Hyperliquid is building a decentralized financial system designed to be the "internet for money," emphasizing transparency, fairness, and programmability to upgrade existing financial infrastructure and prepare for a future where AI will necessitate machine-driven value transfer.
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Some pretty smart people in crypto have
only criticized Hyperlid for buying back
the tokens every day. What's the main
problem with this?
>> The main problem is that Hyperlid does
not have a discretionary buyback
program. In the same way that Ethereum
burns its priority fees, in that same
way, Hyperlid burns its protocol fees.
>> Crypto markets have been pretty
disappointing for a lot of people. Why
should people stay in crypto when there
is an AI brain drain? My answer to that
question is
>> Jeff Yan, the founder and CEO of
Hyperlquid Labs,
>> building a layer 1 blockchain with an
onchain order book exchange generating
billions in volume
>> and millions in daily revenue.
>> 1010 was a good example where there was
damage caused because Hyperlid was the
only transparent venue. People kind of
like latched on to it.
>> What do you want Hyperlid to be
remembered for?
>> I don't want it to be remembered for
anything, but I hope Hyperlid becomes
the internet for money.
>> Hyperlid is not a crypto company. It's a
finance company using crypto real. Can
you explain?
>> I think we generally believe in DeFi's
values. I think finance is finance and
crypto has the potential to upgrade the
rails on which people conduct their
financial lives.
>> You often talk about housing all of
finance. What does that mean?
>> It basically means that the financial
system should not be fragmented. The
crypto part of housing all of finance is
that the platform on which people do
this should not be controlled by a
central corporation. There should be
many teams building and when someone
builds something that should
automatically plug in with other teams
building other things and like these
kind of network effects really make it a
financial system. What's the
responsibility that comes with
generating billions of dollars like that
>> Hi everyone. This is the little bit that
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>> What do you think about Singapore?
>> What do I think about it?
>> Uh it's it's very nice. Yeah, it's a
good good place to build. It's super
safe. It's modern. things work and
yeah, it's very boring. People say it's
people say that as a bad thing, but it's
actually a very positive thing for me.
>> It's an amazing finish
>> because you just you just build and it's
it's a perfect place to do that.
>> No distractions.
>> Yeah, we recorded our last episode about
13 or 14 months ago, just before the
hype token launch.
We had crazy views actually about
700,000 across platforms and then the TG
happened. A lot of people got rich. Some
people got very rich.
I think about $1 billion was a drop to
the hyperlquid community and then this
$1 billion became $10 billion in a few months.
months.
How did it feel like watching that for you?
you?
>> I felt very good. Yeah. I think it's
it's rare that the people who are early
to something can all participate in the
upside and gain meaningful ownership
over a network. I think that it's very
special and that's something that I
think is one of the things that
is uniquely crypto. I think crypto is a
bit of a double-edged sword, right?
there's a lot of a lot of negativity due
to the
you know innovative structuring of just
like value creation in crypto but I
think there's also positive stories and
I think it's important to to highlight
those and so it was it was very very
nice to see because often with
you know if you're very early to using chatbt
chatbt
it's not like open AI is going to make
you rich like maybe you built something
really cool but that's if you you know
That's like one in a thousand maybe. But
with Hyperlquid or with crypto in
general, it's it's very cool that simply
by by being early and by providing a
valuable service of participating in a
network where the network effects are so
important, you can become a sort of
meaningful owner of the network. Uh I
think that's very special. Did you have
any moment where you it kind of hit you
emotionally like, "Oh [ __ ] we really
pulled this off, but so many other
people did not manage to." Um,
no one specific moment. I think it's always
always
it's always cool to see the traction,
but we don't we're not very at least I'm
not really of the personality to say
kind of, okay, that's cool, like we made
it. Sort of. I'm always thinking the oh,
but what haven't we done yet? and like
where where should we be and the know
the vision is is so big that it's in
some sense like I you just know you're
never going to get very close very
quickly and I think that's that's a
positive thing as as well because for me
that's the it's it's about the journey
not necessarily the destination.
>> Did you expect that scale of wealth creation?
creation?
>> Not immediately. I I honestly don't
really I also don't really think what I
expect at any point. We're just trying
to do the best we can and we know the
direction we're going and what we're
trying to build, but we don't really
at least I don't write down like I think
a month from now would be great if these
quantitative metrics were hit. like
that's not that's just not something I
do because I think there's so much
outside of our control as contributors
and we need to focus on we need to focus
on doing the right thing and the output
you know is is largely a function of
what we do but also all these things
outside of our control and so um I was
definitely surprised though at the sort
of the overwhelmingly positive
reception. I think it's very nice to
it's very nice to hear things like oh
this is it's like rare it you people say
oh it's cool to see this happening in
crypto this was this is kind of like
what's supposed to happen and it's rare
to find examples when people say things
like that and and they say that you know
Hyperlid has positively represented what
could happen in this space I think
that's that brings me a lot of
fulfillment because I'm a genuine
believer in in this model in free
markets and I think there are so many
examples that people can point to to say
this doesn't work that to be one where
you can argue against those haters I
think is uh is very nice.
>> Do you think
that it's I mean it's obviously
extremely hard to to do what you did but
do you think that enough people are
actually trying to do the right thing
the right way
>> in crypto or in crypto? Um,
I think there is a general mismatch of
between what could get built and the
people trying to build it in crypto. I think
think
I think this is probably due to the bad
reputation crypto has gotten compared to
fields like AI or before AI it might
have been just traditional more
traditional financial
projects you could be building. Uh I think
think
I think if you're just someone who has a
lot of
potential and maybe graduated from a
good school or maybe just are very
talented and want to build something um
I think I today at least I think it's I
think a lot of these people are not even
seriously considering crypto because of
all the negative examples and the it's
sort of associated with
>> people who want to are not serious about
building something but are just kind of
want to
maybe quickly make some amount of money
or something like that. And I think
that's like completely false. Like I
just don't think that's the true
potential of the space. So
>> how do we change that?
>> Well, we're working we just we just
build what we believe in and we when I
say we, I mean the ecosystem broadly.
Like I think Hyperlquid is known for not
really caring about what what the meta
is or like what you know
what people think necessarily about like
theoretically about what should be built
but we just we just kind of like do what
we believe in as a community. And I think
think
I think that's probably the best we can
do is kind of like lead by example. And
there will always be I think as a
permissionless network there are always
sort of unfortunate examples of people
using whatever like trying like using
the community in a bit and then just
kind of like extracting for personal
gain. And it's unfortunate to see that.
But by and large, I think we have a
we've as a community is like very uh
there's there's a great culture and
I think if we just keep doing what we're
doing as a community, the hopefully,
you know, hopefully people pay attention
and it generally draws people to
building DeFi and crypto.
I think a lot of people are paying
attention indeed.
What's the responsibility that comes
with generating billions of dollars like
>> I don't know if the if that specific
if the specific event of the genesis
changes anything about the
responsibility. I think it's
there's inherently a lot of
responsibility in building anything
financial and I think if you kind of
have to give it your all and even then
it's you know it it can feel like
there's just so much to do because
finance is such an important part of
a person's life and when you when
someone uses a financial product
they are
inherently trusting in a very in a way
that you don't you don't have to get the
same trust to a consumer product. And so
yeah, I don't I don't have a great
answer in terms of like
we we basically just like try try our
best and have to we just know we have to execute
execute
flawlessly and maybe that means we we
move slower. Maybe that means we build
things in a way that's much harder to
build. I think there are many such
examples and
and it and it means we have to kind of
always be thinking about the principles of
of
designing a system to be so neutral,
fair and robust to all sorts of market
conditions. And that doesn't really
change with the with the TGE or anything
like even before then people were
trusting Hyperlid with you know being
like an onchain fully verifiable transparent
transparent
version of what they were tired of in in crypto.
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There's really this
before TG after TG moment. And I mean,
we we did this uh podcast maybe a month
before the TG. And one thing that I
always do to test communities because in
crypto there is so much fake stuff and
BS and it's I mean it's it's a
well-known issue, right? So I do a
picture which we did last time. We're
going to do again today and I post it
and see what happens and I saw like
these people going completely crazy and
I was like holy [ __ ] like this is even
bigger than I thought. So it was this
kind of cult but it was kind of like a a
cult a bit hidden. Obviously, there was
the people who understood it, but a lot
of people in crypto did not understand
what's going on, right? And then there
was a TG. And then there was all pretty
much everything done the right way. And
then you went from kind of like a cult
within crypto to the entire crypto cult.
Now you have the entire industry behind
you. How do you make or how do we make
Hyperlquid become
a cult for people outside of crypto who join?
I think you just have to build in a way
that provides value to people. And this
is for every builder, you know, whether
hyperlid or not. And
I think ultimately it is
it's not about it's not about building a
cult though. The I think the cultlike
vibes people associate with Hyperlid is
really just people being passionate about
about
a group of people building towards a
common goal with a value system that
they can really buy into. And I think
that's just because it's kind of rare to
find in crypto. I think people really
align and it kind of feels like a cult.
But I I don't I wouldn't call it a cult
people just coming together and to like
kind of build things in the right way
with the right values and be fair to
everyone and create an open financial
system to me feels like just uh you know
just if I feel like it should be normal
and I think
to on board the whole world basically
we just have to prove as a community
that we can we can build things that
provide value in a way that the legacy
finan cial system cannot and I'm very
confident that that we can. I think the
I think DeFi as a whole has always had
this this promise and that what there
has been
up until now has been more of a it's
been more of a technical disconnect
between the philosophy and what can be
built. You know, open financial systems
are everyone agrees. There's no
controversy that this is a great thing
for the world and it's just a matter of
the execution and
sort of not letting
like not not letting
whatever whether it be like bad people
or like your own vices or something like
that like get in the way. I think
there's a bit of maybe there's a bit of
that kind of temptation for some
builders in the space and I think solve
those two things execution and just like
do things the right way and I think I
think naturally this um this is like a
huge technical upgrade to to the
financial system and I think people
will naturally come on board when uh
when it's clear that this is like an
upgrade. What's one thing that massively
changed on the operational side between
this before token generation event
Nothing really. I think for me it's it's
never really been about
creating X dollars of value or
something. It's always been just
building. And to me, it felt like the
it felt more like a
an important milestone in the network's decentralization
decentralization than
than
an operational difference. Like it's not
like it's not like because now there's
this token that
Hyperlid Labs hired
10x the people or something like that.
It's not like we were waiting for that
to then go like do something for us it
was business as usual. Um
I think at least on the core protocol
side the
it had been clear long before DGE that
the important there was a very important
piece of infrastructure to build which
was having the entire network run
on a custom proof ofstake consensus
mechanism and that this was kind of the
only way to scale the throughput of the
chain without sacrificing UX for end
users and
That was a big unlock because now now
that you have a native token with real
supply distribution, you can actually
decentralize the stake in the network.
And so that felt like a very big
milestone. But yeah, other than that, it
felt like yeah, just keep building and
don't let it
distract us in any any way.
>> How many people do you did you have last
time we spoke?
I don't remember last time, but it
hasn't grown much regardless of what
that number was. Yeah.
>> How do you explain that? I mean,
obviously the the the difference between
a centralized company and a
decentralized company makes sense.
People understand it. You have these big
exchanges have thousands of employees,
right? But if I look at other protocols
that are decentralized
or working on that, they have way more
employees. How do we explain that?
>> Well, one big thing with Hyperlquid is
that the
the building itself is very
decentralized. And I don't think people
give that enough credit. I think it's a
much harder way to ultimately build an
ecosystem that's coherent and also
serves the end user.
So, as an example,
you know, if you're just thinking about
trading, you would think
you would think tokenization, whether
that's bridging in spot assets from
other chains or whether that's
tokenizing RWAs,
it's it's such a core part of the
business that if you look at a
centralized exchange, they have teams of
people focusing on different kind of
uh sources of liquidity.
liquidity.
And there'll be a team that, you know,
does the crypto stuff. There'll be a
team that probably integrates feeds from
traditional finance sources. There'll be
there'll be teams that manage the
different multi-igs and like it's it's a
very as a centralized organization, you
kind of have to have a big umbrella and
then you kind of scale horizontally. And
each of these teams probably has their
own kind of like a team within its own,
right? have yeah it has to have a lead,
it has to have um engineers, it has to
have they have to they have to have
overhead like coordinating with other
teams. Uh with Hyperlid the the protocol
doesn't actually do any of these things.
It's uh Hyperlid is more like a set of
primitives by which anyone can tokenize
anything in different ways. And when you
phrase it that way, then maybe the the
team is, you know, it's not it's not
just the people that Hyperlquid Labs
hires to work on the protocol, but
rather includes all these builders who
are who have massive responsibility
building these very important
building blocks that other builders then
come in and use and plug into. And so it
really is decentralized development of
the network. So, I think that's that's
really the answer. But there there's
that and there's this general answer of
like well
I mean I I personally just like enjoy
working with a fewer number of people
who are very very good and very
committed to building what we're doing
rather than just like a larger set of
people who can kind of each do a very
small part of the job. I think it's just
a different style of of work and um I've
I've always found that it's I I
naturally gravitate towards like smaller teams.
teams. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> How do you decide what's built
internally versus externally?
>> Yeah. The the basic answer is if it can
be built externally, it should be.
And but that's a that's a tough
principle to to really follow because on
a case by case basis it's not always
obvious whether something should be
built internally or externally. Um so I
think that I think HIPP3 for example
which is a a mechanism by which anyone
can in some sense tokenize things not on
the spot side but like it has a
derivative which I think is a much more
capital efficient way to tokenize many
types of instruments. Um, HP3 was a what
had never been attempted before and many
many I think more people thought it
would not work than people who thought
it would. And it was
I think it was a good example of really
following that principle and not
because I I I think the the complaints
are are tough to you can't really
respond to the complaints when when
someone says something like well you
know like I I trade on this other
platform and they just they just do
everything in house and it works exactly
like they say it should And um you can't
really argue with that. You have to kind
of believe in the principle that in the
long in the long run the financial
system is a lot healthier if it's built by
by
a robust set of people operating
coordinating through a permissionless
fair protocol rather than run as one
umbrella organization top down. And
maybe maybe you get you get there faster
if you do it in a fully centralized way,
but you build a much more resilient and
robust and ultimately globally scalable
system if you build it the hard way.
We'll get back to that HIPP3, HIPP 4 obviously
obviously
uh and obviously hyper liquid core values.
values.
I have a question about this 10 or 11
employees. It's like a lot of people
talk about that.
How do you keep them motivated
>> Uh, well, if there's nothing I can do, I
think it's a bit of we we select for
people who we genuinely enjoy working
with and we think are the best at what
they do. And
when you find I think when people are
very good at what they do and kind of
also have this high integrity bar that
we view as a non-negotiable to working
with us, it also I think naturally
selects for people who are not driven by
making a quick financial buck because if
they wanted to do that I think and
they're so smart then they they can
definitely do it in other ways. I think the
the
I like to think at least the people that
we built I'm I'm proud that we we have a
very small team at Hyperlow Labs but
we're we're high values people and we're um
um
you know we're kind of building it we're
we're building it because we gen we love
the the tech and the work and the and
the grind and
and yeah so I mean it it like it
happened and I think people still
are just as motivated and love the
problems we're working on and come to
work every day and are excited to do
what they do. And um I'm sure I'm sure
some people will retire. Uh you know,
we're very supportive of that. I think
people have contributed a ton to get
typog where it is today. But
>> you have some people who
>> No, no one so far. So it's it's been uh
it's been nice. It's like it's another
one of those things where I I didn't
really spend too much time thinking
about it either. It's just like, well,
we'll just we'll roll with the punches
and and see what happens. And um but
I've been, you know, pleasantly
surprised. I guess everyone's still
here. And it seems like every day during
when we chat and talk over all the
problems we're dealing with, it seems
like I I I don't notice any difference.
If anything, I noticed people are
getting more and more excited about what
we're doing and kind of feel more and
more ownership of what what they're, you
know, what problems they're working on.
And I think uh I think that that's a
great sign because that means that means
people are motivated not not by the
amount of value you can extract by the
system, but by the amount of value you
can produce. And I think that's
yeah, it's it's very it's it's a good
feeling to work with these this kind of
energy. Did you guys celebrate at all or
you just kept business as usual? I'm
asking that because I think I'm I'm not
sure if my memory is fooling me, but I
think I read the story of Matang from
Paradigm. They had this example of it
was a web two IPO and they were saying
they had all the champagne waiting there
and the entire team basically came down,
had a glass of water and then just went
back to work until like midnight, right?
So basically there was like
zuo celebration. everyone was completely
locked in like how what happened at
Hyperlquid Labs when this obviously
you're saying this is just a milestone
there's all this future thing we need to
do is there something that people are
celebrating happy about or just like
okay this is just normal like this was
part of the plan and we just focus on
what's next >> um
yeah I don't think there was a I'm
trying to remember if there was I don't
think there was a
>> means there was nothing
>> celebration Um,
yeah, I do think there's a bit of it's
it is a bit sad because we're uh if you
look back, yeah, there were there were
there were many things worth
celebrating, but at in the moment
there's always
more to do and it's never like there's
never like a good time to really just
like pause and celebrate. And so maybe
that's for like
decades down the line when when the
system is fully run on its you know
fully autonomous and uh you know like
there's complete everything is complete
it's just like a financial system that
works maybe then but um but yeah I think
when people are not really
you know maybe people also celebrate in
in their own ways right it's like it's
like we don't at least as a as a
hyperlabs as a as a company we're not
yeah we definitely don't say Hey, like
we launched this feature. Let's like
>> pop the champagne or something. It's
like definitely not something we really
Yeah. not part of the culture, I guess.
>> It's a very good question. I I don't think
think
I don't think there's like a perfect way
to do it, but it's it's a bit of just
you get to know the person. And so when
we interview people at Hyperloop Labs,
we just we do a bunch of technical
things, but we also make sure we work
with them uh for at least a full day.
And I think when when you're kind of
like working with a human being and
it's not in a super time constrained
simulated environment, you get some
sense of what the what the person is
like. Can I think you get I think there
are many soft signals you can get for
whether someone is
you know may maybe there's you know you
never know for sure but maybe there are
some signals where like you don't want
to take that risk and ultimately we we
also make sure that everyone on the team
feels really good about the hire and so
there have been times when
some people are for and some people are
opposed and usually that just means it's
a no. So there's also many independent
assessments of the same.
>> So there's a consensus. You ask everyone
and people kind of vote.
Uh, it's not really a vote because it's
it's like an sort of anyone has a
there's nothing formal here, but it's
it's kind of like if anyone has a say
like a
medium to strong, no higher, then that's
enough usually to to basically veto the
whole thing. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> If it's not a hell yeah, it's a no.
>> Yeah, something like that.
I asked you before how much you sleep,
how much does the team sleep, how much
do you let them sleep
>> or how much do they let themselves sleep?
sleep?
>> Yeah, it really depends on the person. The
>> Yeah, we we we really don't we don't
push people in the on the input side
because I I really think that that's
like a recipe for disaster. Like if
someone's really needs to sleep and
they're not sleeping, then probably
anything they do is worse than if they
that basically that the quality of the
the quality bar is is so high that even
under fully awake circumstances, you
know, someone has to really give it
their all to be able to to do good
engineering. And um
and yeah, so you know, we we we operate
with a high degree of trust. We also
generally don't I don't really believe
in the
Yeah, like everyone's just like pulling
allnighters like like that kind of like
kind of flexing that kind of culture. I
think is a bit I don't know feels a bit
missing the point. Like I personally,
you know, work many more hours than I
think most people who do flex that kind
of culture. But I think it's still very
unhealthy to say that that is the
requirement. And there are many people
on the team who do stay up very late and
work. And then there are people who, you
know, know they have like x productive
hours in a day. And as long as we as
long as they're really sort of producing
the A+ output, then it yeah, we don't care.
Last question on the team, I promise.
There was a lot of FUD the last few
months. One of the big fears of people
who are community members hold the token
was the employee vesting schedule and
the fact that uh about $300 million
worth of token would hit the market
every month for a long time. What has
happened instead so far?
Well, we don't talk publicly about this
because I genuinely believe that
financial privacy is is a right and
that's part of why we're all in crypto
and working in DeFi anyway. And in the
same way that you would not ask
some community member like, hey, like
you you have to tell us like every
everything you're doing with because you
bought this token and you hold a lot of
it. like you must tell us everything
you're doing. I just think there's like
a there's a line to draw and I think the
line is at personal privacy. I think I
think everything should be very
transparent on how the protocol works
like every dollar needs to be accounted
for. Every everything in the system
belong that belongs to a person like
needs to actually belong to that person.
I think that level of transparency is
non-negotiable in a transparent
financial system. when you don't have
that, you have you have all these things
that happen with, you know, centralized exchanges.
exchanges. >> Um,
>> Um,
but like, you know, what what any
contributor chooses to do with their tokens,
tokens,
you know, that's it's their tokens. It's
none of my business.
>> You guys have a pretty interesting way
to handle FUD and criticism at Hyperlid.
You ignore and stay quiet.
>> That's not true. I think we we address
the We used to do that. I think that my
my instincts on this PR stuff I've I've
noticed have not always been naturally
good. And I think I'm happy to defer to
people who are much more wellversed in
this stuff. But one thing we've been a
consciously trying to do is when there's
FUD and
my instinct is to say, well, this is
clearly false. Like let's the truth will
come to light. Like I' i've learned that
that is not always the right mentality.
And to be practical about it, we do we
do address address things that come up
that are false and need to be corrected.
>> Yeah. How do you personally get affected
by thud honestly? >> Um
>> Um
it depends on the category of FUD, I
guess. So there I guess there it's been
a it's been a relatively volatile
and you in the bad direction. uh I would
say like last half year in crypto and so
I think I think 10 10 was a good example
where there was a lot of damage caused
and because Hyperlid was the only
transparent venue, people
kind of like latched on to it and I
think that I took that very you know
like I felt very important like I I was
basically on a on a mission I think that
educate people on this on a topic which
is very at the same time they you know
they take it very
it's a very personal thing because
people like you know could have lost a
lot of money but
I think many competitors from all
different angles were sort of
mispainting hyperlid
mispainting its virtues and what it did
well with
with negativity in a way to like deflect
from real problems on other platforms.
And I think that to me feels like it's
like very obvious that they know what
they're doing. And to me that I, you
know, can feel a bit angry about it, but
also it's it just drives me to like, you
know, get better at, you know,
explaining clearly to users like why
Hyperlid is built the way it is and why
transparency, you know, for example,
with centralized exchanges will say,
"Hey, like look, look at this list that
some analytic site pushed like Hyperlid
had more liquidations than us." And then
we were, it feels so stupid because if
you just look at their docs, which no
one does, it's like, oh, like we only
push the first liquidation in every
second. Like no explanation why. And
well, of course, if you add those
numbers up versus Hyperlid where you can
see every order, every cancel, every
liquidation, everything that happens is
onchain. Of course, you add up you add
up two different numbers, you get you
get different, you know, you you see
like Hyperlquid's total liquidations is
more than whatever it is like 1% of
another exchange's liquidations. Um, and
so that kind of thing is just it's
literally just misinformation. And when
that's when the when some of the biggest
voices with the most followers in the
space do push that kind of narrative, I
think it's, you know, we maybe have a
smaller reach and smaller voices, but I
think we need to be very loud and um
before it kind of gets out of hand.
>> There's a lot of love from people in the
ecosystem, but there's also criticism.
And third, some pretty smart people in
crypto have openly criticized Hyperlid
for buying back the tokens every day and
said that you guys should
stop the buybacks when the price is high,
high,
buy back more when the price is low.
What's the main problem with this?
Well, the the main problem is that
Hyperlid does not have a discretionary
buyback program. And I think that is
that is something that people have run
with as a story but
it is an in analogy at best. Uh
Hyperlood is a protocol. It has it's a
rulesbased protocol. So there is in the
same way that Ethereum burns its
priority fees. You know it used to go to
the miners and now it's burned. And in
this in that same way Hyperlid burns its
protocol fees. uh you would not ask
Ethereum developers to say hey when you
know when ETH's price is high really
like like Vitalic should take all the
priority fees and he he could probably
spend it in a better way than Bernie
like and that's just like not a that's
not a question that anyone asks Ethereum
and I so I I think I think there's a fundamental
fundamental
misunderstanding of the mechanism here
and in particular the I think the reason
here is that many exchanges mostly like
relatively more more centralized
operations whether their sort of C5 D5
hybrids or like purely centralized
exchanges, they will have tokens and
they will buy their tokens back and that
is like maybe a fair piece of feedback
to them. But on Hyperlid, the the fees
are converted in an automated way to
hype and then burn. And this conversion
itself, this strategy is also not
discretionary. It is in fact baked into
the execution logic of the chain itself.
So in the same way that when you place
an onchain t-wop it is not there is no
one sitting there deciding when to split
your order when to split out the next
slice of your t-wop and send it to the
book that is like part of the execution
that's part of the state machine itself
in the same way the um the execution by
which the fees are converted to hype and
then burned is purely onchain logic. Why
is it so important that there is no
discretionary element in what Hyperlid does?
does?
>> Because Hyperlid is not a company. I
think that is another kind of
misunderstanding. So when I say we and I
say Hyperlid Labs, we're a group of
we're we're a group of people. We're
like you said, we're very small. We
build we're small because we build a
small we are responsible for building a
small but critical component of the
larger hyperlquid ecosystem. Uh
yeah, so Hyperlid is not a Hyperlquid
itself is not like a a a thing that has
an analogy in the traditional finance
world. And people like to people people
people don't like to learn new concepts.
They like to
fit something into something they
already understand. And when you try to
do that, you can there are some
parallels, but there are other things
that are just, you know, they just don't
fit. And so the the vision at least is
that the the financial system should be
on chain. I think it's it's great that
it's it is producing so much value and
sort of driving so much value to to the
native token. I think that is a positive
thing. But I but I think it's important
to remember that this is not it is not
the same way that
any company drives value to its
shareholders. Like that is like a that
is one structure. Hyperlid is a is a
neutral platform on which finance is
built. And I think in that way it is not
a perfect analogy either. But maybe
looking at it from another angle it
looks a lot more like like the internet
like what the internet did for
information Hyperlquid as an ecosystem
as a network as a protocol is trying to
do for finance.
Last time you were on, we discussed your
vision of becoming the Amazon Web
Services of liquidity.
Let's discuss what happened since that
time. Let's start with the Hyper EVM.
What is the Hyper EVM? Explain simply,
no jargon.
So, the Hyper EVM itself is
simply a way for people to deploy
contracts that
they're used to deploying on chains such
as Ethereum. they can port it over the
hyperlquid and it will work. So it is at
a very basic level it is a blank slate
on which smart contracts can execute. So
at surface level it looks a lot just like
like
what Ethereum all the innovation
Ethereum had is like it's basically
taking that and allowing that to live on
the hyperlquid L1 state.
Thank you to our friends at Paradex for
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What's your honest take on the success
I think the I think that's kind of a
tricky question. I think well one is I
think it's misunderstood that it has not succeeded.
succeeded.
So I'm happy to give many examples of
things that's done well but maybe maybe
I'll also say that if you drill down one
layer deeper than the basic explanation
the hypervm is actually
a way for these smart contracts for the
first time to tap into native primitives
that are built onchain. And I think that is
is
may maybe something which was a bit you
know hasn't been caught up. I think I
think this needs to be kind of packaged
and I think
when people evaluate the EVM they should
be evaluating it from this angle that it
which is not which doesn't have an
analogy with other
EVM chains. I think people can can
realize that the hypervm is not really
that comparable to like other like fully
self-contained EVM ecosystems.
>> So in a nutshell, people don't
understand yet this thing fully.
>> Um I think people some people understand
it but I think it hasn't really seeped
into the public like narrative about it.
So maybe one good example is like the
like USC for a long time um a criticism
was that you know circle hasn't
integrated and I think it's because it's
very hard to integrate with hyper core.
It's like a completely implement
completely um native implementation of
primitives like uh such as like ledgers
of balances and I think it's very hard
for um
for any company that has existing
infrastructure to interface with general
purpose chains to adopt something like
that. But
but the EVM is like this kind of allows
a way for native USDC to be minted,
you know, fully through fully within
Circle's like first class network, you
know, hub and spoke kind of network of
um supported
minting environments like you can burn
on any chain, mint on any other chain.
Hyper EVM is one of those chains and
I think I think that requires like a
very deep understanding of the point of
the whole thing and so I think I think
there are definitely people who
understand that and I think like you can
see that the kind of I think the thing
is like these integrations actually are
when done right are so
seamless that they
that the user doesn't realize that this
is like only made possible because of
this unique interaction between hyper
core and hypervm and so in some sense
It's harder to kind of get the narrative
out there that like a hypervm is this
like unique thing. People just say like
well I I don't hear about any of these
like these EVM success stories like like
you said like like you know like what's
going on? It's like well the the success
stories are kind of like well one is I
think most of them are yet to be built
but two is like the ones that are built
well I think feel native.
Another thing that you guys implemented
last year that might not have been
necessarily easy to understand for most
people, but we're seeing concrete result
the hyper liquid improvement proposal 3
permissionless purp. What does that
mean? explain simply or as simple as possible.
possible.
>> Yeah. Um
the the simple idea is that pers are
one of the great innovations to come out
of crypto. They actually I think they
were academic literature before crypto,
but it was it was really BitMEX that
made them that demonstrated the
practical application of per as a means
a more efficient means for price
discovery and concentrating liquidity in
one instrument that never expires. And
the idea of HIPP3 is simple.
is it's that there is nothing unique
about crypto
when it comes to per. So there should be pers
pers
on most liquid instruments for which
there are futures and options and
not saying that per
strict improvement over anything but
that there should be per because people
should have the users should have the
option to use pers and
I still think today that if per widely
adopted in traditional finance finance
across many asset classes. I think a
large percentage of the flow would
migrate to perps because pers are the
allow those users to best express their
views on the views that they want to
express and hip 3 is basically
just a simply it's just like letting
anyone deploy per hyperlquid but behind
that sentence there is a lot of work
because again like this is this has kind
of never been built so uh before hip3 so
it was I think there were any open
questions like can it can a protocol really
really
really sort of seed over Oracle such
important things as Oracle updates in
real time to um a permissionless
deployer system and there are just many
many things to think about there deeply
intertwining this like permissionless
nature with how purpose and margining
and things work you you have all of a
sudden have all these different edge
cases and thinking through all those and
just building something relatively robust
robust
around that and also just you know
having the builders do the hard work of
actually integrating it and putting in
the time and the effort to learn
something completely new for the first
time and so commit to building on it. I
think that just all all of that takes
time. And so, like you said, it was it
was probably
I think most people probably thought it
just like wouldn't work. And honestly,
we couldn't say for sure that it was
going to be a success either, but it
felt like it felt like, you know, it
should work this way. And Hyperlquid is
an in unique place where there's such a
strong concentration of talent
building and users who are bought into
the ecosystem who want to support and
bootstrap new network effects. So it
felt like if it was going to succeed
like it it should succeed on Hyperlid.
>> Can you explain the difference between
what you guys are doing and what
everyone else is doing?
I don't know about everyone else, but
every every sort of non-crypto effort at
Pers that I've seen is
an exchange that
runs a per operation
basically saying, well, now we'll get
feeds in these other assets and we'll
just offer them in the same way that we
offer crypto per. So I think you see
that across many centralized exchanges
and you see that across uh various
decentralized exchanges as well.
>> Why does it matter so much what you guys
are doing versus what these other
players are doing? Why should people care?
care?
Well, users and users should not care
about how it works necessarily.
But I think if you really want to move
the financial system on chain
then you need you need deployers who are
domain experts at what they do
like if you look at traditional finance
there are many different countries right
and each country has its own setup for
exchanges and there are like many
different idiosyncrasies and then you
drill down further there are different
asset classes right these asset classes
are traded on different exchanges
different rules
and then there are different interfaces
to these different asset classes within
all the different countries and you just
keep subdividing and you find there's
actually a lot of specialization in
finance and I do think some of that is
some of that probably is due to the
inherent inefficiencies in the legacy
financial system and I do think crypto
solves some of that but I also think a
lot of it is just because finance is is
just too big for one team to build and
and you can structure it as I think like
probably many of many of The biggest
financial companies
will adopt this kind of still
centralized sort of one place for all of
finance unifying the user's financial
life. But they'll they will try to
accomplish that through a more top- down
approach where whether through
acquisitions or partnerships or
um things like that or just literally
building something in house. they will
try to they will try to house all of
finance in that way. But I think that's
a very brittle setup. And I think um
when things blow up, they often they
blow up because there's
too much power in the hands of
one entity. And um it's tough because
that model does just move faster and it
inherently has less fragmentation and
maybe initially offers a better user
experience. But I think users should
ultimately ultimately users will use the
financial system that gives them
sovereignty over their own finances and
is access globally accessible and has
liquidity or whatever other features
they they need. And I I guess I just I
strongly believe that to build such a
system that can really serve all the
users globally plugged into one system
that system needs to be
decentralized on many axes. One of which
is, you know, ownership, which is which
is a a big principle of Hyperlid, but
also um decentralized in terms of uh who
is building the core primitives that
>> In one sentence, why is it so important
to bring all of finance on chain?
>> It's important because Oh, one sentence.
Um it's important because if you don't
then the financial system is going to
fall behind what
like the pace of technological development.
development.
It's not it's not going to it's not
going to keep up basically like the the
world is changing too quickly. I think
the legacy financial system is not going
to is not going to be adequate to to
serve users needs in a rapidly
developing world.
It's not really the hyperlquid approach.
I think hyperlquid is really just
espousing the values that DeFi has
always had and we are just as a
community trying to execute on them in a
way that
we think has a greater chance of
actually succeeding and achieving mass
adoption. And so these values
are that the financial system should not
be controlled by corporations.
corporations.
They should be a neutral layer like the
internet. Um you mentioned the example
of AWS. I think that's like another
example where AWS is like you know it is
controlled by a corporation but in some
sense it's like very neutral, right?
Like nobody treats nobody says hey like
why are you building on AWS? That's such
a that's such an opinionated choice,
right? It's like it is just
infrastructure. And so um the financial
system should have those properties
because it should not be it should not
be a
you should not have to jump through
hoops and be citizens of specific
wellto-do countries just to access the
financial system. And the financial
system should be programmable in a in a
very deep sense. Like not not in a not
like a system that's not programmable
with programmable bells and whistles
tacked onto it, which is more of the
fintech approach, but it should be built
programmably from the ground up. Like
the the primitives should be code that
you know smart contracts, humans, agents
can all interact with.
If the approach is better, the numbers
should be better.
Can you give us some key numbers that
show that Hyperlid is doing perpetual
markets the right way?
So, I I'm still going to say that it is
early. I think the
I think that the future is never certain and
and
I think the numbers today don't
necessarily reflect like whether
long-term it is going to be successful
or not. That being said, I do think the
numbers justify
somewhat already the the power of a
permissionless protocol that allows
deployers to really express creatively
express their
abilities and sort of execute on their
visions. So um I mean one one key
example that's very topical is that
silver along with other metals has been
um has really taken
has really taken the sort of retail and
um general like mind share among trading
folks. Um I think it's a mix of
institutional retail I guess and
something like doing 10 sigma moves many
days in a row. It's uh it's pretty wild
and I think the HIPP3 markets on
Hyperlid um predominantly uh Trade XYZ
which was the first um deployer
um have I believe reached approximately
2% of global price discover like global
volume on silver which is a small number
but if you think about it in the grand
scheme of things It's
not that small of a number and no just
just given the fact that
these HIPP3 markets really launched
a few months ago. Uh I think it's I
think it's quite astonishing and I mean
think of credit where credit's due like
it's this is nothing to do with the core
team like we are we're focused on
building the primitives right like a lot
of work goes in HIPP3 but how that
primitive how that liquidity
infrastructure is used is entirely up to
the builders who choose to use it and so
um I think it really is a testament to
the quality of builders who are like
choose who are choosing Hyperlid because today
today
because it's the only platform that lets
them accomplish what they're setting out
to build.
>> Tell me a bit more about what you said
before. You said the numbers are
starting to be interesting, but it's
still early and therefore
things might not go into that direction.
What makes you say that?
Uh, I think it's just very dangerous to
assume that because you have
a belief about something that and
there's like some evidence that it's
correct that that it's
unassalable. I think the I think the
world just changes too quickly. And I
think it's important to have unassalable principles
principles
like the financial system should be
accessible to everyone in the world and
it you know finance and information
should be sort of on the same level of
sort of yeah should should be treated
similarly in these open systems.
these principles I don't think I don't
think change but
I think anything concrete it's very
dangerous to fixate on um
and I think that's I think a big a big
thinking a big motivation behind what
what core primitives are
built into the blockchain I think I
think a lot of what goes into that is a
bunch of builders and users from
saying that, hey, like this this thing I
want to do this thing and like it
doesn't really work today. And when a
and you notice like some pattern between
what they're saying, there's like some
intersection and like that intersection
is like
is like some nugget of like
functionality that doesn't exist, then I think
think
I think
you can have a lot more confidence that
this kind of primitive is the right
thing to build to build into the
into into a native implementation. And
when you when you're very very selective
about what the protocol does versus like
what is just done on the EVM general
purpose um I think I think you get a
much more elegant system that is
resilient to what specific businesses
businesses
you know like you basically create
something where builders can adapt to
what markets actually are doing without
being too you know yeah basically like
like moving the opinionated decisions um
out of the primitives themselves. So I
think this HIPP all the HIPP3s all the
HIPPs including HP3 have this kind of backstory.
backstory.
We talked about spot training briefly before
before
and that it was not built by the core team.
team.
It was built by a team called unit. What
has the uni team demonstrated in 2025?
There was actually there were a few very
important launches in 2025 where
hyperlid was the leading source of spot
price discovery. And I think this was
the first time that this happened on a
decentralized venue. So I think the I
think XPL was one of them. Um,
Um,
I think that the basically the idea behind
behind
in some sense spot trading is the
closest to Satoshi's original
peer-to-peer vision because really when
you're trading spot, you are you are essentially transferring funds on a
essentially transferring funds on a ledger, right? Like someone is
ledger, right? Like someone is transferring
transferring the quote asset to another person and
the quote asset to another person and that same person is transferring the
that same person is transferring the base asset, the first person. And so the
base asset, the first person. And so the protocol, the order book, an on-train
protocol, the order book, an on-train order book, all of that is just a
order book, all of that is just a mechanism
mechanism to intermediate these transfers. And so
to intermediate these transfers. And so if you were to ask Satoshi, how should
if you were to ask Satoshi, how should Bitcoin be traded? I'm very confident
Bitcoin be traded? I'm very confident that
that they would have said that that it should
they would have said that that it should be done in a fully onchain way and that
be done in a fully onchain way and that maybe Bitcoin is not necessarily the
maybe Bitcoin is not necessarily the right network to do it. But uh but it
right network to do it. But uh but it should be done peer-to-peer and you know
should be done peer-to-peer and you know Hyperlquid does a lot of stuff and this
Hyperlquid does a lot of stuff and this is like very core to the DNA. But I
is like very core to the DNA. But I think with spot trading you can really
think with spot trading you can really see that when you when all the pieces
see that when you when all the pieces really are there that users do prefer to
really are there that users do prefer to do to transact in a way that is coherent
do to transact in a way that is coherent with crypto itself. Like they are they
with crypto itself. Like they are they are trading spot crypto usually because
are trading spot crypto usually because they are believers in the vision of
they are believers in the vision of crypto and DeFi. and to be able to
crypto and DeFi. and to be able to finally after so many years transact in
finally after so many years transact in a way without sacrificing UX that is
a way without sacrificing UX that is still consistent with the technological
still consistent with the technological underpinnings of the asset you're
underpinnings of the asset you're holding itself um feels a bit like going
holding itself um feels a bit like going full circle and I think it's uh I think
full circle and I think it's uh I think it's it's very cool to see
there's some um videos circulating on X about baby Jeff or younger Jeff in 2018
about baby Jeff or younger Jeff in 2018 18
18 launching prediction markets at the same
launching prediction markets at the same time as Kali where it didn't work out.
time as Kali where it didn't work out. Why?
Why? There are many reasons. The the best
There are many reasons. The the best answer is probably just that it like
answer is probably just that it like we the people building it were not
we the people building it were not we weren't ready and it was the idea was
we weren't ready and it was the idea was really cool. I think we I think we had
really cool. I think we I think we had gotten many things right on the
gotten many things right on the infrastructure side
infrastructure side offchain matching at that time was the
offchain matching at that time was the right way to go onchain settlement
right way to go onchain settlement but there's a lot more that goes into
but there's a lot more that goes into building something successful than
building something successful than simply having the right ideas and the
simply having the right ideas and the ideas are actually a very very small
ideas are actually a very very small part of it so I think that it was not
part of it so I think that it was not obvious to me at least at that time that
obvious to me at least at that time that anyone actually wanted to use onchain
anyone actually wanted to use onchain products uh towards the end of you know
products uh towards the end of you know when we when the idea first started it
when we when the idea first started it was everyone was super happy and prices
was everyone was super happy and prices were up and then towards the end of that
were up and then towards the end of that year prices were way down and I think
year prices were way down and I think we've seen this many times time and time
we've seen this many times time and time again in crypto but if if it's your
again in crypto but if if it's your first time seeing it you and you talk to
first time seeing it you and you talk to users and you can't literally no one
users and you can't literally no one will try your product I think I think it
will try your product I think I think it can be very disheartening and so um yeah
can be very disheartening and so um yeah I think but still like learned a lot
I think but still like learned a lot learned a lot about what it takes to
learned a lot about what it takes to build and I think
build and I think Yeah, in some sense the idea kind of
Yeah, in some sense the idea kind of lives on, right? And I'm really glad to
lives on, right? And I'm really glad to see all these other companies who who
see all these other companies who who started, like you said, started around
started, like you said, started around the same time. I think you know, they
the same time. I think you know, they they they did have it have what it takes
they they did have it have what it takes and and are continuing to they're
and and are continuing to they're finally starting to see the the fruits
finally starting to see the the fruits of of their years of hard work and uh
of of their years of hard work and uh sort of general mass adoption. I think
sort of general mass adoption. I think that's like super cool to see. I'm
that's like super cool to see. I'm really happy for all of them.
really happy for all of them. Eight years later, you're back with
Eight years later, you're back with prediction markets or more precisely
prediction markets or more precisely outcome markets. What's the difference?
outcome markets. What's the difference? Yeah. So, this goes back to the point
Yeah. So, this goes back to the point earlier where
earlier where I think primitives on Hyperlid
I think primitives on Hyperlid are meant to be as
are meant to be as small and self-contained as possible to
small and self-contained as possible to be simple and performant, but also as
be simple and performant, but also as broadly useful as possible. And so the
broadly useful as possible. And so the the thinking behind so basically outcome
the thinking behind so basically outcome markets are the are what I think will
markets are the are what I think will be a core way that people express
be a core way that people express nonlinear beliefs on hyperlquid. So
nonlinear beliefs on hyperlquid. So >> yeah, so spot and pers are very
>> yeah, so spot and pers are very different, right? Spot is the
different, right? Spot is the fundamental asset that you hold and when
fundamental asset that you hold and when you trade it, you are transferring
you trade it, you are transferring things on the ledger. Like that is a
things on the ledger. Like that is a primitive that obviously should exist on
primitive that obviously should exist on any financial system. No controversy
any financial system. No controversy about that. Per more controversy, but
about that. Per more controversy, but people are starting to realize that, you
people are starting to realize that, you know, this is like a a an important
know, this is like a a an important enough of an idea that really kind of
enough of an idea that really kind of ought to exist generally for price
ought to exist generally for price discovery. And so we were I think HIPP3
discovery. And so we were I think HIPP3 was like an early crystallization of
was like an early crystallization of that idea and a lot of effort there. Um
that idea and a lot of effort there. Um but if you look at spot and persp while
but if you look at spot and persp while they're very different on many many
they're very different on many many aspects right they you know per allow
aspects right they you know per allow leverage more capital efficiency spot
leverage more capital efficiency spot represents tokenization of an actual
represents tokenization of an actual asset um spot per similar in the sense
asset um spot per similar in the sense that you can only express linear beliefs
that you can only express linear beliefs like if you hold pers no matter whether
like if you hold pers no matter whether you're at 1x or 100x leverage you're
you're at 1x or 100x leverage you're still like when the price moves one unit
still like when the price moves one unit you make n units of profit or loss and
you make n units of profit or loss and um for a wide variety of use cases that
um for a wide variety of use cases that is what the user wants and often people
is what the user wants and often people who want leverage to trade per actually
who want leverage to trade per actually achieve the leverage because per is not
achieve the leverage because per is not available through things like options
available through things like options which uh are not actually doing what
which uh are not actually doing what they want to do. Um but on the flip side
they want to do. Um but on the flip side I think there are people who actually do
I think there are people who actually do want convexity like nonlinear outcomes
want convexity like nonlinear outcomes for example they want um they want
for example they want um they want something that is either worth one or
something that is either worth one or zero dollars depending on some something
zero dollars depending on some something that happens or they want something that
that happens or they want something that is bounded. So like you might hold some
is bounded. So like you might hold some Bitcoin and you might say I'm generally
Bitcoin and you might say I'm generally pretty happy holding this but if it
pretty happy holding this but if it drops below some price then I would like
drops below some price then I would like to be protected to the downside. These
to be protected to the downside. These are nonlinear beliefs and you cannot
are nonlinear beliefs and you cannot express these beliefs through any
express these beliefs through any combination of spot and per. And so
combination of spot and per. And so that's this is where outcome markets
that's this is where outcome markets come in. And once you have a nonlinear
come in. And once you have a nonlinear payout structure that outcomes give you
payout structure that outcomes give you um and just just like in case people
um and just just like in case people haven't deduced already, the outcome
haven't deduced already, the outcome markets are basically um they're
markets are basically um they're basically fully collateralized
basically fully collateralized uh contracts that where both sides put
uh contracts that where both sides put up some capital and then the the thing
up some capital and then the the thing kind of settles somewhere in between. So
kind of settles somewhere in between. So there's like some exchange of um
there's like some exchange of um collateral at settlement. uh and it
collateral at settlement. uh and it could be binary and it could be
could be binary and it could be continuous and so it
continuous and so it >> so for example options prediction
>> so for example options prediction markets
markets >> prediction markets yes
>> prediction markets yes >> do you have another few examples
>> do you have another few examples >> uh
>> uh >> that are very concrete that people can
>> that are very concrete that people can think of even even though it's not
think of even even though it's not completely extensive obviously
completely extensive obviously >> yeah basically anything where you don't
>> yeah basically anything where you don't want there to be liquidation
want there to be liquidation risk
risk >> um so
>> um so people who want to
people want to express an opinion where they roughly put up some capital and
they roughly put up some capital and check back later and they like kind of
check back later and they like kind of have more or less and uh yeah there's no
have more or less and uh yeah there's no there's no complicated thing about like
there's no complicated thing about like oh like depending on how the price moved
oh like depending on how the price moved I might have been liquidated or or like
I might have been liquidated or or like uh
uh something something more complicated
something something more complicated like like also like funding is a
like like also like funding is a complicated mechanism with purps are
complicated mechanism with purps are just like a relatively advanced feature
just like a relatively advanced feature that I think will continue to drive a
that I think will continue to drive a lot of price discovery But like you
lot of price discovery But like you said, these these um more yeah these
said, these these um more yeah these basically different applications. I
basically different applications. I think options and prediction markets are
think options and prediction markets are kind of the obvious ones that come to my
kind of the obvious ones that come to my mind. I think they're also like
mind. I think they're also like derivatives of these ideas that are very
derivatives of these ideas that are very popular these days. Like um can we have
popular these days. Like um can we have markets that
markets that aggregate opinions in a way where
aggregate opinions in a way where there's no objective outcome but rather
there's no objective outcome but rather the opinions are aggregated towards some
the opinions are aggregated towards some goal like maybe like bubbling up the
goal like maybe like bubbling up the important issues, right? like can we use
important issues, right? like can we use markets to kind of solve these ideas? Um
markets to kind of solve these ideas? Um I think these all fit naturally into um
I think these all fit naturally into um yeah this outcome framework
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You often talk about housing all of finance. What does that mean?
It basically means that the financial system should
system should not be fragmented.
not be fragmented. That's the all it should you should not
That's the all it should you should not have to plug into a bank account and
have to plug into a bank account and then like you know but if you want to if
then like you know but if you want to if you want to buy something you need to
you want to buy something you need to like transfer the funds to this other
like transfer the funds to this other account where you then or maybe end
account where you then or maybe end other accounts depending on what you
other accounts depending on what you want to buy. I think like composibility
want to buy. I think like composibility like having a user's financial life in
like having a user's financial life in one place uh is a huge unlock and then
one place uh is a huge unlock and then but that is not unique to crypto. Um the
but that is not unique to crypto. Um the the crypto part of housing all the
the crypto part of housing all the finance is that the the platform on
finance is that the the platform on which people do this should also not be
which people do this should also not be of controlled by a like a central
of controlled by a like a central corporation or
corporation or something of that sort. I guess should
something of that sort. I guess should be there should be many teams building
be there should be many teams building and when someone builds something that
and when someone builds something that should automatically plug in compose
should automatically plug in compose with like other teams building other
with like other teams building other things and like this kind of these kind
things and like this kind of these kind of network effects um really make it a
of network effects um really make it a financial system right so there kind
financial system right so there kind there's like always this trade-off
there's like always this trade-off between fragmentation and
between fragmentation and sort of efficiency um and
sort of efficiency um and so I guess like fragmentation
so I guess like fragmentation fragmentation but compos composability
fragmentation but compos composability is like one end of the spectrum and then
is like one end of the spectrum and then like inefficient but like uh sort of
like inefficient but like uh sort of more limited system that's like
more limited system that's like centrally operated is on the other end
centrally operated is on the other end of the spectrum and there's kind of like
of the spectrum and there's kind of like always this there it feels like there's
always this there it feels like there's this like constant tension but I think
this like constant tension but I think done right you can kind of get the pros
done right you can kind of get the pros of both sides um and that's yeah that
of both sides um and that's yeah that kind of that drives a lot of the design
kind of that drives a lot of the design philosophy behind what we do
philosophy behind what we do >> you told me
>> you told me that hyperlquid is not a crypto company.
that hyperlquid is not a crypto company. It's a finance company using crypto
It's a finance company using crypto rails. I mean company might not be the
rails. I mean company might not be the right word, right?
right word, right? Can you explain?
Can you explain? Well, I think it is a def I think we
Well, I think it is a def I think we genuinely believe in genuinely believe
genuinely believe in genuinely believe in DeFi's values.
in DeFi's values. >> Um so in that sense I think it is a we
>> Um so in that sense I think it is a we it is like crypto defi are in our DNA.
it is like crypto defi are in our DNA. Um,
Um, but I don't think we identify with
but I don't think we identify with being, for example, like a building a
being, for example, like a building a crypto the best crypto exchange or
crypto the best crypto exchange or something like that. Um, that's
something like that. Um, that's yeah, that's just not really the vision.
yeah, that's just not really the vision. I think the
I think the I think finance is finance and crypto
I think finance is finance and crypto has the potential to upgrade the rails
has the potential to upgrade the rails on which people conduct their financial
on which people conduct their financial lives. And so that is the goal to which
lives. And so that is the goal to which we are building. And so like if
we are building. And so like if Hyperlquid as an ecosystem is to succeed
Hyperlquid as an ecosystem is to succeed then some people might say hey this is
then some people might say hey this is great like crypto was vindicated and
great like crypto was vindicated and that's I think that that's a fine
that's I think that that's a fine interpretation but then other people
interpretation but then other people will say well there's this new thing
will say well there's this new thing that happened and they like use some
that happened and they like use some ideas uh but ultimately it's like it's
ideas uh but ultimately it's like it's like a thing of its own and I think
like a thing of its own and I think that's also an okay interpretation.
that's also an okay interpretation. Hyper liquid has uh 11 core team members
Hyper liquid has uh 11 core team members but also has an ecosystem of some of the
but also has an ecosystem of some of the smartest people and builders out there.
smartest people and builders out there. Let's talk about a few of them.
Let's talk about a few of them. Hyper liquid has a stable coin called
Hyper liquid has a stable coin called USDH. Why?
USDH. Why? Yeah, basically the
Yeah, basically the about half a year or a year ago there
about half a year or a year ago there was a big stable coin
was a big stable coin interest uh broadly across um multiple
interest uh broadly across um multiple blockchains. The Genius Act passed. Uh
blockchains. The Genius Act passed. Uh there was general great excitement about
there was general great excitement about stable coins being the way that the
stable coins being the way that the institutions
institutions get first introduced to DeFi rails and
get first introduced to DeFi rails and Hyperlquid has a protocolized
Hyperlquid has a protocolized concept called an alliance stable coin.
concept called an alliance stable coin. And this came after much back and forth
And this came after much back and forth with many of the different part uh
with many of the different part uh ecosystem participants. And ultimately
ecosystem participants. And ultimately the protocol settled on this way by
the protocol settled on this way by which yield can flow from the
which yield can flow from the treasuries to a mixture of the protocol
treasuries to a mixture of the protocol and the deployer of the stable coin. And
and the deployer of the stable coin. And USC is run by native markets. their uh
USC is run by native markets. their uh their team of you know a mix of of
their team of you know a mix of of wellestablished
wellestablished know institutional uh founders and as
know institutional uh founders and as well as some very strong ecosystem uh
well as some very strong ecosystem uh community members and so I think they're
community members and so I think they're they're a really good group of people
they're a really good group of people and um excited to see them build out the
and um excited to see them build out the the premier aligned stable coin uh on
the premier aligned stable coin uh on the on Hyperlid and these stable coins
the on Hyperlid and these stable coins basically um they're very symbiotic
basically um they're very symbiotic relationship with the builders and apps
relationship with the builders and apps that end users that use the stable coin.
that end users that use the stable coin. For example, the the protocol earns
For example, the the protocol earns yield and in that way the the holders of
yield and in that way the the holders of hype are aligned with the stable coin
hype are aligned with the stable coin and then the traders who use the stable
and then the traders who use the stable coin also pay lower fees and this is all
coin also pay lower fees and this is all encoded at the protocol level. So
encoded at the protocol level. So there's no you know it's a purely
there's no you know it's a purely objective system. Um but we think it's a
objective system. Um but we think it's a it's a great synergy and it's going to
it's a great synergy and it's going to unlock a entirely new set of use cases
unlock a entirely new set of use cases that way.
that way. What is Kinetic and why does it matter
What is Kinetic and why does it matter for the hyperlquid ecosystem?
for the hyperlquid ecosystem? >> Yeah, Kinetic is the biggest liquid
>> Yeah, Kinetic is the biggest liquid staking token. Um, and they they
staking token. Um, and they they highlight one of the key parts of the
highlight one of the key parts of the Hyper EVM vision which is that there are
Hyper EVM vision which is that there are these mechanisms. Uh we talked earlier
these mechanisms. Uh we talked earlier about how hypervm sort of uh has windows
about how hypervm sort of uh has windows into hyper core and can use it as tools
into hyper core and can use it as tools for the smart contracts and this allows
for the smart contracts and this allows liquid liquid staking to be built uh in
liquid liquid staking to be built uh in a completely onchain way. So usually
a completely onchain way. So usually staking is built at a layer deeper than
staking is built at a layer deeper than the application layer. So the premier
the application layer. So the premier liquid staking token um like staked ETH
liquid staking token um like staked ETH on Ethereum is
on Ethereum is is tokenized but there's an offchain
is tokenized but there's an offchain component to the tokenization on
component to the tokenization on Hyperlid the staking itself
Hyperlid the staking itself these actions and sort of um the read
these actions and sort of um the read and the write operations required for
and the write operations required for staking can be conducted via
staking can be conducted via pre-ompiles and the core writer
pre-ompiles and the core writer primitives that allow a smart contract
primitives that allow a smart contract contract to tokenize a
contract to tokenize a pool of staked hype in the same way that
pool of staked hype in the same way that vaults are tokenized on the EVM on EVMs
vaults are tokenized on the EVM on EVMs usually um but also do the staking and
usually um but also do the staking and unstaking and um accounting uh entirely
unstaking and um accounting uh entirely closed loop like in that system and so
closed loop like in that system and so it's very cool because it's the first
it's very cool because it's the first fully onchain u mechanism by which
fully onchain u mechanism by which liquid staking tokens can be created and
liquid staking tokens can be created and so eliminates all sort of bridging and
so eliminates all sort of bridging and trust risk that way
trust risk that way what hyper Hyperland is building
what hyper Hyperland is building important for Hyperlquid.
important for Hyperlquid. >> Yes. So, Hyperland is the is the premier
>> Yes. So, Hyperland is the is the premier borrow lending protocol on the EVM. They
borrow lending protocol on the EVM. They they've had a they've had a quite a
they've had a they've had a quite a spike in in TVL since launch. I think
spike in in TVL since launch. I think it's a function of just, you know,
it's a function of just, you know, constant iteration and and hard work on
constant iteration and and hard work on their part. And currently, it is fully
their part. And currently, it is fully on the EVM. So, the, you know, suppliers
on the EVM. So, the, you know, suppliers supply collateral and borrowers come and
supply collateral and borrowers come and borrow. And there's a there's basically
borrow. And there's a there's basically supply and demand marketplace for that
supply and demand marketplace for that determines the the uh rate basically
determines the the uh rate basically that the that the borrowers pay the
that the that the borrowers pay the suppliers and this is a common idea but
suppliers and this is a common idea but I think it will become very important
I think it will become very important when uh portfolio margin on hypercore um
when uh portfolio margin on hypercore um leaves the pre-off stage because I guess
leaves the pre-off stage because I guess we never talked about portfolio margin
we never talked about portfolio margin but the the basic idea there is that um
but the the basic idea there is that um traders want to be able to use any asset
traders want to be able to use any asset that they own um or certainly any of
that they own um or certainly any of their very liquid assets that they own
their very liquid assets that they own such as bitcoin as collateral and they
such as bitcoin as collateral and they want to be able to trade anything with
want to be able to trade anything with that not just a specific market. So
that not just a specific market. So basically reduce fragmentation and also
basically reduce fragmentation and also increase the set of assets which help
increase the set of assets which help onboard to purpose trading or other
onboard to purpose trading or other types of spot trading. And so for
types of spot trading. And so for portfolio margin to work in a defi
portfolio margin to work in a defi setting,
setting, the only safe way to really build it and
the only safe way to really build it and the kind of reason that it hasn't been
the kind of reason that it hasn't been built at scale with great success in in
built at scale with great success in in a DeFi setting is that it requires a
a DeFi setting is that it requires a robust borrow lend um backdrop to it
robust borrow lend um backdrop to it because on a centralized venue when when
because on a centralized venue when when an exchange allows a user to use
an exchange allows a user to use portfolio margin, they have the power to
portfolio margin, they have the power to mint balances out of nothing. So, a user
mint balances out of nothing. So, a user can put Bitcoin up and the exchange can
can put Bitcoin up and the exchange can just extend them um a free line of
just extend them um a free line of credit to trade um stable coin
credit to trade um stable coin denominated per example. And this is a
denominated per example. And this is a it it's usually okay because the
it it's usually okay because the exchange just knows that because there's
exchange just knows that because there's collateral sitting there, the the fake
collateral sitting there, the the fake balance can ultimately be covered by the
balance can ultimately be covered by the collateral. But in the black swan
collateral. But in the black swan events, I think it's uh this is what
events, I think it's uh this is what leads to bad debt on the platform. And I
leads to bad debt on the platform. And I think it's it's to give the exchanges
think it's it's to give the exchanges credit like they it's an extremely
credit like they it's an extremely complicated problem and they've managed
complicated problem and they've managed it generally pretty well. Um I think
it generally pretty well. Um I think these exchanges are are are serious
these exchanges are are are serious businesses and they they take they take
businesses and they they take they take these things seriously and the portfolio
these things seriously and the portfolio margin is a very important feature they
margin is a very important feature they offer the users. But this solution is
offer the users. But this solution is simply not acceptable for a DeFi
simply not acceptable for a DeFi platform like a a user because if a D5
platform like a a user because if a D5 platform were to follow this kind of
platform were to follow this kind of model then the protocol is basically
model then the protocol is basically taking risk like anyone who has any
taking risk like anyone who has any funds on the protocol sort of has
funds on the protocol sort of has solveny risk uh for portfolio margin uh
solveny risk uh for portfolio margin uh collateral gone bad and that undermines
collateral gone bad and that undermines the core principles of the system which
the core principles of the system which is that every dollar is accounted for or
is that every dollar is accounted for or in some sense if you don't you don't
in some sense if you don't you don't want to you don't want to say if there's
want to you don't want to say if there's a dollar on hyperlquid that dollar
a dollar on hyperlquid that dollar actually you know has all these other
actually you know has all these other like asterisks and like um that's just
like asterisks and like um that's just not not a not a trade-off to be made in
not not a not a trade-off to be made in DeFi and so when there's portfolio
DeFi and so when there's portfolio margin hyperlquid is a novel system
margin hyperlquid is a novel system where the lending markets fully back the
where the lending markets fully back the borrow the borrowing and lending
borrow the borrowing and lending mechanisms of a lending market fully
mechanisms of a lending market fully back the portfolio margin operations and
back the portfolio margin operations and this is similar to HP3. This is a much
this is similar to HP3. This is a much more challenging way to build the same
more challenging way to build the same feature that users may not even realize
feature that users may not even realize is happening behind the scenes, but
is happening behind the scenes, but ultimately is a more robust and scalable
ultimately is a more robust and scalable way to to um responsibly have a protocol
way to to um responsibly have a protocol allow this kind of alternative
allow this kind of alternative collateral. And the any spike in demand
collateral. And the any spike in demand is not met with increased platform risk
is not met with increased platform risk but rather met with a brief increase in
but rather met with a brief increase in uh borrow rates which is then met with
uh borrow rates which is then met with you know just met with efficient markets
you know just met with efficient markets uh suppliers coming in and capturing
uh suppliers coming in and capturing that and basically competing the spread
that and basically competing the spread back complete complete competing the
back complete complete competing the yield rates back down to the market
yield rates back down to the market rates. And so I see hyperlend and other
rates. And so I see hyperlend and other lending protocols plugging into this in
lending protocols plugging into this in a very uh very symbiotic way. So the
a very uh very symbiotic way. So the basically portfolio margin hyper core
basically portfolio margin hyper core will drive demand out to the EVM and the
will drive demand out to the EVM and the EVM will be the hyperVm will be the
EVM will be the hyperVm will be the tokenization mechanism by which borrow
tokenization mechanism by which borrow lend is um achieves uh distribution
lend is um achieves uh distribution outside of hypercore.
outside of hypercore. I saw you say on a panel last year,
I saw you say on a panel last year, we have no competition.
we have no competition. I also lost. I think many people did.
I also lost. I think many people did. Are you in denial or is there something
Are you in denial or is there something that most people still don't understand
that most people still don't understand about hyperlquid?
about hyperlquid? >> Uh well, I think the qu the question was
>> Uh well, I think the qu the question was probably like who is exactly competing
probably like who is exactly competing with you or something like that. I think
with you or something like that. I think my point was not that I think there are
my point was not that I think there are many competitors in some sense because
many competitors in some sense because hyperlquid is is something unique at the
hyperlquid is is something unique at the intersection of many things. There are
intersection of many things. There are just so many players in finance and I
just so many players in finance and I think many people many people view
think many people many people view hyperode as competitors where I don't
hyperode as competitors where I don't think it's actually correct to do so
think it's actually correct to do so like I think there's actually a lot of
like I think there's actually a lot of synergy between many different protocols
synergy between many different protocols and I think slowly you see this
and I think slowly you see this happening where different protocols add
happening where different protocols add hyper as a chain and like just the other
hyper as a chain and like just the other day I hear from different builders
day I hear from different builders saying hey like we launched this thing
saying hey like we launched this thing like we're multi-chain like but we
like we're multi-chain like but we launched uh this structure product and
launched uh this structure product and and hype on hype and like we're really
and hype on hype and like we're really shocked because this is like the number
shocked because this is like the number one the number one product that uh we've
one the number one product that uh we've launched in the past year or something
launched in the past year or something like that. So like these stories I think
like that. So like these stories I think will continue to unfold and so I really
will continue to unfold and so I really think it is there's a general sense of
think it is there's a general sense of like competition when in fact there
like competition when in fact there should be cooperation and competition.
should be cooperation and competition. Um but it's not delusional. I also I
Um but it's not delusional. I also I also do just think that Hyperlid is
also do just think that Hyperlid is building something that no one else is
building something that no one else is really precisely trying to build. And
really precisely trying to build. And I think part of that is just because
I think part of that is just because what Hypoid is building is largely a
what Hypoid is building is largely a function of where the ecosystem is and
function of where the ecosystem is and how it's gotten to this point today.
how it's gotten to this point today. It's not it hasn't all been fun in
It's not it hasn't all been fun in games, right? You know, I've been
games, right? You know, I've been working on this for more than three
working on this for more than three years. I think many of the community
years. I think many of the community members have been here for just as long
members have been here for just as long from day one. And there's been there
from day one. And there's been there have been many many like ups and downs.
have been many many like ups and downs. And I think the trajectory of any
And I think the trajectory of any ecosystem is it's it's ultimately path
ecosystem is it's it's ultimately path dependent. And I think the fact that
dependent. And I think the fact that Hyperloop got here with a no insider
Hyperloop got here with a no insider principle from from day one and this
principle from from day one and this general principle of fairness and
general principle of fairness and welcoming for builders and users. And I
welcoming for builders and users. And I think just like no matter how much it
think just like no matter how much it grows, I hope we hold on to that because
grows, I hope we hold on to that because I think that is ultimately what drives
I think that is ultimately what drives hyper liquid to build something that is
hyper liquid to build something that is not uh not really being attempted by
not uh not really being attempted by anyone else. Right. I don't see I don't
anyone else. Right. I don't see I don't see when people launch per like you said
see when people launch per like you said like no no no one says like hey like we
like no no no one says like hey like we trust the community we trust builders to
trust the community we trust builders to come and and execute just as well and
come and and execute just as well and there will there'll be fragmentation
there will there'll be fragmentation there will be competition between them
there will be competition between them but ultimately what's going to come out
but ultimately what's going to come out of that is a more robust system uh I
of that is a more robust system uh I think that story's unfolded many many
think that story's unfolded many many times hyperl and I think will continue
times hyperl and I think will continue unfolding and each time there will be a
unfolding and each time there will be a doubt about whether the community can
doubt about whether the community can come together and build something better
come together and build something better than a centralized alternative and uh
than a centralized alternative and uh but we're just going to keep fighting
but we're just going to keep fighting that fight and I think that is the
that fight and I think that is the unique thing that we're building that I
unique thing that we're building that I don't think there's a a I can't point to
don't think there's a a I can't point to an exact competitor on on that front.
an exact competitor on on that front. You talk a lot about integrity and
You talk a lot about integrity and fairness. Fairness is cheap to tweet but
fairness. Fairness is cheap to tweet but expensive to implement. Where did it
expensive to implement. Where did it cost you the most?
cost you the most? It probably cost us in many ways that I
It probably cost us in many ways that I don't because I don't ever it's it's not
don't because I don't ever it's it's not a decision to me ever where it's like
a decision to me ever where it's like should we do the thing that's fair or
should we do the thing that's fair or the thing that's not fair and like let's
the thing that's not fair and like let's do a cost benefits now. It's just like
do a cost benefits now. It's just like that's not how we think and so I don't
that's not how we think and so I don't know concretely what the trade-off is.
know concretely what the trade-off is. But I don't doubt that there is like if
But I don't doubt that there is like if you if you are willing to compromise on
you if you are willing to compromise on integrity and fairness and you cut the
integrity and fairness and you cut the corners then you can grow a lot faster.
corners then you can grow a lot faster. I think that's just undeniable and you
I think that's just undeniable and you see it and like sometimes like you see
see it and like sometimes like you see you saw it with FTX I think they hypers
you saw it with FTX I think they hypers scaled and they maybe if they weren't
scaled and they maybe if they weren't caught they would have gotten away with
caught they would have gotten away with it all. So um I think for some people it
it all. So um I think for some people it is a it is a costbenefit analysis but I
is a it is a costbenefit analysis but I think for us at least it's not it's not
think for us at least it's not it's not that like the cost could be infinite in
that like the cost could be infinite in some sense and we uh we still the the
some sense and we uh we still the the principle itself is un is unalienable.
principle itself is un is unalienable. >> What do you want hyperlquid to be
>> What do you want hyperlquid to be remembered for?
remembered for? >> I don't want it to be remembered for
>> I don't want it to be remembered for anything. I just want I want it to be
anything. I just want I want it to be used uh forever. I think the best
used uh forever. I think the best I think Bitcoin will hopefully have this
I think Bitcoin will hopefully have this this fate where it becomes a store of
this fate where it becomes a store of value that is forever in the hands of
value that is forever in the hands of just like not in the hands of any one
just like not in the hands of any one power that controls it. And I think uh
power that controls it. And I think uh I'm not sure anything else in crypto is
I'm not sure anything else in crypto is going to la you know stand the test of
going to la you know stand the test of time. But um but I but I hope Hyperlid
time. But um but I but I hope Hyperlid becomes the internet for money.
becomes the internet for money. Many founders and investors are burnt
Many founders and investors are burnt out.
out. Crypto markets have been pretty
Crypto markets have been pretty disappointing disappointing for a lot of
disappointing disappointing for a lot of people.
people. Not much has come out in terms of
Not much has come out in terms of innovation from the space in many years.
innovation from the space in many years. So I figured some words from one of the
So I figured some words from one of the most admired and respected builders in
most admired and respected builders in the space could help keep some talents
the space could help keep some talents in the space and give us all some hope.
in the space and give us all some hope. Why should people stay in crypto when
Why should people stay in crypto when there is an AI brain drain?
Yeah. Well, my answer to that question is at least from hyperlquid's
is at least from hyperlquid's perspective,
perspective, we have
we have one very important job as a species
one very important job as a species and it's there's a ticking time bomb
and it's there's a ticking time bomb because AI is going to come and
because AI is going to come and basically supplant human intelligence in
basically supplant human intelligence in the near future. And I think it's it's
the near future. And I think it's it's actually not as close as people think. I
actually not as close as people think. I think AI cannot write good code yet. Uh
think AI cannot write good code yet. Uh the co the code code that is very
the co the code code that is very important should not be should not be
important should not be should not be written by AI. Maybe I'm a bit of a hold
written by AI. Maybe I'm a bit of a hold out there, but but it's going to happen.
out there, but but it's going to happen. And um before that happens, I think
And um before that happens, I think before before AI hits a escape velocity
before before AI hits a escape velocity and is self-improving and basically
and is self-improving and basically renders human intelligence obsolete, I
renders human intelligence obsolete, I think there needs to be a financial
think there needs to be a financial system to which they can plug in because
system to which they can plug in because once intelligence is largely machine
once intelligence is largely machine driven, the necessarily value transfer
driven, the necessarily value transfer will largely be machine driven as well.
will largely be machine driven as well. And there is no way that AI will plug
And there is no way that AI will plug into the existing financial system. Uh
into the existing financial system. Uh which is I'm talking about the legacy
which is I'm talking about the legacy one. Uh there it's just it's just not
one. Uh there it's just it's just not possible. Like it's not like code and
possible. Like it's not like code and value are not on the same information
value are not on the same information and value and therefore code and value
and value and therefore code and value are not on the same playing field in the
are not on the same playing field in the legacy man financial system. And so one
legacy man financial system. And so one very important job for us as humans is
very important job for us as humans is to build a financial system in which
to build a financial system in which humans have a stake because and that
humans have a stake because and that that does is programmable and accessible
that does is programmable and accessible because if not then um then humans will
because if not then um then humans will be cut out of the financial system that
be cut out of the financial system that replaces it and Hyperlid is in my
replaces it and Hyperlid is in my opinion our best shot
opinion our best shot and as an extension all builders in
and as an extension all builders in crypto you know Hyperlid is not built by
crypto you know Hyperlid is not built by one team. is it is uh you know I wanted
one team. is it is uh you know I wanted I think it really should be viewed as
I think it really should be viewed as the a a collective effort to build a
the a a collective effort to build a family of primitives companies etc that
family of primitives companies etc that interact and you know when the AI
interact and you know when the AI overlords come uh they will they will
overlords come uh they will they will adopt it because uh it's it's been built
adopt it because uh it's it's been built well and um and is autonomous and fair
well and um and is autonomous and fair and open and permissionless.
and open and permissionless. >> Thank you so much Jeff for doing this.
>> Thank you so much Jeff for doing this. Thank you for giving hope to the entire
Thank you for giving hope to the entire industry by doing it the right way and
industry by doing it the right way and setting the standards for an entire new
setting the standards for an entire new crypto generation of builders.
crypto generation of builders. A standard was truly needed. I and
A standard was truly needed. I and probably the entire crypto space can't
probably the entire crypto space can't wait to see what Hyperlid does next.
wait to see what Hyperlid does next. Well, it's still a lot to do. So, thanks
Well, it's still a lot to do. So, thanks for having me on.
As you probably know by now, I host some of the biggest name in Bitcoin and
of the biggest name in Bitcoin and crypto on my podcast. But a lot of the
crypto on my podcast. But a lot of the best stuff never makes it on air.
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