably the the best result of of all of that.
of that. >> Yeah. And I and I think it still takes
>> Yeah. And I and I think it still takes so much courage because
so much courage because >> it does even though you didn't see it
>> it does even though you didn't see it that way and you
that way and you >> may not have noticed it, it still takes
>> may not have noticed it, it still takes so much courage to listen to your body
so much courage to listen to your body >> because it is easy to keep medicating in
>> because it is easy to keep medicating in all the ways to to break it anyway.
all the ways to to break it anyway. >> Yeah. and to to push it to the edges and
>> Yeah. and to to push it to the edges and the limits of its ability
the limits of its ability and because you're so addicted or
and because you're so addicted or intoxicated by the success or whatever
intoxicated by the success or whatever it may be.
it may be. >> I guess the courageous part was just
>> I guess the courageous part was just knowing I didn't want to numb out. That
knowing I didn't want to numb out. That was the point at which it got too big of
was the point at which it got too big of a cost cuz I was like, okay, if I feel
a cost cuz I was like, okay, if I feel like I need to be
like I need to be I'm at the point where the price is too
I'm at the point where the price is too high now.
high now. >> Yeah. Yeah, I loved what you said about
>> Yeah. Yeah, I loved what you said about when they're meant to be compassed to
when they're meant to be compassed to our truth and not like this band-aid
our truth and not like this band-aid pacification of and
pacification of and >> I've been highly really effectively
>> I've been highly really effectively using those band-aids. They will carry
using those band-aids. They will carry you far. Like I had a lot of practice.
you far. Like I had a lot of practice. >> I think that's how they're presented now
>> I think that's how they're presented now too. Like it's become this and and
too. Like it's become this and and that's why when you said that I think
that's why when you said that I think you
you >> it's almost like I'm trying to think of
>> it's almost like I'm trying to think of a good metaphor but the one that's
a good metaphor but the one that's coming to my mind. It's almost like
coming to my mind. It's almost like driving to the grocery store in a sports
driving to the grocery store in a sports car. And it's like a sports car is made
car. And it's like a sports car is made for this high-speed track. Like that's
for this high-speed track. Like that's what it's for.
what it's for. >> Y,
>> Y, >> but you're using it just to drive 25
>> but you're using it just to drive 25 miles an hour.
miles an hour. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> To the grocery store. And it's like, no,
>> To the grocery store. And it's like, no, it's it has so much more capability and
it's it has so much more capability and >> ability to take you somewhere
>> ability to take you somewhere >> phenomenally, but you're using it for a
>> phenomenally, but you're using it for a really simple basic task.
really simple basic task. >> Not going to lie, though. I remember
>> Not going to lie, though. I remember when I did my first vapassa
when I did my first vapassa and sat long enough and I went to my
and sat long enough and I went to my teacher and I was like
teacher and I was like what have I done?
what have I done? >> Go on tell me about this. Go on.
>> Go on tell me about this. Go on. >> What have I done?
>> What have I done? >> What do you mean? In what way?
>> What do you mean? In what way? >> I I because in a way it was almost like
>> I I because in a way it was almost like I realized once you start paying
I realized once you start paying attention to your truth, it's very
attention to your truth, it's very difficult to go back. And in some way it
difficult to go back. And in some way it felt like I was like, "Oh my god, I
felt like I was like, "Oh my god, I don't know if I like this.
don't know if I like this. >> I don't know if I like this.
>> I don't know if I like this. >> So good.
>> So good. >> I I I maybe I want to go back." And once
>> I I I maybe I want to go back." And once you step through it, you you kind of
you step through it, you you kind of can't go back. And I remember him
can't go back. And I remember him looking at me calmly and saying,
looking at me calmly and saying, >> "Could you even go back now even if you
>> "Could you even go back now even if you wanted to?" And I was like, "I guess
wanted to?" And I was like, "I guess not. I guess this is the path I've
not. I guess this is the path I've chosen to walk." And
chosen to walk." And to some degree, in the same way that
to some degree, in the same way that getting cast as Hermione and like making
getting cast as Hermione and like making my piece with the way that that changed
my piece with the way that that changed my life were my marching orders, I think
my life were my marching orders, I think trusting that
trusting that >> is
>> is that's that's all I can do at this
that's that's all I can do at this point. I'm just holding on for dear
point. I'm just holding on for dear life.
life. >> Yeah. It's like the mafia. Once you're
>> Yeah. It's like the mafia. Once you're in, you know too much
in, you know too much like
like >> I'll I'll never forget that moment. I'll
>> I'll I'll never forget that moment. I'll never forget that moment. I was like,
never forget that moment. I was like, "Oh no, this is undoable now, isn't it?"
"Oh no, this is undoable now, isn't it?" And he was like, "Kind of." Yeah. I was
And he was like, "Kind of." Yeah. I was like, "Oh no, it's so uncomfortable.
like, "Oh no, it's so uncomfortable. It's so uncomfortable being honest with
It's so uncomfortable being honest with myself." And then I have to be honest
myself." And then I have to be honest with other people as well. This is a
with other people as well. This is a nightmare. Why did I do this? Why am I
nightmare. Why did I do this? Why am I here? Oh god, what's
here? Oh god, what's >> I'm just imagining you on the retreat
>> I'm just imagining you on the retreat like coming out of it and just having
like coming out of it and just having that reaction.
that reaction. >> Yeah,
>> Yeah, >> it's so funny. So good. That that needs
>> it's so funny. So good. That that needs to get added to the play. That moment
to get added to the play. That moment that moment needs to be added to the
that moment needs to be added to the play.
play. >> Actually, yeah, I wrote something I
>> Actually, yeah, I wrote something I wrote something about my doing the doing
wrote something about my doing the doing the 10day of pastor for the first
the 10day of pastor for the first >> for the first time cuz my god that is
>> for the first time cuz my god that is such a it's such a roller coaster. Yeah.
such a it's such a roller coaster. Yeah. It's such a roller coaster.
It's such a roller coaster. >> Anything you want to share about?
>> Anything you want to share about? >> Sure. Yeah. I don't want to bore you to
>> Sure. Yeah. I don't want to bore you to death, but I mean I think what was funny
death, but I mean I think what was funny was like I I have this picture that I
was like I I have this picture that I drew of day
drew of day >> day two
>> day two >> and it's like green and pink and there's
>> and it's like green and pink and there's butterflies on it and it literally says
butterflies on it and it literally says I think it says this is so embarrassing.
I think it says this is so embarrassing. It says I am beautiful.
It says I am beautiful. So embarrassing.
So embarrassing. >> I just felt like in I was like oh my god
>> I just felt like in I was like oh my god this is blows. I was like riding this
this is blows. I was like riding this wave of like meditation ecstasy
wave of like meditation ecstasy basically. Whatever dopamine hit I was
basically. Whatever dopamine hit I was getting from that was wild. I just felt
getting from that was wild. I just felt unbelievable.
unbelievable. And then I surfed that wave straight
And then I surfed that wave straight into some kind of like brick wall of oh
into some kind of like brick wall of oh my god like all the things in life that
my god like all the things in life that you think are outside of you actually
you think are outside of you actually live inside you. And so even when you're
live inside you. And so even when you're like in this beautiful place on this
like in this beautiful place on this gorgeous meditation retreat with all of
gorgeous meditation retreat with all of these like wonderful enlightened people,
these like wonderful enlightened people, everything starts to drive you crazy.
everything starts to drive you crazy. And even the like salt shaker and the
And even the like salt shaker and the pepper pot in front of you, you start to
pepper pot in front of you, you start to take on the shapes of your real life and
take on the shapes of your real life and you realize that your mind just starts
you realize that your mind just starts creating all this drama for you even
creating all this drama for you even though there's nothing going on
though there's nothing going on literally. And it was just it was such a
literally. And it was just it was such a wild experience to kind of sit there and
wild experience to kind of sit there and be like, "Oh my god. I'm the one
be like, "Oh my god. I'm the one creating all of my own drama. This is a
creating all of my own drama. This is a nightmare. It's me. It's me. I'm the
nightmare. It's me. It's me. I'm the problem." And um I was like, "I can't
problem." And um I was like, "I can't stay here. I can't do this. This is way
stay here. I can't do this. This is way too hard. Living with myself and my own
too hard. Living with myself and my own thoughts is going to dry. This is
thoughts is going to dry. This is unbearable. I I can't do this." That was
unbearable. I I can't do this." That was a really big learning and one I have to
a really big learning and one I have to remember all the time is like I as a
remember all the time is like I as a perfectionist which again is a is a kind
perfectionist which again is a is a kind of violence on yourself. I would try to
of violence on yourself. I would try to like shame and blame myself into and
like shame and blame myself into and like kind of shake myself up and and
like kind of shake myself up and and give myself these kinds of like talkings
give myself these kinds of like talkings to to make myself do stuff. And
to to make myself do stuff. And sometimes to be honest with you, they
sometimes to be honest with you, they work in the short term and in the long
work in the short term and in the long term they fail you miserably. Like they
term they fail you miserably. Like they just do not work. I the only way that I
just do not work. I the only way that I have learned to change my patterns
have learned to change my patterns to show up for myself better to change
to show up for myself better to change in the ways I want to change and grow is
in the ways I want to change and grow is to be loving towards myself.
to be loving towards myself. So getting to be in the room with that
So getting to be in the room with that person at that moment was a massive
person at that moment was a massive gift.
gift. >> It's amazing. I love it how someone that
>> It's amazing. I love it how someone that you can attend a class with can become
you can attend a class with can become such a big teacher for you when you
such a big teacher for you when you allow it to be and
allow it to be and >> yeah,
>> yeah, >> you know, someone who wasn't the leader
>> you know, someone who wasn't the leader or the guide of the group can can have
or the guide of the group can can have such an impact on you. Did you want to
such an impact on you. Did you want to speaking about love, did you want to
speaking about love, did you want to share the
share the >> is it the practice that you went through
>> is it the practice that you went through recently with is that what you ring?
recently with is that what you ring? >> Yeah, the ring.
>> Yeah, the ring. >> Yeah. Oh my god, that's sweet of you to
>> Yeah. Oh my god, that's sweet of you to remember. I mentioned that.
remember. I mentioned that. >> Um yeah, I um I guess having gone
>> Um yeah, I um I guess having gone through this odyssey which has been the
through this odyssey which has been the last I guess 7 years I was like okay I
last I guess 7 years I was like okay I kind of feel like I've got to a place
kind of feel like I've got to a place and this will continue forever where I
and this will continue forever where I want to celebrate where I ended up after
want to celebrate where I ended up after I kind of
I kind of left land it felt like and yeah I I did
left land it felt like and yeah I I did a ritual with or like I guess just a day
a ritual with or like I guess just a day of celebrating with my friends and
of celebrating with my friends and chosen family and they each bought me
chosen family and they each bought me this ring which has 22 petals on it and
this ring which has 22 petals on it and each of them bought one and I've just
each of them bought one and I've just never owned anything so valuable in my
never owned anything so valuable in my life because I I to me it represents the
life because I I to me it represents the life that I've built which was the one
life that I've built which was the one that I really wanted which was one that
that I really wanted which was one that was made up of community and my roots
was made up of community and my roots and
and faith and trust. And in some funny way,
faith and trust. And in some funny way, it signals to me that even though I have
it signals to me that even though I have no outward
no outward signs of my success, save for this crazy
signs of my success, save for this crazy onewoman play I've written, I don't even
onewoman play I've written, I don't even have my degree yet. And it signals to me
have my degree yet. And it signals to me that for me, I achieved what I wanted to
that for me, I achieved what I wanted to achieve for myself.
achieve for myself. Wow.
Wow. >> So, that's pretty cool. And I love that
>> So, that's pretty cool. And I love that every time I look down at my finger, I
every time I look down at my finger, I can like see all of the faces of the
can like see all of the faces of the people who bought it for me.
people who bought it for me. >> You're amazing at holding space. You're
>> You're amazing at holding space. You're so kind. The amount of people who've
so kind. The amount of people who've probably sat in this chair and been as
probably sat in this chair and been as emotional as I have. And you don't turn
emotional as I have. And you don't turn away. It's amazing.
away. It's amazing. >> It's easy with you.
>> It's easy with you. >> That's very kind. Thank you. It's really
>> That's very kind. Thank you. It's really easy because it's really heartfelt and
easy because it's really heartfelt and you've shared so much of me before today
you've shared so much of me before today and today that I felt like you shared
and today that I felt like you shared you created that space for me to sit
you created that space for me to sit with you before today and today.
with you before today and today. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Wow.
>> Wow. >> What makes a real friend? So you said
>> What makes a real friend? So you said you had 22 22
you had 22 22 >> 22 Yeah.
>> 22 Yeah. >> 22 friends. What what what defines a
>> 22 friends. What what what defines a good friend for you?
good friend for you? >> Oh my god. For me, I've never killed
>> Oh my god. For me, I've never killed anyone in my life and I have no
anyone in my life and I have no intention of killing anyone. But like is
intention of killing anyone. But like is the person who you can call when you're
the person who you can call when you're like that would help you carry the dead
like that would help you carry the dead body across the floor. You know what I
body across the floor. You know what I mean? You're like the person you call me
mean? You're like the person you call me like I think I've done this thing
like I think I've done this thing and I need you to like either tell me
and I need you to like either tell me I'm crazy or tell me I'm not crazy or
I'm crazy or tell me I'm not crazy or tell me the truth or help me fix it or I
tell me the truth or help me fix it or I don't know that I think it's like the
don't know that I think it's like the people that God. the people that you
people that God. the people that you just like do not have to have hes and
just like do not have to have hes and graces with and who you can just be like
graces with and who you can just be like this just happened and it's such a
this just happened and it's such a disaster and yeah and I I don't know
disaster and yeah and I I don't know people I think also who
people I think also who can handle your truths your real truths
can handle your truths your real truths and vulnerabilities
and vulnerabilities like they're sacred and with care. I
like they're sacred and with care. I think that's been very important for me
think that's been very important for me because I think maybe part of my bravado
because I think maybe part of my bravado is I'll I'll make a joke of or I'll be
is I'll I'll make a joke of or I'll be brave about things I don't feel very
brave about things I don't feel very brave about and it takes someone who
brave about and it takes someone who knows me quite well to go she's making a
knows me quite well to go she's making a joke about this. She's like actually
joke about this. She's like actually >> dying inside and I kind of know that and
>> dying inside and I kind of know that and like I'm going to hold her through it.
like I'm going to hold her through it. >> Yeah. I think real friends are the ones
>> Yeah. I think real friends are the ones when you're in a really tight corner and
when you're in a really tight corner and not just that we'll like show up
not just that we'll like show up begrudgingly but be like what are we
begrudgingly but be like what are we dealing with today and like maybe we'll
dealing with today and like maybe we'll enjoy that or see that as like an honor
enjoy that or see that as like an honor and a and a privilege actually. I think
and a and a privilege actually. I think that's been a big learning for me. And
that's been a big learning for me. And it's an honor and a gift when someone
it's an honor and a gift when someone asks you for help or when they need you.
asks you for help or when they need you. And I think I used to feel really
And I think I used to feel really embarrassed about needing anything from
embarrassed about needing anything from anyone or asking for help. I used to see
anyone or asking for help. I used to see it as like a great shame, like a
it as like a great shame, like a something I was really embarrassed to
something I was really embarrassed to do. And now I see it as like I guess
do. And now I see it as like I guess like knowing how I feel when someone
like knowing how I feel when someone asks me for help that I really love. and
asks me for help that I really love. and how amazing it feels to be able to be
how amazing it feels to be able to be there for someone else. I try to remind
there for someone else. I try to remind myself that when I'm feeling like I
myself that when I'm feeling like I couldn't possibly burden someone else
couldn't possibly burden someone else with something. I remind myself and I do
with something. I remind myself and I do remember how good it felt that someone
remember how good it felt that someone like asked you to show up for them and
like asked you to show up for them and that you got to be there for them at
that you got to be there for them at their worst or darkest.
their worst or darkest. And so I think coming to understand
And so I think coming to understand like I think I also confused
like I think I also confused codependency or like I don't know I I
codependency or like I don't know I I didn't we are so interdependent as a
didn't we are so interdependent as a species and like we we there's no shame
species and like we we there's no shame in in
in in >> needing and wanting
>> needing and wanting >> other people. I didn't I didn't
>> other people. I didn't I didn't understand. I I didn't understand. And I
understand. I I didn't understand. And I do Yeah.
do Yeah. >> I love the answer. I love how it started
>> I love the answer. I love how it started as if I ever kill someone.
as if I ever kill someone. >> Wish I would. I swear. And I haven't. I
>> Wish I would. I swear. And I haven't. I won't.
won't. >> So good. It's so good. It's so funny.
>> So good. It's so good. It's so funny. It's like a I I did not expect you to
It's like a I I did not expect you to say that. It was so good. So surprising.
say that. It was so good. So surprising. I love it. But no, it's so it's so true.
I love it. But no, it's so it's so true. Like when I when I left the monastery
Like when I when I left the monastery and even though I was with my wife and
and even though I was with my wife and we go into relationship and we're
we go into relationship and we're dating, I used to always feel like I
dating, I used to always feel like I didn't I always I had this false mindset
didn't I always I had this false mindset because of
because of >> my immaturity and understand what being
>> my immaturity and understand what being a monk was.
a monk was. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> In that it was in this independent way,
>> In that it was in this independent way, >> right,
>> right, >> of not needing or wanting anyone and
>> of not needing or wanting anyone and that we were in a relationship and it
that we were in a relationship and it was great, but like that wasn't and I
was great, but like that wasn't and I held that immaturity and I probably
held that immaturity and I probably verbalized it to her too many times for
verbalized it to her too many times for too long in the beginning of our
too long in the beginning of our relationship. I have no idea why she
relationship. I have no idea why she stayed. But it's uh it took recently. It
stayed. But it's uh it took recently. It was we this was so recent. This was like
was we this was so recent. This was like maybe a couple of months ago. Well, I
maybe a couple of months ago. Well, I realized that I shouldn't have said that
realized that I shouldn't have said that years ago, but then a couple of months
years ago, but then a couple of months ago, my wife said to me, she goes,
ago, my wife said to me, she goes, "You're my calm. Like, you calm my
"You're my calm. Like, you calm my nervous system."
nervous system." >> And I was like, "You're my joy. Like,
>> And I was like, "You're my joy. Like, you bring joy to every part of my life."
you bring joy to every part of my life." And it was like that exchange was so
And it was like that exchange was so needed and so powerful
needed and so powerful >> after having for so long feeling like,
>> after having for so long feeling like, "Oh, I have everything I need anyway."
"Oh, I have everything I need anyway." And I do.
And I do. I genuinely believe that. But
I genuinely believe that. But >> it's what you said is that we're inter
>> it's what you said is that we're inter interdependent for a reason.
interdependent for a reason. >> Yes. We our wife make adds so much. It's
>> Yes. We our wife make adds so much. It's like saying I don't need salt added on
like saying I don't need salt added on to this meal. And like the meal is
to this meal. And like the meal is great. And it's like I don't need any
great. And it's like I don't need any more salt. And it's like well no if you
more salt. And it's like well no if you add a little bit of salt it would make
add a little bit of salt it would make it a bit better. Way better.
it a bit better. Way better. >> Way better. And it's like and and we
>> Way better. And it's like and and we kind of live in that life of like I
kind of live in that life of like I don't want to add anything to this. And
don't want to add anything to this. And it's it's almost a defense mechanism
it's it's almost a defense mechanism >> because we're so scared that there may
>> because we're so scared that there may not be someone to add.
not be someone to add. >> Oh my god. I think
>> Oh my god. I think >> and I've lived there. So I that yeah
>> and I've lived there. So I that yeah that resonated very strongly.
that resonated very strongly. >> I think that was the one of the other
>> I think that was the one of the other gifts actually of getting to a point
gifts actually of getting to a point where cuz I used to be this like I'm so
where cuz I used to be this like I'm so tough and independent and I can do
tough and independent and I can do anything person and being at the point
anything person and being at the point where I was like h I actually think
where I was like h I actually think I'm like not okay. and my body forcing
I'm like not okay. and my body forcing me to ask other people for help was the
me to ask other people for help was the biggest gift of my life because it
biggest gift of my life because it brought me so much closer to other
brought me so much closer to other people. And I learned that not only is
people. And I learned that not only is it not a burden, it's genuinely
it not a burden, it's genuinely yeah, a privilege and a gift sometimes
yeah, a privilege and a gift sometimes to to have someone ask you that ask you
to to have someone ask you that ask you that question or like be honest about
that question or like be honest about the ways that they need you. And it's
the ways that they need you. And it's crazy how long it takes to learn these
crazy how long it takes to learn these things.
things. >> Yeah, absolutely. You you've done so
>> Yeah, absolutely. You you've done so much inner work and self work. I'm I'm
much inner work and self work. I'm I'm wondering what's what's the work you've
wondering what's what's the work you've been avoiding? What's the work you've
been avoiding? What's the work you've been putting off?
been putting off? >> Wow. If there is any
>> Wow. If there is any >> I think it's probably something around
>> I think it's probably something around now
now tying it all together. M
tying it all together. M >> I think in some ways me being here today
>> I think in some ways me being here today is me trying to do the piece I've been
is me trying to do the piece I've been avoiding maybe which is like okay you
avoiding maybe which is like okay you know you want to show up as a full
know you want to show up as a full integrated whole self and
integrated whole self and not compartmentalize and split and
not compartmentalize and split and fragment yourself in a way that keeps
fragment yourself in a way that keeps you safe. And that compartmentalization
you safe. And that compartmentalization did keep me safe and felt very necessary
did keep me safe and felt very necessary for a long time because I was trying to
for a long time because I was trying to keep some walls up where I could nurture
keep some walls up where I could nurture myself and learn and grow and then be
myself and learn and grow and then be ready to share those pieces. But I think
ready to share those pieces. But I think it's probably figuring out
it's probably figuring out how to avoid the pieces that I know
how to avoid the pieces that I know aren't good for me and that are
aren't good for me and that are genuinely just toxic.
genuinely just toxic. But to
But to yeah have the courage to show up now in
yeah have the courage to show up now in whatever form that is and
whatever form that is and trust again whether that's a person or
trust again whether that's a person or it's making something or it's kind of
it's making something or it's kind of okay. Have you learned enough that you
okay. Have you learned enough that you can integrate and and share now that
can integrate and and share now that you've done this in a work on your own?
you've done this in a work on your own? >> Yeah, that that feels that resonates.
>> Yeah, that that feels that resonates. >> Okay, good.
>> Okay, good. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's hard it's hard to it's
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's hard it's hard to it's hard to verbalize.
hard to verbalize. It's almost like it is that you've been
It's almost like it is that you've been private for so long.
private for so long. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And you've been working in private on
>> And you've been working in private on >> Yes. your fascinations, your
>> Yes. your fascinations, your curiosities, your friends, your inner
curiosities, your friends, your inner work, and then to actually come out and
work, and then to actually come out and talk about
talk about >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> what that period has been like publicly.
>> what that period has been like publicly. >> Yeah. is is something you can keep
>> Yeah. is is something you can keep pushing off and and
pushing off and and >> and maybe the how that ties into
>> and maybe the how that ties into partnership is that I've realized
partnership is that I've realized actually that some of the people I've
actually that some of the people I've been attracting
been attracting on the dating front think they're dating
on the dating front think they're dating some previous version of me who I'm who
some previous version of me who I'm who still exists in some ways but who isn't
still exists in some ways but who isn't actually
actually who I am now. And I realized I was like,
who I am now. And I realized I was like, "Oh, like I'm still getting sent people
"Oh, like I'm still getting sent people who like
who like are seeing someone who was part of the
are seeing someone who was part of the picture but but not the whole picture."
picture but but not the whole picture." And
And it's starting to feel uncomfortable
it's starting to feel uncomfortable to not feel like I'm telling this part
to not feel like I'm telling this part of the story, if that makes sense.
of the story, if that makes sense. >> It's even hard for you to be like,
>> It's even hard for you to be like, "Well, these are the parts that are
"Well, these are the parts that are still there and these are like it's
still there and these are like it's >> not dedactic process of like
>> not dedactic process of like >> No,
>> No, >> it's not an equation where you can go,
>> it's not an equation where you can go, well, these are the parts that I've
well, these are the parts that I've kept. These are the parts that are not
kept. These are the parts that are not like it doesn't work like that.
like it doesn't work like that. >> No, it doesn't work like that. It
>> No, it doesn't work like that. It doesn't work like that. But I'm still
doesn't work like that. But I'm still getting requests that want to drag me a
getting requests that want to drag me a little bit more into
little bit more into a version of myself who was great and
a version of myself who was great and she was doing great stuff. But I think
she was doing great stuff. But I think there's a part of me now that really
there's a part of me now that really feels like being able to speak to you
feels like being able to speak to you one-on-one in this kind of setting as
one-on-one in this kind of setting as opposed to what I used to do, which
opposed to what I used to do, which would be an enormous audience and
would be an enormous audience and there'd be like 300 people there. And
there'd be like 300 people there. And like of course there's intimacy you can
like of course there's intimacy you can find in a room like that, but like the
find in a room like that, but like the truth is
truth is it's really difficult to find the kind
it's really difficult to find the kind of depth and the kind of connections
of depth and the kind of connections that I know are the ones that nourish me
that I know are the ones that nourish me personally. And that's it's different
personally. And that's it's different for everyone, but that just aren't
for everyone, but that just aren't allowing me to have the thing that I
allowing me to have the thing that I know is the real thing that I'm actually
know is the real thing that I'm actually seeking. And what I used to go into lots
seeking. And what I used to go into lots of other environments seeking and
of other environments seeking and thinking I'd be able to get and keep and
thinking I'd be able to get and keep and just not not being able to find.
just not not being able to find. Emma, something I wanted to ask you
Emma, something I wanted to ask you about that's
about that's difficult and challenging because it's
difficult and challenging because it's something you spoke about earlier as to
something you spoke about earlier as to being such a big part of your life, an
being such a big part of your life, an important part of your life, but
important part of your life, but recently
recently there's been
there's been so many conversations and comments
so many conversations and comments directly from JK Rowling, whether it's
directly from JK Rowling, whether it's her saying she'd never forgive you for
her saying she'd never forgive you for your views or the fact that when she was
your views or the fact that when she was asked what ruins the movies for her, she
asked what ruins the movies for her, she named yourself and some of your
named yourself and some of your co-stars. And I imagine that's an
co-stars. And I imagine that's an extremely difficult thing when you've
extremely difficult thing when you've been a part of someone's world, when
been a part of someone's world, when you've felt connected to their work and
you've felt connected to their work and then for it now to kind of be a full 180
then for it now to kind of be a full 180 and for someone to publicly say these
and for someone to publicly say these things that can be quite extremely
things that can be quite extremely hurtful actually.
hurtful actually. How do you think about that?
How do you think about that? I really don't believe that by
I really don't believe that by having had that experience and holding
having had that experience and holding the love and support and views that I
the love and support and views that I have mean that I can't and don't
have mean that I can't and don't treasure Joe and the person that I
treasure Joe and the person that I that I had personal experiences with.
that I had personal experiences with. I will never believe that one negates
I will never believe that one negates the other and that my experience of that
the other and that my experience of that person
person I don't get to keep and cherish.
I don't get to keep and cherish. I to come back to our earlier thing like
I to come back to our earlier thing like I just don't think these things are
I just don't think these things are either or. I think
either or. I think it's my deepest wish that
it's my deepest wish that I I hope people who don't agree with my
I I hope people who don't agree with my opinion will love me and I hope I can
opinion will love me and I hope I can keep loving people who I don't
keep loving people who I don't necessarily share the same opinion with.
necessarily share the same opinion with. And I think that's a very very important
And I think that's a very very important way for me that I need to be able to
way for me that I need to be able to move through life. M
move through life. M >> I just really I guess I to circle back
>> I just really I guess I to circle back around I really do believe in
around I really do believe in having conversations and that those are
having conversations and that those are really important and that
really important and that I don't know
I don't know I guess where I've landed is
I guess where I've landed is it's not so much what we say or what we
it's not so much what we say or what we believe
believe but very often how we say it. That's
but very often how we say it. That's really important and that's really
really important and that's really frustrating and not what you want to
frustrating and not what you want to hear when you're really angry and upset
hear when you're really angry and upset with someone.
with someone. Um,
Um, but I don't know. I just see this world
but I don't know. I just see this world right now where we seem to be
right now where we seem to be giving permission for this kind of like
giving permission for this kind of like throwing out of people or that people
throwing out of people or that people are disposable. And I I just think
are disposable. And I I just think that's
that's I will always think that's wrong. I I
I will always think that's wrong. I I always I just believe that
always I just believe that no one is no no one's disposable.
no one is no no one's disposable. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> And everyone as far as possible,
>> And everyone as far as possible, whatever the conversation is, should and
whatever the conversation is, should and can be treated with
can be treated with at the very least dignity and respect. M
at the very least dignity and respect. M >> thank you for challenging us and pushing
>> thank you for challenging us and pushing us. Yeah, it takes a lot to
us. Yeah, it takes a lot to >> I think that's what we're all being
>> I think that's what we're all being challenged to do is try and hold two
challenged to do is try and hold two truths at once. And yes,
truths at once. And yes, >> those two truths don't have to be
>> those two truths don't have to be complimentary, but they they can stand
complimentary, but they they can stand at the same time. Yeah.
at the same time. Yeah. >> I think the thing I'm most upset about
>> I think the thing I'm most upset about is that a conversation was never made
is that a conversation was never made possible.
possible. >> So you remain open for that dialogue.
>> So you remain open for that dialogue. >> Yeah. And I always will. I believe in
>> Yeah. And I always will. I believe in that. I believe in that completely.
that. I believe in that completely. Um
Um I believe in that completely.
I believe in that completely. >> I just don't Yeah. I just don't want to
>> I just don't Yeah. I just don't want to say anything that like continues to
say anything that like continues to weaponize a really like toxic debate and
weaponize a really like toxic debate and conversation,
conversation, >> which is
>> which is maybe why I I don't well it is why I
maybe why I I don't well it is why I don't comment or like continue to
don't comment or like continue to comment. Not because I don't care about
comment. Not because I don't care about her or about the issue, but because I
her or about the issue, but because I just the way that the conversation is
just the way that the conversation is being had
being had >> feels really painful to me.
>> feels really painful to me. And so
And so that's why that's why that decision.
that's why that's why that decision. >> Yeah, I really I really appreciate that
>> Yeah, I really I really appreciate that mindset and
mindset and deeply deeply feel like
deeply deeply feel like if people are challenged to go there
if people are challenged to go there themselves like it takes a lot to think
themselves like it takes a lot to think that way and feel that way. Yes,
that way and feel that way. Yes, >> it's it's what it's what healing really
>> it's it's what it's what healing really requires across, you know, around the
requires across, you know, around the world. And I can't imagine how many
world. And I can't imagine how many young people who look up to you and
young people who look up to you and people who look up to you will feel the
people who look up to you will feel the same way to
same way to >> to recognize that that's how we engage.
>> to recognize that that's how we engage. That's what we look for. We
That's what we look for. We >> It's It's not that we're trying to make
>> It's It's not that we're trying to make everything pretty and perfect.
everything pretty and perfect. >> No, it's that we're willing to engage in
>> No, it's that we're willing to engage in an uncomfortable conversation.
an uncomfortable conversation. >> Yes. her kindness and words of
>> Yes. her kindness and words of encouragement and that steadfastness
encouragement and that steadfastness that
that and also honestly just as a young woman
and also honestly just as a young woman to for her to have written that
to for her to have written that character created that world
character created that world given me an opportunity which to be
given me an opportunity which to be honest barely exists in the history of
honest barely exists in the history of English literature
English literature um you know
how can I there's just no world in which I could ever cancel her out or cancel
I could ever cancel her out or cancel that out
that out for anything. It It has to remain true.
for anything. It It has to remain true. It is true. And this is where this like
It is true. And this is where this like holding of these I just don't know what
holding of these I just don't know what else to do other than hold these two
else to do other than hold these two seemingly incompatible things together
seemingly incompatible things together at the same time and just
at the same time and just hope maybe they will one day resolve or
hope maybe they will one day resolve or like cojoin themselves and maybe accept
like cojoin themselves and maybe accept that they never will but that they can
that they never will but that they can both still be true and
both still be true and I can love her. I can know she loved me.
I can love her. I can know she loved me. I can be grateful to her. I can know the
I can be grateful to her. I can know the things that she said are true and
things that she said are true and there can be this whole other thing and
there can be this whole other thing and my job feels like to just hold just to
my job feels like to just hold just to hold all of it. But the bigger thing is
hold all of it. But the bigger thing is just
what she's done will never be taken away from me.
from me. >> Thanks for setting such a powerful
>> Thanks for setting such a powerful example. Thank
example. Thank >> you. Yeah,
>> you. Yeah, >> that beautiful Fcott Fitzgerald quote
>> that beautiful Fcott Fitzgerald quote that
that >> the sign of a first rate intelligence is
>> the sign of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas
the ability to hold two opposing ideas at the same time and still retain the
at the same time and still retain the ability to function. He goes on to say,
ability to function. He goes on to say, one should therefore be able to see that
one should therefore be able to see that the world is hopeless but still be
the world is hopeless but still be determined to make it otherwise.
determined to make it otherwise. >> And it's like that's
>> And it's like that's >> that's Scott Fitzgerald said that. Wow.
>> that's Scott Fitzgerald said that. Wow. He ran deeper than I knew.
He ran deeper than I knew. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. T.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. T. >> Wow. That's No one ever part.
>> Wow. That's No one ever part. >> That's incredible.
>> That's incredible. >> Yeah, it's one of my favorite.
>> Yeah, it's one of my favorite. >> Wow. Well done you for remembering that
>> Wow. Well done you for remembering that second part. Wow. You've made me like
second part. Wow. You've made me like Fitzgerald a lot. I mean, I liked him,
Fitzgerald a lot. I mean, I liked him, don't get me wrong. Like
don't get me wrong. Like >> Yeah. Yeah. I've I to me it's my it's
>> Yeah. Yeah. I've I to me it's my it's one of my favorite ideas.
one of my favorite ideas. >> It's so good.
>> It's so good. >> Yeah. It's so good.
>> Yeah. It's so good. >> That's so good.
>> That's so good. >> Yeah. Emma, for someone who has tried to
>> Yeah. Emma, for someone who has tried to stay out of the public eye,
stay out of the public eye, >> Yeah. You've still been vocal about
>> Yeah. You've still been vocal about causes you believe in things that you
causes you believe in things that you stand for.
stand for. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> And that always seems to get attention
>> And that always seems to get attention and reaction. Mhm.
and reaction. Mhm. >> And so when you shared online your
>> And so when you shared online your solidarity for Palestine,
solidarity for Palestine, >> the former Israeli UN ambassador Danny
>> the former Israeli UN ambassador Danny Danon called you an anti-semite and and
Danon called you an anti-semite and and his tweet said 10 points from Gryffindor
his tweet said 10 points from Gryffindor for being an anti-semite.
for being an anti-semite. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> What goes through your mind when you you
>> What goes through your mind when you you see that?
see that? >> This happened um this happened a few
>> This happened um this happened a few years ago now.
years ago now. >> Yeah. I think what concerned me at the
>> Yeah. I think what concerned me at the time was the way that that label was
time was the way that that label was being used.
being used. And I think even now
And I think even now I see that playing out
I see that playing out where we aren't people don't feel like
where we aren't people don't feel like they can talk about
they can talk about what's happening safely.
what's happening safely. this duality created where we don't seem
this duality created where we don't seem able to care about the victims of
able to care about the victims of terrorism
terrorism and care about the genocide that's
and care about the genocide that's happening in Palestine at the same time.
happening in Palestine at the same time. And both things have to be allowed to be
And both things have to be allowed to be true.
true. You have to be allowed to care about
You have to be allowed to care about 50,000 civilians dying, 17,000 of which
50,000 civilians dying, 17,000 of which are children. and care deeply
are children. and care deeply about
about the victims of this awful terrorist
the victims of this awful terrorist attack.
attack. >> I appreciate you sharing that and
>> I appreciate you sharing that and yeah, it it seems like that belief
yeah, it it seems like that belief system you have
system you have >> in Yes. and and this and and together it
>> in Yes. and and this and and together it kind of runs through so many
kind of runs through so many >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> areas of your life.
>> areas of your life. >> Yeah. It it
>> Yeah. It it >> personal and beyond.
>> personal and beyond. >> Yes. I think that's I think that's true.
>> Yes. I think that's I think that's true. I think that's true. I hope that you've
I think that's true. I hope that you've felt you've been able to share the parts
felt you've been able to share the parts of yourself and the version of yourself
of yourself and the version of yourself that you wanted to and intended to.
that you wanted to and intended to. >> I hope so. I feel very hot and I feel
>> I hope so. I feel very hot and I feel very hot and uh I feel a little bit like
very hot and uh I feel a little bit like is this room even real? Like are we is
is this room even real? Like are we is this like a god rar play where we're
this like a god rar play where we're like in some sort of existential room
like in some sort of existential room that doesn't exist?
that doesn't exist? >> In a second all the drop.
>> In a second all the drop. >> Honestly, I feel a little bit like that.
>> Honestly, I feel a little bit like that. But as long as this was real and these
But as long as this was real and these are these four walls are actually here,
are these four walls are actually here, then yes, I do feel that way. And um I
then yes, I do feel that way. And um I or like I've done everything I can in a
or like I've done everything I can in a context that's still I can still see
context that's still I can still see cameras and lights and I know there's
cameras and lights and I know there's >> a person behind me, but I feel to the
>> a person behind me, but I feel to the extent to which I I can humanly do that
extent to which I I can humanly do that I've shown up for myself and
I've shown up for myself and for you in a way and the invitation that
for you in a way and the invitation that this podcast is and the work that you do
this podcast is and the work that you do in the world, I've answered that
in the world, I've answered that invitation. So, I'm feel
invitation. So, I'm feel >> I feel good about that.
>> I feel good about that. >> And I've got I know it's a bit hot, but
>> And I've got I know it's a bit hot, but I've got a couple of questions I want to
I've got a couple of questions I want to end on. We end on with every episode.
end on. We end on with every episode. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Um these are your final five. They have
>> Um these are your final five. They have to be answered in one word to one
to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum, but
sentence maximum, but >> I will probably ignore that rule as I
>> I will probably ignore that rule as I always do.
always do. >> Amazing.
>> Amazing. >> So, question number one, okay, is um we
>> So, question number one, okay, is um we asked these to everyone who's ever been
asked these to everyone who's ever been on the show. What is the best advice
on the show. What is the best advice you've ever heard or received?
you've ever heard or received? I'm going to cheat slightly
I'm going to cheat slightly if you'll allow it.
if you'll allow it. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> I read Emergent Strategy by Adrian Marie
>> I read Emergent Strategy by Adrian Marie Brown. It was given to me as a gift by
Brown. It was given to me as a gift by my friend Amarie for my 30th birthday.
my friend Amarie for my 30th birthday. And I think that
And I think that being a good pious Protestant English
being a good pious Protestant English girl, I really believed that if I worked
girl, I really believed that if I worked hard enough and if I was kind of saintly
hard enough and if I was kind of saintly enough that someone would see my good
enough that someone would see my good deeds and all of my hard work and like
deeds and all of my hard work and like give me the sticker, you know, give me
give me the sticker, you know, give me the like give me the star. And so a kind
the like give me the star. And so a kind of martyrdom was part of my sort of I
of martyrdom was part of my sort of I understood was important in my and I
understood was important in my and I think reading her book and reading
think reading her book and reading about
about pleasure activism which is sort of the
pleasure activism which is sort of the idea that like
idea that like anything that you need to s that you
anything that you need to s that you want to sustain eg justice eg
want to sustain eg justice eg You need it to be easy and you need it
You need it to be easy and you need it to be pleasurable in a way because
to be pleasurable in a way because that's what's going to mean that you'll
that's what's going to mean that you'll be able to do it for a long time.
be able to do it for a long time. >> Part of my burnout was that I wasn't
>> Part of my burnout was that I wasn't prioritizing
prioritizing pleasure and joy as the kind of like
pleasure and joy as the kind of like underpinning for even some of the the
underpinning for even some of the the harder, more somber,
harder, more somber, more cerebral things that I was doing.
more cerebral things that I was doing. And
And I think
I think >> that's such a great answer. changed my
>> that's such a great answer. changed my life. And I think we also have a model
life. And I think we also have a model particularly within activism and um in
particularly within activism and um in lots of spaces but like this kind of
lots of spaces but like this kind of sole individual charismatic leader and I
sole individual charismatic leader and I like you you know I my heroes always
like you you know I my heroes always Martin Luther King and Gandhi and you
Martin Luther King and Gandhi and you just saw this sort of like solitary
just saw this sort of like solitary person that was doing that and I think
person that was doing that and I think if I could go back and do anything
if I could go back and do anything differently it would be that when I
differently it would be that when I embarked on some of the public activism
embarked on some of the public activism that I did. I wouldn't go in the way I
that I did. I wouldn't go in the way I did. I would go in with what I have now,
did. I would go in with what I have now, which is not just like an activist
which is not just like an activist community. Like I have friends who can
community. Like I have friends who can give me feedback and who I can talk to
give me feedback and who I can talk to and who I feel that I'm not doing the
and who I feel that I'm not doing the work alone solo. However that might
work alone solo. However that might look. Yeah. I guess heroicism and and
look. Yeah. I guess heroicism and and martyrdom the way the way that it was
martyrdom the way the way that it was looked maybe. I just don't believe
looked maybe. I just don't believe that's how we'll get the job done
that's how we'll get the job done anymore. Anything anything good will get
anymore. Anything anything good will get done.
done. >> So I think that book and I think that
>> So I think that book and I think that idea that revolutionized my approach.
idea that revolutionized my approach. >> I love that. Yeah, that's a great
>> I love that. Yeah, that's a great answer. It's beautiful. I want to read
answer. It's beautiful. I want to read that book now.
that book now. >> I haven't read it.
>> I haven't read it. >> You have to. You have to have her on the
>> You have to. You have to have her on the podcast.
podcast. >> Yeah, I should. Yeah, absolutely. Uh
>> Yeah, I should. Yeah, absolutely. Uh question number two. What is the worst
question number two. What is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?
advice you've ever heard or received? >> Oh,
>> Oh, >> so much.
>> so much. >> How long have you got?
>> How long have you got? >> God, mostly just like I think a lot of
>> God, mostly just like I think a lot of stuff around toughen up, bottle it up.
stuff around toughen up, bottle it up. >> Um,
>> Um, >> deal with that later, you know, just
>> deal with that later, you know, just like subtle versions of like, well,
like subtle versions of like, well, maybe tell the truth, but just not all
maybe tell the truth, but just not all of it. Just like maybe just like tell
of it. Just like maybe just like tell like a little bit of it, but not like
like a little bit of it, but not like the whole thing, you know? Cuz like the
the whole thing, you know? Cuz like the truth is the problem with like telling
truth is the problem with like telling three quarters of the truth is that then
three quarters of the truth is that then you're sort of in this like constant
you're sort of in this like constant >> peeling and unpeeling of yourself where
>> peeling and unpeeling of yourself where you sort of like you're sort of trying
you sort of like you're sort of trying to do it but you're not quite doing it.
to do it but you're not quite doing it. And I don't know I think a lot of advice
And I don't know I think a lot of advice around that. Also anyone that tells you
around that. Also anyone that tells you not to do what you love
not to do what you love terrible advice doing what you love will
terrible advice doing what you love will lead you where you need to go even if
lead you where you need to go even if you can't see it at the time.
you can't see it at the time. Uh
yeah. Yeah.
Think about terrible terrible beauty tips and advice given around like
tips and advice given around like >> I don't know just like oh god all again
>> I don't know just like oh god all again like back to our previous conversation
like back to our previous conversation all the ridiculous things that you are
all the ridiculous things that you are encouraged to try and do as a woman like
encouraged to try and do as a woman like fake tan and and I mean it's hilarious.
fake tan and and I mean it's hilarious. I actually right now I I it might be
I actually right now I I it might be like well covered up, but I accidentally
like well covered up, but I accidentally have a had a bottle of fake tan in my
have a had a bottle of fake tan in my bathroom and in my jet lag state last
bathroom and in my jet lag state last night I thought I was putting
night I thought I was putting moisturizer on, but now I have like
moisturizer on, but now I have like these
these >> like horrific uh fake tan marks on my
>> like horrific uh fake tan marks on my legs and feet. I guess I'm just thinking
legs and feet. I guess I'm just thinking about just like oh my god. And recently
about just like oh my god. And recently I was like, "Okay, I want to get my
I was like, "Okay, I want to get my teeth whitened." And I looked like Ross
teeth whitened." And I looked like Ross from Friends when he'd had that awful
from Friends when he'd had that awful fake tanning accident because they were
fake tanning accident because they were just way too white. And then I had to
just way too white. And then I had to spend go back for two other visits to
spend go back for two other visits to get the dentist to put my teeth back to
get the dentist to put my teeth back to my normal teeth. So I guess I was just
my normal teeth. So I guess I was just laughing thinking about like worse
laughing thinking about like worse advice is just like don't ever listen to
advice is just like don't ever listen to beauty technicians or anyone advising
beauty technicians or anyone advising you to do anything weird to your body,
you to do anything weird to your body, face, appearance. Just just don't don't
face, appearance. Just just don't don't listen. Don't don't take the bait. Just
listen. Don't don't take the bait. Just don't do it.
don't do it. >> So good. Best answer. Best answer.
>> So good. Best answer. Best answer. >> Question number three. How are you how
>> Question number three. How are you how are you now going to choose work
are you now going to choose work projects or activism differently?
projects or activism differently? >> Does the person that's asking me to do
>> Does the person that's asking me to do something with them, uh, can they
something with them, uh, can they confidently look at me and say that they
confidently look at me and say that they care about me far more than like what
care about me far more than like what we're producing? and
we're producing? and and do I care about them that way? One
and do I care about them that way? One of my favorite people I worked with,
of my favorite people I worked with, Steve Chabosski,
Steve Chabosski, uh I remember him
uh I remember him leaving what was a very productive uh
leaving what was a very productive uh rehearsal or script meeting with Logan
rehearsal or script meeting with Logan Lurman, Ezra Miller and I and he was
Lurman, Ezra Miller and I and he was like, I need to go and be with my wife
like, I need to go and be with my wife now. And we were like, I don't think
now. And we were like, I don't think I've ever heard I mean, at that point, I
I've ever heard I mean, at that point, I certainly had ever heard a director in
certainly had ever heard a director in my career say they needed to leave for a
my career say they needed to leave for a personal reason or for a personal
personal reason or for a personal relationship, but I worked far harder
relationship, but I worked far harder for Steve than I worked for any other
for Steve than I worked for any other director because
director because >> I think I was able to be a far give a
>> I think I was able to be a far give a far more vulnerable performance in that
far more vulnerable performance in that film because I felt that he really cared
film because I felt that he really cared about me beyond the product of the film.
about me beyond the product of the film. And I want to work with people like that
And I want to work with people like that who for whom the process is as important
who for whom the process is as important as the outcome and the people that are
as the outcome and the people that are part of it are more important than
part of it are more important than whatever the outcome is. I think this is
whatever the outcome is. I think this is a really difficult thing that I see
a really difficult thing that I see everywhere in the world right now is
everywhere in the world right now is that we treat objects and things like
that we treat objects and things like they're sacred and we don't treat people
they're sacred and we don't treat people like they're the sacred thing. And that
like they're the sacred thing. And that switch
switch Yeah. I think it causes a lot of pain.
Yeah. I think it causes a lot of pain. >> Emma, something that you told me when we
>> Emma, something that you told me when we were speaking on the phone
were speaking on the phone >> was that you've been working with young
>> was that you've been working with young people
people >> on helping them with some of the
>> on helping them with some of the challenges that you've faced in your own
challenges that you've faced in your own career and your own life.
career and your own life. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And I remember being so touched by that
>> And I remember being so touched by that and I wanted to learn more and for you
and I wanted to learn more and for you to share it because
to share it because >> I Yeah. I just think it's really special
>> I Yeah. I just think it's really special and I was sharing it with some of my
and I was sharing it with some of my team before you arrived and and everyone
team before you arrived and and everyone was quite drawn to it. So,
was quite drawn to it. So, >> as a young
>> as a young person,
person, and you know, as I've basically shared
and you know, as I've basically shared over however long it's been that we've
over however long it's been that we've been speaking, I just
been speaking, I just really needed to
really needed to be having more conversations with people
be having more conversations with people my own age and people that were older
my own age and people that were older than me. I feel like I tried to navigate
than me. I feel like I tried to navigate so many problems on my own and I just
so many problems on my own and I just didn't know
didn't know who to really speak to and I was
who to really speak to and I was speaking to such a narrow group of
speaking to such a narrow group of people about what I was trying to
people about what I was trying to navigate and I I just I think that
navigate and I I just I think that working with young people and giving
working with young people and giving them each other and also the space, the
them each other and also the space, the reason, the excuses to talk about the
reason, the excuses to talk about the things that we don't talk about or
things that we don't talk about or create spaces for has been the most
create spaces for has been the most gratifying,
gratifying, the most purposeful and of service I
the most purposeful and of service I felt in a long time because
felt in a long time because it turns out pretty often that a lot of
it turns out pretty often that a lot of the things that we're struggling with,
the things that we're struggling with, other people are struggling with as
other people are struggling with as well. And so in a way going back around
well. And so in a way going back around and trying to put out into the world a
and trying to put out into the world a lot of the things that I knew I needed
lot of the things that I knew I needed as a young person and didn't get. It's
as a young person and didn't get. It's been the best most the best most
been the best most the best most gratifying thing. And I feel really
gratifying thing. And I feel really lucky to be in a position and in a place
lucky to be in a position and in a place where I can say and know like like I've
where I can say and know like like I've kind of done this treacherous journey.
kind of done this treacherous journey. And I think that
And I think that I think I might have some ideas about
I think I might have some ideas about what might be needed for someone to come
what might be needed for someone to come out the other side of that safely.
out the other side of that safely. >> So it feels good to be of use.
>> So it feels good to be of use. >> Yeah. I love that. Fifth and final
>> Yeah. I love that. Fifth and final question. We ask this to every guest
question. We ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you
who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in
could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it
the world had to follow, what would it be?
be? >> Oh wow.
>> Oh wow. One law.
Okay. There's a couple of contenders. I want to run you through one of them with
want to run you through one of them with you. One is going to be
you. One is going to be >> We'll vote on them.
>> We'll vote on them. >> Okay. Great. Perfect. One would be
>> Okay. Great. Perfect. One would be around the importance of
around the importance of telling the truth or like speaking your
telling the truth or like speaking your truth or just because I feel like so
truth or just because I feel like so much so much chaos is caused by people
much so much chaos is caused by people not being sure whether or not they
not being sure whether or not they should or it's a good idea to or I think
should or it's a good idea to or I think that would be a pretty amazing one. Uh,
that would be a pretty amazing one. Uh, another contender I mean it's the
another contender I mean it's the obvious one is treat other people as you
obvious one is treat other people as you would like to be treated. That would
would like to be treated. That would obviously solve a lot of problems as
obviously solve a lot of problems as well.
well. >> I like that one. You gave
>> I like that one. You gave >> the last one?
>> the last one? >> Yeah, the first one. The first one.
>> Yeah, the first one. The first one. >> Oh, the first one. Yeah. The truth.
>> Oh, the first one. Yeah. The truth. Yeah. I guess it took me a long time and
Yeah. I guess it took me a long time and probably
probably probably through doing my yoga teacher
probably through doing my yoga teacher training is speaking truth with kindness
training is speaking truth with kindness is one of the first nyamas, right?
is one of the first nyamas, right? >> Very disappointed. I can't remember what
>> Very disappointed. I can't remember what the word is in
the word is in >> not sata
>> not sata >> maybe. Yeah. Speaking the truth with
>> maybe. Yeah. Speaking the truth with kind like speaking the truth with
kind like speaking the truth with kindness. I think of the
kindness. I think of the >> there's an amazing there's an amazing
>> there's an amazing there's an amazing quote which actually is
quote which actually is was given to me recently by a friend
was given to me recently by a friend which is like the truth
which is like the truth the truth without kindness is brutality
the truth without kindness is brutality and kindness without
and kindness without truth is manipulation.
truth is manipulation. >> Say that again.
>> Say that again. >> Truth without kindness is brutality
>> Truth without kindness is brutality and
and kindness without truth is manipulation.
kindness without truth is manipulation. And so when I say like tell your truth,
And so when I say like tell your truth, I don't mean going around like just
I don't mean going around like just being awful to everyone. I mean like
being awful to everyone. I mean like telling the microscopic truth and like
telling the microscopic truth and like having those being willing to have a
having those being willing to have a tolerance for those conversations. One
tolerance for those conversations. One of my favorite metaphors, I actually
of my favorite metaphors, I actually wrote about this recently for being in a
wrote about this recently for being in a relationship with anyone is like you're
relationship with anyone is like you're in it's in a way it's it's a dance. It's
in it's in a way it's it's a dance. It's a fight. Like I think about boxing in
a fight. Like I think about boxing in the sense of like who is going to go
the sense of like who is going to go down to the mat with you and like not
down to the mat with you and like not tap out because
tap out because >> being honest about what's really going
>> being honest about what's really going on is uncomfortable and it's risky as we
on is uncomfortable and it's risky as we talked about earlier. You risk every
talked about earlier. You risk every time you tell the truth of maybe losing
time you tell the truth of maybe losing someone that you love because you don't
someone that you love because you don't know how they're going to respond to
know how they're going to respond to whatever your truth is. But I think to
whatever your truth is. But I think to live that way creates the intimacy and
live that way creates the intimacy and connection that I think we long for
connection that I think we long for >> and also like sets people free in a way.
>> and also like sets people free in a way. You and them truth. Yeah. Truth with
You and them truth. Yeah. Truth with kindness. I think that's I think that's
kindness. I think that's I think that's going to have to be my choice. My factor
going to have to be my choice. My factor of deduction.
of deduction. >> Yeah. The Bhagat Gita gives four
>> Yeah. The Bhagat Gita gives four principles for truth with kindness. The
principles for truth with kindness. The first is what you speak should be
first is what you speak should be truthful.
truthful. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> The second is it should be beneficial to
>> The second is it should be beneficial to all.
all. >> Ooh. The third is it shouldn't agitate
>> Ooh. The third is it shouldn't agitate the minds of others.
the minds of others. >> Wow.
>> Wow. >> And the fourth is it should be aligned
>> And the fourth is it should be aligned with eternal wisdom and timeless wisdom.
with eternal wisdom and timeless wisdom. >> That's beautiful and perfect because
>> That's beautiful and perfect because yeah, I think there's truths which are
yeah, I think there's truths which are if they're not beneficial that do just
if they're not beneficial that do just agitate. I think that's
agitate. I think that's >> and it's not about not saying it. It's
>> and it's not about not saying it. It's the idea that you've thought so much
the idea that you've thought so much about how you say it. Yes. It's not that
about how you say it. Yes. It's not that you've sanitized it because that's the
you've sanitized it because that's the modern day version. The Gita is not
modern day version. The Gita is not telling you to sanitize or be silenced.
telling you to sanitize or be silenced. >> It's telling you to filter your thought
>> It's telling you to filter your thought >> to make sure that the way you say it is
>> to make sure that the way you say it is digestible.
digestible. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> For for everyone who's going to hear it
>> For for everyone who's going to hear it and therefore it actually has
and therefore it actually has transformative power.
transformative power. >> It's not that it's not provocative or
>> It's not that it's not provocative or that it doesn't. It's just that you're
that it doesn't. It's just that you're not saying it in a way to trigger or get
not saying it in a way to trigger or get a reaction.
a reaction. >> You're saying in a way that hits someone
>> You're saying in a way that hits someone like an arrow of truth
like an arrow of truth >> and goes, I have to change.
>> and goes, I have to change. >> Wow. because that person has been so
>> Wow. because that person has been so mindful of how they spoke.
mindful of how they spoke. >> Oh my god, that's incredible. That's
>> Oh my god, that's incredible. That's that's everything I've just been trying
that's everything I've just been trying to say about Yeah. If if we God, if
to say about Yeah. If if we God, if everyone was mindful enough about how
everyone was mindful enough about how they spoke their truth that it could
they spoke their truth that it could just go straight to the heart. Oh
just go straight to the heart. Oh >> yeah.
>> yeah. >> Um
>> Um >> rather than hit the ego along the way
>> rather than hit the ego along the way and the mind. And that's why we can't
and the mind. And that's why we can't talk because everything we say triggers
talk because everything we say triggers someone's mind or their ego and then
someone's mind or their ego and then everything we say does it back. And so
everything we say does it back. And so now we're having a mind and ego debate
now we're having a mind and ego debate which
which >> isn't the one that goes all the way to
>> isn't the one that goes all the way to tap, you know, in your
tap, you know, in your >> We're so focused on defending whatever
>> We're so focused on defending whatever the thing is that we feel that we need
the thing is that we feel that we need to defend that we just can't
to defend that we just can't >> can't get to the heart.
>> can't get to the heart. >> No, you can't hit the heart. Um, so
>> No, you can't hit the heart. Um, so good. So good,
good. So good, >> Emma. Thank you for
>> Emma. Thank you for >> the longest recorded conversation in onp
>> the longest recorded conversation in onp purpose history. We had to change
purpose history. We had to change >> the cards, the cameras. We had to like
>> the cards, the cameras. We had to like and we haven't paused. Just so everyone
and we haven't paused. Just so everyone knows, just so everyone knows, me and
knows, just so everyone knows, me and Emma have not moved. So, we didn't take
Emma have not moved. So, we didn't take a break.
a break. >> There was no bathroom break. There was
>> There was no bathroom break. There was no break of whatever kind. We both sat
no break of whatever kind. We both sat there was no coffee break. We have sat
there was no coffee break. We have sat in these seats for the entire duration
in these seats for the entire duration that you watch this show or listen to
that you watch this show or listen to it. And so Emma, you have the uh you
it. And so Emma, you have the uh you know, to your competitive and winning
know, to your competitive and winning spirit, you have the uh award for
spirit, you have the uh award for longest ever podcast recording.
longest ever podcast recording. >> I I I don't know whether to be mortified
>> I I I don't know whether to be mortified or like seriously embarrassed or uh or
or like seriously embarrassed or uh or like think feel like this is some kind
like think feel like this is some kind of victory of some kind. I guess we've
of victory of some kind. I guess we've sat here for like and not moved for more
sat here for like and not moved for more than 3 hours.
than 3 hours. >> Really? Yeah.
>> Really? Yeah. >> Surely.
>> Surely. >> It's amazing.
>> It's amazing. >> Um that's amazing. Well, thank you for
>> Um that's amazing. Well, thank you for Thank you so much. This has been such an
Thank you so much. This has been such an amazing conversation. If you love this
amazing conversation. If you love this episode, you'll love my interview with
episode, you'll love my interview with Dr. Gabbor Mate on understanding your
Dr. Gabbor Mate on understanding your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds
trauma and how to heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past.
to start moving on from the past. >> Everything in nature grows only where
>> Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable. So, a tree doesn't grow
it's vulnerable. So, a tree doesn't grow where it's hard and thick, does it? It
where it's hard and thick, does it? It goes with soft and green and vulnerable.
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