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Google CEO Sundar Pichai on the future of search, AI agents, and selling Chrome - AI Summary, Mind Map & Transcript | Decoder with Nilay Patel | YouTubeToText
YouTube Transcript: Google CEO Sundar Pichai on the future of search, AI agents, and selling Chrome
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Google CEO Sundar Pichai discusses the profound platform shift driven by AI, moving from foundational research to tangible products and services that will fundamentally alter how people create, interact, and experience technology, with a particular focus on the evolving role of search and the potential of AI-powered hardware.
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[Music]
So Nepai, you're the CEO of Alphabet and
Google. Welcome back to the coder. Well,
good to be back. Feels like a nice
tradition post IO to be talking to you.
So good to be back. I think this is the
third year we've done this after IO. I'm
excited. Thank you for keeping the
tradition alive. Lots to talk about. You
announced a lot of things yesterday
during the keynote. Uh there's AI mode
rolling out for US users. Big updates to
Gemini. There's V3 and Imagine the
generators. You solved Pokemon with
robots, which is very exciting. You
know, my takeaway yesterday was that
Google feels very confident now. There's
there's a a real confidence about the
technology coming to life and the
products. A lot of things are shipping
imminently. What's the one piece that
gave you that confidence? Is it just the
volume of things that are shipping? Is
it one technology that clicked into
being ready for consumers? Where where
is it coming from? Look, I think it
comes from
the depth and breadth of uh of the AI
frontier. We are pushing like at a in a
in a more fundamental and foundational
way. We spoke a lot about this theme
called research becomes reality. But it
is you know always felt we are a deep
computer science company and you know
we've been AI first for a while. So
putting all that together and and
bringing it to our products at the at
the depth and breadth is what I think
it's really pleasing to see. for example
like you know people may not have
noticed it much it was so quick we spoke
about text diffusion models in the
middle of the whole thing but you know
but we're pushing the frontier on all
dimensions right and so de spoke about
world models so I think uh to me that's
the exciting part like how deep we are
pushing this frontier and then bringing
it to users and so maybe that's what
that's what makes it feel that way you
you mentioned research into reality
several times obviously a lot of these
projects have been cooking in labs for a
long Um, you've said many times you
think AI will be as profound as
electricity. Yes. Over the past many,
many years that you and I have talked
about it, but you said something
yesterday that I think adds to that,
which is that we're in a new phase of
the platform shift, right? And people
have talked about AI being a platform
shift for quite a while. That always has
meant to me that there's a user
interface platform shift coming, right?
We're going to interact with computers
in natural language and more natural
ways and they will interact with us back
in that same way and everything will
change. Is that the platform shift?
Yeah, there are you know you are right
uh each of these platform shifts uh you
know changes many things on the IO front
uh nothing to do with Google IO just IO
in the traditional uh computer science
sense you know you could feel it
yesterday when I watched the Android XR
I've used them and played around with
them but watching it to people talking
in different languages you can envision
the future one day where it'll actually
be seamless in a way you couldn't have
done it with phones you couldn't have
done it without AI because there's
nothing in your way you're looking at
the other person and talking right and
so that is an element of platform shift
but there are many more elements right
this is the only platform where I think
the actual platform is over time capable
of creating and self-improving and so on
in a way we could have never talked
about any other platform before so
that's why I think it's much more
profound than the other platform shifts
it'll allow people to create new things
in a way uh you know because at each
layer of the stack there's going to be
profound improvements and so I think
that virtuous cycle you get uh in terms
of how you can unleash this creative
power to all of society be it software
engineers be it creators I think that is
in going to happen in a a much more
multiplicative way and that that you
know so when I say it's a next phase I'm
talking about that part too let me just
put make that more concrete for people I
think the last platform shift we all
understand is the shift to
That's right. And that was right. We're
going to have multi-touch. We're going
to have faster cell connections. We're
going to increase processing power that
can go with you everywhere. And then
there was a layer of applications that
was enabled by all of those things. You
can push a button and a Toyota Camry
will show up wherever you are in the
world is like a very powerful thing that
required all of those ideas. Well, how
would you describe the phase we're in
now compared to that? The phase of this
because the first phase of AI was the
transformers work and the models work
and we can all see this capability.
Yeah. The second phase what what is it
to you?
Just just imagine um you know like the
when when the internet came blogging
became a thing. You know pre- internet
very few people had a means by which
they could put out their thoughts out to
the world right you know with the
internet came a new medium. It allowed
people to create and express themselves
in a new way. With mobile cameras and
you could shoot and like you know you
could create videos. um you know look at
what what's happened with YouTube. For
me the similar part of this is you know
we're all talking about things like VIP
coding yesterday you saw V3 right so we
are now in that phase I think people are
going to be able to create AI
applications you can call it but you
know VIP coding there are many names to
it but that that power is yet to be
unleashed we're barely scratching the
surface right and these models are now
you know they aren't quite there you can
you can kind of do oneshot coding but
you really need to know be a programmer
to kind of go iterate and create
something with polish right but that
frontier is evolving pretty rapidly so I
think we you're going to see a new wave
of things just like mobile did just the
internet did uh you know I came to go
Google at the time when it was Ajax was
the revolution uh the fact that the web
became dynamic you know you had things
like Google maps flicker Gmail all that
suddenly came into existence right and
but I think AI is going to turbo charge
uh in a way we haven't seen before. It
feels like to me like what you're
describing is we're in the phase where
the products are developed, right? The
capabilities were the first phase and
now we're going to make some actual
products and and more people can build
products than ever before. That's the
multiplicative part I'm talking about.
Not just this platform helps you create
more products. The the process of
creating, developing, etc. is going to
be accessible to a much wider swath of
humanity than ever before. I'm wondering
when you look at the landscape of
products that exist now most people
experience AI in Gemini or chat as a
chatbot the general purpose interface to
a bunch of knowledge that will talk to
you what products do you see that will
have the same kind of impact as the web
two products you were talking about
besides the general purpose chatbot you
know uh well obviously you've seen away
with uh coding ides right like you know
that entire landscape is I can't even
keep track of uh you know how many new
companies have come into and people are
using a lot of it right and yesterday we
showed a bunch of partners with whom we
are working so that's an area where
because coding is where maybe AI is
making the uh most progress you're
seeing the application layer at least in
terms of code uh code editors uh really
come into vogue we've had success with
notebook LM right we're launching
products like flow yesterday right flow
is a new product which allows you to
create and imagine So those are all
applications we are doing. Uh I think
others are beginning to do you know
people are working on like legal
assistance and there are all kinds of
startups uh you know I I was recently in
a doctor's office and they do have AI
kind of look at I mean transcribe the
whole thing put it all in reports and so
on that's at an enterprise application
layer kind of completely works different
than when I went to that visit 2 years
ago. So all that change is happening
across the board but I think we just in
the early stages. So you know you will
see it play out over the next three to
five years in a big way. Did you ask
your doctor what model their
transcription software is running? No I
didn't. No I didn't. Yeah. One of the
reasons I'm asking this and I'm pushing
on this is the amount of huge investment
in the capability from Google and others
has to pay off in some products that
return on that investment. Notebook LM
is great. I don't think it's going to
fully return on Google's data center
investment, let alone the investment in
pure AI research. Do you see a product
that can return on that investment at scale?
scale?
Look, do you think in 2004 if you had
looked at Gmail, which was a 20% project
which people were internally
using internally as an email service.
you know, how would we be able to think
about, you know, Gmail is what led us to
do workspace, get into the enterprise. I
made a big bet on Google Cloud, you
know, uh, which is, you know, tens of
billions of dollars in revenue today,
right? And, and so my point is, uh, you
know, things build out over time, right?
Um, think about the journey we've been
with Whimo, right? And so I think one of
the mistakes people make often in a
period of rapid innovation is think
about what is that next big business
versus looking at the underlying
innovation and say can you build
something and put out something which
people love and use right and and and
out of which you you do the next thing
and you know create value out of it. So
when I look at it AI is the such a
horizontal piece of technology across
our entire business. It's why you know I
mean it impacts not just Google search,
YouTube cloud, all of Android you saw XR
etc. Google Play things like
Whimo isomorphic which is based on Alpha
Fold. So I've never seen one piece of
technology which can impact and help us
create so many businesses right and you
know AI is going to be so useful as an
assistant. I think that people will be
willing to pay for it too. We're
introducing subscription plans. So
there's a lot of you know headroom ahead
I think and and obviously that's why we
are investing because we see that
opportunity some of it will take uh take
time and it may not be always
immediately obvious uh you know I gave
the way example in fact 3 years ago
people were the sentiment on was quite
negative 3 years ago you know but I
actually you know as a company we
increased our investment into way more
at that time right because you're
betting on the underlying technology and
you're seeing the progress of where it's
going but these are good questions right
in in some ways if you don't realize the
opportunities that may constrain the
pace of uh you know investment in this
area but I but I you know but it I'm
optimistic we'll be able to unlock new
opportunities one reason I wanted to
start here as the foundation of the
conversation is you showed off Android
XR yesterday you showed off some
prototype glasses you have some partners
making glasses a lot of people think
augmented reality glasses powered by AI
will be the realization of the full
platform shift Right. You will have an
always on assistant that can look at the
world around you. You showed some of
those demos yesterday. The form factor
will change. The interface will change.
This will be a market as big as
smartphones were. How close do you think
we are to that as a mainstream product?
Um, you know, it was a nice reflective
moment all the way back from Google
Glass. Uh, you know, wearing the
product. I think there's a difference
between goggles and glasses. uh you know
everyone at Verge understands this as
well but you know obviously we are also
shipping goggles you know we have
announced uh uh products with Samsung to
come later this year on the XR side I
think I'm excited about our partnership
with Gentle Monster and Barbie Parker
will have products in the hands of
developers this year and I think but I
think those products will be pretty
close to what people eventually see as
final products so I'm excited I The pace
is actually pretty uh we palpable. So
I'd be shocked if you you and I were
sitting next year. Uh you know I wasn't
wearing one of that uh when I'm doing
the Do you think but that will be like a
mainstream iPhone level replacement
product cuz there's a lot of hardware
that needs to get developed along the
way to pull that off. Yeah, there are
there are look you're wearing something
on your face. people like I have
prescription uh right and uh you know
the bar is higher I think in terms of
making the experience seamless enough
that you're willing to wear it in your
face and enjoy it for all so so I don't
think nely next year it's as mainstream
as what you're talking about but would
millions of people be trying it I think
so yeah so both are both are true I
think so I have to ask you just before
we sat down openai announced that Johnny
IV was selling a company he had started
called IO to the company and IV and his
design consultancy love from would take
over all design. They didn't announce a
product but they said it's the future of
computing and it's coming next year. Is
do you anticipate more of that
competition that your competitors who
don't have a smartphone operating system
will go even harder in this direction?
I'm looking forward to a open IO
announcement ahead of Google IO the
night before. No, first of all, look,
stepping back, I mean, Johnny IV is, uh,
you know, uh, one of a kind. You know,
you look at this track record over the
years. I've definitely, uh, I've met him
only once or twice, but, you know, I've
admired his work obviously like so many
of us. Uh, so I think it's it's exciting,
exciting,
shows, you know, this is why I feel like
it's such there's so much innovation
ahead. Uh, and I think people tend to
underestimate this moment in some ways.
people tend to I always like to point
out when the internet happened Google
didn't even exist right I think what
people so when you when you think about
I think AI is going to be bigger than
the internet there are going to be
companies products categories created
which we aren't aware of today so I
think the future looks exciting I think
there's a lot of opportunity to innovate
around uh uh innovate around hardware
form factors at this moment with this
platform shift so I'm looking forward to
seeing what they uh you know we are
going to be doing a lot as well and I
think you know it's it's a exciting time
to be a consumer it's an exciting time
to be a developer so I think looking
forward to it I've in that video
described the phone and the laptop is
legacy platforms which is very
interesting considering his own history
are you all the way there that the phone
and laptop are legacy platforms look I
think these things if anything uh I
found through this AI moment using the
web a lot
right? Because I'm like it's easier to
create a V3 video on my browser in a big
screen, right? And and and so um I think
the way I've internalized is computing
will be available in like you don't have
to make these hard choices. You know,
you will computing is will become so
essential to you. You're going to have
it in multiple ways around you when you
need it, right? like I use a phone, a
tablet, a laptop, and I have my
workstation, right? And so I have the
breadth of it. Um, and but but you know,
I I you know, over time it makes sense
to me at some point in the future
consuming content by pulling out this
black glass display rectangle in front
of you and looking at it is not the most
intuitive way to do it. But I, you know,
but I think it's going to take some
time. I feel like we could do a full
hour just on Android tablets and where
they could go. We're going to come back
for that. A big part of what you're
describing implicates search in in
really big ways, right? We're going to
be surrounded by information. Search or
Gemini or some future Google product
will organize that information, take
action for you across the web in some
way and you will have a a companion and
maybe you only pull out your tablet to
watch a video or something. A lot of
what's going on with search has
downstream effects on the web,
downstream effects on information
providers broadly. Are you starting?
Last year we spent a lot of time talking
about those effects. Are you seeing that
play out the way that you thought it would?
would?
Look, I
um you know it depends. Uh I think I do
think people are consuming a lot more
information. Um and you know web is one
specific format. So we should talk about
the web but zooming back out you know
there are new platforms like YouTube and
others too. So I think people are just
consuming a lot more information right.
So it feels like an expansionary moment.
Uh I think there are more creators,
people are putting out more content. Um
you know and so people are generally
doing a lot more maybe people have a
little bit extra time in their hands and
so it's a combination of all that on the
web. Look things which have been uh
interesting and you know we've had these
uh conversations for a while you know
obviously in 2015 there was this famous
the web is dead uh you know I I always
have it somewhere around you know which
I look at it once in a while uh
predictions it's existed for a while I
think the web is evolving pretty pretty
profoundly I think that is true when we
crawl when we look at the number of web
pages available to us that number has
gone up by 45% in the last two years alone
alone
Right. So that's a staggering thing to
think. Can you detect if the if that
number if that volume increase is
because more pages are generated by AI
or not? This is the thing I I worry
about the most. Right. I um it's a good
question. We generally have many
techniques in search to try and
understand the quality of a page
including whether it was machine generated
generated
etc. This trend that doesn't explain
this trend we are seeing right. So
generally there are more web pages
right? So uh you know so so you know at
an underlying level. So I think that's
an interesting uh phenomenon. I think
everybody as a creator like you do at
Verge I think today if you're doing
stuff you have to do it in a
crossplatform cross format way uh in a
uh you know I look at the quality of
video content you put out. It's very
sophisticated right? You know and uh
very different from how words used to be
maybe 5 to 10 years ago right? It's
profoundly changed. So I think things
are becoming more dynamic cross format.
I think the thing another thing people
are under underestimating with AI
is AI will make it zero friction to move
from one format to another right because
our models are natively multimodal. We
kind of tease people's imagination with
audio overviews in notebook right the
fact you can throw a bunch of documents
at it and you have a podcast and you can
join and learn from it. So I think this
notion the static moment of like you
produce content by format whereas I
think machines can help translate it
from it's almost like different
languages and they can go seamlessly
between I think it's one of the
incredible opportunities to be unlocked
right ahead and so uh but maybe I didn't
want to drift from the uh question we
were having but I look I I think I think
people are producing a lot of content
and I see consumers consuming consuming
a lot of content and and you know it's
we we see it in our products others are
seeing it too so that's that's how I
would probably answer at the highest
level the way I I see it currently is
that the web is at an all-time high as
an application platform right the fact
that Figma exists and is as successful
as it is and its primary interfaces as a
web app is I think remarkable a lot of
the products you were talking about are
expressed as web apps even some of the
most interesting search results you
showed yesterday are, you know, Google
would generate a custom web app for you
and display it in a search result to do
some data visualization. I think that's
all looking incredible. I think the web
as a transaction platform is reaching
new heights, especially with rulings
that mean smartphone makers have to let
people push transactions to the web.
There's something very interesting
happening there. As a media platform, it
feels like it's at an all-time low,
right? If I was starting the verge, the
web, that's a media platform. The web is
a media plat is an information platform.
If I was starting The Verge today uh
with 11 of my co-founder and friends, we
would start a Tik Tok channel. We we
might start a YouTube channel. We would
definitely not start a website with the
dependencies we have as a website today.
And that's the dynamic that it feels
like AI is pushing on even harder. I'm
not fully sure I agree. Right. I think
you know I think if you were to go and
restart Verge again, I bet you would
start a uh you would have a
extraordinary web presence at best. No,
I I've thought about this a lot. I think
at at best our web presence would look
like a Substack or a ghost or something,
right? Uh maybe. Look, I u you know I'm
not you know I'm not fully sold on that
like you know but you know you know the
space. I acknowledge you know that space
better than I do. Uh so I don't mean to
be uh mean to be you know I don't have
that intuition which you do here. Uh but
look I I
see in fact you say the web application
platform is an all-time high but I've
looked you know I was wipe coding with
replet a few weeks ago uh you know
create I mean the power of what you're
going to be able to create on the web we
haven't given that power to developers
in 25 years. Mhm. So that is going to
come ahead.
So, you know, it's not exactly clear to
me. Uh, you know, maybe today you're
looking at and say, I won't put all the
investment in because it looks like a
lot of investment to do that. But that
may not be true 2 years out, right?
Like, you know, if you feel like you
would create a Tik Tok channel, then,
you know, maybe with like 2% extra
effort, if you could have a robust web
presence, why wouldn't you? Right? And
so so I'm not fully I you know I'm not
fully sold on it but I think it's a good
question to ask but you know you have to
somehow reconcile that with the fact
that overall that traffic seems to be
growing we see more web pages in so
somewhere we have to explain all of that
too. You know the publishers as they
often do responded to Google IO
announcements. So the news media
alliance uh after AI mode was announced
yesterday I would say they're very
upset. Uh here's here's a statement from
the president of the news media
alliance. Links were the last redeeming
quality of search that gave publishers
traffic and revenue. Now Google takes
content by force and uses it with no
return, no economic return. That's the
definition of theft. And they go on to
say the DOJ lawsuits must address it.
That's pretty furious. That's not a
negotiation, right? That's a we just
want this to stop. How do you respond to
that very loud set of people who say,
"Yeah, okay, maybe it's growing
somewhere, but for us it's crushing our
businesses." Look I um you know first of
all through all the products I mean AI
mode is going to have sources and you
know one of we're very committed as a
direction as a product direction uh to
make I think part of why people come to
Google is to experience that breadth uh
of the web and and go in the direction
they want to right so I view us as
giving more context yes there are
certain questions which may get answers
but overall and that's the pattern we
see today right and and if anything over
the last year it's clear to us the
breadth of where we are sending people
to is increasing uh and and so I I
expect that to be true with AI mode as
well but if it was increasing wouldn't
they be less angry with you look I more
than you're you're always going to have
areas where people are robustly debating
value exchanges etc right like app
developers and platforms that's not on
the web etc right it's inherently the uh
you know you know there's always going
to be when you're running a platform
these debates I would challenge I think
more than any other company we we think
about we prioritize sending traffic to
the web no one sends traffic to the web
in the way we do I look at other
companies newer emerging companies they
openly talk about it as something they
are not going to do right we are the
only ones which make it a high priority
agonize nice and so on. Look, we'll
engage and you know, we've always
engaged. There are going to be uh
debates through it all, but we are
committed to, you know, I've said this
before, everything we do across all you
will see us 5 years from now, sending a
lot of traffic out to the web. I think
that's the product direction we are
committed to. I think it's what users
look for when they come to Google,
right? and uh and the nature of it will
evolve. But you know I I I you know I'm
confident that that's the direction
we'll continue taking. Is there public
data that shows that AI overviews and AI
mode actually send more traffic out than
the previous search engine results page?
Look, it's you know the way we look at
it is I mean obviously we take a lot of
uh we definitely uh sending traffic to a
wider range of uh uh uh sources
publishers and and because just like
we've done over 25 years we went through
the same with featured snippets the the
quality of you know it's higher quality
referral traffic too so right and we can
observe it because the time when people
spend as one metric and there are other
ways by which we measure quality of our
outbound traffic is also increasing
So and overall through this transition I
think generally AI overviews are also
growing and you know the growth
compounds over time. So whenever we have
worked through these transitions it ends
up post that's how Google has worked for
uh 25 years and you know and we end up
sending more traffic over time. So
that's that's how I would expect all
this to play out. So why do you think
that there is so much general economic
turmoil on that side of the the house
right? If you're sending more traffic
and the goal over time is to make sure
that that sending traffic to we're a
year into it, right? And it it doesn't
seem to have gotten better over there.
No, look, we are sending traffic to a
broader source of people. People may be
you know uh surfacing more content,
looking at more content. So somebody
individually may see less. I mean there
are all kinds of at the end of the day
we are reflecting what users want. Mhm.
Right. You know if you do the wrong
thing users won't use our product go
somewhere else. Right. And and and so
you have uh uh you know you have all
these dynamics underway and I think we
have genuinely you know we took a long
time designing a AI overviews and we are
constantly iterating
uh in a way that we
prioritizes you know sources and sending
traffic to the web. I mean, my my
criticism of this industry, just be
clear, is that everyone's addicted to
Google, and it would be better if they
weren't, but they're addicted to Google,
right? And they're they're feeling it.
And then on top of that, you see, you've
mentioned several times, like overall
queries are increasing on Google
services, but they're they're changing,
right? They're getting longer. They're
getting more complicated. AI mode might
walk you through several steps. Maybe
some people are searching on TikTok now.
Eddie EQ uh on the stand in the trial
the other day said uh search and Safari
for the last month dropped for the first
time in 22 years. That's a big stat.
Obviously your stock price uh was
affected by it. There was a statement.
Is that trend bearing out that the
standard Google search is is dropping
from devices and different kinds of
searches are
increasing? No, look uh we've been very
clear. We are seeing overall query
growth in search. Um you know it looks
but have you actually seen the drop in Safari?
Safari?
Look, we have a comprehensive view of
how we look at data across the board. Uh
there's a lot of there can be a lot of
noise in search data. Uh but everything
we see tells us we are seeing query
growth including across Apple's devices
and platforms. Uh and specifically, you
know, I think we quantified the query
growth from AI overviews and what's
what's healthy is that the query growth
is continuing to grow over time. This is
what I I've said before. It feels very
far from a zero sum game to me. I said
this last year. It's interesting. We
spoke about Tik Tok, right? Think about
like how profound a new product Tik Tok
was. How has YouTube done since Tik Tok
has come? Right? You could ask all these
questions there. Like why is it that Tik
Tok comes and YouTube has grown? I think
what we always underestimate in these
moments is people are engaging more,
doing more with it. we are improving our
products and and so you know so that's
how I would I would think about these
moments let me just broaden that out to
agents right uh I watched Dennis Asabis
yesterday he was on stage with Sergey
Brin and Alex Hantritz asked
him what does a web look like in 10
years and Dennis said I don't know that
an Asian first web looks anything like
the web that we have today I don't know
that we have to render web pages for
agents the way that we have to see them
that kind of implies that the web will
turn into a series of databases for
various agents to go and ask questions
to and return those answers. And I I've
been thinking about this in the context
of services like Uber and Door Dash and
Airbnb. Why would they want to
participate in that and be abstracted
away for agents to use the services
they've spent a lot of time and money
building? Two things though. First,
there's a lot to unpack. It's a
fascinating topic. Um the web is a
series of databases, etc. We build a UI
on top of it for for all of us to
consume. This is exactly what I wanted
is the web is a series of databases. It
is like you know but I think I think I I
listened to the uh te surrogate
conversation yesterday I enjoyed it. I
think he's saying for a agent first web
like so you know for a web which is
interacting with agents you would you
would think about how to make that
process more
efficient. Today you're running a
restaurant people are coming dining and
eating and people are ordering takeout
and delivery. Obviously for for you to
service the
takeout you would think about it
different than all the tables and the
clothing and the furniture and the like
you know so but both are important to
you. You could be a restaurant which
decides I'm not going to participate in
the takeout business. I'm only going to
focus on uh on on on the dining
experience. You're going to have some
people vice versa. I'm going to say I'm
going to go all in on this and run a
different uh experience. So to your
question on agents right I think think
of agents as uh you know a new powerful
format. I do think it'll happen in
enterprises faster than consumer. Mhm.
Because in the context of an enterprise
you have a CIO who's able to go and say
I really don't know why these two things
don't talk to each other. Yeah. Right.
I'm not going to buy more of this unless
you interoperate with this. uh so I I
think partly why you see on the
enterprise side a lot more uh uh agentic
experiences on the consumer side I think
what you're saying is a good point right
people have to think about and say what
is the value for me to participate in
this world and it could come in many
ways it could be because I participated
in it and overall my business grows
right some people may fa feel that it's
disintermediating right and like it
doesn't make sense I think all of that
are you
uh all of that can
happen but users may vote with their
feet right like you know you may find
like some people are supporting the
agentic experience and your life is
better because of it and so you're going
to have all these dynamics and like you
know and I think they're going to try
and find an equilibrium somewhere is how
you know everything evolves yeah I mean
I think the idea that the web is a
series of databases and we change the
inter first of all this is like the most
decoder conversation that we've ever had
I'm very happy with it but you know I
had DAR from Uber on the show. I asked
him this question from his perspective.
And his answer attracts yours broadly.
He said, "First, we'll do it because
it's cool and we'll see if there's value
there and if there is, you know, he's
going to charge a a big fee for the
agent to come and use Uber because
losing the customer for him, losing the
ability to upsell or sell a
subscription." None of that is great,
right? That it's the same is true for
Airbnb. I keep calling it the Door Dash
problem. Like Door Dash should not be a
dumb pipe for sandwiches, right? that
they they're trying to actually run a
business and they want the customer
relationship. And so if the agents are
going across the web and they're looking
in all these databases and saying,
"Okay, this is where I get food from and
this is where I get cars from and this
is where I book I think the demo was
booking a a vacation home in Spanish,
right? And I'm going to connect you to
that agent uh that travel agent." Is it
just going to be tolls that everyone
pays to let the agents work? Because the
the price I I still don't the CIO gets
to just spend money to solve the
problem. Yeah, he says, "I want this
capability for you and I'm just going to
pay you to do it." The the market, the
consumer market doesn't have that
capability. Right?
All kinds of models may emerge, right?
Uh I can literally see envision 20
different ways this could work, right?
Consumers could pay a subscription for
agents and the agents could rev share
back, right? So, you know, so that that
is a CIO like use case you're talking
about. That's possible. We can't rule
that out.
uh rule that out. I don't think we
should underestimate people may actually
see more value participating in it. You
know, I think this is uh you know it's
tough to predict. Uh but I do think uh
over time like you know like if you're
removing friction and improving user
experience, you know, it's tough to bet
against those in the long run, right?
And so I think it, you know, I think if
in general you're lowering friction for
it, uh, you know, and people are
enjoying using it, right? Somebody's
going to want to participate in it and
grow their business. Yeah. Right. And
like would brands want to be in
retailers, why don't they sell directly
today? Yeah. Like why won't they do
that? I I don't know. Because retailers
provide value in the middle, right? And
like you know uh why do merchants take
credit cards right like why pay I'm just
saying so like there are many parts like
and and you find equilibrium because
merchants take credit cards because they
see more business as part of taking
credit cards than not right and which
justifies the increased cost of taking
credit cards um it may not be the
perfect analogy but I think there are
all these kinds of effects going around
but but what you're saying is true that
you know some of this will slow uh
progress and agents just because we all
are excited about A2A and MCP and we
think no like some of it will slow uh uh
slow uh slow progress. Um but I think
it'll be it'll be very dynamic. Yeah.
Yeah. There's other pressures on Google.
There's antitrust pressures. The
government would like you to sell
Chrome. Can you do all the things you
want to do if you're made to sell Chrome?
Chrome?
Look, I mean I you know I don't want to
comment on Look, we are uh you know we
are in a legal process. Um you know I
look at having directly been involved in
building Chrome uh right I look at the I
think there are very few companies which
would have appro you know we we not only
improved our product we improved like
the state of the web by building Chrome
we open sourced it we provided as
Chromium everyone else has access to the
browser so I think the amount of R&D the
amount of innovation we put into it uh
the investments in security etc we do so
I think we to sell it. Can you do all
the things that you want to do? Um,
look, I I don't think that's the uh
scenario we're looking at. stepping back
you know as a company look I I think as
a company I think of ourselves as a
deeply foundational technology company
uh which then translates it into
products that touch billions of people
and you know so we do it across many
many things and so of course I think
look as a company we are going to
continue investing and doing our best to
innovate and build a successful business
in all scenarios uh so this how I would
answer it the Trump administration is uh
extremely transactional I would say, you
know, the tech industry has a new
relationship with Trump in a second
term. You were at the inauguration. Have
you had conversations about what a
settlement might look like and what the
Trump administration might demand to
make these problems go away? No. No.
Like, look, we we've always we we've
engaged with the DOJ or like we do o
over the years on in the context of all
the all the cases we have. So, that's
you know, that's that's how we normally
do these conversations. Trump has very
publicly said he doesn't like his search
ranking and he wants it changed in some
way. Would you ever adjust the search
ranking for Donald Trump?
No. Like you know we have a I can't
today the way Google search works is I cannot
cannot
uh no person Google can influence the
ranking algorithm in AI mode is
different right we've seen system
prompts adjusted in very chaotic ways
from some of your competitors. Is that
something that you would be open to in a
world where you're serving the full
answer? So, so would you adjust the AI
mode responses in response to political
pressure? No. Because we we've seen
certainly in Grock and others that
system prompts change the answers in
dramatic ways. No, like the way we do
ranking like you know the way we do
ranking is sacrosan to us. Uh you know
we've done it over 25 years. uh you know
we make a lot of when there's a lot of
ranking signals we take into account and
stuff and if there's broad feedback from
people that something isn't working
right we will look at it systematically
and try and make changes but you know we
don't take look at individual cases and
ever change ranking when you think about
those sources of information one of the
things that I have been thinking about a
lot is I don't know this the CDC web
pages have changed a lot recently right
diversity equity inclusion language has
been removed from pages across the
government those used to be very high
ranking sources in Google search, right?
We would we just implicitly trusted the
CDC's web pages in some ways. Are you
re-evaluating that that there might be
misinformation on some of these pages
that then gets synthesized into AI
results? No, it's a misunderstanding of
how search works, right? We don't
individually evaluate the
authoritiveness of like a page, right?
And like it's what our signals does, you
know, page ranket. It's, you know,
obviously our signals
are multiple orders of magnitude more
complicated than page rank today, but to
use page rank as an example, we weren't
the ones determining how authoritative a
page is. It's how other pages were
linking to it like an academic citation,
etc. So, so we don't, you know, so we
are not making those decisions today.
And so I don't I don't see that
changing. As you synthesize more of the
answers, do you think you're going to
have to take more responsibility for the results?
results?
Look, we are giving context around it
and but we still anchoring it in, you
know, the sources we find. Uh, you know,
but we've always felt a high bar, you
know, in in in Google. I mean, last year
when we launched AI overviews, I think,
you know, people were adversely querying
to find errors and the error rate was 1
in 7 million for adversal queries and so
but that was a big but that's the bar.
We've always operated as a company and
so I think to me nothing is nothing has
changed like you know Google operates
under a very high bar that's the bar we
strive to meet and and you know our
search page results are there for
everyone to see with that comes that
natural uh accountability and you know
we have to constantly earn people's
trust so that's how I would approach it
what do you think the marker is for the
next phase of the platform shift after
this one we we open by talking about
we're in a second phase what's the
marker for the final phase or the third
phase of the platform shift you mean of
the AI platform. What what are you
looking for as the next marker? Oh, you
know, look, I think, you know, the the
the real thing about AI, which I think
why I've always called it more profound
is, you know, self-improving technology,
right? And you know uh having watched alpha
alpha
go you know start from scratch not
knowing how to play go and you know
within couple hours or 4 hours be better
than uh a top level human players and in
8 hours you know no human can ever
aspire to play against it right so you
know and that's the essence of the
technology obviously in in in a in a in
a deep way so I think look I think
there's so much ahead
uh you know on the opportunity side you
know I I'm blown away by the ability to
discover new drugs you know completely
uh change how we treat diseases like
cancer over time etc you know the
opportunities there um you know I uh the
creative power which I talked about
which we're putting in everyone's hands
like the next generation of kids
everyone can program and will to if you
think of something you can create it I
think I I I don't think we have
comprehended what that means but that's
going to be true. The part which the
next phase of the shift which is going
to be really meaningful is when this
translates into the physical world
through robotics. Mhm. Right. So that
aha moment of robotics I think when it
happens that's going to be the next big
thing we will all uh grapple with.
Right. Today they're all online and
you're doing things with it. But you
know one hand you know today I think of
way more as a robot right? So we are
running around uh driving around a robot
but I'm talking more uh general purpose
robot and you know and when AI creates
that magical moment with robotics I
think that'll be a big platform shift as
well. Yeah I'm looking forward to it
next year we're going to do this with
glasses and robots. It's going to be
great. We'll we'll give it a shot. Thank
you so much. All right. Thanks. I appreciate
appreciate
it. Are these setups getting more and
more stuff? I just feel like I have to
say something more important just for
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