The content emphasizes that individuals have the power to make choices that lead to a more joyful and fulfilling life, stressing the importance of self-care and authentic expression in both personal and creative endeavors. It suggests that true creativity and impact stem from being true to oneself, rather than conforming to external expectations or outcomes.
Mind Map
คลิกเพื่อขยาย
คลิกเพื่อสำรวจ Mind Map แบบอินเตอร์แอคทีฟฉบับเต็ม
we are in control of our own lives we
often don't realize we're in control but
we're in control of our own lives and we can
can
make different choices and if the things
in our life are not bringing us joy and
happiness if our career that we've
devoted all of our Lives to isn't
bringing us joy we can change them if we
decide our relationship is not the right
relationship we don't have to suffer in
that relationship
we have our own power and we can make a
change and it takes courage
um but it's in everyone's best interest
for us to take care of ourselves to be
in a relationship or in a job where
you're phoning it in because you think
it's your responsibility to do the job
there's probably someone who would do
that job with passion and bring more to
it than you are in your relationship if
you've fallen out of love
and you're going through the motions
you're not doing anyone any favors
it's not real and um and if you feel
depressed and you can't manage the life
you're in you can go move to another
part of the world you can live on a
beach you know you can you can
there's so many options available to us
that we don't you know we're stuck in
our small story of who we are and what
our lives are and
it's all a choice and we have the power
to change it anything anything in our
lives that doesn't give us joy
we can change and we can find the
version that that suits us and it's not
only in service to us it's ultimately
what's best for everyone you know when
you're on an airplane and they say if
the plane's going to go down these uh
masks are going to fall down put your
mask on first before you put on your
child's or anyone else's which is
counter-intuitive we always think we
take care of our children first
but if you're not taking care of
yourself you can't take care of anyone else
else
so I would say primarily take care of
yourself first if you want to save the
world save yourself
and then save your immediate family and
then save your immediate uh neighborhood
and then save your you know your um your town
town
start with small circles and build out
do you know meta meditation The Meta
meditation is uh might be filled with
loving kindness may I be well may I be
peaceful and at ease may I be happy we
repeat these four phrases over and over
again and for the first year or so of
doing it it's May I
and then after a year of May I we've
built up a strong enough charge to say
may we and the we might be your
immediate family first and you do that
for another year and build up the power
in that unit
and then you can extend it and by the
fifth year you can do it for the planet
but you can't do it for the planet first
because there's no built up charge so do
what's necessary to take care of
yourself build yourself up have the
strongest charge possible
that you could then share and make the
world a better place
we can live in a way where we're living
in an Artful way where we're uh
engaged and paying attention and um
making each choice count or we can live
in a
almost like sleepwalking through the day
which many many of us do
many of us do just
go along
yeah just you know repeat yesterday again
again
um and
I suppose the principal argument of the
book although it didn't set out to be
this way is that um
is that the way we choose to live in the world
impacts our ability to
to [Music]
[Music] um
um
to make more beautiful things it's it's
um it's less about
the making and more the being
and through the being
it's like a reverberation of it it's not
it's not the it's not the primary yeah I
didn't know that before starting the
book honestly it came through the
process of trying to understand how uh
uh [Music]
[Music]
how decisions
um have been made over the course of my
life that yielded good results creatively
creatively um
and it revealed itself through the
process of the book
I think it's very rare that I picked up
a book that has
resonated with me I would say on a deep
visceral level
as quickly as yours has
I think it's maybe the time in my life
the way I'm
experiencing it what I'm looking for at
the moment
but what really strikes him as
interesting is on the surface
surface
it kind of seems as though it's a book
about art
but actually it seems more to me
about being a book about
yes I would agree
you have been involved with the curating of
of
many music albums over the course of
your career some of the most famous
albums on the planet what was it like
working on a book
compared to working on music
felt felt very much out of my depth
with music I've done it long enough where
where
um I have a sense I want to say I have a
sense of how it works even though it's
still this magic process that I that we
have no control over
but because of you know 35 or 40 Years
of doing it uh
uh
it's not a total unknown
whereas the book was much more of an
unknown stepping into it and I've never
put out anything with my name on the
front of it before I'm always the you
know I'm essentially an invisible coach
sometimes people know about my
involvement but I'm a behind the scenes
uh participant in the projects that I am
in this is the first time that
it's actually me and I'm the person
talking about it usually the works that
I work on
I rarely talk about them because the
person whose name's on the front of the
record talks about them
so it's been an interesting different
experience and um
um and and
and and
finding words
to explain something that I don't know
can be explained and that I don't I
don't fully understand it's difficult
yeah that's where I think very evasive
you know it's like what I'm I'm
describing smoke and it's hard to
describe smoke
I think
that's where the magic for me in this
book is you
I guess you're writing about an
experience you're writing about the way
you have experienced art the way you see
art through your lens you you have
possibly the best opening to any book
ever nothing in this book is known to be
true it's a reflection and what I've
I love love it so so much
and I think one of the reasons
I like that opening so much is you know
I've been a practicing medical doctor
for 21 years now as we're having this
conversation Rick
and the more patients I see the more
people I'm able to help the more I realize
realize
I don't actually know that much
and some of the best clinicians and
doctors I've met
also share the same view like this you
know the more I know the more I realize
I just don't know and I'm always open to be
be
I'm always open to being surprised by
something a patient tells me or
something a patient experiences and actually
actually
I think there are so many similarities
between art the way you describe it in
your book and Medicine the way I like to
practice it
which is I think what is drawing me to
it so much
that's beautiful I didn't know that and
that really lands with me in a great in
a great way I hope there are more people
in the medical field who have have that feeling
you use the term invisible coach before
yeah which I think is a really beautiful
way of thinking about certainly what
I've read about you I've consumed as a
fan many of the albums you've been
involved with some of them have played
huge parts of my youth growing up at
and I was thinking well how can Rick can
do hip-hop and rock and Metal
and whatever genre you are helping that
now how do you help an artist to be
themselves if the artists themselves
doesn't know who they really are
sometimes they they uh they often don't
know who they are
and they often tell you who they are
without knowing they're telling you who
they are okay so through through really
through conversation
I imagine very similar to do you spend
when you when you get a new patient
if you spend time talking to them
absolutely okay and I imagine they tell
you things that
light up for you as okay I know what's
going on here yeah yeah when they're
telling it to you they have no idea yeah
it's exactly the same it's exactly the
same if I if you really listen
people tell you what they need
what they want what their dreams are and
they'll tell you I don't know what I
want I don't know what my dreams are I
don't know who I am and then they tell
you exactly this is who I am this is
what my dreams are but it but they're um
it's almost like sometimes we're too close
close
we're too close to be able to see
ourselves it's very difficult to see
ourselves it's funny just a few hours
ago I had a conversation with the chap
Called Bruce Lipton who wrote the book
the biology of belief
and it was a wonderful conversation and
Bruce talks about the conscious mind of
the subconscious mind and how 95 of our
lives are driven by our subconscious patterns
but what really connects with what you
were just saying there is we were
talking about how
we can see those patterns in other
people very clearly you can see in our
partner yes and our children and our
friends you're just like your mum you're
just like your dad but it's not so easy
to see it ourselves is it no no it's too
close and same same goes in in working
on things it's
um when we're creating something we we
can get into it to a point of
tunnel vision
to where through the singular focus of
working on it we lose perspective on
so it's something that that's helped that
that
artist an artist who writes their own
material might find helpful to have
they
they might be too close to it to truly
see what it is yeah
um and and it's helpful to have someone
say when I when I read these lyrics this
makes me feel this is that what you're
is that
and sometimes they'll say no not at all
not at all not only no not at all but if
that's what you got from it I have to
change it yeah
and other times it'll be yes that's
exactly what it means that's what I want
it to be and sometimes it's
no that's not what it means but it
doesn't but that's fine too you know
it's it really
each case depends on um there's no right
or wrong in any in any of these art decisions
decisions
an outside Source mirroring back what's
going on and it either resonates or not
did you have an invisible coach to help
you with your work in this book
because it sounds like that's what you
offer to other people
because as you just be beautifully said
we we can get too close to the work yeah
um so did you have people around you to
help you
maintain that perspective and distance
absolutely I had people helping along
the way in different capacities
um ultimately at the end of the project
Scott who's the editor at penguin press
in New York was really helpful in the
final touches of what worked and what didn't
didn't
um but all through the process
started working with
one writer and then working with another
I ended up working with many people over
the course of the seven years of working
on the book and
and
it went through lots of um
changes in iterations on the way
to get where where it is but it it
really helps to have
have uh
people who know more than you do about
the thing that you're working on help
has that been your experience with books
how is how has it worked yeah um
um
and the funny thing is well a couple of
things come up for me as I say that if
you'd ask me
seven years ago
do you have a book in you I might have
said yeah I think I've got one
I think I've got one book in me yes and
what I've learned through this process
of writing a book a year for the past
five years I can't imagine that well you
say that but you've got I guess you've
done that in your field in music right
you've probably helped so it's I guess
whenever it's in a different field we we
see it differently but
and I want to talk about deadlines and
all kinds of things because it all sort
of plays in um
um
but I've I've come to the belief that
humans are infinitely creative yes and
that when I finish one book and I've
it's gone off to print and I've done a
round of interviews on it
I feel like I've I've solidified those
thoughts I've shared them in the world
and then I've empty the space in my
brain Forks
new ideas are coming and then I'm
suddenly seeing new ideas fantastic everywhere
everywhere
but if you'd asked me a few years ago I
said no I can't I've just got one I've
got nothing else to share but in terms
of your question Rick
one of the things I've learned I
remember the first time I sent an edit
into penguin I thought yeah I'm happy
with this and
came back with all these comments
comments
um not clear this that happened
initially I think I found it hard and
that's probably an ego thing and what
I've learned over the last few years is
that you know these edits are great
they're absolutely fantastic you don't
have to agree with them all but don't be
attached to your idea too much just
listen to what people have to say then
really tune in and go actually
do you agree is it helpful so I've had a
I've had a love hate relationship with
feedback I think it's I think it's in a
good place now but I think the problems
I initially faced if I'm honest and I do
have a tendency to be a bit
self-critical but I think they were to
do with ego
what is it like for you when you receive
comments about some of the work that
you've worked on some of the words that
you've written um I'm
um I'm
open to hearing them and um
in in every case it seemed to lead to it
getting better yeah
I would agree with that because even if
you don't necessarily agree yeah even
the thought process and going why don't
I agree well oh yeah but actually
there's an element of Truth there which
resonates so I and there's a big theme
in the book is you talk about art being collaborative
but you must have come across ego I imagine
imagine
in your career
have you come across ego and how have
you managed it um
um absolutely
absolutely
think part of the
secret of collaborating with someone
who's uh has an inflated ego which is
comes along with the territory of you
know if you go on stage in front of 20
000 people screaming for you every day
yeah you can that can fill you up [Music]
[Music] um
I think a lot of uh having critical
serious critical conversations has to do
with taking the person out of it
and um talk about it in the book The
the more the comments or the more
specific and um
um
external they are
so we're talking about a song If I say
your words aren't good enough that's
really a personal affront yeah
but if we have the lyrics out here we're
looking at the lyrics together
and the idea is together we're going to
look at this and see is there anything
that either of us can see that can make
this better
it's different it's like we move it and
and we get very specific and it's not
your lyrics it's these lyrics you know
um or whatever it is that the more that
it's outside of us
if someone tells you an idea and you say
I don't like that idea that's person
that's personal yeah
but if someone makes a model of
something and you say well I like this
but I don't like this you're you're
talking about a model you're not talking
about the person
and by the way none of it's personal
that's that's the important part is
making it clear
we're working together for the best
thing to occur and none of it's personal
we're on the same team
and we're working together on behalf of
this outside object yeah
that same principle applies in relationships
relationships
as as well as making art doesn't it if
it's not personal if it's just about the
thought or
um the thing that you're discussing and
you can make it non-personal it's going
to have a much more productive outcome
even with ourselves you know how we how
we speak to ourselves yeah
yeah
I remember when I um I was sedentary
most of my life and I weighed uh 100
pounds more than I do now
and when I first
um met this group of athletes who
invited me to train with them which was
Radical I lost a bunch of weight and
they invited me to train with them foreign
foreign
I remember they showed me an exercise
and I said I can't do that and they say
no never say you can't do it say I
haven't done it yet
I haven't done it yet and that's true
with everything it's like there's
nothing that you can't do you may not
have done it yet
we don't know if you can do it or not
until you really practice and then you
find out if you can do it or not or how
well you can do it yeah
I want to talk later on this
conversation about your physical
transformation because I
I think it's incredibly fascinating
there's so many different strands and
the way we talk to ourselves which
you've just hinted out there
there was a bit in the book where you
were talking about
feeling insecure maybe doubting yourself
versus doubting yeah which I thought was
a a beautiful distinction and then then
you wrote this gorgeous bit which is
basically insecurity
is only a hindrance
when it stops you sharing what's in your
heart wow that's beautiful it's funny I
I told you I don't really know what's in
the book because over seven years all
the information came out
but it's not it's even when I was
working on it's not things that I
necessarily know yeah it is beautiful
and beautiful
it's one of those phrases I've
underlined I've written it in my
notebook because I feel at this moment
in my life Rick
think about that a lot I think about
art I think about the expression of
ideas and
once you start trying to
do something for an outcome yes
yes
I think I've experienced in the past
that that's where the problems start to
rise you start to fracture
the core of who you are and I think you
can be successful by a societal metric
of success
but in the process
a part of you starts to weather in sight
yes uh so I I think that is so so
as a research you Rick that one of the
big ideas that comes up is that you talk about
about
how you can't make art if you're
thinking about the outcome or you're
thinking about business are you thinking
about how many copies it's going to sell
or what are the audience going to think
have you always had that perspective on
arts or is that something you've
developed through experience I've always
had it and um I think it's because it
started as a hobby and I never in a way
I never took it seriously in one way I
took it more serious than anything else
in terms of the making of the art but I
never took it seriously in terms of it
being a commercial thing ever at any
point from the beginning it was always
you know the Hope was that it would sell
enough to be able to make another one
that's all it ever was it was you know
very um
meager expectations
I always thought I'd have a real job
and then I would make music because
that's what I love to do and I thought
well I have a job and that would support
my music habit I never understood that
it could be I didn't even know it could
be a job
do you consider a real job now
yes and no I mean I I it has worked out
that I haven't had to do anything else
so I guess and I have an incredibly
beautiful life um
and I suppose based on the fact that
I have a schedule and I'm obligated to
show up so I have commitments it is a
job yeah that said
when I'm there there's nothing more fun
than seeing something appear that wasn't
there before yeah and um The Wonder of
it because again I I don't feel in
control of the process I don't think
anyone has control of the process I
think there's truly magic going on we
can set the stage to best support it to
happen yeah but we can't make it happen
and um it's it's uh it's it's thrilling
when it does and and I and I also you
know one of the things I say in the book
is the audience comes last and the
audience comes last not because I don't
care about them or I don't like the audience
audience
in in service to the audience they have
to come last
the I the thing that the audience wants
is the best thing they can get if we're
if we're trying to make it for them it
won't be the best thing it can get it'll
water it down it'll the process of
making something for someone else
undermines it
this is something I've learned through
I mean there's so much
that I've learned in the last four and a
half nearly five years of putting this
but one of the things I've deeply deeply
learned is that
I will choose every guest and I will
choose it based on my curiosity
and I remember talking to my team about
this a few months ago and said look
people are wanting this people wanting
that people want this guest
and I take that very seriously it's not
that I'm disregarding that
but if I'm going to be truly authentic
and true to myself and therefore true to them
them
I've learned that actually no wrong and
you have to almost selfishly choose the
guests yes the
the
excite you that awakens something inside
of you that you passionately want to sit
there for two hours with and go deep with
with
because otherwise the audience will will
hear it if you've just rolled it out
you've got the right guest you've said
the right things I remember saying on a
podcast a few years ago when I was a
guest on someone else's show and it just
came out of me I said
although I'm a medical doctor and people
consider this a health podcast in many
ways which I think is very limiting anyway
anyway um
um
my podcast is not an information
delivery system
it's about authenticity if I can connect
with my guests
that's all I'm looking for is a deep
connection and any information any
helpful information will kind of spit
out as a side effect of that connection
yes and I don't think I recognize that
when I started podcasting but the more I've
I've
worked on and hopefully got better at
the skill Affairs I passionately believe
that that's the case it sounds right it
sounds right and um and it's been the
case that people like what you're doing
so it's a good sign
do you always know in the moment when
you're in a studio with a band of solo
artists and something magical's happening
happening
do you always know in the moment not
always yeah no not always just had an
interesting experience to tell you about it
it
um just before coming to Europe I was in
uh Malibu for a few weeks and I made a
new album with Neil Young Neil Young and
Crazy Horse
and it was unlike any experience I've
ever had before in the recording studio
and I've had a lot of experiences in the
recording studio but this was really unusual
unusual
and um I don't know how much you know
about Crazy Horse but Neil has played
with Crazy Horse for 50 years the band
the band members are all turning 80 next
year but Neil is not uh I think Neil
I think Neil's 76 or 77 not sure
um but the band members all turned 80. and
and
they're not
um like Studio musicians they're not
like crack musicians they have a sound
that's their sound and it's couldn't be
more authentic it's they when they play
it sounds like them um
but in terms of like learning the
material it doesn't just happen
instantaneously like Studio musicians
barely even need to hear it and they can
play it and it's perfect that that's not
the case with with Crazy Horse
and we played through songs for the
first week and I will say it was rough
uh rough to the point of
not only did we not get the recordings
that that um
who were
the the basis of a great album but
it was a question of whether they would
ever be able to play the songs that's
how how far off it seemed
and um and we so the first week is a
slow week and but they play through all
the songs as I say poorly but we but we
get through the week and now I'm
thinking okay maybe next week now that
they've played them one time when we
come back it's going to be better the
next time
and uh and Neil suggests what song to
start with on the next Monday we're back
fresh new week and um
and the drummer Ralph so we already
played that one
and uh and and it was a remarkable
moment because
um they did play it but it was uh in a
very um
um
unclear form yeah and then we spent the
next week playing the songs again and um
most of them did not get better in some
cases they got worse and it was again fascinating
fascinating
and then Neil suggested you know let's
listen back to the songs from that first
week which in the moment seemed nowhere near
near close
close
and we listened through and then it's
like well this moment is really good and
and
if this part didn't have this mistake
we don't know like the distract the
mistake is a distraction distracts us to
think it's no good but it's really this
mistake let's repair the mistake
and we kind of went through it and did
not much
and then listen back and say hmm it's
much better than we thought and and now
the album The album's done I think it's
beautiful I love it I really love it and
Neil loves it and knows it's special
and um and I think pretty much every one
of the tracks was recorded in that first
week when at the moment it seemed like I
don't know if they'll ever be able to
play these yeah it's unbelievable
it's incredible to hear that especially
with such
an experience producer and experience and
and um
um
I wonder what that is is it a bit like
I'm sure you went through this through
the writing process when
you've written a chapter
and yeah you're not sure
I don't know and then when you read a
few paragraphs that I'm not sure I'm
getting my idea out there the way I
wanted to is it clear enough and then
you just remove one sentence or you just
remove one from this paragraph one from
that paragraph then oh now it's singing
now it's humming now it's purring
beautifully yes is it a bit like that
absolutely you can yeah sometimes
removing the distractions
falls into place and and I can also say
the opposite is true in the studio where
we'll be working and trudging along and
it seems mediocre and then all of a
sudden it gets good and everyone looks
at each other like
something's happening you know and we
you feel it in the moment that that's
actually more common yeah feeling it in
the moment and recognizing something
special is happening
um but this was a really interesting
case because it was the furthest extreme
in the opposite direction that I've ever
experienced yeah and what's interesting
for me uh
as someone hearing that story is
you're constantly being surprised
all your years of experience and
knowledge and then even even you are
getting surprised all the time daily I'm
surprised daily yeah and there's another
quote I was going to talk to you about which
which um
um
I nearly brought up when you were
chatting about writing the book because
you said I think you were talking about
essentially it being out of your comfort
zone it was unusual for you to be
writing yourself putting your name on
the front
and again I maybe because I'm just
started writing book six at the moment
um but I love this Beware of the
assumption that the way you work is the
best way simply because it's the way
you've done it before yeah beautiful yeah
yeah
yeah there is no right way and um
sometimes when we do something and find
success in the way we've done it we
think that's the way it works
yeah but it's rarely the only way
and that and it could quickly become a
limiting belief
if you start making things that all
start seeming very similar yeah
so opening it up to trying a completely
different way using a different palette um
um
collaborating with different people um
um
so in so many different ways in
being open to
if you're a rock band maybe the acoustic
version is interesting you know we don't
yeah if you if you're used to playing loud
loud
you don't think the quiet version could
be good but you never know it's like
let's let's turn over all the stones
let's see what's possible there's
another similarity here between
art and Medicine
and well I guess my view on medicine
more and more is that for most
of the cases I see
helping a patient to
get better whatever that means yes
I'm convinced now more than ever that
it's more art than science yes
I understand for a very acute case
um or you know you need a heart
operation like I know you've spoken
about publicly before you need a super
skilled surgeon who can go in and do
what's necessary I understand that
but for the bulk of things that people
are complaining of these days
I think the job of a healthcare
professional or a medical doctor like myself
myself
is to be like you are to your artist an
invisible coach right reflect back to
them help them realize that they've got more
more
autonomy more control more influence on
their health than they think yes but
also realize that what you've just said
that there is no one right way like I
can see 10 different people
with symptoms of inadverted commas depression
depression
and there may well be 10 different ways yes
yes
to help those 10 people and actually the
same person
you may be able to get them better in
five different ways yes
so I it's funny you know I
the the book
it ain't just about making records it's
not about writing books it's also about
seeing patience it's about
I think you say somewhere that it's
about you know art and creativity is
actually about the way we experience life
life
and that's why I think it is so magical
because these are little bits of
Timeless wisdom
that in many ways you've written through
the lens of music
but actually you're applicable to everything
everything
I hope so I hoped to write the book in
an open enough way where and I think the
nature of the principles that that are
discussed are not about music yeah and
while I view them as being about art
it is true we can live in an Artful way
and it'll be better than if we don't
regardless of what it is we're doing
are we all artists
we all we all are artists the question
is is are we a better artist today than
we were yesterday and are we doing
everything we can to be the best artists
we can be tomorrow
and it's it's uh we're all art we may
not all be da Vinci
but are are we better than we were and
can we continue to become better and
better and better and it's an ongoing
iterative process over the course of Our Lives
creativity of course is a
huge part of Arts and
and
I was thinking about this this morning when
when
sort of reflecting that we were going to
have a conversation today I was thinking well
well
if if life is Arts
and creates everything is an expression
or something we have to tap into to
express our art then maybe the way we
are with our children the way we are
with our partners that's creativity as
well absolutely yeah absolutely all of
it and how we are with ourselves again
it's all it's all of those things
um anything we do to
if we're dealing with some uh
uh
some issue
and if we decide to take a pill for that
issue or decide to make a creative
change in our life
that allows the issue to resolve itself
that's a creative choice
and um
it seems like in terms of the
sustainability of being able to do these
things for a long time
maybe the taking the pill version isn't
how often uh as a physician how often do
you recommend a lifestyle change versus
uh Pharmaceutical
I mean pretty much 99 of the time if not
100 these days this is what my
entire career and certainly with
patience but also my public facing
career this is what it's all about is to
help people realize actually
the majority of what we're struggling
with today
is a result of our Collective modern
Lifestyles and I say that very yes
carefully I'm not blaming people yes
it's our Collective modern Lifestyles yes
yes
and actually I believe this book now I
think about it
you can make you can make a case of this
as a health book because if
art is an authentic expression of who we
are and we're going to do that
irrespective of the outcome irrespective
what people are going to think
if it's truly about authenticity
then I can categorically
say with certainty that people living in
authentic lives
results in so many of the problems that
I see simple one like if you are not
living uh in alignment with your values
with that disconnect and who you are
with that fracture that's opened up in
the core of who you are you will put
things in that void sugar alcohol
whatever it might be it's often trying
to fill the void of inauthenticity so
the book I feel is is helping people
live a meaningful more authentic life
with some simple but very very
Timeless and apt truths
so I would have thought if people
absorbed them and live their lives by them
them
that it will also help improve their
health absolutely I'll tell you a story I
I
um I used to live in
um artist hours with musical artist
hours so I would sleep until
typically noon although it could be as
late as three
and then I would not leave the house
until the sun set and then I would work
in the studio all night long and usually
drive home as the sun was Rising that
was my normal schedule
for years and years and years
even back to high school I missed the
first three classes of high school um
um
for the last two years of high school
pretty consistently because I was already
already
training this late night night owl
schedule which just felt it felt natural
to me and it was
it seemed the way other people who were
interested in the things that I were
interested did the same
and um
I worked with a performance coach named
Phil maffetone
who and this was
um let's say 20 years ago yeah
and the first thing he said is and I
sleep with these blackout blinds and he
said the first thing I want you to do is
as soon as you wake up
open the blinds and go outside
preferably naked but at least as much of
your body in the Sun as possible the
minute you wake up yeah and he had me
start doing that and at this time I was
waking up at noon and I started doing
that and
and very quickly
I started waking up earlier and earlier
and earlier and earlier it happened
um when he suggested it to me
what I heard so he said I want you to go
outside in the center the minute you
wake up what I heard was I want you to
jump off a cliff
that's how that's how
radical and terrifying it sounded
compared to how my experience of what
what uh what's safe and comfort in life
was was not that
and um that was the first like getting
in tune with the planet I didn't it was
something I didn't know about I didn't
know about that so in terms of being
your authentic self also being your your
authentic animal on this planet there
are certain um
uh
his historically uh on a DNA level yeah
there are things that our bodies like
and in our modern world we don't take
those into consideration
evolutionary truths I guess absolutely
and now I do as much as I can to live by the
the
um you know the way people lived a
thousand years ago as possible or ten
thousand or a hundred thousand yeah
I'm familiar with film office work um
um
I think it's great I hope to
get in touch with Phil at some point and
have it on the show I'd love to talk to
him yes um
um
you have in a previous interview
described your weight loss Journey as creative
creative
then if you recall that or not or I
can't remember the context but I know
but that's interesting yeah I found that
really interesting so I thought wow
I'm trying to broaden the lens on arts
and creativity through you know really
reading your book has
it's been it's for it's it's not force
me it's encourage me down a path of
introspection about what does art really
mean yes
and I found it's so interesting hearing
you Rick say that I thought weight loss
is creative
do you have any idea what you might have
meant by that I'm not sure I'm not sure
I can tell you about the experience
though it was an interesting
I was overweight my entire life
my mom was obese and towards the end of
her life was in a wheelchair due to her obesity
obesity
I've been
dieting and I went to Weight Watchers
with my mom when I was a kid I'd
I'd
tried every fad diet along the way and
nothing seemed to change
and and then finally
I I was at this breaking point when I
when I reached out to Phil I read a book
by a guy named Stu middleman who ran a
thousand miles in 11 days and I was
thinking I can't you know walk to the
end of the block and it's and and
another human being can run a thousand
miles in 11 days so this I have bad
information you know like I'm doing
something wrong
and um and in in Stu's book he talked
about Phil and that's how he was able to
do this crazy thing and okay I have to
meet this guy Phil he know he has the
answers and I've met with Phil and I met
with Phil several times then he
eventually ended up moving into my house
and we lived together for two years and
and
I did everything he said and my health
improved radically and my um
my Vitality turned back on from
essentially being off from a life of
sedentary I was also a vegan for 20
something years which
really uh created havoc in my body it
was not it was not right for me why were
you a vegan for ethical reasons for
health combination combination
um it started
I gave up originally in college I gave up
up uh
uh
Coca-Cola Pepsi Cola first
Ben gave up
and I I did those things I would say
thinking that it was help beliefs about health
um and I got down to the point where I
was I wasn't using any caffeine I was
drinking uh only water and I was eating
chicken and vegetables at that point in time
time
and uh then I moved to California and a
friend gave me a book called diet for a
new America which
is a
a book about veganism essentially
and he said if you read this book you're
not going to want to eat chicken anymore
because it talked about the horrors of
industrial meat
and I thought well if I give up chicken
I'm going to die because all I'm eating
now is chicken and vegetables so I can't
do that
um and I thought at that time before I
read the book I'm going to experiment
and see how long I can go without eating chicken
chicken
and um and then I ended up not eating
chicken again for 20 some odd years and
just ended up eating vegetables and a
lot of uh processed vegan food which was
it turns out not very healthy
or at least not healthy for me oh I can
only speak to my experience but my
experience was and and I will say most
of the vegans I know I knew
didn't look very healthy either
how heavy were you at your heaviest
um 318 pounds but I don't know what that
is in kilograms yeah okay
okay 318 pounds and then
you start working with Phil
start working with Phil did everything
he said my hours changed I got in tune
with the planet
um I was able to do stairs and walk long
distances without
um dying was he doing the heart rate yes
he gave you your heart rates yes and
said I want you to move your body but
not go above this specific heart rate
yes low uh
aerobic heart heart rate so he has a
formula that doesn't need like 180 minus
your age and then you can vary
certain things yeah exactly so but when
you were asked to do that yes so you can
you know get walking or getting it says
but your heart rate can't go above a
certain number that he gave you well you
want to keep your heart rate right at
that number as close as you can get if
you're walking
slowly and you're not getting to that
number you're not doing it you want to
be as close to the target number as
possible for as long as you can you'd
wear a heart rate monitor absolutely and
you'd literally be out walking and
checking either out when at this point
in time I lived in Los Angeles so out
walking is not so easy because the hills
make it nearly impossible
um so I had a treadmill and I did it on
a treadmill at that point in time
so he changes your circadian rhythm by
getting you to see natural lights in the
morning yes which is in tune with your
evolutionary biology and your heritage
yes and vitamin D and um uh the
ultraviolet I got all the benefits of
being in the sun in addition to getting
on the on the um on the right
schedule yeah
and did he make changes to your diet
absolutely he wanted me to eat meat he
wanted me to eat everything
um other than carbs which at that time I
wasn't able to do because I was still a
vegan so
he had me add fish and eggs as the minimal
minimal
of what I could do and and I ate them
both not I never liked fish
growing up I didn't eat fish
and eggs was never something I liked
and and he said regardless whether you
like them or not this is medicine you
take it as medicine think of it as
medicine you need animal protein and
and
I had the I added the animal protein I
cut all soy I cut nuts I cut
I cut I cut a lot of things
and I didn't did not lose weight I lost
maybe five or ten pounds over the two
years that we worked together and you
stuck to the advice absolutely he was
with me and he said at the end of it he
said and he said 99 out of 100 people
who've done what you did all their
weight would fall off for some reason it
hasn't with you and then I thought well
my mom's obese it's just a genetic thing
this is what it is but at least I'm
healthy now you know at least and I felt
very healthy I think that's an
interesting lesson there so you
radically transform your lifestyle I
guess the goal initially was weight loss
it was so the goal was weight loss and
although you didn't really
gets or meet your goal I'm sure you want
in more than five or ten pounds yes yes
you got all these
unexpected benefits
um can you remember what they were it's
like energy or yeah I felt great I felt
great better than you felt before oh
absolutely so much better
so much better so much better
in so many ways and then so that so now
I'm a healthy heavy person
and that went on for years
and then I was suggested to go to see a
nutritionist by I have had a mentor he
just passed away maybe
three weeks ago named Moe Austin
beautiful man he was he worked for Frank
Sinatra and he signed Jimi Hendrix and
he signed the sex pistols and he was a a
really uh one of the most beautiful
people ever in the music business
and I went out to lunch with him one day
and he said you know I'm really getting
worried about you I know that you you
swim every day and you watch what you
eat because I did but you're really
getting big and I'm concerned and I'm
gonna get the name of a nutritionist I
want you to go to my nutritionist and do
whatever he said whatever he says and I
said okay I'll do it knowing it was not
going to work because again I've been
diligent my whole life in wanting to
lose weight and nothing has worked so
I'm assuming nothing will work
but I go along with it because I like Mo
and I'll do anything he asked me to do
and I went to see his guy and he put me on
egg [ __ ] he had me have seven
egg shakes a day
and then
fish soup salad for dinner but very low
calorie so it was it was not so
different than what Phil was
recommending except the difference was
Phil suggests not counting calories
and I can see I understand the idea of
not counting calories and now I've come
to realize I think not counting calories
Works once you're at your target weight
but to get to your target weight you may
need to count calories yeah
first of all I'm sorry to hear about
your friends and Mensa yeah um
um yeah
yeah
so I so I went on a radically reduced
calorie diet I don't know 13 or 1400
calories a day and
um and in 14 months I lost 135 pounds
which is you know a third of my body
more more than a third of my body weight
wow it's interesting hearing that because
because
whether it's 99 or a significant uh
majority of people if they followed What Phil
Phil
yes we're saying would absolutely yes
have had better health better Vitality
better energy and they would have lost
weight yes because I've used that sort
of approach with not everyone what with
many of my patients and it can work
super super well and Phil said it worked
for if
everyone he's done it with its work so
he was he was baffled yeah and I think
that counts in calories saying is
again I think your story speaks to
you know an idea in your book that
don't get too attached to one way
there's always another way you know
absolutely and we're all different and
we're all different and what works for
you might not work for someone else and
it's helpful
to you know sometimes we have wisdom imparted
imparted
by an expert
who's telling us what what through their
experience is best yeah but it may be
what's best for them and not best for
you and we are not we are not one size
fits all yeah and it goes back to my
previous comment which is as you get
more experienced if you're open-minded
and yeah close-minded yes
after seeing tens of thousands of
patients if you remain open-minded
you're like there are always surprises
yes there are always people doing things
that you haven't tried before that but
they're doing and they're getting better
I've always liked to approach it with
curiosity and go wow that's interesting
I didn't know that I wouldn't have
suggested that but that's working for
you and I'd like to know more I'd love
to learn more absolutely that's I that's
my way of being in the world if someone
tells me something that doesn't make
sense to me I want to know more I want
to know everything I don't I don't uh
discount what they're saying just the
opposite yeah I guess it's it's whether
you're attached to an identity whether
you're attached to being right
or whether you're I guess attached to
learning yes because for me I think
that's the fundamental difference now
and I feel that's one of the key
moves I've made which is why I think at
this stage in my life you know my
mid-40s I've I've never felt this happy
and content and I think this is a big
part of it yeah Rick that it's not about
being right anymore I'm not okay fine if
I'm wrong about something okay great
I've had the opportunity to learn
something yes and I think calories for
for many people
I think where this calorie thing comes
for years I think a lot of people are
trying to count calories and a lot of
people of the view that if you focus on
the right Foods actually your natural
satiety will take care of those calories
for you that's certainly been my
experience for most people but as you're
just sharing well actually for some
people it might well be helpful
um and do you still count calories today
no well the other thing that I found
about counting calories that was really
helpful is
it is helpful to know where calories are
for example
when you know I
I'm in I I used to like peanut butter
and I switched to almond butter because
it was the healthier choice
but the amount of calories in half of a
jar of almond butter
are quite a lot so so I'm making but I'm
making a healthy choice and in my mind
well it's the healthy one I can have
half a bottle of almond butter because I
like it and I'm hungry so I'll have that
understanding that the the half of Jar
of almond butter had more calories than
I meant to eat in in a whole day in
addition to all the food that I eat
was helpful to me yeah it's an
empowerment piece isn't it you can now
use that information and now without
count and go hey I want a bit of almond
butter but I better not have half the
jar yes and now I rarely will have
almond butter just because it's so um
the trade-off of the amount of calories
for what it is I might not make that
choice yeah and again it's an
empowerment you're now with that
information absolutely you're saying for
you yeah it's not worth the trade-off
yes Bob down the street it's up to him
he may go yeah that's I I definitely
would rather eat less later but have my
almond butter yes and um yeah
super super interesting so you you
effectively went on a super low calorie
diet high protein no carb low calorie
diet so with Phil you had huge
improvements in multiple aspects of your
health yeah just not weight loss correct
when you saw uh your your late friend's
nutritionist yes
you got this incredible weight loss was
there anything else you got with it or
it this is an interesting one
I felt like I
I really in that in that case what he
was suggesting with the nutritionist was
suggesting was suggesting seemed very
far out to me it seemed extreme to me
and I felt like by doing what he said I was
was
I was
putting my faith in him
and turning turning myself over I didn't
do what I thought was best I did what he
thought was best which was not something
I'm good at um
and I found through that through giving
up what I thought was best that's how I
so what's the lesson there don't always
trust yourself well we can't we can't
always trust ourselves but it's
interesting that there are times when
it's it's an experiment you know it's an
experiment that sometimes
I'm gonna do it the way that doesn't
sound right to me and see what happens
again it's all a test
but to but I before I was I would have
been closed to that test because
that doesn't sound right to me I'm not
going to do that this didn't sound right to me but out of respect for Mo I'll try
to me but out of respect for Mo I'll try it
it yeah it's an interesting concept isn't
yeah it's an interesting concept isn't it because I guess
it because I guess we'd always want people to trust
we'd always want people to trust themselves
but nothing tends to be true at the extremes does it it's kind of like yeah
extremes does it it's kind of like yeah sure trust yourself trust yourself but
sure trust yourself trust yourself but sometimes lean in and trust someone else
sometimes lean in and trust someone else and see what happens yes
and see what happens yes it's a bit like that section in in the
it's a bit like that section in in the book The Britain on rules
book The Britain on rules and how
and how rules are sometimes always oh we're
rules are sometimes always oh we're always okay so tell me about rules
always okay so tell me about rules [Music]
[Music] um
um I think rules are there to be tested and
I think rules are there to be tested and when when a rule comes
when when a rule comes it can it can either be a useful rule
it can it can either be a useful rule or an A not useful Rule and
or an A not useful Rule and sometimes we'll adopt a set of rules on
sometimes we'll adopt a set of rules on purpose a limitation that that
purpose a limitation that that um
um to create a specific uh
to create a specific uh uh you may work on a book like every
uh you may work on a book like every time you work on a book you this you
time you work on a book you this you have a rough idea of what it's going to
have a rough idea of what it's going to be about it's not about everything yeah
be about it's not about everything yeah not every book is about everything so
not every book is about everything so you set up an organization for that book
you set up an organization for that book that's rules and that's rules that
that's rules and that's rules that you're adopting for that book
you're adopting for that book so there's time where having rules make
so there's time where having rules make sense in general in the world
sense in general in the world rules are there to establish
rules are there to establish an average Behavior
an average Behavior and I'm not sure that average is
and I'm not sure that average is anything to Aspire to so sometimes
anything to Aspire to so sometimes especially in art if you want to create
especially in art if you want to create something special
something special often it comes from breaking rules from
often it comes from breaking rules from going beyond the accepted Norm of how
going beyond the accepted Norm of how it's done
it's done yeah I'll tell you this is an
yeah I'll tell you this is an interesting medical story about going
interesting medical story about going beyond the Norms of how things are I
beyond the Norms of how things are I just heard the story recently
just heard the story recently um I have a friend who's a brilliant
um I have a friend who's a brilliant brain surgeon maybe one of the best in
brain surgeon maybe one of the best in the world
the world and he told me the story of doing a
and he told me the story of doing a brain surgery where
brain surgery where there was a big tumor in a part in the
there was a big tumor in a part in the brain it was a very particularly
brain it was a very particularly dangerous operation because the tumor
dangerous operation because the tumor was right next to the part of the brain
was right next to the part of the brain that allows a person to speak yeah
that allows a person to speak yeah and if the if the surgery went too far
and if the if the surgery went too far the person would never speak again
the person would never speak again and to do the surgery the person was
and to do the surgery the person was anesthetized but had to be awake and had
anesthetized but had to be awake and had to be speaking the whole time
to be speaking the whole time it's the only way to know how far you
it's the only way to know how far you can go
can go so the surgeon is doing these
so the surgeon is doing these the hiney slices of taking this tumor
the hiney slices of taking this tumor away tiny slices tiny slices in the
away tiny slices tiny slices in the person speaking to him and he knows well
person speaking to him and he knows well I'm getting close to the place I can't
I'm getting close to the place I can't go you know I can't go past because then
go you know I can't go past because then the person will never speak again
the person will never speak again and he's going in person speaking but
and he's going in person speaking but the tumor's still there and he's going
the tumor's still there and he's going and he's going he's going
and he's going he's going and then he gets to the part where he's
and then he gets to the part where he's not allowed to go further and the
not allowed to go further and the person's still speaking and he does
person's still speaking and he does another slice and the person's still
another slice and the person's still speaking he does another slice and he
speaking he does another slice and he does another slice and he keeps going
does another slice and he keeps going and he moved right through
and he moved right through where that what the textbook says you
where that what the textbook says you can't do and the person's speaking the
can't do and the person's speaking the whole time
whole time and and he said
and and he said it was me it was incredible it was an
it was me it was incredible it was an incredible experience and
incredible experience and the way we thought the brain works is
the way we thought the brain works is not the way the brain works
not the way the brain works and then I said well
and then I said well how much of the
how much of the how much of what's taught today in
how much of what's taught today in medical school in the textbook in
medical school in the textbook in medical school textbooks of medical
medical school textbooks of medical school how much of that information is
school how much of that information is accurate and up to date and how much
accurate and up to date and how much isn't and he said maybe half
isn't and he said maybe half maybe half of what's being taught right
maybe half of what's being taught right now
now might be right I'm at least half is
might be right I'm at least half is either wrong or obsolete yeah
either wrong or obsolete yeah that's incredible it's incredible
