Hello and welcome back to another
episode of Mom's Shoe Tea. So, the other
day I ran across a picture on Facebook
and it was of a black man in the gym and
his t-shirt said, "Black moms ruin sons
and child." After clutching my virtual
pearls, I had to really process that.
Like, my brothers, do you really feel
like some black moms have ruined their
sons? This episode is not going to be
about dragging black men. And although
I'm curious about this generalization of
black moms ruining sons, and I felt like
his t-shirt could have said some moms
ruin sons because I actually agree with
that. But I don't believe it's just
black moms ruining their sons. It did,
however, spark some real hard questions
and led me to this conversation.
questions like why some of y'all project
deep resentment onto your moms and by
extension that bleeds on to black women
as a collective because I've seen the
disrespectful ways some of you respond
in my comments and now I realize that
you don't hate your black moms like I
thought initially but some of you are
[Music]
I also see the podcast with black men
bashing black women and it's a bit
unnerving, but again, I want to unpack
this because I said before, I thought
some of y'all really do hate your black
mom. So, let's unpack it a little bit
more. I have an amazing guest here today
um to unpack this with me. He is a
licensed therapist and trauma
specialist, Jeff James. Jeff is a
licensed professional counselor and
certified prolonged exposure therapist
based out of Philadelphia with over a
decade of experience. Jeff specializes
in PTSD, trauma, grief, men's issues,
and relationship challenges. He's also
the founder of the Philadelphia Therapy
and Wellness Club and the voice behind
Ask a Brother podcast. Welcome, Jeff,
and thanks for coming on the show. Thank
you. Thank you for allowing me on your
platform in your space. Yeah. So, let's
get into it. So, Jeff, have black moms
I'm going to answer this. I understand
that this is a very touchy subject and
with a lot of your listeners, I'm
assuming a heavy percentage of them are
women and are M. Um, so the first thing
I'm gonna say is don't y'all treat me
like y'all treating these Teslas out
there. Okay. Um, my short answer is yes.
But they are the ones to blame. I think
that okay fathers, social media, um feminism,
feminism,
uh entertainment and music industries,
justice system, um various levels of
government and various lobbying groups
pushing specific social engineering
agendas are all a part of the reason for
why black boys, who eventually grow into
black men, if they do, are part of the
blame. I don't put it all on on women or
moms specifically, but I do think that
they do have a a part in why things have
been going and declining. Yeah, Jeff,
you raised a good point and I agree with
with you. I never really noticed it
before. Social media opens up a
floodgate of things for you to be
exposed to. And when men come into my
comments, they can never just disagree
with me if I'm talking about parenting
type of situations. Um, they come in
with such vitrial and so much
disrespect. And I'm like, why are y'all
so angry? And then it made me start
thinking they're so angry with moms, but
why don't they have that same energy
with the dads that abandoned not only
them, but the mother as well?
Yeah. Uh, for starters, with this these
types of conversations, especially when
they're on social media, as a clinician,
I've learned both in observation and
through study and just studying
populations and how we interact with
each other, it tends to be the case that
when we're looking at the out group, we
tend to want to generalize. And when
we're focused on ourselves, we want to
be treated as individuals. Mhm. When
women hear men say things about mothers,
um, you know, take it personally, but
when they make comments about men, they
have no problem generalizing and vice
versa. So, that's actually what's being
triggered is each time you hear
something about your group and if it
doesn't apply to you, you're going to
you're going to feel some type of way
about it. Um, so this is when you're
saying when women are exclaiming and
saying how they're being treated by men,
which really men they chose, there's men
who've never dated them and never been
with them and maybe haven't even done
those specific things that they're
referencing and saying not all men do
that. Not all, not all moms, not all
dads. Yeah. But that that's where it's
coming from. And both sides actually do
it, unfortunately. Yeah, I agree that
some moms and I don't think it's just
isolated to black moms. I think it could
be a mom from any background and I do
agree with the narrative that some moms
do ruin their sons. So, let's talk about
how systemically
um black homes have been impacted by
incarceration, you know, absence due to
barriers, addiction, whatever it may be.
Let's talk about that a little bit and
how it has impacted our black families
and these young men that have grown up
during this era and time as well. Yeah.
For starters, when it comes to anything
that's really sensitive, um especially
early on in treatment, whether it's a
man or woman, um of any age, um I tend
to start very early with not just deep
diving into the tough stuff because I
want people to um start with and I
actually will do this with your audience
within every group, within every
setting, within every discussion,
there's two types of people. There are
people that's going to go into the
conversation or into the debate or into
whatever form of dialogue we're about to
do where their primary focus is that
they're interested in truth
and evaluating whether their lives are
aligned with it or needs to be better
aligned with said truth. There's another
group of people who tends to be more
focused on how the truth makes them
feel. Yeah. And that and dictates
whether they will listen and receive it.
Very true. That actually is going to
explain a lot more in terms of what's
going on between sons and their mothers,
between people talk about politics, how
family members and friends can or can't
get along.
You have to first selfch checkck
yourself. Am I approaching this going
into this conversation like this
conversation which is are black moms to
blame for their black sons? Are you are
you even coming into listening to what
we're doing right now through the lens
of whether it's true or are you coming
at it through the lens of whe how it's
going to make you feel? Yeah. Want to
challenge people. every single person
that's watching this, let's do a
personal challenge to let's lean more
into our reason, our logic, our our
critical thinking skills and our
objectivity and our rationality more so
than our emotions and feelings and vibes
and tradition and comfort and being
triggered because I guarantee you,
you're going to be much more susceptible
to being triggered and being willing to
reject what's coming even if I have all
the data to back up claims. So, so, you
know, I always try to preface that
before we just jump in and start listing
things off. If you're already coming at
it through the lens of um he's a man, so
he ain't got nothing to say or something
I don't want to hear. Um read because I
don't feel like you already this isn't
going to be for you. So, absolutely. My
basic basic core initial principle with
these types of discussions is going to
be go where the truth takes us, adjust
and recalibrate as needed. Um, and don't
set the truth aside for the sake of your
ego and feelings. Um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
And and you rais a good point because
that's what I deal with on my platform
quite often. Um, you know, put things in
captions to get attention. However,
people automatically don't listen or try
to comprehend and they just get
triggered and they speak from that
perspective. So, yeah, I totally agree.
Um, so, so let's get back into some of
the reasons that one, black families are
torn apart, but why so much frustration
is towards the mother. Because I feel
like mothers as the visible parent and
that's only if the child is in a one
parent home, I feel like mothers get the
brunt of that frustration. And I'll give
you an example. I posted an clip and it
said, "Stop disrespecting and abusing
the parent who stayed." And I did not
expect the comments that I received.
Now, when I say who stayed, I'm never
talking about you should honor a person
who stayed just because they were
physically there. I know people that
stay, they're verbally abusive, they're
physically abusive, they're toxic, they
have trauma, they impose that trauma of
their children, too. So, I'm never
talking about that type of parent. I'm
always talking about the parent who
supported you in every way emotionally,
physically, spiritually, and
financially. And also took on the brunt
of all of the frustration that you may
have as a result of another parent not
being there. And it could be a mom or a
dad. So, let's unpack some of the
frustration that I see. Okay. Yeah. Um,
thank you for that. And I and I can
totally see when you're seeing these
visceral reactions and responses to just
don't disrespect the person who the
parent who stayed. What why is that a
controversial statement? Um yeah, I I'll
I'll try to explain why. I break this
down into probably three main
components. The first is
historically and presently what happened
and what's currently happening. How and
why did we get here and then what to do
about it. And I do hope that if we do it
in this way, it's going to kind of from
a very linear perspective make sense. I
love it. Always start with if you had a
doctor and your doctor didn't want to
hurt your feelings or tell you anything
that made you feel self-conscious or
tell you something that was going to
raise or spike your anxiety or your
paranoia or your anger or resentment or
anything. I envision that doctor
wouldn't tell you anything bad that's
going on internally. what's wrong with you?
you?
A good doctor is going to be the one
that's going to tell you the things that
may be hard hard pills to swallow, maybe
telling you lifestyle choices that are
actually destroying you, and basically
tell you what's wrong and what
potentially could be killing you. Um,
with this topic, let's go over well,
what's actually happened in the black
community. Um, I'm going to range from,
let's say, 1890 to 1960 and beyond.
Okay? 1990 to
1960, black women were more likely to be
married than white women.
At one point in that iteration, I
believe it was as low as like a 6 to 7%
never married percentage for black women
during that time period. So from
reconstruction all the way up until the
60s, it was very it was highly likely
that a black woman would have been
married or were still married at that
time. Mhm. Obviously from 1960 on
something changed. Yeah.
2010 25% of black women have never been
married and as of 2025 is now up to 50%.
Now for wow comparison purposes Asian
women are at 59% and white women are at
53. Onethird of black people of the head
of the household are women. 40% of black
people are married are in married
households versus obviously basically
one but but the other comp everybody
else a third of them are in single
mother households 72% of all children
with two parents
um if you factor in all populations that
number is up to 72%
that's what's happening in our community
yeah that's huge blacks in terms of the
ages between Um
uh I can't I actually was after and I've
been finding contradictory de uh data on
this but with black men they face a
significantly higher unemployment rate,
less yearly earnings. Yes, labor force
participation than white men. Black
children under 18 have a poverty rate of
22.3. Black men are incarcerated and
have a higher risk of being victims of
crime than white men. Black boys nearly
two times more likely to be suspended.
Twothirds of all suspensions are by are
as a result of black boys. Half
youngsters who get suspended from
preschool are black students. Black boys
are more likely than any other group to
be placed in special education. 80% of
special education students are black and
Hispanic. Black boys are more likely to
drop out of school, lower test scores.
In 2024, Black Star Project found 10% of
eighth grade boys were reading at
proficient level. Only 6% of 12 grade
black males are reading at grade level
as recent as 2019. Lowest I'm sorry,
Jeff. Do you think some of this has a
lot to do with this anger displacement?
Of all paternity tests were coming back
as the the male that was being tested
was not the biological father. Whoa.
Third, that's what's being tested. So,
wow. when I I wouldn't go so far as to
say it's misplaced. Okay. Potentially
saying maybe there's a too big of a
percentage being placed on the shoulders
of moms. There's a difference. There's a
difference between being angry at
mothers. Yeah. And saying they are they
get all the blame versus some of the
blame. So, okay, how did we get
there? Clearly from 18 I mean, yeah. uh
in the 1800s all the way to 1960s
something radically different was
happening. What happened? Yeah,
definitely. Did we get here? And then
how do we conclude that women have any
responsibilities of what happened with
that? Well, right. I'm going to say
first and foremost, if you ever go on um black
black
demographics.com, the Census Bureau, and
you start looking at the actual charts,
you'll start noticing everything
starting to start spiking after 1960, 1970,
1970,
everything. Single single parent
households, divorce rates, uh mass
incarceration, it's all happening in the
same similar time period. Um, so you
can't just put it all on moms, but you
got, well, what were women doing and how
were they responding while this was
happening and going on? All right,
that's true. Well, think about it for a
second. If white feminism came
in, went to went throughout all these
various communities, ethnic and racial
communities, and started to teach women
and other groups outside of the white
community to devalue and dehumanize
their black men, their black, marriage,
um, sexual temperance, and um, and the
rejection of patriarchal boundaries that
some of which may have been there for
good reason. Mhm. Mhm. Imagine that the
women who chose to follow that that
model, they may have got some benefits
from it. Benefits included getting a
degree, being able to buy home, make
their own money, being able to be
independent, but what were the cost,
right? It's the cost not having that two
parent home. Although there can still be
two parent homes and still be trauma and
we still can face the same thing. But
you raised some very good points when
feminism came into place. It's it's two
it's a double-edged sword, right? Yeah.
It's a double-edged sword. And men today
and red pill and men that are very angry
today don't recognize that the women
many of the women who run towards
various movements um agendas uh social
engineering projects or feminism
specifically they usually go to it for a
reason. They don't just they weren't all
running to college and making their own
money. They're going because some of
them had grandmothers and mothers say,
"Make sure you make your own money.
Don't position where you're out of luck
if this guy leaves and starts a new
family or absolutely or continues to
abuse you." So there was room for why
our women started to do some of those
things, but the consequences I would argue
argue
may have sign when we what I just read
as a community, it probably outweighed
most of the benefits that we think that
we got. We got sexual freedom on one
hand and now we have onethird of all black
black
children mothers getting tested on
paternity tests. that's revealing that
the father is not who they thought it
was. Sexual
freedom. Every one in three that's
getting tested is not the actual father.
Yeah. Uh freedom to not to get to pick
and choose who your spouse is going to
be. Yeah. Highest divorce rates, lowest
marriage rates.
These things are inextricably tied
together. And yeah, so that's one. Um so
and number two, the court system on the
in the in the in the government as a
whole gave various
incentives to push this to continue in
terms of subsidies
um incentives. Uh basically they were
rewarding divorce,
single motherhood. They they and then
they were criminalizing and making money
off of black men getting arrested. So,
wow. So, the government's getting their
kick back from men getting arrested,
fathers being
and women are getting their cut if if
they leave or don't want the man to be
there in the first place. Yeah. But
that's a cost too high to pay in my
opinion. We as a community, we as a
community chose that
reconcile the fact that
when we made these choices, there were
either unintended consequences we didn't
realize and the bitterness, resentment,
and the vitriol that came after the
fact. You're like, "But I stayed. I was
there. I did this. I did that."
I think as a community as we've moved
further and further away from old
we lost sight of they were the ones that
were supposed to prep the next
generation to tell them if you are going
to be a mom and if you are going to be a
wife you are allowed to primarily think
about self and be selfish.
When you don't have those titles,
we got a lot of selfish people,
selfish women who became moms, became
and but what about this men who decided
to lead those same moms?
I would tell you this. It's not that
when I point out the topic is about moms
or mothers.
Men do this thing to women when women
point out things that men are doing to
them or how they're wrong and they say,
"Well, what about women? What about
women? What about women?" Mhm. Mhm.
Promise you if we do another episode and
if black fathers fail the black
community and failed their black sons
and their black daughters, I will spend
the next hour going into detail
explicitly and won't have to reference
moms or women one
time. This topic, you know, so so yeah,
I prom it's it's it's innate in us. It's
it's a to do this and it's like
thatction at the very beginning of the
topics like when we start hearing things
that that that starts to hit home or
hits our group are in the to want to
point out at the other group. I promise
you that's true us. How about let's do
let's use me as an example. Yes, I'm
married now. Yes, I have a a black wife.
Yes, I have a black daughter. I have not
been a perfect father, a perfect
husband. And I certainly in past
relationships, you could ask my exes,
they going to tell you I ain't been I
wasn't perfect at all. But I'm going to
tell you why I was to blame for a
contributing factor personally for why
our community is the way that it is. A
lack of sexual discipline. M a lack of
sexual discipline as a man means I am
am
risking fathering children
getting access to
STDs and setting women
up who after doing life with me or
having sex with me now may have a
tougher time pair bonding finding sexual
and marital satisfaction in their future
relationships and and
also feeling though they may have jaded
perspectives of men based off the
treatment of how I treated them in the
past cuz I didn't end up marrying or
wifing them.
That's deep. That your accountability of
realizing, reflecting on, wow, I can't
say how crappy the dating market is and
realize my body count was through the
roof and I didn't marry any of any of
them. I can't talk about
just women, women, women, women, women
women, mothers, mothers, mothers,
mothers. If I got children on the side,
like I'm going to use them as an
example, not to beat them up, but Dr.
views and treats himself as a voice of
liberation, a voice for the community.
And and he he tries often times he
somewhat criticizes and attacks black
men who sexual preferences or lifestyles
don't match up the way he want or if
they're dating a white woman or Hispanic
woman or this or that. You ain't valuing
black queens. You have black children
whose mother never married.
So the accountability is going to be
from both sides. But when I point out
the issues with black mothers, I promise
you if we talk the next 30 minutes about
what black men are doing wrong, any
mother that needs to hear this is not
going to improve because of that. Yeah.
And that's not what we're here for.
We're here to have this open dialogue,
but this podcast is mom's shooting. I'm
going to always raise those questions,
not from a no accountability
perspective, but just to shift the focus
a little bit. Um, you talked on several
things and it made what came to mind was
internalized misogyny or unhealed
trauma. You know what I'm saying? So, I
want to go into some of the reasons I do
agree to a certain point that black moms
ruin their sons. Um, and talk on a
couple points like starting with the
point of she treated her son like her
man. I did an episode on that and it
says like, "Girl, that's not your man."
And when I say treat it, I'm not saying
in a sexual or inappropriate way. I'm
saying as in putting more responsibility
on your son, making him the man of the
house. Not so much just from a take out
the trash, make sure the house is locked
down, but really putting that
responsibility on your son to make them
feel or putting them in a position where
it's almost like a relationship versus a
mother son relationship. And again, like
I said, I'm not talking about incest,
but I do believe there's like an
emotional incest and there's a mother
son codependency.
Um, again, you may have made your son
the man of the house way too early. And
I just want to know like what is
emotionally inappropriate parenting and
Twofold. Um, my mom didn't do it, but in
a way my dad kind of did, which is kind
of surprising. when my parents um split
up. Um I was I believe I was about 15
years old and I remember the exact day
the exact night that my parents finally
separated and my dad packed his bags and
as he was walking out and I was in the
living room, he walked over to me. He
gave me a kiss on my forehead and he
said, "Um, you know, you're the man of
the house now." M and even when we had
to move out of that home and and and
move into the projects temporarily as we
were moving in my uncle was helping us
move stuff and as he was leaving he said
you know you're the man of the house now
and so it's not something that just is
unique to moms or moms just put their
their sons in this position. It's kind
of the thing that just kind of happens
naturally and organically. Um,
interesting. It's a societal perspect,
but the thing is that's not explained.
Yeah. And you don't always know exactly
what to do and how to navigate that and
how to figure that out. Um, and what
they're doing effectively is they're
parentifying their children. Um, and now
what a a 13, 14, 12 year old boy who's
being told explicitly or directly,
you're the man of the house now. Yeah.
Can I am I not supposed to show weakness
anymore? Am I now supposed to
uh start getting this money even if I
can't legally get it? And do I need to
if if someone now speaks on my mother's
name or on my family member's name? Do I
now have to be the one to honor that
name and defend it even if it includes
putting me getting me in jail? Or
there's a whole endless array of how an emotionally
emotionally
uh adolescent teenager is going to try
to conceptualize what does it mean to be
a man in this situation. Yeah, that's
interesting that you said that. And at
first I felt like moms were just in
constant survival mode. So that's why a
lot of the expectations fell on the sun.
But I do realize some of you all were
placed in adult roles and that's not
okay. Um, and I think my ex-husband told
my younger son the same thing, like
you're the man of the house, but also no
other man comes in the house. And I
think he took that way too seriously
because I had moved on. You know what
I'm saying? And how was it okay for your
dad to bring different women to come and
pick you up, but it wasn't okay for me
to move forward? And that's why our
relationship I believe is um in the
space that it's in and here it is that I
moved on and he hasn't really been able
to get over that 20 plus years later.
I'm saying yeah. So let's let's talk
about a different angle because what
I've seen from some black men that get
in the comments and they'll say things
like, "Well, stop running men away." And
I'm always going to turn around and say,
"What about the mothers who never
badmouth that dad, never caused them any
trauma?" and just really moved on with
life the best way she knew how to with
her kid or her children without causing
that drama. I do know that women do push
men away. I do know that women want to
control the narrative when men move on
and get into new relationships and they
want to cause trauma and all of that.
And I do not agree with it. It's
something that I find absolutely
appalling and I don't respect women who
keep a man from their child because you
want to control that dynamic and it's
something that I prided myself on never
doing. It was just a natural thing. It
was, you know, you have children the
same way I know I have children. You
know, I'm taking on the sole custody and
the sole responsibility of both of my
sons, but I'm not going to chase you to
be a dad. I'm not going to chase you for
money. I'm not going to get into all of
that drama, but again, I know there are
women that do that. So, when it comes to
that narrative of stop running us away
and stop pushing us away, what what can
you talk about as it relates to that?
appreciate your your you being very um
forthcoming and truthful about like your
own experience and and what you st what
you try what you strove not to do in
terms of bad mouthing and and demonizing
the father of your children and
everything. It doesn't benefit anybody. I
I
think what's what tends to happen when
these types of discussions come on from
a clinician and psychological
perspective a lot of times people are
reacting to the after effects. People
are responding to um well you chased him
away or or he wasn't this or he wasn't
that or or she this or she that.
My job is really to let's my job is to
get people when I say were you going
into a relationship looking at it
through a selfless lens or a selfish
lens and were you going into it with
your eyes wide open or were you always
hiding your eyes when the red flags were
always there? Tell you why as an
example. So, woman divorces her partner,
her husband, who had they have two kids.
Um, they they've been together for 8
years. They got a 5-year-old and a
three-year-old. And she's in my
office. And as we're talking, I'm
eventually, you know, I'm listening. I'm
sharing. I'm I'm I'm displaying empathy.
I'm hearing her out. I'm hearing her
side and and of what happened and what
went wrong. And I'm not demonizing her
for wanting to
leave. There's two things I try to get
people to think about.
one, I just read all those statistics
of what
statistically you open up your child,
especially your black boys to if and
when you are going to potentially make a
decision like this.
So number two, so the first question is,
did I think about all of these factors
before I decided to end my relationship
and break up this family that I agreed
to start and I agreed to be in?
Usually usually they're thinking more
about how they're feeling in the moment
and not the short and long-term
potential consequences of who this boy
is eventually going to turn into. Mhm.
Part two, and this is the one that I'm
trying to figure out a way through these
platforms as I start doing this to get
people to start thinking earlier and
sooner about certain things before they
feel they have to make that decision. Is
the reason or reasons other than abuse, neglect,
neglect,
Yeah. other than abuse or neglect or or
theft or or things of that nature?
The question is going to be, are you
breaking up your family? Are you
splitting up the homes? Yeah. Are you
increasing your child's being at risk
for all the things we just listed off of
something you knew while y'all were
dating? That is the accountability. That
is the accountability piece for sure.
After time after
time, woman after woman after woman,
mother after mother after mother, 90 to
95% of them will narrative to their
girlfriends, to social media, to
everybody that'll hear it about how much
of a dog he was, that he cheated, that
he wasn't romantic enough, that he that
he wasn't the greatest helper around the
home, that I was doing this or doing
that. But then when I start actually probing,
probing,
and asking, well, did he ever do that?
Right. Was he ever cooking? Right. He
wait was was he ever like the type that
was really helping you with stuff,
right? Oh, so you thought going to
change when you got the ring. Oh, no.
You thought he was going to change when
you have when you gave him the baby. Oh,
no. He was going to change when you gave
him baby number three. You know, they
think that though. Like, seriously, I
think they do. I think people go into
marriage with this unrealistic
expectation that they are going to be
able to change the other person. And I
always say, you should never go into a
marriage as your best representative.
you should always go in as yourself. I
believe that you enter into a
relationship with that you put on a
facade to try to suppress them until you
get what you want and then you become a
different person. Like you can't be okay
with your man going to the strip club
and then when you get married you like I
don't want you to go to the strip club.
I tell every woman this. Anyone who's
talked to me about marriage, anybody
I've been married for 18 plus years to
the same man who is absolutely amazing.
Um, but you can't go in starting
something that you know you're not gonna
finish. You can't go in having
threesomes and then when y'all get
married, you like, "I don't really want
to do this no more, baby. I just wanted
to be us." No, but you came in and you
made it seem like it was okay for us to
have threesomes. And then when he
changes his mind, now it's it's a
problem. And there there's the battle.
I You're saying everything that's in my
head. A lot of moms are dealing with the
consequences of choices and decisions
they made. Yeah. Based off of things
they already knew when they initiated
and maintained and married and gave the
men that they did children. Yeah. Yeah.
I know that the story is all this stuff
is new and he's never done this before,
but I'm telling you as a clinician who's
been doing this for 10 years, who is
black, who came from a single parent
household, the reason why you left
should probably not be the reason.
If you continued the relationship all
the way to the point of walking down the
aisle of agreeing to certain things,
sharing assets, giving m giving this man
multiple children, etc., etc. You're
you're built it's imagine building on a
foundation that you know is faulty and
then halfway through the project being
like it's over. Well, now we're
homeless. Yeah. So why would you thought
to to continue building on the
foundation that you knew early on wasn't
going to be sufficient long term? You
said it you said it earlier. Men tend to
go into a lot of these relationships
hoping she doesn't change. Mhm. Women
often times go into relationships hoping
that he does.
Or thinking she can change him. Yeah. Or
thinking that she can change him for the
better. For the better.
So, so if you're going into
relationships thinking that you could
change him or that he's going to
eventually improve or well if I if I if
I give him a kid or if we get married
then it's going to
get me the guy that he was when you
first let's get past the the good the
good 90-day probationary period where
everybody got they present
right that next six months plus the the
the the women that's that's hitting you
up texting you the women that say, "Hey,
you know, you're man this and man that."
Did you stay? Yeah. Did you still marry
him? Yeah. Did you still Now, now if you
two were a couple and came in and I'm
hearing out about this stuff, that
doesn't mean I'm not going to challenge
him, right? Prove as a man and say,
"Listen, bro. I'm not saying you got to
be perfect. I'm not perfect, but I got
But you got to acknowledge that there
got to be more effort because you also
agreed to certain things and you got to
start to you got to start to step it up.
You're now a father. You're now a
husband. More people are now dependent
on you. You can't continue to just think
about self anymore, my guy. Because if
you keep going down this path, she's
going to change. And when she changes,
there's usually no point of no return.
And when women check out, there's almost
nothing you can do about it. Hey,
listen. R. Kelly made that song years
ago. When that song came out, I was
like, "Yeah, he's right." because that's
where I was in my marriage and I was
still trying to make it work because I
come from a home where my parents were
divorced and also abuse and domestic
violence and my my father was addicted
to to crack cocaine and our family
dynamic really beca it was already bad.
My mom married and divorced my dad and
then married him again because he
promised he would change and because she
wanted a two parent home. But what I see
the whole narrative saying, "Well, stop
pushing us away and stop running us
off." I'm like, "But why aren't you
fighting to stay?" And I'm not saying
fight to stay in the home if there's a
toxic dynamic because I will never
cosign that. But
um why why don't you all fight harder?
Even if you're not going to stay with
that mother, why aren't you fighting
harder to make sure you stay in your
child's life? I'll say this in relation
to that and it starts with the premise
that people should need to be in a
position to fight in the first place.
Like when when when men are going out to date
date
and women will sometimes brag and boast
about how difficult they are for, oh,
you know, um he's going to have to fight
for this or or you know, he needs to
okay, what if we're already doing that
in real life? Life is stressful. We're
constantly trying to improve ourselves
financially. The world is beating us up.
I done read all the statistics and stats
of what's likely to happen if if he if
he grew up in a certain situation or how
he's seen a certain way by the justice.
There's a whole there's enough war
outside. The absolute last thing that a
man would want where he's supposed to
find peace, get peace, have a home, is
having to fight with the person that's
supposed to be a conduit of those
things. Now, that doesn't mean that he
didn't do things that could contribute
to why there's all this fighting going
on. What I'm basically saying is is it
men will choose current peace over the
over current chaos.
Yeah, I agree. And and how do we know
this? Because they'll wait till their
kids turn 18,
to tell them their side of things, then
go back and forth with a woman.
The whole half the book of Proverbs is
about what it's like to live with a
woman who doesn't bring peace.
That's a book.
I wonder why a biblical writer would
spend so much time about what it means
to be a contentious wife versus a
Proverbs 31 woman. Right. Right. Right.
Consequences are generationally impactful.
impactful.
We don't actually want to be in a
scenario where we got to fight and keep
going back and forth with somebody for
leadership, for direction, for what what
what uh what the kid what the kids can
or can't wear. um what's g how much
money we gonna spend in refernishing the
home, what type of home we gonna get,
this that this that. It gets to the
place for a lot of men where they're
like, I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not
doing this because and I'll argue this,
the more of a man that he is, the less
he's going to tolerate attempts at you
trying to control, manipulate, um
assassinate his character, um disrespect
him, berate him. is actually it's
actually if he's if he's the man you
think he is he's actually going to
tolerate that less right in a child is
not going to make him tolerate it as he
should I totally agree with that the
consequence of that from the man's
perspective is he's going to miss out on
everything almost
he he now was going to split his time
significantly with his children if he
even's going to go through that. Mhm.
How about
this? If I've had women or female
friends, family members, co-workers,
co-workers,
clients, all to varying degrees admit to property
property
destruction, admit to various
manipulation tactics, lying lying about
being pregnant and pregnancy tests. Uh
manipulation tactics is saying, "Well,
if you do this, I'm going to tell the
police you did black did that." calling
the police when when y'all having
arguments and disputes where he hasn't
threatened or or or or attempted to
threaten or do anything to you. Calling
brothers and uncles saying this man is
doing this and doing that. But when they
show the version of what you spun that
could have gotten people killed or
arrested wasn't actually what matched
up. Men are dying because of the
inability for women to
choose men correctly from the beginning.
So when we say, "Well, why aren't they
fighting harder? Why is he why are you
two in a position where he needs to
fight for anything?"
That's good. That's what I'm talking
about from a therapeutic psychological
perspective. We are so damaged as a
community. I agree that we will uphold
and elevate all the bad things, all the
bad traits and
qualities sexually, relationally, with
marriage, with toxicity. Why don't they
fight? Why don't you bring peace? Mhm.
Well, cuz who wants to fight all the
time? We're We've been fighting for a
long time. I want peace. Like I said, I
used to think that that rage was this
expression because of the father in some
cases being absent. And that was what
was being projected on the women who
really love our sons. Like we really do
love our sons. There's some moms that
are not built to be moms at all. Um
they're not emotionally, spiritually
equipped to be moms. And I know that.
But I always circle back to the ones who
do love you and some of that pain being
projected onto those moms. I want to
pivot a little bit. How do we start
healing? Because we talked about
accountability. You've made some really
great points of like you said, you knew
who you were getting in a relationship.
I think a lot of times we do, but then I
think sometimes everybody brings their
best representative. Like I said, so you
could have had someone that was starting
out, they amazing when you were dating.
They checked off all the boxes, even in
the first year of marriage, but then
something switches. I know women that
have been in long-term relationships,
and now they're like, "This is not even
a person that I know anymore, and they
have walked out on their children. I'd
like to create a peaceful environment
for my husband. I always have, but not
just for him, for me." And then when my
children were growing up, definitely
coming out of a toxic, abusive, domestic
type of relationship, I got a divorce
because I wanted them to have some
peace. I knew what it came with, but I
knew what staying would do even more.
So, how do we move forward? We talked
about the accountability piece. How do
we start breaking some of the cycles
without repeating them? because I see it
being repetitive not only just with
black men but even black daughters
against their moms and it just seems
like this phenomena that moms are now
this endangered species just not quite
understanding why there's so much of an
attack on moms so how do we break this
cycle how you know I feel like the
millennials the genzies they're already
in this cycle of wanting to build walls
instead of building bridges um But how
do we change that for this next
generation coming in?
Um, if we acknowledge that the
patriarchy where things are male and men
centered and and much of of society was
shaped around the patriarchy and we can
highlight all the flaws of it. There may
have been some potential benefits but
there were probably some potential
flaws. There's probably no other
community that further resembles
anything closer to a matriarchy and
being uh gyocentric than the black
community by far. The stats say by far
we're the closest thing to a matriarchy
maybe arguably in the world, let alone
in our community. Well, we have to first
acknowledge and start with the outcomes.
outcomes.
If we're saying men are leaving and men
are giving up and men ain't there and
men ain't this, the data and stats say
70% of all relation relationships,
particularly marriages, are being
initiated by women. And it's as high as
80% if they're college educated.
So you may have these outlier cases
where a mom was really good or a man
just walked out on a really good woman
and this this and that. Fair. I'm not
going to never lie and tell you you
ain't that's that's a lie. That's not
true. It clearly is true. It's the
exception doesn't make the rule. Yeah.
We are a matriarchy. If we are
functionally more gyocentric in
nature and we're having these outcomes,
we have to get to a place that we have
to be open to the possibility that maybe
a lot of this anger and frustration and
vitriol maybe isn't being communicated
well. Mhm. Part of it is
is
you you can't have this structure have
these outcomes and say you're doing
everybody's doing a great job, right?
The math ain't math. Yeah. Something is
off. So you're saying what do we what do
we need to identify? What do we need to
do? How do we need to fix these two
things? Yeah. Like what does that inner
work look like for all of us? Yes. two
movies, especially for this audience,
that I want everybody to go see if they
haven't, and they're staples for a lot
of people in the black community. Soul Food
Food
and Losing Isaiah. Some of my favorite
alltime movies. How that was Halib
Berry's person that was to me that was
her greatest acting ever was losing
Isaiah. I could do a whole I could do a
whole film just on lo I do a whole
podcast on just losing Isaiah if we ever
do something like that. The reason why
those two films to me are exactly where
we need to start before we start talking
about prescriptions on what men and
women or children or whoever needs to do this.
this.
Soul Food was so great because it was a
movie about a grandmother who would
always have her family coming around
each Sunday for for for lunch or dinner
and she would cook all this soul food
and gather her family and she was the
matriarch. Everybody will come to
grandma's house and a lot of people a
little bit older than me, my parents
generation and older, we used to talk
about how like, you know, how much
community they had and people would go
to people's homes and this person was
the cook and that was like a really
really big thing where everybody Sunday,
especially on Sundays to either their
mother's or their grandmother's home and
that was a thing
throughout the movie though obviously
for though and I'm going Spoil it.
Spoiler alert for those who never seen
it. Never saw that. Grandom's going to
get sick and she gets a limb
amputated. And that came about as a
result of the diet of the food that she was
was
cooking. And eventually when she got out
the hospital, she went right back to
eating and cooking the same stuff that
she was. And before you know it, grandma
didn't make it to the end of the movie.
And the family in honor of
grandma sought to continue the tradition
of cooking the very same thing that took
her from her family and was actually killing
killing
her. I would offer that as loving and as
caring and as as as good as grandom was
there, she was unknowingly doing things
that was not only harming her but
increasing the chances for there being
distance or her not being able to remain
with her family. Mhm. For many mothers
that are now older and and and well into
the years where their kids are adults or
their kids are having kids, they may
have unknowingly been doing certain
things, saying
treating their children in certain
patterns that being a loving mother with
good intentions felt right in the
moment. But if you're now experiencing
the consequences of those said choices,
now in the movie, she's losing limbs.
She's she's But in real
life, if if a it's highly unlikely that
a child that grows up in a healthy,
stable environment for the duration of
their childhood and doesn't have any
significant mental health diagnosible
conditions, drops off the map and wants
nothing to do with their parents. Highly
unlikely. Very rare actually. Very rare.
Disagree. I disagree with that, Jeff.
But go ahead. I'm g tell you it's highly
unlikely because and I'ming my words
very carefully what I'm saying. If
environment where they have and are
getting what they need from two parents,
two sources of influence. It's highly
unlikely unless there is a mental health
diagnosable reason for why this person
has detourred and started started
showing borderline personality
tendencies, showing bipolar tendencies,
showing narcissistic personality
tendencies. That's a diagnosible issue
that clearly could be radically distinct
from whether or not you had good parents
or not. So what I'm suggesting is unless
the person is exhibiting and showing
those type of traits and signs that a
licensed professional psychiatrist or
psychologist or clinician would be able
to better see more than likely they are
grandmom in soul food. They may be doing
things that everybody loves in the
moment that felt good that's bringing
everybody together and they may be
unaware of potential things that they
were doing or how they were moving. They
were doing it for the sake of love. They
were doing it. They were nurturing. They
were doing it because they thought they
were protecting their child.
They don't learn the consequences of
some of those choices until after their
child is old enough to be able to
articulate and finally be able to
respond to it. Mhm. In the black
community, many people when they get older
older
say a lot of black parents treat
feedback as disrespect.
Yeah, I've seen that. I've seen that.
That's I I I would put money on it that
it's most Yeah, I've seen that. I have
no problem with feedback. It's the way
that it's delivered. You can come and
you can come and express yourself. You
can come and tell me like m when I asked
you this, you said this and it was a
little harsh and I will check myself. I
have no problem doing that, but it's the
way I believe the feedback comes back.
So, you know, um I agree with I received
that and I agree with it, but I but I
will add this additional counterpoint
that doesn't negate what you said, but
I'll say this.
If a man was the constantly doing you
dirty and treating you wrong or not, you
know, holding up his end of the bargain
and it isn't or he he he he get caught
cheating for the fourth time, fifth
time. He keeps saying, "Babe, I'm going
to go get a job. Go get a job." And you
finally start to pull back. You finally
start to emotionally get detached and
you're no longer valuing the
relationship like you used to. Why is it
and women say this all the time. Why is
it that I finally start to not care and
I'm so angry that I finally ra Now he
want to change. Now he want to talk. Now
he want to Now he wants to do all the
things that I would have loved for him
to have provided the space and started
to do when I most valued and needed it.
That's a good point. Most black
moms aren't interested and open to
hearing that until their kids become adults.
adults.
Mhm. If you're waiting to hear about
what type of mother you were
only when your child became an
adult, don't be shocked if they've now
started to become more emotionally
detached where they've started put some
distance between you and them. Because
when because when they were a kid and
stuff is happening because we're not
perfect kids and we're not perfect
parents at all. Mhm. Why was it that we
only thought to provide the opportunity
to ever hear and get the performance
evaluation, hear about ourselves, hear
about the external audits when our kids
are adults. Mhm. Mhm. If you wait too
long to ever hear anything or welcome
feedback about hearing something you may
not want to have been
favorable, don't be shocked when you're
getting all of this push back, vitriol,
bitterness because the time period of
when you probably could have heard it in
a much more palatable
way when it was when it was happening
when they were younger when you could
have still done something about it in
the black community specific and I've
heard it in the Asian community. I've
heard it in the Hispanic community and
I've heard it in the black community. I
don't know enough about the white
community to say
right what mom says goes. I feel like in
the white community they their children
set a standard where they did tell their
parents how to feel in comparison to how
we are. But guess what? 80 80 probably
80% of my followers on Mom's True Tea
are white women that are experiencing
the same thing. Like just the idea that
we never even thought about the idea.
Well, I'm asking I'm
inquiring. I'm reaching out. Why aren't
they telling me or why this? Why that?
It could potentially be the guy who
waited too long to start to actually do
put the work in and actually receive the
feedback and actually actually start
talking and actually start sharing and
start making changes based on said
feedback, you're waiting too long. And
then when she finally leaves the
relationship or breaks up with you, now
you want to say, "I've changed.
I want to be different." So, as moms, if
we're not perfect and we're human like
everybody else, sometimes we have to
re-evaluate and wonder, did I wait too
long to actually be open to feedback?
And these are some questions when you
say, well, what do we do about it? I
have what's called a matern a
map, maternal assessment plan for moms.
These are a list of questions that you
may want to reflect on, process, and it
will better help you to open up the
possibility of understanding these
feelings and emotions that don't seem to
make sense why they're coming at you the
way that they are. Okay, that's fair. Do
I want to be a better person and mother
than I was before? For many moms, or
have I concluded that there's no room
for growth in this area of my life?
You you work out because you want to
improve on your health. You change your
diet because you want to improve on what
nutrients you're taking in your body.
But when did you decide? I want to be a
better mom than I was previously. And
who gets to help you do that more so
than the people who you are? Experienced you.
you.
Who is allowed to do a performance
evaluation of black women and mothers if
they're the matriarchs? If they're the
matriarchs where feedback is interpreted
as disrespect if you're a child, if
husbands are saying happy wife, happy life,
life,
which about moms or black women
specifically? Oh, it's cuz you hate your
black mother. It's cuz you don't respect
black women. Then who when does a self a
then where does the actual audit begin?
Have I unknowingly attached my
self-worth and value to feedback which
is might have been reluctant to ever
seek it? Mhm. But I think some moms do
and they wrap their whole identity up
and what value they have to their
children. I I definitely don't oppose
what you're saying and I think that's
where that self-reflection piece
definitely comes in. So, you're
absolutely right. Um I do believe that
some of us try to do different than our
parents by allowing our children to
express themselves far more than I
could. There was no talking back. There
was no expressing anything. I'm just
starting to share things with my mom now
because she's ready to receive them.
When I tried to share them with her
earlier on when I was a younger and I
think probably in my 30s, she was not
ready to receive any of that and it
ended up into a physical confrontation
because she was not ready to receive
that no matter how I was delivering it.
Now my mother's in a different space so
we can have conversations. if something
comes up, I say, "Well, mom, this is how
I experienced you growing up." And now
she's in his mental space to have those conversations. So, I don't disagree with
conversations. So, I don't disagree with what you're saying. But I also know that
what you're saying. But I also know that me being Gen X, coming from a boomer
me being Gen X, coming from a boomer parent where we had no voice, there was
parent where we had no voice, there was no talking back, there was no
no talking back, there was no expression. It was whatever I said, that
expression. It was whatever I said, that was just it. We tried to do different
was just it. We tried to do different with our children. We wanted them to
with our children. We wanted them to express themselves. Some of us, I always
express themselves. Some of us, I always say some of us, I can only speak for
say some of us, I can only speak for myself. I wanted my sons to be able to
myself. I wanted my sons to be able to express themselves to me. I wanted them
express themselves to me. I wanted them to be like, "Well, mom, damn, that was a
to be like, "Well, mom, damn, that was a little harsh." You know what I'm saying?
little harsh." You know what I'm saying? And I and then I do some
And I and then I do some self-reflection. And then times, even
self-reflection. And then times, even when they didn't call me out, if I feel
when they didn't call me out, if I feel like I may have responded to something
like I may have responded to something because I'm so overstimulated myself, I
because I'm so overstimulated myself, I would go back to them and say, "Hey,
would go back to them and say, "Hey, listen. The way I responded to that, it
listen. The way I responded to that, it wasn't right, and I apologize to you."
wasn't right, and I apologize to you." So, I've always held my own feet to the
So, I've always held my own feet to the fire as it relates to that. But yeah, I
fire as it relates to that. But yeah, I agree that it doesn't happen quite
agree that it doesn't happen quite often. But as I wrap up, final thoughts
often. But as I wrap up, final thoughts and I feel like we all need to heal.
and I feel like we all need to heal. It's never too late. I want my brothers
It's never too late. I want my brothers to stop putting all their misplaced rage
to stop putting all their misplaced rage on your mas. Be mad at the systems. I
on your mas. Be mad at the systems. I also feel like everybody wants somebody
also feel like everybody wants somebody to be accountable, but there's no
to be accountable, but there's no reflection of self. And I'm always like,
reflection of self. And I'm always like, okay, well, what are you going to be
okay, well, what are you going to be accountable for? So, I say all of that
accountable for? So, I say all of that to say, we all need to figure out a way
to say, we all need to figure out a way to heal collectively. We need to stop
to heal collectively. We need to stop building those walls because you felt
building those walls because you felt like you couldn't express yourself.
like you couldn't express yourself. There's just this wall that goes up in
There's just this wall that goes up in the br instead of a bridge for us all to
the br instead of a bridge for us all to cross. Um, you know, so first of all,
cross. Um, you know, so first of all, Jeff, thank you. I'm glad that you came
Jeff, thank you. I'm glad that you came on that we had this conversation. it. We
on that we had this conversation. it. We There's so many layers to this that we
There's so many layers to this that we definitely could unpack. I know the
definitely could unpack. I know the conversation may be uncomfortable for
conversation may be uncomfortable for some people, but I think it's really
some people, but I think it's really really good. And it just means that it's
really good. And it just means that it's time for us, like I said, to heal and to
time for us, like I said, to heal and to keep growing and to do the selfwork and
keep growing and to do the selfwork and unpack the pain that we've either caused
unpack the pain that we've either caused on ourselves or that has been put on us.
on ourselves or that has been put on us. We need to learn to love also without
We need to learn to love also without projection. We need to learn to respect
projection. We need to learn to respect without resentment from us too. So tell
without resentment from us too. So tell us a little bit about your podcast, when
us a little bit about your podcast, when you're getting started, if you haven't
you're getting started, if you haven't started, where it can be found or where
started, where it can be found or where it will be found and how people can find
it will be found and how people can find you on social media. Uh a thank you um
you on social media. Uh a thank you um uh Kendall for allowing me to do this
uh Kendall for allowing me to do this with you. This was not this is not an
with you. This was not this is not an easy topic. I know that there's going to
easy topic. I know that there's going to be people that's not going to like some
be people that's not going to like some of the things that I had to say. Um,
of the things that I had to say. Um, well, and I'm just both professionally
well, and I'm just both professionally as an and as a man just trying to show a
as an and as a man just trying to show a different lens or at least way of
different lens or at least way of looking at some of this stuff. Yeah. My
looking at some of this stuff. Yeah. My goal is actually not to beat up on women
goal is actually not to beat up on women or men specifically as much as it is to
or men specifically as much as it is to make it known each of us has our role to
make it known each of us has our role to play for how we got here and each of us
play for how we got here and each of us is going to have our role for how we
is going to have our role for how we going to get out of this. Agreed. Um,
going to get out of this. Agreed. Um, yeah. So, my pro uh podcast is Ask a
yeah. So, my pro uh podcast is Ask a Brother um podcast on Instagram. I just
Brother um podcast on Instagram. I just recently launched a page. Um, this is
recently launched a page. Um, this is the first like actual podcast I'm
the first like actual podcast I'm actually like doing with someone. Um,
actually like doing with someone. Um, eventually I'll be recording my own
eventually I'll be recording my own content as well and collaborating with
content as well and collaborating with other content creators. Um, and I
other content creators. Um, and I definitely welcome people to offer
definitely welcome people to offer particular topics they would like me or
particular topics they would like me or me and whoever I'm working with to
me and whoever I'm working with to collab on. Um, I'm my warning to moms
collab on. Um, I'm my warning to moms who have heard this and are thinking,
who have heard this and are thinking, you know what, I do need to try to do
you know what, I do need to try to do this with my kids, be mindful that not
this with my kids, be mindful that not all adult children or people in general
all adult children or people in general are mentally or emotionally mature
are mentally or emotionally mature enough for you to try to engage in a
enough for you to try to engage in a tough conversation with. They're just
tough conversation with. They're just not. Uh, so you kind of have to know
not. Uh, so you kind of have to know your kid to know if this is something
your kid to know if this is something you could even try to attempt to do with
you could even try to attempt to do with them because I don't want moms to be
them because I don't want moms to be verbally or emotionally abused. Um, I'm
verbally or emotionally abused. Um, I'm wanting them to be healed and whole and
wanting them to be healed and whole and better versions of themselves than they
better versions of themselves than they were 10, 20, 30 years ago. Um, it's one
were 10, 20, 30 years ago. Um, it's one thing to live in the past, but it's an
thing to live in the past, but it's an entirely different thing to never
entirely different thing to never acknowledge it. And that's really my
acknowledge it. And that's really my whole bread and butter as far as like a
whole bread and butter as far as like a psychonamic perspective. I want moms to
psychonamic perspective. I want moms to be more reflective and less reactive.
be more reflective and less reactive. Yeah, that's a good one. To be much more
Yeah, that's a good one. To be much more intentional about setting their feelings
intentional about setting their feelings and emotions aside when they're trying
and emotions aside when they're trying to have these potent potential types of
to have these potent potential types of combos. And my hope is that if you hear
combos. And my hope is that if you hear truth, you're going to cling to it even
truth, you're going to cling to it even if you think that it doesn't feel good
if you think that it doesn't feel good versus avoiding or pushing it away
versus avoiding or pushing it away because it makes you feel bad. Um, so
because it makes you feel bad. Um, so yeah, if you take if we take ownership,
yeah, if you take if we take ownership, men included, um, husbands, fathers, uh,
men included, um, husbands, fathers, uh, players, former players, former
players, former players, former strippers, former this, former that,
strippers, former this, former that, divorced, not never married, wherever we
divorced, not never married, wherever we are in the pecking order, we got to take
are in the pecking order, we got to take ownership for our past words and and and
ownership for our past words and and and actions, whether they've been good or
actions, whether they've been good or bad, respect the other party's
bad, respect the other party's boundaries. Um, avoid retaliatory
boundaries. Um, avoid retaliatory actions after they've told you their
actions after they've told you their experience or their truth. Mhm. And if
experience or their truth. Mhm. And if you do that, my belief is at least
you do that, my belief is at least you're going to be able to have peace
you're going to be able to have peace with your own conscience because you
with your own conscience because you came hands open, not baldled up, and and
came hands open, not baldled up, and and and you left you left the p you let the
and you left you left the p you let the chips fall where they may. And and I
chips fall where they may. And and I think that even if you thought, well, or
think that even if you thought, well, or they say you could have been a better
they say you could have been a better mom, you could be in a better
mom, you could be in a better grandmother. You could be a better
grandmother. You could be a better better uh godmother. You could be a
better uh godmother. You could be a better adult. Period. So, so just
better adult. Period. So, so just because the past is the past and we
because the past is the past and we can't change it doesn't mean we can't
can't change it doesn't mean we can't heal potentially reconcile and be better
heal potentially reconcile and be better versions of where we were back then. So,
versions of where we were back then. So, I appreciate Absolutely. Absolutely.
I appreciate Absolutely. Absolutely. Like I said, if this combo combo made
Like I said, if this combo combo made you feel uncomfortable in any way, good.
you feel uncomfortable in any way, good. That means it's time for us to grow.
That means it's time for us to grow. It's time for us to do the selfwork and
It's time for us to do the selfwork and to really learn to build bridges instead
to really learn to build bridges instead of walls. again. Jeff, thank you for
of walls. again. Jeff, thank you for joining mom shoot and I look forward to
joining mom shoot and I look forward to having this conversation again. All
having this conversation again. All right. Thank you so much for tuning in.
right. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm so blessed to have a community where
I'm so blessed to have a community where I can show up as my most authentic self
I can show up as my most authentic self because I don't know what else to be.
because I don't know what else to be. Don't forget to favorite the show, leave
Don't forget to favorite the show, leave a review, and subscribe to the podcast
a review, and subscribe to the podcast on your favorite streaming platforms to
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stay tuned for more thoughtprovoking topics and real talk on mom's true tea
topics and real talk on mom's true tea with Kendall. Until next time, remember
with Kendall. Until next time, remember you need you just as much as anyone
you need you just as much as anyone else. So stop playing about you. Okay,
else. So stop playing about you. Okay, bye.
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