0:02 Justin, welcome aboard to the show.
0:04 Thank you so much for joining us today.
0:05 Thanks for having me. I'm really
0:09 excited. This is awesome. I I I w to go
0:12 back in time and ask you about your first
0:13 first
0:16 job. You offered to work for free. Tell
0:18 us the story.
0:23 Yeah. So, I went to Miami ad school and
0:30 u right after I graduated, I was looking
0:33 for a job. I was living at home and uh I
0:35 at the time it was really difficult to
0:37 find a job especially at a great
0:40 agency and um I was getting a little
0:42 worried about not being able to find a
0:44 job and I thought to myself I'm really
0:46 passionate about advertising and at the
0:50 time Christian Porter Busky in Miami
0:51 right near my hometown of Fort
0:54 Lauderdale was the hottest ad agency in
0:57 the world big time
1:00 and it they did amazing work that culture
1:01 culture
1:05 defining and I they they started an
1:07 internship program. The first time they
1:10 ever had a paid internship program in
1:13 2004 when I graduated and of course all
1:16 of the copywriters and art directors at
1:18 our school, all of them
1:20 applied and
1:23 I took a took an approach with the cover
1:26 letter. I I'd like to think my work was
1:27 good, but the cover letter is what
1:29 really broke through. All of the
1:31 creatives told me later and that's why
1:35 they chose me. And it was written on
1:38 cardboard with a Sharpie and it was
1:40 modeled after the will work for food
1:43 signs and it said we'll work for free.
1:45 And then and then if if you turned it
1:48 around, it said all I asked for. And it
1:51 was this long list of really I poured my
1:54 heart and soul into this list of what I
1:56 wanted to do and why I wanted to work at
1:59 Chrisen Porter. And it kind of gives me
2:01 chills when I read it now because I was
2:05 so young and I was so young I didn't
2:08 know any better and I thought that I
2:09 could do this
2:11 groundbreaking. I didn't even use
2:13 award-winning in there. I think just culture
2:14 culture
2:16 changing work that would really touch
2:19 people emotionally and move them and by
2:23 the way really do some great things for
2:24 the world. At the time they had an
2:27 antismoking campaign called truth many
2:30 people call it the most successful smoking
2:31 smoking
2:34 sessation campaign in history. Oh wow.
2:37 And you know, for a lot of reasons, the
2:39 the way they they made it cool to not
2:42 smoke. And it's it's a long story of how
2:44 they did that, but it really worked. I
2:47 So, oh, I remember driving in the rain,
2:49 you know, sad and depressed when the
2:51 phone rang and I picked it up and it was
2:54 my school recruiter from our my school
2:55 telling me, "Justin, you got the Chris
2:58 Porter internship." And I get chills
3:00 now. I almost cried
3:02 because it was like somebody got me, you
3:05 know, somebody felt my passion and to be
3:06 tell you the truth, I thought some of
3:08 the other writers didn't respect my
3:11 work. M
3:16 and I thought about quitting many times
3:20 in many times in school and my Brazilian
3:22 the re one of the reasons I didn't is my
3:26 Brazilian art director who's now an ECD
3:29 of EMIA in Europe. He told me at the
3:31 time that there's an expression in
3:33 Portuguese, what's a fart that
3:35 translates and it rhymes in Portuguese,
3:37 but what's a fart when you're covered in
3:40 [ __ ] And because I'd invested time and
3:43 money into this school and he told me
3:45 that, I thought that makes some sense.
3:48 So, I stuck it out.
3:52 So, you joined this um highly admired
3:55 group of people.
3:57 What did you find out to be that was not
4:00 true about what you thought? What did
4:06 I didn't know how competitive and
4:09 cutthroat and backstabbing
4:10 advertising was. There were people that
4:13 had to lock they told me as an intern,
4:15 somebody really nice took me under their
4:18 wing. And uh this person works at LEGO.
4:20 It's a global creative director now. But
4:22 they took me under their wing and they
4:23 talk quietly to me. And it said to hide
4:28 my ideas cuz people steal them.
4:30 Did Did kind of did all that really
4:33 happen to you? What's the worst horror
4:35 story that uh came to pass? The worst
4:38 horror story is that they gave me an
4:41 assignment. I'm not I haven't told this
4:42 story to many people, but it's crazy.
4:44 They gave me an assignment the first day to
4:45 to
4:48 write a headline for a BK Big Fish
4:52 sandwich. M and the the benefit of it is
4:54 that it's bigger than
4:57 the the filt of fish from McDonald's.
5:00 Mhm. And I wrote and wrote and wrote and
5:02 I kept trying to get this
5:05 approved and that they' say, "No, it's
5:07 not there yet. It's not there yet. It's
5:09 not there yet." And I was trying to try
5:12 every direction in every angle and go
5:15 try puns, try smart, try conversational,
5:17 try a long headline, try a short
5:21 headline. And um I had one that I really
5:25 liked what was we we found Nemo. Finding
5:26 Nemo had just come out and so it was
5:29 this fried fish and said we found Nemo.
5:31 That that was one of my favorite.
5:34 Another one was great by the way. Thank
5:35 you. I'm glad I'm glad you liked it
5:38 because I appreciate it. Um but
5:40 everybody gives me this sometimes they
5:43 they like that cartoon so I get a lot of
5:45 silence. So I'm glad that you can see
5:47 the humor in that. But
5:49 um I I can't believe So I and I don't
5:51 know if it's on brand, but it's
5:53 hysterical. Yeah. Well, that was my idea
5:55 is I want to I wanted to pitch stuff to
5:57 get noticed and get a job as much as I
5:59 did to sell stuff. I wanted them to
6:00 laugh and be like, "Wow, you really
6:02 pushed it too far and push real me in,
6:04 you know?" Yeah. Tell tell them like
6:07 stop like hold that like that would be
6:08 good. I thought that at a place like
6:11 that that would be good. Yeah. And
6:14 um I I got I was trying to get hired and
6:16 I was working. Somebody my first day
6:18 told me, "Look, you got to
6:21 stay past 10:00 p.m. every night if you
6:24 want to get hired here."
6:26 And you got to come in nights and weekends.
6:27 weekends.
6:30 And I lived in Fort Lauderdale, so I had
6:32 to drive like sometimes if there's
6:34 traffic an hour.
6:37 So it was brutal. the work schedule and
6:40 the lack of sleep and the stress and
6:43 anxiety. And I towards the end of the
6:45 internship, I kind of got this feeling I
6:47 might not get hired because I'd been
6:49 doing a lot of work for creative
6:51 directors and group creative directors,
6:53 but the only person who mattered was
6:55 Alex Bodess. He said, "If you don't talk
6:59 to him and he doesn't like your stuff,
7:02 you're not going to get hired." And
7:05 I I
7:07 finally mustered everybody said like
7:08 don't talk to him if you're an intern.
7:11 And then it was my last day at work and
7:13 I mustered up the courage. I went to the
7:14 office early and there he was in the
7:18 office alone in this empty agency. And I
7:19 just walked in. I said, "Hey, how you
7:20 doing? Can I talk to you for a moment?"
7:22 He said, "Sure." Like, "Sit down." And
7:25 then I remember
7:27 uh I looked at him and he he had this
7:30 book behind him and it was Chuck
7:33 Clusterman, Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs.
7:33 I don't know if you've ever heard of
7:36 that. No. But it was a it's a huge pop
7:39 culture book at the time. Imagine a guy
7:42 with a Harvard degree just writing true
7:46 stories about music and movies and
7:48 putting that kind of intelligence into
7:50 the pop culture arena. So anyway, I
7:51 said, "Wow, that's my favorite book." He
7:53 said, "I haven't heard I haven't read it
7:54 yet." He's like, "Now I know everything
7:56 about you because I know your favorite book."
7:58 book."
8:00 And like I was like, "Whoa, is this guy
8:04 some kind of master ninja that sees into
8:07 your soul by reading clues?" And then I
8:09 asked him, he's like, "So, did you get
8:11 anything produced here?" And I said,
8:13 "Well, yeah, I worked on this Kung Clean
8:15 campaign for method, and I did most of
8:17 the writing for that. And by the way, it
8:20 ended it ended up winning the Grand Prix
8:23 at Canon. Oh, while you were an intern.
8:25 No, that's the problem. If I went was an
8:27 intern, probably I probably would have
8:29 gotten hired. Which is what I was about
8:30 to say
8:33 is he he's like he's like, "No, anything
8:36 that you did all yourself." And I said,
8:40 "Yeah, I wrote 500 lines for the BK Big
8:42 Fish sandwich. Were any of them What did
8:45 you think?" He said, "I was just looking
8:47 for something from a different angle."
8:49 And I thought, "Well, I think I tried
8:50 every angle there was." I didn't say
8:52 that, but I was like, "There's a
8:55 different angle. I wrote 500 lines. I
8:57 that deck I wanted I saved them all.
8:58 They're somewhere in a server
9:00 somewhere." So, anyway, I said, "All
9:03 right, thanks." And he didn't, you know,
9:05 I didn't get hired. And that's I was
9:07 super depressed after that because I was
9:09 trying to get a job. I think it paid
9:13 $27,000 a year at to give some context.
9:17 At the time, another classmate got a job
9:19 at a healthcare agency as a copyriter
9:22 making 90,000. Yeah. Wow. So, the point
9:25 was I was doing it for love, not money.
9:27 And I knew that if I started my career
9:29 there, I could go anywhere
9:32 after. So, I didn't get hired. And then fast
9:33 fast
9:36 forward two months, I'm looking for a
9:38 job in New York and we're in Time Square
9:41 and I see this Burger King billboard in Time
9:43 Time
9:46 Square and it was the first line I
9:50 wrote of the 500 lines and it was not my
9:53 favorite and that's why I told you about
9:54 the other line. It was the first thought
9:57 that came to my head, the first pun. And
9:59 it had nothing to do with the size of
10:01 the burger. Sorry. The had nothing to do
10:03 with the size of the fish, which was the
10:06 point. And the the sign was said, "Reel it
10:07 it
10:11 in." And like I said, "No, no." I threw
10:13 my fist in the air and my sister-in-law
10:14 was there and she's like, "What's the
10:16 matter?" I'm like, "I wrote that. I
10:17 wrote that." And she's like, "Good job,
10:19 Justin." It's a good job. I didn't even
10:21 get hired and I wrote the line. It's in
10:22 Times Square. That is not
10:26 good. And I I did this bad got a bad
10:29 line produced. Nobody credited me for it
10:32 at the best agency in the world. And
10:34 that somehow somebody sold that. And
10:35 that's my that's sort
10:38 of inspired so many things I want to do
10:39 at my agency, but I never want to have
10:41 somebody else sell the creatives work
10:43 because I have no idea what happened.
10:44 Like how did that line get sold? What
10:46 else did they show? Did they show the
10:48 Guppy line? What happened? I even
10:50 thought it might be some some torch like
10:52 hazing thing just for fun just to tell
10:53 somebody to keep writing and writing.
10:55 Like I really think that was probably
10:59 it. But I'm totally not bitter because
11:01 when when this creative director PJ
11:04 Pereira who now is owner of Pereira and
11:06 Odell and he's an author and an artist
11:07 and I'm not sure if you're familiar with
11:11 him but he's from Brazil. He called
11:14 me uh a few weeks later and invited me
11:16 out to San Francisco and we went out to
11:18 dinner. He offered me a job on the spot
11:20 and I ended up working at
11:24 AKQA which was which became the probably
11:28 the number one digital agency in in the
11:30 world like the Was that solely due to
11:32 the internship or did you guys develop a
11:34 relationship beyond that? No, it was
11:37 solely because of Chris Porter and
11:40 because of the this website I worked on
11:42 called come clean for method where I
11:44 wrote hundreds and hundreds of lines. It
11:47 was before AI. Now AI could do this very
11:49 quickly. But back then a human being,
11:51 you know, subservient chicken, right?
11:52 No. No. What's that? So subservient
11:55 chicken was a website that Chrisman did
11:57 that was the first viral digital
11:59 campaign. It was a landing page where a
12:01 chicken was dressed up in bondage and
12:03 then you could say jump up and down,
12:06 spin around, do push-ups, it would do
12:08 everything. And that thing won, I think,
12:11 a Grand Prix. And this was this thing
12:13 was so viral that a friend sent it to me
12:15 before anybody in advertising and that
12:17 never works. And if that works that's me
12:20 as a culture
12:23 shaping idea, right? That's delightful.
12:26 So they, by the way, they used porn
12:29 technology to do that. The technology
12:32 behind Subservient Chicken, this Burger
12:34 King ad is was developed for the porn
12:36 industry. And the Crave directors,
12:37 believe it or not, I don't know if you
12:38 know this, a lot of Crave directors go
12:40 to porn conferences because they have
12:44 the best technology ideas. Yeah. So,
12:46 virtual reality, they're early adopters
12:48 of everything because they're young. A
12:51 lot of young males and they're ready to
12:54 spend money on porn. And if you want
12:56 like all of the streaming software,
12:58 software, the technology, the virtual
13:01 reality, augmented reality, a lot of
13:02 things where you say nobody uses that.
13:04 It's like, well, porn uses it. you know,
13:07 like who uses virtual reality? It it
13:09 hasn't done that well, but apparently it
13:12 has done well in that area. So, I worked
13:15 on Come Clean, which was kind of a the a
13:17 followup and it was a audio version
13:19 where you were coming clean for the new
13:21 year and so you're washing your hands
13:23 with this soap they were selling method
13:24 and you're also metaphorically come
13:27 clean because you're confessing your
13:29 sins. So you could confess one of 800
13:31 sins. And I that was part of my job.
13:33 Wasn't just the response. It was
13:35 thinking of 800 things people could
13:38 confess to. Wow. And I I wrote 800
13:42 responses and
13:45 um it was the the Alex Mosski's
13:47 contribution I remember was he said he
13:49 didn't want a male voice of God because
13:51 you heard the voice of God absolving
13:53 you. I thought that was pretty
13:54 interesting. He wanted a woman and he
13:57 wanted a woman with a Indian accent.
14:01 Why did he explain that? No, he was
14:03 pretty he's very good with gut. Yeah, I
14:05 think he lives in Boulder, by the way.
14:08 But he he's very good
14:10 with listening to his instincts and his
14:12 gut, and that's what I admire most about
14:14 him. I don't want it to come across like
14:17 I'm bitter about that billboard because
14:19 working there was the best thing I've
14:22 ever done in my career. And I I swear
14:23 you ever seen Willy Wonka in the
14:26 Chocolate Factory where Slugsworth comes
14:29 and offers Willy Wonka a job? Yeah. I do
14:31 I swear to you the first day of the
14:33 internship while I'm waiting to get
14:35 onboarded. I'm sitting in the lobby and
14:37 this woman comes up to me and she's
14:39 like, "I'll hire you right away when
14:41 you're done with the internship." She
14:44 hands me her card. Oh wow.
14:46 Like that's how powerful Chris and
14:48 Porter was that an intern on their first
14:50 day just sitting there could get poached.
14:52 poached.
14:55 Oh wow. So
14:58 So first of all I would argue that you
14:59 know having your line up there even
15:01 though it wasn't the best one I I would
15:03 have loved to see we found Nemo. But
15:06 having your lineup there I think that's
15:07 vindication right? Like you were you
15:09 were vindicated and that's all that
15:15 matters. Um, when you look at a the
15:18 lifetime of a career that you've had and
15:20 maybe for you it's two lifetimes just
15:24 reflecting on how hard you you work.
15:26 What was the moment that you were just
15:27 like, "This is
15:30 [ __ ] This is wrong. This is not how
15:31 the industry should work." What pisses
15:34 you off?
15:37 I can't stand when creative
15:39 directors, as we say in America, throw
15:41 you under the bus.
15:45 I don't mind I I do not mind if a client
15:47 has an issue, even if it's silly and
15:49 kills a campaign. But I do not like
15:52 being told the client was right when we
15:54 know they're wrong. Just say, I know I
15:56 know they're wrong. We got to it doesn't
15:58 make sense, but let's just come together
16:01 and figure out solution. I like that. I
16:02 don't like
16:05 when you kind of gaslight some
16:07 creatives creative directors gaslight
16:10 themselves into thinking the client's
16:13 right because they can't just admit
16:15 that they're wrong and it's okay. We'll
16:16 move on. We're
16:19 professionals. And I don't I don't like
16:21 that. I don't like that. I mean, I think
16:25 a creative director has to support and
16:28 stand by and defend creatives. Creatives
16:30 are sensitive people.
16:33 They're they have these baby ideas and
16:36 you have to help them nurture it. And it
16:38 would be great if we could be completely
16:40 separate from our work and not become
16:41 emotionally attached to it, but that's
16:43 just not
16:45 not the way it is. You you're describing
16:53 between really it's about leadership and
16:56 culture of management in a cutthroat
16:59 competitive environment.
17:01 What's the culture that you've adapted
17:02 for yourself when you think about
17:07 working for and with creatives?
17:09 You mean that's been successful for me?
17:13 Like what's my coping strategy? Yeah.
17:16 I think freelance has been best for me
17:18 and that's where I succeeded for a long time
17:27 because they this may sound bizarre but
17:30 they respect freelancers opinions more
17:33 than a full-timer because I think
17:35 because they're paying you by the day by
17:38 the hour and they want to get the value
17:41 out of you and when you're full-time
17:42 They take you for granted because you're
17:44 on the salary. They waste your time.
17:45 They make you work weekends and nights
17:48 when you shouldn't have to. They send
17:50 you on wild goose chases just because
17:51 you're around. If you're not busy,
17:54 they'll just give you busy work. And as
17:58 a as a freelancer, I've always been I
18:00 can't remember not being happy as a
18:02 freelancer. In fact, when I was a
18:04 full-time worker at this toxic agency,
18:07 the sweat shop, I remember freelancers
18:09 would come in like smiling and happy and
18:12 like showered. And I remember asking
18:14 them like, "How do you like and I would
18:17 say to them I said to one, I said, "Wow,
18:19 you're you're always so happy. What's
18:20 going on?" He's like, "Have you ever met
18:23 a h unhappy freelancer?" I was like,
18:26 "No." And he's like, "Yeah, that's cuz
18:28 we're when we're booked, we're happy."
18:29 He's like, "Maybe when we're not booked,
18:31 it's a different story." But every every
18:34 freelancer should be happy when they're
18:36 at work because they got booked. So, I
18:38 don't I think the create the the
18:41 creative directors in the agency doesn't
18:42 take you for granted when you're a
18:44 freelancer and the freelancer doesn't
18:47 take their job for granted. They're very
18:49 thankful for the opportunity to have a
18:52 job at least for a day, right?
18:54 So, that's that's been my coping
18:57 strategy. And when you know I think
18:59 that's I think the idea is to have
19:01 full-time workers but treat them like
19:02 with the respect that you'd give a
19:04 freelancer and value their time as if
19:08 you're paying by the hour.
19:09 I love that. I mean it goes to incentive
19:11 design, right? How are you thinking
19:13 about your engagement with this other
19:15 person? And it's just completely changed
19:17 in that dynamic. I that's such a great
19:20 comment. So you you talk about this
19:24 unpredictable and chaotic nature of
19:26 modern advertising. What do you mean by that?
19:29 that?
19:32 So many things. There's the processes
19:34 are out of control. They say that you
19:36 need to be in an office to do great
19:37 work. I launched an agency that has
19:39 attracted global attention from my
19:42 office at home that I'm in right now.
19:45 I'm working with somebody. I work mostly
19:47 as a freelancer with my friend who lives in
19:48 in
19:52 Rome. I'm learning Portuguese from my
19:54 teacher in
19:57 Rio. What do I need to be in an office
20:00 for? I think an office is great for I
20:02 like to hang out and see people. I'm a
20:04 pe I like hanging out. I'd like to be in
20:07 a room with you and have a beer, but the
20:09 magic of us being able to talk this
20:11 easily is amazing. I can meet you at
20:14 South by Southwest someday. Yeah. In the
20:15 meantime, we can connect and I can be on
20:17 this podcast and we would have never
20:19 connected if it wasn't for
20:21 for
20:23 virtual meetings. And I don't take that
20:25 for granted for a second because that's
20:27 what that's what allows me to feed my
20:29 kids. If this didn't exist, I wouldn't
20:30 be able
20:35 to pay for their Cheerios. So,
20:38 what's the what's the nature is when you
20:40 talk about a beautiful disaster, is that
20:43 the creative nature or what is that? I
20:46 think the universe itself was a was a
20:49 mess. That's how the world works and
20:52 science works is that we we come from we
20:55 start with chaos and from that comes
20:58 order. And the big bang theory was
21:00 chaotic and then it blasted everything
21:02 and there was this big mess and then
21:04 eventually everything distills. And I
21:06 like to call myself a distiller of chaos.
21:07 chaos.
21:10 I think somebody can come to me and I
21:12 I've mastered this art because I've had
21:15 to and somebody a client can ramble on
21:17 about all over the place for like 40
21:19 minutes and go this way and that way and
21:23 I I can take that and I'll make sense of
21:26 it and that's my job and I have to deal
21:27 with that complicated products. I've
21:31 worked for AI products and cloud
21:33 software and all this complex stuff and
21:36 my job is to make it accessible for
21:39 regular people and do it in a fun
21:41 approachable human way and not talk at
21:44 the like I'm a robot. It is it always
21:46 possible? Well, I mean, some products
21:48 are just, excuse my French, but effing
21:51 boring. Yeah. And then like, okay, so
21:54 it's a software that you log bugs for a
21:57 different software online and it's big
21:59 advantage is that whatever and then and
22:02 then there's other stuff. I don't know,
22:04 drones for example, there's something
22:06 cool to it, right? Yeah. But how do you
22:08 how do you work in that environment
22:11 where you're just not energized from the
22:13 product, the team, maybe the executive,
22:15 the customers like Monotonia speaking
22:17 slowly, just want to shake him by the
22:18 shoulders and say speak faster. It's
22:21 funny it's funny you say that cuz I I'm
22:24 not I don't get frustrated by boring
22:26 products. In fact, I embrace the
22:29 challenge and it's way more rewarding to
22:31 do fun work when something's boring. For
22:35 me, I'm the opposite where I can't stand
22:36 if somebody has a cool product and then
22:38 they are boring and like to talk about
22:41 it in a boring. That frustrates the hell
22:42 out of me because there's so much
22:44 potential. You got this cool product,
22:46 let's just talk about this thing in a
22:48 cool way and sell a lot of it. By the
22:50 way, side note, I think there's this I
22:51 want to clear up this notion that
22:53 creatives don't care about making money
22:56 or don't care who sees it or don't care
22:57 that it becomes a market leader. There's
22:59 nothing more
23:03 rewarding than making a a difference in
23:05 in sales and making money and seeing
23:07 profits and seeing the value of the
23:11 stock go up. And we love to see the data
23:12 of it performing well. It's
23:14 unfortunately a lot of people just don't
23:15 share it with us. They don't think we
23:18 care. I can't stand it when people think
23:20 that we like to do fun, wacky ideas just
23:21 for the hell of it. I actually don't
23:23 like when people say something, "Oh,
23:25 that's that's clever." because I think
23:27 they're implying that it's just fun and
23:31 they're not maybe I'm, you know, maybe
23:32 it's in my head, but I think they're
23:34 they're they're not appreciating the money
23:36 money
23:38 value of it. And that's what we, you
23:40 know, we're not artists, we advertisers.
23:42 We need we're marketers. We we like to
23:45 make money and make art and marry them
23:47 together. That's how that's what drives
23:49 capitalism. As long as it's around,
23:51 there'll be people like us need it,
23:53 right? I I I love the concept that
23:55 you're and this is almost the philosophy
23:56 and I'm sure you teach this to your
23:58 kids, but the philosophy that you're
24:00 talking about here is rising to the
24:02 challenge is really what it is and I
24:03 absolutely love that. Right. If it's
24:05 boring, it just means it's so much more
24:06 harder and so much more exciting to get
24:10 it right. When you talk about um your
24:12 kids, you wrote a line, I thought it was
24:15 hysterical. Um and you said something of
24:17 the on the lines of, you know, oh, they
24:19 want to be I think it was soccer players
24:21 or something or pro athletes. they just
24:22 haven't figured out yet that they're
24:25 they want to be creative. Um, when you
24:28 think about kind of child rearing, what
24:30 are the big things that you want to pass
24:32 to them?
24:34 I want them Oh, I was telling I tell
24:36 them this all the time and I told them
24:38 this yesterday when we're driving to a
24:40 soccer tournament. I told them
24:42 that a lot of kids their parents want
24:45 them to be doctors or lawyers or certain
24:47 or inherit the family business. I said,
24:48 "Me and your mom just want you to be
24:53 happy." M I said if you can pursue any
24:56 field you want and I encourage you to
24:58 not worry too much about the money
24:59 because if you don't worry about the
25:01 money you're going to be so passionate
25:02 you're going to be so happy you're going
25:05 to you won't waste money on cars and
25:08 boats and yachts and things to make you
25:10 happy when your job makes you happy. And
25:12 I said guess what happens when you're
25:16 happy and you're you work is like play.
25:18 You're really good at it. I said most of
25:21 the time money follows and they I love
25:23 it when a lot of times you can tell
25:26 they're not listening or ignoring me but
25:28 looking at and yeah you know but you can
25:30 tell when something's sinking in and
25:31 it's amazing. I didn't Yeah. I didn't
25:36 know you were a dad. So you you get
25:40 Oh wow. Amazing. So my daughter, she's
25:44 11. Just yesterday we got her her poetry
25:46 book in pre-publish mode. Um, so it's on
25:48 Amazon for everybody to pre- purchase
25:51 and she's 11. I am the opposite of
25:53 creative. She shows me her poems and she
25:55 writes one every day. So she does an
25:57 illustration. Wow. And a poem every
26:00 single day and I look at it and I'm like
26:01 honey, I suck at this. Like I'm a
26:03 terrible judge of these kind of things.
26:04 Like I'll tell you if I like it or not,
26:08 but like I'm not the guy. Um, but I am
26:10 the guy who got her on Amazon and and
26:11 you know can connect her to people and
26:14 and do the you know the kind of digital
26:16 stuff. Um, so we got her uh
26:19 pre-published. So, um, that's awesome.
26:23 It rem she reminds me of myself because
26:25 I have I had an art director, a creative
26:27 partner, and he said that in
26:29 design school, they have what's called a
26:31 tonnage project. And they're referring
26:34 to projects where it's a lot of volume.
26:37 Yeah. And when you describe your
26:39 daughter making something every single
26:42 day, like a machine, like But she she I
26:44 don't force her. I don't make her do it.
26:46 She just does it. Like it's it's almost
26:48 like and I'm like honey, it doesn't have
26:49 to be good. It doesn't have to be bad,
26:51 but if you get your 10,000 hours and you
26:53 do 10,000 of these, like you're going to
26:55 slowly get awesome, right? And at the
26:57 beginning, your stuff was kind of like
27:00 me, okay? But it's starting to get
27:01 consistently better to the level like
27:03 I'm like, "Huh, that's actually quite
27:07 good." Um, yeah. So, that's amazing. You
27:08 know what that reminds me of is in the
27:10 pandemic part I don't know part of what
27:15 kept me sane is I started writing
27:17 country music songs every day. Yeah. And
27:19 I would write one I don't I don't they
27:22 start off as ironic.
27:24 Some of them are Yeah. Some of them are
27:25 I would compare them to Shell
27:28 Silverstein type thing.
27:30 They definitely don't have the voice of
27:32 what you'll find on my company website
27:35 now. Um but they do have some of the
27:37 humor. It's just
27:39 more appropriate for a broader audience.
27:41 And it they don't have to be country
27:44 songs. It's just that's the way I think
27:46 about lyrics
27:48 is is some of my favorite songs are
27:50 country songs. Yeah. And I love the
27:54 stories and and how there's I got like
27:55 three directions that I'm going to go
27:57 here. I want to stay with the kids, but
27:59 I also want to talk about country. Um Okay.
28:00 Okay.
28:03 So I think
28:06 that for me personally the most
28:10 beautiful songs are ballads. So Nick
28:13 Cave Country has a lot of that right. Um
28:16 Cat Stevens I mean there's a there's a
28:20 beauty to telling a story through song
28:22 which I think is a a such a
28:23 underappreciated art. I'm not sure
28:26 everybody agrees with me on this one.
28:28 And you know, not for nothing, you know,
28:30 we're called story samurai. But this
28:33 idea of telling good stories is
28:36 something that I feel not only can
28:39 change my life, but it can change other
28:40 people's life and it can change the world.
28:42 world.
28:45 Storytelling builds
28:47 empathy. It allows you to get in
28:49 somebody else. You know that song Fast
28:51 Car by Tracy Chapman? Yes. I love that.
28:53 I I love her. Yeah. It's an amazing
28:55 song. And when I when I fell in love
28:57 with that song and I connected with it,
29:00 I think I was a 10-year-old white
29:02 straight boy living in Fort Lauderdale,
29:04 Florida. She's
29:07 Africaname lesbian
29:12 woman and it spoke to my soul. Yeah, it
29:15 spoke to everybody's soul. And then when
29:17 Luke Holmes, I think it was the country
29:20 singer, did his version of it, some
29:21 people said, "Why? He's a white male.
29:24 what right does he have to do this song?
29:25 And I thought and he's straight and I
29:27 thought that's the beauty that that's
29:30 such a tribute to Tracy Chapman that it
29:32 connected so deeply with all of us. And
29:35 the song itself is about a woman who's
29:38 working class at a working at a grocery
29:41 store. So the song itself isn't even
29:43 about Tracy Chapman. It's about somebody
29:45 else. So, we're seeing the life and
29:47 empathetic for this woman who's a Tracy
29:49 Chap who who Tracy Chapman wrote about
29:52 and that there's a there's a waitress at
29:54 a diner, my favorite diner in Fort
29:55 Lauderdale. And she tells me all the
29:57 time every time I see her that I lived
30:00 in San Francisco and she said I lived in
30:02 San Francisco and every time I see her,
30:04 she says, "You know, me and my husband
30:06 are going to move to San Francisco. It's
30:08 the best city in the world. We're going
30:10 to move there every time." And I and
30:13 she's she's seems happy, but maybe I
30:16 always think of that song Fast Car. I'm
30:18 thought because I think sadly you're not
30:20 moving to San Francisco because it just
30:23 gets more expensive every day. I I I
30:24 don't know. I don't want to get
30:26 political, but I do believe that
30:29 imitation is a form of flattery. I I
30:32 truly believe that. Um and I truly do
30:35 believe that culture should be shared.
30:38 And when I say culture, I mean food. I
30:42 mean music and I mean language and I
30:44 think not sharing culture is a roadblock
30:48 to people connecting with each other. Um
30:50 so I'm not a big fan of you know cancel
30:52 culture and and all the those other
30:55 stuff. Um so and me either and I'm glad
30:58 that the controversy it seemed it wasn't
31:00 that it wasn't that big and fortunately
31:03 nobody got cancelceled and I think they
31:05 ended up performing together and he was
31:09 so gracious to her. Yeah. and she was so
31:11 gracious and it was good to see her make
31:14 a lot of money. She'd be on an awards
31:16 stage. She started performing again. I
31:18 think she's a private person and maybe
31:21 it encouraged her to share her voice
31:24 again because obviously the world was
31:27 hungry to hear it. Yeah, I I actually
31:29 love that when you know the the celebs
31:31 so to speak kind of live good honest
31:33 private lives and they're not kind of
31:35 dependent on this uh you know addictive
31:37 nature of the the public. I don't know.
31:39 It's like I see these these celebs and
31:41 I'm like, "Oh, I I love that he she
31:45 whatever is like that." Um, but uh maybe
31:46 a lot of people say, "Oh, their husband,
31:48 they're washed up." And it's like, "No,
31:49 they have a family and they're living at
31:51 a ranch in Wyoming and they're taking
31:53 care of their kids and they know that if
31:55 they, you know, maybe in 20 years
31:57 they'll get back into entertainment,
31:59 maybe they'll start a winery." Yeah. I
32:00 mean, isn't that everybody's dream,
32:02 right? To get to the [ __ ] you position
32:04 if to quote the gambler and like And
32:06 they did it. like that's they they did
32:09 what everybody wants. Um I I have to get
32:11 back to the the kids, right?
32:15 Um I love the fact that it's about the
32:17 money. It's about the happiness and not
32:20 the money. Um you went over to the quote
32:22 unquote dark side for a while. Got a
32:25 business degree. Ah so yeah I actually
32:29 started it funny enough though I I got
32:31 my business degree right after gra b
32:33 bachelor's. So that's that's unusual
32:35 because most people get some work in get
32:38 an MBA. And there's something to be said
32:40 for being in the corporate world and
32:42 working before getting your MBA. There's
32:44 something to be said how much money you
32:46 can save going straight into your
32:49 masters from bachelor, especially at a
32:52 state school, University of Florida.
32:56 So yeah, I I I got I went straight into
32:59 that program the first year. It was
33:02 2000, the first year that the Masters of
33:04 Arts of International Business was at
33:06 the University of Florida and it is
33:08 modeled on the Thunderbird Business
33:09 School. I don't know if you heard of
33:10 that. I don't know. What's that about?
33:12 It's a specialty school for
33:14 international business that only has a
33:17 master's program and they place people
33:20 in Singapore, Australia. Nice. I my
33:22 school m the masters of arts and
33:24 international business. It's pretty
33:27 funny story. Um, I wanted to do an internship
33:29 internship
33:33 in advertising in Barcelona and the
33:35 programmers knew they didn't have any
33:36 internships. They definitely didn't have
33:38 an internship in advertising in
33:41 Barcelona. Do you remember Ask Jeeps?
33:43 Before Google, there was Ask Jeeves.
33:45 Yeah, that's right. And it was this
33:47 little butler. And everything was in the
33:49 form of a question. And I said, "Where
33:51 can I find an advertising internship in
33:54 Barcelona?" And I hit enter. And the
33:55 first thing that came up was called ayagora.com
33:57 ayagora.com
33:59 which is a Greek word for the
34:02 marketplace and it's
34:05 closest way to explain it is it was
34:08 Facebook and LinkedIn together for
34:10 international students.
34:12 In other words, they could find an
34:13 internship, they could find a job, they
34:19 could find a date. Mhm. And I I clicked
34:22 ayore.com and I went to the internship
34:25 and then I emailed them and then 5 minutes
34:25 minutes
34:29 later they said you can come to
34:31 Barcelona in December. You can intern at
34:33 the World Trade Center. There's also one
34:34 I didn't know this but there's other
34:36 World Trade Centers in New York. So I
34:37 was on the Mediterranean in the World
34:40 Trade Center overlooking 360 view of the
34:44 city. Wow. working as a intern for this
34:47 site and they gave me a free apartment.
34:48 They said they would have paid because
34:50 they paid all the other interns. It was
34:53 just they couldn't pay an American but I
34:57 I lived for free and worked at this
34:59 amazing office and got all this dot
35:02 experience and that was that was that
35:05 was just fate. that that's how that's
35:08 how I as maybe the universe it works
35:10 weird like that but the fact it took me
35:12 five minutes to land that because I
35:15 decided to ask Steve so thanks to shout
35:17 out Jeie
35:20 I love that um Justin believe it or not
35:24 we are way over time I I I have God I
35:26 wanted to ask you more about the kids
35:29 but we got to wrap up um we have one
35:31 question that is the only question
35:33 scripted on this
35:36 And it's if you had to go back to 20some
35:38 year old Justin, what would you tell him?
35:40 him?
35:43 Oh, it's all going to be okay. And that
35:46 relax and don't worry and just enjoy
35:48 this time of your life and you're going
35:49 to meet a wife and you're going to have
35:50 kids and you're going to have full-time
35:52 job and
35:55 then be young. Be young, have fun, drink
35:57 Pepsi. That's my favorite tagline ever
35:59 because it's so Some people probably
36:00 think it's like too salesy or
36:02 straightforward, but I so honest. It's
36:04 like you're selling Pepsi, be young,
36:06 have fun, drink Pepsi. Yeah, just do the
36:09 first two and why not do the third. It's
36:11 honest. Yeah. It's like if you listen to
36:12 the first two, it's not even an ad. It's
36:15 a metaphor for life. You just never
36:18 never think you're old. Just just live
36:21 young. Just just a good idea. Justin,
36:23 thank you so much for coming on the show
36:24 today. This has been absolutely delightful.
36:26 delightful.
36:27 Thanks a lot. It's been a lot of fun.
36:30 Appreciate it. And uh look forward to
36:32 listening to other episodes in the
