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Christopher Hitchens vs. Douglas Wilson Debate at Westminster

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Core Theme

This content is a transcript of a debate between Christopher Hitchens, an atheist, and Douglas Wilson, a Christian minister, on topics of faith, reason, and the nature of reality. The core theme revolves around the fundamental disagreement between their worldviews: Hitchens argues for a universe governed by natural laws and chance, while Wilson posits a divinely ordered cosmos.

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welcome sorry for our lateness it took

them a few minutes to get our espresso

just right I believe they were able to do

it this uh event began with an

invitation to host Mr Hitchens and Mr

Wilson on our campus and given that my

apologetics class meets on Thursday

evenings they should be here in the

front yeah there you go

semester I thought to myself what a

great opportunity for the class and then

I thought why not open this up to others

who might be interested so we're glad

you you're here uh welcome to my

introduction to apologetics class

welcome to Westminster or if you're fans

of Mr Hitchens welcome to the poison

Factory this is where we poison

Minds there will be um information

available at uh the booth out here for

those interested uh in Westminster and

possibility of taking classes here also

another announcement the bookstore will

be selling the book in the lobby for $10

immediately following the uh discussion

here and we'll also be open immediately

following uh the debate if you want to

purchase uh other books we will have a

book signing after our discussion is

over just a few words of introduction

before we begin Christopher Hitchens was

born in England and educated at Oxford

where he read philosophy politics and

economics we had a lively political

discussion on the way here happy to

anything in 1981 he immigrated to the

United States and was officially made a

citizen in

2007 Mr Hitchens is a journalist and the

author of several books in including God

Is Not Great letters to a young

contrarian and why Orwell

matters he regularly writes for the

Atlantic Monthly and Slate from 1982 to

2002 he wrote a column called The

Minority Report for the nation he was

named one of the top 100 public

intellectuals by foreign policy in

Britain's Prospect in case you're

wondering what a public intellectual is

Hitch has this to say about that he says

what then are the uses of the term

public intellectual it assists Us in

defining someone who makes his or her

living through the Battle of

ideas if the uh age old adage that one

should steer clear of both religion and

politics is true then Christopher

Hitchens is the embodiment of its

Counterpoint a few years ago Hitchens

was called by George Galloway a quote

poppen to which uh Hitchens in typical

humor and wit quickly replied only some

of which is

true he's been called quote an

intellectual willing to show his teeth

in the cause for

righteousness America's foremost rhetorical

rhetorical

pugilist and one of the most prolific as

well as brilliant journalist

of our

time in his book God Is Not Great

Hitchens in his typical roundabout way

that's meant to be humorous says the

following he says Augustine was a

self-centered fantasist and an Earth centered

centered

ignoramus he was guiltily convinced that

God cared about his trivial theft from

some unimportant pear trees and quite

persuaded by an analogous solop ISM that

the sun revolved around the

earth later on he also notes quoting him

here I have probably set up later and

longer with religious friends than with

any other kind these friends often

irritate me by saying that I am a quote

not he says I know enough about all

religions to know that I would always be

an Infidel at all times and in all all

places but my particular atheism is a Protestant

Protestant

atheism when my father died and was

buried in a chapel overlooking

Portsmouth I gave the address from the

pulpit and selected as my text a verse

from the Epistle of Saul of

Tarsus quote finally Brethren whatsoever

things are true whatsoever things are

honest whatsoever things are lovely

whatsoever things are of good report if

there be any virtue and if there be any

praise think on these things unquote

Hitchens continues I chose this because

of its haunting and Elusive character

which will be with me at the last hour

and for its essentially secular

injunction and because it Shone out from

the Wasteland of rant and complaint and

nonsense and bullying which surrounds

it as I write these words and as you

read them hitchon says people of Faith

are in their different ways planning

your and my destruction and the

destruction of all the hard one human

attainments that I have touched upon and

everything Douglas Wilson is a senior

fellow of theology at new St Andrews he

received a bachelor's degree in

classical studies and Ma in philosophy

all at the University of Idaho he has

taught High School Latin Greek and

classical literature at logos school at

other colleges he has taught ethics and

logic Mr Wilson has been the pastor of

Christ Church Moscow for more than 30

years he also sits on the governing

Boards of logos School Moscow and the

association of classical and Christian

Schools Doug is the author of the case

for classical Christian education

reforming marriage Heaven misplaced

letter from a Christian citizen which is

a major national response to the recent

bestseller of atheist Sam Harris his

other works on theology include mother

Kirk reformed is not enough and to a thousand

thousand

Generations he's also written a serrated

edge a brief defense of biblical satire

in trinitarian

skylarking and several children's books

he's the editor of credenda agenda

magazine Doug and his wife Nancy have

three grown children and many

grandchildren all of whom live in

Moscow it's impossible as I soon CED to

pick out uh Wilson's wittiest

commentaries they are much too numerous

we could be here all evening so to give

you a flavor I take a portion of

Wilson's review recent review of a book

entitled The Shack which is sweeping the

Evangelical landscape today first

Wilson's Commendation the book he says

is filled with numerous insights into

what makes people tick and those

insights are wise shrewd pastoral tender

and they deal with sins at the

root unquote there are however problems

so Wilson continues and this brings me

to the way in which this book was simply terrible

terrible

Blasphemous but before going on I have

to hasten to add that it is a peculiar

form of Evangelical blasphemy one that

is well-intentioned and

naive he says I remember one time I was

at a conference where the group I was

with was sharing the venue with another

group so one time I sat in on the Chapel

Services of that other group and they

began singing spring up oh well which

was fine with me but since the song

involved water somebody had developed

hand motions and and jumpy up and down

motions so there was this room full of

adult Christians jumping up and down

along but then they got to a verse where

it was all about the blood of Christ

instead of water they continued right on

with the hand motions and the jumping

and the only thing missing was the rubber

rubber

ducky and then he concludes nobody

can one of the things you may note about

tonight's speakers is that they have

much in common with respect to their

understanding of religion generally and

of Christianity in particular both men

agree that religion can pose serious

problems to our understanding of Truth

TR both men agree that at least certain

aspects of Christianity in particular

can be a roadblock rather than a conduit to

truth Mr Hitchens of course sees the

problem as the entire set of religions

Mr Wilson sees the truth of the

Christian religion as the only way to

deal with its false

permutations the reason we are here

however is not because of what Mr

Hitchens and Mr Wilson have in common

rather we are here because what Mr

Hitchens and Mr Wilson do not have in

common is so foundational and decisive

that it determines and directs

everything else that they claim to

believe and to be for Mr Hitchens God Is

Not Great for Mr Wilson God is so great

that even an argument against him

depends on that

greatness the format of our discussion

tonight will be this we will first have

a presentation from Mr Wilson

followed by one from Mr Hitchens we will

then have a response first from Mr

Wilson then from Mr Hitchens we will

then have closing statements from each

after which time we will invite

questions from the audience now what I'd

like to do is uh ensure that we have a

balanced array of questions so I'll ask

if you have a question for Mr Hitchens

you stand on this aisle at that

microphone this is the Hitchens aisle

and over over here is the Wilson aisle

if you have a question for Mr Wilson

stand over there and we'll try to

alternate back and forth uh as much as

we're able to do that I will moderate

those questions and those of you in my

apologetics class will know that I have

not much tolerance for uh effusive

commentary so it could be that many of

you are better Debaters than anyone up

here but this won't be your time to show

that so what I'd like to do is uh limit

commentary to some extent and ask you to

uh please address questions uh to the

speakers after our discussion and debate

is over uh both Mr Hitchens and Mr

Wilson will be on stage to sign uh their

books again they'll be on sale out there

if you'd like one I would ask you to

line up here we'll move the table back

and to come across this way and exit

there so that we can do that in an

orderly way and um so that they can at

least have some breathing room so

without a further Ado we are honored to

have both of our guests with us tonight

Mr Doug Wilson Mr Christopher Hitchens

them well thank you all it is a great

honor for me to be here i' I've visited

this campus once just to walk through

and take a look and you that that was a

pleasure and honor but it's a a very

great honor to to address you all speak

to you and I want to thank Christopher

for uh being such a good sport on this

little tour that we're doing from New

York to Philly to DC tomorrow uh we've

had uh a grand old time thus far and I'm

I'm very grateful for the whole thing um

in the introduction it said um the

Christopher read philosophy at Oxford I

tried to read philosophy at the

University of Idaho and I remember one

time sitting in the library reading

in U one out of the the U classes the

various classes that I've taught or

instructed at logos school and and new

canders one of the things I've done one

of the classes I've taught is uh

classical rhetoric and at new St Andrews

and one of the things that they teach

you in classical R rhetoric is that

persuasion is not not not just

argumentation and reason the logos but

it's also pathos uh an emotive appeal

and Ethos your your situation your

character and what what you can do to

persuade an audience that you're for

real and uh so one of the things I

wanted to do to establish my ethos at

um and and you will know if I feel like

I'm starting to lose the debate I will

of course the U one of the things that

we've been talking about and and each

element of of this Triad will come up

probably every time Christopher and I

talk it U it it did in New York and it

will probably uh certainly do so tonight

and then on to U DC is the ancient Triad

of Truth goodness and Beauty truth

goodness and Beauty one of the things I

wanted to focus on this evening was

Beauty but not because the other two

things are irrelevant and those uh

certainly can come up in the questions

or or in our exchanges but the way I

want to argue the way I want to talk

about this is that the Bible and God uh

is not something that I am interested in

reasoning my way too um I don't believe

that Christopher Christopher and I could

find Common Ground um agree upon the

rules of historical investigation or

agree upon the the laws of logic and

then reason our way to God there are

many uh Christian apologists who believe

that that's that is possible to do um I

don't reject evidences U but I'm not an

evidentialist I I believe that evidences

have their place in apologetics but I

don't believe that they should be

foundational what I'm interested in

doing is asking uh asking about the

preconditions for any sort of statement

so in a debate I think it's necessary to

do two things for those who are

observing the debate um what's what is

necessary to do is not only look at what

the person is saying uh what argument is

coming out of him what is he

articulating but also take a look at his

feet uh what is he standing on in order

to make that sort of statement in other

words I I would like to invite you to

ask not only um not only to hear what

Christopher says about what he believes

about the nature of the world but then

ask ask yourself well if he's correct

and the world really is that way would

he be able to make that statement right

would does any sort of statement follow

um that's rationally coherent from his

Assumption of the way the world is put

simply if the universe is time and

chance acting on matter if the universe

if the cosmos is simply matter in motion

then everything I think feel respond to

is also matter in motion if the universe

if the cosmos is matter in motion then

this table is matter in motion and

what's going on in my head is matter in

motion with luck what's that with any

quiet if um now if you have uh the

illustration I used before and I've and

I I will continue to use it until I I

see a or hear a satisfactory response if

we were to take two bottles of pop

Mountain Dew Dr Pepper and shake them up

and put them on the table here and they

were both fizzing over it wouldn't occur

to any we couldn't fill the auditorium

first off and it wouldn't occur to

anybody who happened to wander through

the auditorium uh to ask which one of

the bottles of pop was winning the

debate uh they are not debating they are

simply fizzing they are simply matter in

motion that's all it is is a chemical

reaction now if there is no God if the

universe is simply matter in motion if

the universe is simply a series of

chemical reactions and we have in our

bodies a series of chemical reactions

then we have no reason for believing our

thoughts to be true and that means that

we have no reason for believing that our

thoughts are chemical reactions the

whole thing collapses on itself now that

argument I think applies to each one of

these things that I'm talking about it

applies to our reasoning capacity if the

universe is simply ultimate chaos then

why would we trust logic if the universe

is Ultimate chaos then what is the basis

for Morality goodness and of interest to

me tonight if there is no God then how

can we possibly say that anything is

beautiful or lovely objectively

beautiful or lovely um you can't say

anything is object jeely true you can't

say anything is objectively good and you

can't say that anything is objectively

beautiful you can you can tell us what

your preferences are but that's what

they are only preferences now in the

short time that we've been doing this

tour together Christopher and I have

found out that we have a number of

common interests uh literature and

poetry among them and the writings of PG

Woodhouse at the uh right near the top

we had a good time at lunch yesterday

voting sections out of woodhouse's work

Woodhouse was a master writer he was a

master of metaphor he was good at it but

what does that mean in an atheistic

Universe what does it mean to say

someone is good at it if someone is a is

good at at ballet or good at painting or

good at composing concertos why is that

any different from any other uh

concatenation of atams going on in some

other quadrant of the universe why do we

point to one part of this U um this

little Riot of matter and say that's

lovely that's beautiful that's good that

should be published let it Let It Go

that should be um bought by the art

gallery that should be accepted and

promoted and so forth and this over here

is sentimental kitch this over here is

no good this over here is is not worth

the time of

day well atheists of course

um make value judgments all the time

they make moral judgments they make

truth claims and they make aesthetic um

observations Christopher is a very

gifted writer he's good at what he does

he's a

Craftsman and so I'm not disputing

whether or not Christopher seeks to be a

good person or seeks to be a rational

person or seeks to be a Wordsmith I know

that he seeks all all of those what I'm

looking for is warrant what is the

warrant for that what is the account

coun in that you can give of that is it

possible to say the universe is governed

by no God the universe is meaningless

the universe has no teeology the

universe is going

nowhere but this is lovely this is

beautiful this is a master work and I

don't believe that that's possible to Su

to sustain I don't believe you can um

maintain objective standards rooted

outside our subjective experience and

any one of these three areas whether

it's truth goodness or

beauty that being the case uh what I'd

like to do is sort of um anticipate an

objection and then um wrap up the

anticipated objection is uh one that

I've seen an atheist make that this

argument since the universe is

meaningless any subset of it is

meaningless um and rejected as the

fallacy of division um the fallacy of

division is an informal logical fallacy

not a not a formal structural fallacy

but an informal logical fallacy which

says that if uh something is true of the

whole that it must be true of the part

and so the atheist could object just

because the universe is meaningless

doesn't mean that this little part of it

is meaningless well as an informal

fallacy sometimes informal fallacies are

true sometimes they are accurate

observations other times they are not so

for example if I were to say the Pacific

Ocean is made up of salt water then

it follows that this bucket of water

from the Pacific Ocean is also salt

water what's true of the whole is true

of the part it's not it's a fallacy when

I say that this um uh the the Pacific

Ocean taken in its entirety is heavy

therefore a thimble full of water from

the Pacific Ocean must also be heavy no

it's light uh that's the fallacy of

division in action so the question is

does the meaningless does the

meaninglessness of the

universe translate down to the

particulars like saltwater does with the

Pacific Ocean I believe so I believe

that if there's no thology if there's no

point if there's no Direction then that

fact haunts you down into all of your

endeavors all of your Pursuits

especially especially uh concerning your

aesthetic Pursuits anyone who thinks

that the history of philosophy has not

had an impact on the production of Art

part in our culture I think is simply

not paying attention it does translate

and and it has I believe uh genuinely

aesthetic uh damaging effects so thank

um my fellow

Americans it's taken me a long time to

get to say that uh by the way does

anyone here have the nerve to put up

their hand and say they know why it's

Series there's always one smart

ass you be quiet for a second uh it took

me 25 years I I immigrated here 27 years

ago why do they call it the World Series

it's a game no one else

plays maybe Dominica perhaps Haiti Japan

okay Canada but come on World Series

what and it was interesting every

American I knew said why wouldn't it be

game you will in a second see where I'm

going with this but I wouldn't accept

you no though there must be a reason why

it's got that name and it took I chased it

it down

down

the contest the event was sponsored by

the new a newspaper called the New York

world now defunct everything's gone

about the New York world no one

remembers it no one reads it but the

World Series survives as a kind of ghost

uh remnant of this uh it could have been

called could have been called the post

series but I don't think Americans would

have been so proud of

it I'm only saying just to begin with

beware of solipsism as uh Dr olant was

so kind as to remind you don't ever

think you are the center of the world be

very careful of assuming that you are

the object of a Divine Design that

there's something special just about

being you that that's all you have to

Pro them why wouldn't a person such as

yourself have God on their side why

wouldn't it be of course God would care

who I slept with what I ate what holy

day I observed why would he not surely

that's why the heavens are arranged in

the starry uh Beauty and array that they

the form they take and then you read

Hamlet's uh reflections with yoro at the

side of the grave and you are forced to

wonder if maybe be even though it's a

less beautiful thought it could be that

um this the galaxies are not arranged

with you in mind well I've already got

ahead of myself by not thanking you for

having me here when and for not

thanking uh Dr olant for his extremely

warm and generous introduction when I

first published my pmic against theism I

told my Publishers I didn't want the

conventional New York tour I didn't want

to go to New York Washington Chicago

Berkeley San Francisco and so forth I

wanted to go to the South and um I

wanted to go to colleges that were

devout and I wanted to ask for a

challenge wherever I went and I have to

say I've been very impressed and touched

by the willingness of people to accept

this Challenge and to and to invite this

Abus of hospitality um into their own

and all I ask in return is that this

aisle be permanently named for me

gone all

right the problem of relativism the

problem that uh Douglas Wilson has been

uh assailing you with correctly the

problem of saying that that really

judgment is impossible that no one value

is greater than another that

subspec I turnit Artis under the under

the eye and and scrutiny of Heaven

nothing really matters it doesn't really

who cares who wins the second world war

who cares whether uh Black Americans

become full citizens or not who Minds

why would we care why is that and is it

perhaps something of the aesthetic in

ourselves um such as was stated by the

great English Romantic Poets who did

take aide for Humanity and for humanism

Often by the way against theocracy and

almost always against religion when they

said beauty is truth truth beauty that

is all you know and all you need to know

on Earth

Earth beautiful statement once you've

heard it you can't forget it it ranks to

me with another statement made by

another great person of the

Enlightenment a little earlier Thomas

Jefferson who says and once you've heard

this you won't forget it

either I tremble for my country when I

reflect that God is just he's talking about

about

slavery it's a beautiful statement

there's no question about it it also has

a certain uh equilibrium to it you I

think you'll agree um and yet when you

think about it for a moment if there is

a just God what is the need to

tremble if there's a just

God all our concerns are trivial by

comparison why would we weep why would

we care why would we mind a just God

trumps any any possible anxiety or

difficulty or crisis we might have but

if there isn't a just God and there

isn't because the heavens are empty then

you might have to to abolish slavery by

yourself and not require uh the Divinity

and Justice of the sublime and the

paradisal to do it for you you'd have to take

take

responsibility it isn't beautiful to say

no I don't want the responsibility I

will refer it upward to a supreme

unchallengeable I would say tyrannical

because unchallengeable and unchangeable

essentially absolutist I would go as far

as to say totalitarian Authority the

things that happen to us in this veil of

Tears will go on happening to us as they

did to our predecessors and as they will

to our descendants when we are

dust and these things cannot be avoided

and they cannot be referred upwards and

outwards to a dictatorial

view uh let me give you an example let

me give you a couple of examples I wrote

a book about the

pathon um most I think most objective

people would say it's the most beautiful

Temple of the ancient world Perhaps

Perhaps the most beautiful Temple ever

built by human hands it's extraordinary

Symmetry and

Harmony uh makes it quite different from

the other temples that claimed to

conquer death because the conquest of

death is the first thing the Barbarian

wants to claim and all barbarian

monarchies want that's why the pyramids

are built to show that death has no

power we'll outlive it uh that's why

Babylon was built that's why carac was

built all the great temples of the

ancient world when I visit them strike

me with horror they're built by slaves

they they're building is commissioned by

slave owners it's so obvious that

they're built to impress to oppress to

dominate to grind people down the pathon

is lightness and

everybody and it's a new

departure and uh though there are

terrible things about it I'll mention

some The Cult of Palace Athena

fictitious godess uh the the eleusinian

Mysteries Hocus Pocus sprung on the

peasantry by Greek priests the the the

sculpture on the freeze probably shows

Human Sacrifice we can't be certain of

it but it looks very likely that sacri

human sacrifice was going on there even

though Keats wrote so beautifully about

uh that procession in his own version of

truth beauty and and Beauty true beauty being

being

true uh but but I think the cultural

project is this ladies and gentlemen

brothers and sisters

comrades friends it's this the cultural

project can we rescue can we

separate the beauty symmetry Harmony and

civilization of pre-christian Prem

monotheistic Pagan polytheistic Greece

can we keep what if that is valuable and

useful and philosophical and poetic and

dramatic while dumping the supernatural

the superstitious the cultish and of

course the Athenian genocidal imp IST

that sent expeditions to destroy the

whole populations of islands and

neighboring republics with which it

disagreed or which didn't which refus to

pay tribute yes I believe it is possible

I believe it is possible in the same

sense as I know it's true that even as

verie wrote his requium he didn't

believe in God he didn't need to believe

in God to produce that beautiful music

it isn't true that secularism can't

produce a cathedral or or an opera it is

true however that a secular civilization

will have to keep what is valuable of

the beauty and symmetry of religious art

and devotional architecture while

rejecting the Supernatural and the

superstitious you see the Supernatural

and the superstitious are not the same

as the numinous and the

Transcendent I don't come before you

atheist and materialist as I am as

someone who simply

says that Douglas Wilson and I are two

competing bottles of Dr

pepper nor do I come before you as

someone who says I was created out of

dust or as the Quran would say out of a

clot of blood that I'm an abject surf

that I'm a piece of nothingness

fashioned out of garbage by a capricious

tyrannical God that's even a worse in

I'd rather be Dr Pepper than that I have

to tell you me too but now let's

contrast the numinous and the

Transcendent to the superstitious and

the supernatural Francis

Francis

Collins my new friend Christian believer

CS Lewis fan commissioner of the Human

Genome Project great physician great

scientist great humanitarian he says he

goes on he's a pantheist in effect I

think he goes on a long hike into the

mountains and he comes at one point I

think it's in your home state of

Washington I may be wrong but it's I

think it's in the Pacific

Northwest he comes to on his hike to a

point where there's a Triune water

waterfall a threein one waterfall

falling and yet arrested in its fall

Trinity anyone who understands Harmony

symmetry the beauty of nature will

understand what Dr Collins is saying he

says in his own account he says I at

that point when seeing it I fell to my

knees and I accepted Jesus Christ as my

personal savior some of you may have had

similar experiences I don't know I'm

immune to this kind of thing but I'm I'm

not indifferent to it

where does he get off with such a non

seator it is of course very beautiful to

see a three fingered Frozen waterfall

what if it had been four fingers and not

a trinity would he not have accepted

Jesus Christ as his personal savior did

you see the slack Jord gaping propaganda

of the World Trade Center when when

everything was all cleared away at the

bottom of the girders there was a a

cross standing there all buildings are

built with a cross-hatch of Steel it's

well known they go like this like all

windows it would be amazing if there

wasn't a cross if it was a star and

Cresent made of out of melted steel I'd

be really

impressed and so would the people who

blew up the building and want you all to

die if it had been a star of David okay

sake now let's be serious this stuff is

not true and it's not beautiful and it's

not symmetrical it is superstition it is

the way the Mind searches for form and

will find it if it's looking for it and

looks for symbols and looks for miracles

and Revelations where they're not really

there and is terribly easily Satisfied

by tiny little bits of pseudo

magic but if you want to be all inspired

ladies and gentlemen and let me say let

me just tell you that those of us who do

not believe we are divinely created let

alone divinely supervised are not immune

to the idea of awe and beauty and uh and

the the

Transcendent let me invite you to look

for a moment at the pictures taken by

the Hubble telescope some of you may

have done it if you haven't done it now

or yet do it soon the extraordinary

Revelations of of of of swirling yet

somehow beautiful new galaxies uh in in

color and depth and Majesty like nothing

I think the human eye has ever seen turn

away from that if you wish and say and

gaze at a burning

bush in in an illiterate desert part of

the Middle East and say that that's

where Revelation comes from I don't

believe you'll be able to do it or read

a page of the of Stephen Hawking on the

absolute magnificence and consistency

and underlying Beauty as Einstein says

the great miracle of of physics is there

r no Miracles it all it all carries on

holding together all the time there are

no interruptions in its order there are

no suspensions of it just to please

Joshua or just to please some sect or

tribe or group no it's much much much

more impressive than that I know I've

talked for a little too long but I'm

just I'm going to do this if it kills me

has a colleague who looked at the Event

Horizon of the black hole do you know

what I'm talking about you know what a

black hole is at any rate if you could

travel towards a black

hole not yet possible to do if you could

in theory The Event Horizon is the point

at which the black hole is pulling

everything into itself so over into the

black hole goes light itself it's so

strong it can pull light back into

itself it's really all inspiring a lot

more say than a crowd of pigs Infested

by Devils running down a hill into the

sea which is a piece of sorcery and

cheap magic of the sort that shouldn't

impress any thinking person think about

a black hole

instead pulling the light into itself

The Event Horizon just

reorganizing nature so that if you could

get to that lip the lip of that event

horizon and fall in go in you could in

theory see the past and the

future stretching before and in front of

you you would see time except you

wouldn't have the time to do it of

course if you were mere if you were a

mere primate as we are but Hawking has a

colleague who says if he knew he was

dying of the termal of terminal illness

that's how he'd want to go out it's over

the lip of the Event Horizon that would

be Majesty that would be magnificence

that would be all inspiring that would be

apocalyptic so it's in the natural world

it's in the world of science and the

world of innovation and Discovery and

doubt we wouldn't have discovered any of

these things if we taken the religious

story granted for granted to begin with

we would have said we already know

enough we know God made this God wants

it this way what's the need for inquiry

we already have all the information we

need the big difference between this

side of the house mine and the other is

this I am absolutely certain that I do

not know but that it might be possible

to find out and that doubt and

skepticism and

Innovation and inquiry are the only

means by which wonder and beauty and awe

and symmetry will

be discovered and Beyond those Peaks we

can yet see new more wonderful Peaks

will rise whereas on the Wilson side of

the house it is said we already have the

certainty we we know that God created us

and we even claim to know his mind and

what he wants of us and I just invite

you to open your minds to the

possibility that the skeptical and the

inquiring and the doubtful will be

better than anything that caus itself

Faith because anything that calls itself

Faith calls itself certainty and for

certainty I think there is no place in

an Institute of intellectual mentation

and higher education um very grateful to

you all for giving me the chance to say

you

right I believe the drill was to uh

interact for a little bit and then uh

closing statements I I would like to uh

make a couple of quick observations and

then ask a few questions the observation

would be um Christopher and I were

talking this morning about uh whether I

believed in the miracle of the the gine

swine that he referred to and I

certainly do I accept all the Miracles

of the of the Bible descri as described

in the Bible but I mentioned to him the

gine swine rule which is just because a

group is in formation it doesn't mean

going the other thing that I would like

to point out about that is that it's not

an either or thing it's not as though uh

by believing that Jesus did a miracle

with the Gathering swine that I'm

thereby prohibited from believing that

there are Marvels to be seen through the

hubel uh telescope but it's not I'm not

forced to choose one or the other uh I

believe that Marvels occur on the grand

Cosmic scale and Marvels occur at levels

much smaller than what occurred uh with

the gine swine so just God is a

macrocosmic God and God is a microcosmic

God he is he speaks in the great things

and he speaks in the little things the

difficulty here one of thing about this

if when you think about um crossing over

the Event Horizon into a black hole and

you get to the point where you see the

future in the past at the same time or

you think about quantum mechanics and

things U uh traveling like a particle

and arriving like a wave or vice versa

or the same thing you know they're both

at the same time that sort of thing the

thing that astonishes me when I when I

read um physicists particularly

atheistic um uh fellows who are evoking

a sense of wonder out of their

descriptions of these sorts of things

and you heard Christopher just do it

they then turn around and say that they

have objections to the doctrine of the

Holy Trinity because they can't make

sense of

it does it make sense to you that you

could see the past and the future at the

same time provided you were headed

toward a big black hole of

nothing would you sketch that for me on

the Blackboard please oh of course could

be done Trinity can't be done in that

circle

so the the

point now the point is that there are

Mysteries Beyond us right this the the

issue is not whether there are things in

the universe that will stagger us and

make us go wo uh the issue is when you

reflect on what you think is actually

going on when you think when you reflect

on what is actually going on and you say

there's no purpose in this there's no

design behind it it's just a plain weird

crazy place I believe that you have um

uh taken removed the aesthetic element

you've remove the element of intention

it may be big it may be it may be crazy

it may be wild it may be chaotic but

it's not lovely but if it is designed by

God in other words if all those galaxies

that you can see through the Hubble pict

pictures if all those galaxies if if the

Crab Nebula and all of those things were

put there on purpose by the Triune God

of scripture then you have not only

something that's Grand and big in scope

but you have intentionality you have

what I would call Artistry God is a

great artist now here's the difficulty

when uh Christopher early on early in

his uh and this will lead up to my

question when when you be when you be

begin with why would he care why would

God care why should I take a solipsistic

approach and assume that God would care

who I slept with well if I said why

would he care um who I and then I drew a

blank uh it's not just it

cannot you could fill it in with more

than who I slept with or who I lusted

after in my heart you could fill it in

with who I killed whose family family's

Village I destroyed whose Nation I blew

up because I felt like it um whose

nation and tribe I enslaved because it

just seemed like the thing to do at the

time um Christopher said when we

discover that we are not accountable

that we can't we have no court of

appeals that goes up to the top with

this totalitarian God as as Christopher

sees him um I see a father he sees Big

Brother what it boils down to um so I

see a loving father and he sees uh the

the Eternal um surveillance King

and and that that kind of thing and he

says well if there's no and thought

crime thought crime right and you have

um exactly so so you have uh you you

said if there is no God there we might

have to abolish slavery by ourselves

right and here's my question why

wouldn't you say we would have to

abolish slavery ourselves or not well

well indeed the or not is is always

pregnant there just as in in your

remarks just now about how God might

care about more than just who you slept

with I was picking a trivi example or by

the way in what position you did so or

on what holy day um you you wanted to

make it or or he killed the M you wanted

to make it more serious and said what

about who I kill well as no one here

doesn't know there are biblical mandates

for killing and indeed for the killing

of Nations and for the killing of tribal

groups and for the killing of all their

children so that their name be blotted

out and for in cases of some luckier

groups than the amalekites keeping only

their young women alive uh so that um

well per I think for purposes better

imagined than

described um so that there is a Divine

mandate for killing you can be told what

to do and and religion is obedience to

the Divine Law it isn't to say you would

behave as an ordinar moral person would

expect to behave with a Divine warrant

to do so no as any Mormon will tell you

if the the head of his church tells him

to commit a murder he has to assume that

the head of that church knows better

than he does that it might be for a much

higher reason but why are we having this

he would do something that no no morally

sane person would do because he was

religious now let's not let us not lose

sight of this point which you have in

our previous discussion several times

conceded if God wanted you to do it you

wouldn't ask the ordinary moral

questions and we know that there are

biblical warrants for slavery and for

genocide and so your point that

um that religion conforms to

ordinarily understood humanitarianism

simply fools that's the first thing so

my question is this I because I don't

see us really disagreeing at this point

I believe that it was okay to kill

amikit right because it was not okay to

not do it because God told them to kill

the amalekites uh we would differ on

well there you are I got you to say it

okay happy to say it and didn't get me

to say it no I know I know I know I know

of what I what I actually get a bang out

of is what I'm going to get you to say

next and that is um neither one of us

has a problem with killing am malachit I

don't have a problem with it because God

told him to do it you don't have a

problem with it because the universe

just doesn't care what happens to

malachit No actually that's not true

because what if I was an AM malachite

well that you're not the Universe well

no I'm sorry it still changes everything

doesn't because you're not an amachi

They're All Dead They're All Dead that

is what relativism means you know you

know don't you that it actually is true

there are discussions among Israeli

rabbis including Israeli rabbis in the

Israeli Army published in Israel

newspapers today to the say is the

Commandment to kill the amalekites

applicable to the Palestinian Arabs

Christian and Muslim or not is is amalik

still with us is he the name of our

enemy are we joined by God to destroy

all non-jews in the greater Palestinian

this stuff goes on and if they answer it

in the affirmative you don't mind this

is why I feel justified in the subtitle

of my book that to no to no argument

does religion add anything that doesn't

make it more

toxic now we wandered a little from the

symmetrical and the Beautiful Point

didn't we um but perhaps you oh the

Gathering I did have something because

you challenged me on the Gathering f

if you believe in all these Miracles

it's entirely up to you um there are

some Miracles I wish were true um the

first one is the best changing water

into wine for a

wedding works for me and also shows I

think a concession uh by

judeo-christianity to the influence of

helenismo as you know the Passover Seda

uh consists really of people lying

around on couches drinking wine asking

questions dialectically ocratic manner

bringing the children into the

discussion and so forth that's an admirable

admirable

um tradition on which to base um things

I think not enough of Judaism and

certainly not enough of Christianity is

based on that method but at least the

miracle of Kaa shows they knew the

importance of wine and they knew they

wouldn't sell their

religion um without that but the um

Gathering swine worries

me there may be a woman who's possessed

by demons and Devils I don't think such

a thing could POS could possibly happen

I don't think women are or anyone is

demonically or diabolically possessed

the prophet Muhammad believes that our

world is surrounded by demons and jins

they're around us all the time devils

are in the dust devils are in the dust

or in the air the um some very primitive

animist tribes believe this too no

decent thinking person can believe it

and even if it was to be the case that a

woman was possessed by a demon you can't

make the demon go away by making it go and

and

infect a group of pigs in order to make

them commit

suicide I mean in other words that

miracle if it were true wouldn't be

worth having it would it would be a

claim that your Prophet was a vulgar

sorcerer or was at least trying to

impress his followers with vulgar

Witchcraft and sorcery I leave that

point to you but to say that's either

true or beautiful seems to me to

blaspheme both terms quite badly the

difficulty uh with taking the miracle

that way the the fellow involved was

named Legion it was a guy not not a lady

uh and the pigs the pigs were an unclean

animal for the Jews um and when Jesus

cast the demons out the if you if you

think of it in terms of a simple wonder

worker who's out there Stupify The

Peasants and and you take it as a petty

miracle that way that whoa he killed the

pigs um then then of course you've got I

think you've got a point the the miracle

is todri and overdone if if that's all

you understand it to be but but the the

story ends it's quite striking with uh

the people in that Village had couldn't

keep this guy bound he was uh he lived

in the tombs and when Jesus cast the

demons out of him and the the pigs were

killed the people begged Jesus to leave

that region they liked they preferred

the devil they knew to the devil they

didn't know uh I think there's a

commentary being made on the state of

the spiritual um spiritual health and

spiritual vibrancy in Israel at that

time they didn't want Jesus there

messing with the arrangements that they

had made with the the accommodations

they had made so if if you simply assume

that with their demon Hol in Wells

correct in other words Jesus was um what

what Jesus did was he traveled around

casting out demons and what many people

don't realize is that demonism Shamanism

this sort of thing where that you

encounter still in many parts of the

world um that sort of thing was banished

exiled defeated and overcome precisely

by the Christian faith um if you're

encountering witch doctors and people

who are living in bondage to that kind

of thing whether it's um uh made up as

you believe or U genuine as I believe or

what is more likely a mixture of both I

believe that there's a great deal of

superstition mingled in with genuine um

spiritual problems if you believe if you

believe that then you say look well

let's look at the scoreboard let's look

at what has happened where the Christian

faith is gone uh we have been

instrumental as Christians in lifting

the clouds of superstition uh what you

glory in the enlightenment I don't think

was possible in witchcraft riddled

societies I think was dependent on the Christian

Christian

faith okay it's my answer ask question

isn't it I think yes I'm going to stay

on this point too by way of preface um

Senator John McCain is just nominated as

his running mate a woman who attends a

church in which spiritual warfare and

anti-demon tactics are regularly

discussed has been filmed having hands

laid on her by what I would describe as

an animist Bishop from from Kenya she

may describe as a Christian who who

talks about The Witches he's expelled

from his own area of the highlands of

Kenya so how can you say that

Christianity has rid us of the the

nonsensical idea of Witchcraft demonism

and exorcism to the contrary it's the

reason why these nonsensical barbaric

primitive ideas survive now I I hope I

don't take advantage of you if I tell

the audience with your permission oh

sure of of a question I asked you

yesterday and the answer you gave me I

asked Alis Wilson this suppose that

a soul I'll call it a soul for his sake

a person is born in Saudi Arabia today

into the wahhabi Theocratic society

would you rather that person became an

atheist or joined the majority religion

of that

state you want to tell them your answer

well i' I'd prefer you become an atheist

yeah I and I thought it was a very

honorable reply on your part and I want

to press it a little bit

um do you believe that Thomas aquinus

called a Saint by the Roman Catholic

church levitated and flew all around the

Nave of notame cathedral in Paris I'm

afraid you lost me I'm a good Protestant

right yeah I don't believe it either you

true do you think uh do do you think

that Muhammad took a night Journey on a

horse from the Arabian Peninsula to the

D of the Rock in Jerusalem and the horse

left a hoofprint before rocketing him up

to Paradise I'm you know I'm not with

that one I don't think so so here's my

question why how can you manage to say

calvinist because it's always seemed to

me as a secularist never mind an atheist

that either all religions uh

Supernatural claims must be true or none

of them are my own position or only one

of them is the least probable position

of all right the one you've decided to

occupy why is it that the miracle claims

are okay made by Calvinists and not by

Muslims other kinds of Christian or Jews

notice the structure of your argument

the structure of your argument is that L

you think it's called a structure well

it does and here it is um the the

structure of your argument is that

you're reasoning from the existence of

counterfeits to a denial of the genuine

article I I believe uh that there are

plenty of spurious Federal Reserve notes

uh printed up by counterfeits in their

basement and I believe that this

assertion that uh this bogus Thomas

aquinus $20 bill and bogus Islamic

flying horse $20 bill does not obligate

me in the slightest to deny the

existence of genuine currency I don't

see how you can argue from the existence

of counterfeits and fakes and knockoffs

to a denial of the genuine but I wasn't

doing so you were asking me I I was

asking how how on what you found your

assertion that yours yours is the only

true bill the ones the ones I believe in

the the ones I believe in are the ones I believe

believe

in yes for example I've spent I've spent

a lot of time on a small point but I

think is a big one um You probably or

some of you will know of the existence

of a of a text called the protocols of

the Learned Elders of Zion it's been it

was originally fabricated by Christian

Russian Orthodox fascists in the pay of

the zah to uh try and condemn the Jewish

people for a blood liel and a secret

government based on conspiracy and it's

now the chief paranoid document on the

website of Hamas and Islamic Jihad and

it's had a huge circulation in Christian

and Muslim religious circles for a very

long time it's usually described as a

forgery uh that if you've ever read

about it you'll have heard of it as a

forgery and I it's it may seem to you a

pedantic point but I don't think it is

whenever I write about it I say don't

call it a forgery why not forgery is a

copy of a true

document Protocols of the ERS of Zion is

not copy of a true document right it is

a fabrication it's a whole cloth hoax uh

it's it's a it's a criminal slander uh

invented out of H cloth there's nothing

forged about it at all there's no true

bill to begin with now do you see the

distinction yes well well why are your

Miracles the true bill and the others

are all copies of it because they

happened Jesus really did Jesus really

did rise from the dead which I believe

the on the same basis believed that sure

the fact Muhammed believes the fact that

aquinus didn't fly around Notre Dame

does not mean that he got everything

wrong no right so um I believe that I've

I was not there at the Battle of waterl

didn't see it happen I accept it on the

basis of eyewitness accounts and

authorities uh eyewitness uh accounts

that I deem to be reliable I do the same

thing with George Washington Crossing

the the Delaware I do the same thing

with the resurrection of Jesus from the

dead now I believe that you could

generate a whole host of protestant

Evangelical Protestant Miracles that I

don't believe in either I believe that

we ought to study it love the Lord Our

God with all our heart soul mind and

strength love the Lord Our God with all

our brains we should look at the

evidence and make a determination we

shouldn't just say oh it's a miracle

it's good uh and it serves the cause of

the Gospel or or it helps um keep people

in line or helps Inspire them if it's if

it's not true if it didn't happen we

should have nothing to do with it and

and I've been in Christian circles for

many years and I've heard all kinds of

Miracle stories that I don't believe

I've heard probably more Miracle stories

that I don't believe than Miracle

stories I do believe but as a Christian

I don't believe that I can go into the

Bible and pick and choose if Jesus did

not rise from the dead then we of all

men are most to be pied and so it it

doesn't matter how socially good it is

or bad from your count of from your

point of view what matters is the truth

devils are in the dust or in the air the

um some very primitive animist tribes

believe this too no decent thinking

person can believe it and even if it was

to be the case that a woman was

possessed by a demon you can't make the

demon go away by making it go and

infect a group of pigs in order to make

them commit

suicide I mean in other words that

miracle if it were true wouldn't be

worth having it would it would be a

claim that your Prophet was a vulgar

sorcerer or was at least trying to impress his followers with vulgar

impress his followers with vulgar Witchcraft and sorcery I leave that

Witchcraft and sorcery I leave that point to you but to say that's either

point to you but to say that's either true or beautiful seems to me to

true or beautiful seems to me to blaspheme both terms quite badly the

blaspheme both terms quite badly the difficulty uh with taking the miracle

difficulty uh with taking the miracle that way the the fellow involved was

that way the the fellow involved was named Legion it was a guy not not a lady

named Legion it was a guy not not a lady uh and the pigs the pigs were an unclean

uh and the pigs the pigs were an unclean animal for the Jews um and when Jes

animal for the Jews um and when Jes Jesus cast the demons out the if you if

Jesus cast the demons out the if you if you think of it in terms of a simple

you think of it in terms of a simple wonder worker who's out there Stupify

wonder worker who's out there Stupify The Peasants and and you take it as a

The Peasants and and you take it as a petty miracle that way that whoa he

petty miracle that way that whoa he killed the pigs um then of course you've

killed the pigs um then of course you've got I think you've got a point the the

got I think you've got a point the the miracle is todri and overdone if if

miracle is todri and overdone if if that's all you understand it to be but

that's all you understand it to be but but the the story ends it's quite

but the the story ends it's quite striking with uh the people in that

striking with uh the people in that Village had couldn't keep this guy bound

Village had couldn't keep this guy bound he was uh he lived in the tombs and when

he was uh he lived in the tombs and when Jesus cast the demons out of him and the

Jesus cast the demons out of him and the the pigs were killed the people begged

the pigs were killed the people begged Jesus to leave that region they liked

Jesus to leave that region they liked they preferred the devil they knew to

they preferred the devil they knew to the devil they didn't know uh I think

the devil they didn't know uh I think there's a commentary being made on the

there's a commentary being made on the state of the spiritual um spiritual

state of the spiritual um spiritual health and spiritual vibrancy in Israel

health and spiritual vibrancy in Israel at that time they didn't want Jesus

at that time they didn't want Jesus there messing with the Arrangements that

there messing with the Arrangements that they had made with the the

they had made with the the accommodations they had made so if if

accommodations they had made so if if you simply assume that with their demon

you simply assume that with their demon Hol in Worlds correct in other words

Hol in Worlds correct in other words Jesus was um what what Jesus did was he

Jesus was um what what Jesus did was he traveled around casting out demons and

traveled around casting out demons and what many people don't realize is that

what many people don't realize is that demonism Shamanism all this sort of

demonism Shamanism all this sort of thing where that you encounter still in

thing where that you encounter still in many parts of the world um that sort of

many parts of the world um that sort of thing was banished exiled defeated and

thing was banished exiled defeated and overcome precisely by the Christian

overcome precisely by the Christian faith um if you're encountering witch

faith um if you're encountering witch doctors and people who are living in

doctors and people who are living in bondage to that kind of thing whether

bondage to that kind of thing whether it's um uh made up as you believe or U

it's um uh made up as you believe or U genuine as I believe or what is more

genuine as I believe or what is more likely a mixture of both I believe that

likely a mixture of both I believe that there's a great deal of superstition

there's a great deal of superstition mingled in with genuine um spiritual

mingled in with genuine um spiritual problems if you believe if you believe

problems if you believe if you believe that then you say look well let's look

that then you say look well let's look at the scoreboard let's look at what has

at the scoreboard let's look at what has happened where Christian faith has gone

happened where Christian faith has gone uh we have been instrumental as

uh we have been instrumental as Christians in lifting the clouds of

Christians in lifting the clouds of superstition uh what you glory in the

superstition uh what you glory in the enlightenment I don't think was possible

enlightenment I don't think was possible in witchcraft riddled societies I think

in witchcraft riddled societies I think it was dependent on the Christian

it was dependent on the Christian faith okay it's my turn to ask a

faith okay it's my turn to ask a question isn't it I think yes I'm going

question isn't it I think yes I'm going to stay on this point too by way of

to stay on this point too by way of preface um Senator John McCain is just

preface um Senator John McCain is just nominated as his running mate a woman

nominated as his running mate a woman who attends a church in which spiritual

who attends a church in which spiritual warfare and anti-demon tactics are

warfare and anti-demon tactics are regularly discussed has been filmed

regularly discussed has been filmed having hands laid on her by what I would

having hands laid on her by what I would describe as an animist Bishop from from

describe as an animist Bishop from from Kenya she may describe as a Christian

Kenya she may describe as a Christian who who talks about the witches he's

who who talks about the witches he's expelled from his own area of the

expelled from his own area of the highlands of Kenya so how can you say

highlands of Kenya so how can you say that Christianity has rid us of the the

that Christianity has rid us of the the nonsensical idea of Witchcraft demonism

nonsensical idea of Witchcraft demonism and exorcism to the contrary it's the

and exorcism to the contrary it's the reason why these nonsens iCal barbaric

reason why these nonsens iCal barbaric primitive ideas survive now I I hope I

primitive ideas survive now I I hope I don't take advantage of you if I tell

don't take advantage of you if I tell the audience with your permission oh

the audience with your permission oh sure of of a question I asked you

sure of of a question I asked you yesterday and the answer you gave me I

yesterday and the answer you gave me I asked Alis Wilson this suppose that a

asked Alis Wilson this suppose that a soul I'll call it a soul for his sake a

soul I'll call it a soul for his sake a person is born in Saudi Arabia today

person is born in Saudi Arabia today into the wahhabi Theocratic society

into the wahhabi Theocratic society would you rather that person became an

would you rather that person became an atheist or join the majority religion of

atheist or join the majority religion of that

that state you want to tell them your R well

state you want to tell them your R well i' I'd prefer you become an atheist yeah

i' I'd prefer you become an atheist yeah I and I thought it was a very honorable

I and I thought it was a very honorable reply on your part and I want to pressed

reply on your part and I want to pressed it a little bit

it a little bit um do you believe that Thomas aquinus

um do you believe that Thomas aquinus called a saint by the Roman Catholic

called a saint by the Roman Catholic church levitated and flew all around the

church levitated and flew all around the Nave of notra Dame cathedral in Paris

Nave of notra Dame cathedral in Paris I'm afraid you lost me I'm a good

I'm afraid you lost me I'm a good Protestant right yeah I don't believe it

Protestant right yeah I don't believe it either you don't think that's true

do you think uh do you do you think that Muhammad took a night Journey on a horse

Muhammad took a night Journey on a horse from the Arabian Peninsula to the D of

from the Arabian Peninsula to the D of the Rock in Jerusalem and the horse left

the Rock in Jerusalem and the horse left a hoofprint before rocketing him up to

a hoofprint before rocketing him up to Paradise I you know I'm not with that I

Paradise I you know I'm not with that I don't think so either so here's my

don't think so either so here's my question why how can you manage to say

question why how can you manage to say that Miracles are only true when they're

calvinist because it's always seemed to me as a secularist never mind an atheist

me as a secularist never mind an atheist that either all religions uh

that either all religions uh Supernatural claims must be true or none

Supernatural claims must be true or none of them are my own position or only one

of them are my own position or only one of them is the least probable position

of them is the least probable position of all right the one you've decided to

of all right the one you've decided to occupy why is it that the miracle claims

occupy why is it that the miracle claims are okay made by Calvinists and not by

are okay made by Calvinists and not by Muslims other kinds of Christian no or

Muslims other kinds of Christian no or Jews notice the structure of your

Jews notice the structure of your argument the structure of your argument

argument the structure of your argument is that L you think it's called a

is that L you think it's called a structure well it does and here it is um

structure well it does and here it is um the the structure of your argument is

the the structure of your argument is that you're reasoning from the existence

that you're reasoning from the existence of counterfeits to a denial of the

of counterfeits to a denial of the genuine article I I believe uh that

genuine article I I believe uh that there are plenty of spurious Federal

there are plenty of spurious Federal Reserve notes uh printed up by

Reserve notes uh printed up by counterfitters in their basement and I

counterfitters in their basement and I believe that this assertion that uh this

believe that this assertion that uh this bogus Thomas aquinus $20 bill and bogus

bogus Thomas aquinus $20 bill and bogus Islamic flying horse $20 bill does not

Islamic flying horse $20 bill does not obligate me in the slightest to deny the

obligate me in the slightest to deny the existence of genuine currency I I don't

existence of genuine currency I I don't see how you can argue from the existence

see how you can argue from the existence of counterfeits and fakes and knockoffs

of counterfeits and fakes and knockoffs to a denial of the genuine but I wasn't

to a denial of the genuine but I wasn't doing so you were asking no I was asking

doing so you were asking no I was asking how how on what you found your assertion

how how on what you found your assertion that yours yours is the only true bill

that yours yours is the only true bill the ones the ones I believe in the ones

the ones the ones I believe in the ones I believe in are the ones I believe

I believe in are the ones I believe in yes for example I've spent I've spent

in yes for example I've spent I've spent a lot of time on a small point that I

a lot of time on a small point that I think is a big one um You probably or

think is a big one um You probably or some of you will know of the existence

some of you will know of the existence of a of a text called the pro calls of

of a of a text called the pro calls of the Learned Elders of Zion it's been it

the Learned Elders of Zion it's been it was originally fabricated by Christian

was originally fabricated by Christian Russian Orthodox fascists in the pay of

Russian Orthodox fascists in the pay of the zah to uh try and condemn the Jewish

the zah to uh try and condemn the Jewish people for a blood liel and a secret

people for a blood liel and a secret government based on conspiracy and it's

government based on conspiracy and it's now the chief paranoid document on the

now the chief paranoid document on the website of Hamas and Islamic Jihad and

website of Hamas and Islamic Jihad and it's had a huge circulation in Christian

it's had a huge circulation in Christian and Muslim religious circles for a very

and Muslim religious circles for a very long time it's usually described as a

long time it's usually described as a forgery uh that if you've ever read

forgery uh that if you've ever read about it you'll have heard of it as a

about it you'll have heard of it as a forgery and I it's it may seem to you a

forgery and I it's it may seem to you a panic point but I don't think it is

panic point but I don't think it is whenever I write about it I say don't

whenever I write about it I say don't call it a forgery why not forgery is a

call it a forgery why not forgery is a copy of a true

copy of a true document Protocols of the ERS of Zion is

document Protocols of the ERS of Zion is not a copy of a true document right it

not a copy of a true document right it is a fabrication it's a whole cloth hoax

is a fabrication it's a whole cloth hoax uh it's it's a it's a criminal slander

uh it's it's a it's a criminal slander uh invented out of whole cloth there's

uh invented out of whole cloth there's nothing forged about it at all there's

nothing forged about it at all there's no true bill to begin with now do you

no true bill to begin with now do you see the distinction yes well well why

see the distinction yes well well why are your Miracles the true bill and the

are your Miracles the true bill and the others are all copies of it because they

others are all copies of it because they happened Jesus really did Jesus really

happened Jesus really did Jesus really did rise from the dead which I believe

did rise from the dead which I believe the on the same basis aquinus believed

the on the same basis aquinus believed that sure mamed Muhammad believes the

that sure mamed Muhammad believes the fact that aquinus didn't fly around

fact that aquinus didn't fly around Notre Dame does not mean that he got

Notre Dame does not mean that he got everything wrong no right so um I

everything wrong no right so um I believe that I've I was not there at the

believe that I've I was not there at the Battle of waterl didn't see it happen I

Battle of waterl didn't see it happen I accept it on the basis of eyewitness

accept it on the basis of eyewitness account and authorities uh eyewitness uh

account and authorities uh eyewitness uh accounts that I deem to be reliable I do

accounts that I deem to be reliable I do the same thing with George Washington

the same thing with George Washington Crossing the the Delaware I do the same

Crossing the the Delaware I do the same thing with the resurrection of Jesus

thing with the resurrection of Jesus from the dead now I believe that you

from the dead now I believe that you could generate a whole host of

could generate a whole host of protestant Evangelical Protestant

protestant Evangelical Protestant Miracles that I don't believe in either

Miracles that I don't believe in either I believe that we ought to study it love

I believe that we ought to study it love the Lord Our God with all our heart soul

the Lord Our God with all our heart soul mind and strength love the Lord Our God

mind and strength love the Lord Our God with all our brains we should look at

with all our brains we should look at the evidence and make a determination we

the evidence and make a determination we shouldn't just say oh it's a miracle

shouldn't just say oh it's a miracle it's good uh and it serves the cause of

it's good uh and it serves the cause of the Gospel or or it helps um keep people

the Gospel or or it helps um keep people in line or helps Inspire them if it's if

in line or helps Inspire them if it's if it's not true if it didn't happen we

it's not true if it didn't happen we should have nothing to do with it and

should have nothing to do with it and and I've been in Christian circles for

and I've been in Christian circles for many years and I've heard all kinds of

many years and I've heard all kinds of Miracle stories that I don't believe

Miracle stories that I don't believe I've heard probably more Miracle stories

I've heard probably more Miracle stories that I don't believe than Miracle

that I don't believe than Miracle stories I do believe but as a Christian

stories I do believe but as a Christian I don't believe that I can go into the

I don't believe that I can go into the Bible and pick and choose if Jesus did

Bible and pick and choose if Jesus did not rise from the dead then we of all

not rise from the dead then we of all men are most to be pied and so it it

men are most to be pied and so it it doesn't matter how socially good it is

doesn't matter how socially good it is or bad from your count of from your

or bad from your count of from your point of view what matters is the

point of view what matters is the truth and so when I believe when I say I

truth and so when I believe when I say I believe this miracle occurred um it has

believe this miracle occurred um it has nothing to do with I I don't accept

nothing to do with I I don't accept hume's um argument as an absolute you

hume's um argument as an absolute you know that you can just rule Miracles out

know that you can just rule Miracles out I believe on on uh on the basis of well

I believe on on uh on the basis of well attested Miracles with eyewitnesses you

attested Miracles with eyewitnesses you believe that's that's the most rational

believe that's that's the most rational thing you can do I was about to stop and

thing you can do I was about to stop and say no further questions but it's not

say no further questions but it's not fair to the great Scotsman uh to say

fair to the great Scotsman uh to say that Hume said all miracles could be

that Hume said all miracles could be ruled out he simply said you have to ask

ruled out he simply said you have to ask yourself if you appear to see the laws

yourself if you appear to see the laws of nature being suspended in front of

of nature being suspended in front of your eyes which is more likely that

your eyes which is more likely that they've been suspended in your favor or

they've been suspended in your favor or that you are under a

that you are under a misapprehension right and one you're not

misapprehension right and one you're not to appoint your you're not allowed to

to appoint your you're not allowed to appoint your own senses your own

appoint your own senses your own impressions as the Arbiter of the

impressions as the Arbiter of the natural order and uh that might lead in

natural order and uh that might lead in the end to a dismissal but it isn't an a

the end to a dismissal but it isn't an a priori one sure and and I believe that

priori one sure and and I believe that Joseph when he found out that Mary his

Joseph when he found out that Mary his betro was pregnant he followed David

betro was pregnant he followed David hume's advice to the letter he didn't he

hume's advice to the letter he didn't he he didn't knew what the most reasonable

he didn't knew what the most reasonable explanation was and um that sort of that

explanation was and um that sort of that sort of thing um it's not that in in the

sort of thing um it's not that in in the ancient world

ancient world uh in the ancient world it's not that

uh in the ancient world it's not that people didn't know where babies came

people didn't know where babies came from it's not that they didn't know that

from it's not that they didn't know that you couldn't walk on water it's not that

you couldn't walk on water it's not that you they didn't know that you couldn't

you they didn't know that you couldn't change water to wine they knew that as

change water to wine they knew that as as well as we do no all Joseph knew was

as well as we do no all Joseph knew was who hadn't made her pregnant right if we

who hadn't made her pregnant right if we have to be uh crude about this correct

have to be uh crude about this correct and if you were David hum you would ask

and if you were David hum you would ask which is more likely that the fact that

which is more likely that the fact that he hasn't made her pregnant and she is

he hasn't made her pregnant and she is is the result of divine intervention or

is the result of divine intervention or that a Jewish girl could tell a fib sure

that a Jewish girl could tell a fib sure and Jose now of the two I don't think

and Jose now of the two I don't think the latter is overwhelmingly improbable

the latter is overwhelmingly improbable sure and Joseph was right there no

sure and Joseph was right there no religion no religion has ever been

religion no religion has ever been founded except with the claim that its

founded except with the claim that its founder and Prophet was born of a

founder and Prophet was born of a virgin I have the whole list in the

virgin I have the whole list in the front of my book if anyone by the way

front of my book if anyone by the way available at fine bookstores

available at fine bookstores everywhere um I have in the first few

everywhere um I have in the first few pages of my book L there there is no

pages of my book L there there is no religion from Aztec to Hindu uh

religion from Aztec to Hindu uh including Buddhism where the the G arm

including Buddhism where the the G arm is born through a slit in his mother's

is born through a slit in his mother's side where where it doesn't begin with a

side where where it doesn't begin with a with a with a miraculous birth and

with a with a miraculous birth and there's no counterfeit money you could

there's no counterfeit money you could be in the religion Business Without

be in the religion Business Without claiming that especially in the greater

claiming that especially in the greater Jerusalem area at that that time and you

Jerusalem area at that that time and you couldn't be in the counter and you

couldn't be in the counter and you couldn't be in the counterfeiting

couldn't be in the counterfeiting Business Without green paper and numbers

Business Without green paper and numbers in the corner the Quran the Quran

in the corner the Quran the Quran absolutely attests it the Quran attests

absolutely attests it the Quran attests The Virginity and motherhood of Mary

The Virginity and motherhood of Mary sure it's in the Quran what could be

sure it's in the Quran what could be wrong with that no nobody counterfeits

wrong with that no nobody counterfeits Brown sayfe way shopping

Brown sayfe way shopping bags they're not worthwhile it's not

bags they're not worthwhile it's not worth it to counterfeit them if

worth it to counterfeit them if something's worthwhile there you all

something's worthwhile there you all right if you've got a genuine article

right if you've got a genuine article then you've got okay now pretty soon

then you've got okay now pretty soon we're going to have to yeah see if we've

we're going to have to yeah see if we've exhausted the tolerance of our brothers

exhausted the tolerance of our brothers and sisters but you know what you you

and sisters but you know what you you remind me of something Douglas and I had

remind me of something Douglas and I had lunch yesterday with Marvin oaski

lunch yesterday with Marvin oaski probably some of you know him he's now

probably some of you know him he's now the president of the Kings College in um

the president of the Kings College in um in New York and was once the famed as

in New York and was once the famed as the head of President Bush's faith-based

the head of President Bush's faith-based initiative um Dr alasi and I have

initiative um Dr alasi and I have something in common we both used to be

something in common we both used to be members of marxist organizations and we

members of marxist organizations and we were chatting a bit about you our old

were chatting a bit about you our old allegiances now I remember if Stone

allegiances now I remember if Stone saying about musolini calling himself a

saying about musolini calling himself a socialist and Hitler calling himself a

socialist and Hitler calling himself a national socialist he said that's a

national socialist he said that's a compliment of a

compliment of a Kind said said my old comrade red

Kind said said my old comrade red comrade as he said nobody bothers to

comrade as he said nobody bothers to counterfeit bad currency well it turns

counterfeit bad currency well it turns out that they

out that they do but not current it turns out that

do but not current it turns out that things the ironies of history and the

things the ironies of history and the and the cruelties that that reality

and the cruelties that that reality practice on us as a suffering species

practice on us as a suffering species Yes actually people will go go to Great

Yes actually people will go go to Great Lengths to say I'd like to deal in this

Lengths to say I'd like to deal in this bankrupt currency it can happen and it

bankrupt currency it can happen and it has as you've just shown yes people do

has as you've just shown yes people do well we don't have a chairman do we so

well we don't have a chairman do we so when do we know when to invite our

when do we know when to invite our guests to join us when do we know

um oh I would forgo mine for the sake of questioner if you would I'm I'm happy

questioner if you would I'm I'm happy to no one will think I've said to little

to no one will think I've said to little will

will they that I've dodged the responsibility

they that I've dodged the responsibility you can tell you can tell who's in

you can tell you can tell who's in charge

charge here and it's not me

here and it's not me I we are happy to have questions now Mr

I we are happy to have questions now Mr Hitchens would like this aisle named for

Hitchens would like this aisle named for him I just wanted to mention there

him I just wanted to mention there there's a way to do that it will cost

you the uh the endowment trap this will be the endowment trap

trap this will be the endowment trap this will be the Hitchens aisle for

this will be the Hitchens aisle for questions this will be the Wilson aisle

questions this will be the Wilson aisle for questions please move to the

for questions please move to the microphones if you'd like and uh we'll

microphones if you'd like and uh we'll begin to entertain questions after which

begin to entertain questions after which time if you have a book we'll line up

time if you have a book we'll line up over here for you can sign that or

over here for you can sign that or there'll be um for sale out in the lobby

there'll be um for sale out in the lobby you might have time to come up not just

you might have time to come up not just a book a receip please receipt right

a book a receip please receipt right thank you they say a book stolen is a

thank you they say a book stolen is a book sold but I'm not having

book sold but I'm not having [Laughter]

[Laughter] it yes on the Hitchens aisle so I have

it yes on the Hitchens aisle so I have uh two quick questions if that's all

uh two quick questions if that's all right uh one in a followup um you

right uh one in a followup um you mentioned that uh the idea of a

mentioned that uh the idea of a conception of God who drives demons from

conception of God who drives demons from pigs makes him vulgar and you said that

pigs makes him vulgar and you said that that seems to blasphemy God one way or

that seems to blasphemy God one way or another does that mean that you have an

another does that mean that you have an implicit understanding of uh theology in

implicit understanding of uh theology in that if God were to exist he ought not

that if God were to exist he ought not to look like this no I wasn't being out

to look like this no I wasn't being out I'm I I may have spoken too swiftly but

I'm I I may have spoken too swiftly but what I said was not that it made

what I said was not that it made God a blaspheme person but that such an

God a blaspheme person but that such an action uh getting

action uh getting infected uh people to transfer their

infected uh people to transfer their demons to infect pigs to commit suicide

demons to infect pigs to commit suicide was neither true in my judgment or

was neither true in my judgment or Beautiful by any standard and so

Beautiful by any standard and so blasphemed against both the

blasphemed against both the uh the standards if you wish the um the

uh the standards if you wish the um the aesthetic qualities that we were

aesthetic qualities that we were discussing this evening nor that it

discussing this evening nor that it blasphemed against God it was it

blasphemed against God it was it blasphemed against truth and Beauty both

blasphemed against truth and Beauty both all right one more sorry if I didn't put

all right one more sorry if I didn't put that um plainly enough no by all means

that um plainly enough no by all means quick quick followup okay quick followup

quick quick followup okay quick followup how do you you mentioned probability

how do you you mentioned probability between a miracle and a natural event

between a miracle and a natural event how do you go about assigning

how do you go about assigning probability to a miracle by that means

probability to a miracle by that means that uh

that uh especially if it's reported to me by

especially if it's reported to me by someone who is bringing it to me second

someone who is bringing it to me second or third hand I think I have a duty to

or third hand I think I have a duty to doubt that the operations of nature were

doubt that the operations of nature were suspended say that an as that an

suspended say that an as that an astrological child finder called into

astrological child finder called into MSNBC to say that she knew where the

MSNBC to say that she knew where the kidnapped kid was being held this if I

kidnapped kid was being held this if I don't uh if I don't think the all my

don't uh if I don't think the all my antenna told me that that's not true

antenna told me that that's not true that she would have no means of of doing

that she would have no means of of doing that it's much much more likely and I

that it's much much more likely and I that's by the way this is the first time

that's by the way this is the first time I introduce even the idea of

I introduce even the idea of fraud even the possibility that someone

fraud even the possibility that someone would self-interestedly perform or claim

would self-interestedly perform or claim to perform miracle I didn't do that

to perform miracle I didn't do that before said it is claimed that the laws

before said it is claimed that the laws of nature were suspended that the sun

of nature were suspended that the sun stopped at midday to give Joshua time to

stopped at midday to give Joshua time to finish his battle I don't think that

finish his battle I don't think that that

that happened okay

happened okay the likelihood that it happened as

the likelihood that it happened as opposed to the likelihood that people

opposed to the likelihood that people were under the misapprehension under a

were under the misapprehension under a hot sun that it had happened is

hot sun that it had happened is overwhelmingly in my favor as a skeptic

overwhelmingly in my favor as a skeptic and I I don't think I could improve in

and I I don't think I could improve in that sense of what hum said Douglas

that sense of what hum said Douglas thinks that the sun did

thinks that the sun did stop in the sky so that the the

stop in the sky so that the the Revolutions of the the planetary

Revolutions of the the planetary motions the things that hold the

motions the things that hold the universe in place that keep the water on

universe in place that keep the water on the planet that keep the moon moving

the planet that keep the moon moving around that was all stopped for Joshua's

around that was all stopped for Joshua's sake I ask you which is more likely

sake I ask you which is more likely thank you yes over here Mr Wilson I'd

thank you yes over here Mr Wilson I'd like to extend um Mr hitch's line of

like to extend um Mr hitch's line of questioning to you uh Mr Wilson and to

questioning to you uh Mr Wilson and to ask you as he was um he he was asking

ask you as he was um he he was asking you how you know um that the Miracles of

you how you know um that the Miracles of Christianity are true and other Miracles

Christianity are true and other Miracles are not and I was wondering if you would

are not and I was wondering if you would please elaborate on what you were saying

please elaborate on what you were saying you said that you believe they were true

you said that you believe they were true because you believed them to be true you

because you believed them to be true you said you believed that they were true

said you believed that they were true because you believed that they happened

because you believed that they happened but I was wondering if you could give

but I was wondering if you could give more of your epistemology more of your

more of your epistemology more of your um reasons for Discerning what is true

um reasons for Discerning what is true and what is not

and what is not I'm sorry if I created the wrong

I'm sorry if I created the wrong impression there I was not urging

impression there I was not urging fideism I that they were true because I

fideism I that they were true because I believed them to be true or that I was

believed them to be true or that I was just going to take a blind leap and

just going to take a blind leap and affirm the the truth of them basically

affirm the the truth of them basically my epistemology of Miracles if you want

my epistemology of Miracles if you want to put it that way goes um to the

to put it that way goes um to the resurrection of Christ as the

resurrection of Christ as the Cornerstone um because I believe that

Cornerstone um because I believe that Jesus came back from the dead as the

Jesus came back from the dead as the scriptures for foretold that he would

scriptures for foretold that he would after three days in the grave three days

after three days in the grave three days in the grave and rose again from the

in the grave and rose again from the from the dead because that was an event

from the dead because that was an event that was predicted by the scriptures but

that was predicted by the scriptures but which the disciples did not anticipate

which the disciples did not anticipate um and FL it flx them and Jesus

um and FL it flx them and Jesus um Jesus told them overtly what was

um Jesus told them overtly what was going to happen in the narits but they

going to happen in the narits but they didn't expect it didn't believe it

didn't expect it didn't believe it didn't um they weren't out at the grave

didn't um they weren't out at the grave site 3 Days Later waiting expectantly

site 3 Days Later waiting expectantly checking their watches um they they had

checking their watches um they they had to be talked into it some of them it

to be talked into it some of them it took more time with Thomas um with

took more time with Thomas um with others it was they wouldn't accept the

others it was they wouldn't accept the word of those close to them um they were

word of those close to them um they were persuaded over time of this and I'm

persuaded over time of this and I'm convinced that the transformation in the

convinced that the transformation in the disciples from um the sheep that were

disciples from um the sheep that were scattered when the shepherd was struck

scattered when the shepherd was struck to from Peter who denied the Lord rep

to from Peter who denied the Lord rep reply uh to that same Peter a few weeks

reply uh to that same Peter a few weeks later uh courageously preaching the

later uh courageously preaching the gospel um on the day of Pentecost I

gospel um on the day of Pentecost I believe that that transformation and the

believe that that transformation and the W the consistent witness that the

W the consistent witness that the apostles and the early Christians gave

apostles and the early Christians gave of Christ coming back from the dead is

of Christ coming back from the dead is the central Miracle that's the that's

the central Miracle that's the that's the thing that I think is the

the thing that I think is the Cornerstone now if I accept that and I I

Cornerstone now if I accept that and I I don't believe I can be a Christian uh

don't believe I can be a Christian uh with an or othodox Christian without

with an or othodox Christian without accepting that if I accept that I don't

accepting that if I accept that I don't understand scrup at the other things

understand scrup at the other things that these same people uh tell me that

that these same people uh tell me that uh Jesus did as anticipatory Miracles

uh Jesus did as anticipatory Miracles and so forth I do believe and this is

and so forth I do believe and this is where Christopher and I agree I do

where Christopher and I agree I do believe that Jesus ought not to be

believe that Jesus ought not to be understood as a petty wonder worker um

understood as a petty wonder worker um snake Handler type of guy going through

snake Handler type of guy going through small villages wowing wowing everybody I

small villages wowing wowing everybody I believe that Jesus said a wicked and a

believe that Jesus said a wicked and a adulterous generation seeks after a sign

adulterous generation seeks after a sign I believe that Orthodox Christianity

I believe that Orthodox Christianity invites skepticism about miracles I

invites skepticism about miracles I believe that that's actually a healthy

believe that that's actually a healthy skepticism and I believe that um even

skepticism and I believe that um even Christopher's version skeptical version

Christopher's version skeptical version is a dose of that I think big quadrants

is a dose of that I think big quadrants of the Christian Church could profit

of the Christian Church could profit from um instead of just telling stories

from um instead of just telling stories to gullible fellow Believers but once

to gullible fellow Believers but once you accept the res the miracle of the

you accept the res the miracle of the Resurrection I believe that all the

Resurrection I believe that all the other biblical Miracles follow and fall

other biblical Miracles follow and fall into place that's my basic epistemology

into place that's my basic epistemology of um Miracles it's evident to me from

of um Miracles it's evident to me from the historical documents that the

the historical documents that the disciples and apostles really believed

disciples and apostles really believed and lived like they believed that Jesus

and lived like they believed that Jesus actually came back from the

actually came back from the dead thank you I think I do you mind if

dead thank you I think I do you mind if I I don't feel like I just let that

I I don't feel like I just let that totally go there are two things one one

totally go there are two things one one on Miracles themselves but then the

on Miracles themselves but then the resurrection um it it was argued by some

resurrection um it it was argued by some of the ear Church fathers marsan I think

of the ear Church fathers marsan I think was the best known that Christianity

was the best known that Christianity should begin again that it should be the

should begin again that it should be the it should be a religion of the teachings

it should be a religion of the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth and it it shouldn't

of Jesus of Nazareth and it it shouldn't be the Fulfillment of the Prophecies of

be the Fulfillment of the Prophecies of the Old Testament it shouldn't take on

the Old Testament it shouldn't take on the appalling burden of of all the Mad

the appalling burden of of all the Mad uh genocidal Stone aged Jewish books

uh genocidal Stone aged Jewish books that preceded it it could begin again

that preceded it it could begin again unfortunately Maran lost this argument

unfortunately Maran lost this argument so Christianity takes on this appalling

so Christianity takes on this appalling burden uh with which it settled itself

burden uh with which it settled itself forever which is the reason why it will

forever which is the reason why it will never become a universal or Redemptive

never become a universal or Redemptive religion among many other reasons

religion among many other reasons however if you want to think about

however if you want to think about miracles it's very simple um Moses and

miracles it's very simple um Moses and Aaron have a have a a contest with The

Aaron have a have a a contest with The Magicians and conjurers and miracle

Magicians and conjurers and miracle workers of the Pharaoh another man who

workers of the Pharaoh another man who believes that he can survive

believes that he can survive death and his magicians and conjurers

death and his magicians and conjurers and miracle workers produce many many

and miracle workers produce many many many

many miracles uh it is said that Aon does

miracles uh it is said that Aon does them and that with the eron's rod in the

them and that with the eron's rod in the end they're beaten they they lose but it

end they're beaten they they lose but it it it makes a very simple point the

it it makes a very simple point the ability to produce a miracle says

ability to produce a miracle says absolutely nothing about the truth of a

absolutely nothing about the truth of a religion and that is biblically attested

religion and that is biblically attested is biblically attested that people whose

is biblically attested that people whose religion is false can produce miracles

religion is false can produce miracles do I need to say it another way bear it

do I need to say it another way bear it in mind as to the resurrection I'll only

in mind as to the resurrection I'll only add this as an amateur on these qu on

add this as an amateur on these qu on these

these matters there are a huge number of

matters there are a huge number of Resurrection mentioned in the New

Resurrection mentioned in the New Testament just in the life of Jesus of

Testament just in the life of Jesus of Nazareth as the raising of Lazarus and

Nazareth as the raising of Lazarus and of the daughter of gyus neither of whom

of the daughter of gyus neither of whom ever say a word nothing is ever said

ever say a word nothing is ever said about what was it like what did they say

about what was it like what did they say how was it how was it to be dead

how was it how was it to be dead questions that you think even the most

questions that you think even the most incurious villager would want to ask

incurious villager would want to ask them they're just raised from the dead

them they're just raised from the dead and we move on there's nothing said

and we move on there's nothing said about

about it I think rather astonishing but making

it I think rather astonishing but making it seem as if Resurrection is a relative

it seem as if Resurrection is a relative common place in this area then in the

common place in this area then in the gospel of I'm pretty sure it's Matthew

gospel of I'm pretty sure it's Matthew and I know I'll be corrected if I'm

and I know I'll be corrected if I'm wrong at the time of the

wrong at the time of the crucifixion I almost can quote the verse

crucifixion I almost can quote the verse directly the graves of of Jerusalem

directly the graves of of Jerusalem opened as the heavens darkened and as

opened as the heavens darkened and as the veil was torn and those who were

the veil was torn and those who were lying in those Graves left them and

lying in those Graves left them and walked around the markets and streets of

walked around the markets and streets of Jerusalem and were greeted by many who

Jerusalem and were greeted by many who they knew what's wrong with this story

they knew what's wrong with this story it means Resurrection is a relative

it means Resurrection is a relative Common

Common Place uh it means there isn't anything

Place uh it means there isn't anything specifically wonderful about it I mean

specifically wonderful about it I mean the sort of thing you might expect any

the sort of thing you might expect any time to meet a former dead friend or

time to meet a former dead friend or relative of yours wandering the streets

relative of yours wandering the streets in their seant and Grave CLS final point

in their seant and Grave CLS final point is this if someone is born of a virgin

is this if someone is born of a virgin it doesn't prove to me that anything

it doesn't prove to me that anything they say is

they say is true someone may say in the middle of an

true someone may say in the middle of an argument with me you lose I say why is

argument with me you lose I say why is that because my mother never went to bed

that because my mother never went to bed with any man I said wait a minute you

with any man I said wait a minute you haven't proved your argument is better

haven't proved your argument is better at all by saying that doesn't prove

at all by saying that doesn't prove you're a better person doesn't prove

you're a better person doesn't prove that God is your father doesn't prove

that God is your father doesn't prove anything I may grant that your mother

anything I may grant that your mother was a virgin path Genesis is actually a

was a virgin path Genesis is actually a remote possibility but you would prove

remote possibility but you would prove Nothing by proving it of yourself and if

Nothing by proving it of yourself and if you say that um you win the argument

you say that um you win the argument because you were once dead and now

because you were once dead and now you're alive I will look at you slightly

you're alive I will look at you slightly narrowly if I was on the bus with you

narrowly if I was on the bus with you it's odd isn't it if you were on the bus

it's odd isn't it if you were on the bus next to someone who said you know I used

next to someone who said you know I used to be a dead person but I'm alive

to be a dead person but I'm alive now you would move towards them or away

now you would move towards them or away everybody knows what they would

everybody knows what they would do or if they said they were hearing

do or if they said they were hearing voices from God telling them what to do

voices from God telling them what to do I think the reaction is the same taxi

I think the reaction is the same taxi anyway if suppose that I thought all

anyway if suppose that I thought all right I'll give you the benefit of the

right I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here you used to be dead now

doubt here you used to be dead now you're alive your arguments are still no

you're alive your arguments are still no good you still can't get a syllogism

good you still can't get a syllogism right you still don't know about formal

right you still don't know about formal logic you still have no command of the

logic you still have no command of the laws of evidence so all your work is

laws of evidence so all your work is still ahead of you even if you you think

still ahead of you even if you you think these nonsensical fairy tales do have

these nonsensical fairy tales do have any basis in fact so I grant the whole

any basis in fact so I grant the whole thing and it makes no difference to me

thing and it makes no difference to me wouldn't make me a Christian if it was

wouldn't make me a Christian if it was all true The Stranger On The Bus it

all true The Stranger On The Bus it shouldn't make you one either unless you

shouldn't make you one either unless you are a completely credulous person The

are a completely credulous person The Stranger On The Bus is a Stranger On The

Stranger On The Bus is a Stranger On The Bus however if you traveled around with

Bus however if you traveled around with a guy for three years he told you he's

a guy for three years he told you he's going to come back from the dead and he

going to come back from the dead and he did I I hope you would look at him more

did I I hope you would look at him more than just squinty-eyed you know golly

than just squinty-eyed you know golly come there's no there's no there was no

come there's no there's no there was no witness to that the other thing is there

witness to that the other thing is there are no eyewitnesses there never were

are no eyewitnesses there never were none of them could read none of them

none of them could read none of them could write none of them could read the

could write none of them could read the Old Testament none of them could read

Old Testament none of them could read the New Testament because it hadn't been

written yeah there too many EG too many eggs in the pudding no the French the

eggs in the pudding no the French the French say he lies like an eyewitness

French say he lies like an eyewitness it's a it's a term of French jurist

it's a it's a term of French jurist Prudence here here's the problem your

Prudence here here's the problem your your the whole thing point you made

your the whole thing point you made about Resurrection was uh the same sort

about Resurrection was uh the same sort of thing as forgery forgery and

of thing as forgery forgery and Fabrication um last Lazarus was a

Fabrication um last Lazarus was a resuscitation Lazarus died again Jesus

resuscitation Lazarus died again Jesus was raised from the dead never to die

was raised from the dead never to die again the resuscitations that Jesus

again the resuscitations that Jesus accomplished and that Peter did and and

accomplished and that Peter did and and happened in the Old Testament

happened in the Old Testament resuscitations occurred yes but Jesus

resuscitations occurred yes but Jesus was the first person in history to come

was the first person in history to come back from the dead never to die again

back from the dead never to die again and say he would reappear in the

and say he would reappear in the lifetime of his disciples no yes now he

lifetime of his disciples no yes now he said he was going to come back and

said he was going to come back and Destroy Jerusalem which he did in 70 AD

Destroy Jerusalem which he did in 70 AD right on the

right on the money it was the Roman Empire didn't do

money it was the Roman Empire didn't do this no the he said this gen this

this no the he said this gen this generation will not pass away till all

generation will not pass away till all these things are fulfilled the Sun the

these things are fulfilled the Sun the the moon hang on a second this is really

the moon hang on a second this is really important actually I know it is yeah

important actually I know it is yeah yeah in when Jesus when Jesus says in

yeah in when Jesus when Jesus says in Matthew 24 the moon the sun's going to

Matthew 24 the moon the sun's going to go out and the stars fall from the

go out and the stars fall from the heavens he's quoting from Isaiah 13 and

heavens he's quoting from Isaiah 13 and Isaiah 34 um there's decreation language

Isaiah 34 um there's decreation language throughout the Old Testament every time

throughout the Old Testament every time it occurs in the Old Testament it always

it occurs in the Old Testament it always refers to a milit destruction of a

refers to a milit destruction of a Nation or a city state always in Isaiah

Nation or a city state always in Isaiah 13 an oracle against the king of Babylon

13 an oracle against the king of Babylon and then you have the same decreation

and then you have the same decreation language then Jesus says in Matthew 24

language then Jesus says in Matthew 24 not one Stone's going to be left on

not one Stone's going to be left on another the disciples say when it's

another the disciples say when it's going to happen Jesus quotes Isaiah so

going to happen Jesus quotes Isaiah so Jesus is not talking about the end of

Jesus is not talking about the end of the space-time Universe he simply isn't

the space-time Universe he simply isn't has nothing whatever to do with that it

has nothing whatever to do with that it has to do with the destruction of

has to do with the destruction of Jerusalem which happened within one

Jerusalem which happened within one generation just as Jesus said

generation just as Jesus said authenticating him as a prophet you have

authenticating him as a prophet you have an abnormally unsuspicious mind if you

an abnormally unsuspicious mind if you if you see someone saying I'm saying

if you see someone saying I'm saying this so the prophecies can be fulfilled

this so the prophecies can be fulfilled he knows what the prophecies are and he

he knows what the prophecies are and he says the prophecies say if the Redeemer

says the prophecies say if the Redeemer comes to Jerusalem you come riding a

comes to Jerusalem you come riding a donkey where's my donkey let me straddle

donkey where's my donkey let me straddle the donkey and come in at its Passover

the donkey and come in at its Passover time and it says in the books themselves

time and it says in the books themselves it says and this was done so that the

it says and this was done so that the prophecies might be fulfilled so it's a

prophecies might be fulfilled so it's a self-conscious engineering of the of

self-conscious engineering of the of what would be laughable to predict I

what would be laughable to predict I I'll give you the donkey the donkey

I'll give you the donkey the donkey could have been arranged the the

could have been arranged the the U what I was talking about donies can

U what I was talking about donies can always be

always be arrang I was talking about AES can be

arrang I was talking about AES can be arranged I could I was talking about the

arranged I could I was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem which was not

destruction of Jerusalem which was not arranged that way so when Jesus

arranged that way so when Jesus predicted the destruction of Jerusalem

predicted the destruction of Jerusalem my central point is you interpreted him

my central point is you interpreted him as predicting the end of the SpaceTime

as predicting the end of the SpaceTime Continuum he wasn't talking about that

Continuum he wasn't talking about that at all he was predicting theend end of

at all he was predicting theend end of the judaic Aon the temple sacrifices and

the judaic Aon the temple sacrifices and Jerusalem and he did not arrange for the

Jerusalem and he did not arrange for the Romans to come in and do that he so sure

Romans to come in and do that he so sure didn't not but we have other

didn't not but we have other question think I found I think I found

question think I found I think I found the title for book two I'll give you the

the title for book two I'll give you the donkey what do you think yeah

donkey what do you think yeah bad gr grun grun the ass first of

bad gr grun grun the ass first of all okay first of all first of all I'd

all okay first of all first of all I'd just like to thank you for making your

just like to thank you for making your yourself available for questions oh

yourself available for questions oh please and uh my first question is if I

please and uh my first question is if I can ask you a question based primarily

can ask you a question based primarily on your uh yours and Mr Wilson's

on your uh yours and Mr Wilson's discussion in the book yes um my

discussion in the book yes um my question is based on the Golden Rule do

question is based on the Golden Rule do unto others as you would have them do

unto others as you would have them do unto you I I ask how do you explain uh

unto you I I ask how do you explain uh suicidal people who act under the golden

suicidal people who act under the golden rule we have several examples of this in

rule we have several examples of this in recent shootings by my fellow teenage

recent shootings by my fellow teenage Americans Robert Hawkins the 19-year-old

Americans Robert Hawkins the 19-year-old gunman in this last year's Ohama Mall

gunman in this last year's Ohama Mall shooting M shooting said in a

shooting M shooting said in a conversation with a friend before his

conversation with a friend before his attack that in pardon my language but I

attack that in pardon my language but I think it adds depth to this uh his life

think it adds depth to this uh his life was a piece of what's to keep him

was a piece of what's to keep him from treating others like their lives

from treating others like their lives are pieces of what is your basis

are pieces of what is your basis for what I ought to want done to

for what I ought to want done to me yes this to both um I this is to Mr

me yes this to both um I this is to Mr hitch thank you uh no he was in the

hitch thank you uh no he was in the Hitchens Memorial aisle after all I

Hitchens Memorial aisle after all I already knew you I already knew he was

already knew you I already knew he was mine after the money after the money I'm

mine after the money after the money I'm one of those who I'm willing to argue

one of those who I'm willing to argue about the Golden Rule till the cars come

about the Golden Rule till the cars come home for a reason I'll disclose in a

home for a reason I'll disclose in a moment but I'm also one who thinks it's

moment but I'm also one who thinks it's a greatly overrated Rule and you've

a greatly overrated Rule and you've actually helped me very much to explain

actually helped me very much to explain to the audience why that's so first off

to the audience why that's so first off is this when people say without

is this when people say without Christianity we'd have no morality we

Christianity we'd have no morality we wouldn't know what was right what was

wouldn't know what was right what was wrong I do point out that um the idea

wrong I do point out that um the idea that you should love your neighbor not

that you should love your neighbor not as yourself necessarily because that's

as yourself necessarily because that's rather strenuous in fact it's extreme

rather strenuous in fact it's extreme and it's impossible and rather Sinister

and it's impossible and rather Sinister but love them at least to the extent of

but love them at least to the extent of not doing anything to them you wouldn't

not doing anything to them you wouldn't want done to yourself is certainly in

want done to yourself is certainly in the analects of confucious as a thought

the analects of confucious as a thought a very long time before monotheism and

a very long time before monotheism and is undoubtedly in and is best known as

is undoubtedly in and is best known as the Golden Rule from Rabbi H the

the Golden Rule from Rabbi H the Babylonian Rabbi who when asked um could

Babylonian Rabbi who when asked um could he Express the whole of talmudic wisdom

he Express the whole of talmudic wisdom in one sentence while standing on one

in one sentence while standing on one foot said yes he could do not do to

foot said yes he could do not do to another what would be repulsive if done

another what would be repulsive if done to you all else is commentary now what's

to you all else is commentary now what's wrong with

wrong with it um some people need to be treated

it um some people need to be treated harshly obviously it's the same problem

harshly obviously it's the same problem that you have in the old and the New

that you have in the old and the New Testament in one in the Old Testament

Testament in one in the Old Testament says if an eye must be repayed with an

says if an eye must be repayed with an eye a tooth for a tooth you know how it

eye a tooth for a tooth you know how it goes it comes at the end of that crazy

goes it comes at the end of that crazy chapter about Ox scoring and the same

chapter about Ox scoring and the same chapter that says Thou shalt not suffer

chapter that says Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live it's one of the most

a witch to live it's one of the most appallingly ranting Lex talionis sedom

appallingly ranting Lex talionis sedom masochistic chapters of the whole new

masochistic chapters of the whole new testament but at least it says let

testament but at least it says let people be treated really cruy if they

people be treated really cruy if they have transgressed against you in the New

have transgressed against you in the New Testament it says something even more

Testament it says something even more nonsensical uh you can't unless you're

nonsensical uh you can't unless you're with yourself without sin be casting any

with yourself without sin be casting any stones on that basis we can't indict

stones on that basis we can't indict Charles Manson unless we are innocent

Charles Manson unless we are innocent ourselves this is moral chaos a lot of

ourselves this is moral chaos a lot of people need to be treated by me in ways

people need to be treated by me in ways I don't want to be treated myself

I don't want to be treated myself otherwise there's no basis for law

otherwise there's no basis for law there's no basis for justice so the

there's no basis for justice so the whole of biblical religious morality is

whole of biblical religious morality is based on a very unsound uh

based on a very unsound uh tautology and I guess that's the the

tautology and I guess that's the the whole of my answer and it shows that law

whole of my answer and it shows that law must be derived by us from human and

must be derived by us from human and social experience and from the and from

social experience and from the and from the knowledge that we will gain by the

the knowledge that we will gain by the study of the psychology and other things

study of the psychology and other things of the criminal type and cannot be

of the criminal type and cannot be sucked down by us from a Heavenly decree

sucked down by us from a Heavenly decree that's the only way you can't get law

that's the only way you can't get law it's the only way you can't get morals

it's the only way you can't get morals is by assuming that they will give be

is by assuming that they will give be given to you from on high this is why

given to you from on high this is why Christopher and I agree on the

Christopher and I agree on the Troublesome amalik question some people

Troublesome amalik question some people need to be treated

need to be treated harshly right thank you

harshly right thank you unless he's an

unless he's an Amica yes we'll we'll finish with

Amica yes we'll we'll finish with questions at 8:30 just so you can plan

questions at 8:30 just so you can plan your night okay in the Wilson aisle uh

your night okay in the Wilson aisle uh this question is applicable to both of

this question is applicable to both of you but I'm going to direct it to you

you but I'm going to direct it to you first Mr Wilson um it's pretty obvious

first Mr Wilson um it's pretty obvious from your discussion tonight that you

from your discussion tonight that you two don't agree um so you mentioned at

two don't agree um so you mentioned at the beginning uh Mr Wilson about common

the beginning uh Mr Wilson about common ground my question for you would would

ground my question for you would would be do you see Common Ground between the

be do you see Common Ground between the two of you or in other words what is it

two of you or in other words what is it that allows you to have a discussion

that allows you to have a discussion like this that allows you to both

like this that allows you to both articulate your positions because at

articulate your positions because at least from where I'm standing it looks

least from where I'm standing it looks like your positions are not reconcilable

like your positions are not reconcilable at all and that you know this type of

at all and that you know this type of dialogue would be impossible so if you

dialogue would be impossible so if you both could just comment on you know the

both could just comment on you know the nature of common ground and if that

nature of common ground and if that factors it all into your discussion that

factors it all into your discussion that would be great yes I can answer that

would be great yes I can answer that very quickly and very very directly I I

very quickly and very very directly I I don't believe the Common Ground between

don't believe the Common Ground between us has to do with our worldviews or what

us has to do with our worldviews or what we think I don't think we have common

we think I don't think we have common ground there period Christopher is an

ground there period Christopher is an atheist and I'm a I'm a Christian

atheist and I'm a I'm a Christian minister so we don't have common ground

minister so we don't have common ground there uh and when I tell you what I

there uh and when I tell you what I believe the common ground is and I

believe the common ground is and I believe it's substantive wide and deep

believe it's substantive wide and deep very profound Common Ground um our

very profound Common Ground um our disagreement will extend to that

disagreement will extend to that Christopher won't won't agree with me on

Christopher won't won't agree with me on that being the common ground but it is

that being the common ground but it is um he he's created in the image of God

um he he's created in the image of God as am I and as are you that's our common

as am I and as are you that's our common ground

ground you better hope that what you're looking

you better hope that what you're looking at here that's me isn't God's image

at here that's me isn't God's image looking back

looking back at you've every reason to hope that's

at you've every reason to hope that's not true yes there as for as for the

not true yes there as for as for the more he says there was a fall the more

more he says there was a fall the more we find

we find common the more we find as for the um as

common the more we find as for the um as for the more we find Common Ground the

for the more we find Common Ground the more I'll deny it look I someone I wrote

more I'll deny it look I someone I wrote a book once called letter us to a young

a book once called letter us to a young contrarian and a guy old guy came up to

contrarian and a guy old guy came up to me in Los Angeles at a bookstore the

me in Los Angeles at a bookstore the other day with a copy of it and said

other day with a copy of it and said would I sign it and I said sure and he

would I sign it and I said sure and he said I tried to give it to my son said

said I tried to give it to my son said this old guy in the hope that he'd

this old guy in the hope that he'd become a contrarian but he

refused my my opin there is there is uh a gulf fixed as it says in scripture a

a gulf fixed as it says in scripture a gulf fixed between not just what uh

gulf fixed between not just what uh Douglas Wilson thinks and what I think

Douglas Wilson thinks and what I think but in uh how we think we just don't

but in uh how we think we just don't think the same way it's not we we don't

think the same way it's not we we don't disagree on DET details or on matters of

disagree on DET details or on matters of fact or so on or even interpretation we

fact or so on or even interpretation we just don't think the same way it would

just don't think the same way it would be completely impossible to make

be completely impossible to make compatible or reconcile our our methods

compatible or reconcile our our methods of of thinking I attribute my presence

of of thinking I attribute my presence here among you to the operations of the

here among you to the operations of the laws of biology and random mutation and

laws of biology and random mutation and natural selection I have no reason to

natural selection I have no reason to think that I'm any different from

think that I'm any different from everybody else in that respect I don't

everybody else in that respect I don't think that you're here for that reason

think that you're here for that reason and I'm here because of a divine plan I

and I'm here because of a divine plan I can't make myself think it I don't think

can't make myself think it I don't think it would be a good thing if I could make

it would be a good thing if I could make myself think it's as simple as that um

myself think it's as simple as that um and I'm very glad that there's no reason

and I'm very glad that there's no reason to believe that there is a supernatural

to believe that there is a supernatural guidance and Authority because as I said

guidance and Authority because as I said to you earlier if there was one it would

to you earlier if there was one it would be able to convict me of thought crime

be able to convict me of thought crime and it would be an unanswerable

and it would be an unanswerable unchallengeable

unchallengeable totalitarian dictatorship so to me it's

totalitarian dictatorship so to me it's a huge pleasure to realize that the the

a huge pleasure to realize that the the the evidence for this is

the evidence for this is non-existent

non-existent okay a random mutated question from the

okay a random mutated question from the Hitchens

Hitchens ey um thank you you both for being here

ey um thank you you both for being here you I think you started touching on what

you I think you started touching on what I was going to ask um but my question

I was going to ask um but my question was that if there is a loving God um

was that if there is a loving God um what

what would or what could he do or what would

would or what could he do or what would he have to do for you to believe that he

he have to do for you to believe that he existed and to get to know him well if

existed and to get to know him well if there was a loving God I can't but feel

there was a loving God I can't but feel that one would know

that one would know it we wouldn't I mean in other words I

it we wouldn't I mean in other words I think there always baffled me about not

think there always baffled me about not just Christians various kinds but Jews

just Christians various kinds but Jews and Muslims because they keep asking God

and Muslims because they keep asking God why why do you let this happen why why

why why do you let this happen why why do you permit all this appalling

do you permit all this appalling suffering why do children die of cancer

suffering why do children die of cancer in the womb why do you can fill it all

in the womb why do you can fill it all in for yourself I always thought that's

in for yourself I always thought that's ridiculous I mean if I believed in God I

ridiculous I mean if I believed in God I would have enough respect for the idea

would have enough respect for the idea of an omniscient ineffable omnicompetent

of an omniscient ineffable omnicompetent omnipotent omnipresent deity not to be

omnipotent omnipresent deity not to be pestering him with um demands for an

pestering him with um demands for an explanation of himself it would be

explanation of himself it would be enough surely that there was this not

enough surely that there was this not that it was some equal that you could be

that it was some equal that you could be having a a bullying match with as like

having a a bullying match with as like the Book of Job where God descends to

the Book of Job where God descends to pettiness and Spite and revenge makes

pettiness and Spite and revenge makes himself look ridiculous you wouldn't do

himself look ridiculous you wouldn't do that I'd say the explanation wouldn't be

that I'd say the explanation wouldn't be available to me my brain wouldn't be big

available to me my brain wouldn't be big enough to understand it my Consciousness

enough to understand it my Consciousness wouldn't but um the reason why I say

wouldn't but um the reason why I say that is because it's pretty self-evident

that is because it's pretty self-evident that if there is a deity

that if there is a deity he is not a loving and compassionate and

he is not a loving and compassionate and tender one who wishes all the best for

tender one who wishes all the best for us all the time loving and compassionate

us all the time loving and compassionate and tender one who wishes all the best

and tender one who wishes all the best for us all the time if that was so our

for us all the time if that was so our lives would be banal they'd be empty

lives would be banal they'd be empty they'd be pointless they'd have no

they'd be pointless they'd have no meaning we'd have no reason for an

meaning we'd have no reason for an independence of Mind we'd have no reason

independence of Mind we'd have no reason for inquiry or free will we'd have no

for inquiry or free will we'd have no reason to to relish the struggle for

reason to to relish the struggle for Innovation by anxiety and doubt and so

Innovation by anxiety and doubt and so all of that would be it would be it

all of that would be it would be it would be it would be a warm bath it be

would be it would be a warm bath it be like being a Buddhist

like being a Buddhist the warm bath of semic Consciousness and

the warm bath of semic Consciousness and and

and benignity thank thank goodness it's not

benignity thank thank goodness it's not true he almost almost said thank God

true he almost almost said thank God thank

thank goodness so that clo uh in other words I

goodness so that clo uh in other words I suppose my I mean this is this is as far

suppose my I mean this is this is as far as I'd take it when I talked about

as I'd take it when I talked about dictatorship before I would say of it if

dictatorship before I would say of it if it was Celestial what I would say about

it was Celestial what I would say about it if it was human and and merely

it if it was human and and merely terrestrial um that it would be even

terrestrial um that it would be even worse if it came came to me under the

worse if it came came to me under the excuse of being

excuse of being benign the worst kind of patronizing

benign the worst kind of patronizing tyrannical Authority is the one that

tyrannical Authority is the one that says it's it's it's controlling you for

says it's it's it's controlling you for your own good right thank you thank you

your own good right thank you thank you over

over here

here Wilson given your statement at the very

Wilson given your statement at the very beginning of this uh debate that you

beginning of this uh debate that you recognize evidences as being useful but

recognize evidences as being useful but you are not in fact an

you are not in fact an evidentialist um given your response to

evidentialist um given your response to Mr Hitchens to why you believe citing

Mr Hitchens to why you believe citing evidences given your answer to my fellow

evidences given your answer to my fellow student Matthew given to why you believe

student Matthew given to why you believe certain things answering with

certain things answering with evidences how do you claim to not be an

evidences how do you claim to not be an evidentialist when thus far we have

evidentialist when thus far we have heard no mention of a uh divine

heard no mention of a uh divine revelation and do you have and how do

revelation and do you have and how do you understand the noetic effects of a

you understand the noetic effects of a relationship with

relationship with Christ great question uh what I was

Christ great question uh what I was attempting to answer this there was my

attempting to answer this there was my belief in particular Miracles particular

belief in particular Miracles particular historical details uh and that has to do

historical details uh and that has to do with the infallibility of scripture

with the infallibility of scripture which I accept the full infallibility of

which I accept the full infallibility of scripture and I accept all the Miracles

scripture and I accept all the Miracles and I accept all the Miracles because of

and I accept all the Miracles because of the resurrection of Christ the broader

the resurrection of Christ the broader question um do uh do I believe in that

question um do uh do I believe in that God Reveals His his existence to us um

God Reveals His his existence to us um through scriptures and through the

through scriptures and through the general creation yes I do so I don't

general creation yes I do so I don't need a miracle I I don't need a miracle

need a miracle I I don't need a miracle a special miracle in order to believe in

a special miracle in order to believe in God or to believe in his Triune

God or to believe in his Triune character uh God's Eternal majesty and

character uh God's Eternal majesty and power have been clearly shown Paul says

power have been clearly shown Paul says in Romans 1 through through the things

in Romans 1 through through the things that have been made so General

that have been made so General Revelation is sufficient to declare the

Revelation is sufficient to declare the power and Majesty of the Divine godhead

power and Majesty of the Divine godhead and I believe number one does it's not

and I believe number one does it's not just that God does that toward us but

just that God does that toward us but it's not just that he gives us light but

it's not just that he gives us light but he gives us eyes so I believe our

he gives us eyes so I believe our capacity to know that God is there is

capacity to know that God is there is built in and this ties in with the

built in and this ties in with the noetic effects of of sin on our thought

noetic effects of of sin on our thought processes again in Romans 1 Paul says

processes again in Romans 1 Paul says that men suppress the truth in

that men suppress the truth in unrighteousness though the things that

unrighteousness though the things that are known about God are clearly

are known about God are clearly evidenced they suppress the truth and

evidenced they suppress the truth and unrighteousness that's the noetic effect

unrighteousness that's the noetic effect of sin so I believe that one of the

of sin so I believe that one of the things that we have to keep in mind and

things that we have to keep in mind and this goes back to Christopher's answer

this goes back to Christopher's answer answer to the previous question and that

answer to the previous question and that is when we look at Wars and turmoil and

is when we look at Wars and turmoil and stress and strife in the world we can't

stress and strife in the world we can't just say there's God who's holy and

just say there's God who's holy and infinite and good and man who's innocent

infinite and good and man who's innocent and never did anything wrong and why are

and never did anything wrong and why are these terrible things happening we have

these terrible things happening we have to take sin into account not only for

to take sin into account not only for the state the world is in but for the

the state the world is in but for the way as a a way of explaining why we

way as a a way of explaining why we respond to those events the way that we

respond to those events the way that we do so um I um I believe that evidences

do so um I um I believe that evidences are important and they can be plugged

are important and they can be plugged into the discussion but I presuppose uh

into the discussion but I presuppose uh the Triune God of scripture declared in

the Triune God of scripture declared in creation and in scripture and begin

there you don't have to uh no I I just think I mean I I that's what I I assume

think I mean I I that's what I I assume Faith must be is the willingness to

Faith must be is the willingness to assume what you have to

assume what you have to prove and to come before an an educated

prove and to come before an an educated audience and say it's true because it's

audience and say it's true because it's in the Bible and I believe in the Bible

in the Bible and I believe in the Bible because it's true uh I used to hear when

because it's true uh I used to hear when I was a kid Jesus loves me this I know

I was a kid Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me

for the Bible tells me so I don't think that's evidence I don't

so I don't think that's evidence I don't think that's argument but if it's Faith

think that's argument but if it's Faith it's I suppose that's what it must be

it's I suppose that's what it must be but you just assumed and stated asserted

but you just assumed and stated asserted what you were asked to prove sure I have

what you were asked to prove sure I have faith in the Bible can't have escaped

faith in the Bible can't have escaped your attention cand ladies and gentlemen

your attention cand ladies and gentlemen you have faith in reason and I no I

you have faith in reason and I no I don't no absolutely you do not have

don't no absolutely you do not have faith in reason you don't no well very

faith in reason you don't no well very good I try sharpen my I try and sharpen

good I try sharpen my I try and sharpen my practice of Reason doubt skepticism

my practice of Reason doubt skepticism the weighing of argument against

the weighing of argument against evidence and of evidence against

evidence and of evidence against interest in other words I'm more

interest in other words I'm more inclined to doubt something if its truth

inclined to doubt something if its truth would be something that would suit me

would be something that would suit me one of the moral superiorities of

one of the moral superiorities of atheism by the way is we don't

atheism by the way is we don't particularly want it to be true that we

particularly want it to be true that we shall be annihilated when we die that

shall be annihilated when we die that there's nothing to hope for from the

there's nothing to hope for from the heaven that the heavens are empty uh we

heaven that the heavens are empty uh we don't necessarily love that idea uh but

don't necessarily love that idea uh but we're willing to face it since the

we're willing to face it since the evidence for the contrary appears to be

evidence for the contrary appears to be trivial or

trivial or non-existent we don't we don't indulge

non-existent we don't we don't indulge in wish thinking and we don't assert as

in wish thinking and we don't assert as true what we've just been asked to prove

true what we've just been asked to prove I have to say I think that's a

I have to say I think that's a methodological difference worth

methodological difference worth observing in a in an institution of

observing in a in an institution of higher education tell me again why you

higher education tell me again why you don't believe in

don't believe in reason because reason is by definition

reason because reason is by definition not something that is a matter of fact

not something that is a matter of fact fath it's acatic no it's it's a kind

fath it's acatic no it's it's a kind like the Bible it's a it's a process

like the Bible it's a it's a process it's no I I begin with the Bible you

it's no I I begin with the Bible you begin with reason I have faith in the

begin with reason I have faith in the Bible you have faith and reason you

Bible you have faith and reason you think and if if I ask you man one you're

think and if if I ask you man one you're a man of one book if and you're a man of

a man of one book if and you're a man of um one thought

um one thought right so what you if you laugh at that

right so what you if you laugh at that You' laugh I think we'd probably be like

You' laugh I think we'd probably be like Bill Mah's audience you'd laugh at

Bill Mah's audience you'd laugh at anything no what to say that you believe

anything no what to say that you believe in the process of Reason inquiry

in the process of Reason inquiry skepticism and the measurement of

skepticism and the measurement of evidence against interest

evidence against interest so that you would doubt most of all

so that you would doubt most of all something that favored your own

something that favored your own conclusion you'd subject that to more

conclusion you'd subject that to more scrutiny you call that one thought

scrutiny you call that one thought you're you have contempt for thought if

you're you have contempt for thought if you think that I I'm sorry I have to not

you think that I I'm sorry I have to not stop trying to be funny here no h hang

stop trying to be funny here no h hang on a second if you have contempt For

on a second if you have contempt For Thought simply because you recognize

Thought simply because you recognize that someone who bases everything on

that someone who bases everything on reason has faith in the reasoning

reason has faith in the reasoning process what's wrong with saying that

process what's wrong with saying that why can't you say I have confidence and

why can't you say I have confidence and reason I have faith and reason I trust

reason I have faith and reason I trust in the reasoning process you won't say

in the reasoning process you won't say that because it will reveal that both

that because it will reveal that both our positions are Faith positions if you

our positions are Faith positions if you ask me why I believe in the Bible and I

ask me why I believe in the Bible and I flip open the Bible and show you a verse

flip open the Bible and show you a verse you say you're appealing to what you

you say you're appealing to what you need to prove if I ask you why do you

need to prove if I ask you why do you believe in reason and give me a reason

believe in reason and give me a reason then you open your you open your book

then you open your you open your book you open the reason you give a reason

you open the reason you give a reason you're again you're making a huge leap I

you're again you're making a huge leap I say I say that the Bible like the Quran

say I say that the Bible like the Quran and like the Torah is man-made not godm

and like the Torah is man-made not godm made it's a it's a it's a human-made

made it's a it's a it's a human-made literary accretion full of pluris

literary accretion full of pluris contradiction fragmentation and so on

contradiction fragmentation and so on it's like every other book ever written

it's like every other book ever written there's nothing Divine about it and the

there's nothing Divine about it and the appeal to to it saying I can Trump

appeal to to it saying I can Trump anything you say because here's God's

anything you say because here's God's word on the page is a contemptible way

word on the page is a contemptible way of arguing I I wrote a logic textbook

of arguing I I wrote a logic textbook does that make logic

does that make logic manmade logic is man-made

yes yeah so logic so there's no reason to follow it then no if there's if I

to follow it then no if there's if I reject Bible because it's man philos

reject Bible because it's man philos logic logic is the attempt by humans to

logic logic is the attempt by humans to make sense it isn't it isn't it isn't a

make sense it isn't it isn't it isn't a Divine endowment that we possess same

Divine endowment that we possess same with philosophy philosophy means the

with philosophy philosophy means the love of wisdom we don't say it's the

love of wisdom we don't say it's the Revelation by you say what you have is

Revelation by you say what you have is revealed now here's the way of

revealed now here's the way of clarifying the difference between us

clarifying the difference between us somebody asked earlier I don't claim to

somebody asked earlier I don't claim to know more than I can everything I've

know more than I can everything I've said this evening I backed by assertions

said this evening I backed by assertions evidence argument jlas Wilson is just as

evidence argument jlas Wilson is just as modest and friendly and tender chap as I

modest and friendly and tender chap as I am says yeah but I have an advantage

am says yeah but I have an advantage over Christopher which is I know what

over Christopher which is I know what God wants and I know what he says in his

God wants and I know what he says in his book I have access to higher authority

book I have access to higher authority now what I want you I'll ask him but I I

now what I want you I'll ask him but I I don't care I've asked him before you

don't care I've asked him before you have to ask him how does he know that

have to ask him how does he know that and by what right does he claim to know

and by what right does he claim to know the mind of God and if you were a

the mind of God and if you were a serious spiritual person wouldn't you

serious spiritual person wouldn't you think it was a bit much that someone

think it was a bit much that someone said they could come before you and tell

said they could come before you and tell you what God

you what God wanted as long as they don't call it

wanted as long as they don't call it modesty I don't mind as long as they

modesty I don't mind as long as they don't call it humility I don't mind but

don't call it humility I don't mind but I don't like being told that my

I don't like being told that my arguments aren't as good as his because

arguments aren't as good as his because he has uh Divine information that's

he has uh Divine information that's withheld from

withheld from me yes sir I think we're over here thank

me yes sir I think we're over here thank you um you used physics extensively in

you um you used physics extensively in your your opening statement how do you

your your opening statement how do you answer hume's problem of induction and

answer hume's problem of induction and as perhaps to anticipate a possible

as perhaps to anticipate a possible answer if you take the conting route and

answer if you take the conting route and say that causality is a precondition for

say that causality is a precondition for experience how then do you rationally

experience how then do you rationally justify your belief that your future

justify your belief that your future experience will be uniform and cause an

experience will be uniform and cause an effect like your past experience was

effect like your past experience was well I don't I don't think it's an un an

well I don't I don't think it's an un an improbable or unfair projection that

improbable or unfair projection that that would be the case but that's

that would be the case but that's begging the question well yes but uh and

begging the question well yes but uh and I'm not a physicist either

I'm not a physicist either but I mean look look the the the what I

but I mean look look the the the what I what I there's an assumption with which

what I there's an assumption with which I will dispense okay the before the

I will dispense okay the before the inquiry begins I'll just tell you what

inquiry begins I'll just tell you what it is there is there is no Supernatural

it is there is there is no Supernatural intervention in this

intervention in this argument okay it's not going to be

argument okay it's not going to be resolved that way it's not going to be

resolved that way it's not going to be referred

referred upwards to the celestial dictator uh

upwards to the celestial dictator uh that's not the way these for example the

that's not the way these for example the maybe the greatest of the early

maybe the greatest of the early physicist llas when he shows his working

physicist llas when he shows his working model of the system to the

model of the system to the emperor and here at last you you're

emperor and here at last you you're looking at the solar system and the from

looking at the solar system and the from the outside as an aary not from the

the outside as an aary not from the inside looking at externally as a model

inside looking at externally as a model and the emperor says well Mr plus

and the emperor says well Mr plus there's no God in this extraordinary

there's no God in this extraordinary revolution of these bodies slightly

revolution of these bodies slightly irregular though it is because it's it

irregular though it is because it's it is slight irregular showing it's not

is slight irregular showing it's not been

been designed and he says will your majesty

designed and he says will your majesty it just happens to work without that

it just happens to work without that assumption it does now llas has in

assumption it does now llas has in common with doulas Wilson a great thing

common with doulas Wilson a great thing he was a complete determinist you

he was a complete determinist you thought that everything was ever going

thought that everything was ever going to happen had already in a sense taken

to happen had already in a sense taken place that it was it was predetermined

place that it was it was predetermined but I don't think it's necessary to

but I don't think it's necessary to believe that to realize that the system

believe that to realize that the system wobbly imperfect

wobbly imperfect uh and Half Baked as it is operates

uh and Half Baked as it is operates perfectly well as we observe it leaves

perfectly well as we observe it leaves nothing else to be

nothing else to be explained without the Assumption of any

explained without the Assumption of any divine intervention Lassa system without

divine intervention Lassa system without determinism is no system it doesn't work

determinism is no system it doesn't work at all it's an orary it shows how the

at all it's an orary it shows how the planets

moveis even Isaac Newton who was prey to every kind of superstition he noticed

every kind of superstition he noticed that the planets wobble a bit that their

that the planets wobble a bit that their orbits are not quite perfect and he said

orbits are not quite perfect and he said well it must be that God every now and

well it must be that God every now and then intervenes to put them back on

then intervenes to put them back on course because he couldn't have designed

course because he couldn't have designed the thing to wobble like that because

the thing to wobble like that because you know pretty soon things will start

you know pretty soon things will start to fly out of uh out of O which they

to fly out of uh out of O which they indeed they will because as we know our

indeed they will because as we know our system is doomed as is our son we we may

system is doomed as is our son we we may think we have something now we have a

think we have something now we have a lot of nothingness coming and we can

lot of nothingness coming and we can read it in the skies the physics has

read it in the skies the physics has already told us that it's going to be

already told us that it's going to be all

all over uh some designer by the way and

over uh some designer by the way and some design and as I meant to say to the

some design and as I meant to say to the lady earlier who said it was a loving

lady earlier who said it was a loving God maybe loving but only intermittently

God maybe loving but only intermittently so maybe loving but only some of the

so maybe loving but only some of the time is also very

time is also very incompetent very absent minded sometimes

incompetent very absent minded sometimes very capricious and sometimes very cruel

very capricious and sometimes very cruel and you know what as a father myself I

and you know what as a father myself I can tell you as you can you can be all

can tell you as you can you can be all those things at once so why do we make

those things at once so why do we make Mysteries where not

Mysteries where not exist that's my guess my closing

exist that's my guess my closing question we'll allow one more question

question we'll allow one more question over here and then we'll have to uh

over here and then we'll have to uh conclude there is we hear you there is a

conclude there is we hear you there is a tremendous contempt by uh modern

tremendous contempt by uh modern atheistic liberals for religion the

atheistic liberals for religion the irony is that since the beginning of

irony is that since the beginning of civilization there has been religion and

civilization there has been religion and religion religious symbolism the

religion religious symbolism the alternative we have is between an

alternative we have is between an uncentered uh concatenation of Adams and

uncentered uh concatenation of Adams and a centered individual before corondo

a centered individual before corondo before a holy God certainly more

before a holy God certainly more compelling I ask you Mr Wilson to say

compelling I ask you Mr Wilson to say something in comment here at the end

something in comment here at the end about the STK contrast between a

about the STK contrast between a centered

centered purposefulness and a concatenation an

purposefulness and a concatenation an Epicurean concatenation of Adams that Mr

Epicurean concatenation of Adams that Mr Hitchin seems to support yes can I uh

Hitchin seems to support yes can I uh take that as an invitation for each of

take that as an invitation for each of us to make a closing statement yes you

us to make a closing statement yes you may right

may right good um and I'll just key off of that um

good um and I'll just key off of that um the um I believe that that goes to the

the um I believe that that goes to the heart of the matter if what kind of

heart of the matter if what kind of universe is this what's going on in it

universe is this what's going on in it and can my postulating that this is

and can my postulating that this is what's going on give an account of what

what's going on give an account of what I'm currently doing in explaining that

I'm currently doing in explaining that if I believe that you have if the

if I believe that you have if the universe is simply uh an infinite

universe is simply uh an infinite billiard table with all the atoms and

billiard table with all the atoms and the you know just bang around and that's

the you know just bang around and that's all the universe is is a concourse of

all the universe is is a concourse of atoms banging around jostling their way

atoms banging around jostling their way through history how do how can I get

through history how do how can I get from that to an articulate explanation

from that to an articulate explanation of how it got there um and this is true

of how it got there um and this is true as I said at the beginning of Truth

as I said at the beginning of Truth goodness and Beauty if I walk into the

goodness and Beauty if I walk into the kitchen if I walk into the kitchen and I

kitchen if I walk into the kitchen and I see a bunch of a puddle of milk on the

see a bunch of a puddle of milk on the floor and I want to know what happened

floor and I want to know what happened uh and I start asking questions I I

uh and I start asking questions I I don't ask the milk milk the milk doesn't

don't ask the milk milk the milk doesn't know it's the accident all right now if

know it's the accident all right now if there if the universe if the cosmos is

there if the universe if the cosmos is simply an accident then why ask it or

simply an accident then why ask it or any subset of it what's going on it

any subset of it what's going on it doesn't know it's the accident uh

doesn't know it's the accident uh Christopher earlier said that he he

Christopher earlier said that he he wanted to position himself somewhere

wanted to position himself somewhere between my fizzing bottles of pop the

between my fizzing bottles of pop the just the Mindless chemical reaction and

just the Mindless chemical reaction and the purpose of um uh created the image

the purpose of um uh created the image of God

of God uh desire for um truth goodness and

uh desire for um truth goodness and beauty and so forth he wanted to

beauty and so forth he wanted to position himself somewhere between those

position himself somewhere between those um but my question is why given what you

um but my question is why given what you say the universe is given what you say

say the universe is given what you say the cosmos is Give me the sism give me

the cosmos is Give me the sism give me the reasoning process that shows how

the reasoning process that shows how meaning can arise from non-meaning Avid

meaning can arise from non-meaning Avid in his book The Metamorphoses describes

in his book The Metamorphoses describes how there was chaos at the beginning and

how there was chaos at the beginning and then one day the gods sprang out of

then one day the gods sprang out of chaos well I believe that that's what's

chaos well I believe that that's what's happening in the atheistic worldview

happening in the atheistic worldview it's it's they're saying there's chaos

it's it's they're saying there's chaos and then one day uh a miracle happens

and then one day uh a miracle happens one day you have intelligence design

one day you have intelligence design self-reflection knowledge logic and so

self-reflection knowledge logic and so forth Just spring from chaos like aidian

forth Just spring from chaos like aidian Gods springing from the chaos in the

Gods springing from the chaos in the ancient world I don't believe that that

ancient world I don't believe that that can be demonstrated I don't even think

can be demonstrated I don't even think the modern uh I I I've not encountered

the modern uh I I I've not encountered an atheist who even attempts to give a

an atheist who even attempts to give a reckoning for it who uh attempts to give

reckoning for it who uh attempts to give an accounting for the process by which

an accounting for the process by which chaos gives rise to logical order

chaos gives rise to logical order aesthetic order or moral

aesthetic order or moral order thank you the questioner said that

order thank you the questioner said that the The View that um the universe was

the The View that um the universe was full of Caprice and Randomness and uh

full of Caprice and Randomness and uh probably didn't know we were here uh and

probably didn't know we were here uh and may not know may not register our

may not know may not register our departure if we should be extinguished

departure if we should be extinguished was the view that I supported

was the view that I supported the evident fallacy in what he said

the evident fallacy in what he said should be I hope clear from what I'd

should be I hope clear from what I'd said before and I'm sorry if I put it so

said before and I'm sorry if I put it so badly or I'm even sorry if he wasn't

badly or I'm even sorry if he wasn't prepared to pay attention I don't

prepared to pay attention I don't support this view pay attention I don't

support this view pay attention I don't support this view it's not I don't

support this view it's not I don't Advocate that evolution is true and that

Advocate that evolution is true and that the Big Bang took place it's not part of

the Big Bang took place it's not part of my propaganda I accept it I think the

my propaganda I accept it I think the evidence is overwhelming that that is in

evidence is overwhelming that that is in fact the case I don't dispute it because

fact the case I don't dispute it because it might be nicer to think that instead

it might be nicer to think that instead of that there was a God who was looking

of that there was a God who was looking out for me I can't make myself believe

out for me I can't make myself believe something because it might be convenient

something because it might be convenient to do so now how difficult is this to

to do so now how difficult is this to hoist in let me give you some examples

hoist in let me give you some examples some ways to think about it in closing

some ways to think about it in closing you um compounded your mistake sir by

you um compounded your mistake sir by saying that it was either that there was

saying that it was either that there was an

an epicurian uh naturalism or there was a

epicurian uh naturalism or there was a divinely supervised purpose-driven uh

divinely supervised purpose-driven uh Cosmos as if those were the only ch

Cosmos as if those were the only ch Alternatives absolutely not so as I had

Alternatives absolutely not so as I had already said to the lady there assume a

already said to the lady there assume a loving God if you will I'll have to add

loving God if you will I'll have to add on the evidence that this God may be

on the evidence that this God may be sometimes absent minded sometimes

sometimes absent minded sometimes capricious sometimes incompetent

capricious sometimes incompetent sometimes cruel uh how if you have an

sometimes cruel uh how if you have an anthropomorphic conception of God can

anthropomorphic conception of God can you deny me the right to do this uh if

you deny me the right to do this uh if there's a God who you're so sure is

there's a God who you're so sure is determined to intervene in and supervise

determined to intervene in and supervise Our Lives For Heaven's Sake you use the

Our Lives For Heaven's Sake you use the cranial capacity that Evolution has at

cranial capacity that Evolution has at least given you

least given you now I recommend you look at Lawrence

now I recommend you look at Lawrence krauss's work he writes a very good

krauss's work he writes a very good column every month in the Scientific

column every month in the Scientific American also in the New Scientist he's

American also in the New Scientist he's probably the greatest living physicist

probably the greatest living physicist he's the person who worked out something

he's the person who worked out something very

very important which was this Edwin Hubble

important which was this Edwin Hubble was not just right that the universe is

was not just right that the universe is expanding with red shift light at an

expanding with red shift light at an extraordinary rate of knots so that very

extraordinary rate of knots so that very soon it won't be possible ible by

soon it won't be possible ible by analyzing even with the Hubble telescope

analyzing even with the Hubble telescope named after him the effects of the Big

named after him the effects of the Big Bang any longer they they won't be

Bang any longer they they won't be visible anymore because the rate of

visible anymore because the rate of expansion is not slowing down as

expansion is not slowing down as newtonians used to think it must it's

newtonians used to think it must it's increasing so the Big Bang is is causing

increasing so the Big Bang is is causing everything to fly apart at a much much

everything to fly apart at a much much faster rate so very very very soon where

faster rate so very very very soon where there was something there will be

there was something there will be nothing and you only have to look into

nothing and you only have to look into the night sky and to see the Andromeda

the night sky and to see the Andromeda Galaxy you can see it already it's

Galaxy you can see it already it's headed directly for us some

headed directly for us some designed we we can already see the

designed we we can already see the appointed destroyer of our universe and

appointed destroyer of our universe and it's not from The Book of Revelation

it's not from The Book of Revelation it's not from some nonsensical raving

it's not from some nonsensical raving Christian propaganda from the island of

Christian propaganda from the island of Patmos it's just there it's part of the

Patmos it's just there it's part of the way the universe is so you have to make

way the universe is so you have to make that fit don't you with your argument

that fit don't you with your argument for a purposeful loving caring designer

for a purposeful loving caring designer who thinks who knows that we're all here

who thinks who knows that we're all here do it if you can all right uh I'll I'll

do it if you can all right uh I'll I'll try one

try one more the the designer of the National

more the the designer of the National Geographics Genome Project you should

Geographics Genome Project you should all send in your sample and find out

all send in your sample and find out where your ancestors came from in Africa

where your ancestors came from in Africa has written a most extraordinary piece

has written a most extraordinary piece he's they've now done and now sequenced

he's they've now done and now sequenced it all back into Africa and they found

it all back into Africa and they found out where our species

out where our species began um in Africa in the savannah after

began um in Africa in the savannah after a climatic crisis it's very easy to

a climatic crisis it's very easy to imagine now something like a Titanic

imagine now something like a Titanic volcanic explosion in Indonesia that

volcanic explosion in Indonesia that blotted out the Sun that altered the

blotted out the Sun that altered the whole climate against us uh it's thought

whole climate against us uh it's thought that the species went down to

that the species went down to about about

about about 5,000 in fact in other words before they

5,000 in fact in other words before they decided to make the migration North find

decided to make the migration North find somewhere coola abandoned the Savannah

somewhere coola abandoned the Savannah for which our bodies are designed we

for which our bodies are designed we nearly went we were 5,000 casualties

nearly went we were 5,000 casualties short of going the way that 98.9%

of every species ever created ever found to be present on this Earth has has

to be present on this Earth has has already gone into Extinction I'll say it

already gone into Extinction I'll say it again effectively 99% of every species

again effectively 99% of every species ever on Earth has already become

ever on Earth has already become extinct and nearly us some design some

extinct and nearly us some design some father some caring God some designing

father some caring God some designing supervising there is no recourse to a

supervising there is no recourse to a dictatorial Authority in this it's very

dictatorial Authority in this it's very lucky that here the randomness in that

lucky that here the randomness in that case worked in our

case worked in our favor Francis Collins the Christian uh

favor Francis Collins the Christian uh genome scientist thinks we've been here

genome scientist thinks we've been here maybe 100,00 years Richard Dawkins

maybe 100,00 years Richard Dawkins thinks maybe a quarter of a million I'll

thinks maybe a quarter of a million I'll take a

take a 100 100,000 years for 98,000 of those

100 100,000 years for 98,000 of those years if you're a Christian you have to

years if you're a Christian you have to believe Heaven watched with folded

believe Heaven watched with folded arms most people died of climatic crisis

arms most people died of climatic crisis in Africa or just watched their children

in Africa or just watched their children die as soon as they were born or saw

die as soon as they were born or saw them perhaps struggle for a few years uh

them perhaps struggle for a few years uh life expectancy maybe 25 people dying of

life expectancy maybe 25 people dying of their teeth of revolting deficiency

their teeth of revolting deficiency diseases misery struggle famine turf

diseases misery struggle famine turf wars over women turf wars over territory

wars over women turf wars over territory Terror at any Supernatural seeming event

Terror at any Supernatural seeming event an earthquake a comet everything a

an earthquake a comet everything a nightmare a mystery no germ theory of

nightmare a mystery no germ theory of disease fear trembling but slowly

disease fear trembling but slowly gradually struggling struggling onward

gradually struggling struggling onward to become Homo sapiens for 98,000 years

to become Homo sapiens for 98,000 years Heaven watches that not caring and then

Heaven watches that not caring and then says 2,000 years ago it's time to

says 2,000 years ago it's time to intervene why don't we give God a son

intervene why don't we give God a son and murder him cruy in a in an

and murder him cruy in a in an illiterate part of the Middle East that

illiterate part of the Middle East that ought that ought to solve

ought that ought to solve it that's what you have to believe to be

it that's what you have to believe to be a Christian well I invite you to believe

a Christian well I invite you to believe it uh but I I can't Envy you uh the the

it uh but I I can't Envy you uh the the sheer

sheer strenuousness The Unbelievable contempt

strenuousness The Unbelievable contempt for for evidence the Fantastic

for for evidence the Fantastic indifference to everything that Humanity

indifference to everything that Humanity has actually succeeded in finding out

has actually succeeded in finding out about itself and its Cosmos and its

about itself and its Cosmos and its species that you need to keep this uh

species that you need to keep this uh this little cult

this little cult alive all the same thanks for having me

alive all the same thanks for having me well

well um this

thank you than

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YouTube Transkripti:Christopher Hitchens vs. Douglas Wilson Debate at Westminster