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The War Between Who You Are & Who You Could Be - Jordan Peterson (4K)

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Summary

Core Theme

The core theme revolves around the importance of embracing truth, responsibility, and courage in navigating life's complexities, advocating for a proactive and honest approach to personal growth and societal contribution, rather than succumbing to cynicism or naive optimism.

Mind Map

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you say you are morally obligated to do

why well I think partly because life is

so difficult and challenging that unless

you give it everything you have the

chances are very high that it will

embitter you and then you'll be a force

for darkness and not good and

so you know the the fact that life is

short and can be brutal can terrify you into

into

hiding and avoiding but it it can also

you can flip that on its head and

understand that since you're all in

anyways you might as well take take the

risks that are

adventurous and that's a very good thing to

understand and what is also useful to

understand in that is that there isn't

anything more adventurous than the

truth this is something that took me a

long time to figure out well you can

craft your words to get what you want

you know and people do that all the time

they craft their words so they can avoid

taking responsibility for things they

should take responsibility for they can

craft the words to gain an advantage

that they really don't deserve that's

what you do when you

manipulate and the problem with that you

might say well why not do that if I can

get what I want and the answer that is

you aren't necessarily the best judge of

what you need and it's easy to be

diluted in what you want and that's the

sort of delusions that people chase if

they chase

power if you decide instead that you're

going to just say what you believe to be

true you have to let go of the

consequences and you might think well I

don't want to let go of the consequences

because I want to control what's going

on but what you miss then is Adventure

because if you don't control what's

going on you don't know what the hell's

going to happen and maybe that's

exciting and actually there's no doubt

about it and then you have the

additional Advantage if you're

attempting to say what you believe to be

true and attempting to act in the manner

that you think is most appropriate

that's genuinely you and you have the

force of reality behind you and

obviously that's what you have if you're

trying to say live in the truth is you

have the force of reality behind you

that seems like a good deal then you

have the reality and the adventure so

why is that a moral obligation well if

you hide and you don't let what's inside

of you out and you don't bring into the

world what you could bring and you

become cynical and bitter you will start

doing very dark things so you'll start

in not only will you not add to the

world what you could add but you'll

start being jealous of people who are

competent and doing well and work to

destroy them

so that's the pathway to hell

really so one of the trends that I've

been railing against most recently has

been cynicism is this pervasive belief

that everything is terrible and it can't

get better and the people who believe

that it can improve a dumb and

delusional and the problem

and I I don't know where it comes from I

don't I don't it's the beginning of

wisdom cynicism this is part of the

reason why it's hard to combat

you know because people start out naive

and naive people are optimistic but not

really they're just naive and naive

people have no idea that there's say

malevolence in the world they have no

idea that there's malevolence in their

own heart they're sheltered and

dependent and when that breaks it often

breaks into cynicism and so cynicism is

actually an improvement the veils have

fallen from your eyes exactly exactly

the problem with cynicism is that

especially if it's allied with a kind of

arrogance is that you can end there and

that's a big mistake so then the

question becomes what once you once

you've been bitten hard and you're no

longer naive well that is very hard on

your optimism let's say so then the

question is how do you restore that

without reverting to the naivity which

you can't do anyways without blinding

yourself once you've been bitten and the

answer to that is you substitute courage

for naivity and you and you regain your

optimism as a moral imperative right so

one of the things you might ask yourself

is well if the future is likely to be

catastrophic in a variety of different

ways which is definitely the case both

socially and personally then what

attitude should you bring to bear on

that and the answer might be well if you

were courageous and faithful and I can

explain what that means then you would

conduct yourself in in a manner that met

the future headon with the presumption

that you can manage it and this is the

presumption we should bring to bear

these the people who are using fear to Garner

Garner

power point to the various apocalypses

that might befall us and it's difficult

to counter them because the future is

always an apocalyptic Horizon like

everything can fall apart and and has

before and might well again and will in

fact in your life as you age and die and

so it's very easy to conjure up an

apocalypse then the question becomes the

question becomes not is that apocalypse

potentially real because the answer to

that is yes but what attitude should you

have towards that naive that's not good

cynical that's that's better but it's

still not good it's another form of hell

and it also tends to make the potential

apocalypses more likely well so what do

you have when you move Beyond cynicism

and what you have when you move Beyond

cynicism is wisdom and that's not naive

it's Courageous one of the things that

religious people have done relatively

badly especially in recent years is

theyve failed to delineate the

relationship between faith and courage

you know people like Dawkins and the new

atheists they point to Faith and they

describe it as something like belief in foolish

foolish

superstitions but that isn't really what

faith in the deepest sense means it

means that you are willing to act out

the proposition that you can ride the

wave no matter how big it becomes and

that we can all do that together

especially if we do that in Good Will

and I think that's that's a much more

it's a much more appropriate way to

confront the future and it's also the

proper medication for cynicism now the

other thing the cynics see the other

thing about cynicism that's interesting

too is that cynics aren't cynical enough

about their own cynicism right because

you can get doubtful enough to start doub

doub

the validity of your own cynicism it's

like what makes you so smart what makes

you the judge of being and the Coline

kids were like that you know they

decided that existence itself was

unsustainable given its cruelty and that

the proper response was to put up a

giant middle finger to man men and God right

right

well here's a way of being cynical about

cynicism how does your cynicism let you

off the hook right how does your

cynicism justify your desire to avoid

necessary responsibility and to pursue

your own short-term hedonic gains it's

like why aren't you cynical about your

own doubt and that's that's another

place where wisdom begins it's like that

so that's two

right cynicism beats naivity but it's

not the ultimate destination and you

should be cynical enough to question the

moral validity of your own of your own

resentment and your own what would you

say your own turning away from the world

the way that I see it given that we

don't know the future given that much of

our motivations are invisible to

us we're not a Crystal Pond that we can see

see

into you have to have some form of

delusion about what's going to happen in

the future you're trying your best to

see the way that it's going to be but

given that the glass could be half empty

or half full why not have a delusion

that's going to be useful to you one of

Hope even in the face and the

understanding that things might be

difficult and that there's going to be

obstacles yeah there was a there was a

line of social psychology that pursued

that argument for quite a while that

made the argument that people had to

have positive Illusions about the future

and that that was the fundamental way

that people staved off Despair and

bolstered their self-esteem but I don't

think I don't

think we need to separate out the

distinction between fantasy and

delusion you do have a fantasy about the

future you have to because like you said

it's not structured so you have to you

have to provisionally map the future

that's what a plan is what a strategy is

right but that doesn't make it a

delusion like it becomes a delusion when

the map Bears no relationship to the

underlying territory so if you have a

strategy for the future you know maybe

let's say that your strategy for the

future just for the sake of argument is

that you have 5 million YouTube

subscribers in 3 years well well you

have no

evidence of the strict sort that that's

how it's going to be because Anything

could happen between now and 3 years

from now let's say but

but

you there's no reason to call that a

delusion it's a it's one it's one

hypothetically possible path of

potential and then you can make the

sacrifices necessary to bring that about

so even though it's a fantasy because it

something that isn't there it's not a

delusion it's a delusion when you're

ignoring elements of your own experience

that would inform your fantasy more

effectively you're ignoring them so that

you can live in a positive

representation of the future without

having to pay the appropriate price for

it one of my favorite ideas I learned

over the last couple of years is the

inner Citadel from isai bin do you know

this MH so isai bin says when the

natural Road toward human fulfillment is

blocked human beings Retreat into

themselves become involved in themselves

and try to create inwardly that world

which some evil Fate has denied them

externally that's a delusion often if

you cannot obtain from the world that

which you really desire you must teach

yourself not to want it if you cannot

get what you want you must teach

yourself to want what you can get this

is a very frequent form of spiritual

retreat in depth into a kind of inner

Citadel in which you lock yourself up

against all of the fearful ills of the

world mutual friend Henderson explained

it in a simpler way if your leg is

wounded you can try to treat the leg MH

and if you can't then you cut the leg

off and announce that the desire for

legs is misguided and must be subdued

and I think that we see this everywhere

well okay so you so imagine that you lay

out a plan and it meets with an

impediment and it knocks the slots out

from underneath the plan okay now you

Retreat okay now you have an option when

you're retreating and one option is to

construct a world in fantasy where

you're taking revenge on those who

wronged you and getting what you want

that's that's a pathway to Madness so

often people who develop serious

delusions do develop um what would you

call them their their compensatory

fantasies and then they start to dwell

in them and often for hundreds of hours

so the the kids again who shot up the

Coline high school they dwelt in a

fantasy world for hundreds of hours

before they undertook their Dreadful

actions right but you can also flip back

back into yourself let's say and you can

this is like this is like confession and

atonement it's the proper way to think

about it is you can think about what it

is that you did wrong or insufficiently

that led to the collapse of your plan

right so that's the first investigation

I made some sacrifices I attempted to

bring about a particular form of the

future it didn't happen okay why well

the world is set against me and the

cosmos is evil and there's no God and

I'm bitter and cynical that's one

potential explanation right poor me

right and and I'm not trying to be

flippant about this because sometimes

people's dreams are quite realistic and

they still fail catastrophically you

know it can be brutal you know maybe you

did make a lot of good decisions and you

suddenly got ill or someone in your

family did and everything went to hell

on you it doesn't have to be because

you've done something cardinally foolish

that you fail you know it's built into

the structure of the world but doesn't

matter you can also Retreat into and you

can say something like all right I need

to retool my conception of strategy but

also potentially my conception of goal

you know maybe I'm looking in the wrong

place maybe I have to look somewhere

else and you can open yourself up to a

revelation so there's a gospel statement

that's very relevant to this so Christ

tells his followers that if they knock

the door will open if they ask they'll

receive and if they seek they'll find

and so it sounds like it sounds magical

it sounds like like the sort of thing

that the new atheists would have a field

day with but that isn't that's not an

wise interpretation of that saying the

proper interpretation is something more

like a recognition of the way thought

works so imagine your plans didn't work

out okay now you sit down and you say to

yourself I'd like to

know even if the world was conspiring

against me and my failure was 95% % the

fault of external occurrences and other

people what did I do that wasn't as good

as it could have been and where did I

fail to look so that the probability of

my failure was higher now now to ask

that question you have to want the

answer that's that's what it means to

knock or to ask or to seek this this is

no joke it's like you have to want to

know and it's a very painful thing to do

because especially if you had given it

you're all to the degree you are

able and you have reason to be

bitter you're going to be searching for

the errors that you still made and

discovering your own errors is always

extremely painful right especially if

they're errors that you're in love with

and so you have to be willing to strip

yourself down that's what humility means

fundamentally and then but the advantage

is this is why it's so useful to listen

to people you might find out where you're

you're

stupid and then you could start stop

being stupid and so one of the reasons

you confess your sins let's say is

because you want to discover where

you're insufficient now it's painful you

know it's painful to encounter an

impediment in the form of someone else's

opinion that might show you where you're

blind and ignorant or willfully blind

even but the advantage to that is you

can rectify the error and then as you

move forward you're stronger you know

one of the things I taught my kids and I

hope Le at least somewhat successfully

was that

you should always ask a stupid question

and and that doesn't mean the sort of

question that someone who wasn't paying

attention would

ask if you're listening to

someone and you don't understand what

they're saying and you reveal that

you're revealing your ignorance you know

and maybe you're in a room full of

people and you think you're the only

person stupid enough to not get it which

is very rarely the case by the way the

thing is though if you if you reveal

that ignorance to yourself and to the

other person they can Rectify it and if

you do that a thousand times you're not

ignorant anymore and and this is a real

Pathway to success too you see it you do

this because you ask real questions in

your podcast and Rogan does this okay

Rogan's always trying to be a little

smarter than he already is and then that

works iterated like if you ask a

thousand dumb questions and you listen

to the answer then you know a thousand

things some of them deep that you didn't

know before so that's the that's the

advantage to searching your soul let's

say for the for unrequited sins and

attempting to atone that's not a

delusion right it's an attempt to set

yourself right it's the opposite of a

delusion even though there can be a

Fantastical element to it yeah the uh

conversation around people who try their

best do as many things right as they

could and yet still fall short because

the world is random and and unfortunate

things happen happiness as far as I can

see it sits in the gap between

your expectations and

reality but the problem here is that

people who have high standards often end

up feeling a lack right how can people

who strive like this avoid feeling

despondent at falling short of their own

high standards I've heard you talk about

the Statue of David saying something

like you are not all that you could be

yeah and as soon as you posit an ideal

you begin to compare yourself to that

ideal so well part that's a good

question I mean um the ultimate ideal is

also the ultimate judge because the

ultimate ideal is is something against

which you fall far short and that might

be so painful that you can barely stand

it but then what you do is you you you

two things I suppose is you lower the

ideal and you raise your estimation of

your Poss of your potential and what do

I mean by lower the ideal well if you're

you're comparing yourself to someone or

even to a future self and the Gap is so

painful that it paralyzes you then

you've created a dragon that you don't

have the tools to master and so what you

have to do is you have to scale the

dragon down to size and you want to

scale the dragon down to size until it's

a size that you are willing to move

toward however small that is now you

know if you're here and you're deal is

here and that Gap is unbearable then you

reduce the Gap and you reduce the Gap

and you're going to have to do that

anyways because you're not going to move

from where you are to perfect in one

Fell Swoop right there's going to be

incremental steps so you have to fill in

that that hierarchy of progression

progression

with with a high enough resolution

representation so that you can start to

move forward and and then you should be

butress there's another gospel comment

that's very interesting it has to do

it's called the Matthew principle and

the Matthew principle is to those who

have everything more will be given and

from those who have nothing everything

will be taken now it's brutal because it

implies that reality works like this

when you're moving up you go like this

right and that's pretty nice that's a

lot better than this but when you're

going down you go like that right it's

like downhill downhill Cliff okay so you

want to avoid the downhill path well if

the uphill path is like this which is

like exponential let's say or geometric

then what that means is

that it doesn't matter how big the first

steps you take uphill are even if

they're trivial even if they're shameful

in their in their size because you're so

useless that if you're if you're

disciplined in that you'll speed up

extraordinarily rapidly and so that's

the good news you might say is that you

can take very small step STS even ones

that might be shameful in their size and

you have to admit that to yourself but

once you get the ball rolling it doesn't

roll in a linear fashion it rolls in a

geometric fashion and this is a really

good thing to know because it can take

the sting out of the realization of your

own stupidity it's like yeah you know

everybody has their weak sides let's say

things they're embarrassed about when I

first started going to the gym I was

like how old was I 198 5 23 and I think

I weighed 135 lbs and I was F 6'1 very

very thin a TW right 27 inch waist

something like that I smoked like mad

and I drank too much like I wasn't in

good shape the

first the first attempts forward I took

in the gym I went to this swim sze class

Jesus it was me and this like really fat

guy young guy probably not in any worse

shape than me and like seven old women

over 70 and they could outswim me like

it was pretty damn humiliating and so I

did a semester of that and got myself in

somewhat better shape and then I started

to go to the gym to work out to lift

weights and that was also rough because

you know I'd be underneath the bloody

bench press trying to lift 75 lbs off

the off the rests and you know some

muscle-headed bastard would come over

and tell me how to do it and it's like

yeah thank you but you know it's

embarrassing and lots of times people

won't do things like go to the gym

because they're so embarrassed about how

they look or what sort of shape they're

in and it's a pain to start at the bottom

bottom

but you start at the bottom where you're

weak and if you want to rectify what's

weak you have to accept the fact that

you're at the bottom and that the first

steps are going to be painful you know I

it took me about 3 years but I stopped

smoking and then I stopped drinking and

I gained 40 lbs of in like 3 and a half

years something like that I basically

had to stop doing that cuz I had to eat

like six times a day it was crazy but I

got a lot more physically confident and

a lot

more coordinated cuz working out with

dumbbells makes you coordinated right

because it it exercises all the small

ligaments and the tendons and so my

lower body in particular got a lot more

coordinated then I could dance so that

was better when I was going out dancing

because I did a lot of that in graduate

school and but the point of all this is

if you're going to rectify your

weaknesses you have to admit your

insufficiency to your own shame now if

the gap between you and your ideal is so

great that it paralyzes you you shrink

that right we'll get back to talking to

Jordan in one minute but first I need to

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checkout one of the things I've been

talking about in the live shows is your

comparison group is incorrect the fact

that you know we have the opportunity to

sit down and listen to anybody on the

planet right the best Minds the best

athletes the best thinkers the most

articulate that are alive right now or

listen to the people that have died that

were around when video cameras existed

and you can compare yourself to that

group yeah but that's not your

comparison group if you have the impetus

to sit down and listen to me and you

waffle on for three hours about these

deep topics these interesting ideas you

are so already selected out of the

normal group you're already already

asking yourself questions that almost

nobody almost nobody else is right but

because your comparison group of people

that are unbelievably High performing I

remember before I started my podcast I'd

listen to to you or to Sam or to Joe and

I'd think God that recall is is amazing

it's so it's like that they they've just

got this identic memory and everything

that they've ever read is able to come

to the surface and they're able to say

it in this way that's completely

seamless and all the rest of it you go

okay well are you really person that's

never recorded a podcast before going to

compare yourself to Joe Rogan man that's

recorded a thousand and spent 10,000

hours on stage and done all of this UFC

commentary and done all of this stuff in

terms of TV is that really who you're

going to compare yourself to and it's

unfair and the problem that I see is

people who have big dreams for

themselves and want to do great things

they like to set their sights High yeah

and yet they feel despondent In the

comparison so I think well there's a

pride in that too e like can be I want

to be well or that's who I should be

comparing myself to right that's the

pride and the pride is something like I

should be that or even I could be that

it's like well maybe you could but

you're certainly not going to do it as

you already pointed out without the

apprenticeship right so you could say

that the despondency is actually is is

in proportion to the to the false Pride

now I wrote a chapter in I think my

first book which was compare yourself to

who you are today not to who someone

else is it's sorry I I mangled out to

some degree but you get the point the

proper comparison group for you is you

yesterday because you can make first of

all you're the you're your you're the

only control group that's appropriate to

you because you have a certain set of

talents and possibilities and

limitations and tragedies that are truly

unique to you and so you might be

comparing yourself to someone else on

some Dimension but it's not a reasonable

comparison because you don't know what

talents they were blessed with and you

also don't know what opportunities they

had that you didn't Etc it's just not a

reasonable comparison it's a lot better

to think about who you were and then to

think well could you be somewhat better

in some Dimension and the the positive

thing about that is the answer is almost

always yes now you can Orient that

transformation towards some Stellar

Target and that a reasonable thing to do

but that doesn't exactly mean that you

should compare yourself to that Target

aiming at something and comparing

yourself to it are not exactly the same

thing plus your bloody comparison is

also a delusion you know that's another

thing that you have to understand is

that you look at the person you're

jealous of and really what you're doing

is you're you're looking through a very

narrow aperture at a very thin slice of

their life you're looking at the thin

slice of their life that's turning out

the best but you're also looking at a

thin slice of their life that's marketed

to be the best right and you have no

idea what the horror of that person's

life might be in its totality and you

have no idea if like if the deal was say

you wanted to

be Russell Brand there's a good example

you want it to be Russell Brand you want

it to be as charismatic and as famous as

he is well your real

wish is that you get to have everything

Russell Brand has but none of his

problems well come on I mean that's just

it's just it's no wonder that a vision

like that would make you despondent

because it's it's naive it's resentful

it's jealous it's bitter and it's

unreasonable you have to take the good

with the bad you have to take the bad

with the good and people very rarely

think about that when they're thinking

about you know the famous people they

think they'd like like to be there was a

recent interview with Elon Musk where he

said something my mind is a storm I

don't think most people would want to be

me right they may think they would want

to be me but they don't they don't know

they don't understand what do you think

of that elon's someone that people

probably look up to and admire and

aspire to be one of the downsides to

high level genius is you might describe

it as hypermania

so here's a simple test that people can

do so this is a test of something called

verbal fluency and verbal fluency is

associated with creativity and so a ver

here's a simple verb verbal fluency test

write down as many four-letter words as

you can in three minutes that begin with

t okay that's that's pretty constrained

four letters and T or or write down as

many words as you can in three minutes

to begin with S that's less constrained

all right so

there's quite a powerful correlation

between the sheer number of words that

you produce and your lifetime creative

achievement right especially in the

artistic and verbal

domains that's different than vocabulary

vocabulary is how many words you

understand fluency is how many words you

can produce in a given Dey of those

words yeah well people vary to a degree

that you can hardly imagine so some

people if you get them to do the

four-letter test in 3 minutes they'll

write down like 12 words and some will

write down

150 and the ones who are writing down

150 their minds are going at a hypomanic

rate they're just thinking five times as

fast yeah without any remission

whatsoever and you know when that gets

completely out of control you have manic

you have someone who's Manic and there's

nothing fun about manic that's where the

word maniac comes from from and someone

whose manic has a thousand different

plans Each of which are one sentence

long that they're hyper enthusiastic

about they'll spend every scent of their

money pursuing them and things just go

immediately to hell and so that's the

that's the outer limit of pathology on

the creative front and someone like musk

who's clearly a genius that's what he's

contending with in his internal

landscape now I'm not saying that he's

manic because I see no signs of that but

someone that creative is on that edge or

you see someone like Ben Shapiro I mean

it's very interesting to talk to Ben

because and Russell Brand is the same

way Shapiro speaks I think more rapidly

than anyone I ever met but if you're

with him you see very clearly that he's

probably thinking five times that fast

and that's a lot and when I was writing

maps of meaning which was my first book

I had a very difficult time shutting off

my mind I was obsessed with that book

and so I was writing about three hours a

day and then I was thinking about the

material like for 12

hours as and the thoughts came

as way faster than thinking they

probably came about as fast as I can

read I can read about 12200 words a

minute if the material isn't

overwhelmingly dense and so it was just

nonstop thought for like 16 hours a day

that's part of the reason I started

lifting weights because if I was lifting

heavy enough think 12200 words a minute

while I've got 100 pound on my back it

was enough it was enough to shut it down

and it was also one of the reasons that

I drank because that was another thing

that would shut it off yeah well I I

think the price that people pay to be

the person that you admire is just such

an interesting frame to look at someone

like Elon Musk my mind is a storm I

don't think most people would want to be

me the price that you would have to pay

in order to be me is not one that you

would but you're one of the richest men

on the planet and you get to you know

dance on stage and and release cars that

bu proof and put rockets in space and

stuff well yeah but what about all of

the baggage what's the price what's well

he also he also appears to me to be

hyper conscientious and I know people

who've worked with him like musk isn't

just a creative genius he's also an

extremely conscientious engineer which

and really conscientious Engineers they

have very interesting Minds I like

talking to Engineers because my

brother-in-law is a great engineer and

when when he understands something Jim

when he understands something thing he

understands how to build it out of atoms

right like he understands it at every

single level and musk appears to me to

be someone who's this rare combination

of hyper creative but also hyper

conscientious and I know that he works

all the time yeah does that sort of uh

hypertrophied executive function help to

Wrangle some of the diffuse Creative

Energy oh we're going to put it into

this one thing at least for a while and

then we'll move on to another thing yes

yes definitely definitely you Eric

Weinstein's a good example of someone I

hope Eric isn't annoyed by this but Eric

is unbelievably creative but he's not

particularly conscientious and so his

and and I think he found an occupation

where that works extremely well because

he's he I don't know if he's still doing

this but he worked with Peter teal for

quite a long time as his idea man right

and Eric's an extremely interesting

person musk is hyper creative and as far

as I can tell hyper conscientious and

the conscientiousness does Focus you

know it it and and that lots of people

who are creative aren't conscientious

well it's rare like if you're one in the

there's no correlation between

creativity and

conscientiousness okay so if you're one

in a thousand if you're the most

creative person in a thousand and you're

the most conscientious person in a

thousand you're one person in a million

and musk is probably more like one

person in a 100 million right something

like that maybe more but or maybe a

billion right

maybe yeah it's interesting to consider

the changes that happen to people as

well as they as that their platforms as

the scrutiny around them continues to

increase obviously this has been a

journey for you over the last you know

nearly approaching 10 years now of was

it 2006 was that pH c16 2016 2016 yeah

sorry um how have you found Fame change

you what's been impacted or changed due

to the the scrutiny and the surveillance

criticism well the first thing that

changed I think was that I saw misery on

a scale that I hadn't really seen it

before you know I had worked as a

clinician for a long time and i' worked

with say 20 people a week and I was

always in the realm of difficult

existential problems wrestling

with my clients's problems alongside of

them and I liked that a lot and then I

had my research and I had my family and

various business interests and so that

misery in some ways was contained and

boxed in and I had a lot of structure

around that to be able to function

despite the fact that you know I was

neck deep in 20 people's serious

problems which I really like by the way

when when I started speaking on a larger

scale and meeting more and more

people this scale of demoralization

really hit me I didn't know that I

didn't know how deep the demoralization

in our culture had become and I think

that was especially obvious to me at

that point among young men now it looks

like this is Jonathan Height's research

is indicating this that possibly young

women are even in worse shape but for

whatever reason most most of the people

I was meeting at least to begin with

were young men I think it was probably

because most of them far more people on

YouTube are young men and

so the it was shocking and brutal to see

how much demoralization

demoralization

how widely spread the demoralization in

our culture

was other than that and that that was a

real shock and it it was very hard on me

I would say um

everything else about it has been at

minimum ridiculously

interesting I have an unbelievable

wealth of opportunity I'd be a fool to

be anything but abjectly grateful I mean

the misery that I saw was a shock and it

hurt me and it it was part of what made

how did that how did that impact you did

it change the way that you see the world at

all it made me understand more deeply

how important it was to offer people an encouraging

encouraging

word I could see that so many people were

were

dying psychologically or actually for

lack of an encouraging word and so it

made being in the position to provide

that much

more necessary mean part of the reason

that Tammy and I too are const

LLY is because it seems to be good it

seems to be a good thing you know we've

even seen changes in the audience so

five years ago six years ago when we did

our first tour a lot of the people who

came to the talks were in pretty rough

shape there were more men than there are

now like the proportion of men to women

was higher and the men were generally

there alone and they were a lot of them

were looking pretty ragged around the

edges and now five years later half the

audience comes in suits like it's as if

they're dressed for a wedding most of

the guys are there with some woman um

the the audience members are doing much

better and the lecture events are

extremely positive you know if you

looked at my life from the outside you'd

think that I was in a constant storm of

you know aggravated controversy but all

of that virtually all of that is virtual

it's just in the online world now it

touches the actual World from time to

time because I am being pursued by my

regulatory College inario yeah yeah yeah

which is you know mostly just an

annoyance and a Preposterous annoyance a

Preposterous expensive and timec

consuming annoyance but apart from

that everything that's happened around

me has

been positive H that's a strange thing too

too

positive at such an intensity that even

that is

daunting you know you'd

think it's hard to imagine that you

could be in a situation where things are

so positive that you can barely stand it

but but I am in that situation and it's

quite something to contend with I I was

fortunate I suppose to some degree that

it didn't happen to me till I was old CU

I've never really I've never really got

accustomed to it I've had a thought

about this observing what's happened to

you and you know the Weinstein are a

good example of this too we often hear

the Perils of getting Fame too young the

McCoy Culkin of the world the Britney

Spears of the world you know uh

individuals who don't have any sense of

identity being thrust into a

non-representative experience of the

world and they're completely

unmowed but I think that there's an

equally interesting question to ask okay

and what happens if you think you know

who you are if you've spent de decades

five decades six Decades of your life

understanding your place your status the

trajectory that you're on and then out

of nowhere you get ripped away from all

of the areas of reference all of the way

markers that you thought you knew and

now you're just floating in the air I

imagine that could be even more

disquieting in some ways

well when everything blew up around me

to begin with it was stressful I would

say because my job was on the light my

university job and I never thought that

would happen I

mean my when I worked at Harvard Anna at

the University of

Toronto that was all positive like I

really liked working with my graduate

students I had at least cordial

relationships with my with my fellow

faculty members at Harvard they were

more than cordial at the University of

Toronto most of the faculty members that

I started to develop friendships with

were also those who ended up moving away

and so and they were often people who

got offers from other places and you

know they they would disappear and so a

lot of the friends I developed at the

University of Toronto went elsewhere and

so I didn't get as tightly tied

in with regards to Friendship networks

among my peers as I had at Harvard for

example but I had great relationships

with undergraduates and with my graduate

students that was plenty like I loved

working with my graduate students and so

it wasn't like I was pining and alone

not at all and I had a good network of

friends and

um and so then that was threatened and

really disappeared in

2016 um and my clinical practice was

threatened and so that was

unsettling I think there were things

that continued though even when I was

teaching as a university Professor the

way I taught wasn't

wasn't

typical the things I taught weren't

typical I thought for decades you know

eventually someone's going to find out

what I'm teaching and and you know

there's going to be trouble I couldn't

believe I was allowed

encouraged to teach what I was teaching

um but you know the universities and

this was particularly true of Harvard in the

the

90s that's how they were structured what

was so rebellious about what what you were

teaching well there wasn't really

anybody who was concentrating on the

Nexus between say architect

ideas archetypal and religious ideas in

Neuroscience so that wasn't a thing I

mean there was a few people Yak panp was

one of them who a lot of the researchers

who were interested in the Neuroscience

of emotion became interested in deep

narrative because they started to

understand that our emotional life is a

story that's a good way of thinking

about it and that we're guided you know

we're Guided by our emotional instincts

and what are emotional instincts do is

put us into certain stories that's what

it means to be in love for example is

that you're in a love story and it's not

it's not uh a particular balance of

oxytocin and endorphins that you are

aware of it's not broken down to its

constituent Parts no definitely not part

of a narrative that you tell yourself

about what this means and how this feels

right right well and it's interesting

that the Instinct manifests itself as a

story and so I was very interested in

narrative and story and I and also see

no psychologist study Carl Yung like

literally virtually none really now oh

psychology psychology really developed

in some ways as the materialist

antithesis to

psychoanalysis so Freud and Yung and

even Adler to some degree they were off

limits for

for scientifically trained behavioral

psychologists and that's what I was and

am like I trained at Migel there were no

courses in psychoanalytic theory at Mill

I read Freud and Yung completely on my

own uh flying in the face of the advice

that I was getting even from my

well-meaning graduate supervisor who was

a great guy and who never got in my way

in the least quite the contrary but I

was warned for example when I went on

the job market not to talk about the

things that I was truly interested in

and I ignored that by the way and what

that meant was some places that I went

to apply for a job didn't want me but

then Harvard did so that worked out

quite nicely you know and that's one of

the advantages too also of being true to

your own vision is that you won't get

what you don't want see I didn't want to

go work somewhere where they wouldn't

want me I wanted to go work somewhere

where they wanted me so my strategy was

well this is who I am and if you don't

want me you know that's a drag because

I'm looking for a job but by the same

token I'm not going to pretend to be

someone other than who I am so I can

work here what a stupid way of starting

your career well that goes back to the

truth right telling the truth what are

you going to if you tell a sufficiently

seductive lie what is the best that you

can hope for right the person that

you're telling the lie to falls in love

with a projection right right absolutely

well when I applied to graduate school I

wrote a crazy admissions letter and I

basically out who I was flaws and all

and what I was interested in and two

people three people bit and the one that

I liked best partly because he was at

Mill and I wanted to be in Montreal was

my graduate supervisor Robert Peele and

he knew what he was getting and we had a

great time I still work with him like I

had one of the best relationships with

Bob that I've ever had with anyone in my

life and it's lasted four decades and it

was because

like Bob's a very honest person we were

very different he's very practical he's

a very good administrator managerial

type although he's he's super smart he

had an exhaustive knowledge of the relevant

relevant

research psychology literature and I

came in you know flying on a mat of

psychoanalytic theory and philosophy and

religious ideas very very different

although we shared a real deep interest

in the practicalities of research and he

taught me how to fall in love with the

more scientific end of the research

distribution but the point I'm making is

that he knew he knew what he was getting

right from the beginning and so did I

and that worked like a charm there was

no re reason for any sort of subterfuge

and it turned out that our his talents

and mine dovetailed extremely well so

and we had a blast I loved working with

well like that's why we been working

together for 40 years I traveled all

over North America with because we also

started a business and uh it was great

it was

great the thing is you know if you tell

people who you are and an opportunity

opens up it opens up for you yes not for

this thing you've created this lie this

this story that Douglas Murray told me

about one of his first bosses at an

early newspaper that he worked at I

can't remember the gentleman's

name this guy is a legend within the

industry he's been working for a long

time he's accumulated a number of uh

haters and and fans and toward the back

end of his career as Douglas is starting

his he decides that he wants to release

a West End play about the life of Prince

Charles in rhyming

couplets adventurous as as West End

plays go and obviously there was all of

this scrutiny because he was this very

welln individual within the publishing

world and uh opening night by the

halftime interval there was no one left

in the entire Auditorium including the cast

cast

and this guy was devastated right and he

was mocked in the press and all the rest

of it apparently Douglas saw him shortly

afterward and asked him kindly he was

like look like what were you thinking

West End play about the life of Prince

Charles and [ __ ] rhyming couplets he

said well Douglas I followed my

instincts and instincts that may

sometimes Lead You Wrong mhm but they're

the only thing that's ever led you right

right right and that stuck with me

because yeah well well there there

there's something very relevant there

too on the instinctual front Okay so

things will beckon to you and call to

you and you'll have intuitions about

which pathway to take and you will in

all likelihood follow those because what

else do you have you have these orienting

orienting

instincts this is another reason why you don't

don't

lie CU if you lie and you practice lying

you pathologize your instincts and then

your intuitions lead you wrong and so

there's a sin that's laid out in the

gospels it's the sin against the Holy

Ghost and it's unforgivable and people

have been debating for like 2,000 years

about what this particular sin is but

it's something

like the pathologization of the

instincts that Orient you if you

sacrifice your relationship to the truth

you warp your vision and then you can't

see and then one day it'll be dark and

there'll be sharp things in the fall in

front of you and you'll wander right

into them because you've pathologized

your own Vision yeah you don't want to

lie because you you program yourself

falsely and then you automatically see

what isn't there and then of course the

world will slap you in the face

continually and you'll think oh my God

the world's such a pathological place

when the truth of the matter is is that

no you just keep running into things

that you refuse to see and then you

think well the world's made of nothing

but obstacles it's like well you put the

obstacles in your own path and you did

that by developing these complex

self-serving delusions a story that you

tell other people about who you are that

isn't true you're trying to lay out a

map that bears no relationship to

reality and you keep wondering why you

wander off the path and into a pit it's

like well how could it be otherwise if

see if you really un this people have

commented to me many times about my

bravery and I I I don't like that I it's

it's it's not

right I'm afraid of different things

than the typical person maybe that's a

good way of thinking about it I'm way

more afraid of the consequences of

saying something that's false or

wandering off the appropriate path than

I am of whatever consequences might come

for saying what I believe and doing what

I believe to be the case I'm way more

afraid of that you

know I've been reading the gospel of St

Matthew I'm I'm writing a book at the

moment called we who wrestle with God

and one of the things Christ says to

people continually is to not damage

their vision is to not

put that's the best way of putting it

don't olude your eye you can see what's

in front of you if you're willing to see

it and if you're willing to see it the

terrible OB many of the terrible

obstacles in life you can just walk

around but if you blind yourself

purposefully to follow your own narrow

self-serving delusion you're going to

run into terrible things and terrible

people and the terrible part of your own

soul all the time that's what you should

be afraid of well the best thing that

you can hope for if you do do that is to

fluke success living somebody else's

life right right great wonderful

yeah exactly you get to be you get to be

a successful fraud I remember this

documentary about Ron Jeremy I think

they called him the Hedgehog he was this

famous porn star I've seen a music video

with him in yeah yeah okay not one of

the world's most attractive people

physically and you know he lived in this

very interesting world he lived in this

world he was stopped constantly on the

street by people who thought Ron Jeremy

was a

hero right so he was in hell because

the people who admired him were the

people who

admired he was surrounded by the people

who thought that he was an avatar of of

success right and so he got what he

wanted I

suppose he had easy access to easy women

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wisdom and wisdom at checkout well let

me give you let me give you this this is

why I think the beginning of the incel

movement and the black pill movement was

born out of pick a partistry the origin

if you trace it back using internet

history of the incel blackpill uh

ideology was a I think it a subreddit or

a website called Pua hate pickup artist

hate and what it was was a group of men

who had been through the pipeline of

pickup Artistry yeah and come out the

other side with a very jaded and even

more jaded view of the world even more

jaded yes and I'll tell you why so what

happened Happ s if a guy learns old

school mid2 norts pickup

Artistry is you realize that there is a

particular set of actions a script that

you can run which makes it more likely

that a woman is going to go to bed with

you right right right right but what you

realize when you do that as you learn

how to neg and do Kino escalation and

tell them that story about the [ __ ]

fight outside or whatever your script is

that you're running you then begin to

see just how far away that person is

from the person that you actually show

up as right who you are and this

extravagant Persona that you need to

convolute into existence in order to get

this woman into bed makes you feel worse

even F the gap between where you are and

what you have to do in order to achieve

the thing that you want now what you

don't realize is that there are a

million other ways that you could become

sufficiently Charming to get this person

to like you this is by actually doing it

example this is just one that happens to

be robust and easy enough to write down

in a book and easy enough for it's

basically a form of scripted

psychopathy so what a psychopath does is

feain competence right so most

psychopaths are very emotionally stable

and so one of

the early stage markers for competence

is self-possession and calmness and so

if you're not an anxious person you've

got an edge on that already and most

psychopaths are very high in emotional

stability and so they look confident

because confident people tend not to be

that nervous like if you're doing

something you're expert at well you're

not nervous because you know how to do

it okay so the lack of nervousness is a

hint to competence well you can feain

that you can feain competence you can

feain confidence that's what the pickup

artists teach now I would say there's

even some utility and what they do right

because if you're dependent and bitter

and resentful and charmless and self

self

destructive and nervous and socially

unskilled the probability that you're

going to be successful with women is

very very low okay so you should be

other than who you are now if you start

putting on this Persona then you could

think about that as a new suit of

clothes and you could learn through

through that how to fill in the gaps

take it until you make it absolutely

absolutely but if you take on that

without doing the effort necessary to

integrate that in a genuine way then all

that's happening is that you're you're

being rewarded for being fake yeah right

and that's part of the problem with that

too is that you're practicing learning

how to manipulate people in a

psychopathic way and if you practice

that of course you're going to become

jaded like there's nothing more jaded

than a psychopath

I mean that's that's the ultimate

extreme of jadedness and if you practice

manipulating especially if the women

happen to be reasonably good women if

you practice manipulating them and

you're successful then you're learning

to be one you're learning to be one

horrible person now you know as your

completely useless unproductive and

undesirable former self you weren't

exactly Stellar to begin with but

substituting psychopathy for that what

sort of like substituting cynicism for

naivity now that's a complex problem I

mean part of the reason that people like

Andrew Tate are so attractive to young

guys is because they do put up that

confident that false confidence Tate's a

complicated guy because it's not all

false you know real people are

complicated the way that like villains

in in comic books

aren't hates a fighter it's clearly the

case that he's got a certain degree of

physical bravery that's real all

right there's an element of what he says

that's very attractive to bed bedroom

basement dwelling losers because he's at

least there out in the world you know

taken the blows and he's got a fast car

and he's flashy and he's attractive to

women but a lot of what he's done

especially with women doesn't just

border into the psychopathic it crosses

the line and that's not a good model

it's not an optimal model for people who

are trying to progress but it's a

strange thing because just as cynicism

is an improvement over naivity right the

capacity to be dark is an improvement

over the lack of ability to be dark at

all and so Tate is attractive in the way

that the shadow beckons to people who

are undeveloped right because it does

it's like you're you're neurotic and

you're dependent and you're repressed

because you're immature and harmless well one way out of that is to stop

well one way out of that is to stop being harmless and one of the things you

being harmless and one of the things you can say about Tate is that he's not

can say about Tate is that he's not harmless right well that's that's a it's

harmless right well that's that's a it's a virtue now it's a virtue that has to

a virtue now it's a virtue that has to be bracketed it's like cynicism is a

be bracketed it's like cynicism is a virtue compared to naivity but it's not

virtue compared to naivity but it's not it's not virtuous in and of itself it's

it's not virtuous in and of itself it's a step on the way and so maybe you can

a step on the way and so maybe you can learn how to Fain confidence and you can

learn how to Fain confidence and you can learn how that works and maybe that's an

learn how that works and maybe that's an improvement I had a guy in my clinical

improvement I had a guy in my clinical practice who got involved with the

practice who got involved with the pickup artist community and he told me

pickup artist community and he told me taught me a lot about it and one of the

taught me a lot about it and one of the exercises that their initiates had to do

exercises that their initiates had to do was to go out and ask 50 women for their

was to go out and ask 50 women for their phone number in one day and that's a

phone number in one day and that's a great exercise you know and I'm not

great exercise you know and I'm not exposure therapy approach anxiety

exposure therapy approach anxiety absolutely absolutely getting over your

absolutely absolutely getting over your fear of rejection right and 50 times

fear of rejection right and 50 times they'll do that because you're going to

they'll do that because you're going to get rejected the vast majority of times

get rejected the vast majority of times likely 50 times although generally that

likely 50 times although generally that wasn't people's experience you know if

wasn't people's experience you know if if they were even vaguely skilled they'd

if they were even vaguely skilled they'd at least get a false phone number out of

at least get a false phone number out of the deal but then they could they learn

the deal but then they could they learn that the rejection wasn't as

that the rejection wasn't as catastrophic as they thought but more

catastrophic as they thought but more importantly they learned that they could

importantly they learned that they could continue moving forward in the face of

continue moving forward in the face of rejection so the thing that it makes me

rejection so the thing that it makes me think about there is intellectual

think about there is intellectual humility and how tightly people hold on

humility and how tightly people hold on to their beliefs that if you believe

to their beliefs that if you believe that you are always is going to be right

that you are always is going to be right that there is nothing to learn outside

that there is nothing to learn outside of you and that any kind of admission

of you and that any kind of admission that you might be wrong is tant amount

that you might be wrong is tant amount to destruction it does exactly the same

to destruction it does exactly the same thing you need to and it goes back to uh

thing you need to and it goes back to uh asking stupid questions being prepared

asking stupid questions being prepared to ask the stupid questions and look not

to ask the stupid questions and look not like the most informed person in the

like the most informed person in the room but also importantly nowhere near

room but also importantly nowhere near the most stupid person in the room

the most stupid person in the room because you're the one that's asking the

because you're the one that's asking the question well the stupidest person in

question well the stupidest person in the room is the person who doesn't know

the room is the person who doesn't know and won't ask or even worse who doesn't

and won't ask or even worse who doesn't know and won't ask and acts like they

know and won't ask and acts like they know that's not good at all yeah there's

know that's not good at all yeah there's a from your see that's part of that idea

a from your see that's part of that idea that you should love your enemy so you

that you should love your enemy so you might say well why should you do that

might say well why should you do that well your enemy is going to be your

well your enemy is going to be your harshest

harshest critic now it's possible that if you

critic now it's possible that if you have a very good enemy that he will show

have a very good enemy that he will show you flaws in your character that you

you flaws in your character that you didn't know were there and so that's a

didn't know were there and so that's a it's a

it's a very it's a very strange way of looking

very it's a very strange way of looking at the world to think that you should

at the world to think that you should welcome an attack you should it and this

welcome an attack you should it and this is but this is right it yeah I'm saying

is but this is right it yeah I'm saying that with all due caution let's

that with all due caution let's say the most the more vicious the

attack the more of your potential hidden flaws might be revealed have you found

flaws might be revealed have you found that to be true oh definitely but I've

that to be true oh definitely but I've also found

that the attacks force you to contend with it to to see if it's there right to

with it to to see if it's there right to to test it I suppose the attacks that

to test it I suppose the attacks that have come after me that have been most

have come after me that have been most successful they they're almost always

successful they they're almost always journalists and they're usually British

journalists and they're usually British female journalists but not always we

female journalists but not always we produce a a nation of hardhead

produce a a nation of hardhead journalists yeah well and faith in

journalists yeah well and faith in journalists is the lowest in the UK and

journalists is the lowest in the UK and anywhere in the western world and I can

anywhere in the western world and I can see why you know but there's some

see why you know but there's some Advantage there's some real advantage to

Advantage there's some real advantage to facing someone it's a Pharisee problem

facing someone it's a Pharisee problem in in the

in in the gospels Christ was always contending

gospels Christ was always contending with these Pharisees and what the

with these Pharisees and what the Pharisees were always trying to do was

Pharisees were always trying to do was to lay a verbal trap for him so is a

to lay a verbal trap for him so is a Pharisee a person Pharisee was a was a

Pharisee a person Pharisee was a was a Jewish sect okay and the Pharisees were

Jewish sect okay and the Pharisees were very legalistic in their interpretation

very legalistic in their interpretation of Mosaic law and so they were sort of

of Mosaic law and so they were sort of they were hypocritical the way they're

they were hypocritical the way they're portrayed in the gospel S as they're

portrayed in the gospel S as they're hypocritical by the book moralists and

hypocritical by the book moralists and part of what and most of their morality

part of what and most of their morality was for show they like to pray in public

was for show they like to pray in public they like to be seen being holy at least

they like to be seen being holy at least that's the criticisms that are levied

that's the criticisms that are levied against them and what they're always

against them and what they're always trying to do in the gospel accounts is

trying to do in the gospel accounts is to lay a verbal trap for Christ so that

to lay a verbal trap for Christ so that they can expose him as a heretic and

they can expose him as a heretic and kill them right so every single thing

kill them right so every single thing they say is a snare of some sort and

they say is a snare of some sort and there's lots of journalists like that

there's lots of journalists like that Nelly Bulls who wrote an article about

Nelly Bulls who wrote an article about me for the New York Times which was a

me for the New York Times which was a very devastating article in many ways

very devastating article in many ways and

and very Serpentine and and

very Serpentine and and subtle she 3 years

subtle she 3 years later she wrote another article about

later she wrote another article about what it was like to work for the New

what it was like to work for the New York Times when she was working there

York Times when she was working there and the tricks that the journalists

and the tricks that the journalists played including her and she said that

played including her and she said that the game was to devastate someone else's

the game was to devastate someone else's reputation in the attempt to boost yours

reputation in the attempt to boost yours right so you could think about it as a

right so you could think about it as a game of comparative moral standing so

game of comparative moral standing so the journalist's trick is to trick you

the journalist's trick is to trick you into saying something that will end your

into saying something that will end your career essentially their social status

career essentially their social status stands on the shoulders of yours AB

stands on the shoulders of yours AB absolutely absolutely and so now the the

absolutely absolutely and so now the the advantage to being in a situation like

advantage to being in a situation like that is that you have to step if you

that is that you have to step if you step extremely

step extremely carefully and you're fortunate then you

carefully and you're fortunate then you evade the traps and then the interview

evade the traps and then the interview tilts hard in your favor yeah and so the

tilts hard in your favor yeah and so the most the interviews that have done me

most the interviews that have done me the most good in the long run were the

the most good in the long run were the two interviews that were most hostile

two interviews that were most hostile one

one by channels 4 Griffin Kathy Kathy new

by channels 4 Griffin Kathy Kathy new Kathy Newman Cathy Griffin and Kathy

Kathy Newman Cathy Griffin and Kathy Kathy at least had a sense of humor

Kathy at least had a sense of humor another one by Helen Lewis who had no

another one by Helen Lewis who had no sense of humor at all and doesn't seem

sense of humor at all and doesn't seem to have learned anything at all in the

to have learned anything at all in the interim but I think that I think that

interim but I think that I think that one has 80 million views now twice as

one has 80 million views now twice as many as the Kathy Newman interview like

many as the Kathy Newman interview like it just keeps racking up views and it

it just keeps racking up views and it was because Helen

was because Helen Lewis she has like 50 tricks or 100

Lewis she has like 50 tricks or 100 tricks Kathy had like four you know and

tricks Kathy had like four you know and they were pretty blunt and she had a

they were pretty blunt and she had a sense of humor about them but Helen

sense of humor about them but Helen Lewis she was just all tricks and lots

Lewis she was just all tricks and lots of them and smart you know and it's

of them and smart you know and it's quite something to talk to someone who's

quite something to talk to someone who's quite smart and quite educated but all

quite smart and quite educated but all tricks and so but how does it feel

tricks and so but how does it feel looking back on those too they were very

looking back on those too they were very formative time it was kind of the

formative time it was kind of the inflection point or one of the

inflection point or one of the inflection points I suppose for yourself

inflection points I suppose for yourself as well yeah how does it feel looking

as well yeah how does it feel looking back on that I remember you said at the

back on that I remember you said at the time it took you many days to recover

time it took you many days to recover from that kind of cantankerous sort of

from that kind of cantankerous sort of adversarial interview is that does that

adversarial interview is that does that seem like a different lifetime or is

seem like a different lifetime or is that still very much sort of with you

that still very much sort of with you well I'm a lot healthier than I was then

well I'm a lot healthier than I was then so those sorts of things wouldn't have

so those sorts of things wouldn't have the same effect on me now as they did

the same effect on me now as they did then because I was Ill it took me a long

then because I was Ill it took me a long time to recover from you know serious

time to recover from you know serious bout I mean the first time I talked to

bout I mean the first time I talked to Sam Harris not that Sam played tricks

Sam Harris not that Sam played tricks like I like Sam and we've had very

like I like Sam and we've had very productive

productive conversations I was so ill when the

conversations I was so ill when the first time I talked to Sam that I could

first time I talked to Sam that I could barely sit in my chair talking to Sam

barely sit in my chair talking to Sam Harris makes you ill that's the No No

Harris makes you ill that's the No No not not at all no no Sam and I have had

not not at all no no Sam and I have had very productive conversations that was

very productive conversations that was another good example I suppose of the

another good example I suppose of the utility of an adversarial conversation

utility of an adversarial conversation yeah you know I mean Sam comes to a

yeah you know I mean Sam comes to a conversation like that pretty well armed

conversation like that pretty well armed but it's very helpful because it forces

but it's very helpful because it forces you to look in nooks and crannies that

you to look in nooks and crannies that you might not have looked in and to be

you might not have looked in and to be crystal clear to the degree that that's

crystal clear to the degree that that's possible about what you're actually

possible about what you're actually saying the idea of of loving your enemy

saying the idea of of loving your enemy is something I've been playing with a

is something I've been playing with a little bit recently there been I guess

little bit recently there been I guess my platform's getting to the level now

my platform's getting to the level now where uh there's a reason for someone to

where uh there's a reason for someone to have a bullseye pointed at least

have a bullseye pointed at least remotely in my direction because there's

remotely in my direction because there's no point in trying to take somebody down

no point in trying to take somebody down that's got nothing that's got no status

that's got nothing that's got no status why would you why would you invest the

why would you why would you invest the time your the step that you're going to

time your the step that you're going to get in terms of your status standing on

get in terms of your status standing on their shoulders is so small that no one

their shoulders is so small that no one so it's a backhanded compliment yeah in

so it's a backhanded compliment yeah in some ways yeah um but you're right man

some ways yeah um but you're right man some of the some of the criticisms that

some of the some of the criticisms that I've got I was reminded by a friend

I've got I was reminded by a friend recently about this uh have been some of

recently about this uh have been some of the best inflection points very

the best inflection points very uncomfortable and to see it as a gift to

uncomfortable and to see it as a gift to think about that thing as a gift it's

think about that thing as a gift it's like I know that you weren't doing this

like I know that you weren't doing this to make me better yeah I know that you

to make me better yeah I know that you weren't doing this to try and to try and

weren't doing this to try and to try and benefit me and yet and yet yeah in

benefit me and yet and yet yeah in reflection it's like Alchemy it's like

reflection it's like Alchemy it's like how Rory Sutherland calls it Alchemy

how Rory Sutherland calls it Alchemy taking something that was bad I I had

taking something that was bad I I had this reflection as well well we we've

this reflection as well well we we've learned my family's learned like when

learned my family's learned like when when a public attack occurs there's a

when a public attack occurs there's a massive opportunity nested in it if you

massive opportunity nested in it if you can reorient it's like okay this is bad

can reorient it's like okay this is bad this is vicious this is not this does

this is vicious this is not this does not look good and maybe it could take me

not look good and maybe it could take me out take us out is there a way is there

out take us out is there a way is there a way we can play with this that will

a way we can play with this that will not only neutralize it but twist it in

not only neutralize it but twist it in the other direction I think the thing we

the other direction I think the thing we did that was most effective on that side

did that was most effective on that side of things was when I was written into

of things was when I was written into Captain America as I spoke to you that

Captain America as I spoke to you that day I spoke to you that day that it

day I spoke to you that day that it happened yeah the magical magical super

happened yeah the magical magical super Nazi floating Nazi or whatever yeah yeah

Nazi floating Nazi or whatever yeah yeah yeah well it was shocking right it was

yeah well it was shocking right it was it was very shocking and then Olivia

it was very shocking and then Olivia wild yeah the that was shocking too yeah

wild yeah the that was shocking too yeah yeah there's a Litany of yes yes well

yeah there's a Litany of yes yes well and it it became increasingly

and it it became increasingly Preposterous and and the Olivia wild

Preposterous and and the Olivia wild episode was one of the that was so

episode was one of the that was so Preposterous that it was almost

Preposterous that it was almost immediately laugh mercifully that film

immediately laugh mercifully that film was so badly made and I'm pretty sure

was so badly made and I'm pretty sure that she'd cast her boyfriend as one of

that she'd cast her boyfriend as one of the got rid of someone that was super

the got rid of someone that was super competent and put somebody in that was

competent and put somebody in that was pretty incompetent uh and I think that

pretty incompetent uh and I think that that kind of caused it to flub but yeah

that kind of caused it to flub but yeah man the the the thing I've ended up

man the the the thing I've ended up becoming really good friends with one of

becoming really good friends with one of my harshest critics it's so strange uh

my harshest critics it's so strange uh and yet makes complete sense afterward

and yet makes complete sense afterward uh you had a how did you end up making

uh you had a how did you end up making friends so I got criticized uh by a pair

friends so I got criticized uh by a pair of podcasters who um do this they they

of podcasters who um do this they they kind of take down or or they have a very

kind of take down or or they have a very critical eye of much of the of the

critical eye of much of the of the podcasting world and they they did an

podcasting world and they they did an episode about an episode that I'd done

episode about an episode that I'd done and have a right of reply thing oh yeah

and have a right of reply thing oh yeah uh Sam's been on to do it uh who else

uh Sam's been on to do it uh who else has been on to do it I I did it couple

has been on to do it I I did it couple of other Constantin kiss being to do and

of other Constantin kiss being to do and um I I went on and there was a bit of

um I I went on and there was a bit of like I listened to their show I think

like I listened to their show I think it's a very Illuminating way to see how

it's a very Illuminating way to see how people that have a different perspective

people that have a different perspective about what's going on in in your world

about what's going on in in your world see it and uh I was like yeah I got the

see it and uh I was like yeah I got the opportunity to go on and have a

opportunity to go on and have a conversation and I did and I found them

conversation and I did and I found them to both be like way more Charming than I

to both be like way more Charming than I thought that they were going to be and

thought that they were going to be and uh I've ended up both Chris and Matt all

uh I've ended up both Chris and Matt all Matt l so but with Chris like we must

Matt l so but with Chris like we must speak once a month every couple of weeks

speak once a month every couple of weeks we one of us will just ring and we'll

we one of us will just ring and we'll catch up about what's been going on in

catch up about what's been going on in the world and he has a very different

the world and he has a very different sort of worldview to me he lives in a

sort of worldview to me he lives in a different area of the world he's a a a

different area of the world he's a a a psychologist studying religion I think

psychologist studying religion I think and and uh sacred rituals and stuff like

and and uh sacred rituals and stuff like that rituals rather than

that rituals rather than religion and now he points out blind

religion and now he points out blind spots that I don't see and that one

spots that I don't see and that one particular

particular instance was and it was really

instance was and it was really uncomfortable because this was still

uncomfortable because this was still this was three years ago or something

this was three years ago or something now maybe and I'm still you super

now maybe and I'm still you super uncomfortable about it and oh my God

uncomfortable about it and oh my God these people are going to take me down

these people are going to take me down and they're both academics and they're

and they're both academics and they're really really well educated and they're

really really well educated and they're going to be smart and they're going to

going to be smart and they're going to say things that make me look silly and I

say things that make me look silly and I said things that made me look silly and

said things that made me look silly and picked a particular episode where blah

picked a particular episode where blah blah blah and yet in reflection it's

blah blah and yet in reflection it's been that one instance and the

been that one instance and the subsequent rumination about it was one

subsequent rumination about it was one of the biggest inflection points for me

of the biggest inflection points for me going

going from having blind spots that I hadn't

from having blind spots that I hadn't seen to that and I I almost think that

seen to that and I I almost think that the degree of discomfort that I went

the degree of discomfort that I went through was mandatory because had I not

through was mandatory because had I not felt so much like fear and anxiety and

felt so much like fear and anxiety and embarrassment about the fact that I'm

embarrassment about the fact that I'm going to it's going to be out there and

going to it's going to be out there and there's going to be all this focus and

there's going to be all this focus and attention in not a nice way and there'll

attention in not a nice way and there'll be tweets and all the rest of the

be tweets and all the rest of the stuff that was sufficient uncomfortable

stuff that was sufficient uncomfortable to force me to actually genuinely look

to force me to actually genuinely look at the things that I was doing that I

at the things that I was doing that I was getting wrong and I'm sure that

was getting wrong and I'm sure that there's a million things I'm still

there's a million things I'm still getting wrong but yeah it was it was as

getting wrong but yeah it was it was as much a gift as it could be we'll get

much a gift as it could be we'll get back to talking to Jordan in one minute

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first box that's drink LM nt.com slod wisdom here's another thing I spoke

slod wisdom here's another thing I spoke to David gogins about this last year

to David gogins about this last year about how uh I was bullied as a kid and

about how uh I was bullied as a kid and I was quite unpopular in school and I

I was quite unpopular in school and I was an only child so I didn't really

was an only child so I didn't really have many people to back me up you know

have many people to back me up you know in the schoolyard or whatever and I for

in the schoolyard or whatever and I for a long time had a chip on my shoulder

a long time had a chip on my shoulder about the kids that mistreated me in

about the kids that mistreated me in school as you might

school as you might expect and then I got toward you know

expect and then I got toward you know maybe a few years ago and I really

maybe a few years ago and I really really started to reflect on it and

really started to reflect on it and realized that so many of the things that

realized that so many of the things that I valued in myself were the light side

I valued in myself were the light side of something dark that had been created

of something dark that had been created during that time in school so um my

during that time in school so um my complete preparedness to just spend time

complete preparedness to just spend time on my own means that I don't mind about

on my own means that I don't mind about moving out to a country where I don't

moving out to a country where I don't know anybody and trying to make this

know anybody and trying to make this podcast thing work or spending hours and

podcast thing work or spending hours and hours working or researching or

hours working or researching or recording podcasts or doing intros or

recording podcasts or doing intros or whatever it is like all of those things

whatever it is like all of those things um not having a super tight social

um not having a super tight social network as a kid meant that I wasn't

network as a kid meant that I wasn't beholden to anybody when I grew up that

beholden to anybody when I grew up that I I didn't feel the need to have as much

I I didn't feel the need to have as much uh um support as I go along to do stuff

uh um support as I go along to do stuff now other sides of it haven't been so

now other sides of it haven't been so great because I still seek validation I

great because I still seek validation I still a lot of validation because that

still a lot of validation because that was something that I was missing as a

was something that I was missing as a kid um but yeah realizing not only you

kid um but yeah realizing not only you probably wouldn't be here if it wasn't

probably wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the things that you went through

for the things that you went through okay there's step one and then step two

okay there's step one and then step two is and I'm quite grateful for what I've

is and I'm quite grateful for what I've done and then step three would be

done and then step three would be something like wow I'm proud of myself

something like wow I'm proud of myself for having turned something that was

for having turned something that was negative into something that's positive

negative into something that's positive but then another level above that would

but then another level above that would be

be wow so maybe I should be thankful yeah

wow so maybe I should be thankful yeah right well we know we were talking

right well we know we were talking earlier in the podcast about what is the

earlier in the podcast about what is the appropriate attitude towards the future

appropriate attitude towards the future and I would say well we could put past

and I would say well we could put past present and future in the same bin say

present and future in the same bin say well one of the things that you want to

well one of the things that you want to do is practice gratitude that's one of

do is practice gratitude that's one of the primary religious rituals you might

the primary religious rituals you might say is the practice of gratitude and you

say is the practice of gratitude and you might say well my life is so horrible do

might say well my life is so horrible do I have to be grateful for and I would

I have to be grateful for and I would say that's

say that's that's for better worse that's still a

that's for better worse that's still a form of

form of blindness right I mean people can have

blindness right I mean people can have very very difficult situations can be in

very very difficult situations can be in very very difficult situations and it's

very very difficult situations and it's in those difficult situations where the

in those difficult situations where the search for gratitude becomes something

search for gratitude becomes something that is by necessity deeper and more

that is by necessity deeper and more difficult but that doesn't mean it's not

difficult but that doesn't mean it's not appropriate you know and there is there

appropriate you know and there is there is a very tight association between

is a very tight association between loving your enemy and being

loving your enemy and being grateful in spite of the terrible things

grateful in spite of the terrible things that occur in your life I've been

that occur in your life I've been writing about the Book of Job and job is

writing about the Book of Job and job is a story of unjust suffering

a story of unjust suffering fundamentally God deems job a good man

fundamentally God deems job a good man so we have it on God's word that job is

so we have it on God's word that job is actually a good man and then all hell

actually a good man and then all hell breaks loose partly because God makes a

breaks loose partly because God makes a bet with Satan which is you know a hell

bet with Satan which is you know a hell of a thing to do and says do your worst

of a thing to do and says do your worst he's not going to turn on me no matter

he's not going to turn on me no matter what you do and so job despite his

what you do and so job despite his torment he becomes very ill he loses

torment he becomes very ill he loses everything he has his friends he becomes

everything he has his friends he becomes ill in a way that's disfiguring his

ill in a way that's disfiguring his friends come around and laugh at him and

friends come around and laugh at him and tell him that he's a bad man and that's

tell him that he's a bad man and that's why all these terrible things have been

why all these terrible things have been happening to him and it's brutal and job

happening to him and it's brutal and job refuses

refuses to lose faith in himself he says look

to lose faith in himself he says look I'm I'm not perfect I'm but as far as

I'm I'm not perfect I'm but as far as men go I've done what I should do

men go I've done what I should do and it I'm not being punished in some

and it I'm not being punished in some manner that's obviously related to my

manner that's obviously related to my sin it's more like the random play

sin it's more like the random play of tragic forces in the world I'm not

of tragic forces in the world I'm not going to lose faith in myself no matter

going to lose faith in myself no matter what and I'm also not going to his wife

what and I'm also not going to his wife says shake your fist at God curse him

says shake your fist at God curse him and die because things have gone so

and die because things have gone so badly for job she thinks that's all

badly for job she thinks that's all that's left to him and he refuses to do

that's left to him and he refuses to do that so he maintains

that so he maintains Faith regardless of what's happened to

Faith regardless of what's happened to him and that's really the moral of the

him and that's really the moral of the story of job which is that you are

story of job which is that you are morally obligated to maintain Faith no

morally obligated to maintain Faith no matter what happens to you and there's a

matter what happens to you and there's a practical side to that so imagine that

practical side to that so imagine that God and Satan conspire against you

God and Satan conspire against you there'll be times in your life where it

there'll be times in your life where it feels like that's happening and then

feels like that's happening and then imagine that your reaction to that is to

imagine that your reaction to that is to become bitter and resentful and hostile

become bitter and resentful and hostile well then whatever hell you're in merely

well then whatever hell you're in merely as a consequence of the Confluence of

as a consequence of the Confluence of tragic events you have opened a whole

tragic events you have opened a whole other hell underneath it the hell of

other hell underneath it the hell of bitterness and resentment and

bitterness and resentment and ingratitude and well and that turns into

ingratitude and well and that turns into the desire for Revenge very very quickly

the desire for Revenge very very quickly you think things are bad just because

you think things are bad just because they're bad you wait till you see how

they're bad you wait till you see how bad they can become if you allow

bad they can become if you allow yourself to be corrupted by your unjust

yourself to be corrupted by your unjust suffering right and so it's a and I I I

suffering right and so it's a and I I I do think that this is the most practical

do think that this is the most practical possible advice that can be given to

possible advice that can be given to people which is that you are morally

people which is that you are morally required to maintain Faith to aim up and

required to maintain Faith to aim up and to treat other people the way you would

to treat other people the way you would want to be treated no matter what's

want to be treated no matter what's happened to you you know and that's a

happened to you you know and that's a hell of a thing to say and you know you

hell of a thing to say and you know you might say well that's impossible PE some

might say well that's impossible PE some people have such brutal lives that

people have such brutal lives that they're destined to be corrupt but I

they're destined to be corrupt but I would say that's not true like I've met

would say that's not true like I've met many many people particularly in my

many many people particularly in my clinical practice who had lives that

clinical practice who had lives that were so brutal that you couldn't even

were so brutal that you couldn't even listen to them without it like breaking

listen to them without it like breaking you into pieces brutal brutal childhoods

you into pieces brutal brutal childhoods of of a depth of malevolence you can

of of a depth of malevolence you can hardly conceptualize who decided despite

hardly conceptualize who decided despite that that they were going to aim up and

that that they were going to aim up and they were going to maintain faith in

they were going to maintain faith in themselves and the world and so it's

themselves and the world and so it's like that's on the table for people it

like that's on the table for people it seems like an odd Paradox that the

seems like an odd Paradox that the people who have brought up under lives

people who have brought up under lives of the most privileged uh often the ones

of the most privileged uh often the ones that have the most complaints about the

that have the most complaints about the world and people who have been brought

world and people who have been brought up in deprivation a lot of the time are

up in deprivation a lot of the time are able to be perfectly in gratitude seems

able to be perfectly in gratitude seems very strange that that that's the way

very strange that that that's the way yeah well

yeah well I

I having so one of the things I saw at the

having so one of the things I saw at the University I saw the faculty members my

University I saw the faculty members my peers retreat in the face of the

peers retreat in the face of the advancement of the administration over

advancement of the administration over like three decades to the point where

like three decades to the point where the universities really became corrupted

the universities really became corrupted and it didn't really happen at Harvard

and it didn't really happen at Harvard when I was there in the 1990s although

when I was there in the 1990s although it was starting to fray around the edges

it was starting to fray around the edges slightly but I really watched it at the

slightly but I really watched it at the University of Toronto in the 20 years I

University of Toronto in the 20 years I was there the administration kept making

was there the administration kept making demands on us and every time they made a

demands on us and every time they made a demand we would fold every time 10,000

demand we would fold every time 10,000 micro Retreats so then the

micro Retreats so then the administrators took over the university

administrators took over the university and then the woke types took over the

and then the woke types took over the administr ation and that was that well

administr ation and that was that well the reason what I saw my faculty members

the reason what I saw my faculty members do the academics that I worked with is

do the academics that I worked with is that this is how the corruption starts

that this is how the corruption starts it's like when you're an undergraduate

it's like when you're an undergraduate you write down what you think the

you write down what you think the professor wants to hear to get the grade

professor wants to hear to get the grade and then you're a graduate student and

and then you're a graduate student and you you have to let's say get along with

you you have to let's say get along with your professors and your supervisor you

your professors and your supervisor you have to tell them what you think they

have to tell them what you think they want to hear so that you can get your

want to hear so that you can get your PhD and then maybe you are on the

PhD and then maybe you are on the academic track and you're an assistant

academic track and you're an assistant professor there's three levels of being

professor there's three levels of being a professor you're not tenured as an

a professor you're not tenured as an assistant so you really can't say what

assistant so you really can't say what you think or do what you think you

you think or do what you think you should do then because you have to get

should do then because you have to get tenured and then when you're tenured

tenured and then when you're tenured well you're not a full Professor yet and

well you're not a full Professor yet and so you don't speak then and back in the

so you don't speak then and back in the back of your mind you have this idea

back of your mind you have this idea well at some point I'll have enough

well at some point I'll have enough security so that I'll be able to tell

security so that I'll be able to tell the truth but that's based on this weird

the truth but that's based on this weird idea that the courage to tell the truth

idea that the courage to tell the truth is based on

is based on security well courage isn't based on

security well courage isn't based on security that's a stupid Theory you're

security that's a stupid Theory you're not courageous if there's no risk so

not courageous if there's no risk so your notion is you'll be

your notion is you'll be courageous when there's zero risk well

courageous when there's zero risk well obviously that's a contradiction in

obviously that's a contradiction in terms you're only courageous if there's

terms you're only courageous if there's a risk and not only that by the time

a risk and not only that by the time you've sacrificed your word for illusory

you've sacrificed your word for illusory sec security for 15 years there's

sec security for 15 years there's nothing left of you that's true you've

nothing left of you that's true you've already that's gone a long time ago you

already that's gone a long time ago you you probably look back at the former

you probably look back at the former self who was naive and thought that you

self who was naive and thought that you could say what you think as

could say what you think as just well you're bit you're cynical

just well you're bit you're cynical about it you know that person just

about it you know that person just didn't know how the way didn't know how

didn't know how the way didn't know how the world worked and then it's the same

the world worked and then it's the same thing that you pointed out the idea that

thing that you pointed out the idea that you become good because you

you become good because you have material plenty that's a silly idea

have material plenty that's a silly idea why would that be the case it's like the

why would that be the case it's like the same as assuming that all rich people

same as assuming that all rich people have got taste right there poor people

have got taste right there poor people who've got beautifully designed

who've got beautifully designed interiors and rich people who've got gy

interiors and rich people who've got gy messes right right right right there was

messes right right right right there was yeah well then the poor people are

yeah well then the poor people are actually

actually rich absolutely uh there's a a report I

rich absolutely uh there's a a report I wanted to bring this to you it's so

wanted to bring this to you it's so interesting so recent report was

interesting so recent report was released by The Harvard Graduate School

released by The Harvard Graduate School of Education detailing the drivers of

of Education detailing the drivers of anxiety for young adults aged 18 to 25

anxiety for young adults aged 18 to 25 34% reported feelings of loneliness 51%

34% reported feelings of loneliness 51% said achievement pressure negatively

said achievement pressure negatively impacted their mental health 58%

impacted their mental health 58% reported lacking meaning or purpose in

reported lacking meaning or purpose in their lives in the last month 50%

their lives in the last month 50% reported their mental health was

reported their mental health was negatively influenced by not knowing

negatively influenced by not knowing what to do with my life there has been

what to do with my life there has been much examination of the well-being of

much examination of the well-being of teens aged 14 to 17 not much has been

teens aged 14 to 17 not much has been known about those occupying the critical

known about those occupying the critical young adult years and yet young adults

young adult years and yet young adults report roughly twice the rates of

report roughly twice the rates of anxiety and depression as teens the

anxiety and depression as teens the young adults are not

young adults are not okay yeah I believe that I saw even with

okay yeah I believe that I saw even with my own kids that the the mo like when I

my own kids that the the mo like when I was a

was a kid probably the time between 13 and 15

kid probably the time between 13 and 15 was the most difficult transition but I

was the most difficult transition but I saw that become older by the time my

saw that become older by the time my kids my kids are 30 now basically by the

kids my kids are 30 now basically by the time my kids were young adults I could

time my kids were young adults I could see that that transition into adulthood

see that that transition into adulthood was the place where the difficulties

was the place where the difficulties were starting to

were starting to mount I think perversely that the

mount I think perversely that the therapeutic world has a fair bit to do

therapeutic world has a fair bit to do with this partly

with this partly because therapists who are

because therapists who are basically secular liberal

basically secular liberal Protestants that's a good way of

Protestants that's a good way of thinking about them tend to

thinking about them tend to conceptualize mental health as mental as

conceptualize mental health as mental as subjective right it's like mental health

subjective right it's like mental health is something you carry around in your

is something you carry around in your head like you carry around your identity

head like you carry around your identity that's why we have these ridiculous

that's why we have these ridiculous ideas that you can just Define your own

ideas that you can just Define your own identity I am whoever I say I am well

identity I am whoever I say I am well obviously you're not because other

obviously you're not because other people other people have to go along

people other people have to go along with your game they're buddy and they're

with your game they're buddy and they're either going to do that they're not

either going to do that they're not going to do it or they're going to do it

going to do it or they're going to do it voluntarily or they're going to do it by

voluntarily or they're going to do it by force if they're not going to do it

force if they're not going to do it you're screwed if you have to use Force

you're screwed if you have to use Force that's not going to work and if you want

that's not going to work and if you want them to do it voluntarily then it's not

them to do it voluntarily then it's not going to be all about you obviously even

going to be all about you obviously even no four-year-old can find someone to

no four-year-old can find someone to play with if he always gets to pick the

play with if he always gets to pick the game okay

game okay so why might young adults be lost well

so why might young adults be lost well part of it is that they're

part of it is that they're thinking I'm not trying to be judgmental

thinking I'm not trying to be judgmental of a whole generation it's a it's a form

of a whole generation it's a it's a form of

of thought your mental health isn't

thought your mental health isn't dependent on you that's not the right

dependent on you that's not the right way to think about

way to think about it you I don't think you can be mentally

it you I don't think you can be mentally healthy in the absence of a long-term

healthy in the absence of a long-term stable relationship so you have to be

stable relationship so you have to be married let's put let's let's make that

married let's put let's let's make that part of the precondition for successful

part of the precondition for successful adaptation as a young adult you have to

adaptation as a young adult you have to be married so you have to establish a

be married so you have to establish a relationship with someone that

relationship with someone that integrates sexuality that's there for

integrates sexuality that's there for the long run because there for the long

the long run because there for the long run is the same as

run is the same as Saye there for tomorrow they're for the

Saye there for tomorrow they're for the next minute that's not sanity that's

next minute that's not sanity that's impulsiveness that's aimlessness they're

impulsiveness that's aimlessness they're the same thing if it's what if it's all

the same thing if it's what if it's all about what you want right now or more

about what you want right now or more accurately all about what something in

accurately all about what something in you wants this moment that's the

you wants this moment that's the definition of immature Insanity you have

definition of immature Insanity you have to commit so you commit to someone else

to commit so you commit to someone else you commit to your family you commit to

you commit to your family you commit to your community like there are multiple

your community like there are multiple levels of identity that stretch out into

levels of identity that stretch out into the social world and voluntarily

the social world and voluntarily adopting those levels of hierarchical

adopting those levels of hierarchical responsibility gives you an identity it

responsibility gives you an identity it gives you a purpose it protects you from

gives you a purpose it protects you from anxiety it does that in all sorts of

anxiety it does that in all sorts of ways like you know you said earlier that

ways like you know you said earlier that one of the things you do is seek for

one of the things you do is seek for validation and you related that to

validation and you related that to uncomfortable experiences you had when

uncomfortable experiences you had when you were very young well

you were very young well it might not be precisely that you're

it might not be precisely that you're seeking for validation you might be

seeking for validation you might be properly investigating how you should be

properly investigating how you should be embedded in a social

embedded in a social hierarchy at every possible level it's

hierarchy at every possible level it's like well people think their mental

like well people think their mental health is something that they just carry

health is something that they just carry around in their head and that if they

around in their head and that if they just got the way they looked at the

just got the way they looked at the world right or if other people just

world right or if other people just played their game that all of a sudden

played their game that all of a sudden they'd be mentally healthy it's

they'd be mentally healthy it's like there's no difference between

like there's no difference between thinking about yourself and being

thinking about yourself and being miserable technically if you if you if

miserable technically if you if you if you look at you can you can

you look at you can you can group descriptive statements about

group descriptive statements about yourself

yourself statistically all the all the

statistically all the all the descriptive all the descriptors that are

descriptive all the descriptors that are reflective of self-consciousness load on

reflective of self-consciousness load on negative emotion can you not think about

negative emotion can you not think about yourself in a positive way

yourself in a positive way probably not really

probably not really not well let's take that

not well let's take that apart you like doing your podcast and

apart you like doing your podcast and you feel positive about it okay but your

you feel positive about it okay but your podcast isn't about

podcast isn't about you right so if you're thinking about

you right so if you're thinking about how you're of utility to a broad number

how you're of utility to a broad number of people you know maybe you would take

of people you know maybe you would take some satisfaction in that but that isn't

some satisfaction in that but that isn't exactly thinking about yourself is it

exactly thinking about yourself is it it's thinking about the relationship

it's thinking about the relationship you've established with other people and

you've established with other people and it's a relationship of responsibility

it's a relationship of responsibility why do you like your podcast you can

why do you like your podcast you can pursue what you're curious about but you

pursue what you're curious about but you wouldn't have to do that publicly okay

wouldn't have to do that publicly okay so why do you do it

so why do you do it publicly for a few reasons first one

publicly for a few reasons first one being that it keeps me accountable that

being that it keeps me accountable that was one of the main reasons that it kept

was one of the main reasons that it kept me accountable because I knew that if I

me accountable because I knew that if I didn't do it if I wasn't rigorous and

didn't do it if I wasn't rigorous and precise and uh aligned with what I'd

precise and uh aligned with what I'd said and done previously that is an

said and done previously that is an external eye that's watching keep okay

external eye that's watching keep okay okay so well that's very interesting so

okay so well that's very interesting so I would also say that's not exactly

I would also say that's not exactly about you that's about your ability to

about you that's about your ability to live to establish Harmony between what

live to establish Harmony between what you say and the way you act and the

you say and the way you act and the expectations that an increasingly Broad

expectations that an increasingly Broad Social Community has of you as a

Social Community has of you as a consequence of what you say and how you

consequence of what you say and how you act okay that's not about you that's

act okay that's not about you that's about your nesting in a social hierarchy

about your nesting in a social hierarchy right and so I think I think you can and

right and so I think I think you can and then you might say too well maybe you're

then you might say too well maybe you're thinking about yourself when you're

thinking about yourself when you're establishing an aim or a goal well not

establishing an aim or a goal well not if they're good aims or

if they're good aims or goals because if they're good aims or

goals because if they're good aims or goals and and I would say what good

goals and and I would say what good means technically is an aim or goal that

means technically is an aim or goal that will play out

will play out well in the medium to long

well in the medium to long term across a multitude of situations

term across a multitude of situations including many many people so the a

including many many people so the a solution that iterates across

solution that iterates across time that and that

time that and that is situation independent and that's

is situation independent and that's broadly socially inclusive is a better

broadly socially inclusive is a better aim right it's a higher aim because it

aim right it's a higher aim because it integrates more all right now you might

integrates more all right now you might want to be setting up aims and you might

want to be setting up aims and you might be pleased about how you're progressing

be pleased about how you're progressing in relation to those aims but if those

in relation to those aims but if those aims aren't don't have the

aims aren't don't have the characteristics that I just

characteristics that I just described

then if the Asim have the characteristics I just described they're

characteristics I just described they're not about you and then we could also ask

not about you and then we could also ask what do you mean about you exactly what

what do you mean about you exactly what you are you talking about here you know

you are you talking about here you know and so we play these identity games in

and so we play these identity games in the modern world that are making people

the modern world that are making people anxious and hopeless and one identity

anxious and hopeless and one identity game is I'm defined by my sexuality okay

game is I'm defined by my sexuality okay so let's take that I'm defined by my

so let's take that I'm defined by my sexuality okay but what do you mean by

sexuality okay but what do you mean by your sexuality exactly do you mean the

your sexuality exactly do you mean the opportunity to engage in sex like are

opportunity to engage in sex like are you reducing sexuality as such to the

you reducing sexuality as such to the act of sex okay let's say you are so now

act of sex okay let's say you are so now what you're telling me is that who you

what you're telling me is that who you are is who you are when you're sexually

are is who you are when you're sexually desirous that's what you've reduced

desirous that's what you've reduced yourself to but it's even more than that

yourself to but it's even more than that it's the kind of sexual desire that

it's the kind of sexual desire that wants gratification right now with no

wants gratification right now with no relationship whatsoever so not only have

relationship whatsoever so not only have you now reduced who you are to your

you now reduced who you are to your sexual desire you've reduced your sexual

sexual desire you've reduced your sexual desire to the minimal set of

desire to the minimal set of preconditions that would satisfy it well

preconditions that would satisfy it well then the first question that might come

then the first question that might come up there is why not just use porn it's a

up there is why not just use porn it's a lot simpler and the answer to that is

lot simpler and the answer to that is that is what people are doing well it's

that is what people are doing well it's no wonder that they're anxious and

no wonder that they're anxious and Lonesome and aimless because they've

Lonesome and aimless because they've they've reduced themselves to a

they've reduced themselves to a short-term desire they found the easiest

short-term desire they found the easiest possible way of gratifying that and

possible way of gratifying that and they've abandoned everything that would

they've abandoned everything that would be a much broader conceptualization of

be a much broader conceptualization of what sexuality would be if it was

what sexuality would be if it was embedded properly in well how about a

embedded properly in well how about a relationship to start with and I'm not

relationship to start with and I'm not just these aren't just opinions

just these aren't just opinions so there are two different strategies of

so there are two different strategies of reproduction broadly in the animal world

reproduction broadly in the animal world one is zero

one is zero investment fish m mosquitoes million

investment fish m mosquitoes million Offspring they all die but one right so

Offspring they all die but one right so you can reduce reproduction in

you can reduce reproduction in mosquitoes basically to sex and you make

mosquitoes basically to sex and you make a million mosquito Offspring all you

a million mosquito Offspring all you need is one to survive problem solved

need is one to survive problem solved okay on the opposite end of the spectrum

okay on the opposite end of the spectrum literally are human beings because we

literally are human beings because we have the longest dependency period of

have the longest dependency period of any animal by a large margin we have a

any animal by a large margin we have a high investment strategy sexual

high investment strategy sexual reproduction strategy so whatever sex is

reproduction strategy so whatever sex is for human beings

for human beings isn't you're off and that's over that's

isn't you're off and that's over that's not what it is for human beings it's

not what it is for human beings it's embedded in a relationship now you might

embedded in a relationship now you might say well we could pull sexuality out of

say well we could pull sexuality out of the relationship and just indulge in it

the relationship and just indulge in it for the pleasure okay so now let's

for the pleasure okay so now let's forget about all the other animals now

forget about all the other animals now we've got two types of human being we've

we've got two types of human being we've got the one night stand human being

got the one night stand human being repetitive one night stands and we've

repetitive one night stands and we've got the long-term committed relationship

got the long-term committed relationship human being and then we might ask okay

human being and then we might ask okay what are the personality characteristics

what are the personality characteristics of the people in those bins so let's go

of the people in those bins so let's go to the short-term one night stand

to the short-term one night stand sequential relationship types okay who

sequential relationship types okay who are they Psychopathic narcissistic

are they Psychopathic narcissistic mauian and sadistic all one night stand

people if they don't start out that way they're going to end that

they're going to end that way right because you can't use yourself

way right because you can't use yourself or other people for short-term

or other people for short-term gratification look the definition of a

gratification look the definition of a psychopath is someone who uses someone

psychopath is someone who uses someone for short-term

for short-term gratification okay so it's definitional

gratification okay so it's definitional right so and then you might say well I'm

right so and then you might say well I'm not like that I just like sex it's like

not like that I just like sex it's like yeah but if you practice that for five

yeah but if you practice that for five years you're not going to become what

years you're not going to become what you practice you know

and I talked to Russell Brand about this a little bit on and I can say this

a little bit on and I can say this because it was on his podcast so it's

because it was on his podcast so it's not like this is Secret you know Russell

not like this is Secret you know Russell had what Andrew Tate promises his

had what Andrew Tate promises his followers he had Fame he was

followers he had Fame he was charismatic and he had more or less

charismatic and he had more or less unlimited access to short-term sexual

unlimited access to short-term sexual gratification okay in combination with

gratification okay in combination with you know the chemicals that make that

you know the chemicals that make that even more likely alcohol and cocaine

even more likely alcohol and cocaine let's

say so what are the consequences well I asked him what were the consequences you

asked him what were the consequences you had this he said uh despair anxiety and

had this he said uh despair anxiety and hopelessness right but but not just that

hopelessness right but but not just that because you know Russell got himself in

because you know Russell got himself in trouble here month and a half ago just

trouble here month and a half ago just about took him out well it was his past

about took him out well it was his past coming back to haunt him like and he had

coming back to haunt him like and he had to scroll through his psyche and see you

to scroll through his psyche and see you know well in with all these short-term

know well in with all these short-term relationships these

relationships these short-term sexual gratification binges

short-term sexual gratification binges that I indulged in did I ever cross the

that I indulged in did I ever cross the line well the answer is well you're

line well the answer is well you're going to have like 200 encounters like

going to have like 200 encounters like that you're not going to cross the line

that you're not going to cross the line when you're drunk when you're on cocaine

when you're drunk when you're on cocaine you're going to cross a bunch of lines

you're going to cross a bunch of lines and then it's going to come back and

and then it's going to come back and haunt you and

so it's very interesting to see in our culture back to the hopelessness and

culture back to the hopelessness and despair that you were mentioning that's

despair that you were mentioning that's character in young adults life it's like

character in young adults life it's like well it's all about me that's the

well it's all about me that's the self-esteem movement but then me becomes

self-esteem movement but then me becomes it's all about what I want and then that

it's all about what I want and then that becomes it's all about what I want right

becomes it's all about what I want right now then it's it's what the lowest part

now then it's it's what the lowest part of me wants right now and to hell with

of me wants right now and to hell with everyone else it's like

everyone else it's like okay how are you going to play that game

okay how are you going to play that game without being desperate you're going to

without being desperate you're going to be desperate as soon as you start

be desperate as soon as you start playing that game and the other thing

playing that game and the other thing it's even worse than that because you're

it's even worse than that because you're going to end up with

going to end up with the Jeremy

the Jeremy the the the porn star problem anybody

the the the porn star problem anybody you're not going to be very happy about

you're not going to be very happy about being with the people who want to play

being with the people who want to play that game with you because they're not

that game with you because they're not going to be the people that are really

going to be the people that are really going to make you feel that life is

going to make you feel that life is worth living they're going to be the

worth living they're going to be the people especially on the female

people especially on the female side women who are willing to take

side women who are willing to take advantage of themselves for short-term

advantage of themselves for short-term sexual gratification those aren't happy

sexual gratification those aren't happy women they're usually damaged women and

women they're usually damaged women and if they're not damaged when they start

if they're not damaged when they start playing that game game they're going to

playing that game game they're going to be plenty damaged by the time they're

be plenty damaged by the time they're done with it the last time that we spoke

done with it the last time that we spoke me you talked about population Decline

me you talked about population Decline and the Census Bureau just released

and the Census Bureau just released today predicting that the US population

today predicting that the US population will decline for the first time ever by

will decline for the first time ever by the year 201100 after peaking in 2080 so

the year 201100 after peaking in 2080 so their estimates showed that the US

their estimates showed that the US population which is about 333 million at

population which is about 333 million at the moment is expected to reach 370 by

the moment is expected to reach 370 by 2080 but will be back down to 366 by

2080 but will be back down to 366 by 2100 and even immigration can't offset

2100 and even immigration can't offset this birth rate

this birth rate decline over the last two years do you

decline over the last two years do you think things have got better or worse

think things have got better or worse than you anticipated from birth rate and

than you anticipated from birth rate and marriage rate standpoint I think they're

marriage rate standpoint I think they're probably still getting

probably still getting worse uh and I think

worse uh and I think musk musk is one of the few people Elon

musk musk is one of the few people Elon Musk is one of the in case anybody was

Musk is one of the in case anybody was wondering um he's one of the few people

wondering um he's one of the few people who who's called out the danger of you

who who's called out the danger of you know a one child policy or the idea that

know a one child policy or the idea that we should decrease the population I

we should decrease the population I mean things that don't grow die but they

mean things that don't grow die but they die for all sorts of reasons and we

die for all sorts of reasons and we could we could tie this back to Identity

could we could tie this back to Identity you know what's my identity I could say

you know what's my identity I could say well it's how I feel about myself that's

well it's how I feel about myself that's that's the line that's used everywhere

that's the line that's used everywhere now you don't get to tell me who I am I

now you don't get to tell me who I am I know who I am I can I'm who I feel I am

know who I am I can I'm who I feel I am well first of all I don't even know what

well first of all I don't even know what you mean by feel like what the hell what

you mean by feel like what the hell what does that mean you're your emotional

does that mean you're your emotional state at the moment and you can just

state at the moment and you can just impose that on everybody that's your

impose that on everybody that's your theory is it that's the theory of a

theory is it that's the theory of a 2-year-old literally that's a very bad

2-year-old literally that's a very bad Theory

well where could your identity be other than that well one of my identities when

than that well one of my identities when I taught at Harvard was Professor

I taught at Harvard was Professor obviously and that was a good identity

obviously and that was a good identity but you know that wasn't exactly it

but you know that wasn't exactly it wasn't something I was carrying around

wasn't something I was carrying around in my head it was a pattern of

in my head it was a pattern of relationship that I had with a whole

relationship that I had with a whole bunch of people all my students right it

bunch of people all my students right it wasn't inside my head now there was a

wasn't inside my head now there was a concordance between my representation of

concordance between my representation of myself and how I was acting in the world

myself and how I was acting in the world and that concordance was the health it

and that concordance was the health it wasn't what I thought of myself you

like part of the reason that you can take some let's call it gratification

take some let's call it gratification from being a successful podcaster is

from being a successful podcaster is that you're actually a successful

that you're actually a successful podcast

podcast it's not in your head it's in 1.5

it's not in your head it's in 1.5 million subscribers it's how many

million subscribers it's how many podcasts have you done 700 okay so it's

podcasts have you done 700 okay so it's in 700 podcasts it's not something

in 700 podcasts it's not something you're carrying around in your head do

you're carrying around in your head do you remember I love the 42 Rules that

you remember I love the 42 Rules that created the 24 that you ended up coming

created the 24 that you ended up coming up with but there's one that you didn't

up with but there's one that you didn't use uh if you have to choose be the one

use uh if you have to choose be the one who does things right not the one who is

who does things right not the one who is seen to do things exactly absolutely I

seen to do things exactly absolutely I love that rule oh yeah that's a great

love that rule oh yeah that's a great rule that's a great rule yeah well the

rule that's a great rule yeah well the thing is is that you can do almost

thing is is that you can do almost anything you want if you're willing to

anything you want if you're willing to take responsibility for it if you don't

take responsibility for it if you don't want credit one of the most effective

want credit one of the most effective political maneuver I've ever seen woman

political maneuver I've ever seen woman who's she's so brilliant I won't tell

who's she's so brilliant I won't tell you who she is but she's so sharp she's

you who she is but she's so sharp she's so brilliant and she told me the last

so brilliant and she told me the last time I saw her she's had her finger in

time I saw her she's had her finger in pies for like 30 years popping up in

pies for like 30 years popping up in places you'd never expect I thought I

places you'd never expect I thought I asked just like how the hell did you

asked just like how the hell did you pull this off and she said oh I decided

pull this off and she said oh I decided 30 years ago that I could do whatever I

30 years ago that I could do whatever I wanted if I didn't want credit and so

wanted if I didn't want credit and so that's exactly what she's done and she's

that's exactly what she's done and she's had a stellar career stellar and I've

had a stellar career stellar and I've worked with other people who've done the

worked with other people who've done the same thing it's very interesting it's

same thing it's very interesting it's very interesting thing to realize you

very interesting thing to realize you might say well why would I want the

might say well why would I want the responsibility without the glory it's

responsibility without the glory it's like hey do you want the glory are you

like hey do you want the glory are you so sure that that wouldn't just get in

so sure that that wouldn't just get in your way you know there's something to

your way you know there's something to be said for anonymity and second maybe

be said for anonymity and second maybe you want the responsibility because

you want the responsibility because that's the adventure you actually get to

that's the adventure you actually get to do the thing that someone else just

do the thing that someone else just wants to take credit for well maybe

wants to take credit for well maybe doing the thing is plenty of reward in

doing the thing is plenty of reward in and of

and of itself with regard to

itself with regard to Identity you know when when I was a

Identity you know when when I was a professor I was also a husband and I was

professor I was also a husband and I was also a father well those were identities

also a father well those were identities but they weren't in my head they were

but they weren't in my head they were embedded in the relationship I had with

embedded in the relationship I had with my kids and that was a meaningful

my kids and that was a meaningful relationship embedded in the

relationship embedded in the relationship I had with my wife you

relationship I had with my wife you can't be you know it's almost heretical

can't be you know it's almost heretical to say this in the modern world

to say this in the modern world you can't be isolated alone without

you can't be isolated alone without responsibility and pursuing your

responsibility and pursuing your hedonistic

hedonistic nonsense and not be insane and miserable

nonsense and not be insane and miserable those are all the same thing right and

those are all the same thing right and so you know it's got to the point i'

so you know it's got to the point i' I've said things that have made me

I've said things that have made me somewhat unpopular like it's very

somewhat unpopular like it's very difficult for people to mature until

difficult for people to mature until they have a

child you find a huge part of what you are in that relationship it makes you

are in that relationship it makes you responsible makes you grow up it gives

responsible makes you grow up it gives you the opportunity to Mentor someone

you the opportunity to Mentor someone you have someone around who's more

you have someone around who's more important than you well that's part of

important than you well that's part of being mentally healthy it's a huge part

being mentally healthy it's a huge part of it this is this Enterprise that I put

of it this is this Enterprise that I put together in London helped put together

together in London helped put together Alliance for responsible citizenship

Alliance for responsible citizenship we're trying to put forward a model of

we're trying to put forward a model of governance it's called subsidiary model

governance it's called subsidiary model and the idea is that

and the idea is that people have multiple social roles that

people have multiple social roles that scale know there's you should take care

scale know there's you should take care of yourself integrate yourself which

of yourself integrate yourself which means you can conduct yourself properly

means you can conduct yourself properly across the medium to long run you're

across the medium to long run you're self- sustaining then you can maybe

self- sustaining then you can maybe extend that to your partner and then to

extend that to your partner and then to your family and then to your local

your family and then to your local community and then to broader

community and then to broader communities as you become more and more

communities as you become more and more competent and able to take on that

competent and able to take on that responsibility that's the alternative to

responsibility that's the alternative to isolated Hedon slavery you slave to your

isolated Hedon slavery you slave to your own whims and it's the alternative to

own whims and it's the alternative to tyranny because if you take on all that

tyranny because if you take on all that responsibility you don't have any need

responsibility you don't have any need for someone to govern you and so that's

for someone to govern you and so that's another example of

another example of how I blamed it on the therapists a

how I blamed it on the therapists a little bit I called them liberal

little bit I called them liberal Protestant

Protestant secularists and that's

secularists and that's because they think about the Locust of

because they think about the Locust of the psyche as in

the psyche as in interior subjective that's what a

interior subjective that's what a liberal would do it's just not accurate

liberal would do it's just not accurate that isn't that isn't the way the psyche

that isn't that isn't the way the psyche works it's not in your head you know

works it's not in your head you know it's it's in your head and in the world

it's it's in your head and in the world at the same time it's truly the case

at the same time it's truly the case that your sanity is the

that your sanity is the concordance between you as an individual

concordance between you as an individual and the world that's the sanity it's not

and the world that's the sanity it's not the proper structuring of your psyche or

the proper structuring of your psyche or your brain for that matter inside your

your brain for that matter inside your skull you're distributed out into the

skull you're distributed out into the world and you should be and that's you

world and you should be and that's you want to be that's where the adventure is

want to be that's where the adventure is you want to be

you want to be solipsistic the solipsistic porn

solipsistic the solipsistic porn masturbator Jesus it's no wonder you be

masturbator Jesus it's no wonder you be aimless and miserable well God it's so

aimless and miserable well God it's so pathetic why am I so unhappy it's

pathetic why am I so unhappy it's because you think about yourself no you

because you think about yourself no you think about the lowest impulses in

think about the lowest impulses in yourself all the time that's why you're

yourself all the time that's why you're miserable whilst being Arc what I

miserable whilst being Arc what I thought was particularly interesting was

thought was particularly interesting was your live event that you guys did at the

your live event that you guys did at the O2 on the evening time and everyone was

O2 on the evening time and everyone was great but Douglas I thought was just a

great but Douglas I thought was just a tour to force that evening what have you

tour to force that evening what have you learned since being friends with Douglas

learned since being friends with Douglas how's he impacted you or influenced

how's he impacted you or influenced you well douglas douglas is very very

you well douglas douglas is very very disagreeable you know and he enjoyed

disagreeable you know and he enjoyed combat and that isn't something that

combat and that isn't something that really characterizes I don't enjoy

really characterizes I don't enjoy combat at all I mean part of the reason

combat at all I mean part of the reason that it's perverse I suppose in some

that it's perverse I suppose in some ways part of the reason that I will

ways part of the reason that I will engage

engage in difficult conversations is because I

in difficult conversations is because I don't want to have them

don't want to have them forever and so you know one of the rules

forever and so you know one of the rules I had in my marriage and it was a rule

I had in my marriage and it was a rule that my wife also was pleased to follow

that my wife also was pleased to follow was that if we have a problem we're

was that if we have a problem we're going to deal with it right now and

going to deal with it right now and we're going to deal with it right to the

we're going to deal with it right to the bottom and that's very unpleasant but if

bottom and that's very unpleasant but if you do

you do it sometimes you only have to do it once

it sometimes you only have to do it once and the problem goes away and then you

and the problem goes away and then you don't have that Bloody problem every day

don't have that Bloody problem every day for the rest of your life and sometimes

for the rest of your life and sometimes it takes you know 20 times before it's

it takes you know 20 times before it's fixed before you've got to the bottom of

fixed before you've got to the bottom of things and that can be very

things and that can be very unpleasant Douglas is very very good at

not letting people off the hook he's very tough and he's very good at

very tough and he's very good at defending himself

defending himself and and he there's a pitilessness about

and and he there's a pitilessness about him that's extraordinarily admirable

him that's extraordinarily admirable it's a judicious pitilessness you know

it's a judicious pitilessness you know and it's a dangerous game to play

and it's a dangerous game to play because there's another gospel

because there's another gospel realization let's say is the standards

realization let's say is the standards you judge other people by will be the

you judge other people by will be the standards that you yourself are judging

standards that you yourself are judging judged by and the reason for that is

judged by and the reason for that is well how are you going to judge everyone

well how are you going to judge everyone else and not apply the same standards to

else and not apply the same standards to yourself like that's not going to happen

yourself like that's not going to happen because you become what you practice and

because you become what you practice and you'll turn the eye the Hostile eye that

you'll turn the eye the Hostile eye that you turn on others you will absolutely

you turn on others you will absolutely turn on yourself there's there's no way

turn on yourself there's there's no way around that and so Douglas plays a

around that and so Douglas plays a dangerous game because he's very

dangerous game because he's very combative but he's also extremely

combative but he's also extremely careful he's very careful with his words

careful he's very careful with his words and we've had a he toured with through

and we've had a he toured with through Europe I think we did nine shows

Europe I think we did nine shows together we we split the Q&A he intro he

together we we split the Q&A he intro he did a little bit of an introduction

did a little bit of an introduction before my lectures I really liked it I

before my lectures I really liked it I thought it was great it's been a

thought it was great it's been a privilege to get to know him super sharp

privilege to get to know him super sharp um very cultured person um very witty so

um very cultured person um very witty so he has a great sense of humor which is

he has a great sense of humor which is also fun which also was one of the

also fun which also was one of the things that makes him a very dangerous

things that makes him a very dangerous opponent in a debate because not only

opponent in a debate because not only does he have the facts at hand

does he have the facts at hand like Bjorn lomberg but he's

like Bjorn lomberg but he's devastatingly witting witty and cutting

devastatingly witting witty and cutting and it's fun to watch that he's a master

and it's fun to watch that he's a master at it so it was uh it's interesting to

at it so it was uh it's interesting to think about the fact

think about the fact that all you need really in a live

that all you need really in a live debate I think I learned this from you

debate I think I learned this from you and Sam ages ago if you're doing a live

and Sam ages ago if you're doing a live debate now that's not a proper

debate now that's not a proper intellectual formatted opening remarks

intellectual formatted opening remarks so on and so forth if you manage to get

so on and so forth if you manage to get sort of two or three real zingers you

sort of two or three real zingers you won regardless of the content if you do

won regardless of the content if you do two or three real Zinger whole crowd

two or three real Zinger whole crowd laughs guess what you you got yeah well

laughs guess what you you got yeah well the great public intellectuals have a

the great public intellectuals have a vicious sense of humor right and I mean

vicious sense of humor right and I mean I also think that's why so many of the

I also think that's why so many of the successful podcasters have been

successful podcasters have been comedians well at the ark conference I

comedians well at the ark conference I think Constantine Ken's speech was the

think Constantine Ken's speech was the overwhelming hit of the convention I

overwhelming hit of the convention I think it's got 600,000 views as of today

think it's got 600,000 views as of today 650 on the ark side in about 600 on his

650 on the ark side in about 600 on his own channel and Constantine did a

own channel and Constantine did a beautiful job of merging intellectual

beautiful job of merging intellectual content with wh well the thing the

content with wh well the thing the interesting thing about uh my live tour

interesting thing about uh my live tour that I'm about to start doing bunch of

that I'm about to start doing bunch of my comedian friends have said to me dude

my comedian friends have said to me dude I am so jealous of the tour that you get

I am so jealous of the tour that you get to do because no one's expecting you to

to do because no one's expecting you to be funny if you managed to be funny four

be funny if you managed to be funny four times in 90 minutes you've killed if I'm

times in 90 minutes you've killed if I'm not funny once every seven seconds I'm a

not funny once every seven seconds I'm a [ __ ] comedian right so the bar is set

[ __ ] comedian right so the bar is set and obviously coming in with

and obviously coming in with Constantine's background of Comedy means

Constantine's background of Comedy means that he is able to be by far the you

that he is able to be by far the you know Far and Away way funnier than most

know Far and Away way funnier than most public speakers uh but doesn't get held

public speakers uh but doesn't get held necessarily to the same standards that

necessarily to the same standards that he he's not expecting to be one liners

he he's not expecting to be one liners all the time one of the things that

all the time one of the things that Douglas brought up when you guys were

Douglas brought up when you guys were talking on stage that I thought was

talking on stage that I thought was particularly interesting was The Perils

particularly interesting was The Perils of smart people getting captured by

of smart people getting captured by culture wars [ __ ] do you ever

culture wars [ __ ] do you ever think about how much time over the last

think about how much time over the last decade some of the smartest people on

decade some of the smartest people on the planet have had their attention

the planet have had their attention their cognitive horow just yeah taken

their cognitive horow just yeah taken away arguing about whether men are men

away arguing about whether men are men and women are women or not or whatever

and women are women or not or whatever the idea the jure of the day is yeah

the idea the jure of the day is yeah well this is so I've been partnering

well this is so I've been partnering with the daily wire for about a year and

with the daily wire for about a year and a half so far that's been very

a half so far that's been very successful they've been a pleasure to

successful they've been a pleasure to work with but what they wrestle with

work with but what they wrestle with constantly all them all of the

constantly all them all of the principles all of the principles at

principles all of the principles at Daily wire would rather in some real way

Daily wire would rather in some real way be be concentrating on philosophical

be be concentrating on philosophical theological or dramatic matters so which

theological or dramatic matters so which is partly why the daily wire is turning

is partly why the daily wire is turning towards entertainment for kids but also

towards entertainment for kids but also for adults starting to make movies for

for adults starting to make movies for example and TV shows they'd rather be

example and TV shows they'd rather be doing that I had Ben

doing that I had Ben Shapiro um he participated in this

Shapiro um he participated in this seminar on Exodus that I produced with

seminar on Exodus that I produced with about nine other um extraordinarily

about nine other um extraordinarily interesting thinkers and Ben is Shawn

interesting thinkers and Ben is Shawn you know he he's he's

you know he he's he's wasted is he wasted on the

wasted is he wasted on the political the political is necessary but

political the political is necessary but it's it's one nation under God for a

it's it's one nation under God for a reason because the political the

reason because the political the political isn't the Pinnacle never it's

political isn't the Pinnacle never it's never the Pinnacle and if you're capable

never the Pinnacle and if you're capable of discourse at the Pinnacle political

of discourse at the Pinnacle political discourse is secondary there's also

discourse is secondary there's also evanescent right there's ways that it

evanescent right there's ways that it can tumble as well there's uh how would

can tumble as well there's uh how would you say degrees of depth of political

you say degrees of depth of political stuff too because what works on YouTube

stuff too because what works on YouTube a lot of the time is in reacts to insane

a lot of the time is in reacts to insane woke Tik toks or does whatever and it's

woke Tik toks or does whatever and it's easy to get pigeon H holded that way

easy to get pigeon H holded that way yeah yeah and it is is it a

yeah yeah and it is is it a waste it's nonoptimal but it's a

waste it's nonoptimal but it's a question it's an interesting question to

question it's an interesting question to be asked right about how much sort of

be asked right about how much sort of ankle or skirt need you need to show

ankle or skirt need you need to show from an algorithmic perspective in order

from an algorithmic perspective in order to keep the numbers churning because

to keep the numbers churning because ultimately you're producing what people

ultimately you're producing what people click on you don't want to be completely

click on you don't want to be completely beholden to your audience that's

beholden to your audience that's audience capture but you also don't want

audience capture but you also don't want to be so unaware of having your finger

to be so unaware of having your finger on the pulse of what is trendy that you

on the pulse of what is trendy that you become obscure and obsolete right right

become obscure and obsolete right right well in that well in that line that

well in that well in that line that you're trying to walk when you're

you're trying to walk when you're dealing with matters that are the

dealing with matters that are the highest and also making them publicly

highest and also making them publicly accessible that's a very very tight line

accessible that's a very very tight line to walk I mean Jonathan Paso has done a

to walk I mean Jonathan Paso has done a good job of that although his Market is

good job of that although his Market is still relatively Niche and he certainly

still relatively Niche and he certainly is more esoteric let's say than the

is more esoteric let's say than the daily wire guys who tend to devolve into

daily wire guys who tend to devolve into the political and that devolves into the

the political and that devolves into the cheap political from time to time right

cheap political from time to time right the hit for hit sake or the or the

the hit for hit sake or the or the chasing the algorithm and I mean that's

chasing the algorithm and I mean that's the danger that all politicians have too

the danger that all politicians have too is that and I've seen this with lots of

is that and I've seen this with lots of political

political who have developed a

who have developed a Persona this is particularly true in the

Persona this is particularly true in the United States I would say because

United States I would say because Americans are so sales money and I don't

Americans are so sales money and I don't say that dismissively it's really hard

say that dismissively it's really hard to sell to Market to

to sell to Market to communicate I I saw the Elvis movie

communicate I I saw the Elvis movie recently and I thought it did a

recently and I thought it did a beautiful job of laying this out because

beautiful job of laying this out because Elvis was a stellar talent but his

Elvis was a stellar talent but his manager who was a real Shyer was also a

manager who was a real Shyer was also a stellar Talent like Elvis wouldn't have

stellar Talent like Elvis wouldn't have been who he was without his corrupt

been who he was without his corrupt manager and you know it's sort of a deal

manager and you know it's sort of a deal with the devil but you have to give the

with the devil but you have to give the devil is due too and the salesman part

devil is due too and the salesman part of American culture can easily devolve

of American culture can easily devolve into a kind

into a kind of

of narcissistic manipulativeness that's

narcissistic manipulativeness that's that's where it would go if it becomes

that's where it would go if it becomes pathological but as you said you have to

pathological but as you said you have to be aware of your audience and you have

be aware of your audience and you have to be delivering what there's a market

to be delivering what there's a market for and it's very difficult to get those

for and it's very difficult to get those things right this is a question question

things right this is a question question that I've got about your new book coming

that I've got about your new book coming out next year I haven't seen any of it

out next year I haven't seen any of it and it sounds like based on what you're

and it sounds like based on what you're reading at the moment you're trying to

reading at the moment you're trying to Grapple with religious texts especially

Grapple with religious texts especially the Bible we who wrestle with God is the

the Bible we who wrestle with God is the name of the book we who wrestle with God

name of the book we who wrestle with God yeah which is the that's what the word

yeah which is the that's what the word Israel means Israel means we who wrestle

Israel means Israel means we who wrestle with God and so well it's very

with God and so well it's very interesting because it means the chosen

interesting because it means the chosen people are the people who wrestle with

people are the people who wrestle with God and you might say well who wrestles

God and you might say well who wrestles with God and the answer to that is well

with God and the answer to that is well everyone wrestles with god well why

everyone wrestles with god well why because you can't act without making

because you can't act without making moral decisions like every every step

moral decisions like every every step forward is predicated on a moral

forward is predicated on a moral decision and so we're all wrestling with

decision and so we're all wrestling with God is God a moral

decision God is the spirit that guides you when you make the proper moral

you when you make the proper moral decisions so I wouldn't say God is a

decisions so I wouldn't say God is a moral decision he's the spirit of he's

moral decision he's the spirit of he's the Spirit of moral decision that's

the Spirit of moral decision that's that's actually not a bad definition

that's actually not a bad definition like part of what I'm trying to do with

like part of what I'm trying to do with this book is to point out that a lot of

this book is to point out that a lot of what's happening in the biblical Corpus

what's happening in the biblical Corpus is actually

is actually definitional right

definitional right well people modern people think the

well people modern people think the fundamental issue is do you believe in

fundamental issue is do you believe in God but that's not the fundamental issue

God but that's not the fundamental issue the fundamental issue is what do you

the fundamental issue is what do you mean by God and so let me give you an

mean by God and so let me give you an example of this that will make it

example of this that will make it clearer so there's no there's a medieval

clearer so there's no there's a medieval idea that that God is the sum bonum

idea that that God is the sum bonum which means the sum of all that's good

which means the sum of all that's good or the essence of all that's good okay

or the essence of all that's good okay you might say well I don't believe in

you might say well I don't believe in that now remember this is a definition

that now remember this is a definition of God right God is the sum of all

of God right God is the sum of all that's good okay all right so you don't

that's good okay all right so you don't believe in that all right let's take

believe in that all right let's take that

that apart do you believe that some things

apart do you believe that some things are better than other things well people

are better than other things well people will say yes okay so then you believe

will say yes okay so then you believe that there is a scale of good

that there is a scale of good okay is there something that all things

okay is there something that all things that are good share in common and the

that are good share in common and the answer that has to be yes because

answer that has to be yes because otherwise you don't have a conception of

otherwise you don't have a conception of good right the word good implies that

good right the word good implies that across good things there's some Essence

across good things there's some Essence okay well the definition the medieval

okay well the definition the medieval one medieval definition of God is the

one medieval definition of God is the essence of good well okay let's say you

essence of good well okay let's say you don't believe in that okay does that

don't believe in that okay does that mean you don't believe in anything

mean you don't believe in anything that's good okay then how how do you act

that's good okay then how how do you act then because to act means to do

then because to act means to do something that's better than what you're

something that's better than what you're doing now right there's no action

doing now right there's no action without movement towards the the good

without movement towards the the good and well you might you might say well I

and well you might you might say well I don't believe that there's a unitary

don't believe that there's a unitary good okay you believe there's there's a

good okay you believe there's there's a fractionated good well then what do you

fractionated good well then what do you do when those things oppose one another

do when those things oppose one another right which would be in a conflict of

right which would be in a conflict of Duty what how do you refer to what do

Duty what how do you refer to what do you refer to to help you adjudicate

you refer to to help you adjudicate between different Goods well generally

between different Goods well generally what you do is if you could pursue a

what you do is if you could pursue a which is good or B which is good and

which is good or B which is good and they conflict then you pick the higher

they conflict then you pick the higher good okay do you believe in a higher

good okay do you believe in a higher good well if you don't you can't decide

good well if you don't you can't decide between goods which means you're

between goods which means you're paralyzed if you do believe in the

paralyzed if you do believe in the higher good then do you believe in the

higher good then do you believe in the highest good well the highest good is

highest good well the highest good is God what do you mean by that by

God what do you mean by that by definition okay so now you have a

definition okay so now you have a definition now then the next question

definition now then the next question might be well what's your relation ship

might be well what's your relation ship with the highest good and you might say

with the highest good and you might say well I don't have a relationship it's

well I don't have a relationship it's like well actually you do because you

like well actually you do because you act in relationship to it you can't help

act in relationship to it you can't help it you one of the interesting things

it you one of the interesting things about the biblical Corpus is that it's

about the biblical Corpus is that it's based on the insistance that you have a

based on the insistance that you have a relationship with being and becoming a

relationship with being and becoming a relationship like a personal

relationship like a personal relationship when you say biblical culus

relationship when you say biblical culus do you mean the collection of texts that

do you mean the collection of texts that makes up the Bible yeah because it's a

makes up the Bible yeah because it's a library of of books essentially right

library of of books essentially right the Bible is actually the first library

the Bible is actually the first library of books it's written by a v a very

of books it's written by a v a very large number of different people and

large number of different people and aggregated over thousands of years and

aggregated over thousands of years and then

then sequenced actually sequenced into a

sequenced actually sequenced into a narrative interestingly enough because

narrative interestingly enough because no one really sequenced it or by no one

no one really sequenced it or by no one I mean no individual person it was the

I mean no individual person it was the Endeavor of the collective or the spirit

Endeavor of the collective or the spirit that possessed the collective over

that possessed the collective over thousands of years but the narrative is

thousands of years but the narrative is coherent which is really quite something

coherent which is really quite something and so the narrative is an investigation

and so the narrative is an investigation number one into the nature of God number

number one into the nature of God number two into the nature of relationship with

two into the nature of relationship with God and then number three into the

God and then number three into the nature of the proper relationship with

nature of the proper relationship with God all of those things and God

God all of those things and God is the sum of all that's good so the

is the sum of all that's good so the Bible is an analysis of H the human

Bible is an analysis of H the human relationship with the

relationship with the good what what would have to happen

good what what would have to happen after the publishing of we who wrestle

after the publishing of we who wrestle with God for you to look back on that

with God for you to look back on that publication and consider it a success

publication and consider it a success what is it that you want to happen what

what is it that you want to happen what do you want people to feel or to take

do you want people to feel or to take away from that

work I think we're at the beginning of the counter

Enlightenment the the propositions the enlightenment view of man is wrong and

enlightenment view of man is wrong and this you know out of the Enlightenment

this you know out of the Enlightenment view came science but the Science Now

view came science but the Science Now indicates that the enlightenment view of

indicates that the enlightenment view of man is wrong what do you mean well the

man is wrong what do you mean well the enlightenment types believe that we

enlightenment types believe that we could Orient ourselves in the world

could Orient ourselves in the world let's say empirically that and this is

let's say empirically that and this is Sam Harris's

Sam Harris's proposition you can abide by the facts

proposition you can abide by the facts you can Orient yourself as a consequence

you can Orient yourself as a consequence of the dispassionate analysis of the

of the dispassionate analysis of the facts you can't and I would say the

facts you can't and I would say the artificial intelligence Engineers have

artificial intelligence Engineers have figured that out the postmodern literary

figured that out the postmodern literary critics have figured that out the

critics have figured that out the psychologists and physiologists of

psychologists and physiologists of perception have figured it out and the

perception have figured it out and the neuroscientists have figured that out so

neuroscientists have figured that out so it's not just the evidence that that

it's not just the evidence that that view is necessarily incorrect is

view is necessarily incorrect is overwhelming and

overwhelming and multi-dimensional you can't Orient

multi-dimensional you can't Orient Yourself by the facts why because there

Yourself by the facts why because there are as many facts as there are things in

are as many facts as there are things in fact if you combine

fact if you combine things the nature of the combination is

things the nature of the combination is also a fact so there's as many facts as

also a fact so there's as many facts as there are things and combinations of

there are things and combinations of things well you can't Orient Yourself by

things well you can't Orient Yourself by that that's you drown in chaos it's like

that that's you drown in chaos it's like you're standing in the desert and

you're standing in the desert and there's an infinite number of directions

there's an infinite number of directions you could go well how do you choose a

you could go well how do you choose a direction and that's showing up in that

direction and that's showing up in that most recent survey that I just mentioned

most recent survey that I just mentioned people feeling meaninglessness

people feeling meaninglessness purposelessness I overwhel lost in the

purposelessness I overwhel lost in the desert they're lost in the desert that's

desert they're lost in the desert that's and the desert is the desert of fact

and the desert is the desert of fact it's dead facts especially given how few

it's dead facts especially given how few people can agree on is this a fact or is

people can agree on is this a fact or is this counter the well that's also a

this counter the well that's also a problem is it's not like the facts are

problem is it's not like the facts are necessarily self-evident some facts are

necessarily self-evident some facts are and I suppose to some degree what the

and I suppose to some degree what the scientific Corpus is is the elaboration

scientific Corpus is is the elaboration of a set of

incontrovertible facts I've read recently that the whole big bang

recently that the whole big bang narrative is starting to come apart you

narrative is starting to come apart you know that was a fact for a long time now

know that was a fact for a long time now I don't know if that's the case I don't

I don't know if that's the case I don't know enough about it but my sense is

know enough about it but my sense is that the new discoveries from the web

that the new discoveries from the web telescope have made many of the

telescope have made many of the presumptions upon which the Big Bang

presumptions upon which the Big Bang model was based questionable so now I

model was based questionable so now I don't want to you know fall down a

don't want to you know fall down a postmodern rabbit hole

postmodern rabbit hole because alth the issue of what

because alth the issue of what constitutes a fact is a very complicated

constitutes a fact is a very complicated issue anyways you can cut to the chase

issue anyways you can cut to the chase by pointing out that we organize facts

by pointing out that we organize facts in a hierarchy of value and you see the

in a hierarchy of value and you see the thing about I'm trying to make this case

thing about I'm trying to make this case in the

in the book you do this when you look at the

book you do this when you look at the world you can't look at the world except

world you can't look at the world except through a hierarchy of value so for

through a hierarchy of value so for example as we're sitting here there's an

example as we're sitting here there's an infinite number of places we could be

infinite number of places we could be pointing our eyes like I could be

pointing our eyes like I could be talking to you and looking at this

talking to you and looking at this little spot on the concrete floor or the

little spot on the concrete floor or the spot beside it or the infinite number of

spot beside it or the infinite number of spots surrounding it constantly but I'm

spots surrounding it constantly but I'm not I'm looking at your eyes okay why

not I'm looking at your eyes okay why because I'm prioritizing them so the

because I'm prioritizing them so the fact that dominates in this landscape is

fact that dominates in this landscape is the fact of your eyes

the fact of your eyes why I can use your eyes to evaluate our

why I can use your eyes to evaluate our shared Focus right and that's why we

shared Focus right and that's why we look at other people's eyes it's also

look at other people's eyes it's also why humans have got white around the

why humans have got white around the exactly it's so that we can see what

exactly it's so that we can see what other people are attending to so that we

other people are attending to so that we can get insight into the story a story

can get insight into the story a story is a

is a description of a hierarchy of value

description of a hierarchy of value stories can be Fantastical though right

stories can be Fantastical though right if they're untethered to anything I can

if they're untethered to anything I can make up Harry Potter's a story now this

make up Harry Potter's a story now this if they're untethered to anything you

if they're untethered to anything you won't find them interesting because they

won't find them interesting because they won't resonate they they won't grip you

won't resonate they they won't grip you yeah they're they're tethered stories

yeah they're they're tethered stories are are Tethered to reality in a very

are are Tethered to reality in a very very complicated way because reality

very complicated way because reality isn't what presents itself moment to

isn't what presents itself moment to moment

it's our math there's a huge debate among

math there's a huge debate among philosophers about mathematical

philosophers about mathematical abstractions are they real well you

abstractions are they real well you could make a case that a mathematical

could make a case that a mathematical abstraction is more real than the thing

abstraction is more real than the thing from which it's abstracted how would you

from which it's abstracted how would you make that case if you're a master of

make that case if you're a master of mathematics you master the world so are

mathematics you master the world so are the mathematical abstractions more or

the mathematical abstractions more or less real narrative abstractions are

less real narrative abstractions are abstractions but you could

abstractions but you could say this is what an archetype is an

say this is what an archetype is an archetype is a narrative abstraction

archetype is a narrative abstraction that's more real than the world than the

that's more real than the world than the apparent world it's behind the scenes

apparent world it's behind the scenes and the biblical Corpus is a is a

and the biblical Corpus is a is a narrative narrative it's a hyperreal

narrative narrative it's a hyperreal narrative that's the right way to think

narrative that's the right way to think about it it's more real than real it's

about it it's more real than real it's more real than reality how could

more real than reality how could something that isn't the thing be more

something that isn't the thing be more real than the thing well that's exactly

real than the thing well that's exactly the problem with

the problem with abstraction right is the idea of a

abstraction right is the idea of a church more real than a given

church more real than a given Church well it is in some ways because

Church well it is in some ways because it encapsulates what's similar across

it encapsulates what's similar across all churches right so it it's like a

all churches right so it it's like a platonic ideal a category is like a

platonic ideal a category is like a platonic ideal is it more or less real

platonic ideal is it more or less real well you could say that the reality this

well you could say that the reality this is what Plato said the reality is a dim

is what Plato said the reality is a dim shadow of the essence the reality is

shadow of the essence the reality is less real than the

less real than the ideal and we we

ideal and we we certainly and that's actually in some

certainly and that's actually in some ways built into our perception like we

ways built into our perception like we we

we criticize we criticize the things that

criticize we criticize the things that present themselves to us because they

present themselves to us because they are poor reflections of the hypothetical

are poor reflections of the hypothetical ideal you might say well the ideal isn't

ideal you might say well the ideal isn't real it's like

real it's like well you could make the opposite

well you could make the opposite argument which is that the ideal is more

argument which is that the ideal is more real than the thing itself and I mean I

real than the thing itself and I mean I can give you an example of these

can give you an example of these patterns so in the story of Cain and

patterns so in the story of Cain and Abel you have two patterns of

Abel you have two patterns of sacrifice okay why is sacrifice an issue

sacrifice okay why is sacrifice an issue the reason it's an issue is because

the reason it's an issue is because people exist in a sacrificial

people exist in a sacrificial relationship to the world what does that

relationship to the world what does that mean it seems to mean something like

mean it seems to mean something like human beings are aware of their extended

human beings are aware of their extended self you know you're going to be around

self you know you're going to be around tomorrow and next week and next month

tomorrow and next week and next month and next year and 5 years from now and

and next year and 5 years from now and 10 years from now now it's less certain

10 years from now now it's less certain as you go out but you do have the sense

as you go out but you do have the sense of yourself as something that stretches

of yourself as something that stretches across the decades okay and so what that

across the decades okay and so what that means is that you have to conduct

means is that you have to conduct yourself in a manner that isn't merely

yourself in a manner that isn't merely immediate you have to conduct yourself

immediate you have to conduct yourself in a manner that will work across time

in a manner that will work across time now how do people do that they work

now how do people do that they work work is a sacrificial gesture so you

work is a sacrificial gesture so you work by definition virtually work is the

work by definition virtually work is the sacrifice of the present for the future

sacrifice of the present for the future I mean maybe someone can come up with a

I mean maybe someone can come up with a better definition of work than that but

better definition of work than that but I don't think so it's like you you put

I don't think so it's like you you put in time and effort right now it's

in time and effort right now it's something even if it's something maybe

something even if it's something maybe not what you'd like to be doing at the

not what you'd like to be doing at the moment you put in time and effort

moment you put in time and effort because you believe what the hell does

because you believe what the hell does that mean you believe it'll pay off

that mean you believe it'll pay off well is that a

well is that a contract with the future is it a

contract with the future is it a covenant because the relationship that

covenant because the relationship that the biblical

the biblical Corpus insists characterizes human

Corpus insists characterizes human striving is covenantal it's a bargain

striving is covenantal it's a bargain the bargain is you make the right

the bargain is you make the right sacrifices and they pay off that's the

sacrifices and they pay off that's the bargain now you might say well that's

bargain now you might say well that's just part of the social contract but the

just part of the social contract but the biblical Corpus insists that it's deeper

biblical Corpus insists that it's deeper than that it's built into the the

than that it's built into the the structure of reality itself and that if

structure of reality itself and that if you got the sacrifices right the future

you got the sacrifices right the future would be

would be paradisal I've got it in my head that KL

paradisal I've got it in my head that KL young quote beware of unearned

young quote beware of unearned wisdom that feels like that feels like

wisdom that feels like that feels like it plays a role here like

it plays a role here like how the work that you need to put in in

how the work that you need to put in in order to be able to arrive at genuinely

order to be able to arrive at genuinely knowing the thing the difference between

knowing the thing the difference between actually being attractive because who

actually being attractive because who you are is attractive and you being able

you are is attractive and you being able to be a pickup artist that is able to

to be a pickup artist that is able to make the mouth noises and the hand

make the mouth noises and the hand gestures that caus those those are the

gestures that caus those those are the fruits of false sacrifice you could say

fruits of false sacrifice you could say that unearned unearned moral reputation

that unearned unearned moral reputation is the consequence of false sacrifice

is the consequence of false sacrifice well this is performative empathy right

well this is performative empathy right sure

sure exactly definitely that's the same as

exactly definitely that's the same as praying in public look at how good I am

praying in public look at how good I am if the look at if the look at comes

if the look at if the look at comes before the how good I am right right

before the how good I am right right right right it really

right right it really re's havoc on the good claim it's also I

re's havoc on the good claim it's also I spoke to Douglas about this it seems to

spoke to Douglas about this it seems to almost be a predictor it's an identifier

almost be a predictor it's an identifier that you should be a little bit more

that you should be a little bit more cautious about what this person is do

cautious about what this person is do definitely you know if every single

definitely you know if every single person that's super sweety and nicey

person that's super sweety and nicey nicy lizo do you see lizo was in the

nicy lizo do you see lizo was in the news recently no so she is a uh artist

news recently no so she is a uh artist singer uh she the one that that got in

singer uh she the one that that got in trouble for abusing her close

trouble for abusing her close compatriots dancers she made her dancers

compatriots dancers she made her dancers eat bananas out of the vaginas of amster

eat bananas out of the vaginas of amster Damian strippers um Douglas said that he

Damian strippers um Douglas said that he oh yeah that's a little on the

oh yeah that's a little on the hedonistic power mad side well she was

hedonistic power mad side well she was supposed to be you know this bass like

supposed to be you know this bass like for the girls and body positivity and

for the girls and body positivity and all this stuff but it turned out behind

all this stuff but it turned out behind the scenes that she was treating her

the scenes that she was treating her dances terribly body shaming them all of

dances terribly body shaming them all of the time but she was the one up front

the time but she was the one up front that was the Vanguard of this particular

that was the Vanguard of this particular movement but you'd seen the same with uh

movement but you'd seen the same with uh was it Jimmy Fallon I think he was uh

was it Jimmy Fallon I think he was uh caught up in a fural recently that he

caught up in a fural recently that he was a tyrant to work for and yet out

was a tyrant to work for and yet out front Ellen degenerous again the same

front Ellen degenerous again the same it's almost actually like if somebody is

it's almost actually like if somebody is it's very much like that overloading on

it's very much like that overloading on the sweetie nicey I am here for the

the sweetie nicey I am here for the underlings that you go I'm a little bit

underlings that you go I'm a little bit suspicious of what's going on

suspicious of what's going on there if you need to Proclaim your

there if you need to Proclaim your Purity and your good

Purity and your good standing if it's all words and opinions

standing if it's all words and opinions and not Deeds one of The Commandments

and not Deeds one of The Commandments one of the Ten Commandments is do not

one of the Ten Commandments is do not use God's name in vain okay now people

use God's name in vain okay now people think that means don't swear and it sort

think that means don't swear and it sort of means that that's one of its like

of means that that's one of its like tangential meanings but what it really

tangential meanings but what it really means is do not

means is do not claim Divine motivation for self-serving

claim Divine motivation for self-serving Behavior right and that's performative

Behavior right and that's performative compassion so what you do is you elevate

compassion so what you do is you elevate compassion to the highest place so you

compassion to the highest place so you make it your God which is big mistake

make it your God which is big mistake because whatever God is

because whatever God is he is not merely compassion you elevate

he is not merely compassion you elevate compassion to the highest place and then

compassion to the highest place and then you say I feel sorry for people and what

you say I feel sorry for people and what that does is elevate your moral status

that does is elevate your moral status to the highest possible place right it's

to the highest possible place right it's completely unearned

completely unearned because this is something JK Rowling got

because this is something JK Rowling got so accurate with her Dolores Umbridge

so accurate with her Dolores Umbridge character right he was an absolute power

character right he was an absolute power mink with little kittens had the kittens

mink with little kittens had the kittens on the plates it's like this toxic

on the plates it's like this toxic sentimentality I'm so nice it's like

sentimentality I'm so nice it's like yeah I'd like to stay away from you and

yeah I'd like to stay away from you and you're devouring niceness and the

you're devouring niceness and the freudians knew about that very very in a

freudians knew about that very very in a very sophisticated way very early

very sophisticated way very early because the devouring mother the edle

because the devouring mother the edle mother is the shadow side of compassion

mother is the shadow side of compassion I've been trying to come up with the

I've been trying to come up with the term for this for a while I like Ming

term for this for a while I like Ming things into existence giving them names

things into existence giving them names useful uh and at the moment the best one

useful uh and at the moment the best one I've got is the the shallow Pond of

I've got is the the shallow Pond of empathy which is at the moment

empathy which is at the moment something which appeases people and does

something which appeases people and does not cause them any discomfort

not cause them any discomfort immediately is always prioritized even

immediately is always prioritized even if the net effect of that over the

if the net effect of that over the longterm results in their suffering

longterm results in their suffering absolutely that's exactly what that's

absolutely that's exactly what that's exactly what the edle situation is it's

exactly what the edle situation is it's the prioritization of short-term

the prioritization of short-term emotional Comfort over medium to

emotional Comfort over medium to long-term thriving right cuz the mother

long-term thriving right cuz the mother who kicks the child out of the nest says

who kicks the child out of the nest says this is going to hurt now

this is going to hurt now but the iterating consequences are

but the iterating consequences are positive Michelangelo's PA right exactly

positive Michelangelo's PA right exactly that's right that's right and it's

that's right that's right and it's that's exactly right and the and the

that's exactly right and the and the moral of that story is is that if you

moral of that story is is that if you give up your children to the world you

give up your children to the world you will keep them right that's the

will keep them right that's the sacrifice of Abraham is Abraham is

sacrifice of Abraham is Abraham is called upon by God to sacrifice his son

called upon by God to sacrifice his son and he says yes so he doesn't have to

and he says yes so he doesn't have to right you have to offer up your children

right you have to offer up your children to be broken by the world or or you lose

to be broken by the world or or you lose them you undermine them you destroy them

them you undermine them you destroy them it's very it's a very paradoxical truth

it's very it's a very paradoxical truth we were talking about

we were talking about patterns Cain is the pattern of

patterns Cain is the pattern of inappropriate sacrifice he does

inappropriate sacrifice he does everything second rate he lies he omits

everything second rate he lies he omits he prevaricates he pretends he doesn't

he prevaricates he pretends he doesn't offer his best ables the opposite he

offer his best ables the opposite he offers his best which means he's comp

offers his best which means he's comp his light is shining on the hill right

his light is shining on the hill right there's no hiding he's giving it

there's no hiding he's giving it everything he's got the Covenant with

everything he's got the Covenant with God is that if you give it everything

God is that if you give it everything you've got you will prevail and that's

you've got you will prevail and that's what God tells Cain which to go through

what God tells Cain which to go through some of the threads from today Instinct

some of the threads from today Instinct staying true to that instinct honesty

staying true to that instinct honesty saying what you mean not prioritizing

saying what you mean not prioritizing avoiding uh someone else's or your

avoiding uh someone else's or your discomfort in the short term in order to

discomfort in the short term in order to believe that this is something which is

believe that this is something which is going to make you feel better over the

going to make you feel better over the long term I have a well that's a kind of

long term I have a well that's a kind of sacrifice right there is that you're

sacrifice right there is that you're willing to sacrifice your

willing to sacrifice your shortterm physiological and

shortterm physiological and psychological comfort for a medium to

psychological comfort for a medium to long-term benefit it's the essence of

long-term benefit it's the essence of sacrifice to offer the this is this is

sacrifice to offer the this is this is something the atheists don't understand

something the atheists don't understand about the biblical narrative is that the

about the biblical narrative is that the narrative insists that we live in a

narrative insists that we live in a sacrificial relationship it's the

sacrificial relationship it's the essence of humanity to live in a

essence of humanity to live in a sacrificial relationship it's like well

sacrificial relationship it's like well is that true or not

is that true or not well as you m

well as you m sure your relationships are more

sure your relationships are more sacrificial it's less about what you in

sacrificial it's less about what you in your narrow sense want right now and

your narrow sense want right now and it's more about what's good over the

it's more about what's good over the medium to long run including other

medium to long run including other people well that's a sacrificial

people well that's a sacrificial relationship now the Covenant you know

relationship now the Covenant you know and this is a matter of Faith it's the

and this is a matter of Faith it's the matter of the deepest

matter of the deepest Faith do you are you willing to act out

Faith do you are you willing to act out the proposition that the way to make the

the proposition that the way to make the world reveal itself to you in its most

world reveal itself to you in its most positive guise is for you to adopt the

positive guise is for you to adopt the most appropriate sacrificial

most appropriate sacrificial relationship well it's a big risk isn't

relationship well it's a big risk isn't it because you have to give up

it because you have to give up everything that's the that's the deal

everything that's the that's the deal you give up everything that's low

you give up everything that's low everything everything well that's what

everything everything well that's what the Christian passion is because the

the Christian passion is because the Christian passion is an archetypal story

Christian passion is an archetypal story because Christ is the person who

because Christ is the person who sacrifices

sacrifices everything thoroughly

everything thoroughly 100% And the biblical notion is that

100% And the biblical notion is that there's no difference between that and

there's no difference between that and the Descent of the god of the Old

the Descent of the god of the Old Testament

Testament into into into the space of human

into into into the space of human reality so God is elaborated as a spirit

reality so God is elaborated as a spirit in the Old Testament that's way of

in the Old Testament that's way of thinking about it fleshed out right into

thinking about it fleshed out right into the law and the prophets and Christ

the law and the prophets and Christ presents himself as the embodiment of

presents himself as the embodiment of that so imagine here's a way of thinking

that so imagine here's a way of thinking about it

about it you can invite various spirits to

you can invite various spirits to possess you that's what you do when you

possess you that's what you do when you give way to Rage that's what you do when

give way to Rage that's what you do when you give way to lust let's say you allow

you give way to lust let's say you allow spirits to possess you well what would

spirits to possess you well what would you be like if you did nothing but allow

you be like if you did nothing but allow the highest of spirits to possess you

the highest of spirits to possess you well that's the question that's put

well that's the question that's put forth in the New Testament and part of

forth in the New Testament and part of the answer to that is

if you allowed the highest of all possible spirits to possess you you

possible spirits to possess you you would be able to confront everything

would be able to confront everything that life could possibly throw at you

that life could possibly throw at you and that's what happens in the Christian

and that's what happens in the Christian passion because the worst that life can

passion because the worst that life can throw at you is the worst tragedy and

throw at you is the worst tragedy and the worst tragedy is the worst death the

the worst tragedy is the worst death the worst and most painful death inflicted

worst and most painful death inflicted on the least deserving person right

on the least deserving person right that's the ultimate reach of tragedy

that's the ultimate reach of tragedy okay that's not enough Christ has to

okay that's not enough Christ has to confront that and and he has to confront

confront that and and he has to confront malevolence that's the harrowing of hell

malevolence that's the harrowing of hell so the idea is that to adapt fully to

so the idea is that to adapt fully to life you have to allow yourself to be

life you have to allow yourself to be possessed by the spirit that will enable

possessed by the spirit that will enable you to voluntarily face unjust suffering

you to voluntarily face unjust suffering and death and evil it's like well you

and death and evil it's like well you got an argument against that how could

got an argument against that how could it be any other way one of the things

it be any other way one of the things that I think I see people respond to

that I think I see people respond to this degree of pressure when they think

this degree of pressure when they think about what is going happen long term uh

about what is going happen long term uh I have discomfort that is in front of me

I have discomfort that is in front of me now that I need to face that I need to

now that I need to face that I need to go through if I'm going to get to

go through if I'm going to get to Something in the future that I think

Something in the future that I think that I'm supposed to do and one of the

that I'm supposed to do and one of the solutions that they come up with which

solutions that they come up with which isn't a solution but it kind of is to

isn't a solution but it kind of is to them is I'm not going to do anything

them is I'm not going to do anything yeah you know that uh no decision is

yeah you know that uh no decision is kind of the same as a neutral a neutral

kind of the same as a neutral a neutral Choice one of my friends Alex has got

Choice one of my friends Alex has got this quote which I love and he says the

this quote which I love and he says the heaviest things in life aren't iron and

heaviest things in life aren't iron and gold but unmade decisions the reason you

gold but unmade decisions the reason you are stressed is that you have decisions

are stressed is that you have decisions to make and you're not making them yeah

to make and you're not making them yeah yeah that's yeah yeah no doubt about it

yeah that's yeah yeah no doubt about it well there's no

well there's no indecision right there's

indecision right there's only because you

only because you age like you pay for your you pay for

age like you pay for your you pay for your indecision it's a decision it's a

your indecision it's a decision it's a decision to avoid

decision to avoid fundamentally no and part of the

fundamentally no and part of the moral that's embedded in the story of

moral that's embedded in the story of Job And in the Christian passion is that

Job And in the Christian passion is that you can Master what you'll

you can Master what you'll face and maybe that's true maybe that's

face and maybe that's true maybe that's true I mean the clinical literature

true I mean the clinical literature seems to indicate that it's true because

seems to indicate that it's true because one of the things you do if you're

one of the things you do if you're a competent

a competent clinician is you look at what people are

clinician is you look at what people are attempting to accomplish and and maybe

attempting to accomplish and and maybe that needs some retooling but let's

that needs some retooling but let's assume that they have a goal in mind

assume that they have a goal in mind that would work right you've talked it

that would work right you've talked it through with them strategically they

through with them strategically they have a well-laid out Vision okay now

have a well-laid out Vision okay now they're laying out the vision and they

they're laying out the vision and they encounter impediments that stop them and

encounter impediments that stop them and maybe they're impediments that make them

maybe they're impediments that make them afraid and paralyze them and so then

afraid and paralyze them and so then what you do is

what you do is you decompose the impediment just as we

you decompose the impediment just as we talked about earlier until you find a

talked about earlier until you find a way they can

way they can advance that constitutes a genuine

advance that constitutes a genuine advance that they'll actually do so what

advance that they'll actually do so what you do is you take the problem and you

you do is you take the problem and you narrow it until they'll face it okay

narrow it until they'll face it okay then they face it then what happens they

then they face it then what happens they get more competent that's what happens

get more competent that's what happens and then they get better at facing all

and then they get better at facing all problems so they don't just learn how to

problems so they don't just learn how to deal with that specific problem they

deal with that specific problem they learn a lesson that generalizes across

learn a lesson that generalizes across problems they get braver when you do

problems they get braver when you do when you use exposure therapy people

when you use exposure therapy people don't get less afraid they get braver

don't get less afraid they get braver that's way better cuz braver braver

that's way better cuz braver braver moves from situation to situation okay

moves from situation to situation okay so the question is here here's the

so the question is here here's the question if you faced everything that

question if you faced everything that was put in front of you who would you be

was put in front of you who would you be well the answer the biblical answer is

well the answer the biblical answer is you'd be a true Son of God that's the

you'd be a true Son of God that's the biblical answer it's like well do you

biblical answer it's like well do you believe that well it depends on what you

believe that well it depends on what you mean by

mean by believe do you think that you do you

believe do you think that you do you have a better bet than facing what's

have a better bet than facing what's there well you just have to be sensible

there well you just have to be sensible about it for a moment it's like is your

about it for a moment it's like is your theory that you're going to adapt better

theory that you're going to adapt better using falsehood and

using falsehood and avoidance because that's the contrary

avoidance because that's the contrary Theory you either face

Theory you either face it and you do that predicated on the

it and you do that predicated on the faith that something in you will respond

faith that something in you will respond if you do or you don't face it those

if you do or you don't face it those that's it those are the options if you

that's it those are the options if you don't face it that's Faith too that's

don't face it that's Faith too that's faith in the notion that avoidance and

faith in the notion that avoidance and deception will

deception will suffice I think that for a lot of people

suffice I think that for a lot of people it's it's born out of fear it's born out

it's it's born out of fear it's born out of being a people pleaser yeah and not

of being a people pleaser yeah and not wanting to hurt other people around you

wanting to hurt other people around you and not wanting to tell them things that

and not wanting to tell them things that they don't want to hear or not doing or

they don't want to hear or not doing or saying things that you know are going to

saying things that you know are going to upset the people that are around you

upset the people that are around you right but in the short term again yeah

right but in the short term again yeah in the short term again you know if if

in the short term again you know if if you look at a good mother a good mother

you look at a good mother a good mother upsets her kids a lot quit doing that

upsets her kids a lot quit doing that why well why why not just let your

why well why why not just let your children do exactly what they want when

children do exactly what they want when they answer to that is well first of all

they answer to that is well first of all it terrifies them because kids actually

it terrifies them because kids actually want they want walls they don't want to

want they want walls they don't want to be in the desert doing anything they

be in the desert doing anything they want they want a wall space in which

want they want a wall space in which they have the optimal amount of Freedom

they have the optimal amount of Freedom so a person who truly loves someone else

so a person who truly loves someone else doesn't strive at all cost never to

doesn't strive at all cost never to upset them that's that's the devouring

upset them that's that's the devouring mother if if you love someone well

mother if if you love someone well that's the biblical quote you chastise

that's the biblical quote you chastise them well what does it mean it's like

them well what does it mean it's like look if you love someone and they're

look if you love someone and they're doing something stupid and

doing something stupid and self-destructive and you can see it it's

self-destructive and you can see it it's incumbent on you to say you know this is

incumbent on you to say you know this is going to upset you but as far as I can

going to upset you but as far as I can tell you're doing something stupid and

tell you're doing something stupid and self-destructive and then there's going

self-destructive and then there's going to be a tussle about that because

to be a tussle about that because they're going to say well who are you to

they're going to say well who are you to judge and that's a perfectly good

judge and that's a perfectly good question is what makes you think you're

question is what makes you think you're right and here's the reasons I'm doing

right and here's the reasons I'm doing this and you know these are the Terrible

this and you know these are the Terrible experien that I've had that have led me

experien that I've had that have led me to take this path and sometimes that can

to take this path and sometimes that can be really compelling you know you meet

be really compelling you know you meet people who are bitter and resentful and

people who are bitter and resentful and then they tell you about their life and

then they tell you about their life and you think well yeah

you think well yeah but but then you meet people who've had

but but then you meet people who've had just as terrible a life who aren't

just as terrible a life who aren't bitter and resentful right and they're

bitter and resentful right and they're doing better and so even if it seems

doing better and so even if it seems justifiable maybe even if it is

justifiable maybe even if it is justifiable it's not justifiable one of

justifiable it's not justifiable one of the most common situations I think that

the most common situations I think that this people pleasing tendency would show

this people pleasing tendency would show up is someone who maybe thinks that they

up is someone who maybe thinks that they should break up with a relationship but

should break up with a relationship but doesn't do it and sticks about in order

doesn't do it and sticks about in order to protect their partner and I found a

to protect their partner and I found a thread on Reddit that was five questions

thread on Reddit that was five questions to ask yourself if you're unsure about

to ask yourself if you're unsure about your

your relationship if someone told you you're

relationship if someone told you you're a lot like your partner would this be a

a lot like your partner would this be a compliment to you are you truly

compliment to you are you truly fulfilled or just less lonely are you

fulfilled or just less lonely are you able to be unapologetically yourself or

able to be unapologetically yourself or do you feel the need to show up

do you feel the need to show up differently to police is your partner

differently to police is your partner are you in love with who your partner is

are you in love with who your partner is right now as a whole or are you only in

right now as a whole or are you only in love with their good side their

love with their good side their potential or the idea of them and would

potential or the idea of them and would you want your future or imagined child

you want your future or imagined child to date someone like your partner and

to date someone like your partner and this thread was just filled with people

this thread was just filled with people having existential crisis and it seemed

having existential crisis and it seemed to me to

to me to be a collection of people who had

be a collection of people who had managed to believe that continuing to

managed to believe that continuing to Manana Manana the short-term MH

Manana Manana the short-term MH postponement of the discomfort of the

postponement of the discomfort of the decision that they wanted to have around

decision that they wanted to have around their partner uh was somehow the noble

their partner uh was somehow the noble thing to do or the good thing to do or

thing to do or the good thing to do or The Virtuous thing to do or the thing

The Virtuous thing to do or the thing that ultimately would result in the best

that ultimately would result in the best outcome even though they knew that if

outcome even though they knew that if they spread it out long enough and then

they spread it out long enough and then it's just hidden we just shov under the

it's just hidden we just shov under the rug so yeah that uh list of five

rug so yeah that uh list of five questions I think uh well in most

questions I think uh well in most relationships you can break up or you

relationships you can break up or you can have a thousand

can have a thousand fights you know and if you have a

fights you know and if you have a thousand fights then you don't have to

thousand fights then you don't have to fight

fight you make peace that way you know because

you make peace that way you know because you're different than your partner so

you're different than your partner so there's things to work out there and you

there's things to work out there and you might think about that as a compromise

might think about that as a compromise but it's not it's

but it's not it's that you're different than your partner

that you're different than your partner and you have to find a game that you

and you have to find a game that you both want to play that's not a

both want to play that's not a compromise that's a solution it's like

compromise that's a solution it's like you bring your skills to the table and I

you bring your skills to the table and I bring my skills to the table and then we

bring my skills to the table and then we figure out some game we can play where

figure out some game we can play where we're both optimally utilized and it's a

we're both optimally utilized and it's a better game than we can play alone

better game than we can play alone that's not a compromise

that's not a compromise well but getting to that very difficult

well but getting to that very difficult and people bring all sorts of baggage to

and people bring all sorts of baggage to a relationship and you have to it's just

a relationship and you have to it's just like disciplining children really it's

like disciplining children really it's the same thing your children are you

the same thing your children are you note your children are annoying you you

note your children are annoying you you can note that oh there I'm being annoyed

can note that oh there I'm being annoyed by my child okay so what questions do

by my child okay so what questions do you ask am I a tyrannical son of a [ __ ]

you ask am I a tyrannical son of a [ __ ] who's touchy well that's why you need

who's touchy well that's why you need your wife cuz you can go ask her my kids

your wife cuz you can go ask her my kids are annoying me am I a tyrannical son of

are annoying me am I a tyrannical son of a [ __ ] who's touchy and she said said

a [ __ ] who's touchy and she said said yeah you probably need something to eat

yeah you probably need something to eat or you're a bit of a prick that way and

or you're a bit of a prick that way and you got to listen because maybe it's you

you got to listen because maybe it's you or maybe she says yeah that goddamn

or maybe she says yeah that goddamn child's been getting on my case too and

child's been getting on my case too and then you ask each other are we mutually

then you ask each other are we mutually tyrants it's like no that kid's annoying

tyrants it's like no that kid's annoying okay do we want him to be

okay do we want him to be annoying well if you love your child

annoying well if you love your child then the answer to that would be no

then the answer to that would be no because if he's annoying you he's going

because if he's annoying you he's going to annoy other people he's going to

to annoy other people he's going to annoy his potential friends he's going

annoy his potential friends he's going to annoy other adults he's going to go

to annoy other adults he's going to go through the world being annoying and

through the world being annoying and everyone's going to frown at him that's

everyone's going to frown at him that's not helpful so then you could just fix

not helpful so then you could just fix it and you're that's going to cause some

it and you're that's going to cause some short-term upset you know you're maybe

short-term upset you know you're maybe you have a like a 13-month-old child

you have a like a 13-month-old child who's very extroverted and disagreeable

who's very extroverted and disagreeable who like rules the roost and every time

who like rules the roost and every time the mother goes more than a foot away

the mother goes more than a foot away from her she has a squawk fit because

from her she has a squawk fit because she's learned to control maybe the

she's learned to control maybe the mother you know was still tied up with

mother you know was still tied up with infant care and can't put down a

infant care and can't put down a boundary and so now you have to do

boundary and so now you have to do something about this emerging monster of

something about this emerging monster of a 14-month-old child and one of the

a 14-month-old child and one of the things you do is every time the child is

things you do is every time the child is bossy first of all you note it and you

bossy first of all you note it and you note that you're not very fond of

note that you're not very fond of yourself for being tyrannized by a

yourself for being tyrannized by a 14-month-old that's a bit of a status

14-month-old that's a bit of a status hit like it should be so you have to

hit like it should be so you have to notice I'm annoyed by this child then I

notice I'm annoyed by this child then I should do something about it well it's

should do something about it well it's going to cause short-term emotional

going to cause short-term emotional distress the same thing UR when you're

distress the same thing UR when you're dealing with your partner it's like

dealing with your partner it's like you're annoying me okay now maybe that's

you're annoying me okay now maybe that's me so I should bloody well maybe we

me so I should bloody well maybe we should have a talk about that you're

should have a talk about that you're annoying me convince me that it's me and

annoying me convince me that it's me and I should listen because maybe it's me

I should listen because maybe it's me and if I'm annoyed about you and I

and if I'm annoyed about you and I shouldn't be I should fix that but maybe

shouldn't be I should fix that but maybe it's you so let's find out exactly

it's you so let's find out exactly what's going on you know and that'll

what's going on you know and that'll usually man that's that'll there's just

usually man that's that'll there's just constant thrust and counter thrust in

constant thrust and counter thrust in the discuss discussion like that and

the discuss discussion like that and usually you know the conversation will

usually you know the conversation will circle around whatever the hell the

circle around whatever the hell the issue is till you get to the bottom of

issue is till you get to the bottom of it and God only knows where that is but

it and God only knows where that is but then maybe you can sort it out you know

then maybe you can sort it out you know and if you sort out enough of those

and if you sort out enough of those things you live in peace and that's

things you live in peace and that's something worth attaining you know and

something worth attaining you know and I've thought forever in my marriage

I've thought forever in my marriage there's nothing there's nothing too

there's nothing there's nothing too small to fight about now you know I put

small to fight about now you know I put in some rules that I used to have with

in some rules that I used to have with my clients too it's like if someone bugs

my clients too it's like if someone bugs you you should note that and you

you you should note that and you shouldn't do anything about it probably

shouldn't do anything about it probably if they bug you twice the same way then

if they bug you twice the same way then you think oh okay that's twice but

you think oh okay that's twice but probably still you shouldn't do anything

probably still you shouldn't do anything about it but if they bug you three times

about it but if they bug you three times then you can

then you can say here's what you just did and they'll

say here's what you just did and they'll say well no I didn't do that and then

say well no I didn't do that and then you say yeah you did and you did exactly

you say yeah you did and you did exactly the same thing in this other situation

the same thing in this other situation and you did exactly the same thing in

and you did exactly the same thing in this other situation so don't be telling

this other situation so don't be telling me you didn't do it cuz you did it three

me you didn't do it cuz you did it three times and I watched okay now they come

times and I watched okay now they come up with reasons they did it and maybe

up with reasons they did it and maybe some of them have to do with what a

some of them have to do with what a stupid son of a [ __ ] you are and you

stupid son of a [ __ ] you are and you should listen because maybe they're

should listen because maybe they're right but that's at least the beginnings

right but that's at least the beginnings of the process by which you unravel the

of the process by which you unravel the problems you want to figure out well we

problems you want to figure out well we don't want to do this this isn't the way

don't want to do this this isn't the way we want to treat each other we want to

we want to treat each other we want to get to a place

where we want to get to a place where our whole life is like the best moments

our whole life is like the best moments of the best dates we ever

of the best dates we ever had that's a good goal and that's that's

had that's a good goal and that's that's that's attainable it you got to work man

that's attainable it you got to work man there's there's a the scene in the in

there's there's a the scene in the in Genesis God throws Adam and Eve out of

Genesis God throws Adam and Eve out of paradise because of their pride their

paradise because of their pride their sin of

sin of Pride they each have their own

Pride they each have their own particular version of that sin Eve's sin

particular version of that sin Eve's sin and Adam's but they get thrown out of

and Adam's but they get thrown out of paradise anyways for pride and God puts

paradise anyways for pride and God puts cherubs at the gates of paradise and the

cherubs at the gates of paradise and the cherubs they're kind of these monstrous

cherubs they're kind of these monstrous Angels terrifying figures and they hold

Angels terrifying figures and they hold swords that are on fire that turn Every

swords that are on fire that turn Every Witch Way and burn and you might say

Witch Way and burn and you might say well what does that mean and it means

well what does that mean and it means that well a sword is something that cuts

that well a sword is something that cuts away right a sharp blade and a and fire

away right a sharp blade and a and fire is something that burns and a sword that

is something that burns and a sword that Burns Burns and cuts away and a sword

Burns Burns and cuts away and a sword that burns and

that burns and turns every which way is a burning sword

turns every which way is a burning sword from which nothing can

from which nothing can escape okay now you want to walk into

escape okay now you want to walk into Paradise everything that isn't worthy in

Paradise everything that isn't worthy in you has to be burned and cut away right

you has to be burned and cut away right well that's what that conflict is in a

well that's what that conflict is in a relationship you know it's like that's

relationship you know it's like that's not suitable for Paradise what does it

not suitable for Paradise what does it have to do it has to be cast into the

have to do it has to be cast into the outer Darkness where there will will be

outer Darkness where there will will be nashing of teeth right it has to be cut

nashing of teeth right it has to be cut away and destroyed and everything that

away and destroyed and everything that isn't worthy has to go well the

isn't worthy has to go well the Michelangelo effect is all about you and

Michelangelo effect is all about you and your partner becoming the idealized

your partner becoming the idealized version of each other right you are

version of each other right you are going to do for me the things that I

going to do for me the things that I want within your parameters of control

want within your parameters of control that you want to be the best partner for

that you want to be the best partner for me and I want to do the same for you and

me and I want to do the same for you and we're both going to communicate to each

we're both going to communicate to each other and we're going to stand our

other and we're going to stand our ground where we have boundaries and

ground where we have boundaries and we're going to Contin to compromise

we're going to Contin to compromise that's what love should do that's what

that's what love should do that's what love should do like if you love

love should do like if you love someone if it's genuine love you

someone if it's genuine love you see you see their hidden Soul that's a

see you see their hidden Soul that's a good way of thinking about it you get a

good way of thinking about it you get a glimpse of the light that they could

glimpse of the light that they could reveal to the world if they revealed it

reveal to the world if they revealed it that's what you see and then to act in

that's what you see and then to act in love is to encourage that to come

love is to encourage that to come forward and to discourage anything that

forward and to discourage anything that gets in its way that's why I love the

gets in its way that's why I love the the Michelangelo effect heard of and I'd

the Michelangelo effect heard of and I'd been using it okay so why the

been using it okay so why the Michelangelo effect this is why

Michelangelo effect this is why Michelangelo sees this huge massive UNH

Michelangelo sees this huge massive UNH block I see I see and inside of that he

block I see I see and inside of that he is able to see davidh and over time

is able to see davidh and over time slowly he will chip away and he will

slowly he will chip away and he will chip away and he will chip away so you

chip away and he will chip away so you see something that isn't there that's

see something that isn't there that's inside of the thing which is rough and

inside of the thing which is rough and UNH and uncivilized and undomesticated

UNH and uncivilized and undomesticated and rambunctious and and sometimes

and rambunctious and and sometimes terrible and you were able to from that

terrible and you were able to from that Al that's actually part of the daing the

Al that's actually part of the daing the uncarved block so a child is an uncarved

uncarved block so a child is an uncarved Block in in in the dowst view and and

Block in in in the dowst view and and you remove everything that's excess

you remove everything that's excess until what's perfect remains right and

until what's perfect remains right and that's see the the logos in the Old and

that's see the the logos in the Old and New Testament the logos that creates the

New Testament the logos that creates the world is the judging faculty

world is the judging faculty that what would you say that separates

that what would you say that separates the wheat from the

the wheat from the chaff right and it's not it's compassion

chaff right and it's not it's compassion in a sense because if you're

in a sense because if you're compassionate towards someone you want

compassionate towards someone you want what's best for them all things

what's best for them all things considered but that compassion in the

considered but that compassion in the highest sense can't exist without

highest sense can't exist without judgment because the judgment is this

judgment because the judgment is this part of you isn't worthy to continue and

part of you isn't worthy to continue and certainly that's what you're doing with

certainly that's what you're doing with your children when you see them

your children when you see them misbehaving you think no that's no not

misbehaving you think no that's no not that not that something more

that not that something more sophisticated even with my little

sophisticated even with my little granddaughter the other day she's very

granddaughter the other day she's very very playful and she's a very nice

very playful and she's a very nice little girl she's very playful and very

little girl she's very playful and very fun and funny and not neurotic and so

fun and funny and not neurotic and so she's a pleasure to be around but she

she's a pleasure to be around but she hasn't seen me for a while and so she

hasn't seen me for a while and so she was poking me getting me to chase her

was poking me getting me to chase her around and poking me and she'd come up

around and poking me and she'd come up and give me a whack you know and at one

and give me a whack you know and at one point she whacked me too hard and she

point she whacked me too hard and she knew it and I said that's not fun that's

knew it and I said that's not fun that's not acceptable and then she stopped but

not acceptable and then she stopped but she was playing with that edge trying to

she was playing with that edge trying to find out where fun is and you know can

find out where fun is and you know can how hard can I hit Grandpa she doesn't

how hard can I hit Grandpa she doesn't bloody well know she kind of knows but

bloody well know she kind of knows but she needs to know exactly well I can't

she needs to know exactly well I can't let her get away with it because then

let her get away with it because then she's not fun to play with she has to

she's not fun to play with she has to learn to come and give her Grandpa a

learn to come and give her Grandpa a whack and exactly the way that elicits a

whack and exactly the way that elicits a playful response and that isn't annoying

playful response and that isn't annoying and so there's a very you know you might

and so there's a very you know you might think well it's pretty harsh judgment to

think well it's pretty harsh judgment to lay on a 5-year-old it's like no it's

lay on a 5-year-old it's like no it's not I would like her to be the most fun

not I would like her to be the most fun kid to play with that she could be right

kid to play with that she could be right and so I'm not going to pretend that

and so I'm not going to pretend that it's okay when it's not not setting that

it's okay when it's not not setting that boundary is almost like a curse it is a

boundary is almost like a curse it is a curse yeah there you go away we would

curse yeah there you go away we would because then how's she going to play

because then how's she going to play with other with other kids if she

with other with other kids if she doesn't know the they're not going to be

doesn't know the they're not going to be as forgiving as Grandpa definitely not

as forgiving as Grandpa definitely not yeah we were talking before we got

yeah we were talking before we got started I had this conversation with

started I had this conversation with Robert spolski and it it was really

Robert spolski and it it was really really profound I mean I know that he's

really profound I mean I know that he's a brilliant guy and this new book of his

a brilliant guy and this new book of his is about sort of Free Will and

is about sort of Free Will and determinism which has got an upper bound

determinism which has got an upper bound on how interesting that is for me but he

on how interesting that is for me but he gave this quotee to Andrew hubman where

gave this quotee to Andrew hubman where he said dopamine is not about the

he said dopamine is not about the pursuit of happiness it is about the

pursuit of happiness it is about the happiness of pursuit right that's

happiness of pursuit right that's definitely right and I I haven't been

definitely right and I I haven't been able to stop seeing this everywhere so

able to stop seeing this everywhere so uh Morgan housel um a friend told me

uh Morgan housel um a friend told me this great story uh he is an investor

this great story uh he is an investor he's got a fund he's an author he's got

he's got a fund he's an author he's got a family he's got all of these things

a family he's got all of these things they plan to go away in holiday and

they plan to go away in holiday and they've been planning it for a long time

they've been planning it for a long time and with the kids and the wife and him

and with the kids and the wife and him and all of his businesses it was a

and all of his businesses it was a arduous thing to go through to get

arduous thing to go through to get themselves out there and finally they

themselves out there and finally they get there after the journey and the

get there after the journey and the plane and the children and the crying

plane and the children and the crying and all the rest of it and he walks out

and all the rest of it and he walks out on the balcony on the first night of

on the balcony on the first night of this holiday that they've planned for

this holiday that they've planned for forever and his first thought to himself

forever and his first thought to himself was wouldn't it be great if we came back

was wouldn't it be great if we came back here next year it would be so great if

here next year it would be so great if we could come back here next year so

we could come back here next year so literally during the supposed enjoyment

literally during the supposed enjoyment of the destination he was already

of the destination he was already thinking about the journey and you know

thinking about the journey and you know it's not the journey it's not the

it's not the journey it's not the destination it's the journey is kind of

destination it's the journey is kind of TR but it it puts a new perspective on

TR but it it puts a new perspective on it there is no destination each

it there is no destination each destination is simply the beginning of

destination is simply the beginning of the next journey and I haven't not been

the next journey and I haven't not been I haven't not been able to see it I see

I haven't not been able to see it I see it I see it everywhere I see it

it I see it everywhere I see it everywhere in my own life well there's

everywhere in my own life well there's there's technically two different forms

there's technically two different forms of reward there's consumatory reward and

of reward there's consumatory reward and so that's the reward that's what an

so that's the reward that's what an orgasm is it's consumatory reward it's

orgasm is it's consumatory reward it's it it brings the behavioral and

it it brings the behavioral and perceptual sequence to a halt it ends it

perceptual sequence to a halt it ends it right at the climax it ends it but then

right at the climax it ends it but then it's over that journey is over right

it's over that journey is over right then there's the dopaminergic reward

then there's the dopaminergic reward that spolski was talking about and

that spolski was talking about and dopaminergic reward is evidence of

dopaminergic reward is evidence of advancement towards a goal right okay so

advancement towards a goal right okay so so there's a corollary to

so there's a corollary to that well how do you become optimally

that well how do you become optimally engaged because dopamine facilitates

engaged because dopamine facilitates engagement and focus which is why drugs

engagement and focus which is why drugs like amphetamines can be used for kids

like amphetamines can be used for kids who

who are attention deficit disordered you T

are attention deficit disordered you T tap up the dopamine response they lock

tap up the dopamine response they lock on right okay so they're locking on to a

on right okay so they're locking on to a goal directed Pursuit the problem with

goal directed Pursuit the problem with amphetamines is that they can lock you

amphetamines is that they can lock you on so hard you can't get out of the

on so hard you can't get out of the frame so like kids on amphetamines will

frame so like kids on amphetamines will obsess for example about cleaning up

obsess for example about cleaning up their closet they can't switch to the

their closet they can't switch to the next activity okay dopaminergic reward

next activity okay dopaminergic reward is reward that's accured in relation

is reward that's accured in relation ship to a goal okay so what what's an

ship to a goal okay so what what's an implication of that well pursue the

implication of that well pursue the highest possible goal well why because

highest possible goal well why because the kick from advancement is higher now

the kick from advancement is higher now you have to balance that it can't be you

you have to balance that it can't be you have to advance right because imagine

have to advance right because imagine the rewards got two components number

the rewards got two components number one is you're moving towards something

one is you're moving towards something valuable okay so you want it to be as

valuable okay so you want it to be as valuable as possible okay but you have

valuable as possible okay but you have to be moving so it can't be so valuable

to be moving so it can't be so valuable that it's out of your reach to the Moon

that it's out of your reach to the Moon I'm not going to be able to see every

I'm not going to be able to see every single increment that I make yes you

single increment that I make yes you want to get to the moon that's right you

want to get to the moon that's right you can't walk there so it's a bad plan you

can't walk there so it's a bad plan you need something extremely valuable that

need something extremely valuable that you can move towards okay so part of the

you can move towards okay so part of the reason that you establish a relationship

reason that you establish a relationship with God let's say is because that's

with God let's say is because that's what sets the upper bound to your vision

what sets the upper bound to your vision it's like I want things to be the best

it's like I want things to be the best they could be that's a vision of

they could be that's a vision of paradise well that has to be

paradise well that has to be fractionated into you know your proximal

fractionated into you know your proximal decisions but lurking behind that should

decisions but lurking behind that should be this continual movement towards what

be this continual movement towards what would you say a heaven that Reeds as you

would you say a heaven that Reeds as you approach it that's a proper vision of

approach it that's a proper vision of Heaven A Heaven is a place that's

Heaven A Heaven is a place that's perfect and getting

perfect and getting better both at the same time that's what

better both at the same time that's what music shows you because a great piece of

music shows you because a great piece of music is perfect but it's just getting

music is perfect but it's just getting better as it unfolds and and you need

better as it unfolds and and you need that this is part of the problem with a

that this is part of the problem with a static utopian Vision something dovi

static utopian Vision something dovi criticized

criticized if you gave people Nothing But

if you gave people Nothing But consumatory reward he famously says so

consumatory reward he famously says so that they can do nothing but sit in tubs

that they can do nothing but sit in tubs of hot water eat cake and busy

of hot water eat cake and busy themselves with the with the

themselves with the with the continuation of the species human beings

continuation of the species human beings would break that all to Hell in a moment

would break that all to Hell in a moment just so they have something interesting

just so they have something interesting to do what was that quote that you said

to do what was that quote that you said on Rogan years

on Rogan years ago if we were to make the world

ago if we were to make the world sufficiently perfect the only desired

sufficiently perfect the only desired lack would be for the desire of lack

lack would be for the desire of lack itself what's that kard what's the

itself what's that kard what's the what's the proper can you remember the

what's the proper can you remember the prop well kirkgard pointed out that if

prop well kirkgard pointed out that if we if as we make the world easier and

we if as we make the world easier and easier so this is perhaps part of the

easier so this is perhaps part of the problem with the material plenty that's

problem with the material plenty that's at hand is that at some point what

at hand is that at some point what becomes lacking is lack itself yes right

becomes lacking is lack itself yes right yes exactly exactly it's optimal

yes exactly exactly it's optimal deprivation you know and if everything

deprivation you know and if everything is delivered to you on a platter it's

is delivered to you on a platter it's like what the hell are you even doing

like what the hell are you even doing there this happens in the the story of

there this happens in the the story of Abraham so Abraham who's the father of

Abraham so Abraham who's the father of Nations right so Abraham gets it right

Nations right so Abraham gets it right he has everything at the beginning of

he has everything at the beginning of the story he has Rich parents he has

the story he has Rich parents he has he's he's got nothing that he has to do

he's he's got nothing that he has to do he's like 70 when the story opens he's

he's like 70 when the story opens he's been taken care of hand and foot his

been taken care of hand and foot his whole life and the voice of God comes to

whole life and the voice of God comes to him and says I'm the god of your

him and says I'm the god of your ancestors telling you get out of your

ancestors telling you get out of your zone of comfort get out into the world

zone of comfort get out into the world and Abraham's pretty old by this point

and Abraham's pretty old by this point but for whatever reason he decides that

but for whatever reason he decides that he's going to forgo the comfort for the

he's going to forgo the comfort for the adventure and then as Abraham progresses

adventure and then as Abraham progresses he makes the requisite sacrifices each

he makes the requisite sacrifices each becoming more difficult as he ascends

becoming more difficult as he ascends and he adopts this pattern of

and he adopts this pattern of relationship with the god that calls him

relationship with the god that calls him to Adventure that literally makes him

to Adventure that literally makes him the father of Nations and so you can

the father of Nations and so you can even think about that biologically if

even think about that biologically if you want you might as well

you want you might as well people like Dawkins think reproduction

people like Dawkins think reproduction is

is sex and that's why he can talk for

sex and that's why he can talk for example about the selfish Gene making

example about the selfish Gene making itself manifest in sex reproduction

itself manifest in sex reproduction isn't

isn't sex sex is a necessary but insufficient

sex sex is a necessary but insufficient precondition for

precondition for reproduction Abraham adopts a motive

reproduction Abraham adopts a motive being a sacrificial motive being that

being a sacrificial motive being that establishes the optimal environment for

establishes the optimal environment for his sons who then establish the op

his sons who then establish the op optimal environment for their sons and

optimal environment for their sons and their sons and their sons so you can

their sons and their sons so you can imagine that what Abraham is doing this

imagine that what Abraham is doing this is what the story means is he's adopting

is what the story means is he's adopting a mode of behavior that works best All

a mode of behavior that works best All Things Considered across multiple

Things Considered across multiple generations and he sacrifices everything

generations and he sacrifices everything to that it's this incredibly expansive

to that it's this incredibly expansive Vision given that we're in a world which

Vision given that we're in a world which is comfortable

is comfortable and we we have created buildings in

and we we have created buildings in which there are heavy things that you

which there are heavy things that you pick up and put down in in the same

pick up and put down in in the same place because it's simply so rare that

place because it's simply so rare that you have to pick up heavy things

you have to pick up heavy things right bumps on our roads for the same

right bumps on our roads for the same reason proliferation of ice baths and

reason proliferation of ice baths and sauner and and and and even reading to

sauner and and and and even reading to some extent you know difficult reading

some extent you know difficult reading difficult

difficult things where should people go given that

things where should people go given that they are in a a world which is more

they are in a a world which is more comfortable than ever before where

comfortable than ever before where should they go to encourage them to find

should they go to encourage them to find difficult things truth

difficult things truth truth is what's optimally difficult the

truth is what's optimally difficult the truth is optimally difficult that's a

truth is optimally difficult that's a really wonderful thing to know the truth

really wonderful thing to know the truth is Adventure there's no there's no

is Adventure there's no there's no distinction partly

distinction partly because if you're going to just say what

because if you're going to just say what you believe to be true you have to let

you believe to be true you have to let go of the consequences you can't predict

go of the consequences you can't predict the

the consequences well there's no difference

consequences well there's no difference between not being able to predict the

between not being able to predict the consequences in having an adventure

consequences in having an adventure they're the same thing right if you knew

they're the same thing right if you knew the consequences it would be an

the consequences it would be an adventure it's not an adventure if if

adventure it's not an adventure if if the if the consequences are forgone the

the if the consequences are forgone the same as it's no sacrifice or courage if

same as it's no sacrifice or courage if there's no risk right right right it's

there's no risk right right right it's exactly the same and so it's a it's a

exactly the same and so it's a it's a wonderful thing to know that optimized

wonderful thing to know that optimized Adventure is to be had in the truth I

Adventure is to be had in the truth I think in every given situation so Christ

think in every given situation so Christ says in The Sermon on the Mount that to

says in The Sermon on the Mount that to orient yourself properly and it's often

orient yourself properly and it's often viewed as this hippie pay on take no

viewed as this hippie pay on take no thought of the moral the moral will take

thought of the moral the moral will take care of itself you know God takes care

care of itself you know God takes care of The Sparrows he'll certainly take

of The Sparrows he'll certainly take care of you it's like a hippie wet dream

care of you it's like a hippie wet dream it isn't what that isn't the that isn't

it isn't what that isn't the that isn't the core of the message the the core of

the core of the message the the core of the message is very straightforward

the message is very straightforward Christ says aim up to the highest thing

Christ says aim up to the highest thing you can possibly imagine so that's the

you can possibly imagine so that's the relationship with God you put what's at

relationship with God you put what's at the Pinnacle properly at the Pinnacle

the Pinnacle properly at the Pinnacle and you aim at that and

and you aim at that and then you

then you concentrate that and it's that and

concentrate that and it's that and treating other people like you would

treating other people like you would like to be treated yourself that sets

like to be treated yourself that sets the moral frame then you attend to the

the moral frame then you attend to the day and the cares of the day it's like

day and the cares of the day it's like once you've established the proper moral

once you've established the proper moral frame you pay attention to the day and

frame you pay attention to the day and you live in truth and that moves you

you live in truth and that moves you towards that destination you have to

towards that destination you have to have the orientation right you have to

have the orientation right you have to be aiming up but then it's just a matter

be aiming up but then it's just a matter of what would you say abiding by the

of what would you say abiding by the truth that's the logos that sets people

truth that's the logos that sets people free and that's right doing it properly

free and that's right doing it properly right there was one of the other rules

right there was one of the other rules that didn't make it into your book uh

that didn't make it into your book uh nothing Well Done is insignificant right

nothing Well Done is insignificant right right right right yeah well you acrew so

right right right yeah well you acrew so Christ tells his followers in the

Christ tells his followers in the gospels to to store up treasure in

gospels to to store up treasure in heaven not in the places that MTH can

heaven not in the places that MTH can eat and rust can destroy well what is

eat and rust can destroy well what is that what is meant by that well it's

that what is meant by that well it's meant by the same it means the same

meant by the same it means the same thing that you just pointed to which is

thing that you just pointed to which is that

that if you run yourself through a disciplin

if you run yourself through a disciplin disciplinary process so you accomplish

disciplinary process so you accomplish something maybe it doesn't you don't

something maybe it doesn't you don't attain the goal you were aiming at but

attain the goal you were aiming at but you acrw a new way of looking at the

you acrw a new way of looking at the world and a set of skills well if you

world and a set of skills well if you just keep doing that you have multiple

just keep doing that you have multiple ways of looking at the world in more and

ways of looking at the world in more and more skill well that's that's your

more skill well that's that's your Storehouse of treasure you

Storehouse of treasure you know the reason women use wealth as a

know the reason women use wealth as a proxy for attractiveness is because

proxy for attractiveness is because wealth is a proxy for competence it's

wealth is a proxy for competence it's not competence because you can be rich

not competence because you can be rich and useless now it's not that easy but

and useless now it's not that easy but it can at least happen temporarily but

it can at least happen temporarily but women use markers of wealth to assess

women use markers of wealth to assess competence and the competence is the

competence and the competence is the treasure not the wealth because if

treasure not the wealth because if you're competent you could be thrown

you're competent you could be thrown into the desert and you'll make it Bloom

into the desert and you'll make it Bloom I've said this about uh people that go

I've said this about uh people that go to the gym so from the outside someone

to the gym so from the outside someone that goes to the gym and has got a good

that goes to the gym and has got a good body or whatever there the body and it

body or whatever there the body and it this is what you get to touch during sex

this is what you get to touch during sex when you're into

but they is more important I think than the way that it manifests physically

the way that it manifests physically it's someone who is reliable who is able

it's someone who is reliable who is able to overcome hard things who is self

to overcome hard things who is self disiplined it's just this whole big long

disiplined it's just this whole big long laundry list of things that they're able

laundry list of things that they're able to uh deal with pain and discomfort

to uh deal with pain and discomfort which is kind of sexy in a way uh well

which is kind of sexy in a way uh well it's the perfect it's the perfect

it's the perfect it's the perfect materialist disciplinary strategy right

materialist disciplinary strategy right because it's very concrete well you

because it's very concrete well you change your body it's like is that a

change your body it's like is that a spiritual Pursuit well it is in so far

spiritual Pursuit well it is in so far as it requires you know long-term

as it requires you know long-term discipline and and sacrifice and you

discipline and and sacrifice and you might hope and I think this is likely

might hope and I think this is likely the case that you know you can get stuck

the case that you know you can get stuck in the bodily self-improvement Niche and

in the bodily self-improvement Niche and and focus on that too obsessively but

and focus on that too obsessively but you can also use it as a stepping stone

you can also use it as a stepping stone to discipline Pursuit itself and lots of

to discipline Pursuit itself and lots of people do that I think I told you the

people do that I think I told you the last time that we chatted about Mano

last time that we chatted about Mano pause this thing that I'd come up with

pause this thing that I'd come up with so I noticed toward the end of my 20s

so I noticed toward the end of my 20s that lots of guys who had been training

that lots of guys who had been training with a particular modality usually

with a particular modality usually bodybuilding usually exclusively for the

bodybuilding usually exclusively for the way that they looked realized as they

way that they looked realized as they approached their 30s that they were

approached their 30s that they were getting out of breath going up a set of

getting out of breath going up a set of stairs and that they maybe couldn't

stairs and that they maybe couldn't touch their toes and they looked

touch their toes and they looked fantastic but I know they they just felt

fantastic but I know they they just felt like they should maybe start to Value

like they should maybe start to Value different things and they then changed

different things and they then changed their training and they would go and do

their training and they would go and do Brazilian jiu-jitsu or yoga or CrossFit

Brazilian jiu-jitsu or yoga or CrossFit or you know some other form of whatever

or you know some other form of whatever and that precipitated a change in

and that precipitated a change in everything else and I saw this in myself

everything else and I saw this in myself right I get toward the end of my 20s

right I get toward the end of my 20s I've achieved success in many of the

I've achieved success in many of the ways that Society tells a young man that

ways that Society tells a young man that he should value success there was a

he should value success there was a discordance something fell off and you

discordance something fell off and you then think okay

then think okay well maybe I need to assess whether or

well maybe I need to assess whether or not the things that I've been told I

not the things that I've been told I should want are things that I actually

should want are things that I actually want to want and very quickly you

want to want and very quickly you realize and I don't know it feels like a

realize and I don't know it feels like a quarterlife crisis I think so many men

quarterlife crisis I think so many men go through this they go I either

go through this they go I either succeeded or didn't succeed at a game

succeeded or didn't succeed at a game that I was told that I was supposed to

that I was told that I was supposed to Value playing and upon reflection I

Value playing and upon reflection I really don't care for it as much as I

really don't care for it as much as I thought I did maybe there was some

thought I did maybe there was some elements I was so proud of what i' done

elements I was so proud of what i' done with my business partners I was so proud

with my business partners I was so proud of the things that we'd achieved but

of the things that we'd achieved but then there was other stuff where I was

then there was other stuff where I was like why have I attach so much of my

like why have I attach so much of my sense of self worth into this and this

sense of self worth into this and this and this and then you start you have to

and this and then you start you have to assess and M the so this is what happens

assess and M the so this is what happens in the story of Exodus when Moses en

in the story of Exodus when Moses en encounters the burning

encounters the burning bush so he's just going about his

bush so he's just going about his business as a shepherd and he's doing

business as a shepherd and he's doing all right he's got two wives he likes

all right he's got two wives he likes his father-in-law he's well regarded in

his father-in-law he's well regarded in this new country that he's in he's left

this new country that he's in he's left Egypt where there's a price on his head

Egypt where there's a price on his head essentially for killing a Egyptian who

essentially for killing a Egyptian who was Tor tormenting a uh one of the

was Tor tormenting a uh one of the Hebrews anyways Moses is just going

Hebrews anyways Moses is just going about his business as a Shepherd which

about his business as a Shepherd which was a very tough job in those days and

was a very tough job in those days and this thing catches his eye this this

this thing catches his eye this this glimmer this gleam and he goes to

glimmer this gleam and he goes to investigate okay so what what does that

investigate okay so what what does that mean it means as you're progressing

mean it means as you're progressing through life something will capture your

through life something will capture your interest and in the story you just told

interest and in the story you just told it's like somebody decides they're going

it's like somebody decides they're going to start going to the gym there's

to start going to the gym there's something about becoming physically fit

something about becoming physically fit that calls to them right which is an

that calls to them right which is an interesting thing right because it calls

interesting thing right because it calls to them it's not even necessarily a

to them it's not even necessarily a decision they make it's more like a

decision they make it's more like a possibility that makes itself manifest

possibility that makes itself manifest that's of Interest so they decide to

that's of Interest so they decide to pursue it so they look into it more

pursue it so they look into it more deeply well so Moses approaches the

deeply well so Moses approaches the burning bush and he gets closer and

burning bush and he gets closer and closer right and a bush is a symbol of

closer right and a bush is a symbol of life right like it's a tree a tree of

life right like it's a tree a tree of life and a tree of life that's on fire

life and a tree of life that's on fire is being that's the life the tree and

is being that's the life the tree and becoming that's the fire the

becoming that's the fire the transformation so a burning bush is a

transformation so a burning bush is a symbol of being and becoming as such now

symbol of being and becoming as such now it's something that beckons okay so now

it's something that beckons okay so now you pursue your physical fitness cuz

you pursue your physical fitness cuz it's called to you and you concentrate

it's called to you and you concentrate more and more on it you get more and

more and more on it you get more and more disciplined but as you get more and

more disciplined but as you get more and more disciplined you start to transform

more disciplined you start to transform right and so your vision starts to

right and so your vision starts to change now what happens to Moses is that

change now what happens to Moses is that as he gets closer and closer to the

as he gets closer and closer to the burning bush he starts to realize that

burning bush he starts to realize that he's on sacred ground so he's going

he's on sacred ground so he's going deeper the investigation is taking him

deeper the investigation is taking him deeper so he takes off his shoes and and

deeper so he takes off his shoes and and continues to approach he's still going

continues to approach he's still going down the same Trail right pursuing this

down the same Trail right pursuing this thing and then the voice of God itself

thing and then the voice of God itself speaks to him from the midst of the

speaks to him from the midst of the burning bush and that's what turns him

burning bush and that's what turns him into a leader and so what does the story

into a leader and so what does the story mean it means that as you walk through

mean it means that as you walk through life in your normal mode things will

life in your normal mode things will call to you and if you pursue them they

call to you and if you pursue them they will take you deep it doesn't really

will take you deep it doesn't really matter what it is that calls what

matter what it is that calls what matters is that you pursue it and you

matters is that you pursue it and you you pursue it to the depths and as you

you pursue it to the depths and as you pursue it to the depths you will become

pursue it to the depths you will become transformed and if you do that without

transformed and if you do that without reservation that will turn you into that

reservation that will turn you into that will turn you into the person who frees

will turn you into the person who frees the slaves and opposes the tyrants and

the slaves and opposes the tyrants and that is how it works that's the call and

that is how it works that's the call and that can happen in any direction

that can happen in any direction virtually any

virtually any direction you just have to pursue it

direction you just have to pursue it with sufficient Faith

with sufficient Faith right one of the things that's been I

right one of the things that's been I guess derogated a lot by pretty much

guess derogated a lot by pretty much everybody uh at the moment is University

everybody uh at the moment is University education

education and I had such an interesting time at

and I had such an interesting time at University almost exclusively outside of

University almost exclusively outside of my education right all of the good

my education right all of the good things that happened to me while I spent

things that happened to me while I spent 5 years at

5 years at Newcastle didn't include what I was

Newcastle didn't include what I was taught it was never inside of the

taught it was never inside of the lecture theater it was everything I was

lecture theater it was everything I was doing outside of that and lots of my

doing outside of that and lots of my friends it's very trendy on the internet

friends it's very trendy on the internet to mock higher education as useless

to mock higher education as useless pieces of paper uh it's not you don't

pieces of paper uh it's not you don't need it in order to be able to be

need it in order to be able to be successful it's certainly the thing that

successful it's certainly the thing that I've ended up doing this podcast didn't

I've ended up doing this podcast didn't require me to go to university maybe in

require me to go to university maybe in some ways it did M but also from a

some ways it did M but also from a definitely from a qualification

definitely from a qualification perspective it didn't but I I think I'm

perspective it didn't but I I think I'm still relatively Pro University

still relatively Pro University experience uh and yeah you know you've

experience uh and yeah you know you've got Peterson Academy launching which is

got Peterson Academy launching which is your new thing I wondered how you

your new thing I wondered how you thought well basically are universities

thought well basically are universities salvageable given that so much that's

salvageable given that so much that's good about the university experience has

good about the university experience has almost nothing to do with the education

almost nothing to do with the education side of it

side of it H are they

H are they salvageable some are I

salvageable some are I imagine um

imagine um Hillsdale does great it's a conservative

Hillsdale does great it's a conservative College in northeastern us run by Larry

College in northeastern us run by Larry AR they have a 1% dropout rate as

AR they have a 1% dropout rate as opposed to the typical 50% dropout rate

opposed to the typical 50% dropout rate and they they provide a

and they they provide a classical what used to be a liberal

classical what used to be a liberal education Arts education it's a more

education Arts education it's a more conservative Enterprise given how the

conservative Enterprise given how the Overton window has shifted but

Overton window has shifted but Larry's students concentrate on physical

Larry's students concentrate on physical fitness his philosophy Department tends

fitness his philosophy Department tends to meet in the weight room which is

to meet in the weight room which is pretty interesting he has weight benches

pretty interesting he has weight benches scattered all around the campus about a

scattered all around the campus about a third of the students take music courses

third of the students take music courses so the place is very musical um it's a

so the place is very musical um it's a very disciplined place the quality of

very disciplined place the quality of education is Extreme extremely high so

education is Extreme extremely high so there are institutes that are holding to

there are institutes that are holding to their mandate I think that's rare and I

their mandate I think that's rare and I think overall the universities have

think overall the universities have become irretrievably corrupt as far as I

become irretrievably corrupt as far as I can tell and

can tell and so

so we had hoped that we could provide

we had hoped that we could provide something approximating an alternative

something approximating an alternative but you put your finger on one of the

but you put your finger on one of the complexities in doing that it's easy to

complexities in doing that it's easy to think that a university is the

think that a university is the transmission of Knowledge from experts

transmission of Knowledge from experts to empty vessels the students let's say

to empty vessels the students let's say so it's lectures tests and accreditation

so it's lectures tests and accreditation but that's not really what a university

but that's not really what a university is it's an apprenticeship if you're

is it's an apprenticeship if you're fortunate when you go to university you

fortunate when you go to university you find a professor or two that you can

find a professor or two that you can work with who really teach you how to

work with who really teach you how to think they're usually those professors

think they're usually those professors are gen generally quite rare and you're

are gen generally quite rare and you're fortunate if you do establish a

fortunate if you do establish a relationship like that especially at a

relationship like that especially at a big university where the student to

big university where the student to faculty ratio is absurdly high like 200

faculty ratio is absurdly high like 200 to one I was in lecture theaters that

to one I was in lecture theaters that were 300 to one I didn't I didn't get a

were 300 to one I didn't I didn't get a relationship like that with any of my

relationship like that with any of my right right and that's that's that's

right right and that's that's that's really not good because you need you

really not good because you need you need an apprenticeship relationship to

need an apprenticeship relationship to become educated fundamentally um we

become educated fundamentally um we started this we're formulating Peterson

started this we're formulating Peterson Academy we're hoping that we can provide

Academy we're hoping that we can provide people with extremely high quality

people with extremely high quality lectures I'm fortunate as you are to be

lectures I'm fortunate as you are to be able to reach out to people who are

able to reach out to people who are charismatic and well educated and we

charismatic and well educated and we offer them a good Financial deal and we

offer them a good Financial deal and we treat them very well and they come down

treat them very well and they come down to Miami and they record a relatively

to Miami and they record a relatively short lecture series eight hours and

short lecture series eight hours and uh we're implementing state-of-the-art

uh we're implementing state-of-the-art testing procedures and we're going to be

testing procedures and we're going to be giving out a certificate that you will

giving out a certificate that you will have to earn to AC ire and so we're

have to earn to AC ire and so we're hoping that the quality of our graduates

hoping that the quality of our graduates will be such that the certificate will

will be such that the certificate will speak to for itself as a marker for

speak to for itself as a marker for conscientiousness and educated expertise

conscientiousness and educated expertise we'll see we're also building out the

we'll see we're also building out the social side of it because as you pointed

social side of it because as you pointed out a huge part of what happens to you

out a huge part of what happens to you when you go to university is social and

when you go to university is social and socialization you get to make a whole

socialization you get to make a whole new group of friends it's a big deal

new group of friends it's a big deal right it's a huge it's one of those

right it's a huge it's one of those times in your life where you

times in your life where you can parcel off who you were and you can

can parcel off who you were and you can become something new you remember every

become something new you remember every single summer at least for me maybe this

single summer at least for me maybe this is because I was chronically so

is because I was chronically so unpopular in school I would come back

unpopular in school I would come back every summer uh imagining that I would

every summer uh imagining that I would be able to reinvent myself I'm going to

be able to reinvent myself I'm going to be the cool kid this year I'm going to

be the cool kid this year I'm going to be the sporty kid this year or whatever

be the sporty kid this year or whatever whatever but the big one is a 18 because

whatever but the big one is a 18 because you're not even in the same town no one

you're not even in the same town no one even knows who you are no one even knows

even knows who you are no one even knows what to think about who you are right

what to think about who you are right and uh that for me was the big

and uh that for me was the big inflection point of me going from the

inflection point of me going from the child that I was to the sort of young

child that I was to the sort of young adult that I was going to end up right

adult that I was going to end up right right well if you're fortunate you have

right well if you're fortunate you have a number of times where that happens in

a number of times where that happens in your life where you can make a

your life where you can make a relatively clean break and you can

relatively clean break and you can Invent Yourself a new right this is just

Invent Yourself a new right this is just just to interject that

just to interject that like there's an idea called monk mode uh

like there's an idea called monk mode uh which has kind of become a bit of a meme

which has kind of become a bit of a meme online but I first read about this years

online but I first read about this years ago uh and it involves uh extended

ago uh and it involves uh extended period of um isolation to work on

period of um isolation to work on yourself uh to reflect on your flaws to

yourself uh to reflect on your flaws to kind of do the inner work to introspect

kind of do the inner work to introspect um it's

um it's usually tied in with meditation with

usually tied in with meditation with improving your diet with improving your

improving your diet with improving your F physical fitness your mental Fitness

F physical fitness your mental Fitness all of these different things and uh

all of these different things and uh that I've almost seen it as if doing

that I've almost seen it as if doing that and focusing on yourself for a

that and focusing on yourself for a short space of time that's very very you

short space of time that's very very you know it's maybe a couple of months

know it's maybe a couple of months really really focusing on you still

really really focusing on you still going about and doing your work and

going about and doing your work and doing the rest of the things but outside

doing the rest of the things but outside of that just really really trying to

of that just really really trying to make yourself as good as possible

make yourself as good as possible periodizing that for me was one of the

periodizing that for me was one of the most powerful inflections aside from the

most powerful inflections aside from the lifestyle change well that's what

lifestyle change well that's what confession is supposed to be

confession is supposed to be fundamentally I mean when you take stock

fundamentally I mean when you take stock of yourself you

of yourself you confess you confess to yourself and

you make your sins a reality you assess yourself for your

reality you assess yourself for your insufficiency and you Proclaim your

insufficiency and you Proclaim your insufficiencies and that well then you

insufficiencies and that well then you can start working on them it's like it's

can start working on them it's like it's painful here's all the things that I'm

painful here's all the things that I'm not here's all the things that I'm not

not here's all the things that I'm not that I would like to be right that's

that I would like to be right that's painful self-examination but the

painful self-examination but the advantag is you get all your problems on

advantag is you get all your problems on the table and the advantage to that is

the table and the advantage to that is that Problem by

that Problem by problem there's likely some hope like

problem there's likely some hope like for example you said you were unpopular

for example you said you were unpopular when you were a teenager but that

when you were a teenager but that doesn't mean that you had to carry that

doesn't mean that you had to carry that forward into University right there was

forward into University right there was a possibility that so how did you get

a possibility that so how did you get out of that what did you

out of that what did you do the main reason I think was that I

do the main reason I think was that I didn't really understand how to relate

didn't really understand how to relate to other kids so I found myself

to other kids so I found myself obsessing over the way that other kids

obsessing over the way that other kids would wear their shirts or tie their

would wear their shirts or tie their ties or the sort of shoes that they

ties or the sort of shoes that they would wear or the right so you were

would wear or the right so you were looking at external models

looking at external models or why that's why they had friends and I

or why that's why they had friends and I didn't right and I didn't realize that

didn't right and I didn't realize that it was just I

it was just I wasn't socially Adept I didn't

wasn't socially Adept I didn't understand how to relate to other kids

understand how to relate to other kids very well and I think I just got to the

very well and I think I just got to the stage especially when I went to

stage especially when I went to University that I'd spent enough time

University that I'd spent enough time for me to have learned at least some

for me to have learned at least some rough HED social skills and now finally

rough HED social skills and now finally was able to sort of cast off some of the

was able to sort of cast off some of the uh presuppositions that uh had maybe

uh presuppositions that uh had maybe been following me uh because what were

been following me uh because what were the opening points for you like do you

the opening points for you like do you remember the first friendship you made

remember the first friendship you made in University oh yeah the guys that I

in University oh yeah the guys that I lived with so okay so these were these

lived with so okay so these were these were roommates yeah yeah yeah okay so

were roommates yeah yeah yeah okay so yeah that's a good op see that's a thing

yeah that's a good op see that's a thing that's hard to duplicate online right

that's hard to duplicate online right because it's a having a group of

because it's a having a group of Roommates is a

Roommates is a formative experience it was crazy for me

formative experience it was crazy for me I didn't know because again only child

I didn't know because again only child two parents living in a small house I

two parents living in a small house I didn't know that he was supposed to

didn't know that he was supposed to knock on someone's bedroom door before

knock on someone's bedroom door before you were to go in I'd never done that

you were to go in I'd never done that I'd spent my did 18 years I'd never had

I'd spent my did 18 years I'd never had to knock on anybody's bedroom door CU

to knock on anybody's bedroom door CU like Mom and Dad are down like who else

like Mom and Dad are down like who else is there I'm going to knock on the dogs

is there I'm going to knock on the dogs like the kitchen door to see if the dogs

like the kitchen door to see if the dogs are mind me going into the kitchen uh

are mind me going into the kitchen uh and so many of those things looking back

and so many of those things looking back on it now are just so ridiculous not

on it now are just so ridiculous not knowing that that was something that he

knowing that that was something that he was supposed to do yeah well not knowing

was supposed to do yeah well not knowing those Elementary skills though that can

those Elementary skills though that can be a huge impediment you know I had

be a huge impediment you know I had people in my clinical practice we spent

people in my clinical practice we spent hours practicing how to introduce them

hours practicing how to introduce them and to shake hands because you want to

and to shake hands because you want to be expert at that because if you're not

be expert at that because if you're not good at that at all like if you're

good at that at all like if you're really bad at it you're

really bad at it you're screwed you can't even tell someone your

screwed you can't even tell someone your name and so how are you going to make a

name and so how are you going to make a friend then you you you announce

friend then you you you announce yourself as incompetent with your first

yourself as incompetent with your first move and then if you do if that happens

move and then if you do if that happens to you 10 times you're so terrified dis

to you 10 times you're so terrified dis incentiv oh God terribly terribly and so

incentiv oh God terribly terribly and so you should become expert at that that's

you should become expert at that that's something you can do with your kids is

something you can do with your kids is so they can become expert at introducing

so they can become expert at introducing themselves you know shake hands do it

themselves you know shake hands do it with a bit of a firm grip look at the

with a bit of a firm grip look at the other person try smiling you know match

other person try smiling you know match your Tempo to the other

your Tempo to the other person another Dynamic that I've been

person another Dynamic that I've been thinking about recently I was at a

thinking about recently I was at a retreat in La a few months ago and one

retreat in La a few months ago and one of the guys that was there had said he'd

of the guys that was there had said he'd stopped talking and writing on the

stopped talking and writing on the internet because he noticed that the

internet because he noticed that the story he was telling in public he began

story he was telling in public he began feeling the necessity to live up to in

feeling the necessity to live up to in private and I think that whether you're

private and I think that whether you're a a writer or just someone that's got

a a writer or just someone that's got 500 followers on your Instagram and a

500 followers on your Instagram and a Facebook from back in the day or

Facebook from back in the day or whatever there is a there is an online

whatever there is a there is an online Persona that people put forward that

Persona that people put forward that they then almost feel is more real than

they then almost feel is more real than what they are and then they try and

what they are and then they try and reverse engineer themselves to fit this

reverse engineer themselves to fit this new is this the problem with writing

new is this the problem with writing essays that contain what your professor

essays that contain what your professor wants to hear so you can't do that

wants to hear so you can't do that without altering your soul you can't do

without altering your soul you can't do that you you cannot construct for

that you you cannot construct for yourself a false Persona designed to

yourself a false Persona designed to extract resources from the world without

extract resources from the world without that becoming part of you like there's

that becoming part of you like there's no one is that sophisticated no one can

no one is that sophisticated no one can have two selves like that it's part of

have two selves like that it's part of the reason why you have to be very

the reason why you have to be very careful about what you say and do is

careful about what you say and do is that you're

when you when you practice falsehood you become false it's not like those are

become false it's not like those are beliefs that are just in your head you

beliefs that are just in your head you rewire yourself so you start to

rewire yourself so you start to literally see the world through the

literally see the world through the frame of your falsehoods that's a very

frame of your falsehoods that's a very bad plan I've heard you say if you say

bad plan I've heard you say if you say things long enough you're going to

things long enough you're going to believe them you become them it's even

believe them you become them it's even worse than believing them it's deeper

worse than believing them it's deeper than that they they're built into you as

than that they they're built into you as unquestioned implicit axioms and as we

unquestioned implicit axioms and as we said earlier on this can go in either

said earlier on this can go in either direction right you can fake it until

direction right you can fake it until you make it one small step at a time

you make it one small step at a time moving toward a vision which you know is

moving toward a vision which you know is positive and you continually reassess to

positive and you continually reassess to ensure that you're not getting hijacked

ensure that you're not getting hijacked and going in the wrong direction yes or

and going in the wrong direction yes or or you generate a so look in the in the

or you generate a so look in the in the Pinocchio movie which I've analyzed to

Pinocchio movie which I've analyzed to death in the Disney Pinocchio you're Mr

death in the Disney Pinocchio you're Mr Pinocchio yeah world's leading Pinocchio

Pinocchio yeah world's leading Pinocchio so Pinocchio exactly exactly part

so Pinocchio exactly exactly part Pinocchio is trying to get rid of the

Pinocchio is trying to get rid of the strings that that that pull on him Every

strings that that that pull on him Every Which Way that aren't under his control

Which Way that aren't under his control and to become something genuine okay so

and to become something genuine okay so he has three basic

he has three basic tempations one

tempations one is to

is to lie right so that's the

lie right so that's the nose the another is to be an actor and

nose the another is to be an actor and when I first came across that in the

when I first came across that in the movie I thought what the hell's going on

movie I thought what the hell's going on here one of Pinocchio's Temptations is

here one of Pinocchio's Temptations is to be an actor now why would the

to be an actor now why would the Hollywood people do that why would they

Hollywood people do that why would they denigrate the actor and then I thought

denigrate the actor and then I thought oh it's not an actor it's a false

oh it's not an actor it's a false Persona to be the actor instead of the

Persona to be the actor instead of the real thing to be the appearance instead

real thing to be the appearance instead of the reality to take the credit

of the reality to take the credit instead of doing the work right to be

instead of doing the work right to be false next temptation is to be neurotic

false next temptation is to be neurotic it's so interesting especially in in in

it's so interesting especially in in in the world that we have now how

the world that we have now how perspicacious these animators were

perspicacious these animators were Pinocchio is literally enticed onto the

Pinocchio is literally enticed onto the island of pleasure by a false Doctor Who

island of pleasure by a false Doctor Who diagnoses him with an illness he doesn't

diagnoses him with an illness he doesn't have and the the story is look how sick

have and the the story is look how sick you are you're working too hard you need

you are you're working too hard you need to go to Pleasure Island well Pleasure

to go to Pleasure Island well Pleasure Island is run by

Island is run by slavers right so it's

slavers right so it's perfect

perfect well be careful what you practice be

well be careful what you practice be careful what you practice right you can

careful what you practice right you can be the actor of your own ideal and

be the actor of your own ideal and that's a way of stepping forward but

that's a way of stepping forward but when you make false claims to who you

when you make false claims to who you are

are to gain status in consequence you are

to gain status in consequence you are you are perverting your soul what's the

you are perverting your soul what's the soul the soul is something like the

soul the soul is something like the structure through which the world re

structure through which the world re reveals itself to you it's something

reveals itself to you it's something like that so you don't see much of the

like that so you don't see much of the world right you see it through narrow

world right you see it through narrow apertures you see what you allow in

apertures you see what you allow in that's another way of thinking about it

that's another way of thinking about it you better make sure it's the bright

you better make sure it's the bright part of the world re revealing itself to

part of the world re revealing itself to you and that isn't going to be the case

you and that isn't going to be the case if you

if you lie one of the problems I think that a

lie one of the problems I think that a lot of the people listening to this

lot of the people listening to this podcast and certainly a lot of my

podcast and certainly a lot of my friends who are smart and cerebral

friends who are smart and cerebral encounter they think themselves into

encounter they think themselves into problems and they struggle to use their

problems and they struggle to use their intuition because they are able to come

intuition because they are able to come up with a reason about why they should

up with a reason about why they should or should not at any moment and you know

or should not at any moment and you know talking about the soul or the inner

talking about the soul or the inner voice or the conscience or you know you

voice or the conscience or you know you might refer to it as God that's coming

might refer to it as God that's coming through the best version of

through the best version of yourself people that ruminate and

yourself people that ruminate and introspect are very capable of talking

introspect are very capable of talking themselves into or out of something that

themselves into or out of something that feels like they worship the

feels like they worship the intellect how would you advise somebody

intellect how would you advise somebody who enjoys thinking about things deeply

who enjoys thinking about things deeply to cast that off and be able to hear

to cast that off and be able to hear themselves a little bit more clearly

themselves a little bit more clearly there's a difference between attention

there's a difference between attention and

intellect there there's something to be said for paying attention it's not the

said for paying attention it's not the same thing like the intellect let's say

same thing like the intellect let's say the intellect produces thoughts the

the intellect produces thoughts the attention gathers

attention gathers information right so if

I'm well if I'm conducting a podcast let's say I'm paying attention to what I

let's say I'm paying attention to what I don't understand I'm not thinking it's

don't understand I'm not thinking it's not the same thing I mean sometimes I

not the same thing I mean sometimes I think because the person will say

think because the person will say something and it'll set off a train of

something and it'll set off a train of thoughts but often what I'm just doing

thoughts but often what I'm just doing is like well do I understand what you

is like well do I understand what you just said that's a matter of attention I

just said that's a matter of attention I have to note my ignorance I'm attending

have to note my ignorance I'm attending to my ignorance well this is what

to my ignorance well this is what Rogan's great at this you're great at

Rogan's great at this you're great at this as well if you attend to your

this as well if you attend to your ignorance then you know what to do you

ignorance then you know what to do you just ask the question it's like well I

just ask the question it's like well I don't understand this that's a form of

don't understand this that's a form of humility to attend to your ignorance

humility to attend to your ignorance that's a good thing for those who

that's a good thing for those who worship the luciferian intellect to do

worship the luciferian intellect to do is to attend to their own ignorance it's

is to attend to their own ignorance it's not about what you know it's about what

not about what you know it's about what you don't know you already know what you

you don't know you already know what you know so why not investigate what you

know so why not investigate what you don't know well how do you do that you

don't know well how do you do that you attend to your

attend to your ignorance what's the definition of

ignorance what's the definition of humility humility is attending to your

humility humility is attending to your ignorance and you can do that wherever

ignorance and you can do that wherever you are is that not still uh an

you are is that not still uh an intellectual exercise here are the holes

intellectual exercise here are the holes in what I know therefore I'm just going

in what I know therefore I'm just going to continue ask to ask the questions

to continue ask to ask the questions until I fill

until I fill them well it's not something completely

them well it's not something completely divorced from

it's the difference between questioning and

and answering like I would say this is let's

answering like I would say this is let's say definitional the luciferian

say definitional the luciferian intellect has an answer what's when you

intellect has an answer what's when you say luciferian intellect what's that the

say luciferian intellect what's that the luciferian intellect is the intellect

luciferian intellect is the intellect that wants to place itself in the

that wants to place itself in the highest position and there's lots of

highest position and there's lots of people smart people tend to be

people smart people tend to be luciferian because they think that their

luciferian because they think that their fundamental value is their intelligence

fundamental value is their intelligence and they think that intelligence is the

and they think that intelligence is the fundamental value and then they're often

fundamental value and then they're often very annoyed if they're very bright and

very annoyed if they're very bright and the world doesn't lay itself out at

the world doesn't lay itself out at their feet because they think well I'm

their feet because they think well I'm so smart everything should just be

so smart everything should just be coming my way because they've prided

coming my way because they've prided themsel on that it's like and

themsel on that it's like and intellectual Pride well that might be

intellectual Pride well that might be the cardinal sin the luciferian

the cardinal sin the luciferian intellect is the intellect that wants to

intellect is the intellect that wants to put itself in the highest position it's

put itself in the highest position it's challenges God that's what Satan is

challenges God that's what Satan is that's what Lucifer is literally in the

that's what Lucifer is literally in the miltonian story is Lucifer is the spirit

miltonian story is Lucifer is the spirit who attempts to usurp God that's what

who attempts to usurp God that's what the Communists did that's what the

the Communists did that's what the fascists did that's what we do when we

fascists did that's what we do when we build towers of Babel and we can easily

build towers of Babel and we can easily Elevate the intellect to the highest

Elevate the intellect to the highest possible place especially smart people

possible place especially smart people they do that all the time it's better to

they do that all the time it's better to attend to what you don't know this is

attend to what you don't know this is why Rogan's a very good example of this

why Rogan's a very good example of this because Rogan is not an

because Rogan is not an intellectual he's a Seeker those aren't

intellectual he's a Seeker those aren't the same thing Rogan is always

the same thing Rogan is always like a blood hound he's on the path of

like a blood hound he's on the path of what he doesn't know and the consequence

what he doesn't know and the consequence of that is he knows a lot you know 2,000

of that is he knows a lot you know 2,000 podcast 2500 podcasts he's done like

podcast 2500 podcasts he's done like 2500 highlevel graduate seminars

2500 highlevel graduate seminars something like that it's crazy and so

something like that it's crazy and so his questions get better and better as

his questions get better and better as he fills in the gaps is it

intellectual no no it's not it's it's it's

there's a difference between an intellectual Pursuit and a spiritual

intellectual Pursuit and a spiritual Pursuit and the remediation of your own

Pursuit and the remediation of your own ignorance is a spiritual Pursuit it's

ignorance is a spiritual Pursuit it's predicated on humility how am I stupid

predicated on humility how am I stupid how can I fix that you know one of the

how can I fix that you know one of the things I really taught my kids tried to

things I really taught my kids tried to teach them was ask stupid

teach them was ask stupid questions right and that means you have

questions right and that means you have to admit to your own insufficiency

to admit to your own insufficiency that's what humility is and then you

that's what humility is and then you have to publicly announce it here's how

have to publicly announce it here's how I'm stupid can you fix me and you know

I'm stupid can you fix me and you know sometimes that is embarrassing although

sometimes that is embarrassing although much less frequently than people think

much less frequently than people think usually if you're in a crowd and you

usually if you're in a crowd and you have a stupid question and you've been

have a stupid question and you've been paying

paying attention 80% of the crowd has the same

attention 80% of the crowd has the same question and they're relieved that you

question and they're relieved that you know you an you asked it in fact they'll

know you an you asked it in fact they'll think you're brave it's so interesting e

think you're brave it's so interesting e because you're afraid when you ask a

because you're afraid when you ask a question if you're in a university

question if you're in a university seminar you're afraid that what you're

seminar you're afraid that what you're going to do is expose your stupidity and

going to do is expose your stupidity and be what would you say shamed and what

be what would you say shamed and what happens is exactly the opposite is

happens is exactly the opposite is everybody who's too cowardly to ask that

everybody who's too cowardly to ask that question now thinks that you're

question now thinks that you're courageous it's exactly the opposite of

courageous it's exactly the opposite of what you think yeah that happens all the

what you think yeah that happens all the time always in my graduate Seminars the

time always in my graduate Seminars the kids that

kids that asked the most ignorant questions

asked the most ignorant questions assuming they were paying attention

assuming they were paying attention because you can ask a stupid question

because you can ask a stupid question you know stupid question is you're I

you know stupid question is you're I don't know you're fiddling with your

don't know you're fiddling with your phone and you and the class has just

phone and you and the class has just covered something and you didn't notice

covered something and you didn't notice and you ask well you know clue in that

and you ask well you know clue in that that's not a real question that's just

that's not a real question that's just you're just wasting people's time but if

you're just wasting people's time but if you're genuinely

you're genuinely ignorant I never had a student who asked

ignorant I never had a student who asked a genuine question that I thought was a

a genuine question that I thought was a stupid question never and I'd never

stupid question never and I'd never treat a student that way it's like no no

treat a student that way it's like no no if

if you're if you it's so cool too because

you're if you it's so cool too because sometimes the stupidest

sometimes the stupidest questions cut to the heart of the chase

questions cut to the heart of the chase you know it's the kids who would ask a

you know it's the kids who would ask a really basic question

that also forced me to really understand what I was

teaching and that's a reflection of their humility it's that humility in the

their humility it's that humility in the pursuit

pursuit of humility in the pursuit of the ideal

of humility in the pursuit of the ideal that's not an intellectual exercise not

that's not an intellectual exercise not not not in the strict sense it's

not not in the strict sense it's definitely what generates knowledge

definitely what generates knowledge though that seems to be a good stepping

though that seems to be a good stepping block toward earned wisdom as well

block toward earned wisdom as well that's earned wisdom y y earned wisdom

that's earned wisdom y y earned wisdom through humility

through humility right what have you got coming up next

right what have you got coming up next what can people expect from you over the

what can people expect from you over the next few months well what I'm working on

next few months well what I'm working on right now is I'm going to finish this

right now is I'm going to finish this book hopefully by the end of December

book hopefully by the end of December it'll be published in November but I'm

it'll be published in November but I'm going to go on tour weirdly enough about

going to go on tour weirdly enough about the book probably starting in January

the book probably starting in January I'm going to do an American tour and

I'm going to do an American tour and then I think I'm going to go to Africa

then I think I'm going to go to Africa and to South America and to Southeast

and to South America and to Southeast Asia that's the plan and um I'm very

Asia that's the plan and um I'm very excited about this new book um I'm

excited about this new book um I'm hoping oping it'll be the best book that

hoping oping it'll be the best book that I've ever

I've ever written it's it's going to be more

written it's it's going to be more difficult book than the last two were

difficult book than the last two were but not as difficult as maps of meaning

but not as difficult as maps of meaning which my first book yeah it's it's it's

which my first book yeah it's it's it's more it's heavy it's it's deeper have

more it's heavy it's it's deeper have you been fighting with trying to make it

you been fighting with trying to make it accessible no not really right i' I've

accessible no not really right i' I've been I've been I've been just trying to

been I've been I've been just trying to lay the argument out as clearly as I can

lay the argument out as clearly as I can like and I think that'll do the trick

like and I think that'll do the trick and I I I have to go over it again and

and I I I have to go over it again and edit it and make sure that

edit it and make sure that it's no more obscure than is absolutely

it's no more obscure than is absolutely necessary no I want to lay it out so

necessary no I want to lay it out so that it's comprehensible and I've had a

that it's comprehensible and I've had a lot of success with the biblical

lot of success with the biblical Ventures that I've already embarked on I

Ventures that I've already embarked on I did a series on Genesis in 2017 which

did a series on Genesis in 2017 which turned out to be quite influential and

turned out to be quite influential and then I just did a seminar on Exodus with

then I just did a seminar on Exodus with a group of thinkers and I know there's a

a group of thinkers and I know there's a hunger for

analysis of deep stories and I also have good people around me

and I also have good people around me that can help me grind my way through

that can help me grind my way through the stories and understand them and so

the stories and understand them and so I'm very much looking I've been having

I'm very much looking I've been having quite a good time writing this book

quite a good time writing this book actually it's very difficult to write

actually it's very difficult to write but it's been extremely exciting and

but it's been extremely exciting and interesting

interesting and I'm hoping you asked me earlier what

and I'm hoping you asked me earlier what would I consider success with this

would I consider success with this book I don't think that you'll be able

book I don't think that you'll be able to read this book and understand it and

to read this book and understand it and be

be atheistic I think I can demolish the

atheistic I think I can demolish the atheistic argument

atheistic argument permanently and it's partly it's a weird

permanently and it's partly it's a weird thing because it's not like all of a

thing because it's not like all of a sudden people are going to throw

sudden people are going to throw themselves at the feet of God In Worship

themselves at the feet of God In Worship it's like it requires a reconsideration

it's like it requires a reconsideration of what we mean by belief and I walk

of what we mean by belief and I walk through some of it it's like do you

through some of it it's like do you believe in the good well there the

believe in the good well there the difference between believing in good and

difference between believing in good and beleving in God is it's it's a very

beleving in God is it's it's a very narrow

narrow difference now there are important

difference now there are important differences but it's still a narrow

differences but it's still a narrow difference and the thing is if you don't

difference and the thing is if you don't believe in the in good you're aimless

believe in the in good you're aimless and if you're aimless you're hopeless

and if you're aimless you're hopeless and if you're aimless and hopeless

and if you're aimless and hopeless you're anxious and fractionated and

you're anxious and fractionated and people can't unite in their beliefs like

people can't unite in their beliefs like the the alternative is not good

the the alternative is not good reversing the enlightenment is no small

reversing the enlightenment is no small task well hopefully we can save the best

task well hopefully we can save the best of the Enlightenment as well it's like

of the Enlightenment as well it's like uh the uh cheston's fence of cheston's

uh the uh cheston's fence of cheston's fence like how many how many different

fence like how many how many different fences are in the field so to speak and

fences are in the field so to speak and if we thrown this one out and we're

if we thrown this one out and we're trying to plug it back in but which bit

trying to plug it back in but which bit of going back one of the things that's

of going back one of the things that's very interesting and I think I think

very interesting and I think I think people like Dawkins have started to

people like Dawkins have started to realize this and I know that people like

realize this and I know that people like Douglas Murray and Ian hery Ali and Neil

Douglas Murray and Ian hery Ali and Neil Ferguson have recognize this is

Ferguson have recognize this is that with the death of God many other

that with the death of God many other things die things you don't expect and

things die things you don't expect and one of the things that dies when God

one of the things that dies when God dies is science and no one expected that

dies is science and no one expected that how

how so because science as a practice is a

so because science as a practice is a religious practice it it's predicated on

religious practice it it's predicated on religious axioms is it well you have to

religious axioms is it well you have to believe that there's such a thing as

believe that there's such a thing as truth you have to believe that the truth

truth you have to believe that the truth is understandable you have to believe

is understandable you have to believe that understanding the truth is good you

that understanding the truth is good you have to believe that there is such a

have to believe that there is such a thing as good right so imagine to be a

thing as good right so imagine to be a scientist you have to imagine that first

scientist you have to imagine that first of all that the world is comprehensible

of all that the world is comprehensible to the human intellect but more that if

to the human intellect but more that if you investigate the mysteries of the

you investigate the mysteries of the material world that that will be

material world that that will be beneficial right those aren't scientific

beneficial right those aren't scientific claims those are metaphysical

claims those are metaphysical claims and that metaphysical claim is

claims and that metaphysical claim is nested in a

nested in a story you know and the the enlightenment

story you know and the the enlightenment types they've portrayed the Scientific

types they've portrayed the Scientific Revolution as something contrary to the

Revolution as something contrary to the religious substr and that's not accurate

religious substr and that's not accurate that's a French Revolution that's a

that's a French Revolution that's a luciferian intellect history it's not

luciferian intellect history it's not true the universities grew out of the

true the universities grew out of the monasteries that's where the

monasteries that's where the universities came from and science as a

universities came from and science as a widespread Enterprise got its start in

widespread Enterprise got its start in the universities and they grew out of

the universities and they grew out of the monasteries that's not

the monasteries that's not questionable like if you go to Harvard

questionable like if you go to Harvard or if you go to Oxford and Cambridge

or if you go to Oxford and Cambridge it's just starkly evident the layout of

it's just starkly evident the layout of the UN of the college ol is a monastic

the UN of the college ol is a monastic layout so the idea

layout so the idea that there's some fundamental

that there's some fundamental contradiction between religious belief

contradiction between religious belief and the scientific

and the scientific Enterprise it's it's there's nothing

Enterprise it's it's there's nothing about that that's true and part of the

about that that's true and part of the reason that we're Lo part of the reason

reason that we're Lo part of the reason that we're losing the scientific

that we're losing the scientific Enterprise right now is because we've

Enterprise right now is because we've unmowed it from its metaphysical

unmowed it from its metaphysical substrate and it can't survive if you're

substrate and it can't survive if you're going to be a scientist you have to put

going to be a scientist you have to put the truth Above All Else scientists are

the truth Above All Else scientists are very rare

very rare you have to believe in the truth to be a

you have to believe in the truth to be a scientist I think Dawkins believes in

scientist I think Dawkins believes in the truth by the way so he's an atheist

the truth by the way so he's an atheist but a

but a very he's much less of an atheist than

very he's much less of an atheist than he thinks that's my

he thinks that's my impression lying scientists are

impression lying scientists are atheistic or just malevolent Dawkins is

atheistic or just malevolent Dawkins is a truthful scientist and in so far as

a truthful scientist and in so far as he's pursuing the truth and in so far as

he's pursuing the truth and in so far as he believes that pursuing the truth will

he believes that pursuing the truth will set you free then he's walking down a

set you free then he's walking down a path that's Christian to its core now I

path that's Christian to its core now I know he doesn't like that idea but he

know he doesn't like that idea but he also doesn't like the fact that the

also doesn't like the fact that the scientific Enterprise seems to be

scientific Enterprise seems to be collapsing in terms of its what would

collapsing in terms of its what would you call reliability and validity

you call reliability and validity everywhere

everywhere so I appreciate you mate I appreciate

so I appreciate you mate I appreciate the time that we get to spend it always

the time that we get to spend it always seems to be a very interesting

seems to be a very interesting inflection uh again this yeah the

inflection uh again this yeah the inflection this time is you're out on

inflection this time is you're out on tour eh I am what's your advice for me

tour eh I am what's your advice for me how am I going to survive life on the

how am I going to survive life on the road make sure that when you step on the

road make sure that when you step on the stage that you understand how unlikely

stage that you understand how unlikely it is that you have the privilege to do

it is that you have the privilege to do this and make sure you remember that all

this and make sure you remember that all those people who came to see you they're

those people who came to see you they're hoping for something from you they put

hoping for something from you they put in some time and energy to come and see

in some time and energy to come and see you it matters what you do you go out on

you it matters what you do you go out on that stage with gratitude right that'll

that stage with gratitude right that'll help a lot you got to remember that it

help a lot you got to remember that it keeps you on the ground too you should

keeps you on the ground too you should be grateful that they're not throwing

be grateful that they're not throwing rocks at you right how ridiculous ous is

rocks at you right how ridiculous ous is it that you get to do this how unlikely

it that you get to do this how unlikely is it right exactly so you keep that

is it right exactly so you keep that first and foremost in your mind you

first and foremost in your mind you remember that you should be stunningly

remember that you should be stunningly grateful for the miracle that you have

grateful for the miracle that you have the opportunity to do this because it's

the opportunity to do this because it's ridiculously

ridiculously improbable yeah yeah trying to do that

improbable yeah yeah trying to do that without getting overwhelmed is becoming

without getting overwhelmed is becoming an increasingly difficult task yeah well

an increasingly difficult task yeah well part of the way you handle that is that

part of the way you handle that is that you parse off the jobs that other people

you parse off the jobs that other people can do you know when you're out on tour

can do you know when you're out on tour the social element of that can be

the social element of that can be overwhelming so you have to protect

overwhelming so you have to protect yourself from that to some degree but

yourself from that to some degree but the other thing you do is anything

the other thing you do is anything anyone else can do get someone to do es

anyone else can do get someone to do es and get someone competent and reliable

and get someone competent and reliable so that all you're focusing on get to

so that all you're focusing on get to the next show on time in the right frame

the next show on time in the right frame of mind that's your

of mind that's your job other people have their jobs make

job other people have their jobs make sure you're surrounded by people who do

sure you're surrounded by people who do their jobs like our tour so far they

their jobs like our tour so far they become increasingly well-run I don't

become increasingly well-run I don't worry about travel hotels meals

worry about travel hotels meals Transportation none of that I worry

Transportation none of that I worry about getting to the venue 1 hour ahead

about getting to the venue 1 hour ahead of

of time getting my head in the right place

time getting my head in the right place which has to do with this attitude of

which has to do with this attitude of gratefulness that I described and then

gratefulness that I described and then trying to address a serious problem with

trying to address a serious problem with all the people who are participating in

all the people who are participating in the audience and

the audience and then if it's too much

then if it's too much then distribute the responsibility some

then distribute the responsibility some more how do you wind down after a show I

more how do you wind down after a show I watched the Trailer Park

Boys of course you do yeah yeah well after being that good you have to not be

after being that good you have to not be so good for a while and the Trailer Park

so good for a while and the Trailer Park Boys is a very good way of doing that

Boys is a very good way of doing that counteract a little bit Yeah I uh I

counteract a little bit Yeah I uh I texted Rogan about this yesterday and I

texted Rogan about this yesterday and I thought that he would have you know God

thought that he would have you know God knows how many shows that guy's done I

knows how many shows that guy's done I thought he would have some wisdom for me

thought he would have some wisdom for me I said every time that I do a show I um

I said every time that I do a show I um I'm so excited after I finished that I

I'm so excited after I finished that I find it difficult to kind of wind down

find it difficult to kind of wind down and I've got four shows back toback then

and I've got four shows back toback then we fly to Dubai then we've got all these

we fly to Dubai then we've got all these shows around the US and Canada and uh

shows around the US and Canada and uh I'm nervous that I'm not going to be

I'm nervous that I'm not going to be able to sleep and then if I don't sleep

able to sleep and then if I don't sleep then I'm not going to be able to perform

then I'm not going to be able to perform as well tomorrow and then it'll spiral

as well tomorrow and then it'll spiral uh and I thought that he would just have

uh and I thought that he would just have some wisdom and he said that's a tough

some wisdom and he said that's a tough one man to be honest I've never had any

one man to be honest I've never had any problem sleeping I well [ __ ] that I

problem sleeping I well [ __ ] that I guess you know uh but no I'm excited I'm

guess you know uh but no I'm excited I'm excited and I'll check back in with you

excited and I'll check back in with you once uh once everything's done we're

once uh once everything's done we're going to record one of them properly

going to record one of them properly fully properly record it uh like a

fully properly record it uh like a special um so that'll be maybe we'll put

special um so that'll be maybe we'll put it up maybe it'll just stay for

it up maybe it'll just stay for posterity I don't know but uh we're GNA

posterity I don't know but uh we're GNA have it so yeah I'm excited yeah well

have it so yeah I'm excited yeah well good luck thank you man good luck should

good luck thank you man good luck should be a blast yeah yeah yeah I'm definitely

be a blast yeah yeah yeah I'm definitely going to learn a lot and as we've said

going to learn a lot and as we've said today pushing through discomfort and

today pushing through discomfort and doing different things uh and following

doing different things uh and following something close to Instinct a lot of the

something close to Instinct a lot of the things that I'm saying are uh like

things that I'm saying are uh like vulnerable in some regards I guess you

vulnerable in some regards I guess you know they things that are meaningful to

know they things that are meaningful to me uh and yeah I hope that people take

me uh and yeah I hope that people take take a lot away from it and I hope they

take a lot away from it and I hope they have done from today too so one of the

have done from today too so one of the things I do when I go on stage is like I

things I do when I go on stage is like I spend the first 10 or 15 seconds looking

spend the first 10 or 15 seconds looking at the audience like I don't mean I

at the audience like I don't mean I would I've seen you do this a lot I

would I've seen you do this a lot I would I would technically refer to it as

would I would technically refer to it as stalking um but it's not far from a

stalking um but it's not far from a stalk it's it's good I I look everywhere

stalk it's it's good I I look everywhere and this is a exposure technique you

and this is a exposure technique you don't want to be afraid of the audience

don't want to be afraid of the audience and so at all and you don't want to be

and so at all and you don't want to be talking to the audience

talking to the audience so I look at people and I see you know I

so I look at people and I see you know I I look everywhere and as you know you

I look everywhere and as you know you can't see in the back rows if it's a big

can't see in the back rows if it's a big place but fundamentally I look

place but fundamentally I look everywhere I can and I look at

everywhere I can and I look at individuals and I'm marking them out as

individuals and I'm marking them out as people and then I'm remembering you know

people and then I'm remembering you know I'm talking to all these individual

I'm talking to all these individual people who've come here and then that's

people who've come here and then that's easy because you can talk to individuals

easy because you can talk to individuals and they're your guests say that's

and they're your guests say that's another that's another thing for your

another that's another thing for your staff to know too it's like everyone who

staff to know too it's like everyone who comes to one of your events has to be

comes to one of your events has to be treated in the most positive possible

treated in the most positive possible way cuz they're looking to you for

way cuz they're looking to you for something you know and it's very hard on

something you know and it's very hard on them if they're treated inhospitably and

them if they're treated inhospitably and so you know one of the things we've

so you know one of the things we've tried to do I travel with a fair number

tried to do I travel with a fair number of people now but everyone knows that

of people now but everyone knows that like rule number one is treat the

like rule number one is treat the audience members even the ones that are

audience members even the ones that are have some trouble and maybe even are

have some trouble and maybe even are Troublesome it's like treat them like

Troublesome it's like treat them like their guests because they're guests and

their guests because they're guests and you're bloody lucky that they're here so

you're bloody lucky that they're here so don't get all high and mighty about it

don't get all high and mighty about it CU they put in their time and effort to

CU they put in their time and effort to come here and they're looking for

come here and they're looking for something so that's part of that

something so that's part of that gratitude that that and then it's fun

gratitude that that and then it's fun right that keeps it fun it's like you're

right that keeps it fun it's like you're so privileged to be there talking to

so privileged to be there talking to them that's you got to have that in mind

them that's you got to have that in mind what a privilege it is that what is

what a privilege it is that what is these people they're coming to listen to

these people they're coming to listen to what you're doing that's a good deal man

what you're doing that's a good deal man that's as good as it gets so you want to

that's as good as it gets so you want to have that firmly in the back of your

have that firmly in the back of your mind and the front too yeah I'll try my

mind and the front too yeah I'll try my best Jordan Peterson ladies and

best Jordan Peterson ladies and gentlemen Jordan thank you so much for

gentlemen Jordan thank you so much for today I'm looking forward to the next

today I'm looking forward to the next time we get to catch up good to talk to

time we get to catch up good to talk to you Chris thank you very much for tuning

you Chris thank you very much for tuning in if you enjoyed that episode with

in if you enjoyed that episode with Jordan you will love my conversation

Jordan you will love my conversation with Douglas Murray which is available

with Douglas Murray which is available right here go on tap it

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