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#AEBF25 | Day 1 - 5th AICEE (Part 5)

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Summary

Core Theme

The provided content is a collection of presentations from an energy conference, focusing on the challenges and opportunities in energy investment, transition, and policy within ASEAN, with a particular emphasis on Indonesia and the Philippines. Key themes include geopolitical influences on energy investment, the role of emerging technologies like hydrogen and nuclear power, innovative financing mechanisms, and the evolving landscape of carbon markets.

Mind Map

คลิกเพื่อขยาย

คลิกเพื่อสำรวจ Mind Map แบบอินเตอร์แอคทีฟฉบับเต็ม

uh keynote speech. May I request for the

participant to maybe sit at the front

please? Maybe the tree on the back. If

you can sit a little bit closer to the

front so we can have a more uh cozy uh

environment to receive the uh lecture

and keynote speech from Professor Sophian.

Sophian.

Thank you. Thank you very much. So yeah

um thank you very much. Uh without

further ado, I would like to call his

excellency, Professor Suvian Sufa, Vice

Chancellor of the UKM to provide the

Good morning everyone.

If you have a clicker and maybe I can uh

do a bit more justice, right, I've been

given uh 15 minutes to speak. This is a

very heavy topic uh on investment

and uh first of all I would like to

thank uh the organizers uh ASEAN center

for energy and other uh co-organizers

for inviting me to speak at this uh

important event.

Um I'm going to focus on geopolitical

challenges um in relation to investment

in energy and then we are going to

relate this to priority economic deliverables

deliverables

uh under the ASEAN chairmanship 204 2025

and then how do we go about investment

uh preparing investment in energy

uh energy sector has been uh receiving a

lot of uh focus in in the past few years

and the most important thing is energy

has always been linked with politics. So

when you talk about energy you have to

talk about politics international

security and others

and in the past few years we have been

looking into uh various factors that

have uh an impact on uh the investment

and also development in the energy

sector. One is the international and

regional security for uh global norms.

For example, uh Southeast Asia uh we

have South China Sea and China South

China Sea's um has been one of the main

sources of uh petroleum uh oil and gas

activities. There are so many countries involved.

involved.

Malaysia is one of the early uh pioneer

in the uh energy uh extraction from uh

the middle from South China Sea. And

then uh we have the late comers like

Myama. My has been uh producing gas for

many years and because of the political

challenges in Myama all of a sudden many

uh investors pull out from the region.

So that actually has uh an impact on the

energy supply in not just in Southeast

Asia but also in the world. And then we

have South Sudan who used to be uh one

of the main sources of energy oil and

gas but unfortunately the uh continuous

uh civil war in South Sudan has also

affected investment. For example,

Petronas has to pull out from South

Sudan because of the uh situation and

now Petronas is filing um legal claims

against South Sudan in the international arbitration

arbitration

and of course the Middle East has been

the focus um and the Middle East has

always been subject to a lot of

volatility volatility in the uh economic

and security sector.

Next we have the movement towards

climate and sustainability concerns.

People are looking into energy uh but uh

moving towards renewables

uh now with the net zero policy

um driven by the United Nation. We are

looking into uh more um R&D and

development and focus on renewable

energy. Uh solar uh we have um

hydrogen. Uh people are also looking

into other sources including clean nuclear.

nuclear.

And then another factor which will have

an impact on energy is the trade and

technology war between USA and China. We

cannot run away from this trade. Last

week, China declared that there will no

more um export or there will be export

restrictions on re uh rare earth and

critical minerals from China. This will

have have an impact on technologies

especially we cannot run away from

semiconductor and AI even in the energy

sector. Uh cyber security is becoming a

very important topic in energy sector.

We know energy companies like Tanaga

National, they have specific departments

dealing with cyber security and all this

artificial intelligence and the

technology war will have an impact on

the supply of chips. Uh semiconductor

will have an impact on how do we go

about doing this and the trade war has

also impacted on the way we do things.

For example, uh in Malaysia's uh US

negotiation, we know that uh Petronas uh

had to come in and uh commit to

purchasing about 70 billion worth of gas

from uh from the United States just to

alleviate the tariff war. Same goes with

Indonesia. Indonesia and Malaysia both

are uh among the top gas producers in

the world. Yet to alleviate the impact

of tariff which has nothing to do with

energy, we have no choice but to commit

to purchase of natural gas from the

United States. So all this leads to uh

challenges in the energy business in the

energy sector because every single

energy company and every single energy

activity will have to take into account

various impacts. For example, when that

we have uh international and regional

security, we have higher business risk,

cost of production increase

um and then which will have an impact on

reserve security. Uh Malaysia, for

example, as one of the net exporters of

gas all of a sudden find itself in a

very awkward situation because of this

uh um reserve security. We have to go

very far not just in the in in the

United States but Petronas is now one of

the largest investors in Canada to

produce gas to ensure energy security

and then uh pricing is also um very

volatile. Uh we are looking into no

scarcity in renewable energy price. Uh

the pricing mechanism keeps keeps on

changing. uh now we are looking at uh

pricing mechanism based on supply and

demand no longer being controlled by

authorities and then at the same time

with the uh focus on solar and some

other renewables we have a competition

whether you want to build solar farm or

you want to build a farm to feed human

being whether you want to have renewable

energy or you want to have land for food

so there's a big competition over the

same source of land and uh this has an

impact on on how uh decision making are

being made on on investment and some of

these uh land reserve or being occupied

by solar farms are actually very fertile

land that can actually produce food for

human consumption and we have food

security issues around the world.

So these are the among the issues when

uh we have uh problems uh in this area

countries are not willing to share resources

resources

um leading to higher cost and prices.

Say for example in rare earth rare earth

is important for energy because uh if

you want to produce uh solar cell you

need rare earth. If you want to produce

uh self fuel you need rare earth and all

this contribute to the um to the

unwillingness of some uh countries of

sharing their resources.

So what we are doing uh in the assean

vision 2045 is to look at the asan

centrality and multi-artner consensus uh building

building

we we are doing consensus building. Say

for example we are looking into Assean

GCC. Assean GCC 60% of uh imports from

for ASEAN. Assean imports about 60% of

energy from the GCC countries. So GCC

for ASEAN is an important uh supplier of

energy, gas, oil. But at the same time

we are also looking at GCC countries to

diversify their uh sources. So instead

of just supplying oil and gas but we are

looking at GCC as capital providers for

renewable energy investment and then

under this year's chairmanship we are

looking at ASEAN GCC plus China where uh

how we can actually build there is a

consensus to focus on energy sector

where China ASEAN and GCC will work

together. So here we will work

collectively on the future energy

technologies critical mineral such as

for um for EV for semiconductor for

hydrogens and then we need to increase

assean collective economic security plans.

plans.

So as a result we have pro we have 18

priority economic deliverables for ASEAN

uh chairmanship 2025. Three of three or

four of them are related to energy. One

is the adoption of Azan sustainable

investment guidelines. This is an

important document where we uh foster

responsible and inclusive investment

practice to contribute to the

sustainable and long-term asan economic

environment and society. So if we want

to have investment in energy, the energy

companies will have to take will have to

focus on responsible investment. Meaning

that they not just they will focus on uh

extraction but also on the social

impact, environmental impact like uh the

society and also um we see some evidence

of land encroachment and others.

And then as mentioned by the deputy

minister earlier, we are looking at

endorsement of the ASEAN plan of action

for energy cooperation 2026 2030. This

is a new document uh which will be

launched this year. You will look into

seven uh programs such as the energy

transition, energy security, interconnectivity,

interconnectivity,

clean energy transition, resilience,

integrated energy market,

decarbonization, net zero carbon

neutrality and lowcarbon technologies.

So these are the seven areas which the

ASEAN member states are negotiating to

include in the ASEAN plan of action for

energy cooperation 2026 2030. At the

same time we are looking into the ASEAN

power grid. This is a ma one of the main

uh agendas for 2025

and we are looking into the signing of

MOU to produce uh to ensure the

implementation of the ASEAN power grid.

Here we we need a lot of money to build

say under the under the sea cable. We

need a lot of fund to build um high

pilot system. We need a lot of money to

bring power say from uh

Laos to Malaysia up down to Singapore.

We are looking at the new wind energy

from Vietnam all the way to uh Singapore

and Malaysia. And of course for Sarawa

Bakun being the hydrogen uh being the

hydrop power um producer to transfer the

power to uh Singapore and this part of Malaysia.

Malaysia.

And then we have the development of AEAN

capital market forum which actually

deals with how we gather fund

um and encourage a green transition. So

if we don't have capital market we are

not able to raise uh funding for

investment in energy especially in the

renewable energy area. And then the most

importantly is to catalyze access to

financing for climate resilient and just

transition in Asia where we have we

require a lot of money to build the

infrastructure. So the central bank, Ben

Bankagara Malaysia together with

multilateral uh funding organizations

like the Asian Development Bank and

International Finance uh finance

corporation under the World Bank. They

are working together to build um uh

multilateral funding system to ensure

that we are able to have access to the

um capital market which require a lot of

fund to build the energy investment.

And for Malaysia, we are looking at uh

energy as an important part of uh

national uh investment and national

development agenda under the 13 Malaysia

plan. Uh we are looking at uh creating

value chain. We looking at productivity.

If we look at the national plan, for

example, we want to increase data

center. Data center requires a lot of

more energy. If we are looking at

building semiconductor industry to build

AI chips, this require a lot more energy

than what we expect. So all the

investment plan will have to take into

consideration the high cost of energy

So we need lot of strategy among others

to have the overall reform process. We

have to look into identification of uh

investment attractions in the energy

sector. We have to ensure that when

people want to come and invest they

given uh certain preference. Uh we have

to in reduce the implementation

barriers. Uh a lot of uh this involve uh

interaction between uh various

governments. In Malaysia, we have

federal, state and uh city governments.

In uh other countries, the situation is

almost similar. So when you want to

invest, every single layer of government

will have to ensure that they are able

to deliver and improve on their

investment uh facilitation. So I think I

stop there. Thank you very much for

giving me the opportunity to to share my

thoughts about energy investment from

the risk

in the world that we are facing at the

moment to the ASEAN plan and at the same

time down to the national level. Even if

you have a very good plan at the ASEAN

level, it still need to be implemented

down at the member state level. Thank

Thank you very much uh Prof, uh for the

very concise but very insightful

impactful uh presentations. Um I would

like to open uh for a quick Q&A if

that's okay prof because while we are

having you as this opportunity uh may I

check if there is any question from the audience.

audience.

>> Yes please.

>> Thank you. [clears throat]

>> Uh good morning. Thank you professor for

your presentation. Uh my name Redo from

uh Ministry of Energy and Min Sources of

Indonesia. Uh you mentioned about the US

and China trade war and Asan power grid.

Uh from your perspective uh is are there

any possibility that uh US China war

will be influenced or influenced the

Asan power grid uh implementation and

how do you believe the Asan member state

will be reach consensus on this point? I

think that's thank you.

>> Okay. Thank you very much. Um

right there Asan power grid there are

various elements of Asan power grid. One

I think if you look at the transfer of

power from Laos to Thailand to Peninsula

Malaysia down to Singapore and to some

parts of Indonesia. Another angle is we

are looking at the Indonesian side uh in

Borneo transferring power to Malaysia

and otherwise.

Um there are some potential political

impact because of the investment. If we

look at LA PDR, most of the uh investors

producing hydropower in LA PDR are

basically non LA companies including

Korea, uh China and others. So there

could be some element of uh political

game in the implementation one. Number

two, uh if you want to build a power

grid, you need to build the infrastructure.

infrastructure.

uh I don't have to explain everyone here

understands that infrastructure is not

cheap you need pylon you need undersea

cable you need everything and where the

money is coming from so we have um say

for example the Assean infrastructure

investment bank of China they have been

investing a lot on on this infrastructure

infrastructure

but we know in Assean the um although we

are supposed to be centrally assean But

uh each and every member state has its

own preference. We have member states

who would like to work with China and we

have member states who are inclined to

Japan and uh other forms. And like I

mentioned earlier the multilateral uh

funding arrangement with World Bank,

Asian Development Bank or IFC these are

inclines toward the western Japan and

western uh political power and AIB is

inclined towards China. So there could

be some struggle

in the uh investment in infrastructure.

That's the potentially the impact on the

Asan power grid. Okay.

>> Yes.

>> Yeah. Can you

>> Hi. Uh thank you so much professor for

that uh presentation. You mentioned uh

the multilateral development banks

>> and the role that they can play in uh

energy development here. um what is the

current role that for instance the Asian

Development Bank is playing and what

more could they be doing?

when I came back to Asia in 2010, uh my

first job was with ADB but I was based

in Laos uh La PDR then I moved to World

Bank. Um okay, Asian Development Bank

plays an important role for

infrastructure development in uh

not just in ASEAN but also in the whole

of uh Asia. But um ADB has been playing

an important role in the infrastructure

development in energy sector especially

in um promoting the green transition. Uh

we know uh for a fact uh they are also

uh not just providing uh government to

government uh funding but there are also

private uh funding uh based on energy

sustainability re renewable energy

issued by the ADB with to private

investors with the support of the

government. So this is an important

element because we are not just looking

at government being the main driver but

we need to get the private sector to

drive the energy investment and with the

availability of funding uh from ADB for

example or IFC then they are able to

drive uh private government uh

collaboration in the energy sector for I

I know for a fact that IFC invest also

in uh several

re renewable energy projects in the

Philippines and many other parts of of ASEAN.

ASEAN.

>> Thank you. Um, thank you very much. Um,

I think that will be all for the today.

So maybe I invite everyone to give a big

round of applause to Professor Su

Sophian for the very excellent

presentations and Q&A. Thank you very

much, bro.

>> Thank you. Thank you, man.

>> Um, yeah. And maybe a little bit

announcement from the organizer. I think

we are going to have a quick group

photo. uh for all IT participants. So

some of us are already waiting outside.

So maybe if we can move uh before we

test. Okay. Um, yeah, thank you very

much everyone for the uh I think

Professor Sophia needs to leave after

his keynote, but I think uh let's start

with the presentations. Again, apologize

for the delay in the running. Um so I

think I would like to request uh

everyone probably to uh be concise on

the uh presentations. I think we have 15

minutes uh slotted but if we can have

like 10 minutes presentation and 5

minutes Q&A I think that will be great.

So um I would like to invite uh Dr. Kosh

Talani. Yes please. So he will go

present a presentation titled ener bit

energy to bitcoin uh strategy model for

monetizing idle power surplus into

Indonesia national foreign exchange I

think it will be a very interesting

topic so uh please give a round of

applause to uh Dr. Kashalani

>> and the time is yours. I think we are

going to uh put up the slidesh very soon.

soon. >> Okay.

morning everybody. Uh my name is Castalani.

Castalani.

I'm from Indonesia. I work in Patapal

and Pero and I also become a PhD

candidate student in University of

Indonesia. Today I would like to present

my paper with title bit energy to

bitcoin a strategy model for monetizing

idle power surplus into Indonesia

So there is two main problem in

Indonesia especially in palen that we

face today. The first problem is uh over

supply because we we have a lot of power

plant that has not been distributed the

the electricity

because the demand and the supply was

not met. So there's 48 capacity factor

with 52% reserve margin that

approximately the financial loss is $1

million US and then Indonesian target

for electricity growth is 6.9%

and nowadays still 4.8%

that still not met uh the electricity

growth in Indonesia.

So we offer an idea power to X. Power to

X is a method to convert uh kind form of

energy to another kind of energy or

maybe product and then we over to

convert it to bitcoin. Bitcoins is a new

technology that store of value and also

the store of energy because

uh to make a one bitcoin we need uh

energy. So, Bitcoin is not like uh fiat

currency. It needs energy to make one

Bitcoin. So, with the excessive energy

in Indonesia have, we offer to convert

it to Bitcoin.

So, why Bitcoin?

Bitcoin is a decentralized. There is

nobody can control Bitcoin. Bitcoins is

also safe because it is protected by

technology SHA256.

Bitcoin is also transparent. Everybody

can watch every transaction over the

world. And Bitcoin is universal.

Everybody and anybody can transaction

over the world.

Bitcoin is also as a new class asset.

Today the class asset is $1 trillion US

and also Bitcoin is high demand because

the supply and the supply is fixed but

the demand is also growing.

Bitcoin is also a scarcity because the

supply is only 25 billion and the demand

is growing because every country still

printed money

uh very fast. So in the future Bitcoin

will become a scarce asset. Bitcoin is

also high global adaptation because

country like UAE, Singapore, Turkey,

Argentina and others country

uh still make uh early adopation to Bitcoin.

Bitcoin.

One of the country that we want to copy

is El Salvador. El Salvador with a

president Ibukle

in 2021 announced Bitcoin as a legal

tender. So everyone can transaction

Bitcoin has a own state enterprise named

Lagio. It's same like PPLn in El Salvador.

Salvador.

They manage

a renewable energy named Tekkapa with

102 megawatt to mining bitcoin using 300 processor.

processor.

El Salvador has mined 473

Bitcoin with approximately 58 million US

and Bitcoin is become the global

adaptation of reserve asset. For

example, in US there is 200,000

bitcoin and in China, UK, Bhutan and in

El Salvador.

Consider during this situation that

every country will race to collect

Bitcoin. we over Indonesia is also uh

join this race to collect as much as bitcoin.

bitcoin.

So the key competitive advant advantages

in Indonesia we have uh cheap

electricity production to have one bitcoin.

bitcoin.

In Indonesia to make one bitcoin it

needs 25k US.

If we compare to USA is two time about 46K

46K

and maybe if we compare with uh United

Kingdom it maybe take five times larger

than Indonesia that approximately 130k

130k US.

US.

So from these advantages we offer

Indonesia must use the cheap and clean

energy to use this excessive to become

uh something value like bitcoin.

So we offer energy to bitcoin is a

method or a strategy to convert cheap

and clean energy like solar, wind, hydro

and geothermal become a bitcoin.

And this is the scheme and bit is a

subsidiary of peteln which is bettereln become

become

uh part of Indonesia so sovereign weight

fund dantara

and paln is also have a

electricity generation company musantara

power which is we can get cheap

electricity because there is no margin

needed if We uh make uh collaboration

with Ender bit and then every mining

bitcoin become the bitcoin reserve asset

that we send to dantara and then become

Indonesia foreign for foreign uh exchange.

Indonesia potential in renewable and

There is uh hydro, geothermal and other

renewable energy.

Uh the capacity factor of hydro is still

22% the geothermal is 43% and other

renewable energy is 34%. So actually we

have 7 gawatt potential that excessive

energy that we can use to convert it to

become bitcoin.

And with this calculation

this 7 gawatt we can become uh

contribute to

uh worldwide mining bitcoin six 36%. So,

Indonesia contribute 36%

36%

and we can mine about 56,000

Bitcoin which is a valuable

and the effect of electricity growth

it can increase the capacity factor to 75%

75% and

and

increase the annual energy absorbs about

This concept needs uh capital expense

about 3.15 billions that pay once with

the operational expense 3.24

billion per year

with approximately profit 7 billion US

per year or payback period one years

with AIDA 3.8

billion US.

So uh the conclusion and bit has the

potential to become a strategic solution

for Indonesia to address electricity

over supply and diversify its resources

of foreign exchange revenue. And

Indonesia has a unique combination of

lowc cost energy, abundant renewable

energy resource and strong digital

economic potential which could position

the country as an energy to crypto hub

in Asia.

The capacity factor of renewable energy

could increase from 33%

to 75% if optimized for Bitcoin mining utilization.

utilization.

The potential contribution to foreign

exchange could reach 7 billion US per

year and the project has the potential

to add 58 terowatt hour of electricity

sale from clean and low cost energy

dedicated to Bitcoin mining.

and energy. Energit can also support

Indonesia green transition by converting

surplus energy into digital assets,

creating new revenue stream while

maintaining carbon neutrality and grid stability.

stability.

Thank you for your attention. Uh

yeah, thank you. Thank you very much uh

Dr. Kashalani. So 10 minutes. Thank you

very much for giving that uh time. So

maybe we have a questions from the

>> um thank you so much sir for the

presentation on Bitcoin. I have a

question. uh you mentioned that

Indonesia's electricity is still over

supply and uh you also mentioned that

Indonesia has a competitive advantage in

Bitcoin mining because uh the

electricity is still really cheap in

Indonesia and I believe it is still

dominated by coal fired power plant. So

my question is that what is the urgency

of mining bitcoin using renewable energy

when we are still over on over supply

site in electricity in Indonesia? Thank you.

you.

>> Okay. Uh thank you for the question. Uh

actually the price of electricity

Indonesia is uh a lot of kind of sources

like from coal and from hydro and there

is a lot of price different price in

different uh gener generation power

plant. For example, in Saguling, in

Palta Saguling, the cheap uh the price

to generate electricity is about 40 uh 450

450

C uh rupia per kilowatt. So we think it

is cheap electricity to generate

electricity and the capacity factor of

saguling is almost

about 60%.

So we think that with the cheap

electricity it is so

uh it's so if we cannot optimize it

it become a cost because uh the

capacitive factor and load factor the

more the more capacitive factor the more

uh the less cost. So I think uh maybe we

we prefer the clean energy first and

then if maybe there another coal power

plant that still cheap we can use it to

mining bitcoin also but we prefer uh

clean energy because uh there is no

excess carbon if we use to mining bitcoin.

bitcoin.

I'm sorry if if

>> Thank you. Um, any other questions, please.

>> Thank you very much. Uh, just a quick

question about the legal um framework in

Indonesia for Bitcoin mining. Is it

allowed right now to do it? And PLN in

favor of doing it or what are the

discussions right now also with the

mining companies right the private

sector who would actually set up the

mining so I'd be interested to hear

about this thank you

>> yeah uh thank you for the question uh as

I know uh the regulation of

cryptocurrency especially is now as uh

as a legal legal asset to transaction

with bitcoin and for mining bitcoin

There is a lot of uh company that

registrate in Indonesia

uh that have a main concern in Bitcoin

mining. So it is become legal uh in

private sector.

However, uh PPL still not nowadays still

not in in this uh sector. But maybe with

this idea and we will discuss more to

maybe in this business as soon as possible.

possible.

Thank you.

>> Is that okay? Uh maybe one last questions.

>> Okay. Thank you. Just a quick question.

Is it possible that uh Bitcoin mining

from the cheap renewable energy to be

cross subsidize for the uh cost of

renewable energy that's still high like

a solar panel in Indonesia. Is it

possible to like cross subsidize? So uh

the private sector can reach the PPA

threshold for solar uh price in

Indonesia. Thank you.

>> Yeah. Uh thank you for the question.

uh I think is achievable because

uh pipel is actually under the dantara

which is sovereign wealth fund in

Indonesia that focus in finding

uh profit so maybe different condition

with under the bn is the first so uh

maybe petal will focus find another

business another kind because another

kind of uh prospect business that PLN

can afford to uh optimize and utilize

every asset because Indones

have two 2 billion uh 2 billion rupia

2,000 billion rupia asset. So paln has uh

uh responsibility to maximize maximize

the asset by

uh optimize every asset to become a

profit. So legally

uh under the Dantara Palen have an

opportunity in this business and

privately I think uh it will become uh

interesting business for private company

because Indonesia have uh cheap

electricity. Now maybe another

international company will come to

Indonesia to mining Bitcoin.

>> Okay. Thank you very much. A big round

of applause uh for Dr. Castalani for his

presentation on energy to Bitcoin. Thank

you very much.

>> Thank you.

>> Um and I would like to go to the next

presentations. Dr. Icha Wulansari. Yes.

Uh I think she will present uh with us

the political economy of Indonesia's

energy transition. So please a big round

of applause for uh Dr. Icha, please.

>> Thank you. >> Okay.

>> Okay.

>> So maybe 10 minutes presentation and

five minute Q&A.

>> Good morning. Asamato.

Uh my name is Jawan Sari. I am an

assistant professor in international

relations studies in Paramina

University, Jakarta, Indonesia. Then I

would like to present the political

economy of Indonesia's energy

transition. Okay.

Okay. Okay, the energy transition is uh

the global structural uh is based on the

international relation studies that this

is uh force us especially in Asian uh

people to make the structural stiff uh

toward low carbon energy and Indonesia

has increasingly positioned in energy

transition but uh we have uh to deal

with this uh developmental issues uh in

terms of the chip energy that uh this is

in line with the previous uh presenters

before Indonesia's renewable energy

targets uh Indonesia has strengthened uh

multilateral and bilateral regions but

today uh Chinese investor is the

dominant actors uh that uh they are uh

mostly um dominated in the uh investment

in energy transition and despite

Indonesia's uh assertion uh regarding it

pursuit to energy transition coal is

designed ated as a new energy source uh

because of uh Indonesian people uh need

the affordable energy and unfortunately

we still using the uh dirty energy uh

the coal uh because the electricity um

needed and the challenge of this energy

transition is the how Indonesia position

as peral country. uh this is uh give us

the potential vulnerabilities both

economic, social and environmental and I

would like to present uh this thank you

I would like to present uh this uh

analysis uh through the capitalian

theory. Uh first of all uh today uh the

anthroposian become the strong word uh

to give us the

uh the situation that we have to deal

with the crisis especially in the

climate change but the anthroposine is

not enough to uh to deal with the

situation is not enough to uh give us

the awareness as uh especially for

developing countries to be aware that uh

we have to uh understand that the situation

situation

uh the geographical context and then the

geopolitics based on the professor

previously previously uh present uh

presented the geopolitics in um south um

yeah south uh global community we face

with the vulnerabilities especially for

the energy transition and uh I prefer

the capital theories come from the Jason

Wmore uh the more uh said that uh we

have to understand the word ecology that

this is necessary how capitalism and I

think uh this is the in line with this

uh with the presenter presenter before

that how bitcoin uh this is the uh

practical of the capitalism that uh this

is the system of power in terms of the

politics and uh economical politics that

construct a web of life connects to

human relationship with joy but this is

uh this is related to the uh to the

economy, politic uh that uh in line with

the situation of today the uh planetary

crisis that how uh the presenter before

just in line and um he mentioned many um

many words with the cheap energy and

this is for uh based on the James Moore

theory that the cheap nature the cheap

nature it means that not only nature

cheap labor

and then cheap raw materials uh and

that's all cheap it makes uh the

condition getting vulnerable

and the perspective of political

economic geography um I would like to

stress this this is the critical uh

political economy for analysis in terms

of uh energy transition that's uh this

is the process of accumulation

innovation competition and social mobilization

mobilization

And the practice of just transition is a

political economic context uh that

enlighten who become the winners and the

losers at the same times and how the

distribution of energy and side effects

of energy transition and this is uh uh

this analysis uh give us uh give me I'm

sorry give me uh the under the deepen

understanding how the energy trans

extraction how the industrial energy

extraction becomes so vulnerable

especially for the people who depend on

their living on the natural resources as

their livelihood and this transition

requires legitimacy various regulation

uh and the regulation uh is not standing

uh alone because uh this is related to

the global structures and then including

trade investment labor industrial

policies and environmental policies and

uh Peter Neville

uh he is a sociologist uh from uh the UK

Okay. Uh give uh me uh an insight in

terms of the energy transition of green

new deal framework. Green new deal is

the global uh structure uh that uh this

structure uh introduced in the US and

today uh introduced to the uh European

Union just uh to tackle the economic

crisis in the western uh countries. But

unfortunately at the same times uh and

developing countries face the vulnerable

issue uh due to the green deal issues

and the methodology of this paper is uh

I prefer the petal uh understanding in

terms of the energy transition. uh how

the international political economy give

the understanding the role and the

function of political and economics in

global energy transition and this is uh

the the reality in fact that the state

pursue their national interest but

sometimes uh the state usually prefer

the terms of nationalism but the

nationalism is just for uh yeah just for

the power for the sake of power of the

global power but sometimes there's a

collide with the um with the people's

need uh and this is uh and this uh Peter

Neville's analysis and the capitalisian

uh enlighten this uh issue

first Indonesia's uh depend on the

Chinese uh investors right now in the

energy transition and Indonesia be part

of the just energy transition

partnership beside Vietnam

and China uh belt road initiative as the

global pathway for China to implement

their foreign policy. And Indonesia is

the one of the country that uh China

implemented this foreign uh policy. And

based on this theory uh the capitalism

theory that the social and ecological

risk in Indonesia, this risk uh

concentrated in several development

clusters uh especially for the nickel

industrial side. For some people, nickel

um as the material for the energy for

the battery of the electric vehicle for

the what we call it for the green uh

transportation but at the same times how

uh this uh industry is not sustainable

at all. Uh I would say that in Indonesia

two small island especially in the

Almahara pool uh Obi Island and then the

uh southwest Sulawasi in Kandari

two uh sites that have uh the uh

negative impacts of this uh industrial

uh nickel from China and the challenges

of Indonesia's just energy governance

based on the is um report uh Melinda

Martino said that contains the energy

transition funding jetp inadequate and I

yeah I should say that the professor

before just mentioned where's the money

come from this is the the reality that

we need to build the infrastructure but

uh the reality the money come from is uh

is just uh serious issue and the

challenges of Indonesia's energy

transition include the need for

substantial funding uh for sustainable

energy and slope pace of Indonesia's

coal. Um the neoliberal energy

transition uh with the global periphery

the capital give uh give me the

understanding how the position as uh

developing countries become uh very

fairy and core. This is uh quite um

critical uh economy politic and then how

the neoliberal energy transition forced

us uh to build uh the nationalism issues

in term of the energy transition and the

historical uh the historical uh findings

that this issue is uh started by our

president uh president Yudono that

invited uh to China uh 2011 and this is

continued by uh the the previous

president and the effort of Indonesia to

attract foreign investment to open

market the sustainable energy and then

um clean energy investment with low

business risk. I think this is uh quite

uh serious issue and uh I would like to

conclude uh this uh paper. Yeah. Uh the

industry consists of state actors uh

that the energy transition in Indonesia

just uh dominated by industry uh uh

dominated by the governments who have uh

coalition with the uh business actors. I

think that's all. Thank you very much.

>> Thank you. Thank you very much uh Dr.

Icha. So again I would like to invite uh

questions from the audience.

Hello. Uh thank you very much for the

nice presentation. Uh just a quick

question that you mentioned that uh

China belt road initiatives um have

several ecological and social impact in

several clusters in Indonesia and I'm

just wondering like based on that

finding what kind of um safeguarding

maybe maybe like you think that needs to

be put in place uh to in order to ensure

that these kind of initiatives do not

cause a lot of ecological and social

impact. Thank you.

>> Okay. Thank you. Uh first of all uh I

think the our government uh just uh

ignore uh about the the potential risk

uh in terms of the the displacement

people in terms of the um livelihood uh

the loss of livelihood of the local

people. But uh with our new uh

government they just put the economic

growth as the main priorities for the uh

more than 8%. I think uh this uh the

single narrative is uh give us the examp

uh yeah for me uh give me um the

yeah it's not good. It's not good at all

because we have to deal with this

ecological issues and then the social

issues. Um and based on this uh theory

this uh make it clear that how uh the

Indonesia position as the very fairy

countries just only uh absorb the the

money without uh the the standard the

procedural standard of the uh

sustainability and I I think uh the the

risk for the future is about the how in

Indonesia face uh with the investor the

responsible investor who wants to uh who

wants to implement their ESG. I think

that's Thank you.

>> Thank you. Any other questions?

>> Okay. If not, thank you very much Dr. I.

I apologize that uh we have to move to

the next session. Thank you very much.

Um I would like to call next uh Miss

Yuanita Budan who will present the

comparative analysis of green sukok

utilization for renewable energy

financing in Indonesia and Malaysia.

um 10 minutes presentation please and

then we are going to have like 5 minutes Q&A.

Q&A.

>> Is it okay if I take it out?

Okay. Oops. Uh thank you. Asalam alaikum

and good morning everyone. Uh before we

start uh let me tell you a story. So

earlier this year I attended a

discussion on Islamic philanthropy. So

how Islamic philanthropy is contributing

towards climate actions. I was

pleasantly surprised to see how these

grassroots initiatives are growing and

actually making real impact in energy

transition. As someone working in the

renewable energy sector, I was curious

to see how a broader Islamic finance has

contributed towards energy transition

especially renewable energy development

in Southeast Asia. So I started to look

for more information and that's where I

noticed a gap. So while Islamic finance

is growing quite significantly in the

past years, there is still limited

studies on how far it has contributed to

renewable energy development and linking

it directly to renewable energy

installed capacity for example in Asan

especially. So that's uh curiosity led

me to conduct a research on comparative

analysis of one of Islamic finance

instrument which is green suk which is

widely known as Islamic bonds um in

renewable energy financing especially in

two pioneers country Indonesia and

Malaysia. Uh so I'm Yuna Budiman, a

renewable energy consultant from

Indonesia and in the next few minutes we

will explore more about green sukok and

how its role in supporting renewable

energy development in Indonesia and Malaysia

Malaysia sorry

so under Asan plan for actions of energy

uh cooperation or APA as targets uh 23%

of renewable energy in uh primary energy supply and 35% of renewable energy in uh

supply and 35% of renewable energy in uh installed capacity by 2025 and according

installed capacity by 2025 and according to

to sorry

yeah and according to IEA it requires about approximately 190 billion US per

about approximately 190 billion US per year of investment and although

year of investment and although investment in Southeast Asia has uh

investment in Southeast Asia has uh significantly uh shifted toward cleaner

significantly uh shifted toward cleaner energy over the past years uh there is

energy over the past years uh there is still far below the target of 190

still far below the target of 190 billion US dollar per year and depinates

billion US dollar per year and depinates capital flows in this region. So it

capital flows in this region. So it highlights for the needs to boost energy

highlights for the needs to boost energy investment and also diversify its

investment and also diversify its financial instrument

financial instrument sorry

sorry for the noises. Okay. And uh on the

for the noises. Okay. And uh on the other hand, green sukok has emerged as

other hand, green sukok has emerged as uh an alternative financial instrument

uh an alternative financial instrument in the region and is growing quite

in the region and is growing quite significantly over time and Indonesia

significantly over time and Indonesia and Malaysia are the pioneers country of

and Malaysia are the pioneers country of green suk in the world. So it is an

green suk in the world. So it is an interesting uh thing to be explored

interesting uh thing to be explored especially in Asan region. So this study

especially in Asan region. So this study would like to examine how green suku

would like to examine how green suku contribute to renewable energy financing

contribute to renewable energy financing in Indonesia and Malaysia especially in

in Indonesia and Malaysia especially in these three aspects. So first allocation

these three aspects. So first allocation of proceeds in renewable energy sector.

of proceeds in renewable energy sector. Second effectiveness in delivering

Second effectiveness in delivering measurable renewable energy outcomes and

measurable renewable energy outcomes and the third is institutional factors that

the third is institutional factors that influence the effectiveness.

influence the effectiveness. In this study we use comparative mix

In this study we use comparative mix methods analysis combining quantitative

methods analysis combining quantitative allocation data and institutional

allocation data and institutional assessment. So first we gather and

assessment. So first we gather and calculate issuance volumes based on

calculate issuance volumes based on official green sukok impact reports and

official green sukok impact reports and uh it subsequent sectoral allocation and

uh it subsequent sectoral allocation and installed renewable energy capacity. And

installed renewable energy capacity. And secondly we use adapted a storm

secondly we use adapted a storm principles to design seven indicators

principles to design seven indicators that will be used in the institutional

that will be used in the institutional scoring and at the end we do a

scoring and at the end we do a comparative analysis by comparing uh the

comparative analysis by comparing uh the green sukok implementation in both

green sukok implementation in both countries.

countries. Uh so we have some interesting findings.

Uh so we have some interesting findings. The first one is on the allocation fac

The first one is on the allocation fac uh pattern. We see that Indonesia and

uh pattern. We see that Indonesia and Malaysia's green sukok has contrasting

Malaysia's green sukok has contrasting uh models and also contrasting

uh models and also contrasting allocation patterns.

allocation patterns. Indonesia green sukuk is dominated by

Indonesia green sukuk is dominated by sovereign let green sukuk in which um

sovereign let green sukuk in which um the funding allocations uh align closely

the funding allocations uh align closely with the budget the national budget

with the budget the national budget priorities such as uh waste and water

priorities such as uh waste and water climate resilience and sustainable

climate resilience and sustainable transport.

transport. In consequence, only 4% of green sukok

In consequence, only 4% of green sukok proceeds in Indonesia went to renewable

proceeds in Indonesia went to renewable energy sector and mostly it is for

energy sector and mostly it is for off-grid electrification and smallcale

off-grid electrification and smallcale renewable energy in rural areas. So it's

renewable energy in rural areas. So it's amounted to over 21 megawatt uh of

amounted to over 21 megawatt uh of installed re capacity and distribution

installed re capacity and distribution of over two billion liters of biodeiesel

of over two billion liters of biodeiesel throughout the countries.

On the other hand, Malaysia green sukuk model are dominated by corporate less

model are dominated by corporate less sukokuk in which utility scale renewable

sukokuk in which utility scale renewable energy is gaining traction. So more than

energy is gaining traction. So more than 36% of green suk proceeds in Malaysia

36% of green suk proceeds in Malaysia went to large scale renewable energy

went to large scale renewable energy projects uh between 50 to 150 megawatt

projects uh between 50 to 150 megawatt per project and totaling to about 745

per project and totaling to about 745 megawatt uh of installed renewable

megawatt uh of installed renewable energy capacity and some are still under

energy capacity and some are still under development. So we can expect more from

development. So we can expect more from this.

this. So why does this happen and how?

So why does this happen and how? Based on our analysis, we see that clear

Based on our analysis, we see that clear eligibility criteria is really

eligibility criteria is really important. So, uh when eligibility

important. So, uh when eligibility criteria is defined really clearly and

criteria is defined really clearly and narrowly focused, it becomes

narrowly focused, it becomes significantly easier to channel

significantly easier to channel substantial funding to a specific sector

substantial funding to a specific sector in this case renewable energy sector

in this case renewable energy sector and also alignment with national

and also alignment with national renewable energy goals is really

renewable energy goals is really important. uh as we can see in Malaysia,

important. uh as we can see in Malaysia, most of the proceeds went directly to

most of the proceeds went directly to utility scale renewable energy projects

utility scale renewable energy projects under LSS and corporate PPS national

under LSS and corporate PPS national program in Malaysia.

program in Malaysia. [clears throat]

[clears throat] And uh lastly is the consistent third

And uh lastly is the consistent third party verification and transparent

party verification and transparent reporting to enhance the green

reporting to enhance the green credibility and investors trust.

credibility and investors trust. Although it might not directly link to

Although it might not directly link to allocation to renewable energy sector

allocation to renewable energy sector for example, we see that it is important

for example, we see that it is important to enhance the credibility and uh to

to enhance the credibility and uh to improve investors trust on the long run.

In conclusion, uh we see that Indonesia and Malaysia's green suk models reflect

and Malaysia's green suk models reflect uh threats of between broader climate

uh threats of between broader climate finance as we see in Indonesia green

finance as we see in Indonesia green sukok model uh versus targeted focused

sukok model uh versus targeted focused renewable energy investment in Malaysia.

renewable energy investment in Malaysia. Uh from the findings that we have

Uh from the findings that we have presented earlier, we can see that each

presented earlier, we can see that each model has strength and weaknesses. So

model has strength and weaknesses. So what if we learn from each other and

what if we learn from each other and shape gruk model and governance uh that

shape gruk model and governance uh that has uh more impacts in energy transition

has uh more impacts in energy transition especially in renewable energy

especially in renewable energy development. So here we offer three

development. So here we offer three actions to enhance green sukok impacts

actions to enhance green sukok impacts on renewable energy development. First

on renewable energy development. First is to set clear credible rules and

is to set clear credible rules and eligibility criteria to improve the

eligibility criteria to improve the clarity for investors but also to reduce

clarity for investors but also to reduce uh greenwashing and second to ensure uh

uh greenwashing and second to ensure uh sukok's proceed directly advance

sukok's proceed directly advance renewable energy goals we need to align

renewable energy goals we need to align closely with the national renewable

closely with the national renewable energy goals and targets and programs

energy goals and targets and programs and the third is to build long-term

and the third is to build long-term trust to verification and um regular

trust to verification and um regular transparent reporting and we believe

transparent reporting and we believe future research Arch should explore more

future research Arch should explore more uh about the green suk implementation in

uh about the green suk implementation in much greater detail via interviews and

much greater detail via interviews and FGDs and uh finally this is an ongoing

FGDs and uh finally this is an ongoing research so we are really open for any

research so we are really open for any feedback any questions and comments and

feedback any questions and comments and also potential to collaborate. Thank

also potential to collaborate. Thank you. [applause]

>> Um thank you thank you very much uh Miss Yuanita for the very nice presentations.

Yuanita for the very nice presentations. Um I would like to open the Q&A uh for

Um I would like to open the Q&A uh for the audience

the audience please.

Yeah. Uh just curious about the renewable energy project that you

renewable energy project that you studied in just in Indonesia. Uh is that

studied in just in Indonesia. Uh is that all renewable energy projects that's

all renewable energy projects that's been funded by the green sukok or uh how

been funded by the green sukok or uh how much parts of this

much parts of this renewable energy project for example in

renewable energy project for example in the building sector for example for

the building sector for example for building integrated photoolics and

building integrated photoolics and >> uh yeah uh any others just curious about

>> uh yeah uh any others just curious about that percentage or proportional.

that percentage or proportional. >> Yeah. Okay. So I think we can open my uh

>> Yeah. Okay. So I think we can open my uh annex slide my backup slides as I show

annex slide my backup slides as I show like a table with more details on the

like a table with more details on the sectoral allocation. Um

sectoral allocation. Um so yeah in this study we focus more on

so yeah in this study we focus more on renewable energy projects which is

renewable energy projects which is mostly on uh renewable energy power

mostly on uh renewable energy power plant and also um uh yeah so basically

plant and also um uh yeah so basically bio gas solar PV hydro power plant but

bio gas solar PV hydro power plant but mostly in Indonesia we use uh they the

mostly in Indonesia we use uh they the the proceed of green suks went to small

the proceed of green suks went to small scale and offgrid electrification in

scale and offgrid electrification in rural areas. So maybe

rural areas. So maybe we can open the backup.

we can open the backup. >> Do we have the backup slides? If we move

>> Do we have the backup slides? If we move forward

forward >> that has table. I think the last backup

>> that has table. I think the last backup slides that I have. Um the last one that

slides that I have. Um the last one that has table with numbers.

has table with numbers. Yeah, this one. So this is the sectoral

Yeah, this one. So this is the sectoral allocation of green suk in Indonesia and

allocation of green suk in Indonesia and Malaysia over years. Uh if we want to

Malaysia over years. Uh if we want to see the sectoral allocation, we can see

see the sectoral allocation, we can see on the first table uh here renewable

on the first table uh here renewable energy and then we also have green

energy and then we also have green building. So I suppose the the green

building. So I suppose the the green building um

on that but if if it is rooftop solar PV it will be under the renewable energy uh

it will be under the renewable energy uh sector still.

sector still. >> Yeah the energy efficiency.

>> Yeah the energy efficiency. >> Yeah energy efficiency mainly on energy

>> Yeah energy efficiency mainly on energy efficiency uh of uh industries uh that

efficiency uh of uh industries uh that they have here.

they have here. >> Yeah. So this is taken from the official

>> Yeah. So this is taken from the official green sukok impact reports that is

green sukok impact reports that is publicly available. So we can we can

publicly available. So we can we can check uh line by line what are the

check uh line by line what are the projects that they are funded and the

projects that they are funded and the description and when comparing the two

description and when comparing the two grins models Indonesia and Malaysia when

grins models Indonesia and Malaysia when comparing the both reports uh I can see

comparing the both reports uh I can see that Indonesia's reports are quite

that Indonesia's reports are quite detailed but then uh it's not um uh they

detailed but then uh it's not um uh they did not they did not really disclose in

did not they did not really disclose in detail of how much capacity per project

detail of how much capacity per project because some projects are bundled up

because some projects are bundled up into one whereas in Malaysia's corporate

into one whereas in Malaysia's corporate green souk uh impact reports are

green souk uh impact reports are sometimes really clear because usually

sometimes really clear because usually one issuance only to to fund one uh

one issuance only to to fund one uh project one big scale project. One

project one big scale project. One simple question if I may.

simple question if I may. >> Uh do you know why for example green

>> Uh do you know why for example green building and revenue energy is

building and revenue energy is >> uh quite small compared to others and do

>> uh quite small compared to others and do you have any idea how to accelerate I

you have any idea how to accelerate I mean yeah

mean yeah >> in the future for example. Thank you.

>> in the future for example. Thank you. >> Yeah uh thank you so much for the

>> Yeah uh thank you so much for the question. Yeah as I mentioned in the

question. Yeah as I mentioned in the presentations that Indonesia's green suk

presentations that Indonesia's green suk are all sovereign luk. So the suk that

are all sovereign luk. So the suk that is issued by the government. Uh so it

is issued by the government. Uh so it went through climate budget tagging. So

went through climate budget tagging. So it really uh aligned with the national

it really uh aligned with the national priorities at that time. uh so when we

priorities at that time. uh so when we can see here we can see clearly that

can see here we can see clearly that waste and water climate resilience and

waste and water climate resilience and sustainable transport is uh the top

sustainable transport is uh the top three focus of the current government.

three focus of the current government. Uh however if the priorities change in

Uh however if the priorities change in the future it might also change the

the future it might also change the composition. Yeah

composition. Yeah >> thank you. Thank you.

>> thank you. Thank you. >> I I also want to ask the energy

>> I I also want to ask the energy efficiency but maybe quick question. So

efficiency but maybe quick question. So who managed the green sukok in

who managed the green sukok in Indonesia?

Indonesia? >> Uh gruk in Indonesia is managed by the

>> Uh gruk in Indonesia is managed by the ministry of finance uh with

ministry of finance uh with collaboration with other ministries as

collaboration with other ministries as well.

well. >> So the discretion of allocation in

>> So the discretion of allocation in ministry of finance.

ministry of finance. >> Yeah. But they all lies with the

>> Yeah. But they all lies with the sectoral ministries for example ministry

sectoral ministries for example ministry of energy and also ministry of

of energy and also ministry of environment on uh allocating the the

environment on uh allocating the the resources and the proceeds.

resources and the proceeds. >> Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. uh

>> Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. uh apologize that due to the time

apologize that due to the time limitation I would like to move to the

limitation I would like to move to the next presentations.

next presentations. Thank you very much uh Miss Yuanita and

Thank you very much uh Miss Yuanita and I would like to call Mr. Rifki Hakim

I would like to call Mr. Rifki Hakim Dewanto who will share with us the

Dewanto who will share with us the fragmentations conflicts or cooperations

fragmentations conflicts or cooperations lessons from Indonesian evolving role in

lessons from Indonesian evolving role in global carbon markets. Please the time

global carbon markets. Please the time is yours.

>> Yeah, thank you very much. Um good morning everyone. Uh my name is Rifki.

morning everyone. Uh my name is Rifki. I'm from Wakan University and research

I'm from Wakan University and research and maybe we've been talking about

and maybe we've been talking about numbers, investments and my

numbers, investments and my presentations will be a little bit

presentations will be a little bit different. It will be a little bit

different. It will be a little bit conceptual and I'll be talking about how

conceptual and I'll be talking about how carbon market evolves in Indonesia. Can

carbon market evolves in Indonesia. Can I use this here?

I use this here? Yeah. So, I would like to open my

Yeah. So, I would like to open my presentation with a question uh how do

presentation with a question uh how do we deal with climate change? As we know

we deal with climate change? As we know we have to decarbonize, we have to

we have to decarbonize, we have to reduce emissions. So one thing that we

reduce emissions. So one thing that we can do is to make emitting emissions

can do is to make emitting emissions more expensive right um so we put price

more expensive right um so we put price on emitting emissions and the next is we

on emitting emissions and the next is we can sell emission allowance for example

can sell emission allowance for example that's what we know as emission

that's what we know as emission shredding system and the next is to we

shredding system and the next is to we can pay other entity to do emission

can pay other entity to do emission reductions on our behalf or what we know

reductions on our behalf or what we know as baseline and offset um mechanisms and

as baseline and offset um mechanisms and this three uh combination is what we

this three uh combination is what we know as carbon market and this carbon

know as carbon market and this carbon market is one of the most popular policy

market is one of the most popular policy instrument market that we have been

instrument market that we have been using for the last uh three decades or

using for the last uh three decades or 30 years um in dealing with climate

30 years um in dealing with climate change. We use it to drive climate

change. We use it to drive climate ambitions. We use it to drive climate

ambitions. We use it to drive climate mitigation actions. We use it to drive

mitigation actions. We use it to drive renewable energy investments in

renewable energy investments in Indonesia and it has been growing quite

Indonesia and it has been growing quite a lot in the last 30 years. So much so

a lot in the last 30 years. So much so that right now uh carbon market in the

that right now uh carbon market in the global sense is very fragmented

global sense is very fragmented actually. For example, um in the Kyoto

actually. For example, um in the Kyoto protocol era, we have the clean

protocol era, we have the clean development mechanisms. Outside the

development mechanisms. Outside the Kyoto protocol, we have the VCM or the

Kyoto protocol, we have the VCM or the voluntary carbon market. And then we

voluntary carbon market. And then we have in each country, we have some kind

have in each country, we have some kind of uh another carbon market framework.

of uh another carbon market framework. We have the EU ETS. We have China ETS.

We have the EU ETS. We have China ETS. Indonesia has also just launched our new

Indonesia has also just launched our new carbon market framework in 2021. So

carbon market framework in 2021. So interactions becomes really tricky. What

interactions becomes really tricky. What what is the right carbon price? What is

what is the right carbon price? What is the right MRV system? how do we deal

the right MRV system? how do we deal with cross system transactions and etc.

with cross system transactions and etc. So based on this introductions uh and

So based on this introductions uh and this background um I'm I'm very curious

this background um I'm I'm very curious because I've been seeing a lot of

because I've been seeing a lot of developments of Indonesia's new carbon

developments of Indonesia's new carbon market since 2021. So be because there

market since 2021. So be because there are a lot of like interactions with the

are a lot of like interactions with the voluntary carbon market and uh so the

voluntary carbon market and uh so the the million-dollar question I would say

the million-dollar question I would say is how would the increasingly fragmented

is how would the increasingly fragmented carbon markets interact with each other

carbon markets interact with each other right and are they going to sync with

right and are they going to sync with each other or are they going to be

each other or are they going to be conflict with each other but there are

conflict with each other but there are two caveats that I I think I need to

two caveats that I I think I need to address here uh that carbon market

address here uh that carbon market design is a political choice and it's

design is a political choice and it's also does not develop in a vacuum but

also does not develop in a vacuum but actually depend and respond to the

actually depend and respond to the interest of actors.

interest of actors. So in that sense I go to Indonesia not

So in that sense I go to Indonesia not just because I'm Indonesian but uh

just because I'm Indonesian but uh because I think it's a really

because I think it's a really interesting case uh of carbon market

interesting case uh of carbon market development. So Indonesia is a nonx1

development. So Indonesia is a nonx1 country. What this means is that

country. What this means is that Indonesia in the past during the cur

Indonesia in the past during the cur protocol era we have been implementing a

protocol era we have been implementing a CDM as a host country uh as because we

CDM as a host country uh as because we are nonX1 and then we have also have a

are nonX1 and then we have also have a lot of VCM projects since

lot of VCM projects since 15 or 2017 and uh as I said before in

15 or 2017 and uh as I said before in 2021 we just knew uh launched a new

2021 we just knew uh launched a new national carbon market framework.

national carbon market framework. So this is just research question. So

So this is just research question. So what I will see is that this the first

what I will see is that this the first thing the approach is that I will see

thing the approach is that I will see carbon market as an institution. Um so

carbon market as an institution. Um so what I I want to see is that how the

what I I want to see is that how the regulations have changed of us over

regulations have changed of us over time. How have the key actors that

time. How have the key actors that involve in carbon markets Indonesia have

involve in carbon markets Indonesia have changed over time. Have the relationship

changed over time. Have the relationship changed and have the norms and principle

changed and have the norms and principle that drive the carbon market

that drive the carbon market implementation in Indonesia also

implementation in Indonesia also changed. So I try to trace the

changed. So I try to trace the development of carbon market for the

development of carbon market for the last three decades in Indonesia.

last three decades in Indonesia. So this is just a little bit about the

So this is just a little bit about the methology. I interviewed a lot of people

methology. I interviewed a lot of people a lot of from from the government,

a lot of from from the government, academia, NOS, CSOS and many more.

academia, NOS, CSOS and many more. So I would like to bring you a little

So I would like to bring you a little bit about the theoretical background of

bit about the theoretical background of this uh research. So as I said before,

this uh research. So as I said before, I'm looking carbon market as an

I'm looking carbon market as an institution. So when I talk about CDM, I

institution. So when I talk about CDM, I see that as a separate institution. When

see that as a separate institution. When I talk about VCM, I see that as a

I talk about VCM, I see that as a separate institution. And uh for the new

separate institution. And uh for the new Indonesian carbon market that's also

Indonesian carbon market that's also another separate institutions. The

another separate institutions. The reason being is that because each of

reason being is that because each of these institutions are supported by

these institutions are supported by different regulations. They're supported

different regulations. They're supported by different actors and they're also

by different actors and they're also supported by different ideas and norms

supported by different ideas and norms and principles in how this uh cover

and principles in how this uh cover market uh operationalized. And by

market uh operationalized. And by looking at uh as an instit in

looking at uh as an instit in institutions we can see the embedding

institutions we can see the embedding process which means that we can see how

process which means that we can see how cover market is being affected by the

cover market is being affected by the socopolitical context and the other

socopolitical context and the other thing is that when we see carbon market

thing is that when we see carbon market as an institution we can see how they

as an institution we can see how they interact with each other how the CDM

interact with each other how the CDM interact with the VCM uh and how does

interact with the VCM uh and how does VCM interact with the new Indonesia's uh

VCM interact with the new Indonesia's uh carbon market. So we can see whether

carbon market. So we can see whether they are synergistic,

they are synergistic, whether they are cooperative or or are

whether they are cooperative or or are they conflictive. So are they in sync

they conflictive. So are they in sync with each other or are they um just run

with each other or are they um just run in parallel basically or are they

in parallel basically or are they basically canceling each other out. So

basically canceling each other out. So that's not what we want.

that's not what we want. So

So my finding is that in the beginning uh

my finding is that in the beginning uh CDM start the shape of the global carbon

CDM start the shape of the global carbon market. We we know that uh the the main

market. We we know that uh the the main regulatory pillar of the CDM is the CUDA

regulatory pillar of the CDM is the CUDA protocol and there are several several

protocol and there are several several ideas that support the existence of

ideas that support the existence of global carbon market is the first is of

global carbon market is the first is of course the social value of

course the social value of decarbonizations

decarbonizations between the country states because we

between the country states because we understand that it's really important to

understand that it's really important to decarbonize and to deal with climate

decarbonize and to deal with climate change and there's also the spirit of um

change and there's also the spirit of um achieving sustainable development

achieving sustainable development because we believe that economic growth

because we believe that economic growth can be sustained also So at the same

can be sustained also So at the same time with the uh environmental

time with the uh environmental protections and the third and this is

protections and the third and this is one of the most important characteristic

one of the most important characteristic of the CDM is the common but

of the CDM is the common but differentiated responsibility is that we

differentiated responsibility is that we believe that because state each state

believe that because state each state has different capacity for example for

has different capacity for example for NX1 countries basically the rich

NX1 countries basically the rich countries they have more resources and

countries they have more resources and they need to help the non-NX1 countries

they need to help the non-NX1 countries so that's why the NX1 countries they

so that's why the NX1 countries they become the the investors so to say to

become the the investors so to say to the non-NX1 countries to implement CDM

the non-NX1 countries to implement CDM projects such as Indonesia.

projects such as Indonesia. And this um finally the the very um

And this um finally the the very um basic um norms or ideas that support the

basic um norms or ideas that support the the existence of global carbon market is

the existence of global carbon market is that we believe that by using

that we believe that by using marketbased instrument we can have

marketbased instrument we can have economic rationality in dealing with

economic rationality in dealing with climate change. We believe it will lead

climate change. We believe it will lead to economic growth lead to energy

to economic growth lead to energy investments and we believe it will be

investments and we believe it will be the most economic efficient ones. So

the most economic efficient ones. So based on this um situation um a set of

based on this um situation um a set of relationship occur. For example,

relationship occur. For example, Indonesia, we become a recipient

Indonesia, we become a recipient basically as uh for the donors or the

basically as uh for the donors or the the investors from the NX1 countries

the investors from the NX1 countries and at the same time uh the CDM uh also

and at the same time uh the CDM uh also gave rise to the voluntary cover market

gave rise to the voluntary cover market because CDM is connected to the Kod

because CDM is connected to the Kod protocol whereas the VCM is more

protocol whereas the VCM is more supported by the corporate actors and

supported by the corporate actors and they work basically cooperatively

they work basically cooperatively because in the beginning uh they just

because in the beginning uh they just basically exist um in parallel with each

basically exist um in parallel with each other And actually the VCM work more

other And actually the VCM work more sort of like a sandbox as a as a as a

sort of like a sandbox as a as a as a piloting task for the CDM and etc. So

piloting task for the CDM and etc. So they they they this

they they they this support each other but also not so much

support each other but also not so much uh working together.

uh working together. And how does it mean in Indonesia? Um so

And how does it mean in Indonesia? Um so Indonesia actually ratified the Juro

Indonesia actually ratified the Juro protocol seven years after the the the

protocol seven years after the the the protocol started. So Indonesia just

protocol started. So Indonesia just ratified it in 2004 because Indonesia

ratified it in 2004 because Indonesia was just um recovering from the SS

was just um recovering from the SS economic crisis from the um from the

economic crisis from the um from the reformations and there are a lot of

reformations and there are a lot of interest to capture international

interest to capture international investment to support Indonesia

investment to support Indonesia sustainable economic growth. So that's

sustainable economic growth. So that's the reason why Indonesia established a

the reason why Indonesia established a carbon market in the first place and

carbon market in the first place and what triggered there are two important

what triggered there are two important there there another important policy

there there another important policy milestone that triggered the development

milestone that triggered the development of carbon market Indonesia is the reed

of carbon market Indonesia is the reed instit institutionalization and this

instit institutionalization and this because there are a lot of uh interest

because there are a lot of uh interest in capturing the incentives of um

in capturing the incentives of um preserving forest Indonesia

preserving forest Indonesia and hence Indonesia become number one

and hence Indonesia become number one supplier of carbon credits in VCM. So in

supplier of carbon credits in VCM. So in this era until 2015 I would say carbon

this era until 2015 I would say carbon market Indonesia actually cooperate very

market Indonesia actually cooperate very cooperatively between CDM and VCM

cooperatively between CDM and VCM because uh in the end what the carbon

because uh in the end what the carbon market is for Indonesia is to made for

market is for Indonesia is to made for and cater to international actors and

and cater to international actors and this is to capture uh investments and

this is to capture uh investments and incentives but things start to change

incentives but things start to change when we shift to the Paris agreement. So

when we shift to the Paris agreement. So now uh all the countries in the world

now uh all the countries in the world needs to have the NDC right the

needs to have the NDC right the nationally determined contributions. So

nationally determined contributions. So the current market Indonesia cannot

the current market Indonesia cannot function as a tool to only capture uh

function as a tool to only capture uh international international investment

international international investment but it is also a tool to achieve NDC's

but it is also a tool to achieve NDC's target Indonesia. So in that sense under

target Indonesia. So in that sense under that under that um under that context

that under that um under that context Indonesia government actually prohibited

Indonesia government actually prohibited a lot of creation of uh uh carbon

a lot of creation of uh uh carbon projects in 2017 and they're also

projects in 2017 and they're also developing the new carbon market

developing the new carbon market framework. So uh as we can see here

framework. So uh as we can see here after the NDC is established we are um

after the NDC is established we are um making nuts and bolts of the the new

making nuts and bolts of the the new Indonesian carbon market framework

Indonesian carbon market framework and by 2020 at 2021 Indonesia launched

and by 2020 at 2021 Indonesia launched the new cover market. uh we're basically

the new cover market. uh we're basically breaking off from the CDM and the VCM

breaking off from the CDM and the VCM and we are now establishing our new

and we are now establishing our new carbon market framework and onwards from

carbon market framework and onwards from 2021 all carbon projects needs to be

2021 all carbon projects needs to be accounted towards NDC and utilize the

accounted towards NDC and utilize the new carbon market framework and this

new carbon market framework and this causes a lot of conflicts with the VCM

causes a lot of conflicts with the VCM because uh in the beginning um

because uh in the beginning um Indonesian cover market is for

Indonesian cover market is for international actors but after the NBC

international actors but after the NBC what we we are focusing in is for the

what we we are focusing in is for the domestic actors but the thing is um at

domestic actors but the thing is um at least until this research was written uh

least until this research was written uh there were there were no um mutual

there were there were no um mutual recognition between VCM standards such

recognition between VCM standards such as but right now we have mutual recog

as but right now we have mutual recog standards such as with Farah and etc.

standards such as with Farah and etc. But before there were no mutual

But before there were no mutual recognition. So uh it was basically

recognition. So uh it was basically canceling each other out. So they are

canceling each other out. So they are conflicting with each other.

conflicting with each other. And there are a lot of um domestic

And there are a lot of um domestic unreadiness in the new uh new carbon

unreadiness in the new uh new carbon market framework because uh at least

market framework because uh at least until this research is written only 20%

until this research is written only 20% of the issued carbon credits is retired.

of the issued carbon credits is retired. So it means there are not a lot of

So it means there are not a lot of domestic demands of the issued carbon

domestic demands of the issued carbon credits which is which makes sense which

credits which is which makes sense which makes sense because uh the demand for

makes sense because uh the demand for carbon market is not natural. It is

carbon market is not natural. It is created by regulations and if there are

created by regulations and if there are no clear regulations yet to to to

no clear regulations yet to to to attract or to trigger the demand. Of

attract or to trigger the demand. Of course uh there will not be like a very

course uh there will not be like a very liquid market in Indonesia for carbon

liquid market in Indonesia for carbon market. And the most interesting uh

market. And the most interesting uh thing uh interesting things also is that

thing uh interesting things also is that uh so far um the only cabba projects

uh so far um the only cabba projects that is in Indonesian cab market is uh

that is in Indonesian cab market is uh energy or technology based and they're

energy or technology based and they're not yet forestry projects because the

not yet forestry projects because the regulation has not been launched whereas

regulation has not been launched whereas actually forests is the most popular

actually forests is the most popular ones before. So what we see here is that

ones before. So what we see here is that there's a pruning of the global carbon

there's a pruning of the global carbon market framework. So what we think

market framework. So what we think carbon market should uh push the

carbon market should uh push the carbonizations actually in Indonesia um

carbonizations actually in Indonesia um um the idea is more pronounced is about

um the idea is more pronounced is about attracting in incentives international

attracting in incentives international investments um and there are a lot of

investments um and there are a lot of like uh internationally powered actors

like uh internationally powered actors um that we borrow the power to establish

um that we borrow the power to establish the carbon market Indonesia.

the carbon market Indonesia. So I will skip this a little bit. So

So I will skip this a little bit. So what what does it mean for the future of

what what does it mean for the future of global carbon market? So there are three

global carbon market? So there are three things I think it is important. The

things I think it is important. The first is that we need to streamline the

first is that we need to streamline the government involvement in carbon market

government involvement in carbon market oper operationalizations. Yes of course

oper operationalizations. Yes of course uh centralization is important but we

uh centralization is important but we need to also let the market run its

need to also let the market run its course. And the second is we need to

course. And the second is we need to solve complication in linkages of

solve complication in linkages of various carbon markets. So mutual

various carbon markets. So mutual recognitions more synchronized between

recognitions more synchronized between the carbon market frameworks such as the

the carbon market frameworks such as the Asan common carbon framework. is one of

Asan common carbon framework. is one of a good examples and we need to ensure

a good examples and we need to ensure the synergy in the fragmented global

the synergy in the fragmented global cover market. So

cover market. So in conclusion, uh the global carbon

in conclusion, uh the global carbon markets in Indonesia triggered the

markets in Indonesia triggered the development of Indonesia's new own

development of Indonesia's new own carbon market. Although the

carbon market. Although the international dominated scene limits the

international dominated scene limits the ability of domestic actors and the

ability of domestic actors and the conflicts with other carbon market

conflicts with other carbon market institutions such as the VCM actually

institutions such as the VCM actually reflects deeper issue and there is an

reflects deeper issue and there is an uneasy mix of market rationality and

uneasy mix of market rationality and climate justice and I think that's all

climate justice and I think that's all from me and thank you.

from me and thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you very much uh Mr.

>> Thank you. Thank you very much uh Mr. key. So I would like to open the

key. So I would like to open the question from audience please

question from audience please due to time limitation maybe quick ones

due to time limitation maybe quick ones >> one question in your methodology uh I'm

>> one question in your methodology uh I'm not sure what I'm sorry uh about your

not sure what I'm sorry uh about your objective or your study but in your

objective or your study but in your methodology I think you in my opinion

methodology I think you in my opinion you miss some one of the important

you miss some one of the important institution to be interviewed ministry

institution to be interviewed ministry of uh public works since the

of uh public works since the infrastructure infrastructure is

infrastructure infrastructure is contribute uh almost onethird of the

contribute uh almost onethird of the carbon emission and that's why this is

carbon emission and that's why this is also huge uh potentials for the I think

also huge uh potentials for the I think if you interviewed interview the

if you interviewed interview the minister of rebu so the conclusion might

minister of rebu so the conclusion might be a bit different so as you know that

be a bit different so as you know that next to me uh I dana so she is vice

next to me uh I dana so she is vice minister of the public works

minister of the public works IU mandri so uh you can interview

IU mandri so uh you can interview >> [laughter]

>> [laughter] >> I would love to.

>> I would love to. >> Yeah. And uh she will present uh in the

>> Yeah. And uh she will present uh in the next session in the 305. So if you are

next session in the 305. So if you are available please uh I think she will

available please uh I think she will present very interesting about the

present very interesting about the energy efficient program in Indonesia. I

energy efficient program in Indonesia. I think you Thank you. Just a small

think you Thank you. Just a small question. Thank you.

question. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. Uh yes. Yeah. Um uh

>> Thank you very much. Uh yes. Yeah. Um uh yes, of course. I would love to

yes, of course. I would love to interview like more sexual ministries,

interview like more sexual ministries, but uh it was more like a time limit. I

but uh it was more like a time limit. I would say like instead of uh instead of

would say like instead of uh instead of negligence like I don't want to

negligence like I don't want to interview the ministry of public works.

interview the ministry of public works. It's more like a time constraints of

It's more like a time constraints of issues. But I would really be happy to

issues. But I would really be happy to listen to Buddha's presentations uh next

listen to Buddha's presentations uh next door, right? I think and after lunch if

door, right? I think and after lunch if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. Thank you.

I'm not mistaken. Yeah. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. and second

>> Thank you very much. and second questions please.

>> Um thank you so much for interesting presentations. Um um I just jump quick

presentations. Um um I just jump quick straight to the uh questions because um

straight to the uh questions because um I'm also interested in carbon market and

I'm also interested in carbon market and uh I learned that with with regard to

uh I learned that with with regard to car market there's two side of debate

car market there's two side of debate right one side is a market based

right one side is a market based mechanisms and it will be a very big

mechanisms and it will be a very big opportunity for a country for

opportunity for a country for decarbonization but on the other side I

decarbonization but on the other side I think I think a lot of Saudi Asia I come

think I think a lot of Saudi Asia I come from my in Thailand so I've worked with

from my in Thailand so I've worked with the community a lot and there's

the community a lot and there's discussions about how from the civil

discussions about how from the civil society

society discussions about social justice and

discussions about social justice and what how much benefit is going to the um

what how much benefit is going to the um community right so there has been a lot

community right so there has been a lot of criticism for the cover market so I

of criticism for the cover market so I want to understand what do you think in

want to understand what do you think in your study institution I think you study

your study institution I think you study institutional norms right so how does

institutional norms right so how does these um community and civil society

these um community and civil society voices about the social justice shaped

voices about the social justice shaped these uh common market as an

these uh common market as an institutions and how have they been um

institutions and how have they been um how have they shaped this uh the

how have they shaped this uh the progress their journey towards this uh

progress their journey towards this uh global market. Thank you.

global market. Thank you. >> Yeah, thank you very much. I think it's

>> Yeah, thank you very much. I think it's a very um important question about the

a very um important question about the social justice in carbon market. So c

social justice in carbon market. So c what is the role of cso or NGO if I may

what is the role of cso or NGO if I may extend the question a little bit. So for

extend the question a little bit. So for example um WWF

example um WWF uh back in 2007. So after the CDM was

uh back in 2007. So after the CDM was launched uh we have the voluntary cover

launched uh we have the voluntary cover market and voluntary cover market

market and voluntary cover market requires standards and registries right

requires standards and registries right we have the farah for example we have

we have the farah for example we have the gold standards with plan vivo and uh

the gold standards with plan vivo and uh back in 2007 WWF actually collaborates

back in 2007 WWF actually collaborates with other actors to create a new

with other actors to create a new standards that we now know as gold

standards that we now know as gold standards. So in that sense uh how NGO

standards. So in that sense uh how NGO can contribute is the co-creations of

can contribute is the co-creations of those kind of methodologies and

those kind of methodologies and safeguarding principles and um uh people

safeguarding principles and um uh people on the ground actually to to to control

on the ground actually to to to control and monitor about the social impacts and

and monitor about the social impacts and the the the benefit sharing of the

the the the benefit sharing of the carbon projects. So that's one one

carbon projects. So that's one one example that I think um in the future

example that I think um in the future it's really important that this NOS's

it's really important that this NOS's and CSOS are um more aware because there

and CSOS are um more aware because there are a lot of interest of carbon market I

are a lot of interest of carbon market I think uh in all over the world including

think uh in all over the world including in Indonesia. Um but to also see uh to

in Indonesia. Um but to also see uh to be like a watchdog I would say to these

be like a watchdog I would say to these carbon projects on the ground whether uh

carbon projects on the ground whether uh uh the social aspects of these carbon

uh the social aspects of these carbon projects are being respected and and

projects are being respected and and benefited the society as a whole. I

benefited the society as a whole. I think that would be my answer.

think that would be my answer. >> Thank you very much. Big round of

>> Thank you very much. Big round of applause to Mr. Rifki. Thank you very

applause to Mr. Rifki. Thank you very much. So, um I would like to call the

much. So, um I would like to call the next presentation. I think we'll change

next presentation. I think we'll change a bit. So, I would like to call Miss

a bit. So, I would like to call Miss Irasanti.

Irasanti. Yeah. Which will share with us a

Yeah. Which will share with us a conceptual tax credit innovation from

conceptual tax credit innovation from Indonesia to green Asian's financial

Indonesia to green Asian's financial landscape.

landscape. So, the Yeah, screens is yours.

Uh my name is Era. So here I'm corker with Dr. Erin Suryadi, Kenet Gawan and

with Dr. Erin Suryadi, Kenet Gawan and Kavin Gunawan. So today's I would like

Kavin Gunawan. So today's I would like to present about the conceptual tax

to present about the conceptual tax credit innovation from Indonesian to

credit innovation from Indonesian to green Asian landscape. So the basic

green Asian landscape. So the basic concept actually is from policy ambition

concept actually is from policy ambition versus financing barriers. If you see

versus financing barriers. If you see the red light in here, we see that

the red light in here, we see that actually Asian have a net zero pledge.

actually Asian have a net zero pledge. But if you see in the red light

But if you see in the red light indicators

indicators there are financing barriers and also

there are financing barriers and also project bankability. project bank

project bankability. project bank capability. One of uh the indicator is

capability. One of uh the indicator is WACC which is Indonesia and uh Asian

WACC which is Indonesia and uh Asian still facing the high project bank

still facing the high project bank capability which is it make renewable

capability which is it make renewable energy less attractive than the uh

energy less attractive than the uh non-renewable energy like a coal. So if

non-renewable energy like a coal. So if you see max is still 11.5%.

you see max is still 11.5%. So therefore we are proposing an

So therefore we are proposing an innovative in financial instrument to

innovative in financial instrument to shift the investment because as you see

shift the investment because as you see why we still invest to non-renewable

why we still invest to non-renewable we will see in here. So for Indonesia,

we will see in here. So for Indonesia, why Indonesia still depend on a coal?

why Indonesia still depend on a coal? You can see the we actually have an

You can see the we actually have an energy mix target but only 17 province

energy mix target but only 17 province if I'm not mistaken that already met the

if I'm not mistaken that already met the target but if you see in Java it's still

target but if you see in Java it's still below the target and if you see the cost

below the target and if you see the cost why people like to invest more on the

why people like to invest more on the coal the cost of the coal is only 700

coal the cost of the coal is only 700 and if you see the solar panel it's

and if you see the solar panel it's about seven times almost seven times is

about seven times almost seven times is 4,700

4,700 rupees. So we need something that to

rupees. So we need something that to shift like private funding. We need

shift like private funding. We need private and we need also government uh

private and we need also government uh method funding to shift from uh

method funding to shift from uh nonrenewable to more renewable energy.

nonrenewable to more renewable energy. So in here is my financing model with uh

So in here is my financing model with uh other coorders. We use the weighted

other coorders. We use the weighted average capital cost. This is uh

average capital cost. This is uh actually to measure about the project

actually to measure about the project bankability.

bankability. Uh so in using a tax credit we expect

Uh so in using a tax credit we expect that it will lower the cost of dep

that it will lower the cost of dep because tax credit is being used as

because tax credit is being used as collateral and then the capital

collateral and then the capital structure will be lower as well as well

structure will be lower as well as well as the cost of equity. So we expect by

as the cost of equity. So we expect by imposing the tax credit as collateral

imposing the tax credit as collateral the WACC will be reduced from 8.9% to

the WACC will be reduced from 8.9% to become 79%. This is assumption in the

become 79%. This is assumption in the US. We'll go with letter. So this is uh

US. We'll go with letter. So this is uh actually the scheme uh tax credit is

actually the scheme uh tax credit is well known an incentive actually. Yes,

well known an incentive actually. Yes, it's not yet in Indonesia but it's

it's not yet in Indonesia but it's possibility to be applied in Indonesia.

possibility to be applied in Indonesia. So basically this is a tax incentive to

So basically this is a tax incentive to reduce tax liability for business or for

reduce tax liability for business or for individual as well. So if we integrate

individual as well. So if we integrate the tax credit like uh US project uh it

the tax credit like uh US project uh it could be production tax credit and

could be production tax credit and investment tax credit. What's the

investment tax credit. What's the different? So production the more you

different? So production the more you produce the more you get tax credit

produce the more you get tax credit while for the investment the more you

while for the investment the more you invest the more you get the tax credit.

invest the more you get the tax credit. So if you want to use this as a

So if you want to use this as a collateral, it will higher uh coll your

collateral, it will higher uh coll your collateral uh your equity and then this

collateral uh your equity and then this will help you to lower risk perception

will help you to lower risk perception actually. So the banks see this as

actually. So the banks see this as another collateral. So we expect them to

another collateral. So we expect them to lowering the uh interest rate for the

lowering the uh interest rate for the loan at first and then for the indirect.

loan at first and then for the indirect. So the investors see okay this is less

So the investors see okay this is less risk. So the lower interest rate so it's

risk. So the lower interest rate so it's becoming more project bankability

becoming more project bankability because the reduced WACC improve the

because the reduced WACC improve the bankability.

bankability. So this tax credit as collateral has

So this tax credit as collateral has been implied under inflation reduction

been implied under inflation reduction act IRA like my name. [laughter]

act IRA like my name. [laughter] So this has been uh applied for the

So this has been uh applied for the north fork solar with bank of America

north fork solar with bank of America transaction like 100 million uh dollars

transaction like 100 million uh dollars that using the tax credit as a

that using the tax credit as a collateral if you see this this what I

collateral if you see this this what I using the assumption this assumption

using the assumption this assumption uh based on our simulation it's reducing

uh based on our simulation it's reducing the WACC from 8.9 to 7.8 8 uh if you see

the WACC from 8.9 to 7.8 8 uh if you see in here before the IRA 75% tax equity is

in here before the IRA 75% tax equity is just a structures it's just a static

just a structures it's just a static relief while after the IRA we see that

relief while after the IRA we see that 90% of the tax credit is transferable so

90% of the tax credit is transferable so it's a great using of something that

it's a great using of something that just static to become financial uh

just static to become financial uh instrument to the market

instrument to the market so next if we are uh great there is no

so next if we are uh great there is no mascalani in here because he really

mascalani in here because he really [laughter] know better about the low

[laughter] know better about the low cost of electricity actually. So if you

cost of electricity actually. So if you see in here the WACC if you are using

see in here the WACC if you are using this basic assumption in Indonesia so

this basic assumption in Indonesia so corporate tax in Indonesia is 20 22%

corporate tax in Indonesia is 20 22% while the US is 21%.

while the US is 21%. We expect the model scenario the WACC

We expect the model scenario the WACC could reduce the WACC from 11.2 2 to

could reduce the WACC from 11.2 2 to become to become 7.5 by inducing the tax

become to become 7.5 by inducing the tax uh credit as collateral.

uh credit as collateral. So impacting to the cost of electricity

So impacting to the cost of electricity because we see uh the formula for the

because we see uh the formula for the BPP is also have a WACCC variable in

BPP is also have a WACCC variable in that we expect the solar power will be

that we expect the solar power will be reduced cost about 25 to 30%. While for

reduced cost about 25 to 30%. While for the geothermal will be reduced from uh

the geothermal will be reduced from uh about 10 to 15%. If you see the

about 10 to 15%. If you see the geothermal with coal it's shrinking the

geothermal with coal it's shrinking the gap. if we are inducing the tax credit

gap. if we are inducing the tax credit but if you see solar yes it's still high

but if you see solar yes it's still high but actually it's more uh moving forward

but actually it's more uh moving forward to PPA approval threshold although it's

to PPA approval threshold although it's still high that's why I'm asking like

still high that's why I'm asking like probably green suk energy bit it could

probably green suk energy bit it could help to make the solar could more moving

help to make the solar could more moving forward to PPA national threshold

forward to PPA national threshold national threshold is only 4,400

national threshold is only 4,400 if I'm not mistaken but for the solar in

if I'm not mistaken but for the solar in region because uh as Mascal Stalani

region because uh as Mascal Stalani previously mentioned it's uh different

previously mentioned it's uh different in region so is region for solar is

in region so is region for solar is around 3,000 so it's moving forward if

around 3,000 so it's moving forward if we are in imposing the tax credit to the

we are in imposing the tax credit to the solar PV project

solar PV project so this is my last slide this is

so this is my last slide this is actually so the result in discussion we

actually so the result in discussion we expect that on micro level we really

expect that on micro level we really expect the tax credit if using as a

expect the tax credit if using as a collateral. It could be uh increase the

collateral. It could be uh increase the project bankability. So investor would

project bankability. So investor would shift from the non-renewable to

shift from the non-renewable to renewable energy because it's less risky

renewable energy because it's less risky right now after using the tax credit as

right now after using the tax credit as collateral. On the micro level if I'm

collateral. On the micro level if I'm not mistaken I just read about the

not mistaken I just read about the ministry of finance report they they are

ministry of finance report they they are using a recursive dynamics CGE modeling

using a recursive dynamics CGE modeling to see the evaluate green invest fiscal

to see the evaluate green invest fiscal tool. So if the there are many project

tool. So if the there are many project could use the tax credit as cultural we

could use the tax credit as cultural we can see the aggregate impacts for the

can see the aggregate impacts for the future is it effective or not there is

future is it effective or not there is future research of course and then for

future research of course and then for the regional level we see this is a

the regional level we see this is a crossborder recognition of tax credit as

crossborder recognition of tax credit as collateral yes tax credit is remain

collateral yes tax credit is remain sovereign but it's just a trust between

sovereign but it's just a trust between Asian regional to to accept this as

Asian regional to to accept this as collateral that's what we need So this

collateral that's what we need So this could be used as well like professor

could be used as well like professor said at the early uh speak it could be

said at the early uh speak it could be used as well for the Asian joint

used as well for the Asian joint renewable project and actually is

renewable project and actually is already aligned with Asian green finance

already aligned with Asian green finance taxonomy to deepen regional capital

taxonomy to deepen regional capital markets. So basically the innovation

markets. So basically the innovation about the

about the uh this paper is about no extra fiscal

uh this paper is about no extra fiscal burden. So we don't create new incentive

burden. So we don't create new incentive but we are use the static incentive to

but we are use the static incentive to become attractive and to become dynamic

become attractive and to become dynamic in uh collateral for the renewable

in uh collateral for the renewable energy projects. So we want to shift the

energy projects. So we want to shift the investment you as professor say

investment you as professor say investment is tradeoff it's the same

investment is tradeoff it's the same actually for non-renewable and

actually for non-renewable and renewable. So because of the trade-off,

renewable. So because of the trade-off, we want to make the renewable energy

we want to make the renewable energy more attractive rather than the

more attractive rather than the non-renewable energy. So we are imposing

non-renewable energy. So we are imposing the tax credit rather than just a static

the tax credit rather than just a static t tax credit. We want to integrate as a

t tax credit. We want to integrate as a collateral. So it will increase the

collateral. So it will increase the project bankability and bridging fiscal

project bankability and bridging fiscal policy with the green finance. I think

policy with the green finance. I think that's all for me. Thank you.

that's all for me. Thank you. >> Thank you very much uh for the present.

If not then maybe one question from me. Um so this uh regional level is actually

Um so this uh regional level is actually quite interesting. Uh maybe the question

quite interesting. Uh maybe the question is uh is it also happening somewhere

is uh is it also happening somewhere else in the US or in the European case

else in the US or in the European case that the tax credit as uh uh yeah for

that the tax credit as uh uh yeah for new uh assets can be recognized cross

new uh assets can be recognized cross border.

border. >> Okay. Uh so basically it's still on the

>> Okay. Uh so basically it's still on the US and Europe but if we see that

US and Europe but if we see that Malaysia have a green investment tax

Malaysia have a green investment tax loans if I'm not mistaken so it could be

loans if I'm not mistaken so it could be used as well to be as collateral and

used as well to be as collateral and actually we already like having in-depth

actually we already like having in-depth interview with the commercial banks like

interview with the commercial banks like Amandiri they said they're really having

Amandiri they said they're really having a good appetite and they are having fun

a good appetite and they are having fun to be green renewable project but the

to be green renewable project but the risks because of that uh what I says the

risks because of that uh what I says the purchasing power agreement is not is

purchasing power agreement is not is never met with the like PLN like the

never met with the like PLN like the government it making it's more risk for

government it making it's more risk for them to distriute distribute the fund to

them to distriute distribute the fund to that one so uh yet yes it's not yet but

that one so uh yet yes it's not yet but we already considered that and once it's

we already considered that and once it's become regionally accepted and each uh

become regionally accepted and each uh country has in its own regulated tax

country has in its own regulated tax credit I think it will be a great uh

credit I think it will be a great uh support for the financial market for the

support for the financial market for the renewable energy project. That's all.

renewable energy project. That's all. >> Thank you. Um yeah, please.

>> Um thank you Bira for a really great presentation on a tax credit. My

presentation on a tax credit. My question is that in your conclusion you

question is that in your conclusion you mentioned that uh by by imposing tax

mentioned that uh by by imposing tax credit it can lower the solar BPP up to

credit it can lower the solar BPP up to 25% and geothermal BPP up to 10 to 15%.

25% and geothermal BPP up to 10 to 15%. So do you infer that uh tax credit will

So do you infer that uh tax credit will be more beneficial for solar PV projects

be more beneficial for solar PV projects compared to geothermal or uh what do you

compared to geothermal or uh what do you think about it? Yes. Uh actually the tax

think about it? Yes. Uh actually the tax credit in here

credit in here uh I am uh imposing more on

uh I am uh imposing more on the production tax credit and investment

the production tax credit and investment tax credit like in the US. Uh this is

tax credit like in the US. Uh this is only for the renewable because uh when

only for the renewable because uh when you are invest in renewable energy the

you are invest in renewable energy the more you produce uh clean energy the

more you produce uh clean energy the more you get the tax credit at the

more you get the tax credit at the future and for the investment tax

future and for the investment tax credit. If you are invest more like in

credit. If you are invest more like in the solar grid the more you invest right

the solar grid the more you invest right now in the future the more you get the

now in the future the more you get the tax credit. That's why uh like coal is

tax credit. That's why uh like coal is not really impacted while for the hydro

not really impacted while for the hydro solar is also not impacted because the

solar is also not impacted because the infrastructure infrastructure already

infrastructure infrastructure already there. Okay.

there. Okay. If not then I would like to invite a

If not then I would like to invite a round of applause to Ibu Miss for the

round of applause to Ibu Miss for the presentation. And our last presenter is

presentation. And our last presenter is Miss Aisha Rusana Dei who will present

Miss Aisha Rusana Dei who will present the hydrogen demand forecasting and

the hydrogen demand forecasting and techno analysis visibility

using a diffusion based uh model. So yeah the screen is yours.

Yeah, the slides ready. >> Okay. Hello everyone. Uh, thank you for

>> Okay. Hello everyone. Uh, thank you for joining. My name is Aisha Rosha Nadi.

joining. My name is Aisha Rosha Nadi. I'm from UN Project University,

I'm from UN Project University, Indonesia. Um today I will present part

Indonesia. Um today I will present part of our project project named hydrogen

of our project project named hydrogen demand forecasting and teno analysis

demand forecasting and teno analysis visibility of early infrastructure

visibility of early infrastructure investment in Jakarta using a division

investment in Jakarta using a division conjoin base model. First

first I ask you to save from the advanced thinking of energy transition

advanced thinking of energy transition to be more practical. In this project we

to be more practical. In this project we tackle a practical yet under explore

tackle a practical yet under explore question. Um

question. Um in hydrogen vehicles no adoption yet but

in hydrogen vehicles no adoption yet but when will they come? Um instead of

when will they come? Um instead of debating the literal origin of the

debating the literal origin of the chicken NDH with the egg the we start

chicken NDH with the egg the we start with the question on what level of

with the question on what level of refueling infrastructure and public

refueling infrastructure and public policy support is required to enable

policy support is required to enable that transition. Uh the motivation is

that transition. Uh the motivation is straightforward. While battery electric

straightforward. While battery electric vehicle have received much attention

vehicle have received much attention heavy duty and certain passenger segment

heavy duty and certain passenger segment may benefit from hydrogen fuel cell

may benefit from hydrogen fuel cell technology. But adoption hints on both

technology. But adoption hints on both consumer preferences and infrastructure

consumer preferences and infrastructure availability. Uh like Prof uh Zuian

availability. Uh like Prof uh Zuian mentioned before, we cannot take aside

mentioned before, we cannot take aside the approachment value of behavioral and

the approachment value of behavioral and or social. So our approach bridge those

or social. So our approach bridge those two domains we two do two domains. We

two domains we two do two domains. We support measurable preference parameter

support measurable preference parameter from conjoin utility studies and

from conjoin utility studies and translate them into dynamic modifier for

translate them into dynamic modifier for a best diffusion model.

a best diffusion model. Uh practically the model accept local

Uh practically the model accept local input, historical EV adoption,

input, historical EV adoption, historical electricity consumption for

historical electricity consumption for EV and the demand concentration area of

EV and the demand concentration area of private vehicle estimates of private car

private vehicle estimates of private car stock discount rate and for the utility

stock discount rate and for the utility value of um the utility value. We have a

value of um the utility value. We have a senior scenario based measure of public

senior scenario based measure of public awareness print and hydrogen refilling

awareness print and hydrogen refilling station coverage and then produce three

station coverage and then produce three policy relevant output. There is

policy relevant output. There is projected adoption curve the required

projected adoption curve the required number of hydrogen refilling station

number of hydrogen refilling station over time and a discounted cash flow

over time and a discounted cash flow analysis for infrastructure investment.

analysis for infrastructure investment. This fill three gaps in the legislator.

This fill three gaps in the legislator. Integrating conjoin derived behavioral

Integrating conjoin derived behavioral values into a division framework. Uh

values into a division framework. Uh contextualizing projection for a major

contextualizing projection for a major Southeast Asian mega city and linking

Southeast Asian mega city and linking adoption dynamics directly to

adoption dynamics directly to infrastructure investment appraisal. Uh

infrastructure investment appraisal. Uh on the

on the next slides I will show the conceptual

next slides I will show the conceptual flows of our models, the key assumption

flows of our models, the key assumption we use and the principal research

we use and the principal research question we aim to answer. If at any

question we aim to answer. If at any time you want a deeper dive. Okay. Uh

time you want a deeper dive. Okay. Uh traditionally technology adoption can be

traditionally technology adoption can be described using the best division

described using the best division model where innovation and imitation

model where innovation and imitation drive the adoption curve. Uh however

drive the adoption curve. Uh however this classical model assumes that the

this classical model assumes that the market psychology stays constant. In

market psychology stays constant. In reality the behavioral of human and

reality the behavioral of human and perception adoption can change in over

perception adoption can change in over time. uh in and it can depends on fuel

time. uh in and it can depends on fuel price, station coverage, brand trust and

price, station coverage, brand trust and policy incentive. Therefore, we

policy incentive. Therefore, we integrated this behavioral preferences

integrated this behavioral preferences from conjoin analysis into best

from conjoin analysis into best diffusion model allowing the adoption

diffusion model allowing the adoption parameter to evolve dynamically over

parameter to evolve dynamically over time. So here is the extra detector of

time. So here is the extra detector of our dynamic behavioral best division

our dynamic behavioral best division model behavioral factor from the conjoin

model behavioral factor from the conjoin study. They are attention attention for

study. They are attention attention for station coverage and hydrogen

station coverage and hydrogen price awareness from brandas and social

price awareness from brandas and social activity for incentive policy. The first

activity for incentive policy. The first translated into the single

translated into the single attractiveness index. This index

attractiveness index. This index modifies the diffusion parameter P and Q

modifies the diffusion parameter P and Q producing an adaptive adoption curve.

So the hydrogen refilling station coverage, hydrogen price incentive

coverage, hydrogen price incentive policy will uh influence the conjoin

policy will uh influence the conjoin from cities uh produce the utility value

from cities uh produce the utility value and

and in

in the adoption rate is no longer static

the adoption rate is no longer static and it falls with public awareness and

and it falls with public awareness and incentive.

So here is the result. uh we can see the difference between the

uh we can see the difference between the classical pass model and our behavioral

classical pass model and our behavioral conjoin division curve. The blue line

conjoin division curve. The blue line represent

represent uh static adoption forecast assuming the

uh static adoption forecast assuming the market's innovation and imitation risk

market's innovation and imitation risk stays constant.

stays constant. The orange curve on the other hand

The orange curve on the other hand include dynamic behavioral

include dynamic behavioral effect

effect affected uh effect. The public trust,

affected uh effect. The public trust, awareness and incentive strength all

awareness and incentive strength all influence the attractiveness of hydrogen

influence the attractiveness of hydrogen technology change over time.

Okay. What really changed here is not the structure

really changed here is not the structure of the bus model but its parameter.

of the bus model but its parameter. Instead of fixed innovation and

Instead of fixed innovation and imitation rates, we allow P and Q evolve

imitation rates, we allow P and Q evolve with the attractiveness index

with the attractiveness index on delta T.

on delta T. This make the bond adaptive. It reflects

This make the bond adaptive. It reflects behavioral shift in real time giving a

behavioral shift in real time giving a more realistic projection for Jakatra

more realistic projection for Jakatra hydrogen

hydrogen transition.

Okay. Uh so here we summarize the main difference between the static best model

difference between the static best model and our behavioral conjoin version. The

and our behavioral conjoin version. The behavioral pro model projects about

behavioral pro model projects about um

37,000 hydrogen vehicle by 2062. This faster

hydrogen vehicle by 2062. This faster adoption also increased the

adoption also increased the infrastructure requirement to around 88

infrastructure requirement to around 88 hydrogen leveling station around

hydrogen leveling station around Jakarta. Economically these scenarios

Jakarta. Economically these scenarios yields a 39% higher NPV reflecting

yields a 39% higher NPV reflecting stronger financial viability once

stronger financial viability once behavioral effect are incorporate.

Um overall the behavioral conjoin model does not just fit better. It explain

does not just fit better. It explain more. It captures how people's

more. It captures how people's perception, trust and visibility of

perception, trust and visibility of hydrogen technology evolve over time. By

hydrogen technology evolve over time. By aligning infrastructure planning and

aligning infrastructure planning and subsidy design with this behavioral

subsidy design with this behavioral dynamics, we can achieve both faster

dynamics, we can achieve both faster adoption and sustainable economic

adoption and sustainable economic outcomes.

outcomes. Um

let's now look at how simple investment subsidy change the picture. Here the

subsidy change the picture. Here the government covers 30% of hydrogen

government covers 30% of hydrogen refilling station capital cost while the

refilling station capital cost while the hydrogen retail price price remains the

hydrogen retail price price remains the same at $5.5

same at $5.5 per kilogram. Now the result is clear.

per kilogram. Now the result is clear. Total NPV increase from the uh 450 to

Total NPV increase from the uh 450 to 600

600 billion rupia at 39% improvement. That means the subsidy enhance capital

That means the subsidy enhance capital efficiency without hurting operational

efficiency without hurting operational margin. This chart show how quickly the

margin. This chart show how quickly the subsidize scenario cover its investment.

subsidize scenario cover its investment. The payback period shorten from about uh

The payback period shorten from about uh 14 years to only 10. By targeting the

14 years to only 10. By targeting the capital side, the subsidy not only

capital side, the subsidy not only improve financial visibility but also

improve financial visibility but also build market confidence, [clears throat]

build market confidence, [clears throat] a crucial factor for early hydrogen

a crucial factor for early hydrogen infrastructure development in Jakarta.

infrastructure development in Jakarta. Um so this study develop a behavioral

Um so this study develop a behavioral calibrated best diffusion model that

calibrated best diffusion model that integrates conjoin derived utility to

integrates conjoin derived utility to dynamically adjust innovation and

dynamically adjust innovation and imitation parameter.

imitation parameter. Um

Um okay uh from the key result the behavior

okay uh from the key result the behavior calibrated best model successfully

calibrated best model successfully projected FGEV adoption in Jakarta

projected FGEV adoption in Jakarta throughs uh 2062 targeting 12 %

throughs uh 2062 targeting 12 % presentation penetration and

presentation penetration and the

the maybe everyone wants to give me uh input

maybe everyone wants to give me uh input to my future works. I love to hear your

to my future works. I love to hear your insight for your insight. Okay. Uh so

insight for your insight. Okay. Uh so here the conclusion integrating

here the conclusion integrating behavioral conjoin with best fusion

behavioral conjoin with best fusion offer a realistic pathway to bridge

offer a realistic pathway to bridge consumer perception in and

consumer perception in and infrastructure investment. Thank you.

infrastructure investment. Thank you. [applause]

[applause] >> Um yeah thank you very much uh Miss

>> Um yeah thank you very much uh Miss Aisha. So again inviting uh audience for

Aisha. So again inviting uh audience for questions.

Uh thank you for the presentation. I'm just curious with the graph of the

just curious with the graph of the adaptation. So what's happened after 20

adaptation. So what's happened after 20 uh 35 that the adaptation is already

uh 35 that the adaptation is already stable? This means there's no new uh

stable? This means there's no new uh fusel or others. Thank you.

fusel or others. Thank you. >> Okay. Because of the past division it uh

>> Okay. Because of the past division it uh influenced by the M value. The M value

influenced by the M value. The M value is our projection uh final projection of

is our projection uh final projection of the hydrogen infrastructure. Um the

the hydrogen infrastructure. Um the final projection of Indonesian

final projection of Indonesian government is um in 2062 they receive

government is um in 2062 they receive about 428,000

about 428,000 uh vehicle around the Indonesia and it

uh vehicle around the Indonesia and it means that it is uh 12% only in Jakarta

means that it is uh 12% only in Jakarta because the presentation of the vehicle

because the presentation of the vehicle in Jakarta um uh penetration is about

in Jakarta um uh penetration is about and the about 12% only. So the M that

and the about 12% only. So the M that have to be in 2062 they have the

have to be in 2062 they have the um

um uh by the time they are

in 20 32. Yeah. If I might give a suggestion

32. Yeah. If I might give a suggestion for the study, you can might be like uh

for the study, you can might be like uh ignore the assumption that 12% is

ignore the assumption that 12% is Jakarta. So might be in you can found

Jakarta. So might be in you can found that in 2016 the adaptation is uh maybe

that in 2016 the adaptation is uh maybe 50% of Indonesian.

50% of Indonesian. >> Yes, it can be modeled like that. But in

>> Yes, it can be modeled like that. But in this model of best we have the

this model of best we have the um

higher position achieve the projection. We have the

achieve the projection. We have the steady value like that. It also we we

steady value like that. It also we we can model it uh from uh we can model it

can model it uh from uh we can model it to any years but if we have achieved the

to any years but if we have achieved the projection we have the stable value like

projection we have the stable value like that.

that. >> Okay. Thank you. Uh maybe also another

>> Okay. Thank you. Uh maybe also another suggestion is just to keep the results

suggestion is just to keep the results until 2035.

until 2035. >> Yes,

>> Yes, >> that might be. So you don't show

>> that might be. So you don't show >> I want to show the

Okay. Okay. Well noted. Thank you. Thank you very much. So again due to the time

you very much. So again due to the time limitations I would like to close the

limitations I would like to close the sessions today. Okay, thank you very

sessions today. Okay, thank you very much uh for every speakers uh and

much uh for every speakers uh and especially our last speaker bu Miss

especially our last speaker bu Miss Nisa. Thank you very much. And I think

Nisa. Thank you very much. And I think we are going to the poster sessions and

we are going to the poster sessions and also uh coffee break which is on the

also uh coffee break which is on the hall right there and then I think we'll

hall right there and then I think we'll be back in uh 10 minutes. Yeah. Uh and

be back in uh 10 minutes. Yeah. Uh and then there will be new chairs coming. So

then there will be new chairs coming. So please enjoy the session. Thank you.

Okay. Um very good morning for all of us. Um welcome to the second session for

us. Um welcome to the second session for this room in 309 306. uh this room we

this room in 309 306. uh this room we will have subtopic on low carbon and

will have subtopic on low carbon and emerging technologies. I am Sylvia from

emerging technologies. I am Sylvia from Asan Center for Energy. Uh I will be

Asan Center for Energy. Uh I will be host as chair in this room for this

host as chair in this room for this session.

session. So we will have uh six presenter uh for

So we will have uh six presenter uh for this room. So each presenter have uh 10

this room. So each presenter have uh 10 minutes from the presentation and five

minutes from the presentation and five minutes for the Q&A. So I will call for

minutes for the Q&A. So I will call for the first uh presenter

the first uh presenter Mr. Arishadi. Yeah, Mr. Reido Arishadi

Mr. Arishadi. Yeah, Mr. Reido Arishadi will present the emerging green hydrogen

will present the emerging green hydrogen pathways in Indonesia power sectors, a

pathways in Indonesia power sectors, a comparative analysis of hydrogen

comparative analysis of hydrogen confiring, ammonia co-firing and fuel

confiring, ammonia co-firing and fuel cell deployment. Okay, for Mr. RCD, the

cell deployment. Okay, for Mr. RCD, the time is yours.

Should I start with help from operator? Okay.

Okay. >> Yeah, maybe you can set manually. So,

>> Yeah, maybe you can set manually. So, please say next for the we're waiting

please say next for the we're waiting for the clickers.

for the clickers. >> Uh thank you chair person. Uh good

>> Uh thank you chair person. Uh good morning ladies and gentlemen. Uh

morning ladies and gentlemen. Uh distinguished speakers. My name is Reo

distinguished speakers. My name is Reo Arishadi. I'm from Ministry of Energy

Arishadi. I'm from Ministry of Energy and Minaris of Indonesia. Today I'm

and Minaris of Indonesia. Today I'm pleased to present my research to you

pleased to present my research to you that entitled evaloting green hydrogen

that entitled evaloting green hydrogen pathway in Indonesia's power sectors a

pathway in Indonesia's power sectors a comparative analysis of hydrogen

comparative analysis of hydrogen copiring amoya coffiring and fuel cell

copiring amoya coffiring and fuel cell development. This study is uh supported

development. This study is uh supported by the asens center uh for energy

by the asens center uh for energy through the asset program. Next please.

through the asset program. Next please. So as uh background and motivation uh

So as uh background and motivation uh Indonesia is developing a road map and

Indonesia is developing a road map and strategy uh for net zero emission by60

strategy uh for net zero emission by60 uh for our uh power sectors. Uh in this

uh for our uh power sectors. Uh in this uh road map uh we will rely heavily on

uh road map uh we will rely heavily on renewable energy and energy solar

renewable energy and energy solar system. Among various uh technology

system. Among various uh technology hydrogen is expected to play a key role

hydrogen is expected to play a key role uh for the carbonizations and uh part of

uh for the carbonizations and uh part of the energy transitions toward global

the energy transitions toward global effort. Uh in this year uh the ministry

effort. Uh in this year uh the ministry of energy aminois also released uh the

of energy aminois also released uh the road map of hydrogen and ammonia uh

road map of hydrogen and ammonia uh implementation that's uh that mentioned

implementation that's uh that mentioned that the power sector is one of the

that the power sector is one of the sector will be uh utilize the uh

sector will be uh utilize the uh hydrogen in Indonesia.

hydrogen in Indonesia. uh in our national electricity plan 2025

uh in our national electricity plan 2025 2016 uh already outlined a clear uh fuel

2016 uh already outlined a clear uh fuel uh switching strategy uh first

uh switching strategy uh first converting the coal plant to green

converting the coal plant to green ammonia or co-firing with bio energy and

ammonia or co-firing with bio energy and CCS uh then gas plant to green hydrogen

CCS uh then gas plant to green hydrogen and gas with CCS and the the third one D

and gas with CCS and the the third one D cell plan to renewable based hydrogen

cell plan to renewable based hydrogen fuel cell right now there are numerous

fuel cell right now there are numerous study have analyzed the technical

study have analyzed the technical environmental and economic uh dimension

environmental and economic uh dimension of uh hydrogen pway toward uh rene

of uh hydrogen pway toward uh rene toward uh decarbonizations.

toward uh decarbonizations. Uh at the same times uh several Asan

Uh at the same times uh several Asan countries such as Indonesia, Malaysia,

countries such as Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Vietnam already released

Singapore and Vietnam already released uh the strategy national strategy of

uh the strategy national strategy of hydrogen uh that reflected the uh

hydrogen uh that reflected the uh growing regional momentum toward local

growing regional momentum toward local carbon uh development. Uh next set. So

carbon uh development. Uh next set. So this research focus on a central

this research focus on a central question. Which hydrogen pathway provide

question. Which hydrogen pathway provide the best balance for Indonesian power

the best balance for Indonesian power sector? We examine the three option.

sector? We examine the three option. First hydrogen co-airing for a gas

First hydrogen co-airing for a gas engine power plant. Second the ammonian

engine power plant. Second the ammonian co ammonia co-airing for uh coal fire

co ammonia co-airing for uh coal fire power plant and the third one the fuel

power plant and the third one the fuel fuel cell deployment

fuel cell deployment to evaloting the using to evaloting the

to evaloting the using to evaloting the three pathway. uh are using the

three pathway. uh are using the multiriteria

multiriteria analysis approach based on the topsis

analysis approach based on the topsis method and consider the context of

method and consider the context of Indonesian current electricity system

Indonesian current electricity system condition and the existing studies on

condition and the existing studies on hydrogen utilization.

hydrogen utilization. Uh next please

Uh next please hydrogen covering in gastrobin has been

hydrogen covering in gastrobin has been tested by many major manufacturers such

tested by many major manufacturers such as cement Mississippi and GE. A recent

as cement Mississippi and GE. A recent study showed the blending up to 30% of

study showed the blending up to 30% of hydrogen with uh natural gas uh can

hydrogen with uh natural gas uh can maintain a stable operation uh within

maintain a stable operation uh within minimal modification to the existing

minimal modification to the existing combustion system. The efficiency

combustion system. The efficiency improve uh are the the efficiency

improve uh are the the efficiency improvement are modest typically around

improvement are modest typically around one to to 2% while the C2 machine can

one to to 2% while the C2 machine can decrease by about 10 to 15 uh gram per

decrease by about 10 to 15 uh gram per kilowatt hour.

kilowatt hour. Although promising hydrogen

Although promising hydrogen [clears throat] co-aring remain at the

[clears throat] co-aring remain at the research and pilot phase uh with

research and pilot phase uh with economic fac physibility still limited

economic fac physibility still limited by hydrogen production and storage cost.

by hydrogen production and storage cost. Next slide please.

Next slide please. Uh ammonica fairing is considered a

Uh ammonica fairing is considered a transitional strategy to reduce CO2

transitional strategy to reduce CO2 emission for the coal fire power plant

emission for the coal fire power plant without major infrastructure changes.

without major infrastructure changes. Studies report that uh a 10 to 13

Studies report that uh a 10 to 13 ammonia 10 to 13% ammonia blend can

ammonia 10 to 13% ammonia blend can lower the CO2 emission by 30 to 40%.

lower the CO2 emission by 30 to 40%. Although it might slightly reduce the

Although it might slightly reduce the boiler efficiency. However, ammonia

boiler efficiency. However, ammonia offer a practical advantage compared to

offer a practical advantage compared to the hydrogen uh for the storage than

the hydrogen uh for the storage than handling. This is make uh the particular

handling. This is make uh the particular appealing for Indonesia. What given the

appealing for Indonesia. What given the our extensive uh coal fire power plant

our extensive uh coal fire power plant fuel cell is the most promising uh power

fuel cell is the most promising uh power generation technology because it can be

generation technology because it can be operated as the standalone or connected

operated as the standalone or connected with the main grid. Fuel cell represent

with the main grid. Fuel cell represent a long-term clean power solution with

a long-term clean power solution with zero CO2 and pollutant emission direct

zero CO2 and pollutant emission direct CO2 and emission pollutant producing

CO2 and emission pollutant producing only water vapor as a byproduct. Various

only water vapor as a byproduct. Various technologies such as MCFC, SOFC and MC

technologies such as MCFC, SOFC and MC uh PMFC offer a efficiency of system

uh PMFC offer a efficiency of system between 40% until 75% depending on the

between 40% until 75% depending on the configuration.

configuration. However, fuel cell face uh high capital

However, fuel cell face uh high capital cost uh typically to to 20 and 35 uh,000

cost uh typically to to 20 and 35 uh,000 USD kilowatt per kilowatt uh and short

USD kilowatt per kilowatt uh and short shorter lifetime compared to the

shorter lifetime compared to the compared to the tractional power plant

compared to the tractional power plant in Indonesia. Fuel cell application are

in Indonesia. Fuel cell application are likely more suitable for distributed

likely more suitable for distributed generation and offgrid renewable

generation and offgrid renewable integration.

integration. Uh next slide please. To evaluate and

Uh next slide please. To evaluate and rank the three pathway uh we use the

rank the three pathway uh we use the topsis method a technique for order and

topsis method a technique for order and preference by similarity of ideal

preference by similarity of ideal solution. This multiculteria

solution. This multiculteria decision-making model identity

decision-making model identity identifies the alternative that is close

identifies the alternative that is close to the ideal solution and farthest from

to the ideal solution and farthest from the worst solution based on the

the worst solution based on the normalized performance scores. Topsis is

normalized performance scores. Topsis is one of the most widely applied method in

one of the most widely applied method in the of various field such as

the of various field such as manufacturing, finance, technology uh

manufacturing, finance, technology uh selection and energy uh strategy.

selection and energy uh strategy. In this study, the conventional topsis

In this study, the conventional topsis method was applied to identify the most

method was applied to identify the most most visible dragon pathway.

most visible dragon pathway. Next slide. In this study, I edit

Next slide. In this study, I edit identified the I criteria group into

identified the I criteria group into four main categories uh technical,

four main categories uh technical, economic, environmental and replication

economic, environmental and replication potential. As shown is the table. Each

potential. As shown is the table. Each pathway has uh evolved using the

pathway has uh evolved using the quantitative data from various publisher

quantitative data from various publisher study and inducian power gra technology

study and inducian power gra technology catalog which developed by the ministry

catalog which developed by the ministry and the Danish energy agency. For

and the Danish energy agency. For instance, for instance, the energy

instance, for instance, the energy efficiency uh criteria was measured by

efficiency uh criteria was measured by the electricity granted per kilogram of

the electricity granted per kilogram of hydrogen used or as a percentage of

hydrogen used or as a percentage of hydrogen lower heating value. Uh for

hydrogen lower heating value. Uh for coiring pathways, hydrogen consumption

coiring pathways, hydrogen consumption and power ignation were calculated under

and power ignation were calculated under stochometry consition

stochometry consition for consist for consistency and

for consist for consistency and compatability.

compatability. Uh next slides this one uh is also the

Uh next slides this one uh is also the the matrix. Uh next slide this is the

the matrix. Uh next slide this is the the this slide represent the eval metric

the this slide represent the eval metric that used in the topsis analysis. There

that used in the topsis analysis. There are uh eight uh criteria. uh six are

are uh eight uh criteria. uh six are classified as benefit uh where higher

classified as benefit uh where higher value represent the better performance

value represent the better performance and the two are cost criteria where the

and the two are cost criteria where the lower lowest value as uh pre each

lower lowest value as uh pre each alternative was quantitatively assessed

alternative was quantitatively assessed uh to determine its relative proximity

uh to determine its relative proximity uh both uh ideal and non ideal solution.

uh both uh ideal and non ideal solution. Next slide.

Next slide. This slide shows the step-by-step

This slide shows the step-by-step process of the topsis calculation. The

process of the topsis calculation. The process include the normalization,

process include the normalization, weighted normalization,

weighted normalization, identifying positive and negative ideal

identifying positive and negative ideal solution, calculating equilidian

solution, calculating equilidian distance and determining uh preference

distance and determining uh preference value

and determining the preference value by ranking.

ranking. Uh

Uh it's there for the all criteria they

it's there for the all criteria they have the same weight even though they

have the same weight even though they are came from the main category. So the

are came from the main category. So the all eight have uh one as the weight. So,

so after the calculation we found that the higher value the higher value

the higher value the higher value indicate uh to the the ideal is uh the

indicate uh to the the ideal is uh the ammonia co-iring

ammonia co-iring with the coal fire power plant uh S A3

with the coal fire power plant uh S A3 solution and the second one is the fuel

solution and the second one is the fuel cell and the third one is hydran

cell and the third one is hydran coaring.

coaring. uh the score is 0.51

uh the score is 0.51 then 0.9 then 045

from the top an analysis we found that the ammonia co-iring in

we found that the ammonia co-iring in cold fire pen is the uh best performance

cold fire pen is the uh best performance even though the score are relatively

even though the score are relatively close and remain far from one indicating

close and remain far from one indicating that the each pathway still a

that the each pathway still a significant room for improve Improvement

significant room for improve Improvement ammonia covering currently provide the

ammonia covering currently provide the most balanced option interro efficiency

most balanced option interro efficiency and cost environmental and replication

and cost environmental and replication potency in Indonesia. For future work

potency in Indonesia. For future work study should indicate uh should include

study should indicate uh should include the factors such as uh supply chain

the factors such as uh supply chain readiness, safety, storage and

readiness, safety, storage and transportation infrastructure.

transportation infrastructure. Uh it is also important to conduct uh

Uh it is also important to conduct uh sensitivity analysis on the waiting uh

sensitivity analysis on the waiting uh seams. I hope this finding contribute

seams. I hope this finding contribute the ongoing policy discussion and

the ongoing policy discussion and regional uh collaboration on low carbon

regional uh collaboration on low carbon system. Thank you very much for your

system. Thank you very much for your attention.

attention. >> Thank you. Give round of applause for

>> Thank you. Give round of applause for Mr. Arishadi.

Mr. Arishadi. Okay. Um I will open for the Q&A. Uh is

Okay. Um I will open for the Q&A. Uh is there any question for the participant

there any question for the participant here?

Okay. Um if no maybe if you have any other question you can have uh after

other question you can have uh after this session for Mr. Arishadi. Okay.

this session for Mr. Arishadi. Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. >> Thank you.

>> Thank you. >> Um yeah.

>> Um yeah. Uh let's have the second presenter. Uh

Uh let's have the second presenter. Uh we have um Mr. Chris Jericho Gaas that

we have um Mr. Chris Jericho Gaas that will present nuclear in Southeast Asia

will present nuclear in Southeast Asia status and prospect of nuclear energy

status and prospect of nuclear energy development and radioactive waste

development and radioactive waste management in the Philippines, Indonesia

management in the Philippines, Indonesia and Thailand. You have 10 minutes for

and Thailand. You have 10 minutes for the presentation, sir.

>> Uh hi, good afternoon everyone. Uh my name is Chris Jericho Cruz. I'm from the

name is Chris Jericho Cruz. I'm from the Philippines and I'm a master student at

Philippines and I'm a master student at UC Berkeley uh in nuclear engineering.

UC Berkeley uh in nuclear engineering. Uh for the next 10 minutes, I will be

Uh for the next 10 minutes, I will be covering a lot of ground to tell you

covering a lot of ground to tell you about nuclear in Southeast Asia. Uh

about nuclear in Southeast Asia. Uh specifically the current status and

specifically the current status and future prospects of nuclear energy

future prospects of nuclear energy development and radioactive waste

development and radioactive waste management in the countries of the

management in the countries of the Philippines, Indonesia, and Thailand.

Philippines, Indonesia, and Thailand. So for a little bit of background

So for a little bit of background although I don't need to tell you this

although I don't need to tell you this um the main uh motivations behind the

um the main uh motivations behind the interest in nuclear here in Southeast

interest in nuclear here in Southeast Asia is three-fold. Number one is

Asia is three-fold. Number one is obviously the rising demand for energy

obviously the rising demand for energy here in the region driven primarily by

here in the region driven primarily by economic growth and population growth.

economic growth and population growth. Secondly, of course, is climate change,

Secondly, of course, is climate change, which is the issue of our time,

which is the issue of our time, especially in our region, where we have,

especially in our region, where we have, as a lot of speakers today have talked

as a lot of speakers today have talked about, uh the goal to reach net zero at

about, uh the goal to reach net zero at some point over the next few decades.

some point over the next few decades. And finally, it's the cost of

And finally, it's the cost of electricity uh here in our countries

electricity uh here in our countries driven primarily by the reliance on

driven primarily by the reliance on fossil fuels, especially imported fuels.

fossil fuels, especially imported fuels. So these reasons uh motivate a lot of

So these reasons uh motivate a lot of countries in Southeast Asia to look for

countries in Southeast Asia to look for a clean, reliable and cheap source of

a clean, reliable and cheap source of electricity. Hence they're looking at

electricity. Hence they're looking at nuclear.

nuclear. So the three countries we're covering

So the three countries we're covering today as I said are the Philippines,

today as I said are the Philippines, Indonesia and Thailand. This is an

Indonesia and Thailand. This is an initial study. Uh hopefully we'll be

initial study. Uh hopefully we'll be able to cover uh the rest of the 10

able to cover uh the rest of the 10 member states of ASEAN in uh future

member states of ASEAN in uh future studies as well.

studies as well. So let's first talk about nuclear energy

So let's first talk about nuclear energy development. Uh these three countries

development. Uh these three countries that I've talked about uh kind of got

that I've talked about uh kind of got interested in nuclear right around the

interested in nuclear right around the same time uh in the 50s and 60s. They

same time uh in the 50s and 60s. They established uh nuclear energy agencies

established uh nuclear energy agencies in their uh in their governments to um

in their uh in their governments to um explore the option of nuclear right

explore the option of nuclear right around the 70s, 80s and 90s. uh there

around the 70s, 80s and 90s. uh there were uh bigger steps forward uh for

were uh bigger steps forward uh for proposals and in the case of the

proposals and in the case of the Philippines the actual building of a

Philippines the actual building of a nuclear power plant although it's never

nuclear power plant although it's never been uh turned on uh in Batan.

been uh turned on uh in Batan. Uh now

Uh now I've talked about the motivations

I've talked about the motivations earlier but those aren't necessarily the

earlier but those aren't necessarily the same motivations back in the 50s60s and

same motivations back in the 50s60s and 70s. Uh back then these countries were

70s. Uh back then these countries were really looking at nuclear primarily to

really looking at nuclear primarily to wean themselves off of the reliance on

wean themselves off of the reliance on oil because of the oil crisis at the

oil because of the oil crisis at the time. So energy independence uh reducing

time. So energy independence uh reducing reliance on imported fuels was a lot of

reliance on imported fuels was a lot of what was being talked about when it

what was being talked about when it comes to pursuing nuclear as well as in

comes to pursuing nuclear as well as in the case of Indonesia for example

the case of Indonesia for example modernization as they see nuclear as an

modernization as they see nuclear as an energy source for the future. But as all

energy source for the future. But as all of us may know uh none of these three

of us may know uh none of these three countries, in fact none of the countries

countries, in fact none of the countries in ASEAN have succeeded in um

in ASEAN have succeeded in um implementing a nuclear energy program to

implementing a nuclear energy program to this day. And a lot of factors have

this day. And a lot of factors have affected this negative outcome. Uh, one

affected this negative outcome. Uh, one of those is for instance in the

of those is for instance in the Philippines and Indonesia, the

Philippines and Indonesia, the democratic transition back in the 80s

democratic transition back in the 80s and 90s from more authoritarian to more

and 90s from more authoritarian to more democratic regimes uh empowered civil

democratic regimes uh empowered civil society groups and the public to be more

society groups and the public to be more vocal and open about their opposition to

vocal and open about their opposition to nuclear energy especially fueled by uh

nuclear energy especially fueled by uh the incidents uh in Chernobyl back in

the incidents uh in Chernobyl back in 1986 and more recently in Fukushima in

1986 and more recently in Fukushima in 2011. Another big reason uh why these

2011. Another big reason uh why these countries decided to shove their nuclear

countries decided to shove their nuclear energy plants is the discovery of

energy plants is the discovery of natural gas deposits especially in

natural gas deposits especially in Indonesia and Thailand for example which

Indonesia and Thailand for example which gave these countries uh a cheaper option

gave these countries uh a cheaper option to pursue uh that is also an alternative

to pursue uh that is also an alternative to oil and of course financial

to oil and of course financial limitations is a very big factor when it

limitations is a very big factor when it comes to nuclear because it is a capital

comes to nuclear because it is a capital inensive uh energy source

inensive uh energy source but uh nuclear is back in fashion. here

but uh nuclear is back in fashion. here in Southeast Asia. There's going to be a

in Southeast Asia. There's going to be a few sessions uh over the next few days

few sessions uh over the next few days talking about nuclear um and all all

talking about nuclear um and all all three of these countries have set

three of these countries have set nuclear energy targets in their national

nuclear energy targets in their national energy plans. In the Philippines, for

energy plans. In the Philippines, for example, they're targeting 1,200 megawws

example, they're targeting 1,200 megawws by 2032 of nuclear, doubling that by

by 2032 of nuclear, doubling that by 2035 and quadrupling it by 2050. Uh,

2035 and quadrupling it by 2050. Uh, Indonesia is targeting 500 megawatts of

Indonesia is targeting 500 megawatts of nuclear by 2034 and then having more

nuclear by 2034 and then having more ambitious targets at the gigawatt scale

ambitious targets at the gigawatt scale uh in 2040 and60. Thailand has more

uh in 2040 and60. Thailand has more modest uh targets 600 megawatts by 2037.

modest uh targets 600 megawatts by 2037. The question is um are these countries

The question is um are these countries serious about these targets or are they

serious about these targets or are they just putting numbers on paper? Well, one

just putting numbers on paper? Well, one thing we can look at is the frameworks

thing we can look at is the frameworks that already exist in terms of the

that already exist in terms of the legislation and the regulation. Uh, all

legislation and the regulation. Uh, all of these three countries uh now have

of these three countries uh now have separate promotional and regulatory

separate promotional and regulatory agencies when it comes to nuclear. For

agencies when it comes to nuclear. For instance, in Indonesia, they have Brin

instance, in Indonesia, they have Brin as their um promotion and research and

as their um promotion and research and nuclear agency and Betatan as the

nuclear agency and Betatan as the regulatory agency. Thailand has the TNT

regulatory agency. Thailand has the TNT for research and promotion and the

for research and promotion and the office of atoms for peace as their

office of atoms for peace as their regulation. Uh up until last month, the

regulation. Uh up until last month, the Philippines only had the Philippine

Philippines only had the Philippine Nuclear Research Institute to um uh

Nuclear Research Institute to um uh perform both of these functions. But uh

perform both of these functions. But uh a new law has just been passed a few

a new law has just been passed a few weeks ago uh or has been signed into law

weeks ago uh or has been signed into law a few weeks ago establishing Phil atom

a few weeks ago establishing Phil atom as the independent regulatory body. So

as the independent regulatory body. So these are significant steps towards

these are significant steps towards implementing a nuclear energy program.

implementing a nuclear energy program. Other latest developments include in the

Other latest developments include in the Philippines a feasibility study being

Philippines a feasibility study being conducted with Korean partners uh for

conducted with Korean partners uh for the rehabilitation of the aforementioned

the rehabilitation of the aforementioned Batan nuclear power plant in Indonesia.

Batan nuclear power plant in Indonesia. They've uh uh issued the first ever

They've uh uh issued the first ever nuclear related uh license in Southeast

nuclear related uh license in Southeast Asia, a site evaluation license for a

Asia, a site evaluation license for a reactor uh by the company Thorcon. And

reactor uh by the company Thorcon. And Thailand is also conducting a

Thailand is also conducting a feasibility study right now with the

feasibility study right now with the Danish molten salt reactor company

Danish molten salt reactor company Saltf.

Saltf. Now let's talk a little bit about

Now let's talk a little bit about radioactive waste management. Um what

radioactive waste management. Um what are the current existing infrastructures

are the current existing infrastructures in these countries? Uh when it comes to

in these countries? Uh when it comes to waste management because are the

waste management because are the question is are we prepared once we

question is are we prepared once we start building all these nuclear

start building all these nuclear reactors to handle the waste that will

reactors to handle the waste that will come out of these reactors once we

come out of these reactors once we operate them. In the Philippines, there

operate them. In the Philippines, there is only one radioactive waste management

is only one radioactive waste management facility being operated by the PNRI.

facility being operated by the PNRI. This is just for low-level and

This is just for low-level and intermediate level waste. Um, there are

intermediate level waste. Um, there are no specific spent fuel regulations in

no specific spent fuel regulations in the Philippines because there is no

the Philippines because there is no spent fuel yet that has been generated

spent fuel yet that has been generated in the Philippines. Uh, but they are

in the Philippines. Uh, but they are currently uh doing site studies for

currently uh doing site studies for potential uh final disposal facilities.

potential uh final disposal facilities. In Indonesia, there is one radioactive

In Indonesia, there is one radioactive waste management installation uh near

waste management installation uh near Jakarta. Um it's operated by Brin. They

Jakarta. Um it's operated by Brin. They have interim storage for low and

have interim storage for low and intermediate level waste. They also have

intermediate level waste. They also have interim storage for the spent fuel that

interim storage for the spent fuel that is being generated in their three

is being generated in their three research reactors. Uh they treat spent

research reactors. Uh they treat spent fuel as high level waste. Uh and like

fuel as high level waste. Uh and like the Philippines, they're doing site

the Philippines, they're doing site studies for a final disposal facility.

studies for a final disposal facility. Thailand meanwhile has four radioactive

Thailand meanwhile has four radioactive waste management facilities uh spread

waste management facilities uh spread out across three sites uh in the

out across three sites uh in the country. These are interim storage for

country. These are interim storage for low and intermediate level waste. They

low and intermediate level waste. They have separate regulations for uh spent

have separate regulations for uh spent fuel. Uh mainly uh the the regulation is

fuel. Uh mainly uh the the regulation is that the spent fuel has to be rep

that the spent fuel has to be rep repatriated back to the country of

repatriated back to the country of origin. Uh so wherever the fuel came

origin. Uh so wherever the fuel came from, they have to send it back. They

from, they have to send it back. They can't dispose of it within the country.

can't dispose of it within the country. That's the existing regulation right

That's the existing regulation right now. And they have no new plans. Oh,

now. And they have no new plans. Oh, they have no plans for new facilities

they have no plans for new facilities when it comes to radioactive waste

when it comes to radioactive waste disposal. What are the future challenges

disposal. What are the future challenges for these three countries? Well, the

for these three countries? Well, the future challenges, like I said, you have

future challenges, like I said, you have to look at the kinds of nuclear plants

to look at the kinds of nuclear plants and reactors that they're considering

and reactors that they're considering and the kind of waste that that will

and the kind of waste that that will produce. Uh, and there's a wide variety

produce. Uh, and there's a wide variety of the kinds of reactors that they're

of the kinds of reactors that they're looking at. In the Philippines, the

looking at. In the Philippines, the Batan nuclear power plant is a

Batan nuclear power plant is a Westinghouse uh pressurized water

Westinghouse uh pressurized water reactor uh which uses your typical metal

reactor uh which uses your typical metal oxide uranium fuel, but they're also

oxide uranium fuel, but they're also looking at high temperature gas reactors

looking at high temperature gas reactors that use a new form of fuel called

that use a new form of fuel called trico. And that is a different kind of

trico. And that is a different kind of fuel that produces a different kind of

fuel that produces a different kind of waste. In Indonesia, the Thorcon reactor

waste. In Indonesia, the Thorcon reactor as I mentioned uses molten salt uh

as I mentioned uses molten salt uh technology which is a liquid kind of

technology which is a liquid kind of fuel and they're als they also have

fuel and they're als they also have their own design that uses tricofuel and

their own design that uses tricofuel and Thailand salt foss as I mentioned that's

Thailand salt foss as I mentioned that's another molten salt kind of reactor and

another molten salt kind of reactor and they're they're looking at uh Korea's

they're they're looking at uh Korea's smart reactor which uses your typical uh

smart reactor which uses your typical uh metal oxide fuel. So these produce

metal oxide fuel. So these produce different kinds of waste and different

different kinds of waste and different volumes of waste. So it's hard to

volumes of waste. So it's hard to predict how much waste you're going to

predict how much waste you're going to have to deal with unless you make these

have to deal with unless you make these decisions.

decisions. So with this information in mind, uh

So with this information in mind, uh what can we discuss? Well, we can tell

what can we discuss? Well, we can tell that these three countries have a lot of

that these three countries have a lot of common challenges when it comes to

common challenges when it comes to nuclear energy and radioactive waste.

nuclear energy and radioactive waste. But with common challenges comes the

But with common challenges comes the potential for cooperation. In nuclear

potential for cooperation. In nuclear energy development, I think um there's

energy development, I think um there's always a lot of plans, but as we know,

always a lot of plans, but as we know, plans are more likely to materialize if

plans are more likely to materialize if these countries come together uh to talk

these countries come together uh to talk to vendors as a group rather than

to vendors as a group rather than talking to individual vendors one at a

talking to individual vendors one at a time. But this requires aligning

time. But this requires aligning regulatory requirements so that um these

regulatory requirements so that um these companies don't have to go through or

companies don't have to go through or jump through the same hoops over and

jump through the same hoops over and over again because if one reactor is

over again because if one reactor is good enough for Indonesia, it should be

good enough for Indonesia, it should be good enough for the Philippines and

good enough for the Philippines and should be good enough for Thailand. But

should be good enough for Thailand. But as some of the um sessions earlier this

as some of the um sessions earlier this morning said, funding is also important.

morning said, funding is also important. We have to talk to multilateral

We have to talk to multilateral development uh banks and a lot of other

development uh banks and a lot of other financial institutions to fund these

financial institutions to fund these capital intensive projects. In terms of

capital intensive projects. In terms of radioactive waste management,

radioactive waste management, uh talk about funding, who's going to

uh talk about funding, who's going to pay for waste because this doesn't

pay for waste because this doesn't generate any income. Um is it the

generate any income. Um is it the government? Is it the waste generators?

government? Is it the waste generators? Do they have to pay into a fund or do

Do they have to pay into a fund or do they have to pay for the services? A

they have to pay for the services? A repository that can take in waste from

repository that can take in waste from different countries is an idea that

different countries is an idea that should be considered uh for cost

should be considered uh for cost savings. Uh but all options should be

savings. Uh but all options should be considered when it comes to the how we

considered when it comes to the how we manage and dispose radioactive waste

manage and dispose radioactive waste including deep warhole disposal and

including deep warhole disposal and maybe reprocessing once the

maybe reprocessing once the proliferation concerns have been

proliferation concerns have been addressed. In conclusion, the question

addressed. In conclusion, the question is, are we prepared for nuclear energy

is, are we prepared for nuclear energy and the radioactive waste that will be

and the radioactive waste that will be produced? Right now, the answer is no.

produced? Right now, the answer is no. But we can be if we cooperate between

But we can be if we cooperate between ourselves, if we cooperate with

ourselves, if we cooperate with countries that have experience in these

countries that have experience in these areas, and if we build on the progress

areas, and if we build on the progress and momentum that has already been made

and momentum that has already been made in these areas. Thank you so much. I'm

in these areas. Thank you so much. I'm happy to answer your questions now.

happy to answer your questions now. Thank you.

Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you for Mr. Chris Jero. I

>> Okay. Thank you for Mr. Chris Jero. I will open for the Q&A. Is there any

will open for the Q&A. Is there any question for the participant here?

question for the participant here? Okay.

>> Thank you Chris for the comprehensive uh presentation and also compressive uh

presentation and also compressive uh comparison.

comparison. >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> Uh how about the comparison of people

>> Uh how about the comparison of people acceptance in those countries? Do you

acceptance in those countries? Do you also study it?

also study it? >> Uh that that's a very important

>> Uh that that's a very important criteria. I I haven't been able to cover

criteria. I I haven't been able to cover it in my research, but um from what I've

it in my research, but um from what I've uh I mean I've seen some numbers that

uh I mean I've seen some numbers that say that public accept acceptance is

say that public accept acceptance is rising uh in terms of nuclear uh in uh

rising uh in terms of nuclear uh in uh all three of these countries.

all three of these countries. >> It's uh the the pattern is same. There's

>> It's uh the the pattern is same. There's a

a >> yeah it's it's going up. The numbers may

>> yeah it's it's going up. The numbers may not be exactly the same but the trend is

not be exactly the same but the trend is the same.

the same. >> Thank you.

Thank you. >> Uh thank you for that uh nice

>> Uh thank you for that uh nice presentation about nuclear energy. I'm

presentation about nuclear energy. I'm just curious about the factors that

just curious about the factors that determine the selection of the specific

determine the selection of the specific uh power capacity in implementing the

uh power capacity in implementing the nuclear energy. For example, in the

nuclear energy. For example, in the Philippines it was I think 1,200

Philippines it was I think 1,200 megawws. For Thailand is 600 megawws.

megawws. For Thailand is 600 megawws. And does this capacity depend on the

And does this capacity depend on the available area for the radioactive waste

available area for the radioactive waste management? And if yes, um what are the

management? And if yes, um what are the considerations or uh for such facilities

considerations or uh for such facilities or requirements?

or requirements? >> All right. Uh that's a good question. So

>> All right. Uh that's a good question. So these targets were set by um the

these targets were set by um the respective governments especially their

respective governments especially their energy ministries uh when formulating

energy ministries uh when formulating their energy plans. So those numbers are

their energy plans. So those numbers are not necessarily just one plant. Um in

not necessarily just one plant. Um in Thailand for example the 600 megawatts

Thailand for example the 600 megawatts is supposed to be two separate 300

is supposed to be two separate 300 megawatt facilities. So this is in total

megawatt facilities. So this is in total their targets. Um as for how they

their targets. Um as for how they decided that these are the targets I

decided that these are the targets I think the primary um factor was

think the primary um factor was feasibility. Um you know given the

feasibility. Um you know given the financial capacity of funding these

financial capacity of funding these kinds of projects. Uh they want to set

kinds of projects. Uh they want to set more modest targets uh early on. uh the

more modest targets uh early on. uh the big targets for Indonesia in 20 240

big targets for Indonesia in 20 240 and60

and60 uh th those haven't been um implemented

uh th those haven't been um implemented oh sorry those don't those aren't part

oh sorry those don't those aren't part of the national plans yet although they

of the national plans yet although they have been uh announced by uh certain uh

have been uh announced by uh certain uh members of the government uh so I think

members of the government uh so I think these are more political rather than

these are more political rather than technical considerations and I don't

technical considerations and I don't think they've factored in the waste uh

think they've factored in the waste uh that will be produced because like I

that will be produced because like I said it depends on the kind of reactors

said it depends on the kind of reactors you'll be choosing uh it's hard to

you'll be choosing uh it's hard to predict how much waste you'll produce uh

predict how much waste you'll produce uh even if you know how much energy they'll

even if you know how much energy they'll be generating.

>> Okay, thank you. We have another question.

question. >> Hello. Hi, nice presentation Chris. Uh

>> Hello. Hi, nice presentation Chris. Uh my question is uh generally in nuclear

my question is uh generally in nuclear other than waste management uh execution

other than waste management uh execution times is also supposed to be a big

times is also supposed to be a big challenge. Any comments on that? Uh

challenge. Any comments on that? Uh that's the first one and second thing is

that's the first one and second thing is uh where do you see uh other than these

uh where do you see uh other than these countries other countries plans also for

countries other countries plans also for nuclear and any place for uh nuclear as

nuclear and any place for uh nuclear as countries move towards more renewables

countries move towards more renewables and things like that.

and things like that. >> Right. Yes. Thank you. That's a great

>> Right. Yes. Thank you. That's a great question. Yeah. One of the uh issues

question. Yeah. One of the uh issues with nuclear is um a lot of nuclear

with nuclear is um a lot of nuclear projects go over budget and over time uh

projects go over budget and over time uh or over schedule. That's that was

or over schedule. That's that was certainly the case for the Batan nuclear

certainly the case for the Batan nuclear power plant in the Philippines. My

power plant in the Philippines. My comment on that is there's a lot to

comment on that is there's a lot to learn from countries like uh say Korea,

learn from countries like uh say Korea, China and Russia who are uh who build

China and Russia who are uh who build nuclear reactors a lot faster and a lot

nuclear reactors a lot faster and a lot cheaper compared to when you look at the

cheaper compared to when you look at the US or the west where they build nuclear

US or the west where they build nuclear reactors more expensive and they take a

reactors more expensive and they take a long time. Uh this is not a technical

long time. Uh this is not a technical issue. This is not a technology issue.

issue. This is not a technology issue. This is a policy and a regulatory issue.

This is a policy and a regulatory issue. Uh so I think these can be overcome uh

Uh so I think these can be overcome uh with the right partners uh and the right

with the right partners uh and the right regulatory frameworks. Uh for your

regulatory frameworks. Uh for your second question, I think there is still

second question, I think there is still a place for nuclear uh even when we're

a place for nuclear uh even when we're uh setting all of these renewable energy

uh setting all of these renewable energy targets because I think there is still a

targets because I think there is still a need for that base load and clean firm

need for that base load and clean firm uh technology uh while we wait for

uh technology uh while we wait for energy storage to be uh more feasible

energy storage to be uh more feasible and cheaper. uh nuclear still has a

and cheaper. uh nuclear still has a place to provide that base load uh

place to provide that base load uh capacity in addition to expanding uh

capacity in addition to expanding uh renewable energy capacities in the

renewable energy capacities in the region. Uh these are not uh goals that

region. Uh these are not uh goals that are in opposition to each other but they

are in opposition to each other but they can complement each other.

>> Okay. Thank you. Um I have one question since uh my career city uh following the

since uh my career city uh following the previous question from Mr. on the public

previous question from Mr. on the public acceptance. Uh from your perspective uh

acceptance. Uh from your perspective uh what like the indicators to like

what like the indicators to like increase the public willingness for the

increase the public willingness for the nuclear itself since uh we already have

nuclear itself since uh we already have several survey for the public. So what

several survey for the public. So what kind of the indicators of the the the

kind of the indicators of the the the things that can enhance the uh public

things that can enhance the uh public willingness for the

willingness for the >> Yeah. Yeah. No, that's that's a really

>> Yeah. Yeah. No, that's that's a really important um like I said the trends for

important um like I said the trends for public acceptance are going up in these

public acceptance are going up in these countries. I think part of this is

countries. I think part of this is because um misinformation about nuclear

because um misinformation about nuclear uh is easier to debunk now with like

uh is easier to debunk now with like social media. You can spread more

social media. You can spread more information about the safety and the

information about the safety and the benefits of nuclear energy. Um but I

benefits of nuclear energy. Um but I think a big driver of uh the rising uh

think a big driver of uh the rising uh acceptance is the cost of electricity.

acceptance is the cost of electricity. uh when when the public sees that their

uh when when the public sees that their uh their electricity bills are going up,

uh their electricity bills are going up, they're willing to consider any kind any

they're willing to consider any kind any other option, any alternative option. So

other option, any alternative option. So being able to communicate that nuclear

being able to communicate that nuclear has one of the lowest operational cost,

has one of the lowest operational cost, operation maintenance cost out of any um

operation maintenance cost out of any um uh source of energy, I think it goes a

uh source of energy, I think it goes a long way in convincing people that this

long way in convincing people that this is an option that should be considered.

is an option that should be considered. >> Okay. Thank you. Including the safety

>> Okay. Thank you. Including the safety and safety. Yeah. For the waste

and safety. Yeah. For the waste management. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. Thank

management. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. Thank you. I think it's comprehensive

you. I think it's comprehensive presentation from uh Miss Chris Jero.

presentation from uh Miss Chris Jero. Thank you. Uh give round of applause.

Thank you. Uh give round of applause. >> Thank you so much.

We have uh Mr. Michael Bound Samson Gregio that will present gas special

Gregio that will present gas special analysis of ocean wave energy potential

analysis of ocean wave energy potential in northern Lusan Philippines. Oh okay.

in northern Lusan Philippines. Oh okay. Okay Mr. uh Michael the time is yours.

Okay Mr. uh Michael the time is yours. You have 10 minutes for the

You have 10 minutes for the presentation.

presentation. >> So hello good morning everyone. I'm

>> So hello good morning everyone. I'm Michael Bon Samsam Gregorio. I'm

Michael Bon Samsam Gregorio. I'm connected with Mariana Marco State

connected with Mariana Marco State University and currently a master

University and currently a master student of the University of the

student of the University of the Philippines Diliman. So this is part of

Philippines Diliman. So this is part of my thesis which is entitled ge special

my thesis which is entitled ge special analysis of ocean wave energy in

analysis of ocean wave energy in northern luzon Philippines.

So the Philippine energy landscape um according to the Philippine energy plan

according to the Philippine energy plan this is the latest one that the

this is the latest one that the Philippines has an ambitious target of

Philippines has an ambitious target of more than 50% of renew renewable energy

more than 50% of renew renewable energy in its renewable uh in its energy mix by

in its renewable uh in its energy mix by 2050. However,

2050. However, um the Philippines currently has 33% of

um the Philippines currently has 33% of its R in its energy mix. So there is a

its R in its energy mix. So there is a need to look for additional renewable

need to look for additional renewable energy sources and one of that is the

energy sources and one of that is the untapped resource of ocean energy. So

untapped resource of ocean energy. So the Philippines has a vast and long

the Philippines has a vast and long coastlines yet the Philippines doesn't

coastlines yet the Philippines doesn't yet utilize the significant energy

yet utilize the significant energy potential of it. So the knowledge gap of

potential of it. So the knowledge gap of this is that there is a critical need of

this is that there is a critical need of comprehensive resource assessment and

comprehensive resource assessment and identify the suitable sites as the first

identify the suitable sites as the first step to consider and then to unlock this

step to consider and then to unlock this clean energy.

clean energy. So there are previous studies of wave

So there are previous studies of wave energy in the Philippines. Um the first

energy in the Philippines. Um the first one is from Kashe um in his review um he

one is from Kashe um in his review um he eliminated Philippines in his review in

eliminated Philippines in his review in Asia because Philippines has limited

Asia because Philippines has limited studies. The second one is in Kuras. his

studies. The second one is in Kuras. his assessment only covers for a year and it

assessment only covers for a year and it covers 47 locations. Meanwhile, for the

covers 47 locations. Meanwhile, for the capia, his simulation um only covers um

capia, his simulation um only covers um also for a year and he uses a swan model

also for a year and he uses a swan model and recommends running longer

and recommends running longer simulations for about 10 years. So for

simulations for about 10 years. So for the fourth one, Aminodine um he covers

the fourth one, Aminodine um he covers only a small portion of the Philippines

only a small portion of the Philippines which is in Palawan. So Palawan is a

which is in Palawan. So Palawan is a small island and it's a long island I

small island and it's a long island I mean and then it is followed by Palo his

mean and then it is followed by Palo his assessment is only focusing on the small

assessment is only focusing on the small islands of Palawan and lastly for Wang

islands of Palawan and lastly for Wang he recommends an IEC standards for the

he recommends an IEC standards for the wave energy resource assessment. So here

wave energy resource assessment. So here their assessment all of their assessment

their assessment all of their assessment only focuses on the wave potential and

only focuses on the wave potential and did not identify the suitable sites for

did not identify the suitable sites for the wave energy converter um deployment.

the wave energy converter um deployment. So for this study um I tried to identify

So for this study um I tried to identify the optimal and suitable locations for

the optimal and suitable locations for the development of for the deployment of

the development of for the deployment of wave energy plants using the AHP

wave energy plants using the AHP performed in ArcGIS Pro. So the data

performed in ArcGIS Pro. So the data layers I needed was um the wave energy

layers I needed was um the wave energy density, the significant wave heights,

density, the significant wave heights, um the water depth or the vimeter of the

um the water depth or the vimeter of the ocean, the distance from the shoreline

ocean, the distance from the shoreline um the distance from the ports and also

um the distance from the ports and also the proximity to the protected areas and

the proximity to the protected areas and the methodology is that um there are

the methodology is that um there are weights um given from the AHP and then

weights um given from the AHP and then it will be um aggregated using the sides

it will be um aggregated using the sides suitability analysis modeler using the

suitability analysis modeler using the JS Pro and the output will just be a

JS Pro and the output will just be a sight suitability map on where to put

sight suitability map on where to put the wave energy converters.

the wave energy converters. So the layers are um the wave energy

So the layers are um the wave energy density and the significant wave height

density and the significant wave height is an output of a model which came from

is an output of a model which came from the del 3D wave that is a software um

the del 3D wave that is a software um developed by the del university and the

developed by the del university and the weights are 28.19%

weights are 28.19% and 42.5%

and 42.5% respectively. So the water depth or the

respectively. So the water depth or the batimetry came from the Jebco 2023

batimetry came from the Jebco 2023 although there is a latest one which is

although there is a latest one which is the Jebco 2024 and the weight is 8.58%.

the Jebco 2024 and the weight is 8.58%. So the distance from the shoreline came

So the distance from the shoreline came from the Philippine administrative

from the Philippine administrative boundaries from the Namria and the

boundaries from the Namria and the Philippine Statistics Authority with the

Philippine Statistics Authority with the weight of 12.88%.

weight of 12.88%. And also for the distance to port um

And also for the distance to port um there is a Philippine seports um

there is a Philippine seports um available on the open street maps. And

available on the open street maps. And then lastly for the um distance to the

then lastly for the um distance to the protected areas that it is based from

protected areas that it is based from the world database on protected areas or

the world database on protected areas or and then in the Nepas which is the based

and then in the Nepas which is the based on the Philippine Republic Act 7586

on the Philippine Republic Act 7586 which weighted 3.04%.

which weighted 3.04%. So all of these criterias or layers and

So all of these criterias or layers and their weights will be utilized in the

their weights will be utilized in the suitability modeler in RJS Pro.

suitability modeler in RJS Pro. So the results came that on the part of

So the results came that on the part of northern Luzison um there is a suitable

northern Luzison um there is a suitable um areas

um areas mostly on the west side of the northern

mostly on the west side of the northern Lison and then a lot of areas in the

Lison and then a lot of areas in the Babuan group of islands. What's

Babuan group of islands. What's interesting here is that in the Babuan

interesting here is that in the Babuan group of islands they are not connected

group of islands they are not connected to the main grid. So if ever that this

to the main grid. So if ever that this um

um um this energy is being tapped to use

um this energy is being tapped to use for electric electricity harnessing um

for electric electricity harnessing um these babuan group of islands will not

these babuan group of islands will not depend on diesel power plants anymore.

So the conclusion is that um the primary locations identified is in the west

locations identified is in the west western coast of Luzon and then mostly

western coast of Luzon and then mostly on the Babuan islands and then however

on the Babuan islands and then however the regional suitability to contrast

the regional suitability to contrast that based on the previous slide the

that based on the previous slide the eastern side has a lower suitability and

eastern side has a lower suitability and then the initial data given from this

then the initial data given from this study can be a foundation for

study can be a foundation for investment. It can also inform national

investment. It can also inform national policy as an input for policy makers to

policy as an input for policy makers to include wave energy in the Philippine

include wave energy in the Philippine energy plan. So as of now um ocean

energy plan. So as of now um ocean energy is not being considered in the

energy is not being considered in the PEP. And then lastly, it can accelerate

PEP. And then lastly, it can accelerate the energy transition by providing clear

the energy transition by providing clear pathway for harnessing on top and it is

pathway for harnessing on top and it is considered an emerging um renewable

considered an emerging um renewable energy source. And as a ways forward,

energy source. And as a ways forward, what can we do next is that we can do

what can we do next is that we can do the technoconconomic deep dive on the

the technoconconomic deep dive on the selection of the wave energy converter

selection of the wave energy converter um LCO calculation, grid integration,

um LCO calculation, grid integration, infrastructure uh assessment. We can

infrastructure uh assessment. We can also do um environmental and social

also do um environmental and social assessments like EIA, social acceptance.

assessments like EIA, social acceptance. And finally for policy and strategic

And finally for policy and strategic planning, we can inform national energy

planning, we can inform national energy policy. We can also do marine planning

policy. We can also do marine planning and then we can start developing a pilot

and then we can start developing a pilot project. Thank you.

project. Thank you. >> Thank you for Mr. Michael for the

>> Thank you for Mr. Michael for the presentation. I will open for the Q&A.

presentation. I will open for the Q&A. Please you have any question.

>> Thank you very much for your presentation. Uh I would like to know a

presentation. Uh I would like to know a little bit more on uh how did you get

little bit more on uh how did you get the

the how did you determine the uh way and uh

how did you determine the uh way and uh of each parameters like is there any

of each parameters like is there any particular reason why the significant

particular reason why the significant wave height is the most uh dominant

wave height is the most uh dominant parameters that you consider.

Thank you. Here the weights the weights and the criteria being used here is

and the criteria being used here is based on a study by who atal. So who

based on a study by who atal. So who atal um studied um mostly on the South

atal um studied um mostly on the South China Sea which included the

China Sea which included the Philippines. So I directly adapted um

Philippines. So I directly adapted um the weights and the criteria being used

the weights and the criteria being used in their study.

in their study. >> Thank you.

>> Thank you. >> But it can also be good to conduct um

>> But it can also be good to conduct um interviews with other stakeholders in

interviews with other stakeholders in order for the AHP to be more accurate.

order for the AHP to be more accurate. And suppose if if you add another uh

And suppose if if you add another uh criteria like uh do you have any insight

criteria like uh do you have any insight how can we integrate the new criteria to

how can we integrate the new criteria to this uh waiting uh framework?

this uh waiting uh framework? >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> Yes. There are a lot of studies um

>> Yes. There are a lot of studies um defining different um criterias like um

defining different um criterias like um distance to the grid like that and

distance to the grid like that and distance to livelihood to the

distance to livelihood to the um but there are a lot of um criterias.

um but there are a lot of um criterias. However, this one is the most common

However, this one is the most common among them.

among them. >> I see. Thank you. Thank you very much.

>> I see. Thank you. Thank you very much. >> Next question.

Thank you. Sorry, I was Thank you for that presentation. I was fascinated when

that presentation. I was fascinated when you were presenting the previous studies

you were presenting the previous studies >> that exist

>> that exist >> uh mostly because I am from Palawan uh

>> uh mostly because I am from Palawan uh and they were looking at Palawan. I I

and they were looking at Palawan. I I I'm wondering because the results of

I'm wondering because the results of your assessment say that the the most um

your assessment say that the the most um appropriate areas are in the northern

appropriate areas are in the northern part of the country uh especially the

part of the country uh especially the Babuan Islands. Uh what was the reason

Babuan Islands. Uh what was the reason why these studies were looking at

why these studies were looking at Palawan?

Um these two studies are from my former um professors and um however my study is

um professors and um however my study is only limited on the northern Luzon

only limited on the northern Luzon because northern Luzison um they don't

because northern Luzison um they don't have studies yet on the northern part

have studies yet on the northern part and then for the for the ones in Palawan

and then for the for the ones in Palawan I think they just um did their research

I think they just um did their research because it's on their it's what it's in

because it's on their it's what it's in their hometowns like that. So, so is

their hometowns like that. So, so is there any way to do to be able to

there any way to do to be able to compare um like across the country where

compare um like across the country where the areas that are most uh appropriate

the areas that are most uh appropriate are?

are? >> Actually um the initial site of my study

>> Actually um the initial site of my study is the whole Philippines but it will

is the whole Philippines but it will require a lot of time a lot of data and

require a lot of time a lot of data and my computer will not um

my computer will not um I will not work on the whole

I will not work on the whole Philippines. So we limited only to

Philippines. So we limited only to northern Luzon.

northern Luzon. >> So it's possible with more like

>> So it's possible with more like computing power.

computing power. >> Yes. Yes.

>> Yes. Yes. >> Okay. Thank you.

>> Okay. Thank you. >> This possible.

>> This possible. >> Okay. Is there any another question?

>> Okay. Is there any another question? >> Okay.

>> Okay. >> Thank you Michael for that presentation.

>> Thank you Michael for that presentation. And can I see again the suitability map?

And can I see again the suitability map? uh I would like to ask how did you

uh I would like to ask how did you divide the categories or the classes of

divide the categories or the classes of each uh suitability class and um

each uh suitability class and um why are yeah that one and as I can see

why are yeah that one and as I can see there's no very suitable areas in that

there's no very suitable areas in that particular area so what is the reason

particular area so what is the reason behind it

behind it maybe the ranging of the

maybe the ranging of the um suitability classes

um suitability classes Um this one is um for the suitability

Um this one is um for the suitability maps. So from 0 to one, one to two um

maps. So from 0 to one, one to two um based on the percentages on the um GI

based on the percentages on the um GI GIS um suitability modeler um there

GIS um suitability modeler um there the result doesn't come up with a very

the result doesn't come up with a very high suitable on that area. So depending

high suitable on that area. So depending on some of the six factors

on some of the six factors >> but did you try to explore what maybe

>> but did you try to explore what maybe the the main reason or maybe they are

the the main reason or maybe they are not they are far from this particular

not they are far from this particular criteria or what? Um I haven't explored

criteria or what? Um I haven't explored it yet but it can be included in the

it yet but it can be included in the next phase of my study.

>> Okay. Thank you. Uh I think uh give a round of applause for Mr. Michael for

round of applause for Mr. Michael for the presentation.

Next I will call for the next presenter um Mr. Phillip Napier Moore but

um Mr. Phillip Napier Moore but Dr. M. Oh yeah Dr. Mingan yeah that will

Dr. M. Oh yeah Dr. Mingan yeah that will present unlocking small modular reactor

present unlocking small modular reactor potential in ASEAN through regularity

potential in ASEAN through regularity convergence and innovation.

convergence and innovation. Yeah you have 10 minute

Yeah you have 10 minute Dr.

>> So, it's your title presentation. >> Yeah, but look.

>> Okay, never mind. Okay, please the time is yours.

is yours. >> Okay, thank you. Um, first of all, thank

>> Okay, thank you. Um, first of all, thank you. Um, my name is Ming Tan. I'm the

you. Um, my name is Ming Tan. I'm the global practice lead for Nuclear in a

global practice lead for Nuclear in a company called MK McDonald. If you don't

company called MK McDonald. If you don't know who what MK McDonald is, MK

know who what MK McDonald is, MK McDonald is a engine consultancy firm.

McDonald is a engine consultancy firm. That's a global organization with over

That's a global organization with over 20,000 people and headquarter in the UK

20,000 people and headquarter in the UK and and we have about 900 people or so

and and we have about 900 people or so currently working in the nuclear

currently working in the nuclear industry, mostly in UK and Europe.

industry, mostly in UK and Europe. However, uh we very much focusing on

However, uh we very much focusing on Southeast Asia right now. We try to grow

Southeast Asia right now. We try to grow the workforce and our market share in

the workforce and our market share in the nuclear industry in Southeast Asia.

the nuclear industry in Southeast Asia. Hence, I want to provide some of

Hence, I want to provide some of thinking and how we can help country to

thinking and how we can help country to to bring nuclear into it. You've seen a

to bring nuclear into it. You've seen a presentation earlier.

presentation earlier. You seen a presentation earlier by I

You seen a presentation earlier by I think Carlos. Um you hear a lot of very

think Carlos. Um you hear a lot of very similar information.

Okay, that's fine. That's fine. Okay. Um, so you hear a lot of similar

Um, so you hear a lot of similar information um from Carlos just now. Um,

information um from Carlos just now. Um, but this is wider and cover more areas.

but this is wider and cover more areas. Um, and we'll go through it. You'll see.

Um, and we'll go through it. You'll see. So, you hear this many times already.

So, you hear this many times already. I'm not going to repeat. Basically, we

I'm not going to repeat. Basically, we have increased demand. We have net zero

have increased demand. We have net zero target. And we can do lots of things to

target. And we can do lots of things to try to fix it. But ultimately you still

try to fix it. But ultimately you still need base load and you need to replace

need base load and you need to replace the gas, you need to replace your coal,

the gas, you need to replace your coal, you need to replace all the

you need to replace all the hydrocarbons. Nuclear seems a very good

hydrocarbons. Nuclear seems a very good idea and especially small model reactors

idea and especially small model reactors seem to be a very good idea because you

seem to be a very good idea because you can then replace a similar size CCGT gas

can then replace a similar size CCGT gas and things like that. And so

and things like that. And so clearly there's interest and many many

clearly there's interest and many many countries have been looking at it. I

countries have been looking at it. I think earlier they talk about

think earlier they talk about Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, there

Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, there are more. In fact, this is just a quick

are more. In fact, this is just a quick search of the internet you found in

search of the internet you found in ASEAN. All these countries, Indonesia,

ASEAN. All these countries, Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand, Philippine, Malaysia,

Vietnam, Thailand, Philippine, Malaysia, Singapore is looking at it. Even

Singapore is looking at it. Even actually we Mdonald just currently

actually we Mdonald just currently started a study on on Singapore for

started a study on on Singapore for example potentially looking at nuclear

example potentially looking at nuclear in Singapore.

in Singapore. And this is another way of presenting

And this is another way of presenting the information purely from a timeline

the information purely from a timeline perspective. Again just looking at from

perspective. Again just looking at from 2022 there's so much interest in various

2022 there's so much interest in various different country and this is purely on

different country and this is purely on ASEAN and then you look wider in COP 28

ASEAN and then you look wider in COP 28 for example 30 countries say they're

for example 30 countries say they're going to triple the nuclear by 2050. So

going to triple the nuclear by 2050. So the demands not just in ASEAN but

the demands not just in ASEAN but globally.

globally. So what are all these country in common?

So what are all these country in common? Most importantly, all the ASEAN country

Most importantly, all the ASEAN country we're talking about here, they're not a

we're talking about here, they're not a traditional nuclear country. What does

traditional nuclear country. What does that mean? I think earlier pres

that mean? I think earlier pres presentation already said it's very

presentation already said it's very difficult to bring nuclear in. To be a

difficult to bring nuclear in. To be a nuclear country, you need to cover a lot

nuclear country, you need to cover a lot of grounds. So, how to become a nuclear

of grounds. So, how to become a nuclear country?

country? First of all, you look at the strategic

First of all, you look at the strategic and policy framework that will cover

and policy framework that will cover like how to integrate nuclear into the

like how to integrate nuclear into the national energy strategy. You then need

national energy strategy. You then need to look at the technical infrastructure

to look at the technical infrastructure that would be your site study, your

that would be your site study, your environmental study, your grid

environmental study, your grid connections, your waste management that

connections, your waste management that was talked about. International legal

was talked about. International legal obligation that would be your Paris

obligation that would be your Paris convention, BN convention, one 123

convention, BN convention, one 123 agreement, all these need to be dealt

agreement, all these need to be dealt with. Then of course, how do you think

with. Then of course, how do you think you're going to set up? Is it a plant

you're going to set up? Is it a plant owner operators? Are you just going to

owner operators? Are you just going to bring have a technology vendors or you

bring have a technology vendors or you going to build a defco? So many things

going to build a defco? So many things to look at. Of course, money. Money been

to look at. Of course, money. Money been talked about a lot of time already. And

talked about a lot of time already. And last but definitely not least is the

last but definitely not least is the legal and regulatory framework that

legal and regulatory framework that itself can spend a lot of time a lot of

itself can spend a lot of time a lot of way you can look at it and but luckily

way you can look at it and but luckily the IEA been quite nice and have some

the IEA been quite nice and have some milestone approach. is clearly

milestone approach. is clearly identifying the IIA document that you

identifying the IIA document that you can look at three phases policy legal

can look at three phases policy legal readiness regulatory HR developments and

readiness regulatory HR developments and etc.

etc. So

So it is very complex and a lot a lot of

it is very complex and a lot a lot of things you need to do to bring nuclear

things you need to do to bring nuclear in and each country have different

in and each country have different challenges. Singapore for example very

challenges. Singapore for example very small the emergency planning zone will

small the emergency planning zone will be so large Indonesia for example or the

be so large Indonesia for example or the islands how this grid going to work so

islands how this grid going to work so you have all country have all different

you have all country have all different challenges but why are we only focusing

challenges but why are we only focusing the challenges can't we look at a

the challenges can't we look at a commonality the more important thing is

commonality the more important thing is look at what's the same not what's

look at what's the same not what's different and

different and basically the question is why can't we

basically the question is why can't we work together that's what we're

work together that's what we're suggesting we look at it there are three

suggesting we look at it there are three main areas we can work together want to

main areas we can work together want to maximize the commonality focus on the

maximize the commonality focus on the licensing and technology together and

licensing and technology together and more so look at the supply chain

more so look at the supply chain together I go through one by one but in

together I go through one by one but in a very short manner just cover a few key

a very short manner just cover a few key points

points if you look at the commonality okay I

if you look at the commonality okay I said already to maintain the sovereign

said already to maintain the sovereign of each country you need to uh each

of each country you need to uh each country will have to do their own things

country will have to do their own things but there's no reason why you can't

but there's no reason why you can't combine a lot of things together. Um,

combine a lot of things together. Um, for example, UK, US, Canada for example,

for example, UK, US, Canada for example, they're working quite closely with the

they're working quite closely with the recently signed MOC memorandum of

recently signed MOC memorandum of collaborations that look at the

collaborations that look at the regulatory framework together. And if

regulatory framework together. And if you look at that, if you imagine even

you look at that, if you imagine even the UK, US and Canada can do that. Why

the UK, US and Canada can do that. Why can't ASEAN? Why am I using that as an

can't ASEAN? Why am I using that as an example? because US and UK um regulatory

example? because US and UK um regulatory framework is very very different. In the

framework is very very different. In the US framework is what you call a

US framework is what you call a prescriptive framework is basically

prescriptive framework is basically asking you that you must do this, you

asking you that you must do this, you must do this, my reactor size must be

must do this, my reactor size must be this much, my fault level should be this

this much, my fault level should be this much. Whereas in UK is what we call goal

much. Whereas in UK is what we call goal setting framework which is basically say

setting framework which is basically say please tell me how safe is the

please tell me how safe is the technology. Can you demonstrate you

technology. Can you demonstrate you reach this target level? So they are two

reach this target level? So they are two completely different type of philosophy

completely different type of philosophy where Canadian uh usually go in the

where Canadian uh usually go in the between bit of the US and bit of the UK.

between bit of the US and bit of the UK. So ASEAN is now in a quite a unique

So ASEAN is now in a quite a unique opportunity. You're right at the

opportunity. You're right at the beginning of your regulatory framework

beginning of your regulatory framework build up. So the key in my opinion is

build up. So the key in my opinion is you have to pick the right philosophy.

you have to pick the right philosophy. It's no not which one is right but you

It's no not which one is right but you have to do it together. What you can't

have to do it together. What you can't have is half of a Assean using a UK

have is half of a Assean using a UK framework, the other half using a US

framework, the other half using a US framework. Then you can't work together.

framework. Then you can't work together. What you need is all the ASEAN country

What you need is all the ASEAN country pick a similar framework. Of course,

pick a similar framework. Of course, each will have slightly different

each will have slightly different uniqueness, but majority of them will be

uniqueness, but majority of them will be the same. Same with codes and standards.

the same. Same with codes and standards. You have to follow the same uh family of

You have to follow the same uh family of codes and standards in this case. Of

codes and standards in this case. Of course, you can share a lot of training

course, you can share a lot of training and upskilling together. There's no

and upskilling together. There's no reason why you have different training

reason why you have different training centers for each country. Can you not

centers for each country. Can you not share them?

share them? There are more there are common

There are more there are common qualifications safeguarding challenge

qualifications safeguarding challenge etc. I'm not going to go through it

etc. I'm not going to go through it because it's quite a lot things you can

because it's quite a lot things you can do. And the second thing I think is

do. And the second thing I think is actually the most important thing is the

actually the most important thing is the technology.

technology. Every country that come they say I want

Every country that come they say I want to bring nuclear into my country. The

to bring nuclear into my country. The first thing they would do which

first thing they would do which technology is a Russian technology is a

technology is a Russian technology is a Korean technology is a PWR is a BWR all

Korean technology is a PWR is a BWR all big family of technologies and each

big family of technologies and each country will then look look at their own

country will then look look at their own due diligence. We look at their own

due diligence. We look at their own safety assessment.

safety assessment. Why do it six seven times when you can

Why do it six seven times when you can do it once jointly together? Do it once

do it once jointly together? Do it once and cover all different countries and uh

and cover all different countries and uh you can have a handful of technologies.

you can have a handful of technologies. What that means is I uh you probably

What that means is I uh you probably know all this already. In SMRs you have

know all this already. In SMRs you have gen 3 and gen four reactors. Gen 3

gen 3 and gen four reactors. Gen 3 reactors is basically cool water cool

reactors is basically cool water cool reactor and gen 4 different way of

reactor and gen 4 different way of cooling is slightly more uh less mature

cooling is slightly more uh less mature but potentially much higher use and

but potentially much higher use and probably more suitable in our young

probably more suitable in our young country. But the point I'm trying to

country. But the point I'm trying to make is what you can do potentially you

make is what you can do potentially you can select a suit of technology that is

can select a suit of technology that is similar to a large seabbase area. a

similar to a large seabbase area. a large area near the sea with excess of

large area near the sea with excess of water. You could have select two or

water. You could have select two or three island focused technology. You can

three island focused technology. You can select again two or three of industrial

select again two or three of industrial use technology. So you have pre-approved

use technology. So you have pre-approved or pre-reed technology for the ASEAN

or pre-reed technology for the ASEAN country to look at. Then what that means

country to look at. Then what that means is if you if say Malaysia want to pick

is if you if say Malaysia want to pick up uh nuclear SMS for example, I don't

up uh nuclear SMS for example, I don't have to redo my analysis because ASEAN

have to redo my analysis because ASEAN have done a lot of work already. I just

have done a lot of work already. I just need to look at the suitability of this

need to look at the suitability of this technology to my site.

technology to my site. And then the third one is more about

And then the third one is more about supply chain to bring a nuclear power

supply chain to bring a nuclear power plant into a country is big challenge.

plant into a country is big challenge. You need to cover a lot of skills.

You need to cover a lot of skills. A single country in ASEAN personally I

A single country in ASEAN personally I could be wrong have the capacity and the

could be wrong have the capacity and the capability to cover all grounds. Why

capability to cover all grounds. Why can't each country focus on an area that

can't each country focus on an area that they're good at? For example, Malaysia

they're good at? For example, Malaysia might say, "Oh, I like to do the

might say, "Oh, I like to do the instrumental control because I'm good at

instrumental control because I'm good at digital." And Singapore may say, "Oh,

digital." And Singapore may say, "Oh, cyber security. This the way I want to

cyber security. This the way I want to focus on." Indonesia may say, "Ah, I

focus on." Indonesia may say, "Ah, I want to do forging manufacturing." If

want to do forging manufacturing." If one country be the center of excellence

one country be the center of excellence of one key area and working together as

of one key area and working together as a as a Assean network that will then

a as a Assean network that will then give you a much better chance to be

give you a much better chance to be successful. I haven't even touched about

successful. I haven't even touched about few yet because I'm running out of time

few yet because I'm running out of time very quickly. Um I'm going to move

very quickly. Um I'm going to move straight on to why I suggesting all

straight on to why I suggesting all this. So what it means there are four

this. So what it means there are four key area why this is very beneficial.

key area why this is very beneficial. First of all of course you save money

First of all of course you save money and time. What it means is I just need

and time. What it means is I just need to do my assessment once and then just

to do my assessment once and then just look at the suitability of it. Of course

look at the suitability of it. Of course you save money. And secondly if one

you save money. And secondly if one country say I want to do nuclear and

country say I want to do nuclear and want to do all the publicity of it. Yeah

want to do all the publicity of it. Yeah it's fine. But if a whole assean a few

it's fine. But if a whole assean a few countries doing together is much

countries doing together is much stronger. It means like everyone is

stronger. It means like everyone is doing it. And the third one we need to

doing it. And the third one we need to understand from SMR vendors perspective,

understand from SMR vendors perspective, it's not just about you choosing which

it's not just about you choosing which technology. It also about the technology

technology. It also about the technology choosing you. We know there's so many

choosing you. We know there's so many country wanted nuclear right now. So as

country wanted nuclear right now. So as one single country if I say I only want

one single country if I say I only want one unit why would the vendor focus time

one unit why would the vendor focus time on you just sell one unit I can sell

on you just sell one unit I can sell here for 10. But as a collectively asan

here for 10. But as a collectively asan I want to buy eight or 10. Suddenly you

I want to buy eight or 10. Suddenly you are in a different beast. They will

are in a different beast. They will customize the design for you because you

customize the design for you because you are a big enough market. And last but

are a big enough market. And last but definitely not least, I think this is a

definitely not least, I think this is a chance to collectively work together and

chance to collectively work together and therefore focus on the key area and the

therefore focus on the key area and the key skills that that country is good at

key skills that that country is good at and then together you have all the

and then together you have all the skills you needed to build a nuclear

skills you needed to build a nuclear power plant.

power plant. And I just finished it for your code

And I just finished it for your code really nuclear energy is not an option.

really nuclear energy is not an option. Um it sounded very pro nuclear but that

Um it sounded very pro nuclear but that is very much my view and innovation

is very much my view and innovation today is for the energy security for

today is for the energy security for tomorrow. Thank you.

tomorrow. Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you very much for Dr. Mingan

>> Okay. Thank you very much for Dr. Mingan for your congressional presentation. I

for your congressional presentation. I will open for the Q&A if you have any

will open for the Q&A if you have any question for Dr. Mingan.

>> Hi Dr. Thank you for that wonderful presentation. um especially the focus on

presentation. um especially the focus on SMRs. Uh I've talked about all of the

SMRs. Uh I've talked about all of the different companies and different SMRs

different companies and different SMRs that different countries in ASEAN are

that different countries in ASEAN are talking to individually. What what is

talking to individually. What what is driving the motivation on the side of

driving the motivation on the side of the the companies the interest in

the the companies the interest in Southeast Asia? like why are these SMR

Southeast Asia? like why are these SMR companies looking at Southeast Asia

companies looking at Southeast Asia going like we might want to talk to

going like we might want to talk to these countries and build there

these countries and build there >> ultimately it's business that is well

>> ultimately it's business that is well you from the SMR perspective SMR selling

you from the SMR perspective SMR selling single unit would not work selling

single unit would not work selling single unit would be just a smaller

single unit would be just a smaller version of a large gigawatt it could be

version of a large gigawatt it could be expensive and it would take a long time

expensive and it would take a long time but when they want to talk to these

but when they want to talk to these different countries the only way of SMR

different countries the only way of SMR to be successful is to be a commodity

to be successful is to be a commodity Okay. And to uh have a fleet deployment

Okay. And to uh have a fleet deployment really what you want is um selling SMRs

really what you want is um selling SMRs is buying an SMR is like buying a CCGT

is buying an SMR is like buying a CCGT plant or even worse is like buying a

plant or even worse is like buying a Airbus A380. That is basically that's

Airbus A380. That is basically that's one level you want to get to the SMR. So

one level you want to get to the SMR. So um at the moment you would pro you

um at the moment you would pro you probably know that it's not single SMR

probably know that it's not single SMR currently in the western world is

currently in the western world is developing energy. in under construction

developing energy. in under construction and of course right now they're ex

and of course right now they're ex exploring as many market as possible in

exploring as many market as possible in this case and um

this case and um Southeast Asia is

Southeast Asia is very mature from SMR uh vendors

very mature from SMR uh vendors perspective is a great market because

perspective is a great market because you're new to nuclear and you don't have

you're new to nuclear and you don't have the baggage of the traditional nuclear

the baggage of the traditional nuclear country so you can actually have your

country so you can actually have your regulations

regulations to build around SMRs rather than your

to build around SMRs rather than your traditional large scale reactor, your

traditional large scale reactor, your NRC's, your ONRS, etc. So, they're very

NRC's, your ONRS, etc. So, they're very interested, but the point I try to

interested, but the point I try to emphasize is the aim is not to sell one,

emphasize is the aim is not to sell one, it's about a fleet. That's the key.

it's about a fleet. That's the key. Yeah.

>> Thank you. Is there any another question?

>> Hello. So thank you for very interesting presentations. Um

presentations. Um um I am currently PhD student in Shenmai

um I am currently PhD student in Shenmai University Thailand. I am studying the

University Thailand. I am studying the Thailand energy security policy and I

Thailand energy security policy and I came up with this um this policy uh

came up with this um this policy uh discourse around nuclear energies. As

discourse around nuclear energies. As you may have already known that Thailand

you may have already known that Thailand has proposed a lot of um nuclear in the

has proposed a lot of um nuclear in the renewable energy grid and it's been

renewable energy grid and it's been proposed small modular plan as the

proposed small modular plan as the secure energy and uh it's been narrated

secure energy and uh it's been narrated as a safe uh energy compared to other

as a safe uh energy compared to other traditional nuclear um energy plants. So

traditional nuclear um energy plants. So I just want to know um if I might be

I just want to know um if I might be wrong because based on what I understand

wrong because based on what I understand and what I learned SMR is still very

and what I learned SMR is still very emerging technology and not a lot of uh

emerging technology and not a lot of uh country has quite implemented. If I'm

country has quite implemented. If I'm wrong you can help me. Um it has already

wrong you can help me. Um it has already only been implemented in Russia, China

only been implemented in Russia, China and some other countries. So it's still

and some other countries. So it's still very emerging. So maybe probably I just

very emerging. So maybe probably I just want to get your opinions or how much

want to get your opinions or how much has been studies about these safeties

has been studies about these safeties and social implications of this SMR and

and social implications of this SMR and compared to other. Thank you.

compared to other. Thank you. >> Great question. Thank you for asking

>> Great question. Thank you for asking that so that I can explain. Um basically

that so that I can explain. Um basically SMRs are there two big families of SMRS.

SMRs are there two big families of SMRS. The first family of SMRs is what you

The first family of SMRs is what you call a gen 3 plus that is what

call a gen 3 plus that is what lightwater reactor. That's essentially a

lightwater reactor. That's essentially a smaller size larger scale reactor with

smaller size larger scale reactor with the exception that it's modular and more

the exception that it's modular and more importantly is passive safety. So what

importantly is passive safety. So what it means that it's small enough that if

it means that it's small enough that if there's a say a Fukushima to happen we

there's a say a Fukushima to happen we don't need any human intervention. So

don't need any human intervention. So that technology is very mature.

that technology is very mature. So in terms of um regulations and safety

So in terms of um regulations and safety there's a few already been through the

there's a few already been through the national NRC which is a US regulation

national NRC which is a US regulation and some going to the UK in the very

and some going to the UK in the very final stage and uh some one well one

final stage and uh some one well one been approved in Korea the second one's

been approved in Korea the second one's going a lot of the gen 3 plus technology

going a lot of the gen 3 plus technology is highly mature and there is you're

is highly mature and there is you're right that currently only Russia and

right that currently only Russia and China have one completed but it's quite

China have one completed but it's quite a few under construction construction or

a few under construction construction or confirm will be developed. The one that

confirm will be developed. The one that is more emerging is the gen 4 reactor.

is more emerging is the gen 4 reactor. Although one or two of them we we

Although one or two of them we we disagree but most of them are behind to

disagree but most of them are behind to the gen 3 reactor. What they do they are

the gen 3 reactor. What they do they are using a different way of cooling such as

using a different way of cooling such as high temperature gas such as molten salt

high temperature gas such as molten salt such as metal uh cool reactor. There

such as metal uh cool reactor. There various different way but they bring

various different way but they bring significant benefits. For example, some

significant benefits. For example, some are load following which would be great

are load following which would be great for the grids and some you can use it

for the grids and some you can use it for district heat for deselination.

for district heat for deselination. There's even a couple that was is

There's even a couple that was is designed for space for m for in future

designed for space for m for in future for moon base for example. So is that so

for moon base for example. So is that so so many different level typically people

so many different level typically people would say the gen 3 plus is for 2030s

would say the gen 3 plus is for 2030s the gen 4 is for 2040s. So this is

the gen 4 is for 2040s. So this is typically the sort of timeline that we

typically the sort of timeline that we we're looking at. So,

we're looking at. So, so to answer your question in short,

so to answer your question in short, they are technology that is ready to

they are technology that is ready to deploy and mature, but there are a lot

deploy and mature, but there are a lot of emerging technology that will need

of emerging technology that will need probably 5 to 10 years to get there.

>> Okay. >> And they are safer and than the larger

>> And they are safer and than the larger scale.

>> Thank you. Is there any question for the participant here?

participant here? Maybe as information from the essence

Maybe as information from the essence center for energy we have like a working

center for energy we have like a working group also in nuclear uh nuclear energy

group also in nuclear uh nuclear energy council uh as we have the APAC the seven

council uh as we have the APAC the seven program area one of it is uh nuclear

program area one of it is uh nuclear civilian nuclear energy uh I think uh in

civilian nuclear energy uh I think uh in your first uh point on the uh maximum

your first uh point on the uh maximum commonality for the um joint

commonality for the um joint collaboration for among me states uh we

collaboration for among me states uh we do agree that uh during this uh aayak we

do agree that uh during this uh aayak we have several milestone uh including the

have several milestone uh including the um uh enhance the uh public um uh

um uh enhance the uh public um uh awareness through our study uh training

awareness through our study uh training uh for the SMB states capacity building

uh for the SMB states capacity building for the nuclear. I think it's very

for the nuclear. I think it's very interesting to also hear your thoughts

interesting to also hear your thoughts on the SMR. Okay. Thank you.

on the SMR. Okay. Thank you. >> Um give a round of applause for Dr.

>> Um give a round of applause for Dr. Mingan.

Okay. So for the next presenter we have Mr. Philip Nafier Moore

Mr. Philip Nafier Moore that will present on the firm renewables

that will present on the firm renewables as a catalyst for lowc carbon energy

as a catalyst for lowc carbon energy transition in Assean a case study of

transition in Assean a case study of Asan largest hybrid solar and base

Asan largest hybrid solar and base project. You have 10 minutes

project. You have 10 minutes presentation. The time is yours sir.

presentation. The time is yours sir. >> Thank you. So I'm also from M McDonald

>> Thank you. So I'm also from M McDonald so I don't introduce too much but I'm

so I don't introduce too much but I'm coming from our Asia business. I'm based

coming from our Asia business. I'm based in Thailand. I've been there 17 years um

in Thailand. I've been there 17 years um working on the energy transition in Asia

working on the energy transition in Asia primarily on solar and wind power with

primarily on solar and wind power with uh power interconnection.

So you know um Ming introduced what we're doing in nuclear in the um

we're doing in nuclear in the um renewables and energy storage space. Um

renewables and energy storage space. Um we've done a lot around the world um and

we've done a lot around the world um and particularly strong focus in Asia. So uh

particularly strong focus in Asia. So uh we've worked on most of the onshore wind

we've worked on most of the onshore wind in Southeast Asia, most of the offshore

in Southeast Asia, most of the offshore wind in Northeast Asia, a lot of the

wind in Northeast Asia, a lot of the solar for example.

solar for example. And

And I wanted to bring to your attention a

I wanted to bring to your attention a case study. I don't know, show of hands,

case study. I don't know, show of hands, how many people know about the Terraas

how many people know about the Terraas Solar Project in the Philippines?

Solar Project in the Philippines? Terasol Project. Anybody? Well, that's

Terasol Project. Anybody? Well, that's good because I'm going to tell you about

good because I'm going to tell you about it. So, but before I talk about that,

it. So, but before I talk about that, I'll just set the scene some context.

I'll just set the scene some context. Um, you're probably aware there's been a

Um, you're probably aware there's been a lot of press that, um, prices for both

lot of press that, um, prices for both solar and battery have fallen very

solar and battery have fallen very steeply, right? They followed this very

steeply, right? They followed this very steep curve that you can call Wright's

steep curve that you can call Wright's law. You know, you see in the top right

law. You know, you see in the top right there, this virtuous circle of more

there, this virtuous circle of more deployment leading to prices falling,

deployment leading to prices falling, competitive in new markets, demand

competitive in new markets, demand increases, it leads to more deployment.

increases, it leads to more deployment. So this is quite different from what you

So this is quite different from what you see in traditional power generation

see in traditional power generation um which is more what you see in coal

um which is more what you see in coal and gas that there have been reductions

and gas that there have been reductions in real terms but much much steeper um

in real terms but much much steeper um for for solar and for wind. Um now these

for for solar and for wind. Um now these graphs you know for example for battery

graphs you know for example for battery only go up to 2020. There's some more

only go up to 2020. There's some more recent reports that have come out in the

recent reports that have come out in the last month or so that do show data up to

last month or so that do show data up to 2024, but the most um competitive

2024, but the most um competitive battery prices are now coming in at less

battery prices are now coming in at less than $100 per kilowatt hour for a fully

than $100 per kilowatt hour for a fully installed system globally. This is for

installed system globally. This is for cells, so it's not directly comparable,

cells, so it's not directly comparable, but that's a massive, massive reduction,

but that's a massive, massive reduction, and it's making possible applications

and it's making possible applications that weren't before.

that weren't before. So we reached an important milestone in

So we reached an important milestone in 2023 when um the IEA renewables report

2023 when um the IEA renewables report showed that 96% of new global capacity

showed that 96% of new global capacity for both wind and solar was lower cost

for both wind and solar was lower cost than thermal power alternatives for

than thermal power alternatives for power generation right for a kilowatt

power generation right for a kilowatt hour injected into the grid not

hour injected into the grid not accounting for the additional cost you

accounting for the additional cost you would need in flexibility services you

would need in flexibility services you know there will be a maximum penetration

know there will be a maximum penetration limit of those renewables into the grid

limit of those renewables into the grid and there will be costs of going beyond

and there will be costs of going beyond that um

that um those limits can be addressed by energy

those limits can be addressed by energy storage by stronger grids by other

storage by stronger grids by other flexibility services. So um

flexibility services. So um interconnectors are one strong way that

interconnectors are one strong way that the UK manages its flexibility for

the UK manages its flexibility for example.

example. Now I think the the interesting

Now I think the the interesting milestone is that as of last year solar

milestone is that as of last year solar with battery storage can now be

with battery storage can now be competitive with midmer coal and gas

competitive with midmer coal and gas fired plant. So we're talking 50% or 50

fired plant. So we're talking 50% or 50 to 60% load factors. So 50 to 60% hour

to 60% load factors. So 50 to 60% hour of the hours of the year. So maybe 12 to

of the hours of the year. So maybe 12 to 14 hours a day. You can be dispatching

14 hours a day. You can be dispatching um solar power on a firmed basis. You

um solar power on a firmed basis. You can be using time shifting. This is

can be using time shifting. This is quite different from how we've used

quite different from how we've used batteries in the past. We've used

batteries in the past. We've used battery storage at utility scale for

battery storage at utility scale for ancillary services, for frequency

ancillary services, for frequency control, for um to basically help

control, for um to basically help stabilize the grid. but we haven't

stabilize the grid. but we haven't really used it to produce firm blocks of

really used it to produce firm blocks of power in the same way that a thermal

power in the same way that a thermal power plant would. Um, the world's first

power plant would. Um, the world's first 24-hour solar project with a very high

24-hour solar project with a very high installed battery capacity is now

installed battery capacity is now proceeding in Abu Dhabi. So, the battery

proceeding in Abu Dhabi. So, the battery capacity will be roughly 20 times the

capacity will be roughly 20 times the installed capacity or what or the the

installed capacity or what or the the output capacity. Um and we are seeing

output capacity. Um and we are seeing increased industry demand for firmed

increased industry demand for firmed renewables in ASEAN um because of uh

renewables in ASEAN um because of uh firms that are committed to being

firms that are committed to being renewable renewably sourced RE 100 firms

renewable renewably sourced RE 100 firms um including data centers and in some

um including data centers and in some cases because of the EU carbon border

cases because of the EU carbon border where um energy intensive products need

where um energy intensive products need to um if they don't source their power

to um if they don't source their power from renewables then they pay a tax a

from renewables then they pay a tax a tariff at the border.

So the concept simply um if you just have solar on its own in a sunny place

have solar on its own in a sunny place you might be generating um at full load

you might be generating um at full load equivalent for 20% of the hours of a

equivalent for 20% of the hours of a year. You know you can see this bell

year. You know you can see this bell curve here which is a nice clear sky day

curve here which is a nice clear sky day no clouds um that's only a fifth of the

no clouds um that's only a fifth of the overall block in gray you see there. So

overall block in gray you see there. So if you want to move to the right hand

if you want to move to the right hand side and have 100% penetration, you need

side and have 100% penetration, you need to install a lot more solar, maybe five

to install a lot more solar, maybe five to six times the amount of solar and you

to six times the amount of solar and you need to install a lot of battery, maybe

need to install a lot of battery, maybe 17 to 20 times the amount of battery

17 to 20 times the amount of battery compared with the output capacity.

compared with the output capacity. Another way of looking at it here is

Another way of looking at it here is that all of that uh striped orange area

that all of that uh striped orange area is stored in batteries and moved to

is stored in batteries and moved to different times of day.

And this is some analysis from Ember which if you don't follow I'd recommend.

which if you don't follow I'd recommend. They have some good thought leadership.

They have some good thought leadership. Um this is based on US costs. So will be

Um this is based on US costs. So will be different in different places depending

different in different places depending on the solar resource, depending on coal

on the solar resource, depending on coal and gas prices. But they're effectively

and gas prices. But they're effectively showing that as of 2024

showing that as of 2024 um you could um produce power for 97% of

um you could um produce power for 97% of the hours in the year with solar and

the hours in the year with solar and battery cheaper than coal. And you could

battery cheaper than coal. And you could produce um cheaper than gas for 60% of

produce um cheaper than gas for 60% of the hours a year. So roughly 14 hours a

the hours a year. So roughly 14 hours a day.

day. And now this is the case study. So this

And now this is the case study. So this is the project that's actually being

is the project that's actually being built. So this was contracted December

built. So this was contracted December last year. Um it received chief

last year. Um it received chief financial close in April this year with

financial close in April this year with $2.7 billion of um Philippine bank

$2.7 billion of um Philippine bank financing. Um as of around June, it was

financing. Um as of around June, it was the biggest solar plant in the

the biggest solar plant in the Philippines. It had around 700 megawatt

Philippines. It had around 700 megawatt installed. Ultimately, it will have

installed. Ultimately, it will have three and a half gigawatts installed.

three and a half gigawatts installed. So, it's over a huge area, 3,500

So, it's over a huge area, 3,500 hectares, about the same size as Pacic

hectares, about the same size as Pacic City for those of you that are in the

City for those of you that are in the Philippines. Um,

Philippines. Um, so this is a kind of world first. I

so this is a kind of world first. I think it's the first project that we're

think it's the first project that we're aware of globally where the um a solar

aware of globally where the um a solar plus battery has outco competed thermal

plus battery has outco competed thermal power um to produce a firm dispatch of

power um to produce a firm dispatch of 14 hours a day during weekdays. Um

14 hours a day during weekdays. Um um and obviously there's some

um and obviously there's some complexities to how you get this done.

complexities to how you get this done. Um I've emphasized on this slide here

Um I've emphasized on this slide here just the sheer scale of deployment.

just the sheer scale of deployment. You're doing 160 megawatts of solar a

You're doing 160 megawatts of solar a month. That's a large plant every month.

month. That's a large plant every month. To do that they had two EPC contractors,

To do that they had two EPC contractors, Power China and Energy China working in

Power China and Energy China working in parallel. Um it was straining the ports

parallel. Um it was straining the ports capacity. They had to look at all seven

capacity. They had to look at all seven ports in Lucon and see which ones could

ports in Lucon and see which ones could could handle all the containers that

could handle all the containers that they were going to be bringing in for

they were going to be bringing in for the solar and battery and and they the

the solar and battery and and they the owners expect up to 20,000 workers on

owners expect up to 20,000 workers on site. So this is a huge huge endeavor

site. So this is a huge huge endeavor but I'm more interested to talk now

but I'm more interested to talk now about you know some of the complexities

about you know some of the complexities of how you would design and um operate

of how you would design and um operate this project. Um

this project. Um so clearly we need to comply with the

so clearly we need to comply with the grid code. Um, what's interesting about

grid code. Um, what's interesting about this project, this isn't this isn't the

this project, this isn't this isn't the only way of using batteries, and it it's

only way of using batteries, and it it's not even always the best way of using

not even always the best way of using batteries, but in this case, you're

batteries, but in this case, you're effectively acting like a thermal power

effectively acting like a thermal power project and meeting the requirements of

project and meeting the requirements of a thermal power project under the grid

a thermal power project under the grid code rather than adapting the grid code

code rather than adapting the grid code to the characteristics of a renewable

to the characteristics of a renewable project. Um, and you're using the

project. Um, and you're using the integration of the batteries to support

integration of the batteries to support voltage control and reactive power

voltage control and reactive power control. you've got uh the power

control. you've got uh the power conversion system. So the inverters

conversion system. So the inverters essentially are grid forming um and

essentially are grid forming um and black starting and they're providing

black starting and they're providing synthetic inertia um and fault ride

synthetic inertia um and fault ride through. So these are much more

through. So these are much more sophisticated inverters than you are

sophisticated inverters than you are typically seeing on PV projects um to be

typically seeing on PV projects um to be able to meet those grid code

able to meet those grid code requirements. Um it's quite a

requirements. Um it's quite a complicated control system. So the

complicated control system. So the SCADAR and the energy management system

SCADAR and the energy management system um have to be able to comply with the

um have to be able to comply with the requirements of the Philippine wholesale

requirements of the Philippine wholesale market and to be able to meet the power

market and to be able to meet the power purchase agreement obligations and the

purchase agreement obligations and the grid code um with good cyber security.

grid code um with good cyber security. Um so it's an unusual application of the

Um so it's an unusual application of the control system and unusual integration.

control system and unusual integration. Um that was quite a tricky part of the

Um that was quite a tricky part of the procurement to get a party that could be

procurement to get a party that could be capable of doing that reliably.

capable of doing that reliably. Um,

Um, I'm running out of time. I'll speed up.

I'm running out of time. I'll speed up. So, maybe just to emphasize on the right

So, maybe just to emphasize on the right here, um, that there's multiple services

here, um, that there's multiple services being provided here. There's time

being provided here. There's time shifting where you're moving the power

shifting where you're moving the power from one time a day to the other, but

from one time a day to the other, but there's also all of these other

there's also all of these other services. And on the last slide, you

services. And on the last slide, you know, more same issues, but looking more

know, more same issues, but looking more from a market lens. Um, and I'm happy to

from a market lens. Um, and I'm happy to take questions on this afterwards, but

take questions on this afterwards, but effectively, um, How do you make this

effectively, um, How do you make this bankable? You know, this received

bankable? You know, this received non-reourse project finance from the

non-reourse project finance from the lenders on the assurance that they would

lenders on the assurance that they would get paid back for their loan because

get paid back for their loan because they're firming the revenues and we can

they're firming the revenues and we can we can talk about how that was done as

we can talk about how that was done as part of the questions if that's of

part of the questions if that's of interest. Okay. Thank you.

interest. Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you from your commercial

>> Thank you from your commercial presentation. Mr. Phillip, I open for

presentation. Mr. Phillip, I open for the Q&A. Is there any question for the

the Q&A. Is there any question for the participant?

>> Thank you for insightful presentation. My name is Muhammad Hazati from um

My name is Muhammad Hazati from um National University of Singapore Center

National University of Singapore Center for International Law. Um my question is

for International Law. Um my question is not about market I mean based but

not about market I mean based but environmental I mean perspective and I'm

environmental I mean perspective and I'm wondering um what is the typical

wondering um what is the typical lifespan for these um solar panels and

lifespan for these um solar panels and maybe win turbines and even battery

maybe win turbines and even battery storageages and um whether or not those

storageages and um whether or not those countries or in your case the

countries or in your case the Philippines from now on is thinking

Philippines from now on is thinking about the waste management at the end of

about the waste management at the end of their lifespan.

Yeah, great question. So, um the product warranty on the PV modules for example

warranty on the PV modules for example is 20 25 years. Typically, we extend see

is 20 25 years. Typically, we extend see the life of these panels extended. So,

the life of these panels extended. So, when these projects are financed from

when these projects are financed from the equity side, they're normally

the equity side, they're normally looking at cash flows over 30 or 40

looking at cash flows over 30 or 40 years. Um um so there's a long potential

years. Um um so there's a long potential life on that equipment. they might get

life on that equipment. they might get replaced ahead of that if the

replaced ahead of that if the technologies improved so much that it

technologies improved so much that it makes sense to use that space with a

makes sense to use that space with a higher production technology. So that's

higher production technology. So that's that's a consideration. Um for the

that's a consideration. Um for the batteries um their life is significantly

batteries um their life is significantly shorter and so there will be

shorter and so there will be augmentation or replacement of the

augmentation or replacement of the batteries during the life. It depends on

batteries during the life. It depends on how much you cycle them but you could

how much you cycle them but you could say around 10 years as the average life.

say around 10 years as the average life. The good thing about the batteries is

The good thing about the batteries is they can mostly be recycled and it's

they can mostly be recycled and it's cost effective to do so. And a lot of

cost effective to do so. And a lot of the projections of lithium mining um are

the projections of lithium mining um are based on the fact that once you have a

based on the fact that once you have a certain critical mass of batteries in

certain critical mass of batteries in the market being installed and reused,

the market being installed and reused, the mining um requirements go down

the mining um requirements go down because you're just recycling um um the

because you're just recycling um um the minerals that are already in use. Um PV

minerals that are already in use. Um PV module is much trickier from a recycling

module is much trickier from a recycling perspective. It's not um a revenue

perspective. It's not um a revenue earner to recycle. So it's a cost. Um

earner to recycle. So it's a cost. Um most countries in Assan do not require

most countries in Assan do not require uh decommissioning reserves. So you

uh decommissioning reserves. So you don't have to save money for the end of

don't have to save money for the end of life to to um to pay to recycle the

life to to um to pay to recycle the modules. So at this point in time the

modules. So at this point in time the modules go to landfill. Um I expect as

modules go to landfill. Um I expect as um recycling methods improve and as

um recycling methods improve and as regulation advances there will be

regulation advances there will be requirements on owners to um to recycle

requirements on owners to um to recycle at end of life. Whether those will be

at end of life. Whether those will be applied retrospectively or just for new

applied retrospectively or just for new projects is a question for regulators.

projects is a question for regulators. But we are seeing in more advanced

But we are seeing in more advanced economies there is a requirement to

economies there is a requirement to recycle at least part of the components

recycle at least part of the components of the PV module. Um um yeah and on wind

of the PV module. Um um yeah and on wind turbines they're also designed for at

turbines they're also designed for at least a 20 year life and we typically

least a 20 year life and we typically see that extended as well again say to

see that extended as well again say to 30 years. Generally the energy payback

30 years. Generally the energy payback on all of this equipment is very low. Um

on all of this equipment is very low. Um depending on what uh alternative source

depending on what uh alternative source of fuel you're displacing. So if it's

of fuel you're displacing. So if it's coal fire or gas fire, you'd get

coal fire or gas fire, you'd get different um uh periods of payback, but

different um uh periods of payback, but you're generally talking less than a

you're generally talking less than a year in terms of the paying back the

year in terms of the paying back the embedded carbon uh in the manufacturing

embedded carbon uh in the manufacturing of this equipment. So from a purely a

of this equipment. So from a purely a kind of carbon footprint perspective,

kind of carbon footprint perspective, it's not so much of a concern. But from

it's not so much of a concern. But from a overall waste management cons

a overall waste management cons perspective, there's obviously it's

perspective, there's obviously it's working. There is things to work on

working. There is things to work on there.

Okay. Thank you. We have another question.

>> Hello. Good afternoon. Uh I'm from the Philippines as well. So I'm just curious

Philippines as well. So I'm just curious on how did you identify this area? It

on how did you identify this area? It was actually you showed that it's you're

was actually you showed that it's you're going to um install solar PV in northern

going to um install solar PV in northern Philippines which is the Nova EA if I'm

Philippines which is the Nova EA if I'm not mistaken. I'm actually from the

not mistaken. I'm actually from the southern part of the Philippines.

southern part of the Philippines. >> Additional land um there was uh quite a

>> Additional land um there was uh quite a lot of this land was unproductive

lot of this land was unproductive agricultural land that had been was no

agricultural land that had been was no longer in use. It would be how local

longer in use. It would be how local stakeholders would be affected. We

stakeholders would be affected. We weren't personally involved in that, so

weren't personally involved in that, so I don't have a lot of the details on

I don't have a lot of the details on that side of things. I think it's it's a

that side of things. I think it's it's a genuine um concern with solar that it

genuine um concern with solar that it has a large land take. Um where

has a large land take. Um where possible, you would install on rooftops,

possible, you would install on rooftops, you'd install on reservoirs, the

you'd install on reservoirs, the floating solar. Um

floating solar. Um you know if we talk about the the

you know if we talk about the the projects that will bring power into

projects that will bring power into Singapore right the solar and battery

Singapore right the solar and battery projects that are going to use subc

projects that are going to use subc cables to come into Singapore that have

cables to come into Singapore that have been licensed you know those probably

been licensed you know those probably together equate to around 30% of the

together equate to around 30% of the land area of Singapore that will be

land area of Singapore that will be installed with solar panels on the Rio

installed with solar panels on the Rio islands in Indonesia right so you know

islands in Indonesia right so you know the I think whenever you do any of these

the I think whenever you do any of these projects same for hydrop power same for

projects same for hydrop power same for transmission lines you know you've got

transmission lines you know you've got to look at the the impacts inms in terms

to look at the the impacts inms in terms of biodiversity in terms of local

of biodiversity in terms of local communities and understand whether those

communities and understand whether those uh can be managed for that particular

uh can be managed for that particular site environment. Yeah, a lot of these

site environment. Yeah, a lot of these projects are being um debt financed by

projects are being um debt financed by multilateral institutions and commercial

multilateral institutions and commercial banks that have signed up to the equator

banks that have signed up to the equator principles and so these issues are

principles and so these issues are looked at in quite some detail before

looked at in quite some detail before accepting a project in a given area.

>> Okay, thank you. I think it's uh enough. Uh thank you uh Mr. Philip for your

Uh thank you uh Mr. Philip for your comprehensive presentation and

comprehensive presentation and discussion. Uh give a round of applause

discussion. Uh give a round of applause for Mr. Phillip. Okay. I think we have

for Mr. Phillip. Okay. I think we have uh the last presenter uh Mr. Michael

uh the last presenter uh Mr. Michael Bound Samson Graio.

Bound Samson Graio. Okay. Okay. Uh you will present

Okay. Okay. Uh you will present characterization of wave energy in

characterization of wave energy in Newton loon Philippines using del 3D

Newton loon Philippines using del 3D wave.

wave. Yeah. Uh the time is yours sir.

Yeah. Uh the time is yours sir. So hello good good afternoon it's me

So hello good good afternoon it's me again. So um the first presentation was

again. So um the first presentation was the phase two of my study and this one

the phase two of my study and this one is the first one. So before doing the

is the first one. So before doing the site suitability analysis um we need to

site suitability analysis um we need to characterize the um the significant wave

characterize the um the significant wave height and wave period of the ocean. So

height and wave period of the ocean. So uh for the Philippine energy sector, the

uh for the Philippine energy sector, the current challenges is that um the fossil

current challenges is that um the fossil fuel dependence of the Philippines is

fuel dependence of the Philippines is still at 67.4%

still at 67.4% and the demand growth of electricity

and the demand growth of electricity consumption is still 5.7 5.7% annually.

consumption is still 5.7 5.7% annually. So the goals of the Philippine

So the goals of the Philippine government is that 35% re target by 2030

government is that 35% re target by 2030 and more than 50% by 2050. and the

and more than 50% by 2050. and the opportunities that the Philippines is is

opportunities that the Philippines is is composed of um 7,600

composed of um 7,600 islands and ocean energy or wave energy

islands and ocean energy or wave energy is very vast on the Philippines.

So the wave energy status in the Philippines as mentioned in the previous

Philippines as mentioned in the previous um presentation kash um atal in 2018 um

um presentation kash um atal in 2018 um excluded um Philippines in East Asia it

excluded um Philippines in East Asia it only included China, Japan, Korea and

only included China, Japan, Korea and Taiwan. Although in the Philippines

Taiwan. Although in the Philippines there are nine awarded projects of ocean

there are nine awarded projects of ocean energy currently and eight of those are

energy currently and eight of those are tidal energy and then seven of those are

tidal energy and then seven of those are in pre-development or in papers and then

in pre-development or in papers and then one of them is under on the development

one of them is under on the development stage already and then one of them is

stage already and then one of them is the OTH but the question is why there is

the OTH but the question is why there is no wave energy so maybe um there are no

no wave energy so maybe um there are no studies on the characterization of wave

studies on the characterization of wave energy in the Philippines CF during this

energy in the Philippines CF during this period.

period. So the objective of this study is to

So the objective of this study is to characterize the regional 10-year wave

characterize the regional 10-year wave climate in northern Luzon, Philippines

climate in northern Luzon, Philippines to assess the wave energy potential. And

to assess the wave energy potential. And one of the recommendations on the

one of the recommendations on the previous study is to conduct longer

previous study is to conduct longer simulations. So up to 10 years. So most

simulations. So up to 10 years. So most of the studies conducted only one year.

of the studies conducted only one year. So this study will try to model the wave

So this study will try to model the wave climate for 10 years. So the data that

climate for 10 years. So the data that is needed is first is the bimetry data

is needed is first is the bimetry data which came from the JCO 2023. We also

which came from the JCO 2023. We also need an input data from wind. Um it was

need an input data from wind. Um it was taken from Pagasa and the ERA 5. And

taken from Pagasa and the ERA 5. And then we also need a wave data for the

then we also need a wave data for the boundary conditions that is taken from

boundary conditions that is taken from the Namaria. All of these three data

the Namaria. All of these three data will be input to the Del 3D software

will be input to the Del 3D software which is based on an IEC62600

which is based on an IEC62600 methodology and then the output of the

methodology and then the output of the model will be post-processed in MATLAB

model will be post-processed in MATLAB and the output will just be a regional

and the output will just be a regional wave climate in northern Luzon which is

wave climate in northern Luzon which is a data um for significant wave height

a data um for significant wave height wave period and the wave energy density.

So these are sample results of the wave modeling outputs of Del 3D wave. So

modeling outputs of Del 3D wave. So what's amazing in Del 3D wave is is that

what's amazing in Del 3D wave is is that it give us maps um specially and

it give us maps um specially and temporarily. So it can provide us um

temporarily. So it can provide us um maps for every second, every minute

maps for every second, every minute depending on the setting that we put in

depending on the setting that we put in the model.

the model. And overall the average wave

And overall the average wave characteristics of the northern leon is

characteristics of the northern leon is that for the

for the significant wave height we have here um from 2 m to up to 3 something m

here um from 2 m to up to 3 something m 3.2 m and meanwhile for the wave period

3.2 m and meanwhile for the wave period it is from 4.8 to 5.8 seconds. So this

it is from 4.8 to 5.8 seconds. So this is the 10-year average of the whole

is the 10-year average of the whole area. So the wave energy is that

area. So the wave energy is that um we can see here that the closer you

um we can see here that the closer you get to the island, the lower the wave

get to the island, the lower the wave energy densities, but based on the first

energy densities, but based on the first presentation uh a while ago, um the most

presentation uh a while ago, um the most suitable areas are the ones closer to

suitable areas are the ones closer to the islands. So the difference is that

the islands. So the difference is that um the first presentation um considered

um the first presentation um considered already some of the criterias not only

already some of the criterias not only this wave energy densities.

this wave energy densities. So in conclusion the wave climate

So in conclusion the wave climate characteristics of northern Lon

characteristics of northern Lon Philippines has been successfully

Philippines has been successfully modeled using the Del 3D wave software.

modeled using the Del 3D wave software. The results show that the re re region

The results show that the re re region has an annual significant wave height

has an annual significant wave height ranging from 1.9 to 3.07 07 m and wave

ranging from 1.9 to 3.07 07 m and wave periods of 4.8 to 5.8 seconds.

periods of 4.8 to 5.8 seconds. Crucially, the annual wave energy

Crucially, the annual wave energy density range from 5 to 12 jewles per

density range from 5 to 12 jewles per square meter. And these significant

square meter. And these significant energy densities underscore that

energy densities underscore that northern Luzon's viability for wave

northern Luzon's viability for wave energy deployment. And for the

energy deployment. And for the recommendations um first is the detailed

recommendations um first is the detailed site assessment and resource mapping

site assessment and resource mapping which included the site suitability

which included the site suitability analysis and then again the technology

analysis and then again the technology selection policy development and

selection policy development and environmental and community engagement.

environmental and community engagement. Thank you.

Thank you. >> Thank you for your presentation. Yeah,

>> Thank you for your presentation. Yeah, that's the continuation from the

that's the continuation from the previous presentation Mr. Michael. Thank

previous presentation Mr. Michael. Thank you. I will open for the question. Yeah,

you. I will open for the question. Yeah, please.

Okay, thank you. So I'm not coming from engineering background. So my question

engineering background. So my question is more into the climate change aspect

is more into the climate change aspect of this of your research. So um did you

of this of your research. So um did you factor in climate change um risk in your

factor in climate change um risk in your modeling or characterization? because I

modeling or characterization? because I believe that in the coming years the

believe that in the coming years the wave probably becomes more um the wave

wave probably becomes more um the wave energy increase and sometimes it become

energy increase and sometimes it become catastrophic. So it probably will affect

catastrophic. So it probably will affect um whatever technology that will deploy

um whatever technology that will deploy it later on. So yeah that is my

it later on. So yeah that is my question.

question. >> Um actually this study did not include

>> Um actually this study did not include that. However, um one of the

that. However, um one of the recommendations from my advisor is that

recommendations from my advisor is that um I might consider their u modeling it

um I might consider their u modeling it for 30 years in order for me to see the

for 30 years in order for me to see the effect of climate change.

effect of climate change. >> Okay. Then so that's the recommendation.

>> Okay. Then so that's the recommendation. So factory like climate scenario.

So factory like climate scenario. >> Yes. Climate scenarios and longer time

>> Yes. Climate scenarios and longer time period in order to see the ends of for

period in order to see the ends of for 30 years.

30 years. >> Okay. At least 30 years. Yep. Thank you.

>> Okay. At least 30 years. Yep. Thank you. >> Thank you. You have another question.

Okay. If not, if you have any further question, you can have another uh

question, you can have another uh discussion with uh directly with Mr. um

discussion with uh directly with Mr. um Michael. Okay. Thank you. Give a round

Michael. Okay. Thank you. Give a round of applause for the Mr. Michael for the

of applause for the Mr. Michael for the operation presentation. So yeah uh this

operation presentation. So yeah uh this is the end of uh session of the last

is the end of uh session of the last presenter for this room. So after this

presenter for this room. So after this we will have a lunch uh in if not

we will have a lunch uh in if not mistaken in upstairs

mistaken in upstairs uh not sure yeah we maybe we also have

uh not sure yeah we maybe we also have information later uh from the organizer.

information later uh from the organizer. Um yeah and we have we will have a next

Um yeah and we have we will have a next session in uh 2:15 uh in this room. Uh

session in uh 2:15 uh in this room. Uh okay thank you. Enjoy your lunch.

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