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Sean Penn | Club Random with Bill Maher

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This content is a free-flowing conversation touching upon personal reflections, current events (particularly the war in Ukraine), societal issues, and the nature of human experience, interspersed with product advertisements.

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After a night with drinks, I don't

bounce back the next day like I used to.

And I hate to waste a day. So, I have to

make a choice. I can either have a great

night or a great next day. That is until

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media.com or text the word random to 511511.

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Uh Timothy Hutton. Timothy Hutton.

George C. Scott. George C. Scott. Wow.

That's really going back. He kept me

from ever golfing.

Fooled myself that there was any I was

going to get anywhere with him. I know

that I wouldn't. I know that. You don't

know that. You don't know anything. Random.

Sean, ready? I am. Oh, I'm just pouring

a drink. Oh, thank God. Can I pour you

one? Honey, I'm home and I hope you have

my Please. I look at I did this myself.

I won't hurt you. I see. Give me a hug.

How are you? How are you? I need a Do

you have my martini ready when I walk

in? Is that so much to ask of a domestic

partner? Imagine if you and I were two

gay men living together and Well, you

know, maybe we were imaginating

everything else and that's what's

actually been happening. That has not

been happening. Yeah. I don't know.

That's not this odd feeling that I'm in

a different place than I think I am.

When you did uh milk,

how'd you feel about the kissing men?

You know the funny thing is um

I don't like not I don't like I am

disgusted by eating off of um

even if it was a relative

when when anyone but particularly men

eat off my plate I'm pretty much done

with a meal. I I can't I can't touch it.

Why would a man be eating off your

plate? Oh, you know, your dad sitting

there and he goes, "Oh, what's that? I

was going to bite of that or whatever."

Uh I I just didn't like the whole idea

of men's spit.

And so for me it was a bit of a um was

like uh like in uh you know in some law

uh like international law enforcement

narcotics law enforcement they've got

hazard pay that they pay people who go

into some of the so I sort of saw it as

like hazard pay without additional pay

or like a stunt like a big stunt but um

my um

my son was upset at the time he was

young And I guess you know things that

were said in school. Uh he was upset

that his father had kissed James Franco

and my daughter was upset that James

Franco had kissed me

and not her,

right? Wow. That's amazing. Things have

certainly changed a lot. Oh yeah. I mean

uh now you really wouldn't even be able

to play the part because you're not

actually gay. I I wouldn't be permitted.

That's right. because you have to be

what you are, you know, sort of the

antithesis of acting, though. Yeah. Um,

so you must be over the moon about the

Ukrainian attack.

Uh, I don't know when we're dropping

this. Probably very soon, but a few days

ago they did I mean it's cooler than

Mission Impossible. the drones, I mean

to to pack them into these trucks

surreptitiously get them near the

airfields to so that they could then

independently remotely

fly out of the trucks and bomb the

planes that are bombing Ukraine. I mean

that that took the Israeli beeper attack

on Hezbollah and a big chunk of the

planes that have been a threat against

every other country including our own

all these years.

He he he made a about long range nuclear

bombers. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that just

blows my mind. Well, I I had been in

Ukraine again a few well whatever it is

a month ago, let's say uh Easter, the

week of Easter,

and the war had in the last year plus

year year plus so dramatically changed

there. It was clear that it was almost

entirely drones and artillery. So where

does this put the war? I mean like we

had been kind of moving toward

honestly the Trump view which always was

kind of look Russ is going to win

anyway. What are we killing all these

people? You know it's kind of like the

old John Kerry thing. How do you ask a

man to be the last man to die for a

mistake? I've said from the very

beginning and I've felt every single day

since it that this this war is going to

the Ukraine will prevail in this war.

There's no no question in my mind. You

mean get back all their territory?

Certain. Absolutely. The territory pre

uh uh two uh uh the 22nd of February uh

24th February. 24th 22nd. You're talking

about the beginning of the war in 2022.

Yeah. Um okay. Well, that's all the

territory. Well, it's not Crimea.

Dealing with Crimea is a difficult

subject for everybody. Uh right. But um

I I think yes, there will be no

compromise on the territory. you. That's

not a common opinion. But we I I I

understand it's not a common opinion. It

wasn't a common opinion that the Vietn

Vietnamese were going to kick our ass

throughout the Vietnam War either. Um

and you were saying that then when you

were 10. Well, I I I was processing it

through my adulthood and seeing, you

know, what is it? What is that hunger

that's going to fight like that? And

so here the um you know that doesn't

mean it's not going to come without a

lot of horrible loss and destruction and

already has. And you know one of the big

parts of the story that is not discussed

enough are the 30,000 children that they

stole when they occupied those new

territories and now reeducating. Yeah.

Kidnapped children. Everybody in the

United States screams and cries about

how children are treated, you know, and

yet they somehow have let the political

tone of this blind them to

the necessity of the US being uh more

supportive. Well, you know, that's not

going to happen. That's not what I mean.

Trump's going to be there for another

They can do it without us. Three and a

half years or maybe ever. Um, so I can't

imagine in three and a half years this

war won't have resolved itself somehow.

It's going to have to do it without

America's help. I hope you're not

counting on that. I'm not counting on

it. Certainly not. I think you know one

of the things is um

you know um this could create a one

Europe in a sense and uh and and Europe

is definitely uh showing signs of really

coming up to the game. You mean

defending I mean Trump always says NATO

was too reliant on America. We paid too

much into it. Um they should be

defending themselves more. That's not

all wrong. Um well I'm not I'm not

saying that that's all wrong. What I am

saying is that that that because they're

being forced into a pinch this way

because it's not they're clearly not

just defending Ukraine on a principle.

they understand the ramifications of of

of a of a Russian victory there and the

way that that would inevitably spread

through Europe. I don't think that's

true. It would not inevitably spread

through Europe. Russia is not strong

like that. The idea that Russia is going

to I know I understand his desire. I

mean Putin would like to reconstitute

the Soviet Union for sure because

they're not strong like that that it

happens. What Putin needs to do is this

kind of an action every time he's going

down politically. And that's the way he

manipulates the the He doesn't have

enough He doesn't have enough soldiers.

He doesn't have enough money. He doesn't

have enough um material. I mean, yeah, I

guess it could be a drone war. Um but

they have drones are cheap. drones like

you you it's so it just it really puts

the lie to the new budget we have which

of course just is the one thing that

both parties could always agree on which

is shoveling more money to the Pentagon

uh which they call defense but really is

defense contractors that we to make [ __ ]

that obviously in this age of drones are

already obsolete. It's just about

providing jobs back home and making [ __ ]

that even the Pentagon sometimes says we

don't want but you're looking at the

conventional war notion. I what I'm

saying is yes, he has enough to do to be

a real threat again in this way. But in

the meantime, you look at the what's

happening in Georgia now. You look at

what has what had been happening in in

Ukraine, what he he aims to have happen

in Ukraine where whether or not they uh

before before the invasion where the the

pressure was to have a proxy to have a

puppet in in leadership and so it's not

always an army coming across this war.

Putin has already declared that this war

is against the United States. He's said

it on numerous occasions when he's when

he says, you know, it's this is about

this is that saying Ukraine was a proxy

of the US

and so and that and the war on the US

has been a cyber war, but it has affected

affected

literally lives and certainly

livelihoods. Well, there's no doubt that

he never lost his KGB bonafites. He He's

a guy who was raised in a system where

it was the Soviet Union and the the

United States was an existential enemy.

He I I get it. He never lost that. Now,

there are people who would argue that we

are the ones who made the mistake when

we didn't disband NATO when the Soviet

Union disbanded because NATO was formed

to confront the Soviet Union. or or you

know had we invited the Soviet the

former Soviet Union into NATO perhaps

then we would have had more

responsibility to uh help build their

institutions to be able to but that made

no sense. NATO was an organization

strictly formed to fight the Soviet

Union. How can you then invite? It's

like it's like the Yankees are playing

the Well, well, well, no. You you you

you have other great enemies, let's say,

right? China for one. And so building a

coalition. We all gang up for against

China. Yeah, that could work. Yeah.

Yeah. It was discussed. It was

discussed, but China wasn't a power then

when they the Soviet Union rolled up in

' 91. China wasn't some threat. I mean,

it was the country they talked about as,

"Oo, watch out. They could be the rising

power of the next century, which they

turned out to be." Well, but they they

were economically exploding and they

were and they were one of the biggest

providers along with the Russians of

weapons to the Vietnamese. We don't have

to go back in time and the entire

balance of it. But the the bottom line

was that Russia while we were dancing um

Paris Strika and and Gorbachov and and

Reagan and the walls come down, they

never got a chance to dance there. They

was they was the bread lines were longer

and and oligarchy and gangsterism took

over uh where the communist power void

Yeah. left off. And so yeah, the the

middle class also did expand once you

got rid of stateowned

industry. There were I mean Moscow I

know I know I've never been but I've

certainly know people who've been before

and after and they say Moscow is a very

alive city with a lot of a lot of people

who are doing well. I mean you go out at

night in Moscow you can have a good

time. Yeah. Moscow was a picture city.

It is still today. What does that mean?

I mean, that's the advertisement for

Russia. It's the ad you get. Listen, I

went and did a like the Paradise Ghetto.

Yeah. I for a movie thing, I did a

little bit of training at Star City,

which is about 40 km outside of Moscow.

And that's their NASA.

Um, that gives you a little inside view

of the the gas station with nuclear

weapons that they are in in so many

ways. um nothing but chip paint on

broken walls and right which is why I

say I'm not worried that Putin's going

to get his piece of Ukraine. I hope he

doesn't but if he does that then he's

going to roll into Poland. I just don't

Okay, here's what I would suggest on

that. I remember there was a great story

about somebody I I I'll leave it unnamed

because but they were a diplomat

American diplomat uh talking with a

Middle Eastern leader

and telling them why the US policy uh in

a third country uh was going to change

in the way that it was.

After they talked very sternly and

strongly about how it was going to go

and why, the Middle Eastern leader said,

"Well, you know, I do know the neighborhood."

neighborhood."

And I would say that if you go and you

talk to the people in the neighborhood,

whether it's in Muldova or Georgia or or Poland,

Poland,

uh, Romania, that that uh there is every

reason to believe that it would there'd

be a pause. It's not going to roll from

one to two to another, but this is the

trend he has. And when he has to summon

up a military assault, he always does

make that threat. Like I I don't know

why our president hasn't pre-announced a

red line,

and I don't mean a taco line. I mean a

red line on, you know, because he's talk

about nuclear weapons on his mind.

Dolls. Do you know how many dolls people

need, Sean? How many dolls? Three. Maybe

four. Maybe five. They don't need 250

dolls. He said this. The thing about

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's got bigger issues

on his mind. And pencils. Yeah. How many

pencils do you have? Yeah. Do you need

that many? I don't think so. Yeah. He's

a problem child. Okay. So, let me offer

this. And I know you know more about

Ukraine than anybody I know and probably

have done more. And you're linked to it.

I mean, uh, culturally, morally,

socially. You are all in on Ukraine.

Well, you do know that it is special to

Putin because it is the sort of the

cradle of Russian civilization. The

first capital was Kev. Mhm. Right. You

know that that they consider that. So he

sees Ukraine as

a very different place than Poland or

Romania. Well, he would say that he sees

it as a very different place. He would

say that. He would say that. And I think

that that's akin to the great great

great great grandson of King George uh

still angsting about the Declaration of

Independence. The the the bottom line is

Ukraine is a separate sovereign country

as we are. I I agree with that, but it's

a lot but that's a bad analogy because

that's a long way back. This is he sees

war Ukraine much more cynically than

that. I think that this is when he's got

troubles at home. Listen, there's 25

Russas, right? you've got between the

Muslim population, the various breakoffs

of what what it is to be Russia. You

know, you just said it. It's sort of

self-contradictory. You said, you know,

the I think it was McCain who first

called Russia a gas station with nuclear

weapons. Okay. Well, gas stations don't

take over the world. Again, I don't put

anything past this guy. He push he

pushes people out of [ __ ] windows.

And by the way, your your boyfriend

Oliver Stone was here once. Well, I love

the movie you made. I love I love you,

sir. Listen, I I Oliver is a fascinating

person. I I think he's, you know, left

the farm a long time. He certainly has

on the subject of Putin because no

matter how many times I, you know, I was

just mocking him unmercifully in a

charming way, of course. Um, but he

just, you know, he would just, oh, Bill,

you don't really believe that propaganda

about Putin being a bad guy. And like

what is it that that makes a person's

mind? I mean look, we all have places

where we disagree with each other

vehemently and we're like how can this

person who's such a great person and we

love him in so many ways. How can how

can they believe this thing? I think

iconoclasm is a drug for him.

That's a great quote. Yeah.

Yeah.

So but but legit the gas station

reference. When I say that, I'm talking

about this is what most Russians

experience is is basically a gas station

with with now for him to

have a military. Um, in other words,

bodies he's ready to have killed, which

is so much of what they've been doing.

Uh, and and and and by the way, there's

there's two genocides being attempted.

One on the Ukrainians and the other is

on his undesirabs. So what's at the

front lines is you're going to find the

bodies of homosexuals, uh prisoners that

created crimes that uh conflict with the

the crimes that Putin uh would otherwise

champion. Uh these are the this is and

and and you know just scraping the

barrel of those people. So he's purging

his country of uh the things that um he

doesn't like. You're saying he's killing

homosexuals? Yeah.

I hadn't read it, but I don't doubt it.

Yeah. Killing them. prioritizing them

for to be in the meat grinder on the

front line. Oh, by sending them to

Ukraine, correct? Oh, yeah. That sounds

like something he'd do. Yeah. Yeah. And

he's I mean one of his big gripes about

the West um is wokeness which which by

the way I could show you a quote from

him about that and I could show you a

quote from Mcronone

from France not exactly the same kind of

country saying almost the same thing

which is what we don't want your

American wokeness here yeah well that's

fine we don't want your Russian hatred

here I understand I'm not defending Um,

I'm just saying, isn't that interesting

that both France, the most sophisticated

place, I don't want our American

wokeness here either. Exactly. I'm just

saying like it's something that for the

people who are like woke and are mad at

this conversation, just just think about

that that that both France and Russia

came to the same conclusion about this.

Now, of course, they did it for somewhat

different reasons. And by the way, sorry

France, but you could use a little

wokeness. I mean, they just got around

to putting

who's the fat ass Gerard de Bardeux. Oh,

yeah. Yeah. Away for stuff that you

know, you know, not to like, hey,

America, we're the greatest, but stuff

that we were putting people away. I

mean, he's the Harvey Weinstein or the

Cosby or whatever. They're like a

decade. been built. It's been building

pretty intensely over the last couple of

years in France. Yeah. But they are like

a decade behind us on on that. Well, not

a I wouldn't say a full decade, but yes.

Yeah. Close. They're they're they're

right there now. I mean, we kind of take

our victories where we can, John. Yeah.

I mean, you know, America,

um, I always think we're going to come

out on top at the end, but I don't know.

Let's face it, after a night with

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My father when I remember

one time having a talk with him about

the blacklist period.

Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean in depth and

walking down a beach. And was he

blacklisted? Yeah. 5 years he was. Yeah.

So he for the country he flew 37 low

altitude bombing missions at night. Shot

down twice. Came back with a chest full

uh flying out of London. Germany. To

Germany. Over Germany. Yeah. Um and then

couldn't work in the country he fought

for. Um Yeah. And I was always admired

in him. something that I I still can't

imagine that I would have been able to

process this way. Um he said, you know,

it's a growing pain of a of a great

country. What is the blacklist? It was

is growing pains. Wow. There was never a

bitterness. That's charitable. Yeah. But

it makes me, you know, encouraged to

think that, you know, we can I don't not

saying we will. we can get ourselves out

of this and into something better than

we've had before. And you know, as part

of the physics of this stuff, I don't

like it, you don't like it. We see

through the people that are sort of

fundamentalist on this stuff and

hypocritically so in so many provable

ways with this woke stuff.

But we are so self-destructive as

species in some ways that to get to

constructive, we have to recognize

there's going to be some destructive and

and it sort of does find its own balance

at a certain point. Um I some I' I've

thought lately sometimes that you know I

mean I I' I've been certainly a big

mouth and often too strident of one. Um

you are a sensational uh mouth on most

subjects and and and important. I won't

spit in your food. But I also sometimes

think lately, you know, can why don't we

just shut up and stay out of this way

because these guys have plenty of rope

to hang themselves with. Don't remind

the base that we're here. We don't have

anything to do with your fight.

Uh yeah, I wonder sometimes if sometimes

there should be a pause and do you think

being our age makes it easier for us to

not freak out because I feel like the kids

kids

are more freaked out. Now that may just

be because that generation is just, you

know, angsty about everything. Well, the

ones who are engaged are right and and

and that I can only imagine is extremely

hard on particularly younger. My kids

are in their 30s and where's their head

on like where the country is and are

they like are they despondent?

Um or are what I'm saying is like we

remember Nixon. No, he wasn't. He

certainly didn't go where Trump went,

but we thought he was like the end of

the world, and he turned out he wasn't.

Is that what going to be the case with

Trump? He's already been the end of

hundreds of thousands of worlds,

people. I'm talking about the USA ID.

Yeah. Yeah. That that's negligent

homicide in in in a sober world. That's

negligent homicide. But since it's not

sober, I'll have another sip. Yeah.

Uh yeah, but I mean even bigger picture

than that just um well the fundamental

essence of America being the peaceful

transfer of power which is you know

always number one peaceful transfer of

power and at what temperature is the

globe running when he hands it over?

Yeah. I mean, look, I'm certainly a

person who believes as much as you do or

any person who can read

scientific literature even for the

layman that we are, you know, doing

horrible things environmentally and it's

obviously going to get us at at at some

point. I don't know that one side has

really done a lot more than the other. I

mean, you can read some very depressing

stats like, you know, coal use with

after all these years and all this money

spent on clean energy and it's like

almost the exact percentage as it was I

don't know what whatever the stat 1990

or something. You're a pro-uclear power

guy. Yes, me too. I'd like to build one

right here. Yeah, you can use my yard.

France makes money on theirs. Totally.

Yeah. Now, I always say nuclear energy

is a lot like marriage. When it goes

bad, it really goes bad. Not that I have

to tell you, but marriage is going bad.

I'm sorry, but but it is that kind of

thing like um you just have to make sure

you marry the right person or you

make the plant safe because when it

melts down, it's so destructive. And

that's what people are afraid of.

Nuclear power for three reasons. Three

Mile Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima. Those

three words and those are three powerful words.

words.

Yes. Well, they're they're powerful in

first of all, we know if we're just

talking about the climate, the the

result at the end of all this stuff, the

the

we have to assume that we are in some denial.

denial.

We absorb the information. Let's say we

believe in this school of thought that's

coming from the scientific community.

Yes, the world's heating up. this is

those same scientists are saying, you

know, this is like guys, this is urgent.

We don't really want to process that.

That's part of it. It's not just that

they're not communicating it in ways

that are successful. I would agree with

that. And and that's the same. So, for

example, you know, the normalization of

these 30,000 children that have been

kidnapped by the Russians. Um,

we we're finding ways for that not to be

what it what what we know it is to us,

right? These are just defense mechanisms.

mechanisms.

And finally trying to be a little braver

about this stuff and and get a clear

clear thought. It does seem to me that

the the science that I've come to trust,

not claiming any kind of expertise, but

I pay attention. I care. And I don't

think I'm alarmist.

Um has me extremely worried. We were

talking about like my kids. So they're,

you know, they would have come up during

the time of MySpace and all of this. The

social media was there. I think uh

having kids makes this a very different

idea because like I feel like I've had

my fun with the earth. I have the same

worries that you do. But I'm like, okay,

I'm 70. Like probably it'll be around

for about the number of years. I will

also be around. But if I had a kid 30,

yes, I would I would be much more in

that headsp space because now you got to

project 50 years. Yeah. But be don't get

too comfortable because with AI, you

might be finding the fountain of youth

and you're going to live a long, long

time in a nuclear holocaust.

Did you see what AI has been up to

lately? Which part of it? Tell me.

Robots that are refusing to shut

themselves off. Mhm. I mean, this has

gone from only two years ago whenever

when I first saw what chat GPT was that

people had. But that one was programmed

by Elon Musk.

Well, could have been to like the robots

physically fighting back. You saw that

video, right? I've seen some of that.

Okay. Uh we had the story last week also

of a robot who blackmailed its user

because it didn't like something it was

doing. I mean, I've seen I don't have it

because I won't put it in my phone

because they don't know everything about

me. It's bad enough the way the world is

now. But I've seen people send me things

like there were conversations with the

thing about something and it's a it's a

[ __ ] prickly little [ __ ] It's not

like it's Mr. Spock. It's not, you know,

it it gets mad. It falls in love. It hallucinates.

hallucinates.

It's worse than a robot. A robot's

supposed to be smart and logical and not

[ __ ] things up like a human. This isn't

like that. They need to like [ __ ]

shut it down and and go back to the

drawing board and make one that isn't

based on the worst characteristics of

humans. Of course, they got it from the

internet. What is the internet? A bunch

of [ __ ] [ __ ] that they built this

thing about around and that's why it's

acting like this. Mhm. Yeah.

They may argue, you know, they're not

that they're not sentient beings, but it

doesn't matter. They behave like them.

Listen to I heard the scariest thing

today, and I'm sure it's true because

the person who said it to me would be

fired if it was a lie.

Um, North Korea,

you know what goes on in their phones

now? They take a it automatically takes

a picture of you every 5 minutes and

sends it to the the great every five

minutes to the home office. Can you

imagine living under that sort of

damically? I I was I was there this last

year. I mean, not there in Korea, but at

the closest point and I was sitting on a

little rock wall. You didn't swim over,

Sean. That would be so You It's

swimmable. It's It's short. And why

didn't you do it? That's That's No,

please. You need a capper on the resume.

Swimming into North Korea. That is so You

You

doesn't That doesn't uh That doesn't get

me tickled. That one really couldn't

have been worse than the El Chapo thing

in the trunk and come on man. I could

see this farmer across the water in

North Korea. Yeah. And you just get

transfixed because it's

I mean in some way it's just so such a

sort of sad state of human the saddest

restriction. the saddest and

there's that the Seisphus myth you know

that what he did is just made the rock

his whole world and it was in that that

he was able to you know carry out his punishment

punishment

pushing the rock up the hill that's in

the myth yeah that that that no this is

no this was the the the kamu I think it

was someone's interpreted to yeah I mean

The myth is just, you know, if people

don't remember their mythology, he's I

forget what he did to piss off the gods,

but his punishment was to roll this rock

up the hill, but it never gets there and

it goes back and he's just always

rolling a rock up the hill. It reminds

me a little bit of those guys who

voluntarily maybe the most moving

documentary I've ever seen was that one

the rescue about the those hobby divers

cave divers who went and got the kids in

Thailand. Chile, wasn't it? It's like

cold. No, the country wasn't in Chile.

No, in Thailand. Chile. I think you

might be talking about one of the mines

or something. Oh, that was the cave

dudes. Yeah. What's this one? These guys

are cave divers. Oh, and so so they were

under water. There were I think 14 kids,

something like that, that would were on

a hike up in this cave and the uh

monsoon rains came early. Oh, hate that.

They even the American SEAL team, but

the SEAL team is from Thailand. Nobody

trains in what these guys do because

there's no real cost benefit on it. So,

you have these sort of middle-aged guys

guys

who meet up. There may be 10 of them in

the world that do it on this level.

And they do these dives in. See, you

know, you got a mile of stone above you.

You got this much space. It's black. You

can't see anything. Cold water. And

that's what they like exploring. They're

down under the earth doing that. So,

they came in and rescued those kids in

the most extraordinary way. Uh, Ron

Howard, I believe, made a feature about

it, but I certainly for in order of

things to watch the that first. Why was

I thinking that though? I don't know.

But like, why don't you make movies like

that? Why don't you mean you have so

many experiences and like, you know,

stories about stuff that's dramatic,

you know? I

almost never took a camera anywhere with

me until of course um I made this

documentary in Ukraine. Yes. But um my

plugs I forget. I'm so sorry. I blame I

blame the pot. It's been on YouTube for

a long time now. Yes. Um but tell them

the title. It's called Superpower.

Superpower. Yeah. And um and it was a a

Paramount Plus thing here. And um

uh they were um Susan Zaransky was

really helpful with that because she

helped to get it so that we all wanted

it to be more um accessible and so they

they were willing to put it on YouTube

in the United States. But so my first

trip to Iraq during the war was in 2023

and I took a camera because I was Iraq.

You mean Ukraine? No, Iraq. Now I'm

talking about Iraq. I'm because you say

about you should make documentaries like

this. answering that I got What year are

you in Iraq? This is 200 uh three.

Three. Okay. The beginning of the war.

Yeah. And um I got the greatest

pictures. I brought this Nikon with a

lens like this. I mean I got the

greatest pictures

and I came home and none of them

develop. I'm terrible with this texture.

and and that was the only other time

because I sort of like dark sunglasses.

I don't have the same situational

awareness when I'm doing that. And if

I'm looking for a picture versus just

being there, then I miss it. I miss

everything. So, I'm usually I I just

Yeah, I'm more interested in just I'm

just I'm making like a movie, you know,

like with a script. It's not completely

not like a not a documentary like you

know sit in a room with writers and and

be like you tell them the experiences

and then they weave it into a story. I

mean it happen I mean didn't you I don't

know if your girl friend is still

Ukrainian. No mulovven. Muldovven. Were

you formerly with someone from Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. You're doing well in the

area. I like bored. So like you've

already got a a love interest. I mean,

you've got drama, you've got war. War is

always good for, you know, like, why not

make a movie out of it? Like a movie

movie, you know? I mean, there's plenty

of movies like that that are, you know,

historically based. Um, I I mean, I can

steal from you, you know, a lot of

things that I I witnessed or took part

in, you know, in in any kind of a movie

in little ways and things. I mean,

you're not talking about making a movie

about me. I'm talking about you like

like getting in a room with people,

telling them your experiences, working

on the script with them, and then

directing. You've been Why don't you

direct anymore? Why don't you direct

this? Well, I am. I've just written uh

like I said, you're directing now. Yeah,

I've just written something that I'm

going to direct uh coming up and and and

it and it has a lot of uh

um currency in terms of what it's about.

We're talking what's it about?

Well, it it's it's

you know, I'll tell you offline. I don't

because I don't want to get ahead of

anything, but I'll I'll tell you offline.

offline.

Oh, I see. Offline.

Okay. Well,

you just reminded me. I see. I I

designed this so well that I forget

myself that I'm online again. I blame

the pot, but uh that's right. We're

online. So, like the people the people

want to know about you, Sean, not just

the politics. You're a beloved American

icon, movie star. They want to know how

you are you happy. You can't generalize

the people without the people. That

includes people who are either

disinterested or loathing. Um as many

people hate you as many people hate me.

Yeah. But you know to your credit I mean

you would you're not afraid to go

anywhere. I mean like you like you know

where you should go CPAC.

I would I would if I had a reason to go

uh you know the I was making say a

documentary if they invited you. Well I

would I think that was the first

question I would ask is why am I why am

I being invited? Um yeah that's

reasonable. Um, you know, if people

don't know, CPAC is the uh every year

the big big uh giant uh it's conservative

conservative

right rightwing very rightwing

convention they have like you know

everybody who speaks there Trump has

spoken there of course he's usually the

the headliner but you know it's

Marjgerie Taylor Green it's it's Cash

Patel it's Dan Bonino it's a it's a

veritable woodstock of the mentally impaired

impaired

every year and uh they go through the

social conservative agenda and then

break down into smaller groups for gay

sex as I recall. But if like somebody

like I would just love to see you for

and you know you could make a speech

about some things that they would cheer

because you're not doctrinire

and there are people Lindsey Graham is

the leader I think of that wing of the

Republican party that definitely wants

to sanction Russia and wants to go back

to no we're the Republicans we hate

Russia remember

that wing exists they're just cowed

they're just afraid because Trump will

kill them. Yeah. And and it's but it is

hard to understand

how so many of them are so cowardly.

Yeah. That there that there's no sense.

I I I almost wonder sometimes if they

aren't kind of like rapturists who just

really feel that the the world's going

to end and they're going to Well, they

are and there won't be a legacy. Well,

yeah. Well, a lot of them are super

duper Christians. We know that. And

that's exactly what Christians believe

that they will be raptured. Yeah. That's

a part of it. Yeah. And so if if they

see their kids are going to go up in

flames anyway, then what difference does

their reputation

now? You don't go up in flames when

you're raptured to heaven. Yeah. Yeah.

The world up in flames and you go Yeah.

The special ones get to go to Yeah. Right.

Right.

Well, don't don't say it like that.

People will think we're skeptical of it.

Well, I mean, you know, they they they

put certain scientists forward to debunk

the climate change. I I I'd like them

to, you know, put some scientists

forward on heaven and just give me a

shred of evidence.

What were you were you were you did your

family uh when you were a kid make you

do anything religious? My parents, my so

my grandmother said to my mother and

father when they married because my

father was Jewish and my mother Catholic

and she said all all them and water

don't mix and uh I and they and then you

know they were together very happily for

41 years until my father passed. Um you

know what but they my parents were

together 41 years and my parents also

are Jewish and Catholic just in reverse.

Oh really? 41 years exactly.

So stuck with it back then. I mean we as

kids we weren't um the my parents

decided first of all my father was

agnostic atheist somewhere in in in

there and he told you that? Yeah he told

his parents that I mean my but I mean

like when when the kids asked questions

what did you say did he he didn't

sugarcoat it? and his grandfather, both

grandfathers were rabbis um on on you

know he was an only child and his

parents were very tolerant of his um

exploring other ways of thinking and I

just always felt like look you know if

you say there's a god it's a punch line

you say there's not a god it's a punch

line I'm okay with the mystery I I

loving this place I love life and eat it

up and you know it's a black abyss or

it's you know I' I'd rather it not be,

you know, some of the worst things that

one can imagine. I'd prefer that not be

the case. But, uh, but all the more

reason to have a good time. Now, how's

Haiti doing, by the way? Oh, boy.

Speaking of places that are trouble.

It's It is I I I I You spent so much

time. I still believe these Haitian

people are going to pull themselves out

of it. Did you see you know who's going

over there to kick ass and take names?

No, Eric Prince. Oh, yes, I did. What is

it? What is it? Blackwater. Well,

formerly Blackwater. Yeah, Blackwater

always sounded to me like a Credence,

Clear Water or Black. Well, that's what

I mean. They're trying to get contracts

and and and and I look, whatever the

Haitians decide they want to do, they do

in some way. What do you think of that?

Black, Blackwater was in Iraq, got in

trouble for some [ __ ] that they did. Am

I wrong? No, you're not wrong. Right.

Blackwater, which is we're talking about

private mercenaries, which itself is an

interesting concept that we I don't

think people realize in Iraq and

Afghanistan especially, we outsourced.

Oh, yeah. A lot of [ __ ] Huge part of

the Pentagon budget was on private

contractors. Private contractors. And

sometimes they got I remember they

strung one up on the bridge in Fallujah.

Yeah. A couple of them. And I think that

prompted the battle for Fallujah. Yeah.

But that was a private contractor. That

wasn't a military guy. Yeah. And there

and a lot of a lot of private

contractors were involved in Abugra also

in the interrogations. Absolutely.

Because the CIA didn't want to have

their hands dirty. But I would I

wouldn't use the term mercenary. Well,

it depends on how one, but there are

within the ranks of any of these

organizations, you know, people that

were extraordinary soldiers and American

soldiers sometime now in particular and

uh because Blackwater is principally

American, but um

but but I've seen it with um you know,

South African groups and and and South

American groups also.

Um, you know, there are Colombians,

Colombian contractors working on in the

fight with on behalf of Ukraine. There

people are from all over and God knows

Vagner is all over Africa now. Really?

Still. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Even after the

plane thing, they just knew. Oh, yeah.

He's gone. But it it exists in full.

Well, they used to call it the Foreign Legion.

Legion.

Isn't that the same idea? Yeah. Well,

the French had the the the Foreign

Legion and then the National

want to shoot some people. Those were

come join us. Those were government

organizations. So these are now fully,

you know, private companies as is

running our prison system. They are

private companies with with tentacles

very deep into the you think they're all

military. They are among those who are

hired. For example, in during who's in

Blackwater? Oh, I was I slept on the

floor next to 40 Blackwater guys in

during Katrina because somebody from the

tobacco industry, someone who was

actually a lawyer fighting the tobacco

industry had contracted Blackwater to

come in and protect his neighborhood and

his office that he thought tobacco was

going to break into. So I, in fact,

Chris Kyle was on that floor. Wow. And

um you know, like I say, you have these

guys, they've they've they've done their

service. They have many of them with

very high skill sets and now you're

getting offered $100,000 a year with no

taxes. Uh which beats anything anybody

in the military was making. Right.

Right. So I I there's there and there is

an application for some of this stuff

sometimes. I think I might have been one

of the first people writing about them

uh was a dine corp in in Iraq because

this whole idea of this term contractors

and I I asked one of them what they

build and I and he said elections. Yeah.

Or whatever the client is is asking now

are there bad actors in that? I can't

speak for what Eric Prince is. He he's

you know I know he's a former SEAL

himself. Um I I I don't really know

enough about Blackwater. I I can't

either, but uh I think his sister is

Betsy Devos. Yes, that's right.

Education former Secretary of Education.

This is, you know, I this is what I hate

about America. Like the all the people

on the on the left are like, "Oh my god,

you just said two names that are like on

the list of people we hate forever."

Betsy and like I don't know these

people. Maybe they are. I'm sure I don't

agree with them on a lot of things, but

I don't know. And I don't [ __ ] hate

anybody because you say I'm supposed to

hate them. I'd like to talk to Betsy

Dvas. I have a lot of problems with the

education department and education in

general in this stupid [ __ ] country.

And Prince, you know, if you say he's a

Navy Seal, well, he probably did a lot

more for this country than a lot of

people have ever done, including me. I

don't know. Is he also a hard

right-winger? I'm sure he is. I think

that's who they are. I think he's an

entrepreneur from what I can tell. He

comes from money himself. Really? Yeah.

In fact, that was something he was, as I

understand it, maybe a little shy about

uh the guys knowing um and when he was

going to Well, maybe that speaks better

for him because it says, you know, he

could be snorting coke off some hooker's

ass in Monte Carlo, but he's instead

shooting an Iraqi kid in the head. No,

but I think that's we got to be careful

like with the mercenary thing that some

of these token Monte Carlo guys are

okay. I agree.

No, I mean, but it is interesting that

they're going into Haiti because I mean,

let's be honest. I'm sure the Haitians

are the most lovely people in the world,

but they for whatever reason cannot get

their [ __ ] together about having a

stable country where the gangs don't

rule and sending in Eric Prince and his

Blackwater credence

what they're like tribute band to [ __ ]

with them might be what just what the

doctor ordered. Is that wrong? It it

depends on the client and how much voice

the client has and if the and the client

ought to be the sovereign government um

or or or rather in that case because you

don't have a trusted government by the

but to have some consensus from civil

society from farming co-ops from people

across Haiti um a kind of convention to

come up with what the rules of

engagement would be because these are principally

principally

you know, special operators who

there's no question but that they can

get it done the job done and with with a

very few people. Well, there's no

question that they could rid Haiti of

gangs. There's no question about that.

But why? Because that seems like a very

hard job. No, look at El Salvador. Look

what he did with He's got an army of

40,000. Well, he did it, not Blackwater.

No, I understand. Hades Haiti is not

saying Haiti doesn't have a But you're

saying as long as you as long as you

suspend basic democratic norms, which is

what you kind of have to do. That's what

they did. That's why there's got to be

some kind of consensus among Haitians

about how it's going to be achieved.

Also, you're going to these

neighborhoods are packed. It's, you

know, it's Gaza, right? And how what's

the how long a period of time? But I do

think that there are versions of a kind

of a surgical shock and awe if the

Haitians wanted it to happen that the

that the gangs would back down. And

there's a history of that. I almost

forgot to remind you about the other

people backing down, which is the

Russians in Afghanistan. They did run

away from Yeah, they did. And that could

that that could happen in Ukraine, too.

They could decide that this is bleeding

us too much. too much and we and you

know yeah he's just got to find a face

saving out right now that absolutely

could be the end of this which I I would

not have guessed even two weeks ago.

Yeah. Um and man I know well they've got

a lot more sting coming from what I understand

understand

there's there's um a lot of interesting

really innovative uh war gaming going

on. Oh really? More Mission Impossible

stuff. Yeah, I think this is uh we're

gonna we're gonna witness u something

that's going to um let's say that all

the experts are going to have to be

replaced with experts. Have you seen

Mission Impossible? I haven't seen the

new Yeah. No, but you want to? Yeah, I

do. Me, too. He produces an excellent

picture. I love that you said that.

Yeah, exactly. We're not snobs. Oh, no.

We're Tom Cruz and Mission or or

Maverick. I I'm all in. Yeah. Or

anything. He's a very good actor. He's a

very professional. Yes, he's he's

underrated as an actor. Even though he's

too handsome for being Well, it's not

that he's too handsome. It's that he

wants to do popcorn movies and he does a

lot he does a lot of that, but he does

it better than anybody else does. He

does. Exactly. And the fact that he can

be doing it in his 60s is so

inspirational to us in our Weird thing

because I I knew Tom well when we were

young. We did our first movie of note

together. Taps. What is it? Taps. Taps.

And we were roommates. Who else was in

that? And um who else was in? I said uh

Timothy Hutton. Timothy Hutton. George

C. Scott. George C. Scott. Wow. That's

really going back. He kept me from ever

golfing. Cuz he had a line in the movie.

He says, "I don't want to die knocking

the [ __ ] out of a little white ball with

an alligator on my tit." And he was so

compelling the way he said. I always

thought if I golf, George C's going to

see me. I always hated golf, too.

It was just like I don't know. I I

always felt like it was giving up. Like

if I play if I started to play golf, it

was a way of saying I give up. I had

Barry Diller on my show Friday night and

like he has a memoir and it's great and

I read Strand's memoir and I read Woody

Allen's memoir. both awesome. But all I

could think of was I am not going to

write a memoir ever because when you

write the memoir, you're psychologically

saying it's over. Yeah. I'm not going to

write part two from 80 to 160.

You know, part one is the interesting part.

part.

So tell me you're with me on that. Oh

yeah. Don't write a memoir because

there's always it it always has to be

about tomorrow, right? Well, you know,

remember when I wrote that book, um the

um that came because I was getting

offers to write a memoir and I

considered them and you know, I give you

pretty good upfront money. Thought I'll

get some of this stuff on the on the

record sort of archive for my kids as it

were. And um then I was sitting in Haiti

and I was there was some books laying

around at this like little hotel and one

of them was by someone I knew. Uh, and

it was a memoir and I started reading it

and I realized that um, I mean maybe if

you're 85 or something like that, you

just give up the whole goat, you really

willing to, you know, drop all the [ __ ]

[ __ ]

maybe. But when people are creating a

narrative to make themsel look however

they want to look, which includes, you

know, romantically putting in some self

flagagillation and things like that, but

doing it just such a way to set up the

next heroic deed. Um, it just I I

thought I don't want to catch myself

ever. Well, okay, but put put some meat

on the bones of self flagagill. I know

what what are you talking you know,

they'll get they'll immunize themselves

against that. This is just self-

glorification if they, you know, say say

they were weak in this way. But it

didn't really matter because look what I

did, you know. And I You're saying they

humble brag. It's Yeah. It's a it's a

trap of the Yeah. Yeah. But the Irish

are good. Like the um the McCort book um

you know, the the Irish can do it.

Bono's book. Um and he he beats himself

up pretty um for real in it and then all

but he's willing to but then says so

what because at the end it doesn't

matter what I say it matters you know

what I do and you look at it and you'll

it'll be what it is. I you know I love I

love him. I I was at the polo lounge

once with Michael Moore and he was at

another table and I didn't even know he

was there and uh the waiter came over

and gave us this like he had done a

drawing of us and wrote on it, you know,

like two great storytellers or something

and it's one of the I treasure it, you

know. I I said I'd give it to Mike and

never did.

Incredibly generous. Um, well, he gives

his number, but he's what I always loved

about him was that he wasn't afraid to

be a clown. Like, I remember him saying,

um, when ISIS was on the rise, Mhm. you

know, I know people like me who

mentioned things like a caliphate were

crazy and then they actually tried to

have a caliphate. Okay. H there's that.

But, uh, and he said, you know, we

should send comedian over there.

Of course, you know, I said, "Well,

let's send rock stars first." Why? Why

do I right away with the comedians? Why

do we always have to open for you? You

go see how it goes with ISIS cuz I think

they're going to love you. Um, and you

know, he said that in front of Congress

at his testimony and he and he and they

pressed him on. He said, "I'm not

kidding." You know, the the And uh yeah,

and and I kind of felt like he knew as

he was saying it, it was stupid.

But he's like, "I'm a musician. I can

get away with stupid. I just can." And

I'm going to make a bigger point. And he

must have known that Charlie Chaplain

made a movie about Hitler where he

played Hitler, the great dictator,

right? 1940, which one of the greatest

speeches ever made by a I'm certainly by

a fictional politician. Probably one of

the great speeches ever made by a

politician. I know what you're talking

about. If people don't remember the

movie, because it's 1940,

Hitler was on the rise, but the war

hadn't brought us in yet. It was

starting in Europe. I I mean, it was

came out in 1940, so the the war started

in September of 39. Maybe when they shot

this movie. That'd be interesting

question. Was World War II started?

Yeah. I don't know. Oh, yeah. In fact,

because Hitler was certainly famous

enough to be and and you know that the

original bone that Charlie Chaplan had

to pick with Hitler, they were born the

same year.

Hitler stole his mustache. Yeah. Yep.

And ruined it for the rest of us because

he was a fan. Is that true? Yeah. He was

a fan of Chaplan and then Chaplain

what a beautiful what an incredible Now

I know what Okay, so this is interesting

you mentioned that because you and I

don't have exactly the same politics. Um

people should watch this speech. It is

amazing. But anyway, most of the movie

Chaplan is playing actually now AI the

robot men all of what he I mean he it's

it's as if well it's it's a it's a it's a socialist cry okay I no I don't

a socialist cry okay I no I don't remember it it's a humanist cry it's not

remember it it's a humanist cry it's not a socialist cry you know what I haven't

a socialist cry you know what I haven't seen it in years what let me tell people

seen it in years what let me tell people what it is most of the movie he plays

what it is most of the movie he plays Hitler basically I mean it's funny this

Hitler basically I mean it's funny this dictator the great scene where he's like

dictator the great scene where he's like lying on his back and He's kicking a

lying on his back and He's kicking a ball, which is the globe of the world,

ball, which is the globe of the world, but it's a balloon up in the air. And I

but it's a balloon up in the air. And I mean, he's that much in charge, but he

mean, he's that much in charge, but he also plays this other part where he's

also plays this other part where he's the guy who makes the speech at the end.

the guy who makes the speech at the end. And it's it's like a 10-minute payon to

And it's it's like a 10-minute payon to like the world that could be if we were

like the world that could be if we were all if the workers would unite and all

all if the workers would unite and all that kind of stuff. Now, again, I

that kind of stuff. Now, again, I haven't seen it in years. My memory of

haven't seen it in years. My memory of it is that it was a little too socialist

it is that it was a little too socialist for my taste, but that it it was Say it

for my taste, but that it it was Say it again and text me. I will. I absolutely

again and text me. I will. I absolutely will. But everybody should see that. And

will. But everybody should see that. And you should see it just purely humanist

you should see it just purely humanist and so preient. I mean, maybe it is.

and so preient. I mean, maybe it is. It's so right now. Maybe that is exactly

It's so right now. Maybe that is exactly what it is. But um it's it's certainly

what it is. But um it's it's certainly ideal.

It's certainly idealistic though, right? I mean, it's utopian. Yes. but not sort

I mean, it's utopian. Yes. but not sort of not unlike Carl Sean's Pale Blue Dot

of not unlike Carl Sean's Pale Blue Dot where

where if if only you know and I agree with you

if if only you know and I agree with you there in the sense that you know um Jose

there in the sense that you know um Jose Pepe Muika the president former

Pepe Muika the president former president of Uruguay who was the most

president of Uruguay who was the most compelling

compelling head of state the most incredible man um

head of state the most incredible man um Uruguay never heard of this dude Um

Uruguay never heard of this dude Um there's a thing called um when so he

there's a thing called um when so he died a few weeks ago but he was I I got

died a few weeks ago but he was I I got to know him through working on behalf of

to know him through working on behalf of Haiti in partnership with you have every

Haiti in partnership with you have every South American leader on speed dial. I

South American leader on speed dial. I know you do. But what he what he said I

know you do. But what he what he said I don't know why you doing one of the

don't know why you doing one of the things he says in this thing this this

things he says in this thing this this this human project is a is portraits of

this human project is a is portraits of different people from different walks of

different people from different walks of life in his case a former head of state

life in his case a former head of state or at president at the time and he is

or at president at the time and he is interviewed for about 20 minutes and um

interviewed for about 20 minutes and um these are great it's a great uh show the

these are great it's a great uh show the human project and muika is talking at

human project and muika is talking at one point about this idea that we you

one point about this idea that we you know we have it drumed into us worldwide

know we have it drumed into us worldwide that if we don't um study history, it

that if we don't um study history, it it's bound to repeat itself. And he

it's bound to repeat itself. And he doesn't believe that because and and he

doesn't believe that because and and he really put the our words to something

really put the our words to something that I've always felt. He he says that

that I've always felt. He he says that uh

uh he says in the first person, I don't

he says in the first person, I don't idealize human beings like this.

idealize human beings like this. We are the we are we we will stub our

We are the we are we we will stub our toe on the same pebble 30 times. We will

toe on the same pebble 30 times. We will we only ultimately learn anything from

we only ultimately learn anything from our own experience

our own experience and we are bound to repeat it and then

and we are bound to repeat it and then we can process what we repeated by

we can process what we repeated by looking back. That's the value of

looking back. That's the value of history and that and I think that that's

history and that and I think that that's true and and so

true and and so we we will repeat it and this is what's

we we will repeat it and this is what's sort of frightening and and what that

sort of frightening and and what that denial thing in us you know even friends

denial thing in us you know even friends of ours um

of ours um there were there's moments I've had like

there were there's moments I've had like this where

this where you know you just feel that this moment

you know you just feel that this moment is the you

is the you breathing, screaming that this is the

breathing, screaming that this is the the

the moment. Other times you you say it's

moment. Other times you you say it's going to heal, it's going to be okay.

going to heal, it's going to be okay. And somewhere in between is we don't

And somewhere in between is we don't know, but we we have to be proactive

know, but we we have to be proactive about it, right? Whether it's climate or

about it, right? Whether it's climate or it's it's and Muika

it's it's and Muika really talks about it with such great

really talks about it with such great articulation. It's um he was a like a

articulation. It's um he was a like a like a a poet of political thought.

like a a poet of political thought. And so is is it is it too socialist the

And so is is it is it too socialist the the Charlie Chaplan speech or is it at

the Charlie Chaplan speech or is it at the heart of something

the heart of something that is an ideal that we should not

that is an ideal that we should not necessarily associate ourselves with

necessarily associate ourselves with other than to admire and work towards

other than to admire and work towards it. Not one that we have. Yeah. and and

it. Not one that we have. Yeah. and and and yes, so if you let the practical get

and yes, so if you let the practical get involved in a lot of things that people

involved in a lot of things that people would call socialist and things like

would call socialist and things like that, I am practical. I am practical

that, I am practical. I am practical enough to know that I believe we are not

enough to know that I believe we are not past the moment where we need to

past the moment where we need to manufacture weapons. Well, that's not

manufacture weapons. Well, that's not idealistic. You're right. Right. And and

idealistic. You're right. Right. And and we need militaries and we need strong

we need militaries and we need strong militaries.

militaries. That's not idealistic. No, that's

That's not idealistic. No, that's practical. That's good. But should we

practical. That's good. But should we not do our little bit each generation to

not do our little bit each generation to move towards the possibility of you know

move towards the possibility of you know one day evolving to the point where we

one day evolving to the point where we can embrace I I'm not going to argue

can embrace I I'm not going to argue with you about that at all. What I am

with you about that at all. What I am going to ask you about though is I mean

going to ask you about though is I mean Uruguay I feel like that one slipped off

Uruguay I feel like that one slipped off my radar and I feel like among most

my radar and I feel like among most people you're going to talk to I do have

people you're going to talk to I do have a knowledge of what's going on around

a knowledge of what's going on around the world but that one Uruguay

the world but that one Uruguay I got to say they need a better

I got to say they need a better publicist. They have a low profile.

publicist. They have a low profile. We're talking about the country wedged

We're talking about the country wedged between the giants of Argentina and

between the giants of Argentina and Brazil. Monte Vado, I believe, is the

Brazil. Monte Vado, I believe, is the And they've got that beautiful uh resort

And they've got that beautiful uh resort beach that all the wealthy Argentinians.

beach that all the wealthy Argentinians. I'm sure they do. And I'm sure you had a

I'm sure they do. And I'm sure you had a girlfriend there. I was never there. No,

girlfriend there. I was never there. No, it was only in Monte Vidio. I was only

it was only in Monte Vidio. I was only in the city. Oh, okay. All right. Well,

in the city. Oh, okay. All right. Well, I'm sure you will have a girlfriend

I'm sure you will have a girlfriend there. No, no. Moldova. Oh, yeah.

there. No, no. Moldova. Oh, yeah. Malddova.

Malddova. Malddova. The last country on earth and

Malddova. The last country on earth and have a girlfriend from. That's why she's

have a girlfriend from. That's why she's the last one because Malddova is

the last one because Malddova is literally the last. After that, it's

literally the last. After that, it's just like the Vana wine. It's very

just like the Vana wine. It's very famous for um it's just an island in the

famous for um it's just an island in the Pacific that's disappearing. What? It's

Pacific that's disappearing. What? It's very famous for wine drinkers. It has

very famous for wine drinkers. It has Muldova. Yeah. Has a huge um catacomb.

Muldova. Yeah. Has a huge um catacomb. Isn't Moldova really Romania?

Isn't Moldova really Romania? No, Muldova is Moldova, but they speak

No, Muldova is Moldova, but they speak Romania. Okay. But like it's just sort

Romania. Okay. But like it's just sort of like the eastern sliver of Romania,

of like the eastern sliver of Romania, is it not? Is it? If it's a Romanian

is it not? Is it? If it's a Romanian people and they speak Romanian, I mean

people and they speak Romanian, I mean it's like if California was its own

it's like if California was its own country and many people or if Canada was

country and many people or if Canada was ours.

Yeah. You didn't see that coming. You got to admit that, did you?

got to admit that, did you? only and I said I I and I still do say

only and I said I I and I still do say to myself aloud every day, you know,

to myself aloud every day, you know, whatever you don't expect, it's

whatever you don't expect, it's happening and it's But you do, I hope,

happening and it's But you do, I hope, think I did the right thing to have

think I did the right thing to have dinner with him. I think having dinner

dinner with him. I think having dinner with him was absolutely you're so smart.

with him was absolutely you're so smart. You you you you go there and and look,

You you you you go there and and look, it's it's this is the president of the

it's it's this is the president of the United States. Whether we like it or not

United States. Whether we like it or not doesn't matter. And

doesn't matter. And um and I think there's a lot of reasons

um and I think there's a lot of reasons I was speculating that that you know

I was speculating that that you know that would be good for you to do that.

that would be good for you to do that. Um I I I think that when you talked

Um I I I think that when you talked about it on the show

about it on the show that that I would have preferred that I

that that I would have preferred that I saw his mission or his will to have the

saw his mission or his will to have the dinner. I wish I would have seen it as

dinner. I wish I would have seen it as less successful.

less successful. Um because you're so smart on Well, it

Um because you're so smart on Well, it was less successful cuz I never stopped

was less successful cuz I never stopped saying all the things I've always said

saying all the things I've always said about him. It would have been successful

about him. It would have been successful if he had somehow seduced me into

if he had somehow seduced me into supporting him. Well,

supporting him. Well, it wasn't maybe more brevity. He You

it wasn't maybe more brevity. He You know what? He treated me fine. That's

know what? He treated me fine. That's that. and now on maybe more maybe I

that. and now on maybe more maybe I would have done some editing but I I

would have done some editing but I I absolutist listen I I you're just being

absolutist listen I I you're just being the only reason I wouldn't I I have not

the only reason I wouldn't I I have not been invited the only reason I would not

been invited the only reason I would not accept an invitation is because I see I

accept an invitation is because I see I see

see no um

no um it's a it's a long flight and I see no

it's a it's a long flight and I see no um really you'll meet with [ __ ] I

um really you'll meet with [ __ ] I don't think Castro and Gashz but not the

don't think Castro and Gashz but not the president of the United States. Yeah, I

president of the United States. Yeah, I I I saw good results come out of some of

I I saw good results come out of some of those things in terms of that I had. I I

those things in terms of that I had. I I don't think that there's anything that

don't think that there's anything that that I would um I just personally

that I would um I just personally wouldn't trust anything that was said in

wouldn't trust anything that was said in the room, including the personality.

the room, including the personality. It's not a it's not a it's not a matter

It's not a it's not a it's not a matter of matter of trusting it. It's a matter

of matter of trusting it. It's a matter of seeing it, matter of experiencing,

of seeing it, matter of experiencing, matter of knowing it. more. It's like

matter of knowing it. more. It's like saying I don't want this uh medical test

saying I don't want this uh medical test because I you know I don't want to know.

because I you know I don't want to know. I want to know. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough.

I want to know. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. So yeah. I mean I have some good friends

So yeah. I mean I have some good friends that you know are I said this many times

that you know are I said this many times in within the piece when I did it that

in within the piece when I did it that like it's up to I'm just giving you the

like it's up to I'm just giving you the report. It's up to you to make the

report. It's up to you to make the decision. Who do you think is the real

decision. Who do you think is the real guy? I'm telling you there's a very

guy? I'm telling you there's a very different guy behind closed doors in a

different guy behind closed doors in a different setting now

different setting now capable of performatively that yeah well

capable of performatively that yeah well one of the either well you know my my

one of the either well you know my my friends who believe in astrology would

friends who believe in astrology would say uh he's a Gemini of course there's

say uh he's a Gemini of course there's two of them

two of them okay that's one way to look at it other

okay that's one way to look at it other people will say well you know the the

people will say well you know the the the real guy is the you met and he's

the real guy is the you met and he's playing this clown on TV and other

playing this clown on TV and other people will say the the reverse, you

people will say the the reverse, you know, he's well I mean it seems harder

know, he's well I mean it seems harder to do the reverse. I mean, can you

to do the reverse. I mean, can you really pretend to be sane?

really pretend to be sane? You can pretend to be insane. I think

You can pretend to be insane. I think it's harder to pretend to be sane, to be

it's harder to pretend to be sane, to be measured and like all the things I said,

measured and like all the things I said, which is just what happened. So again,

which is just what happened. So again, there's three parts of this. Would you

there's three parts of this. Would you go to the dinner? I think you're crazy

go to the dinner? I think you're crazy not to not to want to see up close the

not to not to want to see up close the person who's this important in

person who's this important in everybody's lives for the last decade.

everybody's lives for the last decade. Two, are you going two, are you going to

Two, are you going two, are you going to lie about it? I'm sorry. I'm not a liar.

lie about it? I'm sorry. I'm not a liar. I don't lie. So, I told the truth. And

I don't lie. So, I told the truth. And then three, do I go back to doing what I

then three, do I go back to doing what I always did? Yes, I did. Yeah, but you

always did? Yes, I did. Yeah, but you could have told more truth or you could

could have told more truth or you could have told less truth. I told a lot of

have told less truth. I told a lot of truth. I told everything. I would have

truth. I told everything. I would have enjoyed a little more brevity on that,

enjoyed a little more brevity on that, but I absolutely understand that. But

but I absolutely understand that. But that's just emotional. You were just

that's just emotional. You were just triggered. That's It's possible. It's

triggered. That's It's possible. It's possible. I I It's true that But I would

possible. I I It's true that But I would like for some reason this this

like for some reason this this particular president uh triggers me

particular president uh triggers me rather often. Exactly. He makes people

rather often. Exactly. He makes people crazy, but he's not making me crazy. But

crazy, but he's not making me crazy. But so you really wouldn't go? No, I don't.

so you really wouldn't go? No, I don't. I'm not saying I I I think I think I

I'm not saying I I I think I think I wouldn't because Let me put it this way.

wouldn't because Let me put it this way. what I know I would not do and

what I know I would not do and especially he's very I would not I would

especially he's very I would not I would not go let's say so for example when I

not go let's say so for example when I we talk about this very different uh

we talk about this very different uh president of Uruguay um

president of Uruguay um I I you know there were things that

I I you know there were things that Uruguay had models of in development

Uruguay had models of in development that could be very helpful to Haiti and

that could be very helpful to Haiti and I went to see if we could get some

I went to see if we could get some training from them and so on and so

training from them and so on and so forth which we did and whereas if I were

forth which we did and whereas if I were let's

let's representing a cause celeb. Uh, say it

representing a cause celeb. Uh, say it was Ukraine, say it was whatever it was,

was Ukraine, say it was whatever it was, I would not fool myself that there was

I would not fool myself that there was any I was going to get anywhere with

any I was going to get anywhere with him. I know that I wouldn't. I know that

him. I know that I wouldn't. I know that I would have no influence. Bad attitude.

I would have no influence. Bad attitude. You don't know that. You don't know

You don't know that. You don't know anything. He's a guy who frequently

anything. He's a guy who frequently seems to go by what the last thing he

seems to go by what the last thing he heard was. He's very everything with

heard was. He's very everything with I'll tell you this about Donald Trump

I'll tell you this about Donald Trump and you don't know it because you don't

and you don't know it because you don't go to dinners. It's all about I didn't

go to dinners. It's all about I didn't go to dinner with President Trump.

go to dinner with President Trump. That's you should. It's all about

That's you should. It's all about personal relationships. I have not been

personal relationships. I have not been invited. I I Okay, I will get you an

invited. I I Okay, I will get you an invite. He's a star [ __ ] in a way. I

invite. He's a star [ __ ] in a way. I bet you he would like to meet you and

bet you he would like to meet you and you would have a Yeah, you'll see the

you would have a Yeah, you'll see the show. If I see him, they're going to

show. If I see him, they're going to call me a I don't think he watches the

call me a I don't think he watches the podcast. He does watch the show. He w

podcast. He does watch the show. He w he's very He's a faithful He's a

he's very He's a faithful He's a faithful. He's got people that do his

faithful. He's got people that do his thing. I mean, you know, Dan Bino be

thing. I mean, you know, Dan Bino be knocking on your door if you didn't go

knocking on your door if you didn't go to dinner.

to dinner. That's not why I did it.

That's not why I did it. And it could work out the other way.

And it could work out the other way. You don't know. He's very unpredictable.

You don't know. He's very unpredictable. And you know,

And you know, talking about, you know, health and

talking about, you know, health and well-being and what we were talking

well-being and what we were talking about before, we we're like the you

about before, we we're like the you realize that we're kind of a pioneer

realize that we're kind of a pioneer generation as far as the first people

generation as far as the first people around our age who actually have it in

around our age who actually have it in our head. Wait,

our head. Wait, they could solve the mortality thing

they could solve the mortality thing before we get there. That's not

before we get there. That's not something that even existed in my father

something that even existed in my father or mother's mind.

or mother's mind. They just knew they were going to die.

They just knew they were going to die. And nobody even suggested that it wasn't

And nobody even suggested that it wasn't there was no out, right? But you know

there was no out, right? But you know that you and I are thinking I'm Come on.

that you and I are thinking I'm Come on. No, come on, guys. I I I do think it

No, come on, guys. I I I do think it would be great. Um, no, you're not

would be great. Um, no, you're not thinking that if if I don't have to pay

thinking that if if I don't have to pay the price for smoking all my life

the price for smoking all my life because we come up with something great

because we come up with something great that way. But the idea of not passing

that way. But the idea of not passing and getting out of the way is not a good

and getting out of the way is not a good one to me. I think that I want to live

one to me. I think that I want to live and have a great life and and as long as

and have a great life and and as long as I can, but and you know, a natural I

I can, but and you know, a natural I don't want it to go outside of what what

don't want it to go outside of what what I am familiar with in terms of of a

I am familiar with in terms of of a natural lifetime. Yeah. But I I don't

natural lifetime. Yeah. But I I don't agree with that because it seems Well,

agree with that because it seems Well, you don't know how interesting it might

you don't know how interesting it might be on the other side. The other side?

be on the other side. The other side? Yeah. I mean, okay. The other side. What

Yeah. I mean, okay. The other side. What do you think's on the other side? Not a

do you think's on the other side? Not a clue. Could be a black Abyss. Could be.

clue. Could be a black Abyss. Could be. Right. Could be. That's my issue. Black

Right. Could be. That's my issue. Black Abyss. I mean, yeah. I don't know. Uh,

Abyss. I mean, yeah. I don't know. Uh, I'm going to see Black Abyss tomorrow

I'm going to see Black Abyss tomorrow night at the Roxy. Would you like to

night at the Roxy. Would you like to come?

come? But okay, here's what I think is the

But okay, here's what I think is the great tragedy of dying. You spend all

great tragedy of dying. You spend all this time like making your brain better.

this time like making your brain better. Yeah. like we laugh at kids or young

Yeah. like we laugh at kids or young adults who

adults who make fun of us because we're older and

make fun of us because we're older and really I mean it's just it's such a

really I mean it's just it's such a silly flex when they do that because if

silly flex when they do that because if they only knew and when they get to our

they only knew and when they get to our age they'll feel the same way that you

age they'll feel the same way that you know okay we're not as cute as we used

know okay we're not as cute as we used to be but we just know so much more than

to be but we just know so much more than you do because we spent so much more

you do because we spent so much more days learning. You learn something every

days learning. You learn something every day. And so we get to this point where

day. And so we get to this point where our brain is just way more evolved than

our brain is just way more evolved than it was at 30. I know yours is. Well,

it was at 30. I know yours is. Well, yeah. I know yours is. My kids are going

yeah. I know yours is. My kids are going to My kids

to My kids jokes growing up. You know, I'm still I

jokes growing up. You know, I'm still I have I I lost all credibility. You

have I I lost all credibility. You accumulated all this wisdom and then it

accumulated all this wisdom and then it dies. That's the tragedy. You know what

dies. That's the tragedy. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like I'm dying at the

I'm saying? Yeah. Like I'm dying at the top of my game mentally. Yeah. Not the

top of my game mentally. Yeah. Not the top of my game physically probably. I

top of my game physically probably. I guess I get that. Well, but also but I

guess I get that. Well, but also but I don't know if you you've experienced it

don't know if you you've experienced it this way, but also why did I wait to

this way, but also why did I wait to have a sense of general and I'm not

have a sense of general and I'm not talking about without a clear eye for

talking about without a clear eye for the anguish in the world, but on the

the anguish in the world, but on the micro

micro a peace like I'm I I wake up every day

a peace like I'm I I wake up every day in this beautiful gift we've been given.

in this beautiful gift we've been given. Exactly. And and it's and I thought why

Exactly. And and it's and I thought why did I wait so long for that? Yeah, [ __ ]

did I wait so long for that? Yeah, [ __ ] it. Let's go. Oh, just do it. And that's

it. Let's go. Oh, just do it. And that's what I mean. That brain is the one that

what I mean. That brain is the one that should be preserved. Like if you killed

should be preserved. Like if you killed me at 30, no big loss. You're just

me at 30, no big loss. You're just you're just taking out an idiot. It's

you're just taking out an idiot. It's funny. Going back to Moika, he said, you

funny. Going back to Moika, he said, you know, uh on his last day, Moika, he says

know, uh on his last day, Moika, he says when he when he go when he goes out when

when he when he go when he goes out when he goes out, he wants to be like that

he goes out, he wants to be like that guy who comes into a bar, says to the

guy who comes into a bar, says to the bartender,

bartender, "This one's on me.

Ah, that Moa uh on the Navajo thing. I have played many Indian casinos,

have played many Indian casinos, including the Moheaggan Sun. And I

including the Moheaggan Sun. And I thought you were going to I went back to

thought you were going to I went back to like Dunm smoke and I saw you playing an

like Dunm smoke and I saw you playing an Indian in my head and you said I would

Indian in my head and you said I would play Indian casinos. I think I couldn't

play Indian casinos. I think I couldn't do that today. Why don't you do a

do that today. Why don't you do a western? I It'd be great to do a [ __ ]

western? I It'd be great to do a [ __ ] western. Be great to do a western. It

western. Be great to do a western. It would be. Yeah, westerns are great.

would be. Yeah, westerns are great. Yeah. I mean, I just watched uh Sergio

Yeah. I mean, I just watched uh Sergio Leone's Once Upon a Time in the West.

Leone's Once Upon a Time in the West. Yeah. You know, it Yeah, of course. What

Yeah. You know, it Yeah, of course. What a what a work. Well, he was a slamming

a what a work. Well, he was a slamming director. I mean, he was so inventive

director. I mean, he was so inventive and you know, even and the people that

and you know, even and the people that like um Monone who wrote for me with the

like um Monone who wrote for me with the most is the most score. Yeah. He and and

most is the most score. Yeah. He and and he did it in such an eccentric way that

he did it in such an eccentric way that had never been done in a western before.

had never been done in a western before. And all of those things were

And all of those things were revolutionary.

revolutionary. Um Marone wrote the there's a piece of

Um Marone wrote the there's a piece of Gabriel's elbow that in that but it's I

Gabriel's elbow that in that but it's I think the most beautiful piece of music.

think the most beautiful piece of music. The score for Once Upon a Time in

The score for Once Upon a Time in America, his other one. Yep. He's he was

America, his other one. Yep. He's he was great. All right. Thank you for coming.

great. All right. Thank you for coming. You bet. And thank you.

You're wearing a patched up sneaker. I got three. These are out of the wash,

got three. These are out of the wash, but all my stuff from I do a lot of

but all my stuff from I do a lot of woodwork and epoxy. got like three

woodwork and epoxy. got like three Oscars. It's so un Am I helping you now?

Oscars. It's so un Am I helping you now? Are you helping? No. No.

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YouTube Transcript:Sean Penn | Club Random with Bill Maher