These folks are both my good friends and
also extraordinarily powerful
individuals in their various spaces. And
so I really really
I really really appreciate your time and
your willingness to um spend this hour
with us. So, what I've asked is for each
of them to give maybe about a 10-minute
overview. Um, you know, they've all read
the questions that were submitted and,
you know, of course, they have their own
stories that they generally tell, which
they do often. So, I will let them
introduce themselves and again with much
appreciation, Michelle, Sure. Um, hi, my
name is Michelle. I'm so
>> And I am I am recording this because
there are a couple of folks still so
that's why that's good morning. Thanks
for having me this morning. My name is
Michelle Shley Driver. I work for Rural
Action, which is a local nonprofit based
in Athens County, working throughout
Appalachian, Ohio, and the central
Appalachian region. Um, working towards
sustainable community and economic
development solutions. So, the work that
I have done with Rural Action has
primarily focused around wershed
restoration. I've been a member of our
watershed restoration team um since my
first experience with rural action was
in 2005 when I joined as an Americaore
VISTA member um right out of graduation
from Ohio University and I worked with
our Huff run restoration watershed
restoration program of near Mineral
City. Um, then I I went to Arizona for a
while, taught environmental education,
got married, did a whole bunch of stuff
out there, came back for grad school
here at OU. Um, and then ended up doing
um, masters of environmental science and
I did the leadership option. I'm not
sure is that still what it's called or
is it called something else now?
>> They've changed the name.
>> Yes. Okay. So, the practicum not I did
not write a thesis. did a community
project with the Sunday creek wershed
group which is also part of rural action
and um I did did all of my grad work um
in conjunction with the Sunday creek
wershed group and the Ohio Department of
Natural Resources. I served as an
engineer with them and then after I
graduated my masters I um honestly was
in the right place at the right time and
I fell into the water coordinator
position there at Sunday Creek and um
I've been with Rash ever since. So that
was 2010
but I started there. Um so during that
time my position with action has um
shifted and transitioned and evolved a
lot. Um when I first started and were
very singularly focused on Sunday Creek
um in that geography 145 square miles
that wershed Sunday flows into the
hockey river um at Chansy if any of you
are familiar like going out state route
13 towards Burrow um that's the Sunday
Creek wershed it Sunday follows um state
route 13 for quite a ways up into
southern Perry County near Cornney and
so I spent a lot of my first years at
rural action in racing around in woods,
finding acid m drainage issues, um
project development with ODNR to get
some treatment systems installed on the
landscape um to clean up the water in
Sunday Creek. Then we had a moment of
where we really had to make pretty
serious pivot and think about um how we
were going to fund our work and the
watershed restoration um for the long
term because this the funding that we
were relying on through the state of
Ohio was not reliable. So we started
looking at um expanding our geographic
focus, expanding different kinds of of
water impairments we looked at and um
thinking about earned income activities.
So we are a nonprofit but um one of the
best ways for nonprofits to make money
is to engage in business activities um
that they feel good about. So, um, we
started really trying to see what we
could do as far as that, which kind of
set the foundation for jump ahead
another couple years. We're ready to
make a move on treating acid migraine,
one of the largest discharge sites at
True Town, which we call the True
Pigments Project. So um having rural
action, having this um you know maybe 10
years ago really looking at what we
could do earned income wise being open
to the idea of social enterprises and
entrepreneurship and holding business
businesses within that nonprofit
umbrella. I think that really opens us
up to be able to take this leap um with
True Pigments. So, um I my background is
certainly the watershed restoration,
biology, biological monitoring, those
types of things. Um the last couple
years really stepped more into the
social enterprise and entrepreneurship
and learned a lot about business um
principles, ideas. Um, a lot of it is
learning as we went and um, you know,
really digging deep into the amazing
network of professionals and expertise
that we have here in Athens and within
our our nonprofit circles. Guess I'll
start there.
>> Wow. Okay. Jeez. Um, she's still got it.
I'll stand up.
All right. So, I'm Dan. Hi. Um, this is
going to be great because Michelle and I
have a lot in common, but we're also
really, really different in terms of our
careers and everything. So, um, I left
here in 81 with a bachelor's in
electrical engineering and a master's or
less in philosophy and had absolutely no
idea what I was going to do with my
life. So, I had no plan. I had no
resume. I had nothing. And so from here,
I sold my motorcycle, bought a
Volkswagen, and literally just headed
west with a small cup of tea and didn't
stop until I hit the Pacific Ocean. Um,
and so, uh, that's kind of how I
started. My background is in business.
And what might be a little bit unique
and might be a little applicable here is
that I've been involved in at least I've
run at least three businesses that uh
were clean tech businesses that had some
connection with the environment. So one
of them was a energy storage that's code
for a battery a rechargeable battery
that was like 95% recyclable. The
lithium batteries that are in your
phones and watches and everything that
we do, those batteries are typically
about maybe 40% recyclable. That's
increasing and they also tend to blow up
if you mistreat them. And the battery
that we developed didn't didn't do that.
And so then the second business that I
was involved in um was a solar business.
And what we did is we installed solar
panels in residential areas and some
commercial areas. And solar panels and
solar energy is just phenomenal. It's
just great. It's for-profit business.
And then the third business I was
involved in was a company that actually
made solar panels are made of this
material called silicon. And the silicon
uh requires very very high temperature
furnaces like 3,000° C. That's like the
temperature of the sun. And so we made
those furnaces which costs cost hundreds
of thousands of dollars that made the
solar panels. And we had certain processes
processes
um in in the furnaces that we designed.
we were able to make that silicon in a
very very efficient way which meant that
there was less waste that was going and
it could not be not be recycled. So I
don't really consider myself a social
entrepreneur and um but yet I've been
involved in these businesses that are
kind of really good for the environment.
Um, one of the questions was, uh, what
brought you back here to Athens? When I
left in ' 81, I never thought I would
ever return to Athens. And for 25 years,
I didn't. I'm in San Diego. I'm running
this company. And the dean of the the
Russ College of Engineering, somehow he
found me. He shows up. We have a
meeting. I show him around. And we have
a really, really good talk and he says,
"Hey, how would you like to come back to
OU?" and and uh meet with students and
tell them about your leadership
experiences. And my first reaction is no
effing way. Students, you guys are
really scary, you know, and it's like,
oh my god, this gonna that's going to
end really badly. But he convinced me.
And so I went back and it didn't end too
badly and I was invited again. And then
that just resulted in a slippery slope
and I've become now I'm back here
probably every every six weeks. Um I'm
involved in some outside outside stuff
at the university which is really in
some ways has been extremely satisfying
because and you guys might be a little
bit different but most univer most of
the students here live in the university
bubble and they have no idea what goes
on in Appalachia or in this impoverished
community that we live in. And so in the
last probably three, four years, I've
gotten I've gotten connected and I see
what's happening there. And um it makes
me want to venture outside the
university bubble and and in some ways
try to connect or try to, you know, help
the people that need help outside the
community. So that's that's who I am.
>> Thank you so much. And now you have a
very long list of questions. So what I'd
like to do is ask you to maybe respond
>> I thought they were all really excellent
questions. So um thank you for your
thoughtfulness and putting this
together. Um I think that I I wanted to
kind of focus first. Um, I think as we
talk, we'll probably end up kind of
hitting on all of these, but um, I
wanted I I like there were several of
them that talked about, you know, how do
we we work in a very collaborative way
with a lot of different agencies or like
pulling together different priorities.
There were several questions that kind
of touched on that idea. So, I'll start
there. Um, because none of this work
with true events would would be where it
was at without, you know, a lot of of
people through the years. I mean,
jumping back 30 years to when Rural
Action began the watershed restoration
program with local people, citizens who
are concerned about water quality. Um,
they've banded together with rural
action, the Ohio Department of Natural
Resources, Office of Service Mining, the
Wayne National Forest, the Ohio EPA,
like whole long list of all these state
and federal agencies. But at the heart
of that is the people, the relationships
that people built. um you know whatever
their day job was there are a lot of
people who have been very um deeply
involved in the work but never got paid
for any piece of that. So, um, thinking
about all those people who really built
that foundation, you know, meeting by
meeting and like brick by brick and
building that trust over 30 years to the
point where I could take a project to
ODNR and say, "Hey, John and Guy, John
Sprawl, Guy Reer, we're pretty sure we
can make pigment and sell it out of the
iron and AMD." And, you know, nobody's
done that really on a large scale.
People have done that before in
Pennsylvania. People have um humans have
been using iron oxide as pigment since
the cave ca you know caveman paintings.
The earliest paintings that we have are
those red ochre paintings that you've
seen pictures of. That's iron oxide.
That's what we're trying to pull out of
this water here in southeast Ohio and
make into a valuable commodity that we
can sell and pay for water treatment.
But for a state agency like DNR that's
very much like dirty water. We clean it.
We have this much money. We're going to
do it these projects that we've been
doing 40 years. Same types of projects.
Gets a little bit of a settle to get
them. The first couple times we brought
it to them, they were like, yeah, we
can't spend money on that, you know, and
these are people I work with every day.
These are friends. And um they were
like, we we just we can't do that. Um so
then we brought in other people who were
willing to take a little bit of more of
a risk. Um, so you know that entered the
Sugar Bush Foundation, which is a a
local family foundation based here in
Athens County and working really closely
with the Athens County community and
with the university. And um, even the
first time they asked us to apply, I'm
pretty sure. And then they were like,
"Yeah, we have way too many questions
about this." So they didn't fund us the
first year we applied. We came back to
them the next year with um really with a
a much better sense of the questions
that we needed to answer to get other
people to kind of buy in. We knew we had
a vision, but we um some of the
questions honestly that they asked like
weren't even on our radar that we we
just didn't think they were that
important. But to get other people on
board, it was. So really taking the time
to um try to reach out to people even um
folks who haven't maybe don't have um
the expertise you think that you need
can be really valuable and then thinking
about how we move forward balancing all
those priorities um you know I think
anytime you talk about social
enterprises and this project you know
really does embody that that model very
well you're thinking about we do four Ps
so we are talking about um planet,
people, prosperity, and then we like to
add purpose as either a fourth P or like
a big kind of overarching P um of the
purpose. Why are we doing this? And so I
think when you're talk when you're
thinking about running a business as a
social enterprise having it embody those
principles there's always some give and
take because if it's business the the
good the benefit of the business to
happen the business has to stay in
business right so that that prosperity
piece that profit piece um is really
important and that's the piece like
we've been kind of carrying forward in
this um whole enterprise while also um
Maybe that's not the most important one
to any of us in the union, but it is so
critical to making this project work.
ODNR has to be worried about the
environmental because legally they have
to spend their money to um to um clean
up environmental issues tied to acid
mine drainage. So that is a legal
mandate um that they so they have to be
very careful with the things with their
money. They can't support a business
necessarily, but they can clean up acid
m drainage. So they're kind of carrying
that as their main number one goal um
while saving money um as much as
possible. The university obviously
education and research. So we're really
moving that forward and trying to
maintain a lot of student involvement in
the project. Um, and then for rural
action as a community development
organization, we also very much shoulder
the the people aspect of the project and
thinking about how this will affect um
our neighbors, how it could affect um
people throughout the county as we clean
water, as we offer new jobs, those those
types of of opportunities as well. So,
um, you know, I I think about the four
keys as and balancing all of those as I
think about balancing our partnership
because it's true like all of us have
the same vision and we've all tried um,
you know, really um,
gone in on that full steam ahead.
Everyone is very invested but um we all
have those different priorities and
because we work with these big state
agencies and the university like that's
clunky you know the best way is a kind word
um it can be difficult you know there
are sometimes when we're trying to run
like even just finding a grant to the
university is is difficult and it's hard
to share resources sometimes s um and
Rural Action is definitely a a larger
nonprofit than a lot of the other
partners that that maybe we work with in
the county, but we're still I mean we're
not huge by any means and we don't um
you know we kind of get dwarfed by by
DNR or by by the university in some
instances. So, making sure that we're
all equally represented in room um when
we're making decisions, but um I think
being able to leverage everyone's best
assets. So the university has so many resources
resources
um and expertise and students um and but
we can be a little bit more flexible and
um we have the the space to to really
push some of these innovations and take
risks that um you know the state isn't
once you get into bureaucracy it's
harder to convince people of you know I
just have to get to Zabby our CEO and
then to the board and then we can make a
decision tomorrow on something
potentially whereas But, you know, so I
think just um continuing to to leverage
resources and let folks um the entity or
folks partner that is best suited to do
certain pieces to really like trust them
to do that. I think that's what we have
been able to do to really move this this
project forward. So before we go to your
choice of favorite question, I did want
to build on that a little bit because we
uh and I have a a specific direction I
want to go with this. So this was um
what we were talking about this morning
before you arrived and it's the um the
tension between mission and money in
social enterprises. And so I had shared
this um you know reddish diagram which I
really like with you folks before. And
so one of the interesting things I think
about true pigments is that in a way I
see it having moved through this
trajectory right. So, you know, starting
out, as you said, largely donorfunded or
grant funded, now you know, an LLC that,
you know, um has a potential revenue
stream, has significant, um, you know,
physical aspects of the production as it
were of a product. Um, and then what we
were talking about this morning, and I
think this melds with some of the
questions that you received, Dan. Um,
you know, what is the AOIA? What is an
impact investment firm? And if indeed
and true pigments as I explained this
morning is is not on this route yet and
may maybe never will. I'm seeing you not yet.
yet.
>> But let's say theoretically if you
wanted to keep going up there um to you
know we were talking about Duolingo
because I had to listen to the the TED
talk by the founder. So 13.26 billion on
the NASDAQ. I mean it's not impossible
that true could get there although
perhaps unlikely. However, if that's the
trajectory that you were going, so first
of all, let's talk about AOIA and how
you know if two pigments were to go from
there to there, how would AOIA fit in
that equation and then you know what
kind of what kind of things would you
look at in order to assess its capacity
to join that fund? Okay. So, uh the
question to me is about a the Okay. So,
um what Faith is talking about is the
Athens, Ohio Investment Alliance and we
are an angel fund. Does anybody know
what an angel fund is? So, what an angel
fund? So, there's there's three types of
companies that will invest in
entrepreneurs and and companies. So one
is called an angel fund and an angel
fund invests in companies where
basically the company's still at the
idea stage. Typically does not have
customers uh may not even have a mature
product. It's more like a hope and a
dream. So angel investors take a lot of
risks but sometimes those companies end
up doing really really really well.
The second type of investor is a venture
capital firm. And you've heard of those,
Silicon Valley and whatnot. And those
companies invest, those investment
companies invest in early stage
companies that are further along. So
they might have a product, they might
have the beginning of customers and
their trajectory looks a little bit more
certain but maybe a little bit less
risky. And then the third is private
equity where the company's already
mature. It's making money, it's got
customers, and insurance companies, uh
your 401k plan, Ohio University, they
typically will have uh relationships
with people that that invest in those
kinds of companies because the risk is
is very small. Getting back to the angel
fund, Athens, the Athens Alliance,
our mission is to find companies in
Appalachia that that have promise but
typically would not be able to get
funding from a more traditional from a
more traditional source. If the world's
a perfect place, those companies would
have some kind of social or, you know,
3P or orientation,
but we don't really screen for that. And
most of the companies that we've um met
don't don't have that. They're doing
different they're doing different
things. So, we look for companies like
that. And it's hard. We it's hard to
find companies that have the right kind
of potential where we think that if our
members we get our money for members.
We've got 40 or so members in the
community that have invested money into
this fund and yeah there was something
about the fund that resonated with them.
It's going to do well. It's going to do
good in Appalachia. It's going to help
Appalachian companies. But make no
mistake, every single person that
invested in this fund expects not that
it was a donation that they'll at least
come out even or make a little bit of
money. And some people are hoping to
make a lot of money. Some people if they
come out even will be just great. But um
typically people invested not because
they thought that it was going to be a
donation and they would lose their
money. So we held companies in in two
primary ways. One is we'll actually fund
the company. They'll go through a due
diligence process where we ask a
bazillion questions on a whole range of
things. And if we think that the CEO or
the management team is good and we think
the business has potential, meaning that
it eventually can make money and it
eventually could be successful, that's
great. And so then we would invest in
the company. But we help companies in a
different way. And I think actually just
significantly and I can think of two examples.
examples.
We help companies that aren't ready yet.
So they come to us seeking investment
and we say, you know, gee, this you're
just not ready and and it's not going to
work. But we help the company along. One
of the companies that we did that is a
company that's that works here in Athens
and they have created a business that
that if you have a a property and it has
invasive plants that that extinguish or
get rid of all the good type of vegetation.
vegetation.
This company has found a way to get rid
of rid of that invasive we don't like
this ve vegetation to let more
productive vegetation thrive. And so
they were not ready for investment but
through counseling of some of our
members we helped them along and now
that business actually is thriving to
the point where probably doesn't need
our investment. I forget the name of
that keeping it native.
>> Yeah. There's another company completely different
different
and they're actually not based in
Athens, but they developed a system uh where
where when
when
farmers have crops and those crops may
dusted for insecticides or fertilizer or
whatnot. There's a lot of regulations
that guide how that crop dusting from
airplanes can be done. This business is
called Red Sparrow. And this gentleman
had found a way to to do that um in a
way that provided the documentation and
the certifications that the government
requires to make sure that whatever was
being applied to the properties was
being done in a government in a legally
compliant way and they weren't just
sticking bad pesticides and bad stuff.
So they figured out a process to um meet
the certification requirements of the
government, but this founder wasn't
ready. And so a couple of the people in
the fund helped this person through
multiple meetings and calls to be able
to figure out how they would be able to
get ready that what they would need to
do in order to receive funding. So we
didn't invest in that company. we might,
but we help that entrepreneur get to the
point where um somebody would invest
with them. And then there was another
company, a ride sharing company for
senior citizens. And that was an
entrepreneur that wasn't ready and may
not have had a business that had legs,
but we helped her
sort of see the things that she needed
to do to make the business successful
and possibly to get to get funding. So
putting this all blending this all
together. This angel fund that's created
that faith is is a part of we try to
help companies in a couple different
ways. Help entrepreneurs that aren't
ready yet and haven't figured it out
guide them along. And then for those
early stage companies that meet our
investment criteria are going to
eventually be successful. we go through
a process where we'll invest money and
then and then help them help them along
the way.
>> And I just wanted to also throw up
another slide, the one that I was just
about to talk to um
which talks about an ecosystem and not a
a biological ecosystem. This slide is a
little old so some of the names are not
appropriate. I don't even know if anyone
is on there. But what I think, you know,
I think I'm hearing Dan say, and
something that I've certainly spent my
17 years at the Boer School working on
is bringing together all of these
different funders, all of these
different um social economic uh
impactful organizations, all of these
different schools in the region. And you
know, thinking about Athens is sort of
as it happens more or less in the middle
of that picture. This is not just a um a
city issue. This is not just a regional
issue. It's a multi-state. It's an
Appalachian. It's a Mid Ohio Valley
issue. And we can all come together and
help each other and build our economic
ecosystem and our social economic system
together. And so to me, the AOIA, the
Impact Alliance, all of the different
firms, Rural Action, um, all of the
nonprofits are absolutely integral
pieces of a very large quilt. We were
talking earlier about the quilt
national. So that's I think as you think
of your enterprises, your nonprofits,
what you're starting here, what how am I
a part of a of a larger picture and
that's where you know I often talk not
about um you know competing not about
competition but about collaboration how
do I in a socially impactful fashion
collaborate with everybody who's already
there identify the gaps and do
something. So um I have talked too much.
We have our guests. So while so both of
them have been talking a little bit
about their backgrounds and uh what they
u some some things about the questions
that they liked before again we go to
Dan and let him talk about his favorite
question. Um what in the class what has
arisen as a result of what you've heard
so far? Any any questions that you have
Camel. um just being
more sustainable business people owners
or collaborators. Um, how have how if
you have felt this way
like I guess how do you keep your morals
with you know having to
base like having to keep in mind that
you do need funds and revenue coming in
but also having like a um a mission that
is socially related and environmentally
related. Like how how do you deal with
jump in. Um, so True Pigments is an LLC.
Um, it's wholly owned by the nonprofit
Rural Action. So, at this point in time,
because we we don't have a full-scale
facility built yet, we're hoping to
start construction in the spring. Um, I
am really only doing very limited
business activities, right? So, I have
I'm selling these which I sell, you
know, like probably I mean less than
$10,000 worth a year, but everything else.
else. >> Absolutely.
>> Absolutely.
>> Um so these are three oil paint colors.
Um the set was created by artist Colors.
They're a paint company out in Portland,
Oregon. Um if you flip this box over,
there's photos our team. Um you know,
John and Guy should be on there, too.
which really was his idea, but he didn't
make it to the box. Um, but all of that
to say, like we're still ramping up, you
know, we we won't be operating as a
full-scale business until we have a
product to sell. Um, which so we're
still a couple years out from having
that full scale facility. But even now
as we are tackling logistical issues and
thinking about our our supply chain,
even just like who when when we first
started talking about true pigments with
that vision for the social enterprise,
we had I had a a technical advisor
committee and we talked about things
like are we going to put in to who we
sell to? Do we want our pigment to go to
certain sectors that we don't know? We
shut down an opportunity years ago to
work with Patel. um because there they
had some kind of black box black box
technology they wanted to use at True
Town. The end product was a fertilizer
that was really as all of the issues
around Lake Purity and the algae blooms
and and we have a wershed restoration
program and a sustainable agriculture
program. And so we're actually didn't
feel great about creating fertilizers
from this waste product that was
polluting water here. Are we gonna make
fertilizers since I'm not somewhere else
and it's gonna cause more of a problem
somewhere else? Um, you know, there's
the packaging that we're looking at to
use in whenever we start selling all of
these things. You know, it is hard to
sometimes even just like figure it out
where some of these resources come from
and and to find their life cycle. So,
um, you can very quickly go down rabbit
holes that end up like instead of paying
a dollar just like off a dollar for a
bag, now we we pay $8 for a bag and we
can't support that as a business if we
want to still make money. And then so
there are there's always a give and take
and there's every decision is tied to a
whole cascade of other decisions. And so
we have been trying to keep as we move
forward towards the start of our
operations, keeping the big picture of,
you know, we're trying to clean up seven
miles of Sunday creek and and improve
the water quality of Sunday Creek and
the Hawking River and this entire
watershed um that will benefit and we
have we know what those benefits are. So
on a lot of those some of it is just
like does that outweigh you know is this
an acceptable
you know decision do we still you know
we don't want to make a decision that we feel
feel
terrible you know we can't do that plus
we we still have our board of directors
to answer to and so they're keeping um
you know all of the vision and the
values for action so in that way I think
we are unique because we are very
closely tied to those programmatic goals
and that vision of the nonprofit
purpose. Um, but so far we've there's
just they've been little things like
that which you know when you think about
how much product we're going to be
sending out just like the the bag
material feels like a little decision
but it's going to be a big decision you
know like could have a big impact. So
just kind of thinking through those and
being thoughtful. Um and also the folks
that you know making sure that the
people that you're working with that are
helping you make those decisions hold
the same values or at least that you
talk about those values so you know
where people are coming from to make
those decisions. Yeah.
Yeah.
>> I think it's a great great question and
I'm gonna I'm gonna take that from a
little bit of a different perspective.
So um when I think of sustainability
I think of it in two terms. One of it
one one way I think about it is
environmental sustainability which is
kind of the overall theme here. But the
other way to think about sustainability
is that the business itself has to be
sustainable over time. So if the
business is not sustainable over time
then whatever whatever purpose or uh
environmental sustainability objectives
you have are not going to be met. So I
place a lot of emphasis
I think it's a lot easier
for for those of you that that think
this way. It's a lot easier for you to
find purpose and that I want to clean up
a watershed. I want to be focused on a
certain part of the the ecosystem.
That's easy to get a passion and a
purpose around. What's really hard is to
figure out how to create a business
around that that is sustainable. And by
definition, for a business to be
sustainable, you need two things. One is
you need initial money to kick it off.
And in the world that we're talking
about, generally that comes from funding
and grants. Okay. And so that is a very
very fragile world. The grant that you
got today is not going to be maybe the
grant that you get tomorrow, especially
in this political in this economic and environmental
environmental
uh political world that we live in. And
then the second part of that, the money
part is you've got to figure out a way
to to make profit
in a way that is consistent with your
values. So you heard Michelle talk about
we're not going to buy we're not going
to buy certain materials that are going
to harm the environment or that are
associated with a company that we don't
you know we don't believe in. For
example, REI, the recreation place, they
don't buy product from Camelback because
Camelback has investors that are also
investors in companies that make guns.
So, that's an example of a large large
company having certain policies that
that um are consistent with their
values. The point that I'm trying to
make here is that um the business side
of this to be able to get funding beyond
your initial grants is really really
important because in my world and Faith
and Michelle know a lot more about this
than I do because I don't live in that world
world
getting getting grants over a sustained
period of time is very fragile. It takes
a lot of effort. So if you start a a
company, social entrepreneur company,
you are going to be spending a lot of
time, a lot more time than a company
that is figuring out a way to, you know,
do something in the tech world. You're
going to be spending a lot of time
trying to convince people that your
purpose is something that should be
funded. And and so uh that is a that is
a fundamental difference between a
normal for-profit company that makes TV
screens or whatever and something that's
doing something where the people plan it
prosperity or the more the objectives.
It's a great question.
>> Thank you. I that's just been something
I've had on my mind in this class. So
thank you for answering that and we
definitely are going to be talking a lot
about that. that's at the root of a lot
of of the yes the content that we'll
have Mickey
>> um kind of going off of that but rather
um more like physical things that limit
you hopefully this makes sense in the
question um but I know Michelle you were
talk you mentioned legal mandates um in
your like summary of what you do and I
was wondering for whether it's a
nonprofit or profit making business um
what kind of restrictions like those do
you often face um in the or they do and
how do you kind of work around those restrictions?
restrictions?
>> I can give a short answer. Michelle
might have a longer answer. Um
there's uh
in any community that a business
operates in. There's certain
environmental restrictions you have. You
can't be dumping things with the waste
waste whatnot. There are certain uh
safety things that a company has to
conform to. you you know you you there's
an organization called OSHA which makes
sure it's responsible for work workplace safety
safety
in a lot of businesses and I live in
California but it's also true in in
other states
some of the biggest legal
the the most complicated things that we
have to navigate around actually are
around employees and labor. So in
California, for instance, if you don't
give people two 10-minute breaks a day,
they can sue you. And the employees must
take the break. So for example, uh
you're working and and you decide, you
know, you're not going to take your
break, the company will get sued for
that. So in you know uh states like New
York, Illinois, California, some other
states, one of the things as you get a
company that has employees, you will
have to be very mindful of how you treat
those employees and making sure that
you're conforming to the labor laws
which vary state by state. The other
stuff in a normal business is just
normal stuff. You don't lie, you don't
cheat, you file your taxes, you know,
just normal normal type of stuff.
>> I think particularly when in the uh
investment alliance we're looking at
tech companies, what is the regulatory
environment is a question that's sort of
a part of due diligence depending
particularly on the nature of the
manufacturer and so on. So regulatory
environment in your case, Michelle.
>> Yeah. So what I was referencing um with
the legal mandate is is more having to
do with the funding that we currently
have. So, um, because action is a
nonprofit and the LLC is under it, we've
been able to support all of the work so
far with grant funding. And so, that
could come with a whole pile of, you
know, depending on the funer, depending
on is it a state agency? Is it even the
reporting requirements are different
from states, federal um some of the one
grant that we have now is a state grant,
but it admin the state got the grant
from the federal agency, so they're
having to report there. So there's all
these layers of um reporting or
regulation that in that way um and and
with state agencies they are bound by um
you know the state legislator
legislature has created these agencies
to do a certain job and so ODNR has to
legally do that job or um it makes more
sense in like a regulatory sense you
know when for example a coal company
wants to start operating in Ohio they
put in an application
ODNR reviews that and ODNR's job is to
basically check all those boxes and if
the company has done all of the things
that they are supposed to do, they have
to approve and and um license that mine
to go forward. So there have been
instances, you know, if the state the
company feels like the state said no for
a reason that isn't valid or isn't
written within those guidelines, um the
state can get sued for that, too. So
there's, you know, it's it's all these
things of like trying to figure out, you
know, like we have to figure out all
these these um um follow the guidance
within funding. As far as what we're
moving forward now, the project that we
um are doing is tied to federal funding.
All federal projects have to go through
the NEPA process, which is National
Environmental Protection.
I don't know what the A stands for
actually. probably just act honestly
because it was a um but NEO the NEPA
process we're going through that now on
a couple projects that I'm working on
not true payments but basically if it's
federal money the federal government has
to make sure it's not breaking any of
its own laws when it does a project so
it's a checklist to go through all of
the environmental compliance and so we
had to do that for Truetown as well
before we did phase one construction out
on our site um we had to make sure that
we weren't destroying wetlands or if we
were that we were mitigating for those
that we there wasn't any historic
preservation things um that were on site
the Indian mounds or um historic
buildings or structures um which they
tried to tell us that part of it was
because it was mine it was a little
pumping station that's actually right
where the water is coming up out of the
mine and we fought back like pushed a
little bit it wasn't a fight I shouldn't
have said that but we pushed a little
bit and we're like yeah this needs this
needs to happen like we can't preserve
the water coming out like that's the
whole point is we're trying to treat it.
So, um there's always there's it was a
conversation. Um but that was kind of
the what I was thinking about when I
said legal mate was more on that funding
that's tied to grants and tied to the
federal, but we do have some all of the
things that Dan mentioned of following
all those regulations. Um we don't have
any employees yet of the LLC, so I
haven't had to go through there, but we
we are making sure that we're we're
going to follow all those obviously. How
many of you have heard of the abundance agenda?
>> So, um this is a political buzzphrase
and there are multiple different books
that are out about it. you might do a
search on it just with regards to
regulatory environment. And the baseline
premise um is that we may have
overregulated ourselves or certain
sectors of certain states, California
being one, may have overregulated itself
into a situation where it cannot
actually achieve um socially impactful
goals like you know a high-speed rail
from um one end of the state to the
other. So, it's a very interesting sort
of bipartisan question as to what how
regulatory a regulatory environment
should be.
Um, so Dan, what was your favorite
question? Speaking of questions,
>> right? Um,
first of all, the questions were scary.
There was there were great questions. Um
I don't know if it was my favorite
question but um the question resonated
with me and the question was if you
could go more or less if you could go
back in time uh knowing what you know
now what uh what mistakes did you make
or what would you do differently? Who
asked that question by the way? Oh you again.
again.
So I'm going to answer that in a couple
of different ways.
So, um,
I'm sure that every single one of you
have experienced hardship and failure,
maybe even tragedy.
And these are the things that shape us.
These are the things that that make us
different and make us unique. And I
think also they are the things that that
really kind of give us strength and
courage. And so when I think about that question,
question,
on one hand, I think, yeah, there are
some things that I really wish that I I
knew back then. And a lot of those had
to do with my leadership style. So, um,
when I was in my 20s and 30s, my
leadership style was very, um, command
and control, let's get it done, high
energy and everything, and not so good
on empathy. You know what? Give me a
definition of empathy. Somebody give me
a definition of what they think empathy
>> being able to relate to somebody without
experiencing them.
>> Right. That's good. What else?
>> Putting somebody putting yourself in
somebody else's shoes is how it
>> Yeah. If you put those two answers together,
together,
it's sort of meeting somebody where they
are. So in other words, when you have an
interaction with somebody, instead of
coming from a coming, you know, that
interaction, you speaking from the point
of view of where your head is at, the
first thing that you want to do is
really try to figure out where that
person is. And then you tailor the
communication so that you can connect
with that person, have a meaningful,
deeper communication. And in my 20s and
30s, I didn't really kind of understand
that. And the way that I got stuff done
was my high energy in some cases running
over, you know, running over somebody.
And so in some cases that worked really
well and I had a lot of success, but
there were situations where it didn't
work so well and I didn't have success.
So that would be an example of something
that Yeah, I wish I I wish I had a more
evolved leadership style in my 20s and
30s, but
I've been fired twice.
Uh I've had to put uh two three
companies into bankruptcy mostly because
I joined companies that were distressed
and we had to do that in order to save
the companies, save the employees. And
so I've seen Can I swear? I've seen some
And so
>> I think they all know that word.
>> And I've had some big swings and and big
failures as well, like billion dollar
failures. And so I think back at that
and I've had some personal tragedies as
well as all of you have. Would I change
any of that?
Would I go back and do a doover and say
no, I didn't want that experience? And
when I think about that deeply, I think
no, I wouldn't change a thing because
those things shaped who I am for better
or worse. And I actually think better.
For every failure and for every tragedy,
I think there's a gift. Some of those
gifts have to be extracted and they they
will not see the light of day for some
period of time and then some of those
some of those gifts just come right
right out and it's obvious and
everything. So on one level the answer
to that question is no doovers you know
and the the the fups and the failures
you know own it and it's made me who I
am and and given me some sensitivities
maybe that I wouldn't have on the other
hand when we're talking about leadership
I think that one of the things that I
would encourage you is this idea of when
you're interacting with people the
listening the listening and the empathy
will enable you to be much more
effective whether you're trying to
persuade somebody to give you money or
whether you're leading a small
organization and you're trying to get
three people to follow you and to go in
the direction that you want to go.
So, wasn't my favorite question, but it
was something that really resonated with
me. Maybe it was my favorite question.
>> Well, that is a very powerful statement.
Um and and what I like to say is you
know we have we have been on the road
we've been on and we we aren't going to
get any doovers right and so you know
taking those lessons super important
that was very eloquent thank you
Michelle did you have anything to add about
about
>> yeah I like that question as well and I
I agree I think um if the question is
did would I not have any of the
experiences I had that led me here I
think no I I won't I like even the
things that felt awful in the moment
looking back there was was some lesson
or there was some pivot that I made that
led me somewhere else. But you know and
you can't go back anyway. So just like
not wasting time on that. But when I did
think about this question, the things
that I if there was a regret is not the
experiences I had, but the ones I
didn't. I wish that when I was younger,
when I was just starting out, that I was
older. I wish I had more confidence. I
think back and there are things that I
probably had the opportunity to do that
I didn't because I didn't think I knew
enough to be relevant or to be um an
asset to the group. And so I stayed back
trying to I that's a little bit more my
personality too is like I like to
observe. I like to um I'm not the person
who usually talks the most in the room
um or in a in a group. But I wish that I
had been older and that I had put myself
in those situations because now as the
person who has
sometimes organizing those rooms and h
inviting people in, I know that I don't
expect anyone in the room to have all
the answers and to know everything.
Nobody does. Even the people that have
been working in in acid drainage for 30
or 40 years, we get in these these
technical discussions and we look to
Rich or we look to Brent and they're
like, I don't know the answer to that.
No one knows the answer to everything.
Especially when you're trying to solve
really complex problems and make
innovative solutions, a lot of the work
that you're doing like you're the you're
trailblazing. You're making new
products. You're making a new business. Um,
Um,
no one, you know, no one knows exactly
what to do either. So, me being young, I
expected that other people knew a lot
more than I did and that um I didn't
want to look stupid and that was a fear
of mine. I didn't want people to not
take me seriously. Um, also starting
out, it's it's different now, but when I
first started out, a lot of times I was
the only woman in the room, and so that
felt a little bit different to me. And
as a young person, it felt intimidating
to me. not so much anymore. But um I got
to the point where I don't know if I
just decided I didn't care or decided
like maybe oh wait this person just said
that I know that you know like I
realized that I had I had confidence in
my own knowledge and my own um thinking
and my own skills. But at some point you
know I I hope that you all reach the
point where you feel confident walking
into a room and knowing that you have
something to add. And I hope you get
there a lot earlier than I did.
>> One comment to follow on what Michelle
said. Um, one of the things that can
accelerate that process is um having a mentor,
mentor,
>> somebody that is a safe place, won't
judge you, um has some scars and will in
some cases either give you that
confidence that maybe
you need, you know, an accelerant to to
provide or give you more tactical type
of advice. But, um, in my 40 plus year
career, I've only ever had two bosses
that would fall, two people that would
fall into that category. And that's kind
of not a good that's probably not a
great not a great statistic, but u I
would encourage you uh to have a mentor,
somebody that you really respect that uh
can help you help you on that path.
>> So we only have four minutes left of our
um our guests. So pressing questions
>> This kind of came up hearing you talk
about dealing with failures and coming
back from that. When you're a leader
within an organization and you have
employees looking to you as the driving
force moving through that time of
failure, if you want to call it that.
How do you deal with that as a leader?
That's a really really great question.
Um, and the answer's the answer's counterintuitive.
counterintuitive. Um,
Um,
when when an organ when you're the
leader of an organization and the
organization is having issues or
something bad has happened. um kind of
one of the truism is the leader the
leader should take credit for all the
failures and all the successes should
you know be you know be given to to
other people right you've probably heard
that before
the most effective thing that you can do
as a leader when there's been something
that has not gone right or when you have
made a mistake
two things one is very intuitive one is
The intuitive one is
no bad conversation ever starts with I'm sorry.
sorry.
So if I have a personal interaction with
somebody and I've run a muck or said
things that I later regret, an apology
always is a great way to start something
off. Okay, so that's that's obvious. The
not so obvious thing is showing vulnerability.
vulnerability.
And what's interesting about vulner
vulnerability is in order to show vulnerability,
vulnerability,
you actually have to have courage and
strength. It's kind of weird the way
that that works. And so if you're, and
I've had to do this, if you're standing
in front of, you know, um, 1,200
employees and you're shutting down a
plant, you know, if you're in your
three-piece suit and you got your neck
tie and, you know, well, you know,
corporate did this or whatnot, that
that's going to go pretty badly and the
people are just going to basically give
you, you know, screw you. On the other
hand, if you show vulnerability where um
you're expressing the emotion and and
many of the emotions that the employees
are going to be feeling and you are
honest and saying, you know, there's
some mistakes that we made that I made,
that conversation is going to be much
more um relatable and people are going
to feel much better about it. So when I
make a mistake or I have an interaction
that I'm not comfortable with, I will I
will after apology I will I will own up
to it and say you know I I really
screwed up and the reason why you know I
made this decision is because I really
wasn't thinking about this I was
thinking about that and that's not you
know I strayed from what our values are
and you know shame on me. And so the
short answer to your question is
if if there's a failure or things aren't
going the way that you want it to go as
a leader, you if an apology is in order,
you apologize. Otherwise, you own it and
you be honest with people and you show
Michelle, anything to add? Last word. [Music]
[Music]
I think being authentic, being genuine.
Um, you know, people need to be able to
trust you as a leader of an
organization, whether it's your
employees, whether it's your investors,
whether it's your partners, um,
customers, all of those people. So, um,
yeah, it's just being showing that you
are a trustworthy person. And we all
know that that doesn't come from work,
but that comes from actions over time.
So, making sure that you're always
I think that was an excellent place to
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