You are the single most requested guest.
And let me tell you, this has not been
easy cuz we went to some hard places,
but I don't think we'll ever talk about
anything more important than this cuz
it's not fear that gets in the way of us
being brave with our lives and our work.
[music] It's the armor that we reach for
to self-protect when we're afraid and
how [music] that armor moves us away
from love, connection, and our values.
And [music] the hardest work is being
aware of what is my armor when I'm
afraid. Is that automatic? Oh, no, it's
a training. So, let's start with that,
then. Brené Brown is an icon whose
world-leading research in shame,
vulnerability, and connection
>> has inspired [music] companies like
Pixar, Google, and the US Special Forces
>> to build stronger leaders and help the
everyday person unlock their full potential.
potential.
Ready? Is vulnerability important?
>> It is if we want to be brave with our
lives, but we were raised to believe
that vulnerability is weakness.
>> [music]
>> Like in my family, we were allowed
anger, but sad was not an option. You
needed to be tough. So, when I get
scared, when I [music] feel anxious,
disappointed, I'm just angry. And so,
when you're raised without
vulnerability, it'll put you in
jeopardy. Like you want to know what
vulnerability is? Joy. Joy is so
vulnerable [music] that people choose to
live disappointed rather than to get
excited about something and risk getting
sucker punched by disappointment. Like
there is no courage without
vulnerability because courage is the
willingness to show up and be all in
when you cannot predict the outcome.
Wow, I've never thought about that
before. But you can develop skills. Like
it's skills, that's courage?
>> Yes. We've taken 165,000
people through this work. That included
how to build trust.
>> And I've heard about your marble jar
theory. Could you explain to me what
your marble jar You look at how excited
you are. I know.
So, this is how we teach trust to the
most senior leaders in Fortune [music]
100 companies. It's awesome.
I see messages all the time in the
comment section that some of you didn't
realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you
could do me a favor and double-check if
you're a subscriber to this channel,
that would be tremendously appreciated.
It is the simple, it's the free thing
that anybody that watches this show
frequently can do to help us here to
keep everything going in this show in
the trajectory it's on. So, please do
double-check if you subscribed and uh
thank you so much because in a strange
way you are you're part of our history
and you're on this journey with us and I
appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank you.
you. >> [music]
>> [music] [singing]
[singing] >> Brené.
In order to um understand all the work
that you have done and the perspective
that you have on the world and also who
you are as a anomaly in many respects, I
think it's probably important that I
understand your earliest context.
Where you've come from, what shaped you.
I'm stuck on a
Am I a Am I an anomaly? I think of
course you're an anomaly.
Of course you're an anomaly. It that
that should be of no surprise to you.
I mean, if you look at your outcomes,
your outcomes are anomalous.
So, one would assume that there's some form
form >> [snorts]
>> [snorts]
>> something that made you an anomaly.
I would say that
I'm a fifth-generation Texan. Mhm. I
I
came from a fair amount of dysfunction.
dysfunction.
Parents doing the best they could
with what they knew.
Both coming from really, really, really
tough upbringings that included, you know,
know, poverty,
poverty,
addiction. And so, probably a lot of the
stereotypes you would think about
fifth-generation Texan, tough, don't
cry, we were allowed a very small
continuum of emotions were approval, you
know, were approved, which were pissed off
off
or okay. Like anger was okay, but no,
you know, couldn't be sad, really. Or
vulnerability was not a thing.
Vulnerability was weakness and scary and
put you in jeopardy.
I felt like a real outsider at home and
in school.
But I was really good at reading people,
reading situations. I think my I I think
a therapist somewhere along the way said
Yes, that's hypervigilance. Mhm. You're hypervigilant.
hypervigilant.
You know, I can see everything around me
and everything that's going on. I can
connect things very quickly that other
people don't see.
And there was laughter
but there was a
ton of unpredictability.
I was going to say, isn't that typically
what creates hypervigilance is some kind of
of
need to be that aware when you're young? Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I think yes.
Being fun-loving
was very valued in my family and being
tough. These were the values. These are
These are on the parental scorecard.
Mhm. This is what got you an A. If
you're fun, easy,
easy,
you can, you know, shoot straight, spit
far, fish well,
like really, drive fast. And so, those
things were very valued.
Athleticism was very valued. Um
But those fun things could turn really
hard very quickly.
There was a big pause there. 4-second
pause as you
>> Yeah, I could just picture it. Like it's
fun until
it's fun until you've got a parent
ejected from a game
for being so hard.
And that was your father?
>> Yeah. How he is really hard, then, if he
was ejected from a game. Oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
There's a photo I saw of you and your
siblings where you're clutching your siblings.
siblings.
And I think you referred to it as you
could see there was a certain fear in
your eyes. Do you Do you know the photo
I'm referring to? Am I on a couch?
You're on a couch, is that
>> Like a yellow velour couch like from the '70s?
'70s?
>> Yes. Yeah.
I think about that picture. I like that
picture, but there is definitely I
definitely had a protector role as the
oldest. I mean, code name Sister
Superior. It was jokingly, but it wasn't
joking. Like if things got hard between
my parents and they would get involved
till fights, I would go get all my
siblings, put them in my room.
I'd go downstairs and handle it, you
know, like I was definitely the
protector. Physically volatile fights?
Um on occasion, but more emotionally
volatile. Screaming and shouting?
>> yeah. Same with my parents. Yeah, just
loud. As a background in my whole house
for my whole childhood was just screaming.
screaming.
There was a Yeah, we had a lot of
screaming and there's a certain Like if
you grew up with screaming, hearing
screaming through a wall, Mhm.
Mhm.
you [clears throat] know that sound.
>> Mhm. Do you know that sound?
>> Mhm, of course, yeah. Oh my god, it's my
whole childhood. Yeah.
>> Seven nights a week of screaming. Yeah.
And so, yeah, I'm sorry because I don't
like to hear that about your childhood
and I don't like to know that about my
childhood, but there was a lot of
screaming. And so, I think hypervigilant,
protective, responsible,
responsible,
with a dose of
be very [ __ ] careful because
because
And and how did that change your model
of love as a young person? It must have
been cuz I mean, I obviously feel the
same way about about my situation and um
I think the lesson I learned was that
love was like a prison cuz it was my mom
doing the shouting and my dad was the
prisoner and he wouldn't respond.
So, this you got a woman shouting at him
for 6, 7 hours a day and him sat there
like he's a like
inanimate object looking at the screen.
And I remember thinking, "Oh, okay. So,
if I get in a relationship when I'm
older, then I'm going to be a prisoner
to a woman. Okay."
Doesn't sound Doesn't sound appealing.
And if he moved to a different room,
she'd follow him. So,
I avoided relationships like the [ __ ] plague.
plague.
I did well until about 27. >> [clears throat]
>> [clears throat]
>> And then what?
And then someone got over the wall and
corrected to some of the evidence.
They got over the wall?
>> over the wall somehow.
Yeah, Steve got over the wall. Damn it.
Well, that's your part of not me, just
for context.
>> No, not Yeah, NOT YOU. >> [laughter]
>> [laughter]
>> ALTHOUGH YOU'RE DOING A HELL OF A JOB
RIGHT NOW. Um you're like you've crossed
the piranha-filled moat that I like. Um
but the drawbridge is like I'm see I'm
just see I'm going to see. My Steve My
Steve definitely
definitely got over the wall.
Um but it was like game game recognizes
game. He had a wall. Oh, okay.
>> Yeah. And so, we had long conversations
about our walls and and slowly through
those conversations, we just
those walls crumbled with each other and
we've been together now for 38 years.
>> Wow. Yeah.
Um hardest thing I've ever done in my life.
life.
Bar none, dude. Nothing has been harder.
When I started dating Steve,
well, when we got married, 6 months
after we got married. This is, you know,
you you said for you love was going to
be being a prisoner. Mhm.
And having to just shut down
to survive.
>> Mhm. Right?
>> Run away. Don't confront it. No
conversations, no fights.
>> No. No.
Um for me, 6 months after we were
married, I went to go see a therapist
and I said, "I cannot do this. I've got
to get out of this marriage." And we had
dated off and on for 7 years before we
got married. And I said, "I got to get out."
out."
And she said, "I could The This is hard.
I I could see how this is not working."
And I was like
I had a twinge of defensiveness about
Steve and I said, "What do you mean?"
And she said,
"He likes you so much more
than you like you. It must be terrible."
I was like, "Fuck you, MAN. YOU'RE FIRED."
FIRED." >> [laughter]
>> I WAS I WAS SO
I I thought, "What?"
That's what I do. So, if you I'm going
to give you one of my tells.
If I do a really high-pitched "What?"
That means
I'm That means I'm looking for my purse
and I'm get I know where the door is. Um
I I I I just kept thinking, "What do
What do you mean?" He said, "It's got
It's got to be very comf- uncomfortable
to be with someone who sees you and
really knows you and loves you so much
when you have not found a way to see you
and love you so much.
It's got to be disconcerting."
What an [ __ ] man. Like, wow. And it
was true. I had to get to this point
where I was like, I Maybe I should like
me as much as he likes me and then make
a better decision about whether this is
going to work or not.
When you grow up
and pissed off or shut down are your two
emotional opportunities. Like, that you
know, in Atlas of the Heart, I write
about 87 emotions that I think are
important to understand because the
limits of our language are the limits of
our world.
When you have two buckets,
then everything must go in those. And in
fact, in our research over the last 15
years, we found the average person
can accurately identify and name three
emotions: happy, sad, pissed off. Mhm. >> [clears throat]
>> [clears throat]
>> And so, in my family, sad was not
an option. That was weakness.
So, you could be pissed or okay.
So, when I get scared,
when I feel grief,
when I'm anxious, when I feel
disappointment, when I feel anguish,
I'm just angry.
There's two sort of outstanding question
marks in my head, and they might be the
same answer, but it's You said earlier
on that you didn't fit in at school or
at home, and I didn't understand why you
didn't fit in at school or at at home.
And then the other thing that's sort of
a question mark in my head is the
therapist said to you that you well,
asserted that you didn't like yourself
as much as he liked you, and I wasn't
clear on what made you not like yourself.
yourself.
I wanted out of where I was raised. I
wanted to leave everything I knew.
And so, I always felt like an outsider.
I didn't
I didn't want to do I mean, I wasn't popular.
popular.
I wasn't dating a quarterback. That was
a dream that my my parents and their
parents and their parents, you know, you
were you were a Bear Cadet and you dated
a quarterback.
And you got a farm. So, at
I felt not cute, not popular,
not understood.
I was ang- I was anxious
and and always ready.
And the point about self-esteem, which
the therapist would have highlighted
about not liking oneself as much as
Steve liked you, where did that come
from? Or is that related in some way?
Oh, cuz my parents parented with a very
big a heaping dose of shame.
Oh, okay. So, if you accomplish
something or you don't accomplish
something, you're made to feel bad about it.
it. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
And a ton of it was about appearance,
being fun, appearance? Yeah.
Yeah, like, you know,
big blonde hair with hot rollers, the
higher the hair, the closer to God. You
needed to be tough and strong and throw
on a baseball cap and get somewhere
really quick, low maintenance,
and you needed to be a beauty pageant queen.
queen.
Do you remember them ever
being critical of your appearance in a
way that has stayed with you?
I mean, I think not just them. I mean,
like, I think
having young girls and young women
keeping them
from developing threats to their self-esteem
self-esteem
is not just a parental thing. It's like
it's It's like asking them not to
breathe because the air is poison. Like,
it's like every message from everywhere,
you know, the fashion magazines, you'd
read them and you'd think, "Wow,
"Wow,
I don't I don't look like this. How am I
going to look like this?" You know, and
you'd lather yourself up with baby oil
and you put lemon juice in your hair,
you put tin foil under your chin, get as
much skin cancer as you could cuz we
didn't know, you know, like, you you'd
We all wore jeans that you had to put on
with pliers with for the zipper cuz they
were so tight. Appearance mattered. This
is Texas, baby.
You go off to university eventually, and
not a straight line, but eventually you
get into university. Not a straight
line. Mhm. That's the sweetest thing
you've said to me. Um
Um
I graduated from college when I was 29.
Well, so you become a research professor
in 2001. >> [clears throat]
>> [clears throat]
>> And you've been a research professor and
many more things um ever since then. You
get your PhD in social work at the
University of Houston, Texas
between '96 and 2002. And really for the
last couple of decades, you've focused
on research, understanding people.
Obviously, there's so many more strings
to your bow in terms of like media and
podcasting and authorship. But over
those since 2001, we're in 2025 now,
just over two decades.
My first question is um
how has your perspective on How has the
world changed in those last two decades
in your view?
Unions would say before any
great progression,
there is a regression.
And I think that
that
when you look at various admin- I know
you have a very global audience. When
you look at administrations,
political administrations across the
world, and you look at
how power is being used right now,
it will tell you a lot about what
they're afraid of. Mhm.
What What is that face? We're going to
have to pause it.
>> I was thinking about a conversation I
had recently with my my best friends. It
must have been this weekend. Yeah, it
was this weekend cuz it was my friend's
birthday in Manchester, the UK, so we
flew in.
Um and we had a conversation about how
the leading political narrative at the
moment, this might be adjacent to what
you were saying, but it's the way I
interpreted it. The leading political
narrative at the moment that seems to be
getting people elected is if you say
those people with that skin color are
the reason for the pain and anguish in
your life, it's actually the people
below you that are coming over the
border or crossing the the English
Channel on dinghies that are ruining
your life, and it seems to be like a
really effective narrative to 100%.
empower both in the US and the UK. Like,
the central narrative that is swaying
elections it seems at the moment in the
UK and the US is
those brown people on that boat or
coming over the border are the reason
for the pain in your life,
and it seems to work, and that seems to
be the thing getting power. So, that's
kind of what ran through my head when I
heard this idea of like power and what
you're scared of. I actually think I
inverted it to if I can tell you what to
be scared of or find the thing you might
be scared of or whatever, then I get
power. But maybe it goes the other way, too.
too.
I don't think we'll ever talk about
anything more important than this, to be
honest with you. That's why I thought
your response was so interesting cuz you
you you may if I was going to like do
the text box above your face, Mhm.
it would have said, "Well, holy [ __ ]
That's interesting." Because
we when you use power, especially power
over, cuz there's multiple kinds of
power. There's power with and to
and power within.
So, people that use power with and to
and power within work from a belief
system that's completely different.
We believe that power is infinite and
can grow when shared.
People who use power over
work from a belief system that power is
finite, like pizza, and if I give you
any, I have a deficit.
So, it's got to be hoarded and protected
and not shared.
Power over
is really important to understand
because when people are using power
over, they're definitely letting you
know what they're afraid of because
that's what they're focused on.
And they're tapping into, and I think
this is absolutely true,
if you give people
someone to dislike
and blame for their pain,
and they look different than the people
who are voting, you [clears throat] will
win 100 times out of 100.
If you say, "I see your pain. I can tell
you exactly the source of it, and I can
fix this for you.
And [clears throat] the source of it is
going to be easy to see. You're not
going to see yourself in them." Mhm.
Mhm.
So, that narrative that you were talking
about, it is a full circle. People in power
power
use power to address issues that they're
afraid of.
They gain power by leveraging fear and
giving people an enemy.
That's how this works.
It works like this I mean, I spend 95%
of my time in organizations
working with C-suite leaders and senior
leaders. This This is how it works in
organizations, how it works in
political, you know, how it works in
faith communities. This is how power
works in general. So, power over is a
very specific kind of power,
and it's especially dangerous because in
order to maintain it,
you have to engage in periodic bouts of
cruelty towards vulnerable populations.
You have to remind people what you're
capable of.
So, there's four types of power you you
you speak about in um Damn, you
[clears throat] have that in your notes?
Why are you surprised? I don't know.
It's It's four types of power and
leadership you speak about. There's the
power over, which is controlling or
exploiting and there's power with
finding common ground and building
collective strength, power to which is
giving others agency and recognizing
their potential, and power within which
is honoring differences and self-worth.
So, as a leader of a business, if I were
to be successful,
are you telling me that I need to stay
away from power over and adopt another
power within this list of four?
Yeah, I think
what we've seen be very successful over
time is power with, power to, and power within.
within. So,
So,
collaborative power, co-creation power, self-awareness,
self-awareness,
metacognition, knowing yourself, knowing
how you think and learn. So, power with
and power to. Power over is
excruciatingly difficult to maintain.
We're not neurobiologically hardwired
hardwired
to stay in fear for very long. So,
So,
if I work for you if I work for you,
and you're using power over to lead me,
you're threatening me with my job,
you're threatening me with consequences,
you're threatening me with demotion,
one of two things is going to happen for
me neurobiologically. I am either going to
to
just become numb to it. It's not It's
not going to be able to You're not going
to maintain I can't maintain that
constant level of fear. It's just too demanding.
demanding. >> [snorts]
>> [snorts]
>> Just physically demanding.
Or I might get hyper
normalized. I might just like this is
This is what I work in. This is like
crazy. This is it, you know? But every
now and then you're going to have to do
something that demonstrates to me how
chaotic and cruel you can actually be.
Like you're going to have to engage in
periodic acts of cruelty to remind me
that the fear is real and to put me back
in it.
And so, one of the things you're seeing
right now, I mean like we in in the US,
the deportation and immigration issues.
This is not a president that has, you
know, tightened his belt on immigration
more than other previous presidents. But
we've never seen masked people
grabbing people off the street while
children hold on to their legs
screaming, "Mom, mom, mom." We've We've
never seen that before, right? But we've
had other presidents
the deportation numbers that we're seeing.
seeing.
But we've never seen that level of
cruelty in display.
That is a real display of cruelty as a
reminder of who who holds power and who
does not.
It also makes me think of relationships
when you're talking about
you know, how people are controlled with
power over. A lot of people talk about
like sort of narcissistic relationships
or abusive relationships where
they don't feel like they can leave or
you know, they don't leave and they end
up becoming acclimatized to the treatment.
treatment.
I'm a big systems theory I'm a systems
theory person. I think in systems theory
I was trained in systems theory. I think
if you don't understand systems systems
theory, at least if you're leading an
organization right now, you're going to
the complexity inside and outside of
organizations is such that we need a
framework to understand how all these
individual systems are bumping up
against each other. Like you you
probably bump up against
a hundred systems a day, right?
>> Yeah. And so, what I would imagine, the
story I would make up about your success,
success,
cuz this is true of any systems theory,
is in order for systems to thrive and grow,
grow,
they have to keep permeable boundaries.
Meaning they have to allow feedback to
flow in and out from other systems. Mhm. >> [clears throat]
>> [clears throat]
>> To be aware. So, I'm just going to give
you a very good example. I'm very
excited about the female
the experts you had on Mhm.
around menopause,
women's life. I mean, I'm so excited
about that. Mhm. Like just to be honest
with you, like Mary Claire is my doctor.
Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dr. Haver. So,
So, um
what is interesting is the systems that
You know, and the systems that would be
sending feedback that hey, this is not
for me. I'm not clicking on this.
I I've shared that first one with a
hundred people. >> [laughter]
>> [laughter]
>> You know, because there's a reality to
our lives that is uncomfortable for people.
people.
But those are your partners and your
moms and your, you know, and your bosses
and it's real. And I can guarantee you
this was happening with the dudes.
Yeah. Like it'd be a gazillion dollar
whatever is over a trillion, gazillion.
I don't know. Um but just thinking about
that one podcast and the systems that
you're touching. Health, women's issues,
um family systems are affected. Like
that podcast hits 20 systems that I can
think of in my head right now. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> [clears throat]
>> [clears throat]
>> The divorce rates of people of women in
their 50s and 60s. Mhm. I mean, right?
Yes or no?
>> Yeah, 100% yeah. Right. So, a healthy
system has permeable boundaries, meaning
feedback is flowing in and out all the time.
time.
What happens when the world gets complex
is we start not wanting the feedback.
The complexity is too big. So, we start
shutting down those permeable
boundaries. Well, what happens to a
system where the boundaries are no
longer permeable? It atrophies.
And in the in the process of atrophying,
the system becomes self-referencing. Are
we good? We're great.
Are we right? We're right. Are we on
target? We're on target. Because the
boundaries of the system is are no
longer craving outside feedback even
when it's tough. And in businesses today,
today,
the geopolitical realities,
the market changes, AI, I mean, it's
crazy. Mhm. And so, our
our predisposition
predisposition
to shut down uncertainty and complexity
is the biggest threat to the systems in
which we work and live.
The self-protect, close the wall, put up
the drawbridge, fill the moat with piranhas.
piranhas.
We just don't have that luxury. We've
got to keep the the boundaries
permeable. We've got to keep learning,
guessing, unlearning, relearning. One of
the added complexities is the rise of
algorithms. And And actually, when I
think about algorithms that are powered
by AI, they're going to be even better
at knowing what you want to see so that
you spend time so that you consume more
adverts, which means
probably the best thing to show me is
either something really fearful or to to
confirm what I already believe.
>> 100%. An algorithm that was doing the
opposite probably wouldn't be an
enjoyable experience for the average
human brain. It would cause too much
dissonance, too much discomfort.
>> But great for democracy. Great. Yeah,
fantastic. But terrible for for running
a business and selling ads. So, any
company that takes that approach will go
bankrupt. This is why TikTok I think
have been so successful is the algorithm
is I don't use TikTok. It's I have a
TikTok account. I don't have the app on
my phone. But um from what I hear is
it's so unbelievably addictive. People
describe it to me and they're like, "Oh
my god, it's so addictive." But this
[ __ ] is the devil. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
But it's
people are driven by incentives, right?
And you know, your
your share price is going to tumble and
you're going to be fired.
You're going to lose your your status
I'm playing devil's advocate. Obviously,
I'm not saying >> No,
>> No,
I No, I agree.
What do you think the solution is?
And what responsibility do
the bros who run these tech platforms have?
have?
It's complicated.
Well, I agree. I'm not looking for an
easy answer. Go ahead. Hit me. Well, and
I just think it's complicated because
what what an objective party would say,
who's just looking at the incentives of
these groups of people, is if they don't
do it,
then China will. So, even with AI now,
you know what I mean? I'm like I've sat
with all these experts and I keep
hitting up against this wall, which is
okay, if we just banned people in the
United States from pursuing this super
intelligence strategy, then Russia and
China get there first, then the United
States, unfortunately, are going to end
up being
China's French bulldog.
And actually, I can't refute that. I go,
"No, you're right." Cuz we would you'd
have to literally lease the technology
off them. It will be so powerful and
give such an economic advantage that you
will have to lease it off China. So,
you're like, "Okay, I guess Sam Altman
does need to crack on."
Or else
So, it's complicated.
>> I mean, this is where I end up every time.
time.
I mean, look what happened with TikTok.
China made an algorithm. It was
unbelievably addictive. The United
States have just had to buy it off them.
Because they were scared that the data
was going to be used against the United
States. It's a prime example. Like China
were like, "Fuck it, we don't care."
Yeah, right. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
And they made an unbelievable algorithm
called TikTok, which just captivated,
you know, the youth are all just like
losing their brains. So,
I don't know. I don't know. It's tough.
It's rough.
Spiritual crisis.
Yeah, I mean, you just laid it out.
You just laid it out.
We're emotionally dysregulated. We're
distrustful of each other. We don't
trust ourselves very much and we're
disconnected. I can't give up on people,
though. I'm not built that way.
Like I just believe that we are more
good than greedy.
You know, I I was in conversation with
Trevor Noah at an event.
And I mentioned this term that I I was
really excited about
And he challenged me on it.
And I said, I think what we need is
cognitive sovereignty. We need to
wrestle control
away from the algorithms
and decide what we consume, what we
read, how we think, think critically.
We need
to think about our attention and our focus
focus
as commodities that people are after.
>> Because they're after them, right? >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
He had an interesting point though. He
always has interesting points, don't you think?
think?
>> tough to to talk to Trevor because he's
so he's always got an interesting point.
>> He's always got an interesting point.
Damn it.
Um and he's funny. But he said, "No, we
need less cognitive sovereignty, Brené."
And I'm like, "What do you mean?" He
goes, "Everything's about the for you
page. Everything's for you. We need
communal sovereignty." He's like, "You
know, the whole problem is that your for
you page is completely sovereign. You
intellectually and spiritually" I'm I'm
I'm paraphrasing what he said. I'm sure
it was like
funnier and better looking, but um
um but
but
he he and then then I was trying to
think about like I guess maybe that's
not the right term. But let me let me
tell you what scares me the most.
I'm in I'm in some weird rooms because
of the nature of my job. I'm in rooms
where the people who run these platforms
and own and you know, that own the CEOs
of these business and the founders are
in these rooms. And I hear them talking
and I hear things that are so misaligned
that it panics me. So I hear someone
say, "Hey, you know, tech billionaire,
what what should my kids study? I'm
worried for my kids." Well, they should
study coding, physics, you know, and
then 5 minutes later as if that answer
didn't happen, someone will say,
"To what do you attribute your success?
I mean, deeply when you think about it."
And the same person will say,
"My deep philosophy and the Stoics."
And so then I'm thinking to myself,
well, which is it, dude?
And then I then I start to extrapolate
from there and wonder
if there is a thinking class that's emerging
emerging
where they're like, "We're going to read philosophy
philosophy
and we're going to read
the liberal arts and we're going to
study history.
And the rest of you, just keep
scrolling. Don't worry about the big words.
words.
Well, we'll handle all the big words for
you." Like it's like when they asked
Steve Jobs, "Well, your kids must love
the iPad."
Steve Jobs said,
"My kids don't have an iPad."
And then his biographer who spent time
with his family said, "He wasn't
kidding. There's no technology. At
dinner, they're talking about art and history."
history."
Mhm. The hardest chapter I've ever
written in my life of any book was the
chapter on grounded confidence in Strong Ground.
Ground.
What is the set of skill sets and
mindsets that I think we're going to
need to future ready and future proof
ourselves to be leaders moving forward?
And I think what was hard about it was
the complexity of it was probably a
combination of 30 different mindsets and
skill sets.
And when I was done,
you know, for commercial reasons,
someone on my team immediately said,
"Jeez, this is like a if you can train
people in these things, this is really
this is like really important."
And the first thing I thought was [ __ ]
that, my kids.
Train train schmain. I get it. It's
important. Like we'll we'll we'll we'll
develop some instrumentation, measure
it. We'll train folks in it. I think
it's trainable, it's teachable, it's measurable.
measurable.
But really, I want this for my kids.
I want my kids to know systems thinking.
I want my kids to know anticipatory
thinking, situational awareness,
temporal awareness.
I want my kids to have this complex set
of skills.
Do I want them to have jobs one day
where all they're worried about a
shareholder value? Really, no.
I want them to own their mind, own their
intellect, own their attention, and own
their focus.
I want them to read.
I want them to understand history.
history.
I want them to develop pattern
recognition skills cuz these are the
skills of the future. I want them to be
able to hold the tension of nuance and paradox
paradox
when everything in their brain is
saying, "Pick one, pick one, reconcile.
I'm uncomfortable. Pick one, reconcile.
I'm uncomfortable." That's neurobiology.
In those 20 in those 20 years of your 20
plus years of your career, what have you
been exposed to from a 30,000 foot
perspective? Like what
what are the the wide range of reference
points that you draw upon
to be the person that you are today? And
you know, cuz you've had you it feels
like you've got a very wide range of
references. Clearly, you know, you're
you're someone that cares a lot about
history. That comes through in your
answers, but I'm wondering in your
career like what are what are the
experiences that you've had? Have you
been working directly with patients? Is
it aca- academic reference points you're
drawing upon?
Yeah, um
no one's ever asked me this, which I've
been grateful that no one's asked me. Um
so what a pain in the ass, but um
because no one's going to like the
answer. I'm excited about the answer now.
now.
Everything. Like every single thing.
Um yes, I you know, I love history. Yes, I
I
read academic papers all the time. Yes,
I wake up in the morning and I read
because of the nature of my work, I read
The Wall Street Journal, The New York
Times, Bloomberg, The Financial Times.
Like I yeah, I mean I I I read and a
lot, but there's a chapter in the book
that was one of my favorite to write on
the transitions home from work.
Mhm. And how how how tough they are.
And how if you're like me, you've had a
very frustrated partner look at you more
than once in your life and say, "Hey,
I know it was stressful. I don't work
for you.
Change gears." Yeah.
Have you ever had that?
>> No comment. No comment. >> [laughter]
>> [laughter] >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
I use a metaphor
in that book in this chapter
of a lock.
And how did that come to me?
Because I was reading the book series
The Rivers of London.
And in that book series,
there are two gods of the Thames.
And the Teddington Lock is where out
right outside of London in Teddington is
where custody changes for them. So I
went to the Teddington Lock cuz I was
interested. I met the lockmaster
that runs the lock.
She gave me a 3-hour lesson that day. We
let narrowboats through the Thames.
I learned how lock works and that's the
metaphor that I use to talk about the
research on what do we do when we spend
all day locking in,
hyperfocused, compartmentalizing,
getting [ __ ] done.
And then instead of going home to our
partner, when we get home, we spend 30
minutes in the garage on TikTok cuz we
can't bear to go in.
So why do we do that? Because we need a
lock through period. We need time to go
into a chamber metaphorically,
change levels,
let go of where we were, lower ourselves
to the rhythm of what we're doing now.
Cognitively we'd call it cognitive and
domain shifting.
And we need time. So I looked at the
lockmaster at uh Teddington and said,
"This should just take you a long time.
Can we get this chamber filled up a
little bit quicker?"
And she said, "Locking through takes
what locking through takes. If you rush
it, you risk capsizing."
We get home and then we walk in the back
door and it's like, "I can't find my
shin guards. I think I left them on the
pitch. Where are my goggles, Mom? Oh my
god, you didn't sign the permission
slip. I had to sneak into the zoo." You
know, and you're like,
"Take me back to work where I'm the boss
of everything." You [laughter] know. So
where do I learn those things? Well,
cognitive and domain shifting come out
of psychology.
Gemma, the lockmaster at Teddington,
there's wisdom everywhere.
I put it together as your stories and
metaphors. I mean, another thing in the
book. I mean, I'm standing on the
sideline at DKR, the University of Texas
Longhorn football stadium. Um and I'm
standing with Emmanuel Acho.
Do you know Emmanuel? No. Yeah, he's
great. He played for the Longhorns. He
played for the NFL. Now he's a writer.
So I'm standing there and we're watching
the game and I look at him and I go,
"How would you define pocket presence?"
And pocket presence is an American
football term. So do you know American
football? Okay. So I'm a quarterback.
I'm going to get the ball and I have to
throw the ball or run the ball or hand
off the ball to get the ball down the
pitch, down the field, right? >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> [clears throat]
>> [clears throat]
>> And when when the ball is snapped and
the ball is put into motion,
there's about 1,200 lb of really angry
people trying to drive me into the ground.
ground.
The people that are protecting me from
those defensive guys are called my
offensive line. Mhm. And the way they
[clears throat] do it is they form a
pocket around the quarterback.
And the quarterback uses that time to
decide where am I going to throw the
ball? Am I going to run the ball? And
pocket presence is the ability of a
quarterback to use the on average 2.8 to
3 seconds he has to read the field,
understand where the defenders are, and
make a decision.
And so when I asked Emmanuel Acho, "How
would you define pocket presence?" He said,
said,
and I want you to think about this in
terms of your business.
The ability to read the field without
seeing all of it.
And trusting your team well enough
to make a move
even though you can't see everything. Mhm.
Mhm.
What are the skill sets you need right
there? One, temporal awareness.
You got to know how much time you have
to get rid of that ball and get it down
the field. They they say Tom Brady, who
played for the Patriots, is any of this
ringing a bell?
>> Yeah, I know who you mean. Great. Tom Brady.
Brady.
They said his pocket presence was so
good, he could tell where his offensive
linemen were by the vibrations through
his his cleats on the field.
So, temporal awareness, situational
awareness, what's going on, anticipatory awareness.
awareness.
Think about a great football player.
Right? Think about Masala.
You don't kick the ball to where the
striker is. You kick the ball to where
the striker's going to be. Mhm. So,
anticipatory and situational awareness, right?
right? >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
Pattern recognition.
Have I been in this situation before? Do
I know how to, you know,
where is the goalie in the cage? Where
are they standing right now? Like and so
I'll take my inspiration from sports all
the time, which is why there's so many
sports metaphors.
Right? Mhm. >> [clears throat]
>> [clears throat]
>> I think there's not a better sports a
better metaphor to describe work right
now than
American League Football.
One of the things that um perhaps is is
throughout your work is this idea of
connection. I did a mushroom
I did magic mushrooms with my girlfriend
a couple of years ago, the first time
I've ever done it. And um
the message that came through for me was
it was about connection. And that word
has had a fond place in my heart ever
since. It's been really, really
important. And we live in a society
that's more lonely than ever before,
more disconnected in many ways, as you
described when you're referencing the
spiritual crisis that we're living in.
This word connection, what does that
mean? Does it mean on an individual
basis? Does it mean me having friends
and relationships? Is that connection?
Is that the type of connection I should
be looking for? Or does it need Do I
need to like Do you think people need to
ladder up further to
their city, their town, their world,
to the community, to something bigger? God.
God.
What What does connection mean in this context?
context? >> Yes.
I think the answer to that question is
yes. We're neuro- neurobiologically
hardwired to be in connection with other
people. And in the absence of
connection, there's always suffering.
Always suffering in the absence of
connection. So, I think
I mean, just how we're built, mirror
neurons, you know, our ability to sync
up neurobiologically when we feel
connected and are hearing each other.
So, to me, connection is the ability to
be in a relationship where we can both
give and receive, where we feel seen,
heard, believed, valued.
That is that human connection is really
important on a micro level, one-on-one
with other human beings.
I think a sense of belonging and a sense
of place,
and I don't know that that necessarily
needs to be a location, but
a sense of being a part of something
bigger than you,
I think is also important. So, love and belonging,
belonging,
I I think spirituality I define
spirituality is being inextricably
connected to other people by something
bigger than us. Maybe that's love, maybe
that's God,
maybe that's fishing. Like I I you know,
it's different for other people. For me,
I'm faith is one of my values and I'm a
a pretty serious God person.
Um I'm a pretty deep person of faith. I
guess I would ask somebody,
"What is that thing
that transcends difference?
difference?
Political difference, ideological
difference, race, gender, you know,
belief systems, class, what is it
that brings you to a common humanity place?"
Like for me, it's God. That's it's a big challenge.
challenge.
Cuz like I I try to work from an ethos
where I try to find God in the face of
everybody that I meet, even if I want to
punch you in the throat. I try to like
Like like that's my thing. In some way,
I'm connected to you. Mhm. Whether I
like it or not and whether I like you or not.
And when you talk about belonging, it's
interesting in your book Braving the
Wilderness, which I think the question's
kind of summed up by the subtitle here.
The quest for true belonging and the
courage to stand alone. This appears to
be a dichotomy or a contradiction. Mhm.
To belong, but also to stand alone. >> Mhm.
Why are both of these important? Why is
it important to belong? What does that
mean? And And why is it also important to
to
stand alone?
Cuz I don't think you can truly belong
to anything or any or or any group if
you don't belong to yourself first.
True belonging
requires us to be who we are,
not to change who we are. That's fitting
in. Fitting in is the greatest threat to belonging.
belonging. Mhm.
Mhm.
Which takes us both back to our
childhoods, right?
>> Mhm. Yeah. Fit in. Fit in. Fit in. Fit in.
in.
The problem is that that chameleon
means that in order to fit in, the first
person you betray is yourself. We've got
to be able to stand alone.
And that's what's happening right now in
the world. I mean, if I if I look back
at Braving the Wilderness,
that was maybe the only prophetic book
that I think I've ever written. Like
that Like Like that I don't think I'm
profit like, but man, did I call what
was happening in terms of the big sort
into ideological bunkers, where we are
going to get to a place where
I don't even know you, but I'm going to
call you friend because we hate the same people.
And you over there,
I actually do love you.
You're a family member of mine.
But I'm not, you know, because we don't
believe in the same things,
you have no meaning in my life. Like
it's like we have gotten to the place where
where
ideological bunkers,
and those are so dangerous cuz here you
and I like let's say let's say that we
have the same belief around immigration.
Um so we're going to flip this table
over and we're going to get behind it in
our ideological bunker and we're going
to be like, "Yeah, we're right and these
guys are [ __ ] crazy and [ __ ] y'all."
You know, and then one day I'm going to
turn to you and say, "You know, one
thing I'm wondering about
is how are we going to solve the problem >> [clears throat]
>> [clears throat]
>> with the folks coming over
in the dinghies
from France? Cuz I don't think we're
going to be able to go without solving it
it
because we do have an employment issue
and a housing crisis." And then you go,
"You're out."
My My care for you, my connection with
you, completely dependent
on you not questioning anything we
What's real connection? Like I got to
know what's going on in your mind cuz
your face is like We got to play poker.
We got to put that on our agenda. >> [laughter]
>> [laughter]
>> What are you thinking? I was just
thinking about being a podcaster and I
sit here with all types of people. So, I
had Kamala Harris sat here
>> Mhm. uh
3 or 4 days ago and I'll have someone on
the right sat here. You know, and then
I'll have maybe Michelle Obama, then
I'll have Jordan Peterson, then I'll
have the opposite of whatever Jordan
Peterson is. And I was just thinking
about how um
how that's also kind of made me feel
like I don't belong
because that is quite rare.
There's probably not a podcaster on
Earth that has had both Michelle Obama
and Jordan Peterson.
No. Yeah. And then Kamala Harris after
that. Like I didn't manage to scare
Michelle off. I didn't scare Jordan off.
And so
you get you kind of get attacked from
both sides. Oh, I mean, look,
if you're not if you're not
getting threatening [ __ ]
from the far
here, the far left or the far right, if
you're not getting both, you're not
doing your job.
>> Amen. Yeah.
>> Period. But it's tough. Oh God, it is heartbreaking.
heartbreaking. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
It will break your heart and it will
remind you of why standing alone
is on the front of that book. Mhm.
Because what it will do it is it is
Winnow the right word? It will narrow
your belonging, your true belonging,
down to
a very few people.
>> I mean, I completely understand how it
happens that a podcaster like me will
end up picking a side because there is
safety in numbers. Well, cuz there's an
ideological bunker cuz we flipped the
table over. 100% At any point, you know,
when the left attacks you, I'm like,
"Wow, the right looks pretty." When the
right attacks you, you go, "Oh, the left
looks pretty."
Because standing in the in no man's land is
is
is not the place you want to be.
I know I'm never going to succeed in
this. Like I know I'm never going to
succeed in converting people converting
people to be nuanced and to not get
viscerally angry when I have someone on
the show who's on the right or
viscerally angry when I have someone on
the show who's on the left. I'm already
aware that when the Kamala episode comes
out, it's just going to be a bunch of
people that didn't listen and within the
first 3 minutes, the comment section's
just going to be [ __ ] you.
>> Yeah. And I'm like part of me is trying
to win that war with my audience, where
they too will just listen.
And I know that you don't agree with the
person, but can you just listen?
Cuz that's what I do, and it's not some
act I'm putting on. It's not like I walk
out there and I start but I I'm
right-wing in my kitchen or left-wing in
my kitchen. Genuinely, the brain where
my brain works is oh, I see this this
good in this individual.
And then I meet someone else who's on
the other side and I say oh, there's a
couple of points of good that I agree
upon I agree with them on this.
That's how I am, and it feels so weird.
Because when you go on the internet, you
don't find yourself
being compelled by either side entirely. No.
No.
No, and I think it's really confusing,
and the only limit I have really is I am
not probably going to have a
If your beliefs question my humanity.
Okay. That that's going to be my line.
That that's going to be that's going to
be the line for me is going to be
if you're cruel
or name-calling Yeah.
or if your core beliefs about who I am Mhm.
Mhm. >> [clears throat]
>> [clears throat]
>> or who other people are are dehumanizing.
dehumanizing.
I I I can't I can't that I can't do
because now I've betrayed myself in
order to make a political point about
nuance. Yeah. Because that because you know
know
dehumanization is a really interesting
and hard thing.
When you study when you look at the
research of people who study dehumanization
dehumanization
and you we talked about earlier with the
There is a circle of moral inclusion.
We are not built
we are not hardwired to hurt each other,
to kill each other
It's not we're not wired for it
actually. So, in order
to do that
you you've got a person here inside your
moral inclusion.
In order to be okay with that, you've
got to push them outside of moral
inclusion to be morally excluded from
somebody you see as human and worthy of
moral inclusion. And the first step to
moral exclusion
moving people out of a safety zone where
you don't do horrible things to them
the first way to move people out is
language. throughout history
you hear people in this administration
calling a a community of immigrants an infestation.
infestation.
The same way we would talk about animals
or rats.
You know, and so my only limit
to hard conversation is
is
if you're operating from an ideology
where women are dogs
immigrants are illegals. You know, if
you're operating from that place of
you are too dangerous for me.
But other than that, I'd probably be
willing to have a conversation with
anyone. But I can understand why people
pick sides. I tell you what, it is
lonely. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.
It's nice to hear that. It's really nice
Yeah.
We've talked about it quite a lot, me
and Jack um who's been producing the
show since the very beginning. Uh we've
we've talked a lot about how
we understand the temptation to pick a
side. And actually, one of the greatest
compliments a journalist has ever given me
me
is they wrote in the article, and this
wasn't a journalist that liked me, they
just said um
we're unable to
ascertain which political party he is
part of.
I thought that was a great compliment because
because
I mean
>> it means that
That's that's a journal that's a
journalistic ethos. I think they would
want to pin me down and say he's [ __ ]
they'd love to say I'm right-wing or
Yeah. something else.
But they said um in a not very nice
piece they'd written about me whatever,
they said that he
we're unable to figure out what side
he's part of. And I think that's a
compliment because it's it's true and it
I think it allows me to do my job better
that I don't have too many
preconceptions when I meet people. I try
to meet people for the first time.
Which I enjoy. I think you're pretty
good at that cuz you are insatiably
curious. Mhm. It's it's lovely and terrible.
terrible.
Why terrible? It's terrible for an avoidant.
avoidant.
I found this out recently. I've known it
my whole life, but I found it out
recently cuz I had a conversation with
someone. If someone's I think if
someone's uncomfortable with
vulnerability, then I'm like their
[ __ ] worst nightmare.
>> YOU ARE. >> [laughter]
>> [laughter]
>> WHICH IS INTERESTING CUZ I DON'T EXPECT
YOU as super vulnerable. Really? Uh
Uh
Maybe not.
>> Carefully optimistic vulnerable. Yeah,
that's probably Like like you're you're
cognitively a believer Yeah.
>> and trying to move the rest of you to it.
You've got the journalistic ethos of
equal opportunity
insatiable curious guy, right? >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
What do you think the responsibility is
to vet or understand the credibility
especially when it comes to science or
those kind of things of what their guest
is saying.
I think that we
the school of podcasters haven't really
we don't have the um
the ex the training that journalists do.
So, we're almost catching up in that
regard, especially if you become a big
podcaster because you're kind of held
you're held at a in a different level.
So, more recently, one of the things we
do is we we've hired a I mean this
recently was a year and a half ago. We
hired a PhD who does exactly that, who
after this comes out will go through
everything that you said and then put on
not within scientific consensus. But
is a decision. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
It's not a choice without consequence
What led you to that choice?
When your podcast reaches lots of people
you're forced It's kind of going goes
what I said earlier about the political
stuff. You're forced to really get clear
on what you believe and like what
matters to you. And one of the things
that matters to me is that the stuff we
put into the world, we feel like it's
helping people even if it's not nice.
And it kind of goes to something that I
read in your work, which is like our
objective isn't to be
nice, it's to be kind. Oh, yeah. And so,
for example, my convers- the
conversations we have about AI, like I'm
well aware that that's not going to
necessarily make you feel great. But
But
I think the avoidance of discomfort in
in through history Oh god. hasn't led to
great places. So, like if you think
there's a bus coming, I can you know, it's
it's
I can pretend there isn't, but if I
think that there might be a bus coming
and if if experts in are telling me
there's a bus coming, I think we should
have a conversation about the bus
coming. And actually, me having that
conversation, I get messages all the
time which is like please stop talking
about this subject. It doesn't make me
feel good.
I'm very anchored to like what my my my
job is here, and I think it's we can
push people further
towards uh
honest conversations.
So, when the podcast got bigger and you
get more and more you get attacked more
for any any of your guests that you have
on, you have to get clear on what
matters to you and what your job is. And
so, one of the things I thought is
actually when we have these
conversations, I want them to be as
accurate as they possibly can be.
For the listener who might be confused
cuz it's a confusing world in this new
world of democratized media. So
So
we do that.
>> I really respect that. I just want to
say um I don't think
that that choice
is the easy choice.
What is the easy choice do you think?
The easy choice is
I'm going to let you
say whatever you want
and I'll let my listeners sort out if
it's real or not. Mhm.
Mhm. >> [clears throat]
>> [clears throat]
>> And I'll take no responsibility for the credibility
credibility
or the facts that are being presented.
Mhm. Um
what I think is interesting about what
you're doing is
it just seems like a very solid approach where
I'm a big believer in science. You know,
I'm married to a physician. I'm a social
scientist. Like I'm I'm I'm not going to
be the golden child of this
administration when it comes to science
for sure. Like I have a I love science Mhm.
Mhm.
shirt that I wear with a DNA scarf. So,
like I'm I'm like I'm very real about that.
that.
I also don't think
that everything that we see
that is projected as peer-reviewed
clinical trial, you know, I think
challenges to that system are also
important. I think science cannot be a
self-referencing system anymore than any
other system can be. So, to have people
that have different opinions or new
opinions Mhm. on
but to let your listeners or your
viewers know that this is not an opinion
where there's a lot of a data collected
or that this is a controversial opinion
is respecting people's cognitive self-determination.
self-determination.
I I just think it's a it's it's an
interesting way to do it. I just I I think
think
I launched the podcast and it became
very big during COVID.
I got you. Yeah.
Yeah.
And so
Houston is home to the biggest medical
center in the world.
Like in the world.
And I live in the medical center area.
In the beginning there were just, you
know, it just there never stopped being
funerals for physicians and people
working on COVID. And so to hear on
podcast that it doesn't exist. Yeah. Or that you can use, you know,
Yeah. Or that you can use, you know, Windex or you know, like some [ __ ]
Windex or you know, like some [ __ ] like that.
like that. I I just started to and then I got into
I I just started to and then I got into a little dust-up around it in my own
a little dust-up around it in my own situation. And so
situation. And so I'm always interested as we enter this
I'm always interested as we enter this world in
world in platform and podcast responsibility.
platform and podcast responsibility. It is a it's a slippery slope and it's
It is a it's a slippery slope and it's um
um >> Berry. And there's no
>> Berry. And there's no there's no perfect outcome. Like you
there's no perfect outcome. Like you don't want to go too far either way,
don't want to go too far either way, right? You don't want to like have the
right? You don't want to like have the government get involved and tell you
government get involved and tell you what truth is or
what truth is or >> Right. But you also don't want to stray
>> Right. But you also don't want to stray into um conspiracy land and um Right.
into um conspiracy land and um Right. >> away from science because
>> away from science because you know.
There are things that are knowable. Yeah, there are things that are
Yeah, there are things that are knowable. But
knowable. But >> Yeah. But
>> Yeah. But I don't know. I I I just think it's an
I don't know. I I I just think it's an interesting question for this time and I
interesting question for this time and I think it's an interesting question when
think it's an interesting question when you have a platform that's powerful.
you have a platform that's powerful. And I think if you're doing the best you
And I think if you're doing the best you can to make decisions based What What is
can to make decisions based What What is the question
the question >> [clears throat]
>> [clears throat] >> that drives your decision-making? For
>> that drives your decision-making? For me? No, like just in general. Yeah,
me? No, like just in general. Yeah, I got yours. You want you want to you
I got yours. You want you want to you want to help your listeners and you want
want to help your listeners and you want to do good. Yeah. Um that's a different
to do good. Yeah. Um that's a different thing than downloads.
thing than downloads. You can do both. You can do both. But if
You can do both. You can do both. But if your only filter Well, oh you you'd go
your only filter Well, oh you you'd go for [ __ ] total conspiracy. Yeah.
for [ __ ] total conspiracy. Yeah. >> Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. So I
>> Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. So I just think it's I just think it's an
just think it's I just think it's an interesting question. I don't have an
interesting question. I don't have an answer. I just know that it's an
answer. I just know that it's an important question. Yeah, and you know
important question. Yeah, and you know what? I'll be honest so as um
what? I'll be honest so as um I mean we're not journalists we're not
I mean we're not journalists we're not journalists here. So we don't really
journalists here. So we don't really understand the rigor and I've got a lot
understand the rigor and I've got a lot of respect for journalists and the the
of respect for journalists and the the effort they've put in to understand the
effort they've put in to understand the journalistic method and all those
journalistic method and all those things. I feel like we're somewhat
things. I feel like we're somewhat catching up. We didn't this podcast went
catching up. We didn't this podcast went from zero to 70 million people a month
from zero to 70 million people a month in
in 4 and 1/2 years or something. Hard. So
4 and 1/2 years or something. Hard. So and we're just [ __ ] holding on. Like
and we're just [ __ ] holding on. Like me and Jack didn't run a podcast before.
me and Jack didn't run a podcast before. So I didn't run one before and so
So I didn't run one before and so we're now catching up and part of the
we're now catching up and part of the part of the way that we're shaped is
part of the way that we're shaped is with feedback and you get lots of
with feedback and you get lots of feedback. Don't have this person. I'll
feedback. Don't have this person. I'll never speak to this person again. Don't
never speak to this person again. Don't know. And you kind of get back that
know. And you kind of get back that stuff off but if there's any ever
stuff off but if there's any ever anything that actually feedback that
anything that actually feedback that actually isn't contra- contradiction
actually isn't contra- contradiction that does test your own mission or your
that does test your own mission or your own values, then you listen and you will
own values, then you listen and you will you know
you know you can start to innovate and one of the
you can start to innovate and one of the things that we thought was smart was to
things that we thought was smart was to have the pop-ups on screen which
have the pop-ups on screen which everybody is probably familiar with by
everybody is probably familiar with by now. And it's a balancing act. We don't
now. And it's a balancing act. We don't want to completely discredit everything
want to completely discredit everything that a guest has to say but we also just
that a guest has to say but we also just want to give context. And that's kind of
want to give context. And that's kind of context what they're saying. If
context what they're saying. If something's ridiculous we'll just remove
something's ridiculous we'll just remove it. Like if something's absolutely we
it. Like if something's absolutely we will not publish the episode is probably
will not publish the episode is probably a better way of saying it. We had a
a better way of saying it. We had a couple of episodes where people said
couple of episodes where people said some guest said some things which were
some guest said some things which were just
just absolutely [ __ ] crazy. You don't need
absolutely [ __ ] crazy. You don't need a PhD to know that
a PhD to know that you can't exercise by lying on the
you can't exercise by lying on the ground. Like I think this one guest had
ground. Like I think this one guest had said to me
said to me that you can build your muscles just by
that you can build your muscles just by laying on your back or whatever and
laying on your back or whatever and not doing anything. We just didn't
not doing anything. We just didn't publish the episode.
publish the episode. >> I can just say as a PhD that I have
>> I can just say as a PhD that I have attempted that.
attempted that. Yeah, it doesn't work. And it was FOR
Yeah, it doesn't work. And it was FOR JACK [ __ ]
JACK [ __ ] >> [laughter]
>> [laughter] >> I THINK JACK MADE A GOOD POINT. I GIVE
>> I THINK JACK MADE A GOOD POINT. I GIVE YOU A PHD on the just laying still.
YOU A PHD on the just laying still. Yeah.
Yeah. No, I think that I respect the approach.
No, I think that I respect the approach. And it's
And it's >> one of the reasons I decided to come on.
>> one of the reasons I decided to come on. Cuz I respect the approach. We're not
Cuz I respect the approach. We're not perfect but we're trying.
perfect but we're trying. And it's tough, you know.
And it's tough, you know. >> That's the thing that you're walking a
>> That's the thing that you're walking a path.
path. The world of business looks entirely
The world of business looks entirely different today than it did 15 years
different today than it did 15 years ago. Back then building a brand meant
ago. Back then building a brand meant having huge budgets, warehouses, office
having huge budgets, warehouses, office space and lots of lots of staff. But now
space and lots of lots of staff. But now you can start a business with your
you can start a business with your laptop, an idea and the right tools and
laptop, an idea and the right tools and I would know more so than anybody else
I would know more so than anybody else because that's exactly what I did.
because that's exactly what I did. Shopify is one of our long-standing
Shopify is one of our long-standing sponsors on the show and they're a brand
sponsors on the show and they're a brand I often refer people to when they're
I often refer people to when they're starting their businesses because it's a
starting their businesses because it's a tool that contains many more tools
tool that contains many more tools within itself. And when you're starting
within itself. And when you're starting out everything is everywhere. It's messy
out everything is everywhere. It's messy and it's confusing so having everything
and it's confusing so having everything in the same place is incredibly useful.
in the same place is incredibly useful. Shopify puts store design, payments,
Shopify puts store design, payments, inventory, shipping and even AI tools
inventory, shipping and even AI tools all in one place and you can sell
all in one place and you can sell directly from your website or on social
directly from your website or on social media, essentially wherever your
media, essentially wherever your customers spend their time. It's truly a
customers spend their time. It's truly a brilliant business tool. So if you want
brilliant business tool. So if you want to give it a go, head to
to give it a go, head to shopify.com/bartlett
shopify.com/bartlett and sign up for your $1 per month trial
and sign up for your $1 per month trial period. That's shopify.com/bartlett.
period. That's shopify.com/bartlett. On that point about me and vulnerability
On that point about me and vulnerability is vulnerability important? Cuz there's
is vulnerability important? Cuz there's a lot of performative vulnerability
a lot of performative vulnerability taking place in the
taking place in the Is is it an important thing for my
Is is it an important thing for my health, happiness
health, happiness my future to be a vulnerable person?
my future to be a vulnerable person? Well, let's define it. Um vulnerability
Well, let's define it. Um vulnerability is the emotion we experience when we
is the emotion we experience when we have when we are up against uncertainty
have when we are up against uncertainty risk and emotional exposure.
risk and emotional exposure. So vulnerability is what I feel.
So vulnerability is what I feel. It's the cringe.
It's the cringe. The awkward, the thing that I the
The awkward, the thing that I the emotion I feel in times of uncertainty,
emotion I feel in times of uncertainty, risk or emotional exposure. So it was
risk or emotional exposure. So it was really interesting because I had a hard
really interesting because I had a hard time helping people understand because
time helping people understand because there's we are so raised to believe that
there's we are so raised to believe that vulnerability is weakness
vulnerability is weakness that it took a trip to Fort Bragg
that it took a trip to Fort Bragg working with special forces to ask
working with special forces to ask soldiers a question. Give me a single
soldiers a question. Give me a single example of courage in your life. One
example of courage in your life. One example that you've witnessed or you you
example that you've witnessed or you you yourself have done. One example of
yourself have done. One example of courage that did not require
courage that did not require uncertainty, risk or emotional exposure.
uncertainty, risk or emotional exposure. No one could answer it. Finally a young
No one could answer it. Finally a young soldier stood up and said three tours.
soldier stood up and said three tours. There is no courage without
There is no courage without vulnerability. So is vulnerability
vulnerability. So is vulnerability important? It is if we want to be brave
important? It is if we want to be brave with our lives.
with our lives. If we if we want to be able to manage
If we if we want to be able to manage ourselves in a way
ourselves in a way that's values-aligned
that's values-aligned and courageous, we have to be able to
and courageous, we have to be able to reconcile how we feel when we're
reconcile how we feel when we're uncertain, at risk or exposed. I mean
uncertain, at risk or exposed. I mean and really weirdly
and really weirdly the next week after the trip to Fort
the next week after the trip to Fort Bragg, I was with the Seattle Seahawks,
Bragg, I was with the Seattle Seahawks, the football team, NFL team. Asked the
the football team, NFL team. Asked the players
players give me an example of courage on the
give me an example of courage on the field or off
field or off that did not require vulnerability.
that did not require vulnerability. They said that it's not possible. There
They said that it's not possible. There is no courage. Like if you're doing
is no courage. Like if you're doing things in your life in your work
things in your life in your work and there's no risk, no uncertainty
and there's no risk, no uncertainty and no exposure, then they're not brave.
and no exposure, then they're not brave. If you know how it's going to end
If you know how it's going to end that is not courage.
that is not courage. Courage is the willingness to show up
Courage is the willingness to show up and be all in when you cannot predict
and be all in when you cannot predict the outcome.
the outcome. Courage is saying I love you first.
Courage is saying I love you first. >> [snorts]
>> [snorts] >> That's you you want to know what
>> That's you you want to know what vulnerability is? I love you first. Have
vulnerability is? I love you first. Have you ever said I love you first?
Uh I'm not sure. Yeah. It's been a while.
while. >> But it's hard. It's you know.
>> But it's hard. It's you know. >> So I need to give context. It's been a
>> So I need to give context. It's been a while since I've been in that situation.
while since I've been in that situation. Well, you had to go first. Yeah, we're
Well, you had to go first. Yeah, we're not going to go first here. Yeah. I mean
not going to go first here. Yeah. I mean there's this great story that I tell
there's this great story that I tell about
about I I gave a talk here. It was actually in
I I gave a talk here. It was actually in LA and afterwards a kid came up to me.
LA and afterwards a kid came up to me. He's probably 22 or 23 and he said, "Can
He's probably 22 or 23 and he said, "Can I tell you a story about your work and
I tell you a story about your work and how it's really changed my life?" And I
how it's really changed my life?" And I was like, "Sure." And a kind of crowd
was like, "Sure." And a kind of crowd grew around and this is like the last
grew around and this is like the last time I ever got penned like not being
time I ever got penned like not being able to exit a stage
able to exit a stage because it was such a traumatic It
because it was such a traumatic It wasn't traumatic but it was like he
wasn't traumatic but it was like he said, "Well, I was dating this woman
said, "Well, I was dating this woman and I was so crazy about her. So I took
and I was so crazy about her. So I took her to eat to our favorite restaurant
her to eat to our favorite restaurant and I waited until the dessert came
and I waited until the dessert came because we love this chocolate volcano
because we love this chocolate volcano and I ordered it and I said,
and I ordered it and I said, "I love you."
"I love you." And she looked at me and she said, "I
And she looked at me and she said, "I think you're awesome.
And I think we should date other people."
And so I was like, "God damn, this is the worst story I've ever
the worst story I've ever >> [laughter]
>> [laughter] >> This is not a good story." And he said,
>> This is not a good story." And he said, "So I got in my car and I drove home and
"So I got in my car and I drove home and the whole way home
the whole way home I just kept saying to myself over and
I just kept saying to myself over and over, [ __ ] Brené Brown. [ __ ] Brené
over, [ __ ] Brené Brown. [ __ ] Brené Brown."
Brown." I'm like,
I'm like, "When does this When When's the turn on
"When does this When When's the turn on the story, you know?" And he said, "I
the story, you know?" And he said, "I got home and I walked into my apartment
got home and I walked into my apartment and I pushed the door open
and I pushed the door open and both my roommates were wired in and
and both my roommates were wired in and they were on their computers and they
they were on their computers and they looked up and said, 'Dude, what's going
looked up and said, 'Dude, what's going on?'"
on?'" And he said,
And he said, "I told her I loved her
"I told her I loved her and she told me I was awesome."
and she told me I was awesome." And one of my roommates looked at me and
And one of my roommates looked at me and said, "What the [ __ ] were you thinking?
said, "What the [ __ ] were you thinking? That's not how it works. When you are
That's not how it works. When you are going toward them, they go away. So
going toward them, they go away. So you're always kind of going away so they
you're always kind of going away so they come toward you." And he goes, "Oh. Oh,
come toward you." And he goes, "Oh. Oh, no.
no. No.
No. I don't want to I don't want to be that
I don't want to I don't want to be that dude.
dude. I was daring greatly."
I was daring greatly." And he said both of his roommates just
And he said both of his roommates just got teary-eyed and went, "Right on, man.
got teary-eyed and went, "Right on, man. Right on." Like
Right on." Like there is no courage without
there is no courage without vulnerability.
vulnerability. How can you say you're brave
How can you say you're brave if you're not putting yourself out
if you're not putting yourself out there?
there? So many people have been through things
So many people have been through things which have made it very, very difficult
which have made it very, very difficult for them to be
for them to be vulnerable.
vulnerable. I was speaking to someone yesterday who
I was speaking to someone yesterday who was cheated on
was cheated on bunch of attachment issues in their
bunch of attachment issues in their early childhood. And funnily enough,
early childhood. And funnily enough, when I was talking to her about I was
when I was talking to her about I was asking her questions about cuz I'm very
asking her questions about cuz I'm very deep personal I just carries over into
deep personal I just carries over into my personal life. I was asking her
my personal life. I was asking her questions about the things you know
questions about the things you know she'd been through and whatever else.
she'd been through and whatever else. She just shuts down. And she told me
She just shuts down. And she told me that she she um
that she she um >> [clears throat]
>> [clears throat] >> What were the exact words? She said that
>> What were the exact words? She said that she finds vulnerability
she finds vulnerability to be a form of intimacy that she tries
to be a form of intimacy that she tries to stay away from because
to stay away from because she needs to really really really trust
she needs to really really really trust the person before she opens up. And I
the person before she opens up. And I think this is a trend you see across a
think this is a trend you see across a lot of people they
lot of people they they won't open up enough to form a
they won't open up enough to form a connection
connection because they've been hurt before by
because they've been hurt before by opening up.
opening up. And it feels too scary to do that. And
And it feels too scary to do that. And that results in them being single,
that results in them being single, alone, unhappy,
alone, unhappy, so on and so on.
so on and so on. Yeah, I mean I think there's there what
Yeah, I mean I think there's there what you said was so loaded
you said was so loaded with so many things. So first of all,
with so many things. So first of all, there's there there there's this very
there's there there there's this very interesting relationship between
interesting relationship between vulnerability and trust.
vulnerability and trust. And how does that work? And
And how does that work? And people always ask me what comes first,
people always ask me what comes first, trust or vulnerability? Do I trust you
trust or vulnerability? Do I trust you first then I'm vulnerable or am I
first then I'm vulnerable or am I vulnerable first and then I trust you?
vulnerable first and then I trust you? And I think it's a very slow stacking.
And I think it's a very slow stacking. We get to know each other. I share a
We get to know each other. I share a little bit. I don't I don't share Hey,
little bit. I don't I don't share Hey, nice to meet you Steven. Here's my
nice to meet you Steven. Here's my darkest horrible most painful trauma,
darkest horrible most painful trauma, you know, cuz that that is actually
you know, cuz that that is actually that kind of litmus testing is actually
that kind of litmus testing is actually a form of armor. I'm going to throw
a form of armor. I'm going to throw something at you
something at you that our relationship in no way has been
that our relationship in no way has been built long enough to hold. You're going
built long enough to hold. You're going to go away and I'm going to use that as
to go away and I'm going to use that as verification that vulnerability is
verification that vulnerability is dangerous. Like That's litmus testing.
dangerous. Like That's litmus testing. Mhm. Let me prove to you
Mhm. Let me prove to you that you're not trustworthy. Na na na na
that you're not trustworthy. Na na na na na na na Oh, I see you're backing away.
na na na Oh, I see you're backing away. That's what I thought.
That's what I thought. I'm backing away because we haven't
I'm backing away because we haven't built a relationship that can bear the
built a relationship that can bear the weight of this story.
weight of this story. Can we start Can we start small? Okay.
Can we start Can we start small? Okay. Vulnerability, trust, vulnerability,
Vulnerability, trust, vulnerability, trust, vulnerability, trust.
trust, vulnerability, trust. Mhm.
Mhm. >> [clears throat]
>> [clears throat] >> I think
>> I think I get in that in my work we call that
I get in that in my work we call that like the smash and grab. Like I'm going
like the smash and grab. Like I'm going to I'm going to hit you with something
to I'm going to hit you with something really big and then watch you go away
really big and then watch you go away and use it as evidence.
and use it as evidence. Mhm. Yeah.
Mhm. Yeah. And it takes a really skilled person to
And it takes a really skilled person to say
say yeah, I'm really
yeah, I'm really I'm taking in what you told me. I want
I'm taking in what you told me. I want to be respectful and honor that.
to be respectful and honor that. And
And I don't have a way to file it right now
I don't have a way to file it right now cuz I don't know you well enough.
cuz I don't know you well enough. So I appreciate the share I mean we also
So I appreciate the share I mean we also call it spotlighting. So like if I had a
call it spotlighting. So like if I had a military grade spotlight that they use
military grade spotlight that they use in the wilderness. I work with the
in the wilderness. I work with the military a lot. And I I picked it up and
military a lot. And I I picked it up and put it in your face right here. What
put it in your face right here. What would you do physically? Uh
would you do physically? Uh That's what that's our reaction to too
That's what that's our reaction to too much vulnerability too fast. Yeah. Like
much vulnerability too fast. Yeah. Like yeah, I don't know I don't know you.
yeah, I don't know I don't know you. Yeah. Um
Yeah. Um So you're talking about the slow
So you're talking about the slow stacking of courage and of vulnerability
stacking of courage and of vulnerability and trust. And then you're also talking
and trust. And then you're also talking about that when
about that when >> [clears throat]
>> [clears throat] >> when we've had a lot of hard things
>> when we've had a lot of hard things happen to us,
happen to us, I think this is where I really believe
I think this is where I really believe in the democratization of coaching and
in the democratization of coaching and therapy that a lot of times we have to
therapy that a lot of times we have to work with people. Like we have to get
work with people. Like we have to get help
help to be able to open up and take off some
to be able to open up and take off some of the armor that we put on because
of the armor that we put on because sometimes that armor
sometimes that armor that we put on is freaking survival.
that we put on is freaking survival. I mean and you want to start adding you
I mean and you want to start adding you want to start adding variables like
want to start adding variables like race,
race, gender,
gender, like you know,
like you know, any anything where there's social
any anything where there's social systems also at play. That's survival.
systems also at play. That's survival. Like telling me right now at my career
Like telling me right now at my career like hey, you should be vulnerable with
like hey, you should be vulnerable with your new team. And and talk about your
your new team. And and talk about your previous failures, you know. Well, of
previous failures, you know. Well, of course I could do that and I would do it
course I could do that and I would do it and everybody would clap and they'd
and everybody would clap and they'd think man, she's so brave. And take the
think man, she's so brave. And take the new person who's a young black woman or
new person who's a young black woman or the new first LGBTQ person on a team and
the new first LGBTQ person on a team and say hey, tell tell every Don't tell
say hey, tell tell every Don't tell anybody [ __ ]
anybody [ __ ] Develop trust first.
Develop trust first. Develop uh see how how trust your own
Develop uh see how how trust your own instincts about the accountability of
instincts about the accountability of this group to hold themselves
this group to hold themselves accountable for their behavior. Like
accountable for their behavior. Like vulnerability
vulnerability is not more necessary for any of us than
is not more necessary for any of us than anybody else, but certainly more
anybody else, but certainly more difficult for other for for some people
difficult for other for for some people for sure.
for sure. And I think
And I think what's hard about that, what's so
what's hard about that, what's so painful, probably the most painful part
painful, probably the most painful part of my career
of my career is that
is that regardless of why the armor is on,
regardless of why the armor is on, without vulnerability you cannot access
without vulnerability you cannot access the experiences that are the most
the experiences that are the most meaningful in life.
meaningful in life. Love.
Love. To love someone is to be vulnerable from
To love someone is to be vulnerable from the time you wake up to the time you go
the time you wake up to the time you go to bed. You know that, you're in a
to bed. You know that, you're in a relationship. To love is to be
relationship. To love is to be vulnerable, right?
vulnerable, right? >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> [clears throat]
>> [clears throat] >> And have you ever buried someone you
>> And have you ever buried someone you loved?
loved? Like I lost my mom 2 years ago. Like
Like I lost my mom 2 years ago. Like my kids it's like having your heart live
my kids it's like having your heart live outside of your body. Like to love is to
outside of your body. Like to love is to be vulnerable cuz it's to risk grief and
be vulnerable cuz it's to risk grief and losing.
losing. Belonging is vulnerable. The most The
Belonging is vulnerable. The most The most vulnerable human emotion?
most vulnerable human emotion? Joy.
Joy. Joy is so vulnerable
Joy is so vulnerable that when some of us get close to it, we
that when some of us get close to it, we dress rehearse tragedy
dress rehearse tragedy to prepare for disappointment.
to prepare for disappointment. Like it's so vulnerable that we don't
Like it's so vulnerable that we don't even let ourselves feel joy because
even let ourselves feel joy because we're so afraid someone's going to rip
we're so afraid someone's going to rip it away and we're going to get sucker
it away and we're going to get sucker punched by disappointment.
punched by disappointment. Yes or no? Like people choose to live
Yes or no? Like people choose to live disappointed
disappointed rather than to feel disappoint risk
rather than to feel disappoint risk feeling disappointed and get excited
feeling disappointed and get excited about something.
about something. You know, it's like the first time my
You know, it's like the first time my kids shared with me when they were
kids shared with me when they were young,
young, certainly not the way I was raised, but
certainly not the way I was raised, but you know, I I really really want to make
you know, I I really really want to make this team, Mom.
this team, Mom. And I said
And I said I want to pause you for a second
I want to pause you for a second and tell you how brave it is
and tell you how brave it is to talk openly about something you want
to talk openly about something you want so much when you don't have control over
so much when you don't have control over whether you get it or not.
whether you get it or not. I want I want it for you because you
I want I want it for you because you want it, but regardless of what happens,
want it, but regardless of what happens, I admire your courage for wanting
I admire your courage for wanting something and sharing out loud that you
something and sharing out loud that you want it.
want it. Because if you don't get it, I'll know
Because if you don't get it, I'll know that it was a crushing blow.
that it was a crushing blow. But that's so great because I'll be here
But that's so great because I'll be here for you when that happens either way.
for you when that happens either way. So we And I And I'm really I'm a really
So we And I And I'm really I'm a really I'm I we call it foreboding joy.
I'm I we call it foreboding joy. That joy is so good
That joy is so good we're just waiting for the other shoe to
we're just waiting for the other shoe to drop. And people who have trauma
drop. And people who have trauma histories are really like that. Like for
histories are really like that. Like for me
me cuz of the way I was raised,
cuz of the way I was raised, when something good happens, I'm like oh
when something good happens, I'm like oh god, now what's going to happen?
god, now what's going to happen? Statistically, bad shit's going to roll
Statistically, bad shit's going to roll around any second now.
around any second now. And it's interesting cuz the group of
And it's interesting cuz the group of people that we researched, the only
people that we researched, the only group of people
group of people that could take that You know, there's a
that could take that You know, there's a bodily quiver, right? Of vulnerability.
bodily quiver, right? Of vulnerability. Do you have you felt it?
Do you have you felt it? >> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. The only people that can really lean
The only people that can really lean into joy consistently are people who use
into joy consistently are people who use that vulnerability quiver
that vulnerability quiver as a reminder to be grateful.
as a reminder to be grateful. To be able to practice gratitude in that
To be able to practice gratitude in that second. So gratitude is a huge
second. So gratitude is a huge enabler of joy. Is that automatic or can
enabler of joy. Is that automatic or can one train that?
one train that? >> No, it's a training. Oh [ __ ] no I had
>> No, it's a training. Oh [ __ ] no I had to
to I mean
I mean standing at my front door
standing at my front door watching
watching my 16-year-old daughter walk down the
my 16-year-old daughter walk down the sidewalk with her boyfriend in high
sidewalk with her boyfriend in high school and get in his truck for for
school and get in his truck for for prom, right?
prom, right? And I'm standing there and I'm like
And I'm standing there and I'm like oh god.
oh god. And you know, what am I worried about?
And you know, what am I worried about? You know, prom night.
You know, prom night. Like car wreck, right?
Like car wreck, right? Of course like I when I tell the story
Of course like I when I tell the story the military's always like pregnancy.
the military's always like pregnancy. I'm like no no no no no, car wreck. And
I'm like no no no no no, car wreck. And so I just remember staying there and she
so I just remember staying there and she gets in and and I'm staying next to
gets in and and I'm staying next to Steve and Charlie
Steve and Charlie my my son's, you know, at this time he's
my my son's, you know, at this time he's 10. And I'm like I'm so grateful. I'm so
10. And I'm like I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful. I'm grateful for this moment.
grateful. I'm grateful for this moment. I'm grateful that I'm a part of it. I'm
I'm grateful that I'm a part of it. I'm grateful that they did the corsage and
grateful that they did the corsage and the boutonniere over here. I'm grateful
the boutonniere over here. I'm grateful that I got to help pick out the dress.
that I got to help pick out the dress. I'm so grateful. And Charlie goes
I'm so grateful. And Charlie goes looks at Steve, what's wrong with Mom?
looks at Steve, what's wrong with Mom? Um and Steve goes, she's she's
Um and Steve goes, she's she's practicing gratitude. Let her do it
practicing gratitude. Let her do it otherwise she's going to be on a crazy
otherwise she's going to be on a crazy train. It's going to be all hell and you
train. It's going to be all hell and you know, like cuz part of me wants to say
know, like cuz part of me wants to say oh god.
oh god. Oh god.
Oh god. Like so beautiful and so joyful.
Like so beautiful and so joyful. And get in your truck and follow them
And get in your truck and follow them right now. If he's speeding, I want to
right now. If he's speeding, I want to know about it. If he's not stopping
know about it. If he's not stopping fully to stop sign, follow them until
fully to stop sign, follow them until this date is over. You know, that's
this date is over. You know, that's that's what I want to do.
that's what I want to do. Cuz I'm afraid.
Cuz I'm afraid. Cuz that that joy of that moment was
Cuz that that joy of that moment was just too much for me.
Too vulnerable. It appears you've overcome
overcome various traits of old
various traits of old Rene Brown.
Rene Brown. No, I'm overcoming. Overcoming? No, I'm
No, I'm overcoming. Overcoming? No, I'm not over I I not overcome. Have you
not over I I not overcome. Have you overcome anything?
overcome anything? Yes, a belief that I will overcome
Yes, a belief that I will overcome anything. I've overcome the belief that
anything. I've overcome the belief that I have overcome the belief that
I will ever arrive. I am grateful for the skills that I have
I am grateful for the skills that I have that are new skills that keep me more
that are new skills that keep me more aligned with the person, the mom, the
aligned with the person, the mom, the partner, the leader that I want to be.
partner, the leader that I want to be. But I
But I I
I am
am mindful of all the I try to stay very
mindful of all the I try to stay very mindful that I am scary when I'm scared.
mindful that I am scary when I'm scared. That I catastrophize very very easily
That I catastrophize very very easily and that's painful for everybody around
and that's painful for everybody around me.
me. And I don't need to be liked. I just
And I don't need to be liked. I just need to be myself. Like But those are
need to be myself. Like But those are things
things cuz I will I will sit down like 2 days
cuz I will I will sit down like 2 days ago and like, "Oh my god, it'd be so
ago and like, "Oh my god, it'd be so freaking easy to be liked here."
freaking easy to be liked here." I was like, "This will be This would be
I was like, "This will be This would be a piece of cake." And I'm like, "Shit, I
a piece of cake." And I'm like, "Shit, I don't do that anymore. Bummer."
don't do that anymore. Bummer." 2 days ago? Yeah. Out of what?
2 days ago? Yeah. Out of what? Just with a group of people that I knew
Just with a group of people that I knew what it would take to be liked.
what it would take to be liked. And you made the choice to
And you made the choice to >> Just to be myself.
>> Just to be myself. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Why?
Why? Because now the person I'm going to
Because now the person I'm going to betray
betray last is me.
Yeah, I hope I see you again, but not that important.
not that important. Some people might find that somewhat
Some people might find that somewhat demoralizing to know that they they too
demoralizing to know that they they too might never cure
might never cure parts of themselves that they're
parts of themselves that they're desperate to change. I think people, you
desperate to change. I think people, you know, they often come to podcasts like
know, they often come to podcasts like this or read books like yours looking
this or read books like yours looking for solutions fixes
for solutions fixes to not liking myself, to the way that I
to not liking myself, to the way that I react to my emotions. They want to fix
react to my emotions. They want to fix it.
it. Cuz if they can fix it, then they can be
Cuz if they can fix it, then they can be happy. I don't think that's in the
happy. I don't think that's in the consideration set.
consideration set. For a very
For a very beautiful reason.
beautiful reason. >> [clears throat]
>> [clears throat] >> That if we could fix it
>> That if we could fix it and never have to wrestle with it again
and never have to wrestle with it again we would be so short on grace
we would be so short on grace for other people.
for other people. That we would be
That we would be tyrants.
So, you think it it creates a form of empathy for others? Yeah. I mean, like
empathy for others? Yeah. I mean, like I'm not going to I have like really
I'm not going to I have like really serious boundaries. I'm a very boundary
serious boundaries. I'm a very boundary person. But when I see someone behaving
person. But when I see someone behaving a certain way, I was like, "Uh, my
a certain way, I was like, "Uh, my [ __ ] sees
[ __ ] sees your inner [ __ ] right here. I get I
your inner [ __ ] right here. I get I get it I get what you're doing. I'm not
get it I get what you're doing. I'm not going to tolerate it. I'm going to set a
going to tolerate it. I'm going to set a boundary around it.
boundary around it. But I'm not really judging you for it.
But I'm not really judging you for it. It's just that behavior's not okay right
It's just that behavior's not okay right here." But you like yourself now?
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I do.
I do. I I
I do. I can I can
I can I can I can I think I can say that pretty
I can I think I can say that pretty I like what I'm becoming.
I like what I'm becoming. And for anyone that doesn't like
And for anyone that doesn't like themselves, what what work has had to go
themselves, what what work has had to go into getting to the point where you like
into getting to the point where you like what you you're becoming?
maybe one of the biggest findings of my research over the last 25 years is it's
research over the last 25 years is it's not
not fear that gets in the way of us being
fear that gets in the way of us being brave with our lives and our work.
brave with our lives and our work. It's armor.
It's armor. Everybody's afraid.
Everybody's afraid. It's okay to be afraid.
It's okay to be afraid. What's dangerous is the armor that we
What's dangerous is the armor that we reach for to self-protect when we're
reach for to self-protect when we're afraid.
afraid. And how that armor moves us
And how that armor moves us away from
away from love, connection
love, connection and our values. And so,
and our values. And so, I think the hardest work is
I think the hardest work is for me
for me constantly being aware of what is my
constantly being aware of what is my armor. What am I What am I grabbing for
armor. What am I What am I grabbing for when I'm afraid? What am I grabbing for
when I'm afraid? What am I grabbing for when I want to protect my sense of
when I want to protect my sense of self-worth, my ego? Like and and how
self-worth, my ego? Like and and how heavy that [ __ ] is.
heavy that [ __ ] is. You know, at some point I had to wear
You know, at some point I had to wear it.
it. Because that was survival for me growing
Because that was survival for me growing up.
up. But this is the big This is the big
developmental milestone of middle age, which you are squarely in
of middle age, which you are squarely in train.
train. Which is kind of when the universe grabs
Which is kind of when the universe grabs you by the shoulders and pulls you
you by the shoulders and pulls you really close
really close and says
and says "I'm not [ __ ] around anymore.
"I'm not [ __ ] around anymore. I gave you gifts.
I gave you gifts. Choosing not to grow into them is not
Choosing not to grow into them is not benign.
There's a consequence for that. And your armor is getting in the way.
armor is getting in the way. You're grown-ass person now.
You're grown-ass person now. You have different choices.
You have different choices. Let go of what doesn't serve."
And that is the big milestone, I think, that we have to wrestle with in midlife.
that we have to wrestle with in midlife. What no longer serves that's preventing
What no longer serves that's preventing us from growing into who we want to be.
us from growing into who we want to be. And is that where vulnerability comes
And is that where vulnerability comes into the picture? Oh, for sure. Cuz all
into the picture? Oh, for sure. Cuz all the armor
the armor all the armor
all the armor is about vulnerability.
is about vulnerability. It requires a huge amount of um I was
It requires a huge amount of um I was going to say self-awareness.
going to say self-awareness. Yes.
Yes. >> That some people just don't could
>> That some people just don't could probably never accomplish. I mean
I mean most of us can understand
most of us can understand if you back me into an emotional corner
if you back me into an emotional corner what are you going to get?
what are you going to get? Like as a leader, I know my armor,
Like as a leader, I know my armor, perfectionism, micromanagement. I get
perfectionism, micromanagement. I get super intensive. I get recklessly
super intensive. I get recklessly decisive.
decisive. I know my armor.
I know my armor. And my team knows my armor.
I think my armor in my personal life, especially
my armor in my personal life, especially when it comes to my kids, when I get
when it comes to my kids, when I get when I feel vulnerable
when I feel vulnerable is control, control, control.
is control, control, control. Take over all the chess pieces.
Take over all the chess pieces. But that's
But that's not a good idea.
not a good idea. It's not possible. Hm. It's just It's
It's not possible. Hm. It's just It's just pretend. That's called anxiety.
just pretend. That's called anxiety. Like pretending that you can control the
Like pretending that you can control the chessboard of other people's lives, let
chessboard of other people's lives, let alone your own, much less other people's
alone your own, much less other people's lives. But I think I do it out of
Is fear the opposite of courage? Or is it?
courage? Or is it? No, I think the opposite of courage is
No, I think the opposite of courage is armor.
armor. Armor, okay. I think the opposite of
Armor, okay. I think the opposite of courage is self-protection.
courage is self-protection. To be courageous in this context,
To be courageous in this context, whether it's as a leader or in another
whether it's as a leader or in another environment, you talk about these four
environment, you talk about these four steps to courage. You talk about it in
steps to courage. You talk about it in Strong Ground.
Strong Ground. Yeah.
Yeah. This was research that emerged like 15
This was research that emerged like 15 years ago, and I was really really
years ago, and I was really really nervous cuz I'm a grounded theory
nervous cuz I'm a grounded theory researcher. I'm a qualitative
researcher. I'm a qualitative researcher. So, a grounded theory is
researcher. So, a grounded theory is only as good as its ability to work new
only as good as its ability to work new data. So, you develop a hypothesis or a
data. So, you develop a hypothesis or a theory based on data. And then as you
theory based on data. And then as you collect more data, does the hypothesis
collect more data, does the hypothesis hold? And, you know, this we collected
hold? And, you know, this we collected that data pre-pandemic.
that data pre-pandemic. You know,
You know, pre pre a lot of things. And so, I was
pre pre a lot of things. And so, I was really worried about the four skill sets
really worried about the four skill sets of courage, which are
of courage, which are identifying and understanding your core
identifying and understanding your core values.
values. I would love to do this exercise with
I would love to do this exercise with you sometime.
you sometime. Um two,
Um two, understanding what gets in the way of
understanding what gets in the way of you wrestling with vulnerability, kind
you wrestling with vulnerability, kind of owning it and moving through it
of owning it and moving through it constructively.
constructively. Three, how to build trust and how to
Three, how to build trust and how to become super important trustworthy to
become super important trustworthy to yourself. Self-trust.
yourself. Self-trust. Because one of the first casualties of
Because one of the first casualties of failure or disappointment or setback is
failure or disappointment or setback is we lose
we lose our our ability to trust ourselves.
our our ability to trust ourselves. Our ability to make good decisions. Our
Our ability to make good decisions. Our ability to take care of ourselves. And
ability to take care of ourselves. And the last one, which is my favorite
the last one, which is my favorite because [snorts]
because [snorts] it can really I've seen it really change
it can really I've seen it really change an organization is
an organization is how to get back up after failure and
how to get back up after failure and disappointment. How to reset. How to be
disappointment. How to reset. How to be how to manage your own bounce when hard
how to manage your own bounce when hard [ __ ] happens.
[ __ ] happens. So, those are the four skill sets of
So, those are the four skill sets of courage. Again,
courage. Again, evidence-based
evidence-based observable, measurable, and teachable.
observable, measurable, and teachable. We've taken 165,000
We've taken 165,000 people through this work across 45
people through this work across 45 countries.
countries. Collected data on all of it. It's so
Collected data on all of it. It's so exciting. And it withstood all of the
exciting. And it withstood all of the complex changes over the last 5 years,
complex changes over the last 5 years, including AI.
including AI. Organizational because this is where we
Organizational because this is where we do our work. I don't I'm not a therapist
do our work. I don't I'm not a therapist or clinician. I don't work with like
or clinician. I don't work with like families or individuals. I mean, I have
families or individuals. I mean, I have a therapist, but I'm not one.
a therapist, but I'm not one. Um so, I think
you can develop skirt courage skills. The the third point is braving trust.
The the third point is braving trust. Yeah. And I've heard about your marble
Yeah. And I've heard about your marble jar theory. So, I've got a jar of
jar theory. So, I've got a jar of marbles.
marbles. >> that. Um could you explain to me what
>> that. Um could you explain to me what your marble jar You look at how excited
your marble jar You look at how excited you are. I know.
you are. I know. Um so, this comes You know, where where
Um so, this comes You know, where where is where where do I get my information?
is where where do I get my information? Ellen's in fourth grade, my oldest. She
Ellen's in fourth grade, my oldest. She comes home from school. Mhm. The front
comes home from school. Mhm. The front [clears throat] door closes. She slides
[clears throat] door closes. She slides down the door into a heap sobbing.
down the door into a heap sobbing. I'm like, "God, Ellen, are you okay? Are
I'm like, "God, Ellen, are you okay? Are you hurt? What's going on?" She says
you hurt? What's going on?" She says that
that something hard happened.
something hard happened. She shared it like very confidentially
She shared it like very confidentially with one or two of her friends during
with one or two of her friends during recess.
recess. When she got back to the classroom
When she got back to the classroom they had told everybody in her class,
they had told everybody in her class, all 30 kids.
all 30 kids. Everybody was laughing and pointing and
Everybody was laughing and pointing and making fun of her.
making fun of her. And she said, "I will never trust anyone
And she said, "I will never trust anyone again."
again." And my response immediately to my in my
And my response immediately to my in my mind was, "Damn straight. Not [ __ ]
mind was, "Damn straight. Not [ __ ] person. You trust your mama, and that's
person. You trust your mama, and that's it." Like that was my response. But
it." Like that was my response. But again,
again, that's not the right thing to do, right?
that's not the right thing to do, right? You want a kid who can develop trust
You want a kid who can develop trust with others. So, I said, "Trust is
with others. So, I said, "Trust is really hard." She said, "I don't
really hard." She said, "I don't understand it."
understand it." And her teacher at the time, Mrs.
And her teacher at the time, Mrs. Bockum, had a mar- a marble jar.
Bockum, had a mar- a marble jar. And when the team when the when the
And when the team when the when the class would collectively make good
class would collectively make good decisions, she would put marbles in this
decisions, she would put marbles in this empty jar. And when it got full, they'd
empty jar. And when it got full, they'd have an extra recess and party. Mhm.
have an extra recess and party. Mhm. And [clears throat] so, immediately what
And [clears throat] so, immediately what came to me, cuz I'm describing trust,
came to me, cuz I'm describing trust, which is a hard concept to a fourth
which is a hard concept to a fourth grader. I said, "Trust is the marble
grader. I said, "Trust is the marble jar."
jar." She's like, "What do you mean?" And I
She's like, "What do you mean?" And I said,
said, "Every time you share somebody something
"Every time you share somebody something with someone that's confidential and
with someone that's confidential and they don't share it, they get a marble.
they don't share it, they get a marble. Every time you build trust,
Every time you build trust, when you want to share something really
when you want to share something really private and personal, you look for a
private and personal, you look for a friend whose jar is full of marbles."
friend whose jar is full of marbles." "Do you have any marble jar friends?"
"Do you have any marble jar friends?" She's like, "Not the ones I shared with
She's like, "Not the ones I shared with today." And I said, "Who are your marble
today." And I said, "Who are your marble jar friends?" And she said, "Hannah and
jar friends?" And she said, "Hannah and Lorna." And I said, "Tell me something
Lorna." And I said, "Tell me something they do to earn marbles." "Oh, well,
they do to earn marbles." "Oh, well, like if I get to my tray late at lunch
like if I get to my tray late at lunch and there's no place to sit, Lorna will
and there's no place to sit, Lorna will scoot over and give me half her seat and
scoot over and give me half her seat and then we just share one seat and I can
then we just share one seat and I can sit at the table. And then the other day
sit at the table. And then the other day when I had strep throat, Hannah was
when I had strep throat, Hannah was worried about me. So remember her mom
worried about me. So remember her mom called and said, 'Hannah's worried about
called and said, 'Hannah's worried about Ellen, why wasn't she at school?' But
Ellen, why wasn't she at school?' But then the biggest thing that Hannah did
then the biggest thing that Hannah did was the other day,
was the other day, Oma and Opa, my parents, my mom and her
Oma and Opa, my parents, my mom and her her husband, came to my soccer game and
her husband, came to my soccer game and Hannah looked over and goes, 'Oh my god,
Hannah looked over and goes, 'Oh my god, your Oma and Opa are here.' And I said,
your Oma and Opa are here.' And I said, 'Why was that a big deal?' And she goes,
'Why was that a big deal?' And she goes, 'Because everybody's divorced and
'Because everybody's divorced and remarried and I've got eight
remarried and I've got eight Yeah, four sets of people and she
Yeah, four sets of people and she remembered their names.'
remembered their names.' And what was shocking to me is that
And what was shocking to me is that Ellen was conveying
Ellen was conveying that these marbles
that these marbles were being earned on these very small
were being earned on these very small She knew my grandparents' name. She gave
She knew my grandparents' name. She gave me a seat to sit at. She checked on me
me a seat to sit at. She checked on me when I was missing school.
when I was missing school. And so
And so it made me start thinking about the
it made me start thinking about the literature on trust. So I immediately go
literature on trust. So I immediately go to the Gottmans. Have you had the
to the Gottmans. Have you had the Gottmans on here?
Gottmans on here? >> Oh, twice, yeah. Yeah, I mean just like
>> Oh, twice, yeah. Yeah, I mean just like yeah. So I go to the Gottmans' research
yeah. So I go to the Gottmans' research on trust and I read right off the bat
on trust and I read right off the bat where Gottmans say, "Trust is earned in
where Gottmans say, "Trust is earned in small moments every day." He tells a
small moments every day." He tells a story. It's my favorite story that he
story. It's my favorite story that he tells and I've had them on my podcast
tells and I've had them on my podcast and I've
and I've done blurbs for their books and written
done blurbs for their books and written forwards. They're just great. So he
forwards. They're just great. So he tells a story about how he's also a
tells a story about how he's also a mystery lover like me. He's on the
mystery lover like me. He's on the second to last page of his mystery.
second to last page of his mystery. He's like, "Oh my god, oh my god. Who
He's like, "Oh my god, oh my god. Who did it?" And he jumps up to go brush his
did it?" And he jumps up to go brush his teeth and he gets gets walks to the
teeth and he gets gets walks to the bathroom and he sees his wife crying and
bathroom and he sees his wife crying and brushing her hair. He's like, "Shit.
brushing her hair. He's like, "Shit. Don't look. Everything's good. Just go
Don't look. Everything's good. Just go to the bathroom and get back in your get
to the bathroom and get back in your get get back to your book." And he's like,
get back to your book." And he's like, "That's a sliding door moment.
"That's a sliding door moment. I can I have a choice in that moment
I can I have a choice in that moment to build trust and stop and say, 'What's
to build trust and stop and say, 'What's going on?'
going on?' or to build betrayal and pretend like I
or to build betrayal and pretend like I don't see her hurting."
don't see her hurting." "So I stop. I take the brush out of her
"So I stop. I take the brush out of her hand.
hand. I start brushing her hair and say,
I start brushing her hair and say, 'What's going on?'"
'What's going on?'" That's a sliding door moment that we
That's a sliding door moment that we have all the time, right? And so to me,
have all the time, right? And so to me, trust is built slowly over time, a
trust is built slowly over time, a marble at a time.
marble at a time. And that's how That's how we teach trust
And that's how That's how we teach trust to the most senior leaders in Fortune
to the most senior leaders in Fortune 100 companies.
100 companies. The trust is the marble jar. It's
The trust is the marble jar. It's earned.
earned. Leaders believe
Leaders believe and you're a leader, so you know you
and you're a leader, so you know you know the temptation.
know the temptation. Leaders believe that in the middle of a
Leaders believe that in the middle of a crisis,
crisis, you know,
you know, you put the numbers together and there's
you put the numbers together and there's a fever dream in the United States and
a fever dream in the United States and there's new tariffs and you wake up and
there's new tariffs and you wake up and you know, you're you're you've got a
you know, you're you're you've got a revenue line that's in crisis and then
revenue line that's in crisis and then you can just look at your people and
you can just look at your people and say,
say, "Hello everyone." This is like back to
"Hello everyone." This is like back to the the uh executive presence. "Trust
the the uh executive presence. "Trust me. Here's what we're going to do." And
me. Here's what we're going to do." And it means nothing to people. What matters
it means nothing to people. What matters is a leader that walks past you in the
is a leader that walks past you in the morning and says, "Hey, good to see
morning and says, "Hey, good to see Steven. How's your mom's chemo going?"
Marbles. Marbles. Then when the crisis happens,
Marbles. Then when the crisis happens, you don't need to say, "Trust me."
you don't need to say, "Trust me." You just need to say what's on your
You just need to say what's on your mind. They trust you.
mind. They trust you. The other thing I think uh
The other thing I think uh is often plagued my mind is as a leader,
is often plagued my mind is as a leader, sometimes you say things and those
sometimes you say things and those things can't happen for whatever reason,
things can't happen for whatever reason, things change.
things change. >> Right. And um
And I think leaders sometimes think that trust is always being correct, always
trust is always being correct, always predicting everything correctly, always
predicting everything correctly, always being right.
being right. No.
No. Trust is
Trust is Man, I think we had nailed this.
Man, I think we had nailed this. I thought
I thought this was how this was going to happen.
this was how this was going to happen. We were wrong. You've been
We were wrong. You've been [clears throat] working your asses off
[clears throat] working your asses off for 6 months on this
for 6 months on this and I've got to deprioritize it today
and I've got to deprioritize it today standing right here in front of you.
standing right here in front of you. But I'm not going to [ __ ] you.
But I'm not going to [ __ ] you. You've been working your ass off on a
You've been working your ass off on a priority
priority that literally does not exist today.
that literally does not exist today. Hm.
Hm. I want to stop and say thank you.
I want to stop and say thank you. I saw what you were doing.
I saw what you were doing. I want to be completely transparent
I want to be completely transparent about why the priority has shifted.
about why the priority has shifted. And then I'm going to ask you for the
And then I'm going to ask you for the same level of work on the new priority.
Yes or no? Yeah, and then the blame and
Yeah, and then the blame and responsibility often rear their heads.
responsibility often rear their heads. That's right.
That's right. >> For for better or for worse.
>> For for better or for worse. >> Go like this. My eyelash or something. I
>> Go like this. My eyelash or something. I know. One marble. There you go. Oh.
know. One marble. There you go. Oh. Yeah, [laughter] is that a marble? Yeah,
Yeah, [laughter] is that a marble? Yeah, that is. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you didn't have
that is. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you didn't have to say that, you know.
to say that, you know. I think that sometimes people say you've
I think that sometimes people say you've got some [ __ ] on your shirt. I'm like,
got some [ __ ] on your shirt. I'm like, that's thank you so much because it
that's thank you so much because it would have been much
would have been much easier for you not to point out the
easier for you not to point out the boogie on my face or whatever, you know
boogie on my face or whatever, you know what I mean? I don't trust somebody that
what I mean? I don't trust somebody that doesn't do that. So I guess it is
doesn't do that. So I guess it is [clears throat] a marble.
[clears throat] a marble. Hm.
Hm. Someone said to me a couple of weeks ago
Someone said to me a couple of weeks ago on the podcast, they said, "I trust
on the podcast, they said, "I trust people who say things in public that is
people who say things in public that is against their near-term interests." And
against their near-term interests." And I thought, "Hm." Oh.
I thought, "Hm." Oh. Oh, I That's [laughter] good.
Oh, I That's [laughter] good. That's That's like a That's like a
That's That's like a That's like a That's a
Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's a good metaphor though, right? Mhm. Mhm. The trust in
though, right? Mhm. Mhm. The trust in the [clears throat] marble jar has been
the [clears throat] marble jar has been very helpful for us. Mhm. And let me
very helpful for us. Mhm. And let me tell you, there are behaviors
tell you, there are behaviors This is plastic.
This is plastic. There are behaviors in relationships
There are behaviors in relationships where you take this whole thing and just
where you take this whole thing and just slam it on the ground. Cheating.
slam it on the ground. Cheating. I think that's an obvious one.
There's one that's more has a more ragged edge of grief and distress than
ragged edge of grief and distress than even cheating,
even cheating, which is just slowly disengaging.
Emotionally disengaging. >> Yeah. Mhm.
Yeah, gosh. That's a ragged That's a ragged-edged break on that marble jar
ragged-edged break on that marble jar and it just happens over time and every
and it just happens over time and every Yeah, the the other people think that
Yeah, the the other people think that they're nuts and it makes them question
they're nuts and it makes them question their own judgment.
their own judgment. Working in the sales team at a startup
Working in the sales team at a startup can be a strange experience because one
can be a strange experience because one month you're chasing leads like the
month you're chasing leads like the future of the business depends on it,
future of the business depends on it, which often it does, and then the next
which often it does, and then the next month you're buried in them. Pressure
month you're buried in them. Pressure builds up and eventually it starts
builds up and eventually it starts clouding your judgment. Then you end up
clouding your judgment. Then you end up making a reactive decision instead of an
making a reactive decision instead of an informed one. Our sponsor, Pipedrive, is
informed one. Our sponsor, Pipedrive, is the number one CRM tool for small to
the number one CRM tool for small to medium businesses, made by sales people
medium businesses, made by sales people for sales people. It helps you get
for sales people. It helps you get brutally clear on exactly where your
brutally clear on exactly where your focus should be. It shows you what
focus should be. It shows you what opportunities have stalled and what is
opportunities have stalled and what is worth your time and focus. And my team
worth your time and focus. And my team have been using the new Pipedrive
have been using the new Pipedrive Prospector tool, which uses AI to search
Prospector tool, which uses AI to search through over 400 million profiles to
through over 400 million profiles to find verified decision-makers and shares
find verified decision-makers and shares their contact information with you. So
their contact information with you. So if you're interested in learning more,
if you're interested in learning more, head to pipedrive.com/ceo,
where you can get a 30-day free trial and that's just for my audience,
and that's just for my audience, pipedrive.com/ceo.
pipedrive.com/ceo. So it's time to join the 100,000
So it's time to join the 100,000 companies that are already using
companies that are already using Pipedrive by going to pipedrive.com/ceo
Pipedrive by going to pipedrive.com/ceo now.
now. I did something at 24 years old that has
I did something at 24 years old that has had a profound impact on my life. I set
had a profound impact on my life. I set myself the challenge of posting every
myself the challenge of posting every single day on my social media channels.
single day on my social media channels. And at the time, I was doing it to grow
And at the time, I was doing it to grow my following, but it had this profound
my following, but it had this profound impact on my life and two remarkable
impact on my life and two remarkable things happened when I did that. I
things happened when I did that. I managed to learn faster because every
managed to learn faster because every single day I'm capturing what is
single day I'm capturing what is happening to me and trying to distill it
happening to me and trying to distill it down into something that I can share
down into something that I can share with the world. But more remarkably, it
with the world. But more remarkably, it led me to building a following of many
led me to building a following of many millions of people and that's the basis
millions of people and that's the basis that I used to launch the Diary of a
that I used to launch the Diary of a CEO. And that's why I want to tell you
CEO. And that's why I want to tell you about our sponsor today, Adobe Express.
about our sponsor today, Adobe Express. They are the platform that I use to make
They are the platform that I use to make all the posts across my LinkedIn and
all the posts across my LinkedIn and across my Instagram. It's a couple of
across my Instagram. It's a couple of clicks and you don't need to be an
clicks and you don't need to be an expert and that is why I love using it
expert and that is why I love using it because I'm not an expert in graphic
because I'm not an expert in graphic design. It's accessible to use for all
design. It's accessible to use for all of us, even if we don't have the
of us, even if we don't have the technical prowess to design great
technical prowess to design great things. So if you want to start
things. So if you want to start compounding both your reach and your
compounding both your reach and your knowledge like I did at 24 years old,
knowledge like I did at 24 years old, then head to adobe.ly/steven
and get started with Adobe Express. That's adobe.ly
That's adobe.ly / Steven.
/ Steven. You have been in a relationship much
You have been in a relationship much longer than me, but we share a lot of
longer than me, but we share a lot of similarities in many ways. I was
similarities in many ways. I was wondering if um
wondering if um if you were to give me
if you were to give me any relationship advice that might hold
any relationship advice that might hold my [ __ ] together Mhm. over the next 30
my [ __ ] together Mhm. over the next 30 years.
years. I mean, you could give me so much, I
I mean, you could give me so much, I know, cuz I've seen I've seen so much of
know, cuz I've seen I've seen so much of your incredible I've actually stolen so
your incredible I've actually stolen so much advice. One of the things I stole
much advice. One of the things I stole recently, which me and my girlfriend
recently, which me and my girlfriend talked about, was
talked about, was sometimes I'd come home and I'm on like
sometimes I'd come home and I'm on like 10% and I heard you say this.
10% and I heard you say this. >> Oh, yeah. And I just I don't communicate
>> Oh, yeah. And I just I don't communicate to my girlfriend that I'm on I've got
to my girlfriend that I'm on I've got like 10% left.
like 10% left. >> Yeah. And then she you know, she might
>> Yeah. And then she you know, she might want to try and work through some [ __ ]
want to try and work through some [ __ ] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's going to go bad. Yeah, it's going
It's going to go bad. Yeah, it's going to go bad. Yeah, let's not do this at
to go bad. Yeah, let's not do this at 1:00 a.m. No.
1:00 a.m. No. >> [clears throat]
>> [clears throat] >> And I saw you talk about how you
>> And I saw you talk about how you communicate, you vocalize what you have
communicate, you vocalize what you have left in the tank to give context to the
left in the tank to give context to the person. I guess it's to create some
person. I guess it's to create some empathy for both of you, but I've stolen
empathy for both of you, but I've stolen that. But is there anything else that um
that. But is there anything else that um you think might help me over the next 30
you think might help me over the next 30 years to have a good relationship with
years to have a good relationship with my girlfriend with all the risks that
my girlfriend with all the risks that you see? I'll just start by saying I
you see? I'll just start by saying I think therapy,
think therapy, couples work, is like so incredibly
couples work, is like so incredibly powerful and helpful. I think the
powerful and helpful. I think the Gottmans' work
Gottmans' work is really like we read the Gottmans'
is really like we read the Gottmans' work together sometimes. I think I think
work together sometimes. I think I think that's helpful. I'm surprised you were
that's helpful. I'm surprised you were willing
willing as someone that struggles with
as someone that struggles with vulnerability. Oh, yeah. No, for sure.
vulnerability. Oh, yeah. No, for sure. Well, you you weren't No, I was willing.
Well, you you weren't No, I was willing. Oh, really? Okay.
Oh, really? Okay. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I struggle with
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I struggle with vulnerability, but I really respect
vulnerability, but I really respect humility in people so much that even if
humility in people so much that even if I'm not feeling humility, I will fake
I'm not feeling humility, I will fake humility and be like, I need help. And
humility and be like, I need help. And then I'll say, [ __ ] this is real. This
then I'll say, [ __ ] this is real. This is hard. This is They say, got my
is hard. This is They say, got my number? Like, how
number? Like, how >> [laughter]
>> [laughter] >> I damn. Hey, they just call the thing a
>> I damn. Hey, they just call the thing a thing. They hurt my feelers. Um but I I
thing. They hurt my feelers. Um but I I guess the biggest thing is that not
guess the biggest thing is that not neither Stephen I nor I had
neither Stephen I nor I had any modeling of what a healthy
any modeling of what a healthy relationship looked like
relationship looked like at all.
And I think one commitment we made is to
I think one commitment we made is to just
just keep showing up. I think these are the
keep showing up. I think these are the three commitments. Keep showing up.
three commitments. Keep showing up. Don't buy into the [ __ ] that it's
Don't buy into the [ __ ] that it's supposed to be easy. It'll be the
supposed to be easy. It'll be the hardest thing you'll ever do. And ask
hardest thing you'll ever do. And ask for help.
for help. And that's not There's no
And that's not There's no I wish I could give you like a Here's
I wish I could give you like a Here's the secret to it. But the secret to us
the secret to it. But the secret to us is we keep showing up.
is we keep showing up. We know it's not supposed to be easy.
We know it's not supposed to be easy. And we get help.
And we get help. And the help being
And the help being you turn to him and ask for help or
you turn to him and ask for help or external
external >> Well, we Well, we get external help, but
>> Well, we Well, we get external help, but we read. We try new things.
we read. We try new things. Um
Um we try new tools.
we try new tools. We just
We just we don't ever want to be done learning
we don't ever want to be done learning and trying to be better for ourselves
and trying to be better for ourselves and for each other.
And that's a lot. I mean, 38 years together
together is
not just like the slow roll movie of a life and a family,
of a life and a family, but we've
but we've buried parents.
buried parents. You know, we've gone through illnesses.
You know, we've gone through illnesses. We've
We've raised, you know, kids. We've
raised, you know, kids. We've We've gone through different seasons in
We've gone through different seasons in our own lives where we were not synced
our own lives where we were not synced at all.
at all. It's really, really hard.
It's really, really hard. But it's I'm more proud of it than
But it's I'm more proud of it than anything I've ever done.
anything I've ever done. Cuz my setup for success was zero.
Cuz my setup for success was zero. You've buried parents.
You've buried parents. Yeah. Christmas day?
Yeah. Christmas day? My mom died on Christmas day after my
My mom died on Christmas day after my sisters and I were there at her primary
sisters and I were there at her primary caregiver for 4 years with dementia. 4
caregiver for 4 years with dementia. 4 years.
I wouldn't wish that [ __ ] on the people I hate the most.
I hate the most. I know I try not to hate people, but I
I know I try not to hate people, but I God gives me grace for it on occasion.
God gives me grace for it on occasion. But um
But um I would not wish that on anybody.
You know, there's the reality of it, you know, she gets there, there's an
know, she gets there, there's an accident. You're showering your mom.
accident. You're showering your mom. You're bathing your mom. Mhm. You know,
You're bathing your mom. Mhm. You know, and
and she knows just enough
she knows just enough to be humiliated by it.
to be humiliated by it. Mhm.
Mhm. But this is life. Like this is This is
But this is life. Like this is This is caregiving.
caregiving. You know?
You know? And it's a
And it's a tremendous emotional, physical, mental
tremendous emotional, physical, mental weight that falls primarily on women who
weight that falls primarily on women who are also in the workforce.
are also in the workforce. You know, thank God I had two sisters,
You know, thank God I had two sisters, so there's three of us.
so there's three of us. Um but
Um but and many people have very Many people
and many people have very Many people have zero. It's like you and your PhD
have zero. It's like you and your PhD research PhD researcher. I have
research PhD researcher. I have resources.
resources. A lot of resources.
A lot of resources. And I think it almost killed me. You
And I think it almost killed me. You know, and so
know, and so It almost killed you. I mean, yeah, it
It almost killed you. I mean, yeah, it it
to lose someone that you love like I love my mom in bits and pieces
love my mom in bits and pieces in chips and bones in, you know, like
in chips and bones in, you know, like that is
that is you know, and then
you know, and then there was a day when she just got
there was a day when she just got incredibly, incredibly cruel. Like my
incredibly, incredibly cruel. Like my mom was the fulcrum.
mom was the fulcrum. Our family changed on her back. Like she
Our family changed on her back. Like she was the first person to go to therapy.
was the first person to go to therapy. She left my dad.
She left my dad. She got us into therapy. She worked
She got us into therapy. She worked three jobs. She She changed everything.
three jobs. She She changed everything. She talked about the long history of
She talked about the long history of addiction in our family, you know, on
addiction in our family, you know, on both sides, everywhere. She changed our
both sides, everywhere. She changed our family. And so to say she was like, you
family. And so to say she was like, you know, somebody who I respected and
know, somebody who I respected and revered like was is an understatement.
revered like was is an understatement. And you know,
And you know, and we did so much healing work
and we did so much healing work around
around kind of how she showed up as a parent in
kind of how she showed up as a parent in her marriage with my dad. And so then
her marriage with my dad. And so then the one day I went to go take care of
the one day I went to go take care of her and I saw that thing that hadn't
her and I saw that thing that hadn't seen since I was 14, you know, and I'm
seen since I was 14, you know, and I'm 54.
54. You know, and it literally like I
You know, and it literally like I couldn't drive. Like it brought me
couldn't drive. Like it brought me physically to my knees.
physically to my knees. Like Like my husband had to come and get
Like Like my husband had to come and get me.
me. And I don't like
And I don't like I can't I can't talk about it without
I can't I can't talk about it without getting emotional cuz it's not like I
getting emotional cuz it's not like I blamed my mom cuz she's in the middle of
blamed my mom cuz she's in the middle of this disease, you know? But it was like
this disease, you know? But it was like I
I I didn't see her for 2 months after
I didn't see her for 2 months after that.
that. And Steve kept saying, I I said, I
And Steve kept saying, I I said, I can't. And he's like, you got to you got
can't. And he's like, you got to you got to heal from that. I mean, just imagine
to heal from that. I mean, just imagine being dropped back in
being dropped back in a worst-case scenario situation when you
a worst-case scenario situation when you were 13 or 14.
were 13 or 14. And then, you know, you're just like,
And then, you know, you're just like, I can't I can't.
I can't I can't. And, you know, my sisters were like,
And, you know, my sisters were like, I got We got We got this.
I got We got We got this. And then they'd go through a period
And then they'd go through a period where they were like, I can't right now.
where they were like, I can't right now. And then I Okay, I got it. But Steve
And then I Okay, I got it. But Steve always had it.
Steve was like, I got the diaper. I'll take him to dinner.
I'll take him to dinner. I'll meet with the doctors. Like, that's
I'll meet with the doctors. Like, that's partnership.
partnership. You know what I mean? That's
You know what I mean? That's partnership.
partnership. How did you How did you deal with the
How did you How did you deal with the grief?
grief? Well,
Well, don't send me your hate mail, [ __ ]
don't send me your hate mail, [ __ ] but you know, when she died, it was
but you know, when she died, it was nothing but relief.
nothing but relief. I've heard this I've never not heard
I've heard this I've never not heard that from someone that had a parent with
that from someone that had a parent with struggling with dementia. Absolutely.
struggling with dementia. Absolutely. >> It was complete relief. I mean, the day
>> It was complete relief. I mean, the day before she died, I think we had a really
before she died, I think we had a really important time with her.
important time with her. And
And I'm sure she is, you know,
I'm sure she is, you know, playing dominoes with Ann Richards and
playing dominoes with Ann Richards and Molly Ivins and great other female Texas
Molly Ivins and great other female Texas politicians. Um
politicians. Um Democrats. But um cuz my mom was very
Democrats. But um cuz my mom was very radically political, but
radically political, but uh
the window of grief was just years of There There was, you know,
There There was, you know, very early on there was no calling her
very early on there was no calling her to say, oh, Charlie got a really cute
to say, oh, Charlie got a really cute date. Let me show you the homecoming
date. Let me show you the homecoming pictures. Or hey, Ellen, you know, got
pictures. Or hey, Ellen, you know, got into her master's program. That that all
into her master's program. That that all just went away. Just every
just went away. Just every week.
week. And so
And so that's why, you know, the whole the
that's why, you know, the whole the whole Strong Ground book, there's a
whole Strong Ground book, there's a there's a sentence in the in the first
there's a sentence in the in the first chapter that said, I have a sticky note
chapter that said, I have a sticky note on my window on my mirror in the
on my window on my mirror in the bathroom that says, I'd rather be the
bathroom that says, I'd rather be the oldest woman in the gym than the
oldest woman in the gym than the youngest woman in assisted living. Mhm.
youngest woman in assisted living. Mhm. Because
Because I do believe in the connection around
I do believe in the connection around exercise, you know, dementia. And I I
exercise, you know, dementia. And I I took care of my grandmother with
took care of my grandmother with dementia with my mom.
And my mom and my grandmother made a lot of different lifestyle choices than I've
of different lifestyle choices than I've made, but
made, but the whole Strong Ground metaphor is that
the whole Strong Ground metaphor is that I went to go see a trainer.
I went to go see a trainer. And one day he looked at me and he said,
And one day he looked at me and he said, he called me Brown. He said, find the
he called me Brown. He said, find the ground, Brown.
ground, Brown. And I looked down and I said, okay. And
And I looked down and I said, okay. And he goes, not the floor, the ground. Take
he goes, not the floor, the ground. Take your feet,
your feet, push in to the ground. Use your mind to
push in to the ground. Use your mind to connect with your body. Push into the
connect with your body. Push into the ground and then tell your mind you're
ground and then tell your mind you're going to be using [ __ ] lats.
going to be using [ __ ] lats. And I was like, okay. So I did it
And I was like, okay. So I did it and I felt them.
and I felt them. And I started whispering every time I
And I started whispering every time I would do a weightlifting thing, strong
would do a weightlifting thing, strong ground, strong ground.
ground, strong ground. Strong ground. An unbelievable
Strong ground. An unbelievable unbelievable book. So if we we didn't
unbelievable book. So if we we didn't cover everything in this book today,
cover everything in this book today, which is a great shame, but hopefully
which is a great shame, but hopefully we'll speak again in the future. But
we'll speak again in the future. But it's the lessons of daring leadership,
it's the lessons of daring leadership, the tenacity of of paradox, which is
the tenacity of of paradox, which is something I was keen to talk about, and
something I was keen to talk about, and the wisdom of the human spirit. All of
the wisdom of the human spirit. All of your books are amazing. You said it
your books are amazing. You said it earlier on that someone called you a
earlier on that someone called you a wizard when you were younger. That's
wizard when you were younger. That's exactly what I think you are.
exactly what I think you are. I think you're a wizard.
I think you're a wizard. Why? I think you're a wizard. You have a
Why? I think you're a wizard. You have a unbelievable pattern recognition,
unbelievable pattern recognition, understanding of humans. You have so
understanding of humans. You have so many wide reference points that it
many wide reference points that it appears to be magic to a muggle like me.
appears to be magic to a muggle like me. We're out I had a time in the team and
We're out I had a time in the team and we're going to run through the door if
we're going to run through the door if I'm not careful.
I'm not careful. But we have a closing tradition on this
But we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a
podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing
question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. You actually
who they're leaving it for. You actually know this person. Is you? I know the
know this person. Is you? I know the next guest? No, you know the one that
next guest? No, you know the one that left the question for you. Oh, got it.
left the question for you. Oh, got it. But they didn't know it was for you.
But they didn't know it was for you. Dear beautiful and highly intelligent
Dear beautiful and highly intelligent next guest,
next guest, what are you optimizing for right now?
Strength and longevity. Mentally, physically, spiritually, and
Mentally, physically, spiritually, and emotionally.
Strong ground. The lesson The lessons of daring
The lesson The lessons of daring leadership, the tenacity of paradox, and
leadership, the tenacity of paradox, and the wisdom of the human spirit. You are
the wisdom of the human spirit. You are You are
You are I was trying to think if there was any
I was trying to think if there was any others. You are the single most
others. You are the single most requested guest um and you have been on
requested guest um and you have been on the show for for a long, long time, for
the show for for a long, long time, for three or four years. When we ask people
three or four years. When we ask people who they want me to speak to, they say
who they want me to speak to, they say your name. And they say your name
your name. And they say your name because of these the incredible work
because of these the incredible work you've done through your own podcast,
you've done through your own podcast, which I'm going to link on the screen
which I'm going to link on the screen and below right now, but also through
and below right now, but also through some of these incredible books which
some of these incredible books which have changed people's lives. If you're
have changed people's lives. If you're unfamiliar with Brené's work, um
unfamiliar with Brené's work, um I think people will understand after
I think people will understand after listening today how much they're missing
listening today how much they're missing out on. I'd highly recommend you go and
out on. I'd highly recommend you go and listen to Brené's podcasts, um but also
listen to Brené's podcasts, um but also to
to check out this book Strong Ground, which
check out this book Strong Ground, which I'm going to I'm going to link below. Um
I'm going to I'm going to link below. Um also Dare to Lead. I think all of um
also Dare to Lead. I think all of um all of the leadership team in my office
all of the leadership team in my office reference Dare to Lead so often, which
reference Dare to Lead so often, which is an incredible book about Brave Work,
is an incredible book about Brave Work, Tough Decisions, and Whole Hearts. You
Tough Decisions, and Whole Hearts. You make the most beautiful artwork. I
make the most beautiful artwork. I consider these books to be artwork again
consider these books to be artwork again because they pull on so many different
because they pull on so many different reference points to make something that
reference points to make something that feels so original. And you've helped so
feels so original. And you've helped so many people. The fact that my audience
many people. The fact that my audience have demanded I speak to you for so long
have demanded I speak to you for so long I think is testament to that. And um
I think is testament to that. And um you're a wonderful human being. And
you're a wonderful human being. And actually one of the things you've
actually one of the things you've inspired me to be
inspired me to be is myself.
is myself. Because that's exactly what I find you
Because that's exactly what I find you to be. So, thank you so much, Brené, for
to be. So, thank you so much, Brené, for your time today. It's deeply, deeply
your time today. It's deeply, deeply appreciated, more so than I could say.
appreciated, more so than I could say. And I think you're a wonderful human
And I think you're a wonderful human being. Please come back again soon. I
being. Please come back again soon. I will. I have enjoyed every minute of
will. I have enjoyed every minute of this. I would say it has not been easy
this. I would say it has not been easy cuz we went to some hard places
cuz we went to some hard places together,
together, but [clears throat] it's been
but [clears throat] it's been meaningful.
meaningful. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. >> [music]
Chrome Uzantısı