Hang tight while we fetch the video data and transcripts. This only takes a moment.
Connecting to YouTube player…
Fetching transcript data…
We’ll display the transcript, summary, and all view options as soon as everything loads.
Next steps
Loading transcript tools…
Only Narcissistic Parents Get Cut Off By Adult Kids? With Dr. Peter Salerno @DrPeterSalerno | The Wizard of Radical Self-Respect | YouTubeToText
YouTube Transcript: Only Narcissistic Parents Get Cut Off By Adult Kids? With Dr. Peter Salerno @DrPeterSalerno
Skip watching entire videos - get the full transcript, search for keywords, and copy with one click.
Share:
Video Transcript
Today I had my friend Dr. Peter Serno
back on the show. We went over a lot of
fascinating topics. We first went over
his appearance on the new Ted Bundy
documentary on Hulu. And then
considering the genetic component of
narcissism. We went over what parents
should do if they suspect one of their
children is narcissistic. We went over
how just because someone isn't a blank
slate doesn't mean they are a finished
script either. and we went over are all
narcissists abusive and as usual we
talked about a lot more than that and I
felt like this discussion could have
gone on for another hour or more but
with that I do hope you enjoy my
discussion with Dr. Peter Serno as much
as I did.
Dr. Serno, how are you today sir?
I'm doing great. How are you Jared?
Do living the dream over here. Living
the dream. But I did just finish
watching your Hulu, the Hulu documentary
on Ted Bundy. Maybe you could share what
that experience was like for you.
Yeah, it was really cool. I was
approached uh for that last year
actually. And the idea of the of the
show is basically one of the detectives
that was involved in the case, uh,
Robert Keell, he
received a letter communication from
Bundy basically saying, "If I can
receive a stay on my execution, if you
extend my life, I might be valuable for
you um to help catch people who are, you
know, accused of the same things I am
accused of." And then they basically um
obliged and decided maybe he could be
useful, but also they wanted to use it
as an opportunity for him to confess to
some of the murders that he committed
for clo not closure, but for a little
bit of solace at least to identify some
of the victims. And so they did a series
of interviews, lots of interviews that
were recorded where they're going back
and forth kind of discussing um his
mind, the mind of the of the Green River
killer, you know, how could they could
he provide them with some insight that
could help them catch him and then also
simultaneously trying to um
persuade him to give up some of his own
information so that these these people
these victims could be found. Uh, so
it's it's a it's on Hulu and Disney Plus
right now. It's a six six episode series
and really interesting if you want to
see, you know, like real time dynamics
between somebody who's psychopath with
literally no conscience whatsoever and
all of the manipulative tactics that
he's he's, you know, implementing
throughout that process. It's pretty
interesting. And there was things I
learned in that documentary that I never
knew. I never knew that he escaped twice
from jail while being charged with
murder. That's insane to me.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it was very
strategic. It was obviously very
premeditated. One of the times he had to
starve himself so he could fit through a
crawl space in the ceiling of his cell.
The other one he just um like he did he
charmed and uh befriended the the law
enforcement people when he was uh
studying in the library for because he
was representing himself because he was
obviously the best lawyer in the world.
So he decided to fire his his legal
staff and represent himself and then
they let him use the phone and uh he
jumped out of a window.
I mean, his grandiosity was off the
charts in that whole thing. Just the
fact that he defended himself and he's
putting on a show. Yeah.
He's putting on a show with the the
prosecutors and the head of the police
there. They're kind of having a standoff
basically like, "Oh, read I'll read the
charges. I'll read the charges against
me." It was just wild to see. He was taking
taking
It was like a He's putting on a show.
Yeah. very performative but also very
arrogant in the sense that he didn't
believe for a second he was going to be
convicted. So he kind of he kind of made
a mockery of the whole thing and he even
uh uh proposed to his girlfriend on the
stand during his trial and she uh said
yes and then they ended up having a
child together. But I mean just making a
spectacle of the whole thing, you know,
it's really very disrespectful to the
people that were harmed by him and that
um just not just speaks to how somebody
can be that callous and then not even
take that seriously that he, you know,
destroyed countless lives and took lives
and he did it all with a smile on his
face in in the court proceedings.
Yeah. No empathy, right? That's That's
how you know they didn't have a drop of
remorse or empathy for anything they did.
did.
Yeah. Now, do they know much about Ted
Bundy's upbringing?
Yeah, they know a lot actually. Um, one
one of one interesting read is Annne
Rule's uh book, The Stranger Beside Me,
because she was a retired uh police
officer who started working for a
24-hour crisis hotline, and she was
working next to Ted Bundy, who was also
working at that same crisis hotline. So,
um, that was a very interesting dynamic
because they were like friends, but she
would get glimpses into his whole
upbringing because they would chat, you
know, while they were at work and she
had no idea who he was or what he was
capable of, but he gave a lot of, you
know, information into his upbringing
and things like that. Um he certainly
did not have a traditional conventional
upbringing in the sense that um his
mother had him at a wedlock and so at
that time it was very frowned upon. So
they decided to make it seem like his
grandparents were his biological parents
and that his mother was his sister. Um
Um
so it was odd that you know that's how
he however he admits to knowing that the
whole time like he knew that what was
up. So, it didn't necessarily
bother him that much. And then he was
even asked about it on several occasions
and he said, "I just I knew what was up.
It wasn't necessarily something that
bothered me. Sometimes I called her by
her name. Sometimes I called her mom."
But, um, there really wasn't any there
was a lot of witnesses in his childhood
for his callous, unemotional traits that
were expressed in behaviors very early
on in life. Um, he enjoyed terrifying
people. He enjoyed hurting people. Um,
there's not a lot of
adversity to speak of in that regard. Of
course, a lot of people argue that that
he was traumatized and that's why he did
what he did, but he doesn't think so. He
actually admits, he goes, "You need to
stop looking for cause and effect
because it's you're not going to find
it." But then he contradicts himself
like psychopaths and narcissists do, and
he goes, "Well, you know, pornography is
what made me do all this." So,
uh, yeah.
And it was interesting. I mean, his mom
was on the show, right? And his brother
was, too. Yeah.
Yeah.
And they seemed fairly normal,
reasonable people. Yeah.
Yeah.
But yeah, certainly not him.
Oh, his brother was just brutalized,
traumatized by the betrayal and and just
the whole thing. I I feel, you know,
really sorry for what he's probably had
to deal with, the backlash of being
related and um just what it did to his
life. It's horrible. Um very
compassionate man. And um you know,
everybody in that I was really impressed
with everybody in that in the
documentary just how much compassion
they have. the the the detectives, the
people involved with the case, people um
the the victim's families, how you know,
it's just it's a good opportunity, I
think, to um stop elevating him to some
like evil genius that's, you know, um
and and give credit where credit's due
to the people who caught him, got him to
confess, and then give honor to the
victims and their families. I thought it
was really well done. So,
Sure. And I think with him, people don't
talk much about the family of an accused
usually or the person that's even
convicted of murder or something like
that. People talk about the f the
victim's families and what they're going
through. And rightfully so, but people
don't talk nearly as much about, well, I
wonder what Ted Bundy's mother has to go
through. What does his brother have to
go through? What do people think about
that? The only thing I could even think
of that might be close is maybe the
family members of Hitler for example and
the stigma that might be attached to
that. But it's an aspect you don't hear
much about.
Yeah. Well, I mean his mother and his
other siblings were certainly victims of
him as well. I mean because again you
gota you got to carry that name and um
you know I think a lot of people are
quick to make them guilty by association
or make his mother um somehow
accountable like why didn't you see it?
Look, we, you know, there's there's
countless I mean, the evidence shows
that when somebody is offending like
that, if someone is a criminal offender
like that in your family, the people
closest to that person are the ones who
have the most cognitive dissonance. They
have the like by nature because they
were they're manipulated into it. It's
not um you know like consistently it
that's what's shown the people who are
the closest to that type of person are
the ones who are the least likely to see
it and the least likely to accept it
outright. And we see that in, you know,
all the relationships that you and that
we talk about, people who are in
relationships with narcissists, like the
closer you are to them, the harder it is
to accept any intentionality or um you
know that there may not be they may not
be victims, they might just be like
intentional offenders. So um yeah, I
think that there his family was just as victimized
victimized
um by him in certain ways.
Yeah. And people just don't have as much
empathy or sympathy for that side of it.
A lot of times it just doesn't I don't
even think it gets think about to be honest.
honest.
I mean I could see if they were like
him, right?
You know, like if they were behaving
like him certainly, but um you know
Yeah. But it's a it's a cool it's a cool
it was cool thing to be a part of. And
um if anybody's interested in that in
that story and um and I just kind of I
like I like the position that it it
takes. It's not trying to glorify him.
It's not like one more documentary about
him. Certainly central to it, but it's
more about the people that took him
down, you know, which
it was well done. It was a really good
documentary and you had a good role in
it as well that I appreciated. And I
guess last thing to mention about it to
me is the interesting part to me was the
young women at the time that maybe they
were teenagers or college girls. They
were like part of his fan club. They
were so fascinated by him at the time
even though he did all the things that
he did. And the woman in the documentary
was like, "I'm just fascinated by him.
He's just so awesome." or I'm like, "Did
you not read what he did?" It was just
that that cognitive dissonance of that
or just getting sucked in by the
excitement or whatever it was. It was
just it was really interesting to see.
Yeah, he certainly did have a fan club
and I think I remember one person being
interviewed actually. She said something
kind of silly like, "Yeah, when he turns
around and looks at me, I wonder like am
I going to be next?"
That that's who I'm talking about. That girl.
girl.
Yikes. Okay. Um,
but she wasn't even scared, Rich. He was
more excited. Yeah.
Yeah.
Like fanirling like he was a rock star.
Most people weren't uh I mean that's
that's why you got to be very careful
like um he he wasn't scary and he didn't
have any tells, you know, he didn't have
any signs. It's not like he had some
insignia that like you could you could
detect. I mean, he very much blended in
and was very personable in a very
manipulative way, but he was able to get
people disarmed very quickly by his
seemingly, you know, charming and kind
demeanor. And that's how he got his
victims is they wouldn't suspect that he
was up to no good. Um, they weren't they
were intelligent young women. They just,
you know, were taught to help people.
You know, the whole good Samaritan
effect, you know, like if someone's got
a sling and they're trying to lift
something into their car and they look
like they're struggling, like, well, you
go help them. Well, the problem is he
was faking all that So, it was
terrible. I mean just and to say that
I like I also like that documentary
because to say that it wasn't
premeditated or there was some like
entity or compulsion that he was
fighting. Watch how watch how calculated
he was and how planned it was and how
calm he was about the planning and the
premeditating and you'll see that that's
a bunch of nonsense. He knew exactly
what he was doing. He wanted to do it.
Um nothing was going to stop him but
incarceration and death. Period.
Yep. And that's exactly what we saw. And
I think this is a good segue into I
don't think this is something we've ever
touched on yet, but if a parent seems to
think that one of their children might
be narcissistic, what are your
suggestions for that parent?
Yeah, that's a great question. Um, so
let's just take the let's let's take the
disorder away for a second if you don't
mind and just talk about, you know,
traits and tendencies because I think
you would want to do you would want to
ask the same question. How do I
intervene in the best way possible for
my child if they have such high anxiety
that they are it's preventing them from
being able to go to school for example,
right? because we'll talk about maybe
there's there's they're high on
neuroticism, right? That exists. There
are people who avoid having to do the
things that most people conventionally
do easily because they have, you know,
something that's keeping making them
feel so fearful that it's impairing
their life, you know. Um, and we would
in some cases call that avoidant
personality disorder, which also there
are signs and indications of that
happening early early on in life with
kids who it's not just a normal shyness.
It's like they feel like terrified of
how they're going to be perceived or
criticized even before the criticism or
the rejection takes place. So they talk
themselves out of doing things and um
they you know have very very much
difficulty with like school and things
like that. So it's a it's a challenge
for parents is my point. If you're
looking at kids who have traits like you
know grandiosity and entitlement and
they violate generational boundaries.
They don't seem to see authority figures
as their as above them. They see them as
beneath them. They don't have to play by
the rules. Um you know you need to inter
you need to intervene in the sense of
early detection
and you know early preventative measures
because what we're realizing is even
some kids with what are known as callous
unemotional traits if they have the
right support system and the right
behavior modification and the right
interventions they can significantly
decrease you know those maladaptive
traits increase positive traits. So
they've done studies where pre and post
therapy brain scans with children who
have narcissistic traits have shown that
it changes the structure and function of
the brain. Good interventions, proper
interventions. Um a couple of those are
cognitive behavioral interventions and
mentalization based treatment in
children significantly reduce uh the
severity of those those inherent traits.
Um, so I would say early detection.
Don't um make the mistake of thinking
that just providing a loving, nurturing
environment is enough to prevent that.
It's not. Um, of course that's where we
get controversial. Uh, but that's just
not the case. It's not the case that a
warm, loving, nurturing environment is
always the antidote, you know, for for
things like that. Kids who don't have
adversity also present with these traits
and these tendencies. And if you don't
catch them soon, they're going to
persist across the lifespan and it's
going to be harmful for everyone
involved, including the kid, you know,
right? So, let's go over this part of
it. Say a narcissistic kid is throwing a
tantrum and raging in order to get what
they want because their parent has told
them no. And that's their way. And this
is what I've seen personally in my own
life. People will rant and they'll rave
and they'll just make it so unpleasant
for their mother or their father that
they just cave and they give in.
And in that situation, how would you
suggest a parent deals with that? Well,
first of all,
the idea I just want to say this. I I
can't give you like one specific answer,
but I will say the idea that parents are
supposed to know how to handle every
behavioral problem in their own children
is ludicrous because parents are not
experts in psychology and behavior.
Okay? So that's not you're not a bad
parent if you can't manage your child in
some cases because some of ch some
children are unreasonably
defiant, right? It's not um it's it's
just kind of not fair to think that
every parent should know how to do the
right thing every time. What they do
when they cave is they're terrified of,
you know, what's going to happen if they
don't, right? And so that's to me that's
not something that you can just tackle
in the home. That would require
professional intervention. Um you need
somebody who's equipped to one educate
you on how to manage those situations,
but also um somebody else who's an
outsider who can take a more objective
stance and and you know teach that
child, look, this isn't in your best
self-interest to go about trying to get
your way in this way. and and parents I
don't think necessarily are always able
to do that. I don't think that it's a
I'm I'm a bad parent because I can't
successfully make that happen. I think
it I think in these cases, you know,
it's almost like if if a child is active
in an addiction early on, parents aren't
equipped to get them sober. Like they
might need a professional intervention,
they might need, you know,
rehabilitation. So to me, it's the same
thing with behavior. You have to figure
out how severe it is and then get the
get them the help they need sooner than later.
later.
And is there a specific type of
therapist that would be beneficial for
treating that kind of thing? Well, I
would certain, you know, if it's if it's
persistent and it's enduring and it's
really really like not age appropriate
behavior, you know, like if it's if it's
a tantrum, like I'm going to run the
show until I get what I want. I'm going
to break stuff. I mean, I've had people
consult with me about kids throwing
bricks through sliding glass windows,
you know, slashing car tires so they
don't have to go to school. I mean, all
kinds of things. Like, those are not
normal behaviors. Okay. What you don't
want to do is try to understand in the
beginning like why that's happening. So
you don't want to you don't want to take
them to a therapist that's going to try
to analyze well you know I think when
they were three they felt very neglected
because you know they didn't whatever
like I mean yeah that might be slightly
relevant once the behavior is um settled
right so I think you need to look into
how severe it is. Is it oppositionally
defiant? Is it conduct? You know, you
might have to take a child to a facility
or or an agency or a professional who
deals with that type of uh condition
like oppositional defiance or conduct
disorder and things like that. Um things
that are precursors to some pretty
serious problems later in life. And um
not everybody's equipped to handle
children who behave that way, but a lot
of professionals have made it their
life's work to do so. So, I would look
into that. Uh, like I mentioned before,
and this isn't I do have a chapter in my
narcissism book on on narcissistic uh children.
children.
Um they've done studies that show that
cognitive behavioral uh interventions
and mentalizationbased interventions do
really work for the developing child
brain who tends to be a little bit more
in that grandiose entitled um range if
you will. So
and what are your thoughts on positive
and negative reinforcement for kids like
that? Do you think that has any effect?
I mean, I think it's case by case and
you just kind of have to some of it is
trial and error. You have to kind of see
what works. I mean, the really the goal
with anybody who is misbehaving in a way
that's interfering with their life and
other people's life is really to find
out how can we get them to understand
it's in their best self-interest not to
behave that way anymore. Right? Because
if you use the moral if you play the
moral card like this isn't right, you're
not supposed to treat people that they
don't care. I mean, they're they're
motivated because whatever they're doing
is working for them. They're not going
to give it up, you know, they're not
going to give it up freely. So, what you
have to do is convince them this is
actually not the best way to get what
you want. You could actually get more of
what you want, you know, if you do
something different. And it's hard to
convince somebody who has a very rigid
and inflexible personality to see that.
But that's why there's certain
professionals who specialize in that,
you know, in in talking to people who
are seemingly very unreasonable,
non-olaborative. It's not, and again,
going back to Dr. Simon, George Simon,
it's not that they don't see, it's that
they disagree. And it's not that they're
not aware, it's that they don't care.
That's really a hard pill for people to
swallow, especially if you're a parent.
It's a worse pill later in life if you
don't do anything about it.
Well said. I think it's very important
that you just mention that too because I
think where a lot of parents go wrong is
they don't get the proper buy in at
first. If you don't communicate to the
kids why it could be in their best
interest what you're teaching them,
especially for some kid that might be
narcissistic, they're just not going to
buy in to what that parent is selling.
And then and that's how you can tell a
lot of times the parents that have done
well getting a good buy in with their
kids. And I think part of getting that
buy in is communicating to the kids,
hey, you can get more of what you want.
This is how it can serve you if you do
what we're saying here. And I guess an
issue would also be if their tantrums
and negative things seem to be working
very well to be getting what they want,
how do you kind of get them to
unsubscribe from that?
Yeah. in in the in the kids' defense
because I'm not saying that um you know
kids should be held accountable like
adults but at the same time if the kid
has if a child has this idea that this
is the way my brain processes my
environment this is the way I see you
know the world working for me you got to
understand that you have to kind of
accept and understand that that maybe
the way that they perceive and respond
to their environment is less
conventional. So, it's also going to
require a less conventional
intervention. Right? If it if the
empathy and the nurturing are causing
more exploitation, you got to stop the
empathy and nurturing. That doesn't mean
you don't have empathy for your child. I
think it's not a black and white issue
here. It just means that the way to get
the behavior to change, you're not going
to do it by showering them with that
understanding. I've I've seen, you know,
it's kind of funny when you see it like
on a on a television show or something,
but there's like a like a a scene in a a
a sitcom of like a child going into a
public place like a store and throwing
everything on the ground and breaking
stuff and the store attendant is like,
"You need to stop your child." And the
parent says, "Well, we don't use no in
our family." It's like, okay. But there
are people who are getting to the point
where they think that if you say no to a
kid, you're going to invalidate them.
You're going to scar them for life and
they're going to be like utterly
destroyed. And the reality is it's the
opposite. If you enable in to that
capacity, they're going to be, you know,
a holy terror when they're young and
they're going to be the types of people
who think it's okay to walk into a store
and steal from it when they're 50 years
old. So
it's it's got to be the balance. I think
what I see in my age group, which is
basically our age group, is a lot of
parents that were very strict and
overcontrolling. And then the kids when
they have kids, they try to be the
opposite. They'll say, "I don't want to
be like my controlling and very strict
parents. So, I'm going to be the exact
opposite. I'm going to be permissive.
I'm not going to like hammer down on
them at all." And then it just causes
different problems. Is it that overp
protection causes problems and neglect
causes problems? But they both cause problems.
problems.
Yes. Well, and I think this one of the
problems is this dichotomy of it's
either got to be that you have to be
rigid and strict and staunch to the
point where it's, you know,
possibly even abusive or completely lax
to the point where it's, you know,
enabling. So that's just not the case.
You also have to consider the reality
that every kid is different to a degree.
So you it's like um the expression you
can't bake the same cake twice. Like
even if you have two kids in the same
family, even if you have identical
twins, you know, um there are some
intrinsic variations in how their brains
work. They have 100% the same DNA, uh
identical twins, but that doesn't mean
that their brains are functioning
exactly the same. So we need to factor
in those those differences um that are
natural inherent differences. You know,
not everyone responds to the same types
of motivation. Not everybody responds to
the same types of of punishment or
discipline. So that's really important
to consider as well,
right? And if someone's a parent, would
you suggest them trying to screen the
therapist and asking questions such as,
"Well, do you agree that there's a bit
of a genetic component going on here or
do you subscribe more to the trauma
theory model?" What would you suggest in
a screening process for a therapist? I
mean I think
look the reason why the genetic uh topic
matters for treatment is because
when we talk about cause or ideology or
influence you know those interventions
do need to be tailored factoring that
in. So for example, if a if if the cause
of all narcissistic tendencies and
traits even in childhood is child
rearing, is parenting, is environment,
what are the evidence-based treatments
that improve those symptoms or those
characteristics when somebody has
environmentally environmental adversity,
right? So if so if you implement those
interventions and the results don't
change it's po it's often the case that
because the cause was different. So now
you have to try a new angle. You have to
try something different. And this is how
we learn that there was a heritable
component to these traits in the first
place. The the adversity interventions
were failing with certain people. They
were getting worse when they were
treated better in therapy. they were
getting worse when they have this um
unconditional positive regard and this
idea that they were neglected and you
psychoeducate them on how how poorly
they've been treated. Some people eat
that up and run with it and now they
have an arsenal of all kinds of new
weapons. So then you have to go back to
the drawing board. What were we missing?
Maybe some of these people are doing
this on purpose because it's their
disposition to do so. That's not a moral
issue. That's not good or bad. It's
still so what's going to make them stop
doing it, right? And and so that's why
genetics matters. That's why temperament
matters. It's not because you're making
somebody bad, you know, it's that you
you need to factor that in because how
to change something that is more uh
temperamental or more predisposed and
more inflexible is different than how
you're going to change something that
that's environmentally, you know,
influenced. That's that's the only
reason it matters. Um and then there are
some interventions where it doesn't
matter what it is. you you just use it
and it can be effective. So to answer
your question, I'd say you want to
screen a therapist one who who has success
success
uh with that population. If if you're
bringing a 5-year-old in, if you're
bringing a nine-year-old in, or if
you're bringing a 16-year-old in, do
they have experience successfully
treating people who present in that way?
That's what I would want to know. Um,
and then I would also want somebody
who's kind of multidisciplinary,
not somebody who has this theoretical
allegiance that's so staunch that
they're not willing to say, "I tried
this and it was wrong. I'm going to try
this instead." Some people instead of
saying, "I'm going to try this instead,"
they go, "Well, this person's just not
responding." And so that I can't help it
that they don't like the theory. You
know, I mean, the theory is foolproof.
It's just dumb.
There's people who operate that way. You
know, that's danger.
Yeah. I think also too it just there's a
confirmation bias with a lot. You know,
you learn something and you practice it
for 10 20 years and then you want it to
be true. So if it doesn't work, it's got
to be the other person or the patient.
It can't be the the possibility that
this theory might be incomplete. Right.
All right. Now, could you talk about the
fact that we're not a blank slate, nor
are we a finished script? Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, you said it just right there.
We're not a blank slate and we're not a
finished script. Period. There's no such
thing as something that is 100%
deterministic. So, it's impossible
to expect that every single human being
is a blank canvas that you can mold and
shape depending on their environmental
circumstances. It's not true. We have
inherent dispositions. We have
temperament. We have biological
underpinnings that make us vulnerable to
all kinds of things, good and bad. You
know, some people have some people are
graced with the ability to have an
internal resiliency
that helps them not be rattled or
traumatized by the adversity they face
in life. I mean, that's something that's
enviable. That's great. Um, then other
people are on the opposite side of that
same continuum. They have no resiliency.
So when one thing happens, they have
this disproportionate response to it
that can really shape their whole
perception of of their environment and
their in their history. So we have to
factor all of that in. You know, these
biological underpinnings. Um genetics
does not mean deterministic. It does not
mean I'm going to be able to predict
this outcome. There's so many variables
that are involved uh that can contribute
to positive or negative outcomes. But
the idea that somebody can just be a
passive recipient of their environment.
And parents,
think about how many parents I this is
kind of a sad example, but think about
how many parents are disappointed in
their children for not being more like
them or not being what they wanted them
to be because they they poured their
heart and soul into trying to make them
a certain something and they didn't
become that thing. That's proof right
there that your environment can't be
100% deterministic. There's other things
that were at play there, you know. Um,
and those are sad stories where parents
tried their best to make somebody
something and then they were
disappointed that they didn't become
that thing because they have their own
uniqueness and their, you know, their
own uh their own interests and things
that are not per perfectly in alignment
with their their parents. Um, so I think
the genetic conversation should be
something that is um an opportunity for
people to start learning about
themselves. It's not just personality
disorders that are genetically
influenced. It's personality. It's mine.
It's yours. Everybody, you know, um, we
have aspects of ourselves that are more
fixed than not. That doesn't mean they
can't be changed or altered to a degree,
but it certainly means, you know, it's worth
worth
getting to know yourself in that way,
you know, right? And I think there's
some people that they do get discouraged
by hearing about this genetic aspect of
things because I think their brain just
goes straight to determinism like you
said. And the people that get
discouraged by that, what would you say
I just I don't I don't think that um one
I don't think that environmental
determinism is any more convenient. personally.
personally.
In fact, it's more confusing because
what was it about that environment that
really was the thing, the catalyst that
made somebody something or not
something? I think that's more of a wild
goose chase than the idea that look, we
have these identifiable traits that have
existed since human beings have been a
species. And there's this ancient human
DNA that we have to contend with. You
know, there's these traits that we have
that served very important purposes at
some point in history. Some of them
we've outgrown. They're no longer
civilized according to what we value
today. And so we need to contend with
that and see what we can do about it.
Right? We if we reward it, it's going to
persist. And we've done that in a lot of
culturally and and in society. We've
done a lot of rewarding things that are
shouldn't be rewarded, you know. Um but
if we just see it as it's kind of a
lottery too like we all we we can't we
we we can't predict with certainty um
what our DNA differences are going to be
you know it's a it's you get two
different people with two different you
know two different
uh startup material we'll say and they
come together and then there's all kinds
of intrinsic variation that's taking
place from the moment of conception. So,
but this idea that it's completely uh
immovable or inflexible is just not
true. There are severe cases like we
were just talking about Ted Bundy. There
really wasn't anything that could have
prevented him from doing what he did
really. I mean, look it, they tried to
incarcerate him and he found ways to
escape and he and he didn't escape and
stop doing what he did. In fact, it
amplified him. I think he was so enraged
that he was locked up that he went on
these sprees after that. like he got
even worse and more reckless. Like I'm
going to show you that if you lock me
up, I'm gonna I'm gonna, you know, I'm
gonna punish you. I'm gonna punish you
for it. So, but those are extreme
extreme rare cases. Um, I don't think
that that's something that every parent
needs to be necessarily worrying about,
right? I guess those extreme cases are
the ones they'd be concerned about. But
I interrupted you. What were you saying?
Well, I was just going to say if if that
were my kid Yeah. I think it's the
responsible thing to do for society to
get them removed from society if it
would be heartbreaking, but it would
also be the most responsible and and and
right thing to do in those severe cases.
It's just not something that most people
are going to have to be worrying about.
I gotcha. And I think another
interesting comment I saw on one of your
videos was they were saying how
they were not sure how good talking
about the genetic aspect will actually
be in practice for society. And the
example they used was obesity where
people know what causes obesity now. And
there's certainly I think a genetic
component in there with obesity as well,
but they also know unhealthy diet, lack
of exercise, high carb and sugar
consumption, they all contribute to
obesity for sure, but the fact that
people know all about it doesn't really
improve it. And the obesity numbers kind
of show that as well. What would you say
to that kind of sentiment? Well,
Well,
let's use an example of let's say a
very very fit but also just genetically
predisposed to being thin. you know, uh,
adopts a a child and that child has a
genetic, you know, predisposition to
having to being heavier when they
consume the same foods and live the same
lifestyle as this family that they
adopted into. Um,
what if that family doesn't think that
genes have anything to do with it and
they shame that child for not being more
like them
and they say, "You just don't have
enough willpower. uh you don't have
enough respect for our lifestyle. I
mean, so you can do a lot of damage to
somebody to their psyche and and um a
lot of harm to somebody if you don't
factor in the reality that some people
have um a harder go at certain aspects
of life. And one of those things is
weight gain and and the capacity for
weight gain. Um and even Robert Plowman
talks about this that you you you really
need to understand that this is not a
doom sentence. This kind of information
is really really important um to try to
understand what are the inter
interventions that are going to work for
those a bit more fixed inflexible traits
that seem to be more stubborn and what
are the interventions that are going to
work um from the environmental
influence. So, you mentioned the ones
that are helpful for environmental
influence. Um, you know, diet and
exercise and those types of things.
Also, I would want to know if I was at
genetic risk for heart disease because I
would want to be a little bit better at,
you know, trying to, you know, mitigate
those consequences versus somebody who
can eat and drink whatever the hell they
want for 90 years and not have to worry
about their heart. So, I just think that
that information is is only adding more
value to the the conversation, right?
right?
I'm sorry. I was just going to say I
think it's compassionate. Like, if I had
a if I had something that was so
stubborn and inflexible in me and I
couldn't see it and I kept trying to
repair it, thinking that I could just go
talk to somebody about it and it
wouldn't get better. I'd want somebody
to say, "Look, man, this is something
that you probably have more in you." And
so sorting it out the way you have tried
to is not working. You might need to try
something else. I would be very pleased
and and you know uh appreciative of that advice,
advice,
right? And I think the truth just always
needs to be said. Whatever the truth is
is what people need to be working with.
Anything other than the truth to me
isn't really that helpful. It's more of
a coddling. It's trying to protect them
from what? and it's kind of treating
them like they're childish or something.
No, let the people know the truth and
then do what they can from there.
Yeah, I agree. I think that the truth I
think transparency and authenticity
um I think people are very afraid to
hurt people's feelings or like there's
going to be more damage if they tell the
truth than if they don't. I've never
really I've never really encountered that.
that.
Yeah, I haven't either. I think you got
to give them the facts. Give them the
facts. That way, everyone has them. What
people do with those facts, that's a
different story, right? No one can
control how everyone's going to act with
those facts. It's a tool. All of the
education and the science is simply a tool.
tool.
Yeah. It's also not an excuse. I get a
lot of um push back saying, "Oh, you
know, oh great, now all of the
narcissistic parents are off the hook
because you said it's genetic." Anyways,
I did not say that abuse doesn't affect
I mean, give me a break. That dichomous
thinking is so silly. That does not
exonerate anybody who's abusive. It
doesn't. Um
that that's just not the case. Saying
something, seeing that somebody is
predisposed to be a little bit or a lot
more manipulative than others doesn't
mean that parents now all of a sudden
get to like run a muck. That's not what
it's saying. you know, you still you
could be abusive to a manipulative kid
if you don't try to get them to stop
being manipulative. In my opinion,
that's abuse.
You know, I could see that. And I think
it's like you said, I think, yeah, there
probably are going to be some
narcissistic parents that do really like
that genetic component because they're
they are going to use it as a way to
avoid accountability. But that does not
make with the education wrong. That's
not the science. That's like you said in
that video where you addressed it. It
says more about that parent that's using
it in that way than it does anything
about the the science.
But wouldn't they do that regardless? Yes,
Yes,
of course they would.
They do it in like I you know if you're
if there if there's a um it doesn't
matter if it's genetic or environmental
or or biblical or spiritual, they're
going to use it for self-enhancement.
They're not going to use it fairly.
That's why narcissism is a problem, you know.
know.
Absolutely. And I think here's another
one to go over. There was this super
viral Instagram reel I saw the other day
and it starts with this woman talking
about how children have cut her off or
have estranged from their parents. And
then it cuts to this woman who says,
"No, no, that just never happens when
the parent is actually healthy. It only
happens when that parent is narcissistic
or toxic because no child is ever gonna
cut themselves off from a healthy
parent. What are your thoughts on that?
Well, that's just that's categorically
untrue because in when I was in my
clinical practice, I've seen it happen
countless times. It's interesting that
people have these all or nothing
reactions to this type of thing. when
you sit with like 40 different people
like a week for, you know, years and
years and years, you hear all kinds of
stories that nobody else hears about
people. Parents get rejected by their
own kids for a lot of reasons. um and
completely estranged and they uh I've
I've had I know I've worked with
children who stopped coming to
counseling because they
when they turned 16 or 17 they left
their parents' home because they didn't
want to have anything to do with them
and they became estranged and that's why
they stopped coming because they didn't
want anything to do with their their
parents and they got old enough to to
and and I kept in touch with the parents
and they never like heard from their kid
for years unless it was something that
they wanted like money or something. Um
and the parents were not terrible
people. There are uh there are kids who
um young kids and adult children uh who who
who
elect to completely remove themselves
from their parents' lives and
they don't allow them to see their
grandchildren or anything like that. And
it's and the ch and the parents are not narcissistic.
narcissistic.
That's not true.
Yeah. And that's how I saw it, too. I
think people just can't help themselves
but to use that broad brush. They paint
it in black and white and they'll say,
"Nope, it must have been a narcissistic
parent because no child would ever
remove themselves from a healthy
situation." And even that, like I don't
mean I mean like no disrespect, but kind
of like that's arrogant. That's arrogant
to think that you know that
that you know that out of the 8 billion
people, you know, that are currently
alive right now that not one of them
would would leave their their family of
origin unless those parents were
narcissistic. I mean, wow. That's that's
a gift you should monetize if you know
that. It's crazy to me. And I mean, I'm
only saying this because this this reel
went super viral and a lot of people
were agreeing with it. I said what you
just said, though. I said, "Hey, you
can't you can't know what every family
situation was. You're going to act like
there is no such thing as a child who is
a narcissist, borderline psychopath.
Like, you don't think that happens?"
Well, it's also the same thing that
there's no such thing as a child who has
a personality disorder before the age of
18. A lot of people think that, well,
then you've never been a clinician
because in clinical populations, we take
that reality for granted because it's so
frequent. Um, therapists encounter kids
who meet the full criteria for
personality disorders. It's not true.
People think it is, but it's not true
that you have to wait till someone's 18
to diagnose a personality disorder.
That's not true. You can diagnose a
personality disorder before the age of
18. The one exception to that is
antisocial personality. the precursor
has to be conduct disorder and you have
to prove that conduct disorder um was
present before the age of 15 but you
call it conduct disorder until and if it
persists then when they're 18 then then
the kids who those kids some of them do
end up being diagnosed with antisocial
but there are you can diagnose
narcissistic PD you can diagnose
borderline personality disorder before
the age of 18 um and they're diagnosed
in in people who present with those
enduring and pervasive patterns period.
Um, another really interesting thing I
hear from sadly even very reputable
professionals is that they say, "I have
never worked with a cluster B who
doesn't have trauma."
And it's like your practice is not the
universe. It's not the world. Your your
practice is yours. and then you can't
speak for everybody else's clinical
practice. Just because you either missed
it or maybe it is true that you've never
worked with one doesn't mean they don't
exist. No, those are two completely
different things. But um I hear that a
lot. It's it blows my mind. I would you
you can't say that. You just can't say it.
it.
No, you can't. I mean, I think people
they forget that all narcissistic
adults, borderline adults, psychopathic
adults, they were once kids. They were
kids at some point, right? And they I
guess they think, "No, when they were
kids, they were just angels and
everything was their parents' fault. And
then they meet this magic threshold
where now all of a sudden they're a
parent. Now they can be the bad guy now
that they're the parent." And it's like,
is that really their worldview? And I think
think yeah,
yeah,
I think that happens because
to even mention that there could be such
a thing as a narcissistic kid, they
think it invalidates people that had a
narcissistic parent. I think that's what
they're thinking with it, but it's
certainly not true.
I think it's hard for people to think
that kids intentionally misbehave or
that they have um, you know, callous
traits that that make them, you know,
kind of different from the beginning,
you know. But we we you you either
immerse you if you're immersed in that
life like if you're somebody who works
in in professionally with populations of
people the ones who you know there's
severe cases of individuals and moderate
cases of individuals children who have
no remorse for anything that they're
doing they enjoy it because it it works
for them they're they're they are wired
differently whether we like it or not
they they get more pleased with uh
deception and manipulation
than they do with equality and
collaboration. It's just it's just a
reality. Um
it's not true that we're all we all
start out the same. It's just not true.
100%. And here's something I wanted to
ask you. Mhm.
Do you see a lot of narcissists bring in
a romantic partner or even a child of
theirs to a psychiatrist to some sort of
licensed professional and then they'll
start saying, "My kid's a narcissist.
You need to give them a diagnosis." Or,
"My partner's a narcissist. There's
something wrong with them. You need to
fix them." And this is something I've
seen a lot of narcissistic people do.
They'll bring their partner or their
child thinking they're all the problem,
right? and they're they're it's just on
them. And then they try to get this
diagnosis for their partner or their
child, but then they use that diagnosis
against them, weaponize it against them,
hold it over their head, use it to
manipulate and control others. Have you
seen this? Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. And that's kind of like a red flag
right there, like what's the intention
for the treatment? Because people who
are genuinely going in for treatment,
they have a collaborative stance.
They're typically experiencing internal
conflict because they feel they are
responsible for the things that are
going wrong in their life. And so for
somebody to come in like right off the
bat and say, "I think my daughter is
borderline or I think my wife, you know,
is doing this and possibly is this or
whatever." I think that's that's a red
flag that um it it's revealing a lot
about this person and and their
intentions. And I' I've seen that. Um
I've even had them try to convince me
that their abuse was justified,
right? Because their kid is so
disrespectful that they had to slap them
and spit them spit on their face. And
you know, how dare they not appreciate
me as a father. And and they had the
audacity to call CPS. Well, if you slap
your kid and you spit in their face,
they should have called CPS. Um but they
they say those things and they and you
know, a true narcissist doesn't have any
idea why that's a problem. It's like
they just expect you to align with them.
So, but yeah, I've seen it plenty of
times. I've also seen um
um sadly I' I've Yeah, I've seen I've
seen a lot of Yeah, it's it's common for
parents to pathize their children when
the the parent is the one with the problem.
problem.
And I think and that's what confuses
people too. People will What gave me the
idea about that was people would say
narcissists will never reach out for
help. They'll never get help. And I
said, "Mostly true." But with that big
caveat, a lot of times they'll reach out
for help, but they're going to act like
the problem's someone else. Oh, this
person's the problem here. It's not me,
but I need you to help me deal with this
other person or give this other person a
diagnosis or fill in the blank.
Yeah, I think that's kind of a
misconception. It's not that they don't
reach out for help. They don't reach out
for help because they think they're
narcissistic and they need to change,
but they very frequently reach out to
help um and they want to accompany the
person they think is the problem to
treatment. They also are found in
populations that aren't necessarily like
voluntary. So, they're found in, you
know, mandated situations where they
either they either have to go to a
rehabilitation center or they have to go
to treatment because they're they're in
trouble. You know, I mean, that's where
you see a lot of them. And again,
they're not coming in saying, "Oh, yeah,
this happened. I I broke the law cuz I'm
a narcissist or a psychopath and now I'm
mandated to come to treatment." That's
not what they're doing. They're coming
in as a victim of the of the system. But
then, if a good therapist, you know,
assesses them properly, they're going to
see, okay, well, now I understand what's
going on here. This is this is a
personality disorder. this isn't um this
isn't that that's the that's the main
reason why you're here even though
that's not what got you here. You know,
what got you here may have been a a
probation violation or or some you know,
a breaking the law of some kind or
something like that. Um so it's it's not
that they're not in treatment and it's
not that they're not seeking it. It's
that they're not seeking it and going in
and saying, "I need help." Just like
someone goes in, I need help. I have
trauma symptoms. I I was in a car
accident. I can't drive a car. I need
help. They don't do that. They don't
come in and say, I manipulate people and
exploit them for my own
self-enhancement. I need help with that.
That's what is meant when when we say
that they don't seek help. But they're
in clinical settings quite often.
I Yes, I've seen it for sure. And I
think to me the victims a lot of times
they're going to be more confused. Often
they will blame themselves a lot of
times. That's one of the indicators for
me. But what would be your suggestions
for other professionals or therapists to
distinguish between the two, the victim
versus the abuser?
Um, well,
I I don't think a lot of people are
going to like this, but um I'm borrowing
this from um Carol Taveris.
There's a mistake that a lot of
therapists make where they think that
they are advocates before they are
scientists. M
and a therapist, anyone who's who has
the the legal authority to diagnose a
condition, whe whether you're a medical
professional and you're diagnosing a
certain kind of physical condition or
medical condition or you're a clinician
and you have the authority to diagnose
on a medical record um somebody's mental
state, you are a scientist before you
are an advocate. So you need to not and
and the reason why that's relevant is
because scientists are skeptical. You
don't take something everyone says at
face value the moment they call you and
walk into your office and they and you
treat them. You don't assume that
everything they tell you is 100%
accurate. And you don't assume that it's
the truth. Because even if someone's not
a narcissist, a lot of people don't
often know why they are doing or feeling
the way they're feeling. So you can't
take them at face value. You can't take
their word for it. That's why they're
coming to you. They don't know. So, you
need to act. You need to reassume your
role as scientist before advocate. And
and I think people don't understand
that. That involves a healthy level of
skepticism. You have to ask questions in
your mind when someone's talking to you.
Is that true? I wonder if that's true.
Um, that makes people uncomfortable, but
that's what makes someone a licensed
professional. They have that authority.
Um, advocacy comes after you get the the
right the true story, you know, that the
history. That doesn't mean that you're
not along the way you're not empathic
and all of that stuff. That's not what
I'm trying to say. I'm just trying to
say you don't take everything at face
value. You know, I think that's a great
point. I think too many people, they see
skepticism and questions as invalidating
or maybe even retraumatizing. I think
that's the equation they use in their
heads a lot of time, but it's not a good
equation for that. And I think what I
would say to them is narcissists will go
in often they'll say they are the victim
and if you just go straight to advocacy
for them, well now you're doing it the
wrong way. You're going down the wrong
road here. So I think that's what I
would say to someone that's tempted to
do the advocacy route first. No, you
want to make sure you're not talking to
the abusive person first. Yeah, I had a
what before I was uh a therapist before
I even went to grad school. I I had a
therapist and he would always ask that
question and it would really make me
mad. I would tell him something and I
would I would fill him in on my week. I
did this, this, and this and then I was
talking to this person and they said
this and can you believe this and this
and that and then he he would just go, I
wonder if that's true.
I would get so mad. Then the next week I
would be like, "Yeah, you were right. I
was wrong."
It it it builds character. It helps you.
It helps strengthen people's character.
It helps them self-reflect better. Um
but if he just said, "You're right. God,
what a victim you are." I mean, all
those people, shame on themselves, I
wouldn't have learned anything. You
know, so that that's that type of
insight oriented therapy is even helpful
to be skeptical rather than you can give
someone positive regard, respect them as
a human being, and then call them out on
their at the same time. You can do
all of those things. It doesn't have to
be one or the other.
I totally agree. I think people just
struggle. They struggle with that more
than one thing is true. They say if
you're a skeptic, that means you're
invalidating. And it's like, no, you can
do both. you can try to get to the
bottom of it and do your due diligence.
I I think that's a misunderstanding too
in some of my uh content like I get a
lot of people on now I'm putting more on
YouTube and and you you have an agenda
and you're invalidating people who when
you say it's not trauma. It's like well
first of all um to make a compelling
argument you have to like back your
argument. you don't you don't go down
the middle like you don't give this
watery neutral argument that so yes I I
do have an agenda I want to get the
point across that this data has been
swept under the rug for 70 years and
we're tired of it because it's not
helpful to do that I also want you to
consider that I'm talking about
something specific in this video and
then maybe if you watch another video
you'll see that I'm talking about
something else in another video it
doesn't all have to be all-encompassed
in one, you know, argument or one
conversation. You you need to ask
question clarifying questions before you
jump to these conclusions that anyone is
deterministic or, you know, I I just
think it's it's really hard, I think,
for people not to have that knee-jerk
reaction and then start dichotomizing
just, you know, going into the black or
white thinking. Um, I think we're all
certainly guilty of it from time to
time, but I think some people tend to
lean on it for most things and that's
kind of problematic, you know.
Absolutely. And here's another question
I get a lot. Are all narcissists abusive?
Oh, that's a great question. Um, I Okay,
I would say no.
I would say no.
If you look at it from a continuum, if
you look at it from the perspective of a
trait model continuum, which is
typically what I think is the most
reasonable way to look at it, if you
look at it from a categorical aspect,
yes, they're all abusive because you have this, this, and this and all of
have this, this, and this and all of them, and that's it. However, I think
them, and that's it. However, I think even something like grandiosity or
even something like grandiosity or something like lack of empathy is
something like lack of empathy is expressed
expressed differently in different people because
differently in different people because in addition to the narcissistic traits
in addition to the narcissistic traits that people have, they also do have
that people have, they also do have other traits that are not narcissistic.
other traits that are not narcissistic. Human beings are complex. So even
Human beings are complex. So even narcissists have certain personality
narcissists have certain personality traits that do operate in the um
traits that do operate in the um average range, right? It's how they they
average range, right? It's how they they get through life. you know, they can be
get through life. you know, they can be conscientious at work but lacking
conscientious at work but lacking conscientiousness in personal
conscientiousness in personal relationships. Um,
relationships. Um, the reason why, okay, maybe I'm going to
the reason why, okay, maybe I'm going to rephrase that. I think that somebody
rephrase that. I think that somebody who's narcissistic in nature is is a is
who's narcissistic in nature is is a is a personality that that constitutes
a personality that that constitutes abuse. Not every person on the receiving
abuse. Not every person on the receiving end of that narcissist is going to
end of that narcissist is going to experience it as abuse.
experience it as abuse. That's what I mean. uh your own
That's what I mean. uh your own personality and your own temperament
personality and your own temperament might give you a resiliency against a
might give you a resiliency against a certain type of narcissist.
certain type of narcissist. So an example of that is an example that
So an example of that is an example that was used often in trainings uh for
was used often in trainings uh for personality disorder specialization
personality disorder specialization Michael Scott from the office that
Michael Scott from the office that character
character arguably narcissistic
is he abusive? It depends on who you're talking to,
It depends on who you're talking to, which character you're talking to.
which character you're talking to. Does that make sense?
Does that make sense? Yeah, if that makes sense. I mean, to
Yeah, if that makes sense. I mean, to me, I think many narcissists are
me, I think many narcissists are abusive, but it would be a mistake to
abusive, but it would be a mistake to say all because there can be lesser
say all because there can be lesser severe ones that may not be as much. And
severe ones that may not be as much. And like you said, it can depend also on the
like you said, it can depend also on the other person's experience and how
other person's experience and how they're taking it in. I think I think
they're taking it in. I think I think the only issue I would have with people
the only issue I would have with people talking like that would be when some
talking like that would be when some people will say, "Well, not all
people will say, "Well, not all narcissists are abusive," as a way to
narcissists are abusive," as a way to dismiss and invalidate real experiences
dismiss and invalidate real experiences of abuse. I think that might be an
of abuse. I think that might be an issue. But to say all narcissists are
issue. But to say all narcissists are abusive, I agree. I don't think that is
abusive, I agree. I don't think that is true.
true. Well, it's not the same thing as saying
Well, it's not the same thing as saying they deserve sympathy or they deserve a
they deserve sympathy or they deserve a break from from how they are, that's not
break from from how they are, that's not what it is. I'm just saying like if you
what it is. I'm just saying like if you put 10 people in a room with the same
put 10 people in a room with the same narcissist, they're not going to
narcissist, they're not going to unanimously say, "I was abused this much
unanimously say, "I was abused this much in this way." They're going to respond
in this way." They're going to respond and perceive that experience
and perceive that experience differently. And some people are going
differently. And some people are going to write that person off as a joke.
to write that person off as a joke. Other people are going to be deeply
Other people are going to be deeply wounded by that person. Um, some people
wounded by that person. Um, some people are going to have a little bit of both.
are going to have a little bit of both. But it's not, that's what I'm trying to
But it's not, that's what I'm trying to say.
say. Please hear me when I say I did not just
Please hear me when I say I did not just discount anybody's experience of an
discount anybody's experience of an abusive person. That is not what you
abusive person. That is not what you heard me say. What I'm saying is um we
heard me say. What I'm saying is um we respond to different people differently,
respond to different people differently, you know. Yeah, I agree with that. I
you know. Yeah, I agree with that. I think and al ultimately that's why I
think and al ultimately that's why I usually say the behaviors are more
usually say the behaviors are more important anyway than a lot of times the
important anyway than a lot of times the people's label. It's like what how are
people's label. It's like what how are they treating you? Are they
they treating you? Are they disrespecting you? Are they doing some
disrespecting you? Are they doing some of the other narcissistic manipulation
of the other narcissistic manipulation tactics? That's what matters. Whether
tactics? That's what matters. Whether they're a full-blown narcissist or
they're a full-blown narcissist or narcissistic, that doesn't matter,
narcissistic, that doesn't matter, you know. And people that understand
you know. And people that understand this these these nuances. I was working
this these these nuances. I was working I was spoke with someone the other day
I was spoke with someone the other day and she said, "My partner gets along
and she said, "My partner gets along perfectly and seamlessly with our kids
perfectly and seamlessly with our kids and they love my partner and my partner
and they love my partner and my partner doesn't treat them like dirt. My partner
doesn't treat them like dirt. My partner treats me like dirt.
treats me like dirt. I'm being abused." But but but
I'm being abused." But but but so and the the reason why that was
so and the the reason why that was relevant is because we were talking
relevant is because we were talking about well that right there shows the
about well that right there shows the capacity and the intentionality. It's
capacity and the intentionality. It's being reserved for one person but
being reserved for one person but they're somehow finding a way to control
they're somehow finding a way to control themselves with the other with someone
themselves with the other with someone else. Um so that speaks to some some
else. Um so that speaks to some some intentionality there, right? Like
intentionality there, right? Like someone's being targeted and someone
someone's being targeted and someone else is being rewarded. Um but so even
else is being rewarded. Um but so even people who are abused, you know, are
people who are abused, you know, are able to say, "Well, they're not abusing
able to say, "Well, they're not abusing everyone."
everyone." [Music]
[Music] Well, to clarify that, I think there's
Well, to clarify that, I think there's also a big difference between someone
also a big difference between someone who doesn't abuse everyone and someone
who doesn't abuse everyone and someone who abuses no one. Like, are there
who abuses no one. Like, are there narcissists that abuse no one? I would
narcissists that abuse no one? I would still say yes.
still say yes. But what do you think? Um,
But what do you think? Um, I I guess, you know, I'm going to cop
I I guess, you know, I'm going to cop out on this because I think it's going
out on this because I think it's going to be controversial, but I we'd have to
to be controversial, but I we'd have to then define abuse, like what what what
then define abuse, like what what what constitutes abuse? Are we talking about
constitutes abuse? Are we talking about somebody being invalidated? Is that
somebody being invalidated? Is that abusive?
abusive? Um, if if we if we're talking strictly
Um, if if we if we're talking strictly about being invalidated, I would say I
about being invalidated, I would say I could pretty much say like a blanket
could pretty much say like a blanket statement that all narcissists
statement that all narcissists invalidate.
invalidate. So if that's considered abuse, then yes,
So if that's considered abuse, then yes, they're all abusive.
they're all abusive. I mean, are we talking about
I mean, are we talking about exploitation? Are we talking about I
exploitation? Are we talking about I mean, like you have So there's a fine
mean, like you have So there's a fine line here, but now we have to kind of
line here, but now we have to kind of define what we mean by abuse because I
define what we mean by abuse because I don't I don't think that that's going to
don't I don't think that that's going to necessarily be a unanimous definition
necessarily be a unanimous definition either, you know.
either, you know. Very good point. And I think that's
Very good point. And I think that's something to explore perhaps in the next
something to explore perhaps in the next time we speak and go deeper into that.
time we speak and go deeper into that. What is actually abuse? What is what
What is actually abuse? What is what does that look like? Just like we needed
does that look like? Just like we needed to go over the definition of narcissism.
to go over the definition of narcissism. Oh, what is narcissism? What do people
Oh, what is narcissism? What do people mean when they say the word narcissist?
mean when they say the word narcissist? What do they mean when they say NPD? All
What do they mean when they say NPD? All those definitions are important.
those definitions are important. Yeah. And I think a lot of the people
Yeah. And I think a lot of the people who disagree in those discussions are
who disagree in those discussions are actually defining those terms
actually defining those terms differently and they might not even know
differently and they might not even know that. You know, there's there's been a
that. You know, there's there's been a historical shift uh and evolution of
historical shift uh and evolution of even how the term narcissism has been
even how the term narcissism has been used in clinical practice and then
used in clinical practice and then culturally, philosophically. So, are we
culturally, philosophically. So, are we even talking about the same thing? Um,
even talking about the same thing? Um, oftentimes, no, but we think we are, so
oftentimes, no, but we think we are, so we're arguing and we're not even talking
we're arguing and we're not even talking about the same thing. Um, but I just
about the same thing. Um, but I just don't like I I don't like ever doing the
don't like I I don't like ever doing the all or nothing argument. I just think
all or nothing argument. I just think it's because if there's one exception to
it's because if there's one exception to any rule, then that argument needs to be
any rule, then that argument needs to be revised, you know. Um,
revised, you know. Um, yeah. I mean, and I would agree with
yeah. I mean, and I would agree with that, too. Ultimately, the question
that, too. Ultimately, the question doesn't matter. What matters is how each
doesn't matter. What matters is how each individual person is treating you. So,
individual person is treating you. So, when an individual asks that question,
when an individual asks that question, how are you being treated? That's what
how are you being treated? That's what matters. I think the only people who
matters. I think the only people who really care about that question are some
really care about that question are some of the self-aware narcissist types that
of the self-aware narcissist types that are kind of trying to defend the image
are kind of trying to defend the image of narcissism and narcissists. They're
of narcissism and narcissists. They're the ones that I see pose that question.
the ones that I see pose that question. But for everyone else, it's what it
But for everyone else, it's what it doesn't matter. But I will say that how
doesn't matter. But I will say that how how narcissism is defined
how narcissism is defined um clinically, it's an abusive way of
um clinically, it's an abusive way of being. I will say that because when
being. I will say that because when somebody lacks empathy and they're
somebody lacks empathy and they're comfortable exploiting and they don't
comfortable exploiting and they don't see anything wrong with it, I I would
see anything wrong with it, I I would consider that to be an abusive uh way of
consider that to be an abusive uh way of socializing in general. Um I just don't
socializing in general. Um I just don't think it's going to have the same impact
think it's going to have the same impact on every individual, you know.
on every individual, you know. So, just going back to the office
So, just going back to the office example, Michael Scott like really was
example, Michael Scott like really was he mistreated the people he dated, but I
he mistreated the people he dated, but I don't think the character of Jim was
don't think the character of Jim was necessarily feeling abused by him. I
necessarily feeling abused by him. I think he wrote him off as kind of
think he wrote him off as kind of ridiculous most times. Um, so we're
ridiculous most times. Um, so we're talking about the same type of
talking about the same type of personality profile and this is all
personality profile and this is all fiction of course, but like that's, you
fiction of course, but like that's, you know, that's why you get a lot of people
know, that's why you get a lot of people feeling invalidated because other people
feeling invalidated because other people will say, "Well, my experience of that
will say, "Well, my experience of that person is that they're just kind of kind
person is that they're just kind of kind of a joke, but they're not like I'm not
of a joke, but they're not like I'm not offended by them." And then other people
offended by them." And then other people will say, "How dare you say that? I
will say, "How dare you say that? I mean, they're ruining my life." So
mean, they're ruining my life." So there's some subjectivity there, you
there's some subjectivity there, you know, and also you got to factor in the
know, and also you got to factor in the image management, the impression
image management, the impression management that narcissists are good at.
management that narcissists are good at. They reserve a lot of their uh real
They reserve a lot of their uh real horrible abuse for the the people that
horrible abuse for the the people that are closer to them, right? So yeah,
are closer to them, right? So yeah, absolutely. Well, Peter, I always feel
absolutely. Well, Peter, I always feel like the time flies by with you. We
like the time flies by with you. We could talk for further hours, but any
could talk for further hours, but any other closing thoughts you have for us
other closing thoughts you have for us today?
today? Uh, no. I think we wanted to talk about
Uh, no. I think we wanted to talk about um
um James Fallon James Fallon at some point.
James Fallon James Fallon at some point. Maybe we can do that next time. But um I
Maybe we can do that next time. But um I think Well, just real quick, I think
think Well, just real quick, I think your question was people are asking he
your question was people are asking he had a psychopathic brain was aware of
had a psychopathic brain was aware of it, but he wasn't behaving in that way.
it, but he wasn't behaving in that way. Well, you need to read his story because
Well, you need to read his story because that's actually not true. He admits to
that's actually not true. He admits to having been very risk-taking and putting
having been very risk-taking and putting people in harm's way and exploiting
people in harm's way and exploiting people his whole life. He just didn't
people his whole life. He just didn't call it psychopathy until he discovered,
call it psychopathy until he discovered, you know, his his uh neuroscience
you know, his his uh neuroscience research, but he was actually behaving
research, but he was actually behaving as a psychopath and and admitted to
as a psychopath and and admitted to being very insincere in his marriage and
being very insincere in his marriage and um putting his brother's life at risk
um putting his brother's life at risk for his own selfish needs and things
for his own selfish needs and things like that. So, uh just wanted to touch
like that. So, uh just wanted to touch on that real quick.
on that real quick. No, good. Because I people were trying
No, good. Because I people were trying to use that as a way to dismiss the
to use that as a way to dismiss the whole genetic thing. Like now what about
whole genetic thing. Like now what about this one case? It dismisses all of it.
this one case? It dismisses all of it. He has to prove that wrong for his
He has to prove that wrong for his theory to be correct. It's like I don't
theory to be correct. It's like I don't even think they understand. It's not
even think they understand. It's not necessarily your theory. You're learning
necessarily your theory. You're learning from all the other professionals as well
from all the other professionals as well that are are talking about this stuff.
that are are talking about this stuff. The twin studies, the genetic component.
The twin studies, the genetic component. So whether it's Dr. Robert Plowman, uh
So whether it's Dr. Robert Plowman, uh Turnberg, that's his name. Yeah.
Turnberg, that's his name. Yeah. All of them, right? That's that's where
All of them, right? That's that's where this is coming from.
this is coming from. Yeah. It's not coming from my the
Yeah. It's not coming from my the laboratory of my mind. It's it's coming
laboratory of my mind. It's it's coming from metaanalyses and and the pioneers
from metaanalyses and and the pioneers in the field who were courageous enough
in the field who were courageous enough to challenge the theories that weren't
to challenge the theories that weren't complete. So,
complete. So, yeah,
yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that. But again,
I'm glad you mentioned that. But again, thanks for coming on the show again,
thanks for coming on the show again, Peter. It's always a pleasure having you
Peter. It's always a pleasure having you on. Thank you very much, Shared.
Click on any text or timestamp to jump to that moment in the video
Share:
Most transcripts ready in under 5 seconds
One-Click Copy125+ LanguagesSearch ContentJump to Timestamps
Paste YouTube URL
Enter any YouTube video link to get the full transcript
Transcript Extraction Form
Most transcripts ready in under 5 seconds
Get Our Chrome Extension
Get transcripts instantly without leaving YouTube. Install our Chrome extension for one-click access to any video's transcript directly on the watch page.
Chrome Extension