This discussion highlights the critical importance of website updates and maintenance in WordPress, emphasizing the evolution of automatic update features, the challenges of compatibility, and the shared responsibility between users, developers, and hosts to ensure security and performance.
And yes, we're live. Hello and everyone.
Thanks for joining this uh live session
for today. A quick reminder, we do these
every week on Thursday at 400 pm Central
European time and at 10:00 a.m. Eastern
time. Today with me, yeah, by the way,
before I forget, if you have any
questions, this is live, so if you have
any questions, feel free to ask us. And
today with me, I have Roger from Kinsta.
How are you, Roger?
>> Robert, I am doing amazing. Thank you
for having me on the show. It's it's
8:00 a.m. here, so it's it's fresh in
the morning for us, but uh I'm really
excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
me.
>> Yeah, we're excited to have you mostly
because of course, yeah, you have more
than 20 years experience in the hosting
industry, which means roughly you're my
age, roughly something.
something.
>> I got the grades. I got the grades.
>> Yeah, I got a bit more, but yeah. Um
yeah, to be honest, you host also the
Kinsta talk show, right? >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> And you're a Word Camp speaker. And
during the last word camp you rep you
spoke about the auto roll back feature.
So yeah I wanted to invite you to yeah
share some some information about uh
updates but before we start can you give
just a brief overview of what you do and
a bit about your your your story with
WordPress to our audience.
>> Yeah. No absolutely talk about myself.
The worst thing I hate I hate talking
about myself. No. Uh so
>> if you like to be honest Yeah. when you
go to a lot of podcast it's like it's
always but yeah it's good
>> right right um no so yeah I've been at
Kinston now for over five years uh I'm
now in the currently in the partnership
and community management uh position
specifically for North America but I
love talking to my friends all over the
globe uh and I've been I've worn a bunch
of hats at Kinsta I came in on the
migrations team
uh worked with our manual migrations
team uh we do an amazing job it blows my
mind uh how how we handle migrations.
Love to dive into that at any point. Um
and then I did some work with the client
experience team uh working on surveys,
getting our onboarding emails and
messages all figured out. And before
that, you know, I've been I had an
agency for like eight or nine years. And
I say agency, it was an agency of one.
So um you know I I it was me and I I
would build you know various small
business mediumsiz business websites.
Got too caught up in social media
marketing. Burnt myself out. Uh and
before that worked at a couple of
different hosting companies, a couple of
content delivery network providers
before you could just go to a website
and say, "Hey, I want CDN." And you had
to actually talk to a person. Uh so that
was ancient ancient times ago at this
point almost. Um, and I don't now I live
in southwest Colorado with my wife and
my dogs and uh just really enjoy being
out in kind of the middle of nowhere,
but then I get the fortune to travel to
a lot of events um and get to speak uh
which I've been really enjoying kind of
that's new to me is this public speaking
thing. Uh really enjoying that. Uh seem
to be connecting with people and and uh
doing a decent job there. But uh you
know for the most part I'm just having a
really great time making good
connections and and helping people
figure out how to host their WordPress websites.
websites.
>> Nice. Thanks a lot for the intro. How is
it public? I mean to be honest I'm not a
fan of public speaking myself but I just
submitted my talk to world campaign in
in Poland which is in two three weeks.
So just any tips for the first time.
>> Yeah. So you know there's a there's a
sales book called Eat That Frog. I don't
know if you've heard of this. No, I already
already
>> It's a really short little book. There's
another one that's kind of similar
called Who Moved My Cheese or Who Ate My
Cheese or something like that. But, you
know, the basic premise of Eat That Frog
is like it's a terrible thing to like
eat a frog. Like, uh, oh my gosh, I
wouldn't want to do that. But the the
idea here is like do the thing that
you're scared of. Do the thing that
makes you uncomfortable because that's
how you're going to grow. And and
specifically in that book, it's do it
the first thing in the morning. like
just get that out of the way and then
the rest of the day is super easy. And
so I kind of look at public speaking
kind of the same way. I I I've gotten
very comfortable at this point being in
front of an audience, but uh that's very
recent. And the number one way to get
over that is to just do it. Um and eat
that frog, right? Like you you just
you've got to get up in front of people
and and and do it. And there's a lot of
things you can do to prepare for that,
though. So obviously the first thing to
do is write out whatever you're going to
talk about. Even if it's just a five
minute speech, write it all out and then
record it. Um, and you know, I do it as
simple as I'll just record it on my
phone and then I'll just listen to the
recording. And uh, you know, it's
absolutely cringe, right? Listening to
yourself. I'm I'm also getting
>> right I'm getting better at that. But I
think that's a huge step is like getting
comfortable hearing yourself. And
what'll happen is you'll immediately
start picking up on, you know, one of
the things I like to do is I'll I'll
I'll say a word twice. I'll be like,
"Excellent, excellent." in response to
somebody and it's not necessarily the
worst habit, but like I'm conscious of
that. Uh you become conscious of us and
ums and learning to just be quiet,
right? Learning to just pause and let
things happen. And you know, I'm talking
about all this like I'm an expert. I'm
still very much a beginner. There's way
better speakers out there. Uh this is
what has worked for me is doing the
practice, listening to it, and then just
getting out in front of people and
getting their feedback. And you know,
people are very generous. Uh usually, uh
you know, if they have something nice to
say, they'll say it. If they don't have
something nice to say, they'll say
something nice, hopefully. uh you know
and then and then but then also having
like uh good friends that you can
actually go to and say hey what did you
think of that speech and and you know
good and bad you're looking for good
feedback. So lots of practice and and
just getting comfortable with it.
>> That's that's
frog is quite uh yeah good. I I've done
the same. I've been thinking about
submitting a talk. Yes. No. Yes. No. I
was at the gym a few weeks ago. I was
listening to some motivation speak from
Jo willing. It's like if you're afraid
just go and do it and I just went back
home and submitted my talk and
>> awesome. So >> awesome.
>> awesome.
>> Good. So see yeah before we dive in I
have a very important question to ask
you because uh what what are the what is
the title or the titles of the songs you
sang at the Kok.
>> So you're referring to Word Camp that
just happened last week. Um, and
Elementor and Kinsta, we we came
together and we co-hosted a party and I
put myself on the spot. So, this is
another example of eating that frog,
right? I've never done karaoke in my life.
life.
>> Uh, abject terror. It goes back to fifth
grade choir class when my voice was
breaking and you had to sing your name
as an intro. Oh my gosh. So, anyway, uh,
I I committed myself to singing Hot to
Go by Chappelle Ron. And so I I opened
with that. My team, the Kinsta team was
gracious enough to basically commit me
to the DJ. Hey, yes, at 9:30 Roger's
coming on and he's singing this song.
And so that committed me. So having
having uh teammates or friends who will
help encourage you is also a really
helpful thing in here. And so yeah, so I
sang that uh I mean I I uh enunciated,
>> right? I I verbalized words
in the attempt of song. Uh lots of
people left the room. So uh you know,
I'll let you gauge the performance from
that. Uh and then also I there were a
bunch of people that were um gracious
enough to let me kind of sing with them.
I think there was a John Bonjovi song.
Oh gosh, I'm I'm gonna forget it the
name of the song right now. There was a
Lady Gaga song. I'm going to forget the
name. So basically, you went with the
flow and just dove right in. And
>> Yeah. Yeah. As soon as I did the first
song and realized I wasn't going to die
or burst into flames, you know, it's the
same thing as speaking publicly, right?
As soon as you realize you're not going
to die,
>> uh it it becomes a lot more fun. And so,
yeah, so we just had a lot of fun and
and there was a line of people lining up
to do karaoke. Like it was very popular.
So, I would advise anybody who's doing a
Word Camp side party, add karaoke.
There's a lot of karaoke fans in the
WordPress world.
>> Good to know. Good. Thanks for the tip.
So, yeah, let's jump now. Yeah. About
talk about the updates. So, let's start
with the basics. Um, what update options
do uh WordPress users have by by default?
default?
>> Yeah. So, it's a it's a great question.
It's a good thing to dig into here. I
may make mistakes here today. Please
people call me out on them. I I welcome
the corrections. So, there's two main
kind of areas of WordPress updates that
uh site owners need to pay attention to.
There's WordPress core.
And so, when we're talking about new
versions of WordPress coming out, the
next one's going to be 6.9.
And I can't believe nobody has used the
Bill and Ted meme. Uh 69. Dude, I don't
know if you know that. You know, what
number are we thinking of? and their
twins guess it and it's 69. I haven't
seen anybody using this meme yet.
Please, somebody start using this meme
for this release. But anyway, so that's
WordPress core. Those are all the files
that actually make the basics of
WordPress work. The admin area, the
ability to add posts and pages.
And so there's updates for that. And
there's there's a couple of options you
have in choosing updates. You can have
those you can have it be all manual.
You can have the whole anytime there's a
new any type of update to it whether
it's a sub release or a major release
have it automatically updated. You can
choose to just have security updates
updated automatically and then when the
major releases come out that you know do
that manually. And so that's core.
You've got there's some control there.
When it comes to themes and plugins and
I'll kind of loop those together just
for right now. uh themes and plugins,
there's really only one update option
and you can either do it manually or you
can set it to automatic update. There's
no option at this point of choosing a
security update uh automatic update for
a plug-in and and that that's important
for a lot of reasons and and I'm sure
we'll get into it here. Uh the the main
reason that security is so important is
uh you know there's lots of studies
patch stack and some others have come
out showing
that plugins are the main vulnerability
for security when it comes to WordPress
and we can dive into all of this but it
comes down to the fact that anybody can
write a plugin and it's the power of
WordPress right anybody can create a
plugin it's just a couple of files in a
folder packaged up and you've got a plugin
plugin
And the problem with that is that the
code quality can vary wildly and
unintentionally a plug-in developer
might create a security issue and and
and cause problems for the people that
install that plug-in. So that's kind of
the basic overview of of kind of how
updates work with WordPress and the
options that you have. Um happy to go into
into
>> as as such there is no standard what
defines a security update or not. No, as
like with core we know because you
usually have like six point two for
example 0.1 and the last digit is if
it's a minor update the 0.9 is like it's
new features but I don't think there's
any standard with plugins and teams
there's no no one follows any particular
standards right
>> yeah and I definitely I want to make
sure I preface all of this is I am not a
developer uh I'm not a complete expert
on how the building of plugins works um
my understanding is there there is not a
mechanism right now for security updates
when it comes to plugins. Um and so
that's why we don't have the ability to
have automatic updates just for security
updates. And as far as the mechanics
that go into creating security updates
for plugins, uh you know, I couldn't
really dive into the details on that,
but it does seem like there's work that
could be done there to create an
additional feature um for WordPress plugins.
plugins.
>> Nice. Um so you work with a web host of
course you see a lot of websites what do
you see in the wild in terms of from
your experience do people typically use
auto updates no what's the
>> yeah so traditionally I have not seen a
lot of people using automatic updates
for WordPress and a lot of that is
because historically when you did an
automatic update and if anything went
wrong your site went down
And that's the worst possible situation,
right? The last thing we want is the
white screen of death as it's known in
the WordPress world. And that's just
where you go to your website and all
that comes up is a white screen.
Like worst possible scenario, right, for
you, your clients, their clients, uh
like the immediate way to erode trust in
your domain name is to have a broken
site like that. And so historically,
uh, people have not necessarily used
automatic updates, especially when it
comes to websites that generate some
sort of revenue or income or are
critical, you know, places to get
information for various groups and
whatnot. So, you know, traditionally I
haven't seen a lot of it, but uh, in the
last year I've seen a huge uptake in the
number of people using automatic
Interesting. Interesting. Um, in fact,
this kind of like bring you to the next
question because you did talk about the
auto roll back feature in WordPress. Can
you explain because that hopefully
softens a bit the blow if something
happens, right? Kind of thing.
>> Yeah, exactly. So, uh, last year 2024,
uh, WordPress 6.6, I'm really glad that
they chose an an an easy number for me
to remember. uh the core rolled out
automatic uh roll back for automatic
plug-in updates and the terminology is
all over the place here, but basically
when and and and this was already there
for manual updates. When you did a
manual plug-in update, if there was a
PHP error, the system would catch it and
roll it back and let you know, hey,
there's a problem with that update. As
of 6.6,
it's now been enabled. If you've got
plugins set to automatic update and
there's an issue in that update, a PHP
error issue, uh WordPress will catch
that. It will restore to the prior
version of the word of the plugin and it
will send you an email or the
administrator of the website an email
saying, "Hey, we tried to update this
plugin. It failed. In the meantime,
these other plugins, if there were other
plug-in updates, did did go okay, but
you should look into what's going on
with that other plugin. And so now we've
got this safety net uh so that you can
set uh plugins to automatic update and
kind of forget about it until there's an
issue and then you'll get an email and
then you can deal with it. And so since
this has come out, I have on all of my
personal sites enabled automatic plug-in
updates and for my clients websites,
I've enabled automatic plug-in updates
and life has been wonderful.
>> Nice. Nice. Um, good. It's good that
there's this feature. Um, but as we said
before like there's no actual
uh standard kind of thing which are
security updates and not so it's become
very difficult. However, there are a few
uh WP config direct directives not that
users can specify use, right? Or
>> yeah, no and and and my my memory is
going to fail me uh this morning. Uh but
there there are options you've got and
and so when you go into setting uh
plug-in automatic plug-in updates is
done through the WP admin dashboard. So
it's anybody can go in there who has
admin access to a website. They can turn
this on or off. In wpconfig.php,
there are options to set in there for uh
definitely for core updates. That's
where you can specify if you want
security updates only or if you want the
whole thing to happen. I don't know that
there's necessarily anything you can do
in that file for plug-in updates, but
I'd love to be corrected. I'd love to
have the audience correct me if I'm
wrong. Please, please do. I I'm not
afraid of being corrected.
>> We'll find out. People like to comment
in general. So, especially when someone
is wrong. Yeah.
>> Beautiful. Beautiful. Let's go. Let's
go. Uh, as far as I know, there's
nothing in WP Config you can do for
plug-in updates. Uh, but but like I
said, I'd love to be proven wrong.
>> Good. Considering all of all of this
work that's being done, there's the auto
roll back uh different type of auto
updates um and all these issues, I still
see myself and again going back to your
experience working with the web host. I
still see a lot of people like still
running and yeah also considering the
fact that outdated software especially
plugins is one of the major causes of
affected websites.
I still see a lot of people using like
very very old versions of of plugins
like especially like commerce.
What are the most common reasons usually
here as a web host like because I'm sure
as a web host kind of sometimes you're
in a very difficult position because a
website gets hacked. Oh, it's the web
host but no like you didn't update
there's that kind of back and forth. So
what is the most common reason why
people I don't know it was a very like a
three four year old version of a
plug-in. Yeah, great question. And and
you know, you made an interesting
comment there. As as a web host, right,
we're almost always the first to blame.
>> And that's understandable, right? We're
we're literally we're hosting the
website. You know, it's our
responsibility to make sure that it's up
and running. And so when something goes
wrong with it, uh it makes sense that
we're the first place that you turn to
uh for, hey, what what the heck's going
on with my site? I'm paying you to host
it. It's currently down. And we do see a
lot of issues with outdated plugins, not
only from a security issue, right? Like
there, yes, there's a lot of malware and
hacking going on. Um, and and for the
most part, you know, we've we don't see
a ton of that, but we see a lot of
performance issues. Um, you know, a big
issue that will come up is PHP compatibility.
compatibility.
As a managed host, we really want to
keep uh PHP as current as possible. And
that's for a few reasons. The main one
is performance. It when they come out
with new versions of PHP, it's not just
because they want to have a bigger
number of of the per version of PHP,
right? There's actual improvements being
made to uh the language. And so, as a
host, we really want to encourage people
to use these newer versions because
they're much faster. uh there's there's
a lot of neat features being added to
them and there's additional security
being added to it as well. And with
older versions, right, the you've got uh
versions that still have security
coverage. I think that's going back to
right now 8.2 and 8.3 are in security
coverage. So the
>> I think so. Yes.
>> Right. So the PHP organization is still
maintaining those uh but but time is
coming up and I think 8.0 zero is is
about to fall out or just fell out. And
so we really want people to upgrade
their PHP.
Well, the problem is that older plugins
and older versions of plugins were
written to a older version of PHP. And
so when there's an upgrade to PHP, it
can break those plugins. And so one of
the number one reasons we see people not
updating their plugins is because of the
PHP incompatibility.
And this comes to the plug-in being
incompatible, the theme being incompatible.
incompatible.
There's lots of uh moving parts in
there. Uh and and so we see most oftent
times these sites are just use they're
they're set up for an older version of
PHP. it's no longer supported from a
security perspective and so we have we
have breakage there. Uh Kinsta does
currently support back to PHP 7.4. Um
that's a you know extended security um
update version there. There's a there's
a specific term for that. I'm going to
forget it right now. But >> um
>> um
>> backward compatibility.
>> Yeah. And it's like EOL, end of life.
>> End of life.
>> Yeah. And so we we currently support
back quite a ways. I mean 74 came out it
feels like an eternity ago. It's o like
I feel like it's over five years ago
now. And so you've got sites that are
still only able to run on 7.4 which
means in in a lot of cases they're over
five years out of date which is wild.
And the major reason as I mentioned is
they they don't want to update the
compatibility. A lot of the time it
comes down to the theme and that makes
it it's just really hard because the
theme either maybe they had a custom
theme built five six years ago they
spent a decent amount of money you know
especially for a small business right
spending5 or $10,000 for a theme isn't a
small amount of money
and so having to be faced with well okay
if we want to update this we're going to
have to update the theme is that
developer even around still are they
still working on things like this? Do
they have are they interested in doing
this? Or do you need to hire somebody to
build a whole new theme and and go
through all that process again? Uh and
so we see a lot of sites holding on to
these older versions because, you know,
either they're they don't want to hire
somebody to do it or if they're a
developer, they just they've got other
things they want to be focused on and
and they don't want to be updating older
older versions of things. So, those are
the big ones. You know, I think Woo
Commerce gets uh a lot of flak and has a
lot of trouble. Uh again, I I think a
lot of it is because people put a huge
investment into setting up a WooCommerce
shop on the front end and they they just
don't want to do that again, right? If
they don't have to, they're like, "Well,
wait, why should I spend money on
something I've already spent money on?"
And I think this is where the education
part really comes in from a WordPress
developer or agency
is really helping a a customer
understand that software is a living
organism, right? It's constantly
updating and you need to be ready for
that and and so you need to be preparing
your clients for the fact that hey, in a
few years we're going to need to make
some updates. Uh just be ready for that.
we've and and explain, hey, these are
the things we've done to prepare you for
those eventual updates so that they're
easier and and really help them
understand, hey, there's a process to
this. We've got it all under control.
We'll be here to work with you and and
really stay focused on keeping
everything as up to date as possible.
And it comes back to what we started at
the beginning of this with security. And
uh you know outofdate plugins are are
where the security issues happen
especially when they're so out ofd
they're running on older versions of
PHP. You know there was uh version I
think PHP 5.6 was notoriously
problematic. Uh we got we couldn't get
away from that version of PHP fast
enough. But I still see sites who want
to come to Kinsta that are on 5.6 and
we're like yeah we can't host that here.
We'll migrate it over. We'll test it.
It'll break almost inevitably. I mean,
we'll still always test it, right? There
is a chance, right? We can update the
plugins for you and and maybe it'll
still work. Uh, but you know, g getting
those sites updated and and running on
the current versions of PHP is going to
make your site faster and also more secure.
secure.
>> Interesting. Yeah, I I think WooCommerce
is is I've seen it. I think it's one of
the most notorious for these things
mainly because I've seen businesses who
has built custom applications to support
some native application they have with
their local bank or something. So it's
very difficult um as a web host as you
said like you usually try to help people
of course but how how far do you go as
like there there's obviously even if you
have someone now let's say and they're
selling 7.4 for one fine day within the
next two three years they they will have
to to upgrade somehow to move on. How do
you tackle that? Because it's also it's
good for the customer even though maybe
they don't understand or maybe they find
it frustrating but it's also for your
name like if you keep as a web hosting
you keep a lot of outdated websites.
Yeah. More websites from crystal getting
hacked it's a bad name. So where do you
kind of like stop and say or how do you
handle these type of difficult um
setups? Yeah, it's a great question. Uh,
yeah, I wouldn't necessarily always
describe them as difficult, challenging
perhaps. Um, you know, in the past, we
were much more strict about our PHP
versioning. Uh, we we actually held to
the the PHP consortium's
version control, right? So, when they
stopped supporting a version of PHP, we
stopped supporting a version of PHP.
And that definitely caused uh some very
challenging conversations for our
support team. And so to so now we've
we've adopted kind of supporting a
little bit older versions. 7.4 as I
mentioned before and and 8.0 now are
both past end of life for security
updates. And so we've adopted that to
kind of help those customers. Those
versions of PHP are pretty secure. It's
not like 5.6 six where it was just not
not a good situation from security. Um,
you know, these these newer versions of
PHP are are definitely more secure. So,
we have a little bit less concern uh
with that.
But as these things come up, you know,
one of the things that we really help
push our customers for is, hey, we've
got a new version of PHP coming out. Uh,
we we'd be happy to automatically update
that for you. Uh, if you don't want us
to do that, let us know. And so we're we
we try and as gently uh nudge customers
towards using newer versions of PHP
uh as and and and you know we've got
staging site we've got staging
environments that allow them to create a
copy of their site update the version of
PHP and see what happens. If it if
nothing happens fantastic like you can
now update the live version of your site
to PHP and you're good to go. If there
are issues,
you can either work on those or, you
know, we've got partners. Uh, you know,
this is where it becomes a gray area,
right? So, our support team does have a
scope of support. Uh, it's listed on our
website. You can go look it up.
Basically, the scope of support is we're
here to cover the infrastructure, make
sure it's working, and then after that,
the WordPress site is really your and
your agency or your developers responsibility.
responsibility.
That said, there is a big gray area here
and the last
>> supported web host. Yes. That fine line.
Yeah. Sorry.
>> Yeah. Absolutely. No, no, no. And and
so, you know, we want to we never want
to come off as telling the customer
that's not our problem. Go take care of
it to somebody else.
>> Um we we might need to say that, but
we're going to say it hopefully in a
different way, right? we're hopefully
going to be able to go, hey, you know,
when I'm looking at this, I'm looking at
the logs and you've got a lot of errors
coming up from, you know, these plugins,
right? We can look at the path and we
can see which plugin is throwing the
errors. And so we can help the customer
really kind of identify, hey, look, this
is where you're seeing the problems. Uh,
at this point, you know, you can try
finding a different plugin. um just
getting disabling and getting rid of
that plug-in if you don't need it
anymore and and you know very basic kind
of options. And then if they if they do
you know and we recommend hey take this
information to your developer or if
you're a developer here's this
information work with it and and you
know kind of figure all this out on your
own or we have an extensive partner
program. We have a lot of agencies that
we work with and we're happy to make
referrals if the customer is open to it
and put them in touch with somebody who
can help with getting the, you know, the
PHP updated, their plugins updated and
really figure this out and and find a
path forward. And so
I think it's an important distinction
that we're not interested in becoming
developers. Kinsta is not here to
develop your website. That's what our
amazing partners are for. That's who we
want to host. We We love having agencies
and developers host with us. We provide
amazing tools for them to be able to
work on the websites from staging
environments to application performance
monitoring and all of that. And so we
want to be the place where everybody
comes and works on the websites, but
we're not going to become an agency.
We're not going to become a developer.
And I say that to hopefully assure
agencies and developers that hey, when
you work with Kinsta, we're not here to
take your business. We're here to work
with you. And and so it becomes a it
becomes a dance for sure. Uh because we
w we want everybody to be running uh
very performant and secure websites. Uh
but at the same time, we're not going to
start touching your code and making
changes to all of that. So there's a
there's a there's a a serious balance
definitely in play, but we're always
here to to work as as close as we can
with our customers and and give them as
much help as we can.
>> Of course, and it's never easy taking
over someone's code, let alone if it's
five, six, seven years old running on
some very old version of of PHP. Granted
um web host in terms of updates because
as we've seen if you look at all the
reports the two major causes of websites
being hacked WordPress websites are user
issues and updates outdated software. Do
you think web hosts have a
responsibility or can do more like to
maybe can be a bit you said like
yourself like previously you were a bit
more strict when it comes to PHP now
kind of you're a bit more supporting
more like older versions. Do you think
if web hosts would be more strict or I I
don't know have some sort of other tools
or programs it would help fix that
problem slowly slowly maybe users would
be more encouraged to update more
frequently. Do you think web host play a
role like in in this in this whole thing?
thing?
>> I think it's a great question. I I I
absolutely think hosts play a role,
right? We set the tone. We allow the PHP
versions that you're going to to run and
operate. Um, you know, I mentioned that
we're we're um supporting older
versions, PHP 7.4.
There are some hosts that, you know,
they're still supporting 56 and and even
older versions, right? So,
>> that one was airpriced.
>> Even as lenient as we are being, we're
still being pretty strict. And so I I
see and and we also are constantly
suggesting and urging our customers to
upgrade to the latest version of PHP. As
soon as there is a new stable version of
PHP, we make it available so that you
just go into your My Kinsta dashboard,
you go into tools and choose the PHP
version and you can update it right
there. It might even be in our API now.
You can build your own dashboards and
and interface with Kinsta's um uh
control panel through the API and update
PHP that may be there already. And so I
I absolutely believe that hosts play a
role in this because we're the ones who
set the excuse me, we set the infrastructure
infrastructure
that everything else is then run on. And
so if we're supporting very outof-date
versions of PHP,
it's allowing those customers to stay on
older versions of their plugins and stay
in a less secure situation. And so, you
know, another thing that we do, pardon
me, let me get some little water.
>> You know, so another thing that we do is
we do send out vulnerability reports.
So, we monitor uh all of the sites on
our system uh for uptime monitoring, but
then we're also looking at the plugins
that are installed. And as uh new
updates come about vulnerabilities,
we will identify the plugins on our
system and we will reach out to our
customers and let them know, hey, your
site or these sites that you have with
us are using this plugin. there's a
vulnerability on it and we need you to
take action and get this updated. And so
we're very proactive in working with our
customers to make sure that they're
updating their plugins um and and
identifying specific plugins that have
issues that need to be updated. In
addition to that, we've actually built
our own uh automatic update system. So
when you're in the MKIsta dashboard,
you can from the MKIsta dashboard enable
WordPress automatic plug-in updates.
And so that utilizes the existing
automatic update feature that WordPress
has built in. That's no that that's
absolutely free, but we make it really
easy for you to do it from the
dashboard. We have an additional update
service that we we do charge money for.
Um, it's a premium service though and so
with that one, we're actually taking
snapshots of the site before and after
the update and we're doing visual
regression testing. And so we're
catching issues that might happen that
aren't PHP error related. Maybe you have
some inline CSS that a plug-in is
controlling and when you update that
plugin, it it breaks that CSS for some
reason. And and so the site's still
running. there's no PHP error, no white
screen of death, but the site doesn't
look right, right? Because the CSS
broke. So, with visual regression
testing, we're going to catch that.
We're going to revert it back to the
working version and then let you know,
hey, we just had this issue. Here's the
screenshots so you can see what
happened. Uh, go and get to work on
that. So, as a host, we're we're rolling
out additional tools to help our
customers keep their site updated and
and you know, really avoid these
security issues. So, yeah, back to your
original question. I absolutely think
hosts play a part in this um and
enabling it and it it becomes that fine
line of you know being a host versus
being a agency or developer and and so
we try and balance that line as best we
can. Yeah, it's also a fine line because
if you it's it's like you want customers
of course like any other web host.
>> Uh you want to provide a good service.
However, if you are really strict, there
will always be another web host who
supports an earlier version. So you can
only yeah you need to kind of we have
that problem by the way with the
plug-in. Okay.
>> Sometimes we have like uh we have the
with our plugins we try to bump up the
minimum version of PHP we support
>> but you have to find that kind of like
fine line because you you need the
latest version even for us because
coding becomes easier much more
efficient and stuff and you can provide
much more functionality. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But yeah how many people are still
running on the old version? It's a very
yeah it's a very delicate situation. You
don't you cannot just yeah just update
the district because yeah you also lose
users quite frankly. This is a great
point and and I love hearing this is
stuff that I want to hear more about is
talking to our plug-in partners and
learning more about you know the the
struggles that you're experiencing or
the challenges. So in those cases do you
ever reach out to hosts who are
supporting very old versions of PHP and
just ask them hey you know have you
thought about not supporting this
anymore or do you do you do any dialogue
like that?
>> We've never but it's actually a very
good recommendation. I've never tried it
maybe. Yeah, that's that's a good point
as you said maybe it's a whole uh kind
of almost like this complete circle
because host as you said uh set the tone
>> um and yeah maybe if if there are more
developers who are pushing the host like
listen why are you still supporting 5.6
six for example when uh even 8.1 is
almost end of life maybe that helps push
everyone forward I think it was also a
problem with WordPress late in the last
few versions they really bumped up the
minimum version of PHP but up until a
few years ago it was like a really some
some very early version of PHP so people
were kind of like okay if WordPress this
was a problem for us as well if
WordPress is supporting a very old
version you kind of find it find it
difficult to support a more recent
version because like people yeah but
WordPress still does it why why
shouldn't you you know so yeah it's it's
a very there are a lot of of moving
parts and a lot of people kind of a lot
of services and different things
involved in this whole process and the
problem is by talking to you clearly the
problem when you start picturing these
things clearly the problem of updates is
way more complex way more complicated
than we think it's not as simple as yeah
switch automatic updates and everyone is
happy kind of thing
>> no absolutely great point and and I
think you know staying on this thread a
little bit I love it when our plug-in
developers ers and plug-in partners
reach out to us whether you know there's
a compatibility issue. Um maybe there's
a configuration issue. Sometimes there's
a an engine X configuration that needs
to be done for a plug-in to work a
little bit better. Uh and and I think
you know most of the time we're we're
okay with that. uh we just need to hear
like if the if the developer the plug-in
developer reaches out to us lets us know
uh you know we love to work through
these situations because like you said
there's a full circle right it's and
it's like chicken before the egg kind of
issue right
>> exactly if
>> who's going to start
>> right and it does like you pointed out
if WordPress is still supporting a
really old version of PHP that almost
sets the standard for everyone else uh
but I think the host can really take
charge merge here because at the end of
the day there's no WordPress site
without it being hosted somewhere. So,
you know, the buck kind of stops with
the host in a lot of ways. And from a
host perspective, the more current
version of PHP that we're running, the
more efficient it's going to be on our
system. So, our cost should hopefully go
down. Um, and the speed is going to go
up, right? And so the customer's site is
going to just run faster which I mean
that's that's what we're striving for at
all the times right so >> exactly
>> exactly
>> but I I think that there is definitely
um a lot of interaction that can happen
between the plug-in developer the host
the WordPress core right so we just um
had word campus US and I spoke there
about sponsoring contributors and one of
the big things that I brought up in
there was strategic like so pract
technical reasons for sponsoring, right?
So, traditionally
there's more of an ethical argument of,
hey, you should support open source
software because it's the right thing to
do. I have nothing uh against that
argument. I completely agree with it.
The problem is businesses are a little
bit deaf to that, right? They they they
hear money.
>> And so, the practical reasons that I
kind of outlined were strategic,
operational, and second order benefits.
And I think in this case, it's a
strategic thing, right? So, if you're a
plug-in developer,
maybe there's something in WordPress,
right? Getting WordPress to support
security versions for plugins. Maybe
that's something you want to start
sponsoring contributors for to develop
that out. Um, you know, and and and like
performance and speed and all of these
things. The more that we are
contributing to whether directly or
through sponsored contributors to the
WordPress core project, the more we can
shape the project towards these things
that that we're experiencing in our businesses.
businesses.
>> Yeah. No, rightly said. In fact, I spoke
to a few company owners in the past who
have contributed a lot for example
towards Gutenberg when it was first
launched. And that's why it when you
think about it does make sense because
first of all you're helping the
WordPress project of course the open
source but also helps them even as a
business you're at the forefront because
you're helping shaping what you'd like
WordPress to be and then of course your
plug is is compatible with that. So
yeah, interesting. No, there's
definitely and as you said, it's a full
circle. Everyone needs the it's I think
it's always boils down to communication,
developers talking to communities
talking to web host, web host talking to
developers, developers talking to the
contributors. Of course, it's it's just
Yeah. one one big c. Yeah. Good. One big
network of people. >> Absolutely.
>> Absolutely.
>> We we spoke a lot about the auto updates
and and and you automation like the
staging websites. In fact, I'd like to
ask you a question as because for
smaller websites, it's it's much easier,
but I'm sure you've seen like some very
complex WCommerce even if even though
they are running the latest versions of
everything, they are still nervous about
auto updates.
>> Um, what's the best or best practice
setup to to to install the updates, test
them, especially if you have a complex website?
website?
>> Yeah. No, really great question. And I
actually there was a I did a webinar a
few weeks ago, maybe a month ago or two
months ago with a bunch of codable
experts and we we were talking about
this exact thing and and going into how
they handle these updates and one of the
uh guests on the panel was talking about
Woo Commerce specifically and how first
of all there's no way they would ever
use automatic updates for a Woo Commerce
site and and I can't argue against that,
right? If it is a site that is
generating income and orders are being
placed, the last thing you want to have
happen is something where the payment
gateway stops working. >> Exactly.
>> Exactly.
>> And and and now you've got people that
are placing orders but it's not going
anywhere or you're fulfilling orders but
you're not collecting money. Total
nightmare situation. You want to avoid
this at all poss at all costs. So
there's a couple of ways to approach
this. If you're the site owner and you
have no interest in being a developer uh
and and doing all of this work, the
first thing you need to do is you need
to hire a developer or an agency to just
help you with this. Um because there
there are a lot of moving parts. There's
a lot of things to check. Payment
gateways, form submissions, uh you know,
the list goes on. Uh also with Woo
Commerce, the complexity gets really
big. you have the Woo Commerce core
plugin, right? That's just the
beginning. There are so many additional
extension plugins for Woo Commerce that
it makes you dizzy, right? But but
they're necessary uh for you know
shipping and taxes and you know label
making and the list goes on and on and
so there's a lot of moving parts in
there. So my first step is is if you're
a site owner like get a professional to
help you with this. Now, when you get
that professional, you should be able to
quiz them about their process for
updating the website. And there's a few
things that you should be listening for.
The first thing is staging environments.
None of this work should ever be done in
the live environment of the site. Uh
because that's when that's when you have
problems as we talked about. Like if you
update a plugin and it breaks on the
live site, your site is broken. Worst
possible situation. So you want to make
sure they're using staging environments.
That's just a copy of your website.
Ideally, it's at the host and that way
everything is nice and contained at the
host. Uh it'll generate a um temporary
staging URL. So the developer can
actually share the URL with you, the
customer, or if you're a developer, you
can share it with your customer and they
can see the work and and verify, hey,
this looks good. Uh usually for plug-in
updates, hopefully you don't need to do
that uh level of showing the work, but
it's an option. It's there. Um and then
from there, uh they should really have
like a checklist of how they're going to
go about updating the website, what
order they're going to update the
plugins in. Sometimes updating Woo
Commerce first causes problems and
breaks all the other plugins. Sometimes
updating the other plugins first causes
problems with Woo Commerce. And so
having an experienced developer who can
understand how everything's kind of been
put together, hopefully the developer
you had put together the website is this
person and you're still have a good
working relationship with them. Um, and
they they know exactly how to update the
site. When you're hiring somebody to
build your site, right, these are the
things you need to be talking about
before you've completed building the
website. What does maintenance look
like? How often are they going to be
updating and checking for updates? I
would say you want at least once a
month. Uh if if it's a serious site and
it's making you some serious coin, you
should be having somebody look at it if
not weekly, hopefully daily, if not
weekly. You know, my I'm getting my
words a little mixed up here, but they
should be looking at it almost all the
time. um because they're the one they're
basically the GM, the general manager of
your website. You you want to make sure
that they're looking at everything
that's going on in there and and
testing. So the having a staging
environment, having an order of
operation for making the updates, having
an order of operation for testing the
site after the updates have done. So you
want to make sure that orders can be
placed. You want to make sure that you
can charge the credit card. uh you want
to make sure that you're getting all the
details for uh you know fulfilling the
order and you know your taxes are
getting calculated correctly. All of
these need to be checked every time that
there's an update because if any of
those gets me missed you're you're
you're going to have unhappy customers
and that of course is the number one
thing we want to avoid. So, you know, I
I think to recap here,
when you are building your website or
having somebody build your website,
maintenance should be an immediate
discussion. Uh, in the discovery call,
you should be covering, okay, what do
you guys do maintenance? Um, I would
question hiring somebody who's not going
to do maintenance on your website
because as we've covered this entire uh
episode, updates are a reality when it
comes to any type of software and
especially with WordPress where there's
not a lot of standards as far as
security updates for plugins go and
there's also a lot of variety between
the hosts that you're working with. And
so having somebody who's going to be
able to handle maintenance and talk you
through all of this uh is going to
really be something you want to focus on
early. Short of that, if you overlooked
that, maybe you hired your cousin's
brother or something, that's probably
still your cousin. Uh like you know, and
and they built the site and then they
disappeared, right? They they they went
and did it.
>> It's a very common Yeah. It's a very common
common
>> Exactly. And so now you're in that
situation of, okay, now I need to find
somebody to do maintenance for me. You
know, my first recommendation, reach out
to your host, see if they've got an
agency partner program and they can help
put you in touch with somebody. The host
is very interested in your website being
successful, right? Because if your
website is successful, you're going to
keep hosting with the host. So, the
first thing I would recommend do is
reach out to your host and and ask them
if they've got any recommendations,
anybody they can refer you to. Uh, short
of that, you know, the WordPress
community is amazing. Uh, get into the
make Slack, start talking with people,
ask questions. You know, there's there's
a support area. There's, you know,
there's places for you to ask these
questions better than others. Don't go
into core and ask people, you know, what
agency you would recommend them to. If
you get an answer, it's probably not
going to be super pleasant.
>> Um, so, you know, be aware of all of
this. The post status is a really great
community to be a part of. There's a lot
of agencies in there. Uh, the the
WordPress community is amazing. Go to a
word camp.
>> Uh, you know, go go to a word camp, meet
people like us and talk to us and and
you know, we can put you in touch with
somebody right there. Hey, oh yeah, this
person does Woo Commerce. They'll be
able to help you out. So, uh, there's a
lot of options out there. The worst
thing you can do, the last thing you can
do is ignore it. And I see this
>> very regularly where people are coming
onto the Kinsta platform
and we can't host them because the site
does not work with at least PHP74
and and they get very frustrated, right?
They're in that situation where somebody
built the site, they've disappeared. Uh
the host that they're on right now maybe
isn't doing the best job for them.
They're not responsive in support.
They're running older versions of PHP.
And so they want to move to a to a
better place, but they can't because
they didn't think about maintenance
upfront. So start thinking about this
stuff now. Start talking about it now
and uh and it'll all get better.
>> Nice. I like the fact that you mentioned
to hire a professional because it's the
same in security. I mean like we we as
in like the community we sell WordPress
as like it's a very easy to use software
which is don't get me wrong however we
sell it as if like Johnny the baker who
just has in the evening likes to set up
a website can also maintain a website
and if his business or her business
grows and yeah they start having
thousands of orders per month the real
the real reality is that yeah you need
someone professional to help you with
this website because most probably uh
you have much more experience running
the business the bakery but running a
website is totally different. So I I
like that because very few people
actually mention that oh it's easy five
minutes set up. It's true but as the
website or the business starts growing
the game changes the there are levels to
to to to how complex a website can be
and yeah how or how easy it can be. So
it's a very good tip. I I've actually I
don't think I've ever heard it much
before but it's good that you mentioned it.
it.
>> Oh excellent. Well and I think you know
I think this ties into open source in
general right. I think there's a
misconception with the general public of
oh it's open source it's free there's no cost
cost
>> and it's really important that we
distinguish for people to understand yes
uh open source software is free to
download and install and you can look at
the code and make changes to it you have
freedom to do that so it's free in that
sense but it is not free in in the sense
that it. You don't need anybody um to
pay somebody to actually work on it. You
have to have a host. Um if you if you're
okay with setting up a web server and
connecting it to the public internet and
dealing with
>> the fun that comes with that, then then
in that way, you know, but that's going
to take time, right? You're you're not
having to spend time instead of going to
a web host and saying, "Hey, here's some
money each month. Take care of that for
me. Thank you." You should also be
thinking of it in terms of a developer
or an agency working with you to really
build the site out. When you start out,
maybe yes, you can do it yourself and
and it's really simple to maintain, but
over time you're you're going to want to
focus on other parts of your business
unless you unless you become an agency.
Maybe you decide to become an agency,
but but most people don't want to become
an agency, right? They want to run their
business. And um I think there there can
be this tendency to shy away from paying
for things around WordPress. I'm sure as
a a plug-in developer, you run into this
a lot.
>> Um and so as a business, right, we need
to be okay with that. Hey, some people
aren't going to want to uh pay for
premium hosting. Some people aren't
going to want to pay for a premium
plug-in. And that's fine. uh the people
that that really want to have a business
and that want to be serious with all of
this are going to understand that it
does cost money to make these things
happen and that when you do invest into
your site uh you get way more out of it.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think raising awareness
about this issue is also important. We
do get um we do for example with our
plugins. We support the free plugins
over the web.org forums which is great.
H but onetoone emails is part of the
premium. it's not the first I receive an
email like I'm sorry like we cannot
support you please go to the forum
because you're using the free plug-in
and yeah they get angry they post some
some some it's like and they need to
understand like um yeah there is someone
maintaining the plugin and like to get
support there's someone putting the
hours to support you via email like so
why why would they do it for free you
know so there's there's this as you said
there's this fine balance yes it's free
actually I think many many especially
many developers I've seen it a lot given
a lot of extra hours just to support on
the forums because you don't have to
quite frankly and you don't have to have
a free plugin but why not you know help
a bit do a bit your your part it helps
after all any free plugin if it's good
it's going to help the community help
the WordPress grow because there are
more options in WordPress but yeah we
have to accept as well that yeah nothing
as such is free free as in no one is
going to come and manage your website
for free it's it's the reality of life
>> one last one last question before we end
this episode um there a few a few
actually I know quite a few people who
have a website and they rarely log into
their website because of course they
don't need to maybe like once every two
months or so what can we do because
right now I know most web host send an
email when there are plug-in updates
related to security
>> but like what or what can WordPress
score do for example like when there are
plugin updates because many people they
log in once every two three months like
oh I need to update like 20 plugins all
of a sudden
>> yeah really great question I you know
I'm still pretty shocked at how little
WordPress is promoting the fact that
there is an auto roll back feature for
plug-in updates, both manually and
automatic updates. I think we could do a
lot better job of marketing this to the
general public. Uh I think that's, you
know, one of the main reasons I gave my
talk at Word Camp Europe.
>> That's what I heard about it, by the
way. And we're developers. We're quite
involved in the community. And that's
the first time I Oh, what's this talk?
Let me go. It's that's that's where I
head at the moment.
>> The the feedback that I got from people
who are, you know, very involved in the
community who are like, "Wait, I didn't
know about this."
>> Like it it's still it's shocking to me,
right? And so I think we need to do a
better job of marketing this. We need to
do a better job of marketing WordPress
in general. That's kind of a new thing.
I'm I'm I not a new thing but it's
something that I'm really interested in
talking to more people about because I
want to talk to more enterprise type
businesses right who are using other
CMS's and the reason that they're
avoiding WordPress is because of this um
opensource and the lack of security
aspects of it and the reality is it's
very secure in fact it's more secure
because anybody can look at the code and
point out hey that's not secure and then
we fix it right whereas Whereas with
these closed systems,
>> you have no idea. It's a black box. We
don't we don't know what's going on.
>> Um and so I think this is a huge selling
point of WordPress, right? Is hey, it's
got automatic updates. If you have a
brochureware website, you're just doing
a general marketing website,
consider just having the automatic
updates on. Uh, so I think I think we
can definitely do a better job of just
talking about all of this, promoting it
more, making it maybe easier for people
to enable it. You know, right now you
have to go to the plugins page. You have
to either select individually or select
all and then say update. Um, you know,
maybe we have where the core update
page, you know, appears and and we have
the notification from core, hey, there's
an update available.
uh maybe we incorporate plugins into
that page better and just make it a much
easier option. Hey, do you want to
enable all your plugins to automatic
update? click this one button
>> and you know maybe also during setup of
WordPress we have hey how how involved
do you want to be with maintaining this
website you know oh I'm on it I'm going
to be creating staging environments uh
total manual or the other end of the
spectrum oh my god I don't even want to
think about this stuff and they choose
that option and then that enables the
automatic updates so you know I know
that there's been discussion about
improving in the onboarding of
WordPress. And I think this could be a
really key feature to add into there and
just make it really easy for users. Um
because you can always undo automatic
updates, right? And the fact that
there's this automatic roll back now, it
it should be seen as just really safe to
do it unless, like we mentioned, you
have a very complex e-commerce Woo
Commerce website. In those cases, you
want to be a little bit more hands-on
depending on how much uh revenue it's
generating for you.
>> Exactly. Very well said. I like the fact
that you mentioned the on boarding
because even like when you saw a plugin,
it would be nice to have a prompt. Would
you like to enable automatic updates?
Because at the moment, it's not enabled
by default and you have to go to the
side. It's a small link enable auto
update. So yeah, that makes a
difference. Thank you very much, Roger.
Thank you for sharing um all your
knowledge. Um, can you please tell
people where they can find you or talk
to you?
>> Oh, yeah. Absolutely. So, I I'm on
LinkedIn. I love being on LinkedIn.
Reach out to me there, but interact with
me. Like, leave comments. Let's talk.
Let's have a relationship and then maybe
like we'll connect and maybe we can DM
and talk about business. But I I've got
a post actually coming out really soon
about not being awkward. Uh, and so
don't be awkward. Like, just talk to me. I post a lot. Leave some comments there.
I post a lot. Leave some comments there. Let's let's have a relationship. I'm
Let's let's have a relationship. I'm going to a lot of events. I'll be at
going to a lot of events. I'll be at Brighton SEO San Diego at the end of
Brighton SEO San Diego at the end of September. I'll be at Digital Collegium
September. I'll be at Digital Collegium at the beginning of October. Uh West
at the beginning of October. Uh West Slope Startup Weeks in Durango.
Slope Startup Weeks in Durango. >> I'll be at Cloudfest USA in November
>> I'll be at Cloudfest USA in November just attending. Say hello. Digital
just attending. Say hello. Digital Summit Series in Dallas. And then 2026,
Summit Series in Dallas. And then 2026, uh it's going to be all over the place.
uh it's going to be all over the place. I hope to run into you uh at an event
I hope to run into you uh at an event soon.
soon. >> Yeah. No, no, you clearly have a very
>> Yeah. No, no, you clearly have a very busy agenda, but I'd like to highlight
busy agenda, but I'd like to highlight one point that you mentioned as well,
one point that you mentioned as well, just to add to it. Go to a word camp. It
just to add to it. Go to a word camp. It I have made so many friends. I've
I have made so many friends. I've learned so much at it's priceless,
learned so much at it's priceless, honestly. And the the price the ticket
honestly. And the the price the ticket prices at Word Camp are peanuts. 20 30.
prices at Word Camp are peanuts. 20 30. It's it's nothing. So, no, definitely go
It's it's nothing. So, no, definitely go to Word Camps. Thank you very much,
to Word Camps. Thank you very much, Roger. Thanks a lot for your time. And
Roger. Thanks a lot for your time. And yeah, maybe hopefully I'll see you at
yeah, maybe hopefully I'll see you at some word camp.
some word camp. >> You're welcome, Robert. Thank you so
>> You're welcome, Robert. Thank you so much for having me on. And yes, let's
much for having me on. And yes, let's run into each other soon.
run into each other soon. >> Thanks. Thanks. And thanks everyone for
>> Thanks. Thanks. And thanks everyone for following. Thank you. Bye-bye.
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