The content emphasizes the importance of intentional reflection and action, particularly around the New Year, to foster personal growth and achieve meaningful goals, while also advocating for a more balanced approach to life that includes joy and self-compassion.
Mind Map
Genişletmek için tıkla
Tam etkileşimli Mind Map'i keşfetmek için tıkla
Stop taking life so seriously. No one is
getting out of this game alive. And in
three generations, no one will even
remember your name. And if that doesn't
give you liberation to just drop your
problems for a moment and find some joy,
I don't know what will because there'll
never be a time when there's no problems
in life. And that's why this time in
between Christmas and New Year is a
really wonderful time to plan big dreams
and goals for the year.
>> So, let's talk about that.
>> Chris Williamson is one of the world's
leading podcast hosts and thinkers. And
now he's back
>> educating us on how to build discipline,
turning goals into results, what's
stopping us finding love,
>> and what makes a good man in today's society?
society?
>> The single [music] best question to work
out what you should be doing next year,
what would have to happen by the end of
2026. For me to look back and consider
it a success and it usually comes down
to only a few things. The first one is
in order to pick something up, you have
to put something down. So setting the
bar unrealistically high does not
increase your performance. Like you
probably lose 20 lb and get a boyfriend.
You can't do that and move cities and
start a new business. So, make the
assumption, I can do no more than I'm
doing now. Second thing, if your life
was a movie and the audience were
watching, what would they be screaming
at the screen telling you to do with
your life? It is obvious. Leave the
relationship. The job is not working for
you. The killer's hiding in the
cupboard. Because if you're not careful
with how you design what it is that you
chase after, you can spend your entire
life realizing that you climbed a huge
ladder that was leaning up against the
wrong wall.
>> And is there anything else? So there is
a wonderful upside in trying to conquer
and trying to achieve mastery, trying to
really drive yourself to go and do
stuff. But I'm not like your feelings,
just hustle and grind until your eyes
bleed either because one of the biggest
lessons I've taken away from this year
is [music] suppression isn't the same
thing as strength. And it's a good thing
for guys who feel their emotions to show
that they feel their emotions, right?
Like I've been at some of my lowest
points over the last 12 months. It felt
like my better self was slipping through
my fingers. I realized my emotions are
legitimate and denying myself that is
not helping anything at all. What happened?
>> I see messages all the time in the
comment section that some of you didn't
realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you
could do me a favor and double check if
you're a subscriber to this channel,
that would be tremendously appreciated.
It's the simple, it's the free thing
that anybody that watches this show
frequently can do to help us here to
keep everything going in this show in
the trajectory it's on. So, please do
double check if you've subscribed and uh
thank you so much because in a strange
way you are you're part of our history
and you're on this journey with us and I
appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank
you [music] [singing]
[singing] Chris.
Chris.
My audience care a lot about changing
their life for the better. And I think
at this time of year, change is front of
mind for everybody. Everybody's thinking
about New Year's resolutions, who I want
to become in 2026. But when you look at
the stats, 23% of people quit by the end
of the first week of January, their New
Year's resolution, the thing they aimed at.
at.
>> Roughly half of people will quit their
New Year's resolution, the change they
sought by the end of January. and only
about 9% of people will keep their New
Year's resolution for the full year. So
I guess my opening question to you is
does this time of year matter at all? Is
it a useful productive time to be
thinking about change in your point of
view? I think the world is split into
two camps. Uh one camp says there is no
difference between January 1st and
December 31st. Like why wait? It's
December 10th, just do it now. and the
other camp likes the idea of there being
a culturally appropriate moment to stop
doing something and start doing
something else. Most people need to
realize that they're already spending
tons of time worrying about the future
in the past. They're going back to this
thing that they regret. I wish I'd done
this differently. Oh, I I have uh uh
rumination about something that
occurred. I have a sense of uh
wistfulness for something that I've
maybe missed. I'm grief for something
that I've lost. Then they're concerned
about the future. They're thinking, "I'm
uncertain about this thing that's going
to happen. I could plan. I could try and
come up with a solution for this." So,
you're already worrying about the past.
You're already doing reflection and
planning just in a very unstructured way
where you don't get to choose when it
hits you in the face.
This is a culturally appropriate moment,
like a scheduling appropriate moment for
you to just step in and think, okay, in
between Christmas and New Year, people
that work in retail, God bless you,
people that got to go back to work and
do that thing, but usually there's a bit
of downtime.
>> It's a little bit slower. It's Boxing
Day, chilling out on the couch, and
you're kind of thinking, "Wow, I was
here again at mom and dad's house or
with the in-laws or whatever. What was I
doing last year? What was it like last
year? You're already in a little bit of
a reflective mode. There is no special
magic super secret squirrel source in
January 1st. But it is a good moment to
check in because life tends to slow down
a little bit. Work tends work uh time is
a little bit more slow and you're
already doing this. You're already
thinking about the past and the future
and this is just a good structured
opportunity to check in and do it. I
guess the the question that everybody
should be asking themselves is what
should I aim at? And and is there such a
thing as aiming at too many things? What
what what is a good goal for change? And
when you think about all the people
you've interviewed and the change you've
seen in your own life, what what does a
productive New Year's resolution or
productive goal sound like? And how do I
how do I get there?
>> Yeah. It's very overwhelming. Uh if you
realize, wow, I can do anything I want.
I could look at my entire life.
That's terrifying. That's absolutely terrifying.
terrifying.
One thing I would say, this is your
opportunity to change anything
behaviorally. You can change anything
you want. Not everything you want.
Right? That's the problem. You can
become anything you want behaviorally,
but you can't be everything you want.
So, you need to pick a small number. The
single best question to work out what
you should be doing next year. what
would have to happen by the end of 2026
for me to look back on 2026 and consider
it a success. I think that really helps
to just give you a bit more perspective
and it usually comes down to only a few
things. You don't usually have so much
in your mind when you do that. Setting
the bar unrealistically high does not
increase your performance. Imagine this.
Imagine that you went into a buffet and
you made your plate as big as possible.
He said, "I want all of these things.
I'm going to put all of this stuff on my
plate and my stomach is going to expand
to be able to fit it."
>> That's not the way that our stomachs
work and that is not the way that our
workloads work. So, first rule, in order
to pick something up, you have to put
something down.
Don't assume that just because you've
loaded more onto your workload plate,
your work capacity will expand to be
able to fit it into your stomach. That's
not the way that it works.
assume. Make the assumption I can do no
more than I'm doing now. I can switch
stuff, but I can't add more in. Maybe
you can. Maybe you're going to be able
to squeeze your phone time. Maybe you're
going to be able to become more
efficient, more productive, whatever.
But it's safer to just assume this is
the pie that I'm playing with. And in
order to pick something up, I have to
put something down. That's a really
important thing because at the moment
it's December 29th. I'm with I'm full of
gusto and motivation and I can't wait.
I'm going to crush it. And yeah, for the
first week, maybe you've got that. But
if you're using motivation and
enthusiasm to work yourself through your
goals, your goals are predicated largely
on a fuel source that you don't have
control over. Don't have a massive
amount of control over your motivation
over a long amount of time. Like it
comes and then it goes. You want
something that's a little bit more
rigid. So in order to pick something up,
you have to put something down. I think
that's a really important point because
when we think about the goals we'll
start setting at this time of the year,
all of them are asking for more time or
more energy. Like pretty much all of
them ask for I want to start running. I
want to start going to the gym. Whereas,
as you say, that means I'm going to have
to take something off the plate. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And we don't think about subtraction at
this time of the year. Typically, we
don't think I'm going to spend less time
with my friends. I'm going to cut out
Netflix. We think of addition. Mhm.
>> But logically there's still just just
the 24 hours in a day and that the
finite amount of body budget that we
have in terms of energy. So are you
saying that I have to create both an
addition and subtraction list and make
sure that they equal out they net out to zero?
zero?
>> That would be optimal. I think one
question that you really should be
asking yourself. Let's go through a
bunch of uncomfortable questions people
can ask themselves. That could be cool. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
How would I spend my day if I wanted to
make 85year-old me as miserable as possible?
possible?
>> What is it that I did over the last year
that made me right now feel
feel
it's this constriction. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> I I I don't like I don't like my
relationship with my phone. I spend a
lot of time on my phone. I don't like
how uh my mornings aren't very
productive. Uh I've noticed that when
I'm with my friends, I'm not very
present. I've noticed that I spend a lot
of time on my own. I tend to isolate
when things get difficult. I've noticed
that I've got into the habit of not
telling the truth when people ask me a
question. I've noticed that I've got
into the habit of not advocating for my
needs when I should do. I don't hold my
boundaries sufficiently well. Like, this
is why the reflection part's really
important. So,
what would I do to make 85-year-old me
as miserable as possible? How would I
spend my day? And in what ways am I
already doing that? Well,
a lot of those are going to cross over.
That ven diagram is not going to be as
far apart as you might think it is. I've
heard you ask the question before about
if someone was watching this and it was
a movie. What was that?
>> Yes. I mean I mean it's the this
question is so fantastic.
If your life was a movie and the
audience were watching up to this point,
what would they be screaming at the
screen telling you to do with your life?
They would be it is obvious. Leave the
relationship. The job is not working for
you. The killer's hiding in the cupboard.
cupboard. >> [snorts]
>> [snorts]
>> What would the audience be screaming at
the screen telling you to do with your life?
life?
>> So, you've asked three questions and I'm
going to ask you those three questions. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> So, the first question you asked was
about what would have to happen at
[clears throat] the end of next year to
look back and consider this year a
success. So, for you personally, I want
to spend more time thinking about ideas
and less time caught up of doing admin.
>> Uh admin is a drain on me. I don't enjoy
I don't enjoy emails. I don't enjoy the
operations of that sort of stuff.
>> Spend time making or
>> Yeah, I want to be in maker mode, not
manager mode,
>> would be a way to put it. Uh, I want to
spend more time with my friends. I've
been soloreneur grind set, you know,
pick it up and lift it type thing a lot
for the last forever. More time with my
friends, more time connecting with
people. So,
that's two things. Like, if I can do
that, spend more time with my friends
and less time doing admin. Now, one of
the problems that you have is and I want
to lose 20 pounds and I want to get my
bench press up to 200 kilos and I want
to do this and it's like really like do
you really really really want that?
Because when I think about it, I have
like much more gentle goals have much
broader goals and that's the stuff that
I think is important to me.
>> And if we think about your subtraction
framework, what what are you going to
have to subtract?
>> Well, what's interesting about those is
that actually those aren't necessarily
additions. The friends thing is an
addition, but the executive functioning
thing, the admin burden is not. So,
actually, that's nice because I want to
do less of that thing, which should
hopefully open up a little bit of time.
What would I need to get rid of? I'd
realistically need to get rid of some
time sat in front of my computer doing
boring admin stuff. [gasps] I'd probably
need to spend less time scrolling on my
phone, less time on social media. I
would maybe need to make some sacrifices
in training as well. If I'm going to go
out with my friends a little bit more in
an evening, I'm gonna have to get up a
bit later. So, there's some of the
trades that we're gonna have to make.
>> The other question was around if this
was a movie and the audience was
screaming at you. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> What would they be screaming?
>> You're already doing enough.
You're already doing enough. Stop
whipping yourself into submission,
thinking that your happiness sits on the
other side of the next set of goals that
you're going to achieve. You've already
achieved goals that you said would make
you happy.
So if you haven't made it now, if this
isn't when life is going to begin, then
when when when are you going to start?
There's this uh wonderful idea of the
the deferred life hypothesis. Deferred
life hypothesis is basically the sort of
common belief that our life hasn't yet
begun. That what's happening now is a
sort of prelude. It's an intro to our
life truly beginning. And upon
reflection, what a lot of people realize
is that this prelude that they run
through was a mirage that sort of faded
as they approached and they were
actually just running toward the end of
their life. Like they're permanently
putting things off. I get it. People
have got realistic structural monetary
requirements. They've got to get up.
They've got to go to work. They've got
to [ __ ] change their nappy. They've
got to walk their dog. They've got
things that they need to do. That's not
what I'm talking about. My point is
everybody thinks a lot of people think
in one form or another that my life will
begin when they're holding their
happiness hostage. They're in a holding
pattern like a plane that can't land for
some reason. It's like what if that what
if that never changes? What if your
problems in life are never ever going to
go away? What if problems are always
going to be there? What then? Oh wow.
Well, I'm never going to arrive. That
means I need to start living now. And I
think for me there's definitely a lot of
um I will get there when once the tasks
of today are completed once the problems
are gotten through. There'll never be a
time when there's no problems in life.
Problems are a feature, not a bug.
>> I sometimes wonder if this is a trait of
just human evolution. Like it makes
survival sense for it to be hardwired
into my genetic code to strive to
basically continue to strive like to
continue to conquer to continue to
build. And in fact, maybe if my
ancestors didn't have that, we wouldn't
be sat in a room now with all these
lights and fancy cameras and such
because this is the consequence of a
species that strive. And so I wonder if
this is like the curse of being human,
which is we just endlessly strive and
then we die. And because we did our our
offspring have a higher rate of
survival. And like when I speak to
people from, you know, like East Asian
traditions and stuff, they talk about
being at peace and being at one and
being satisfied and all these things,
but it seems so alien to me to be satisfied.
satisfied.
>> I I I I think I live in a dichotomy
where I'm like well aware nothing will
change my happiness and then at the same
time I'm completely striving as if it
would. Of course, that's a human
condition. We habituate in both
directions. So if your ancestors had
been satisfied when they got to a cave,
when their family grew and they needed a
bigger cave, when you don't just go and
find one bush, you find a ton of bushes
and then you expand and that gives you
additional security.
>> But unfortunately in the modern world,
that causes us with an infinite amount
of things that we can do and can chase
after. We sacrifice the important for
the urgent. The urgent's always in front
of us. the email, the next meeting. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And this is again, why should anybody
care about doing an annual review?
Should anybody care about the new year?
Well, you're busy living your life for
almost the entirety of the year. And
this is one moment where the urgent can
just take a tiny bit of a backseat and
the important can come through. Who have
I been over the last year? What do I
want from next [clears throat] year?
Every single year is a chapter of your life.
life.
for next year. It's chapter 38 for me.
What do I want that chapter to be about?
>> Do you think there's a single a single
change you could make to your life that
would yield the greatest return on
happiness? Like if you could go into
your own hardware
>> and rewrite the code a little bit.
>> I think less striving would actually
make me happier. I think that a lot of
striving and a desire for success comes
from a sense of insufficiency. Like if
only the world recognized my brilliance,
then I will be validated. And it takes a
long time to realize that you don't fix
internal voids with external accolades.
The problem with that is it's an
unteachable lesson. You try and tell
people that money won't fix your
happiness problem or fame won't fix your
self-worth problem. You should see your
parents more. Time in a hammock is never
wasted. You don't love that pretty girl.
She's just hot and difficult to get.
Like all of these things are only
lessons that you can learn once you've
got there. And people who haven't yet
gotten there think, "Well, that's easy
for you to say." And then when they
arrive, for some reason they seem to
evangelize the same insights like
somebody that's just gone through
religious revelation. So either one of
two things is true. People who achieve a
thing are lying about the fact that that
thing didn't fix their problems, their
internal void with external accolades
because of they're part of some cartel
that's trying to pull the ladder up
after they've just gotten in.
>> Or it's the truth, but it's it's an
unteachable lesson. You will not
understand that that thing outside won't
fix your internal void until you get
there. And I I actually think to Naval
quote, it's far easy to achieve our
material desires than to renounce them.
Like if you want a Ferrari, it's much
easier to actually work real hard and
try and like or get some nice car,
whatever it is, so that you learn that
the car isn't the thing that you want
than it is to rid yourself of the desire
for the car overall. And that's not to
say that getting a Ferrari is easy. is
to say that getting rid of the desire is
essentially impossible.
>> I think me and you are probably two guys
that at some deep level had some kind of
internal void. Is that accurate statement?
statement?
>> Of course. Are you speaking in the past tense?
tense?
>> Have. [laughter]
>> Have. Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> You've now accomplished so much. You're
like one of the biggest podcasters on
planet earth. You're you're famous.
People know who you are.
>> Biggest in the world talking to second
biggest in the [laughter] world. Congratulations.
Congratulations.
>> But people know who you are. You've got,
you know, money. You've got freedom now.
You can go wherever you want. do
whatever you want. People know who you
are. You get restaurant t reservation tables.
tables.
>> You did it.
>> Is it what you expected? And has has it
actually changed that internal void?
>> The interesting thing is I never
actually thought I was going to amount
to much. I was just I was just really
interested in what was doing what what I
was doing what was in front of me. I
didn't think
this is going to lead to me being some
achieving something or living in America
or whatever. Each different step got me
there. But no, of course not. Of course.
The the the unteachable lesson has
smashed me in the face, which is
fame won't fix your self worth, money
won't make you happy, you should see
your parents more, you can take a day
off. Like all of these lessons, you have
to live them to learn them,
unfortunately. And my last question on
this is when I asked about the change to
your code that you'd make, you talked
about fixing the striving. What's been
the downside of the striving?
>> There's a a common sense of not
enoughness like I will be enough when
right because you can either run away
from something you want or run towards
something uh run yeah run away from
something you fear or run towards
something you want.
>> And what's the consequence of that not enoughness?
enoughness?
>> It's a sense of lack. It's also a
provisional life. It's putting life off.
I will be
happy, satisfied, peaceful when
>> And is that a thought you have?
>> It's more like an embodied sense. Feel
it. Yeah, I very much feel it. It's this
thriving. It's this pull. It's this sort
of magnetism moving forward.
>> But yeah, dude. Uh if your life was a
movie and the audience were watching up
to this point, what would they be
screaming at the screen telling you to
do? It's usually a very reliable
indicator of where you should be putting
your attention. So, as we think about
next year that the things one should aim at.
at.
>> Um, what I've heard you I think you said
on the high performance podcast, you
said you're really obsessed with
understanding what success actually is.
>> So, I I also just before we go into the
more practical things,
>> if someone sat at home and I know people
come up to you on your tours and ask you
questions like this a lot, if they're
sat at home trying to figure out what
success actually is for them, is there a
framework or a principle or a method to
figure out what it might mean for them?
I've heard you talk about two ideas
which I love which is the region beta
paradox but also the parable of the
Mexican fisherman which I think both
stayed with me in a profound way. Yeah. So
So
three things success region beta uh
Mexican fisherman what success looks
like for any individual person is going
to be different for you knowing that you
really want a family. There's people out
there that like I'm not that fussed. I
don't think that that's on the cards for
me and that's fine. Other people might
really really want to put the workload
down and step off and and go and do the
dad or the mom thing. Unfortunately, you
can't take somebody else's purpose or
success. Like that's that's you can't
wear it as a suit. It's a bad idea,
right? Cuz it's going to not fit. And um
wonderful line, let go or be dragged. If
something doesn't fit, eventually it's
going to hurt wearing it. And that means
if you're not careful with how you
design what it is that you chase after,
you can spend your entire life realizing
that you climbed a huge [ __ ] ladder,
a very, very long ladder that was
leaning up against the wrong wall.
>> And uh you need to ensure that you don't
do that. And this is why we need to just
sit with ourselves, sit with a little
bit of reflection. And that's why this
time in between Christmas and New Year,
I think, is a really wonderful time to
do this. So, how do you work out what it
is that you want to do? the big picture
goals are going to be hard for you to to
get to. But if you just think one year
ahead, what do I want over the next 12
months? I think that usually helps you.
And maybe you want to be in a
relationship. I want to be in a
committed relationship with someone who
really loves me. Okay, now we can start
to talk about a plan to do that. But you
need to have a little bit of silence.
It's like a problem with permanently
being busy stops you from being able to
listen to fleeting thoughts that are in
the back of your mind. Mhm.
>> And that quiet voice is usually the
really powerful one. But
the there's a wonderful line, the
answers you seek are in the silence
you're avoiding.
The answers that you seek are in the
silence you're avoiding.
>> Do you meditate?
>> Of course you do. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> No.
>> No.
>> Yeah. Do you? >> No.
>> No.
>> Do you wish you did?
>> I think the the definition of meditation
is quite blurry because for me when I'm
I I will have a shower for like 30
minutes and all I'm doing in there is
thinking. I'm not cleaning. [laughter]
Like I'm clean after five minutes.
>> I was gonna say it suggests that you
come out of the shower not clean but
with great ideas.
>> Exactly. [laughter]
>> No, but I I I mean you get clean in like
5 minutes, but then I spend the other 25
minutes because there's something about
the waterfalling and the alone time that
drops me into a a spiral of thinking
which I think is my version of
meditation. Then treadmills and the
stepper at the gym.
>> Treadmills are great. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> My version of meditation.
>> Shower thoughts are overrated. Toilet
thoughts are underrated. The other thing
that I I love that you talk about is
what it when we talk about metrics of
success, you talk about observable
metrics and hidden metrics
>> of success.
>> Yeah. So, a lot of the time we'll trade
a hidden metric for an observable
metric. Something that's observable
would be your job title, what your
salary is per year, how many people know
you, your bank balance, the size of your
house, the car that you drive,
>> things people can see.
>> Yeah, of course. The only way that your
success can be judged is outwardly. So
naturally we trade something which
people can't see for something that they
can see. For instance, lots of people
would trade a longer commute for a
higher salary or um
a better job title. One of the problems
that you encounter with that is that the
length of your commute is one of the
most correlated uh stats with your
happiness. Longer commutes reliably make
people more miserable. And what's the
hidden metric that you've lost by doing
that? Well, that's less time with your
family, with maybe your kids that are
growing up, with your wife to connect,
that's less time to pursue your own
passions, even if your job is your
passion. So, what about uh a more
stressful career? Going to move into a
different industry that's way more
stressful, but it pays more observable
metric. What's the hidden metric? What
about the peace of mind that you have as
you go to sleep at night? What about
what that does to your health and the
quality of your relationships and your
ability to be present on a weekend?
because you're not able to turn your
phone off because your last job was 9
to5, but this one is 247.
Well, it's difficult to say because
you're like, people want and need real
resources. I want to improve the quality
of my family. That's a noble thing to
do. But after a while, you have to admit
if you already live a comfortable
quality of life and you trade it,
you you trade your happiness or your
your peace in order to get more,
you're making a bad choice because
you're going to sacrifice something that
you want, which is happiness, peace,
connection for something that's supposed
to get the thing that you want, which is
money, job title, bigger car,
>> which I think links to the story of the
Mexican fisher.
>> Yeah. Parable of the Mexican fisherman. Uh,
Uh,
an American businessman was away on a
holiday in Mexico and he got taken out
by a fisherman and he asked the
fisherman, "So, what do you do each
day?" The fisherman said, "I spend each
morning out on the water. I fish a
little. I catch some food. I take it
home and I sit in my house with my wife
and my family and we eat what I've
caught for the day." The American says,
"That's stupid. This a stupid idea. what
you should do is you should get a bigger
boat and then you could catch more fish
and then you could go sell it at the
market. The fisherman said, "Why would I
do that?" So, well, once you've sold it
at the market, you could buy some more
boats and you could get your friends to
come and work for you and then they
could catch more fish and you could
start to sell it wholesale. Fisherman
said, "Why would I do that?" So, well
then you could create a canning factory
and you could export it back to the UK
and you could have a huge business.
Fisherman said, "Why would I do that?"
So well then you would be able to retire
and fish a little on a morning, catch
some fish, and then spend the afternoon
with your family. [laughter]
And it's the same lesson as Paulo Qua's
The Alchemist, which is this young boy
goes on a huge big journey and he finds
out the thing that he was looking for
was in the back garden all along. But
that's an unteachable lesson. And the
big lesson behind The Alchemist is
going on a massive journey to end up
back where you started is not the same
as having never left.
And this is what an unteachable lesson
is. You have to go to the top of the
mountain to get up there and go, "Damn it.
it.
Damn it." Like, I thought that was going
to be the answer. But now that it's not,
I can rid myself of that. I've crossed
it off. And it's so unpopular. It's so
unpopular to talk about this online
because everybody that doesn't have a
thing assumes that the thing will fix
their problems and that the people who
have got there, achieved it, and say
that it didn't are ungrateful.
like, "Oh my god, the thing that I want
and they're just casting it away." Like,
how dare you? How dare you say that the
thing that I know I want isn't the
answer to my problems.
And yet, reliably,
everybody that gets there says it's not
the answer.
It's very true. I was thinking back to
all the goals that I wrote in my diary
at 18 years old, and then it's no
surprise that that I have none of those
things now. They're all like material
things and outcomes I was looking for.
Let me give you another one. A great
question to reflect on. Knowing what I
know now,
what advice would I give myself 12
months ago?
Do you know what mine would be? Mine
would be around it would be about around prioritization.
prioritization.
It would really be around the saying no.
Like [clears throat] we we don't really
teach it goes back to what you're saying
about adding and subtracting, but my
life would be much better if I was
even 10% better at saying no to things. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> It would be so much better. I'd be so
much more s upside isn't like 10%
upside. It's like 50 100% upside because
the compounding force of focus.
>> Okay. So that's what advice you would
have given yourself 12 months ago
knowing what you know now. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Guess what?
>> Well, it's almost certainly what you
[snorts]
>> The big problems are the big problems.
In the same way that you've got the feat
that you had a decade ago, the big
drivers psychologically for you tend to
be the same throughout your life. Uh, I
put other people's happiness ahead of
mine. Maybe that showed up when I was a
child and I didn't speak up to mom when
I felt upset because I was worried that
it would upset her. Maybe that happened
when I got into my first job and I
didn't advocate for myself when my boss
was treating me poorly. Maybe that
happens when I get into a relationship
and I'm scared of making my needs known
to my partner because I'm worried that
they're going to reject me or think
lesser of me. When it comes to my child,
I'm terrified to discipline them because
I need their love and I don't want them
to make them upset. This is a single
trend that's occurring throughout your
life and all of the time. One of the
most common questions that people ask is
what would you tell yourself 10 years
ago? Great question to ask. Not because
it's trit, but because it is almost
always the very same thing that you need
to hear right now.
>> What would you have said it 12 months
>> Stop working so hard.
>> Stop working. Take a day off. Take a day
off. Take a day off per week. Put your
phone down. Put your phone down. go
outside, touch some grass, and it's the
same thing now. It's the exact same
thing now.
>> Do you think you're going to accomplish
it? [laughter]
>> I don't know. I don't know, man. I mean,
you know, I'm trying. I'm trying. But
behavioral design, I I've got better.
The one thing that I can say and the
beautiful thing about the end of your um
review, there are some resolutions
which I decided on a decade ago that I
still do now. And I think that's really
cool. So when I'm faced with the
opportunity to plan because I gave
myself a little bit of space, right? And
it never happened. Very few of the
habits that randomly appeared in the
middle of July are ones that I've stuck
with and I really care about. Bad ones
maybe. I maybe accumulated bad habits in
the middle of July, but most of the ones
that I really love that are very
conscious that are aligned with where I
want to go, they're ones that I
consciously designed, right? They're
ones that were done purposefully and
that's always been around a review
period. So, yeah, end of the year is not
special. When else you going to do it,
right? When else are you going to do it?
But yeah, 12 months ago and and 10 years
ago, I was doing the same thing.
Different industry, running nightclubs,
chill out, take a day off. So, what is
this annual review template that I have
in front of me?
>> At the end of each year, you need to
have some sort of a format. Uh, if
anyone wants to go and download it, they
can go to chriswilx.com/re.
It's totally free. They can just copy
and paste it into their notes app of
choice and then fill it in. I realized
that this big question of it's the end
of the year and I need to look back on
it. I want to uh reflect on what went
well and badly and I want to plan my
goals. without a a structure, you're
just like cast out a drift, freewheeling
everywhere, and you have no idea what to
do. So, there's a bunch of questions.
Stuff like, "How has this year gone?
What went well? What went badly? And
why? What lessons did I learn? What
habit or system accounted for most of my
success? What are the most valuable ways
that I spend my time? How can I find
more time for this?" There's a section
for memories. What was the best
surprise, best meal, coolest new
experience, my favorite new city, my
favorite new friend? What was my
favorite day or my most intense day? Was
the best sex I had? What's my favorite
quote and song and artist? And then
there's a plan. What would I do this
year if I wanted to make 85-year-old me
miserable? What are the things I do to
make my day go great?
What do I think is productive that isn't?
isn't?
What is productive that I don't realize?
Those are two big ones. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
And then there's some final thoughts.
What would have to have happened by the
end of next year to look back and
consider it a success? Who do I need to
become for the next chapter of my life
to go the way that I want? Knowing what
I know now, what advice would I give
myself 12 months ago? So for the people
that are frantically taking notes, they
can just go to chriswallex.com/re. And
this is this is available for free.
>> You mentioned there that goals you set
10 years ago are still some of your most
important today. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> What are those goals that you cherish
the most? Habits, goals that you cherish
the most that you you set out to
accomplish 10 years ago. So, I reflected
last year on the highest ROI resolutions
that I've ever done. And what I think
would be cool would be if people put the
single best return on investment res re
resolution that they've ever done in the
comments cuz that will create maybe the
biggest repository of the highest value
New Year's resolutions that anybody's
ever had and the best ones will get
updated and the bad ones will be heavily
criticized in the replies. So, that
could be kind of cool. Okay, so that was
an instruction which means if you're
listening right now, leave a comment
below with the resolution you set
yourself at any point in the past that
returned the most for you in any in any
area of your life.
>> You love it the most.
>> And if you agree with someone's, please
hit the like button on their comment,
too. And this should create, as Chris
says, a repository of the most
impactful, highest ROI resolutions.
>> I think that's cool, dude. I want to do
it. I want to know what everyone else's
big resolutions are. So, I'll I'll give
you mine. Okay. No phone in the bedroom
at night. charge it outside. >> Interesting.
>> Interesting.
>> It's an instant 15% quality of life increase.
increase. >> Why?
>> Why?
>> Because when you start your day, if you
use your phone as your alarm, you roll
over, you turn the alarm off, and
immediately you're looking at your
phone. You haven't got up, you haven't
got moving, you're not hydrated, you're
not seeing sunlight in your eyes, you are
are
hit in the face by the world telling you
what's happening as opposed to you
having a tiny little microcosm of peace,
this little oasis for you. Now, I get
it. People that have got young kids are
hit in the face by the children, not by
the phone. But even if you do, adding
the phone and the scroll and everything
else on top, that means you're not
present with the kids. So, even if the
kids are a problem, you don't need to
have the phone in there. You wake up, it
means that you're always on the other
side. The world is happening to you.
You're not happening to the world. When
you go to bed on a nighttime, you're
going to be using your phone before you
go to sleep, which means that you're
going to cut into your sleep time.
you're going to be uh in an environment
digitally that's going to make yourself
feel horrendous. It's not good. It's not
good for sleep. Whether it's the blue
light, there's a little bit of research
that seems to say that it's not the blue
light so much as it is the scroll sort
of dopamine trigger adrenal intermittent
schedule reward thing that that's the
the main issue of what's going on. But
it also means if you can't sleep, you
know, you can just roll over and pick
your phone up and now you're two hours
into a YouTube scroll hole. That's who
you truly are. By the way, people think
that who you are is, you know, your
journal entries, your diary entries. No,
no. Who you truly are are the videos
that you watch on YouTube between 10
p.m. and 12:00 p.m. at night when you
can't sleep. That's who you really are.
So, getting your phone and putting it
outside of the bedroom is no cost.
There's no reason to not do it. The only
reason to not do it is somebody needs to
ring you or something like that. I get
it. Maybe you've got kids that are out
late and you need to make sure that
they're okay in case some sort of
catastrophe occurs. Really, there are
very few excuses to not have it outside.
Radio alarm clocks have existed for
forever. Buy a radio alarm clock. Take
your phone cable now and put it in the
kitchen or put it in the living room or
something or put it on the other side of
the room, right? Cuz you don't want to
wake up and charge on your phone. The
it's the single biggest improves quality
of sleep. It means that your mornings
are better. It means that your nights
are better. It means you're less
distracted. It means you spend less time
on your phone. you're forced to do
something even tiny bit more productive
like watch Netflix or read a book or
talk to your partner. It's interesting
because I was thinking about this
through a four quadrant graph
>> drawing a diagram
>> where [laughter] I'll throw it up on the
screen please and make it look better
editing team because this nobody's going
to be able this is not coherent but on
one axis you've got things that are low
effort and on the other axis you've got
things that are high return and this is
right up in the top right which is like
very low effort high return habit yeah
which is probably where one should aim
most but I imagine a lot of us are
aiming at like high effort low return
>> uh morning walk every day
>> okay morning walk slightly higher effort
>> uh The research around this is is
fantastic. Humans obviously pushed this
a lot. Morning sunlight in your eyes,
even if you don't have the sun. Even if
you're somewhere dark and cold and wet,
doesn't matter. Getting up and doing uh
ambulation, so walking through an
environment while your eyes scan left
and right seems to tune down your fear
response. It makes uh your amygdala just
a little bit more calm. So regardless of
whether if there's sunlight, fantastic,
that'll be even better. 5 minutes, 10
minutes. And I know people have got
structural limitations. This is me
assuming that you've got like 20 minutes
on a morning that you could slot this
into. And if you're not waking up with
your phone in your hand, that probably
is the 20 minutes, right? Little walk,
bit of fresh air, just get up, put your
shoes on, get going, just get moving.
You don't need to think. You don't need
to do anything at all. Don't need to
brush your teeth. Get up and go.
Probably need to get to the bathroom,
actually. Get up and go. Uh, no caffeine
within 90 minutes of waking. Just push
your caffeine a little bit later. It
seems like the adenosine system isn't
dominant during the first 90 minutes of
the day. Your adrenal system is.
>> So adenosine is the the receptors that
deal with caffeine and tightness.
>> And tightness. Exactly. And caffeine
binds to it and it stops you from
feeling tired. Salt act on your adrenal
system. So if you use some sort of
electrolyte drink first thing in the
morning, that will help to get that
moving. But the main reason for this,
regardless of the research, most people
have a 100 pm slump, feel a little bit
tired. And I think if you just push that
caffeine a little bit later, just see if
you can hold on. When you wake up, you
should be okayish, just the natural
cortisol, you've gone for a little walk,
you know, you're here we are, the day
has begun. Do you really need a c a
coffee within 20 minutes of waking?
That's what most people's first thing
is. Just see what happens. Test it. See
what happens if you push it back by 90
minutes and see how you feel. At least
for me, I know that that works well.
No alcohol for 6 months. This is a big
one. This is much more high effort for a
lot of people, even people that don't
drink that much. Uh because a lot of the
parties and things that you attend, are
not superbly fun. And some people use
alcohol in order to make their family or
the wedding or the birthday a little bit
more comfortable.
>> A social lubricant.
>> Correct. Yeah, of course. But if you
take alcohol out for about six months,
what it forces you to do is think, do I
really want to go to that party? I'm
actually having to anesthetize myself of
the people that I'm around. Like, if you
can only bear to be around your friends
when you're drinking, that's probably
not a good indication. And if your
friends only want you to be around them
when you're drinking, they're not
friends, they're drinking partners.
So, I think alcohol is a a big qu I just
like it. It just makes me have more fun.
All Hey, I get it. But I think if people
look at it closely, they realize that
they're using alcohol as a bit of a
crutch. They're using it to bolster
themselves in a way. What's interesting
is it's one of those areas where you
don't understand the hidden cost until
you really give it up for a while. And
and I think about my own relationship
with drinking and I stopped drinking at
30 years old. I'm now 33. And I had just
drank because I just drank. I'd never
ran the experiment of just giving it up
for a while. And I and then at like I
don't know maybe I was at 31. I thought,
you know, I'll have a drink again
>> because now I could really AB test it.
I'd had a year of not drinking. Decided
to have a drink again.
>> It ruined three days of my life. I had a
couple of glasses of wine, didn't get
drunk. It ruined three days of my life
because of the the domino effect it
caused. So it meant that I got worse
sleep that night and then because I got
worse sleep that night. I ate more
poorly the the next day because my my
dopamine system or whatever the cortisol
system was all messed up
>> and then I I podcasted worse. I didn't
go to the gym the the day after that
that day or the day after because of
that because I felt really bad. I then
slept worse and I could track all of
this on my weight. Hashtag ad
hashtagsponsor hashtag investor whatever.
whatever. >> Bye.
>> Bye.
>> Yeah. And I was like, "Oh my god, those
three glasses of wine had this hidden
domino effect that I must have been
living with for my whole life."
>> Dude, so many people want to build
habits. They want to build meditation
routine. They want to go to the gym more
consistently. They want to improve their
eating habits. They don't realize that
the thing that's stopping them from
doing that is sat at the bottom of the
glass of wine that they have four nights
a week. It's tough. Some people are able
to do it and they don't mind. The
costbenefit ratio for some people is
great. I'm just saying try just try try
six months. The reason that you need to
put an end date on it is that you have
it's like running a race where you know
that there's a finish line. If there's
no finish line, it's really hard to run
the race. How are you motivating
yourself to get there? I think that 90
days would be the absolute minimum. 30
days isn't long enough. You need longer,
right? And especially given that the
hardest bit is the start, which means
that you've paid all of the pain at the
very beginning to not actually get any
of the benefits of this being my new habit.
habit.
>> Do it [clears throat] with an
accountability buddy. Do it with your
partner. Say, "Hey, I listened to those
two British idiots talk about how not
drinking might be a good idea." Why
don't we do that? Why don't we try going
sober until July? You haven't missed the
summer, right? The summer's just about
to kick in. So, if you think, "Oh, I
can't wait to get back to drinking." You
can have a a beer in a beer garden.
a huge proportion of people will not
want to go back to drinking. They'll do
it, take time off, get into it, and realize
realize
I actually don't like this. I love the
fact I got more
reward from building good habits, from
now having a meditation practice, from
now getting up on time, from being able
to go to the gym more. I've become more
dependent on that than I ever was on the
alcohol. This is an idea you when we
talk about habits and when we read these
habit books, we we're often aiming at
like the ninth domino in a set of dominoes.
dominoes.
>> And I was just thinking then like the
conversation probably needs to start
with what are like the foundational
things. What is the first domino?
Because we know from science that what I
choose to eat is heavily impacted by my
hormone balance today and my hormone
balance is impacted by my sleep, my
emotional regulation, all these things.
A lot of people aim at domino number
nine and think, "Oh, we'll change that
one." Having no idea that actually this
is downstream from a set of other
foundational decisions. And you know,
even as someone that sits here with
scientists and experts all the time, if
my like core state isn't good,
the chance that I'm going to pick the
right thing or go to the gym is
extremely low. Being smart is basically
pointless unless you're at peace.
Like [clears throat] any amount of
intelligence can be overridden by ego or
insecurity or immorality or bad
incentives or impatience or poor sleep.
>> Yeah, sleep is, as far as I can see,
just it's the the pebble at the top of
the avalanche. It's the gateway drug to
everything else being horrendous. Your
caffeine use is impacting your sleep.
Your phone use is impacting your sleep.
Your alcohol in an evening time is
impacting your sleep. If you think that
you drink in order to go to sleep,
you're not sleeping. You're sedating
yourself. Okay. So, if we can sort the
sleep out, how many other things open
up? But you don't sort the sleep out.
You sort the caffeine intake out and you
sort the nighttime phone use out and you
sort the drinking out and then oh my
god, I've got all of this extra
willpower. The thing that I thought was
the issue, which was I kind of always
feel a bit tired and sluggish on the
morning or I always want to eat salty
foods around midday or I always, you
know, always just can't think too
straight for the first couple of hours.
It's like the problem might be hiding at
the bottom of the glass.
>> We think the cause is actually a
symptom. I just noticed this because you
know when I I changed a couple of core
foundational things like exercise and
sleep, everything became everything was lubricated.
lubricated.
>> What's your highest ROI New Year's resolutions?
resolutions?
>> Oh, my highest ROI New Year's resolution
was actually a change in a previous
resolution. So my previous resolution in
2017 was I'm going to go to the gym
every day.
Ended up being a terrible resolution,
>> a horrendous resolution. [laughter]
>> Yeah. So 2017 it was go to the gym every
day and I got about four or five months
in, I missed a day, the resolution's
done because it was a it was a
completable resolution in an area of my
life where I didn't I need an
incompletable resolution. So 2018, my
resolution became consistency in the gym.
gym.
>> And this is when everything changed
because consistency is a a goal I get a
shot at every day irrespective of what
happened yesterday.
>> And I've got the rule. I've got the
rule. Let me give you the rule. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> This is from all of the habit stuff.
James Cle has been on my show. I think
he's been on your show too.
>> Yeah, he has.
>> Yeah. Uh best habit book of all time,
Atomic Habits. Of all of the things,
there's only two that have really,
really, really stuck. This is the best
rule when it comes to habits. Never miss
two days in a row. Like you are not
going to be able to go to the gym every
day. There will be one day when an
absolute catastrophe occurs. You ate
some dodgy sushi last night.
You can't go. But what you have is
one missed day is an error. Two missed
days is the start of a new habit.
And it alleviates this all or nothing
mentality that we all have. If you put a
packet of biscuits in front of me and
you, we say, "You can have none of them
or you can have all of them." Easy. Tell
me to have two of them. [ __ ] you, dude.
I'm not going to have two. No one has
two biscuits, right? You have all of the
biscuits or you have none of the
biscuits. And that's kind of humans are
absolutist creatures. Like think in extremes.
extremes.
>> Yeah. Going to be super super dialed in
on my diet and it's going to be great
and I'm going to get up and do my
meditation and do the rest or I'm going
to go full DGEN mode and I'm partying
and it's a beaather and so on and so
forth. Like there is no middle ground
really with this and that means that
small errors can snowball into complete
uh demolitions of the habit. But if you
just think okay at some point this year
I'm going to miss it. And the rule is if
I missed it yesterday I have to do it
today. And that alleviates your issue
which was I cranked it for the first
couple of months and then one day came
in and I thought h and then the second
day and then I thought well this is just
me now.
>> The other trap that I've noticed in that
is one of my friends had great success
with a new habit with going to the gym
for like three or four months. He he
messages us in the group chat. He says I
finally cracked it. I finally figured
out how to do this. And I said to him at
the time, I said, "Listen, mate. Like
the best the best thought I've ever had
that's made my habits be consistent is
the realization that you never crack
it." And actually thinking about the day
when I fall off the horse and what my
strategy is for getting back on the
horse. Like being really really
cognizant of the fact that at some point
I'm going to eat the sushi and it's
going to [ __ ] up my belly or [laughter]
or I'm going to be on a flight from
Australia and I'm going to land and it's
going to be midnight. And like having a
strategy to get back on the horse and
this just deep belief that you never
crack any habit
>> has been the single most important thing
for me being consistent because when it
happens and I feel unmotivated and that
guilt can creep in and say you [ __ ]
it. I have a I was expecting this.
>> Yes. Of course it's not a a bug it's a feature.
feature. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> This was the price of entry. It's the
cost of doing business of trying to do
behavior change that it's not always
going to work. Mhm.
>> Um, another one, another great uh
resolution, 10-minute walk after every meal.
meal. >> Interesting.
>> Interesting.
>> Huge, huge ROI, dude. Crazy. So, it's
called a postprandial walk. Um, and what
it does is it helps to regulate glucose.
It gets your blood sugar moving. Your uh
stomach because of the contrlateral
movement of how your arms and your legs
work, the muscles actually cross across
your stomach, which helps you to digest
food. You know, you have a huge big
meal, you're having a great
conversation, and you sit there and
you're like, "Uh, I mean, this
conversation's so great, but I feel
awful. This this sucks." You just after
you go out for dinner, uh, if you got a
lunch break from work, eat your food,
10-minute little walk. Again, I
challenge people to do it and not say
that it makes them feel really good. You
go for dinner, you're with a friend,
you're out with a partner, you're
meeting somebody for the first time.
Say, "Hey, do you want to why don't we
have a little stroll?" Sometimes it's
gonna be freezing outside, whatever. You
know, do what you can. Let's go for a
little stroll. Makes a huge difference.
Huge difference.
>> What about matters of productivity?
>> Do you think much about this? Because
again, this time of year, people are
thinking about procrastination,
productivity. They're trying to get more
done. They're trying not to doom scroll
so much, be on Netflix, waste time. And
I think a lot of the guilt does come
from feeling like we're unproductive.
>> Absolutely. Yeah. There's a wonderful
idea called productivity dysmorphia. So,
it's the inability to see your own success.
success.
It's like uh to acknowledge the volume
of your own output. So it sits at the
intersection of burnout, imposttor
syndrome, and anxiety.
It's you think of it like ambitions
alter ego. Basically like the pursuit of
productivity spurs us to do more while
robbing us of the ability to savor any
of the successes that we achieve along
the way. So first off, people are not
particularly good judges of how
productive they are. I think so many
people are whipping themselves into
submission saying you're not doing
enough because in the past that
motivated them to do more.
>> Yeah. And after a while you have to
accept I'm I'm doing quite a lot. And if
you were an athlete on a sports team and
your coach only ever pointed at you when
you made a bad play, you wouldn't feel
particularly motivated by that. But a
lot of people have this sense of
productivity debt. They wake up every
day feeling as if they're already
behind. And only if they dominate their
entire day perfectly can they drag
themselves back up to some minimum level
of acceptable output. And only then can
they go to sleep that night without
feeling like a loser. This means that
you your set point is loss and the best
thing that you can do if you crush the
day is get to a draw. You never win. And
then there's this sort of weird drill
sergeant in the back of your mind that's
saying, "All right, you can have a
little bit of a break now, but just so
you know, soon as you wake up in the
morning, it's all going to happen
again." And you know, I'm speaking to a
very particular type of of mindset here
that there is a huge cohort of people on
the internet who do need David Gogggins
screaming in their face, telling them to
go harder and sort their life out.
The sort of people that listen to your
show and listen to Modern Wisdom are
probably not in that camp.
>> Do you know what's surprising? I am in
that camp. I'm in the camp of
productivity dysmorphia.
>> Mhm. Of course you are. Why is that
surprising? [laughter] Look at what
you've built. How could you not do that
with if you were seeing how much you did?
did?
>> I can't really think of many days. And
just for context, when I wake up in the
morning till, you know, 2 2 a.m. at
night, I'm working. But I can't think of
many days or really none none come to
mind where I've I've got in bed and
thought you were productive today. [ __ ]
[ __ ]
>> crushed it.
>> You met the standard
>> productivity debt. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> You woke up feeling like you're already behind
behind
>> 100%. Because of yesterday and the week
before and the month before and the
to-do list.
>> You see you see your own shortfalls from
a front row seat, right? And this is one
of the curses of people who have big
dreams, goals for themselves. the the
size of their goals is always greater
than their ability to deliver them. And
we assume that by having very very very
high standards for ourselves that that's
what what is it? Um shoot for the stars
and even if you don't get it, you'll end
up on the moon. Something like that.
>> Yeah. Whatever. Um that's great for a
while and it's very good at the
beginning of your journey,
>> but after a while I think you just need
to give yourself a [ __ ] break, dude.
Like people are
destroying themselves in this perpetual
sense of not enoughness. They're always
chasing the next thing. So that's all of
that is for me to say that people uh
want productivity, desire productivity.
I'm just trying to say you're probably
working real hard as it is. That being
said, how much do I think about
productivity and how can we like twist
the the knife a little bit more to give
people some some tools?
Best question to ask yourself. Uh, if I
could only achieve one thing today,
start of every day, if I could only
achieve one thing today, what would that
be? You're only allowed to do one thing.
And it's the big thing. It's usually the
scary thing. It's usually the thing that
you probably don't want to do. How many
times does someone go and clean the
cupboard in the kitchen that hasn't been
touched for 6 months? Rearrange. I'll
rearrange all of the plates because they
don't want to have that conversation
with their boss because they don't want
to face that particular piece of work
which is like big and scary and I don't
really know how to tackle it, how to
begin. you will do everything that
doesn't need to be done in order to
avoid the one thing that does. It's
because it's a big scary task that
people will endure months, years,
decades of misery to avoid a couple of
days of pain. And that makes sense. It's
a good trade in some ways, but over time
you're going to accumulate an awful lot
of discomfort.
>> Reminds me of what Nael said when I
interviewed him about procrastination is
the avoidance of discomfort. Um, and he
really said that most of human
motivation is just the avoidance of
discomfort because I I tried to test his
idea. I was like, "What about having
sex? That's surely the pursuit of
pleasure." He was like, "No, you get
horny, which is a form of discomfort and
in order to alleviate it, you go and
have sex where you pursue." But he said,
"All all of our behavior is driven by
discomfort." So, in your example of I've
got a big I've got to start the
manuscript for my new book, but I end up
cleaning the house. It's cuz
>> sounds like a personal example.
>> No, but it is. It's like, you know, I
remember how long I procrastinated on
starting my new book because it's like
being stood at the foot of Mount Everest
starting a book. It's huge.
>> When you think about procrastination,
which is part of pro becoming more productive,
productive,
>> what what in your mind are the causes of
me me avoiding the thing that I should
be doing? As far as I can see, there's
two main reasons for procrastination.
The first one is you don't know what to
do. So, you have this big book in front
of you, but nobody's ever written a
book. they've written a sentence and
then that sentence has accumulated over
time into pages and paragraphs and then
a book appears or you've reviewed a
book, you've looked at the edit, you've
made a decision about the color for the
front cover, but you do what's called a
next action from uh getting things done,
David Allen's productivity strategy.
People want a really really great
productivity strategy. Getting things
done by David Allen is is about as good
as you can get.
You do a next action. So, I'm
procrastinating over a task. What is the
next physical action that I can do that
pushes me toward that goal? I need to
write an email. Well, you better go and
open your email client. Right? If you
don't have your email client open, it is
impossible for you to send the email.
Well, actually, before that, I need to
sit down at my desk. Actually, before
that, I might need to put my pants on.
Okay, pants are on. Hooray. I'm moving.
I'm down at the desk. All right, there
we go. I opened Instagram. [ __ ] Okay,
close Instagram. Email client. That's
the next action. So any bit, what is it
like? Uh completing a marathon is just a
ton of steps one in front of the other.
Like it's just one foot in front of the
other. Do this really really big thing
by breaking it down into small chunks.
That's the first reason in my opinion
for procrastination.
>> Before we move on to the second thing,
it reminds me of something Jordan
Peterson said to me about um why people
don't change their life. He said people
don't change their life because the
first steps to doing so are so embar so
small that it's like embarrassing.
Correct. And he told me the story of a
guy who he was trying to get to change
his life. This person wouldn't leave
their bedroom. Plates stacked to the
ceiling, messy bedroom. And on day one,
he walks in, they put a vacuum cleaner
in there, they do nothing else. Day two,
they come back, they plug it in, nothing
else. Day three, they come back, they
turn it on, nothing else. And by the end
of the 30 days, this guy is out of his
bedroom, his room is clean, and he's out
in out in the world, which he was scared
of. And it always made me think like the
the first step to real change isn't some
great leap which is going to cause huge
cognitive dissonance and discomfort. It
is often so embarrassingly small that we
don't think it's consequential. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And I think about that with my life all
the time. I'm like actually maybe the
first step here is just like
buying buying a notepad,
>> you know, to start writing my book.
There is definitely a sense that
focusing our attention on a small step
kind of reveals the smallalness of our
lives that like, oh my god, I said that
I I sat down at my desk. like how
pitiful is this really how small I've
become. I should have this big cathedral
of achievements and monumental stuff.
You go, well, yeah, but how do you get
there? We got to lay the first break.
Um, so humility, being humble and uh
compassionate to yourself. Okay, I I I
did a thing today. I went for a walk,
felt like crap. I ate this bad sushi
last night and I, you know, I did one
thing did one thing, one small thing
that moved me toward my goal. So anyway,
>> maybe that's because we never get to see
that first small step. We get to see the
outcome. So if I'm thinking about
becoming a podcaster and following in
your footsteps,
>> I see you've got this [ __ ] digital
screen with where you've got Matthew
McConnA sat in the set of
>> I do
>> his movie and I'm thinking, "Fuck, God,
that's a long [laughter] way to go."
>> Well, the beautiful thing about a lot of
stuff on the internet is that uh it is
archived for the rest of time. So you
can go back and watch my first ever
episode, which is me in my old office
for the nightclub stuff that I did. And
my business partner yelled at me
afterward because I kicked everybody out
so that I could record. And he's like,
"You can't keep doing this. It's not
your studio. It's our office." And it's
a single iPhone and a Blue Yeti USB mic
that looks like a big white dildo. And
it's up and over the top of the desk.
And it's me and a friend from the gym
talking about how we might row the
Atlantic one day.
>> Embarrassing to start there for someone
that's watching you do Matthew McConnA
in a digital screen. It's embarrassing,
>> but also not because that was the first
step. But that wasn't the first step.
The first step was deciding what name it
was going to be and then driving to
Gates Head to buy the Yeti secondhand
from some dude on eBay and that Yeti
went on to do 500 episodes of my podcast
and then we changed to nicer microphones
or something. So everybody's journey
begins embarrassingly small. And I think
just having a little bit of compassion
for yourself, having the humility to go
the first step that I do is going to be
so small that it it almost wouldn't
register on the ledger of
accomplishments. It would be minute
going, okay, that's still a win. First
thing, you don't know what to do. Second
thing, you know what to do, but you
don't know how to do it. So you can sit
down in front of the spreadsheet and you
know that you've got to do a VLOOKUP on
this spreadsheet. We have no idea how to
do a VLOOKUP. What's VLOOKUP? It's some
like some Excel thing that Excel nerds
will know. Um Chat GPT, Google, ring a
boss, ring a friend that is an expert in
Excel. So for me, when I look at my
procrastination, it occurs due to
usually one of two things. Poorly
defined next physical action. I don't
know exactly what the next smallest step
is that moves me toward my goal. I do
know that and I sit down. I don't know
how to do it. Like how do I like if you
don't know how to open a file, you don't
know how to unzip a file. Doesn't matter
how many files you've got in front of
you. If you can't unzip them, you can't
see them. So, okay, I need to learn. Hey
dude, I got this zip file. Where do I go
to get it? Oh. Oh, okay. Thank you. And
then we've got moving. So, it's either a
uh action issue or a skill issue. And
both of those are usually pretty simply
fixed. I was reading your newsletter,
you talk about how some people
procrastinate because they're scared of
what they'll find out about themselves. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> If they try the thing, and I thought
that's so true.
>> Yeah. I mean, if you The upside of never
trying is never having to feel the pain
of failure,
>> right? If you never face that
discomfort, like if I tell myself that
all women are terrible, then I'm excused
of ever having to talk to a woman and as
a result I never have to feel the pain
of rejection. If I tell myself that
everything is [ __ ] or that things will never get better, I'm excused of ever
never get better, I'm excused of ever having to try anything. It's more
having to try anything. It's more comfortable to get fatalistic and call
comfortable to get fatalistic and call it pragmatism. like the cope is framing
it pragmatism. like the cope is framing hope as pathetic and embarrassing and
hope as pathetic and embarrassing and optimism as delusion. This is cynicism,
optimism as delusion. This is cynicism, right? Cynicism. And uh the opposite of
right? Cynicism. And uh the opposite of that is enthusiasm. Since moving to
that is enthusiasm. Since moving to America, I've been surrounded by very
America, I've been surrounded by very enthusiastic people. Americans kind of
enthusiastic people. Americans kind of have permanent firstline cocaine energy.
have permanent firstline cocaine energy. [laughter]
[laughter] [snorts]
[snorts] And uh I like enthusiasm. I wish I
And uh I like enthusiasm. I wish I could, you know, export some of it back
could, you know, export some of it back to the UK. You know what I was really
to the UK. You know what I was really disappointed by? I mean, you featured in
disappointed by? I mean, you featured in an article recently in a very well-known
an article recently in a very well-known British paper. Maybe this came across
British paper. Maybe this came across your desk or maybe not.
your desk or maybe not. >> No, [laughter] I have no idea.
>> No, [laughter] I have no idea. >> Okay. So, it was uh it was the same week
>> Okay. So, it was uh it was the same week that the Spotify rap came out. Yeah.
that the Spotify rap came out. Yeah. >> And in the top 10 in the world, there's
>> And in the top 10 in the world, there's me, you and J Shetty. There's three
me, you and J Shetty. There's three Brits. I think we're punching above our
Brits. I think we're punching above our weight.
weight. >> Yeah. %
>> Yeah. % >> with regards to this lady who wrote this
>> with regards to this lady who wrote this article basically said it was a
article basically said it was a rejection of our patriotic inheritance
rejection of our patriotic inheritance that we were trying to do
that we were trying to do self-improvement at scale like whatever
self-improvement at scale like whatever happened to the British stiff upper
happened to the British stiff upper lipness where we sort of feel stoically
lipness where we sort of feel stoically satisfied in our own loneliness and
satisfied in our own loneliness and misery that's like an almost an exact
misery that's like an almost an exact quote
quote >> really
>> really >> yeah it was really it really made me sad
>> yeah it was really it really made me sad and it made me sad for a few reasons
and it made me sad for a few reasons first stuff. The UK is not exactly
first stuff. The UK is not exactly showering itself in glory at the moment.
showering itself in glory at the moment. There is an entire content bucket of
There is an entire content bucket of American streamers reacting to news from
American streamers reacting to news from the UK and going, "Oh, the downfall of
the UK and going, "Oh, the downfall of the UK with the whatever." Whether
the UK with the whatever." Whether that's true or not, the optics aren't
that's true or not, the optics aren't great coming out of the UK at the
great coming out of the UK at the moment. And you've got three people who
moment. And you've got three people who have done it. I don't know whether Jay
have done it. I don't know whether Jay is from workingass, but I'm from as
is from workingass, but I'm from as workingass as workingass can be. I know
workingass as workingass can be. I know that you're like even lower than me
that you're like even lower than me somehow. Congratulations. and wherever
somehow. Congratulations. and wherever Jay's from, and you've managed to get
Jay's from, and you've managed to get these three guys who are genuinely
these three guys who are genuinely trying to make the world a better place,
trying to make the world a better place, really working hard at it, and your main
really working hard at it, and your main takeaway was not during a time where the
takeaway was not during a time where the UK is kind of eating [ __ ] on the global
UK is kind of eating [ __ ] on the global stage. Congratulations to three people
stage. Congratulations to three people who can show young entrepreneurs, people
who can show young entrepreneurs, people that want to do personal development,
that want to do personal development, improve their own lives, that maybe you
improve their own lives, that maybe you can do it, too. And maybe we all got
can do it, too. And maybe we all got lucky. I don't know. But it made me real
lucky. I don't know. But it made me real sad to read that. And this isn't just
sad to read that. And this isn't just that. I was like, it would have been
that. I was like, it would have been nice if the the UK like UK press had
nice if the the UK like UK press had backed us and said, "Good on you guys."
backed us and said, "Good on you guys." But on top of that, it just reminded me
But on top of that, it just reminded me of a a mindset in the UK that
of a a mindset in the UK that kind of has like Stockholm syndrome for
kind of has like Stockholm syndrome for their own sad moments, for their own
their own sad moments, for their own like zero sum like tall poppy thing. And
like zero sum like tall poppy thing. And I really don't like the tall poppy
I really don't like the tall poppy syndrome in the UK. And uh it made me
syndrome in the UK. And uh it made me sad to to to read that. If I had one
sad to to to read that. If I had one wish for people in the UK and if you're
wish for people in the UK and if you're listening now there's a high possibility
listening now there's a high possibility you're in the UK is
you're in the UK is lift people up and be positive like clap
lift people up and be positive like clap for strangers. If someone does something
for strangers. If someone does something if someone falls flat on their face in
if someone falls flat on their face in the pursuit of a big goal clap for them.
the pursuit of a big goal clap for them. Go that was amazing. At least you tried
Go that was amazing. At least you tried because their success paves the way for
because their success paves the way for us all to fail and fall flat on our
us all to fail and fall flat on our face. But right now there's a bit of an
face. But right now there's a bit of an inversion of that. I was in San
inversion of that. I was in San Francisco last week and I swear to you
Francisco last week and I swear to you one woman came up to me. She told me
one woman came up to me. She told me three times she had failed at her
three times she had failed at her startup. She's now back living with her
startup. She's now back living with her mom. And she wore it like a credential
mom. And she wore it like a credential in a badge of honor because in that room
in a badge of honor because in that room it is.
it is. >> But back home that's a hit piece. That's
>> But back home that's a hit piece. That's [laughter] a hit.
[laughter] a hit. >> Look at this stupid delusional woman who
>> Look at this stupid delusional woman who tried to do this thing. It's evidently
tried to do this thing. It's evidently not going to work. How embarrassing.
not going to work. How embarrassing. >> Oh yeah. She she's her employees have
>> Oh yeah. She she's her employees have been let go. She owes this money. All
been let go. She owes this money. All these things. It would be framed as a
these things. It would be framed as a negative. And actually when I read the
negative. And actually when I read the thing the the Spotify top 10 thing. Yes,
thing the the Spotify top 10 thing. Yes, we're all doing self-improvement stuff.
we're all doing self-improvement stuff. But for me, that's kind of beside the
But for me, that's kind of beside the point. We we built media businesses and
point. We we built media businesses and there's not a lot of in terms of
there's not a lot of in terms of competing with America and competing
competing with America and competing with the rest of the world. It's crazy
with the rest of the world. It's crazy that three British entrepreneurs managed
that three British entrepreneurs managed to contend with the United States, the
to contend with the United States, the home of media, more capital, more brand
home of media, more capital, more brand partners, more access to talent,
partners, more access to talent, everything is here it seems. And for for
everything is here it seems. And for for three Brits to do that, I was so proud.
three Brits to do that, I was so proud. I I actually don't need anyone to tell
I I actually don't need anyone to tell me like to be like I was so proud of
me like to be like I was so proud of you. I was so proud of Jay because that
you. I was so proud of Jay because that is um it's a real underdog thing and
is um it's a real underdog thing and many of us started a lot later than the
many of us started a lot later than the people that
people that >> you know the Indiana Jones movie where
>> you know the Indiana Jones movie where he's like running and the big door is
he's like running and the big door is coming down the big stone door and it's
coming down the big stone door and it's coming down real slow and he's running
coming down real slow and he's running running running. He slides underneath
running running. He slides underneath and he grabs his hat as he comes in. I
and he grabs his hat as he comes in. I kind of feel like that was us in the
kind of feel like that was us in the podcasting WORLD. WE JUST SNUCK IN
podcasting WORLD. WE JUST SNUCK IN before the sort of explosion and and you
before the sort of explosion and and you know we rode uh rode the the the
know we rode uh rode the the the increase in platform size. But yeah,
increase in platform size. But yeah, look dude,
look dude, having people around you that genuinely
having people around you that genuinely are prepared to watch you take big
are prepared to watch you take big swings is something I wish I could gift
swings is something I wish I could gift to the UK. Like the way that I would put
to the UK. Like the way that I would put it is
it is Americans want you to succeed in case
Americans want you to succeed in case you take them with you on the journey.
you take them with you on the journey. Mhm.
Mhm. >> And [clears throat]
>> And [clears throat] the worst parts of British culture don't
the worst parts of British culture don't want you to succeed in case you leave
want you to succeed in case you leave them behind.
them behind. >> And I I know that there are so many
>> And I I know that there are so many people that this is just a mimemetic
people that this is just a mimemetic issue that if you had one key mover
issue that if you had one key mover within a group that that would start to
within a group that that would start to spread and spread and spread. But to the
spread and spread and spread. But to the people in the UK that are doers and are
people in the UK that are doers and are builders and are actually making stuff
builders and are actually making stuff happen, like you have one of the hardest
happen, like you have one of the hardest jobs in the world, cuz not only have you
jobs in the world, cuz not only have you got to get over the lonely chapter, the
got to get over the lonely chapter, the challenge, the difficulty, the
challenge, the difficulty, the procrastination, the getting up early,
procrastination, the getting up early, I've got to stop drinking, caffeine 90
I've got to stop drinking, caffeine 90 minutes after waking, holy [ __ ] there's
minutes after waking, holy [ __ ] there's so much on my plate, you have this
so much on my plate, you have this additional gravity of a culture that
additional gravity of a culture that doesn't tend to celebrate success and
doesn't tend to celebrate success and risk-taking in quite the same way. So,
risk-taking in quite the same way. So, if that's you, I think like power to
if that's you, I think like power to you. I I really do. and there is a
you. I I really do. and there is a community of people out there even if it
community of people out there even if it feels lonely. Now,
feels lonely. Now, >> what do you think of the UK versus US
>> what do you think of the UK versus US conversations generally? Do you think
conversations generally? Do you think it's really as bad as you hear on X or
it's really as bad as you hear on X or on social media? Do you think the UK is
on social media? Do you think the UK is really as doomed?
really as doomed? >> I don't know, man. I mean, I hesitate. I
>> I don't know, man. I mean, I hesitate. I don't like to throw a ton of shade at
don't like to throw a ton of shade at the country that I left three, four
the country that I left three, four years ago now. Uh because it does feel a
years ago now. Uh because it does feel a bit like pulling the ladder up after I
bit like pulling the ladder up after I got you the last lifeboat off the
got you the last lifeboat off the Titanic and me going like sorry I
Titanic and me going like sorry I [snorts] had my problems while I was
[snorts] had my problems while I was there. I had I had my my criticisms of
there. I had I had my my criticisms of the UK while I was still in the UK. I
the UK while I was still in the UK. I wish that people were more positive
wish that people were more positive some. I wish that there was less tall
some. I wish that there was less tall poppy syndrome. I wish that risk was um
poppy syndrome. I wish that risk was um more celebrated. You know, we have the
more celebrated. You know, we have the same number of universities in the top
same number of universities in the top 10 in the world as America,
10 in the world as America, >> but we produce 80% fewer entrepreneurs.
>> but we produce 80% fewer entrepreneurs. >> And what is entrepreneurialism? It's
>> And what is entrepreneurialism? It's like vision. It's risk-taking. It's
like vision. It's risk-taking. It's being prepared to do something that
being prepared to do something that hasn't been done before. and uh that
hasn't been done before. and uh that maybe there's some something else I'm
maybe there's some something else I'm not seeing that's a part of the maybe
not seeing that's a part of the maybe it's the weather you know maybe it's the
it's the weather you know maybe it's the fact that we're a waterlocked island or
fact that we're a waterlocked island or that the population density is 10 times
that the population density is 10 times that of the US but there's something I
that of the US but there's something I feel like bottom up that's putting a bit
feel like bottom up that's putting a bit of a restriction on people and and and
of a restriction on people and and and yeah it was a shame it was a shame to
yeah it was a shame it was a shame to see that the UK press was
see that the UK press was just living out the exact cultural
just living out the exact cultural script that I assumed that they would
script that I assumed that they would Um, shame. Shame.
Um, shame. Shame. >> Do you know something I've noticed? Most
>> Do you know something I've noticed? Most commercial teams aren't tested by their
commercial teams aren't tested by their targets. They're tested by the weight of
targets. They're tested by the weight of the admin that comes with every client.
the admin that comes with every client. All the follow-ups, all the meetings,
All the follow-ups, all the meetings, all the notes, the timelines that never
all the notes, the timelines that never ever stop. These were a constant source
ever stop. These were a constant source of friction in my commercial team until
of friction in my commercial team until I introduced our sponsor, Pipe Drive. If
I introduced our sponsor, Pipe Drive. If you're not familiar, Pipe Drive is a
you're not familiar, Pipe Drive is a simple but powerful sales CRM that gives
simple but powerful sales CRM that gives you visibility on any deals through a
you visibility on any deals through a sales pipeline. It also automates a lot
sales pipeline. It also automates a lot of the tedious, repetitive, and
of the tedious, repetitive, and timeconsuming tasks that come with the
timeconsuming tasks that come with the sales process. I've used it across my
sales process. I've used it across my investments for almost a decade now,
investments for almost a decade now, even when I was at Social Chain. And
even when I was at Social Chain. And it's so effective in part because it's
it's so effective in part because it's customizable. We've been able to tailor
customizable. We've been able to tailor it for different teams depending on how
it for different teams depending on how they work. Pipe Drive also scales with
they work. Pipe Drive also scales with your business. And you can also link it
your business. And you can also link it to over 500 different apps. It is hands
to over 500 different apps. It is hands down my favorite CRM tool. Try it right
down my favorite CRM tool. Try it right now for free for 30 days. No credit card
now for free for 30 days. No credit card or payment required, just using my link
or payment required, just using my link below. Or you can go to piperive.com/ceo
below. Or you can go to piperive.com/ceo to get started. That's
to get started. That's pipederive.comceo.
Productivity. Have we closed off the book of uh things that really one of the
book of uh things that really one of the things I've read in your newsletter as
things I've read in your newsletter as well as relates to productivity is just
well as relates to productivity is just this idea that a lack of confidence
this idea that a lack of confidence kills more dreams than a lack of skill.
kills more dreams than a lack of skill. >> Mhm. [clears throat]
>> Mhm. [clears throat] >> And confidence I think is maybe one of
>> And confidence I think is maybe one of those big foundational things that sits
those big foundational things that sits at the very top of the stack of dominoes
at the very top of the stack of dominoes to be able to do anything which is like
to be able to do anything which is like do I actually believe I'll be able to?
do I actually believe I'll be able to? Mhm. Well, let me give you this. Uh,
Mhm. Well, let me give you this. Uh, I think a lot of people assume that
I think a lot of people assume that self-belief is kind of the answer to
self-belief is kind of the answer to what it is that they're looking to do.
what it is that they're looking to do. You can just do things.
You can just do things. You can just do it anyway.
You can just do it anyway. You can do it tired.
You can do it tired. You can do it with no self-belief.
You can do it with no self-belief. You can do it when you don't want to.
You can do it when you don't want to. You can do it when you think it's not
You can do it when you think it's not going to work. You can just do things.
going to work. You can just do things. And I've learned that you can have no
And I've learned that you can have no self-esteem and show up anyway.
self-esteem and show up anyway. You can have no self-belief and things
You can have no self-belief and things still go well. Ryan Holidayiday says,
still go well. Ryan Holidayiday says, "Self-belief is overrated. Generate
"Self-belief is overrated. Generate evidence."
[ __ ] yeah. I want evidence. Want an undeniable stack of proof that I
Want an undeniable stack of proof that I am who I say I am. And I I am I am the
am who I say I am. And I I am I am the poster boy for imposter syndrome, dude.
poster boy for imposter syndrome, dude. Like I I never assumed that I would
Like I I never assumed that I would amount to really anything,
amount to really anything, but I'm pretty stubborn. And being
but I'm pretty stubborn. And being stubborn has meant that I've just kept
stubborn has meant that I've just kept showing up. And uh that stubbornness
showing up. And uh that stubbornness feels even more in reach than
feels even more in reach than consistency. Consistency is pretty in
consistency. Consistency is pretty in reach, right? Don't miss two days in a
reach, right? Don't miss two days in a row. All right. Well, [ __ ] write
row. All right. Well, [ __ ] write write 500 words a week. Start a Substack
write 500 words a week. Start a Substack and write 500 words a week. You can
and write 500 words a week. You can probably do that. You can probably find
probably do that. You can probably find 500 words a week. It'll take you half an
500 words a week. It'll take you half an hour. Write 500 words a week. After a
hour. Write 500 words a week. After a year, you're a writer. Congratulations.
year, you're a writer. Congratulations. You're a writer. You have the license to
You're a writer. You have the license to be able to call yourself a writer. How
be able to call yourself a writer. How fantastic. And then who knows in four
fantastic. And then who knows in four years time you've got Penguin came
years time you've got Penguin came knocking. Maybe there's a book deal for
knocking. Maybe there's a book deal for you. How fantastic with that? I'm a
you. How fantastic with that? I'm a published author with Penguin. How
published author with Penguin. How fantastic is that?
fantastic is that? But it starts by just going
But it starts by just going I'm going to see what happens if I do
I'm going to see what happens if I do this little thing.
this little thing. >> So interesting as you said that I
>> So interesting as you said that I thought you know what when I started I
thought you know what when I started I had no evidence. Definitely didn't have
had no evidence. Definitely didn't have belief that I could do what I've done
belief that I could do what I've done over the last sort of 1015 years of my
over the last sort of 1015 years of my life. But I also had no choice because
life. But I also had no choice because of that internal void. [laughter] So
of that internal void. [laughter] So >> yeah,
>> yeah, >> I had no evidence but no choice.
>> I had no evidence but no choice. >> That's the that's the region beta thing
>> That's the that's the region beta thing that you mentioned earlier on. So um the
that you mentioned earlier on. So um the region beta paradox. Imagine that if you
region beta paradox. Imagine that if you were going to travel less than a mile,
were going to travel less than a mile, you'd walk it. If you're going to travel
you'd walk it. If you're going to travel a mile or more, you would drive it.
a mile or more, you would drive it. Paradoxically, you would travel 2 miles
Paradoxically, you would travel 2 miles quicker than you would travel one mile.
quicker than you would travel one mile. You jump in the car. And what this
You jump in the car. And what this suggests is that if we only act when
suggests is that if we only act when things cross a certain threshold of
things cross a certain threshold of badness,
badness, worse things can be better than better
worse things can be better than better things. So for instance, the person who
things. So for instance, the person who lives in an apartment and it's in a kind
lives in an apartment and it's in a kind of a sketchy area of town and there's a
of a sketchy area of town and there's a little bit of mold on the ceiling and
little bit of mold on the ceiling and the housemates's kind of a bit weird,
the housemates's kind of a bit weird, but it's really cheap and they quite
but it's really cheap and they quite like the bed and it's not too far from
like the bed and it's not too far from their work. Uh, someone's in a
their work. Uh, someone's in a relationship and their partner's not
relationship and their partner's not abusive or mean to them, but they're not
abusive or mean to them, but they're not really that fired up and don't really
really that fired up and don't really see that much of a future with them. Or
see that much of a future with them. Or the person who's got a job and their
the person who's got a job and their boss is a bit of a dick and it doesn't
boss is a bit of a dick and it doesn't pay that well, but it's really cushy and
pay that well, but it's really cushy and they don't actually have to work that
they don't actually have to work that hard. All of these people would be
hard. All of these people would be better off if their situations were
better off if their situations were worse because it would galvanize them to
worse because it would galvanize them to go and do something. And this zone of
go and do something. And this zone of comfortable complacency that people get
comfortable complacency that people get into is where they can sit for a very
into is where they can sit for a very long time. And this is a really
long time. And this is a really dangerous one. Things aren't bad enough
dangerous one. Things aren't bad enough to be bad, but they're nowhere near good
to be bad, but they're nowhere near good enough to be good. And this
enough to be good. And this sort of gray zone, this liinal space,
sort of gray zone, this liinal space, this sort of like productivity purgatory
this sort of like productivity purgatory that you sit in just sort of allows you
that you sit in just sort of allows you to keep moving forward. You're not
to keep moving forward. You're not moving toward what you want, but there's
moving toward what you want, but there's not enough discomfort to get you to do
not enough discomfort to get you to do it. One of the most uh spicy questions
it. One of the most uh spicy questions that's been asked at one of my live
that's been asked at one of my live talks about this was um should I
talks about this was um should I purposefully make my life worse so that
purposefully make my life worse so that it kicks me out the bottom of region
it kicks me out the bottom of region beta? I'm like it's a high-risisk
beta? I'm like it's a high-risisk strategy. I wouldn't I wouldn't
strategy. I wouldn't I wouldn't recommend it but it is a difficulty.
recommend it but it is a difficulty. >> As you were saying that I was thinking
>> As you were saying that I was thinking about how our relationship with that
about how our relationship with that uncertainty is going to define our lives
uncertainty is going to define our lives and that a lot of people are choosing
and that a lot of people are choosing certain misery over the uncertainty that
certain misery over the uncertainty that you'll encounter as you go and search
you'll encounter as you go and search for more. And I always almost almost
for more. And I always almost almost imagine it as being stood on the edge of
imagine it as being stood on the edge of a cliff and the part of the cliff I'm on
a cliff and the part of the cliff I'm on is illuminated. I know it. It's not
is illuminated. I know it. It's not great, but I know it.
great, but I know it. >> And then I look off into the the abyss
>> And then I look off into the the abyss and I've got to jump into this
and I've got to jump into this uncertainty. I don't know if there's
uncertainty. I don't know if there's land there. I don't know what what's in
land there. I don't know what what's in there. And I think people's relationship
there. And I think people's relationship with with uncertainty defines their
with with uncertainty defines their entire life. Like can you quit when it's
entire life. Like can you quit when it's meh?
meh? And I look back on my life and go, if
And I look back on my life and go, if there is one defining skill, maybe
there is one defining skill, maybe because of of this sort of internal
because of of this sort of internal void, it's been not overstaying my
void, it's been not overstaying my welcome by many days in a situation
welcome by many days in a situation >> that pushes back against your I say yes
>> that pushes back against your I say yes too much. It seems like you do have the
too much. It seems like you do have the capacity to be able to quit when
capacity to be able to quit when >> Oh, yeah. But it's it's I mean, so these
>> Oh, yeah. But it's it's I mean, so these are like big life decisions. And what
are like big life decisions. And what I'm talking about when I say I don't say
I'm talking about when I say I don't say no enough is like
no enough is like gradual clutter. Right.
gradual clutter. Right. >> Gradual clutter being uh you start
>> Gradual clutter being uh you start starting a newsletter when I have no
starting a newsletter when I have no time to write. Whereas when I'm thinking
time to write. Whereas when I'm thinking about this uncertainty, it's like went
about this uncertainty, it's like went to university, lasted a day, never went
to university, lasted a day, never went back.
back. >> Walked in, thought this is like school
>> Walked in, thought this is like school where where I failed, never went back.
where where I failed, never went back. Built a company, was going well, raising
Built a company, was going well, raising investment, very successful, quit out of
investment, very successful, quit out of the blue, started this other company
the blue, started this other company called Social Chain. Did that up until
called Social Chain. Did that up until the age of 27. 10 days before we're
the age of 27. 10 days before we're about to go on this IPO road show for
about to go on this IPO road show for the company to up this to a new stock
the company to up this to a new stock market reached this point where I'm like
market reached this point where I'm like even though my entire identity is this
even though my entire identity is this social chain guy and even though we're
social chain guy and even though we're about to raise this money and the
about to raise this money and the company would eventually rally up to
company would eventually rally up to what being worth 4 500 million on the
what being worth 4 500 million on the Frankfurt stock exchange
Frankfurt stock exchange I'm going to jump off into nothingness
I'm going to jump off into nothingness I'm going to leave it all with no plan B
I'm going to leave it all with no plan B and that's when I reflect on my life and
and that's when I reflect on my life and go oh like in the big moments I've not
go oh like in the big moments I've not required I've not needed certainty what
required I've not needed certainty what I've needed is uh realization that this
I've needed is uh realization that this certain misery is not what I want.
certain misery is not what I want. >> That's brave. Do you know what I'm
>> That's brave. Do you know what I'm saying? Like I I look at people's
saying? Like I I look at people's decisioning and their life story through
decisioning and their life story through this lens, which is like how much
this lens, which is like how much conviction do you need that you're in
conviction do you need that you're in the wrong place? Obama said on stage
the wrong place? Obama said on stage when I spoke at this event um that he
when I spoke at this event um that he spoke at many years ago that on his big
spoke at many years ago that on his big decisions in life, he gets to 51%
decisions in life, he gets to 51% certainty and then makes the decision
certainty and then makes the decision with the peace of mind that he made the
with the peace of mind that he made the decision with the best available
decision with the best available evidence. He talked about getting Osama
evidence. He talked about getting Osama bin Laden in that compound in Pakistan.
bin Laden in that compound in Pakistan. He had never seen that he was there, but
He had never seen that he was there, but he he risked two Apache helicopters of
he he risked two Apache helicopters of lives and
lives and >> like what percentage of certainty do you
>> like what percentage of certainty do you need to make a big decision I think is a
need to make a big decision I think is a determinant [clears throat] for the
determinant [clears throat] for the long-term success you'll have in your
long-term success you'll have in your life. Some people need to get to like
life. Some people need to get to like 95%. And you never get there in most
95%. And you never get there in most things.
things. >> Yeah. It's the difference in uh
>> Yeah. It's the difference in uh behavioral economics between maximizing
behavioral economics between maximizing and satisficing. It's like the two the
and satisficing. It's like the two the two terms like basically what's your
two terms like basically what's your threshold for conviction? Yeah.
threshold for conviction? Yeah. >> You know the paradox of choice by Barry
>> You know the paradox of choice by Barry Schwarz. Do you know this? Okay. So
Schwarz. Do you know this? Okay. So Barry Schwarz uses this wonderful
Barry Schwarz uses this wonderful example of people buying jeans 50 years
example of people buying jeans 50 years ago going into the jeans store. You go
ago going into the jeans store. You go in and there is one type of jeans.
in and there is one type of jeans. There's maybe different sizes maybe. And
There's maybe different sizes maybe. And you go in, you buy the pair of jeans,
you go in, you buy the pair of jeans, you leave. Maybe they're not the perfect
you leave. Maybe they're not the perfect jeans that you wanted, but you had no
jeans that you wanted, but you had no other choice, right? So you got them. So
other choice, right? So you got them. So you're okay with your decision. Would
you're okay with your decision. Would have been happier if there was others,
have been happier if there was others, but there wasn't. So, your decision
but there wasn't. So, your decision regret is basically zero. Roll the clock
regret is basically zero. Roll the clock forward. It's 2025. You go into the
forward. It's 2025. You go into the jeans store. Do you want skinny or
jeans store. Do you want skinny or stretch? Do you want boot cut? Do you
stretch? Do you want boot cut? Do you want ripped? Do you want bleach? Do you
want ripped? Do you want bleach? Do you want gray, blue, black? If you walk out
want gray, blue, black? If you walk out of the jean store with a suboptimal pair
of the jean store with a suboptimal pair of jeans. This is no longer because of
of jeans. This is no longer because of restriction from the environment. This
restriction from the environment. This is because of your inability to make the
is because of your inability to make the right choice.
right choice. >> And this causes people to fear making
>> And this causes people to fear making choices. They project the potential
choices. They project the potential regret they're fearful of in the future
regret they're fearful of in the future down into the present and it causes
down into the present and it causes decision paralysis. So they don't do
decision paralysis. So they don't do anything. They think there's so many
anything. They think there's so many different options here. And this is one
different options here. And this is one of the paradoxes where you think, well,
of the paradoxes where you think, well, lots of choice allows you to maximize
lots of choice allows you to maximize what you want. You get the perfect pair
what you want. You get the perfect pair of jeans. So why is it that firstly
of jeans. So why is it that firstly people tend to be less satisfied with
people tend to be less satisfied with their decisions when they're given more
their decisions when they're given more options and secondly why so many people
options and secondly why so many people struggle to make decisions in the first
struggle to make decisions in the first place? all because they're paralyzed by
place? all because they're paralyzed by the overanalysis they have of all of the
the overanalysis they have of all of the different optionality that's in front of
different optionality that's in front of them.
them. >> Overanalysis paralysis.
Jeff Bezos's Amazon thing about type one, type two doors is really useful
one, type two doors is really useful here because when kids come up to me at
here because when kids come up to me at the tours and stuff that I've done,
the tours and stuff that I've done, >> most of the time the question they're
>> most of the time the question they're asking me can be answered with with a
asking me can be answered with with a rebuttal, which is, "If you're wrong,
rebuttal, which is, "If you're wrong, could you go back?"
could you go back?" >> Like, "If you're wrong about quitting
>> Like, "If you're wrong about quitting that job at City Bank, would City Bank
that job at City Bank, would City Bank have you back?" or Santandere,
have you back?" or Santandere, >> whoever, but you've been there for three
>> whoever, but you've been there for three or four years. You're like a high
or four years. You're like a high performer. You're killing it. You could
performer. You're killing it. You could do it with your eyes closed. Of course,
do it with your eyes closed. Of course, they're going to have you back. In fact,
they're going to have you back. In fact, you probably get a pay rise if you go to
you probably get a pay rise if you go to their competitor. So, in such a
their competitor. So, in such a scenario, go be the violinist in Peru
scenario, go be the violinist in Peru and do the cupcake thing.
and do the cupcake thing. >> Like the start the cupcake store because
>> Like the start the cupcake store because if you're wrong,
if you're wrong, >> you can always go back. And that
>> you can always go back. And that honestly, when I say that to kids, it's
honestly, when I say that to kids, it's almost like the most common rebuttal I
almost like the most common rebuttal I give them, which is like, if you're
give them, which is like, if you're wrong about this dream you have, would
wrong about this dream you have, would you be welcomed back to your current
you be welcomed back to your current life?
life? >> Well, think about this. If you're
>> Well, think about this. If you're succeeding at a job that you hate,
succeeding at a job that you hate, imagine how great you'd be at one that
imagine how great you'd be at one that you loved.
you loved. >> If [clears throat] you're not fired up
>> If [clears throat] you're not fired up about the thing that you're doing today
about the thing that you're doing today and you're still winning,
and you're still winning, what could happen if you actually
what could happen if you actually enjoyed you were fired up when you woke
enjoyed you were fired up when you woke up in the morning? Imagine that.
up in the morning? Imagine that. >> Some people have never experienced to
>> Some people have never experienced to know that it's possible.
know that it's possible. >> It's tough, man. And lots of people have
>> It's tough, man. And lots of people have got real world restrictions, which
got real world restrictions, which [ __ ] blows. But there's always
[ __ ] blows. But there's always something that you can do that's little.
something that you can do that's little. Another question people can ask
Another question people can ask themselves when reflecting on last year.
themselves when reflecting on last year. What are some of the thoughts that you
What are some of the thoughts that you repeated too many times this year? What
repeated too many times this year? What are the things that came up over and
are the things that came up over and over? That little voice in the back of
over? That little voice in the back of your head, that conversation that you
your head, that conversation that you need to have?
>> What are the thoughts you repeated too many times this year to the point that
many times this year to the point that it caused harm or distraction? It it
it caused harm or distraction? It it plagued you. There's this thing that's
plagued you. There's this thing that's there. [ __ ] Like that thing that my
there. [ __ ] Like that thing that my partner said to me 18 months ago over
partner said to me 18 months ago over dinner is still in the back of my mind
dinner is still in the back of my mind and I'm I'm ashamed of bringing it up to
and I'm I'm ashamed of bringing it up to them. I'm even more ashamed to bring it
them. I'm even more ashamed to bring it up to them now because they're probably
up to them now because they're probably not even going to remember it. But they
not even going to remember it. But they said they said this thing or they looked
said they said this thing or they looked at the waiter that way or or my boss
at the waiter that way or or my boss mentioned something in an email that
mentioned something in an email that made me feel like they they really don't
made me feel like they they really don't value me and I really and it's just over
value me and I really and it's just over and over or [ __ ] I need to I need to
and over or [ __ ] I need to I need to sort my diet out. I need to sort my diet
sort my diet out. I need to sort my diet out. I should sort my diet. I can't sort
out. I should sort my diet. I can't sort my diet out. I'm going to sort my diet
my diet out. I'm going to sort my diet out. I should sort I can't over and over
out. I should sort I can't over and over and over again. What are the thoughts
and over again. What are the thoughts that plagued you this year? What are the
that plagued you this year? What are the ones that kept on happening over and
ones that kept on happening over and over and over and over again? And
over and over and over again? And typically from that there is a
typically from that there is a conversation that you need to have
conversation that you need to have or there is an emotion that you're
or there is an emotion that you're unprepared to feel. So another great
unprepared to feel. So another great question, what are the emotions that
question, what are the emotions that you're unprepared to feel? If fear comes
you're unprepared to feel? If fear comes up, do you run away from it? You
up, do you run away from it? You distract yourself away from it. You
distract yourself away from it. You drink yourself away from it. You lift
drink yourself away from it. You lift yourself away from it. What are the
yourself away from it. What are the emotions you're unprepared to feel?
emotions you're unprepared to feel? >> And you're safe to feel these emotions.
>> And you're safe to feel these emotions. You can just sit there. It
You can just sit there. It >> It's interesting because as you said
>> It's interesting because as you said that, I thought about how the framing of
that, I thought about how the framing of 85-year-old me was actually such a
85-year-old me was actually such a wonderful way to understand this because
wonderful way to understand this because I know the question we asked earlier was
I know the question we asked earlier was what would 85-year-old you like really
what would 85-year-old you like really be annoyed that you did today. But the
be annoyed that you did today. But the inverse of that is like 85year-old
inverse of that is like 85year-old Steven is just going to wish I took care
Steven is just going to wish I took care of my body more.
of my body more. >> It's like just it's not going to care
>> It's like just it's not going to care about the money. It's going to go, "You
about the money. It's going to go, "You [snorts] can't walk up a [ __ ] hill,
[snorts] can't walk up a [ __ ] hill, my guy. your you your glutes have blown
my guy. your you your glutes have blown out and you don't have flexibility and
out and you don't have flexibility and you're hunched over and you you lose uh
you're hunched over and you you lose uh respiratory
respiratory um you can't walk upstairs without being
um you can't walk upstairs without being out of breath.
out of breath. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> And it's so interesting that if like
>> And it's so interesting that if like 85year-old me is going to be so pissed
85year-old me is going to be so pissed off that I didn't take care of my body
off that I didn't take care of my body more.
more. >> It's even as someone that seems to take
>> It's even as someone that seems to take care of their body quite a bit.
care of their body quite a bit. >> But still, yeah, you're making trades. I
>> But still, yeah, you're making trades. I I'd love, you know, what would I do to
I'd love, you know, what would I do to make 85-year-old me miserable and what
make 85-year-old me miserable and what would 85-year-old me want me to do more
would 85-year-old me want me to do more of?
of? >> They're great great frames. Let me give
>> They're great great frames. Let me give you a couple on uh problems and stress.
you a couple on uh problems and stress. So, one of the issues that people come
So, one of the issues that people come up against is you've got the start of
up against is you've got the start of the year, this wideeyed blue sky vision
the year, this wideeyed blue sky vision for what's going to happen. And even
for what's going to happen. And even though you know that stuff's going to
though you know that stuff's going to come and sort of get in the way, it
come and sort of get in the way, it always feels unfair when it does.
always feels unfair when it does. shouldn't be this way. We sort of rail
shouldn't be this way. We sort of rail against the the road bumps that we have
against the the road bumps that we have along the way. So, uh, six lessons about
along the way. So, uh, six lessons about problems and stress. Number one,
problems and stress. Number one, problems are a feature of life, not a
problems are a feature of life, not a bug. There will never come a time when
bug. There will never come a time when you have no problems. What did you you
you have no problems. What did you you think you were going to wake up one day
think you were going to wake up one day and there be no more problems? Like
and there be no more problems? Like completing a video game level and going
completing a video game level and going to a map where there's nothing there,
to a map where there's nothing there, right? things
right? things are always going to incur problems. Your
are always going to incur problems. Your problems will change, but having
problems will change, but having problems is going nowhere. Uh number
problems is going nowhere. Uh number two, whatever negativity is consuming
two, whatever negativity is consuming your thoughts probably won't matter in 3
your thoughts probably won't matter in 3 months time. Like in 3 months, you won't
months time. Like in 3 months, you won't remember the corrosive texture of your
remember the corrosive texture of your own mind or the boring repetitive things
own mind or the boring repetitive things that you thought or or maybe even what
that you thought or or maybe even what you worried about. I think what were you
you worried about. I think what were you worrying about 3 months ago right now?
worrying about 3 months ago right now? Probably can't remember. don't remember,
Probably can't remember. don't remember, >> but all of the time that you spent
>> but all of the time that you spent worrying will have passed. So, you're
worrying will have passed. So, you're sacrificing your joy and your presence
sacrificing your joy and your presence in the moment for a problem that you
in the moment for a problem that you won't even be able to recall in the
won't even be able to recall in the future. So, immortality would kind of be
future. So, immortality would kind of be the only life where so much flippency
the only life where so much flippency with the the time that we have would be
with the the time that we have would be acceptable. Learning comes from the
acceptable. Learning comes from the edges. Number three, change is
edges. Number three, change is uncomfortable and it rarely occurs
uncomfortable and it rarely occurs without a lot of stress. Learning comes
without a lot of stress. Learning comes from the edges.
from the edges. >> From the edges.
>> From the edges. >> Pro approximate zone of development.
>> Pro approximate zone of development. >> What does that mean?
>> What does that mean? >> You pushing yourself just beyond what
>> You pushing yourself just beyond what you're comfortable with. And sometimes
you're comfortable with. And sometimes this can be emotional pain too. Leaving
this can be emotional pain too. Leaving the job happens when you get pushed out
the job happens when you get pushed out of region beta on the bottom end or
of region beta on the bottom end or growth happens when you overextend
growth happens when you overextend yourself the right amount. Not so much
yourself the right amount. Not so much that you get injured, but so much that
that you get injured, but so much that you're challenged. That this is a new
you're challenged. That this is a new zone for you to get into. I'm clawing
zone for you to get into. I'm clawing up. Wow. And it expands your potential,
up. Wow. And it expands your potential, your idea of what you're able to do. And
your idea of what you're able to do. And it's like it pushes you so that your
it's like it pushes you so that your system becomes more resilient on the
system becomes more resilient on the other side.
other side. Many of the periods of radical important
Many of the periods of radical important change that you have had in your life
change that you have had in your life have only occurred because of severe
have only occurred because of severe challenges you faced. Like look back
challenges you faced. Like look back almost all of the big periods of growth
almost all of the big periods of growth in your life have germinated from your
in your life have germinated from your lowest points.
lowest points. In retrospect would you have avoided
In retrospect would you have avoided them if you could? Probably not.
them if you could? Probably not. So yeah, this challenge is a gift. You
So yeah, this challenge is a gift. You can uh lean into discomfort as if you
can uh lean into discomfort as if you invited it through the door. It's like,
invited it through the door. It's like, oh, there we are. Hello.
oh, there we are. Hello. It's good to see you.
It's good to see you. >> What thoughts did you repeat too many
>> What thoughts did you repeat too many times this year?
times this year? >> You're working too much.
>> You're working too much. >> Okay, so this is a recurring theme here.
>> Okay, so this is a recurring theme here. >> Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Again, the big
>> Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Again, the big questions, the big problems are the big
questions, the big problems are the big problems.
problems. >> And you want to orientate your life
>> And you want to orientate your life towards just having bigger gaps of
towards just having bigger gaps of emptiness. Uh, but probably filling it
emptiness. Uh, but probably filling it with other stuff. Family, same as you. I
with other stuff. Family, same as you. I can't wait to be a dad or dog. I should
can't wait to be a dad or dog. I should have a dog. I should have a dog. How
have a dog. I should have a dog. How many times have I thought the thought I
many times have I thought the thought I should have a dog? Get a golden
should have a dog? Get a golden retriever.
retriever. >> I saw a tweet which has kind of haunted
>> I saw a tweet which has kind of haunted me for 12 months. The tweet said, "Why
me for 12 months. The tweet said, "Why do all the big male podcasters not have
do all the big male podcasters not have kids?"
kids?" >> All the big male podcasters not have
>> All the big male podcasters not have kids. They all talk about the population
kids. They all talk about the population crisis and this that and the other. And
crisis and this that and the other. And then it was like Chris Williamson,
then it was like Chris Williamson, Huberman, Lex, Steven. None of them.
Huberman, Lex, Steven. None of them. >> Jay got kids.
>> Jay got kids. >> Jay Shetty.
>> Jay Shetty. >> Yeah. No. Okay. Yeah. But then also
>> Yeah. No. Okay. Yeah. But then also Tucker Carlson's breeding a lot. Uh he's
Tucker Carlson's breeding a lot. Uh he's he was number 10. Rogan's got like three
he was number 10. Rogan's got like three daughters, I think. Three or four
daughters, I think. Three or four daughters. So
daughters. So >> Rogan's the only one that But think
>> Rogan's the only one that But think about it as well. There's a generational
about it as well. There's a generational difference here. Like Tucker and Rogan
difference here. Like Tucker and Rogan are of the same generation. And this
are of the same generation. And this younger generation of like
younger generation of like >> It's very flattering for Andrew Huberman
>> It's very flattering for Andrew Huberman in his 50s, but
in his 50s, but >> Oh, yeah. [ __ ] [laughter] Yeah. But why
>> Oh, yeah. [ __ ] [laughter] Yeah. But why why is that? Why don't we have kids?
why is that? Why don't we have kids? I I mean it's a it's a great question.
I I mean it's a it's a great question. Um for me, I spent a lot of time in my
Um for me, I spent a lot of time in my 20ies really trying to work out who I
20ies really trying to work out who I was. I had my head up my own ass. Like
was. I had my head up my own ass. Like I'm happy to say that I had a uh slow
I'm happy to say that I had a uh slow development psychologically in terms of
development psychologically in terms of becoming the person I wanted to in terms
becoming the person I wanted to in terms of realizing how important different
of realizing how important different things were to me. Like how long have
things were to me. Like how long have you known
you known felt it I should have kids?
felt it I should have kids? I've always wanted kids, but I've not
I've always wanted kids, but I've not put steps in place to make that happen.
put steps in place to make that happen. Um, up until the last two years. And you
Um, up until the last two years. And you know what's crazy? I'm completely
know what's crazy? I'm completely unprepared. I am my life as it is now is
unprepared. I am my life as it is now is not ready for kids.
not ready for kids. >> I fly too much. I'm too busy. I have too
>> I fly too much. I'm too busy. I have too many prior other priorities
many prior other priorities >> in order to pick something up.
>> in order to pick something up. >> Yeah. But something down.
>> Yeah. But something down. >> But I have this sort of meta view which
>> But I have this sort of meta view which is the big step up in meaning in my life
is the big step up in meaning in my life will probably come from that. So even
will probably come from that. So even though there's no emotion in my body
though there's no emotion in my body that's telling me that this is a good
that's telling me that this is a good idea,
idea, >> close my eyes and do it and I will
>> close my eyes and do it and I will adjust.
adjust. >> I will adjust to the responsibility as I
>> I will adjust to the responsibility as I always have. There was no room in my
always have. There was no room in my life for a podcast when I started this
life for a podcast when I started this podcast,
podcast, >> right?
>> right? >> But I adjusted. And so it goes against
>> But I adjusted. And so it goes against every inclination that I have to have
every inclination that I have to have children right now as a as a as a man
children right now as a as a as a man that has freedom, who is 33 years old,
that has freedom, who is 33 years old, who can go wherever he wants, whenever
who can go wherever he wants, whenever he wants, and doesn't really have to
he wants, and doesn't really have to answer to any major responsibilities
answer to any major responsibilities outside of my
outside of my >> Do you like that? Do you like the fact
>> Do you like that? Do you like the fact that you don't have dependence in that
that you don't have dependence in that way?
way? >> If you ask this brain,
>> If you ask this brain, >> yes, I like freedom. I like the fact
>> yes, I like freedom. I like the fact that I after this conversation I can
that I after this conversation I can work on my business, go to the gym, go
work on my business, go to the gym, go wherever I want, fly somewhere, go to
wherever I want, fly somewhere, go to Hawaii. I like the freedom. However,
Hawaii. I like the freedom. However, there's this like meta brain
there's this like meta brain >> that is my regret brain and it lives 50
>> that is my regret brain and it lives 50 years from now and it's been inspired by
years from now and it's been inspired by all the conversations I've had on the
all the conversations I've had on the podcast and it says to me that actually
podcast and it says to me that actually the most meaningful thing you can do is
the most meaningful thing you can do is increase the amount of dependence and
increase the amount of dependence and responsibility that you have.
responsibility that you have. >> This is an unteachable lesson, dude.
>> This is an unteachable lesson, dude. that uh you should probably have kids
that uh you should probably have kids now, right? That could be a could be a
now, right? That could be a could be a lesson perhaps.
lesson perhaps. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> That you will never feel ready. That
>> That you will never feel ready. That could be an unteable lesson.
could be an unteable lesson. >> We have this population decline
>> We have this population decline situation going on.
situation going on. >> Mhm. [snorts]
>> Mhm. [snorts] >> And
>> And is it it's is it not a function of or a
is it it's is it not a function of or a consequence of the fact that we have
consequence of the fact that we have more freedom, more control, we're like
more freedom, more control, we're like more nihilistic. We we
more nihilistic. We we >> it's more like me me. M
>> it's more like me me. M >> now there's like a subtle narcissism
>> now there's like a subtle narcissism which is bred in society and look I I
which is bred in society and look I I ain't got kids but just so you know lads
ain't got kids but just so you know lads [laughter]
[laughter] that are watching I'm doing everything
that are watching I'm doing everything in my power some things that I can't
in my power some things that I can't actually tell you about but I'm doing
actually tell you about but I'm doing everything in my power to to have kids
everything in my power to to have kids as soon as possible.
as soon as possible. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> So I I imagine that I'll be a father
>> So I I imagine that I'll be a father >> that just sounds like shagging all the
>> that just sounds like shagging all the time.
time. >> Well, [laughter] yeah.
>> Well, [laughter] yeah. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> But I think I'll be a dad within the
>> But I think I'll be a dad within the next 12 months.
next 12 months. >> Amazing.
>> Amazing. >> And I I and I I have to say this again
>> And I I and I I have to say this again because it's so important. Like there's
because it's so important. Like there's no part of me in this moment of time
no part of me in this moment of time that's like, "Oh, I really really want
that's like, "Oh, I really really want to be a dad." I can see the cost, but
to be a dad." I can see the cost, but the benefit is unknown. I have to take
the benefit is unknown. I have to take other people's words for it.
other people's words for it. >> It's crazy, dude. It's it's a a painful
>> It's crazy, dude. It's it's a a painful realization. And um I've had some of the
realization. And um I've had some of the best demographers in the world on uh
best demographers in the world on uh Lyman Stone uh from the Institute for
Lyman Stone uh from the Institute for Family Studies, Steven J. Shaw who did
Family Studies, Steven J. Shaw who did the birth gap documentary. Uh these
the birth gap documentary. Uh these people know what's going on and it's a
people know what's going on and it's a it's a function of a lot of things. It's
it's a function of a lot of things. It's a a function of people having other
a a function of people having other stuff to do. There are so many other
stuff to do. There are so many other things to do than have kids. Uh reliable
things to do than have kids. Uh reliable contraception. That means that you can
contraception. That means that you can choose to put it off. You can continue
choose to put it off. You can continue to push it off for as long as you want.
to push it off for as long as you want. Specifically, uh women's socioeconomic
Specifically, uh women's socioeconomic emancipation into the workforce and in
emancipation into the workforce and in higher education. That means that at 18,
higher education. That means that at 18, the first thing you do isn't get
the first thing you do isn't get married. Oh, I'm going to go to
married. Oh, I'm going to go to university. Well, I've just put three or
university. Well, I've just put three or four years into university. I'm going to
four years into university. I'm going to now go and get a job and now I've
now go and get a job and now I've committed to the job. I'm going to maybe
committed to the job. I'm going to maybe climb the corporate ladder. That's
climb the corporate ladder. That's pushed the vitality curve back. It's
pushed the vitality curve back. It's made it later rather than being earlier.
made it later rather than being earlier. And another problem is because there is
And another problem is because there is such a multiplicity of different life
such a multiplicity of different life directions that people can go down. The
directions that people can go down. The likelihood of you being ready at 22 and
likelihood of you being ready at 22 and you meeting someone else who's also
you meeting someone else who's also ready at 22 is actually quite low. So if
ready at 22 is actually quite low. So if you think that you could have a graph
you think that you could have a graph like this uh vitality curve it's called
like this uh vitality curve it's called by Steven Shaw and previously it would
by Steven Shaw and previously it would have been very short and and sharp and
have been very short and and sharp and spiky and that would be like when people
spiky and that would be like when people want to have kids it's like you know
want to have kids it's like you know from 18 to 24 let's say if you meet
from 18 to 24 let's say if you meet anybody within that age range it's
anybody within that age range it's likely that they're at the same life
likely that they're at the same life situation as you as you flatten that
situation as you as you flatten that curve make it longer and you also push
curve make it longer and you also push it a little bit later you're now 35 to
it a little bit later you're now 35 to meet somebody that's also 35 and ready
meet somebody that's also 35 and ready to have kids but you meet some that not
to have kids but you meet some that not because there's too much area under the
because there's too much area under the curve that's flat as opposed to
curve that's flat as opposed to everybody kind of dancing to the same
everybody kind of dancing to the same tune. They're all dancing to different
tune. They're all dancing to different tunes.
tunes. >> Uh so that contributes to it. I
>> Uh so that contributes to it. I certainly think that there is a anti-f
certainly think that there is a anti-f family message that comes about that
family message that comes about that there's a girl with the list on Tik Tok
there's a girl with the list on Tik Tok which I think is this girl who wrote 350
which I think is this girl who wrote 350 reasons to not have kids. It's like
reasons to not have kids. It's like eight pages, nine pages long and it went
eight pages, nine pages long and it went super viral and it's everything from
super viral and it's everything from literally a parasite growing inside of
literally a parasite growing inside of your body to can't wear cute heels with
your body to can't wear cute heels with the girls, will have to miss brunch, all
the girls, will have to miss brunch, all of the different issues that can occur
of the different issues that can occur during childirth and then I think there
during childirth and then I think there was a a list of things for kids and it
was a a list of things for kids and it was like maybe a page a half a page long
was like maybe a page a half a page long that she'd written and um we she is open
that she'd written and um we she is open to seeing the world as she wishes. I
to seeing the world as she wishes. I think by the sounds of things, it is a
think by the sounds of things, it is a really good idea that she's not a
really good idea that she's not a mother. And I'm glad that she's choosing
mother. And I'm glad that she's choosing to not have kids. But that tone, that
to not have kids. But that tone, that sentiment is like prevalent because
sentiment is like prevalent because people see this is what I have to
people see this is what I have to sacrifice now.
sacrifice now. Pain, discomfort, lack of freedom
Pain, discomfort, lack of freedom for something that I have no idea about
for something that I have no idea about whether or not it's going to make me
whether or not it's going to make me satisfied in future. And yeah, maybe
satisfied in future. And yeah, maybe people say it's the most important thing
people say it's the most important thing or whatever, but it's easy to excuse
or whatever, but it's easy to excuse away when there are so many other things
away when there are so many other things I can do with my life. I can travel
I can do with my life. I can travel around Bali and I can watch Netflix and
around Bali and I can watch Netflix and I could build a business and I could
I could build a business and I could start a substack or I could build a
start a substack or I could build a YouTube channel and do a podcast. All of
YouTube channel and do a podcast. All of these things you could do. Pushing off,
these things you could do. Pushing off, pushing off, pushing off. It's no
pushing off, pushing off. It's no surprise. And the final point is I think
surprise. And the final point is I think um having kids is mimemetic. So
um having kids is mimemetic. So >> what does that mean?
>> what does that mean? >> Uh you model the behavior of the people
>> Uh you model the behavior of the people that are around you and the people that
that are around you and the people that you see. So good example of this Uh,
you see. So good example of this Uh, South Korea's got one of the worst birth
South Korea's got one of the worst birth rates in the world. It's uh for every
rates in the world. It's uh for every hundred South Koreans, there will be
hundred South Koreans, there will be four great grandchildren. A 96%
four great grandchildren. A 96% reduction over the next century. It's
reduction over the next century. It's insane. There are entire classrooms,
insane. There are entire classrooms, whole schools in South Korea that are
whole schools in South Korea that are unoccupied now. And um there are many
unoccupied now. And um there are many many reasons. the 4Bs movement, uh the
many reasons. the 4Bs movement, uh the the um increasing of women's acceptance
the um increasing of women's acceptance into education, and then when they got
into education, and then when they got into the workforce, they were still
into the workforce, they were still being prejudiced against, which meant
being prejudiced against, which meant that they swore off a lot of the things
that they swore off a lot of the things that they were promised. Like lots and
that they were promised. Like lots and lots and lots of different reasons, but
lots and lots of different reasons, but one of the big ones culturally, which is
one of the big ones culturally, which is really fascinating, is K-pop. K-pop was
really fascinating, is K-pop. K-pop was this export that Korea was going to put
this export that Korea was going to put to the world. We have this ability to
to the world. We have this ability to construct like the perfect boy band or
construct like the perfect boy band or girl band. we're going to export it to
girl band. we're going to export it to the world and this is going to be a
the world and this is going to be a representation for us. One of the things
representation for us. One of the things that K-pop stars have to say is that
that K-pop stars have to say is that they will be celibate while they're in
they will be celibate while they're in the band. So, not only does this mean
the band. So, not only does this mean that they can't be in a relationship, so
that they can't be in a relationship, so the most popular cultural influences in
the most popular cultural influences in South Korea aren't showing a pro-
South Korea aren't showing a pro- relationship narrative.
relationship narrative. >> They also [clears throat] obviously
>> They also [clears throat] obviously can't be mothers or fathers because they
can't be mothers or fathers because they can't be in a relationship. the converse
can't be in a relationship. the converse of this cultural intervention in the
of this cultural intervention in the country of Georgia, very religious and
country of Georgia, very religious and there's this superstar pastor guy, very
there's this superstar pastor guy, very religious country, this this this pastor
religious country, this this this pastor that's kind of like a really rock star
that's kind of like a really rock star sort of dude.
sort of dude. He said, "I will personally baptize the
He said, "I will personally baptize the third child of any family in the
third child of any family in the country." So now these parents are
country." So now these parents are speedrunning having kids so that their
speedrunning having kids so that their child can be baptized by the equivalent
child can be baptized by the equivalent like you know the goat. He's like the
like you know the goat. He's like the the the the like [ __ ] Avichi of uh of
the the the like [ __ ] Avichi of uh of of of pastas.
K-pop did the exact opposite. They had a cultural intervention which showed a
cultural intervention which showed a nonp pro- family influence whereas
nonp pro- family influence whereas Georgia had this one that was a pro-
Georgia had this one that was a pro- family influence. So, a cultural
family influence. So, a cultural intervention that South Korea could
intervention that South Korea could easily implement would be to say the
easily implement would be to say the only way that you can become a K-pop
only way that you can become a K-pop star is to already have had a kid. Like,
star is to already have had a kid. Like, we're only going to create boy bands and
we're only going to create boy bands and girl bands out of people who have
girl bands out of people who have already had families.
already had families. >> This kind of brings the conversation to
>> This kind of brings the conversation to me and you because there's a lot of men
me and you because there's a lot of men that listen to your show. There's a lot
that listen to your show. There's a lot of men that listen to my show. And I do
of men that listen to my show. And I do think in many respects we're modeling to
think in many respects we're modeling to some respects to some people what it is
some respects to some people what it is to be a good man.
to be a good man. by what we choose to do. You know, you
by what we choose to do. You know, you have a lot of influence. I've watched
have a lot of influence. I've watched the videos of people coming to you after
the videos of people coming to you after after your tours and they say to you
after your tours and they say to you that you're their friend. They're like
that you're their friend. They're like they thank you for the fact that you
they thank you for the fact that you have been their their big brother or
have been their their big brother or their friend to look up to. And so I I
their friend to look up to. And so I I think about this a lot which is like
think about this a lot which is like what am I modeling
what am I modeling >> as a as a podcaster? We're both in the
>> as a as a podcaster? We're both in the top 10 list of the global podcasts uh
top 10 list of the global podcasts uh according to Spotify. So do you think
according to Spotify. So do you think about what you you model and do you
about what you you model and do you think about what a good man is? Do you
think about what a good man is? Do you think about what you want your audience
think about what you want your audience to think of a man's responsibility is?
to think of a man's responsibility is? >> Yeah, very much so. That being said,
>> Yeah, very much so. That being said, I've never claimed to be some shining
I've never claimed to be some shining example of what people should do.
example of what people should do. >> Uh I certainly know that I try my best
>> Uh I certainly know that I try my best to
to be the sort of guy that I would want to
be the sort of guy that I would want to be friends with. I I quite like me. I
be friends with. I I quite like me. I quite like me. And I've worked really
quite like me. And I've worked really hard. I didn't like me. And I worked
hard. I didn't like me. And I worked really, really hard to form myself into
really, really hard to form myself into a shape, a construction.
a shape, a construction. I feel big emotions, for instance. And
I feel big emotions, for instance. And for a long time I was very ashamed of
for a long time I was very ashamed of them and I wouldn't get below the neck
them and I wouldn't get below the neck and I would use intellect to like
and I would use intellect to like protect myself from feeling my feelings.
protect myself from feeling my feelings. And on stage anybody that's come to see
And on stage anybody that's come to see my live show I get tearary every night.
my live show I get tearary every night. I get tearary telling the same story.
I get tearary telling the same story. Okay. Well, I think that's like a a good
Okay. Well, I think that's like a a good thing. I think it's a good thing for
thing. I think it's a good thing for guys who feel their emotions to show
guys who feel their emotions to show that they feel their emotions. Right.
that they feel their emotions. Right. Suppression isn't the same thing as
Suppression isn't the same thing as strength.
strength. and I've stopped suppressing. Wonderful.
and I've stopped suppressing. Wonderful. I think that there is uh wonderful
I think that there is uh wonderful upside in trying to conquer and trying
upside in trying to conquer and trying to achieve mastery, trying to really
to achieve mastery, trying to really drive yourself to go and do stuff. But
drive yourself to go and do stuff. But I'm not like [ __ ] your feelings, just
I'm not like [ __ ] your feelings, just hustle and grind until your eyes bleed
hustle and grind until your eyes bleed either. So, I'm trying to show balance.
either. So, I'm trying to show balance. I think mindfulness is really important.
I think mindfulness is really important. I think that a physical practice is
I think that a physical practice is really important. All of this stuff kind
really important. All of this stuff kind of appears in the exterior. Remember
of appears in the exterior. Remember what I said before? What's the
what I said before? What's the conversation we're prepared to have?
conversation we're prepared to have? What's the one thing that you should be
What's the one thing that you should be doing? It's usually the big thing. The
doing? It's usually the big thing. The big thing is probably going to be
big thing is probably going to be something to do with have a [ __ ]
something to do with have a [ __ ] family, dude. Like, it's time for you to
family, dude. Like, it's time for you to have a family, but it's a uh
have a family, but it's a uh >> Is that scary for you? Be honest.
>> Is that scary for you? Be honest. >> To have a family? No.
>> To have a family? No. >> But the the sacrifice and commitment
>> But the the sacrifice and commitment >> It used to be.
>> It used to be. >> It used to be.
>> It used to be. >> Used to be. Yeah. Of course.
>> Used to be. Yeah. Of course. >> When did that change?
>> When did that change? >> Two years ago.
>> Two years ago. >> Really?
>> Really? >> Two or three years ago? Yeah. Yeah.
>> Two or three years ago? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And again, we are products of our
Yeah. And again, we are products of our environment. like all of the the
environment. like all of the the cornucopia of different things that we
cornucopia of different things that we can do. Look at this paniply of options
can do. Look at this paniply of options that I could spend my life doing. And
that I could spend my life doing. And you sort of get shiny object syndrome
you sort of get shiny object syndrome and you chase after things and isn't it
and you chase after things and isn't it going to be exciting and then you get to
going to be exciting and then you get to where you thought you wanted to be and
where you thought you wanted to be and you go
you go that might not be the answer.
that might not be the answer. That's why
That's why having a bit of time to reflect, having
having a bit of time to reflect, having a little bit of time for quiet, fleeting
a little bit of time for quiet, fleeting thoughts to come up. Like a busy
thoughts to come up. Like a busy calendar is a hedge against existential
calendar is a hedge against existential loneliness. Right? If you are always
loneliness. Right? If you are always needed by somebody, you don't have to
needed by somebody, you don't have to sit with your quiet thoughts. You don't
sit with your quiet thoughts. You don't have to think, "Oh, [ __ ] that deep
have to think, "Oh, [ __ ] that deep question that's been in the back of my
question that's been in the back of my mind. I'm it's easy to push off if
mind. I'm it's easy to push off if people want me or I move from
people want me or I move from caffeinefueled meeting to evening
caffeinefueled meeting to evening dinner. I actually have to listen to
dinner. I actually have to listen to that." But if you sit with your thoughts
that." But if you sit with your thoughts for a little bit, and this is why a lot
for a little bit, and this is why a lot of people don't like sitting with their
of people don't like sitting with their thoughts, this stuff comes up. And
thoughts, this stuff comes up. And that's why the question, "What emotions
that's why the question, "What emotions are you unprepared to feel?" is so good.
are you unprepared to feel?" is so good. >> What changed two years ago that made you
>> What changed two years ago that made you change your perspective?
change your perspective? >> I don't know. I grew up. I just I guess
>> I don't know. I grew up. I just I guess that's what growing up is called. Like
that's what growing up is called. Like it wasn't some moment where the skies
it wasn't some moment where the skies opened and and things changed. I noticed
opened and and things changed. I noticed I used to think I used to think that
I used to think I used to think that kids were super annoying. My business
kids were super annoying. My business partner uh had his first son when he was
partner uh had his first son when he was 25. So I would have been 252, 25, 26
25. So I would have been 252, 25, 26 maybe. And I remember thinking, [ __ ]
maybe. And I remember thinking, [ __ ] like he just can't come out with me
like he just can't come out with me anymore. Like he's busy. He's got all
anymore. Like he's busy. He's got all this stuff to do. And then each kid that
this stuff to do. And then each kid that he had, it was about two years apart,
he had, it was about two years apart, each one. I noticed my relationship to
each one. I noticed my relationship to the child was different. I was like,
the child was different. I was like, "Oh, okay. Well, you know, they're kind
"Oh, okay. Well, you know, they're kind of kind of cute or whatever." And then
of kind of cute or whatever." And then another one came along and I'm like,
another one came along and I'm like, "Okay, like that's really." So, I saw
"Okay, like that's really." So, I saw this sort of um sedimentary rock, this
this sort of um sedimentary rock, this like archaeological dig of myself
like archaeological dig of myself change, and now I'm godfather to uh my
change, and now I'm godfather to uh my best friend's daughter, beautiful
best friend's daughter, beautiful daughter who's like four months old, 5
daughter who's like four months old, 5 months old. And I love going around and
months old. And I love going around and seeing her. And yeah, I I don't know.
seeing her. And yeah, I I don't know. It's just growing up, dude. Growing up's
It's just growing up, dude. Growing up's weird because something changes and you
weird because something changes and you kind of didn't choose it. Do you know
kind of didn't choose it. Do you know what I mean? Like, did you choose?
what I mean? Like, did you choose? >> No. [ __ ] me. No, it's weird, man. It's
