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How I built a $3B AI Startup + 7 AI Business Ideas
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myself. I've been an engineer for like,
you know, a couple decades now, and I no
longer write code. I only
[Music]
prompt. All right. So, you founded this
company, but your story is crazy. So,
you're high school dropout, grew up in
Argentina, have been building things and
hacking on things since, you know, a
very young age. Sold a company kind of
early on. I don't know if it was big
sale or small sale. And then you
built this product that has just taken
off. Every front end developer I know
loves it. It's valued, I don't know, $3
billion or so, you know, whatever, give
or take. And you've just done this
incredible thing. And now, and now you
have this AI tool that's also like super
on trend and is something that is doing
really really well. It's a really cool
uh agent that that builds sites for you.
That's my version of the of the the
summary of your story. It's a great
summary. Maybe the only thing I'll add
is
the the crazy way that I've been able to
go from like a teenager in Argentina to
today was has been a lot of open source.
So I've been involved in creating a lot
of technologies that have become
foundational in the tech ecosystem. And
I felt like that and the web has sort of
been my ticket to success of course over
decades of hard work. Well, explain
that. So why did you drop out of high
school? I I I've never been a fan of
like the high school dropout moniker
because I actually really loved the high
school that I went to. So, it was a high
school in Argentina that was a free
public school that had an entry exam.
You had to study really hard to get in.
And I worked so hard to get in. Uh
entered in position number 10 out of
like thousands of students. But I had
two competing interests. I was becoming
popular in this open source ecosystem
because I was creating libraries for
JavaScript and front-end development.
You're like becoming popular at in open
source but you're only 15 16 years old.
So when did you start? Started coding
very early like uh you know seriously I
would say when I was 10 years old I was
creating websites shipping I started
doing work online helping my parents
with our uh like home finances. Was it
just a lucky break or what got you
started? lucky break in some ways, but
um open source. So, I was contributing a
lot to like online forums uh helping
people out. And the lucky part was I
remember this guy who whose name I guess
I'll never know. It was like Dark Shadow
123. He's like, "Hey, you seem to really
enjoy helping people out by writing
tutorials and guides and things like
that. There's this website is a
freelancing website. You could just sell
your services here because you know so
many things about Linux and PHP and
programming." So there was a bit of a
lucky break in that I figured out a
business model for myself really early
on. I got my first check when when I was
in like 11 years old then started I had
a client in the Netherlands when I was
like 12 or 13. Are you pretending to be
a adult or are you openly like it never
I wanted really badly for it to never
come up. And I'm really I guess lucky
that at the time like even Skype was not
a thing. So it was like actually kind of
rare that you have to get on the phone.
So I really took advantage of that. But
so when I got into this high school, my
reputation for doing all of this work
and then my reputation in the open
source world were both growing
simultaneously. So as my grades were
decaying, my sort of online net worth
and contribution and notability in the
world was growing. So I would write
articles, I would get to the front page
of dick.com. I would write open source
software that would get a lot of
traction. I would get written out. Give
give me a sense. Are you I'm gonna say
it in a dumb way. Like are you a genius
or you were just being extremely
helpful? Like was it just like nobody
was writing the tutorial on how to host
your WordPress site or whatever? Was it
like you were figuring things out really
cutting edge stuff? Where were you?
Yeah. When I advise young people on like
how to bootstrap their careers, I say
start by teaching anything. So I started
with like how to compile. There was a
project called
RPPO to get internet connectivity in
Linux. It's like it's just like writing
down tutorial today will do 100 times
better job, right? Or like at best it
becomes training data for an AI to then
explain it back to people. But then over
time I started coming up with my own
breakthroughs. And so I I my quote
unquote big break was I started
contributing to a library called Mood
tools when I was 15 16 years old. And
this library got picked up by Facebook
to become sort of the
inspiration/foundation for their
JavaScript infrastructure. And I got a
job offer from Facebook when I was like
17 years old. And so my contributions to
that project was starting to become more
important. And so you got a job offer
from Facebook when you were 15. Yeah. So
I was I was probably 17 16. So super
early days of of Facebook. So in many
ways, you know, you could have play out
another timeline in which I was in
America already and like I was an early
engineer at Facebook, things like that.
Did you turn it down? Well, when they
discovered I was in
Argentina and other age, I was like,
"Oh, yeah, maybe we should look for
someone else." But that same project
kept opening up up doors for me because
other startups started using the same
foundation and they were like, "Hm, who
should we hire?" And the first thing you
think of is I'm going to hire the people
that contributed to the project. We do
that ourselves today with our open
source projects like Nex.js. We go and
like, "Okay, who's contributing?" Like,
hm, that person seems really
interesting. So when I was about 18,
that's when this startup from
Switzerland reached out and saying,
"Hey, like we want to hire a mood tools
developer." And that's when I basically
just dropped out of high school. Like I
I I had my first real job offer from a
company in Losan, Switzerland. And for
my parents, for myself, it was kind of
surreal, right? Like I'd never left the
country. And I was like leaving
Argentina for the first time with a job
offer in hand at a like an amazing
country, you know? So, it's kind of
surreal. Yeah. I I we hired a kid and
when I was doing a startup in San
Francisco, we had a guy who was in
eighth grade and he emailed me, Johnny
Dallas, and he said, "Hey, I love to
code. I my dad met somebody I met Pete
at a dog park, this our sis CIS admin
guy, and he was like, um, I don't know
anyone else who codes. Can I just come
hang out for the summer? I just want to
be around other programmers." And I was
like, "Oh, man. Amazing. Yes, for sure.
He comes in first day. We just actually
give him a test. We're like, "Hey, we
want you to make this little onboarding
quiz, HTML, just make a quiz, like
multiple choice, take them down to flow
and land them in one of these four
buckets." And he just sits there and he
sits there till like 7 or 8 at night. I
feel bad. But he's like not asking for
help. I just want to see how it plays
out. And he actually ships the quiz at
the end of the the evening. I was like,
"All right, this kid's legit." By the
time he's in 10th grade, we're like,
"This guy's, you know, he's working
basically full-time for us. He's after
school. He's coming in." And so we had
this um I had a conversation with his
mom. I remember at the like downtown and
she's like I can't imagine my son being
like a high school dropout and I said,
"Do you know LeBron James and Kobe
Bryant?" I was like, "Your son is going
pro." And so I think that should be a
little bit of a Yeah, totally. If any
kid is listening to this, it worked like
a charm on on that mom. Try this on your
mom or try this on on anybody where you
can really go pro early. Yeah, totally.
I I always give people very caveed
advice, right? Like I tell them, look, I
went to a high school that was giving us
college level content. So I actually
developed a good foundation, a good
quote unquote world model. I was I
became quite competent in a lot of
sciences and we had really good
chemistry classes, physics, math, etc.
So I'm actually really thankful that I
had a good foundation. And then by the
time I decided not to continue down like
the normal quote unquote educational
career, I had a really good alternative,
right? Like by that time it was really
clear that my my skills were going to
take me somewhere. I didn't know
specifically I was going to get in I was
eventually going to end up in San
Francisco building companies, but um you
know it was it was a bit of a leap of
faith. I was well substantiated in
existing evidence of success.
Hey, let's take a quick break for a
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making this episode possible. Listen, if
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description below. All right, back to
the show. You talking about moo tools
and you're talking about JavaScript. I
read something great that you said. you
you go I kind of bet on JavaScript
because I realized that for the back end
there's you know 100 different languages
you could choose but the the browsers
only know JavaScript right it's like an
unfair advantage looking back I think
you you always arrive to success by
finding asymmetries or finding alpha or
finding unfair advantages and JavaScript
has this unfair advantage that and and I
can explain how it won as well but right
now Every single device on the planet on
the client inside a web browser can run
one language and that language is
JavaScript. It can't run Python. It
can't run C++. It can't run Java. Right?
And the way that JavaScript got there
was actually by beating a lot of
alternatives. So way back in the day, we
had Macromedia Flash as a proprietary
plugin that Steve Jobs put to rest
eventually with the iPhone. Was he right
on that by the way? Was his absolutely
taste correct? Absolutely. we had Java
applets, right? So there was an idea
that the JVM Java was going to be that
universal language and the fact that
when I started going deep into
JavaScript, it was there was still a
little bit of a perception of like it's
like a toy. Why was that? Why was
because okay, I'm a mostly non-technical
person, but I I love you. I love
situations like this where like there
was a hundred contenders and one wins,
but it doesn't win because it had the
obvious traits of what you would think
would win, but there's this other thing
that actually proved to be a big
advantage. So, you know, we were just
talking about like midjourney before
this uh and we're like midjourney like
it's not like the product design. It's
not like somebody some designer sat down
then you'll open up Discord and there'll
be a hundred random channels and in it
there'll be strangers making images but
actually bad was better. Bad was good.
Yeah. Because you learned how to use it.
I've heard say worse is better. Yeah. Uh
not worse. I haven't seen worse better.
I've seen the Paul Lucite one where he's
like uh if you're great, you don't have
to be good. I think it's maybe similar,
but can you explain worse? Yeah. Worse
is better was a paradigm in the early
days of the internet of um specifically
that essay spoke about worse in the
sense of less powerful because sometimes
when you constrain a technology, you
make it a lot more predictable. And so
there were some advantages to like
markup languages that made them worse
but better and became the the successful
foundation of the internet. But there's
a broader point that Brendan Ike the
creator of JavaScript has pointed out
which is that sometimes the success of
technologies or startups can be best
understood through the lens of evolution
in natural selection and Darwinism
rather than like the obvious quote
unquote intelligent design. So there was
an article that he shared at one point
called what would Charles Darwin think
about clean slate architectures. Okay.
And so JavaScript was almost like a
piece of DNA that evolved and became
more sophisticated over time but started
out looking very simple small. It was a
piece of code that you would inline into
the markup. So we when you think about
markup in the sense of like my space
codes or like HTML it was like can we
bring HTML slightly more alive okay so
we need something that's very
minimalistic that we can put right there
inside the markup code and from there it
became more powerful more sophisticated
but most people when they looked at it
in the beginning they were like well it
can't be fast it can't be typed it can't
be correct it can't scale it can't have
a module system but all of these
observations that people were making
were not actually Paradoxically they
were not quite technical. They were like
well at that point as it exists at that
time it cannot do those things. So a lot
of the alpha that I created in my career
was by actually taking it seriously and
saying like well we can add this thing.
So very simple example it's a little
technical but JavaScript lacked classes.
It couldn't do object-oriented
programming in the conception that
people had with things like action
script or C++ or Java. But in the mood
tools team, we did figure out a way of
quote unquote faking it. We created a
function called class with an uppercase
C and when we presented it to developers
like well like so you added classes to
JavaScript. Well, yeah, we kind of added
them. And that actually was one of the
salient features that that stood out to
the Facebook team and and many other
teams in the Bay Area. And so by
evolving that thing and actually betting
on it, that became the asymmetry of of
my early career. And and again like the
experts at the time and this is why I
think there has been a shadow of doubt
cast on experts for many years now. The
experts I think we're familiar with this
because angel investments that are
successful had the same characteristics
of like gh look at how rough that
entrepreneur looks or like look at how
shitty the homepage looks and like you
have to be able to project out what it's
going to be in the future and now
JavaScript has eaten the world. Yeah.
One of the best blog posts I ever did
was I just went back to the way back
machine. I just said here's what the
first website of Airbnb looked like.
Here's what the first website of Uber
looked like, which actually is like very
important for entrepreneurs to look at.
You kind of know intellect. Like if I
asked you, you'd be like, "Yeah, I
probably started off rubbish." But
literally go look at it. Read it. Look
at the thing. Look at the pixels. Look
at the actual pixels because it does a
couple things. First, it you're
overthinking it. Whatever you're doing,
you're probably overthinking to start to
launch. Second, it shows how far you
really have to go to like iterate to get
make things better. And also like how
narrow of a wedge you take like the
Airbnb initial one is like there's a
design conference the hotels are booked
and expensive stay on sleep on another
designer's couch or or air bed and you
just take so much from those like
initial initial web pages and you're
right like once you hang around in
Silicon Valley it humbles you so that
the things that look like toys or the
things that start narrow or the things
that seem limited on six dimensions but
are really good at this one thing they
can't be underestimated and it does
raise the question of genius versus
accident and there's just so many good
stories about the creation of
JavaScript. One was the extreme time
constraint that Mark Andre put Brendan
Ike into the reason it's called
JavaScript is they needed to market it
as Java. They just added script. There's
no relation whatsoever between the two
things. And so the other one was I think
Brandon always says that it took him 10
days to conceive the language. And
that's primarily because of deadlines.
So we're like, okay, we have to ship
something that makes pages come alive.
For those that are not technical, the
way that I sometimes explain what we do
with running JavaScript on the server
and running it on the client is there's
this newspaper in Harry Potter, uh,
which is like a regular newspaper, but
when you open it, it comes alive.
Pictures move. Yeah. So think of getting
the newspaper as the server is giving
you the server rendered pre-rendered
artifact. So it comes with all the
letters, all the static images etc. But
then it's really cool that you can open
it and what we call it technically is it
becomes hydrated. It becomes alive and
more code can run on your side of the
equation and that can be a very enriched
experience. So that's the power of
JavaScript. That's a great analogy. It
can run at the production line. It could
be manufactured. It could be printed but
then it can be shipped to you and then
it can become alive again. And so in
those 10 days, Mark Andre wanted to
basically pitch that like one of the
initial names I think life script. It's
like and then they re JavaScript to
market it more to like the enterprise
traction that it' be akin to today like
we want to call things agents and
perhaps they're not agents or whatever
like so to use the evolution example
it's like the skin color blended in with
the trees. It's like JavaScript just
blend it in with the Java and that gave
it a revolutionary advantage versus
getting eaten because it stands out. But
the other interesting observation is
okay so you have 10 12 days you have to
ship something whatever and what is the
minimum surface that you can ship on top
of which evolution can be bootstrapped.
I think that's much better than trying
to aim for completeness of that initial
version. And what I ask myself when I
study the success of others is were they
really clever to think hm I have to
delete delete delete like I think you
were referencing Rick Rubin's reducing
thing I'm a reducer not a producer so I
think if you're truly brilliant I think
you'll find that you have to delete and
delete and delete and that's one path to
success and because you know what the
more complete picture would look like
but you can exercise that restraint or
you can just stumble upon it through
deadlines, right? Like you have the
classic YC, let's make you ship a
startup in 3 months. And so that is acts
as a forcing function for the reduction
of the surface. And I think there's
something about human nature or perhaps
the pressure that people put themselves
under, which is that I have to add more.
I have to make that homepage. I have to
add more images. I have to add more
gradients, whatever. But then through
the exercise that you talked about, you
can go back and see well actually things
looked pretty simple and they focus a
lot on the content and the on the
essentials. So you you're doing mood
tools, you you go out there to
Switzerland. How do you get to Verscell
and what's the like insight you have to
start this company that has become this
juggernaut, right? Like I think I've
DM'd you like every year for three years
being like, "Hey, can I invest in this
thing?" Cuz it's such a juggernaut that
like so obvious to me that when you have
this sort of developer love Yeah. Yeah,
you really can't help but win and you
were like on the you were on the right
waves that uh to be on for the last few
years. The pattern throughout my career
has been iteration velocity is the most
important thing to optimize for. So my
previous startup which I sold to
WordPress anytime I would start a
project before starting the project I
would start on the mechanism to ensure I
was CTO of that startup. I start on the
mechanism to ensure that my colleagues,
my engineers, my everyone in the company
could ship really fast. My obsession
became how quickly can you go from idea
to sharable artifact from idea to
URL. And today it's seems obvious that
Vero is so successful and that you can
prompt and get a link and you can go
from prompt to
application. But I didn't have AI at the
time. What I had was what I can do is I
can streamline the deployment pipeline
of ideas. Sorry, just so I can summarize
what you said. You said most important
principle for me when I work on a
project is that we're going to be able
to ship fast and iterate fast. In order
to ship fast and iterate fast, we need
like our our pit crew, you know, if
we're a Formula 1 car, we need our pit
crew to not take 6 hours to change the
tires or to get us refuelled to get back
on the road to go for the next lap. So
what you were saying is you would focus
more than the average bear on that that
pit stop between idea and actually
because exist. So I had to like I had
the insight that instead of just
assuming that the world that maybe it
takes hours to ship or you can ship once
a week. I was like no let's look at the
web. The web is so fluid because of all
of the reasons that we just outlined.
It's just is so alive. Why can't we be
shipping a 100 times a day? Why can't we
try lots of different things? I I
actually just interviewed recently for
off-site the the founder of Door Dash
and he was talking about how Door Dash
started out with one HTML page and six
PDFs of the restaurants that they were
going to deliver for and they just
brought the idea online as soon as
possible. So to some people it becomes
obvious that the most important thing is
to get the idea out into the world as a
URL and see if it sticks. So I wanted to
create a platform where that was the
norm and that was sort of the inception
the idea for Verscell and because before
Versel I was at WordPress I noticed
WordPress as a company had become quite
good at deploying one app WordPress.com
but if you were work working for the
company and you had a new idea you were
kind of getting stuck you had to go to
the IT team and be like hey please can
you set up a server for me can you give
me an area here where I can come up with
a new application or a new idea idea and
so Verscell started out as can we reduce
that friction from idea to live to
seconds. In fact, it became such an
obsession it started measuring each
millisecond of like you have an idea,
you write it down in JavaScript or HTML
or whatever, you press deploy, how
quickly can we get it online. It was
that it was literally I love the Formula
1 metaphor because it was it's about
shaving down the seconds that were
stopping the scar. And this car is not
just one app or one idea or one person.
It's literally how the entire business
works. This is why Versa has been so
successful with the largest companies in
the world like investment banks and also
it powers most of the YC startups that
are creating new ideas in the manner
that I just described which is like hey
I need to try something out and I need
to hit demo day what is the quickest way
to deploy it's so it sounds like this
might be one of those startups where you
didn't need to pivot a ton. It sounds
like you maybe had the correct idea like
you knew the pain, you knew the problem
correctly and it sounds like you had a
right idea of the solution then you
obviously made it better but is that
true? Yes and no. So when you achieve
some level of success people start
studying your success a lot and people
ask me a lot like did you pivot did you
not pivot what what can be for the
chicken or the egg and the reason that
they ask me this is we have an
extraordinarily successful open source
project that Verscell created called
Nex.js JS NexJS powers a lot of the
modern internet like you talked about
Midjourney. Midjourney is built with
Nex.js. And by the way, you make money
off of that. I didn't understand. It's
just you open source that widely
adopted. Does Verscell benefit in it in
any way? Really? Yes. Because it's in
the service of okay, how can we get that
Formula 1 car going? Okay. Start with
XJS. You're going to cut down on the
whole assembly of the car. Okay. The
alternative to next is that you have to
procure the the chassis and the wheel
and the engine. Like this was actually
what was happening to engineers when I
started the company. I was like, "Okay,
so how do you start a new idea?" Oh,
well, I go to Home Depot and I shop for
like 200 different kinds of wheels and I
grab the wheel and I go to this thing
and and then I assemble the Formula 1
car and then maybe I get started running
it and then maybe I see if I have
product market fit. So you created
Nex.js and I I believe the story is you
were trying to build something and to
use React you're like, "Oh [ __ ] I got
to like go get the engine and the test.
I got to go get all these pieces. All
right, I'm just going to build this kind
of template for myself building the
website for the company. Kind of like
the experience of Door Dash. Like I had
to build zite.co, our domain name at the
time. It was like, okay, to get started
with React, I have to do like get a PhD.
So to your point about was the idea
correct? This idea is so powerful that
you cut down the time for humanity to go
from some hypothesis to a production
grade deployment and going down from
weeks of setup to seconds. It seems
obvious. What was not obvious and felt
like endless pivots was narrowing down
the scope. The reduction that you just
talked about. We started out with like,
oh, you can deploy anything. You can
deploy Java. It's so contradictory even
to my Genesis story, right? Like you can
deploy Haskell, you can deploy PHP, you
can and then we realize, wait, why are
we doing all this? Clearly, we we
believe that the modern web will be
powered by frameworks like Nex.js. And
we believe that there's an there's alpha
in the market and the world of
democratizing this idea of using both
JavaScript as your sort of like backend
and front end language which massively
simplifies software development. So I
will say we didn't pivot in the sense of
going into a different space but we
simplified the offering way way way
significantly.
you have this interesting seat where you
get to see what a bunch of people are
building on your platform or using Vzero
or whatever and then you also just like
you're on the edge I would say of like
tinker hacker technical person who kind
of sees what's possible but you only
have so many hours in the day. So you
tweeted out this thing that said free AI
ideas. Yeah. And it's like if Gordon
Ramsay opened up a lemonade stand. It's
like wow. Like, you know, if Steve Jobs
was like, "Hey, free product lessons for
toddlers." I'd be like, like, "Get my
daughter in that class." Right? So, when
you say, "Free AI ideas, I want to show
up." So, can we run through some of your
AI ideas? Yeah. And I'll give you a
little bit of background, right? So,
I've always been obsessed with
democratizing the web for everyone. So,
any anyone with an idea has to be able
to create. And that's why we created
VZero because VZ is like chat but for
creating web applications. Instead of
giving you text, it gives you a fully
working web application. You say, "I
want to make a make me an app or a site.
Maybe the next Door Dash." You can
literally type that in. It'll it'll make
one. Yeah. And the difference I would
say there's many players that are trying
to build this. But one of the things
that I'm really excited about is that
it's banking on the lessons of the last
10 years of building the world's most
popular framework for
JavaScript and building the production
grade infrastructure to support it.
Right? Like I'll name a cool brand that
uses Verscell, Ramp, Supreme.com,
uh, Brex. In fact, we we have so many
successful companies in every market
segment that you could imagine. But all
of those companies needed expert
engineers, right? Like in order to build
like a really cool website like uh drink
ag.com, you need to learn Next.js. Now
the magic of our cell is that we cut
down the learning from like I needed to
know all of the foundations of computer
science and all of the foundations of
AWS and how to deploy software. We
brought it down to like take a react
course and use XJS. But with AI, we can
cut that down even further. It just
doesn't speak English and we will steer
the model towards what we think are
going to be the world's most successful
outcomes. We care deeply about
performance. When e-commerce websites
deploy on Versell, they vastly out
compete everything else. So, we recently
heard about a public company that sells
billions of dollars worth of consumer
electronics a year that improved their
conversion rate by 30% on some markets
to 90% on some other markets. Why?
Because the website is faster. So
imagine if you could go to an agent and
say, "I want to create the next big
competitor, apple.com. We're going to
make it faster, more accessible,
beautifully designed, and deployed on
this enterprise grade infrastructure."
You get those out of the box. You get
those for free. Out of the box. So, and
it's true to the spirit of the company
of like how can we get that Formula 1
car running as soon as possible. So,
it's opening up creation and deployment
to basically every human on the planet.
Okay. But you were saying that's context
for the AI ideas because what because of
two things. One is that with V0ero any
idea that I have I can bring it to
reality. But then there is a meta. So
we're being very successful with Vzero
because we created AI for web engineers
or AI for people that are interested in
shipping to the web. There's going to be
so many other verticals that are going
to be similarly disrupted. And it seems
really obvious to me because I'm on the,
you know, to your point, I'm behind the
scenes of building things like VZero,
but I think there's going to be, for
example, why don't we have a Vzero for
creating video games, a studio that
combines the best of both worlds of
software 1.0 techniques and software 2.0
techniques. And I don't know if you're
familiar with that framework, but
explain. So Andrew Karpathy, who's the
lead of AI at Tesla and later OpenAI,
came up with this incredible essay that
I think is canon now. Like everybody
must read this because it's so ahead of
its time of he called it software
2.0. And he says, look, software 1.0 was
what I grew up with programming
languages, data structures,
u algorithms. You learn how to make
things more efficient by writing better
for loops and recursion and you're in
control of everything and everything is
very deterministic and
predictable. Software 2.0 we're still
using foundations of computer science
but we're making the process a lot more
stochastic probabilistic. Instead of
writing every circuitry of the
programming language, we're relying on
training models with data. And the
output of what those models do might
resemble what a program might do on its
own. Like a 1.0 program might do on its
own. So the best example would be you
can use Chad GPT40 with image generation
to produce like incredible diagrams and
there's ways of generating those
diagrams with traditional software
engineering. But this AI is almost like
this miracle general purpose program
that can do anything based on what it's
been trained on. So let's call training
and neuronet networks and AI software
2.0. And it has all of these magical
emergent properties that were not
thought through by the engineers. The
engineers didn't have to go and write
every if else branch that is under the
hood and think about every corner case.
And that's why it's so exciting to
people because every time a new model
comes out, we're all like we call it
discovering the latent space. We're all
trying to figure out what is even
possible because even the creators of
the models don't know what's possible,
which is in stark contrast to software
1.0. Software 1.0 is like there's a PM
giving you tickets. I know exactly what
this can do. I know exactly what it
can't do. I know if you push this
button, you're going to get this exact
result. I know if you push that button,
you're going to get that exact result.
The new model, you're saying even the
makers of it are like, I'm not sure
exactly what it could do, how well it
could do. You push this button, you're
going to get something. Yes, it could be
phenomenal. It could be, you know, a
little bit unpredictable in some ways.
But my what I offer is that the
successful AI products of the future are
going to be an intersection of these two
worlds. You're the software 1.0 parts of
the product are still going to be highly
valuable. If not, Vzero would just be
purely an autonomous AI, but think about
it. It's still writing NexJS code. Is it
still using UIs that make it friendly
for people? It's it still has a
community of te of of templates that you
can click with one click deploy and it's
still banking on the 10 years of
investment of versell infrastructure and
our partner infrastructure like
superbase and neon and the databases
that we bring in. So I think people are
going to be able to do this in many
other verticals. So video games is an
obvious one to me because you will want
parts of the game engine to be just like
Unreal Engine is, right? Like you'll
want something like a Nex.js but for
video games that is under the hood. But
then you'll want to open up video game
creation to as many people as possible.
like start with a prompt and you're
going to be like, I want to create
something that is like Pokémon Red uh
but the art should resemble this and it
should be in threedimensional space and
it has 10 missions. So you start
describing with English what you
actually want. So is this possible
today? Like where does the tech the tech
could do this today? Oh yes. In fact,
I'm like why has someone done this
please? Like where are you all at? Uh
and so I'll tell you some of the things
that we've done to help facilitate this
world.
So using the game engine metaphor, you
can think of V 0ero as one video game
that Verscell built and you can think of
Verscell as a game engine. And so
there's going to be way many many other
video games that people are going to
create. So if you have an idea for an AI
agent, you can deploy it on the Verscell
platform. So you can you can do Vzero
for doctors, you can do Vzero for video
games, you can do V 0ero for lawyers. So
any vertical that you can imagine we
even templatized. So we've open sourced
a lot of what makes Vzero so great so
that entrepreneurs can come in and say
like look I see an opportunity for AI to
disrupt this space. Let's take the video
game example real quick. I think you
made did you make a Doom thing or did
you do you support Doom or was that an
AI generated Doom? No. So that was uh
the one you're talking about is my Doom
capture thing.
So, for context, I'm a u I hate capture
first of all. Like capture is a thing
where you go to a website and it tells
you, "Please tell me how many feel
stupid cuz you're like a bike." That's
right. It's the bike or select the
staircases. Yeah. Right. So, I created
one which was instead of you select
staircases or stop lights, you have to
kill three enemies in Doom.
And funny enough, the idea came over the
uh Christmas break and what I did is I
went to Vzero and I said, I want to
create a capture that looks exactly like
Google capture cuz it needs to look
familiar for people for the joke to it
pops up. Yeah. Yes. And then I basically
took advantage of the fact that Doom has
been open sourced. So what I did is, and
this is kind of like a maybe a little
bit more of advanced engineering here,
but like I took a web assembly version
of Doom that can run inside the browser,
and I prompted my way to basically spawn
the user in a very specific level. And
then this actually involved hacking the
C codebase of of the of the game. And
then basically set it up so that it was
a constrained version of the video game.
So you kill three players and you pass
the capture. So it's almost like
creative engineering you can call it. Uh
and this is something I think is also
going to be big in in in in the world.
You could argue that someone could
create an entire platform for just
creative coding. AI for creative coding
where like the next generation of
artists are going to be playing in this
dynamic medium. They're going to be
offering up things that are highly
interactive. So you could create the V 0
for interactive art. Um, so it's kind of
meta, right? But like I started with
Vzero and I created this thing and it
went viral and like there's like three
or four like news articles written about
it, but it literally took a couple hours
of prompting. Like myself, I've been an
engineer for like, you know, a couple
decades now and I no longer write code.
I only prompt. The last one on this
video game thing, cuz it kind of blows
my mind that that's possible. I I would
have assumed it's not possible yet. is
can it only make very simple Flappy Bird
style games or can it make like can you
build a Fortnite? Can it make Fortnite?
You know, where are we at today of like
what's actually possible? Yeah. So,
there's two levels to this. If you go to
Vzero today, you could prompt and create
a one-off video game. But the next level
is that I think there's going to be
entrepreneurs who are going to create
the next big AI platforms and deploy
them to Versell. And so, it depends on
where you want to play. If you just want
to create something that looks like
Fortnite, you could do that today. You
could just prompt like it's possible.
Really? Yeah. I mean, I think you'll
probably go down a journey similar to
what JavaScript went through where you
you're going to be able to get something
basic going and it might take you the
next 10 years to perfect it to the level
of what Fortnite is today. But this is
the beauty of things like Vzero like
anybody can cook. You can start, you can
get it out there kind of like Door Dash
was six PDFs and a website. You can get
the
V0ero of Fortnite out there into the
world. But I think there's also going to
be ambitious people that maybe have
skills that are more on the game engine
side kind of like I created Nex.js and
can say look there's an opportunity to
create a framework that works really
well with LLMs that enables broad
massive scale game creation. And the
things that you can facilitate in that
world are for example for a game to be
successful it needs really high quality
textures. and it's really cool art. So
you can start creating kind of like a
platform that facilitates bringing the
art in. So that's why I mentioned with
you will need software 1.0 skills just
to create kind of like the platform and
and create the connective tissue that
facilitates this highly opinionated
workflow because creating video games,
you know, obviously there's a lot that
is like art and like emergent. the the
game creator has to come in with an
idea. But there's a lot of things that
are highly predictable like there is
there's kinds of games. There is like
the 2D platformer. What does a 2D
platformer need? Well, all of the
runtime infrastructure, all of the
things that make a game work already
exist on the internet. Uh and the AI is
perfectly capable of sort of
orchestrating it. So what a game a
wouldbe game creator would need is a
very easy way of like generating the the
game assets. And so what I would do if I
was an entrepreneur doing this is like I
would connect it to other image
generation
models so that when you come to this
game creation studio I'm kind of like
guiding you into like here's all the
things that you're going to need. Here's
all the integrations. Sound creation is
another good example. 11 Labs allows you
to create sounds with LLMs. In fact,
I've vi coded a few things that required
sound and instead of like googling for
like open source sound effects or
whatever, I just went to 11 Labs and I
prompted for that. So, and I can do that
because I know everything that kind of
exists in the AI world. I know that 11
Labs creative engineering. Exactly. But
imagine a wouldbe game creator that
doesn't know that. So, they just want to
go to a platform that has already
builtin sound creation with AI. And so
behind the scenes, you can sort of like
plug this in. So maybe to summarize, I
think there's all of these permutations
of technologies that already exist that
are making new platforms possible. And I
think entrepreneurs don't need to like
go and train foundation models. They
just need to go in and put the pieces
together into opinionated workflows. The
things that are becoming obvious to
people
today are, you know, AI for legal, AI
for developers, and I think those are
kind of like the zero to one is what
feels very immediate, what feels very
emergent. I sometimes call it unbundling
Chad Gubd. When Chad GBD came out,
people were like, hm, I can ask it for a
a draft of a NDA. And so people said you
know you I can take that slice of an
idea and I can turn it into a legal
platform. What we realized was like hm
you can go and ask it for web UI. Chip
was quite good at outputting you know
react HTML next.js and so we went and
said oh this can be vzero this can be a
whole platform for web development. And
so I what I challenge people to think
about is that what are those like
clusters of queries that people are
going to chat GBT4 that can become
entire platforms. And I'm sure there are
a lot of people that are going to these
things and saying like I want to create
a video game. But this is just one of
the many ideas that I shared on that
thread. Right. So let's go back to this
type form idea. So this seems like a
super simple one which I like cuz like
you don't need to build like world
changing blah blah blah just to be able
just to be able to do this. Yeah. Yeah.
So that one arose from the fact that if
you look at why Typeform has been so
successful, it's an interface
innovation. It gives you one question at
a time. It feels friendly for the I mean
I hate respond to surveys, but the most
paddable that you can make it for me is
if you give me one multiple choice
versus like boom, oh, I'm going to have
to answer this whole long page. Yeah,
here's an IRS form. Please fill it out.
In fact, IRS would probably have way
higher completion rates and people
paying taxes on time if like they they
create a better UI essentially. Have you
ever used Turboax? By the way, Turboax
is actually a phenomenal experience.
Mhm. It's type form. It's one question
at a time. They don't ask you things
that you don't know the answers to,
which is the problem with taxes. So
smart. They don't like what do you owe?
No, they just And this is one of the
golden rules of on boarding, right?
Forget about forms on boarding. Like
give me one thing to do. Remove all the
distractions. Remove all the links that
might take me out of the flow. I I give
people this little hack sometimes like
if you're in a flow where you want
people to complete a task, why are you
making the logo clickable and why are
there like six footer links taking me to
like the [ __ ] founding story of the
company, right? Why distract the person?
So I type form kudos like they they
nailed that. But I think there might be
an opportunity on two levels. One is I I
keep using this formula of if I need to
create a form and very quickly send it
to you, I could have the be zero for
form creation where I prompt my way to
tune the form. Yeah, because it could
even come up with the questions for you.
Exactly. Like, hey, I'm coming up with a
uh I'm trying to get uh I'm asking my
friends what dates work for the bachelor
party. Send a quick survey out to my
friends. Make it fun. I'm sure someone
will go to Vzero, listen to this, and
start creating the AI form creator,
right? I think it's a really good idea.
And by the way, I think there's a add-on
to this. So, I had a similar idea once,
but uh I was thinking we own this
business called somewhere.com. Great
domain name. Yeah, we paid a great price
for this domain name. I jury's out on
that one, but you know, you find talent
in LAM or South Africa or you like your
story, right? There's talent is
everywhere. Opportunity is not always
everywhere. And so when the website, the
way it works today is you land and you
click like, okay, I want to start
hiring. And then there's a long form and
it's all there. It's a bad experience.
It's like your name, what you're hiring
for, your budget, you know, do you need
a full-time, parttime, whatever. And
then it says, great, now book a call.
And then you're going to talk to the
sales guy. And I'm like, you know, with
AI, what this should really do is it
should you should land and be like, hey,
what are you hiring for? What do you
need? And you say, what you what I need
a designer. Cool. So, you know, cool. We
got plenty of designers. We actually
just hired designers for X company, XYZ
company. Tell me, do are you looking for
a graphic designer or blah blah? Yeah.
What are they going to do? And you kind
of just quickly tell it. It says, you
know, we recently placed somebody like
this res candidate profile pulled from
our system. Yeah. And just say, you
know, would this be the type of person
that, you know, would fit the type of
thing you're looking for? They cost this
much. That's, you know, pretty
affordable to be able to hire somebody
of this level of talent. And you're
like, yeah, yeah, that would be great.
More like that. It's like, awesome.
What's your email? I'll send it to you.
Like, it's a salesperson. It's not a
form. And it's a salesperson that does
what all sales people do. They ask
questions. They follow. They they note
what you say. They respond
intelligently. They follow up where they
need. They disqualify you if you're not
a good fit. And if you are a fit,
they're basically giving you bits of
proof and promise along the way to get
you to say, "Yes, I can't believe this
doesn't exist." It's a more dynamic
interface. Right. So, you said something
really interesting, which is I think
when people have ideas, it's like
they're looking, they're staring into
like a vector space. They know that
there's something there that they want
to do. And this is for everything. Like
you may have an idea for like a survey
that you want to send to your customers.
And you're like, "Yeah, I know that it's
mostly about getting product feedback
and how happy they are and what they do
for work." But you might be forgetting
that there's a very important question
that people that do these surveys
typically ask and you just don't know
about it. This is why an AI first type
form would make so much sense because
when you prompt it, I want this form for
this thing, it'll know things that you
don't, right? And and this even goes
back to and it'll, by the way, summarize
all the results for you at the end
because it'll be like, you know, that's
otherwise a full manual step I have to
do. Great, we got 300 responses. All
right, I got to go through those. And
this is why AI is going to disrupt
everything because what you just talked
about like okay I can also bring AI to
the results process. And my other point
was you can even bring AI to the
submission process because instead of
being rigid and making you select
between 20 things and then you press
other and whatever there might be
innovations also in the maybe it's like
purely conversational maybe it's hybrid
conversational and what we call
generative UI which is that on the fly.
Exactly. On the fly, it chooses what is
the right format to answer this question
and it might learn another thing that
humans do poorly is where did you hear
from us and we write down [ __ ] like
AOL and Google and you're like wait does
anyone use this anymore that should also
you should also give it to the AI to
choose okay this customer is coming from
Argentina so in Argentina no one uses
you know they use them on their link
that's Yeah, you know from GI headers,
but this is an A++++ idea. There were a
lot of people nitpicking my idea in the
in the thread which is like this is a
freaking tweet storm like I'm not like
like describing the freaking entire
company, right? And they were saying no
but UI is still better because so it's
like sure but again it doesn't mean that
the UI is as rigid as it is today and
that the eight choices of check boxes
are rigid as well. And in um I remember
there was this company called Wufu in YC
batch at one point. They had created a
beautiful form builder and the form
builder was all drag and drop and you
had to select the type of response all
that stuff is going to go away. In fact,
I would give you as a rule of thumb that
if drag and drop is involved as a
primary
uh interaction mechanism is probably
ripe for disruption because no one wants
to actually drag and drop stuff. You
just want to say like this is my idea
just build it. Right. Right. That yeah
that's like a tell. It's like a poker
tell. Drag and drop is like the maybe to
use the software 1.0 and 2.0 metaphor.
Drag and drop was was making 1.0 more
paddleable and accessible to more
people. Visual coding, visual
programming was that as well. How can we
make 1.0 more accessible? Well, we
invented dragging stuff and showing it
in two dimensional space. Um, let's do
some more. So, you had one that was
called AI camera. What's the AI camera
idea? This was back to like embrace the
rapper. Embrace the fact that models are
[ __ ] phenomenal and there's a few
hyper online people like me that know
all of them or try to know all of them
of like deep grand V3 just landed on
high pays and whatever. Like you're
paying attention to that level of of
depth. Yes. But the average consumer
just wants to take awesome photos. Yeah.
And so I've been, this one came up
because we were at a very big meeting
for a bank that wanted to use Verscell
in New York and the champion on the bank
side was like, "Let's take a photo with
a beautiful like New York backdrop,
whatever." And it was so awkward that we
tried it we tried to take the photo 20
times because it's hard to take a photo
with like where is the sun and the
backlight? We want New York to be
visible, but we want our faces to be
visible and like someone blinks during
the photo. And so, I mean, if there's
men involved in a photo, it's a terrible
photo. Yes, this is just a general rule.
Taking it, standing in it, posing in it,
we don't know how to do any of it. So,
think of the input from the shutter.
Think of the click of the camera, and
this is a software camera, like an
camera app, as the input into the prompt
rather than the output. If you're
extremely good at taking photos, it
could just be the output. Or maybe it's
lightly tuned and filtered and whatever
and it becomes the output. But maybe
just embrace the fact that it's an idea
to give the AI, right? And the AI will
know that if that photo was taken in
that place, the goal is to obviously
show people smiling. No one should be
blinking. The backdrop needs to look
amazing. And you know maybe actually
gives you five permutations
of we know what good looks like. We know
the shades, the lighting, the maybe it
removes objects for you. And so I also
mentioned that there is software 1.0
techniques and software 2.0 techniques
to embed into everything. You shouldn't
believe that you need the perfect model
that'll make the photo perfect either.
You can give people a workflow. So, what
I had imagined at the time was like it's
going to look like Instagram because I
love how Instagram you took the photo
and then filter picker and then it's
called like San Ramon filter and
whatever like Oakland and like hipster
whatever. So imagine it's giving you
permutations but also maybe it gives you
the tool to like select something. Maybe
already I'm just purely brainstorming
now by the way like you had me like full
on restoring like there's a model that
is really good for like that Apple uses
for like removing objects on the scene.
So maybe by the time it gives you the
produce photos all of the objects are
already movable. So you get cuz what
happens a lot of the time is someone
blinks but also there's an object that
you don't want on the scene like your
your baby was like crawling in there or
your dog pooped and like you want to
take the best one. Argentina what's
what's the name of that beautiful
waterfall like the craziest the
waterfall Iazu falls Iguazu Falls. Take
out the tourist. I go there with my my
fiance and we we take this photo under
the waterfall. we're kissing is somebody
takes a photo and there's this dude in
the like kind of the ang you know in the
background there and he's got his shirt
off and he's taking like a photo for the
boys and it's like ruined this photo and
my wife is like I want to frame it cuz I
think it's so funny and she's like been
trying to find a photo shopper to like
get rid of this thing and you're right
like that would be like her dream would
be the magic magic camera that says let
me guess you want this guy out of here
and we have the model that is good at
taking you know detection and then good
at removal.
automatically. Yeah. And uh this is all
possible today. You know, your job will
mostly be to combine models, create
pipelines of models, prompting even,
right? Do you think that Apple will just
make this kind of default in the camera?
I mean, Apple could have shipped
Instagram, Apple could have shipped so
many things like Apple could also ship
that the zoom annoying pop over of
facial effects, whatever goes away and
they haven't is still broken like when
the balloons come up. So, I know I'm I'm
in a post worrying about what Apple does
world. I'm actually more worried about
their constraints on developer freedom
on how they tax you and only let you run
one browser engine. That's kind of my
mental model. Like Apple is like in the
IBM phase of like let's preserve what we
have at all cost and litigate. Like
they're almost becoming like Oracle of
our generation purely. It's all about
terms of service and 2.1.1 prohibits
this. is like hopefully, you know, I'm
saying this so that the company becomes
better in the interest of like open
public feedback. Tim Sweeney from um
Unreal from Epic Games just had a
similar comment on the Lexman podcast. I
think there needs to be a world where
developers can just ship. That's the
main idea of Versel and like Apple has
sort of been constraining that. So I'll
tell you like there's so many cameras
that you can ship to the phone that
people love, right? So there is holiday
camera I think it's called and it's
pronounced. Um there is obviously
Instagram is a camera, right? So Savage
is a camera. So yeah and and also but
it's also time like you know these
things come in these waves about every
seven 8 10 years the window reopens on
you know the these kind of like uh
things. If you just look at Instagram
and Snapchat when they came out, it was
sort of like this 8-year period after
Facebook came out and like there was
enough new stuff, new either new social
norms like people taking pictures
everywhere, new technology like
smartphones that all of a sudden there
was like an opportunity for those. It's
now been another 10 years post Snapchat
and Instagram for somebody to build a
better camera. And there's a wedge
through utility. Like you can build a
better camera, you can build a better
like oh just import your photos, start
editing like the the exact approach like
I mean who knows how this is going to
happen but it has to happen. It has to
happen that like I can take great photos
even if I don't if I didn't capture
everything perfectly like the AI is
already there like just make it happen
people. Yeah, you could even actually
just do the camera roll part, right?
Because you know Google photos and all
these they try to do this like hey we
made a memory and like you know like my
my mom loves these. It's like oh I
forgot about that. It's stitched
together and it put corny music on top.
There's no cool factor to them. Those
are all pretty totally bad, but it's
your photos and your memory, so it's
still good enough. Imagine if you had
taste and you did it. Like imagine if
Kevin and you you realize, oh, there's a
gold mine on people's camera rolls that
I could just be generating. I could just
be mining that and creating like
actually good content. Yeah, there's so
many thoughts that come to mind. One is
look, brilliant things happen when
people focus and obsess over a problem
domain. So the operating system makers
have so many iris in the fire and there
has to be someone that just loves to
take great photos and who wants to
democratize that with everybody else,
right? So that's kind of how I think
about it and there's so many angles.
There is the memory video creation,
there is the photo, there is some
aspects of sharability of the photos. So
who knows? I mean like I think my
prediction is more so around like
something amazing is going to happen in
this space more than like what is the
specific thing. All right, I want to do
a couple of your other ideas. Oh, this
one was clever. Absurdly smart
autocomplete. Like I didn't know when
you said that I was like autocomplete,
who cares? And then I saw your kind of
like brief description. I was like,
that's actually brilliant. Can you
explain what this idea is? Yeah, I think
when it started to become obvious that
LLMs were going to transform software
engineering, it was when we started
typing code into a code editor and it
just suggested stuff based on the whole
project, the whole sort of corpus of
code that has existed in in humanity.
The next wrinkle was that things get
better the richer the context.
So, if you only give the LLM one line of
code and nothing else, it'll still
produce something useful and it'll blow
people's minds. And I think we're in the
time of humanity when like things blow
our minds for like a week and then we
get immediately bored and used to it.
Um, but the next wrinkle was what if you
put the content of your clipboard into
the into the prompt because developers
typically are like what they just saw
they put into their clipboard because
they intend to search for it or make a
mutation. So what's in the clipboard is
likely to be kind of what's in your
mind. Could help. Yeah. Right. And so
auto completions get better and then
they get better with more context and I
get smarter models and and with search
because
now when I am in a different file, I'm
likely to be writing code that is
related to the dependency of this other
file. So long story short, things get
better with better context. And autocomp
completion is sort of the first
manifestation of how LLMs and AIS can
enhance your cognitive ability. Yeah. I
mean it's just in time expertise. Yes.
Right. Like in line right while I'm
writing it. Yes. Give me the perfect
thing right there without me having to
leave go ask think think of a question.
Just give me a suggestion right there.
So now what's the that worked in code
you're saying what about the rest? Yeah.
Exactly. And and I get frustrated with
like how bad spellch checking is. So if
you look at, you know, Mac OS spell
checker has gotten better over the
years, but it just doesn't know the
things that you literally saw 10 seconds
ago. Like someone tells you, "Hey, can
you can you send me the B 0?"
Someone says in Slack and then you go to
an email and you start writing Vzero and
and Apple goes I think you meant via
like it comes up with a new word. It's
like no no I literally just was talking
about this. How could I possibly want to
not write that down? And so that's kind
of where the inspiration came for it and
I think there's a lot of ways to go
about this. like one is like you enhance
the operating system is not a is a
non-trivial task but I think this
general idea applies to so many things
where we forget that the LLMs are here
the context is not evenly distributed
meaning if you just put the right things
into the prompt magic will happen
without changing the actual sort of
engine of intelligence and so that
example you gave of like the V01 sounds
minor like oh who cares you it's you
just push bat space twice and just fix
it but what you're saying is if the AI
knows what I'm talking about what I'm
thinking about what I'm working on what
we're doing then in the same way that in
code it auto suggests the right code
because it knows about my whole all the
multiple files and the projects it'll do
the same when I write that email it
won't just give me the generic thing it
knows how I talk and it knows what we
were talking about and it knows what the
plan was that I'm trying to relate to
this guy yeah it's like the Black mirror
the entire history of you. Is that the
one where the camera is like it's like
your external memory basically? Yeah.
The other thing that's really
interesting is that this systems are all
about next token prediction, right? And
right now we're not fully exploiting
that because we're not putting in the
sequence of everything we're doing and
everything we're thinking about. Every
time you go from app to app that context
is getting lost and we typically
actually tend to work sequentially. What
happens is I read an email that is about
a problem and then I go to another app
and I'm likely going to discuss that
problem or I'm going to try to look for
the person that is an expert in that
problem. So the other way to go about
this is like you know how can you ingest
this series of apps and integrations and
systems that people use to do their work
and you connect the dots. There's one
more that you have here. You said uh
more granular v0ero. So this is almost
like hey come disrupt us. Yeah it's is
what I talked about with the game engine
right like just like chat GPD got broken
down into like individual things. We
have a big effort at Verscell to sort of
like we want to be the platform of
platforms. We want the next Shopify to
be born on Versell. And what I
anticipate will happen is that if an
entrepreneur says, I want to make it
easy for people to sell online, they're
probably just like we did with the type
form exercise, they're probably going to
start with AI. They're going to they're
not going to build the same Shopify that
exists today. They're going to create
something that starts with intelligence.
It starts with maybe importing a photo
of the product that you want to sell.
Maybe it starts with a prompt of what
you want your store to be. Maybe it's so
smart that like if it's a physical store
that already exists, it knows everything
about it. Just like one button, create
the store and it ingests all the
products and sues and categories and
whatever. So similar to the game engine
thought experiment that we went through
like that would be a more granular
vzero. It's like okay biz can create
anything but and the reason that this
would work out is that it's the same
reason that Shopify worked out like
there's things that are very general
like AWS like Verscell you know Verscell
is sort of like a AWS on steroids in a
way like we're making it so easy for
people but it's still a broad platform
on top of which any idea can be deployed
and so I really believe that AI will
transform everything it'll transform
website building it will transform
e-commerce it will transform form
building So, a lot of the exercises that
I do is that look, there's going to be
Vzero for legal. Uh, our our general
counsel uses a tool called
GC.AI. GC.AI is essentially Vzero for
lawyers and it was built on the Versell
platform and and the other wrinkle and
it's used to what build their website
only or this is for drafting contracts.
So like you can prompt your way to you
know saying like I need this contract
between these two parties or I need to
review a contract and I need to import
documents. And so that's kind of what I
mean by the more granular visitor is
more like a theme that a specific idea.
One of the other things I wanted to ask
you about something I brought for you. I
thought this was incredible. This is a
piece of uh you know internet internet
history here. So explain what I just
handed you and the the backstory of
this. Thanks for printing this out
because I use this example. so much as
like the magic of Silicon Valley. I was
I ended up at this party, you know, the
classic like could have been an office
warming party, something along these
lines or like meetup and people were,
you know, having conversations, passing
out drinks and he met this gentleman
named Brian
Armstrong and he did something that I
find myself doing a lot is I walk up to
people not with networking agendas or
random ideas. I walk up to people with
content. I want to show them something.
Okay. I want to show them an app. I walk
up to people. Strangers, you mean or
what are you talking about? Well, people
in the concept of like networking, I
might have been whatever, but I could do
it with an Uber driver. Like I I have no
limits. Uh I I take no prisoners. So, he
walked up to me and he's like, "Here's a
I'm working on
Coinbase. It's uh it's like a bank for
digital currency and I'm building an
app." and he shows me the app and then
he goes, "If you install the app, I'll
send you a Bitcoin." Just think about
how crazy that is. Like, if you install
an app, like f first of all, twist my
arm. I love trying out new things,
right? And I loved Bitcoin at that time.
I'll give you $100,000 or whatever. The
date the date is on this email. What
year was this uh that we're talking
about? So, November 9th, 2012.
So, it's the magic of the Bay Area
because you can just walk up on both
sides. You can just walk up to people
and show them things. You can see their
reactions. You can get their feedback,
etc., etc. And on my side, and there's
some people on the street that will show
you some things you didn't ask for, too.
That's another part of San Francisco.
Okay. Yeah, for sure. Uh, it comes with
a lot of diversity. And uh but on my
side, you know, it's like well, you can
be the on the receiving end of new
ideas, new opportunities, new like you
can invest like if I had been an
investor at the time, I was like, hey,
this Brian guys is pretty smart and he's
hustling hard and digital currency.
Might as well give it a shot, right? So
yeah, thanks for So he sent you this
email. He sent you the Bitcoin. The
thing is that it says worth
$1081 for the app installed. Now that's
$103,000 as of this morning. Yeah. And
then I actually ended up following
Coinbase for many years. At the time I
think I was poor or I had just began I I
can't remember exactly when I sold my
company, but I couldn't angel invest
most likely at this time. But that was
the other thing that I started doing
when I sold my my first company, right?
Like I put it all back into the game,
which is kind of crazy. In fact, I
talked to this guy who I really
respected in the JavaScript community
and and he was like he was also starting
to do angel investments and he goes,
"Well, the way that I treat bit Bitcoin
is like an angel investment. I put in a
$20,000 check into Bitcoin." And I
remember when I sold my company, I did
that. uh and and it was probably also
because of the serendipity of like
having Coinbase and you know this
infrastructure that that was nent but I
was I had been exposed to the magic of
Silicon Valley is that you can still do
the things you can just like make things
happen. Did it also help that you were
you know born and raised in Argentina
and you had seemed kind of like maybe
you questioned currency more than the
average bear did right like oh 100%
100%. So the concrete memory, I was a
young child, but it had everyone in
Argentina stressed the f out was, and
people can fact check us and look this
up, but it was like I think we had like
three presidents in three
days. One president had almost like uh I
think he he ra quit
uh because it was an economic and
financial meltdown. I think it was this
was about like 2000 2001.
The next guy comes in and he's like,
"Oh, cool." And the vice president
becomes president. Something along the
lines is like, "Cool. I'll try to fix
it." Two weeks in, he's out, too. And
then someone comes in who I I'm not even
sure if he was like literally like next
in line. Another guy comes in and I
think this is the guy that I'm pretty
sure is the third
guy that goes to national TV. They did
they do the whole thing where like they
interrupt all of the ongoing channels
and they like president comes in. is
like he's addressing the financial
turmoil and he's
saying look there's a lot of noise about
how your dollar savings will get lost
uh and they might get converted into
pesos and they might get converted at a
nonbeneficial rate and he said do not
worry Argentinians and this is on
national TV fully synchronized across
every screen in the country do not worry
your dollars are safe. If you deposited
dollars, this is the exact quote. If you
deposited dollars, you will receive
dollars. If you deposited Argentinian
pesos, you will receive Argentinian
pesos. Literally a week later, it didn't
happen. The dollars got converted into
pesos and then the currency lost its
value. So, basically, your money was
stolen from you.
uh the banks were in uh cahoots with the
government to make this transactions
happen. Your money is effectively just
like when when people joke I I take it
personally to see Michael Jordan. People
joke, oh, Bitcoin is just a database. We
could replace it with Postgress and we
would get a lot more throughput. say,
"Well, not really. What we had in
Argentina was Postgress or maybe worse,
maybe it was Excel or something and like
and the government literally did go in
and in the currency column said select
all convert, you know, I mean like that
is a database that is not immutable."
And so I became extremely pilled with
Bitcoin because I have that like I have
the concrete memory and I have my dad
screaming at the screen and saying like
these people are so corrupt. They're
like screaming. And then the other thing
that happened was all these protests of
people that had large dollar savings
that uh it was so terrible because RC
has been guilty of this before MLE many
times of like if you're rich that's
frowned upon that's terrible. you
probably got rich by screwing someone
up. That is like how the culture was
largely configured. So it was very hard
to empathize with this protest that
would happen because people would
literally be outside of the banks
protesting that their savings got
stolen. But the way that it would get
sort of um um you know manipulated by
the media was are you going to empathize
with that rich guy? Oh, poor him. He's
complaining about his huge dollar
savings. So that added even more insult
to the injury that there was no empathy
to people that were losing their money.
And so you know the Bitcoin seems so
obvious in the context of like we need a
globally distributed database that is
immutable that has extreme security
guarantees because this is your life.
This is your the things that you might
leave for your kids. This is everything
you've worked your entire life for. You
you cannot trust any given actor. You
cannot trust the government. You cannot
trust the banks. You cannot trust, you
know, your friends. You cannot trust
anyone. Like, you need to be able to
have cryptographic certainty. You can
only trust math and the universe, which
is kind of like the two emerging
properties of it. You trust the universe
in terms of like the energetic
uh demands on top of which Bitcoin banks
that it's so hard to mint a block,
right? Right. And it's so hard to
manipulate and do this cyber attacks and
whatnot. And you're also banking on the
cryptographic verification. Like you you
if you want you can be a node and verify
the blockchain yourself with software
that you run as opposed to trusting the
world of like is this legit? Is this the
chain that I should be looking at? Which
is why I mean we can go into a whole
different tangent but like I've always
been uh somewhat unsympathetic to non-p
proofof work systems because they create
an uncertainty about what is the right
chain to be looking at and um uh in in
that category falls like Ethereum and a
few others. Two questions for you.
One uh given that you went through that
do you like kind of denominate yourself
in Bitcoin? Do you like put a huge
percentage of your own net worth in
Bitcoin or like how have you decided to
do that? I put my entire net worth into
Verscell. I've I've I so having said all
of this, I always think about the mental
model that Warren Buffett has offered of
like if I have if I could have a cube of
all gold on the planet and like I would
look at it, it's like, oh, it's this
shiny block of gold or I could have a
cube of all of the productive farmland
in the US and all of its companies. What
cube would I rather own? But it is a
false dichotomy. I want to own both. I
want Bitcoin and I want assets in
product productive assets that are going
to grow over time that I also want to
support. And so I like the idea of by
far first and foremost placing a bet on
myself and Verscell. So that's kind of
my primary net worth. But if Bitcoin is
not some percentage of my net worth, I
would be really worried because I would
not have
that rock solid foundation that I missed
when I was in Argentina. like it it
didn't feel like I had access to
something that could be so reliable and
trustworthy. So I am a fan of a
potential future in which everything is
denominated under the hood. Everything
is rebased on top of this system. That
would be really cool. I uh so when I do
these podcasts like the way I people
think that this is the oh how did it go
and I'm like it's good or bad. Actually,
for me, I get the win far before we sit
down because I when I know you're coming
on, I go down a rabbit hole of Gearmo
and I go and I read your old stuff and I
learn from you. That's where I get and
I'm in I'm in this for the wisdom. So,
I'm like I'm looking for the golden
nuggets, the insights, the wisdom, the
frameworks that he uses, the stories
that inspire me or I can remember or I
can tie to my own life. So, by the time
I sit down here, this is all gravy. Now,
I'm here just having chicken nuggets.
I'm eating lunch. But one of the things
I saw on your old blog, I think it was
like 2016 or something. It was um a
newspaper clipping. I forget who it was,
if it was Edison or who it was, but they
had this idea of the energy dollar. It's
wild. It's wild. I've never heard of
this, but like I guess back in the day,
like the Was it Edison or I don't
remember who it was. It might have been
Ford. I can't remember. Yeah. It was
like two of like kind of the luminaries
of the time. It was like Ford and
somebody else. And they were talking
about this concept of an energy dollar.
They're like, "Hey, we need a currency
that's based off of like the production
of jewels, you know, jewels of energy,
jewels of electricity or work and then
that'll be a more sort of like rock
solid." Like it tracks reality. It
tracks the universe perfectly, right?
It's it's also related to the cardv
scale and like our ability to capture
energy from our nearby star and the
types of civilizations that we are. And
the other one that the the reason I've
been actually also thinking about this
more recently is we're clearly entering
a world in which energy can be
transmuted into intelligence. I mean
it's already the case that I can do so
much test time compute that any any
problem seems tractable with enough
cycles of GPUs and the only limiting
factor does seem to be our ability to
harness energy. And
so the the unit of wealth or or the
store of wealth has to be something that
is rare, right? And it has to be
something that's provable. And so the
idea of tracking our Yeah. our
fundamental store of wealth through
energy. I mean, I'm very intrigued by
that. So Well, dude, thanks for coming
on. I think what you've built is
amazing. Your story is great. Your big
ball of energy and some of these ideas
are really, really good.
I'll share more. So, there's a one more
there's a free ideas 2 thread coming on
X. So, okay. The sequel is it going to
be like a shitty movie sequel where, you
know, just doesn't. But I did set a high
bar. I don't want to I don't want to
brag. Obviously, when that comes out,
can we do Brainstorm 2 on here where we
riff on them because uh that's what we
do here. So, all right, man. Thank you
so much.
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