The core theme of this discussion is the power of embracing authenticity, owning mistakes, and leveraging humor and vulnerability to build stronger brands and connect with audiences. It emphasizes that perfection is an illusion and that genuine human experiences, including failures, are often more relatable and impactful than polished facades.
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Hello everyone and thank you for joining
us on fully managed. Thank you Justin so
much for joining me today. I really
appreciate it.
>> Thanks for having me. Appreciate the invite.
invite.
>> Of course. I thank you so much. So today
as usual we are going to start with a
game. I like to personalize these games
for each guests as our listeners know.
So you are having a very catered game to
you and your likeness. So
>> exciting. This is what's going to h this
game is called the beautiful disaster.
So um
I'm going to give you a bunch of
scenarios and you are going to choose
whether you are going to let it burn
which means embrace the chaos and make
it a part of your brand
>> or fix it in post which means control
the narrative clean it up a little. >> Okay,
>> Okay,
>> that's all good. Okay.
>> All right. First scenario is your
campaign goes viral but for the wrong reason.
reason.
>> Let it burn.
>> Let it burn. What would uh Can you give
a more a little more context?
>> Yeah. Uh people love characters, not
brands. Characters make mistakes. People
make mistakes. You earn trust by
making mistakes and then apologizing or
making up for it or sometimes even just
distracting people if it's a tiny
mistake that didn't hurt anybody. So
that's how we feel about things. Don't
don't panic under the spotlight. Just
start dancing.
>> I definitely agree. That's a great
that's a great uh quote to put in. I
really like that. Okay, next scenario.
Um, a client insists on changing your
Fix it in post.
In other words, say, "Yeah, we'll fix
Yeah. Yeah, we'll change it." And then
you make the thing and then you change
it to what it was.
But once in a while, a client may have a
great idea. So, that happens a lot. Um,
Mickey the Mouse was called Mortimer the
Mouse and Mickey uh Walt Disney's wife
said that's a great character, a
terrible name. You should name it
Mickey. So, listening to feedback is not
a bad thing. I know sometimes the ego
gets in the way, but sometimes I've had
clients have great ideas. So,
a change at the last minute can be
adapted to. Let's just put it that.
>> No, I agree. I mean, that's crazy. I did
not know that he was originally
Mortimer. That's crazy. I would not have
resonated as well. I definitely think
that Mickey's a bit more catchy. That's
a That's a good example.
>> Okay, next scenario. um your intern, I
don't know if you have interns, but it
just theoretically if you do, um
accidentally posts a blooper reel
>> let it burn big time.
Interns are sometimes thrown under the
bus, but if an intern makes some
mistakes, that's why we have them here.
I I mean I tell my kids all the time, I
make mistakes. And my kid told me he was
upset about something he sent to a
friend he thought was embarrassing. And
I said, I make mistakes all the time.
He's like, not like that. I said, I
named my company Sha. And they
>> no, that's um that's a it's a really I
think it's a good lesson when you make
mistakes and on top of it, I think that
even you know, an apology blooper
doesn't really sound like
>> Oh, yeah.
That's the other thing. A blooper is a
good idea.
>> Bloopers are fun. I think people enjoy
them. I think like they like seeing when
people are human and they enjoy kind of
stuff like that. So even if your brand
is super polished, I guess like maybe
goes against the grain that you've kind
of paved, but at the same time, um I
think that shows like humility. Um so I
>> mistakes are fine. I mean, I I I heard
that the study showed that if a waiter
or waitress makes a mistake
and then they correct it and apologize,
they get a better tip than if they don't
>> Sense. I I wish that they would get good
tips regardless, but I But I understand
because it seems like, you know, like
you really care when you own up to
something that you do wrong.
>> Yeah. Don't blame the, you know, they
always blame the which maybe it is their
fault, but I don't like when they blame
the chef or the cook in the back cuz
they're supposed to be a teen, you know.
>> Yeah. It's funny though. I have worked
in some some restaurants with some some
angsty chefs, for lack of better
phrasing. So, some a lot of the time it
is the chef.
>> Oh, confirmed your the inside story
right here.
>> Oh, confirmed. I've met more chefs with
anger issues than any other person any
other profession alive. >> Wow.
>> Wow.
>> But it is um you know they also they
really take care of their staff I think
too. Like I I got some delicious meals
made for me but they don't care about
the customers. That's it depends on the
person for sure. Um but because they're
not seen they don't have the
responsibility of getting the feedback.
>> I hear you
>> but anyway okay I'll give you one last
scenario. Um, okay. H trying to think of
which one I should give. Okay.
Okay. You accidentally, this is like a
real mistake I would say, I guess. Um,
you accidentally mix up a competitor's
>> I guess. Uh, fix it in post.
Um, I would apologize, but uh,
yeah, just be upfront. Whoops, we messed
up. Let me use an example.
I don't know. Uh, you know, Steph Curry
on the Warriors, he was going to sign
with Nike.
Nike presented a presentation with
another player's name on it.
And worse than that, they didn't
immediately apologize. >> Odd.
>> Odd.
>> They fumbled their way through the
presentation. It was clear, this is
before Steph was an MVP or won a
championship. It was obvious that he was
like a third tier athlete. And so, right
then and there, his dad and him said,
"We're signing with the Under." So,
>> it wasn't the mistake. It's the lack of
owning up to it or your general vibe
that you don't care. accountability.
Exactly. Because maybe the person had an
intern do it or somebody else or that
doesn't matter. I mean, he has to own up
to it
>> and make that person feel like a million
bucks because obviously it's not about
the money. Nike was going to give a lot
of money and Nike is a global brand. He
wanted the respect. He wanted to know he
was first.
>> I definitely understand that. And I
think also when you take accountability
for a mistake or an action, you get the
you get more control of the situation in
which you get to like dictate the
narrative almost where if you don't
acknowledge it at all, then you kind of
just like everyone everyone's opinions
about you become the narrative like
>> Yeah. the rumor spirals. Exactly.
>> That happened with Cracker Barrel. They
could have immediately said, "Whoops, we
released this a little too early." They
could have said that within hours, but
they were panicked and didn't know what
to do for 4 days. And it spiraled in a
million directions why they possibly
made that move.
It became a whole conspira the story
became about the conspiracy
supposed that was invented and not just
oh whoops. We messed up. People mess up
all the time. It's okay.
>> Yeah. No, I I I think that this is a
great honestly I think this game is a
great starting point to introduce you
fully. Um well, one thank you for
entertaining me. Um and also for so like
you your agency name started as a joke
and now it drives a movement. Mhm.
>> What moment was what like what was the
pinnacle moment when you realized the
joke became your brand's biggest asset
and like how did it change your mindset?
>> That happened a
very quickly after I posted this onion
style article called Embracing the Chaos
show creative launches and it was a
ridiculous absurd article. It even said
hashtag parody. It had a picture I made
in Chachi in like 10 seconds of three
smug founders in front of this modernist
office building in Venice, California.
For some reason I thought it has to be Venice.
Venice. And
And
I went on a walk with my wife and our
dog. And then I come back and that thing
has hundred reactions and comments. And
I get a instant message from a guy from
Perth, Australia.
and he's asking me for a meeting. He
says, "I'm in Venice. I want to swing
by. I think we should collaborate."
And that's when I realized this is real
because I think I accidentally scheduled
a meeting with the international
advertising executive.
We we and that's was shocking to me
because I had a big call to make because
for the past nine years I had said I was
from San Francisco on LinkedIn because I
began my career there. I had my kids
there. I met my wife there. I lived
there 10 years. All of my contacts and
most of my clients are there. I was
getting paid the rates from San
Francisco. I'm living in Fort
Lauderdale. I don't want people to think
I'm a Florida man with an emotional
support iguana and a crocodile in the
backyard and a bad meth habit. So,
I had to come clean to the world and
say, "I am a Florida man." I was afraid
it would destroy my career and like
people would pay me less money, but
instead I think they appreciated the self-deprecation
self-deprecation
of uh just owning owning up to the joke,
telling people what happened. I mean, I
tell everybody I was pretending to be
somebody else and live somewhere else.
And now I'm I'm free.
I'm liberated. And that's when it became
a real company. within two days I had a
client and uh the rest is history.
>> I think that's wonderful. I think that,
you know, and that's exactly what we
were just talking about is like owning
the narrative because you like there was
a chance and maybe, you know, I don't
know how long you were doing it, but
like there was a chance that someone did
find out that you were not in San
Francisco and got really mad about it. >> Yep.
>> Yep.
>> And then like, you know, that crumbled
of like uh you know, someone saying
you're like doing something fraudulent
or like blah blah blah. Like, and then
there's other narratives of like, what
else is he lying about? And it's like,
you know, you being able to not only
poke fun at the situation, but also
just, you know, be honest with like um
current clientele, like possible um you
know, future clients, whatever it may
be. Is just like owning that is really
valuable. I think like people see that
that's transparency and they like trust
you more.
>> Yes. Um, people love the process, I
think, of making art, of opening a
restaurant. My friend opened a
restaurant, but he started a blog
showing all the ups and downs and the
money wasted and the mistakes and the
construction that he did himself, like
going to the flea market to buy this old
angel that he painted gold and he called
this place the fat angel.
And his place became very successful.
was the first restaurant he opened and
then Conan O'Brien and
uh the founder of Google and all these
celebrities would go to this place and I
think the success of his businesses is
he shows what's behind the curtains. A
lot of people like to hide that. But
I did a campaign one time for ballet in
San Francisco and they told us that they
had noticed that
the backstage pictures of the ballet
artist with like bloody feet and bruises
and tape around them would have 10 times
more engagement than these beautiful
shots of them on stage.
And I think people realized they felt
like they got to know the people. They
felt behind the scenes. Even more than
that, it showed the reality of ballet.
It's basically a brutal sport. Um, you
know, as painful as football or even
more so, probably more so. There's no
padding hardly.
And people love to see the unfiltered
raw truth
of of
people they either admire or people they
follow or
I I mentor a lot and teach a lot. I like
to show them the ups and downs of of
creative creativity. I think they get
too many negative too much negative right
right
and I like to tell them yeah there is
negative but by the way it's different
negative than you've heard like the
problems that you'll find are probably
different than the things that you're
anticipating and tell them about the
good things and
and
yeah I I if you want to know about a job
if so if if somebody tells you about a
job and they tell you all the bad things
you still want to do it that means that
you're probably meant for that job. If
you if I tell you all the
>> You sound that bad.
>> Yeah. If I tell you the honestly bad
things about advertising you don't want
to do, it's not for you. Because when
when you're meant to do something,
people tell you not to do it and you're
like, I'm still doing it. That's
supposed to be how it works. And
I I told my niece I was encouraging her
to get into
advertising because I think she has a
gift for it.
and she asked like what's the hardest
thing about it and I said
you have an idea and you really like it
and then you p you tell somebody to
pitch it and they don't like it or you
can't do it for legal reasons or
whatever you got to come back with
another and another and another and
that's the difference between a create
anybody can be creative. A creative
professional is a person that comes back
with better and better and better. And
somebody that's feeding their family or
or buying food based on their creativity
is different than somebody that has a
great creative idea.
Sometimes people who aren't creative
professionals have great ideas because
they're not attached to it because
they're not feeding their family with
that money. That those ideas should be
welcomed. It just must be remembered that
that
there's a there's a difference between
having one idea or having a thousand.
It's like it's like an amateur baseball
player can hit a softball, hit a home
run once in a while, but try ripping
triples on a regular basis.
>> Exactly. there's a certain kind of
person for um to like flourish in a
position and you kind of have to
understand the realities of it going
into it to really understand if you
could thrive in it and like sometimes
you'll find out on the way that maybe
that's not right for you even knowing
those realities or thinking you can
handle something that you can't. Um, but
I think that um, putting more truth out
in the world about what something really
is is really really necessary. Like I
love this podcast for the reasons of
like I like talking about and bringing
up people's mistakes and what they learn
from them. And I don't mean to like I'm
not here to ridicule you. So, I'm just
here to like understand that and like
put that out in the world because people
for the longest time, I think
specifically with agencies, there was
like this weird secrecy going on of like
this is like how I grew my business from
this to this and that was like and
there's just this structured way of
perfectly doing it and like that's not
true. Like there's bumps in the road
always. Like people make mistakes.
People like unexpected things happen in
your journey all the time. like there's
highs and lows and making it seem like
there's only highs is just a lie or a really
really
great coincidence, a really lucky coincidence.
coincidence.
So many many years ago in this American
life, they had a Valentine's Day episode
and instead of making it about, you
know, everybody says, "How'd you meet?"
they made it about how'd you stay together
together
and it was about an American who met a
Chinese woman in China and they didn't
speak anything of their own language and
they fell in love pretty quickly and got
married. But it was about that was the
easy part. How did they stay together
for 15, 20 years?
And how you meet doesn't tell anything.
How you stay together tells very
valuable information.
So how did not how did you start the
agency is a especially when you're
called show is a is a natural question
question
and it's it's it's understandable
somebody would want to know that. But if
somebody might get more out of asking
how did how did you react the first time
somebody had a negative opinion to it or
how did you react when you're ghosted? I
mean that's the biggest problem for me
is it's not being turned down or
rejected. it's not hearing because when
you're turned down or rejected sometimes
you get good feedback
and you can take it or you can leave it
or you can say I disagree with that
feedback but you have feedback maybe you
maybe you notice a trend and a certain
kind of business isn't going to work
with but when you're ghosted you
know nothing and that's it's become an
epidemic now
with uh hiring with with candidates I
mean how valuable Is it to be
you don't get 10 jobs but then you have
feedback? That's how it used to be
and now it's not. So that that's an
example of an unanticipated problem.
Nobody told me the worst the worst thing
about opening a business isn't getting
ejected. It's nothing. By the way, it's
the same in comedy. Before people start
doing standup, they think the worst
thing that could happen is getting heckled
heckled or
or
booed or not people not laughing. I did
stand up for a while and the worst part
of standup is the being empty.
You know, when you're first starting,
you're in these bars and there's like
three people and a lot of times there's
other comedians.
And by the way, you you probably
shouldn't listen to their feedback because
because
they're either cynical or they're
jealous or they're distracted. More
likely they're distracted thinking about
their own routine. Fair enough. And
that, by the way, I would compare it to
surfing. People think the worst part of
surfing is um like crashing or sharks.
The worst part of surfing is when the
weather doesn't allow you to surf and
it's flat. So, I used to compare surfing
to standup. That
the thing I got exhausted with standup
was not bombing. I mean, that's not the
worst. The worst thing about standup is
chasing the wave, so to speak, and
trying to find rooms where you can tell
your jokes. You'd be honored to bomb
because at least you got feedback. That
didn't work. Let me move on. You know,
I think that like well speaking of
comedy because that's a big part of like
your whole brand. Um comedy and
narrative play a big part in your
philosophy. How do you use humor to not
just entertain but also connect with audiences?
audiences? Well,
Well,
in comedy a lot of times they say
after haha comes aha.
And when you tell a joke it opens up a
part of the brain and then you tell a
fact after it or a point of view and it
enters your brain and it makes you think
or it gets you to see another point of
view for a second.
And I talked to a pastor about this and
he said, "Did you ever notice?" Cuz he
tells joke. A lot of pastors tell jokes.
And he said, "Did you ever notice after
I tell the joke I deliver the message?"
So he was confirming.
He does it by instinct. Maybe he saw
other people do that. But now it's
neuroscientists can look at your brain
and then see that it lights up in a
certain way. When you're laughing,
you're breathing. You know, breathing
inspiration literally means like
breathing in and you're breathing and
then you're receptive to another point
of view.
And the best comedians
are they don't have a set point of view.
They get everybody to open their eyes to
some thing they don't want to admit. And
I've seen I've seen the best comedians.
They're dealing with the right leaning
and left-leaning audience and they play
them like an orchestra. And in the end,
you realize we can all laugh and see
things from another perspective. And
we're all equal because he's roasting
both of us. I saw Sebastian Man
Sebastian Maniscalo is one of my
favorites. I saw him in a big theater
right right as we were emerging from co
and he was playing the audience like
left and right so beautifully. And
having done standup for a few years, I realized
realized
how difficult that was. He was basically
orchestrating concert as a symphony
conductor and that that is not for
amateurs cuz you easily could have the
whole audience met. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> No, I think that's I I like um with
comedy that I I think and I I believe
this is that as long as you're not
punching down, you kind of can always
win like any kind of audience. Um, for
like I think that people like to feel
catered to with comedy, like they can
connect to you, but I think that you
have the ability to connect with anyone.
Comedy has the ability to connect people
that have like completely different
moral viewpoints or ethical views. And I
think that's like one of the coolest
things about it. One of one of the best
shows I ever went to was at an Elks Club
and I went I went with three other standups
standups
and it was in the suburbs of San Jose
and we came from San Francisco. So San
Francisco is 90% left-leaning. You go to
the suburbs of San Jose gets interesting
because it's more half and half
especially in an Elks Club with an older
mostly white audience.
And we were wondering how it was going
to go. And it went amazingly because
there was tension because comedy
relieves tension when done correctly.
And you could feel it in the room and
the people were laughing at each other
and they're turning to each other
because they probably argued about these
things before. And now there's a
comedian not not creating divisiveness
or or creating tension and leaving it
there. You create tension and you
relieve it. And then it happened that
the the the closer, the guy who was with us,
us,
he's great because he he turns this he
does a standup that's like partly motivational.
motivational.
And he'll even talk about it's so rare
that we get in the same room together.
We need to do this more often with
people who see things differently and
just laugh. And we're all humans and
we're on this planet for a short time,
so let's just have fun. And he weaves
that into jokes and I was really
inspired and I saw that comedians can be
motivational. They can be the the kind
of like a therapist or a it sounds
pretentious but some of the best
comedians are philos modern philosophers.
philosophers.
>> And I'm sure by the way the philosophers
has probably been lost. It's been lost
in history or translation but I bet you
Plato and Aristotle were funny. Cuz
anytime anytime you challenge, you punch
up. That's so unexpected that you're
like, "Do you just said that?" I mean,
that's the court gesture making fun of
the king. Um, you're like, "Oh, no, you
didn't." And then you're laughing
because you thought the same thing, but
the words came out of their mouth.
And sometimes people I have calls with
people and they say from all around the
world like Brazil or Pakistan or India
or Australia, they say, "You say what I can't."
can't."
You know, they're they're saying that
and some have just said it. I'm a
middle-aged white guy, straight, and I
can say things and get away with things
that they think they can't. But that's
the whole point about being an ally.
They tell you you should be an ally, but
I never realized it could be so much fun.
I mean, how much fun is it? I I was
always the kid in school that would get
mad or ticked off somebody who's making
fun of my friend way more than me
and I would roast the person doing it
way way more than if they they were
doing it to me. Honestly, I'd be a
little bit like shell shock. But if
they're making fun of my friends, I feel
like that now. And I, by the way, I've
had this issue at jobs where the boss
can throw me under the bus and I'll I'll
take it.
But if they throw a subordinate of mine
that I'm managing under the bus, uh it's
very difficult for me to uh keep my
mouth shut because as a manager, part of
your job is to protect the people under
you and shield them from unfair
criticism. It's your job to give
constructive criticism and somebody
comes in with something that's not even
true and somebody's trying to blame
them. So to your point about the funny
thing about like don't punch down,
it's good advice. It's ethical advice.
It's the right thing to do. It's also
just great comedy advice because it's
not funny. I mean some small people will
think that's funny to punch down, but
that's not the way to to go. And George
>> not great people. George Carlin's one of
my favorites and he would only punch
out. I love Anthony Bourdain because
rest in peace because have you ever
heard the story about how he defended
the small town
um reporter who wrote a rave review of
the Olive Garden, I think it was.
>> Yes. I loved that story. That was so wholesome.
wholesome.
>> Yeah, he was so good. Anthony Bourdain
was perfect example because he was so
so mercile mercilessless. Is that the
word? Merciless.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> With with the powers that be, with the
politicians, with the hypocrites, with
the pretentious business owners, with
people he disagreed with. But he never
did that with
the common person. He invited her,
right? He he I think he helped publish
her. He shared her story. He he opened
people's eyes too to the fact that if
you're from one of these small towns,
that is cuisine. Like that is the best
that you have. And it's not her fault
she lives in a bit of a food desert. And
by the way, maybe it's a novelty. Maybe
maybe they eat a lot of farmers markets
food. Like I know my family and they
loved the Subway when Subway came to town.
town.
And it's crazy because some of the best
subs are from central Pennsylvania and
they would like this fast food and I
realized it's not it's probably not
about the food and that it tastes good.
It's like wow like this franchise thinks
we're a real city, you know,
>> a little bit >> something.
>> something.
>> I heard I don't exactly know why, but
I've read that Jin Z is big fans of
chain restaurants and you can see it in
the data. And one of my one of my
thoughts was maybe that a lot of these
independent type places are start
starting to look the same because of
Instagram and they're becoming very
cookie cutter. So if you want a cookie
cutter standard experience, why don't
you go to a chain that specializes in
that rather than pay a premium for
>> Yeah, exactly. I think I think that has
to be a factor. I went to a coffee shop
in Lisbon. And it looked just like New
York or just like Fort Lauderdale, just
like I've heard Sydney or pictures of Asia.
Asia.
And I, you know, I miss the kind of
dusty old coffee shops that have that
plush furniture and some old book. I
don't know how many of them are around,
but I was visiting my friend in Buffalo
and there was a place called The Spot
right next to Starbucks.
And this place the spot has comedians,
>> Wait, have you ever heard I wonder if
it's still there. Do you know what I'm
talking about? That place. I wonder if
it's still there. Gosh, I hope so.
>> Yeah. No, I'm pretty sure I know what
you're talking.
>> And so Starbucks now is having all this
trouble because they want to be the
third place. I I understand the CEO
wants to bring it back to it's not work,
it's not home, it's a third place. I get
it. But third place is kind of have to
happen organically by a company that's
probably not publicly owned because you
have to do things that don't necessarily
help the bottom line. Like I I was
really bummed when Starbucks got rid of
the New York Times and it was the only
place I read a real newspaper and I
noticed other people reading it and I'm
sure they're like we can save this much
money by getting rid of the New York
Times. But it was a signal, you know,
stick around a while. Hang out. Even if
you didn't read it, it's like we want
you to be here. And
And
>> I think that there's Oh, sorry.
>> Sorry. Go ahead.
>> No. What were you going to say?
>> Uh, when a place has a some random old
book, I'll just open it up and read it
that I never would. And I'm thankful
that I'm it's telling me stick around a
while. And even if I don't, I feel welcome.
welcome.
So, I went into a coffee shop in San
Francisco and I just lost my job and I
was kind of firing myself up. Oh, I get
to go to a coffee shop and work from there
there
and do freelance and look for jobs. And
I go to this coffee shop and I go to the
counter and it's obviously a hipster
indie coffee shop with $8 coffee. And I
buy my coffee and then I say I had
already bought the coffee. I said,
"What's the Wi-Fi code?" says, "We don't
have Wi-Fi. Is that going to be a problem?"
Here's the crazy thing. I look around,
everybody's on their phones and on their
laptops. Why? Because they just use
their mobile hotspot.
So, this pretentious jackass
is have attitude that I'm going to ruin
the vibe of a place where everybody's on
devices. If I looked around and there's
classical music playing and nobody's
working, I would have put my laptop away
and gone talked to somebody. It would
have been awesome.
It was just insane to see that. So,
So, if you ever go to Denver, go near
the ballpark in lower downtown Loa.
There's a there's a bar there called My
Brother's Bar,
and it's a it's right next to a
ballpark. It has no TVs and they play
classical music
and it's been around probably 80 years.
It's in that book on the road by Jack
Carowak which is written in the 50s. So
he stops in Denver at my brother's bar.
It's still around and it's cool because
sometimes creative is taking something
away. So let's have a sports bar with no
TVs or sports. Uh I've heard that the
crunch is like what if we had a gym but
it didn't have weights? I don't know if
it has weights, but somebody you they're
missing something. I forget if it's
>> clubs that don't have um like you have
headphones on and you listen to music on
there instead of like on stage. That's
something kind of taking something away.
>> There's also sober. That's become big,
right? In the middle of the day, you go
to a rave and it's sober. And a lot of
people I mean I I've know a lot of
people in that scene. A lot of them are
sober. A lot of them love the music and
the dancing and the music itself is a
high and they don't need it. And it's
really cool that people are uniting
around shared interests. And it's so
crazy that the news makes it like a bad
thing that Gen Z is not drinking as
much, which is insane. It's like,
shouldn't we celebrate that? And by the
way, the reason they're not drinking a
lot of it is because they saw their
parents and their parents' friends were
shows and they don't want to be
like that. And it's bad for your liver
and your health.
So just have a gummy once in a while. >> Exactly.
>> Exactly.
>> So we are approaching time, but I do
want to ask you something um before we
go. Um so be just because I think that
with the nature of your agency, there's
just like a lot of advice that I think
that you can kind of give that maybe
someone in a different um place would
not be able to. But so like
brands often fear looking messy and like
I think that's why sometimes people try
to brush things under the rug or not
take ownerships of mistakes or whatever
it may be.
>> What is your advice to
>> clients who worry about like losing
control? Like how do you help them flip
that fear into like creative?
>> I would remind them they never had
control to begin with.
control controls an illusion. It's
irrational to think that we control our
brand. The brand lives in the minds of
the people who go there or the people
who want to go there
and they forget that, right?
Every company's eventually forgets we
don't own our brand. We have a brand
guy, but nobody cares. You know how I
worked for PayPal for a while and
they're like people see us as a payment
company, but we're more of a
financial consultant, a partner or
whatever. And I'm like, well, you're
called PayPal.
>> Yeah, like the name is that's an issue.
Um, and by the way, that's a big thing.
If you're the number one way to pay
people in the world, you might want to
stick to that. That's pretty good. So,
I've noticed that just like comedic
funny people want to be taken seriously,
serious people want to be funny. Um, a a
cola brand wants to be a lifestyle brand.
brand.
A lifestyle brand is probably like maybe
we should come up with a a cola or
brand, you know, like are we just a
lifestyle brand or should we make a
chocolate ball? Everybody wants to be
something they're not. I worked for an
agency called Chrisman Porter Busky
which was one of the best agencies for decades
decades
and I noticed they had this simple trick
and nobody wrote about it or anything
but they would take the brand and they
would rewind 30 years. If a brand's been
around 70 years or even 6 months they
probably stumbled on the right idea and
they just got away from it or they
cluttered it up. So Burger King had have
it your way in the 70s and maybe early
80s and then all of a sudden they
dropped it for decades and decades and
they changed every six months they
changed people. They changed they change
it. They changed their campaigns, right?
Everything threw spaghetti against the
wall. It comes to the hottest agency in
the world and you you have to get over
your ego to do this. And what do they
do? They say you had it right 40 years
ago. Let's do have it your way. They
said Burger King invented mass
customization. The idea that a huge
global company can say you make the
choice because you could go to you can
go to McDonald's and say no pickles. I
don't know if it's Urban Legend, but
they would say they would spit on your
food. I don't know if they do that, but
they definitely don't invite you to do
that. And they kind of give you an attitude.
attitude.
So, you just take that old idea, redo it
in a modern way. Boom. Done. By the way,
Pepsi, free idea for them. Choice of the
next generation. They had it right in
the 80s.
Everything they did was modern. They did
not allude to the past or to retro or to
comforting. Coke has all that. Fine. You
do the opposite. Celebrate creators
like individuals. Coke is doing AI right
now. What do you do? Don't do AI. Do the
exact opposite. Maybe get a hundred
creative people around the world to do
something inspired by Pepsi. the choice
of the next generation, which by the
way, doesn't all older people want to be
part of the next generation or identify
or spiritually connect with that? So,
that's the that's the thing. Get over
your ego. Embrace embrace what's proven.
It's not risky to go back to your core.
And by the way, as a human being, it's
the same thing. You're if you're like I
if somebody says be truthful, be
yourself, step out of your comfort zone.
People may be scared. And you're like,
if you remind them, you know, it's less
scary to be yourself because it's you
don't have to wear a mask and waste all
this energy pretending you're somebody
you're not. And nobody's going to call
you out for being a fraud.
I've been called a lot of things in
these last six months, but I haven't c
Nobody says you're faking it or this
isn't who you are or something. That's
the only insult that would get to me is
if they said it and I realized they were
right. But other than that, I feel like
everything bounces off of me right now.
suggest like leaning into what you
actually are rather than what you want
to be especially like with clients even.
So like for example um if you if your
clients believe something about your
like you find that as a whole they
believe that you are something that you
inherently don't believe you are and
like maybe it actually is a
misconception. Do you think that you
should still run with it if your clients
believe that and go with that brand that
like they kind of created for you?
>> Oh, you mean me as an agency or them as
a Are you talking about clients who
>> in general as like maybe not you
specifically, but say like your clients
have an interpretation of what you do,
but it's maybe a misconception like
maybe it's not necessarily fully right.
>> Do you still believe that you should
lean into that?
>> That's a good point. Let me be more
specific because here's what I thought
about is right now I have a comedic brand
brand
and it's fast and loose and experimental and
and
we created memes about
Cracker Barrel that went crazy nuts
viral because we weren't criticizing
Cracker Barrel. We were we we made
cracker apparel clothing and we had
biscuits are bipartisan with celebrities
and AI who are great friends but on the
opposite sides of the political divide
and that thing went nuts.
So we have that comedic punk act punk
attitude like just make it just don't
think. But here's the thing. We have
another division that just launched
which is a very high-end elite level A+
style studio, Hollywood style content.
We just launched that last week. So we
got Show Creative, which is a
collective, and we have SSC, which is a
film studio. And this is attention because
because
will people take us seriously? They're
definitely laughing. They have been for
six months. Will they take this
seriously? So this is a risk for us. But
I think all great ideas, all great
brands, all great stories, music,
paintings have tension. So painting it's
light and dark. Music it's major and
minor chords.
Shakespeare had comedy and drama. The
comedy relieves you and allows you to be
more dramatic.
And the drama gives you a reason to make
a joke once in a while. So it's not an
either or thing. You can't have too many
sites to your brand or you're all over
the place. But I would encourage the
client to do two things. You want to
modernize yourself, your your Cracker
Barrel. Let's do it. Let's do let's
modernize yourself in the Cracker Barrel
For example, you could have made a
campaign of that old guy on the Cracker
Barrel, old white guy, and brought him
to life as a character. Maybe maybe he's
like having a little trouble letting go,
but he decides like the next generation
is ready and he passes the baton.
And it it show it shows thoughtfulness
that he is respected by people. People
do look at him as comfort, but it shows
thoughtfulness to recognize that he
isn't relevant to
people who are in their in their 20s or
teenagers that never went on their road
trips and stopped there, never ate
there, don't have that connection.
I think the generations can be more
empathetic to each other. It'll lead to
us laughing together, sharing stories,
and inspiring each other while we're here.
here.
I think this is a wonderfully wholesome
note to end on because it was actually
really perfect and encompassing
everything that you said thus far. Um,
and we are approaching time. So, this
was absolutely so wonderful. I had a lot
of fun talking um to you today. So,
thank you so much for joining me um to
be able to talk about comedy and like
not taking yourself too seriously and
owning up to mistakes. I think these are
all lessons that any entrepreneur could
really learn from or any person could
really learn from.
>> Don't worry about screwing up,
especially if you're new because what do
you have to lose? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Especially if you're young, what do you
have to lose? And if you know what, when
you're old, you don't have any you
really don't have a thing to lose
either. So,
>> it's really in the middle where it gets
difficult. But whether you're an old
established brand or a new one starting
out, be yourself, embrace yourself, and
take risks now while it's easier or more fulfilling.
fulfilling.
>> Thank you so much for saying that and
thank you Justin for joining me today.
This is absolutely wonderful. Thank you
for taking the time to come on. Thank
you everyone for listening. We'd be
nothing without you. I hope that you can
check out Justin and Show Creative
in the description. Thank you so much
and have a lovely day everyone.
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