The discussion critiques the current American economic and political system, arguing it favors the wealthy and older generations, leading to a widening wealth gap and a sense of disillusionment among younger people, which in turn fuels radical political and economic ideologies.
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The only thing that's bipartisan is
reckless spending. The Trump
administration is a lot more socialist
than what Mum Donnie is proposing.
Golden share and US steel because Donald
Trump's so good at bankrupting casinos,
he should run a steel company. Budgets
and taxes are a reflection of our
values. And our values right now uh
state the following that we think sweat
is less noble than money. You know, I
don't want to demonize billionaires. I
want Elon Musk to make a trillion
dollars. I want him to be taxed 60 or
70% on it because the bottom line is
it's not going to make him any happier.
I think effectively America's for sale
for rich people. I feel like this is a
literally a clown car running the nation
[music] right now. It's a corrupt crime
family. I think America is already
locked in a cold civil war largely
driven by economics.
>> What happened exactly to our economy
that's made boomers so prosperous while
leaving the young to struggle mightily?
It's a multi-dimensional thing, but at
if you were to try and distill it down
to one thing, it would be that old
people vote and keep voting themselves
more money. I mean, social security,
there's a dogma or that if you would
ever talk about social security in a
negative light that there's something
wrong with you. Most arguably the most
successful social program in history
took seniors from 30% poverty to less
than eight. It's been hugely successful.
The other side of that coin is the
wealthiest generation in the history of
the planet receives 1.2 trillion dollars
each year transferred from working age
people to them every year.
>> Uh 40% of our budget is allocated
towards seniors
and we spend 4 and a.5% on the
Department of Education, 1.4% on SNAP,
40% of which goes to kids. In some kids
don't vote. And whereas previous
generations saw advantage in investing
in education and technologies and
infrastructure that had a longerterm
payoff for young people, those
investments are no longer being made.
But the things we continue to invest in
are things that benefit old people. And
then tax policy.
Two largest tax deductions, capital
gains and mortgage interest. Who owns
homes and stocks? people my age who
rents and makes their money from salary
young people. So in some old people have
figured out a way to transfer more and
more money from young to old. A average
25-year-old is 24% less wealthy than the
25-year-old 40 years ago. The average
70-year-old is 72% wealthier than the
average 72y old was 40 years ago. in
some my generation is not paying it
forward. And
the last example I'll use is co a
million people dying would be bad. But
what would be tragic is if my generation
got less wealthy. So we flushed 7
trillion into the system. 85% of which
was not spent. It was saved. So where
did that go? It went into the stock
market and the housing market. Homes
went from 290 to$420 in two years.
>> Who owns homes? people my age. So, it
was great for the incumbents. When you
bail out the baby boomer owner of a
restaurant, all you're doing is robbing
opportunity from the 25-year-old recent
graduate of a culinary academy who wants
her shot. So, we've interrupted the
natural economic cycle of boom and bust,
which transfers money back from capital
to labor or to young people such that we
could continue to make old people
wealthier and wealthier. And the net
result is for the first time in
America's history, a 30-year-old isn't
doing as well as his or her parents were
at 30.
Okay, that is uh very clear and very
bleak. So, one idea that I have thought
about endlessly, but it's the one thing
that I always hesitate to say out loud,
but it uh it goes along with what you've
just said, which is I believe for the
economy to start moving in the right
direction. We have to let some people
fail. So there has to be uh you're able
to make a series of bad decisions fall
on your face and yeah either your family
picks you up or the church picks you up,
local institution, something but someone
somewhere has to be able to fail
otherwise we hit this really weird
static position where once you get
wealthy you effectively don't fall back
out. Uh and that calcification of the um
class structure basically creates a cast
system and that's where it feels like we
are right now. Am I close to the mark on
that or do you think that's crazy? Yeah,
I I think there's a big overlap with
what I believe and that is before co the
CEOs of the three biggest airlines took
150 million in compensation out and the
way they did that was through stock
appreciation and they kept using all
their capital to buy back shares to take
the stock price up which
disproportionately elevated their
compensation and then when CO happens
the airline industry collapses they turn
into socialists and decide that we're
all in this together and they need a
bailout out. No, those businesses should
have gone chapter 11 and then someone
else and their all of their equity
should have been wiped out and someone
else should have the opportunity to buy these
these
um you know, buy these assets for
pennies on the dollar. That's part of
the natural cycle. Uh in capitalism, we
believe in winners and losers. We
believe in winners and losers for middle
class and lower income homes. Pull
yourself up by your bootstraps. But for
wealthy corporations and wealthy people,
we're constantly talking about some form
of bailout or tax policy that shields
them. And it even goes as far as the
legal structure. I believe the top 1%
are now protected by the law but not
bound by it. And the bottom 99% are
bound by the law but not protected by
it. O
>> I I believe this and that is I'm I'm
wealthy and I think with somewhere
between if my son was incarcerated
I believe that somewhere between three
and $10 million with my connections and
my capital for3 to 10 million I could
figure out a way to wiggle myself into a
crypto summit or a fundraiser at Mara
Lago and somehow get a message to the
president that I'm in for $3 million on
a Z-Wing renovation if my Oh, and by the
way, My son, my son deserves a review by
the clemency board for a pardon. I think
effectively America's for sale for rich
people. And whether it's healthcare,
whether it's getting your kid out for
for a pardon, whether it's a bailout for
your company, whether it's government contracts
contracts
uh to your company that are uh not
available to small medium-sized companies,
companies,
America's basically become
when it's capitalism on the way up, but
socialism on the way down, it's
cronyism. So I feel like we've gone full
cronyist. And what that means is eventually
eventually
this is economic history is repeats
itself in America. [clears throat] We've
always tried to exit that path. But
basically what happens is a group of
very talented very lucky people get in
the top 1% and inch by inch they
weaponize government to ensure that they
garner more and more economic power. And
then at some point the bottom 99 goes,
"The fastest way to double my or triple
my wealth would be to kill the top 1% or
to tell them they got 24 hours to pack a
suitcase and get out and nationalize
everything." That's basically the story
of Central America for the last 200
years. And we have done a good job of
trying to stay out of that by
continually redistributing income back
into the middle class. And let me use
the word redistribution.
Unless you tax people in the top 10% at
a high rate and shuffle that money back
into forward-leaning investments,
eventually that 1% will garner more and
more of the spoils. And at some point
the bottom 99 do the math and go, "Okay,
there's one guy worth more than, you
know, or 26 families are worth more than
the bottom half." At some point, the
bottom half goes, I know, let's take the
26 families [ __ ] away. So this we have
we have tried to exit this cycle of
economic history, but now it feels like
we're kind of returning to the laws of
history in the jungle. We will return to
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And now, let's get back to the show.
Yeah, I try to get people to understand
that money operates according to
something akin to physics. And if you
are uh either doing things like you're
talking about regulatory capture where
you're making it once you get in, then
you're never going to fall in your face
and get bumped back out or you just let
debt run away and people don't pay
attention to what I think is the just
absolute cataclysmic effect of debt. If
I were going to put things down to one
thing that I think has had the biggest
impact, it's that uh debt obviously
forces money printing. Money printing
forces people to try to escape. So they
go into assets, asset prices skyrocket
in addition to the other things that you
were talking about.
>> Um and the only asset that people
understand intuitively is home prices.
And so once home prices become
unavailable and people can't get on the
property ladder, they can't avoid the
impact of inflation. And so you get this
the what you're describing but not quite
saying out loud is these two divergent
economies. And so you've got the people
in the top 1% maybe the top 10% that are
doing great. 2025 has been wonderful to
me as an asset holder. And then you've
got another economy that's just doing
absolutely terrible. Uh and to your
point they they do eventually go oh yeah
uh I can separate you from your head and
uh I can do whatever I want. And so
getting people to understand the reason
that this loops in history is because
humans only behave in a certain number
of ways. Money only behaves in a certain
number of ways. And so you put those
together and you get these moments that
occur over and over and over. So when I
hear you talk, I my impulse is, oh,
let's get back to a noncrony style of
capitalism. But what I see happening
among the group that most in my opinion
needs capitalism, I see a rise of
socialism. So when you look at say mom
Donnie uh and the I I don't know if you
consider that the future of the
Democratic party. I certainly do. But
when you look at that, what what does
that tell you about what's happening
right now?
>> Young people basically are saying
whatever the current system is, it's not
working. And so I'm going to embrace
different systems. And young people who
lean conservative, David from had this
statement that really struck me. He said
that if progressives won't enforce the
border, fascists will. And what I find
is young people are saying, "This isn't
working for me. And I don't want
incremental change. I want chaos and
radical disruption. And if I lean
conservative, I'm willing to take a
strong man and nationalism and start
blaming other people and conflate
masculinity with coarseness and cruelty
or leadership with coarseness and
cruelty. And then if I'm on the left, I
think that it's socialism." And quite
frankly, these words are these words are
perverted. Socialism is the the means of
production is controlled by the state.
Communism is central planning.
Capitalism is meant to say that that the
means of production are controlled by
private sector individuals.
And we all engage in a certain level of
socialism. You know, social security is
socialism. Food stamps are socialism.
It's just where on the scale you want to be.
be.
Um, so what I think young people forget
is what Margaret Thatcher said that the
problem with socialism is eventually you
run out of other people's money. You do
need incentives that motivate people to
take risks and garner and capitalism is
winners and losers. My father who was a
Scottish immigrant said something when I
was young that I remember. He said
America is a terrible place to be
stupid. What I think he was saying is
America is a terrible space to be
unfortunate and we have voted for that.
We are willing to have a lower safety
net than other countries. I would argue
the safety net is now the ground, a
cement floor in exchange for un unprecedented
unprecedented
upside. That creates a series of
incentives that have been very
productive for the US economy and
probably resulted in more growth and a
larger tax base to tax from to hopefully
raise the net. But it's the proportion
in the extreme that's gotten out of
control where now people are worth more
than the GDP of Costa Rica and the
safety net is oh your wife has lung
cancer that probably means you're going
bankrupt. The
gag reflex of young people to socialism
is understandable.
Uh it's it's ill advised. Capitalism has
brought more people out of poverty than
anything in history. It's just what you
mean by socialism. I'm for
I mean Mami says I want to raise taxes
on billionaires. I'm actually okay with
that as long as someone shows me that
we're not going to end up with less tax
revenue because billionaires will decide
this is the final straw and they'll move
to Florida or Texas. I get it. You uh
I've lived in the highest tax states in
the world or in the union, California
and New York. And the reason I decided
to live there was it was worth it. At
some point, people decide it's no longer
worth it. Now, I don't know if what he's proposing
proposing
is that final straw. And it doesn't
appear to me that anyone wants to do the
economic analysis. I'm living in London.
They passed something called the nondom
tax reform where basically if you moved
here from Hong Kong, Tony Player passed
a bunch of private property laws that
attracted wealthy people from all over
the world. So, if you were living in
Hong Kong, you got to bring your tax
status, which basically was you paid no
tax. There are a lot of people living in
London paying zero tax. Now they pay
consumption taxes, property taxes, start
businesses, etc. They passed this
non-DOM that said, "No, if if you've
been here a certain amount of time, you
now have to you're benefiting from UK
infrastructure, you have to pay the same
taxes as UK citizens." Philosophically,
that's totally on point for me. I get
it. The problem is in the last 6 months,
10,000 millionaires have left and the
Treasury is going to collect less money
this year than it did last year. Mhm.
>> So there's there's a difference between
and one of the things I don't like about
my party on the far left is they're more
concerned with being right than being
effective. So I get it philosophically
that the wealthy should pay a little
bit. I I get it. I want a more
progressive tax structure, but you know
the top 1% pay 40% of the taxes in New
York. And also it's a bit of a false
argument, Tom, because first off, he's
not going to get it through. He he would
have any tax increase has to go through
the New York state legislature.
He's not going to be able to do it. And
then he goes to rent freeze. Oh, okay.
Great. We need more. I get it. Young
people can't afford to live in the city.
Housing is out of control. Freeze the
rent. Every economic study says the same
thing. When you try and implement rent
control, you discourage construction and
development and rents go up in cost. If
you were serious about lowering costs,
you would figure out a way to raise
revenues through some sort of tax. Maybe
it's on the wealthy, maybe it's on
corporations. And you would create tax
incentive for developers to build more.
And you would have legislation getting
rid of nimiism. And you would unlock the
private sector's building is much better
at building housing than the than I'm
sorry, the private sector is much better
at building housing than the public
sector. When public sector builds
housing, it usually ends up
concentrating poverty and creating
[snorts] a a crimeridden areas. When you
encourage builders to build a lot of
housing, you end up with this is a
supply problem. It's not a demand
problem. We need more houses.
Nationally, I think a decent plan for
the Democrats would have been the one of
the things I really don't like about my
party. They're so fond. I just went to
this Master of the Universe conference
and everyone running for president was
there including the governors of
Pennsylvania and Utah who I think are
great and they just want to cosplay
Obama and talk about all this goddamn
rhetorical flourish. Like all right, at
some point are you going to get to an
actual [ __ ] idea? Here's an idea. 8
million new homes in 10 years. This is
how you're going to do it. Manufactured
homes which cost 50% less and homes on
site. Tax incentives. Anti- nimism laws
like they've done in Austin or
Minneapolis. and we're going to build 8
million new homes in 10 years. That will
materially lower the cost. Maybe
government subsidize mortgages that
bring down the interest. We are going to
try and figure out a way to reduce the
cost of a home such that the average
income household has a shot at it and
then raise minimum wage to 25 bucks an
hour as opposed to freezing rents. It
doesn't work. So anyway, I've gone off
script here. When when America isn't
working for people, they typically don't
want policy or incremental changes, the
the reality of structural change around
affordability is going to take years, if
not decades. You need antitrust. You
need more competition. You need a
massive investment in housing. You need
to ensure that there aren't three
chicken companies controlling the entire
poultry market. You need 10. You need to
break up big tech. You need minimum wage
to go to 25 bucks an hour, which would
hurt the stock prices of McDonald's and
Walmart, and it would be worth it. You
need to put more money in the pockets of
spenders, low and middle inome homes.
You need an actual progressive tax
structure, not the one that's
progressive progressive till the 99th.
And then once you make the jump to light
speed, it crashes
and essentially put more money in the
pockets of young people who spend it.
multiplier effect grows the economy and massive
massive
um programs that increase this full body
contact violence of competition where
they are forced to offer a competitive
product at a low price. Every year big
tech has increased its margins because
they're monopolies and they're able to
charge higher and higher rents. pharma,
big egg, big big chicken, big beef. All
of these industries are able to rise
their raise their my industry is totally
corrupt. We have essentially a cartel
and we do something. I'm going to go out
really off. You
>> talking about universities?
>> Universities. I'm going through this
right now. Do you have kids, Tom?
>> I do not.
>> Okay. I have a 17-year-old and
18-year-old applying to college. There's
something called early decision. And
what they do is they say if you apply
early decision here we take the
acceptance rates from 8% to 15%. So
there's incentive to go early decision
at the school of your choice and you
sign something saying if I get in all my
applications are automatically withdrawn
from every other school. Okay, fair trade.
trade.
It's so they maintain total pricing
pressure because Syracuse
finds out that they're not going to be
able to fill their class. So they go out
and they start offering financial aid to
people. Hey, hey kid, you got in. If you
pick us, we're going to give you 10, 20,
$30,000 in financial aid next year. And
then the kids who got an early decision,
who committed called and said, we want
this financial aid. And they said,
sorry, you're [ __ ] UNED, you have to
come here. So this is a means of
basically reducing the economic power of
applicants. And also, and you you'll
learn this as if you have kids, every
university happens to raise its prices
almost in near exact lock step. We're
all charging pretty much the same. How
did that happen? Well, we all
communicate with each other. And
wouldn't you know it, when Colombia goes
to 71,300, we go to 71,38.
Do you think that just happened? So it's
all a giant rigged system through
pricing, through financial aid, through
cheap debt, through artificial scarcity,
limiting supply such we can raise prices
faster than inflation such that we can
soak the middle class and transfer money
to corporations and even to my industry
to the faculty and endowments of
universities who whose alumni once they
have degrees love scarcity. Oh my god,
you rejected 90% of the applicants.
Standing ovation, which in my view is
tantamount to the head of a homeless
shelter bragging he or she turned away
nine and 10 applicants last night.
America needs to reject this
exclusionary rejectionist LVMH like
strategy that benefits the incumbents at
the cost of the entrance. But it is it
is a virus that has infected every
component of our society because the
people in charge already have assets. So
they want to see a scarcity mindset
increase the value of their assets and
then they wonder why their daughters are
obese and anxious and single at the age
of 30.
>> Uh yeah well it was a fantastic rant
that I think is really on the mark in
terms of the economics. Okay so looking
at this I think you and I draw every
word out of your mouth is a banger for
me. Uh but we draw I think different
conclusions about what you do next. So
when I hear all of that, I think, okay,
we need to shrink the size of
government. Um, as a history buff,
looking at what America did at its
founding, it was far more like if you
can make it here, you can make it
anywhere because we don't have all the
social safety nets that we have uh
today. Not by a long shot. When you look
at just how much more the government
spends now since COVID than it did in
2019, huge. And so I just go, yeah, I
get the impulse to tax and I don't I am
very much a believer in Ray Dalio's
beautiful deleveraging. So there's going
to absolutely be higher taxes. There's
going to be um wealth redistribution,
but they have to be done so specifically
to understand both the economic and the
psychological impact. That's the part
that I don't think people are talking
about. Ultimately, I think the goal
should be to reduce the size of
government for the reason that you said
when the public sector does things, they
tend to create more problems than they solve.
solve.
So, when I look at this and I see, okay,
you've got the rise of socialism over
here on the left.
>> Um, you've got all kinds of cronyism
going everywhere that's creating all of
these different problems. I don't see
that adding more government is going to
be the solve. It's how do we dissolve
some of these areas that have their
grips on things in a way that does not
benefit the middle class. Um why does
that take seem out of step with the
direction you want to go?
>> I don't think it is. I just think
there's some nuances. There's there's
then overlap where we agree and probably
where we disagree. So when you talk
about government, size of government,
there's two things. There's employment
size of government and then there's
spending. So if you look at state and
local government, I think employment has
actually flatted down over the last 30
or 40 years. So it's not like it's not
like the payroll the pay the payrolls of
state and local government has has
surged. If you look at spending, it's
gone apeshit. And both Democrats and
Republicans, the only thing that's
bipartisan is reckless spending. You
know, it's like, okay, Republicans want
more in defense and and tax cuts, and
Democrats want more social programs. And
they all got together and say, I know,
let's do both. And absolutely hamstring
and inhibit uh future generations with
just unsustainable, irresponsible levels
of debt. Now, the question is, all
right, how do you close the gap? If
we're a household, if US was a
household, it makes 50,000 a year in tax
receipts. It spends 70 and it has
household debt of 370,000 of which when
the parents die after going to Cabo
every weekend on their kids's credit
card, the kid get gets to inherit the
debt. The debt doesn't die with the
parents. And there's a lot of issues
here. One, um Washington is a cross
between the Golden Girls and the land of
the dead. If twothirds of Congress is
going to be dead in 25 years, do they
really care about the deficit or climate
change? Do they do they really want to
build a high-speed train network that
they're going to be in a wheelchair to
cut the ribbon on? So, we need younger
people who think more long term. In
addition, we have an obsession with I
think we should mean test and raise all
roads lead to the same place and that is
entitlements. If you want to have a
serious conversation around reducing
government spending, we can Doge tried
to cut what was it? They went to cut a
trillion dollars. It ends up that almost
everyone they've fired, they've decided
they need to hire back. Like it ends up
that you need people to land your
planes. It ends up that the people
actually, you know, protecting parks
that government I think government is
the most underestimated group of
professionals in history. I I I mean I I
work a lot with government officials.
These are the brightest people I've ever
met making $180,000. It could be working
at Meta at a million, but instead decide
to focus on cyber security defense for
our nation. So I think generally
speaking Americans don't have an
appreciation for how talented our
government is until we put village
idiots in charge as we're doing right
now. Two, it's not the tax tax rates,
it's a tax code. And that is
there's $760 billion a year that is owed
but not collected. And the biggest tax
cut in history wasn't capital gains or
the tax cut of 2017. It was neutering
the IRS. Because as someone who has a
very complicated tax uh filing, I can
tell you that the general incentives are
don't don't hide capital. Don't do
anything illegal, but be as aggressive
as possible because they don't have the
staffing to come after you and audit
you. They do have the staffing to audit
someone making $60,000 a year. Their
audit can be done by AI and it's pretty
it's pretty straightforward when they're
lying. But if you're somebody who has
limited partnerships, properties all
over the world, different sources of
income, different shell companies, they
do not have when you neuter the budget
of the IRS, the people the manpower to
come after you. $760 billion a year in
uncollected taxes that are owed. I'm not
talking about intimidating people. I'm
talking about the taxes that are owed
and need to be collected. Two, all roads
lead to the same place, and that is
healthcare. We pay $13,000 a year per
capita for health care. The rest of the
G7 pay 6,500 in exchange for paying
double. We die sooner. We're more obese.
We're more anxious. If you're in the top
10%, you have the best healthcare in the
world. If you're in the bottom 90, it
means if your wife is diagnosed with
lung cancer, it also probably means
you're going bankrupt. 40% of US
households have medical debt. I believe
that we need to take Medicare, which
actually people are pretty satisfied
with, and delivers at a decently
economic basis, a pretty ine pretty
efficient basis, lower it by two years a
year for 10 years till it's 45 and up,
which is about 3/4 of all health care
because 55 cents, 45 cents on the dollar
of health insurance goes to profits and
administration. And we need to get that
$13,000 down to 10,000, then down to 9,
and then ideally with our scale and our
innovation back to where the other G6
nations are. If we can produce every
single product for the same or less
money than the other G6, why are not we
producing healthcare at the same rate?
If you take 350 million people times
$6,500 per capita in savings over the
next 10 or 20 years, which America
doesn't like to think because we only
get reelected every 24 months, boom, you
have your $2 trillion in savings. We
need the tax code to be enforced and we
need to really go after healthare and we
need to stop transferring money from
young to old. We're obsessed with tax
codes. We're obsessed with demonizing
billionaires. You know, Bernie Sanders
and Elizabeth Warren want to lambass
billionaires. They're each worth tens of
millions of dollars. I get it. The tax
code should have an alternative minimum
tax on anyone making over $10 million.
But that's not the problem. The problem
is enforcing the tax code and attacking
healthcare. if we get really serious
about fiscal responsibility. But the
notion that we continue to pay seven we
continue to spend $7 trillion a year on
5 trillion in receipts is so morally
bankrupt. I'm in the club doing
champagne and cocaine and the closest my
kids get is they get to throw their
credit card in so I can swipe it again
so I can now do Rails Academy. What is
going on here is entirely morally
corrupt and my generation needs to pay
more taxes. I'm not saying, you know, I
don't want to demonize billionaires. I
want Elon Musk to make a trillion
dollars. I want him to be taxed 60 or
70% on it because the bottom line is
it's not going to make him any happier
if he makes 800 billion versus 400
billion. I want the estate tax exemption
lowered from 30 million to 1 million. If
your kid inherits 7 million versus 9
million, no, happier. And my
understanding is once you're dead, you
don't really sense whether you're
happier or not happier. There are common
sense solves to our fiscal problems. We
just have DC that has been washed over
by money. There's regulatory capture and
we have old people voting themselves
more money who don't want to think long
term about the fiscal health of future
generations. We'll get right back to the
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and give something people will actually
wear. And now, let's get back to the
show. Again, a lot of things that I
think are really on the money. I'm going
to ultra simplify that. Tell me if you
think that this captures the sense of
it. So, uh, you got to get serious about
talking about the spending problem.
Spending problem is entirely
entitlements. Uh, then you've got to
find an efficient way to get more tax
revenue um by taxing the wealthy. I
don't I didn't hear anything of what you
just said about going in a Nordic style
where we just tax the hell out of
everybody. Um, is that one two punch?
Obviously a gross oversimplification,
but it'll give us a jumping off point.
>> I I think Yeah, I think that's strong.
And just some nuance around the taxation.
taxation.
I bet you're where you live in LA.
>> Yeah. I'm going to assume you make a
very good living. You know who gets most
screwed in our tax code? We like the
populist argument of the the poor paying
too much in taxes, the middle class, and
the rich aren't paying any taxes.
[ __ ] The rich are paying a
disproportionate. The top 10% pay 80% of
federal income taxes. The people who get
most screwed in our tax system are what
I call the workh horses. I don't know
much about you, but I'm going to I'm
going to stereotype you as being in the
workhorse. A workhorse,
uh, a couple played by the rules, got
great certification, work their asses
off. Mom's a baller at a law firm. She
makes $1.2 million as a partner. Dad is
a podcaster making 600 grand a year.
They make $1.8 million. They live in a
blue state, which is probably where you
need to live to have these types of
professions, this type of income. they
are probably paying 50% in tax rates.
Now, if dad starts a podcast network and
pours all of his money and can afford to
reinvest in the company and then he
incorporates the company and it gets
bought by Sirius or Wondery or Time
Warner and he gets a $30 million cash
hit, his tax rate drops dramatically.
Right? So the workh horses, the people
making hundreds of thousands pay too
much taxes. When I was when I was in my
30s and 40s making hundreds of thousands
of dollars, I was paying 30 something
40ome% tax rate. Now that I'm making
millions, some years tens of millions,
my tax rate and the fact that I'm mobile
now because I have the money and I
relocated to Florida, my tax rate has
plummeted to kind of the high teens.
That makes no sense. So when people hear
the rich are not paying their fair
share, no actually the rich are probably
paying more than their fair share if we
enforce the tax code, it's the super
rich that are getting away with murder.
We've decided if you get the gold medal,
you get the bronze and the silver. The
26 wealthiest families in America pay an
average tax rate of 6% a year.
Corporations are paying their lowest tax
rate since 1939,
right? And it's not made them any more
productive. So I think there's common
sense strategies. Let's go back to the
tax error of that great socialist Ronald
Reagan. Have the same tax rate on
current income as capital gains. Take
corporate tax rates back up AMT of say
40% if you make more than a h 100red
million in profits. If you're making
more than $10 million in current income,
uh alternative minimum tax of 40%, the
tax code's gone from 400 pages to 4,000.
Those incremental 3600 pages are
basically that screw the middle class.
There are so many goodies for people in
my income class. I start a company, I
sell it. Somebody called 1202. First 10
million is taxfree. What does that make
any sense? Oh, but we need productive
people to start businesses. I've started
nine businesses. If you held a gun to my
head, I couldn't tell you what the taxes
were when I started the business. That's
not where you started business because
of tax advantages. But oh, we want VCs
and institutional investors to get this
giant loophole where if I invest two or
$3 million in one of my startups and it
sells first 20 or 30 million, 10 times
the basis or is it know it's 10 times
the basis or now it's 15 million are
totally tax-free. What you want in an
increase in taxes is the least taxing
taxes possible.
And there's a lot. One of my
intellectual role models, an Israeli
American psychologist named Daniel
Conaman, ton of studies on happiness.
Money can't buy you happiness. [ __ ]
Absolutely correlation between money and
happiness. Middle- inome people happier
than lower. Upper income happier than
middle. But once you hit a certain
income level, no incremental happiness.
Billionaires are no happier than
millionaires. There's a myth that
they're less happy. That's not true
either. Once you get above a certain
number, no incremental happiness. Which
says to me we should have an alternative
minimum tax of 40 or 50% on anyone say
over $10 million. Corporations
>> can pay a higher tax rate. Now we
haven't seen a burst in productivity. We
have seen an increase in stock prices
because of more earnings which again
accredes to wait for it the top 10% who
own 80% of stocks. So, one, uh,
alternative minimum tax above a big
number, and two, lower the we're about
to see a transfer of wealth of 120 120
trillion, I think, in the next 30 years
of wealth. Lower the state exemption
from 30 million to 1 million. If your
kids inherit 7 million instead of 9, not
going to change their life or their
happiness. And as far as I know, you're
going to be dead, so you're not going to
care. But the notion that we build need
to build dynastic wealth with out of
control tax exemptions and estate tax
that's anti-American. We're not supposed
to be dynasties here. So alternative
minimum tax for corporations and
exceptionally wealthy people. Reduce
reduce the um estate tax exemption from
30 million to 1 million and means and
age gate. Raise the age on social
security and means test social security.
And also above a certain point, you pay
for your own health care. Full stop. And
that turns those people into consumers
who actually say, "How much is this MRI
costing?" And they shop around. I think
all of these things are common sense
solutions to bring fiscal sanity back
into the system.
>> Okay. So, I certainly have an allergic
reaction to the idea of um taxing more.
you've said a lot of very true and very
uh valuable things about I did a whole
deep dive on who actually pays taxes in
America. You've covered it very well. Um
so you have the wealthy paying a very
disproportionate amount. Um there is a
psychological impact though when you
start. So I uh in my best years am north
of 50% in my tax bracket. Yep. Uh it
there's something about that
psychologically that is very difficult
to swallow. Um and if and I think you
said something about I know you've said
this before. I don't I can't remember if
you said it today or not, but the idea
that if I knew that the money was being
spent efficiently, I would have a lot
less problem being taxed. Like if I'm
living somewhere and I feel like, oh,
it's worth it. My tax dollars are being
used incredibly well. This is wonderful.
Um yeah, you have a much easier time
stroking the check. But when and this is
me mapping my own beliefs not trying to
put these words in your mouth but when I
look at the the
making a distinction between number of
people working in the government and the
amount that they spend to me does not
change the dynamic of the more money
that they have and are spending we're
getting a worse and worse result. So
perfectly willing to buy that the people
in the government are amazing, but
there's something about the way that the
policies are enacted that end up not um
yielding the result that we would see
from that fish competition that you
talked about in the private market. So
that's my bias. So I'm I am opposed to
raising taxes long-term
unless we can see that the government
itself can become efficient. For me, I
will peg that at the ability to balance
the budget.
>> And the one immutable truth that you put
your finger on is that both the
Republicans and the Democrats are just
hellbent to spend, spend, spend because
in a popul well, in any moment that's
how you get elected, but it gets way
worse in a populist moment. So, what do
you see as the mechanism that pulls us
back out of this? Because I don't see
the government getting any more
efficient. There is a psychological
break that people will have. So the more
they raise taxes, people are going to
move even if they have to leave America.
I think that there is a point where the
taxes become so ownorous that people
will move. And so when I look out at it
and and hopefully you can back me off of
this black pill ledge here. When I look
out at it, I'm like, "Oh, the only thing
that's going to make us actually change
the direction, which again I peg is a
debt and deficit problem. The only thing
that will move us off of that that I
believe is the thing that's hollowing
out the middle class is to have so much pain
pain
>> that we will finally be forced to backtrack.
backtrack.
>> Do you see any other way other than
economic collapse, a true hot civil war,
revolution, something like that that
will actually begin moving us in the
other direction?
>> So, a lot there. So, so first off, um I
think my t not this year, but last year
my tax rate was 17%. Yours was 52. Does
that seem fair to you?
>> Um it it depends. It No, we'll take the
short answer.
>> I made, you know,
I'm always accused of bragging about my
wealth and it's true because I'm
insecure, but I my guess is I I don't
know what you made. I I made an
exceptional amount of money last year.
My tax rate was 17%. It sounds like
yours was 52. Tell me how that's in any
way far.
>> Well, the quick breakdown would be the
year that I made the most money, my tax
rate was much lower and uh I am
perfectly willing to make the exchange
for long-term capital gains. So, capital
gains not being a tax, um, I certainly
do not know the tax as well as I know
some other basic economic principles,
but I will say that when I was building
the company and taking insane risks with
my entire livelihood, everything that we
owned, uh, that felt like a good, okay,
well, if I can get it across the finish
line, at least I'm not going to be
paying that same 50 plus% tax rate. that
would have been a bitter pill to swallow
when you risk so much. Um, so yeah,
anyway, to me there is nuance there
where I've lived both. I've had a much
lower tax rate. I don't know if I've
ever been in the teens, but I've
certainly been in the 20s. Um, and I was
like, cool. Yes, this was worth all the
sacrifice, all the risk. On a more
mainstream year where I'm just making,
by average person standards, I'm making
a ton of money. Um, I accept that I'm
going to be paying ordinary income and
it is what it is. I would just so
budgets and taxes are a reflection of
our values and our values right now uh
state the following that we think sweat
is less noble than money that when money
makes money when when you make money
from buying a house selling stocks that
that money is more noble and we should
tax at a lower rate than when someone
shows up to a car wash or someone works
really hard as a podcaster. I think we
should go back to Reagan. I think there
should be one tax rate. And I think if
you enforced the tax code and didn't
have all of these loopholes, right, buy
a plane, you get to write it all off in
the first year. You don't even have to
capitalize. When you buy office
furniture for your podcast studio, you
have to capitalize and expense it over
seven years. But someone who buys a
Gulfream gets to write off the entire
thing in year one. That to me is nothing
but capture by the wealthiest.1%.
So, I would like I think you could lower
taxes as long as everyone paid them and
you got rid of all these loopholes.
That's why I like the AMT going
>> going after specific loopholes. There's
too many. There are more lobbyists,
full-time lobbyists working for Amazon
full-time living in DC than there are
sitting US senators. And whoever raises
the most money 93% of the time wins the
election. So the game is rigged for
whoever is willing to throw most money
to maintain their their their private
equity tax loophole where for some
reason private equity investments are
taxed at long-term capital gains even
though it's just a commission. If I sell
a Subaru as a car salesman, the
commission is taxed at a higher rate
than if I find an investment and use
other people's capital to make the
investment and I get a commission as a
private equity general partner and then
for some reason I get long-term capital
gains on that. That is a loophole
sponsored by the lobbyists hired in
Washington by the private equity
industry and then they get Kristen
Cinema to basically hold up the
infrastructure bill unless they strip
that, you know, maintain that tax. So,
I'm for I think you could lower taxes
and I don't see any reason why capital
gains taxes should be lowered are more
honorable than the money that sweat
makes. I want people to work. I'm
worried about young men not feeling the
incentive to actually
work. the the notion of state that's
federal. I actually believe federal
taxes for the most part are a pretty
good deal. Uh I do believe we're
spending too much money on our seniors,
which is again the third rail. I'm a
terrible person. This is the wealthiest
generation in history. Nana and pop, if
you can't upgrade from Carnival to
Crystal Cruises, I'm okay with that. I
don't see why young people are
continuing to transfer money this much
money to old people. Do we eliminate
social security? No. But if there you
and I should not get social security. I
it just I I don't I don't see any reason
why we should get it. So go after entitlements
entitlements
uh lower taxes but enforce them. And
then with respect to states, I like
competition. I like the idea that at
some point Tom may say, "You know what?
I've had it. I'm moving to Texas and I'm
going to build my podcast studio in
Austin. And the fact that most states
have to balance their budget, they're
enforced. They there's a certain level
of fiscal responsibility enforced on
them. They can't rack up enormous deficits,
deficits,
uh, at least not directly. And they can
piece out. I left New York. Now, the
reason I left New York was cuz my kid
didn't get into preschool, but at some
point I might have left because of the
taxes. I think it's good that states
compete with one another.
>> Yeah, agreed. Uh so I think some of this
gets solved. I think you're right. I
think we should I think governments
should be forced to compete and you know
offer a good service. I come at
government from a little bit of a
different place than you because I got a
I live I grew up in California. I grew
up in Los Angeles where you are now. I
got assisted lunch. I got PEL grants. I
got into UCLA because it had a 74%
admissions rate because the government
spent a lot of money. Edmund Pat Brown
spent a ton of money of taxpayer monies
on building a lot of seats in this
amazing institution called the
University of California. So I feel a
certain gratitude and affinity and feel
like I've gotten a great deal from the
federal government. I think some states
I think California is you know I think
it's good that Texas is saying to
Californians come here you don't have to
pay any state tax because I think it
forces the governor and the people there
to take on unions take on out of control
spending. I think at some point if
enough people leave New York, they're
going to figure out a way not to spend a
billion dollars a mile. Do you we spend
seven times more per mile on subways in
New York than they spend in Paris, which
isn't known as a very efficient economy.
So there is I think competition is a is
an answer. And I think I I would like to
think that before we get to the
revolution part of the program, they
voters will get their heads out of their
asses and maybe vote for some people
that are honest with them and say,
"Folks, do we need to raise taxes or
lower government spending?" The answer
is yes. And I'm not going to give you
quick solutions here. I'm not going to
try and buy your votes. I'm going to
have to means test and raise the age or
eligibility for Social Security. I'm
going to nationalize health care, which
every the healthcare industrial complex
is going to spend billions of dollars
trying to convince you I'm a pedophile
or addicting diet diet pills to try and
make sure I don't get into Washington.
But at some point, I'd like to think the
voters are ready for an adult
conversation and say, "Okay, I am down
with figuring out a way. We can't just
pay off the deficit. We got to go back
to a smaller deficit, lower it, have a
few surplus years such that the economy
continues to grow and at some point
instead of it being 150% of our GDP, it
goes down to 70 or 80, which is
sustainable. I'd like to think at some
point the populace and voters are ready
for an adult conversation and we'll
we'll vote those leaders in. Hasn't
happened yet, but we used to vote those
people in in the ' 50s, '60s7. Bill
Clinton had a budget surplus. you know,
the voters that voted him in. I think
there's still some of those out there.
You know, a lot of Republicans had not a
lot, but a few had budget deficits uh
surpluses post World War II. Does it
have to get to a point where I mean, you
you could argue that when farmers are
lining up at food banks who 80% of whom
voted for Trump, they're probably going
to vote differently in the next
election. So, I don't know. You know,
I'd like to think that the democracy,
our democracy works pretty well. The
problem with our democracy is the pendul
like they say it's visually impossible
to see a pendulum at the exact bottom.
Like you can never actually frame it at
its exact bottom.
American politics seem incapable because
of gerrymandering to ever be at a center
point. It's either rent control and tax
the rich and UBI or it's it's cut it's
cut taxes and spend more and have
massive deficits.
And I I don't even know how you describe
the Trump administration is a lot more
socialist than what mom Donnie is
proposing. Socialism is the means of
control is controlled by the state.
golden share in US Steel because Donald
Trump's so good at bankrupting casinos
he should run a steel company. Taking an
investment in Intel, which will favor
that one chip company over others.
Deciding who should get to own Tik Tok
and doing it out to his Republican
friends. That is pure unadulterated socialism.
socialism.
So, you know, look who asked for this?
Voters asked for this.
Politicians are always afraid to say,
"Get your head out of your ass. You
voted for this." Oh, maybe you thought
you were voting for, you know, racism,
not tariffs, farmers. But this is what
you got. The Dian democracy is working.
Are you ready for an adult conversation? [snorts]
[snorts]
>> Okay. I think uh ready for the adult
conversation is a little optimistic of
you, but let us say that people are.
>> You think the answer is squarely no? Uh,
dude, I really I I have run every mental
scenario I know based on the way the
architecture of the human mind. I just
don't see it. History tells me that we
run into the wall. Uh, but nonetheless,
I do think that it's worth talking
through what that reversal would look
like. So, um, talk to me about Trump.
Give me a report card. So, people may
have thought they were voting for one
thing. What have they actually gotten? I
think many people, certainly people on
the right, are going to be surprised to
hear you say that Trump is more
socialist than mom Donnie. Um, so give
us the the litany of receipts there.
What is Trump getting wrong? Certainly.
Uh, and then if you think that he's
gotten anything right, I'll take that as well.
well.
>> Trump's instincts are often very strong.
It's just his execution. I think he
recognized before other people the uh
asymmetric trade relationship with
China. I think you got to give him
credit for that. I thought I think they
were taking advantage of us, stealing
our IP and then selling back selling it
back to us less expensive and gutting
our manufacturing sector. I think he saw
that. Uh I think that he saw immigration as
as
a big problem. You know, the vice
president, her big thing was supposed to
be enforcing the border. She didn't do a
great job. when a quarter of a million
people can come over in December of 23
by just raising their hand and saying asylum,
asylum,
>> you know, they had to say asylum and
then boom, they were in, that's a
problem. So, I think he recognized
immigration. I think his messaging
around affordability was the right
message. Um, I would argue that the
level of corruption we have seen under
the Trump administration is
unprecedented in history in the West.
you know, cramming launching a crypto
coin, a memecoin the Friday before his
inauguration under the cover of dark
such that someone could put in 10
million bucks into that thing and then
say, "Please stop shipping arms to
Ukraine and we would never know that
that happened." I think overrunning
co-equal branches of government, just
basically ignoring Congress.
Um, you know, I could go sending in a
mass secret police to terrorize cities
and people who've been here for 20 or 30
years when he could just show up with a
clipboard and say, "Hi, car wash. You
have social security filings for these
people. I need proof of their
documentation or I'm going to find you
$10,000 a day."
We have turned a blind eye to the
immigration problem for 40 years.
Because the sad truth of or the
uncomfortable truth about immigration is
that people say it's the secret sauce of
America. Okay, that's nice. That's a
Hallmark commercial and part of that is
true. But the most profitable part of
immigration is illegal immigration
because they come across the border when
our crops are coming due or grandma
needs our ass wiped or we want cheap
food at a restaurant and then when the
jobs dry up, they don't go on
unemployment. They don't collect social
security. They melt back to their
countries. They usually don't stick
around longer to cause to they they pay
social security taxes, but they usually
don't get them. They commit crimes at a
lower rate than nativeborn citizens.
They don't call 911 or use the police.
So, we have turned a blind eye to
illegal immigration for 40 years on
purpose. Has it gotten out of control?
Yes. Has it created real structural
problems in the US? Yes. Should we have
borders? Yes. He was good at leveraging
that and people's frustration,
especially in border states. And also a
lot of young struggling men like to
blame women for their romantic problems
and immigrants for their economic
problems. He tapped into that. He flew
right into the manosphere. Genius
political strategy focusing on
affordability, the asymmetric trade
relationship with China. The implementation,
implementation,
it's as if he went to Chad GPT and said,
"I want to reduce the prosperity of
America elegantly and consistently." And
it would come back and say, "I know tariffs.
tariffs.
I know scare the best and brightest PhD
students from coming to the US. I know
reduce the greatest ROI investment in
history, investing money through our
great academic institutions that produce
medical and technological breakthroughs.
I know make people feel bad about
America by showing these horrific videos
of people who are so ashamed of what
they're doing. It's so their activity is
so depraved and vile they have to wear
masks. And people say, "Well, they could
be docks." judges put mob bosses in
prisons. They don't wear masks.
So, some of his political instincts, I
think, are correct. I think he's a great campaigner.
campaigner.
I would argue that the economic policies
of America right now, putting drunks in
charge of the Department of Defense,
putting conspiracy theorists who believe
that vaccines cause autism in charge of
our health and human services. I mean, I
feel like this is a literally a clown
car running the nation right now. It's a
corrupt crime family. All right. And the
even worse news is Michael is running
the grift and Fredo is running the
government. I wish they brought half the
competence to their grift that they're
bringing to the government, trolling
around the Gulf and and not going to the
democracies, Turkey and Israel, because
they know they can't give you a plane or
a golf course or a building. Only going
to the nations that are comfortable
saying, "Hey, take this $400 million
plane." Wink wink. Oh, and then, oh,
what do you know? You're going to what?
You're going to give us Article 5 NATO
protection for free? We basically just
give Qatar NATO protection, a security
guarantee. Oh, and he accepted a $400
million plane a few months before. I
mean, that's just not that erodess the
very fabric of what it means to be
American. And it hurts us. It hurts our
reputation around the world. It makes us
much weaker. Let's start bombing fishing
boats that would take 20 stops to refuel
and get to Miami in a nation where
there's no evidence there is no fentanyl
while we let Ukraine fall.
I mean the the poor decisionmaking here,
the incompetence and the corruption are
noxious. They're stifling.
The optimism is that we have been in
worse places than this before. Americans
are narcissists and we always tend to
think this is the worst thing ever. We
were interning Japanese families in
camps because they were Japanese. Slave
owners used to be the most powerful
political force in America. We opened
fire on veterans marching in front of
the White House after the Great
Depression protesting economic
conditions. We have been in worse places
before and America has come back
stronger. And I believe we are going to
come back stronger here. So yeah, I do
think Trump gets some stuff right. I
think he has good instincts around
certain things. I think he's an amazing
campaigner. He is a stain on the
American experience.
>> Now, do you think this is a great man
theory of history where he just brought
these things randomly got elected or is
he a symptom of something that the
populace is going through?
>> Well, okay. So, I want to acknowledge
I'm a hammer and everything I see is a
nail. I think the reason we elected an
insurrectionist, I focus a lot on the
struggles of young men. And young men
are doing worse than are fallen further
faster than any cohort in American
history. Four times as likely to kill
themselves, three times as likely to be
homeless and addicted.
And what happened was he recognized this
and he flew right into the manosphere.
As Vice President Harris is going on
MSNBC and CNN, he went on Rogan, Andrew
Schultz, TheoN,
Crypto, World Wrestling Federation,
Rockets. He went right into his campaign
riaked of testosterone because
because
if you look at the three groups that
pivoted hardest from blue to red 2020 to
2024 in order, one was Latinos. That
says nothing. We should stop tracking
them as a group. Mexican-Americans in
Southern California have much different
priorities than Cubanameans in Florida.
It's stupid to make any reductive
generalizations about the Latino
community. Number two, hardest pivot
people under the age of 30. They're not
doing well. When you're not doing well,
you don't want to parse nuance. You just
want different, even if it means chaos.
And then the most interesting thing is
the third group that pivoted hardest was
45 to 64 year old women. And my thesis,
Tom, is that's their mothers. And that
is if your son is in the basement
playing video games and vaping, you
don't give a [ __ ] about territorial
sovereignty in Ukraine or transgender
rights. You just want change. So, and
also what we don't like to admit is
there are a lot of women in America who
will vote for who they perceive as being
in the best interest of their husbands
and sons. We talk about the patriarchy,
men versus women. Women's rights were
supposed to be the defining issue of
this election. It did not show up. 54%
of white women voted for Trump. So my
sense is if we want to save off, if we
want things to be better in America, if
I were to do anything, it would be
economic programs that lift young people
up. And just as the economic bludgeoning
of young people in America has
disproportionately hurt young men who
are disproportionately evaluated on
their economic viability, lifting young
people up economically will have a
disproportionately positive effect on
young men. I get it. I just wrote a book
called Notes on Being a Man. I get
attacked by all these therapists. By the
way, 80% of therapists are women. It's
always work on yourself. Therapy is the
answer for everything. And I want to be
clear, if you struggle with mental
illness or have mental illness in your
family or you can afford it, have at it.
I I believe it's hugely beneficial. But
this dogma online, if if therapy solves
all problems, you know what would be the
best therapy in America? 8 million homes
in 10 years.
$25 an hour minimum wage, universal
child care, eliminate 40% of the medical
debt on households. You know what makes
you mentally [ __ ] stressed out? When
you can't afford your 16-year-old's root
canal. When you don't make enough money
to pay your rent. So, while I'm a big
fan of blood pressure medication and
statins and diabetes medication, here's
an idea. Get everyone working out first and see if we can avoid that.
and see if we can avoid that. So I think the mental health in America
So I think the mental health in America I think the the stress young people feel
I think the the stress young people feel feel the anxiety they feel is nothing
feel the anxiety they feel is nothing no amount of mental health or therapy is
no amount of mental health or therapy is going to replace economic procarity
going to replace economic procarity and
and mental I want to detonate a nuclear bomb
mental I want to detonate a nuclear bomb of mental of therapy called minimum
of mental of therapy called minimum massive increase in minimum wage tax
massive increase in minimum wage tax holiday for people under the age of 30
holiday for people under the age of 30 massive explosion in new home
massive explosion in new home construction, more third places, more
construction, more third places, more mating opportunities for people to meet,
mating opportunities for people to meet, uh, universal child care, dignity
uh, universal child care, dignity around, lower the cost of education
around, lower the cost of education through competition, and then the three
through competition, and then the three per 10,000 people who are actually
per 10,000 people who are actually therapists
therapists won't need to go on TikTok and say that
won't need to go on TikTok and say that therapy is the only solve for our
therapy is the only solve for our issues. I'm a little triggered by
issues. I'm a little triggered by therapists right now, as you can see. I
therapists right now, as you can see. I see that. I I like it to be honest. I
see that. I I like it to be honest. I think that there's a lot of truth in
think that there's a lot of truth in that. Um I want to get explicit though
that. Um I want to get explicit though about why exactly you consider those
about why exactly you consider those things therapy especially for young men.
things therapy especially for young men. I feel like and this is one of the
I feel like and this is one of the questions I wanted to ask you. I feel
questions I wanted to ask you. I feel like you're dancing around there sort of
like you're dancing around there sort of an archetypal beneficial male path. not
an archetypal beneficial male path. not the only I I do not think you think that
the only I I do not think you think that and I'm not certainly not trying to put
and I'm not certainly not trying to put those words in your mouth, but that
those words in your mouth, but that there is an archetypal path that nah,
there is an archetypal path that nah, I've never met the kid, never going to
I've never met the kid, never going to meet the kid, don't know anything about
meet the kid, don't know anything about him, but if he were to follow this kind
him, but if he were to follow this kind of path, uh, we might be in better
of path, uh, we might be in better shape. Um, one, is that accurate? And
shape. Um, one, is that accurate? And two, if so, what is that archetypal
two, if so, what is that archetypal path?
path? >> Yeah. Look, so I want to be clear, I'm
>> Yeah. Look, so I want to be clear, I'm guilty of projecting what's worked for
guilty of projecting what's worked for me. I got economically secure. I worked
me. I got economically secure. I worked really hard. But I got the skills, the
really hard. But I got the skills, the certification, took the risks. I also
certification, took the risks. I also had unfair advantage being born a white
had unfair advantage being born a white heterosexual male in the 60s.
heterosexual male in the 60s. And then I found I've had great
And then I found I've had great relationships, great friends. So I feel
relationships, great friends. So I feel like money and relationships are kind of
like money and relationships are kind of the solve. And I think some legitimate
the solve. And I think some legitimate feedback is Scott, winning capitalism
feedback is Scott, winning capitalism and having a romantic partner sometimes
and having a romantic partner sometimes isn't the end all beall for everybody.
isn't the end all beall for everybody. That some people do there's different
That some people do there's different paths for different people. I get it. So
paths for different people. I get it. So I, you know, I understand that and also
I, you know, I understand that and also we need to figure out a way to recognize
we need to figure out a way to recognize more of the emotional labor that women
more of the emotional labor that women have been expected to give around
have been expected to give around caregiving and start to recognize that a
caregiving and start to recognize that a form of masculinity and surplus values
form of masculinity and surplus values when men do that. So I think that
when men do that. So I think that society needs some
society needs some what I'll call nuance and calibration
what I'll call nuance and calibration and manicuring.
and manicuring. And now let's talk about the world we
And now let's talk about the world we live in. 75% of women say economic
live in. 75% of women say economic viability is important in a mate. Only
viability is important in a mate. Only 25% of women. The likelihood of divorce
25% of women. The likelihood of divorce does not increase when a woman gets
does not increase when a woman gets fired or her income goes down. When the
fired or her income goes down. When the female in the relationship is now earns
female in the relationship is now earns more man money than the man, the
more man money than the man, the likelihood of divorce doubles and the
likelihood of divorce doubles and the use of of of erectile dysfunction drugs
use of of of erectile dysfunction drugs triples. Beyonce could work at
triples. Beyonce could work at McDonald's and marry Jay-Z. The opposite
McDonald's and marry Jay-Z. The opposite is not true. And I don't care how many
is not true. And I don't care how many subscriptions to the Atlantic or the New
subscriptions to the Atlantic or the New York Times you have. That's not going to
York Times you have. That's not going to change in a few years. And I get all I
change in a few years. And I get all I I'll give you an example that triggers a
I'll give you an example that triggers a lot of people. I tell my sons when
lot of people. I tell my sons when you're in the company of a woman, you
you're in the company of a woman, you pay for everything. What? What?
pay for everything. What? What? You you you that's the patriarchy. You
You you you that's the patriarchy. You do not own women. You do not you should
do not own women. You do not you should not have expectations from them. They
not have expectations from them. They are not your sexual. Women aren't
are not your sexual. Women aren't responsible for servicing men. Men's
responsible for servicing men. Men's problems aren't women's fault. I Women
problems aren't women's fault. I Women entering the workforce probably won
entering the workforce probably won World War II for us. It's the only
World War II for us. It's the only reason we're not a second rate power to
reason we're not a second rate power to China. Women making a lot of money is
China. Women making a lot of money is wonderful. We should do nothing to get
wonderful. We should do nothing to get in the way of that. I had a single
in the way of that. I had a single immigrant mother who lived and died as
immigrant mother who lived and died as secretary. It did not work out for her
secretary. It did not work out for her with my father, other men.
with my father, other men. But the biggest strain in our life was
But the biggest strain in our life was she didn't have a lot of economic
she didn't have a lot of economic opportunity. If you were a woman without
opportunity. If you were a woman without a college degree back in the 70s, you
a college degree back in the 70s, you could be either a travel agent or a real
could be either a travel agent or a real estate broker. You couldn't even be or
estate broker. You couldn't even be or secretary. You couldn't even be a
secretary. You couldn't even be a teacher. You had to have a a college
teacher. You had to have a a college degree. That was the biggest strain in
degree. That was the biggest strain in our life. So, I'm all for the economic
our life. So, I'm all for the economic liberation of women. A lot of women are
liberation of women. A lot of women are doing the math. Threearters of divorce
doing the math. Threearters of divorce filings from women because they wake up
filings from women because they wake up and go, "Okay, I'm ascending
and go, "Okay, I'm ascending economically." And boss, you're
economically." And boss, you're flatlining around domestic and emotional
flatlining around domestic and emotional logistical contribution in the home. I'm
logistical contribution in the home. I'm out. I get it. I get it. And I put a lot
out. I get it. I get it. And I put a lot of pressure on young men who have more
of pressure on young men who have more agency than they think to raise their
agency than they think to raise their game. And then pressure on people our
game. And then pressure on people our age to join big brothers. Three times as
age to join big brothers. Three times as many women joining big sisters as big
many women joining big sisters as big brothers. Men our age need to step step
brothers. Men our age need to step step step up. We need more economic programs
step up. We need more economic programs that put money in people's pockets. I
that put money in people's pockets. I genuinely believe that young people
genuinely believe that young people having more economic opportunity, more
having more economic opportunity, more third places to meet and demonstrate
third places to meet and demonstrate excellence to each other and establish
excellence to each other and establish more friendships, more uh romantic
more friendships, more uh romantic relationships and then policies that
relationships and then policies that regulate big tech such that they don't
regulate big tech such that they don't have an economic incentive to sequester
have an economic incentive to sequester young men from their relationships from
young men from their relationships from work, from school with their more dopah
work, from school with their more dopah hungry, immature brains would solve a
hungry, immature brains would solve a lot of our problems. So, are there
lot of our problems. So, are there different ways to demonstrate
different ways to demonstrate masculinity and be happy? Should you be
masculinity and be happy? Should you be more supportive of your partner who
more supportive of your partner who happens to be better at that money thing
happens to be better at that money thing than you? Absolutely. In the in the
than you? Absolutely. In the in the short and medium run before we become a
short and medium run before we become a more evolved species, I'm here for it.
more evolved species, I'm here for it. I'm here for the world where the man is
I'm here for the world where the man is celebrating in those relationships where
celebrating in those relationships where the man wants to stay home. Until then,
the man wants to stay home. Until then, we have to acknowledge the reality and
we have to acknowledge the reality and that is men are disproportionately
that is men are disproportionately evaluated based on their economic
evaluated based on their economic strength, women on their aesthetics. And
strength, women on their aesthetics. And an economically unviable man feels
an economically unviable man feels really bad about himself and generally
really bad about himself and generally speaking has very little currency in the
speaking has very little currency in the mating market. So where I start is how
mating market. So where I start is how do we create structural changes that
do we create structural changes that maintain the momentum of women? Maintain
maintain the momentum of women? Maintain it. I don't buy this Charlie Kirk [ __ ]
it. I don't buy this Charlie Kirk [ __ ] of of women were sold a bag of goods and
of of women were sold a bag of goods and they were told if they just worked
they were told if they just worked really hard and they end up being
really hard and they end up being partners in law firms and then they're
partners in law firms and then they're miserable and childless. So what's the
miserable and childless. So what's the answer? Have them be broken alone? Of
answer? Have them be broken alone? Of course they should continue to kill it.
course they should continue to kill it. That's great. Good for them. But at the
That's great. Good for them. But at the same time, let's figure out ways that
same time, let's figure out ways that young men, one in seven young men aren't
young men, one in seven young men aren't neats, neither in employment, education,
neats, neither in employment, education, or training. That one in three of them
or training. That one in three of them aren't living at home under the age of
aren't living at home under the age of 25. that one in five of them aren't
25. that one in five of them aren't living at home under the age of 30. What
living at home under the age of 30. What are the programs that do that? Male
are the programs that do that? Male affirmative action. No, I don't want to
affirmative action. No, I don't want to go there. Programs that lift all young
go there. Programs that lift all young people up. Best thing for men, universal
people up. Best thing for men, universal child care that takes an economic strain
child care that takes an economic strain off of young families. More college
off of young families. More college freshman seats such that we can get more
freshman seats such that we can get more gay kids, more Republican white kids,
gay kids, more Republican white kids, more men, more women in college, which
more men, more women in college, which still is a fantastic upward lubricant.
still is a fantastic upward lubricant. $25 an hour minimum wage. give people
$25 an hour minimum wage. give people incentive to work and that would not
incentive to work and that would not hurt us. If productivity, if minimum
hurt us. If productivity, if minimum wage kept pace with productivity and
wage kept pace with productivity and inflation, it'd be 23 bucks. Let's go
inflation, it'd be 23 bucks. Let's go crazy and raise it to 25. Let's more
crazy and raise it to 25. Let's more housing. The archetype of of a man, I
housing. The archetype of of a man, I get it. Maybe what works for me doesn't
get it. Maybe what works for me doesn't work for young people, but
work for young people, but we don't want to recognize the world we
we don't want to recognize the world we live in. Um, marriages become the new
live in. Um, marriages become the new luxury item. One in four men in the
luxury item. One in four men in the lower quintile of income earning
lower quintile of income earning households get married. Three in four
households get married. Three in four men in the upper quintile get married.
men in the upper quintile get married. And well, marriage isn't the answer.
And well, marriage isn't the answer. Well, it's a pretty good answer for men.
Well, it's a pretty good answer for men. Men live four to seven years longer in a
Men live four to seven years longer in a relationship. Women live longer, 2 to
relationship. Women live longer, 2 to four years. But what it ends up is that
four years. But what it ends up is that men benefit more from relationships than
men benefit more from relationships than women. Which isn't to say women owe men
women. Which isn't to say women owe men anything. It's to say that men do really
anything. It's to say that men do really well in relationships. And there are a
well in relationships. And there are a lot of women out there that would like
lot of women out there that would like more economically and emotionally viable
more economically and emotionally viable men. So, let's lift let's lift up young
men. So, let's lift let's lift up young people. Let's let's figure out a way.
people. Let's let's figure out a way. Are you married?
Are you married? >> I am. Yeah.
>> I am. Yeah. >> Okay. Do you enjoy being married?
>> Okay. Do you enjoy being married? >> Aggressively.
>> Aggressively. I I look I didn't want to get married. I
I I look I didn't want to get married. I didn't want to have kids. It has given
didn't want to have kids. It has given me purpose and meaning in my life which
me purpose and meaning in my life which I did not have. So, I am projecting it
I did not have. So, I am projecting it on other people. And by the way, my
on other people. And by the way, my first marriage didn't work out. 84% of
first marriage didn't work out. 84% of people, all this, all these Tik Toks
people, all this, all these Tik Toks about marriage is a failed technology.
about marriage is a failed technology. Well, then why do 84% of people who did
Well, then why do 84% of people who did it once and it didn't work out get
it once and it didn't work out get remarried within 5 years? So you you I I
remarried within 5 years? So you you I I anyone listening to your podcast, Dom,
anyone listening to your podcast, Dom, is not going to be surprised by this. I
is not going to be surprised by this. I struggle with depression and anger. So I
struggle with depression and anger. So I decided I'm going to write a book on
decided I'm going to write a book on happiness. I wrote a book called The
happiness. I wrote a book called The Algebra of Happiness. I have read I
Algebra of Happiness. I have read I think every peer-reviewed research study
think every peer-reviewed research study on happiness. It all comes down to the
on happiness. It all comes down to the basic things. Number two, a basic level
basic things. Number two, a basic level of economic sustainability. You don't
of economic sustainability. You don't have to be rich. You just have to be
have to be rich. You just have to be able to have some level of healthcare
able to have some level of healthcare and education. But the number one number
and education. But the number one number one source of happiness is the number of
one source of happiness is the number of deep and meaningful relationships you
deep and meaningful relationships you have. And unfortunately for a man, his
have. And unfortunately for a man, his relationship with himself and his
relationship with himself and his ability to have a primary relationship
ability to have a primary relationship with a romantic partner is unfairly
with a romantic partner is unfairly and absolutely inextricably linked to
and absolutely inextricably linked to his economic viability. And until our
his economic viability. And until our species changes,
species changes, that's not going to change. So let's at
that's not going to change. So let's at least have an honest conversation around
least have an honest conversation around how we level up the mental health, the
how we level up the mental health, the prosperity, and the purpose of our young
prosperity, and the purpose of our young people. Should it come at the cost of
people. Should it come at the cost of women? 100%
women? 100% no. Are women responsible for fixing
no. Are women responsible for fixing this? No. Are they responsible for this
this? No. Are they responsible for this problem? No. First and foremost, young
problem? No. First and foremost, young men need to level up. I hate the term
men need to level up. I hate the term incel. When I coach young men and he
incel. When I coach young men and he describes himself as an incel, I'm like,
describes himself as an incel, I'm like, "No, I met you. You're not Brad Pitt,
"No, I met you. You're not Brad Pitt, but you're not badl looking. You're
but you're not badl looking. You're you're you're not disabled. You're e
you're you're not disabled. You're e you're you you have you're physically
you're you you have you're physically fine. You're a little [ __ ] up in the
fine. You're a little [ __ ] up in the head, but you're you wouldn't you
head, but you're you wouldn't you wouldn't be described as clinically
wouldn't be described as clinically depressed. You are a vill. You are
depressed. You are a vill. You are voluntarily celibate, right? I wanted a
voluntarily celibate, right? I wanted a girlfriend desperately when I was in
girlfriend desperately when I was in high school. I wanted to have sex
high school. I wanted to have sex desperately. I could not find anyone to
desperately. I could not find anyone to do that with me. Uh so quote unquote, it
do that with me. Uh so quote unquote, it was an incel. I worked on myself. I
was an incel. I worked on myself. I worked out. I tried to develop
worked out. I tried to develop excellence. I went to college. I
excellence. I went to college. I developed a sense of resilience. I
developed a sense of resilience. I started talking to women and I entered
started talking to women and I entered into a series of skills such that I
into a series of skills such that I could develop the most important things
could develop the most important things that have given me purpose and meaning
that have given me purpose and meaning in my life. Friends, colleagues at work
in my life. Friends, colleagues at work and uh a wonderful mate I get to raise
and uh a wonderful mate I get to raise these wonderful kids with. I want to
these wonderful kids with. I want to create the infrastructure such that more
create the infrastructure such that more and more young people have access to
and more young people have access to that. And if they decide they don't want
that. And if they decide they don't want it, have at it. Watch Netflix all day,
it, have at it. Watch Netflix all day, do your own thing, go to Sanrope, be
do your own thing, go to Sanrope, be alone. But 60% of 30-year-olds used to
alone. But 60% of 30-year-olds used to have a child in the house. Now it's 27%.
have a child in the house. Now it's 27%. Is that because they've all discovered
Is that because they've all discovered that ch children suck and they don't
that ch children suck and they don't want children? No. It's because they're
want children? No. It's because they're having trouble finding a viable mate and
having trouble finding a viable mate and they have less money. So I want to go to
they have less money. So I want to go to the world where men are celebrated on
the world where men are celebrated on their character and their per and their
their character and their per and their self worth. Call me when we get there.
self worth. Call me when we get there. >> Yeah. Hopefully uh we'll be getting back
>> Yeah. Hopefully uh we'll be getting back to that one very fast. I I have maybe um
to that one very fast. I I have maybe um I I can feel your scar tissue as you
I I can feel your scar tissue as you talk about this. I can tell people have
talk about this. I can tell people have come after you. This is one of the
come after you. This is one of the things I think you you deliver such a
things I think you you deliver such a potent message. Um you said at the end
potent message. Um you said at the end what I think is the archetypal run. And
what I think is the archetypal run. And I am very aggressive in my presentation
I am very aggressive in my presentation of this. Uh and whatever people want to
of this. Uh and whatever people want to say, I honestly don't care. And that is
say, I honestly don't care. And that is because I think there's an evolutionary
because I think there's an evolutionary um setup that has created a typical
um setup that has created a typical speedun of life for both men and women
speedun of life for both men and women to be quite frank. But um the things you
to be quite frank. But um the things you talked about um okay I want to get laid
talked about um okay I want to get laid really badly. I'm not able to do that.
really badly. I'm not able to do that. So I start working out. I get
So I start working out. I get economically viable. Whatever that
economically viable. Whatever that takes. I start developing excellence. I
takes. I start developing excellence. I think that part of what's breaking down
think that part of what's breaking down right now is women give men a reason to
right now is women give men a reason to be better. And forgive me uh if this is
be better. And forgive me uh if this is uh more than you want to hear, but when
uh more than you want to hear, but when I think about what sexual receptivity
I think about what sexual receptivity is, even just the physical uh position
is, even just the physical uh position of vulnerability a woman puts her in to
of vulnerability a woman puts her in to receive uh that is crazy and is
receive uh that is crazy and is something that I think historically men
something that I think historically men have had to rise to a certain level to
have had to rise to a certain level to get a woman to be willing to take that
get a woman to be willing to take that risk. And because of that, the pursuit
risk. And because of that, the pursuit of a woman has created in men a drive to
of a woman has created in men a drive to get better, be better, do better. And
get better, be better, do better. And then historically, I think men and women
then historically, I think men and women got together much younger. And women
got together much younger. And women were likely to influence the man because
were likely to influence the man because they were like you. I very much want to
they were like you. I very much want to see women completely unshackled and live
see women completely unshackled and live whatever life they want economically or
whatever life they want economically or otherwise.
otherwise. But historically, they couldn't. And so
But historically, they couldn't. And so there was a um being in a relationship
there was a um being in a relationship was very protective. And so they would
was very protective. And so they would be young, find somebody with potential,
be young, find somebody with potential, get in a relationship with that person
get in a relationship with that person with potential and help them become a
with potential and help them become a better version of themselves. And like
better version of themselves. And like you, I certainly project what my life
you, I certainly project what my life has been. But I've said many times, so
has been. But I've said many times, so I've been married now for 23 years with
I've been married now for 23 years with my wife for 25. And I was dead broke
my wife for 25. And I was dead broke when I met my wife. And just cannot
when I met my wife. And just cannot imagine. I don't even want to know who I
imagine. I don't even want to know who I would have become had I not met her. And
would have become had I not met her. And she has helped me through incentivizing
she has helped me through incentivizing me to want to be better and then also
me to want to be better and then also just being a very bright uh person that
just being a very bright uh person that could see paths that I might otherwise
could see paths that I might otherwise miss and encourage me to go down those
miss and encourage me to go down those paths and that has been transformative
paths and that has been transformative in my life. um obviously has worked out
in my life. um obviously has worked out incredibly well and I got married when I
incredibly well and I got married when I was in my mid20s so by today's standards
was in my mid20s so by today's standards ridiculously young
ridiculously young >> and I look at that and I go okay if I
>> and I look at that and I go okay if I were you asked me to advise a young man
were you asked me to advise a young man I don't get to meet him I don't get to
I don't get to meet him I don't get to ask him any questions I would say uh
ask him any questions I would say uh work on yourself find excellence um
work on yourself find excellence um realize what I call the only belief that
realize what I call the only belief that matters if you put time and attention
matters if you put time and attention into getting better at something you
into getting better at something you will get better at it so go get good at
will get better at it so go get good at something that matters
something that matters and develop the self-confidence you need
and develop the self-confidence you need to attract a woman and then get with a
to attract a woman and then get with a woman that you feel you can help elevate
woman that you feel you can help elevate her and she believes she can help
her and she believes she can help elevate you and then together you guys
elevate you and then together you guys will approach life as partners whatever
will approach life as partners whatever path that takes you down. If you want to
path that takes you down. If you want to be the greatest entrepreneur my wife has
be the greatest entrepreneur my wife has been the biggest contributor to that
been the biggest contributor to that it's been incredible. if you want to be
it's been incredible. if you want to be a parent obviously. So
a parent obviously. So that idea has become very it's fallen
that idea has become very it's fallen completely out of favor. Taking an
completely out of favor. Taking an evolutionary look at all of this and
evolutionary look at all of this and understanding why we are where we are
understanding why we are where we are tends to make um people very
tends to make um people very uncomfortable for reasons that I can
uncomfortable for reasons that I can articulate but I think are moronic. And
articulate but I think are moronic. And so um until people get in line with the
so um until people get in line with the fact that they are having a biological
fact that they are having a biological experience, there is a reason men and
experience, there is a reason men and women have the dynamic that they have.
women have the dynamic that they have. you have articulated very well what men
you have articulated very well what men are prized for, what women are prized
are prized for, what women are prized for. So coming into all of this
for. So coming into all of this understanding that even if it's slightly
understanding that even if it's slightly different now for [snorts] hundreds of
different now for [snorts] hundreds of thousands of years, depending on how far
thousands of years, depending on how far back you want to track humans longer, um
back you want to track humans longer, um we've had evolutionary pressures to make
we've had evolutionary pressures to make us the way that we are and we're
us the way that we are and we're suddenly because of modern technology
suddenly because of modern technology just completely decoupled from that.
just completely decoupled from that. >> Yeah, I thought that was well said. And
>> Yeah, I thought that was well said. And so going back to what you said about
so going back to what you said about when I I didn't men I advised my sons to
when I I didn't men I advised my sons to pay when they're out with women and like
pay when they're out with women and like dad that's so boomer and I said look
dad that's so boomer and I said look every m every mammal has a courtship
every m every mammal has a courtship process and this is a way that you try
process and this is a way that you try to demonstrate commitment interest and
to demonstrate commitment interest and valor and the reality is on a more
valor and the reality is on a more logistical level the downside of sex and
logistical level the downside of sex and you reference this is much greater for
you reference this is much greater for women than it is for men. In addition,
women than it is for men. In addition, men benefit more from relationships than
men benefit more from relationships than women. A woman's fertility window is
women. A woman's fertility window is much shorter than yours, meaning her
much shorter than yours, meaning her time, quite frankly, is more valuable
time, quite frankly, is more valuable than yours. And one way you demonstrate
than yours. And one way you demonstrate that courtship, that valor, that
that courtship, that valor, that commitment, and recognition of the
commitment, and recognition of the asymmetry, and the benefits of
asymmetry, and the benefits of relationships and sex to men is an easy
relationships and sex to men is an easy way to say
way to say of service, not expectation,
of service, not expectation, not control, but I'm of service. I'm
not control, but I'm of service. I'm really I appreciate your time. I'm here.
really I appreciate your time. I'm here. I'm demonstrating some excellence and
I'm demonstrating some excellence and some commitment to the relationship. And
some commitment to the relationship. And one easy way to do that is to pay. And
one easy way to do that is to pay. And it's so funny. I've been on so many
it's so funny. I've been on so many podcasts talking about my book and I get
podcasts talking about my book and I get a lot of push back from men about this
a lot of push back from men about this that that's the ar you know that's
that that's the ar you know that's Boomer and and then I say to them and
Boomer and and then I say to them and I'll ask you this question. Who paid
I'll ask you this question. Who paid when you were first going out with your
when you were first going out with your wife? And it's always the same thing. I
wife? And it's always the same thing. I did.
did. And it's like okay. And what I told my
And it's like okay. And what I told my son, he's so woke I like to upset him. I
son, he's so woke I like to upset him. I say, "Just just keep in mind, look, if
say, "Just just keep in mind, look, if you want to split the check, fine. But
you want to split the check, fine. But keep in mind, anyone you ever split the
keep in mind, anyone you ever split the check with is never going to kiss you."
check with is never going to kiss you." And I stand by that. And look, I
And I stand by that. And look, I different strokes, different folks. If a
different strokes, different folks. If a woman asks you out, she wants to pay,
woman asks you out, she wants to pay, great. I I get it. This isn't 100%. But
great. I I get it. This isn't 100%. But I still believe that there are certain
I still believe that there are certain masculine
masculine masculine energy and feminine energy is
masculine energy and feminine energy is the greatest alliance in history. And I
the greatest alliance in history. And I have 7 and a half billion points of
have 7 and a half billion points of light for that. And appreciating
light for that. And appreciating femininity and appreciating masculinity
femininity and appreciating masculinity is a wonderful thing. And and recogns
is a wonderful thing. And and recogns away from the 5% who are non-binary. You
away from the 5% who are non-binary. You know, I get it. Uh, but I I like the
know, I get it. Uh, but I I like the idea of trying to restore a code for
idea of trying to restore a code for young men that says lean into your
young men that says lean into your masculine attributes. Want to be a
masculine attributes. Want to be a protector, want to be a provider, want
protector, want to be a provider, want to be a procreator as long as it's
to be a procreator as long as it's channeled in healthy ways. uh uh but
channeled in healthy ways. uh uh but yeah I think this is uh I I'd like to
yeah I think this is uh I I'd like to think it's a code for young men who are
think it's a code for young men who are really struggling right now who have an
really struggling right now who have an absence of sort of a a code and I always
absence of sort of a a code and I always come back to the same thing and that is
come back to the same thing and that is who wants what I have found is that the
who wants what I have found is that the group that wants more economically and
group that wants more economically and emotionally viable men is women and that
emotionally viable men is women and that there's some consumer dissonance between
there's some consumer dissonance between what we try to articulate and what we
what we try to articulate and what we think is the right virtue and then how
think is the right virtue and then how we actually behave and what we respond
we actually behave and what we respond to. And that doesn't mean we can't
to. And that doesn't mean we can't evolve and change, but at the same time,
evolve and change, but at the same time, how do we help young people find the
how do we help young people find the most meaningful things for happiness?
most meaningful things for happiness? And that is relationships, economic
And that is relationships, economic viability, relationships, a romantic
viability, relationships, a romantic partner, not necessarily in that order.
partner, not necessarily in that order. And I find a lot of this a lot of the
And I find a lot of this a lot of the current
dogma um dialogue pays absolutely no doesn't even
dialogue pays absolutely no doesn't even nod to the reality of what young people
nod to the reality of what young people are facing out there and how they
are facing out there and how they actually discern and sort through mating
actually discern and sort through mating or not.
or not. >> No, I agree very much. Um what do you
>> No, I agree very much. Um what do you take away from the correlation? don't
take away from the correlation? don't know that it's caused, but the
know that it's caused, but the correlation that the more a nation
correlation that the more a nation educates their women, the lower the
educates their women, the lower the birth rate,
birth rate, >> it's a real issue. And I and even when
>> it's a real issue. And I and even when you even when you look like a counter to
you even when you look like a counter to my argument is even when you look at
my argument is even when you look at economic incentives around having more
economic incentives around having more kids, often times they don't work.
kids, often times they don't work. >> And I don't think I don't think you can
>> And I don't think I don't think you can tell people to have more kids if they
tell people to have more kids if they don't want them. And also, I think a lot
don't want them. And also, I think a lot of people who don't have kids are happy.
of people who don't have kids are happy. And I think that's their right. Uh that
And I think that's their right. Uh that to me is where if you're going to have a
to me is where if you're going to have a pragmatic policy, you talk about
pragmatic policy, you talk about immigration
immigration and that is all right. If we can't if
and that is all right. If we can't if young if young people are deciding not
young if young people are deciding not to have kids because they're more
to have kids because they're more educated and they want more money for
educated and they want more money for themselves and they want more freedom,
themselves and they want more freedom, you know, you don't want to get in the
you know, you don't want to get in the way of that. Like in Korea supposedly, I
way of that. Like in Korea supposedly, I think one out of 27 people is gonna have
think one out of 27 people is gonna have a a grandkid.
a a grandkid. >> Whoa.
>> Whoa. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> That's Wow. I knew it was bad, but
>> That's Wow. I knew it was bad, but hearing it like that, that's pretty
hearing it like that, that's pretty startling.
startling. >> You know, only I think it's like 60%
>> You know, only I think it's like 60% will get married, a third of them will
will get married, a third of them will have kids, and you go one generation
have kids, and you go one generation more and it ends up one in 27 will have
more and it ends up one in 27 will have a grandkid. But we're actually doing
a grandkid. But we're actually doing okay.
okay. We're not we're demographically we look
We're not we're demographically we look actually okay. Some of that is there's
actually okay. Some of that is there's certain sects of our society that are
certain sects of our society that are having a lot of kids.
having a lot of kids. Uh my podcast go always reminds me it's
Uh my podcast go always reminds me it's gay women having all the kids. And then
gay women having all the kids. And then >> is that really true?
>> is that really true? >> Obviously a little tongue and cheek, but
>> Obviously a little tongue and cheek, but >> well, they're having more kids. You
>> well, they're having more kids. You never, you know, I mean, this is one of
never, you know, I mean, this is one of the wonderful things about our society
the wonderful things about our society is that my podcast co-host has had four
is that my podcast co-host has had four kids and lives a really, in my opinion,
kids and lives a really, in my opinion, lives a pretty good life, mostly free
lives a pretty good life, mostly free from discrimination. Just when I was in
from discrimination. Just when I was in college, you wouldn't have found that.
college, you wouldn't have found that. >> You just wouldn't have found it. They
>> You just wouldn't have found it. They would have been discou
anyways. That's a wonderful thing. But if you want pragmatic economic policy
if you want pragmatic economic policy around you need population growth. We
around you need population growth. We were worried there was going to be a
were worried there was going to be a population
population bomb that would overrun the planet in
bomb that would overrun the planet in the 70s. The bomb's gone off but it's
the 70s. The bomb's gone off but it's imploded, not detonated. We need more
imploded, not detonated. We need more kids. Um because what happens in a
kids. Um because what happens in a society if you have too few young people
society if you have too few young people supporting unproductive seniors, the
supporting unproductive seniors, the society collapses. You end up where
society collapses. You end up where America is spending too much money on
America is spending too much money on seniors and not enough in foreign
seniors and not enough in foreign leaning investments. So one way you do
leaning investments. So one way you do that I think is with economic incentives
that I think is with economic incentives to put more money in the pocket of young
to put more money in the pocket of young people. I think it will help but the
people. I think it will help but the studies in Northern Europe show it
studies in Northern Europe show it doesn't solve the problem. I think you
doesn't solve the problem. I think you supplant that with a thoughtful
supplant that with a thoughtful immigration policy.
immigration policy. [snorts]
[snorts] >> Well, so speaking of immigration, what
>> Well, so speaking of immigration, what does a thoughtful immigration policy
does a thoughtful immigration policy look like? I'm guessing Trump is not
look like? I'm guessing Trump is not your answer to that. Uh so what should
your answer to that. Uh so what should it look like?
it look like? >> Well, so I don't want to pretend to be a
>> Well, so I don't want to pretend to be a domain expert here. I'm I'm I'm I suffer
domain expert here. I'm I'm I'm I suffer from Dunning Krueger and that is because
from Dunning Krueger and that is because I've had some discuss in some reasons. I
I've had some discuss in some reasons. I think I'm an expert on everything. Um
think I'm an expert on everything. Um look, I I think that the we can never
look, I I think that the we can never seem to have a middle ground. If you've
seem to have a middle ground. If you've been here 20 or 30 years, working your
been here 20 or 30 years, working your ass off, good kids, taxpayer, no contact
ass off, good kids, taxpayer, no contact with the law, path to citizenship. Let's
with the law, path to citizenship. Let's just Yeah, okay. You're right. It's a
just Yeah, okay. You're right. It's a bummer for the people who waited in line
bummer for the people who waited in line or didn't come in. I get it. Path to
or didn't come in. I get it. Path to citizenship. But at the same time, if we
citizenship. But at the same time, if we were really serious about immigration,
were really serious about immigration, we use biometrics and we'd go out to the
we use biometrics and we'd go out to the supply side and start finding the
supply side and start finding the employers.
employers. You show up to a fast food restaurant
You show up to a fast food restaurant and say, "Unless you show proof of
and say, "Unless you show proof of citizenship for these people who are
citizenship for these people who are filing social security and that you're
filing social security and that you're paying and have bank accounts for or
paying and have bank accounts for or automatic transfers, we're going to find
automatic transfers, we're going to find you $1,000 a day." Uh, problem solved.
you $1,000 a day." Uh, problem solved. But instead, we want to demonize the
But instead, we want to demonize the immigrants. So I I think there and then
immigrants. So I I think there and then all I think we should have a thoughtful
all I think we should have a thoughtful immigration policy around what are our
immigration policy around what are our needs. We need lowskilled labor willing
needs. We need lowskilled labor willing to come work their asses off and pick
to come work their asses off and pick our lettuce. We need them unless we want
our lettuce. We need them unless we want lettuce prices to triple. We need
lettuce prices to triple. We need semi-skilled labor to roof our
semi-skilled labor to roof our household. I just renovated a house. No
household. I just renovated a house. No domestic workers will work outside in
domestic workers will work outside in Florida. You just can't find them. The
Florida. You just can't find them. The only people born and raised in America
only people born and raised in America will work on a home renovation are
will work on a home renovation are plumbers and electricians. That's it.
plumbers and electricians. That's it. Full stop. And they say, 'Well, okay, if
Full stop. And they say, 'Well, okay, if we didn't have these legal immigrants,
we didn't have these legal immigrants, you have to pay roofers more. No, these
you have to pay roofers more. No, these construction sites shut down. And then
construction sites shut down. And then going to the top of the stack, 20% of
going to the top of the stack, 20% of the NASDAQ by market capitalization is
the NASDAQ by market capitalization is not only immigrants, it's immigrants
not only immigrants, it's immigrants from India.
from India. I teach at a world-class business
I teach at a world-class business school. The PhD students are the best
school. The PhD students are the best and brightest from the four corners of
and brightest from the four corners of the earth. It's as if the the Los
the earth. It's as if the the Los Angeles Rams, it's as if the Rams said,
Angeles Rams, it's as if the Rams said, we said to the Rams, you can have the
we said to the Rams, you can have the number one draft choice every year, all
number one draft choice every year, all the number ones. And we said, no, turn
the number ones. And we said, no, turn them away. That's what America is right
them away. That's what America is right now. We get the number one draft choice
now. We get the number one draft choice from everywhere in the world. And right
from everywhere in the world. And right now, we're saying no, turn them away.
now, we're saying no, turn them away. Should we have open borders? No. But we
Should we have open borders? No. But we should absolutely have more HP1 visas.
should absolutely have more HP1 visas. We should absolutely have more flexible
We should absolutely have more flexible uh immigration policy around low-wage
uh immigration policy around low-wage labor. Who the who the hell do you think
labor. Who the who the hell do you think is going to take care of your parents
is going to take care of your parents when they're 90? You going to give up
when they're 90? You going to give up work? I mean, we need immigrants. We
work? I mean, we need immigrants. We also need them for population growth.
also need them for population growth. They add to our culture, but it should
They add to our culture, but it should be digital. It should be organized. It
be digital. It should be organized. It should be planned. So I say it has to be
should be planned. So I say it has to be legal immigration, but you absolutely
legal immigration, but you absolutely open up the throttle dramatically and
open up the throttle dramatically and just have a very systemic these are our
just have a very systemic these are our needs for agricultural workers. These
needs for agricultural workers. These are our needs for people who will be in
are our needs for people who will be in the construction in the housing sector.
the construction in the housing sector. This is our need for PhD students and
This is our need for PhD students and the need is big but but demonizing them
the need is big but but demonizing them scaring them. Do you know how much money
scaring them. Do you know how much money we make at UN? It's hilarious that at
we make at UN? It's hilarious that at NYU and every other lead institution, we
NYU and every other lead institution, we brag about 30 40% of our students
brag about 30 40% of our students international student and we claim it's
international student and we claim it's for diversity. What [ __ ] It's for
for diversity. What [ __ ] It's for money. They pay full freight. They pay
money. They pay full freight. They pay $68,000 tuition at NYU, 95% of gross
$68,000 tuition at NYU, 95% of gross margin, $272,000
margin, $272,000 over four years. Name a product that has
over four years. Name a product that has 945 points of gross margin at $272,000.
945 points of gross margin at $272,000. These are the most we export tens of
These are the most we export tens of billions of dollars of high margin
billions of dollars of high margin revenue to adults overseas who think the
revenue to adults overseas who think the ultimate luxury item is to send their
ultimate luxury item is to send their kids to an elite school. And then what
kids to an elite school. And then what do they do? They go back and they love
do they do? They go back and they love America and they don't want to help
America and they don't want to help terrorist cells form against us. They
terrorist cells form against us. They want to do trade with us. Sometimes they
want to do trade with us. Sometimes they come back here. Sometimes they end up in
come back here. Sometimes they end up in government because it's usually the
government because it's usually the richest kid in the nation that ends up
richest kid in the nation that ends up in undergrad. And then on the flip side,
in undergrad. And then on the flip side, on the PhD side, best and brightest,
on the PhD side, best and brightest, some ridiculously [ __ ] smart kid out
some ridiculously [ __ ] smart kid out of Cambodia who somehow understands prop
of Cambodia who somehow understands prop liquid propulsion dynamics and lives for
liquid propulsion dynamics and lives for it and ends up at MIT and figures out a
it and ends up at MIT and figures out a way to send our satellites into space
way to send our satellites into space for less money than anywhere else in the
for less money than anywhere else in the world. Oh, but we're going to turn that
world. Oh, but we're going to turn that away. We want them to go to China or
away. We want them to go to China or France. So, our immigration policy right
France. So, our immigration policy right now, it needs to be enforced. It needs
now, it needs to be enforced. It needs to be rational, but it can help with
to be rational, but it can help with population growth. And absolutely, the
population growth. And absolutely, the greatest investment in US history is not
greatest investment in US history is not only financial capital coming in, which
only financial capital coming in, which raises our stocks and lowers our access
raises our stocks and lowers our access or cheapens makes our capital cheaper,
or cheapens makes our capital cheaper, but the inflow of human capital. Oh my
but the inflow of human capital. Oh my gosh. I mean, the the best and brightest
gosh. I mean, the the best and brightest in the world used to have one thing in
in the world used to have one thing in common, and that is they all wanted to
common, and that is they all wanted to come to America, and we've decided to
come to America, and we've decided to discourage that. I mean, again, I just
discourage that. I mean, again, I just think his instincts, again, going back
think his instincts, again, going back to Trump, instincts were right. We
to Trump, instincts were right. We should not have open borders, but should
should not have open borders, but should we be really scaring away the best and
we be really scaring away the best and brightest in the world who want to come
brightest in the world who want to come here and and put our rockets into space
here and and put our rockets into space and figure out different chemotherapy
and figure out different chemotherapy for our cancer victims and figure out a
for our cancer victims and figure out a way to start crazy tech companies that
way to start crazy tech companies that create millions of jobs? It just doesn't
create millions of jobs? It just doesn't make any sense to me.
make any sense to me. >> All politicians do is say whatever they
>> All politicians do is say whatever they need to say to gain and retain power.
need to say to gain and retain power. So, that's what the populace wants to
So, that's what the populace wants to hear. I very much think Trump is a a
hear. I very much think Trump is a a symptom. He's not a cause. I mean, he
symptom. He's not a cause. I mean, he certainly exacerbates, but I don't think
certainly exacerbates, but I don't think he is in and of himself a cause. Um,
he is in and of himself a cause. Um, there's one thing that you said in all
there's one thing that you said in all of that that I want to um push on, which
of that that I want to um push on, which is, uh, it's great for our culture to
is, uh, it's great for our culture to have immigration. What do you think
have immigration. What do you think about assimilation? So, from, uh, you're
about assimilation? So, from, uh, you're in the UK right now. Obviously, the UK
in the UK right now. Obviously, the UK is um having a reckoning of sorts with
is um having a reckoning of sorts with um I'll say the assimilation side of
um I'll say the assimilation side of immigration.
immigration. Do you think that matters or um much to
Do you think that matters or um much to do about nothing? I I I just think it's
do about nothing? I I I just think it's a fair point you're dancing. I mean,
a fair point you're dancing. I mean, there are just certain cultures where
there are just certain cultures where when we let people come in, they don't
when we let people come in, they don't tend to be productive citizens and
tend to be productive citizens and assimilate. Well, Northern Europe has a
assimilate. Well, Northern Europe has a huge gangland problem from from
huge gangland problem from from immigration from certain. But to me,
immigration from certain. But to me, this is just like it's it's not rocket
this is just like it's it's not rocket science. I think you discriminate. If
science. I think you discriminate. If you've got if you've got a degree in
you've got if you've got a degree in mechanical engineering and you went to
mechanical engineering and you went to IIT in India, come on in. If you're a
IIT in India, come on in. If you're a hardworking kid who's willing to work in
hardworking kid who's willing to work in agriculture and manufacturing and you
agriculture and manufacturing and you want to sign up for for a training or
want to sign up for for a training or vocational program in areas where we
vocational program in areas where we don't have those people, come on in. If
don't have those people, come on in. If you're coming from a profile or a
you're coming from a profile or a demographic that tends to uh not be
demographic that tends to uh not be productive, end up on social services or
productive, end up on social services or has a very large proportion of
has a very large proportion of population that is unproductive or
population that is unproductive or becomes violent. Sorry, boss. We I don't
becomes violent. Sorry, boss. We I don't think America can feed the world. I
think America can feed the world. I don't think everyone has an I don't
don't think everyone has an I don't think we have an obligation to let
think we have an obligation to let everyone immigrate here. And it's
everyone immigrate here. And it's totally contrary to bring us your tired.
totally contrary to bring us your tired. A billion people would like to immigrate
A billion people would like to immigrate to the US right now. If we said open
to the US right now. If we said open borders, let us know. billion people and
borders, let us know. billion people and we'll give you pre-loaded phone cards
we'll give you pre-loaded phone cards and Harris Harris Biden hats. A billion
and Harris Harris Biden hats. A billion people would raise their hand. We can't
people would raise their hand. We can't do it. So, to me, these are there's just
do it. So, to me, these are there's just common sense solutions.
common sense solutions. You know, I don't know if it's fair. I
You know, I don't know if it's fair. I think you want to be fair. I think you
think you want to be fair. I think you want to be equitable, but I agree it
want to be equitable, but I agree it should be based on what is best for
should be based on what is best for America's economy. Um, but a huge
America's economy. Um, but a huge huge mistakes around the far left
huge mistakes around the far left thinking that all immigrants are saints
thinking that all immigrants are saints and are going to come in. And what
and are going to come in. And what happens? there's an overcorrection and
happens? there's an overcorrection and they start demonizing them and there's
they start demonizing them and there's violence. So again, it doesn't appear we
violence. So again, it doesn't appear we can ever get the pendulum at the middle
can ever get the pendulum at the middle at the bottom.
at the bottom. >> Yeah. On that one, uh just again it goes
>> Yeah. On that one, uh just again it goes back to me to psychological problems in
back to me to psychological problems in terms of when people are economically
terms of when people are economically insecure that insecurity feels very bad,
insecure that insecurity feels very bad, feels like anxiety. It's going to be
feels like anxiety. It's going to be transmuted into anger which is a far
transmuted into anger which is a far more intoxicating um thing. There was a
more intoxicating um thing. There was a very small study but still utterly
very small study but still utterly fascinating because of the extremity of
fascinating because of the extremity of it. When a patient has their skull
it. When a patient has their skull opened and the doctors are using an
opened and the doctors are using an electrode to stimulate emotional centers
electrode to stimulate emotional centers in their brain, they'll stimulate all
in their brain, they'll stimulate all the different emotional centers and then
the different emotional centers and then say, "Okay, of all of those, which one
say, "Okay, of all of those, which one do you want me to stimulate again?" And
do you want me to stimulate again?" And they invariably say anger. And I think
they invariably say anger. And I think the reason that people like that is
the reason that people like that is there's so much certainty, there's so
there's so much certainty, there's so much clarity, there's so much forward
much clarity, there's so much forward momentum. you know exactly what to do.
momentum. you know exactly what to do. And so I this is now my uh to a hammer.
And so I this is now my uh to a hammer. Every problem is a nail. To me, just
Every problem is a nail. To me, just everything comes back to the economy.
everything comes back to the economy. And so when I look at people that are
And so when I look at people that are economically insecure, I know that they
economically insecure, I know that they are going to translate history tells me
are going to translate history tells me so. They are going to translate that
so. They are going to translate that into anger. They are then going to need
into anger. They are then going to need somebody to blame. And then, hey, nice
somebody to blame. And then, hey, nice and easy to point at either an immigrant
and easy to point at either an immigrant population or historically the Jews have
population or historically the Jews have uh been the standin for that. Somebody
uh been the standin for that. Somebody who's considered an outsider that I can
who's considered an outsider that I can blame for all of my woes and then we go
blame for all of my woes and then we go on the attack. The problem is to um
on the attack. The problem is to um bring in what you were saying is there
bring in what you were saying is there are realities to be faced here. You can
are realities to be faced here. You can do immigration well, you can do
do immigration well, you can do immigration very very [snorts] poorly.
immigration very very [snorts] poorly. And so when you have all this economic
And so when you have all this economic stress being transmuted into anger at
stress being transmuted into anger at the same time that you have this wild
the same time that you have this wild immigration policy, then you end up
immigration policy, then you end up where we're at now, which is full
where we're at now, which is full disaster from where I'm sitting. Scott,
disaster from where I'm sitting. Scott, this has been wonderful. Where can
this has been wonderful. Where can people connect with you?
people connect with you? >> Thank you. I So I to resist is feudal.
>> Thank you. I So I to resist is feudal. I'm overexposed. I'm like AOL in the
I'm overexposed. I'm like AOL in the '9s. If you stick your hand in a cereal
'9s. If you stick your hand in a cereal box, you're going to find me. Um, but
box, you're going to find me. Um, but I'm at Prof Galloway uh on all social
I'm at Prof Galloway uh on all social media. My newsletter is No Mercy, No
media. My newsletter is No Mercy, No Malice. My book out is called Notes on
Malice. My book out is called Notes on Being a Man,
Being a Man, >> my man Scott. Again, thank you so much
>> my man Scott. Again, thank you so much everybody. If you haven't already, be
everybody. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time,
sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care.
my friends, be legendary. Take care. Peace.
Peace. >> If you like this conversation, check out
>> If you like this conversation, check out this episode to learn more. We just had
this episode to learn more. We just had a socialist elected to the be mayor of
a socialist elected to the be mayor of the biggest financial city in the world.
the biggest financial city in the world. Um, what do you take away from that? Do
Um, what do you take away from that? Do you think that that's going to make New
you think that that's going to make New York City better? Is this a good
York City better? Is this a good direction for
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