The content explores the nature of tragedy, suffering, and redemption through psychological and biblical lenses, arguing that true tragedy lies in immense suffering befalling the undeserving, and that confronting fear and suffering, rather than avoiding it, leads to growth and overcoming.
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it's tragic when something bad happens
to someone
well what if they deserve it
okay well then it's not so tragic it
still might have an element of tragedy
but it's really tragic if something
really terrible happens to someone who
clearly doesn't deserve it
so what's the most tragic story
well it's the worst possible thing
happening to the person who least
deserves it well that's core to the
passion story that's for sure right
because not only is christ innocent
he he's not merely innocent he's also
good and not just good he's as good as
it gets and yet his life is
this the tragic
the tragedy of the passion is the worst
of all possible punishments
visited upon the least deserving person
but it's much way worse than that that
just barely begins to scrape the surface because
because it's
it's torture
torture
and a terrible torture because the
romans designed crucifixion to be a
terrible torture like consciously
and so
it's tragedy at the hands of your fellow man
man
and your fellow man motivated by the
spirit of cain in the most fundamental
sense how can i inflict the most misery
possible in the shortest period of time
let's say subject to that at a young age
with foreknowledge as a consequence of
betrayal by your best friend at the
hands of a mob of your own people
who are simultaneously under the thumb
of a tyranny that's part and parcel of
what's persecuting you
who persecute you
knowing you're innocent not just
innocent but also good and who
choose to punish you instead of
punishing someone they know to be criminal
criminal
it's all of that it's like the sum total
if you're looking for certainty
the reality of suffering is certain [Music]
[Music]
i mean
what do you accept as evidence above all else
else
that's a good question that's a hard
question but i would say pain is up there
there
it's very difficult not to believe in
the reality of your own pain
it's somewhat easier not to believe in
the reality of other people's pain
that's not so easy either you know
but it's
your pain seems to be
undeniably real
and so
it does beg a question which is you know
if pain is undeniably real is that which
overcomes pain even more real and i
think that's in some sense that's the
idea that lurks
behind the idea of the resurrection
so a long while back i had planned to do a
a
series on exodus i did a biblical series
on genesis which
people seem to appreciate which i found
extremely useful it was quite a
privilege to have the time and the space
to walk through those books and try to
understand them
first psychologically and
i like to speak about things
psychologically before i would ever dare
to speak about them religiously
i think you leave that for last resort
in some sense
i was thinking about some of the ideas
that i talked about today
you know about
the bible being the foundation of the
lens through which we look at the world
we have this idea that the bible is a
living text
and you know if we embody it then it's a
living text that's actually accurate and i
i
i think
to the degree that we're
avatars of the judeo-christian tradition
that we do embody it for better for
worse and we're stuck with that or
blessed by it or both
so i'll tell you the story when moses is
leading the israelites through the desert
desert
i'm very compelled by that story you know
know
so for example one of the things that's
really interesting about it is that
the story begins with a tyrannical state
and then
it's the spirit of god that
characterizes the hebrew
longing for freedom
that's kind of an interesting idea you
know psychologically you think that
what's the spirit of god
the spirit of god is that which
manifests itself within you in
opposition to tyranny
could be you know that's
that's not a bad
idea it's quite an idea it's a
remarkable idea
and maybe it's true
it's certainly the case that that's how
god is presented in that story
and in many other ways but but that
being paramount
above all and you know there's a there's
another corollary to that which is
well we shouldn't be subjects of tyranny
if we're children of god for israel and
israel means we who struggle with god
it's not
appropriate for us to be subject to tyranny
tyranny
that's interesting too because i think
we we
we sort of accept that idea at face
value in the west is that yeah slavery
is wrong obviously it's like it's not so
bloody obvious these things
you know one of the things that i'm
really curious about in relationship to
the post-modern types who make group
membership the sign quan on of existence
is why is slavery wrong
exactly it's like it's just one if we're
all groups and one group
lords it over another it's like that's
not wrong it's just tough luck for the
for the oppressed group it's there's no
wrong there because it's only wrong if
we're sovereign individuals
right with some intrinsic worth who are
not to be subject to arbitrary tyranny
that's when it's wrong and you have to
accept all those other axioms
before you get to say anything about
slavery being wrong at all otherwise
it's just like marx pointed out it's
just brute economics
and so you can make a moral judgment
about that if you want but what's your
criteria for saying that it's wrong you
know and of course that would upset
people on the radical left who want to
presume that it's intrinsically wrong
without having to presume all the things
that you have to presume to make it
intrinsically wrong and without even
noticing that that's just a sleight of
hand in any case so that's part of that
biblical narrative too we're not the
sorts of creatures who should be subject
to tyranny and then the tyranny might be
well is it the tyranny of a state
or is it the tyranny we impose on ourselves
ourselves
and i would say probably both why not
both the story could be referring to
both we tyrannize ourselves with our own
presuppositions all the time
and then you might ask yourself
why why don't we just give up our
tyrannical presuppositions
you know because they're not worthy and
they're oppressive but we don't give
them up and we often celebrate them and
i think the story has an answer for that
too because it's out of the tyranny
into the desert
it's like is that better or worse
how about worse
and so what if it's the case that even
to escape from the tyranny of your own
presuppositions that you don't go from
the tyranny to the promised land you go
from the tyranny
to the desert
and who the hell excuse me wants to do that
that
and the answer is no one with any sense
it's like hey i'll just keep the tyranny
thank you very much at least i know
where everything belongs there and
and
fair enough i mean this is a very
serious question and it's it's an open
question in the exodus narrative whether
the desert is worse or better than the tyranny
tyranny
and so and you know you see this in in
the real world lots of people in the
soviet union pined for the days of stalin
stalin
so i read a book once that was uh
reminiscences of a pr
of um extermination camp written by the guards
guards
the good old days
you know so i don't think there's a
tyranny that's so brute that we can't
long for it if it's been shattered
and so that's quite something all that
packed up in that story anyways so the
israelites are out in the desert
and uh
they're there for 40 years and you might
think well what kind of leadership do
they have it's not that big a desert and
the answer is yeah but you know the
desert after a tyranny that's no bloody
joke and maybe it takes three
generations to get through it
and that's possible
and so
there's all that and then the israelites
are wandering around in the desert and
what happens well the same thing
happened to them is it's happening to us
they're worshiping false idols and
they're tempted and it's no wonder
they're tempted because while they're in
the desert it's like it's not going so
well it's no wonder they're having a
crisis of confidence
you know and and maybe they're pining
for the old days and they're not so sure
that the god who informed them that
being the subjects of tyranny was wrong
because now here we are in the desert
and so
they lack faith and it's understandable
but despite it being understandable and
this is one of the harsh things about
the story
what does god do when he hears their complaints
complaints
he sends poisonous snakes in there to
bite them
i think that's pretty brutal you know
and that's the sort of thing that make
it makes the technical atheist type sort
of recoil about the conceptions of god
in the old testament it's not exactly
what you'd expect in some sense from an
all-merciful being it's like you've got
these poor israelites first of all they
were in the tyranny then they had the
part go across the red sea now they've
been wandering around in the desert and
that's not
good and so your best solution is to
send a bunch of snakes in to bite them
but you think well you know
even if you're in the desert after a
tyranny and you lose faith then the
snakes are going to bite you
right because that's what happens because
because
if you're in
you know a little analog of hell
and you lose your faith
is that going to make it worse or better
and the answer is well i have reason to
lose my faith it's like fair enough that
isn't the question the question is what
happens if you lose it
or you start looking for faith in the
wrong directions and the answer is hell
gets a little deeper
that's one of the things that really
frightened me i spent a lot of time
studying atrocity and one of i realized
on a metaphorical level that the reason
hell is a bottomless pit is because no
matter how bad it is there is some
bloody stupid thing you can do that will
make it worse
and that's right you know and that's
terr that's a terrifying realization to
really understand that and so
okay poisonous snakes and so now the
israelites are not only lost but they're
being bitten
by venomous creatures and you know
there's an echo of the snake in the
garden of eden in that story and and so
finally the israelites they get kind of
tired of being bitten by the snakes
and they go to moses and say you want to
have a chat with god because you seem to
be in there fairly tight with him how
about you get him to call off the snakes
and maybe we'll
behave a little better how's that for a
deal and moses says okay i'll see what i
can do and he goes and has a chat with
god which is no trivial matter and god
doesn't do what you'd expect because
what you'd expect like and this would
even work
in terms of making it a comprehensible
narrative you'd think okay
all right guys
you've been bit enough
no more snakes
but that isn't what happens
and i think the reason that it doesn't
happen is because there's no getting rid
of the snakes i think that's
that's also why there's a snake in the
garden of eden is there's just no
getting rid of the snakes you have to
learn to contend with them it's more
like it's more that or maybe it's better
to learn to contend with snakes
than it is to inhabit a world where
there's no danger maybe it's something
like that i don't know anyways
anyways
god says something extremely surprising
and very interesting from the
perspective of a clinical psychologist
he tells moses to cast
snake in bronze and to raise it up on a
staff and the staff seems to me to be a
reference to the staff of moses and that
staff of moses is something like the
thing you put in the ground to orient
yourself with it's the staff of god too
and it's sort of like an axiom and maybe
it's like the tree of life it's like
here i stand it's a center point it's
all of that in any case you put the
snake up on the staff that's also the
symbol of healing right the physician
symbol of healing the staff with the
snakes and so it is a symbol of
transformation and partly that's because
snakes shed their skin and are reborn
and so they're viewed as agents of
transformation and so that's all lurking
in that symbol
and then god says get the israelites to
go look at the snake on the staff and
then the poison won't poison them anymore
anymore
and i read that as a clinician i thought
that's really interesting because one of
the things that we learned
all schools of psychotherapy learned in
the last 100 years is that if you get
people to voluntarily confront what
makes them afraid and what makes them
want to avoid then they get better it's curative
curative
and so that's the message there it's
like well if if something is terrifying you
you
pay more attention to it
and that's actually what you teach
people in psychotherapy i mean there's a
variety of psychotherapeutic techniques
but exposure is probably
the cardinal technique
it's like if i can find out what you're
avoiding and get you to confront it
voluntarily you'll get better and the
reason seems to be is that if you get
people to confront what they're afraid
of and sometimes what disgusts them but
what they'd like to avoid let's say if
you get them to confront it voluntarily
that could be the future even you know
the indeterminate future
they don't get less afraid
they get braver
and that's different it's not like they
get accustomed to what they're looking
at and they're no longer afraid that
kind of happens but it isn't really what
happens what really happens is they
discover there's a lot more to them than
they thought
and so they're not as easily intimidated
then and so if you run a clinical client
through a session of exposure therapy
maybe they're afraid of an elevator or
something like that you get them so
they'll go in the elevator and sometimes
they're often women because women have
anxiety disorders more often than men
one of the unintended consequences of
that often is they'll go home and have
the fight with their husband that's been
brewing for 30 years
because they're now braver they see
themselves in a different light because
they've confronted this thing that
terrifies them and so it's so
interesting in that story that god's
cure for the venomous serpent is
voluntary exposure to the source of
terror it's so interesting that that's
the case and this is relevant to the
issue of suffering right and confronting
suffering dead on to actually
focus your attention on that which you
would like to avoid
one of the scariest words ever is if i
was god they wouldn't have been bitten
in the first place right so they put the
they've got the serpent the serpent's on
the pole but they're still going to get
bit and i think that that's what's
essential about that is just because the
serpent is there it doesn't mean that
everything is fixed it now looks like
the states are still there
but the the the transformation that
takes place is the focus of the
suffering becomes a symbol of faith for
them and that's obviously on the cross
well and part of the faith is the faith
that enables them to go look at the
serpent to begin with absolutely okay so
that leads us to the next part which is
in john because christ says
thousands of years later that he has to
be lifted up like the serpent in the
wilderness it's like okay
what in the world is going on there
because that's a hell of a thing for
anyone to say about anything ever and
it's right because what does that mean
why would the son of god compare himself
to a serpent and why that particular
serpent and that serpent in the wilderness
wilderness and
and
i knew this old idea that lurks in all
sorts of stories in this corpus of
stories that i talked about you know
there's an idea that
the hero rescues his father from the
belly of the beast that's a very very
old idea and what that seems to mean to
some degree is that if you if you look
into the abyss
then that
it reacquaints you with the wisdom and
possibility of your tradition it's
something like that it forces that
it forces a maturation and a recognition
of what's fundamentally important that
confrontation with what's terrifying well
well
so christ says he has to be lifted up
like the serpent in the wilderness thought
thought
what does that mean i thought a lot
about the relationship
between the serpent and the garden of
eden and the idea of satan because
there's an association there between
those two ideas and that's a very
strange association too because there's
nothing in that
in the biblical story in genesis that
indicates that the serpent is satan like
that's that's an idea that
aggregates across hundreds of years or
thousands of years that equation and i
tried to think that through i thought well
well
the snake is the thing that threatens us
and that's true biologically
we're wired to be afraid of serpents
especially poisonous ones and they've
been in an antagonistic relationship
with mammals for like 60 million years
very long time but
but
he's the ultimate in serpents
and so that's why that equation is drawn
across time it's like well what
threatens you well snakes yeah they're
pretty nasty well
there's snakes and then there's well
the origin of snakes so maybe you
conquer a snake and that's one thing and
maybe the next thing is you go out and
you find nests of snakes and you root
them out but then there's the snakes
that are in the hearts of your enemies
that's a harder snake to deal with and
then there's the snake that's in your
heart and that's the hardest snake to
deal with right and that's where the
equation between the serpent and satan
comes because the worst of all snakes is
the serpent in your own heart
and so there's a there's a
psychologization of the idea of the
predator and it becomes something that's
more spiritual is that you're most vulnerable
vulnerable
to the worst impulses within you right
that's the worst predator
okay so there's the idea of the
concretization of the idea of the
serpent becoming psychologized up into
this figure of the adversary himself and
that abides within you analogously
analogously perhaps
perhaps
is this
reference that christ makes to himself
in relationship to the snake is i
thought well what's the passion
if the snake is what you're afraid of in
this concretized sense
then the passion
is the sum total of all possible fears
i think that's right you know carl jung
he thought about the story of the
passion as an archetypal tragedy
and here's what he meant by that so
imagine that you took all these
tragedies that were ever written
and you sort of
you distilled them so that you got the
ultimate tragedy because the fact that
you can identify a bunch of different
stories as tragic means they have
something in common right and so you
could imagine you could pull out the
central pattern of tragedy and we could
flesh out some of what that might be
like it's tragic when something bad
happens to someone
well what if they deserve it
okay well then it's not so tragic it
still might have an element of tragedy
but it's really tragic if something
really terrible happens to someone who
clearly doesn't deserve it
so what's the most tragic story
well it's the worst possible thing
happening to the person who least
deserves it well that's core to the
passion story that's for sure right
because not only is christ innocent
he's not merely innocent he's also good
and not just good he's as good as it
gets and yet his life is
this the tragic
the tragedy of the passion is the worst
of all possible punishments
visited upon the least deserving person
but it's much way worse than that that
just barely begins to scrape the surface because
because it's
it's torture
torture
and a terrible torture because the
romans designed crucifixion to be a
terrible torture like consciously
and so
it's tragedy at the hands of your fellow man
man
and your fellow man motivated by the
spirit of cain in the most fundamental
sense how can i inflict the most misery
possible in the shortest period of time
let's say subject to that at a young age
with foreknowledge as a consequence of
betrayal by your best friend at the
hands of a mob
of your own people who are
simultaneously under the thumb of a
tyranny that's part and parcel of what's
persecuting you who persecute you
knowing you're innocent not just
innocent but also good and who
choose to punish you instead of
punishing someone they know to be criminal
criminal
it's all of that it's like the sum total
of all possible fears
and i think that's right and it's so
interesting to me that
psychologically that
not speaking religiously to the degree
that that's possible when speaking about
such things is that
an archetypal tragedy
it's as if we're
attempting to inoculate ourselves
against the catastrophe of life
and but what's
also so fascinating about the story of
the passion is that
the crucifixion is not the end of the
story the end of the story is the
resurrection and so the implication
there is the same as the implication of
of
going into the abyss to rescue your
father from the belly of the beast it's like
like
the tragedy isn't the end of the story
the resurrection is the end of the story
and so then you wonder what that means
psychologically because what you see in
psychotherapeutic session
in the psychotherapeutic milieu is that
if you get people to expose themselves
to what they're terrified of
being terrified isn't the end of the story
story
recovering is the end of the story
and so that begs the question is like
well to what degree are we capable of
bearing suffering and prevailing and the
answer might be
to the degree that we're capable of
confronting it forthrightly
and that might actually just be true
and you know you think well
how could it be otherwise in some sense
like what's going to call the best out
of you if it isn't the most what's most challenging
challenging
because it's not that easy to get the
best called out of you it's not going to
just happen because someone rings your
doorbell right you have to be shook to
the core before you're going to
undertake what's necessary to make the
sacrifices that are required to put you in
in
that doesn't happen with no reason so
so
well so
are you grateful for your suffering as a
consequence of that
i don't know that's a high standard man
that's a high standard [Music]
[Music] you
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