[Music]
Welcome back to Rocky Man Residential, a
podcast by MCM Collective. I'm Kelly
McBartlet and today we have a really
interesting topic that doesn't get
discussed a lot in our industry. Uh, and
I'll turn it over to you, Blake.
>> Yeah. Hi, I'm Blake McBartlet and yeah,
let's just start off with tell us a
little about yourselves and your practice.
practice.
>> Sure. So, I'm Lindsay. This is Ben. We
are the owners and therapists at Evolve
Counseling Services here in Port
Collins. and we actually met back in the
day in our clinical counseling program. Um,
Um,
>> very romantic, very patient, right?
Yeah. And not patience. Yeah,
>> it's debatable. But, uh, yeah, we, um,
kind of headed off and after we
graduated, we started dating and
eventually got married. So, um,
throughout the course of our
relationship, we have worked in a
variety of clinical settings. We've done
things like outpatient therapy. We've
been in treatment centers. We've been in
hospitals. So we have a lot of clinical
experience through those um that variety
of settings and we decided to move
toward private practice several years
ago and so we went ahead and proceeded
with setting up our private practice and
um have really enjoyed that work. So at
Evolve we specialize in helping people
with depression and anxiety and we
provide individual therapy to folks that
are 16 years old and and up. And uh we
operate from a CBT perspective. So
cognitive behavioral therapy um which is
a really solid evidence-based modality
and uh seems to be helpful for a lot of
people. So that's just a little bit
about us.
>> Awesome. Ben, same thing, same focus,
same area.
>> Yep. Yep. Very much. We we really want
to develop like a cohesive focus as a
practice like like this is what we do.
This is what we specialize in. Sometimes
one of the troubles that people run into
when they're picking a therapist is like
they they're looking at like psychology
today and it's like, "Oh, this person
does everything like and it's it's hard
to pick." So, we want we want people to
know like what we do and that they're in
the right place.
>> Awesome. You said you focus on CBT.
>> Yeah. Cognitive behavioral therapy um
applied to folks with depression and
anxiety primarily.
>> Perfect. Well, um we're kind of taking a
unique approach of like buying and
selling because it is a big deal
sometimes filled with lots of emotions.
So, thank you for being here today and
kind of bringing your lens to the
conversation. So, oftent times we refer
to the D's in real estate and not
talking about those D's. Um, we're
focusing on diapers, uh, divorce, death,
diamonds, kind of like really highs and
lows of real estate. So, um, how do you
think therapy or being in tune with like
you as a person would be helpful when
going through these home purchase or sell?
sell?
>> Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for
clarifying what we were talking about.
>> Yes. Um yeah, it's funny. Um you know,
we we were thinking about this, you
know, a little bit in advance for today
and something that came to mind there.
It's kind of famous. You may see it
floating around the internet from time
to time, but it is the uh it's a a life
stressor scale. It's a rank order of
like 40 common things that people go
through. And um it's I think it's by
Holmes and Ray.
>> Yeah, if if you care to Google it. But
um really quick, everything that you
name there, all all of these D's, all of
these things, they're all on there. And
a lot of things that are um even things
beyond those those those big ones are on
there, right? Like things like if you're
um if someone's, you know, starting
work, ending work, if someone's moving
for a job, if you're dissolving your
community because you're moving. So, um
I think I was looking at it and there
was like there's like around like 15
things hit on this stressor scale. So,
it is a big deal. Um it is one of the
bigger things that people go through.
Moving itself is on there. So, um, so I
guess to answer your question, like how
does this really, you know, relate to
therapy? How could therapy support this
or just having yourself in good order,
um, really therapy works in a lot of
ways, like you know, subtle and more
obvious? Um, you know, I think it's
therapy is kind of most famous for like
you can come in there and like bleed off
some emotion, right? Like you want this
to go out and, you know, stay in a
place, you know, with your therapist so
it's not kind of coming into the room at
closing day or when you're making
decisions. um you know therapy more
maybe is a little lesser known but I
would say all the more important of like
like just providing skills right it's
it's skills and insights of patterns
right if if you understand how your
patterns play out around stress well you
have the opportunity to intervene right
and have them play out differently and
there are very learnable skills that you
can take with you for life from therapy
um you know these are things that help
you you know regulate your nervous
system think you know in a more helpful
way about what's going on and yeah I
would say you know please chime in if
I'm missing anything but That's that's
really how therapy could show up for this.
this.
>> Definitely. And I think it's important
to recognize too on that life stressor
scale. It's things that are obviously
stressful and maybe more negative in
nature, but it's also the positive
things. You know, getting married is
generally a happy thing, but it's still
stressful. Um, having a baby is
generally a happy thing, but it's still
stressful. So, it's not just the
negative stuff that happens in um life
that might promote or facilitate a real
estate transaction. it's also the good
stuff. And so to just be aware of that
and how that might be affecting you um
is is really important. So, uh therapy
can certainly help recognize um if
there's any adverse effects from good
stuff that happens. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So, a lot of times like these good
things and moving like it's a transition
of usually you multiple hits on your
list, right? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Let's talk about how much I mean you
guys have bought and sold homes. um that
takes a lot of time and it's it's a
disruptor. Um can you talk about maybe
some skills that our clients can take to
like have a more productive day and like
add this added stress and time?
>> Yeah. Yeah, you're so right. It's it's
so much time. It's so much preparation.
Um it can be very draining. And I think
on a very basic level, it's really
important to not forget to do the little
things. And what I mean by that is kind
of like basic self-care around you need
to be sleeping, you need to be eating,
you need to be exercising, you need to
have downtime. Those are the things that
we find slip early on in the process. Um
they're they're easy to just shove to
the background and deal with the
stressor at hand. So um remaining
steadfast in those self-care practices
is incredibly important and making time
for those, not neglecting them. So, I
think that's the biggest thing kind of
most easiest and and obvious thing to to
tackle. But, um, other things that you
might recommend.
>> No, I really like your take on self-care
there. And self-care can be like fairly,
you know, misunderstood. People hear
like self-care and they're like, "Spa
day, let's go." And there's nothing
wrong with that.
>> But I mean, French fries. Yeah. Or
French fries. You're right. So, it can
be, you know, relaxation or self
soothing can be part of that, but it
really is like what are the things that
help you be like well constituted and in
good order, right? How can I be in the
best emotional shape to take on, you
know, like like the next stressful step
in this? And there's a lot of research
in mental health that says like positive
emotion is the best thing to help
counteract negative emotion, right? If
I'm already feeling decent going into
it, the ups and downs are a little
easier to take. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So, but yeah. Yeah. I mean, the skills
are are numerous, right? Um, cognitive
behavioral therapy does a lot of like it
like it's really saying like what we
think or how we interpret what's
happening to us really means everything,
right? And it's a little bit
mind-blowing sometimes. we go over with,
you know, with people in therapy, we're
like, objectively speaking, nothing in
life is good or bad. And they're like,
no, no way. It's like, no, it's just
something that's happening, right? Like
what you make of it is really kind of
what what modulates that. Um, and it's
something that isn't really talked a lot
about society, but people tend to learn
in therapy.
>> Mhm. Yeah. Just just kind of playing off
that idea, part of what CBT would teach
is, you know, how are you interpreting
the uh process of buying the home? If
the thought process is this is so
stressful, I can't do this. This is
going to be a disaster and you're taking
that kind of catastrophic um look at it,
well, you're going to feel those
emotions. So, CBT would teach to um kind
of take a more objective approach. Let's
really look at the situation and examine
some counterarguments to those beliefs.
Let's create a narrative that's more
realistic, more objective. And what we
find is that that helps tone down the
stressful emotions. So, um, it's very
counterintuitive for us as humans. We
tend to just believe what we think and
we tend to go negative in our thinking.
Um, so it's it's it takes a little bit
of time and practice and consistency to
learn how to see um, situations
differently and interpret them as more objective.
objective.
>> Yep. I've been a therapist for 15 years
and I'm still working. Yeah. So that sat
for a while.
>> Kelly, wouldn't you say though like when
people come to us a lot of times they've
been to an open house
>> or there's like a significant trigger.
They're like they're going like zero to
100 right away. Would you agree?
>> Yeah. Well, and I um I was as you two
were talking I was thinking about this a
little bit more and um you know
typically the the the transaction lasts
about 30 days, sometimes 60 days.
>> Um and so those stressors might be
magnified during that time frame. Um,
but the research shows that people start
working for a home 9 months in advance
of when they actually end up at that
open house or reach out to one of us. So
what my question was is if people are
starting at nine months in advance
before they reach out reach out to us,
are there some things they could be
looking for that might be indicating
that they're experiencing stress or
anxiety and then say, should I call a
therapist right now before I'm at the
open house and under contract and things
seem really stressful?
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think some of the the big
signs to look for is um is there
impairment going on in in their world?
So, what I mean by that is, you know,
they're they're feeling stressed, but,
you know, maybe they can't show up to
work like they used to. Um, they're
distracted, they can't concentrate. Um,
those are little indicators. Maybe
there's some impairment in
relationships. They're so stressed that
they're snapping at their partner. Now,
there's more conflict. Um, they're
neglecting self-care. That could be a
little indicator. Um, so
>> more French fries.
>> The French fries.
>> Yes. Donuts, French fries, junk food.
Yeah. their eating habits have shifted.
Yeah, that could be an indicator. So,
other other little subtle signs.
>> Yeah, you you covered a lot of the big
ones. I was think like sleep disruption
is a big thing, right? When when we're
we we tend to do this thing um it can
become a little obsessive, right? But
it's like when we have a problem or
something that's uncertain, like where
am I going to move or is this going to
work out? We tend to just like comb it
over again and again in our minds. Um
and sometimes we do that just thinking
like, well, if I go over it like an 18th
time, maybe I'll get an answer, but it
tends not to go that way, right? So, so
you know that that or just just the kind
of stress or tension can keep people up
at night. Um, it could be bodily tension
as well, right? The the mind body
connections just just kind of
inseparable. And sometimes people just,
you know, um, we've definitely had
clients that are like, I feel it here. I
get this knot in my shoulder and right
when when it's getting the best of me
>> physical illness.
>> That could even be I mean it could play
hand in hand. They might be scrolling
Zillow because they can't sleep
>> because of the give out rush. That might
be an indicator like I'm feeling my time
distracted. at the middle of the night
scrolling Zulu and maybe I should reach
out to a third.
>> Yeah, absolutely.
>> So, you're not healthy to look at
building planes at 3:00 a.m. is what I'm
hearing. Yeah. Asking for a friend. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, so what are some healthy ways of
dealing with like this roommate? Like,
how do you like I mean, how do you turn
it off? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
If if we had a a magic answer, I would
certainly share it that you can't
necessarily stop your thoughts or stop
the rumination from happening, but you
can put some containment around it. So,
one of the more go-to techniques around
this um is called the thought corral.
And basically what it means is you allow
the rumination to happen, but you put it
in a corral. You essentially designate
times throughout the day that's 20
minutes where you are going to sit down
and you are going to stew and you're
going to obsess and you are going to
just go for it as hard as you can. But
when that 20 minutes is up, you do your
best to mindfully attend to the other
things in your day. So you put some
containment around it, but you let your
thoughts do what they want to do. Um
because there is no just turning it off.
>> So that would like some people are
really into time blocking. Yeah,
>> this would be like adding an appointment
on your calendar to
>> like stress and worry. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> No, it it sounds funny, but that we we
you know, a lot of people really do have
success with that. And kind of the one
of the other ways it works is is like if
you find yourself wanting to ruminate,
you get to go, "No, I I I have a place
to do it later." Right? It helps you
kind of like delay because you you know
you're going to get to it. Mhm.
>> Um it can also be helpful too with like
ruminative thinking is is like um a lot
of people ruminating, they're looking
for certainty, right? It's a very
uncertain situation. I don't know where
I'm going to move, when I'm going to
move, how much it's going to cost, is it
going to work out, what's my house going
to sell for? Um and and you really can't
get answers to those till you get there.
So it instead of like trying to figure
that out in like a really certain
certain terms, it's probably better to
ask like, well, how would I cope if
something I feared is happening? What's
one small thing I can do today to move
towards that goal? Right? A lot of
things aren't solvable. You know, like
you said, it's a 30-day, 60-day process,
right? But what's one thing I can do to
move this forward today? And that kind
of helps people and gives them some of
the some of the power back. Like, hey,
I'm a little more capable at dealing
with this than than maybe I'm giving
myself credit.
>> Sure. Yeah. Actionable steps.
>> Yeah, definitely.
>> So, I heard some like themes and that
kind of like sum it up as like maybe
control being like a big reason to have
like stress and anxiety.
>> Oh, yes.
>> Would you find that true? Yeah, very
much. Yeah.
>> Yeah. We as humans love control. We're
control enthusiasts. And when we don't
have that, um we just we feel very out
of sort. And so there's a concept in
therapy and in the literature called um
uncertainty tolerance. Instead of
driving for control and getting control,
that that's not always possible. So what
we have to do is learn to tolerate the
uncertainty. We need to build a thicker
skin around not having control because
much of life is out of our control. So
you do that in little ways. You practice
being out of control and accepting it,
tolerating it. Um not necessarily
enjoying it, but you are just being
present with that sensation. And the
more you do that, the more you tend to
desensitize to the fear of being out of
control. So you hang out with the
uncertainty, you make friends with it,
and all of a sudden you're able to take
on a lot more in terms of being out of
control than you previously were.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know, being
out of control kind of puts a pit in my
stomach, and I don't feel good about it.
And I don't know that I I can sit with
it indefinitely, but could I sit with it
for 10 minutes, right? Could I practice
getting used to that? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. It's like exercise, doing
repetitions of it, and one day you're
stronger. Same thing with your ability
to um tolerate just those feelings of
not having control.
>> Well said, Kelly. What do you think
about like our viney and sewing process
that we do to help kind of eliminate
>> or really reduce this need to like
control and really how how do you as a
professional help guide that and reduce
stress and anxiety around this topic?
>> Well, I think it all comes down to um
time and preparation. Um, so in our
industry, like Blake said, sometimes
people think they want something at a
very quick pace, um, or want to, for
instance, just go see the house, um,
before they've maybe sat down and had a
conversation with us as realtors. Um, or
they want to get their house on the
market next week without analyzing all
the data. Um, and so I think that all
comes down to preparation. So, one of
the things we do, for instance, with
buyers, um, is when we meet with them,
we go through a, uh, a detailed process
that ask very specific questions that
have been developed over time, uh, to
help, uh, really define what they're
looking for, really uh, help to
understand what their control triggers
are. That's what I'm going to call it.
That's probably not a real term. Um,
but so often they're trying to control
this process. And what we have is homes
that don't really fit those boundaries
or that criteria. And so we have to
really help guide them into what will
really work. A particular technique that
I like a lot in the process that we use
is with couples um or two buying parties
whether they're married or not um that
we go through a process of asking them
what their top priorities are in the
home, having them star the things that
are most important to them and then
talking about that uh uh together uh and
having each partner identify their their
their most important things. Um, the
reason that this becomes really
important with couples is that a lot of
times there's a party that isn't as
vocal or is willing to seed that power
to the other person. Um, and uh, and
what where this comes up is they try to
regain that control or power later in
the process if we haven't discussed it
by saying, "I always wanted a house and
have to have a house with a tub that
they've never talked about before."
>> And then we, you know, we're kind of
back to square one uh, after we've been
looking at homes for, you know, two or
three months. So,
>> would you say that's Yeah,
>> I would agree. And there's no such thing
as a perfect house. So, I think like
setting expectations is interesting.
Statistics show if it's like 80ish% of
what is in the home is what you want,
then you'll should be happy for a
nominal amount of time that's like a
normal time,
>> 5 to seven years usually.
>> So, let's talk about like power dynamics
and like couples because a lot of times
there's always like a third either
another vested party or a third party.
So maybe like a child's buying their
first home. Well, it's the child's home,
but the parents are doing the down payment.
payment. >> Mh.
>> Mh.
>> Or two people are coming together, maybe
getting married, getting engaged. Money
is not equitable or equal, I think, is
actually a better word. Or maybe parents
are selling, not parents are selling,
yeah, maybe like children are selling
their parents home. >> Yeah,
>> Yeah,
>> there's a lot of dynamics there. So what
are what are some ways to what can we do
as realtors to help facilitate? So not
therapist was something like that. Very
scary. Yeah. But like a lot of times
like conversations hit in the moment and
there really is no time to like call you
two to be like help me. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So what are some things that we could be
aware of? Not to mention we don't have
them on retainer.
>> No shame or instead of like a bat signal
situation, right?
>> Um you guys really do um I imagine just
run into like like you guys are just
like amateur couples therapists all of a
sudden, right? Like these these dynamics
just suddenly play out under stress and
that's how mental health dynamics tend
to go in general, right? is like
something that's there and like is you
know the couple's generally kind of
getting away with like stress kind of
brings it out and brings it to the
forefront. Um I loved about you know
hearing about your process of like how
you actually sit down and get ahead of
this. Maybe I'm guessing maybe you
learned that from experience. Um
>> bring it the hard way.
>> But yeah, like a little bit
this is a huge part like we talk about
this in CBT is is like one of the things
that can generate a lot of like just
negative thinking and negative emotion
is like having unmet expectations. And
we have expectations about everything
whether we realize it or not, right? So
you guys do a great job of just
eliciting that right through through
your natural experiences and um you know
I I would recommend to you know whether
it be you guys facilitating this with
you know a third party to the
transaction or if it's just a couple you
know taking care of this too but it's
like yeah how do you bring as many of
those expectations as possible out in
the open right through some whatifs.
How's it going to feel right um if you
make this down payment? How's it going
to feel to receive this down payment?
Does that create a hierarchical
relationship or a power differential? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And in the moment, it's so tricky
when you see it playing out and there
hasn't been time to prep for it. Um, you
guys might have to do a little
refereeing in these conversations and,
you know, very politely and gently tell
one party to, you know, pipe down a
little bit so another party can speak.
So, um, that's a tricky thing to do, but
um, you guys with your professionalism,
like I'm sure you're fine. But yeah, it
might be actually um encouraging a party
to be a little more quiet and you know
asking some more direct questions of
somebody who's being um quiet or not
bringing their needs to the forefront. A
>> a huge thing that we help people with in
therapy for all sorts of reasons is
assertiveness training. Right there
there are lots of people that just have
trouble and you know we hear the term
assertiveness, but it's like what does
that really mean? And it's like it's
asking for what you want or need in a
way that respects how I feel and the way
the other person feels, right? No one's
getting stepped on. In other words, and
it can be really difficult. Um, again,
this could be another dynamic that is
kind of coming out under the stress. Um,
anecdotally, I' I've had some clients
where, you know, the couple moves and
one of the other feels really resentful
like after the fact because they didn't
feel heard. The house isn't actually
what they want. And really, no one feels
good about it, right? The other the
partner that did get what they want is
going, "Well, I I had no idea." Right?
>> So, so yeah. So, I
>> had no idea about the bathtub.
>> About the bathtub, right? Is is it
always a bathtub? Right. It's a fireplace.
fireplace. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> Well, a lot of times couples will go
into the home and they will split up. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> A lot of that these couples do not look
at homes together like room by room.
It's not this facilitated house centers experience,
experience, >> right?
>> right?
>> People naturally go to what is most
important to them.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And then sometimes if like
Kelly and I if we're going together,
we'll like
>> t I don't want to say tag team, that
sounds weird, but we'll split up with
them with that other or we're like
pinging back and forth while we're
looking at homes to make sure that we're
hearing both needs at once. And also
always having like a huddle outside of
the house which are everybody to talk
about it like a debriefer. Yeah. Do I
just see about it? And then bring up the
things that the bathtub. Hey, this this
house didn't have a bathtub. >> Sure.
>> Sure.
>> Um how does everybody feel about that?
Um, you know, you were talking about,
um, you know, being really, uh, specific
about, um, you know, like these power
dynamics, especially when it comes to
money. That's probably where we most
often see it.
>> Um, there's also a lot of legal
implications when money's changing
hands, especially if a couple's not
married. And so sometimes we encounter
issues where people are very
unsophisticated and with the legal
issues that might come up with that and
find ourselves having to
pull the non-power person aside and say, "Hey,
"Hey,
these are some other things you might
consider and you might talk to an
attorney." It's awkward though. And the
question for you is how do we, you know,
you have the other party there that has
the money. >> Um,
>> Um,
>> how do you kind of bring everybody
together? What would you recommend in
that scenario? uh you know because we're
I feel an obligation to protect the um
you the low power person um but the high
power person has all the power and all
the money.
>> Yeah. Ah it's so hard um you know it
kind of akin to family therapy or
couples therapy and setting expectations
at the outset. So before you guys even
get into those discussions, um what is
the expectation? If there's going to be
hard conversations that are happening,
we're all going to have them together or
is it appropriate to be pulling people
to the side? So setting up those
parameters early on so that way people
aren't surprised if you pull somebody
off or um just getting everybody on the
same page ahead of time of how those
things are going to go um is is really
important and can uh decrease conflict
down the line when you're in those moments.
moments.
>> Um outside of that. Yeah.
>> Yeah. No, and and if you need to do it a
little more on the fly like the doulie,
you've done it up front and you know if
this helps either you two or any anyone
watching, right? Uh, this is the closest
thing I have to a Jedi mind trick as a
therapist. This is one of my favorite
things, but it they they call it's like
the courtesy and permission technique.
And you you you give someone like the
courtesy of like a little more difficult
conversation's coming, like you tell
them that. You get their permission to
have it with them, right? So, that just
looks like you you might say to the
couple, right, without um feeling like
you're splitting between either of them
like, "Hey, could I bring up a difficult
dynamic that I'm maybe seeing between
you two?"
>> And and it it creates a little curiosity
because no one ever says no to it.
They're like, "Well, I got to know what
it is." But but if they say, "Yeah,
yeah, that's okay." Like, they gave your
per, you know, they gave you permission
to have this conversation, which helps
lower defensiveness as well. It's like,
hey, you were consenting to this. I
didn't just out of the blue go, "Hey,
you need to pipe down and let you know,
let them have their say, right?"
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> I have like one final question because I
think we're getting close to time, yet
like social norms and like the American
dream involves purchasing a home.
>> Homes are getting expensive.
generational wealth isn't really passing
the same way it did. What would you or
how would you communicate like the
pressure of home buying in terms of like
your friend just bought a big beautiful
house so like now you need to also
socially purchase the big home like how
would you define like what what what
emotion is that do you think and like
how would you
>> I I think it has roots in comparing and
we live in a culture with social media
where all you do all day is scroll on
your phone and compare to other people
and you know you see your friends buying
houses on on social media and it really
makes you feel insufficient. Um, it
makes you feel like you're lacking. Um,
and so the the comparison act itself is
incredibly not helpful, but it's
something that we very much do naturally
as people. So to train that out of folks
is is a really hard thing to do. But um,
you know, I I think we would take an
approach of using that person's values,
that person's path that they're on. what
does their living experience um in terms
of their residence, what what fits for
them. Maybe it's not owning a home and
normalizing that there's different ways
to do this and that's okay, but it's
their own unique journey and path. It
doesn't matter what their college
friends are doing at this point. Um
again, easier said than done, but yeah,
would you add anything to that? Yeah, it
people can do this with a lot of things
and it can be material possessions as
well, but it's like hitting this
milestone having you know so fancy of a
house or a car or whatever it is. It's
like sometimes we we kind of conflate
like that's what gives me value, right?
And other people see that and approve of
me to that, but realistically that's not
what gives people value. And I I bring
people back to that like like kind of
ground them. I'll just ask the why do
people actually like you,
>> right? Like like what are those human
and interpersonal qualities that that
attract people to you? And and it's like
and it's never like, man, people just
like me because, you know, I'm dressed
so well or I have this house or
whatever. And and if that is the reason
they liked you, that's pretty suspect,
right? So it it's like these things
don't define your value. They're it's
just a thing. It's just a life
milestone. Hit it on your own terms. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Awesome.
>> Awesome.
>> Well, thank you. I was just kind of
curious about Yeah. Great question.
Social run and like people's
expectations. So,
>> well, thank you so much for joining us
today. It's been great learning more
about how the two coincide. So, just
want to thank you for your time.
>> Yeah. Well, thank you guys for having
>> Thanks for having us. Yeah. And we'll
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