0:02 Narcissists, sociopaths, and psychopaths
0:03 don't look dangerous until it's too
0:05 late. So, I pulled the most shocking,
0:07 the most secret, the most eye-opening
0:09 facts from the world's top FBI
0:10 profilers, psychologists, and criminal
0:12 experts. They're exposing the red flags
0:14 and manipulation tactics, and they're
0:16 going to teach you right now how to make
0:18 sure you can spot them, too. Let's get
0:21 into it. There was a case of a woman
0:26 called Vicky Silas who sadly plummeted
0:28 from a plane. She had a parachute on.
0:30 She was a parachute instructor. She had
0:33 just had her second baby and her husband
0:36 encouraged her to do another jump. And
0:38 her husband, for all intents purposes,
0:40 he looked like he ticked every box of
0:42 being a pillar of the community when you
0:44 see him in military dress and so on.
0:46 Well, he encourages her to take this
0:48 jump, which she does, but the parachute
0:50 doesn't open and nor does her reserve.
0:52 It had been sabotaged and she plummets
0:56 4,000 ft. And Lisa, whoever was looking
0:58 out for her that day, it's incredible
0:59 because she survived. >> What?
1:00 >> What?
1:03 >> She survived. 4,000 foot drop.
1:04 >> How do you survive that?
1:08 >> I mean, they all felt they were going to
1:11 find her and need a body bag, right? But
1:12 she was still alive and they rushed her
1:15 to hospital and she survived.
1:19 And when the uh chief instructor at
1:21 Nether Raven airfield examined the
1:22 parachute, right, this is one in a
1:24 billion billion of two shoots not
1:26 opening. One you can understand but your
1:29 reserve. So he took the whole shoot
1:32 apart and saw it had been sabotaged
1:34 calls the police.
1:36 >> The police
1:38 suspect the husband Emil Silas who had
1:42 encouraged her to do this jump and they
1:44 start to investigate him. But Victoria
1:46 is having none of it. And what they find
1:48 is when they look at his phones, he's
1:50 been not just dating many other women,
1:52 but seeing sex workers. His sole
1:56 preoccupation is with sex. Not work, but
1:59 sex. And he's not just cheated, he's run
2:02 up financial debt. Um he's done so many
2:05 terrible things. And they believe that
2:08 he is responsible. and they find out
2:10 from one of her friends who was a doctor
2:12 who called them who said their
2:14 relationship is really problematic. I'm
2:16 really worried. She's my best friend. I
2:17 shouldn't be telling you this, but I'm
2:19 so worried I'm going to tell you what's
2:21 going on in this relationship. Which she
2:23 does. And she said, "If Emil Sullas was
2:26 anywhere near that parachute before
2:28 Victoria jumped, you have to look at
2:30 him." And that's what they did. and they
2:31 found out that he had taken the
2:33 parachute into the toilet with their
2:36 toddler and was in there for five
2:37 minutes before her jump. So that when
2:39 they speak to Victoria, she just
2:41 couldn't believe it. But she said,
2:43 "Well, I suppose I should probably tell
2:45 you about the gas leak." And the officer
2:48 said, "What gas leak?" So she then says,
2:52 "Oh, a week ago, the gas valve under the
2:55 sink had been opened." And I text a
2:58 meal. I said, you know, did you did you
2:59 touch the gas valve under the sink? He
3:01 said, did you turn can you turn the
3:03 stove on?
3:06 >> Test it by turning the stove on. She
3:09 didn't do that. Thank goodness.
3:11 But that was the second followup. And
3:12 that's when they decide when she tells
3:14 them that she's going to they're going
3:16 to go and arrest him. And when they tell
3:17 her they're going to arrest him, her
3:19 world fell apart. She couldn't handle
3:22 it. And she protested on his side. She
3:24 defended him. Such was the coercive
3:27 control and the manipulation. But Emil
3:29 Silios whenever he met women, he was the
3:31 best at everything. And if you start to
3:33 look at their history, you see that
3:34 actually their experience, their
3:37 qualifications, it doesn't match to the
3:39 talk. But there's that kernel of truth,
3:42 i.e. he was in the British Army. He was
3:44 a sergeant. And there he is in his
3:46 military dress with his shiny shoes and
3:47 you would never suspect that he was a
3:49 psychopath. But it took a female
3:53 detective whose instinct about him for
3:56 six hours he talked at her with misogyny
3:58 and the way he talked about women and
4:00 about Victoria. He was going to leave
4:03 her. He doubted baby number two was even
4:05 his. He questioned the paternity. And
4:07 this female detectives listening to him
4:10 and is just thinking this guy, we've
4:12 really got to look at him.
4:13 >> You know what's fascinating? I mean,
4:15 thank you for sharing that. That's
4:16 utterly heartbreaking. One thing you
4:18 actually said is it took a woman police
4:20 officer to trust her gut and recognize
4:23 it. But what's sad is the wife didn't
4:26 trust her gut. The fact that he turned
4:29 on the gas and was like, "Oh, just
4:31 switch it on to see if it works." That
4:34 wasn't enough of a sign for her.
4:35 >> Well, you see, I think it was. And
4:37 Victoria I've always been very
4:40 interested in because when it went to
4:42 trial, she sabotaged the trial. She said
4:44 that she was the one who sabotaged her
4:46 own parachute. So the question is why
4:48 would someone why would she do that
4:50 right when there were two attempts on
4:51 her life. So I was always very
4:53 interested and I always am in
4:55 victimology. And what it really talked
4:59 to with with Victoria is that the
5:01 betrayal trauma was so great. She just
5:04 could not accept that this man who she
5:06 had this fairy tale wedding with and
5:07 she'd been married before. She wanted
5:10 this happy ending. The betrayal trauma
5:13 was so catastrophic. She couldn't deal
5:16 with it. But she knew. She knew deep
5:18 down because otherwise why would she say
5:19 to the police, "Oh, I suppose I should
5:20 tell you about the gas valve." She
5:22 offered that up.
5:24 >> Right? So you look for the clues in
5:26 amongst things where when someone's
5:29 being gaslit uh by an expert
5:31 manipulator, they don't know which way
5:33 is up, but their gut, they normally have
5:35 a sense deep down. So when they say
5:36 something like that and then they're
5:39 angry with the police for pursuing it,
5:41 they're telling you really that yes,
5:42 they've been gaslit, they've been
5:44 manipulated, but they cannot deal with
5:46 that betrayal trauma. And often with
5:48 with victims, particularly of
5:50 psychopaths and coercive controllers,
5:53 they may well defend that person. And
5:55 again, the reason being is because the
5:56 love, the attachment, the emotional
6:00 attachment and investment is so great.
6:02 and they want the person to go back to
6:04 who they were when they first met them.
6:06 And they will say, "I just want him to
6:08 go back to who he was when I first met
6:10 him, Laura." And I'll say, "Well, tell
6:11 me about that." And they say, "Those
6:13 first six months, Laura, they were
6:15 incredible." And then they start to
6:17 describe the too good to be true, the
6:19 perfect. And they may have been with
6:21 him. I had one lady who was with this
6:22 guy for 10 years, and for the first six
6:24 months, he was that, but for the rest of
6:27 the time, he abused her in every way.
6:28 And she really thought that that first
6:31 six months that was him versus
6:34 the nine years of his behavior because
6:36 there are good times too as well
6:38 peppered in that nine years, right? And
6:41 the offender will leverage those things.
6:43 So going back to Victoria Silia, she
6:45 still even saw him after the first trial
6:48 failed because they did go to a second
6:50 trial. She even went to go and see him
6:52 and he started doing the head work
6:53 again, trying to manipulate, trying to
6:56 get back in. and she was the one that
6:59 really swayed the jury because she's
7:01 also an incredible woman. I mean, she's
7:03 very smart, very well put together,
7:05 smart, eloquent. You know, we're not
7:07 talking about women who are uh naive or
7:09 silly. We're talking about women who've
7:12 got their [ __ ] together, quite frankly,
7:14 but they believe in the power of love.
7:15 They believe in what they're being sold
7:17 and they don't believe someone could be
7:20 so diabolical, Lisa. And unfortunately
7:21 with my work I know they can be so
7:24 diabolical but they can mask it very
7:25 well too.
7:27 >> Wow. So is he um would you diagnose him
7:28 as a psychopath? >> Absolutely.
7:30 >> Absolutely.
7:31 >> Coming up
7:33 >> psychopaths they'll they what they'll do
7:35 is they'll study people's behavior as
7:38 they grow older and here's what happens.
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8:44 So psychopaths, they'll they what
8:45 they'll do is they'll study people's
8:47 behavior as they grow older. And here's
8:50 what happens. They realize with going
8:51 through school and hanging out with
8:53 people that something's different about
8:55 them. They'll go, "Something's not right
8:57 here. I don't know what's right." And
8:58 it'll happen something like this. This
9:01 is this is a sort of a takeoff on on Dr.
9:04 Robert Hair's uh story about this. For
9:06 example, if you lived in Nashville, you
9:07 might live downtown because that's where
9:10 the action is. And you you as a
9:12 psychopath, you decide on Saturday
9:14 night, I'm gonna have sweet and sour
9:16 chicken for supper. That's what I'm
9:18 gonna have. So, you'll go outside and
9:20 you'll walk down the street and you'll
9:21 see some lights down there. You see like
9:24 an ambulance and some police cars. And
9:27 the closer you get, you see the cops
9:28 standing around and there there's a a
9:31 woman there on the ground is kneeling,
9:32 crying over this little child who's been
9:34 run over and the child isn't alive
9:36 anymore. And you look at that and you
9:39 think some importance happening here.
9:41 You know, you look at it for a minute and
9:42 and
9:44 I'm gonna get it's going to be sweet and
9:46 sour chicken. That's what I'm going to
9:48 get for Chinese sweet and sour chicken.
9:50 I'm going to get two egg rolls and
9:52 you'll go get that and you'll come back
9:53 home and you'll pass that again. You'll
9:55 eat your Chinese food. Then you'll be
9:57 thinking, "What was that lady doing?
10:00 I've seen that a thousand times.
10:03 That look on her face. I don't do that."
10:05 and you go in the bathroom and start
10:06 rehearsing what that looks like when
10:09 you're crying and they start copying and
10:12 learning from other people how to behave
10:15 like other people and they will do
10:17 things in front of you once they learn
10:18 how to do these things to make give you
10:20 the impression you've seen them cry
10:22 about this and when it can cross your
10:23 mind something might be wrong with me
10:27 that I might might be a psychopath um so
10:28 you'll see things like that they learn
10:30 from other people that's why people say
10:32 well they can be re rehabilitated
10:34 they've stopped doing that because they
10:36 were teaching them how to be normal and
10:38 they'd go out in the wild and start
10:40 doing crazy stuff again. So, you really
10:42 have to um when you're dealing with
10:45 someone you think might be a psychopath,
10:48 watch them. One thing when when um a
10:50 firecracker goes off or the light bursts
10:51 or somebody drops something, do they go
10:53 like this or they go like this?
10:54 >> Like a lot. >> Really?
10:55 >> Really? >> Yeah.
10:56 >> Yeah.
10:58 >> So, you can't scare a psychopath like if
10:59 I jumped out in >> No.
11:00 >> No.
11:03 >> Whoa. So, okay. Take away. This is so
11:06 powerful. I didn't know this.
11:07 Watch them when they don't realize that
11:08 you're watching them. >> Yeah.
11:09 >> Yeah.
11:10 >> Because that's where you will start to see
11:11 see
11:12 >> those little things. They'll pop right
11:15 out to you. Go, that's odd. And you'll
11:17 see as they track. There's a thing
11:18 people talk about all the time. The
11:20 psychopathic stare is this. If you and I
11:23 were in a bar and you're across the way
11:24 and then you look over at me and I'm
11:26 looking at you like this,
11:28 it would be odd for me to keep looking
11:30 at you. If I didn't look away and want
11:32 you busted me looking at you, if I
11:33 didn't go, oh, like that and I just kept
11:35 looking that what looks like a blank
11:37 stare because it doesn't I don't have
11:39 the feelings for it to bother me to be
11:41 creepy to know that I shouldn't keep
11:42 looking at her. That's creepy. That's
11:44 one thing. It's subtle. It's one of
11:46 those things you got to be used to
11:47 seeing. But when they don't look away
11:49 like that, that's one thing to that you
11:51 can say something's not right here. If
11:52 you see them doing that, looking at
11:54 people with a blank stare and you see
11:56 that person look at them and they keep
11:58 looking at them,
11:59 >> that might be something to look for as well.
12:00 well.
12:02 >> So there are researchers out there who
12:04 were looking at these maybe even at the
12:06 nature, not evil is a strong word, but
12:10 like really bad, cruel, mean, difficult
12:13 personality styles. And what they found
12:14 was originally the theory was called the
12:17 dark triad and it was conf um it was
12:20 made up of narcissism, psychopathy and
12:22 something called mchavelianism which is
12:24 really being exploitative and willing to
12:27 use other people for your own advantage. Right?
12:28 Right?
12:30 And what the researchers found is that
12:32 these things hang together. people that
12:34 these traits kind of all hang together
12:36 and you result in a person who is
12:39 unempathic, cold, callous, calculating,
12:42 often superficially very intelligent and
12:45 charming, um willing to make a
12:46 relationship with someone and then sort
12:48 of use them and for whatever they need
12:50 them and then sort of abandon them,
12:52 right? The researchers then expanded
12:54 that theory a little further to
12:55 something called the dark tetrd. So they
12:57 kept the psychopathy, the narcissism and
12:59 the mchavelianism and they added
13:01 something called sadism to the mix. So
13:04 the intentional the intentional
13:06 infliction of harm on someone and kind
13:08 of it feels good to harm someone. So
13:10 it's dark. It's dark. That's why it's
13:13 called the dark dead trap. So when these
13:15 traits hang together, we see a when we
13:17 talk about malignant narcissism, it
13:20 tends to be more of that like really
13:23 almost intentionally harmful, revenge
13:28 seeeking, um manipulative and cruel,
13:30 um and yet charming and all that stuff.
13:33 Um there's that famous story of Dirty
13:36 John and it was a um it was an LA Times
13:38 um series. It was when podcasts were
13:41 just beginning. Everyone was hooked.
13:44 Hooked. And it was basically the story
13:47 of a woman um uh Deborah Newell who met
13:50 a she was in her 50s. She met a guy
13:51 charming, charismatic, handsome,
13:53 everything she wanted to be. And you
13:57 know, she's totally into him. And um red
14:00 flags everywhere. Her kids didn't like
14:01 her kids were adults. Her kids didn't
14:03 like him. But still, they move in
14:06 together. Within two months, it was very
14:08 clear something terrible, terrible about
14:12 this guy and manipulative and awful and
14:14 dangerous. The whole story and so within
14:16 two months, she was already having to
14:17 live on the lamp. She was having to like
14:20 move every 3 days. She knew how harmful
14:23 he was. Um, and then the whole story
14:26 culminates in that he um he knew that
14:28 some of her family members were
14:31 naysaying him. So, he was going to try
14:32 to kill he's going to try to kill her
14:35 daughter, Tara. And um Terara killed
14:39 him. Terra in self-defense. But that guy
14:40 um John Mi, the man she was in a
14:42 relationship with, was a perfect example
14:43 of a dark tetrad.
14:47 >> And so just it was evil all the way down
14:49 and yet charming, charismatic,
14:52 attractive, she felt special, she felt
14:54 seen. I mean, enough so that she
14:56 obviously pulled him into life. And the
14:58 challenge with the whole story was there
15:00 was a real tendency to want to depict
15:02 Deborah as foolish. But really the story
15:05 to me was this is how the manipuliveness
15:07 if you didn't know what this was, how
15:10 easy it was. And back in 2017, that was
15:12 only six years ago. We weren't talking
15:13 about narcissism the way we are now. I
15:15 had I think my first book had already
15:16 just come out, but
15:20 >> it still was sort of a a small hoofbeat
15:22 in this whole conversation. But that's
15:24 probably one of the more classical
15:27 examples of a dark tetrad person who
15:29 we've sort of heard about. And then
15:31 since then there have been a lot others
15:32 have come up in the media. Prisons are
15:35 full of dark tetrad folks and a but a
15:37 lot of them are out out and about. We
15:39 know that dark triad people are
15:41 successful business people. Um they can
15:43 actually succeed quite brilliantly in
15:44 the world because they're willing to use
15:47 people. They're very manipulative. They
15:48 don't care. They'll make big risky
15:51 decisions because they're not afraid. So
15:54 it's it's complicated and it is dark.
15:57 And I believe I hope someday they expand
15:59 that dark tetrad theory one step further
16:02 with a dark pentagon pentad whatever you
16:04 call it and bring paranoia into the mix
16:06 because people who are like that are
16:08 they're very suspicious. They think
16:09 everyone's out to get them. They feel
16:11 like there's a target on their back. And
16:14 that that chronic suspiciousness means
16:15 they're very provocative and reactive
16:16 like what are you what are you looking
16:18 at me for? You better watch out. I know
16:21 you got it in for me. And they're just
16:22 and they'll kind of start going at
16:24 people that way. So I I do think
16:27 paranoia is in that mix too.
16:30 >> Yeah. So it's dark. This is this is
16:31 >> some people get into relationships like
16:33 this again. Dirty John was a great
16:37 example of that. But um but there's you
16:39 know people will say when I first met
16:41 this person they were charming. They
16:43 were this. They were that. But the
16:45 cracks on this will start showing pretty
16:46 early. You know, and these are
16:47 relationships we often term as
16:50 coercively controlling relationships
16:52 characterized by fear and menace and a
16:54 isolation and stealing of a person's
16:56 freedoms. So we're we see this in
16:58 domestically violent relationships all
16:59 the time. Yeah.
17:03 >> And so the four sides then tetrad must
17:04 be like the
17:07 >> the hardest and I mean like Yeah. What
17:08 does that
17:10 >> what does that actually result to then?
17:12 The person that has the most epic
17:16 control. It's a person who is menacing,
17:19 isolating. Oh, the ultimate control.
17:20 Absolutely the ultimate control. They
17:22 don't they have absolutely no care that
17:24 they're harming somebody else. Even with
17:26 that level, at the dark chat, you're not
17:27 seeing as much of the shame and the insecurity.
17:28 insecurity. >> Yeah.
17:29 >> Yeah.
17:30 >> I think the dangerous thing with
17:33 psychopathy is that they know that
17:36 people want you to be this sort of warm
17:38 back and forth. So, John, he was very
17:39 charming initially. really seemed like
17:42 he was listening to her problems and he
17:44 cared about her. So they know how to put
17:46 on a show. They they are able to figure
17:49 out what it is people want and give them
17:50 that thing to draw them close. That's
17:52 the makavelianism.
17:55 >> And then the the sadenism you say. Yeah.
17:57 The sadism. Um how does that result then
17:58 if you don't mind?
18:00 >> They will say terrible things to people
18:02 unapologetically. They'll do hurtful
18:06 things. They will um
18:08 hit them, harm them, steal from them.
18:10 They'll get off, but they'll also get
18:13 off on it. Like they'll um say something
18:15 cruel to someone and watch that person
18:18 get devastated and almost feel gratified
18:21 by it. They will watch someone fail. Um
18:24 their whole business fall apart or their
18:25 relationship fall apart and they'll be
18:28 like, you know, karma's [ __ ] kind of
18:29 thing. Like they'll be very it's very
18:31 dismissive of other people's pain. And
18:33 one would argue that they may even want
18:36 to um uh be the one who's creating that
18:38 pain for another person. Would um serial
18:40 killers then kind of go under this?
18:41 >> Yeah, I would say a lot of serial
18:43 killers probably are dark tetride. Yeah.
18:45 >> Yeah. Coming up,
18:47 >> your intuition is nothing more than your
18:50 subconscious doing all the calculations
18:54 for you at an incredibly rapid speed.
18:55 >> We'll get right back to the show in just
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20:00 show.
20:02 >> Your intuition is nothing more than your
20:05 subconscious doing all the calculations
20:08 for you at an incredibly rapid speed.
20:10 And that means your subconscious is at
20:12 least 200 million times faster than your
20:14 conscious mind. And if you listen to it,
20:16 it gives you warnings like the hair
20:19 standing up on your arms or the back of
20:22 your neck or a weird feeling in your
20:24 gut. And those things are warning
20:27 systems, right? So Gavin Debecker in his
20:30 book talks about the nurse who gets off
20:31 at 3:00 a.m. every night and then goes
20:34 to her car in the parking garage. And
20:37 this night as she's about to put the key
20:41 into the lock to open her car,
20:43 she gets the hair on the back of her
20:45 neck, stands up. And so instead she puts
20:47 the keys in between her fingers and
20:49 turns around just as this guy's about to
20:51 jump on her. She punches him in the eye
20:53 with the keys. He goes down. She gets in
20:56 the car, gets away. Now, what she didn't
20:59 realize is as she was walking there,
21:01 she's thinking, "H, I'm just so tired. I
21:03 just want to get home and get to bed."
21:04 She's not thinking about the fact that
21:08 her shoes crunched on some very light
21:10 glass. That light glass was the light
21:13 bulb that was above her car that the bad
21:16 guy broke so that he would be able to
21:18 hide in darkness. Now, she didn't
21:20 consciously think of it, but her
21:22 subconscious says, "Where's that light
21:24 bulb? Where's that glass from?" The
21:26 light bulb above is out. Why is that
21:28 out? It's never been out before. Who
21:30 broke it? Probably a bad guy. You need
21:32 to turn around. So, that's what
21:33 happened. And that's it's really
21:36 important because it is our it is our
21:38 own internal safety system. It's our
21:42 alarm system. And it's not just, you
21:45 know, women's intuition, something that
21:47 you laugh off. It's actually an
21:49 incredibly important and valuable tool.
21:54 and it is how women have survived the centuries.
21:55 centuries.
21:57 >> If you enjoyed that, then make sure that
21:59 you click right here to catch the full episode.
22:00 episode.
22:02 >> The art of manipulation is someone
22:04 making you do things and you don't even
22:05 realize you're doing it. When someone's
22:08 being gaslit by an expert manipulator,
22:10 they don't know which way is up. They
