0:15 Hi, thank you. Uh good afternoon
0:17 distinguished guests and welcome to this
0:20 plenary session 5. Uh I'm Wayhan and
0:22 I'll be your moderator for this session.
0:24 Uh it's my pleasure to be joined by
0:27 three distinguished speakers. Uh first
0:30 up I would like to invite Dr. Wong Wqin.
0:32 Uh he's an independent electrical and
0:33 power engineering consultant with over
0:36 30 years of experience in Asia-Pacific
0:38 having held senior leadership roles in
0:41 Australian transmission marker operators
0:44 and even developers.
0:47 Uh next I would like to invite Mr. Jen
0:50 [music] Ming Chang. He is EDF's director
0:52 for new markets development in APEC
0:54 having led the market entry into
0:56 Australia and now doing the same for
1:02 And last but by no means least is Mr.
1:05 Jonathan Khan who is the co-founder and
1:08 managing director of ERS Energy uh
1:09 leading RE solutions provider in the
1:12 region and one of the early pioneers of
1:21 So uh today as the world pivots towards
1:23 sustainable green energy sources there's
1:25 been a market shift in energy
1:28 generation. We've moved from traditional
1:30 controlled stable predictable fossil
1:33 fuel generators to a complex combination
1:36 of more unpredictable uncontrollable
1:39 renewable energy technologies
1:40 technologies
1:43 most of which are extremely capex heavy
1:44 and have near zero marginal cost of generation.
1:46 generation.
1:49 So as Azia nations continue its RE
1:51 transition and push towards achieving
1:54 its RE targets, what are the key
1:56 enablers and considerations for nations
1:58 to ensure a sustainable and successful
2:02 transition and in particular how
2:03 important is the appropriate
2:06 infrastructure in enabling the this
2:08 transition and can the AEAN power grid
2:11 we've heard so much about this morning
2:12 be the key to fulfilling all three
2:16 aspects of the energy trillemma?
2:19 Please uh Dr. Wong.
2:22 >> Okay. Um firstly before I begin I'd like
2:26 to thank uh Gammuda for uh organizing
2:29 the session and for inviting myself to
2:31 share my perspectives. Um and also want
2:34 to thank the organizers of the
2:36 conference as well as distinguished
2:39 guests who have um basically stayed back
2:42 uh until this late session um for to
2:44 hear what we have to say. Now what I
2:49 want to do is to just frame um the scope
2:51 of this session uh by sharing my
2:54 perspectives. Now myself I've worked
2:57 about now coming to two decades of
2:59 integrating renewable energy in
3:03 Australia. uh and I've actually uh
3:06 participated in various roles which
3:09 includes power system planning, power
3:13 system operation, project development uh
3:16 as well as looking at issues both at the
3:18 transmission and distribution level and
3:22 also delivering the next generation of
3:24 enabling technologies to achieve
3:27 reliable and secure high renewable
3:30 integration. Now much of my work uh has
3:33 been undertaken in Australia and uh I
3:36 believe um some of you would um
3:39 recognize that Australia is often seen
3:42 as one of the leading case studies for
3:44 renewable integration at both
3:48 transmission utility scale as well as in
3:51 the distributed or now we call it
3:53 consumer energy resources. uh some of
3:55 the benchmarks you may be aware now
3:58 Australia as a nation currently is about
4:02 40% renewable by annual energy but there
4:05 are some jurisdictions in uh Australia
4:07 which achieves something like 80%
4:10 renewable penetration by annual energy
4:13 which suggests that there are now
4:17 frequent market intervals where
4:20 renewable penetration hits 100%. Some of
4:24 you may be aware uh of those um reports
4:27 put out by the market operator. And so
4:29 what I have been working on the past
4:33 decade is to look at what does the power
4:37 system need in terms of the next
4:39 generation of solutions at scale to
4:42 ensure we maintain supply reliability
4:46 and power system security while keeping
4:49 costs and economics viable. And I think
4:51 this is important because at the end of
4:54 the day, for example, as system
4:57 planners, we can specify requirements
5:00 for our grid. But however, if industry
5:03 and the private sector cannot deliver or
5:06 the supply chain cannot deliver on the
5:09 solutions you need at scale in volume in
5:12 a timely manner, then you cannot achieve
5:15 the required renewable penetration while
5:17 maintaining system reliability and
5:20 security. So I'd like to paint now uh
5:23 this uh focus on this session because
5:25 the previous session also talked about
5:27 renewable energy integration but
5:30 primarily from a utility perspective. So
5:31 hopefully we can complement that
5:34 excellent discussion in that session by
5:36 looking at what do we need from
5:38 technology integrators, technology
5:41 providers, the private sector developers
5:44 as well as broader supply chain considerations.
5:45 considerations.
5:49 So uh if you allow me just to therefore
5:51 uh define what are all the main buckets
5:53 on consideration. Now you have probably
5:56 heard this being covered but I'll
5:58 present it in a slightly different way
6:01 and particularly flavored by my uh
6:03 previous experiences working in the
6:04 Australian power system and energy
6:06 market. Now firstly technical
6:10 fundamentals. When we talk about future
6:13 and new renewable capacity often we are
6:16 specifically referring to solar and wind
6:20 resources which are power electronics
6:22 defined by software. Okay this is
6:25 different. Of course, there's also hydro
6:27 and nuclear, right? But those
6:29 technologies are primarily still based
6:32 on synchronous generation and so they
6:35 maintain the current power system
6:38 security philosophy. So therefore, you
6:40 don't need to change the way you plan
6:42 and operate your power system if you are
6:46 looking at hydro or even nuclear. But if
6:49 you're looking at wind and solar, these
6:51 are power electronics. The
6:53 characteristics are entirely defined by
6:56 software and this is a very different
6:59 technical characteristic compared to
7:01 synchronous machines. Synchronous
7:04 machines essentially deliver a broad
7:07 range of grid stabilization services
7:10 like frequency control, voltage control,
7:12 short circuit current or fault level
7:14 contribution as part of the package.
7:16 Right. All you need to do specify is the
7:20 megawatt capacity. Ensure you have the
7:23 gas or the coal or whatever fuel
7:25 to keep the plant running and you will
7:27 get grid stability automat sort of
7:30 inherently as part of the package. Not
7:32 so with wind and solar. Wind and solar
7:35 largely provide energy and the current
7:37 generation of wind and solar
7:41 inverterbased generation largely still
7:44 does not provide the same level of
7:47 ancillary services necessary to maintain
7:51 system security. Now frequency control
7:54 to some extent are being resolved. uh in
7:56 fact a previous presentation touched on
7:59 grid forming inverters or grid forming
8:03 batteries and um the first grid forming
8:05 battery was deployed uh in Australia in
8:09 2018. So that's 7 years ago now and in
8:12 fact now every new battery development
8:15 in Australia is grid forming and we are
8:18 quite close to now what would be seen as
8:21 a standard for grid forming battery
8:25 requirements in Australia. Uh so that is
8:27 uh uh the positive aspect but however
8:30 when it comes to other services for
8:33 example system strength uh in particular
8:36 shortcircuit current contribution now uh
8:39 inverter based resources largely cannot
8:41 provide that function economically.
8:43 Now it is possible for you to
8:46 overprovision inverter capacity but the
8:49 experience in most jurisdictions shows
8:51 that such a project or such a
8:53 configuration is not economic is not
8:57 viable to invest in a lot of inverter
8:59 capability that's only used for a few
9:02 hundred milliseconds per disturbance. So
9:04 I think the reality here we need to
9:07 accept is that it's not just about the
9:11 technical requirements of maintaining or
9:13 integrating renewables very much is
9:16 often the cost and also supply chain.
9:18 One comment I to make is uh is regarding
9:21 some of the alternate technologies. Now
9:24 in Australia right now we maintain grid
9:26 system strength and fault level
9:28 primarily now through deployment of
9:31 synchronous condensers. So some of you
9:34 may be aware for example in New South
9:36 Wales the transmission network service
9:39 provider trans grid has now made a
9:43 decision that synchronous condensers
9:46 rather than grid forming batteries are
9:48 the only dependable option for system
9:51 strength and so they have specified that
9:54 they will invest in at least 20
9:56 synchronous condensers going forward.
9:58 Now one of the issues we are now finding
10:01 is that the order book for synchronous
10:03 condensers is at least 5 years in
10:06 advance. So if you order a synchronous
10:08 condenser today, it will not be
10:11 delivered before 2030. So in the
10:13 meantime, what do you do then if you
10:16 have an emerging grid stability issue
10:18 over the next three years? That's a bit
10:21 of a predicament. And so this is some of
10:24 the considerations on the supply chain
10:26 in particular cost and timelines that
10:30 you need to take uh to consider. Now the
10:32 other aspect is a fundamental shift in
10:37 the economics of uh VR based grid. Now
10:39 the the good thing but also a challenge
10:42 with wind and solar essentially wind and
10:45 sunshine is free. So there's no fuel
10:48 cost. So in other words, there is a zero
10:51 shortrun marginal cost which is often
10:55 touted as an advantage. However, most of
10:59 of our electricity sport markets are the
11:02 pricing is indexed or referenced against
11:04 really the shortrun marginal cost of
11:07 dispatch. Right? So we have seen in
11:10 jurisdictions therefore with high VR
11:12 wind and solar that therefore your spot
11:15 price goes to zero and that reflects the
11:18 zero or near zero shortrun marginal cost
11:21 of wind and solar. Now that is a
11:24 significant disruption to the revenue
11:27 model and therefore the business case
11:30 for certainly legacy plant and this is
11:32 the factor that has triggered the
11:35 premature mothballing of fossil fuel
11:37 generation in Australia because they
11:40 just can't compete with zero marginal
11:43 cost generation shortrun marginal cost
11:45 generation and they are also relatively
11:47 inflexible right steam turbines for
11:50 example typically need four to six hours
11:52 turn up or turn down. And so that
11:55 inflexibility means that the only
11:57 solution is to morph ball or retire
12:00 because you just can't run economically.
12:02 And so and not to mention lastly the
12:04 point is that
12:08 uh solar and wind investments are very
12:12 heavy on capex which means that now the
12:15 methodology for modeling the e economic
12:17 viability has to be made on the entire
12:20 life cycle of the asset which means you
12:22 have to make some very significant assumptions
12:24 assumptions
12:26 about what is your revenue model and
12:28 what is the mark if it's electricity
12:31 market what that market will behave like
12:35 over the entire example 20 year life of
12:37 a battery. So this is very different
12:41 from existing fossil fuel gas and coal
12:43 generation because a significant
12:46 component of your cost is fuel cost and
12:49 you can still continually manage that
12:51 through hedging contracts for your gas
12:53 and coal supply but you can't do that
12:55 for wind and solar. There's no cost to
12:57 hedge against future wind and solar
12:59 pricing because the cost is zero. All
13:03 right. So therefore when we do even
13:06 techn technical power system planning we
13:09 need to therefore consider also the
13:11 economic and commercial side of the
13:15 equation because that is what enables
13:17 the planned capacity to be delivered.
13:20 otherwise will have no capacity
13:22 delivered which is a predicament that
13:24 AMO has flagged in his latest um
13:27 electric uh electricity statement of
13:30 opportunities report where AMO qualified
13:35 that Australia's ability to meet the 43%
13:38 emissions reduction target is now
13:40 contingent on a timely
13:45 commissioning of new VR capacity and
13:46 these are the factors which are now
13:48 actually causing delays. We are
13:51 observing that in projects.
13:53 >> Okay. Thank you Dr. Wong for that uh
13:55 very insightful explanation about grid
13:57 planning. Maybe to hear from Jonathan
14:00 and Jenming the developer and EPC
14:02 perspective. Uh how important really is
14:04 understanding the infrastructure
14:06 availability and expansion road maps uh
14:09 to you know investing and promoting the
14:10 re industry.
14:13 >> Maybe maybe I start first. So so thanks
14:15 um and uh Dr. one can certainly relate
14:17 to all the challenges that they faced in
14:19 Australia which is also causing a fair
14:21 bit of frustration also um I think there
14:23 are a lot of valuable lessons that you
14:25 can actually extract and to look at the
14:27 market that we are in here as an example
14:29 there were a lot of talks around systems
14:32 planning coordinated planning I think at
14:33 the end of the day what we're trying to
14:36 do is to drive best value for consumer
14:38 if you're able to coordinate a
14:39 transmission network built out to
14:41 connect to places where there are wind
14:43 and solar resources which fundamentally
14:45 doesn't have any connections. Anyway,
14:48 that is effectively what energy co is
14:50 doing in New South Wales just to kind of
14:52 go back to the example of what Dr. Wong
14:54 is saying and in that particular case
14:56 giving the the right guarantees having
14:58 the right coordination allows to drive
15:00 investors confidence as well and that is
15:01 important because from an EDF
15:03 perspective for those those of you who
15:06 don't know we are EDF power solutions it
15:09 is a subsidiary of EDF group or probably
15:11 better known as the nuclear producer of
15:15 the world 100% owned by the French state
15:17 in my opinion I think that renewables
15:19 for transition is already a mature
15:21 technology but that I'll leave it to uh
15:23 Jonathan to address further but I feel
15:25 that you solve one problem but you
15:28 create another which is what Dr. Wong
15:30 has been suggesting a lot in terms of
15:32 grid instability.
15:33 Hence, what is what is the solution
15:36 behind this? My personal experience in
15:37 Australia is that I've looked at every
15:39 single data room of Palm Hydro
15:42 acquisition in Australia. I think the
15:43 reality here that we understand is that
15:46 Palm Hydro with all due respect is not
15:48 building solar or wind. It is an asset
15:51 class that requires long gestation, long
15:53 lead items that has been discussed as
15:55 well. So if you kind of categorically
15:57 split these two up together what we have
15:59 to understand here is that the system
16:02 planning part plays an important role
16:04 and in that particular case what what
16:06 then what that makes sense we we we have
16:08 looked at as mentioned all the data room
16:11 we have actually rejected more advanced
16:13 projects just because the design weren't
16:14 right just because the contractors
16:16 weren't right because going for the more
16:18 advanced project on paper doesn't mean
16:20 that it can be delivered failing to get
16:22 delivered means that you won't have the
16:24 right system to integrate all these
16:27 variable renewables to ensure what the
16:30 topic was which is a just smooth
16:37 >> Okay. Uh thanks Jaming and Dr. Wong. So
16:39 to add on to that I think what the key
16:42 enablers are for for us to have a
16:44 successful IE transition. I think again
16:46 uh just to reemphasize grid
16:49 infrastructure and capacity. Um there is
16:51 a data point that 80% of delayed
16:52 renewable energy projects uh in the
16:56 world uh globally is because of um grid
16:59 connection issues. So I think um having
17:01 the grid there is an investment that
17:02 needs to be made like we were chatting
17:04 earlier that it's a you need to build
17:06 the highway first before you put the
17:08 vehicles on the road. So I think uh
17:10 greater infrastructure is the key
17:13 component. Of course. Then um I think
17:16 governments uh and especially in ASEAN
17:19 uh if we could get together and do more
17:22 technical and regional grid coordination
17:25 I think would significantly uh allow us
17:28 to have a better uh renewable energy
17:32 transition because uh there is also if
17:34 that if we
17:37 were to have ASEAN as a single grid
17:39 connected entity we would be the fourth
17:40 largest electricity consumer in the
17:43 world. So, uh I think there is uh a lot
17:45 of positive and benefits uh that we can
17:47 come together and and build a very
17:51 strong um grid in ASEAN that is powered
17:54 mostly by renewables.
17:56 >> Thank you. Thank you Jing and Jonathan.
17:58 So having heard the importance or the
18:00 gravitas of having robust grid
18:02 infrastructure and clear guidance for
18:05 system expansion, uh what are some key
18:08 lessons that Azan or Malaysia even could
18:10 perhaps take from other more developed
18:12 countries in expanding their grid
18:14 infrastructure in building out their re
18:21 All right, some of the lessons learned.
18:24 Um I think at the moment
18:27 now Australia is at a stage where the
18:30 existing grid infrastructure can no
18:32 longer provide sufficient hosting
18:35 capacity for the amount of re that
18:37 Australia needs to take it beyond the
18:39 current 40%. And so you may have heard
18:43 of some of the ma major uh transmission
18:46 augmentation projects. Uh now one of the
18:48 projects I was um involved in in the
18:51 early stages was the project energy
18:53 connect which is an interconnector
18:54 between South Australia and New South
18:57 Wales. Um that one is an interesting
19:00 case study because originally that
19:02 interconnector is meant to cause to to
19:06 cost a total of Australian 1.9 billion
19:08 and was supposed to be operational by 2023.
19:09 2023.
19:12 So unfortunately now the cost on that
19:16 project has now increased to 4.1 billion
19:20 more than doubled and has now the latest
19:22 commissioning date has been pushed back
19:26 to end 2026 potentially early 2027.
19:30 So one of the learnings now we see is
19:34 that now the re uptake in Australia is
19:40 now challenged because of the speed that
19:42 we can deliver the necessary
19:45 transmission upgrades. Now what are some
19:47 of the factors here? I think um one of
19:50 the general issues that as a nation that
19:52 Australia is now struggling with is
19:56 productivity. So this is economicwide.
19:58 is not just about the power industry uh
20:01 but it's certainly manifesting itself in
20:04 terms of increased costs and delays in
20:06 power projects and so I think one of the
20:09 lessons that ASEAN can take from at
20:12 least from Australia's recent experience
20:16 in transmission projects firstly is make
20:19 sure that you get the cost part right
20:22 cost control is essential and in a
20:25 course of project delivery your project
20:28 governance and project control is very
20:30 very important. That's the first aspect
20:34 here. Um another aspect we also found is
20:37 in some sectors for example in pump
20:41 hydro now pump hydro the last major
20:43 projects in Australia were completed in
20:45 the early 1980s
20:48 and until the the recent the latest
20:50 project which is Snowy 2.0. I'm sure
20:52 some of you have heard of that. That
20:55 means 40 years have passed since the
20:58 last projects were delivered. And so
21:01 what's happened is that generation of
21:03 expertise, the engineers from the
21:06 original snowy projects have now retired
21:10 and left the industry. And so when
21:13 Australia tried to resume its
21:15 development in hydro, we found that we
21:18 actually lack the right experiences and
21:21 skill sets because they no longer exist.
21:24 And that is one of the reasons I believe
21:27 why we are seeing the issues that snowy
21:30 2.0 is experiencing right now. There are
21:32 number of other issues actually but we
21:35 won't go into that in too detail. So the
21:37 lesson therefore here for Assean is that
21:40 to ensure the upskilling the human
21:43 resource both in terms of the
21:46 appropriate skills they need as well as
21:49 to make sure the quantities are
21:52 available to drive your transmission or
21:55 grid uh infrastructure upgrades. Now
21:57 what is fit for purpose? Now this
22:00 there's no single answer to that. Every
22:02 country will have its own unique power
22:05 grid configuration. You have your own
22:09 unique social economic context and you
22:11 will of course have different fuel
22:14 resources. Some countries will be richer
22:16 or most countries will be richer in
22:19 solar but some may have additionally
22:22 access to viable wind as well as hydro.
22:24 And so therefore you need to make the
22:27 call therefore on the right technologies
22:30 of which you will need capacity in terms
22:33 of the manpower and the skills that you
22:36 need in order to ensure that this this
22:38 is actually part of that supply chain
22:40 issue. The supply chain is not just
22:43 about equipment. It's not just about um
22:46 transmission infrastructure but on the
22:49 people the human resource needed to
22:52 deliver on those upgrades and therefore
22:55 the energy transition
22:57 >> may thank you Dr. Wong and maybe Jenming
22:59 and John given your international
23:03 exposure uh where what are some good
23:04 lessons you have learned from
23:07 international markets uh in promoting
23:09 ARI growth and making sure that uh the
23:11 growth in AR ties together with the
23:14 buildout of infrastructure. Maybe I can
23:16 go first on this also. I think I think
23:18 we have all recognized that transmission
23:20 is always consistently the problem and
23:23 and in fact it is now being put in such
23:24 a situation where we are facing
23:26 knee-jerk reactions where people don't
23:28 want to inject high capacity or rather
23:31 low capacity factor generation into the
23:33 grid and they are forcing um on one side
23:35 the supply side to build batteries to
23:37 increase the capacity factor and on the
23:38 other side the high load demand
23:40 customers are also being forced and
23:41 turned away from the grid because
23:43 they're consuming so much power that
23:45 they are draining capacity from the grid
23:47 that could that could potentially cause
23:50 blackout. So now you have two different
23:52 sides of equation on on the demand side
23:53 people are going to build micro grids on
23:55 their own on the supply side people are
23:57 trying to colllocate solar plus battery.
23:58 I'm not saying that's a bad thing but
24:00 that's the status of reality but when
24:02 you start to propagate all this is that
24:05 really the best use of system or
24:07 actually we can say that we can actually
24:08 have a little bit more foresight to plan
24:10 a little bit more of a long duration
24:11 storage and the world that we live in
24:12 this part of the world it's just not
24:15 much wind it's a lot of solar so it's
24:16 not difficult to kind of time the
24:18 duration of storage you need to shift so
24:20 with all this system planning and proper
24:23 planning in place actually you can drive
24:25 a lot more investors confidence without
24:26 having the curtailment and guarantee
24:28 some dispatch and even drive the load
24:31 center on the other side.
24:34 >> Yep. Um well for me um with the Aries
24:36 energy we've done uh utility scale
24:38 projects in uh Malaysia, Philippines,
24:41 Vietnam and now starting in Australia.
24:44 So um some of the lessons we've learned
24:45 Dr. Wong has covered Australia. Uh fair
24:47 enough. But I think in the Philippines
24:49 we do get speed uh in terms of approvals
24:53 to deploy utility scale projects. Um but
24:55 the grid planning side we have to work
24:58 with NGCP and that we do see some um
25:00 pros and cons as as compared to
25:01 Australia where in Australia you do take
25:03 at least 12 to 24 months to develop a
25:06 project just for grid approval whereas
25:07 in the Philippines you get can get it in
25:10 6 months. So what I see from an EPC
25:12 point of view in in in this part of the
25:14 world is that we need to balance speed
25:17 with uh stability. Um, this is where I
25:21 need to commend uh Malaysia, the
25:22 government uh energy commission and
25:25 TMBB. We've been doing it slow and
25:28 steady. Um, rolling out renewable
25:30 energy, making sure we have the right
25:32 talent pool to do it. And, uh, I think
25:34 there there needs to be a good lesson
25:36 because when we went to Vietnam, we did
25:38 the fit out uh, together with the the
25:41 the rest of them, 3 gigawatts in 2018
25:43 and, uh, during COVID there was between
25:46 30 to 50% contailment. Um so again great
25:49 great readiness. One of the other
25:51 lessons we could learn uh is in Europe I
25:56 think it was it Denmark um as uh DT uh
25:58 Sarro from TMBB just now was saying
26:01 relationships Denmark used its neighbors
26:05 as a um battery storage. um they linked
26:07 up their grid with Norway and you know
26:09 the other European countries uh so that
26:12 they would stabilize um their their
26:14 renewable energy penetration into their
26:15 own grid together with their neighbors
26:18 and they would share and I think this
26:20 this could be a good direction for ASEAN
26:22 to to work towards.
26:24 >> Thank you John. And um I think following
26:26 on from that you know what what would be
26:29 the impact of uh poor system planning or
26:31 not ensuring the appropriate
26:34 infrastructure is in place uh before the
26:37 re industry grows its installed capacity
26:40 and can the ASAM power grid be a
26:43 solution to that?
26:47 >> Yep. So I think on the topic of uh power
26:50 system planning uh I think uh the the
26:53 challenge here is you have to reook at
26:57 what fitness for purpose power system
26:59 planning really means when you are
27:02 dealing with integrating re where the
27:05 technology is still evolving. So have
27:07 you seen again the example that
27:09 inverterbased resources are now moving
27:12 from the previous uh dependence or
27:15 dominance of grid following generation
27:18 to now increasingly looking at grid
27:21 forming technology to try to backfill
27:24 some of that grid stability services
27:26 that that were the deficit that has
27:30 emerged as you retire legacy synchronous
27:33 generation. Now this means that now the
27:36 fitness for purpose in power system
27:39 planning is not a function of just your
27:41 understanding of your transmission
27:44 network. It now is closely coupled to
27:48 the availability of the technology that
27:51 will deliver the next generation of
27:54 great reliability and stability services
27:57 that you will need in order to maintain
27:59 your supply reliability and security.
28:01 Now this means that power system
28:04 planners now cannot work in isolation.
28:06 You have to work very closely with the
28:09 generation and also the network support
28:12 technology providers and developers.
28:15 These are another category. So um grid
28:17 forming batteries is a very good example
28:20 of that because the initial grid forming
28:23 batteries in fact at this point there
28:26 are no universal global standard on what
28:29 is a grid forming battery. What are the
28:31 functionality required? Right? Unlike
28:34 for example a gas turbine synchronous
28:36 generator, you can buy one from almost
28:40 any OE that will be compliant to any
28:43 grid code that currently exists. Not so
28:46 for example for grid forming inverters.
28:48 And so the challenge here for power
28:50 system planner is that now you really
28:54 need to engage the technology supply
28:57 chain ultimately to see what are the
28:59 options available today. What are the
29:02 options that are going to be available
29:05 in the next uh near term five say 5
29:08 years but more importantly are they
29:12 available in the right scale or quantity
29:14 given that most jurisdictions are
29:18 planning to integrate gaw solar and wind
29:21 over the five next five or 10 years. So
29:25 there is therefore this in in in summary
29:27 uh fitforpurpose system planning now has
29:30 to be a lot more holistic. You need to
29:34 consider all aspects of the grid and not
29:37 just the transmission poles and w and
29:39 distribution poles and wires but
29:41 certainly on the generation side as well
29:43 to the degree that perhaps it never
29:46 needed to consider under the previous
29:48 planning approach.
29:51 >> Thank you Dr. Wong. And maybe uh John I
29:54 think you touched earlier on capacity uh
29:57 cailment uh and I think Jenming as well
29:59 maybe it's a developers perspective on
30:01 the potential impacts of poor
30:02 infrastructure planning.
30:04 >> Yeah sure I'll take it first.
30:05 >> Yeah. So I think just quickly on this
30:07 would be yeah if if we don't invest in
30:09 the grid early uh we would have a lot of
30:11 stranded assets. So I think it's
30:13 critical um that that these come in as I
30:15 mentioned earlier on fitting out too
30:16 fast too quickly and then you'll have
30:20 cailment on these plants. So um is it
30:22 isn't just about cables uh at the end of
30:24 the day for for this. It's also about
30:26 confidence contracts and and stability
30:28 of the grid. So I think we must invest
30:29 in it.
30:31 >> I like the example that Jonathan gave
30:33 earlier about Denmark relying on Norway.
30:35 Um and another quote that I'll give of
30:37 Steve Jobs that you can sometimes only
30:39 connect the dots looking backwards. And
30:41 this particular case EDF in France did
30:43 not build Palm Hydro to service the
30:45 excess solar that comes out of Spain
30:47 from day one. It actually built Palm
30:49 Hydro to service all the nuclear power
30:51 plant fleets that it has for safety
30:53 purposes and reasons and now it becomes
30:56 such an incredible asset for us to
30:58 balance the entire system uh in Europe
31:00 because they share the same fiscal
31:02 system. And back to our region here more
31:04 often than not you have some hydro
31:06 assets out in Sarowak or in Laos you
31:08 have a lot of solar in this region. How
31:09 do we connect? I think it's about the
31:12 baby steps for us to take and once we
31:14 get there and you need obviously
31:16 experienced infrastructure developer um
31:19 us inclusive among others people who are
31:21 capable of building it to be able to
31:23 deliver those assets on time and I think
31:25 that's one of the most important thing
31:27 that uh we all we all we all share today
31:29 >> yeah uh maybe if I can jump in again
31:33 here wayhan because um I just want to u
31:35 add another aspect on the power system
31:39 planning u what kind of call
31:41 reform or improvements we need. Now,
31:44 power system planners generally do their
31:46 work in order to comply with the
31:49 regulation of the Greek code. Uh most
31:52 national grid codes include requirements
31:54 of for power system security and
31:56 reliability embedded in the Greek code.
31:59 And so I need to highlight now that
32:03 again with the rapid evolution of
32:05 generation technology in the inverter
32:08 generation space, the grid code need to
32:11 keep pace with the change. And so
32:14 therefore there need to be um a kind of
32:18 a quick and efficient Greek code review
32:21 process in to ensure that the Greek
32:23 codes remain current. Now just to give
32:25 you an example when I started in
32:28 Australia nearly 20 years ago you
32:31 probably get a new version of the grid
32:33 code or we call the Australian national
32:35 electricity rules probably one new
32:39 version every year but today for the
32:42 last I would say seven to eight years we
32:45 get a new version every month every
32:48 month there's a new version the original
32:50 Australian Greek code was about 300
32:54 pages now it's or 3,000 pages. Okay,
32:59 this is an example of how quickly your
33:02 grid code need to change to adapt to
33:04 keep pace with the changes not just in
33:06 technology but in your market and your
33:09 generation makes and secondly it's also
33:12 an indication of how complex the
33:14 requirements have become that now your
33:17 Greek code has become 10 times as you
33:20 know as as long essentially so the
33:21 message here I'd like to convey
33:23 therefore is more to the regular
33:26 regulators that the regulators now also
33:30 need to ensure that their process uh
33:32 basically also fit for purpose
33:34 particularly to keep up with a fast
33:38 evolving power system and fast evolving
33:41 technology uh development that's going
33:43 on especially in inverterbased generation.
33:45 generation.
33:47 >> Thank you Dr. Wong. Uh it sounds like
33:49 there's a lot of coordination which is
33:50 required for this Asian power grid to
33:53 work. uh maybe in the interest of time
33:55 uh what would be the one key takeaway
33:58 you would want to uh you know provide
34:01 the audience for this session?
34:02 >> Yep. Sorry. Uh can you repeat the
34:05 question way because echo yeah
34:07 >> just as uh in the interest of time to
34:08 close off the session what would be one
34:10 key takeaway you would like to give the
34:13 audience for this session? Uh yeah, I
34:15 think the probably the one key takeaway
34:19 is that um now whilst there are now a
34:22 number of uh case study examples that
34:25 countries in ASEAN can reference and
34:28 there are ample examples I I've been
34:29 talking about Australia but I also need
34:31 to add there are plenty of yearing uh
34:33 learnings from Europe from jurisdictions
34:35 like Germany, Northern Ireland, Great
34:38 Britain particularly say in offshore
34:40 wind for example even in the United
34:42 States that you can reference
34:46 However, ultimately you have your own
34:49 country, your own unique technical,
34:54 social, economic context and definitely
34:56 therefore you cannot just take a cut and
34:58 paste approach. But what you need to do
35:01 is really to take the building block
35:04 learnings from other jurisdictions but
35:07 create your own very unique solution,
35:10 your own very unique recipe to attain
35:12 the economic
35:15 and sustainable renewable integration
35:18 including any interconnection between
35:20 the countries. So I think in other words
35:24 own own your own journey define your own
35:25 journey because it will be uniquely
35:29 yourself but do draw on the general
35:30 learnings from elsewhere internationally.
35:33 internationally.
35:35 Final final two points is really um just
35:38 to echo Dr. Wong's point is while there
35:40 are a lot of learnings that we can take
35:42 internationally um the key point is
35:44 there's no need to reinvent the wheel if
35:46 we don't have to. And last but not least
35:49 within the region um we are not European
35:50 Union. We are trying I mean even
35:52 Australia itself is very fragmented in
35:54 its own rights in this region is about
35:57 building trust starting one of the first
35:58 projects and that really starts to
36:02 unlock a lot more potential.
36:04 >> Yeah. So for me [clears throat] is I I
36:07 guess uh renewable energy in ASEAN I
36:09 think if we get it right um it's not
36:11 just about renewable energy but it's
36:13 actually about regional prosperity for everybody.
36:16 everybody.
36:19 Thank you very much. Uh maybe any
36:27 If not, we'll close the session.
36:28 Thank you.
36:30 >> Thank you so much, Dr. Wong, Jenming,
36:32 Jonathan, as well as our moderator for
36:35 this panel, Wei Han. That was very
