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Ancient Stories That Bridge The Heavens & The Earth | Jacob Howland | EP 536

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Core Theme

This discussion explores the enduring relevance of ancient narratives and philosophical traditions (Athens and Jerusalem) in understanding contemporary challenges, particularly the flaws in Enlightenment rationality, the rise of technology like AI, and the search for meaning in a complex world. It argues that ancient wisdom offers essential frameworks for navigating these issues.

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One of the things I figured out recently

the significance of the fact that the

root word of question is quest. You have

a question which is your plea to the

gods. Let's say you await a revelation

and then the critical process is

something like internalized dialogue. I

got interested in the Talmud. It's a lot

like the Platonic dialogues and you have

this fictional colloquy. That's the only

way to describe it. Rabbis who maybe

lived centuries apart are brought into

debate and discussion. If we lose touch

with those ancient stories, we lose our

ability to actually understand what's

going on. Elijah, you mentioned Elijah.

Yes. Elijah's foes are the nature

worshippers. That's kind of relevant in

today's society. Given the rise of

nature worship, something will attain

the pinnacle point. What happens in a

universe where finite beings try to find

some meaning and encounter or are

afflicted by infinity in some way? This

is a terrifying thought. I think you

said you saw a similarity with the

dialogues. So, but what else caught your

attention? There is a question that I

know to be absolutely fundamental

because it shows up both in the Hebrew

Bible and in Plato. Okay. And the question

is, so I had the opportunity today to

speak with Dr. Jacob Howland, and I

wanted to speak with him for a variety

of reasons. Um he's a philosopher,

longtime academic, integrally involved

with the new University of Austin, which

is one of a handful of institutions that

are attempting to

reorient, traditionally reorient modern

higher education. He's also interested

in the interface between modern

technology, AI for example, and

philosophy partly in an attempt to solve

what's started to become known as the

alignment problem. How do we ensure that

these autonomous intelligences because

that's what they're developing into will

have the well-being of human beings, for

example, as one of their priorities u or

maybe their top priority, you might

hope. But what we really ended up

talking about was the relationship

between Athens and Jerusalem

philosophically and the and at a deeper

level less geographically centered the

relationship between rationality as such

the enlightenment project and science

and the underlying metaphysical

substrate. And it turned out that the

conclusions that Dr. Howland had drawn

seem to be very similar to the

conclusions that I've been drawing along

with people like John Vervi and Jonathan

Pacio for example variety of the

lectures that we have on Peterson

Academy. It it does appear

that something really quite

revolutionary on the intellectual side

is beginning to emerge because

the flaws in the enlightenment have

become so structural that it's clear

that a new pathway forward not only has

to be found but is likely already upon

us. and the appearance of new

institutions like the University of

Austin, like Peterson Academy, like

Rston are a are an indication of that.

And so we delve deep into the

philosophical relationship between

enlightenment rationality and the

underlying narrative substructure.

That's a good way of thinking about it.

And we discussed that in terms of the relationship

relationship

between Athens and Plato and the

the

ancient religious texts of the western

world. So join us for

that. So Dr. Holland, I I wanted to talk

to you today primarily there's a bunch

of reasons. I think the main reason was

that we have overlapping interests in

new approaches to higher education and

maybe education in general. and you're

involved with the University of Austin

and um I've been involved in Peterson

Academy and also Rston College and so I

thought we could talk about that more

narrowly but we share philosophical interests

interests

and I'm also curious about your take on

new developments in AI especially with

regards to the large language models.

That'll be an interesting discussion cuz

I've used them quite a bit now and I

have a colleague who's helped me program

a number of them custom LLMs and uh they're

they're

uncanny machines and I have no idea

where they're headed. Well, that doesn't

make me special. No one knows where

they're headed. And so that's the broad

landscape that I hope to traverse with

you today. But I think we should start

with let's start with a little

background about you so that people can

situate you. You're a philosophy

professor. You're an acclaimed educator.

So fill us in on who you are. And first

let me say I appreciate you're having me

on your podcast. Uh this is a great

opportunity. Um so I

uh how far back do you want me to start?

Back away so we can start with

undergraduate if you want. Right. Sure.

So uh well I'll start with my parents.

Uh my father was a biology professor at

Cornell University. My mother was a

writer. Uh first nine 10 years of my

life I live with my mother. I have an

older brother. My parents were divorced

before I have any recollection of them

being together. So I was just maybe a

year old. uh during that period my

mother was a struggling writer and lived

in poverty and we lived in Chicago and I

had uh uh the unfortunate experience of

um being in Chicago public schools in

1968 69 and a lot of tension um uh

things became very difficult because my

mother was quite poor and and couldn't

sort of make ends meet. When were you

born? I was born in 1959. End of 1959. Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, so let's see. My mother comes from a

Jewish background. Uh, her whole family

was from Chicago, bluecollar. My

grandfather graduated from the 10th

grade and worked with his hands making

nuts and bolts in a in a big factory.

Um, and uh, my father who's not Jewish

um, actually we're descended from a John

Howland who came over on the

Mayflower. Um, and his side of the

family were all scientists. His father

was an engineer at Purdue University who

designed the sewer system of Lafayette,

Indiana. His older brother uh was a

genius who graduated from Purdue atif at

the age of 17 and was an engineer,

optical engineer um just had 20 patents.

Um and actually both of those guys are

still alive. But in any case, so as a

child I had um strong influences on my

mother's side um let's say literary and

cultural influences. One of my earliest

memories was being in Iowa City when I

was a kid. My mother was reading me a

story by Toltoy called How Much Land

Does a Man Need? And uh my older brother

got me up early in the morning and I

don't know, I was probably four or five.

He was a couple years older and he

finished reading the story to me. So we

always had she always took us to you

know see dance, you know, ballet and

museums and things like this. Um anyway,

fast forward, we moved in with my

father. or I graduated from Myiththica

High School at the age of 16 cuz my dad

said, "Uh, well, I'm going to go on a

sobatic leave and I don't want to take

you with me and so you can graduate

early." Uh, which I did. Went to

Sworthmore College. Uh, took a

philosophy course. I I initially thought

I was going to be a physics major. I

see. So, you really are split between

the aesthetic and the more scientific

engineering. Exactly. Exactly. That's

useful to know. Yeah. And I was and I

was very um I'm not a mathematician but

uh I did very well in mathematics. So

but I I found that um the physics was

frankly too challenging. Uh and and I

took an English course and some other

things and I finally took a philosophy

course with a very brilliant man named

David Lockerman. Um and he's one of

these people that you know anyone who

knew the guy said this is the most

brilliant person they'd ever met. I was

very fortunate to and that was at

Cornell. No, that was at Sworthmore

College when I was undergraduate. Yeah.

Uh and I decid and and so I I so I so I

studied philosophy, history and English.

Uh those were my sort of three big

influences. I got to read a lot of great

literature, Russian lit, Latin American

literature, American literature, studied

history, um in particular African

history, I think, which was quite

interesting. But I fell in love with

Plato, went to graduate school at Penn

State University. Uh, and David Lcherman

came to Penn State then, and that was

great because he was on my dissertation

committee. Um, my main professor there,

I suppose, besides Lochman was a man

named Stanley Rosen, who was a student

of Leo Strauss. Uh, and I studied Greek

and wrote a dissertation on Plato's

political philosophy. Got a job at the

University of Tulsa, which was great for

about three decades. Um I I was the

first chairman or the yeah first

chairman of the of the department of

philosophy and religion. They put these

two departments together and I had

written um a book on plas republic and

and then had published my dissertation

and then decided I really wanted to get

to know my religion colleagues. So I

started studying Kirkagard

um and wrote a book on Kirkagard and

Socrates. Then I also when we got to Tulsa

Tulsa

see I had a had Jewish experiences as a

child. For example, I remember Passover

at my grandfather's house or he'd grab

my hand and take me to a schol when they

he was saying yard site for a relative

which is on on the anniversary of their

death. You say prayers but other than

that I didn't really have any Jewish

identity. Got to Tulsa first thing that

happens and this truly is the buckle of

the Bible

belt. Lady comes from across the street

and says won't you join our church? So

my wife, who's not Jewish, said, 'Well,

and she was unemployed at the time, and

she started going to some classes and

went to listen to a couple of rabbis and

said, 'I think you like this rabbi,

joined the synagogue. I've never been

particularly observant, but started

attending. And I got interested in the

Talmud. And so I started studying Talmud

and there were we were lucky to have

several very high ranking uh Jewish

theologians come through Tulsa. And I

told them, "Wow, you know that Talmud is

really interesting. It's a lot like the

Platonic Dialogues." And I don't know

how much you know about Talmet, but the

thing is, so it so it's it's this

massive corpus. There are two Talmuds.

The main one is the Babylonian Talmud,

two and a half million words. Um the

Jerusalem Talmud is about a million

words, but the Babylonian one's the main

one. And you have this fictional

colloquy. That's the only way to

describe it. Rabbis who maybe lived

centuries apart are brought into debate

and discussion.

Talment privileges questions. Privileges

question. Questions most of the time

there are no answers or at least yeah I

think that's probably fair. Most of the

so so you have debates and you have

discussions and much like the platonic

dialogues the talmud will start with a

practical question. For example you have

two plots of land. One is your vegetable

plot the other is your neighbor's

vegetable plot. his tomato plant leans

over over into your plot. Who gets the

tomato? Then just like Plato starts, you

know, in a dialogue called the Lockis,

Socrates runs into a couple guys.

They're saying, "Should we have our kids

study with this guy with a new fangled

weapon?" And in three pages, they're

talking about what is courage. And the

Talmud, they it can be three pages and

they're talking about why did God create

the universe? So they privilege

questions. They have multiple

intellectual perspectives. the rabbis

are never on the same like they're

they're constantly debating and and

sometimes as in the academy the American

academy you know it gets a little heated

and contentious um so you have these

debates and then except it's not obvious

that the American Academy privileges

questions well that is true now right

right I was really referring to the the

old joke about you know why why are the

why is why is there so much conflict you

know and why is it so heated because the

stakes are so small right but in any

case um and very often at the end of a

sort of section of debate they've got a

little acronym which basically means the

answer will be revealed in the days of

Elijah now the reason I mentioned that

is the belief is of Elijah specifically

right so the idea is that there is an

answer okay we may not be able to

understand it or we haven't achieved it

yet and I say that because in the

Socratic perspective I think there's

also an answer that becomes very clear

in um the apology where Socrates uh you

know has his friend his friend Kyan goes

to the Delphic Oracle says is there

anyone wiser than Socrates and the

oracle says no right and and what's

great here is that Socrates by the way

he makes no argument for this he says it

is not permissible for the god to utter

a falsehood that's his faith right so I

have to take this statement seriously

but I'm not aware that I'm wise dreams

saying, "Yes, dreams don't utter

falsehoods. They're incomprehensible

often, but they never lie." Well, I like

that. That's a lot. But what I want to

say, they're voice of nature, you could

say. Yes, very much so. And of course, I

mean, that that's a whole interesting

subject because also even in Plato, this

question of how do we explain dreams? Is

it a communication from the divine or

something? But in any case, Socrates

says what you mean by the divine as Yes,

indeed. Um Socrates says um that it's

impermissible for a god to utter

falsehood. So he now dedicates his

entire life to answering two questions.

What is wisdom? And who is Socrates? So

his entire philosophical quest comes out

of this uh moment, the shortest

revelation in history, which is no,

right? No, there's no one wiser than

Socrates. Um yeah. And isn't that not

because he knows what he doesn't know?

Well, he knows what he doesn't know, but

he I think I thought he made a statement

to that end like that. Absolutely. Okay.

So, the reason I asked that very

specific well because you said that the

Telmud like Plato's or the Telmud

specifically which are like Plato's

dialogues privilege questions. Now, the

thing about questions is that questions

require they require the recognition of

ignorance and that's a form of humility.

Exactly. Of course, humility is the

opposite of pride. And one of the things

I figured out recently, we we could talk

about maybe this is what we'll talk

about. In fact, mostly um it had never struck

struck

me before this year, weirdly enough, that

that

the the significance of the fact that

the root word of question is quest

because quest is adventure. M and so

I've been trying to figure out what I do

in my lectures because they are popular

and it's strange because I discuss the

sorts of things we're discussing right

now and yet many people come and watch

and so I've been very curious about why

that happens and so I've taken the

process that I use apart and what I do

essentially is

figure out what the question is and it's

an actual question like before I go on

stage to talk for 90 minutes. I have a

question which is part of a set of

questions that I'm pursuing. So, and so

it's a real question. I actually want

the answer. Yes. I use the time on stage

to well to further the quest and the

quest is the answer and that's the

treasure at the end of the pathway. And

then the lecture itself which isn't

exactly a lecture because it's a quest

is an attempt to answer. Now, the reason

I think it's so relevant to privilege

the question is because your thoughts

are structured the same way your

perceptual systems are structured. And

what that means is that when you set the

quest, you set the question, you set the

aim and the here's a here's a thought.

You tell me what you think about this

because this this is a terrifying

thought. I think the spirit of your

aim answers your prayers.

So if you have a

question, you'll

you'll the answer to the question will

make itself manifest in your

consciousness. That's people usually

say, I thought up the answer, which I

think is a terrible answer. That isn't

what happens. What happens is that when

you set the aim, which is the question,

I would like to know this. This is the

direction I'm seeking. Then the thoughts

that make themselves manifest to you

will be in keeping with that aim. And

then you search for the words and you're

are you a vehicle for them? Likely

you're a vehicle for the spirit of your

aim. Well, and that's what's happening

when I'm talking to talking on stage.

It's like I have a question. It's a real

question. Thinking okay. And I there's a

little more to it because I use stories

that I know as investigative tools,

right? So they're like they're tools of

inquiry, but the fundamental thing is

the inquiry, the question. And it's very

interesting to me

that so like one of the things I've

thought about too is that well thought

essentially it's got an it's got a

question element. You set the aim then

it has a revelation element. The ideas

come to you. Then it has a critical

thought element which is like a dialogue

essentially. It's like okay well here's

the question. Here's an answer. But

here's another answer. Okay, so how do

we or and maybe here's another answer.

So how do we sort that out? Well, we

have an internal dialogue which is an

analogy analog of an actual dialogue

you'd have socially. And the consequence

of the dialogue is the that's the

separation of the wheat from the chaff,

you might say, or the Yeah. Yeah. So, so

I've often now I've started to think

about thought itself as secularized prayer.

prayer.

And that makes sense historically if you

think about how thought might have

developed. You you have a question which

is your plea to the gods. Let's say you

await a revelation. Well, then you have

to determine whence comes the revelation

and is it reliable? Especially if

there's many of them or if you're

unclear about your aim. And then the

critical process is something like

internalized dialogue. And so it seems

to me that like I've thought and I I'd

like your opinion on this. Well, was is

it Socrates who taught the Greeks to

think at least to think critically? Like

literally is is he the first man who

determined how to internalize dialogue?

So okay, so that's a bunch of questions.

very possibly the talent. Well, that's

that's right because we don't know when

thought itself emerged, especially

critical thought. Critical thought's hard.

hard.

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[Applause]

you've said a lot. So, yeah, let me

reply to a couple of things here. Um, it

seems to me that you're on a very

fruitful path in talking about this.

While you were speaking, I was thinking

how this shows up in a lot of fields.

So, even for example in great literature

and the example that came to my mind is

Jorge Luis Bourhees. Have you read any

of Jorge Luis Borhees's short stories?

Okay. So it seems to me that this man's

writing is itself

um guided by a fundamental question and

maybe this is true of other great

authors. In fact, I would be willing to

give you some other examples. Borches

question is this. What are the effects

of infinity on human beings? Right?

Because we have stories like finesse the

memorialius the guy falls hits his head

and not only cannot forget anything

and not just from that point I mean he

actually remembers everything but his

experience is as vivid his memories are

as vivid as the moment of experience

itself and so he's completely

overwhelmed and he just lies in the bed

he can't even he lies in the dark um and

then we have for example um uh the

immortal and it's about a guy who is in

North Africa in fighting this is his

earliest memory anyway and fighting in

North Africa in a Roman legion and

accidentally drinks the water of life

the water of immortality and then after

centuries and centuries he he seeks

death and he reasons that there must be

an antidote right there's if there's a

place where you can drink water it makes

you immortal there's got to be some

other spring or something that you can

drink and allow you to die but The

problem is that his life just blends

together. He can't he can't separate

anything out because So is he looking is

burgers looking for the advantages to

finitude? Let's say yes. Exact. Well,

let me put it a different way. He is

what he is suggesting is that we are

creatures of finitude. We are creatures

of finitude in terms of our lifespan. We

are creatures of finitude in terms of

our in of our intelligence, our memory.

Um we are creatures of finitude in terms

of our capacity to understand. So, for

example, there's another um wonderful

story. Um it's about a Mayan priest

during the time of the concistadors and

he's they destroy the civilization. They

throw him in a underground prison and

there are some bars and on the other

side is a jaguar. And he begins to reme

he begins to recall that there's an

ancient myth that um the gods have

inscribed in the world somehow a phrase

that gives you complete omnipotence if

you could utter the phrase. Anyway, and

one day he's watching the jaguar and he

realizes that its spots spell out

somehow this phrase which he then utters

and then his and he's looking for a way

to destroy the concungistadors and

restore Mayan civilization. But now he

sees everything. This great wheel, the

entire universe, he understands

everything and he has no longer any interest

interest

in doing anything because that knowledge

simply like it's complete. It's complete

and it's totally irrelevant what's

happening here on earth or anything like

that. My favorite is the library of

babel which is about this the universe

is a library and the library has you

know hexagonal cells and every cell has

x number of shelves and every shelf has

x number of books of exactly the same

length written in 23 characters or 24

whatever it is certain number of letters

period uh space and it's inhabited by by

librarians and they and they're looking

through these books and they're trying

to find some meaningm Mhm. But there's

it's an infinite library. It's an

infinite library. And by the way, the

mathematicians have done the

calculations on this. Yeah. Right. So,

but so anyway, um and like the most um

uh coherent phrase in any book that any

librarian that this librarian who's

narrating it knows, and he's gone all as

far as he can, is something like, "Oh,

time thy pyramids." Right? So everyone

starts looking for books because they

realize like there's you know I want to

find something that will explain the

meaning of my life or my purpose or

something and then the fundamental um

proposition of the library is formulated

which is that any book that is possible

is actual in the library. In other words

any and you know they can you it's like

a million characters or something. So

any combination of characters exists.

That means that there is a book in this

library that describes exactly this

event. We're sitting here having this

podcast. This is a possible book. it

must exist in this library now. But

there are also weird mathematical

problems because if you think about it,

it can't be the case that any possible

book is actual because you can have

cataloges of cataloges of cataloges so

that it like mathematically it explodes.

But anyway, so my point is what happens

in a universe where finite beings,

finite rational

intellects try

to find some meaning and encounter or

are afflicted by infinity in some way.

Mhm. Um that so just to go back here

that's Bores's idea that is well it's a

fundamental problem right because

obviously we have some relationship with

the infinite yes right it might be a

relationship of negation I mean but

there's no escape from the conundrum

that we're finite in in and faced with

right well and faced with the infinite

indeed but the the point I really wanted

to emphasize in what you were saying is

this become this question becomes a

fertile soil for these literary growths.

You know, in other words, this is the

question that animates his being as a

writer and it's highly highly

productive. So, we all know that

questions are highly productive and

limitations. You see that in the

creativity literature. Exactly. So,

there's there's a great extremely

comical example of that online. So,

haiku is a poetic form that has

ridiculous limitations. Yes. Right. And

you might say, well, why bother with it?

And the answer is, well,

you can't play a game without rules.

That's the answer. Yes. Okay. Now, but

there's a spam haiku archive online. So,

it's only haiku that's only devoted to

the lunch and meat. There's like the

last time I looked at Yeah. It's very

funny. They're very funny. And it's it's

ridic the MIT engineers MIT engineers

made the archive, of course. And so

there's 50,000 haikus there about spam

and but then and it's ridiculous and

it's supposed to be and it's comical.

But the point is that without that

absolutely preposterous set of

limitations that whole universe of

poetic beauty you might say. Yes. And

comic endeavor wouldn't have come into

being. And so it's it's a very strange

thing that there is a genuine

relationship between finitude and

abundance. Yes. Like right. So there's

there's a right balance between

constraint and possibility that produces

abundance. Too much possibility, there's

nothing. That's B's point. And then

too much limitation, there's nothing.

But there's some optimal balance. And

maybe I mean you could, it seems

reasonable to propose that the issue

fundamental issue in human life is how

to get that balance exactly right.

That's really what the Jews, the ancient

Jews were wrestling with when they were

trying to figure out how you have a

relationship with God. You know, modern

people say, "Well, there's no such thing

as God." Well, do you have a

relationship with the infinite or not?

Mhm. You have some relationship. Maybe

it could be a productive one if you

could what? Formulate it properly. Yes.

Well, look, so as you know in the Hebrew

scriptures, God creates human beings.

He's almost immediately disappointed

with Adam and Eve. Um, now they're on

their own. You know, they get their

wish, right? I mean, the serpent says to

them, "Oh no, God knows you will become

as gods." The best interpretation here,

I think, is my monodities, who cites

another rabbi, and he says, "Well, the

word for gods is Elohim, but it can also

mean rulers." So, they actually get what

they wish for because there's no need

for rule in the sense that we understand

it. that is limitation law and so forth

to order chaos in the garden because

you're sort of you're in the presence of

God. Now once you're kicked out now

you've got a problem and the problem of

chaos that's internal to the human soul

immediately asserts itself because Cain

kills Abel. And of course they screw up

so badly. Problem of misaligned aim like

Adam and Eve turn away from the proper

aim like the builders at the Tower of

Babel. And so because they no longer,

this is exactly what happens with the

Israelites when they demand a king, God

basically says to them, well, if you

conducted yourselves properly and

maintained the covenant with the divine,

you wouldn't need a king. We want a

king. And and and see, so after all

these failures and yes, you know, the

flood and the tower of Babylon and

everything. So finally we speed up in

this part of Exodus where the ten

commandments and then the so-called book

of the covenant and you know the rest of

the laws are laid out. This seems to me

to fit exactly what you're saying. God

is limiting these human beings, right?

Like here you are these freed slaves.

Mhm. We got to give you, you know, uh um

uh some sorts of channels in which to

move your desires and stop signs and

restrictions and so forth. And only

within those 613 laws can can you have a

flourishing life. Well, and it's even

it's it's even stranger than that in

some sense because you have first of

all, you have the idea in the Garden of

Eden that if your aim is proper, then

you don't need well to set your own

course, right? Which Eve decides she's

going to do regardless. Once you set

your own course and you're steeped in

sin because your aim is misaligned, you

need rules. Now remember in the Exodus

story, God provides the rules first of

all directly from God and then the

Israelites go astray instantly and then

they get kind of a second rate and you

could argue in a way inferior and more

tyrannical set of rules and that's

because you you could imagine tears of

proper aim and God's hoping that the

Israelites will aim at the

at the highest conceivable and they fail

at that. and he says, "Well, here's

something that's still high and they

fail at that." And he says, "Well, it

looks like you guys are going to have to

settle for this with me hanging around

the fringes around and because that's

all you seem to be able to manage." So,

yes. And I'm very interested in this

idea of misaligned aim. Yes. Because

well, because I think the spirit of your

aim answers your prayers. And so, okay.

So, now you talked about Borges and you

talked about the question and that was

part of a conversation we're having

about questions in general. Yeah. So,

let's go back to the Yeah. So like the

fruitfulness of the question. Yeah.

Exactly. I mean I you know I think this

is absolutely crucial and let me say

that um there is a question that I know

to be absolutely fundamental and I know

it to be fundamental because it shows up

both in the Hebrew Bible and in Plato.

Okay. Uh in Plato it shows up in the

very first sentence of Plato's Fedrris.

And in the Hebrew Bible it shows up when

Hagar runs away from Sarah for the first

time and the angel comes to her in the

wilderness. And the question is where

have you been and where are you going?

Yeah. Right. There's a question. Now for

me this is absolutely fundamental for

individuals, for families, for tribes,

for nations, for societies

and I view it

as an urgent question today. Well, it's

probably the question, it's at least one

variant of the question of identity.

Yes. Right. We're in an identity crisis.

Obviously, we've cascaded into identity

politics. And given your frame here, you

could say, well, the reason for that is

because we don't know where we've been.

Yes. And certainly there's no unified

sense of that, which is a big problem,

and we don't know where we're going. You

could add maybe one other

foundation stone to that, which would be

where have you been, where are you now,

and where you're going. That's a full

narrative really. Right. So, okay. So,

okay. So, let's just focus on these. Why

did that capture your interest

specifically? Well, I mean, first of

all, it seems to me that each part of

that and let's say where are you now?

Okay. This is crucial. No part of it can

be answered without the answers to the

other two. Okay. Right. Yeah. Because um

look, the future is trackless. Where are

we going? Well, our only resource really

is where are we now and where have we

been more fully I would say that and I

this is just my hypothesis but I think

there's a lot to it that there are no

really fruitful growths in the future

that don't come out of the soil of the

past that is to say a a a rich

understanding of the past and we could

do this spoken like a true conservative

well I mean yeah listen but that's the

sort of thing that makes you think in a

conservative direction once you realize

that well this is well and that's a

whole another interesting thing because

the fact is

that and I' I've shared this with a lot

of colleagues and friends I actually

think that part of the hostility to

studying the western tradition

um on the part of those who are you know

antagonistic to the west um comes from

the fact that studying the great books

actually makes you not only

intellectually conservative but in some

ways politically conservative

conservative enough for example to say

that we need to study the western

tradition right well they're all related

well the other the other issue tell me

what you think about this I also think

that you if you think about the Mauists

for example and the fact that for

example the red guards destroyed all the

Chinese statues as far up as you could

reach with a hammer we're going to

obliterate the past and we're going to

build the new man in keeping with our

well there's the question right in

keeping with our what? Revolutionary

presuppositions. Okay. But then you

might you have to say, well, where did

those revolutionary presuppositions come

from? What? They just spring like Athena

out of the head of Zeus? There's no they

have a history, too. Or worse, they have

a spirit. They have a personality. And

this resistance to studying the Western

cannon, let's say, which which is not

even exactly Western when you get down

to it, right? It's much broader than

that. Yes, I think it's a it's a it's

it's not only terror, let's say, that

you'll become more conservative, but

also it's a rebuke to your intellectual

hubris because yes, you can no longer

presume that your

your

selfish power mad whims say are of

sufficient significance to be the

determinants of the future. You have to

subordinate yourself to the tradition.

Yes. And I think Luciferian intellects

dislike that. And you could be even more

cynical than that. You could say that

people who are underpaid in relationship

to their IQ, that would be professors,

are angry enough with their lack of

status to elevate their Luciferian

presumption to the highest point. And

that means they're very interested in

dissociating themselves from the cannon

and making themselves well they do the

same thing Adam and Eve do. It's like

we're going to make our own values.

Yeah. Look, I mean here's another thing

that I mean you mentioned Mao. Now as

you know under Mao uh the little Shinto

shrines and things that people had in

their homes were replaced by pictures of

Mao. They worshiped Mao. Yeah.

Um, and at the same time, Miles Stalin, whoever,

whoever,

uh, you know, these guys had this notion

of a new man. We're going to have a new

man. Yeah. Um, but yeah, new, new, but

but but here's the thing. Actually, it's

all very, very old. Uh, so we were

talking about Exodus, and so let me just

throw this out. I I happen to have just

taught a couple of classes on Exodus. I

filled in for one of our

professors. The way I look at that

book, one main thing that's happening

there is that book of the Bible is

presenting you with the following alternative.

alternative.

Either you enslave yourself to Pharaoh.

Mhm. Or you enslave yourself to God.

Now, no, you can also be lost in the

desert. Well, okay. That's an

alternative. Okay. Right. But that's the

important Those are the three. No, no. I

mean, you're absolutely right. Let's

just imagine that Moses had never

returned and you know they got the calf

whatever. Now that that's not going to

be a very long lasting uh uh

alternative. But but but yes um but what

I want to say here is then the question

is well what well what is Pharaoh? What

does Pharaoh mean? What's Pharaoh?

Pharaoh is a man god by the way aside

from the from the Jews who are trying to

start a Hebrew republic and the Greeks

which are these little islands of

liberty in a sea of desperatism.

Everyone else is man gods. I mean the

Persian, the emperor, the you know

Egyptians etc. Right. Um so that means

that those societies apprehended a p

principle of sovereignty abstracted

beyond the the most powerful man. Yeah.

Right. Right. That's a very

sophisticated view of and and and you

know I mean in for example Escalas's

Persians um which is about the defeat of

Xerxes army in the second Persian war.

Uh, Xerxes can't be held to account

because he's divine. Yeah. Right. Right.

Okay. So, the buck stops there. But

what's interesting about Pharaoh is that

first of all, it is the mo and I not

only the most technically advanced, I

would even call it a technological

civilization. Uh, if you've been to

Egypt as I have, you you you know, you

you see the pyramids, right? And nobody

even knows how these things were made.

There are blocks that are much larger

than this fairly large room we're

sitting in. Uh, you know, they made the

most amazing jewelry ever produced and

we have a bunch of it just because a

bunch of it was shoved in a tiny little

room. The sar, you know, the the burial

site of King Tuton who who knows what

the tomb of Ramsy's had in it. Um, they

these massive granite obelisks and all

this stuff. the entire society was

dedicated to the elevation and the

monumentalization and the memoriz you

know memorialization of the of the

pharaoh. Okay. Um so it's the exaltation

of the man god. Well and and and and so

what pharaoh means today

is the elevation of man to a god. Now we

do this by the way I mean Freud has this

phrase in civilization and it's

discontent about how modern man is a

prosthetic god right like we we equip

ourselves with all these tools and

things like this um so that's a huge

temptation but the suggestion of the

Bible is if you go in that direction

you're going to have um a kind of

totalitarian society and and and to be a

slave this dynamic between potentate and

slave yes exactly But there can be lots

of slaves, right? So for example in in

Persia um the emperor whether it was

Xerxes or Das or Cyrus, everyone else

was known as the king's slave including

the members of his family. So you have

that you can do that but the alternative

then is bowing down to God and being a

slave or if you want to put it a softer

way a servant to God. And the Moses

tells the Pharaoh, right? He says, "Let

my people go." Yes. So they may worship

me in the wilderness. Right? It's not

anarch anarchy. It's not exactly it's

not hedenist. It's not hedonistic

freedom of the sort that the golden calf

worshippers turn to. Right. Right. It is

it's it's what would we call it? Ordered

freedom, I think, is the general phrase.

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So, so if we fast forward again to

middle of the 20th century ideological

tyrannies and this includes fascism obviously

obviously

um you

this is like there's nothing new under

the sun it's a retelling of the feronic

tyranny essentially but right but so the

notion that like that might also be part

of this resistance like you know it is

well I think that's you want to sustain

the illusion that well I think that's

part of the loose the spirit of lucifer

It's like the the radical types who were

trying to produce the new man. They

assume that if they had been Stellin or

Mao the promised utopia would have come

and that is an elevation of the

intellect because one of the so I

interviewed a guy recently unfortunately

I can't remember his name who uh wrote a

book about Marx and Satanism and he

looked at Marx's early writings before

he became political and uh Marx was a

seriously warped individual in virtually

every way you could possibly imagine and

he was definitely a luciferian

intellect. And see, one of the things I

think we've done wrong in our analysis

of, let's say, communism and perhaps

also Nazism, but we'll stick with

communism, is that we assume that the

best way to understand it, to understand

what happened is to do an analysis of

communism. But we don't think what

you're proposing, which is well,

communism that emerged in like 1850,

let's say, something like that.

Was it actually something new? Well,

your point is no, it's not something new

at all as at all. It's really old. It's

the tyrant slave dichotomy. And I do

believe that communism is the most

recent garb that something very ancient

cloaks itself. Oh yes. Yeah. And and in

fact, as you were speaking, it occurred

to me. I mean, so here are a couple of

examples of communism. First of all, we

have book five of Plato's Republic where

the women are and men, you know, are

shared in common, etc. It turns out to

be a highly stratified society where

everyone is miserable essentially unless

you're sort of the top dog. But more

important is Aristophanes play Assembly

Women in which the women take over and

establish a communist society. Now this

is very interesting for reasons that you

may already have gleaned. That is the

evidence shows that women far more than

men in the United States and in Europe

are left especially if they're young.

Far left. Right. Yeah. And it's true in

South Korea. It's true in Japan. It's

true in Australia. So I would suggest

that anyone listening to our discussion

who's interested in this might go back

and look at Aristoph assembly women

where the men are essentially

infantilized. Okay? The women run

everything. The men are infantilized and

it's a communist society. So you you

have all these you know these earlier

things. But one thing I wanted to say

here and I want to mention before I

forget it is that so why why oh sorry go

ahead please well I'm curious because

you said you know you said some

some you made some statements that

illicit questions. So for example you

studied Plato and then you said sort of

casually you joined the synagogue and

you got interested in the Talmud. Oh,

well that's not necessarily expected.

And then you you showed your deepening

understanding of the relationship

between today's political scene and

these very very old stories and are

making a case that the political

situation is better understood in terms

of those old stories what arguably than

any other way. I mean that's kind of

what it looks like to me. It is there is

nothing new under the sun. And if we

lose touch with those ancient stories,

we lose our ability to actually

understand what's going on. Elijah, you

mentioned Elijah. Elijah's foes are the

nature worshippers, right? Well, that's

kind of relevant in today's society

given the rise of nature worship is

something will attain the pinnacle

point. We talked about the man god.

Well, that doesn't look like it works

out very well unless you want to be a

slave and maybe you do. And it's also

we're we're also facing the consequences

of the rise of Gaia worship. Let's say

the rise of nature to the highest place.

And that's you know Elijah's

fundamental realization which makes him

a a star of the Old Testament. He's one

of the two prophets that appear when

Christ is transfigured on the mount.

Right? It's Moses and Elijah. Well, why?

Because Elijah realizes that God is not

to be found in nature. But we have no

idea how cataclysmic a discovery that

was huge. Right. So God isn't a man god

and God isn't in nature. Yes. Okay.

Well, now one response to that is

there's no God. But we kind of end up

with nature or man gods when we take

that route or some nihilistic

catastrophe. Yes. And so then the

question now you talked about Greece and

the ancient Israelites

as constructing up a principle of

divinity or sovereignty that was

separate from a specific embodiment like

a pharaoh or an emperor but also not to

be found in nature. Right. Yes indeed.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. So let me make another

suggestion here. Um, so you mentioned

Markx and what we see in Markx is a um

an an overestimation a serious

overestimation of the power of reason.

Yeah. Yeah. And now reason understood as

a productive and political principle.

Um, and I mean obviously there's a

religious background because it's a

secularization of the Christian story. But

But

I think there there are several elements

here. And and by the way, this goes back

to Plato's Republic as well. We can talk

about that. But okay, the idea is that,

okay, we're going to have a heaven on

earth. We're going to have a paradisical

society where all men are brothers and

so on. And everyone's needs are met,

right? Whatever the hell that means. But

here's the problem. It is going to be

realized by human political productive

action. And the difficulty there is so

so so first of all it's not emerging

organically. Okay. It's a it's a

political constructivism. So the the

best society will not emerge

organically. Uh but it's to be brought

into being by man. Now it's to be

brought into being by man in a

particular time and in a particular

place by particular men, right? By

particular men. When you put those

constraints on it, you drastically limit

the possibilities within that society

because it's got to be producible, it's

got to be sustainable, it's got to fit

the particular parameters, all these

kinds of things. Add on to that the delusion

delusion

that um human beings are not in fact,

let's say, radically local beings who

form the most meaningful bonds in

particular ways, marriage, family, etc.,

But we're universal, right? And finally,

you have this kind of divonization of

man because after all, you know, um

well, if we I mean, we're going to

realize heaven on earth. So, well, and

as you said, we can produce a

centralized authority which falls out of

the presumption just described that's

going to have the computational power

necessary to pull off the task. Exactly.

Which is well, that just just that claim

is preposterous, right? But but I like I

like the way you formulate that because

what what you're pointing out is that

for the system that's proposed to make

itself manifest, it has to meet a series

of increasingly likely constraints. Yes.

Exactly. Increasingly, sorry,

increasingly unlikely constraints.

Right. It has to do this. That's already

hard. Well, you add four more

impossibilities to that. It's like,

well, right. And um where I want to go

with this is that that kind of hubris

about reason

uh is I think well first of all it's a

characteristic of the modern era because

you know you have de cart saying we're

going to be masters and possessors of

nature and if you read the discourse on

method teach you we're going to do form

our own values right right but that's

sort of the end of the whole kind of

decay but if but if we go back to the

early moderns Um he even suggests in the

discourse on method that maybe medicine

will will make all the infirmities of

old age sort of disappear which means

we're not going to die in which case by

the way the religious question uh is

gone like from the I mean Deart's

writing he doesn't want his books to be

placed on the index which they were

nonetheless you know um and so they're

read and they have to be you know the

Roman Catholic Church has to has to has

to look at them um but the fact is that

Roman Catholicism is irrelevant if

you've got if we're not going to die,

right? I mean, in some fundamental

sense, but okay. Well, and whatever a

human being is is something completely

different than whatever it is now. But

now I want to go back to Leo Strauss who

talks about the permanent questions. And

what I've come to understand is the

following that the permanence of the

questions arises from the necessity that

Athens so to speak. And now let's just

take that to mean reason like unaded reason.

reason.

Okay, can't be separated from the

biblical alternative which is the fear

of God is the beginning of wisdom. The

fear of the Lord is the beginning of

wisdom. How did you figure that out?

Well, Strauss writes about this stuff.

He writes about this is not my idea. He

writes about acids in Jerusalem. But

what I'm claiming is this. In order for

reason to function in a healthy way, it

must conduct itself in the light of

Yeah. the alternative of religion, which

is okay. So, so you know, like you can't

understand everything on your own. There

are massive mysteries, right? Um, and

there's this entire alternative way of

thinking about things. So if you if you

simply separate reason from that, you're

going to get totalitarianism and kind of

you know the lunacy that we see

luciferian hubris. If you separate

religion from the alternative that well

man has reason and man is able to figure

things out and there are things that we

can understand about nature and the

world and science that aren't in the

religious tradition, then you're going

to end up with say Islamic extremism or

something. You see what I'm saying? In

other words, a healthy human existence

is to dwell in the space of the

permanent questions which must be

informed by these alternatives. And

Strauss is very good on this. He says

there's no philosophical proof that the

Bible is wrong, right? Like there's

like, you know, you could like you're

always making assumptions

that that are simply going to sort of,

you know, prejudice the conclusions that

you're going to. Yeah. So, so we have to

live in this space. And Strauss's claim

which I really think is great is that

the tension between Athens and Jerusalem

is the coiled spring of the greatness of

the west. That we have to understand

that. But now what I've come to

understand this is a kind of moderation,

right? Like don't because if you say no

reason reasons that anything that's not

rational, you got some kind of

positivism or whatever, you're you're

going to go straight to that man god

thing, right? You're going to go

straight to that totalitarian. Yeah. You

know, the train's going to stop at at

the, you know, at the desk camp.

basically but if you also say oh there's

no re which is one more thing I just

want to say about the my book on plato

on the town but I've already suggested

that socratic philosophizing begins with

this revelation of delelfi which talk

Socrates takes seriously who is Socrates

what is wisdom but he's convinced that

there must be an answer because the god

can't speak falsely the rabbis there's a

great book called rational rabbis by a

guy named manam fish and believe it or

not he talks about the rabbis of the tal

the first 40 pages is about Carl

popper's theory of falsification in

science which is a great humble theory

right it's that we can't prove laws like

the law of gravity we can only falsify

them we can conduct experiments that if

they turn out a certain way will falsify

the you know formulation of the law of

gravity look for new forms of our

ignorance right so then this guy argues

that the the rabbis are rational and

they are in a sense they're playing the

Socratic game of rationality within the

horizon of re of revelation so they

start Well, that's okay. I believe I

think we know enough about both

psychology and neuroscience now to move

that from the domain of philosophical

theory to the domain of established fact

because one of the things that people

who've studied perception and emotion

have come to conclude is that well I

asked Carl Fristen who's the world's

most cited neuroscientist by the way. I

asked him is every object perception a

micro narrative? Oh that's very

interesting. They said, "Yes, for sure."

He said,

"Necessarily." Right? Necessarily.

That's quite the claim because what

we've come to understand is that there's

no object perception independent of

motivational frame. And the description

of a motivational frame is a narrative.

Mhm. Okay. Now, you you made a comment

earlier that well, you need to know

where you've come from and where you're

going. Okay. So, let's What is a

narrative? Well, yeah. There's an aim.

There's a starting place. There's a

voyage. And then you might say, well,

the world's made out of objects. And you

overlay a value laden narrative on top

of it. But then you might say, well,

where's the interface? And so you might

say, well, let's look at how perception

works. What do we see as objects? Well,

we do not see

we do not see what the enlightenment

mind conceptualized as the object when

we see an object. That's not right. what

we see. So what it seems to be the case,

it's very cool. So once you establish an

aim and it and this is in the most

trivial of circumstances, the world

reveals itself to your perception as a

pathway to the aim. Okay? As a set of

obstacles, that's produces negative

emotion. A set of facilitators or tools

that produces positive emotion. And so

and that's with every glance you take

because every glance specifies an aim

for action right because otherwise why

look okay so aim pathway right so that

might be the straight and narrow pathway

uphill for example tools and obstacles

okay positive emotion negative on the

social front friends and foes same thing

almost everything

is defaults to the realm of the

irrelevant right because if I specified

aim, most things are now irrelevant. So

your aim makes most of the world

irrelevant. Some things stand out as

phenomena. That the phenomena that stand

out are tools and obstacles or friends

and foes. There's also, and I just

figured this out this year, there's also

agents of magical transformation in

narratives. They change your aim. So

imagine every aim brings a set of

constraints and rules. So that's like

the metaphysics of the aim, the rules.

But if you switch the aim, the

metaphysics change and that's a magical

shift. And if someone comes along whose

aim is

four stages higher than yours, we'll

say, then they appear truly magical. But

the reason I'm making this case is like

and and and there is I think we are

we're at the end of the enlightenment

and I think it died like Nietze claimed

Christianity died at its own hand

because it turns out that

there is no level at which what we see

are dead objects. Yes. Not at any level

of perception whatsoever. Every object

is actually you cannot dissociate value

from object in perception. It's not

possible. Yeah. In fact, if anything,

it's tilted towards value and not

object. And there's another terrible

plague for the enlightenment types as

well who think the world is a place of

objects. Is that well, there's an

infinite number of objects because Yes.

Well, so then which objects, right?

Right. Which objects? That's a terrible

question because as soon as you say

that, you have to prioritize. Well,

there's no difference between priority

and value. Yes. So another way of

thinking about a narrative when you go

to a movie, you watch the protagonist.

What you are

embodying is your observation of the

protagonist structure of value. You're

incorporating that that you you match

his emotions because you match his aims.

And so when we're storytelling, what

we're doing is we're exchanging

information about the substrata within r

within which rationality has no choice

but to operate. See, cuz so the

metaphysics of the enlightenment were wrong.

wrong.

Rationality is at the base because the

world's made out of objects and you can

calculate your way forward with

valuefree objective knowledge. Like none

of that's right. Yeah. So, so the story

is the thing. Now, you said, well, we

need a story. We need to know where

we've been. Now, that has to have

something to do with why you got

interested in the Telmmet, I would

presume. So you said you saw a

similarity with the dialogues. So but

what else caught your attention? You've

obviously developed extreme familiarity for example with the story of Exodus.

for example with the story of Exodus. Why do you think as a philosopher you

Why do you think as a philosopher you started to presume or understand that

started to presume or understand that these ancient stories

these ancient stories shed light on the world in a way

shed light on the world in a way that philosophical theories abstracted

that philosophical theories abstracted away from narrative don't. What does the

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Well, look, what you just said is very rich and I think uh very very attractive

rich and I think uh very very attractive and interesting. Um so let me start with

and interesting. Um so let me start with a question I guess. Um doesn't this all

a question I guess. Um doesn't this all mean then that

mean then that uh we have to find the proper aim and if

uh we have to find the proper aim and if we find the proper aim then our

we find the proper aim then our questions are going to be helpful and

questions are going to be helpful and productive to us as human beings. So

productive to us as human beings. So let's go back to the very first

let's go back to the very first commandment. I am this is why Christ in

commandment. I am this is why Christ in the sermon on the mount for example

the sermon on the mount for example which is a guide book for revelation

which is a guide book for revelation says okay how do you pray? How do you

says okay how do you pray? How do you orient yourself in the world? Same

orient yourself in the world? Same question. Aim at the highest thing you

question. Aim at the highest thing you can conceptualize. That's number one.

can conceptualize. That's number one. Presume that other people are made in

Presume that other people are made in the image of that highest thing. Okay.

the image of that highest thing. Okay. So now you've set the frame. Got it.

So now you've set the frame. Got it. Exactly. Exactly. Now pay attention.

Exactly. Exactly. Now pay attention. Right. Having done that, pay attention

Right. Having done that, pay attention to the moment because what'll happen is

to the moment because what'll happen is if you specify your aim properly, the

if you specify your aim properly, the path, the proper pathway will appear.

path, the proper pathway will appear. The proper tools will make themselves

The proper tools will make themselves manifest to you. The proper revelations

manifest to you. The proper revelations will come to you. Well, that is how

will come to you. Well, that is how perception and thought work. So, in the

perception and thought work. So, in the the Tower of Babel is a story of

the Tower of Babel is a story of misaligned aim, you know, and it's the

misaligned aim, you know, and it's the engineers who build the tower. Yeah.

engineers who build the tower. Yeah. Right. It's I mean well that's a great

Right. It's I mean well that's a great story too because if you read it

story too because if you read it carefully they say let's bake bricks so

carefully they say let's bake bricks so they bake the bricks and that's

they bake the bricks and that's fascinating because they break it out of

fascinating because they break it out of adam which is the the soil that man has

adam which is the the soil that man has made out of Adam etc right and then they

made out of Adam etc right and then they say let's make a tower now if you this

say let's make a tower now if you this may be over interpreting but first we'll

may be over interpreting but first we'll develop the bricks and then we'll figure

develop the bricks and then we'll figure out what to do with them like the

out what to do with them like the technological thing come it actually

technological thing come it actually reminds me of like the CIA discovers LSD

reminds me of like the CIA discovers LSD they don't discover it but they like we

they don't discover it but they like we got LSD LD. So, now their question is,

got LSD LD. So, now their question is, "What can we do with it? There's a book

"What can we do with it? There's a book about this." And so there's they say,

about this." And so there's they say, "Well, is it a truth serum?" So, they

"Well, is it a truth serum?" So, they give LSD to this CIA guy. No, it's not.

give LSD to this CIA guy. No, it's not. You know, well, maybe it's an anti-truth

You know, well, maybe it's an anti-truth serum. We give it to our agents if

serum. We give it to our agents if they're caught and stuff like that. No,

they're caught and stuff like that. No, it's not. But this kind of reasoning,

it's not. But this kind of reasoning, right? Like, this is potent stuff. This

right? Like, this is potent stuff. This is super potent stuff. What can we do

is super potent stuff. What can we do with it? Right. But but anyway, you're

with it? Right. But but anyway, you're absolutely right about the the

absolutely right about the the misaligned aim. Yeah. Well, and you

misaligned aim. Yeah. Well, and you know, people end up unable to

know, people end up unable to communicate because the aim gets so

communicate because the aim gets so misaligned. Words themselves lose their

misaligned. Words themselves lose their meaning. And that's a reference to

meaning. And that's a reference to exactly what we're describing is that if

exactly what we're describing is that if you if you mess up the underlying

you if you mess up the underlying narrative substrate enough, rationality

narrative substrate enough, rationality becomes impossible partly because words

becomes impossible partly because words don't mean the same thing to this to

don't mean the same thing to this to different people. Well, that's true.

different people. Well, that's true. Right. Well, we can see that now. Yeah.

Right. Well, we can see that now. Yeah. I mean, and so what you said about the

I mean, and so what you said about the sermon on the mount is anticipated by

sermon on the mount is anticipated by God in the very first commandment. I am

God in the very first commandment. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no

the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other gods beside me. Right. Exactly.

other gods beside me. Right. Exactly. Now, what's interesting is that, you

Now, what's interesting is that, you know, it doesn't mean that we don't have

know, it doesn't mean that we don't have subsidiary aims. But what it means is

subsidiary aims. But what it means is that's the highest. That's the highest

that's the highest. That's the highest for Socrates. What is the highest? Well,

for Socrates. What is the highest? Well, he calls these things ideas. You know,

he calls these things ideas. You know, justice for example, and the Socratic uh

justice for example, and the Socratic uh what Socrates is trying to do is a sort

what Socrates is trying to do is a sort of shuttling movement. Okay.

of shuttling movement. Okay. um first of all to come to the his the

um first of all to come to the his the best possible understanding he can of

best possible understanding he can of for example the idea of justice which

for example the idea of justice which plays a huge role in his life but you

plays a huge role in his life but you know the cave image there aren't any

know the cave image there aren't any signs that say you are now leaving the

signs that say you are now leaving the cave and entering into the full light of

cave and entering into the full light of truth right so you're there's always a

truth right so you're there's always a question have I truly understood this

question have I truly understood this thing then the other thing he has to do

thing then the other thing he has to do is to try to live up to the ideas or if

is to try to live up to the ideas or if you want to put it the other way to take

you want to put it the other way to take the idea into his life as a matter of

the idea into his life as a matter of his existence Jacob's latter image

his existence Jacob's latter image Exactly. Exactly. So he's trying to do

Exactly. Exactly. So he's trying to do these things but for him the highest is

these things but for him the highest is frankly I mean you can call it the

frankly I mean you can call it the beautiful as per the symposium. You can

beautiful as per the symposium. You can call it the good as per the republic. Um

call it the good as per the republic. Um but of course the good is analogized to

but of course the good is analogized to the sun and the sun in a way has no form

the sun and the sun in a way has no form or no like if the soul if the mind is

or no like if the soul if the mind is compared to the eye then the mind is

compared to the eye then the mind is destroyed by looking directly at the sun

destroyed by looking directly at the sun or or or or at the good right so so

or or or or at the good right so so that's the connection between Plato and

that's the connection between Plato and the Talmud because because it's that

the Talmud because because it's that upward aim it's this upward aim now so

upward aim it's this upward aim now so if you have that so would would it be

if you have that so would would it be fair to say that Plato would Plato

fair to say that Plato would Plato consider the highest good as the

consider the highest good as the whatever Whatever the commonality is

whatever Whatever the commonality is between the true, the good and the

between the true, the good and the beautiful, let's say, because yeah, I

beautiful, let's say, because yeah, I mean I think you know he moves back and

mean I think you know he moves back and like yes he he he gives different

like yes he he he gives different perspectives on that right so we have

perspectives on that right so we have the beautiful in the symposium we have

the beautiful in the symposium we have the good obviously the true is

the good obviously the true is absolutely fundamental um but one thing

absolutely fundamental um but one thing I want to say is you know you mentioned

I want to say is you know you mentioned earlier attention

earlier attention and I'm I am I am convinced I've heard

and I'm I am I am convinced I've heard several people say this or read it That

several people say this or read it That attention, proper attention is an act of

attention, proper attention is an act of worship. Yeah. Right. And so that's a

worship. Yeah. Right. And so that's a definition of worship actually.

definition of worship actually. Because you pay

Because you pay worship the act of worship

worship the act of worship is it's indistinguishable from paying

is it's indistinguishable from paying attention. Yes. Because what you're

attention. Yes. Because what you're doing when you attend is you're

doing when you attend is you're prioritizing the objects of attention.

prioritizing the objects of attention. Exactly. To worship is to prioritize.

Exactly. To worship is to prioritize. Right. And so this is this is what's so

Right. And so this is this is what's so stunning about these sequence let's say

stunning about these sequence let's say of discoveries in neuroscience. It's

of discoveries in neuroscience. It's like oh I see every glance

like oh I see every glance whether you know it or not is an act of

whether you know it or not is an act of worship. Now the question comes up.

worship. Now the question comes up. That's very interesting. I see where

That's very interesting. I see where you're going with that. It's like oh

you're going with that. It's like oh what are you worshiping? Well nothing.

what are you worshiping? Well nothing. It's like well then your eyes are closed

It's like well then your eyes are closed and you're asleep. It's like no there's

and you're asleep. It's like no there's no escape from this. There is no escape.

no escape from this. There is no escape. Yeah. I I just uh ran a a class for some

Yeah. I I just uh ran a a class for some applicants to u to my university uh and

applicants to u to my university uh and we we were discussing uh David Foster

we we were discussing uh David Foster Wallace's this is water u Kenyon

Wallace's this is water u Kenyon graduation speech. I don't know if you

graduation speech. I don't know if you know this but anyway it's great and and

know this but anyway it's great and and at some point there he says you

at some point there he says you know that we everybody worships

know that we everybody worships something right and and that in fact and

something right and and that in fact and he makes this case he says it you know

he makes this case he says it you know whether it's Jesus Christ whether it's

whether it's Jesus Christ whether it's Yahweh whether it's some extreme you

Yahweh whether it's some extreme you know you know the good something like

know you know the good something like this if you aren't if you don't bow down

this if you aren't if you don't bow down to those highest things then your life

to those highest things then your life is is going to be miserable well you can

is is going to be miserable well you can be pagan and a polytheist and you could

be pagan and a polytheist and you could be a worshipper of your own whims. This

be a worshipper of your own whims. This is another thing I've been trying to

is another thing I've been trying to take apart particularly in the last

take apart particularly in the last couple of years. It's like especially

couple of years. It's like especially because I started to understand more

because I started to understand more deeply the golden calf story. It's like

deeply the golden calf story. It's like well I don't worship anything. Okay.

well I don't worship anything. Okay. Well, let's take that apart. Okay.

Well, let's take that apart. Okay. Because it's about me. Yes. Well, or it

Because it's about me. Yes. Well, or it could be about nothing because you could

could be about nothing because you could be nihilistic but then you're like

be nihilistic but then you're like suicidal and dead if you take that or

suicidal and dead if you take that or worse if you take that pathway. Okay.

worse if you take that pathway. Okay. So, let's say there's nothing

So, let's say there's nothing superordinate to you. Okay. But then,

superordinate to you. Okay. But then, but then an ugly question comes up. It's

but then an ugly question comes up. It's like, well, what do you mean by you? Do

like, well, what do you mean by you? Do you mean the higher you that's in

you mean the higher you that's in service to your wife and your family for

service to your wife and your family for the long run, or do you mean the you

the long run, or do you mean the you that's at the strip club with like a

that's at the strip club with like a Jack Daniels in your hand? Golden calf.

Jack Daniels in your hand? Golden calf. Right. Exactly that. And then and then

Right. Exactly that. And then and then and if the if the you that you are

and if the if the you that you are prioritizing is what you want, what

prioritizing is what you want, what you're actually saying is that the

you're actually saying is that the momentary whims that sees you Yes. are

momentary whims that sees you Yes. are your God. Exactly. Well, and then you

your God. Exactly. Well, and then you might you could easily ask and should.

might you could easily ask and should. It's like what makes you think that

It's like what makes you think that those whims Why is it self-evident to

those whims Why is it self-evident to you that you're identical with your

you that you're identical with your whims? That just means you're possessed

whims? That just means you're possessed by something low. Yes. so completely

by something low. Yes. so completely that you don't even know that you're

that you don't even know that you're possessed. Like yes, once you start to

possessed. Like yes, once you start to open up the the question of what is the

open up the the question of what is the you that you're serving if you're

you that you're serving if you're selfish, let's say, it's it's because

selfish, let's say, it's it's because it's not it's not self-evident that you

it's not it's not self-evident that you are your selfish aims. Indeed.

are your selfish aims. Indeed. Especially because they change. So

Especially because they change. So there's no escape from the pro the

there's no escape from the pro the problem of prioritization. Right. Right.

problem of prioritization. Right. Right. So, so, so, so, so if you have the

So, so, so, so, so if you have the proper goal, and let's just, I mean,

proper goal, and let's just, I mean, let's not try to define that, but let's

let's not try to define that, but let's say it's it's transcendent. It's it's

say it's it's transcendent. It's it's it's it's whatever's at the top of

it's it's whatever's at the top of Jacob's ladder, right? That's a great

Jacob's ladder, right? That's a great way to put it. It's a lovely way of

way to put it. It's a lovely way of putting it. Yeah. Because you climb up

putting it. Yeah. Because you climb up and it keeps receding. Yes. That's good.

and it keeps receding. Yes. That's good. Sailor Ve. So then then you you can you

Sailor Ve. So then then you you can you can your attention can be rightly

can your attention can be rightly focused and the questions are the right

focused and the questions are the right ones. That's the important thing. Yeah.

ones. That's the important thing. Yeah. And we go back to your earlier statement

And we go back to your earlier statement about quest. The questions are the right

about quest. The questions are the right ones. Um and and that becomes very

ones. Um and and that becomes very exciting because okay why why does it

exciting because okay why why does it become that's that's a very trenchant

become that's that's a very trenchant observation because I mentioned earlier

observation because I mentioned earlier that

that there's people think that the purpose of

there's people think that the purpose of their life is happiness but it's not

their life is happiness but it's not that's shallow. It is indeed not. So

that's shallow. It is indeed not. So then I think well maybe the purpose of

then I think well maybe the purpose of your life is adventure and that's

your life is adventure and that's different than happiness by a lot. Well

different than happiness by a lot. Well and where's that to be found? Well an

and where's that to be found? Well an adventure is a quest and the quest is to

adventure is a quest and the quest is to be found in the questions. Now you just

be found in the questions. Now you just said you get the questions right and

said you get the questions right and that's very exciting. Yes. Okay. So

that's very exciting. Yes. Okay. So well the first question would be why is

well the first question would be why is it exciting? Why is it exciting to get

it exciting? Why is it exciting to get the questions right and what does the

the questions right and what does the fact that it's exciting signify even

fact that it's exciting signify even neurologically let's say because that

neurologically let's say because that excitement signifies the discovery of

excitement signifies the discovery of something of import. Yes. Okay. So why

something of import. Yes. Okay. So why is a question why is the right question

is a question why is the right question exciting? Well, I can speak to that from

exciting? Well, I can speak to that from the perspective of a scholar, a reader,

the perspective of a scholar, a reader, a thinker, uh, if you have a book in

a thinker, uh, if you have a book in front of you, um, and you're trying to

front of you, um, and you're trying to make sense of it, we all know this, a

make sense of it, we all know this, a question, a good question can reveal

question, a good question can reveal depths of meaning and understanding. um

depths of meaning and understanding. um in in everyday

in in everyday life to to to come to understand what

life to to to come to understand what the question really is can reorient you

the question really is can reorient you and can again reveal I'll just use the

and can again reveal I'll just use the same phrase depths of meaning in your

same phrase depths of meaning in your own existence that you simply weren't

own existence that you simply weren't attending to. Right. So the question

attending to. Right. So the question Moses is on a quest when he encounters

Moses is on a quest when he encounters the burning bush. Yes. Right. And depths

the burning bush. Yes. Right. And depths of meaning are revealed to him as a

of meaning are revealed to him as a consequence of his pursuit. Exactly.

consequence of his pursuit. Exactly. Right. That's what transforms him into a

Right. That's what transforms him into a leader. Right. It's a question that

leader. Right. It's a question that takes him off the beaten path. It might

takes him off the beaten path. It might be what is beyond well adapted shepherd.

be what is beyond well adapted shepherd. Let's say

Let's say right beyond the wilderness. Right.

right beyond the wilderness. Right. Yeah. Exactly. And this Well, and so

Yeah. Exactly. And this Well, and so this relates to Socrates saying, you

this relates to Socrates saying, you know, wonder is the beginning of

know, wonder is the beginning of philosophy. There's a there's a

philosophy. There's a there's a um so let's go back. I agree. Happiness

um so let's go back. I agree. Happiness not only is not the proper aim. Uh in

not only is not the proper aim. Uh in Vosi Gman's wonderful book life and fate

Vosi Gman's wonderful book life and fate there's a little chapter where this guy

there's a little chapter where this guy has written a little letter in in in the

has written a little letter in in in the goolog and he says something like h

goolog and he says something like h happiness with a capital H has been the

happiness with a capital H has been the cause of the greatest evil in the world.

cause of the greatest evil in the world. And I think this is right and you read

And I think this is right and you read it elsewhere. You read it in the desam's

it elsewhere. You read it in the desam's book hope against hope. In the name of

book hope against hope. In the name of happiness, the greatest evil was

happiness, the greatest evil was committed. Well, and Soulja Nitsson

committed. Well, and Soulja Nitsson points out happiness disappears with the

points out happiness disappears with the first blow of the jailer's trenchon on

first blow of the jailer's trenchon on your apartment door at 2 in the morning.

your apartment door at 2 in the morning. Indeed, it's like if happiness is the

Indeed, it's like if happiness is the purpose as soon as you're not happy,

purpose as soon as you're not happy, which is going to happen. You're lost.

which is going to happen. You're lost. Right. Right. Right. So, I imagine you

Right. Right. Right. So, I imagine you would agree with this, but I propose

would agree with this, but I propose that what is far more important is

that what is far more important is meaning. And meaning

is the deepest and richest things are the most meaningful and the highest

the most meaningful and the highest things. And that's a definition again.

things. And that's a definition again. Yeah, I think that's that's right. You

Yeah, I think that's that's right. You can find what's inexhaustible. That's

can find what's inexhaustible. That's like the well that will never run dry.

like the well that will never run dry. Inexhaustible. And so in human life, I

Inexhaustible. And so in human life, I mean, that's why Christ is the

mean, that's why Christ is the miraculous provider of fish and and

miraculous provider of fish and and water, right? Because it's there's an

water, right? Because it's there's an orientation. There's an orientation that

orientation. There's an orientation that makes that has that provides limitless

makes that has that provides limitless abundance. That's the reason. Yeah. And

abundance. That's the reason. Yeah. And so and and the the quest for meaning can

so and and the the quest for meaning can take many forms. So for example, in we

take many forms. So for example, in we we're having our students read um Marco

we're having our students read um Marco Polo.

Polo. Very interesting. So Marco Polo uh his

Very interesting. So Marco Polo uh his uncle and his father actually journeyied

uncle and his father actually journeyied to see Kubla Khan before Marco Polo ever

to see Kubla Khan before Marco Polo ever did. Incredibly arduous and dangerous

did. Incredibly arduous and dangerous journey from Italy to

journey from Italy to Mongolia and they go all the way out

Mongolia and they go all the way out there

there and they get to the Khan who's not going

and they get to the Khan who's not going anywhere by the way, but the Khan turns

anywhere by the way, but the Khan turns out to be a brilliant guy and he also

out to be a brilliant guy and he also wants to learn about the world. Um, so

wants to learn about the world. Um, so this is the spirit of adventure you were

this is the spirit of adventure you were talking about. They go there. By the

talking about. They go there. By the way, the Khan says to them, "Oh, this

way, the Khan says to them, "Oh, this Catholicism you talk about, it's very

Catholicism you talk about, it's very interesting. go back, talk to the pope,

interesting. go back, talk to the pope, get some bishops, bring them back to see

get some bishops, bring them back to see me, and if I like what they say, we'll

me, and if I like what they say, we'll all convert to Catholicism. It's very

all convert to Catholicism. It's very interesting. So, we have these two

interesting. So, we have these two people who are explorers, right? And

people who are explorers, right? And they're finding meaning. And in the

they're finding meaning. And in the story of Marco Polo, you know, he's just

story of Marco Polo, you know, he's just utterly fascinated by this completely

utterly fascinated by this completely different world. He's he's it's just

different world. He's he's it's just this it's so fulfilling for him to see

this it's so fulfilling for him to see these things. Um, okay. So, we have that

these things. Um, okay. So, we have that kind of example. Um that's one version.

kind of example. Um that's one version. Now intellectually you know think of the

Now intellectually you know think of the great books, think of the Bible, think

great books, think of the Bible, think of Shakespeare, depths beyond depths.

of Shakespeare, depths beyond depths. You ask the right question, you find

You ask the right question, you find these things. But then also just in

these things. But then also just in everyday life. I mean one of the good

everyday life. I mean one of the good things about getting older is realizing

things about getting older is realizing the futility of so much that is esteemed

the futility of so much that is esteemed and so many things that I myself chased

and so many things that I myself chased and and then to begin to realize that

and and then to begin to realize that you know the love of one's spouse of

you know the love of one's spouse of one's children the opportunity to help

one's children the opportunity to help them.

them. You know,

You know, um, let let's say sure people want

um, let let's say sure people want esteem, they but to be esteemed by

esteem, they but to be esteemed by people that in your estimation are truly

people that in your estimation are truly worthy, you get the fans you deserve.

worthy, you get the fans you deserve. Yeah. And I mean I mean just like you

Yeah. And I mean I mean just like you know when when God when God offers

know when when God when God offers Abraham so God offers Abraham an

Abraham so God offers Abraham an adventure as the covenant, right? And he

adventure as the covenant, right? And he says he says that one of the

says he says that one of the consequences he says if you accept this

consequences he says if you accept this uh mission this mission impossible

uh mission this mission impossible you'll be a blessing to yourself. Well

you'll be a blessing to yourself. Well that's a good deal. Yeah. Right. You'll

that's a good deal. Yeah. Right. You'll be esteemed for valid reasons. Right. So

be esteemed for valid reasons. Right. So so the esteem like there's almost

so the esteem like there's almost nothing that people will chase more than

nothing that people will chase more than attention from others. And there's a

attention from others. And there's a very positive aspect of that. But so

very positive aspect of that. But so that's not going anywhere. But then you

that's not going anywhere. But then you might say, well, are you esteemed

might say, well, are you esteemed because you're an actor, because you're

because you're an actor, because you're a phony, or are you esteemed

a phony, or are you esteemed because the pattern of your life brings

because the pattern of your life brings abundance to everyone, which is also

abundance to everyone, which is also another offering to Abraham, right?

another offering to Abraham, right? You'll

You'll establish to yourself if you have an

establish to yourself if you have an adventurous life. You'll be esteemed for

adventurous life. You'll be esteemed for valid reasons. You'll establish

valid reasons. You'll establish something of incalculable permanence.

something of incalculable permanence. And you'll do this in a way that will

And you'll do this in a way that will bring abundance to everyone. Mh. That's

bring abundance to everyone. Mh. That's a hell of an offer, man. Now, now you

a hell of an offer, man. Now, now you know what's so interesting about this to

know what's so interesting about this to to pick up a couple of themes that we

to pick up a couple of themes that we mentioned earlier. You talked about

mentioned earlier. You talked about humility, somebody like Abraham and and

humility, somebody like Abraham and and this is the trick and we see it in

this is the trick and we see it in Socrates. We see it in Abraham. We see

Socrates. We see it in Abraham. We see it in all the greats is confidence. How

it in all the greats is confidence. How do these two things go together? That is

do these two things go together? That is to

to say, what do I mean by Socrates

say, what do I mean by Socrates confidence? Okay, I don't have

confidence? Okay, I don't have knowledge. I have some to the best of my

knowledge. I have some to the best of my ability justified beliefs that I take to

ability justified beliefs that I take to heart. You know, for example, the soul

heart. You know, for example, the soul is more important than the body. Justice

is more important than the body. Justice is more important than everything else.

is more important than everything else. You know, um, but at the same time,

You know, um, but at the same time, humility. Now, the humility, that's an

humility. Now, the humility, that's an easy thing to have faith in if you're

easy thing to have faith in if you're honest because your ignorance is

honest because your ignorance is boundless. Your ignorance is boundless.

boundless. Your ignorance is boundless. And and that's sort of that's truly

And and that's sort of that's truly something self-evident. I don't know

something self-evident. I don't know enough. It's like Yeah. Yep. You can you

enough. It's like Yeah. Yep. You can you can go to on that. Yeah. And that's

can go to on that. Yeah. And that's Socrates that and that drives the

Socrates that and that drives the question. And the beautiful thing about

question. And the beautiful thing about humility to go it's it's connected with

humility to go it's it's connected with wonder because the unhumbled don't

wonder because the unhumbled don't wonder.

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health. They're also afraid of wonder. Like

They're also afraid of wonder. Like they're afraid that they're afraid that

they're afraid that they're afraid that wonder will be that sword that bars the

wonder will be that sword that bars the path to paradise that cuts every which

path to paradise that cuts every which way and burns because you you have to

way and burns because you you have to substitute wonder for certainty. And if

substitute wonder for certainty. And if you've staked your soul on your

you've staked your soul on your certainty, then wonder is your enemy and

certainty, then wonder is your enemy and you will pursue it. Yeah. Exactly. And

you will pursue it. Yeah. Exactly. And now look out. Now we're getting down to

now look out. Now we're getting down to a deeper thing because um wonder, you

a deeper thing because um wonder, you know, when you wonder, you enter into

know, when you wonder, you enter into what Socrates calls aporeia. And the

what Socrates calls aporeia. And the Greek word literally means no way out.

Greek word literally means no way out. It's like you're you're stuck. Um maybe

It's like you're you're stuck. Um maybe that's not the right way to put it.

that's not the right way to put it. Let's say this. You know that the more

Let's say this. You know that the more you think and the more you ponder

you think and the more you ponder possibilities and the more you know you

possibilities and the more you know you don't know, you feel like you're on this

don't know, you feel like you're on this sea. I mean, it can it can do it can

sea. I mean, it can it can do it can really be overwhelming. Okay. There's

really be overwhelming. Okay. There's got to be a prior assumption that makes

got to be a prior assumption that makes wonder worthwhile. That that that that

wonder worthwhile. That that that that that that that allows you to feel that

that that that allows you to feel that you're going to remain afloat on the

you're going to remain afloat on the sea. That's Job's conclusion, I think,

sea. That's Job's conclusion, I think, cuz Job ends up a drift in the and

cuz Job ends up a drift in the and barren in the most dismal way possible.

barren in the most dismal way possible. And he makes he he proclaims two axioms

And he makes he he proclaims two axioms that he won't abandon. One is that

that he won't abandon. One is that despite the evidence, he's fundamentally

despite the evidence, he's fundamentally valuable despite the EV. Okay. So, he's

valuable despite the EV. Okay. So, he's not going to lose faith in the essential

not going to lose faith in the essential goodness of being a man. Yes. Especially

goodness of being a man. Yes. Especially if you're one that's trying to aim up.

if you're one that's trying to aim up. Yes. Right. So, he's not going to

Yes. Right. So, he's not going to abandon that. And he's going to make the

abandon that. And he's going to make the presumption that the spirit that gave

presumption that the spirit that gave rise to all things is good even if he

rise to all things is good even if he can't see how. So those are those are

can't see how. So those are those are the two you've anticipated me exactly.

the two you've anticipated me exactly. Let's go with that good thing especially

Let's go with that good thing especially that that the world is good that that

that that the world is good that that reality is good. And what do we now we

reality is good. And what do we now we can even say what do we mean by good?

can even say what do we mean by good? Well, there is some kind of sustaining

Well, there is some kind of sustaining structure, let's say. And the reason I

structure, let's say. And the reason I put it that way, like in other words,

put it that way, like in other words, intelligibility. Yeah. But but more than

intelligibility. Yeah. But but more than that. Yeah, probably more than that. But

that. Yeah, probably more than that. But let's let's take intelligibility just

let's let's take intelligibility just just for a second here. Um, one of my

just for a second here. Um, one of my favorite books, which I'm now listening

favorite books, which I'm now listening to, I read it 30 years ago, is The

to, I read it 30 years ago, is The Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard

Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodess. And what's so great about this

Rhodess. And what's so great about this book is, I mean, it has many wonderful

book is, I mean, it has many wonderful features. It's a great work of history.

features. It's a great work of history. It's a great work of sort of explaining

It's a great work of sort of explaining physics to educated amateurs. But what

physics to educated amateurs. But what it focuses on is theoretical physics in

it focuses on is theoretical physics in the first half of the 20th century which

the first half of the 20th century which was an almost an academic paradise. You

was an almost an academic paradise. You had all these great physicists and

had all these great physicists and they're working together and they're

they're working together and they're discovering things like so they have the

discovering things like so they have the atomic theory at the beginning of the

atomic theory at the beginning of the 20th century. An atom this uncutable

20th century. An atom this uncutable thing from the Greek it's can't be cut

thing from the Greek it's can't be cut and they don't even know they don't know

and they don't even know they don't know anything about it, right? And so now

anything about it, right? And so now they're discovering the nucleus and

they're discovering the nucleus and electrons and protons and neutrons and

electrons and protons and neutrons and all this kind of thing and they're just

all this kind of thing and they're just going around you know I mean the reason

going around you know I mean the reason I say it's an academic paradise is you

I say it's an academic paradise is you go to Cambridge and they say oh go to go

go to Cambridge and they say oh go to go to see Rutherford at you know this other

to see Rutherford at you know this other place and you go there Neils Boore has

place and you go there Neils Boore has the and so they're all collaborating but

the and so they're all collaborating but they're convinced that there's a there

they're convinced that there's a there there right and they're convinced that

there right and they're convinced that and that their quest is worthwhile that

and that their quest is worthwhile that their quest is worthwhile and then of

their quest is worthwhile and then of course all of a sudden it's driven into

course all of a sudden it's driven into overdrive because now we're in the war

overdrive because now we're in the war and now there's there's possible

and now there's there's possible application but you know that there so

application but you know that there so there's this kind of faith there is

there's this kind of faith there is there's well you know I talked to

there's well you know I talked to Richard Dawkins about that I said what

Richard Dawkins about that I said what because he's an enlightenment mind let's

because he's an enlightenment mind let's say I said well you bring to the

say I said well you bring to the scientific endeavor a set of axiomatic

scientific endeavor a set of axiomatic presumptions one is the world could be

presumptions one is the world could be understood the second is that trying to

understood the second is that trying to understand it is good and will bring

understand it is good and will bring good like those aren't scientific ific

good like those aren't scientific ific theories. Those are starting points for

theories. Those are starting points for being a scientist. And so then the

being a scientist. And so then the question is, well, what's the validity?

question is, well, what's the validity? Like how do you ground that metaphysics

Like how do you ground that metaphysics that gets science itself off to a start?

that gets science itself off to a start? Well, you're you're well, I mean, look,

Well, you're you're well, I mean, look, in the in the case of in the case of the

in the in the case of in the case of the uh the harnessing of nuclear energy, you

uh the harnessing of nuclear energy, you have um let us say a proof of concept,

have um let us say a proof of concept, right? That is to say, this is to me

right? That is to say, this is to me probably the most dramatic and um

probably the most dramatic and um persuasive indication that science has

persuasive indication that science has the capacity to know something

the capacity to know something fundamental about reality. Okay. Um so,

fundamental about reality. Okay. Um so, so yeah, you you

so yeah, you you know I mean their faith paid off in this

know I mean their faith paid off in this instance. uh and but I think this is

instance. uh and but I think this is really really important because if you

really really important because if you don't start with the notion that you

don't start with the notion that you know there is a reality and the reality

know there is a reality and the reality is good that it has some kind of

is good that it has some kind of intelligibility etc. Oh, but actually

intelligibility etc. Oh, but actually now I'm interrupting myself. Let me just

now I'm interrupting myself. Let me just say this. Neils Boore, here here's the

say this. Neils Boore, here here's the humility. Neils Boore was like the man.

humility. Neils Boore was like the man. Incredible physicist. He never spoke of

Incredible physicist. He never spoke of the laws of nature. Never spoke of them

the laws of nature. Never spoke of them because he was humble. And people use

because he was humble. And people use the word laws of nature. But the fact is

the word laws of nature. But the fact is there's no proof that these are laws. I

there's no proof that these are laws. I mean, first of all, our horizon is tiny.

mean, first of all, our horizon is tiny. Are are the same laws 10 billion lighty

Are are the same laws 10 billion lighty years away? You know, whatever. Okay.

years away? You know, whatever. Okay. But second he spoke about regularities

But second he spoke about regularities of phenomena right so here we have

of phenomena right so here we have someone who's genuinely

someone who's genuinely understanding you know nuclear physics

understanding you know nuclear physics which I mean we're talking about you

which I mean we're talking about you know 10 the minus 23rd or something just

know 10 the minus 23rd or something just like stuff that you can't see these

like stuff that you can't see these things you can see the effects of them

things you can see the effects of them and so forth

and so forth um and so he's making advances but he

um and so he's making advances but he has this humility so um but anyway is

has this humility so um but anyway is that also humility, you know, because

that also humility, you know, because there's another metaphysical aspect to

there's another metaphysical aspect to this too, which which is extraordinarily

this too, which which is extraordinarily I learned this from Carl Jung mostly, I

I learned this from Carl Jung mostly, I think, at least initially, which was

think, at least initially, which was well, what spirit seizes the scientist's

well, what spirit seizes the scientist's curiosity? It's like, so let's say the

curiosity? It's like, so let's say the world's intelligible. The pursuit of

world's intelligible. The pursuit of that intelligibility is possible and

that intelligibility is possible and good and could bring benefit. But then

good and could bring benefit. But then that begs a question. The question is

that begs a question. The question is well does that depend on the orientation

well does that depend on the orientation of the scientist? So like I read a book

of the scientist? So like I read a book at one point that was written by an XKGB

at one point that was written by an XKGB officer and he made the claim that there

officer and he made the claim that there were labs in the Soviet Union in the 80s

were labs in the Soviet Union in the 80s I think in the 80s where they were

I think in the 80s where they were trying to hybridize Ebola and smile

trying to hybridize Ebola and smile smallpox and aerosolize it. Oh how

smallpox and aerosolize it. Oh how lovely. Well, that's a perfectly

lovely. Well, that's a perfectly reasonable scientific question, right?

reasonable scientific question, right? Can that be done? If you live in a world

Can that be done? If you live in a world of valueless objects, that's just as

of valueless objects, that's just as good a question as any other. And you

good a question as any other. And you could even imagine spin-off benefits

could even imagine spin-off benefits from it. But you might say, well, isn't

from it. But you might say, well, isn't there a better question you could ask?

there a better question you could ask? So then you might say, and this is a

So then you might say, and this is a weird thing too, that the goodness of

weird thing too, that the goodness of the world is predicated on the aim of

the world is predicated on the aim of the investigator. Yeah, the the

the investigator. Yeah, the the alchemists kind of knew that. I got very

alchemists kind of knew that. I got very interested in Yung's analyst analysis of

interested in Yung's analyst analysis of alchemy because the alchemists, the

alchemy because the alchemists, the pre-chemists insisted that the aim of

pre-chemists insisted that the aim of the investigator had to be pure. Yeah.

the investigator had to be pure. Yeah. Right. And so they were they were

Right. And so they were they were beginning to understand that the secrets

beginning to understand that the secrets that matter revealed were dependent on

that matter revealed were dependent on the investigative tools that were put to

the investigative tools that were put to play in the investigation. And that was

play in the investigation. And that was actually a moral endeavor, you know. So

actually a moral endeavor, you know. So are you actually trying to aim up? Yes.

are you actually trying to aim up? Yes. Right. Right. So, so we're looking at

Right. Right. So, so we're looking at the substrate of science, right? Saying,

the substrate of science, right? Saying, well, it's there are there are values

well, it's there are there are values that have to be held for the scientific

that have to be held for the scientific enterprise itself to emerge, to proceed,

enterprise itself to emerge, to proceed, and to be beneficial. And now and now

and to be beneficial. And now and now we're getting down to some really

we're getting down to some really fundamental questions. Um, and so I'm

fundamental questions. Um, and so I'm going to take a little shift here.

going to take a little shift here. Douglas Murray's book, The War on the

Douglas Murray's book, The War on the West, he's got this wonderful passage

West, he's got this wonderful passage where he says, "You can stand in front

where he says, "You can stand in front of a painting and you can look at it and

of a painting and you can look at it and you can say, hm,

you can say, hm, um this peculiar blue pigment, was that

um this peculiar blue pigment, was that sourced from um some country that was in

sourced from um some country that was in poverty? Uh was the apprentice who

poverty? Uh was the apprentice who stretched the canvas paid? Are the

stretched the canvas paid? Are the fibers did they get?" So you can, in

fibers did they get?" So you can, in other words, you can you can to use a

other words, you can you can to use a this isn't quite the right word, like

this isn't quite the right word, like deconstruct In other words, in other

deconstruct In other words, in other words, close enough. Yeah. You can you

words, close enough. Yeah. You can you you can and and what I realized in

you can and and what I realized in reading that passage is there's no end

reading that passage is there's no end to it. I mean, I can look and say, "Now,

to it. I mean, I can look and say, "Now, you know, you're wearing this suit, Dr.

you know, you're wearing this suit, Dr. Peterson. Um, you know, where it doesn't

Peterson. Um, you know, where it doesn't anything can be taken apart this way."

anything can be taken apart this way." Or blood soaks everything. Yes. Right.

Or blood soaks everything. Yes. Right. So, if you look enough, you'll find a

So, if you look enough, you'll find a problem. You'll find a problem. Or

problem. You'll find a problem. Or Douglas Murray says, you can rejoice in

Douglas Murray says, you can rejoice in the picture that Raphael has painted of

the picture that Raphael has painted of the Virgin ascending to heaven. M and

the Virgin ascending to heaven. M and what I realized in thinking about that

what I realized in thinking about that is here's the really fundamental premise

is here's the really fundamental premise or or the like what distinguishes these

or or the like what distinguishes these two approaches and I think it is the

two approaches and I think it is the view that the world is good or not. In

view that the world is good or not. In other words, if you start from that and

other words, if you start from that and say there's goodness here,

say there's goodness here, then you're going to look for the

then you're going to look for the goodness and there's beauty and there's

goodness and there's beauty and there's truth. You're going to look for that.

truth. You're going to look for that. Mhm. And you you may also find it. And

Mhm. And you you may also find it. And you may find it. And if you don't, then

you may find it. And if you don't, then everything follows from that. And I've

everything follows from that. And I've been thinking about this a lot. Be

been thinking about this a lot. Be pretty weird. Pretty weird if it turned

pretty weird. Pretty weird if it turned out that the world was constituted so

out that the world was constituted so that you find what you're looking for.

that you find what you're looking for. Seriously, like that. And I kind of

Seriously, like that. And I kind of think there's there's some truth in

think there's there's some truth in that. Well, yes, indeed. And if you're

that. Well, yes, indeed. And if you're not looking for it, you're not going to

not looking for it, you're not going to find it. But to me then this becomes

find it. But to me then this becomes maybe it's a psychological question cuz

maybe it's a psychological question cuz if that's the fundamental question right

if that's the fundamental question right you've got these folks over here who

you've got these folks over here who want to burn down and destroy and wreck

want to burn down and destroy and wreck and repudiate and these folks over here

and repudiate and these folks over here who want to build and want to solve and

who want to build and want to solve and want to progress and want to repair.

want to progress and want to repair. Mhm. And if the difference between them

Mhm. And if the difference between them is that fundamental premise the world is

is that fundamental premise the world is good. Markx's favorite quote was what it

good. Markx's favorite quote was what it was from Gerta and it's a very specific

was from Gerta and it's a very specific quote. I knew this quote before I found

quote. I knew this quote before I found this out cuz I read Foust one and two

this out cuz I read Foust one and two and there's a line in there

and there's a line in there Mephostophles. So Gerta is trying to

Mephostophles. So Gerta is trying to characterize Mephostophles who's the

characterize Mephostophles who's the spirit of rationality or the spirit the

spirit of rationality or the spirit the Luciferian spirit of the usurp.

Luciferian spirit of the usurp. Mephostophle's credo was repeated twice

Mephostophle's credo was repeated twice in F once in F one and once in the

in F once in F one and once in the second part um everything that lives

second part um everything that lives should be eradicated because of the

should be eradicated because of the because of its insufficiency. Now I'm

because of its insufficiency. Now I'm paraphrasing and I'm paraphrasing badly

paraphrasing and I'm paraphrasing badly but the basic idea is that the suffering

but the basic idea is that the suffering that's attended on consciousness is

that's attended on consciousness is indicative of a flaw in the world so

indicative of a flaw in the world so profound that the best possible solution

profound that the best possible solution is the eradication of everything. Wow.

is the eradication of everything. Wow. Right. That's Marx's favorite quote.

Right. That's Marx's favorite quote. Wow. Right. That's very interesting. I

Wow. Right. That's very interesting. I did not know that. Yes. It's extremely

did not know that. Yes. It's extremely interesting because like that's only one

interesting because like that's only one sentence in each of those plays, you

sentence in each of those plays, you know, but it's it's it's Mephistophles's

know, but it's it's it's Mephistophles's revelation of his motivation. It's like

revelation of his motivation. It's like all that suffers should die so that

all that suffers should die so that suffering itself will cease. And the

suffering itself will cease. And the antiatalist types, for example, they

antiatalist types, for example, they believe exactly that, right? So, and so

believe exactly that, right? So, and so yes, this is something it's very

yes, this is something it's very interesting here because we're we're

interesting here because we're we're also verging on a definition of faith.

also verging on a definition of faith. So, in Job, like Job makes a decision.

So, in Job, like Job makes a decision. And and the decision is the act of

And and the decision is the act of faith. It's not belief in some idiot

faith. It's not belief in some idiot superstition. Job says, "Okay, I got two

superstition. Job says, "Okay, I got two pathways here. I can act as if the world

pathways here. I can act as if the world in its essence is good. I am, and so is

in its essence is good. I am, and so is the spirit of being." M or I can forgo

the spirit of being." M or I can forgo that and do what my wife suggests, which

that and do what my wife suggests, which is curse God and die, right? And all the

is curse God and die, right? And all the evidence at hand suggests that cursing

evidence at hand suggests that cursing God and dying is the right is the

God and dying is the right is the rational conclusion. And Job says, I

rational conclusion. And Job says, I refuse to forear my faith. Right? And

refuse to forear my faith. Right? And so, and I see that partly as a prod to

so, and I see that partly as a prod to the passion story, which is an extension

the passion story, which is an extension of what Job suffers and concludes. But

of what Job suffers and concludes. But the axiomatic presumption, well, maybe

the axiomatic presumption, well, maybe there's three, right? The spirit that

there's three, right? The spirit that underlies being is to be regarded as

underlies being is to be regarded as good. The essence of man, despite his

good. The essence of man, despite his flaws, if he's aiming up, is to be

flaws, if he's aiming up, is to be regarded as good. And the answer that

regarded as good. And the answer that you seek is dependent on the aim, right?

you seek is dependent on the aim, right? Because that brings the morality of the

Because that brings the morality of the investigator into the picture. And so

investigator into the picture. And so this is part of the reason, for example,

this is part of the reason, for example, why scientists need a CL and engineers

why scientists need a CL and engineers maybe even more to solve the problem of

maybe even more to solve the problem of alignment. Let's say yes, they need a

alignment. Let's say yes, they need a classical education. that's grounded in

classical education. that's grounded in a deep. Okay. So, okay. So, you you've

a deep. Okay. So, okay. So, you you've already come to that conclusion. Well,

already come to that conclusion. Well, is that part of I guess probably what

is that part of I guess probably what we're going to talk about on the Daily

we're going to talk about on the Daily Wire side because we're unfortunately

Wire side because we're unfortunately approaching the end of this um is more

approaching the end of this um is more practical consequences of this. I want

practical consequences of this. I want to talk to you more about the University

to talk to you more about the University of Austin and what you're aiming at, but

of Austin and what you're aiming at, but now I've kind of fleshed out the

now I've kind of fleshed out the metaphysical territory. And so, yeah,

metaphysical territory. And so, yeah, we're grounding people in their aim,

we're grounding people in their aim, right? And scientists and engineers

right? And scientists and engineers might think, well, that's unnecessary

might think, well, that's unnecessary given the importance of our pursuit. But

given the importance of our pursuit. But you can also see how absolutely

you can also see how absolutely susceptible they have been to the

susceptible they have been to the ideological mob in the universities,

ideological mob in the universities, right? The scientists have they're just

right? The scientists have they're just like babes in the woods when it comes to

like babes in the woods when it comes to the political activists. Absolutely. And

the political activists. Absolutely. And it shows that their their metaphysics is

it shows that their their metaphysics is so underdeveloped that they have no

so underdeveloped that they have no understanding or defense against the

understanding or defense against the deconstructionist mob. Well, and look, I

deconstructionist mob. Well, and look, I mean, you know, now we're in the age of

mean, you know, now we're in the age of AI, and this is an incredibly powerful

AI, and this is an incredibly powerful technological force. And imagine, you

technological force. And imagine, you don't have to imagine, unfortunately,

don't have to imagine, unfortunately, what would it mean

what would it mean for experts and technicians with, you

for experts and technicians with, you know, comprehensive capabilities to use

know, comprehensive capabilities to use AI and implement it and make it

AI and implement it and make it stronger had no philosophical

stronger had no philosophical anthropology, had no understanding of

anthropology, had no understanding of the human body. We we know what happens.

the human body. We we know what happens. We see it. We see uh what was they

We see it. We see uh what was they invent they invent uh devices that cause

invent they invent uh devices that cause um serious depression and mental illness

um serious depression and mental illness in teenage girls and and and everyone

in teenage girls and and and everyone loses the ability to communicate cuz the

loses the ability to communicate cuz the aim is wrong. Right. And they and they

aim is wrong. Right. And they and they devolve in their ignorance to their

devolve in their ignorance to their science fiction metaphysics that they

science fiction metaphysics that they adopted when they were 13 without even

adopted when they were 13 without even understanding that that constitutes a

understanding that that constitutes a religion and are unwilling completely to

religion and are unwilling completely to look beyond that. Exactly. Yeah. And you

look beyond that. Exactly. Yeah. And you know my image for this I I started

know my image for this I I started thinking about the inferno as a kind of

thinking about the inferno as a kind of political text. Oh yeah. And the fact is

political text. Oh yeah. And the fact is that you know you get to the ninth

that you know you get to the ninth circle and Dante's beautiful

circle and Dante's beautiful uh creation invention is that it's ice.

uh creation invention is that it's ice. Everyone's frozen the ice. Yeah. Isn't

Everyone's frozen the ice. Yeah. Isn't Isn't this like today? um where or at

Isn't this like today? um where or at least I mean now the ice is melting and

least I mean now the ice is melting and maybe we've gone through that center of

maybe we've gone through that center of the earth and come out the other side

the earth and come out the other side but you have Lucifer who towers up like

but you have Lucifer who towers up like a thousand ft and because he's come from

a thousand ft and because he's come from the other side of the world and jammed

the other side of the world and jammed into the middle and he's compared to

into the middle and he's compared to like this mechanical like a windmill and

like this mechanical like a windmill and he's chewing on Brutus and gas and

he's chewing on Brutus and gas and cashius these traitors and all these

cashius these traitors and all these people are frozen in the ice and they're

people are frozen in the ice and they're completely isolated no one can speak not

completely isolated no one can speak not Even Lucifer's mouth is full. No speech,

Even Lucifer's mouth is full. No speech, no connection with each other, an

no connection with each other, an eternity of atomization. This is this is

eternity of atomization. This is this is the effect of, you know, the social

the effect of, you know, the social media and the and by the way, Lucifer

media and the and by the way, Lucifer has three faces, right? And he's way up

has three faces, right? And he's way up high. He can look down. He can spy. He

high. He can look down. He can spy. He can survey the kingdom. It's just this

can survey the kingdom. It's just this incredible political image. It's like

incredible political image. It's like the allseeing eye of Sauron. Yeah.

the allseeing eye of Sauron. Yeah. Right. Well, you get the allseeing eye

Right. Well, you get the allseeing eye of Sauron as a substitute for the divine

of Sauron as a substitute for the divine if the state has to intervene in every

if the state has to intervene in every decree. Exactly. Right. So, so he's an

decree. Exactly. Right. So, so he's an image of this state that's just chewing.

image of this state that's just chewing. Yeah. Now, I feel like and I'm talking

Yeah. Now, I feel like and I'm talking about frankly after Trump's election,

about frankly after Trump's election, there's a lot of chaos, but it's as if

there's a lot of chaos, but it's as if is it's as if well before the election,

is it's as if well before the election, I was just had a sense of dread because

I was just had a sense of dread because I saw the way things were going. And now

I saw the way things were going. And now I I I have a hope that we've sort of

I I I have a hope that we've sort of gone through and realized everything was

gone through and realized everything was upside down cuz remember when they go

upside down cuz remember when they go through now they're going up and above

through now they're going up and above them is purgatory and above that is

them is purgatory and above that is heaven. Now they're rightly oriented but

heaven. Now they're rightly oriented but so the

so the misorientation of well Lucifer whose

misorientation of well Lucifer whose head is pointed the wrong way but

head is pointed the wrong way but pointed to the world above right so I

pointed to the world above right so I mean in Hades you know or hell I should

mean in Hades you know or hell I should say rather is it's the sort of sewer in

say rather is it's the sort of sewer in which all the polluted streams of the

which all the polluted streams of the earth flow and you know you've got to

earth flow and you know you've got to rem be being punished but that

rem be being punished but that reorientation is absolutely essential.

reorientation is absolutely essential. We've got we've we have to break the

We've got we've we have to break the ice. We have to learn how to speak. We

ice. We have to learn how to speak. We have to connect with each other. And

have to connect with each other. And we've got to reorient ourselves and

we've got to reorient ourselves and figure out what is above us and what is

figure out what is above us and what is below. Figure out what is north and what

below. Figure out what is north and what is south. And that's the most important

is south. And that's the most important task at this point. Right. Well, that's

task at this point. Right. Well, that's a really good place to end. And so we

a really good place to end. And so we can we'll continue this discussion on

can we'll continue this discussion on the Daily Wire side. Um well, I think we

the Daily Wire side. Um well, I think we could do two things. we can flesh out

could do two things. we can flesh out what it might mean to aim up because

what it might mean to aim up because part of what you see in the biblical

part of what you see in the biblical corpus is an attempt to characterize up

corpus is an attempt to characterize up and of course Socrates Plato are doing

and of course Socrates Plato are doing exactly the same thing right they're

exactly the same thing right they're doing it it's it's like dsioski and nse

doing it it's it's like dsioski and nse in a sense right the the ancient Hebrews

in a sense right the the ancient Hebrews use narrative as an investigative tool

use narrative as an investigative tool and and uh and the philosophers use

and and uh and the philosophers use philosophy and you can see that dynamic

philosophy and you can see that dynamic with niche and dsvki too which is quite

with niche and dsvki too which is quite interesting but both of them have their

interesting but both of them have their role and but the narrative role is more

role and but the narrative role is more fundamental. It's more fundamental and I

fundamental. It's more fundamental and I think that's been established. So, all

think that's been established. So, all right. So, we'll talk about that and I

right. So, we'll talk about that and I think we'll talk about attempts that are

think we'll talk about attempts that are being made now to reorient the academy.

being made now to reorient the academy. God that problem. And so, if you want to

God that problem. And so, if you want to continue with the discussion, join us on

continue with the discussion, join us on the Daily Wire side. And so, well, there

the Daily Wire side. And so, well, there were many more things that we could have

were many more things that we could have talked about today, but I like that

talked about today, but I like that vein. That was good. And and uh it's

vein. That was good. And and uh it's interesting to see

interesting to see It's interesting to see how you were

It's interesting to see how you were drawn to the conclusion that there was

drawn to the conclusion that there was something in these ancient narrative

something in these ancient narrative texts that was well of incalculable and

texts that was well of incalculable and necessary value, right? And that it's

necessary value, right? And that it's particularly relevant given the

particularly relevant given the technological transformations of the

technological transformations of the age. That's a very strange thing, right?

age. That's a very strange thing, right? Because you'd expect that as technology

Because you'd expect that as technology advances, the more ancient the text, the

advances, the more ancient the text, the less relevant it would be. It turns out

less relevant it would be. It turns out to be exactly the opposite. Yeah. And

to be exactly the opposite. Yeah. And it's already there with Babel. Yeah. And

it's already there with Babel. Yeah. And it's already there. Yeah. Right. And

it's already there. Yeah. Right. And Pharaoh. Exactly. Yes. Definitely. That

Pharaoh. Exactly. Yes. Definitely. That That's right. There's nothing new under

That's right. There's nothing new under the sun. That's for sure. Even

the sun. That's for sure. Even Even in this time when so strangely

Even in this time when so strangely there is so much new. Yes. Right. The

there is so much new. Yes. Right. The old patterns are even more obvious and

old patterns are even more obvious and people can see that at the bottom of the

people can see that at the bottom of the identity crisis there is a spiritual

identity crisis there is a spiritual crisis and a spiritual war and the

crisis and a spiritual war and the contours are becoming obvious. So as the

contours are becoming obvious. So as the technology mounts and the rate of

technology mounts and the rate of transformation increases, the archetypal

transformation increases, the archetypal contours actually become more clear.

contours actually become more clear. Yeah. Very weird. All right everybody.

Yeah. Very weird. All right everybody. So join us on the Daily Wire side. Um

So join us on the Daily Wire side. Um and thank you for your attention today

and thank you for your attention today and thank you very much for coming to

and thank you very much for coming to talk to me. And uh we appreciate you

talk to me. And uh we appreciate you people who are watching and uh if you

people who are watching and uh if you are inclined to toss and support the

are inclined to toss and support the Daily Wire way, come and see the rest of

Daily Wire way, come and see the rest of the conversation there. Good to talk to

the conversation there. Good to talk to you. Great to talk to you.

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YouTube Transcript:Ancient Stories That Bridge The Heavens & The Earth | Jacob Howland | EP 536