This discussion challenges the conventional wisdom of SMART goals, advocating instead for setting "massive goals" driven by a strong "why" or purpose, supported by self-awareness, accountability, and a proactive approach to learning and growth.
Mind Map
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hi it's uh andy chell i'm director of
curriculum of the executive development
program at corndale and i've got the
real privilege the real pleasure today
of chatting with david heiner i'm going
to be speaking about
goal setting goals what a great subject
that is now it's an area that we speak
about in our um our level 7 executive
development program it's something that
our learners
talk about they learn about but um
because this is a masters level
qualification it's a level seven at the
end of the day
they've got to challenge theories we
need them to critique the theories now
when dave and i first spoke which is
probably about crikey three or four
years ago now probably and one of the
first things that dave told me was that
smart goals don't work and
and
once i had to pick myself up off the
floor because it's something we always
do um
craic it was just it was challenging
that accepted practice so it is going to
be a it's going to be a fascinating
discussion i think but as a brief
introduction dave um i said we've known
each other for a few years now and yeah
it's no exaggeration to say that you
changed my way of thinking certainly
when it comes to goal setting you know
you you really did um i know you as a
researcher i know he's an author a
celebrated author amazon number one
best-selling author um speaker it could
be uh we met i think we've probably
first met the professional speaking
association we both went um fundraiser
three-quarters million pounds or so so
far yeah loving husband of course and
most importantly cherry's dad as well
but before we get speaking about uh goals
goals
and how you did change my thinking just
give us a bit of a potted history of
your career today can you please where
were it where you're up to how you got
to this stage of talking about goal setting
setting
happily andy and thank you very much for
the privilege of this doing this session
with you um i am sadly
a failed high school student i got
average grades at best
and partly because i was immature partly
because i was too scared to have a go at
stuff in case i failed
and i'll be honest immaturity stopped me
from stepping up when i was younger you
know i'm quite in order of young people today
today
you know their level of maturity
compared to mine back then
so i left
school and throughout my teenage years
and 20s i kind of plodded
believing that i was average at best
and just accepting it i said well i say
that i was a dreamer i had these goals
dreams ambitions things i need to do
place on as to go things i wanted to achieve
achieve
but still too scared to have a go i woke
up on my 30th birthday and i don't know
if you like me but when i was a kid i
used to write lists you know christmas
wrote a list you know a birthday write
another list and one day when i was a
kid i must have written a list of things
i want to do
and on my 30th birthday or very close to it
it
i actually came across this list
and i looked at it
and i became ashamed because i hadn't
achieved a single one of them and nearly
all of them were still relative to me i
wanted them so
so
i i really thought hard for a couple of
days and then i drew a line in stone and
i said from now on i'm going to find out
if i can
i'm going to find out what's true rather
than just believe my own limiting
assumptions or other people's
assumptions of what i can do and
and
i i was so i was so scared of having a
go that i thought first of all i need to
find out how
how do i do more achieve more be more
successful and happy so my customers
because i was a chef at the time it's
where i get my wonderful kung fu panda
physique from um
my customers were the who's who of the
west midlands i was very very lucky and
i started interviewing them after we
chatted about their events
because they were friends and what they
were telling me about how they thought
how they behaved was
was
totally different to anything i'd ever read
read
learnt on a training course or believed
to be true myself or had been told
you know everybody was being taught to
set realistic and achievable goals or
the acronyms smart
not one person in now 24 years later
258 research interviews with mega w men
and women from all walks of life
not one of them have ever said when i've
asked them how do you set goals oh i set
realistic and achievable or smart goals
no one's not once said it so
so
when all these top achievers that i was
interviewing as a hobby
my wife would say an obsession
we're saying they set massive goals i
decided to have a go
and one of the first things i wanted to
do was
see if the goal setting model that i was
hearing from these top achievers would work
work
so i went to a charity in birmingham and
said i want to set a massive goal they
asked me how much i wanted to raise and
i said what in one event
about 50 grand
thankfully in that one moment in time
any other day
i would have probably walked away sulked
rocked in a corner crying
they didn't know though that i had a
reason why i must do
this um i was raising money for cancer
research i just lost my mom to cancer i
promised her i'm going to do something
big so when they left me out the room it
was the best
motivation i could have ever had i had a
and this is critical to massive goals i
had a reason why i must that was bigger
than my fears and insecurities
and i smashed it i mean we myself and a
friend we raised 288 grand in our very
first attempt at fundraising and we gave
82 people experience of a lifetime in
the process so
so
that's my potted history up until
35 years ago and then i'm now something
like 54 i think 55 i don't know stop
[Laughter]
so since then all i've done is had the
privilege and honour of sharing this as
a professional speaker the research
around goal setting memory skills how
top achievers think and behave so
behavioral understanding emotional intelligence
intelligence
and it's all research based so
so
i i have the privilege now unlike many
personal development speakers of being
able to stand there and go this is my opinion
opinion
try and argue with 258 top achievers
most of whom have said they do this and
and
now in the last 21 years sharing this as
a professional speaker with 1.2 million
people globally
we've got
thousands upon thousands of references
of normal people who have thought and
behaved the way the top achievers have
suggested they do and gone from there to
their in personal professional career
business academic goals
literally overnight
you you've hit upon so many subjects
there dave in that few minutes you
really haven't you know it's blown my
mind already so you talk about smart
goals you've talked about the why the
purpose talked about uh
to-do lists you know there's so with
things already if you've spoken i want
to touch on on all of those um and of
course raising money for charity as well
i mean i'm amazing 208 000 is absolutely
amazing for cancer research but smart
goals smart goals
we've been we've been using smart goals
from the year dot critical choice it
feels like it anyway in education um
when we do performance management
education we're told that i set smart
goals in the private sector we're told
we've got to set smart goals so
you you just said basically that top
achievers don't set smart goals so
why not then so just talk me through
just with your research your thoughts there
there
well i'm on being from birmingham in the
uk i'm by nature a bit of a skeptic so
so
my wife would say cynic but no i'm a bit
of a skeptic and
so when all the top achievers said they
set massive goals that's the most common
word in their answer
and we're being taught smart or
realistic goals i thought well
smart is taught on mbas business school
management programs leadership
development programs there must be some
foundation to this and yes
forgive me i say this with a wry smile
on my face because i love doing this if
ever i work in a business store and
people go well smart goals work
i go what's it based on
and there's this tumbleweed because
the very few people who have actually
bothered to check assume that it was
started by a guy called peter drucker
entrepreneur personal development guru
for breakfast yeah yep now he quotes
smart goals but he was not the creator
of it the creator of the acronym smart
was a guy called george t duran who was
a project manager in the united states
and university lecturer he worked on
multi-billion dollar water utility projects
projects
they say the the most common quote found
is your goal should be smart
i've never once read
read
seen or heard anything of george t
duran's saying that
what i hear him say or allude to
frequently is that if you're working on
really big projects the steps to your
goal should be smart and that is different
different yeah
yeah
that reinforces totally what my research
has proven that top achievers set
to quell to quote tim watts founder of
pertemps recruitment
big fat hairy goals and they break them
break them down into realistic and
achievable steps until every single step
that will take them to the massive goal
is both realistic and achievable or smart
smart
that's uh those big fat hairy goals um
so a few people say that i mean you and
i both they were doctor andy coe parts
of buddies and he saw the hooks doesn't
he huge completely great goals and i get
that so this concept of great goals is
massive goals then so so just talk me
through what that actually means because
that might scare some people
i love the fact that you mentioned andy
cope they're a dear friend of mine who
became a best-selling author on the back
of using our massive goal process so
that's where he gets hugs from [Laughter]
[Laughter] so
so
so the actual
sorry just to clarify so you want the
actual process of massive goal setting
yeah what what does it what does that
actually mean you know okay
we are looking to change people's
mindsets here from from setting goals
which are
specific measurable achievable realistic
i mean that just that word achievable
you know to start with is just a bit
there you know so so now to go from
achievable to massive that for some
people that could be quite a step change
and that community
and and this is very important that some
people say oh you're just preaching a
materialistic um capitalist mental
actually no because every single
person's goal
is a measurement by their own perception
so what might be a massive goal to me
might for you seem realistic and achievable
achievable
and vice versa yeah so if someone says
to me my massive goal is just to be the
best mom or dad i can be i go fantastic
if someone says i want to be a
billionaire i go fantastic
you know to me when i first started
writing writing a book let alone one
that became a subject number one on
amazon was after being told by an
english teacher you're never going to
write a book higher shut up um
the thought was like impossible let
alone unrealistic goal and yet now 30
books later five of them amazon subject
number ones to me writing a book is
realistic and achievable yeah so
so
all we need is first of all for
ourselves to determine what a massive
goal is this can be personal
professional career business related
academic related any part of your life i
normally suggest
that people set a personal goal first
because if they achieve something
massive personally then they will be
motivated to take it into their
workplace or business
if people
once they see how simple the model is
some people are hesitant to take it into
their workplace or business because they
that's interesting yeah and so so every
every goal must be relative to us as an individual
individual
our massive is different to somebody
else's so once you've got what the
massive goal is
most not all of the top achievers have a
very clear reasoning or rationale of
what their way is their purpose their
their cause their res on detroit their
reason to do the goal
too many people mistake a purpose with a
goal a goal is the what and the purpose
is the reason why you're doing it
and and those were the reason why
typically out massively out achieve
so they go about determining why they
want or must achieve this goal
and and again i refer back to my earlier
statements if you've got a why that is
bigger than your fears and insecurity
you become unstoppable
unstoppable you do and i guess that
comes back to what you talk about about
raising money for charity and yeah it's
great to say i want to raise 50 000
pounds for charity but that's not really
going to drive you forward is it really
and i remember hearing you talk about um
people who train in the rain for example
you know yeah in the rain you know and
uh and
it's so easy to go to the pub with your
mates you know it's a bit rainy it's a
bit cold but that's what sets people
apart isn't it
absolutely and the the person you're
quoting there is a guy called mark
eccleston who hardly anyone's ever heard
of and the world should know his name he
was he was actually i think britain's
first world number one tennis champion
he was a wheelchair tennis player and
he's represented britain and i think
three or maybe four
sports at international level you know
the gut the guy is a genius and i said
what's the one thing you do differently
he said my mates went to the pub and
parties i went training in the rain
i still i now go to the pub but i've got
part of that is around
determining for yourself what it is
you're prepared if necessary to
sacrifice to achieve your goal
so we've got a massive goal we've got a
reason why we've looked at the potential
threats or sacrifices we've got to make
you then brainstorm
brainstorm
what it is you might need to do or have
to do if you're going to achieve the goal
goal
are you missing knowledge skills
finance resource ability in some cases
do you need team do you need expertise
do you need support and accountability
do you need financial acumen man
management skills presentation skills
what are the gaps and what are the
things you need to do
then and a lot of this will sound like
sound bite psychology but i i beg people
to understand everything i'm telling you
honestly has come from top achievers men
and women whose achievements it's
impossible to argue with
what they look for and seek are two
things that most of us run away from andy
andy
most of us run away from asking for help
and support
and we're very good at not asking for
accountability or when accountability is
thrust upon us we're very good at
getting off the hook
saying oh i haven't done it yet but i
will sorry these things happened
really effective people top achievers
they seek support and accountability
they welcome it they thrive on it and
they don't get scared of what they don't
understand or don't know
it's so simple but it's just a reverse
flipping psychology they see it as an
opportunity because that's where the win is
is now
now
people listening or watching this will say
say obviously
obviously
but how many of us obvi all the time
go great i don't know that
great i don't understand that yet
i think that's done
yeah that's fascinating because quite
often when when senior leaders get
promoted within organizations they've
got this knowledge haven't they and
they're they almost they're expected to
be the experts in that field
and actually if they're constantly the
experts in their field well hey they're
not developing themselves
true because they're getting exhausted
by being the one with all the answers
but secondly they're not developing
others and
there's a lot of research around reverse
mentoring isn't there yeah about
listening to your people one or two
rungs below you and learning from them
you know and and being admitting that i
haven't got all the answers the um i
remember goodness me you put me on the
spot now and i couldn't press
multi i think her name was the ceo xerox
many years ago uh when xerox were really
lost making and apologies about i've
mispronounced her surname um and the one
thing she did she said in the first 90
hundred days six months is she didn't do
anything she stopped she looked and she
listened and if people came to and said
how do they i don't know
you know and just having that admitting
that you don't know the answers i think
is is a vital leadership skill isn't it
it it cannot be underestimated how
important it is and again
what you've mentioned there this the
leader perception of i'm i have to know
everything that's what's forcing a lot
of imposter syndrome happening these
days because they push push push get a
business or an organization to a certain
level then and i see it all the time
when i work with executive chief exec
peer groups they get to a certain level
and wake up one day and go
i'm responsible for all this
how did i get here i'm gonna get found
out i'm just a normal person and and
then they start playing safe and
protecting what they've got rather than
pushing which has got them to where
they've got
yes and and it just causes this massive
sort of inner turmoil and clash so
you're absolutely right that that
listening being able to put our hands i
mean i don't want to date this in any
way but as we're recording this we just
sort of hopefully tail end of the pandemic
pandemic and
and
i seen effective business leaders
they're coming out they're doing three things
things
number one they're visible
they're not hiding in their office
pretending to make phone calls and
playing solid air you know they're
visible they're out there pushing their
company their team
we're here we're here to help number two
they're empathic
yeah they genuinely want to care for
both their team their suppliers and
their customers
those who pretend or don't care will get
found out
and the last thing is the one you picked
up on is they're courageous they're
courageous enough to do two things
number one you said
i haven't got all the answers let's do
this together let's find out what we can
do and the second thing is is in this
massive time of turmoil and change and
change at a pace never seen before in history
history
they're saying well there's so much change
change
a little bit more won't hurt so they're
pushing massive goals huge projects that
normally other people would be going oh
maybe now's not the time
you know they're not procrastinating so
you picked up on some great things there so
so
uh sorry do you want me to carry on with
the the goal setting process or
dave yeah i think i think i sidelined
you a bit didn't i sorry oh i do that
myself i don't need your help andy
you've set me off now you've just warmed
me up i'm off now but um
so we got as far as uh the why uh
brainstorming supporting accountability
uh reasonably well documented that
that
mastermind groups or peer support groups
push leaders upwards and onwards so
they're very selective about where they
get their knowledge and skills from so
so
a mastermind group is a group of
like-minded men and women who are
equally driven to achieve big goals and
they meet each other on a regular basis
they they work towards massive goals for
each other and they support and hold
each other accountable
from here they get that support and
accountability to keep taking action on
the massive goals and not get easily distracted
distracted
um i mean i'm sure you're much better
than i but i'm very oh look a shiny
thing kind of a person you know
even as a kid in high school i remember
sitting in class going focused oh look a
squirrel and you know i'd just be gone
for the next 10 minutes
a good support and accountability team
really hold your feet to the flames to
you absolutely do yeah on that point
sorry i couldn't request you to
apologize but
on the program that we do then all of
our learners are in are in cohorts
including clubhouse somewhere in open
cohorts across different companies uh
some are enclosed cohorts and there's
one thing that we encourage them to do
is get together those cohorts and create
their own mastermind groups effectively
right the power of doing that i don't
think could be underestimated because
i often say when i talk to senior
leaders it's lonely it's lonely being a
senior leader you know because you are
expected to know the answers
and and actually who can you talk to
really who can you talk to because
you're not friends with people you work
with generally your your colleagues are
they come across the other side of the
world you know people in the same
position so to have that that closed
cohort ready built i don't think could
be underestimated it it's incredibly
powerful incredibly powerful
so you you take your to-do list to your
mastermind team and you commit on a
regular basis to do two or three actions
towards your massive goal
the group support you and hold you
accountable to do the tasks therefore we
get stuff done
because especially with business leaders
the ilk of in your cohorts it's very
easy for them to get off the hook no one
holds the no one eyeballs them and go
really andy yeah that's right really
you know because no one dares do that to
them at work so
we brainstorm a list of all the things
we've got to do
we then prioritize the list again sounds
simple do not mistake it as simplistic hardly
hardly
most people do to-do lists hardly anyone
prioritizes them
those that do frequently will do the
easy stuff first just to feel good about themselves
