I think too many people quit too early
and we give oursel the options in the
parachutes and things like relationships
and work self-help and we pull at some
when we could still be flying even
though maybe rocky flight we pull it
early and okay it's a safe move got down
to the ground what I was building didn't
last but most of the time it could if
you'd hung in there but if you have any
ambition resistance is going to come and
so own that >> Matthew
>> Matthew >> Matthew
>> Matthew
>> Matthew Mah
>> you've been able to climb to the very
top of the mountain again and again and
again. Is this natural talent or is
there anything transferable?
>> First to look at what's in your DNA.
Like I wanted to play basketball, but no
matter how hard I worked, I was not the
fastest nor the biggest. To look at what
do you have an innate ability for? Then
what are you willing to hustle for? And
this is very important because some of
us have innate ability, but we don't
work for it. We grew up hardcore on
hustle, hustle, hustle. Sleep was sin in
my household and no TV. Mom would always
say, "Why are you going to watch someone
doing something when you can go out in
the world and do it yourself?" And then
number three, endurance. I remember this
one time when I told my agent, "What I
want to do is dramas, no more romcoms."
And this $8 million offer comes in,
comedy. I read it. I said, "No, thank
you." I come back with a $12 million
offer. No thanks. $14.5 million offer. I
said, "Let me read that again."
Ultimately said, "No, I just bought
myself a one-way ticket out of
Hollywood." About 20 months after offers
came in, would those have come if id
have never stepped out? No.
>> No. Number four. If you do this, you're
most likely going to have some success
in life and that is you.
>> And what about Admiral Bill McRaven?
>> So he shared great wisdom with me when I
was seeking out male mentors.
>> We reached out to Bill and he wrote this
letter for you. He said, "Dear Matthew, wow.
wow.
Are you able to share what you were
seeking guidance from him about? [Music]
To my regular listeners, I know you
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get on with the show. [Music]
[Music] Matthew,
Matthew,
you're a
particularly surprisingly
artistic, creative, wise,
wise,
yet materially successful individual.
And it wasn't until I dove deeper into
your story that I started to understand
why that was why you are to me in my
mind such an anomaly because you are you
seem to be several things that don't
often appear in the same place. So my
first question to you is what do I need
to understand about your earliest
context to understand
who you are, the values you have and the
perspective that you view the world with?
with?
>> Fun question.
basic values
of respect yourself, respect others,
give a damn about yourself, give a damn
about others. Combined with a mother
that wherever we went
in the world that we might have been a
little nervous to take a risk at, she
was like, "Don't walk in there like you
want to buy the place. Walk in like you
own it." So a a sort of boosting up of
what you could say is massive ego but
also you were not allowed to walk on
your proverbial toes in our family. you
were brought down. And if anyone
in our family, if anything, I would say
going back, I think mom, mom and dad
maybe could have been a little more
lenient with the successes that we had
and let when we did parade, when my
brother did win the the track meet and
walk through the house like this to
allow him to do that and and and you
weren't allowed to. You weren't allowed
to do that. You were immediately
humbled. No matter if you were coming
right off a victory or a win or a box
office hit, you weren't allowed to. At
the same time, you were raised up once
you were humbled. Um,
that balance. We were taught resilience.
Heavy heavy duty resilience. Baseline gratitude.
gratitude.
Quit asking me for new shoes. I'm going
to introduce you to the kid with no
feet. Well, okay. Like sobering. These
were were these apherisms from my
mother. Yeah, but they were pounded into
us. All right. At the same time,
I was spent 36 years thinking I was
little Mr. Texas cuz my mom told me I
was until 36 years later I look at the
trophy and it says I was runner up and I
go, "Oh, mom was like overselling us to
ourselves at the same time. You better
be humble." So, it was almost like that
the out anything exterior
should not give you your identity. Even
though my mom's maliprop and fibbing to
us going, "You're little Mr. Texas." Or,
"Here, write this poem. I know you
didn't write it, but it's really good.
So, turn that in for the seventh grade
poetry contest." Okay. And I win.
It's true story.
Um, so this outlaw logic of my mom and
my dad also with work ethic. Hustle,
hustle, hustle. Sleep was sin in my household.
household.
Sin. I saw my dad asleep one time in my
life. I got up at 8:00 on a Saturday
morning and looked pee went through the
kitchen and peaked and I saw him
sleeping. I went and woke up my
brother's like, "Dude, what dad's still asleep?"
asleep?"
He actually died 2 and a half months later.
later.
And connected that idea that, oh, if he
slept in that late, he must have not
been feeling well. If it was daylight,
you couldn't be inside.
There's a fierce sense of independence.
Hour, 30 minutes TV a night max. Mom
would always say, "Why are you going to
watch someone doing something when you
can go out in the world and do it
yourself? Turn that damn thing off. Get
outside." You had to be outside. Like,
go get out in the world. Go hustle.
Figure it out. Be home in the dark. That
was just the understood rule.
>> What about love?
>> We always knew we were loved. There's
never a question that we were loved as
as loving our each other, loving mom and
dad, being loved by mom and dad, and
make and mom would always keep on to
make sure you're loving yourself.
I remember breakups, heartbroken. She'd
let she'd let us mourn. She was a great
ear, very sensitive ear to that kind of
to pains like that, broken hearts.
But only for a day.
After a day, she'd crank up the AC/DC,
man, and go like, "Now, get up. You're
worth it." Her loss. Come on. Get out of
bed. Uh-uh. Come on. Uhuh. Quit moping.
Lift your head up. Come on. Come on,
buddy. We got this. Uh-uh. Her loss. To
give you the day. No more than that.
Our love in the family was physical.
My mom and dad
married three times, divorced twice to
each other. They
They
fought. I got a great story in green
lights of them fighting and my mom
bashing and breaking my dad's nose with
the phone, him getting angry, her
pulling a chef's knife out, him dancing
around, dodging these blades and then
grabbing a ketchup bottle and
like a matador going touche
and splattering over with it and she's
getting it out of us just getting so
damn I'll cut you from your pocket.
touch. And finally her getting so
frustrated, throwing the knife down,
crying, both of them crying, coming
together, embracing, going to the floor
on the lolium kitchen floor and making love,
no grounding.
You get in trouble, which we did.
one, we were always guilty when we got
in trouble,
but it was corporal. It was take your
licks. Get it over with. Take your
licks. We're not going to ground you
because that'd be taking away your time
and your time is the most valuable thing
you got. So, take it. Take your licks.
You're not going to get injured. It's
going to hurt. And don't yell cuz if you
yell more than licks, you're going to
get another one. >> Licks.
>> Licks.
>> Licks with a belt.
I can't, I hate, and lying were three
If I said I can't, my dad's teeth would
just start to go,
"Excuse me? You sure you're not just
having trouble?"
I remember this one time I was going out
to do my chores Saturday morning to mow
the lawn and I I couldn't get the damn
lawn mower to start. Checked everything,
couldn't get it to start. I'm going
inside. I said, "Dad, can you help me
out? I I can't get the lawn mower
started." And he turned around, saw his
molders. What?
And he got up, walked with me through
the kitchen, through the garage, out the
backyard, went to the lawnmower, messed
around, pulled a couple things out.
After about 10 minutes, boom, cranked
it. And while the lawnmower was running
right there,
he came over to me and bent down and
looked me. He goes, "See, son,
you were just having trouble."
I said, "I hate you to my brother." cuz
I heard the word at school and I thought
it could make me feel like I was older.
I thought it was like a a teenage soap
opera thing and I was only nine. So I
threw it out there one day at my own
birthday party. My own birthday party. I
said to her, "I hate you." And my mom
stopped the entire party. 40 kids my age
in the backyard. Stopped it. My birthday
stopped it. Pulled me around the side of
the house and he said, "What did you
say?" You don't ever use that word
especially to someone in your family.
Gave me licks on the side of the house
and then went around dry your tears
resume birthday party's back on. Don't
ever use that word especially to someone
in your family. So what did I learn from
don't say can't that
unable to do something you can even if
you can't pull it off you can go find
help which means you were just having
trouble. What I learned from getting a
butt whoop him for saying I hate you to
my brother. Well, what I was learning is
the antonyms to those words because
saying I can't, lying, and saying I hate
you were bringing me pain. So, the
opposite must bring pleasure, right?
Tell the truth, love, and believe that
you can. Those were the values, how I
remember them getting instilled in me.
And to this day,
I still have them. Trying to transfer to
my kids as well in a different way than
my parents did. But I still not even
intellectually have them. I have they're
in my they're in my being now. So the
the the the love was tough. The love was
phys. We hugged
999 times more than we more than the the
the hands soothed much more than they
hurt. 999 times out of a thousand. But
it was a we were a physical hugging
loving family. You always went to bed
with an I love you and a kiss. Even if
it was ritual, which it was,
like a Sunday service, gotta wake up.
Even if I'm not listening to the damn
preacher, I'm being subconsciously
reminded that you should take a day out
of the week to be at the most number
two. That you should go get humbled and
say thank you to a higher power and
thank you for the things that you have
in your life and thank you for the
people you have in your life and helping
those people double down on those great
attributes that they have.
So the the love was all there that I'm
happy to say that all the I have people,
you know, after that story I told about
my mom and dad with the knife and the
ketchup. People come, "Oh my god, I'm so
sorry about your childhood. Oh my god,
have you had therapy?" I'm like, "No,
and before you please, if you don't mind,
mind,
don't you feel I feel like you're
trespassing a little bit by giving by
coming out of the gate saying, "Oh my
god, you were abused." No, I wasn't abused.
abused.
And I never felt like I wasn't loved
again. I felt like I let my parents down
those times.
I did I fear my parents? Yep.
Are there a lot of things I did not do
as a kid that I should not have done for
We knew we were loved. I knew I was
loved. My brothers knew they were loved.
My second brother's adopted. He knew he
was loved. And it was hard love. And it
was tough love. And my mom and dad's
love was passionate love. Um, I mean,
divorced twice, married three times is a
pretty good example of can't live with
you, can't live without you. The one
thing I remember being crystal clear to
me when I was 8 years old,
shaking hands with these two guys that
turned out now later in life, I know
they were actually dad's collectors.
I shook their hand. Oak Forest Country
Club parking lot. Sun was down in my
eyes. They had shades on. I asked her,
"Nice to meet you, sir. Nice to meet
you, sir." I remember my eight-year-old
mind going, you know, everyone that my
dad's making me say sir to. The one
common denominator besides being older
men is they're all fathers. And in my
head, I went like, "Oh, that's what
success is.
If you become a father, you've
succeeded." And that was in my
8-year-old, that was the math I did in
my 8-year-old mind, and it stuck with
me. So, the one thing I always knew was
I wanted to be was a dad. I meet Camila,
fall in love,
we make three children. I got to 17, 15, 12.
12.
that I can put ahead of. There's there's
let me put it this way. There's no time
that I spend being a father that I do
not feel like that is the absolute best
time I could be spending.
>> You've had that since you were eight. Yeah,
Yeah,
>> I've never heard that before.
>> I longed for that. I thought that was
when you made it.
>> Outside of wanting to be a father at 8
years old, which is fascinating to me
and something I want I do want to talk
more about because I think that's a lost
uh goal in society unfortunately is at
that age when you sort of in your
adolescent years if ID asked you at the
time what you want to be when you're
older in a professional context, what
what would your answer have been? 15 16
years old.
>> Washington [ __ ] running back.
But coming about 16, as I started to
find out playing football that I was not
the fastest nor the biggest, um, it then
became probably
I don't know if I really want to be
this, but I sure am told I'm a I'm a I'm
really good at debate. I'm a really good debater.
debater.
I would win over arguments with the
family when it would be like where to go
or, you know, if I could go out and why.
I would have a great presentation.
Parents were like, "Geez." And they'd
give us the floor. Go ahead. take the
floor. Let's hear let's let's hear your
argument. And I they'd be like, "Damn."
And so the the word around 15 16 was
like, "You got to go to law school,
buddy. Go to go be a lawyer. Be be the
family of lawyer, man. God dang, man.
You're really good argue. You make great
arguments." And if it's not a great
argument, damn, you got endurance.
You'll just outlast people. And that
became the thing. So I started to enjoy
that. And that's where I was headed
toward towards law school. And I was um
I was reading about your youth exchange
in Australia
and that you'd struggled a little bit in
in class and you were skipping class to
read poems. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> By Lord Byron. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So I just I I had graduated high school
at home in Long View in America. And at
18 I just turned 18. 18 in my family was
freedom. If if you hadn't remember this,
if you hadn't learned it yet, you ain't
going to learn it. 18 was now
no curfew.
You've got it. You've got it. Come on
when you want. Do what you want. D. And
I was rolling. I I straight A's. Mom and
dad are happy. I got a job on the
weekends and after school. I got 45
bucks cash in my pocket every day. I got
a car. It's paid for. I'm dating the
best looking girl at my school. Seeing
the girl at the other school. Oh, I got
to playing golf. I got a four handicap.
I've had two holes and ones. I got no
curfew. Talk about green lights. I'm rolling.
rolling.
I don't know what I want to do when I
get out of high school exactly, but law
school's coming up. But you know what?
My mom goes, "What about Shane student?"
Sweden and Australia were the two. And I
chose Australia cuz said speak English
and maybe El McFersonson's over there.
18-year-old mind, right? Thinking,
right? So boom, I go to Australia.
I was told I was going to be living on
the outskirts of Sydney, which sounded
exciting to me. It was not the it was
the outskirts, but it was three and a
half hours from there. And it was in a
very small town of population 305 people
of Warner Bale. And I remember pulling
up that gravel driveway with that host family.
family.
And when the breaks, they're like,
"Welcome to Australia, mate." I was like,
like,
"All right, not what I thought, but I
can make this work." All of a sudden, I
don't have my car. I ain't got my
girlfriend. I want to go see on the
other side of town. I don't have my golf
clubs. I ain't got money in my pocket.
And I got a 10 p.m. curfew even on
Friday and Saturday night.
I'm going to school again. So, I feel
like I'm going in reverse socially. None
of the friends at the school. They put
me in my junior year over there because
I went mid- semester and they wanted me
to go first half of the year with the
juniors so I could carry on the second
half of my year with what would become
seniors. So, I'm going I feel like I'm
going backwards socially. No one's got a
no one's got a car.
Their interests seem to be different.
The teachers are
not they're I'm I'm failing. They're
giving me Fs and everything. So I start
skipping this class, going to the
library and I find Lord Byron
and I got my Walkman and I remember I
had YouTube's Rattle and Hum on
cassette. I had Maxi Priest. Maxi
Priest, he's got a great Cat Stevens cover
cover and
and
an NXS album which was an Aussie band.
Hutchinson as lead singer and those are
my rotation
especially Rattle and Hum. Rattle and
hum very socially conscious album about
oppression and and and silver and gold
man that's what we're all after. Oh
yeah. You think that's going to get you
to the higher ground? Oh, the evils of
of of you know, capitalism gone wrong
and things like that and freeing Nelson
Mandela and all and I'm worldly things
that Bono and you two were talking
about. We're like, "Oo, making sense to
me. I'm outside of my home. I'm in a
formal little island." You learn, you
know, to have an object first objective
look back at your own life. When you
leave what you know, you find out a lot
about what you actually know. And all of
a sudden, I'm seeing what my life was
as that kid who got the money and I'm
flowing. And I'm start look back going,
I miss that. But I'm also going like,
you're kind of good time rolling,
Charlie. You're you're you're popular.
Everything's going great for you. I
didn't have any resistance in front of
me, which was fine. But boy, now I got a
lot of resistance in front of me. I
don't have my friends to talk to. I got
questions coming up. This family's very
have very awkward relationship with the
family. They even wanted me to call him
uh one night said, "From now on, you'll
uh address us as mum and pup." Which
Which
was a siminal moment because many things
had happened up until that point that
were odd that I was going,
"Okay, that's just a a cultural
difference. That that's you, MCA. Hey,
stay open here. That's a cultural
difference." But I remember the night
they said that and it was the first time
and I needed it. It was 6 months into my
trip. It's the first time I went.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I'm not doing that. It was clear. It's
the first time I had clarity. Remember,
at this time, I'm reading Lord Byron in
the in the in the the the the library.
The principles come to now see me and
go, "Look, doesn't look like school's
going good for you. We have this thing
called work experience. Let's get you a
job. You won't get paid." So, I worked
at the A&Z Bank. I worked at the
barristers's office. I'm taking these
odd jobs as a carpenter and all these
different things. And my home life is
this over in Australia. I am getting
home. We have dinner at 5. We eat from
5:00 to 5:30. I clean the dishes. I am
immediately going back to my room. Take
a bath.
Listen to one of those three album and
cassettes. Read Lord Byron in the bathtub.
bathtub.
Work one out.
Six nights a week this I'm running six
miles a day I've become vegetarian. I'm
eating lettuce freaking lettuce head
with ketchup on it. I'm down to 135
pounds. I'm pretty dog on sure that I my
job is to go to South Africa and I'm
supposed to I'm going to be a monk and
that's that's that's where I'm going.
Now I look back now and I see, oh, I
needed these disciplines to give me a
sense of measurement each day of, oh,
I've got my own thing going here because
my home life, I was lost, man. I'm lost.
I don't have any. I'm writing 16page
letters to myself and I'm returning them
with a 17-page letter.
Socratic letters to myself
about what? existential huge existential
questions mixed in with oh everything is
going great trying to talk myself into
keeping my head up you know what I mean
but I chose in hindsight I was like why
didn't you come home early
and I remember it very clearly when I
said yes I'll go become an exchange
student the ambassador the American
ambassador said sign this contract that
says you won't return till a full year
unless there's a fatal ality in your
family or you're majorly sick. And I
said, I'm not signing that. I'll give
you a handshake on it, man, cuz I'm
going over there for the year. I'm not
pulling the parachute.
And I remember
that handshake. And I remember what my
dad told me about what it happens when
two men shake a hand, that you don't
need a contract, that that is the
contract. And I had a certain honor with
that. There was no way I was coming
home. If I had come home, I'd have felt
like I did my dad wrong. So, while I'm
over in Australia going inside out, imploding,
imploding,
I start to find a little power in the
fact that, oh man, the harder this gets,
the greater the reward there's going to
be on the other side once I get out of
here. Cuz because it was non-negotiable.
I was staying the year. So, I never gave
my mind the the chance to go, well, you
could go home. Uh-uh. That was never on
my my proverbial mental table as a
choice. So I start to get identity off
the strength of making that choice. The
rest of the year became much easier. At
least some of the troubles I was having,
I was laughing at. I wasn't going to the
bathtub at 5:30 doing what I was doing
many years near many times a week, if at
all. All of a sudden, I'm kind of
starting to live a little life and
dancing with it going, "Yeah, man. It's
just not easy." But this is how it is.
We got it. got I'm writing
writing first poems in there that I wrote.
wrote.
>> And then life brings you back to Texas
to study law. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Which um
doesn't end up working out for you
because in your sophomore year you start
questioning yourself. I think based on
this little book.
>> Yep. That book right there is a gift.
>> So you're studying law and you start
questioning yourself because of
something you read in this book.
So, this book between my was the end of
my sophomore year. I'm headed towards
law school going to take my finals.
I was a study bug. I made A's across the board.
board.
And all of a sudden, for the first time
in my life, I go, "Dude, you got this.
You don't need to study this anymore."
And I shut my books. Had never done that
before. And now I got two hours before
my first exam. I look over and there's a
stack of magazines over here. Sports
Illustrated, Playboys, Penthouse. I'm
like, I don't like sports. I like women,
too. Let's check these out. I get them.
I flip through. Nothing. Nothing.
Nothing. After about the seventh
magazine deep, I look down
and this
book is laying there. And this is what's
facing me in this. It was in the middle
of the stack of the magazines. And I
look at I go, "The greatest salesman in
the world." And I said loud. I go,
"Who's that?"
I pick it up.
And I start reading first chapters about
forming good habits and becoming their
slave. And I remember thinking, well, if
you're going to go against yourself and
go to law school, you're just going to
say, "Yeah, I think I'll do it." That's
not that's not a good habit, man. Hey,
that's not a good habit for you. You
might be missing out on something. You
better create a new habit of just doing
what you think you were expected to do.
That was the thinking in my mind. And I
said, "All right, well, I'm going to
I want to go to film school.
I don't want to go to law school. I want
to go to film school
>> simply because the book mentioned that
having the habit of doing something just
because you think you should or can is
>> I even that part I I verbalized that
doesn't even say that directly just
saying I will form good habits and
become their slave and I was like if I
go to law school that's making me a
slave to a bad habit
>> and the bad habit being
>> bad habit being
you be good at it it's kind of what
you're supposed to do. It's all you've
ever kind of thought you were doing.
It's what everyone expects you to do in
the family. But remember, I'm stay
keeping me up at night. Ah, long 20s. I
don't know. I've also got this other
thing. I've got a friend telling me your
short stories are good, man. You can
tell a good story. We film making. You
could tell that sounds fun. Then I go,
my dad's paying for school.
I got to get permission from him first.
So I go, okay, what's a good time to
call him? I remember I planned it out. I
said it was Monday and I said, "I'll
call him now." I said, "No, no, no. He's
at work. Don't call him now at work.
He's he doesn't won't be able to
compartmentalize. This is going to come
out of left field for him. He's in the
middle of pipe sales, right?" I said,
"I'll call him tonight." And said, "No,
no, no. Monday back from work. It's a
stressful day.
Tuesday night, 7:30, second day of the
week, he's into the work week. He'll
have eaten dinner. He's on the couch
having a beer with mom."
Called him at 7:36 p.m. I remember the number.
number.
Hey Pop. Hey, what's up monkey man?
Listen, can I talk about something?
Sure. I said, ' Dad,
I don't want to go to law school
And I'm like, little beat of sweat
starts to go down the back of my neck.
I'm like, here it comes. You want to
what? I thought he was going to go into
all this stuff about my ass. You think
I'm with that? You know, that can be a
hobby, but know that's not a drill job.
I thought all this was coming. And after
about a 5-second pause, he goes, I hear
this. Are you sure that's what you want
to do?
Yes, sir.
Then I hear, "Well,
don't halfass it."
And I remember just beaming, hopping up
"Yes, launchpad, man." And my dad not
only said okay in the way he said don't
half ass. It was also okay. Let's go big
boy. Own that [ __ ] Get some leverage.
Get some horsepower behind where you're
going. Go do it. And I remember to this
day and I've learned this later I think
from becoming a father. Part of what I
believe happened to him and why he said
that to me that way on that call
was the way that I asked him how I just
I wasn't really asking was I don't want
to go to law school dad I want to go to
film school. I didn't stutter. He heard
his son saying this is what I want to
do. And what I think happened to him in
that moment is what I think any father,
any parent loves is you you raise your
kids in a certain way. And you give them
a guideline, a ladder to climb, and
here's the guidelines, and if you do it
this way, you're most likely going to
have some success in life, and it'll
work out for you. And then when we do it
that way, we can be proud parents. But
what do we really want to happen when
our parents when our kids are out of the
house and they're on their own? We kind
of want him to call one day and go, "I'm
breaking out. I'm going my own way. I'm
going my own way." And as a parent, we
go, as much as it may scare us, we're
going, "Yes."
I gave my kid the confidence and the
courage and the foundation to say
they're going to go their own way. And
in a way, I think every parent honors
and loves that moment. And I heard my
dad when he didn't hear me stutter, when
he heard me directly say what I said.
than that. I wasn't really asking him
even though uh I was out of respect
asking him the way I said it. I wasn't
asking him and I think he felt that. And
don't halfass it.
>> Don't halfass it. As a philosophy for
life, how important has that proven to
be since then? Because you've remembered
it and I've heard you
>> reference it as being important. Look,
I've it be it's become quite and again
not it's become more than intellectually
important or more than something I don't
you know I don't need to put it on my
fridge to remind me. Um it has become
important in relationships. It has
become important in work. It has become
important in self-help. It has become
important for my own spirituality. It's
become important for me as a father, as
a husband.
Relationship wise don't have asset.
What's that's turned into me is another
sort of theory I have and I call it own
don't rent. Going with an owner's
mindset into relationships.
Most relationships that we make, hire an
assistant or girlfriend, boyfriend, most
of them don't last the whole life.
But I believe that if you go into those
with the idea that I want it to be a
lifer, if this works out, hopefully this
is forever. Usually they don't end up
being that. But the owner's mentality
will give you that per you and that
person the dignity and the power to go
they we can be everything we can be in
this relationship. And if it doesn't
work out, we say it didn't work out. But
if I'm going with the renters's
mentality, I'll flip it. Yeah, I'll do
this for a few weeks. Yeah. All right.
this. I don't know if this kid's going
to make it. Maybe maybe a couple months.
You're not going to get the most out of
that person.
>> Well, it was like you in Australia, you
went in committed to owning that full
experience and not leaving. And there's
something really people tell me all the
time, especially married people, cuz I
ask them, I say, "What's why do people
get married? Why don't you just, you know,
know,
>> why do you need the contract?" And they
talked to me about how going in with
comm commitment itself
changes how you deal with the
inevitability of the messiness. The
messiness that you saw in your parents'
relationships and the and and challenge
itself like challenge as you saw in
Australia but also in your parents'
marriage is like inbuilt into all things
meaningful. And if you go with that
renter mentality the first red light
you're out you know what you do
something happen you're like oh this is
a sign of things to come.
>> Oh this is only going to get wor. No,
when you get married, you're like,
"We're owning this." Oh, my alarms, the
spider sense, my alarms didn't start
going off because we're going to work
through this. And if it does become a
habit, we'll work through it. Or it's a
one-off and I just got to put up with it
because they like to do what they're
doing more than I don't like them doing
that, which is another good measurement.
You know,
>> I guess it begs the question about the
the role or the benefit of having plan B
is because we're increasingly told to
have plan B in a relationship or plan C,
D, and E. And and in work, a plan C, D,
and E. And >> options,
>> options, >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> can make us a tyrant. Too many options
can make a tyrant of any of us, man.
>> You know what I mean? So can
conveniences, you know what I mean?
>> Yeah. And you when you don't give
yourself that option and mind you
there's plenty of divorces out there
that were necessary and were good for
both of them
problem. But I think there's more divorces
divorces because
because
someone had a little gave themsel the
out had the renters mentality.
First son of smoke I'm going to say
there's fire be easier to get out of
here. Path lease resistance. Sorry. I
think too many people quit. I think
that's that that's more of a problem
than the divorces that are ones that
turned out to be good.
So many people are at that stage in
their life where they're they might have
that bad habit that you described. They
might know that they're in a situation
which isn't for them. Maybe their
parents gave them this idea. Society
pushed them into that position. And uh I
think it's the uncertainty that keeps
them trapped. like the certain misery is
often much more appealing than the uncertainty.
uncertainty. >> Yay.
>> Yay.
>> And I I just want you you managed to to
make that change which is quite rare.
>> Well, what that reminds me of is I
started to become a little cynical which
is different than being skeptical. I
believe it we go from innocence when
we're born to naive to skepticism where
we're discerning and discriminate on
choices. We have judgment.
And then the next one is off the cliff.
what I think is cynicism.
The misery of cynicism is a hell of a
lot easier
than the optimism and belief of skepticism.
skepticism.
Hell of a lot easier. It's a ah easy.
Bam. Put it down. Oh, that's hard. Bam.
I'm out. The individuality.
Bam. No, man. If it's hard, if I sweat,
don't do it. Uh-uh. Bam. Easier to put
him down. Hey, everyone just laughed at
my joke. See, it was easy. I was a life
of the party.
I think less respected once you leave
that situation, but you you you now
you're living in in in doubt and you're
let you're also doubting yourself that I
don't want to work that hard. I don't
want to see if I can make that work
anymore. I don't want to give that
person the benefit of the doubt because
it can be a lot of work and they're
going to [ __ ] screw up and I'm going
to go told you so. Nah. So, let's not
even try it. Or if I do try it, let's
just rent.
Let's do more than just sign that prenup.
You know what I mean? Uh there there's
there's parachute we give oursel the
options in the parachutes in too many
places. We pull it early when we could
still be flying even though maybe rocky
flight. Pull that some [ __ ] Okay. It
was a safe move.
Got down to the ground.
What I was building didn't last.
Sometimes maybe it shouldn't. I think
most of the time it could if you'd have
hung in there, both of you.
>> Before we started recording, we were
having a little bit of a chat about a
thought that's been on my mind recently
about um how independence and I guess an
abundance of choice kind of links to
that might be leading people astray
because the most it appears to me the
most fulfilled people that I know
generally have a lot of dependence. The
culture we live in tells us to like be
our own boss, stand on your own two
feet, more people are lonely than ever,
less friends than ever, less likely to
have kids, less likely to get married.
And it feels like independence. Uh, and
those people often I I think are struggling.
struggling.
I think of so many of my friends, one in
particular that I've mentioned a few
times, who
>> 38 years old, living the life of
independence, like a picture of independence.
independence.
>> Skyrise apartment, single, no kids,
freelancer, so not going to a team,
working from his home. And then, you
know, one of my best friends, 6 months
later, I see him in person, and he's
flown to America, been baptized, and
tells me that for 3 or 4 months, he just
couldn't get out of bed. There was no
meaning in his life. And so now he's a >> interesting,
>> interesting,
>> you know, strongly Christian man. And
we're seeing this, especially with young
men in particular, we're seeing more and
more of them turn to religion.
>> Um, and I'm wondering what's going on there.
there. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
Let's stay on young men for a while. And
this does not exclude young women, but
for the sake of this conversation, I'm
going to block it over here and say
We want and need
to be relied on.
and a sheer independent individual
lifestyle with nothing that you're
responsible for outside of what you only
need. Nothing. No other gardens you have
to tend to career relationally. No other
collective communal.
Who who relies on us?
How much do we need to rely on others?
There's another question and I don't
know that answer. It'd be fun to discuss
it. How much do we need to be how much
do we need to depend on others? I I one
of my self-reliance is at the top of my
value system and I don't think it is
contradictory to faith. I actually think
that free will and faith again are here.
As a believer, I believe that it's all
been written. And at the same time, I
believe God's going, I need your hands
on the wheel, man.
Hey, you're steering this, okay? Don't
just rely on fate. Too many people doing
that, man. I've had my agnostic years
where I was not believer at all fully in
self-reliance. It's on me, everything. And
And
I think it was such a valuable few years
because I did need to call myself on
some [ __ ] I did need to say the buck
stops here with you McConn. I did need
to become a quit becoming such a repeat offender.
offender.
You know, I was sinning which means to
miss the mark. Miss have bad aim
literally where it comes from an archery
term. To sin means to miss the mark.
When you think about it like that
becomes more practical, especially for
us agnostics and stuff. I was missing
the mark and it was time for me. I
didn't want to keep forgiving myself on
Sunday and then repeat and do the same
[ __ ] again Monday, Tuesday, Friday and
then go, "Oh, now I can be forgiven." I
was like, "No, man. Forgive me, father.
I know what I'm doing and I'm keep doing it.
it.
Cut the [ __ ] MCA.
Quit giving yourself that out. that
parachute even though you may have it.
Even though word says grace of God will
forgive you.
Yeah, you need to I needed to strongarm
myself, put my damn hands on the wheel,
look in the mirror and go, it's on you.
Cuz it is. At the same time, when I came
out of that, I was like, "Oh, those two
aren't mutually exclusive." The
self-reliance and belief, I heard God
applauding going, "Thank you. I need
more more like you that go, yes, I'm
responsible. The choices I make today
have to do with where I'll be tomorrow.
Yes, they have consequences. My choices
matter. Thank you. That's what I heard.
But it wasn't exclusive of having faith
and belief again.
>> What caused that period of your life in
your late 20s where you you started to
drift? Because at that time you'd had
your first success. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> As an actor. Um,
>> I think I was living I was g I gave
myself the luxury of living that fully
independent top of the penthouse.
I got money. I decided to go check in at
the Chateau Marmo. I laid down $120,000
tab and said, "Let me know when that's out."
out."
Me and my dog
couple years bought a pair of leather
pants and a motorcycle. I told myself
for the next two years, if you ever
think you've had too many, order another one.
one.
Next two years, you ever go, "Oh, maybe
I exercised it in as healthy way as I
could, but I was sheerely independent.
And I did not I was swimming. I was
transient. It was fun. But when every
day is a Saturday and every night's a
Saturday night, started looking for a little
little
I need to break a sweat here. I need
where's the resistance? Where's my I
need my Monday morning
literally and I need it here and I need
it faith faith-wise.
>> Did the loss of your father around um in
your 20s have a big impact on this sort
of unanchoring?
>> No. The loss of the father
dropped the anchor deeper and got more secure.
secure.
That was 92. That was 5 days into
shooting my first film, Days Confused.
The loss of him
one, which was I didn't think he could
die. Obviously, he could and he did.
And it was uh took my mother to kill him
as you know from the story. They made
love on a Monday morning. He had a heart attack.
attack.
>> That's not a bad way to go. I mean,
>> he called it. He called it. He told me
my brothers, "Boys, when I'm going to
go, when I go, I'm going be making love
to your mother." And damn it if he
didn't do it. But him passing away
after the shock in the morning
really woke me up
to go, "Oh, you don't have that."
Talking about parachutes again. You
don't have that one
being in your life that has your back.
That in my mind was above government,
above religion, everything. Oh, if I'm
really in a pinch, dad's got my back.
You don't have that anymore, Matthew.
So, all the things he taught you that
you kind of been acting like, it's time
to become those and put your ass on the
line. Me. I remember that's around the
time I carved into a tree. In the middle
of the night, I woke up and these words
were just stuck. And I went and I was
like, I be less impressed and more involved.
involved.
And my father passing on, the world got flat.
flat.
Things that I revered. Wow. Mortal
things that I revered, people, places,
all of a sudden my eye got level. Things
that I was patronizing and condescending
and looking down my nose at rose up to
eye level and I was like, "Time to
become a man.
Walk forward. Peripheral vision. Get it.
Own yourself. Walk forward with more
courage and start becoming the man you
want to be instead of acting like it and
putting it off.
>> Be less impressed and more involved.
>> More involved. Yeah.
>> What What did you mean by that and where
did that come from?
>> It came from we grew up hardcore on
gratitude. I'm I'm a very thankful guy
and and being thankful and having
gratitude is very important. But you
can't stop there because too much just
oh I'm so happy to be here. You're so
impressed to be here. Thank you for
having me, which we should have. But if
you live only there, I can't even we
can't be present and be involved in
whatever we're doing and do it as well
as we want to do it. You got to go. No,
thank you for letting me be here and I'm
supposed to be here. Now let's go. If
I'm even talking to you, if I'm here
going, "Man, I'm so happy to be here."
If I'm just happy to be here
and go no further than that, I can't
have we can't have this conversation.
I'm I'm not I'm not I won't be there
yet. I can't be grounded enough to have
have it right here. I'd be like, I'd
anticipate my thoughts. I', you know,
say something that may is only the
pretty stuff and not the ugly stuff or
oh, don't want to be mean. So, to be
involved allowed me to be more honest
and have more courage. When we're
involved, we're more honest and have
more courage to do what we're fashioned
to do how we're fashioned to do it. But
if we're only impressed,
you know, and I've had these moments
when I met the Cohen brothers, they're
my favorite directors.
I revered them. Had dinner with them. I
blew it and I fumbled over my wife. Oh,
damn it. Get back because I was nervous.
I was so happy to be there. I was so
impressed to be sitting down with the
Cohen brothers and not involved enough
to sit there and have a conversation and
I look back that night and I go that's
why they never cast me in anything. I
blew it that night and I've since seen
him and I was like that night we met I
want to do over going brothers if you're
out there I want to do
>> this is really transferable advice to
both me as a podcaster because I get to
meet so many of the people that I've
admired for so long especially being a
kid from the UK but also generally for
people just going to to job interviews
and trying out for things that you
really can inadvertently like lower your
perceived value just by being impressed
and not involved.
>> Probably won't get hired that way either.
either. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> What's what's the hiring person want to see?
see?
someone who's respectful, but if you
hold them re in reverence, they're like,
you know, there's so many ways to say it.
it.
>> I don't need my ass kissed, man. I want
to hear I want to meet you. I want I
don't agree with me on everything. You
know, I want to hear you. Ah ah buck
back. And they had a reason behind it.
They weren't, you know, being negative
for or cynical or they weren't just
trying to be contrarian for contrary
reason. They actually had thought about
that and it was challenging. Huh. Think
that in relationships, girls, guys, what
do we like? Not the one that's like,
"Yeah, whatever you want to do." Want
someone goes like, "Oh, how about this?
I got this other idea." Oh.
Oh, interesting. He just reminded me of
a guy interviewed the other day called
Jonah. And Jonah, at the very end of the
call, young guy turned around to me and
said, "You know, by the way, I think you
should completely change this particular
company he was going to be joining of
mine. Completely changed the branding. I
don't think it's good enough." And I
paused and I said to him, I'll never
forget what I said. I said, I want to
say two things to you, Jonah. First, I
jokingly went, how dare you? And
secondly, that is the best thing you
have said in the last hour. Because for
me, he he did exactly what you did. He
wasn't impressed. He was involved. And
he challenged he told me to that
basically our entire brand for this
particular company needed to be changed
and redone. So like, how dare you? And
that is the best thing you have said
>> cuz it did exactly what you said. It
made me think, oh, okay, interesting.
This is who he is and he's of value.
>> Yay. Because people that are impressed
are much less value than those that are
able to, you know,
>> picture here. I mean, this picture said
a lot to me. Maybe it's just the the way
that you're all gathered around.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> And this picture. So, that's my oldest
brother, Rooster on the right. That's
Pat Rooster's 10-year-old birthday
present, adopted. Went to go meet his
parents one time when he was 17. Check
his dad's hairline.
Um, that's me.
reverentially looking down on my father
who's holding court at the bar in the
house, Quail Valley, Houston, Texas.
Looks like he just got off the golf
course. Uh I have a t-shirt on. They
have golf shirts on. Looks like I didn't
play with them at that time, but there
were stories probably going on right
there about something that they had just
experienced. And I'm probably a little
I'm trying to, you know, I'm I'm
probably this conversation is probably
more between those two. And I'm going
like, "Oh, I wish I was there in the
stories." Which only happened for me
once I turned 18. I had some stories
before then, but that's what that look
at the reverence with which I'm
>> looking on
to my dad and he was old he was holding
court. He was a ham man. Him and him and
Rooster were were best friends. Um Pat
worked for him. I've got to have a
couple years with him before I went to
uh um Australia,
Australia,
a year with him. I know I had I remember
I had more than a full had a full summer
with him, which later on I found out
was their second divorce. I didn't know
it was I thought mom was on an extended
vacation in Florida.
So, he and I had a summer where we got
to hang out. And I got a story in green
lights about a night when I jumped the bouncer.
bouncer.
A big right of passage to me.
>> Do you miss him?
>> Yeah, I miss him
creatively the most because he he I
found out later and I didn't know he was
doing this. Like I found out later in
life, years after he passed away, we
found all these old paintings in the
garage and we found this pottery that he
made and he loved he had collected art
and he loved charcoal paintings in
pencil black and white. I had no idea
he practiced art or or liked it. And so
when I'm reading a script or I'm
interested in doing a film, I still
think ah I would love to sh I would love
to have sent this to dad and go, "What
do you think?" and talked about, "Hey,
you know anybody like this? What do you
think of this character? What do you
think of the scenario? Hey, you know any
men like this?" Cuz I base a lot of my
characters off of people that I met
through him. I a whole lot There's been
many characters that are based on parts
of my brother Pat who was my hero
growing up. And there's a lot of
characters I've met through my older
brother Rooster, but all those came
through dad.
And I would love I miss having those. I
wish I could have those conversations
with him. I He would have loved the
other night we're at Toronto Film
Festival Premier and Lost Bus. My mom
was in it. She's 93. My little my son's
in it.
That could have been
He would have come to Santa Fe with mom,
you know. He didn't. Mom wanted Mom
wants to be on the stage. Mom, every
performance I've ever done, she's like,
"You did great, Matthew. I see where you
get it from." Right. Dad didn't want to
be on the stage. He could take the
stage, but he would have he would have
seen from the beginning me doing my
thing from the front row and been like,
"There you go, buddy."
So I miss him as a creative partner and
in sharing the declarations when you
have a red carpet and and hearing what's
your opinion on that. Hey watching
I miss that. um
in his hands, man. He had these healing
hands and we would have been buddies by
now, right? I would have
philosophically wherever we had our
differences, he would have enjoyed the
debates instead of looking at me at 16
going, "Who the hell do you think you are
are talking
talking
bucking like that?" Which is what led
him to go, "You're a great debater. I
want to be the family lawyer." But we'd
have been buddies because at 18 was the
freedom right of passage. That's when he
goes, "You ain't learned it by now, you
ain't gonna learn it." So we would have
I wouldn't have had to hear. This is a
time when I'm still hearing about the
experiences of yesterday and last night,
yearning to one day be able to be there
and be part of the stories. And we did
get a year together where we got to be
part of the same stories, which meant so
much to me. But I would have had years
of that. Do you think he would have been
surprised by the life you've lived subsequently?
>> No.
My family's got a got an odd thing.
They aren't surprised by [ __ ] man.
I mean, my brothers hadn't even
If I invited them to the premiere in
Toronto the other night, they'd have
found every excuse they could not to go
and wouldn't have come.
They don't disrespect or love me any
less for it's just like, man, we know
you little brother.
>> There's something beautiful in that.
>> Do you remember these? >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> You wrote this roughly around the same
time in '92. Roughly actually when I was
born, funnily enough, I saw the date on
the top and thought, "Oh, that's a few
days off after my birthday."
>> Ah. And again, you put fatherhood number
one, but there's a a series of other
things on this list of your 10 goals in
life. Yeah. Which you wrote in 1992.
>> As you reflect on those goals, do you
wish you hadn't written any of them? And
is there anything else you wish you had written?
written?
>> No. That that that I wouldn't change a
thing about it.
>> 10 goals in life. Become a father. Find
and keep a woman for me. Keep my
relationship with God. Chase my best
self. Be an egotistical utilitarian.
>> Take more risks. Stay close to mom and
family. Win an Oscar for best actor.
Look back and enjoy the view. Just keep living.
living.
>> I don't know what I'd add to that.
>> One of the things that you talk you've
talked a few times about is this idea of
like you needing resistance. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> You've said it two or three times and
going back to what it is to be a man and
what it is to be a well orientated,
stable man.
>> Needing resistance.
Is that a goal to aim for? is that
>> I think it's just a necessary necessity for
having more than just an individual life
life
the top of the high-rise with money if
that's if you're successful to do that.
I mean I'm supposing that in whether
it's different words your friend went to
Christianity for this for a very similar reason.
reason.
>> Yeah. It's like certain amount of guilt
is very healthy. It helps us keeps us.
It's boundaries. >> Boundaries
>> Boundaries
>> without any shame, without any
embarrassment, without any guilt. Tell
me it's all just four-dimensional.
Where's the form?
Where's the Where's the art? It's It's
four-dimensional. It has no form. You
got to have gravity to have form. You
got to have some resistance to have some
form. You got to push off of something
to go somewhere. You got to be It's very
hard when you're just floating and no
gravity and no resistance to actually
pursue a north star. You have no leverage.
leverage.
>> You're floating. Where's the art?
Probably more anarchy than art. So
resistance gives form.
Heard a great artist say this. Limitations
resistance, something to go or else it's
like green lights. If life's just
nothing but green lights, if you got no
yellows and reds, no reasons to pause or
crisises that stop you, resistance,
what do you just go in circles? Do you
I don't see that. How do we evolve
or devolve
without resistance? Now, picking the
right resistance
is is an art in itself. It's
challenging. I've been clumsy with it in
my life. When especially when I got
famous and got success and enough people
telling me I love you and the caviar and
the champagne, I was like, "What the
[ __ ] Why me? I don't deserve any of
this. What? I I' I'd [ __ ] things up on
purpose just to say like I'd trip myself
running downhill so I could bloody my
own nose and go, "Ah, now I can feel."
Okay. Okay, now my heels are on the
ground. I need It's clumsy.
So, I don't think we need the kind of
resistance that we create that
can harm us or get in our way for
getting in our way sake because I've
come to learn and I think we all are.
No, when things are going really well,
resistance is gonna come. If you stay if
you stay with if you're if you have any
ambition, resistance is going to come.
We often see resistance as a form of
failure and something that we should
endeavor to avoid. You think about the
avoidance of like people building
families or even,
you know, many people consider that
we're living in a bit of a comfort
crisis. This is slightly a different
sort of analogy but most of the diseases
that we have today whether they're
diseases of I don't know the mind like
you know people feeling lonely and
isolated or physical diseases 80% of
Americans getting back pain but no one
in the had a tribe in Africa getting
back pain they're all a consequence of
us continually choosing comfort >> y
>> y
>> which is a short-term friend but
long-term enemy and resistance I think
is um
is something increasingly we can choose
opt out of
>> it's a choice too I Can I hit a little
point that's on this subject?
>> It's called tips included. And I wrote
this based on participation trophies. Uh
um entitlement. How too much of
something can be just as harmful is not
enough. Uh how we all need good fortune,
good fate, and charity sometimes. But we
shouldn't rely on that.
Okay. Called tips included. All right.
When extra credit's included, credit
doesn't get as due. When more gives us
less, the exchange rates gone a skew.
When amnesty is offered going into the
crime, we're more bound to commit it
because there is no fine. We start
playing to tie instead of going for the
win. When participation is the trophy
for every cow in the pin.
If I stay on the porch because you
picked up the slack. When you look over
your shoulder, I I can't have your back.
If there is no curfew, we're going to
stay out all night. No tab at our bar.
We're going to get drunk and start a
fight. All these long lenses got us
losing our sight. You keep lifting it
for me, I'm going to lose all my might.
When a four-star duty suits a six-star rate, we take our hands off the wheel
rate, we take our hands off the wheel and rely on fate. Eating all we can at
and rely on fate. Eating all we can at the all we can eat buffet gives us a 3.8
the all we can eat buffet gives us a 3.8 education and a 4.2 GPA.
education and a 4.2 GPA. We steal from ourselves and get away
We steal from ourselves and get away with the scam. What's the measure of
with the scam. What's the measure of merit with less give a damn? Hm. These
merit with less give a damn? Hm. These unlimited options sure have me confused.
unlimited options sure have me confused. While all the conveniences are keeping
While all the conveniences are keeping me properly lubed
me properly lubed in this red light district with the
in this red light district with the [ __ ] of inflation, the ROI's math don't
[ __ ] of inflation, the ROI's math don't pay for vacation. So, let's just admit
pay for vacation. So, let's just admit it. This extra credit is quite a fluffer
it. This extra credit is quite a fluffer because when the tips included, the
because when the tips included, the service will suffer.
service will suffer. >> That's so good.
>> That's so good. But it's about that the conveniences,
But it's about that the conveniences, the long lenses, everything's like, "Oh,
the long lenses, everything's like, "Oh, and and we we've outconvenienced
and and we we've outconvenienced oursel." What's AI going to do to us?
oursel." What's AI going to do to us? Talk about convenience. How much, and I
Talk about convenience. How much, and I want to keep hearing studies. I wonder
want to keep hearing studies. I wonder if you have an opinion on this. How much
if you have an opinion on this. How much of you coming up with an idea and then
of you coming up with an idea and then writing and rewriting it, thinking about
writing and rewriting it, thinking about it, no, no, no, no. That's not ex Oh,
it, no, no, no, no. That's not ex Oh, no. This is what I really mean and how
no. This is what I really mean and how to get. How much of that is really
to get. How much of that is really valuable to get it beyond just an
valuable to get it beyond just an intellectual idea? More valuable than
intellectual idea? More valuable than just going,
just going, "Ah, there it is." Cuz what comes out of
"Ah, there it is." Cuz what comes out of it? Incredibly impressive.
it? Incredibly impressive. My hunch is that yeah, we can use it for
My hunch is that yeah, we can use it for like uh signpost to help us. Oh, that's
like uh signpost to help us. Oh, that's good or that help. Thank you for helping
good or that help. Thank you for helping me organize. But there's a value to us
me organize. But there's a value to us going through the sweat equity of
going through the sweat equity of learning something.
learning something. How you how do you feel about it?
How you how do you feel about it? >> I mean ex exactly what you've said but
>> I mean ex exactly what you've said but the the studies have just that have just
the the studies have just that have just come out using different things like
come out using different things like chatbt have actually proven what you've
chatbt have actually proven what you've just said to be true that when people
just said to be true that when people use AI to produce a piece of work not
use AI to produce a piece of work not only can't they recall what they've made
only can't they recall what they've made but they also start speaking in language
but they also start speaking in language more like the AI. So they start to lose
more like the AI. So they start to lose their own voice. But I mean yeah I mean
their own voice. But I mean yeah I mean for through history people like Richard
for through history people like Richard Fryman the physicist has said the best
Fryman the physicist has said the best way to learn something is to learn it
way to learn something is to learn it and then to go through the pain of
and then to go through the pain of writing it condensing it down to a
writing it condensing it down to a simple truth like you do so often in
simple truth like you do so often in your new book poems and prayers and then
your new book poems and prayers and then sharing it with the world
sharing it with the world >> and then getting the feedback and if if
>> and then getting the feedback and if if the world understood it like you meant
the world understood it like you meant it like that poem you just shared you
it like that poem you just shared you you you understand it that's evidence
you you understand it that's evidence that you get it
that you get it >> right. So I think AI is going to be
>> right. So I think AI is going to be great for me saying something to you but
great for me saying something to you but not learning something myself. And I
not learning something myself. And I think if you know if you want to defend
think if you know if you want to defend creativity and innovation and the
creativity and innovation and the ability to think, you actually have a
ability to think, you actually have a huge opportunity which is to go left
huge opportunity which is to go left when everyone's going right.
when everyone's going right. >> Right.
>> Right. >> And it goes to what you were saying
>> And it goes to what you were saying there. You were talking about be careful
there. You were talking about be careful when you mess mess with incentives. Like
when you mess mess with incentives. Like be careful when you choose the easier
be careful when you choose the easier road. Be careful of the unintended
road. Be careful of the unintended consequences. And AI is a prime example
consequences. And AI is a prime example of an unintended consequence of you
of an unintended consequence of you taking the easier road today.
taking the easier road today. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And you know, I just actually made a
>> And you know, I just actually made a video about this, funnily enough, just
video about this, funnily enough, just just warning my audience about
just warning my audience about >> when something appears to be like a
>> when something appears to be like a short-term friend, it's usually a
short-term friend, it's usually a long-term enemy.
long-term enemy. >> Like when you know, when you choose easy
>> Like when you know, when you choose easy today, you choose hard tomorrow. And
today, you choose hard tomorrow. And >> there's always a trade-off,
>> there's always a trade-off, >> right?
>> right? Do you think if you choose hard today,
Do you think if you choose hard today, you usually get easy tomorrow?
>> I mean, there's a there's obviously a ton of nuance to this, but um
in many contexts, yes. So, for example, my think of I was thinking of my father.
my think of I was thinking of my father. My father would never have he would
My father would never have he would avoid conflict at all costs. He would
avoid conflict at all costs. He would avoid the difficult conversation.
avoid the difficult conversation. And when I zoom out over the the decades
And when I zoom out over the the decades of his life and marriage, I go, "Man,
of his life and marriage, I go, "Man, that cost you big time."
that cost you big time." >> You caught up with him.
>> You caught up with him. >> Oh my god.
>> Oh my god. >> And me inverting that in my own life and
>> And me inverting that in my own life and continually just confronting it head on
continually just confronting it head on has had the complete opposite effect.
has had the complete opposite effect. You never,
You never, >> you know, like when you were talking
>> you know, like when you were talking about being a young man and making that
about being a young man and making that decision cuz you had that voice in your
decision cuz you had that voice in your head saying, "Law might not be my thing
head saying, "Law might not be my thing and you made that phone call to your
and you made that phone call to your father."
father." >> Yeah. Like what what I hear you did is
>> Yeah. Like what what I hear you did is like you realigned yourself to you. Now
like you realigned yourself to you. Now if you hadn't made that call and you let
if you hadn't made that call and you let a couple more of those bad habits, you
a couple more of those bad habits, you would have got to 40 and been like, "Who
would have got to 40 and been like, "Who the [ __ ] is this guy? What is this
the [ __ ] is this guy? What is this life?" You would have looked around and
life?" You would have looked around and said, "Who is she? Who are they? What is
said, "Who is she? Who are they? What is this job?"
this job?" >> Right?
>> Right? >> And that's that course correction
>> And that's that course correction >> that I think requires you to do this the
>> that I think requires you to do this the slightly harder thing today. What do you
slightly harder thing today. What do you think?
think? >> I agree with you. That's the That's the
>> I agree with you. That's the That's the resistance that you're choosing. You
resistance that you're choosing. You know, look,
know, look, I still got to learn how to take a
I still got to learn how to take a vacation
vacation because, you know, we there's sometimes
because, you know, we there's sometimes when the wind's at our back
when the wind's at our back and we've earned it.
and we've earned it. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> There's sometimes when it's easy street
>> There's sometimes when it's easy street and it's like, "Yeah, don't interrupt
and it's like, "Yeah, don't interrupt this, man. This is a sweet ass song.
this, man. This is a sweet ass song. Trust that the hill's coming again.
Trust that the hill's coming again. Don't be so impressed with this and
Don't be so impressed with this and don't what I have to do is don't fall
don't what I have to do is don't fall into when things are going really well.
into when things are going really well. I go, "Ah, there it is. That's the
I go, "Ah, there it is. That's the main."
main." No, it's not. Not with any ambition.
No, it's not. Not with any ambition. It's not. Or not with life happening.
It's not. Or not with life happening. It's not. But my hunch, I want to see
It's not. But my hunch, I want to see what you think about this theory is
rather you shoot for an A and make a C. It's rather better than shooting for a C
It's rather better than shooting for a C and making an F
and making an F now. So go for perfection.
now. So go for perfection. Reality always comes in under it.
Reality always comes in under it. But in that moment when you see the
But in that moment when you see the inevitable reality, the outcome, the
inevitable reality, the outcome, the result, how quickly can we go,
result, how quickly can we go, okay, but
okay, but I got so much more out of it, the job,
I got so much more out of it, the job, the person, myself, because I went per
the person, myself, because I went per for perfection
for perfection than if I'd have just gone for no dude,
than if I'd have just gone for no dude, just I mean, you know, just pass class.
just I mean, you know, just pass class. It's again that little that owner's
It's again that little that owner's renters mentality. Mhm.
renters mentality. Mhm. >> And but what can be hard for me
>> And but what can be hard for me sometimes is
sometimes is >> it takes can take me too long to to to
>> it takes can take me too long to to to come down from when oh it didn't hit
come down from when oh it didn't hit perfection and maybe it takes me a week
perfection and maybe it takes me a week to go dude now do you finally realize
to go dude now do you finally realize that of course you weren't going to get
that of course you weren't going to get perfection but you got so much more out
perfection but you got so much more out of it because you went for perfection.
of it because you went for perfection. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> So be pleased with reality because you
>> So be pleased with reality because you got a you got a good grade on it man.
got a you got a good grade on it man. That war that was that was good. that
That war that was that was good. that piece of art was wouldn't have been that
piece of art was wouldn't have been that true if you wouldn't have been I don't
true if you wouldn't have been I don't like I say this all the time and I never
like I say this all the time and I never mean this in a in a in a in a
mean this in a in a in a in a disrespectful way. I've never done a
disrespectful way. I've never done a movie or a performance that lived up to
movie or a performance that lived up to what I thought it could be cuz I'm
what I thought it could be cuz I'm thinking it can be divine
comes out maybe majorly inspiring may speak to masses
even have some magic to it but only it's divine
divine >> that's resist that's tension
>> that's resist that's tension that
that >> yeah unclosed gap. And I think I think
>> yeah unclosed gap. And I think I think everything that's ever been built that's
everything that's ever been built that's great or creatively brilliant has come
great or creatively brilliant has come from someone who has a big a big
from someone who has a big a big expectation gap. And of course the very
expectation gap. And of course the very definition of that, you're never going
definition of that, you're never going to close it. And actually the probably
to close it. And actually the probably the reason you then are motivated to
the reason you then are motivated to move to the next thing and pursue divine
move to the next thing and pursue divine again is because it wasn't divine last
again is because it wasn't divine last time. Maybe there's still something left
time. Maybe there's still something left on the table and that's
on the table and that's >> means you never arrive,
>> means you never arrive, >> right?
>> right? >> You talk about arrival a lot in the
>> You talk about arrival a lot in the poems and prayers as well.
poems and prayers as well. I I also was reflecting on your mother's
I I also was reflecting on your mother's words where she at a very young age to
words where she at a very young age to you positioned life as a dichotomy of
you positioned life as a dichotomy of being humble but like know that you're
being humble but like know that you're the [ __ ] and all those things you went
the [ __ ] and all those things you went through and it's the same thing. It's
through and it's the same thing. It's like strive for protect protection
like strive for protect protection perfection but also know that nothing
perfection but also know that nothing will ever get there and can you can you
will ever get there and can you can you be okay with that dissonance
be okay with that dissonance >> right and that and there's a moment and
>> right and that and there's a moment and it's I think it's where the one of the
it's I think it's where the one of the arts of living is if you if you are
arts of living is if you if you are going to prescribe to go shoot for
going to prescribe to go shoot for perfection there's that moment when
perfection there's that moment when reality comes in when you had to declare
reality comes in when you had to declare and the cards speak for themselves and
and the cards speak for themselves and it's under
it's under but you because you oversaw It
but you because you oversaw It theory I got called oversee because you
theory I got called oversee because you oversee and expect the best this this
oversee and expect the best this this divinity out of people and and art and
divinity out of people and and art and of yourself and then it always comes in
of yourself and then it always comes in under. How quickly can you go ah
under. How quickly can you go ah nice reality?
nice reality? I've watched so many entrepreneurs treat
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get a 30-day free trial. Can I ask you a question about that
Can I ask you a question about that then? If you had aimed for something to
then? If you had aimed for something to be perfect and then it delivered itself
be perfect and then it delivered itself as perfect exactly how you had imagined
as perfect exactly how you had imagined if if if at all possible,
if if if at all possible, would that have made you happy? Would
would that have made you happy? Would you have been
you have been >> I don't know.
>> I don't know. >> You're right. Um
>> You're right. Um would it have made you scared?
would it have made you scared? >> Both probably because look, I've had
>> Both probably because look, I've had moments. Let me let me let me tell you
moments. Let me let me let me tell you one. uh in in in Africa. I'm in Mali,
one. uh in in in Africa. I'm in Mali, Africa,
dogone country. Me and my guy who's a buddy now, Issa. We're hiking from
buddy now, Issa. We're hiking from village to village in the Banjiagara.
village to village in the Banjiagara. Each village is 10 to 15 miles away. I
Each village is 10 to 15 miles away. I went over there needing my anonymity
went over there needing my anonymity under the name of David. And I said I
under the name of David. And I said I was a writer and a boxer. Well, they
was a writer and a boxer. Well, they called me Da. Anyway, I uh um they
called me Da. Anyway, I uh um they didn't give a damn about the writing
didn't give a damn about the writing part, but they were very interested in
part, but they were very interested in the wrestling part. So each village I
the wrestling part. So each village I would go to start to catch up to me.
would go to start to catch up to me. Strong white men named Dota. You want
Strong white men named Dota. You want to? And they love to wrestle over there.
to? And they love to wrestle over there. They love to wrestle. It's kind of a
They love to wrestle. It's kind of a form of entertainment. The boys just
form of entertainment. The boys just walk up and start wrestling. I get to
walk up and start wrestling. I get to this one uh village one night. Benji
this one uh village one night. Benji Matu
Matu and uh I'm laying there. It's 14 mile
and uh I'm laying there. It's 14 mile hike to get there. I'm laying on the
hike to get there. I'm laying on the ground stretch and the village is all
ground stretch and the village is all kind of come up around and they're
kind of come up around and they're talking and chattering. And all of a
talking and chattering. And all of a sudden I hear this chatter and that's
sudden I hear this chatter and that's sort of at me. I can just hear it. And I
sort of at me. I can just hear it. And I look up and it's these two boys. They're
look up and it's these two boys. They're about 18 and they're boom boom boom
about 18 and they're boom boom boom popping at me and I can be like and I
popping at me and I can be like and I know enough in the tone I don't know
know enough in the tone I don't know what they're saying because they're
what they're saying because they're speaking in bombat. I'm like are they
speaking in bombat. I'm like are they talking to me? And he goes yes. He goes
talking to me? And he goes yes. He goes they uh uh
they uh uh they are the wrestlers of the village.
they are the wrestlers of the village. They say they are the best wrestlers in
They say they are the best wrestlers in the village and they are challenging you
the village and they are challenging you to wrestling match. I was like oh they
to wrestling match. I was like oh they are. I was like
are. I was like well they sure are talking a lot. I go I
well they sure are talking a lot. I go I don't know if they mean it. Do y do
don't know if they mean it. Do y do y'all have this thing over here? We have
y'all have this thing over here? We have a thing in America where if someone
a thing in America where if someone talks too much, they really don't. Man,
talks too much, they really don't. Man, he goes, "Yes, we have this. We have
he goes, "Yes, we have this. We have this." And just as that happens, you
this." And just as that happens, you hear the crowd scream. And I look up and
hear the crowd scream. And I look up and the two boys bam run off. Why?
the two boys bam run off. Why? Because the real champion wrestler of
Because the real champion wrestler of the village, Michelle,
the village, Michelle, 5' n, tree trunk legs, about 220, burlap
5' n, tree trunk legs, about 220, burlap bag wrapped with a rope around his
bag wrapped with a rope around his waist. He showed up. He doesn't say a
waist. He showed up. He doesn't say a word. He just stands over me, points to
word. He just stands over me, points to me, points to himself, and points over
me, points to himself, and points over here. I look over where he's pointing,
here. I look over where he's pointing, and there's a big dirt pit.
and there's a big dirt pit. My heart starts racing. There's the
My heart starts racing. There's the challenge. As my heart's beating going,
challenge. As my heart's beating going, "Oh no." I start to get up because as
"Oh no." I start to get up because as this ear saying, "Oh no," I'm hearing in
this ear saying, "Oh no," I'm hearing in this ear, "If you don't, you will regret
this ear, "If you don't, you will regret this for the rest of your life. You've
this for the rest of your life. You've got to go do it. This will at least be a
got to go do it. This will at least be a great story to tell."
great story to tell." So, I get up. Village goes crazy. About
So, I get up. Village goes crazy. About 80 people have gathered now. The chief
80 people have gathered now. The chief comes out. I'm standing in the middle of
comes out. I'm standing in the middle of the pit going, "I'm not sure how this is
the pit going, "I'm not sure how this is supposed to go. What are the rules?"
supposed to go. What are the rules?" Chief puts his hands on our heads.
Chief puts his hands on our heads. Michelle grabs me by the waist, mimics
Michelle grabs me by the waist, mimics to me. I grab him by the waist. Then he
to me. I grab him by the waist. Then he burrows his forehead down into my
burrows his forehead down into my clavicle here, and I burrow mine into
clavicle here, and I burrow mine into his. So, now we're like two bulls like
his. So, now we're like two bulls like this. And the chief puts his hands on
this. And the chief puts his hands on our head and then raises him and goes,
our head and then raises him and goes, "Tot." And the crowd goes wild.
"Tot." And the crowd goes wild. Ding ding is what? stop men. So, we
Ding ding is what? stop men. So, we start going around, man. And I'm
start going around, man. And I'm thinking, okay, I got I get some
thinking, okay, I got I get some leverage on this guy. Legs are like tree
leverage on this guy. Legs are like tree trunks. I'm like, "Oh, I ain't getting
trunks. I'm like, "Oh, I ain't getting him down low." So, we're scrappling,
him down low." So, we're scrappling, grab him. Boom. I get him over. Bam.
grab him. Boom. I get him over. Bam. Flip him on his back. He flips me back
Flip him on his back. He flips me back over. I backflip him off my back at
over. I backflip him off my back at some. He comes in, gets me in a freaking
some. He comes in, gets me in a freaking leg lock that I can barely breathe. I'm
leg lock that I can barely breathe. I'm almost got to tap out from. I shimmy out
almost got to tap out from. I shimmy out of that thing. All of a sudden, Chief
of that thing. All of a sudden, Chief comes in, separates us.
comes in, separates us. I'm hyperventilating, man. Crowd's going
I'm hyperventilating, man. Crowd's going crazy. He's got a split. Michelle on
crazy. He's got a split. Michelle on this side, me on this side. I had these
this side, me on this side. I had these talismans that were in my beard. They
talismans that were in my beard. They got two of them got torn out during the
got two of them got torn out during the wrestle match. I got blood running down
wrestle match. I got blood running down me here. My knees are bleeding. My
me here. My knees are bleeding. My ankles are bleeding. I'm
ankles are bleeding. I'm hyperventilating and covered in sweat.
hyperventilating and covered in sweat. I look over at Michelle who's just
I look over at Michelle who's just staring at me going
staring at me going barely a glisten on him. And that's when
barely a glisten on him. And that's when the chief goes and I go, "Oh [ __ ] here
the chief goes and I go, "Oh [ __ ] here we go." Boom, boom, boom. Grabs my
we go." Boom, boom, boom. Grabs my waist. Bop bop. Burls his head. I burl
waist. Bop bop. Burls his head. I burl my head. We're off. Goes around again.
my head. We're off. Goes around again. Pretty damn good match. Strong. I
Pretty damn good match. Strong. I flipped him. Me, pin me. I We got up,
flipped him. Me, pin me. I We got up, got moving. All of a sudden, Chief comes
got moving. All of a sudden, Chief comes in, separates us. Raises both our hands.
in, separates us. Raises both our hands. The crowd goes crazy. As soon as he
The crowd goes crazy. As soon as he loses our hands, Michelle runs off.
loses our hands, Michelle runs off. Everyone sees him go. And they come in
Everyone sees him go. And they come in and grab me and put Finny on their
and grab me and put Finny on their shoulders. Da da d d d d d d d d d d d d
shoulders. Da da d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d
d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d
d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d
d d d d d d d d d I go over now I'm a big man in the
I go over now I'm a big man in the village which means they give me the
village which means they give me the best chair that has the least broken
best chair that has the least broken sort of you know uh uh um straw on the
sort of you know uh uh um straw on the seat which means the village boy finds
seat which means the village boy finds me the biggest chicken and plucks it and
me the biggest chicken and plucks it and they cook it for dinner for me which
they cook it for dinner for me which means they take me to the cleanest spot
means they take me to the cleanest spot in the river and I come back that night
in the river and I come back that night we eat I get on the roof of the hut what
we eat I get on the roof of the hut what a magical day
a magical day I lay back.
I see the Southern Cross for the first time in the sky. Like it was in neon
time in the sky. Like it was in neon lights on a black backdrop. It was you
lights on a black backdrop. It was you couldn't not see it. It was so bright.
couldn't not see it. It was so bright. Stare me right in the face. I laid there
Stare me right in the face. I laid there 30 minutes saw 29 shooting stars.
30 minutes saw 29 shooting stars. I'm going,
I'm going, I might have a direct line.
I might have a direct line. I might be the chosen one.
I might be the chosen one. Wow.
Wow. Just as I'm about to shut my eyes, I got
Just as I'm about to shut my eyes, I got a little in my throat. So, I sit up,
go to spit out over the off into the off the top of the roof.
Lugie plastered to my face. I forgot I had put my mosquito net on.
And I was like, "Oh, perfect." Just when I was thinking, "I might have the direct
I was thinking, "I might have the direct line." I just spit a lugie in my own
line." I just spit a lugie in my own face. And there became the humor. Now,
face. And there became the humor. Now, to finish off that story, the next
to finish off that story, the next morning when I left the village,
morning when I left the village, remember Michelle, who ran away.
remember Michelle, who ran away. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> I got to the edge of the village about
>> I got to the edge of the village about to make the 14-mi walk to the next
to make the 14-mi walk to the next village. And there, behind the first
village. And there, behind the first tree, passed off the property, popped
tree, passed off the property, popped out Michelle.
out Michelle. Not a word. looked at me, bowed, grabbed
Not a word. looked at me, bowed, grabbed my hand. He walked me the 14 miles to
my hand. He walked me the 14 miles to the next village, got to the village
the next village, got to the village border, the next tribe, and walked home.
border, the next tribe, and walked home. I went back unannounced six years later,
I went back unannounced six years later, did the same trip, ran into the same
did the same trip, ran into the same people, the kids had grown six years
people, the kids had grown six years old, everybody. We get to Benji Matu.
old, everybody. We get to Benji Matu. There's Michelle. He's had five kids and
There's Michelle. He's had five kids and he broke his hip, so he's got a limp,
he broke his hip, so he's got a limp, right?
right? So, we all agree not another wrestling
So, we all agree not another wrestling match.
match. We have a great dinner that night. We
We have a great dinner that night. We talk. We tell stories. They're speaking
talk. We tell stories. They're speaking bombat. I'm speaking English, but we're
bombat. I'm speaking English, but we're just understanding each other's sort of
just understanding each other's sort of charades now.
charades now. Get up the next morning. We go to leave.
Get up the next morning. We go to leave. Find that same tree.
Find that same tree. Out pops Michelle,
Out pops Michelle, bows, reaches out his hand, holds my
bows, reaches out his hand, holds my hand, and 14 miles
to the next village. Stop house. Turn around.
I asked Isa back then the first time in 99 after that night when I wrestled
99 after that night when I wrestled Michelle and he walked me the first time
Michelle and he walked me the first time and I got there. I was like, "What? Tell
and I got there. I was like, "What? Tell me about what happened last night. I do
me about what happened last night. I do all right." He goes, "Oh, no, no, no.
all right." He goes, "Oh, no, no, no. You do very well." He said,
You do very well." He said, When you accept the challenge, that is
When you accept the challenge, that is when you were big men in this tribe. It
when you were big men in this tribe. It was not about the win or the lose.
was not about the win or the lose. You accept the challenge and then you
You accept the challenge and then you wrestle Michelle who's not only champion
wrestle Michelle who's not only champion of this village but of this village and
of this village but of this village and tree village back and you handle
tree village back and you handle Michelle. Handled was the word. No one
Michelle. Handled was the word. No one wants handled. He goes,
wants handled. He goes, "You come back,
"You come back, we make money."
Yeah. That's what he told me. Then I went back six years later and had that
went back six years later and had that experience. And that experience
experience. And that experience with Michelle, the respect we had for
with Michelle, the respect we had for each other. He walked me broken hip and
each other. He walked me broken hip and all the 14 miles to the next village.
all the 14 miles to the next village. >> You accept the challenge.
>> You accept the challenge. >> You accept the challenge. That is when
>> You accept the challenge. That is when you were a big man in this village cuz I
you were a big man in this village cuz I was like they put me on the shoulders
was like they put me on the shoulders man. What was it? He was like oh you
man. What was it? He was like oh you were a big man when you accept the
were a big man when you accept the challenge. He said he said whole village
challenge. He said he said whole village think Michelle going to have strong
think Michelle going to have strong white men named Da on back in 10 seconds
white men named Da on back in 10 seconds over.
over. But you handle Michelle not win or lose
But you handle Michelle not win or lose handled.
handled. But you were big man when you accepted
But you were big man when you accepted challenge.
challenge. Beautiful.
Beautiful. And then he's there six years later and
And then he's there six years later and walks me the same way. I mean, I think
walks me the same way. I mean, I think your question was on, you know, when we
your question was on, you know, when we when we know or how confident when we're
when we know or how confident when we're feeling like we're on the right path,
feeling like we're on the right path, which that was a time when I thought I
which that was a time when I thought I was so much I was I think I might be the
was so much I was I think I might be the you know, Lugie in my face for that to
you know, Lugie in my face for that to me was God going, you're doing good, but
me was God going, you're doing good, but not that good, bud.
not that good, bud. There's so many young men that are
There's so many young men that are struggling. When I looked at this the
struggling. When I looked at this the stats around suicidal ideation and
stats around suicidal ideation and suicidality, the the biggest killer of
suicidality, the the biggest killer of men under I think the age of 45 is
men under I think the age of 45 is themselves. And it's funny you said
themselves. And it's funny you said earlier on about um to to be a young
earlier on about um to to be a young man, you have to feel like someone
man, you have to feel like someone depends on you. And it reminded me of
depends on you. And it reminded me of someone on the show that told me when
someone on the show that told me when they analyzed suicide letters, the the
they analyzed suicide letters, the the prevailing sentiment across all of these
prevailing sentiment across all of these suicide letters, I think it was an
suicide letters, I think it was an Australian study, was feeling like
Australian study, was feeling like people didn't need you or even worse,
people didn't need you or even worse, they were better off without you
they were better off without you in in suicide letters from
in in suicide letters from >> Japanese almost
>> Japanese almost >> and it goes it was when so when you said
>> and it goes it was when so when you said earlier that this you know we need
earlier that this you know we need someone to depend upon us. It made me
someone to depend upon us. It made me think about that. And then you talked
think about that. And then you talked about challenge. We need a resistance
about challenge. We need a resistance and challenge to to aim for
and challenge to to aim for >> and life is removing that that
>> and life is removing that that challenge. It's it's removing the uh
challenge. It's it's removing the uh >> Yeah. What are the new challenges
>> Yeah. What are the new challenges >> being on the internet, Tik Tok, social
>> being on the internet, Tik Tok, social like social social media. So if those
like social social media. So if those challenges though for now and I'm just
challenges though for now and I'm just paraphrase this if those challenges may
paraphrase this if those challenges may not be the ones that and we hopefully we
not be the ones that and we hopefully we find ways that they can actually pay us
find ways that they can actually pay us back in a qualitative way.
back in a qualitative way. Don't we need a challenge that's a
Don't we need a challenge that's a that's immortal
that's immortal like
like belief in God or belief in our better
belief in God or belief in our better self and how we are as a human and our
self and how we are as a human and our own character and our own dignity and
own character and our own dignity and our relationships
our relationships in tomorrow in our past and our kids
in tomorrow in our past and our kids that are not measured and paid for with
that are not measured and paid for with a local mortal currency
a local mortal currency but are a pursuit that
but are a pursuit that keep us having qualitative and valuable
keep us having qualitative and valuable experiences that mean something to us
experiences that mean something to us and give our life meaning while we're
and give our life meaning while we're doing whatever it else we're doing in
doing whatever it else we're doing in life that may not be giving us the
life that may not be giving us the meaning or making us feel
meaning or making us feel >> I want to ask you something because as I
>> I want to ask you something because as I started to read poems and prayers you
started to read poems and prayers you sort of confront a lot of my previous
sort of confront a lot of my previous rebuttals to faith which I imagine a lot
rebuttals to faith which I imagine a lot of young people have which is around
of young people have which is around like the science of it like what what
like the science of it like what what about the science what about proof and
about the science what about proof and evidence and you confront this head on
evidence and you confront this head on >> and how do you think about that because
>> and how do you think about that because you're you're someone that understands
you're you're someone that understands the science and the studies and all
the science and the studies and all those kinds of things. But
those kinds of things. But >> I think one I think science is the
>> I think one I think science is the practical pursuit of God and like we're
practical pursuit of God and like we're talking about perfection. It ain't never
talking about perfection. It ain't never going to get there. But bravo for it.
going to get there. But bravo for it. Believe God loves a scientist. I believe
Believe God loves a scientist. I believe he does. Going thank you again like
he does. Going thank you again like hands on the wheel. Thank you for being
hands on the wheel. Thank you for being agnostic and going you can only believe
agnostic and going you can only believe in your science. Thank you. You're
in your science. Thank you. You're turning your way towards me. Not going
turning your way towards me. Not going to get here but thank you for that
to get here but thank you for that pursuit, that independence. To bring up
pursuit, that independence. To bring up the word again.
the word again. It's
It's I don't know. That's the point. I can't
I don't know. That's the point. I can't got conclude.
Those are nouns. Believe is a verb.
Believe is a verb. Faith is a verb
Faith is a verb in God or any of those other things that
in God or any of those other things that we were talking about. Our better
we were talking about. Our better selves, each other. Those are
a scientist doesn't necessarily doubt. A scientist just says I can't believe in
scientist just says I can't believe in something that until it's proven. And if
something that until it's proven. And if it's unproven, my craft says I cannot
it's unproven, my craft says I cannot believe. I believe that's what a
believe. I believe that's what a scientist looks at it. So I cannot
scientist looks at it. So I cannot believe in
believe in or maybe is I must doubt that which
or maybe is I must doubt that which cannot be proven. I understand that
cannot be proven. I understand that that does not again contradict a
that does not again contradict a scientist or if that's your vocation. If
scientist or if that's your vocation. If that is your philosophy and your life
that is your philosophy and your life creed of how you behave and believe that
creed of how you behave and believe that does not contradict
does not contradict belief
belief in God even though you can't conclude
in God even though you can't conclude that God exists.
that God exists. I know plenty of scientists that are
I know plenty of scientists that are also believers.
I don't know. You know, it's it's it's I got a point
You know, it's it's it's I got a point here and this is this is not a lowest
here and this is this is not a lowest common denominator but also just a
common denominator but also just a another practical way
another practical way of
of thinking about it. If you're like, man,
thinking about it. If you're like, man, I don't I'm not I'm not I'm not for it.
I don't I'm not I'm not I'm not for it. Let's just go practical for a second.
Let's just go practical for a second. Heaven or not. All right, tomorrow is
Heaven or not. All right, tomorrow is not today's measurement when the misery
not today's measurement when the misery is bad enough to the suffering.
is bad enough to the suffering. Consideration is a privilege.
Consideration is a privilege. And that's part of what faith and
And that's part of what faith and religion are for. To help those in
religion are for. To help those in misery hang on to a hope that will most
misery hang on to a hope that will most likely not be served them in this life.
likely not be served them in this life. to sell them belief and faith that they
to sell them belief and faith that they will be served in the next.
will be served in the next. And what if there's nothing there, man?
And what if there's nothing there, man? What if there's nothing to hope for? No
What if there's nothing to hope for? No next.
I don't know. Either way, in misery here or without a
Either way, in misery here or without a heaven there, not having any hope or
heaven there, not having any hope or faith in anything is a certain way to
faith in anything is a certain way to remain where you are forever.
remain where you are forever. But if you can find something that can
But if you can find something that can keep you going, something no matter how
keep you going, something no matter how small to look forward to and continually
small to look forward to and continually have faith in and chase,
have faith in and chase, well then your life here will be better
well then your life here will be better than it is now,
than it is now, heaven or not.
It's not an argument for faith. It's it is saying though what I think is true,
is saying though what I think is true, what I believe is true is that to
what I believe is true is that to pursue
pursue that divinity even if you don't believe
that divinity even if you don't believe in the author
in the author it's not anonymous
but if you say no when you say that's that's God I don't believe in that
that's God I don't believe in that author fine okay
author fine okay find principles and ways of living and
find principles and ways of living and approaching life yourself others
approaching life yourself others your neighbor and self. There's call
your neighbor and self. There's call them ethics, whatever, morals, whatever
them ethics, whatever, morals, whatever you want to call them, paradigms and
you want to call them, paradigms and sort of law markers out there that's
sort of law markers out there that's going to helps in this life. Now,
>> you know, >> get you out of the rut.
>> get you out of the rut. >> That's what this the science and the
>> That's what this the science and the studies show that people that are do
studies show that people that are do have a faith are happier, healthier, and
have a faith are happier, healthier, and people can argue as to why that is.
people can argue as to why that is. name.
name. >> Hey, that's what I'm I try to be clear
>> Hey, that's what I'm I try to be clear in this that I'm not I'm not trying to
in this that I'm not I'm not trying to convert people to go, "No, you should
convert people to go, "No, you should believe in God." There's plenty of left
believe in God." There's plenty of left to go. I get it with religion that
to go. I get it with religion that excludes a certain amount of people that
excludes a certain amount of people that I cannot go there. I cannot go with I I
I cannot go there. I cannot go with I I cannot purchase the belief that some
cannot purchase the belief that some people of faith have, which is, well, if
people of faith have, which is, well, if you don't believe Jesus is the only son
you don't believe Jesus is the only son of God and that's it, then you're going
of God and that's it, then you're going to hell. I got too many friends, a lot
to hell. I got too many friends, a lot of them over there in Mali and around
of them over there in Mali and around the whole world. I'm like going, I can't
the whole world. I'm like going, I can't go as far to believe that they're all
go as far to believe that they're all going to hell. Uh-uh. If there even is
going to hell. Uh-uh. If there even is one. But it's when religion has become
one. But it's when religion has become exclusionary along the way that let's
exclusionary along the way that let's remember we bastardized it. You know,
remember we bastardized it. You know, religion comes from the word, you know,
religion comes from the word, you know, I love like I talk about sin earlier to
I love like I talk about sin earlier to miss the mark. Religion is from the
miss the mark. Religion is from the Latin root relear.
Latin root relear. Legar means to bind together.
Legar means to bind together. re means again
re means again religion is about restoration.
religion is about restoration. Got a bunch of spiritual friends who say
Got a bunch of spiritual friends who say they're not religious and know what
they're not religious and know what they're telling me is they want unity.
they're telling me is they want unity. That's what religion means. We
That's what religion means. We bastardized it along the way. We made it
bastardized it along the way. We made it a business. I don't believe that the
a business. I don't believe that the original creators of religion and
original creators of religion and Muhammad and Jesus and God are going,
Muhammad and Jesus and God are going, "Yeah, yeah, that's fine." No. There's
"Yeah, yeah, that's fine." No. There's even stories in the Bible about going,
even stories in the Bible about going, "No, that ain't fine.
"No, that ain't fine. But so we don't throw the baby out with
But so we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I just pose the question
the bathwater. I just pose the question to us to say
to us to say maybe it's not religion we're mad at.
maybe it's not religion we're mad at. Maybe we need to restore what that
Maybe we need to restore what that means. Restore its original meaning and
means. Restore its original meaning and live that way instead of just accepting
live that way instead of just accepting what it's become in so many places in so
what it's become in so many places in so many ways. Poems and prayers comes to me
many ways. Poems and prayers comes to me because I started getting um
because I started getting um a little cynical myself. I started to,
a little cynical myself. I started to, you know, default objectify,
you know, default objectify, found myself objectifying people, kind
found myself objectifying people, kind of looking down my nose at them upon on
of looking down my nose at them upon on hello, thinking, "Ah, they're probably
hello, thinking, "Ah, they're probably not going to make the cut at what they
not going to make the cut at what they do
do without any reason to be thinking that
without any reason to be thinking that way." Um, I started looking listening to
way." Um, I started looking listening to the news and leadership and I'm going
the news and leadership and I'm going wait a minute now. So, we're saying
wait a minute now. So, we're saying if success
if success is the key, if success is the
is the key, if success is the measurement and you can get it by lying,
measurement and you can get it by lying, cheating, and stealing and still be
cheating, and stealing and still be rewarded the gold medal.
rewarded the gold medal. We That's what's happening. Are we Are
We That's what's happening. Are we Are we Are we ready to say that's okay? Are
we Are we ready to say that's okay? Are we ready to say that's just how it is?
we ready to say that's just how it is? We have leaders in positions now that
We have leaders in positions now that are saying, "Yeah, just win.
are saying, "Yeah, just win. Well, ju just just win. Just succeed."
Well, ju just just win. Just succeed." But yeah, I don't care how you get
But yeah, I don't care how you get there, but you did it. Congratulations.
there, but you did it. Congratulations. Come to the front of the line.
Come to the front of the line. So, what are the ethics? I don't know.
So, what are the ethics? I don't know. What' the winner do? Well, but they
What' the winner do? Well, but they Wait, what about What about rules? Oh,
Wait, what about What about rules? Oh, yeah. By the way, the rules, if you
yeah. By the way, the rules, if you follow them, you're a sucker.
follow them, you're a sucker. Uh, I started to find myself going,
Uh, I started to find myself going, "Wait a minute.
"Wait a minute. I'm not ready to say.
I'm not ready to say. That's just how it is.
That's just how it is. I'm not ready to wave that white flag."
I'm not ready to wave that white flag." Are we
Are we ready to wave that white flag and go,
ready to wave that white flag and go, "We can see that's what it is." Because
"We can see that's what it is." Because there's many reasons to do so. And so
there's many reasons to do so. And so I'm looking around at people and going,
I'm looking around at people and going, I'm not finding things people to believe
I'm not finding things people to believe in and I'm finding it harder to believe
in and I'm finding it harder to believe myself.
myself. One of the things that I I learned
One of the things that I I learned through your writing in poems and
through your writing in poems and prayers, but also in greenlights is that
prayers, but also in greenlights is that although those people might get to the
although those people might get to the front of the queue and be awarded the
front of the queue and be awarded the medal,
medal, the medal it that you're awarded or the
the medal it that you're awarded or the queue that you get to the front of might
queue that you get to the front of might not actually give you what you want. And
not actually give you what you want. And you you start by sort of reframing
you you start by sort of reframing success which I think is a really
success which I think is a really important thing especially for a young
important thing especially for a young generation especially for men who are
generation especially for men who are you know the first to want to get to the
you know the first to want to get to the top of the pyramid in certain pursuits
top of the pyramid in certain pursuits in life and actually from thinking about
in life and actually from thinking about what your your goal was of being a
what your your goal was of being a father and how that's a lost pursuit if
father and how that's a lost pursuit if you look at you know the amount of
you look at you know the amount of people that are having children and um I
people that are having children and um I think that's a big question and actually
think that's a big question and actually that's what your writing does for me.
that's what your writing does for me. really confronts me in a way to go,
really confronts me in a way to go, okay, you can get to the top of the the
okay, you can get to the top of the the pile or you can get the gold medal, but
pile or you can get the gold medal, but be careful what that medal represents
be careful what that medal represents and a medal in what,
and a medal in what, >> right?
>> right? >> What's relevant for what? We all want to
>> What's relevant for what? We all want to be relevant. Okay. Like relevant for
be relevant. Okay. Like relevant for what? We want to succeed,
what? We want to succeed, >> but when we succeed, do we act is it
>> but when we succeed, do we act is it worth it if we don't profit?
worth it if we don't profit? >> Yeah. You said, yeah,
>> Yeah. You said, yeah, >> you know what I mean?
>> you know what I mean? >> If more we we're we're trained to go the
>> If more we we're we're trained to go the quantity
quantity >> is the is the is the goal. That's it.
>> is the is the is the goal. That's it. Well, then if that's sacrificing quality
Well, then if that's sacrificing quality >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> or value, what we actually value
>> or value, what we actually value >> what are you really winning? You're
>> what are you really winning? You're winning one of the mortal games,
winning one of the mortal games, you know. And mind you, I also think
you know. And mind you, I also think it's worth talking about, and I don't
it's worth talking about, and I don't know the answers, is I'm sitting over
know the answers, is I'm sitting over here in a privileged place to be able to
here in a privileged place to be able to say that
say that >> someone's in misery. You want to talk to
>> someone's in misery. You want to talk to them about projecting and sacrificing
them about projecting and sacrificing today so you can have more tomorrow.
today so you can have more tomorrow. Those people are looking at you going,
Those people are looking at you going, I'm trying to pay my rent, put food on
I'm trying to pay my rent, put food on the table. Well, lucky you, Matthew, you
the table. Well, lucky you, Matthew, you get to talk about that. I'm not saying
get to talk about that. I'm not saying I'm not saying that I changing my mind,
I'm not saying that I changing my mind, but I am conscious and I still need I
but I am conscious and I still need I still have more to learn from talking
still have more to learn from talking with people that are going like, man,
with people that are going like, man, I'm don't I don't have the luxury to
I'm don't I don't have the luxury to think about tomorrow. The the other
think about tomorrow. The the other thing that I is particularly front of
thing that I is particularly front of mind for me and has been for about three
mind for me and has been for about three to six months now is just this idea of
to six months now is just this idea of independence which has increasingly been
independence which has increasingly been sold to people whether it's be your own
sold to people whether it's be your own boss. More people are lonely than ever
boss. More people are lonely than ever before. Less people are choosing to have
before. Less people are choosing to have families than ever before. This idea of
families than ever before. This idea of independence might have failed us. And
independence might have failed us. And like all of my friends that are most
like all of my friends that are most happy have the most dependence. And my
happy have the most dependence. And my friends that are struggling now are in
friends that are struggling now are in therapy are having what I would describe
therapy are having what I would describe as an existential crisis have the most
as an existential crisis have the most independence. No one depends upon them
independence. No one depends upon them and they depend upon no one. And the
and they depend upon no one. And the other sort of adjacent idea to this is
other sort of adjacent idea to this is I'm writing this book at the moment
I'm writing this book at the moment called I can't find God which is kind of
called I can't find God which is kind of a reflection of my own religious
a reflection of my own religious curiosity that maybe we do need to
curiosity that maybe we do need to ladder up to something. So me, my
ladder up to something. So me, my family, my community, maybe the planet,
family, my community, maybe the planet, then something transcendent, something
then something transcendent, something higher. And people that don't ladder up
higher. And people that don't ladder up seem to be lost.
seem to be lost. >> Yeah. If you go
>> Yeah. If you go from who we are
from who we are and make the North Star
and make the North Star God or the proclivity to imitate and be
God or the proclivity to imitate and be more divine,
more divine, those things happen
those things happen naturally through the humility, through
naturally through the humility, through the courage, through the
the courage, through the sort of peace of mind, wrong or right,
sort of peace of mind, wrong or right, that oh, this isn't all there is. Let's
that oh, this isn't all there is. Let's play the immortal game. So therefore,
play the immortal game. So therefore, risks are much easier to take. You're
risks are much easier to take. You're much more courageous down here because
much more courageous down here because you're like, I'm not looking forward to
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When your children come to you, Matthew, and ask you, they say, "Dad, you know, I
and ask you, they say, "Dad, you know, I want to be as a success in my life
want to be as a success in my life defined in whatever way I define it."
defined in whatever way I define it." You've been able to climb to the very
You've been able to climb to the very top of the mountain that you aim to
top of the mountain that you aim to climb in terms of your professional
climb in terms of your professional achievements.
achievements. Is there anything transferable? you
Is there anything transferable? you talked about hard work earlier that
talked about hard work earlier that people might miss
people might miss >> um when they see such a remarkable
>> um when they see such a remarkable career because I I look at your career
career because I I look at your career journey on paper and I go you've you you
journey on paper and I go you've you you did it but then you did it again and
did it but then you did it again and again and again and again and again and
again and again and again and again and again and again at the very very highest
again and again at the very very highest level and I'm like is this was this
level and I'm like is this was this natural talent was were you given
natural talent was were you given something in your DNA
something in your DNA >> and I know it's hard to sometimes self
>> and I know it's hard to sometimes self analyze but what is it
analyze but what is it >> what is that.
So I think that and what what I do try to say some
and what what I do try to say some version of this to my kids when we talk
version of this to my kids when we talk about their futures is look and I talked
about their futures is look and I talked to a lot of young people about this if
to a lot of young people about this if you
you first if start with what do you have an
first if start with what do you have an innate ability to what's in your DNA you
innate ability to what's in your DNA you know I wanted to play basketball for
know I wanted to play basketball for years I wanted to dunk
years I wanted to dunk it ain't my DNA bro I was I'm never
it ain't my DNA bro I was I'm never going to dunk no matter how hard I
going to dunk no matter how hard I worked at I was never going to dunk
worked at I was never going to dunk That's what I wanted to do. So look at
That's what I wanted to do. So look at what do you have an innate ability for?
what do you have an innate ability for? I wanted to be Washington Redk running
I wanted to be Washington Redk running back. No, it's too slow and not and not
back. No, it's too slow and not and not powerful enough. Well, I didn't have the
powerful enough. Well, I didn't have the innate ability. So what do you have the
innate ability. So what do you have the innate ability for?
innate ability for? Then what then are you willing to pursue
Then what then are you willing to pursue an education for, work for, hustle for
an education for, work for, hustle for that for which you have an inability
that for which you have an inability for? And if we're going to talk about
for? And if we're going to talk about making a living,
making a living, is that which you have an innate ability
is that which you have an innate ability for and now have educated yourself, your
for and now have educated yourself, your talent to have a talent for is that and
talent to have a talent for is that and how can that be something that the world
how can that be something that the world demands
demands cuz it's supply and demand?
Boy, if you can end up doing something you got an innate ability for, plus you
you got an innate ability for, plus you you become really good at it and you
you become really good at it and you learn the craft and the world demands it
learn the craft and the world demands it and you can sply it. There you go. But
and you can sply it. There you go. But we don't always
we don't always some of us have innate ability but we're
some of us have innate ability but we're not willing to we don't work for it. We
not willing to we don't work for it. We don't improve our skills. We kind of
don't improve our skills. We kind of rely on what we got and it kind of come
rely on what we got and it kind of come middle of the field and it
middle of the field and it sometimes I don't have the ability for
sometimes I don't have the ability for it but I'm going to learn a new craft
it but I'm going to learn a new craft and I'm going to hustle at it and then
and I'm going to hustle at it and then actually when we get good at something
actually when we get good at something we kind of can start to go oh I didn't
we kind of can start to go oh I didn't know I loved it. I didn't like this
know I loved it. I didn't like this anymore but I like it now. It starts to
anymore but I like it now. It starts to feel good to do over and over.
feel good to do over and over. and you aimed at becoming a you know it
and you aimed at becoming a you know it it says it in here it says uh winning an
it says it in here it says uh winning an Oscar for best actor etc etc you
Oscar for best actor etc etc you accomplish so many of these goals that
accomplish so many of these goals that you had and then there comes this point
you had and then there comes this point in your life where you seem to step back
in your life where you seem to step back from being this romcom
from being this romcom >> star and it's almost as if a dream you
>> star and it's almost as if a dream you once had failed you and you reorientate
once had failed you and you reorientate yourself once again to something
yourself once again to something >> of more substance
>> of more substance >> so
the decision to make to maybe to answer a little more the last question. I
I've when something's not feeling like I'm completely
I'm completely in the pocket on it on this getting it
in the pocket on it on this getting it on the screws if it and also maybe I am
on the screws if it and also maybe I am but it's not translating. We talked
but it's not translating. We talked about earlier art that translates and
about earlier art that translates and you hear the same thing back you're like
you hear the same thing back you're like ah that's it. That's the communication
ah that's it. That's the communication of good art. Maybe I'm feeling like I'm
of good art. Maybe I'm feeling like I'm busting my tail at something, but I put
busting my tail at something, but I put it out there and it just goes, "Huh?" I
it out there and it just goes, "Huh?" I don't know. Sometimes it's bad timing.
don't know. Sometimes it's bad timing. Sometimes just I was chasing the wrong
Sometimes just I was chasing the wrong was chasing up the wrong tree there. At
was chasing up the wrong tree there. At least maybe I chased it for me, but no
least maybe I chased it for me, but no one else gave a damn. That can that can
one else gave a damn. That can that can happen.
I've been fortunate to if something's not sitting
fortunate to if something's not sitting well in my
well in my soul,
soul, even if I'm pulling it off and I'm like,
even if I'm pulling it off and I'm like, "Dude, you're the romcom guy. You are
"Dude, you're the romcom guy. You are the You're the go-to guy, man. You're
the You're the go-to guy, man. You're number one on the call. You're the you
number one on the call. You're the you took the baton from Hugh Grant and ran
took the baton from Hugh Grant and ran there. You love doing They're fun. Geez,
there. You love doing They're fun. Geez, they pay great, too. I can line them up.
they pay great, too. I can line them up. I was getting quantity, but I wasn't
I was getting quantity, but I wasn't getting the quality. I was like going
getting the quality. I was like going kind of feel like I could do it
kind of feel like I could do it tomorrow. And I was like, "Oh, nothing
tomorrow. And I was like, "Oh, nothing wrong with that. You've worked to get to
wrong with that. You've worked to get to that point to where you feel like you
that point to where you feel like you could do it tomorrow." I was like,
could do it tomorrow." I was like, "Yeah, but I don't I need some
"Yeah, but I don't I need some resistance. I need I want to find
resistance. I need I want to find something that scares me.
something that scares me. Mind you, at that time,
Mind you, at that time, I've fallen in love with Camila and
I've fallen in love with Camila and she's pregnant with her first child.
she's pregnant with her first child. What's the thing I always want to be in
What's the thing I always want to be in life? Father. So my life is like, "Oh
life? Father. So my life is like, "Oh yeah,
yeah, the roof is raised and the basement is
the roof is raised and the basement is lowered and the width is wider, man. I'm
lowered and the width is wider, man. I'm feeling more, crying more, laughing
feeling more, crying more, laughing louder, feeling more painful, all of it.
louder, feeling more painful, all of it. My emotions are life is vital."
My emotions are life is vital." And I said, "Okay, what I want to do is
And I said, "Okay, what I want to do is dramas, but Hollywood won't offer me one
dramas, but Hollywood won't offer me one no matter how big of a pay cut I take."
no matter how big of a pay cut I take." So I said, "All right, if I can't do
So I said, "All right, if I can't do what I want to do, I'm going to quit
what I want to do, I'm going to quit doing what I've been doing." So chose to
doing what I've been doing." So chose to boom go to the ranch in Texas. Camila's
boom go to the ranch in Texas. Camila's pregnant. Told my agent no more romcoms.
pregnant. Told my agent no more romcoms. Blah blah blah blah blah. Don't know how
Blah blah blah blah blah. Don't know how long that's going to last.
long that's going to last. Made that decision with Camila. And we
Made that decision with Camila. And we said, "Look, you know, going to make
said, "Look, you know, going to make this decision. There's no telling how
this decision. There's no telling how long we're going to go without work.
long we're going to go without work. But if we're making the decision like
But if we're making the decision like Australia, it's non-negotiable. We're
Australia, it's non-negotiable. We're not going back on it."
not going back on it." >> And you get offered a lot of money in
>> And you get offered a lot of money in that time.
that time. >> Yeah. There's a great story.
>> Yeah. There's a great story. So nothing comes in for months and I'm
So nothing comes in for months and I'm starting to think like, "Oh my gosh, I
starting to think like, "Oh my gosh, I might need to find become a teacher.
might need to find become a teacher. Might need to go back to law school.
Might need to go back to law school. Got to find a new vocation. I just wrote
Got to find a new vocation. I just wrote myself a one-way ticket out of
myself a one-way ticket out of Hollywood." This offer comes in for this
Hollywood." This offer comes in for this action comedy.
action comedy. $8 million offer. I read it and I said,
$8 million offer. I read it and I said, "No, thank you. That's the stuff I'm not
"No, thank you. That's the stuff I'm not doing." I come back with a $10 million
doing." I come back with a $10 million offer. I I'm not reading that again. No
offer. I I'm not reading that again. No thank you. come back at a $12 million
thank you. come back at a $12 million offer. Guys, tell him I said no thanks.
offer. Guys, tell him I said no thanks. I come back at a $14.5 million offer.
I come back at a $14.5 million offer. I said,
Let me read that again. I'd read it again. It's the same words
I'd read it again. It's the same words that were in the $8 million offer that I
that were in the $8 million offer that I said no to, but it was better written.
said no to, but it was better written. It was funnier, man. I could see myself
It was funnier, man. I could see myself in it. This is could be I could make
in it. This is could be I could make this work. Yeah. Anyway, I ultimately
this work. Yeah. Anyway, I ultimately said no. And I think
said no. And I think in my theory, I don't have any proof of
in my theory, I don't have any proof of it, but I think that me saying no to
it, but I think that me saying no to that $14.5 million offer
that $14.5 million offer a year into me leaving and saying no
a year into me leaving and saying no more romcoms. I think me doing that sent
more romcoms. I think me doing that sent the message got around kind of through
the message got around kind of through Hollywood. Oh, McConn is not bluffing.
Hollywood. Oh, McConn is not bluffing. What the [ __ ] he up to? Something
What the [ __ ] he up to? Something about that was like, oh, he didn't just
about that was like, oh, he didn't just recede.
recede. He's got a plan, but he's just he
He's got a plan, but he's just he stepped out of Hollywood. He's turned
stepped out of Hollywood. He's turned out 145.
Oh, he's not rent. He's not for rent, >> which
interesting. Oh, maybe a little more attractive.
Oh, maybe a little more attractive. Well, you know what would be a who might
Well, you know what would be a who might be a novel? Great idea for this drama.
be a novel? Great idea for this drama. Lincoln lawyer for this killer killer
Lincoln lawyer for this killer killer Joe for Mud for Dallas Buyers Club Magic
Joe for Mud for Dallas Buyers Club Magic Mike True Detective
Mike True Detective MC.
20 months after I stepped out. I didn't know how long it would go. That's how
know how long it would go. That's how long it went,
long it went, all of a sudden those offers came in
all of a sudden those offers came in and I was off and I grabbed a hold of
and I was off and I grabbed a hold of all of them I could and did them and
all of them I could and did them and love doing them and and uh yeah. Would I
love doing them and and uh yeah. Would I would those have come if id have never
would those have come if id have never stepped out? I can not even kind of say
stepped out? I can not even kind of say maybe. No. No, they wouldn't have.
maybe. No. No, they wouldn't have. >> So interesting how success can become a
>> So interesting how success can become a prison. It goes back to that sort of
prison. It goes back to that sort of marginal
marginal >> slow.
>> slow. [Music]
[Music] >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And then you had to do something drastic
>> And then you had to do something drastic to realign.
to realign. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Turn down $14.5 million which and trust
>> Turn down $14.5 million which and trust me my brothers were like most people
me my brothers were like most people going what is your major malfunction
going what is your major malfunction little brother? You know, but
little brother? You know, but I remembered how I felt that night when
I remembered how I felt that night when I had when it came to me and it settled
I had when it came to me and it settled and it came up and I made the covenant
and it came up and I made the covenant and and and I prayed and swore on it
and and and I prayed and swore on it with Camila and we said that's the
with Camila and we said that's the decisions made. No matter how long this
decisions made. No matter how long this goes, we're not going to go back on the
goes, we're not going to go back on the decision. So, a lot of these stories I
decision. So, a lot of these stories I think come out about endurance
in a way. The Australian story, this story are two that remind me of like I
story are two that remind me of like I could have pulled the parachute at
could have pulled the parachute at sensibly
sensibly at any time after the first three months
at any time after the first three months in Australia. If I tell you the details
in Australia. If I tell you the details of that, you'd be like, "Dude, why
of that, you'd be like, "Dude, why didn't you come home after a year out of
didn't you come home after a year out of the business maybe
the business maybe and my agents tell me, I haven't even
and my agents tell me, I haven't even heard your name in four months."
heard your name in four months." [ __ ]
[ __ ] why go start a new job? Just go back.
why go start a new job? Just go back. Those jobs are waiting for you. the
Those jobs are waiting for you. the romcom jobs. You were doing the waiting.
romcom jobs. You were doing the waiting. >> The through line for me as well is just
>> The through line for me as well is just you in these moments you knew who you
you in these moments you knew who you were and were not, which a lot of people
were and were not, which a lot of people don't. And you have to kind of know who
don't. And you have to kind of know who you are and are not in order to turn
you are and are not in order to turn things down or to accept things that are
things down or to accept things that are for you, right?
for you, right? I'm going to go one step
I'm going to go one step previous to that.
previous to that. I don't know if I could say
I don't know if I could say I knew who I was.
An easier place for us all to begin and I think where what's more true for me is
I think where what's more true for me is that these were times when I go
that these were times when I go I knew who I was not
I knew who I was not and I don't know what the I kind of know
and I don't know what the I kind of know what I want to do roles that can
what I want to do roles that can challenge the vitality of my life. you
challenge the vitality of my life. you know, stereotype. We could say we call
know, stereotype. We could say we call those a drama. But
those a drama. But >> wasn't like I had the script written.
>> wasn't like I had the script written. >> This is the one I want to do and no one
>> This is the one I want to do and no one let me do it. You know what I mean? So
let me do it. You know what I mean? So it said no to that. In Australia, I knew
it said no to that. In Australia, I knew that I couldn't be the guy who goes,
that I couldn't be the guy who goes, I'm out of here, man. Because I shook on
I'm out of here, man. Because I shook on it
it and was having a sneaky suspicion that
and was having a sneaky suspicion that the longer this penance went on, the
the longer this penance went on, the greater the gift would be on the other
greater the gift would be on the other side. Did I trick myself on that?
side. Did I trick myself on that? probably.
probably. Did I was I telling myself that here as
Did I was I telling myself that here as a was I posting that on my proverbial
a was I posting that on my proverbial fridge and repeating it like a mantra?
fridge and repeating it like a mantra? Yes. It took a while to get down into
Yes. It took a while to get down into No, I actually believe that to be true.
No, I actually believe that to be true. >> You have a good relationship with
>> You have a good relationship with uncertainty with not having the branch
uncertainty with not having the branch to swing to perfectly.
to swing to perfectly. >> I hope so. My wife's out there. If
>> I hope so. My wife's out there. If you're seeing this, she's probably like
you're seeing this, she's probably like he needs to work on his relationship
he needs to work on his relationship with uncertainty,
with uncertainty, [Laughter]
>> at least in a professional context. I mean,
mean, >> most people end up stuck because they
>> most people end up stuck because they just wait for 100% certainty about the
just wait for 100% certainty about the escape plan or the the next
escape plan or the the next >> Well, may maybe that's because
>> Well, may maybe that's because there are every role I've ever done, I
there are every role I've ever done, I went into it at some point and felt like
went into it at some point and felt like I was 100% certain that this is going to
I was 100% certain that this is going to be great. And not all of them were
be great. And not all of them were great.
great. So I've had been a part of things that
So I've had been a part of things that had the best laid plans
had the best laid plans >> and turned out to be like, "Oh [ __ ]
>> and turned out to be like, "Oh [ __ ] that's all we did to that." I've been
that's all we did to that." I've been part of things that had the best laid
part of things that had the best laid plans and turned out to be like, "Damn,
plans and turned out to be like, "Damn, all right."
all right." I've been a part of things that were
I've been a part of things that were under financed and didn't seem to have
under financed and didn't seem to have the foundation, but boy, we turned him
the foundation, but boy, we turned him into something.
into something. Dallas Buyers Club. $4.9 million in 25
Dallas Buyers Club. $4.9 million in 25 days.
days. Shot that movie.
Quality on the screen for that much money
money in that many days.
in that many days. Jean Mark and all director, we turned it
Jean Mark and all director, we turned it into that. We turned it into that.
into that. We turned it into that. We went into it. But even that, that's
We went into it. But even that, that's another fun story. That was never real.
another fun story. That was never real. I just we just said the producers and
I just we just said the producers and myself once John Mark came on the
myself once John Mark came on the director and the producers and my we got
director and the producers and my we got in a room and said we ought to just say
in a room and said we ought to just say we're doing this in October and so we
we're doing this in October and so we left out of there and started telling me
left out of there and started telling me yep doing it in October. There was no
yep doing it in October. There was no money. My agent was like you keep saying
money. My agent was like you keep saying you're doing it in October. You're not
you're doing it in October. You're not doing it in October. I was like yes we
doing it in October. I was like yes we are yes we are dude there's no money.
are yes we are dude there's no money. You're not buying it. Yes we are. She
You're not buying it. Yes we are. She kept saying it. Other scripts were
kept saying it. Other scripts were coming in. He's like can you read this?
coming in. He's like can you read this? It's going. When's it going? October.
It's going. When's it going? October. I'm not why I read it. I'm not doing I'm
I'm not why I read it. I'm not doing I'm doing Dallas. Dude, you're not doing
doing Dallas. Dude, you're not doing Dallas Spires Club. There's no time.
Dallas Spires Club. There's no time. There's not a date set. There's no
There's not a date set. There's no movie. Would you please read something
movie. Would you please read something for that time slot? No, cuz we're doing
for that time slot? No, cuz we're doing Dallas Spires Club.
Dallas Spires Club. >> Why were you so
>> Why were you so >> We just
>> We just we just kind of I'm not going to what's
we just kind of I'm not going to what's the word? We didn't manifest it. We just
the word? We didn't manifest it. We just didn't flinch.
didn't flinch. >> Don't have
>> Don't have >> we didn't stutter and we were all in
>> we didn't stutter and we were all in alliance and saying the same thing. So
alliance and saying the same thing. So all of a sudden people started to
all of a sudden people started to believe it.
believe it. >> Has that proven to be really important
>> Has that proven to be really important to believe what you say and to say it
to believe what you say and to say it with a conviction? Because it goes back
with a conviction? Because it goes back to what you the phone call with your
to what you the phone call with your father.
father. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> You didn't flinch.
>> You didn't flinch. Something seems to happen when you don't
Something seems to happen when you don't flinch.
flinch. >> Yeah. I mean,
it's different than fake it till you make it.
make it. You know,
You know, words are momentary. Intent is
words are momentary. Intent is momentous. Amen on that.
momentous. Amen on that. Yeah.
Yeah. >> Intent is momentous.
>> Intent is momentous. >> Yeah. There's a poem there on that same
>> Yeah. There's a poem there on that same thing. And I think it's it's where I I I
thing. And I think it's it's where I I I I write that in response pushing off of
I write that in response pushing off of where I think sort of a woke cancel
where I think sort of a woke cancel culture overcompensated
culture overcompensated where we bam hammered you for the word
where we bam hammered you for the word and didn't give the people to go. Wait,
and didn't give the people to go. Wait, do you understand my intent?
do you understand my intent? >> Intent is such a lust.
>> Intent is such a lust. >> Especially
>> Especially Especially
Especially with people who are ignorant.
with people who are ignorant. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> And didn't know better. They're right in
>> And didn't know better. They're right in here. I wish more not I don't want more
here. I wish more not I don't want more crimes but I wish more of the crimes
crimes but I wish more of the crimes were about from ignorance because it's
were about from ignorance because it's the ones it's it's it's it's the bad
the ones it's it's it's it's the bad agents that are going oh I know good
agents that are going oh I know good from evil and I'm going to do the evil
from evil and I'm going to do the evil well that son of a [ __ ] I'm sorry maybe
well that son of a [ __ ] I'm sorry maybe we do need to go in an alley and work it
we do need to go in an alley and work it out but the ones go I didn't I didn't
out but the ones go I didn't I didn't know that person needs some amnesty go
know that person needs some amnesty go well okay or given the a chance to talk
well okay or given the a chance to talk about it
about it when we forgotten
when we forgotten how to say
sorry dude I didn't that's what I me I did not know that's how you were going
did not know that's how you were going to I didn't mean for it to land on you
to I didn't mean for it to land on you like that's not how I how I meant it
like that's not how I how I meant it have we forgotten to do that
have we forgotten to do that and aren't we getting toolled by the
and aren't we getting toolled by the lawyers in the world to say just
lawyers in the world to say just litigate it dude sue him whoa what
litigate it dude sue him whoa what happened to hey man my bad stuck my foot
happened to hey man my bad stuck my foot in my mouth man I bogeied
in my mouth man I bogeied Sorry. Now,
Sorry. Now, if I come back and do it to you next
if I come back and do it to you next week and the next week after, shame on
week and the next week after, shame on me. Repeat offender, man. You can
me. Repeat offender, man. You can forgive me, but don't trust me. Go. I
forgive me, but don't trust me. Go. I need some I need some reparations. I got
need some I need some reparations. I got some work. I need some rehab. All right.
some work. I need some rehab. All right. But my first job on talking about
But my first job on talking about forgiveness and the words and intent, my
forgiveness and the words and intent, my first job, if I've done you wrong and
first job, if I've done you wrong and I've come asking for forgiveness, you've
I've come asking for forgiveness, you've open if you're going to if you're going
open if you're going to if you're going to forgive me, you've opened it up
to forgive me, you've opened it up first. And if you forgive me
first. And if you forgive me and you believe that I mean I I I'm
and you believe that I mean I I I'm truly sorry,
truly sorry, I'm do my best not to ever do that
I'm do my best not to ever do that again. If you believe that and then you
again. If you believe that and then you forgive me, first order of business is
forgive me, first order of business is for me to change the behavior that I
for me to change the behavior that I have so I don't have to come say sorry
have so I don't have to come say sorry to you again.
>> That I think we miss sometimes that sometimes people go, I'm sorry,
sometimes people go, I'm sorry, forgiven. Oh, cool. We're even. All
forgiven. Oh, cool. We're even. All right, back to it. And all of a sudden
right, back to it. And all of a sudden you're like, you did it again, dude.
you're like, you did it again, dude. Have a little reward. I thought you were
Have a little reward. I thought you were going to course correct. You know, I've
going to course correct. You know, I've got to course correct the offender for
got to course correct the offender for the first order of business for the
the first order of business for the offender to go, I'm going to do what I
offender to go, I'm going to do what I can not to have say I'm sorry to you
can not to have say I'm sorry to you again.
again. >> I think there's a more obvious incentive
>> I think there's a more obvious incentive to misunderstand people now, especially
to misunderstand people now, especially when you there's likes and follows and
when you there's likes and follows and retweets and play. Misunderstanding
retweets and play. Misunderstanding someone, there's huge incentive in that.
someone, there's huge incentive in that. And I think maybe that's created a
And I think maybe that's created a culture of that being the default is to
culture of that being the default is to mis trying to misunderstand you because
mis trying to misunderstand you because >> trying to misunderstand. That's
>> trying to misunderstand. That's interesting
interesting >> because there's an incentive. I think
>> because there's an incentive. I think all human behavior can be tracked to
all human behavior can be tracked to incentives
incentives >> that and that's not the resistance we're
>> that and that's not the resistance we're talking about.
talking about. >> No no you know that's
>> No no you know that's come on
come on trying to misunderstand people
a real want and need. Yeah I think you're right. I'm asking this out to the
you're right. I'm asking this out to the world and myself trying to misunder to
world and myself trying to misunder to be controversial. What? To be
be controversial. What? To be >> it makes me significant,
>> it makes me significant, >> right? Because you own something and you
>> right? Because you own something and you >> Yeah. So you trumped my gesture.
>> Yeah. So you trumped my gesture. >> Yes. What about What about
>> Yes. What about What about >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> It proves, you know, I'm almost
>> It proves, you know, I'm almost piggybacking. You talked about
piggybacking. You talked about structure. I'm pushing off your
structure. I'm pushing off your >> Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Dude,
>> Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Dude, comp. We We've got to compare before we
comp. We We've got to compare before we contrast. Double down on somebody's
contrast. Double down on somebody's affirmation. Make a point there about
affirmation. Make a point there about make the point make the positives plural
make the point make the positives plural and the singular's negative. Block then
and the singular's negative. Block then you can block evil and the negative's
you can block evil and the negative's path to prophecy. If we can double down,
path to prophecy. If we can double down, I'm not saying be foolish and say
I'm not saying be foolish and say there's no negatives in the world.
there's no negatives in the world. There's no pain. There's no evil. No,
There's no pain. There's no evil. No, let's admit it's all out there and then
let's admit it's all out there and then choose to go. I'm going to talk about
choose to go. I'm going to talk about bad [ __ ] in my past in the past hence
bad [ __ ] in my past in the past hence because that's going to block its path
because that's going to block its path to prophecy and the positive things that
to prophecy and the positive things that are working the truths in my past. I'm
are working the truths in my past. I'm going to talk about them in the present
going to talk about them in the present and the future tense because we're going
and the future tense because we're going to keep that ball going. That's going to
to keep that ball going. That's going to be a verb. Let's make those a verb.
be a verb. Let's make those a verb. >> What season of life are you in now,
>> What season of life are you in now, Matthew?
Matthew? >> Season of life.
Well, the last eight years, I've really come to love fall.
come to love fall. I grew up, I was a summer guy.
I grew up, I was a summer guy. No shirt, no shoes, bright lights,
No shirt, no shoes, bright lights, extrovert. It's all good. Everything.
extrovert. It's all good. Everything. Don't [ __ ] about no shoes cuz there's
Don't [ __ ] about no shoes cuz there's somebody out there with no feet.
somebody out there with no feet. I've come to like fall because
I've come to like fall because I think I need I I I
I think I need I I I don't I'm interested in so many things
don't I'm interested in so many things that my hunch is to not take on more
that my hunch is to not take on more campfires, but to keep putting logs on
campfires, but to keep putting logs on the fires that I've built.
the fires that I've built. And to do that, the clouds that come
And to do that, the clouds that come with fall
with fall just nip ambition in the bud just a
just nip ambition in the bud just a little bit. They put a little bit of a
little bit. They put a little bit of a roof. I kind of like I'm not as big of a
roof. I kind of like I'm not as big of a fan of the 30- foot vault ceiling right
fan of the 30- foot vault ceiling right now. I I like that 10-footer, that
now. I I like that 10-footer, that 8-footer. I feel ambitious looking
8-footer. I feel ambitious looking laterally instead of my god the four
laterally instead of my god the four dimensionally. I'm
dimensionally. I'm looking for the dreams and the poems and
looking for the dreams and the poems and the prayers
the prayers to become the reality and I'm I like a
to become the reality and I'm I like a little bit of shade.
little bit of shade. >> Matthew, we have a closing tradition on
>> Matthew, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves
this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not
a question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to be leaving
knowing who they're going to be leaving it for. And the question that has been
it for. And the question that has been left for you is, "What is your greatest
left for you is, "What is your greatest weakness? What is your greatest
weakness? What is your greatest strength?"
strength?" Well, let me talk on this wall cuz a lot
Well, let me talk on this wall cuz a lot of times they seem to be the same damn
of times they seem to be the same damn thing. A lot of times people are like,
thing. A lot of times people are like, "Dude, your greatest asset is risk."
"Dude, your greatest asset is risk." And I'm like, I think that's why I got
And I'm like, I think that's why I got to work all more. I think I need to be
to work all more. I think I need to be taking a lot more risks.
taking a lot more risks. >> You think you need to be taking a lot
>> You think you need to be taking a lot more risks?
more risks? >> Yeah,
>> Yeah, >> that'll surprise a lot of people. Give
>> that'll surprise a lot of people. Give me the context though and the color.
>> I'm successful. I got a home.
I got a home. It's got a gate. I got a security guard.
It's got a gate. I got a security guard. I got three kids. Got a wife.
All right. Secure this. Keep that log on those fires going. That's the main
those fires going. That's the main thing, man. If you do that, if you do
thing, man. If you do that, if you do that, there's nothing better you can do.
Well, hang on a minute. You can do that, but you still need to engage. What are
but you still need to engage. What are you going to become a live-in father?
you going to become a live-in father? No. Kids need to see you go to work.
No. Kids need to see you go to work. Need to come with you go to work. Need
Need to come with you go to work. Need to see you and your mom going places
to see you and your mom going places without them.
without them. Engage
Engage in the world. Go find out some new
in the world. Go find out some new things. Learn some new things.
things. Learn some new things. Whether that's the physical frontier or
Whether that's the physical frontier or the mental frontier.
take more risk there to learn. As Mark Waters, director of Ghost Girlfriend's
Waters, director of Ghost Girlfriend's Past, told me one time, "Oh, MC, you're
Past, told me one time, "Oh, MC, you're never wrong." I was like, "Thank you."
never wrong." I was like, "Thank you." He goes, "But there's more than one way
He goes, "But there's more than one way to be right."
to be right." My
My my greatest one of my greatest assets is
my greatest one of my greatest assets is that when I am certain on something,
that when I am certain on something, I can commit to it. It can be an engine
I can commit to it. It can be an engine and a momentum to take me a long way. At
and a momentum to take me a long way. At the same time,
the same time, I can leave unnecessary shrapnel
I can leave unnecessary shrapnel with people I care about from my own
with people I care about from my own certainty
certainty because I'm so committed and obsessed
because I'm so committed and obsessed with this truth that I've crossed that I
with this truth that I've crossed that I can block out an alter alternative
can block out an alter alternative approach to it because I don't have the
approach to it because I don't have the confidence to go, "Oh, yeah, let me see
confidence to go, "Oh, yeah, let me see that." Because I still think, "Oh, if I
that." Because I still think, "Oh, if I see that, I'm going to lose some of
see that, I'm going to lose some of this." And I'm still working on that.
this." And I'm still working on that. It was so beautiful to read poems and
It was so beautiful to read poems and prayers. It was surprising and beautiful
prayers. It was surprising and beautiful at the same time. And uh I said to you
at the same time. And uh I said to you before we started recording, it's one of
before we started recording, it's one of the first times that I felt like I went
the first times that I felt like I went somewhere else in a while. And I It's
somewhere else in a while. And I It's funny cuz it was three or four days ago
funny cuz it was three or four days ago that I read the first um couple of poems
that I read the first um couple of poems and then I went back a couple of days
and then I went back a couple of days later. And I think in part because
later. And I think in part because things had changed in my life in those
things had changed in my life in those couple of days.
couple of days. The meaning of the poems were different.
The meaning of the poems were different. The meanings of the prayers seemed to be
The meanings of the prayers seemed to be entirely different. You also have this
entirely different. You also have this incredible book which has been one of
incredible book which has been one of those smash hit bestsellers of the last
those smash hit bestsellers of the last decade, Greenlights. And I know that one
decade, Greenlights. And I know that one of your good friends, Bill McRaven.
of your good friends, Bill McRaven. >> Yeah, Admiral Bill.
>> Yeah, Admiral Bill. >> Admiral Bill McRaven.
>> Admiral Bill McRaven. >> I always make you call him Bill, but I
>> I always make you call him Bill, but I always go Admiral. Yeah, Bill McRaven.
always go Admiral. Yeah, Bill McRaven. >> And he was somewhat part of the
>> And he was somewhat part of the inspiration or he inspired or was a
inspiration or he inspired or was a catalyst moment you seeing him speak.
catalyst moment you seeing him speak. It's a friendship
It's a friendship that he and I have started to build and
that he and I have started to build and as
as is at a at a time when I was seeking out
is at a at a time when I was seeking out male mentors
male mentors >> after your dad had passed.
>> after your dad had passed. >> Well, this is more in the last five
>> Well, this is more in the last five years, six years, seven years. I think I
years, six years, seven years. I think I wrote that four years ago, something
wrote that four years ago, something like that. And he always took my call,
like that. And he always took my call, always took time with me, always
always took time with me, always just without judgment shared great
just without judgment shared great wisdom with me. And without even knowing
wisdom with me. And without even knowing he shared it, I think just if you ever
he shared it, I think just if you ever get a chance to speak with him and spend
get a chance to speak with him and spend time, he's a he's really got it going
time, he's a he's really got it going on. He's got it he's he's he's really
on. He's got it he's he's he's really got a wonderful perspective. Um,
got a wonderful perspective. Um, >> are you able to share what you were
>> are you able to share what you were seeking guidance from him about?
seeking guidance from him about? No, the main thing I would keep private,
No, the main thing I would keep private, but then it was also we we we talked
but then it was also we we we talked about, you know,
about, you know, fatherhood,
fatherhood, husbandry,
husbandry, you know, um he's and he's got a great
you know, um he's and he's got a great sense of humor and all that stuff, too.
sense of humor and all that stuff, too. And and how, you know, making plans and
And and how, you know, making plans and seasons of our life and how much to rely
seasons of our life and how much to rely on those and how much are they just
on those and how much are they just like, "No, that's just an old parable,
like, "No, that's just an old parable, man. Doesn't really go like that." You
man. Doesn't really go like that." You know what I mean? Um, and I'd give
know what I mean? Um, and I'd give details, but I wouldn't I feel like I
details, but I wouldn't I feel like I might be speaking out of school if I
might be speaking out of school if I did.
did. >> I actually, um, we reached out to Bill
>> I actually, um, we reached out to Bill McRaven.
McRaven. >> Oh, you did?
>> Oh, you did? >> And he wrote this wonderful letter for
>> And he wrote this wonderful letter for you.
you. He said, "Dear Matthew, I remember
He said, "Dear Matthew, I remember clearly the first time we met. I'd been
clearly the first time we met. I'd been told that Matthew McConnA was going to
told that Matthew McConnA was going to be in the audience at my talk. I'd long
be in the audience at my talk. I'd long been a fan of your movies, but candidly,
been a fan of your movies, but candidly, I wondered more about the man than the
I wondered more about the man than the movie star. The man I met that day, the
movie star. The man I met that day, the person I've come to know over the past
person I've come to know over the past 10 years, has exceeded all my
10 years, has exceeded all my expectations. You are as genuine as any
expectations. You are as genuine as any person I know. There are no heirs about
person I know. There are no heirs about you. There is no pretense. There is no
you. There is no pretense. There is no Hollywood ego. There is just McConnA.
Hollywood ego. There is just McConnA. You treat everyone with respect. I have
You treat everyone with respect. I have watched you with your league of fans and
watched you with your league of fans and never once have you failed to shake a
never once have you failed to shake a hand, give a hug, take a picture, and
hand, give a hug, take a picture, and thank them for their kindness. I have
thank them for their kindness. I have watched you on the sidelines with your
watched you on the sidelines with your beloved look horns. When you are there,
beloved look horns. When you are there, the entire burnt orange nation feels
the entire burnt orange nation feels better than the game. In victory, your
better than the game. In victory, your enthusiasm is infectious. And in defeat,
enthusiasm is infectious. And in defeat, you are gracious and respectful,
you are gracious and respectful, representing all that is good about the
representing all that is good about the university and about Texas. I've watched
university and about Texas. I've watched you give back to your school, teaching
you give back to your school, teaching the next generation of actors, writers,
the next generation of actors, writers, and poets. I've seen your work as the
and poets. I've seen your work as the minister of culture, bringing fun and a
minister of culture, bringing fun and a Texas flare to everything you touch.
Texas flare to everything you touch. I've watched you after the tragedy in
I've watched you after the tragedy in Yaldi. It tore your heart out. And while
Yaldi. It tore your heart out. And while others stood on the sidelines wondering
others stood on the sidelines wondering how to deal with those unspeakable
how to deal with those unspeakable horrors, you headed straight to
horrors, you headed straight to Washington. Few people I know could have
Washington. Few people I know could have brought both Democrats and Republicans
brought both Democrats and Republicans together to make a difference. But you
together to make a difference. But you did. And then you stood in front of the
did. And then you stood in front of the entire nation and pleaded for s sanity.
entire nation and pleaded for s sanity. Through your compassion, your
Through your compassion, your determination, and your love, you have
determination, and your love, you have truly made a difference in so, so many
truly made a difference in so, so many lives. I have watched you with Camila
lives. I have watched you with Camila and your children. You're as fine a
and your children. You're as fine a father and a husband as any man I know.
father and a husband as any man I know. Every child should be as lucky as your
Every child should be as lucky as your kids. I know your mother is exceedingly
kids. I know your mother is exceedingly proud of the man you have become.
proud of the man you have become. Finally, I want to thank you for your
Finally, I want to thank you for your friendship, your unwavering support, and
friendship, your unwavering support, and for making my hometown of Austin some
for making my hometown of Austin some place special to live.
place special to live. Take care, Bill McRaven.
Take care, Bill McRaven. Wow.
Thank you, Bill. A that's that's that's something else.
A that's that's that's something else. You know,
You know, I did speak to him
I did speak to him before I went to DC after Ualdi
before I went to DC after Ualdi and just the wisdom with
the context, the setting, do you see politics,
do you see politics, but also
but also in that
in that being aware aware and understand those
being aware aware and understand those things.
Go your line, man. Go your line.
Go your line. And um
And um that's that's that's beautiful to hear.
that's that's that's beautiful to hear. You know, I did not know
You know, I did not know that he that he uh thought all those
that he that he uh thought all those things about me, and that makes me feel
things about me, and that makes me feel good. But I look forward to giving him a
good. But I look forward to giving him a a hug over our next cup of coffee or sip
a hug over our next cup of coffee or sip of tequila, whatever it is.
of tequila, whatever it is. Good man. Good, good, good, good man.
Good man. Good, good, good, good man. Bill McCraven, thank you. And everything
Bill McCraven, thank you. And everything he says in that letter is what I've had
he says in that letter is what I've had reflected to me by everybody you've met
reflected to me by everybody you've met and know. We've got some mutual contacts
and know. We've got some mutual contacts and those words ring true. And this is
and those words ring true. And this is why I think you're a great um role model
why I think you're a great um role model for for me, but also for young men like
for for me, but also for young men like me who are aspiring to figure out all
me who are aspiring to figure out all this stuff with all the modern
this stuff with all the modern temptations and you know different paths
temptations and you know different paths we can pursue and all the options more
we can pursue and all the options more options than ever
options than ever >> and a
>> and a less clear clarity on why we should
less clear clarity on why we should pursue resistance and family and faith
pursue resistance and family and faith and all the things described in this
and all the things described in this letter of the the empathy, the grace and
letter of the the empathy, the grace and the kindness and the respect of others.
the kindness and the respect of others. But you stand forth as an example for
But you stand forth as an example for why all those things are the most
why all those things are the most important things. And thank you for
important things. And thank you for that, Matthew. Thank you for being a
that, Matthew. Thank you for being a role model to me and so many young men
role model to me and so many young men like me and so many people, not just men
like me and so many people, not just men like me. And thank you for writing a
like me. And thank you for writing a brilliant book, poems and prayers, which
brilliant book, poems and prayers, which everybody can go and get now. Um, and
everybody can go and get now. Um, and just like me when I read it, it might
just like me when I read it, it might just take you to somewhere else.
just take you to somewhere else. Somewhere else you might rather be and
Somewhere else you might rather be and somewhere else you need to go. Thank
somewhere else you need to go. Thank you. Beautiful.
you. Beautiful. [Music]
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